Less Complexity, More Clarity

2min Snip

00:00

Play full episode

Summary

Transcript

Episode notes

Complexity in policymaking often results from the continuous addition of laws and regulations, which can ultimately hinder positive outcomes. Lawmakers frequently feel pressured to create new policies without considering the cumulative effect of existing ones. An example from California reveals that an experienced legislator has recognized that the proliferation of laws does not lead to better results. Instead, simplifying and deleting unnecessary policies could benefit constituents more effectively. The challenge lies in balancing stakeholder interests while advocating for clarity and efficiency in legislation, as eliminating certain complexities may lead to better overall outcomes for the affected populations.

In this episode of Complex Systems, Patrick McKenzie (aka @Patio11) is joined by Dave Guarino, a software engineer and policy wonk. They explore the complexities and challenges of public programs, focusing on SNAP aka CalFresh in California, where Dave was the founding engineer and then director. They discuss how society’s complex preferences become policy, driving obviously bad UXes (like 200+ questions for an application) for structural reasons. Patrick and Dave debate structural issues within government agencies that lead to these inefficiencies, the lack of user-centric design, misaligned incentives, a “cavernous gap” in feedback loops, and surprisingly simple ways anyone can influence public policy and improve government systems.

–

Full transcript available here: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/government-software-dave-guarino/

–

Sponsors: Check | WorkOS

Check is the leading payroll infrastructure provider and pioneer of embedded payroll. Check makes it easy for any SaaS platform to build a payroll business, and already powers 60+ popular platforms. Head to checkhq.com/complex and tell them patio11 sent you.

Building an enterprise-ready SaaS app? WorkOS has got you covered with easy-to-integrate APIs for SAML, SCIM, and more. Start now at https://bit.ly/WorkOS-Turpentine-Network

–

Links:

Dave Guarino's newsletter: https://daveguarino.substack.com/

Dan Davies episode of Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Mos4VE3figVXleHDqfXOH

–

Twitter:

@patio11

@allafarce

–

Timestamps:

(00:00) Intro

(01:03) Complexity of naming government programs

(03:45) How policy decisions are made

(07:19) Why SNAP applications are so complex

(14:17) Why no one stops overly complex applications

(18:44) Political economy of different benefit programs

(24:56) Sponsor: Check | WorkOS

(26:13) Limited visibility into user experience

(29:24) Lack of application completion rate tracking

(35:27) Starting where you are

(43:44) Challenges of modernizing legacy systems

(48:35) Broken feedback loops in government

(53:01) Tech's understanding of service design

(57:07) Issues with improper payments methodology

(1:04:45) Effective ways to influence policy

(1:09:43) Increasing agency in government agencies

(1:14:56) Getting niche policy ideas into circulation

(1:18:04) Importance of frontline knowledge and user feedback

(1:21:33) Improving government services

(1:22:06) Wrap

–

Complex Systems is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Turpentine also has a social network for top founders and execs: https://www.turpentinenetwork.com/