The glory that coexists in human life right alongside our weird propensity to choose what is not good for us; the difference between a place of sheer loss and a sacred space for mourning; grace as something muscular amidst the muck and mess of reality. These are some of the places of musing, sweeping perspective, and raw wisdom a conversation with Serene Jones takes us. And after hearing this, you’ll never think in the same way again about Woody Guthrie, or John Calvin, or what a Christian upbringing in Oklahoma might be.

Serene Jones serves as the 16th president — and the first female president — of Union Theological Seminary in New York City. She is a minister ordained in the Disciples of Christ and the United Church of Christ. Her books include Trauma and Grace: Theology in a Ruptured World, Feminist Theory and Christian Theology: Cartographies of Grace, and most recently, Call It Grace: Finding Meaning in a Fractured World.

This interview is edited and produced with music and other features in the On Being episode "Serene Jones — Grace in a Fractured World" Find the transcript for that show at onbeing.org.