Output vs Outcomes in Feature Teams and Product Teams

Marty Cagan is a luminary in the world of product. He’s the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams and product leaders (Inspired and Empowered), he’s the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of the longest-running product advisory groups), and he’s almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he’s releasing his newest book, Transformed, which is sure to become a staple of tech-powered companies worldwide. Marty’s previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss:

• The rise of “product management theater”

• Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions

• The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice

• How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry

• The most important skills for PMs to build

• How to know if you’re on a “feature team”

• The potential disruption of product management by AI

• Marty’s new book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model

• Four new competencies required for successful product organizations

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty

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Where to find Marty Cagan:

• X: https://twitter.com/cagan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/

• Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.svpg.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Marty’s background

(04:46) His take on the state of product management

(12:08) Product management theater

(18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams

(24:48) Skills of a real product manager

(29:27) The product management reckoning is here

(32:05) Taking control of your product management career

(34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice

(40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community

(44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures

(47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era

(49:44) The changing landscape of product management

(52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI

(55:56) The purpose and content of Marty’s new book, Transformed

(01:02:05) The product operating model

(01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams

(01:11:25) Marty’s thoughts on product ops

(01:15:13) Advice for founders who don’t want product managers

(01:18:06) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model: https://www.amazon.com/Transformed-Becoming-Product-Driven-Company-Silicon/dp/1119697336

• Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507

• Empowered: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products: https://www.amazon.com/EMPOWERED-Ordinary-Extraordinary-Products-Silicon/dp/111969129X

• The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/

• Product Leadership Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-leadership-theater/

• Product Management Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-management-theater/

• Linear: https://linear.app/

• How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product

• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/brian-cheskys-new-playbook/

• Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be coders, Jensen Huang warns: https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/27/jensen_huang_coders/

• Epic Waste: https://www.svpg.com/epic-waste/

• What is scrum and how to get started: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum

• CSPO: https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/product-owner-track/certified-scrum-product-owner

• PSPO: https://www.scrum.org/courses/professional-scrum-product-owner-training

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Continuous Discovery Habits: Discover Products That Create Customer Value and Business Value: https://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Discovery-Habits-Discover-Products/dp/1736633309

• Shreyas Doshi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreyasdoshi/

• Ben Erez’s LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7168978777966891008/

• Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/

• The essence of product management | Christian Idiodi (SVPG): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-essence-of-product-management-christian-idiodi-svpg/

• Making Meta | Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto/

• Building a long and meaningful career | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career-nikhyl-singhal-meta-google/

• Partners at SVPG: https://www.svpg.com/team/

• Trainline: https://www.thetrainline.com/

• Almosafer: https://global.almosafer.com/

• Expedia: https://www.expedia.com/

• Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• The ultimate guide to product operations | Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-operations-melissa-perri-and-denise-tilles/

• Understanding the role of product ops | Christine Itwaru (Pendo): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/understanding-the-role-of-product-ops-christine-itwaru-pendo/

• Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067

• What’s Our Problem?: A Self-Help Book for Societies: https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Our-Problem-Self-Help-Societies/dp/B0BVGH6T1Q

• Rivian: https://rivian.com/

• AI-1 airbag vest: https://www.klim.com/Ai-1-Airbag-Vest-3046-000

• Leslie Lamport’s quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/3702194/Leslie-Lamport-If-you-re-thinking-without-writing-you-only-think-you-re-thinking

• Joan Didion’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/264509-i-don-t-know-what-i-think-until-i-write-it

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

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