Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

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Episode 62: Gene Kim on the Evolution of Product Operating Models in the World of AI

Jul 2, 2025

Guest

Gene Kim

Gene Kim, acclaimed author of The Phoenix Project and The Unicorn Project, explores Vibe Coding in a lively conversation. He highlights how letting AI assist in coding can supercharge productivity by tenfold. The talk dives into the structural challenges organizations face in embracing these advancements, discussing the FAFO model and the downfall of traditional monolithic systems. Real-world examples from industry giants like Adidas and Booking.com further illustrate the transformative potential of AI in the workplace.

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ANECDOTE

Breakthrough Pair Programming Session

Gene Kim learned vibe coding in a two-hour pair-programming session with Steve Yegge and it transformed his productivity.
He produced 4,176 lines of code in three days while editing his book and called it a life-changing experience.

insights

INSIGHT

FAFO: The Developer Productivity Multiplier

Vibe coding delivers FAFO: Faster, Ambitious, Fun, Optionality for developers.
It drastically lowers the cost of exploration and raises option value for teams.

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ADVICE

Treat AI Code Like A Risky Tool

Beware of new risks from AI: haunted codebases, deleted repos, and disabled tests are real hazards.
Modify inner, middle, and outer developer loops to prevent, detect, and correct AI-generated errors.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Vibe Coding and AI Revolution

01:44 • 12min

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AI and the Future of Developer Productivity

13:17 • 26min

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Structuring for Success: Team Dynamics and AI

39:13 • 6min

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Empowering Teams Through Modularity

44:49 • 8min

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Embracing Team Autonomy for Success

52:52 • 7min

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Navigating the Future of Product Operating Models in an AI-Driven World

01:00:03 • 4min

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#7354

• Mentioned in 5 episodes

Project to Product

Mik Kersten

#5746

• Mentioned in 6 episodes

Wiring the Winning Organization

• Mentioned in 28 episodes

scale

This sound

Jeffrey West

The novel centers on two Chinese American siblings on the lam after their sometimes abusive father dies, leaving them to survive in a dreamscape that blends historical and mythological elements. The story is narrated by a sister whose gender is more fluid and includes elements of ghost narratives, gold, and tigers. Zhang's work challenges the traditional white-centered narratives of the American West, incorporating elements of her own cultural background and childhood experiences.

#21016

• Mentioned in 2 episodes

Vibe Coding explores the transformative potential of AI in software development. Co-authored by Gene Kim and Steve Yegge, the book delves into how developers can leverage AI tools to achieve unprecedented productivity. It introduces practices for effectively using AI in coding, highlighting the importance of testing and feedback loops to ensure quality. The authors share insights on avoiding common pitfalls, like creating haunted codebases or context saturation, by establishing clear guidelines. The book aims to empower developers to tackle ambitious projects and explore design spaces they previously thought impossible. It also tackles the cultural shifts and new challenges that arise when integrating AI into the development workflow.

Output to Outcome

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Mik Kersten

Output to Outcome explores the shift from focusing on outputs to achieving measurable, scalable results in the age of AI. It builds on the principles introduced in 'Project to Product,' guiding organizations through the necessary transformations to thrive in this new era. The book delves into architectural shifts, leadership models, and organizational rewiring required to leverage AI effectively. It emphasizes the importance of outcome-based teams and modularity in achieving agility and innovation. Kersten presents a playbook for organizations seeking to navigate this shift successfully, ensuring that their efforts translate into tangible business value. The book equips leaders with insights to restructure their organizations, aligning them with the potential of AI to drive better outcomes.

#4379

• Mentioned in 8 episodes

The Unicorn Project

Gene Kim

The Unicorn Project is a fictionalized story about a DevOps transformation taking place at Parts Unlimited, the same company featured in 'The Phoenix Project'. The book follows Maxine, a senior lead developer and architect, who is exiled to the Phoenix Project after contributing to a payroll outage. She joins a group of corporate rebels aiming to overthrow the existing bureaucratic order, liberate developers, bring joy back to technology work, and enable the business to win in a time of digital disruption. The novel introduces the five ideals of Locality and Simplicity; Focus, Flow and Joy; Improvement of Daily Work; Psychological Safety; and Customer Focus, which are crucial for creating an environment that fosters business innovation and productivity.

#497

• Mentioned in 44 episodes

Working Backwards

Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon

Colin Bryar

Bill Carr

Working Backwards provides a detailed look at Amazon's approach to culture, leadership, and innovation. The book is written by Colin Bryar and Bill Carr, who collectively have 27 years of experience at Amazon. It outlines the company's 14 leadership principles and how they are applied in practice, focusing on customer obsession, long-term thinking, and operational excellence. The book is divided into two parts: the first part explains the leadership principles and practices, while the second part includes case studies on the development of products like Kindle, Amazon Prime, and Amazon Web Services. The authors provide practical steps and insights that can be applied to any business, regardless of size or industry.

#1343

• Mentioned in 22 episodes

The Phoenix project

Lambeth London Borough Council

In this novel, Gene Kim, Kevin Behr, and George Spafford tell the story of Bill, an IT manager at Parts Unlimited, who is tasked with turning around the company's failing IT department. The book delves into the challenges of IT management, the importance of DevOps practices, and how these practices can lead to significant improvements in efficiency, reliability, and customer satisfaction.

In this episode, Mik Kersten is joined by Gene Kim—author of The Phoenix Project and The Unicorn Project—for a deep dive into Vibe Coding, his upcoming book co-authored with Steve Yegge. Gene shares how learning to “vibe code”—where the developer supervises AI-generated code instead of writing it line by line—transformed his own productivity and reignited his passion for coding.

The conversation unpacks how AI-assisted development drives an unprecedented 10x increase in productivity—and why most organizations are structurally unprepared to take advantage of it. Mik and Gene explore the architectural shifts, leadership models, and organizational rewiring needed to thrive in this new era. From FAFO (Faster, Ambitious, Fun, Optionality) to the fall of monolithic systems, they cover it all.

Plus, they draw parallels between AI and past industrial revolutions, touch on real-world stories from Booking.com, Adidas, and the UK government, and preview Mik’s forthcoming book, Output to Outcomes, a playbook for organizations navigating the shift from outputs to measurable, scalable results in the age of AI.

Key discussions include:

How Mik’s upcoming book Output to Outcomes builds on Project to Product to guide organizations through this next transformation
Why traditional team structures and monolithic architectures are holding back the potential of AI
The FAFO model (Faster, Ambitious, Fun, Optionality) and what it means for developer experience
Lessons from Amazon, Booking.com, and the UK government on adopting GenAI at scale
Why modularity and outcome-based teams are essential for thriving in the age of AI

Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne

For more information about Gene Kim and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: Show Notes and Transcript.pdf

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