A Note from James:

Sunny Ray is working on an incredible project involving Bitcoin and his company, Matador. They’re digitizing gold—turning it into crypto—and he’s a Bitcoin maximalist. That’s different from my stance: I think there are many crypto tokens that are useful for specific purposes. But Sonny’s view is clear—Bitcoin is the foundation.

We talk about what digital gold really means, why tokenization is so important, and how the biggest institutions in the world—like BlackRock—are embracing this shift. We also get into why exchanges are hard to use, the future of Ethereum, how gold works culturally in places like India, and why Matador is building its entire strategy on top of Bitcoin. This is a replay from a crypto call I recently held with subscribers.

If you have questions, ask me on Twitter: @jaltucher.

Episode Description:

In this episode, James talks with Sunny Ray, president of Matador, a public company digitizing gold using the Bitcoin blockchain. Sunny shares insights from his early days at Kraken and his experiences launching India’s first Bitcoin exchange, Unocoin. They cover the challenges of crypto adoption, the promise of tokenization, and how Bitcoin may be the most durable digital asset of our time.

This episode goes beyond the usual headlines—it’s a grounded, strategic look at where Bitcoin is heading, how real-world assets like gold are being brought on-chain, and what institutional moves (like BlackRock’s) mean for the next phase of crypto. Whether you’re a skeptic, a casual investor, or a hardcore maxi, this conversation offers real insight into the future of money.

What You’ll Learn:

Why tokenizing gold on Bitcoin may be the next major step in financial evolution
How Matador is using ordinals to link physical gold with blockchain data
Why Bitcoin's scarcity, transparency, and decentralization set it apart from Ethereum and other altcoins
What role India’s gold culture plays in global crypto adoption
How public companies are becoming Bitcoin treasury plays—and what that means for investors

Timestamped Chapters:

[00:00] Intro – Why this episode matters
[01:00] What is tokenization and why does it matter?
[03:00] Sunny Ray’s background: Kraken and Bitcoin since 2012
[06:00] Why gold is trusted globally—especially in India
[08:00] Gold vs. Bitcoin: Properties and potential
[11:00] The macro view: ETFs, government support, and regulation
[13:00] Ethereum’s origin and limits
[15:00] Why Bitcoin is regaining ground in the developer world
[17:00] NFTs and ordinals on Bitcoin
[20:00] Is tokenization finally crypto’s “killer app”?
[22:00] Bitcoin’s dominance and long-term strength
[25:00] Matador’s strategy vs. Solana-style plays
[29:00] How Matador’s digital gold product works
[33:00] The benefits of gold on-chain: 24/7 trading, fractional ownership
[35:00] Gold art, SAT inscriptions, and Defi integration
[38:00] BlackRock, tokenized treasuries, and democratizing finance
[40:00] Why tokenization could outpace ETFs and traditional finance
[44:00] India’s crypto readiness and female tech adoption
[46:00] James challenges Sunny’s Bitcoin maximalism
[49:00] The mythology of Satoshi and Bitcoin’s uniqueness
[51:00] What else could be tokenized? Real estate, metals, stocks
[52:00] Trump, RFK, and the US crypto policy shift
[55:00] Final predictions – $3M to $50M Bitcoin?

Additional Resources:

Matador Public Company – Official company site
Ticker: MATAF (U.S. OTC listing)
Bitcoin Whitepaper (original)
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/james

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