Interlude: Tired of Dying | When We All Get to Heaven

Nov 16, 2025

Rev. Jim Matulski, a longtime minister, reflects on the toll of the AIDS crisis through his poignant 1991 sermon. He explores his exhaustion and grief over the countless losses, connecting the congregation's avoidance of church services to communal sorrow. Matulski highlights Magic Johnson's HIV announcement and its impact on societal awareness of AIDS. The conversation culminates in a discussion on how shared grief can transform into collective action, emphasizing the need for empathy, support, and resilience in the face of loss.

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ANECDOTE

Letter That Named Collective Exhaustion

Jim Matulski recounts receiving a congregant's letter about avoiding church to escape hearing about deaths.
He describes realizing shared exhaustion and anger over continual losses in their community.

ANECDOTE

Airplane Talk And 'AIDS Consciousness'

Matulski shares his airplane conversation the day Magic Johnson announced his HIV status and his shock at public reactions.
He explains developing an 'AIDS consciousness' that makes him interpret much of what he hears through the epidemic.

INSIGHT

Jesus' Delay Mirrors Human Avoidance

Matulski reads John 11 to show Jesus also delayed and avoided confronting death.
He frames Jesus' delay as relatable fear of facing a loved one's death, not divine callousness.

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The Sunday after Magic Johnson announced his HIV-status, Jim Mitulski preached a sermon on being tired of people dying. We’re sharing it as an interlude, a pause, and an immersion into one moment in AIDS’ bleak midwinter.

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/interlude.

In the sermon Rev. Mitulski refers to ARC. That means AIDS-Related Complex, a diagnostic category meant to indicate an earlier stage of HIV infection than AIDS. It was common in the period to hear references to both AIDS and ARC.

“Old Devil Time” is by Pete Seeger. The AIDS verses are by MCC San Francisco congregant Paul Francis.

You can see Magic Johnson's press release, announcing his HIV status here.

The biblical passage Rev. Mitulski is preaching on is John 11:1-44.

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When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.

Some links to good groups:

AIDS Healthcare Foundation – provides medical care and support for people living with HIV/AIDS and preventative care for people at risk for contracting it.

The Magic Johnson Foundation – founded to address HIV/AIDS. Expanded to include education and community engagement.

San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.

POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).
Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.

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