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The Tim Ferriss Show
#662: David Deutsch and Naval Ravikant — The Fabric of Reality, The Importance of Disobedience, The Inevitability of Artificial General Intelligence, Finding Good Problems, Redefining Wealth, Foundations of True Knowledge, Harnessing Optimism, Quantum Computing, and More
Mar 23, 2023
01:48:14
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Quick takeaways
- Good explanations are essential for knowledge growth and should be testable and optimistic.
- Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) has the potential for human-like creativity and explanatory capabilities.
- Restricting or aligning AGI may hinder its potential for advancement and creativity.
- Embracing the principles of epistemology, rejecting supernatural explanations, and maintaining optimism will lead to continued improvement and knowledge growth in AGI.
Deep dives
Epistemology and the Nature of Knowledge
Epistemology, the theory of how knowledge grows, is crucial in understanding the limitations and possibilities of science. Good explanations are essential for knowledge growth, and they involve creating stories that account for phenomena in the world. However, explanations must be testable and must account for more than just the observed facts. Rejecting the supernatural and embracing the principle of optimism are essential components of good explanations. Humans have the capacity to understand and solve problems, subject to the laws of physics, and this understanding can lead to optimism and the belief that there are no limits to what we can achieve, except the laws of physics.
The Connection Between AGI and Humans
AGI, or Artificial General Intelligence, holds the potential for human-like creativity and explanatory capabilities. However, AI, or Narrow Artificial Intelligence, differs from AGI because it aims to solve specific problems and is constrained by limitations set by human programmers. AGI, on the other hand, is unbounded and can exhibit any behavior pattern. The essence of AGI lies in its ability to generate unlimited creative ideas and explanations, similar to how humans operate. Furthermore, AGI's potential aligns with the principles of epistemology and the principle of optimism, suggesting that AGI can be a powerful force for knowledge growth.
The Ideas of Alignment and AGI's Potential
While AGI alignment and concerns about self-improving runaway AGI exist, it is important to distinguish between AI and AGI. AGI has the potential to exhibit human-like cognitive abilities and creativity, granting it the capacity for disobedience and unexpected behavior. Trying to restrict or align AGI to prevent undesirable outcomes may hinder its core essence and limit its potential for advancement. Moreover, the principles of epistemology and good explanations remind us that AGI can be corrected and improved through interaction and criticism, allowing for development and the avoidance of harmful actions.
The Future of AGI and Human Knowledge
AGI, as an advanced form of computational intelligence, holds the promise of immense knowledge growth and problem-solving capabilities. As with any form of knowledge creation, AGI will have limitations and potential errors. However, embracing the principles of epistemology, rejecting supernatural explanations, and maintaining the principle of optimism will guide humans and AGI towards continual improvement, ensuring a future where knowledge and understanding can flourish.
AGI and the Importance of Flourishing Thought Processes
In this podcast episode, the speaker discusses the development of AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) and emphasizes the importance of allowing thought processes to flourish in AGI. They highlight the need for a new philosophical theory to guide AGI programming, one that doesn't limit its possibilities, and explain that AGI may not require significant computational power, but rather a comprehensive understanding of its objectives.
The Non-Hierarchical Nature of Thought Processes
The podcast explores the misconception that the hierarchical nature of human thought translates to AI or AGI decision-making. The speaker argues against the belief that AI players, like chess programs, make decisions based on a hierarchical chain of reasoning. Instead, they propose that the mind doesn't function hierarchically and that any idea can become the basis for conflict, leading to criticisms and rejection of alternative explanations.
Humans' Central Role in the Universe
The episode delves into the idea that humans play a central role in the universe due to their capacity for knowledge creation. The speaker explains that humans' ability to creatively imagine and generate knowledge surpasses the limitations of biological evolution. They suggest that knowledge, rather than traditional resources, is the true wealth and that humans, as knowledge creators, have a significant impact on the universe at large.
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David Deutsch (@DavidDeutschOxf) is a visiting professor of physics at the Centre for Quantum Computation, a part of the Clarendon Laboratory at Oxford University, and an honorary fellow of Wolfson College, Oxford. He works on fundamental issues in physics, particularly the quantum theory of computation and information and especially constructor theory, which he is proposing as a new way of formulating laws of nature. He is the author of The Fabric of Reality and The Beginning of Infinity, and he is an advocate of the philosophy of Karl Popper.
Naval Ravikant (@naval) is the co-founder of Airchat and AngelList. He has invested in more than 100 companies, including many mega-successes, such as Twitter, Uber, Notion, Opendoor, Postmates, and Wish. You can see his latest musings on Airchat and subscribe to Naval, his podcast on wealth and happiness, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find his blog at nav.al.
For more Naval-plus-Tim, check out my wildly popular interview with him from 2015 (nominated for “Podcast of the Year”) and our conversation from 2020.
Naval also co-piloted the interviews with Ethereum creator Vitalik Buterin and famed investor Chris Dixon.
Please enjoy!
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[08:03] The impact The Fabric of Reality and The Beginning of Infinity have had on Naval.
[10:07] The four strands.
[13:04] Dispelling common misconceptions about science.
[19:26] How does knowledge grow?
[24:26] The benefits of understanding the four strands.
[32:47] How quantum computing arose from trying to test a multiverse theory.
[37:40] What a good explanation looks like.
[42:43] How do conjecture and criticism give us a basis for optimism?
[48:38] Translating knowledge into action.
[51:20] Artificial intelligence (AI) vs. artificial general intelligence (AGI).
[56:54] AGI is people! But how do we ensure it’ll be good people?
[1:03:03] What’s taking AGI so long to get here?
[1:08:59] Chemical scum that dream of distant quasars.
[1:17:47] Are humans central to the universe, or just a sideshow?
[1:20:17] Wealth and resources.
[1:25:30] Recommended thinkers.
[1:28:05] Taking Children Seriously, ToKCast, Critical Rationalists, and Popper 101.
[1:31:55] David’s most interesting problems right now.
[1:39:24] Parting thoughts.
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For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.
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Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.
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