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TDD, AI agents and coding with Kent Beck

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Jun 11, 2025

Guest

Kent Beck

Kent Beck, the visionary behind Extreme Programming and co-author of the Agile Manifesto, joins the conversation to discuss the intersection of coding and AI tools. He shares why he sees AI as an 'unpredictable genie' that can make programming more enjoyable yet complex. Kent reflects on the evolution of Agile methodologies and his transition away from emotional ties to specific programming languages. With anecdotes from his time at Facebook, he emphasizes the importance of flexibility and iterative learning in modern software development.

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Episode notes

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ANECDOTE

AI Coding as a Genie's Wish

Kent Beck compares AI coding tools to a genie that grants wishes imperfectly and unpredictably.
The genie sometimes produces surprising but helpful results or frustrating mistakes that require correction.

insights

INSIGHT

Languages Lose Emotional Grip

Kent lost emotional attachment to programming languages after many years' experience.
He now values practical expression over deep language loyalty or technical details such as memory layouts.

question_answer

ANECDOTE

TDD Roots and Emotional Impact

Kent Beck developed TDD inspired by childhood tape-to-tape programming experiments and a testing framework he created.
Writing tests before code transformed his programming anxiety into confidence and certainty.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Coding Adventures with AI

01:59 • 6min

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Navigating the Chaos of Agentic Coding Tools

08:26 • 9min

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Origins and Evolution of Agile Methodologies

17:42 • 22min

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Balancing TDD Practices and Architectural Design

40:01 • 4min

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Exploring Test-Driven Development and AI Integration

44:29 • 27min

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Navigating Engineering Challenges

01:11:06 • 4min

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Tidy Together

A Team Exercise in Empirical Software Design

Kent Beck

In 'Tidy Together', Kent Beck offers a framework for teams to enhance system design collaboratively. Building on ideas from 'Tidy First? ', the book focuses on balancing system behavior and structure changes, ensuring smoother development and effective collaboration. It emphasizes alternating between tidying and building, minimizing risk while maintaining momentum, and strengthening team relationships for sustainable system improvements.

Tidy First

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Kent Beck

Kent Beck's "Tidy First" emphasizes the importance of maintaining clean and well-organized code throughout the software development process. The book argues that prioritizing code tidiness leads to improved productivity, reduced bugs, and enhanced collaboration. Beck advocates for a proactive approach to code maintenance, suggesting that regular tidying prevents the accumulation of technical debt. He provides practical techniques and strategies for keeping code clean and organized, such as refactoring, automated testing, and pair programming. The book is a valuable resource for developers who want to improve their coding practices and build more maintainable software.

The Timeless Way of Building

Christopher Alexander

In this book, Christopher Alexander introduces the concept of the 'quality without a name,' arguing that this intangible quality is essential for creating buildings and spaces that feel right to human beings. The book is part of the Center for Environmental Structure series and lays the foundation for Alexander's subsequent works, including 'A Pattern Language' and 'The Oregon Experiment. ' It emphasizes the importance of aligning building design with the natural and human environment, rejecting mass-manufactured materials, and focusing on individual attention to detail in construction. The book is written in a unique style, often resembling prose poetry or religious scripture, and includes numerous full-page photo illustrations to support its arguments.

Crossing the Chasm

Geoffrey Moore

In 'Crossing the Chasm', Geoffrey A. Moore explores the Technology Adoption Life Cycle, which includes innovators, early adopters, early majority, late majority, and laggards. He highlights the significant gap or 'chasm' between early adopters and the early majority, where early adopters are willing to sacrifice for the advantage of being first, while the early majority waits for evidence of productivity improvements. The book provides strategies for narrowing this chasm, including choosing a target market, understanding the whole product concept, positioning the product, building a marketing strategy, and selecting the most appropriate distribution channels and pricing. The third edition includes new examples, strategies for digital marketing, and connections to Moore's subsequent works like 'Inside the Tornado'.

Supported by Our Partners

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Kent Beck is one of the most influential figures in modern software development. Creator of Extreme Programming (XP), co-author of The Agile Manifesto, and a pioneer of Test-Driven Development (TDD), he’s shaped how teams write, test, and think about code.

Now, with over five decades of programming experience, Kent is still pushing boundaries—this time with AI coding tools. In this episode of Pragmatic Engineer, I sit down with him to talk about what’s changed, what hasn’t, and why he’s more excited than ever to code.

In our conversation, we cover:

• Why Kent calls AI tools an “unpredictable genie”—and how he’s using them

• Why Kent no longer has an emotional attachment to any specific programming language

• The backstory of The Agile Manifesto—and why Kent resisted the word “agile”

• An overview of XP (Extreme Programming) and how Grady Booch played a role in the name

• Tape-to-tape experiments in Kent’s childhood that laid the groundwork for TDD

• Kent’s time at Facebook and how he adapted to its culture and use of feature flags

• And much more!

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Timestamps

(00:00) Intro

(02:27) What Kent has been up to since writing Tidy First

(06:05) Why AI tools are making coding more fun for Kent and why he compares it to a genie

(13:41) Why Kent says languages don’t matter anymore

(16:56) Kent’s current project building a small talk server

(17:51) How Kent got involved with The Agile Manifesto

(23:46) Gergely’s time at JP Morgan, and why Kent didn’t like the word ‘agile’

(26:25) An overview of “extreme programming” (XP)

(35:41) Kent’s childhood tape-to-tape experiments that inspired TDD

(42:11) Kent’s response to Ousterhout’s criticism of TDD

(50:05) Why Kent still uses TDD with his AI stack

(54:26) How Facebook operated in 2011

(1:04:10) Facebook in 2011 vs. 2017

(1:12:24) Rapid fire round

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The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:

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See the transcript and other references from the episode at ⁠⁠https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast⁠⁠

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