Science of Reading: The Podcast

Dr. Reid Lyon is one of the leading experts in reading research. After years working for and with the highest levels of the U.S. government, Dr. Lyon stepped away from his reading research. But in May 2023, Dr. Lyon released his "Ten Maxims: What We've Learned So Far About How Children Learn to Read." And of course Susan jumped at the chance to invite him onto the podcast. In a wide-reaching interview, Dr. Lyon traces his life story from the Vietnam War to the National Institute of Health. He also offers an expansive overview of what we know about teaching reading, how children learn—including a discussion of whole language vs. phonics—and his response to educators wondering what reading actually is and what methodology of teaching students to read is most effective. Be on the lookout for Part 2 of our interview with Dr. Reid Lyon, being released next week.Show notes:Dr. Reid Lyon: “Ten Maxims: What We've Learned So Far About How Children Learn to Read”Keith Rayner’s research: “Eye movements in reading and information processing: 20 years of research”Marilyn Adams: Beginning to ReadSusan Brady:  Phonological Processes in Literacy Emily Hanford: “Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong”Quotes:“Phonics—that is, looking at letters, letter patterns, learning how to bring sound to associate to those letters—is absolutely essential, non-negotiable. It has to be learned. But it in no way is sufficient to be able to comprehend, which is the goal of reading.” —Dr. Reid Lyon“Reading is a complex behavior subserved by multiple systems in the brain that integrate and inform each other.” —Dr. Reid Lyon“It’s a symphony of neural activity that undergirds this very complex behavior of just learning how to read. So when people boil reading down into phonics or whole language, it’s just a false characterization.” —Dr. Reid Lyon“People somehow conflated this natural ability of oral language to develop—just expose kids, just shower them with language—to reading. And reading is by no means natural. It has to be taught. It does not reside in the brain systems.” —Dr. Reid Lyon“We’re hampered by the teacher-knowledge issue. That’s not a teacher’s fault. That’s a college of education system that is bereft of responsibility. It operates on philosophical foundations. It operates on belief systems. It’s very politicized. It looks at reading as a right, which it is. But it doesn’t look at the instruction of reading as methodology—strategies, direct and comprehensive programs that can help most kids learn to read.” —Dr. Reid Lyon

With a background as a classroom teacher, a master's in educational neuroscience, and a doctorate in special education, Dr. Neena Saha has seen all facets of education. In her work, she noticed a gap in the research-to-practice workflow for early literacy and dedicated herself to streamlining the process of finding and disseminating the best educational research for educators. Together, Susan Lambert and Neena discuss the need for reading researchers to work together and collaborate in a more focused and concerted group effort, the challenges of implementation, and how educators can best keep up with research that often feels overwhelming.Show notes:Listen: Our recent episode with Claude GoldenbergRead: Neena’s monthly reading research updateWatch: Neena’s July video about a Bayesian network meta-analysisWatch: Celebrating the Legacy of Dr. Bud RoseWebsite: Center for Research Use in EducationRead: “Survey of Evidence in Education for Schools Descriptive Report”Read: “The Book of Why: The New Science of Cause and Effect” by Judea PearlRead: Reading Research Recap—If you want to start receiving monthly notifications for this series, please register or sign in to your Lexile & Quantile Hub account and join the Reading Research mailing list.Quotes:"What I did was focus really on dissemination, right? Getting rid of that hurdle of, you know, there's so many journals out there." —Dr. Neena Saha"You have to look at the full body, you're like cherry picking stuff if you're going to social media and the person with the biggest megaphone wins or whoever has the most interesting way of presenting it." —Dr. Neena Saha"We need a more concerted effort. There needs to be a bunch of researchers that come together and hash it out. It can't just be single ones here and there." —Dr. Neena Saha"Teachers or educators out there right now, when you're feeling overwhelmed and you can't figure out how to find the evidence, or some evidence, guess what? We're affirming for you that there's no easy way to do it...this is more of a systemic problem." —Dr. Neena Saha"It's not enough to do the science. You have to make sure it gets out there." —Dr. Neena Saha

Former NFL player turned literacy advocate and children's book author, Malcolm Mitchell, shares his journey of learning to love reading and advocating for literacy. He discusses the importance of cultural connection, access to books, and community building. Mitchell emphasizes the value of reading as an empowering tool and highlights the need for students to understand its true 'why' to be motivated. His journey from football to phonics and founding a literacy foundation is an inspiring testimony to overcoming barriers and creating opportunities through reading.

Here to continue our discussion on dyslexia from earlier episodes in the season is an all-time leading expert on the topic: Dr. Sally Shaywitz, Co-founder and Co-director of the Yale Center for Dyslexia and Creativity. This literacy legend shares how she came to study dyslexia, the story of her seminal Connecticut Longitudinal Study, and all she's learned from her years of dyslexia research. Shaywitz will cover some of the biggest myths about dyslexia and also explain the "sea of strengths" possessed by people with dyslexia.Show notes:Book: Overcoming DyslexiaCoursera: Overcoming Dyslexia https://www.coursera.org/learn/dyslexiaNew York Times story: The Couple Who Helped Decode DyslexiaYale Center for Dyslexia: websiteQuotes:"It's so important to screen, to learn early that you may be at risk and then to follow up with more testing that may confirm you're dyslexic. When you have something, but it doesn't have a name, it leads to anxiety." —Dr. Sally Shaywitz"There are so many people who are slow readers who are brilliant thinkers. That's our 'sea of strengths' model." —Dr. Sally Shaywitz"We are so genetically driven to speak ... but we're not genetically driven to read." —Dr. Sally Shaywitz

When it comes to literacy education and cross-domain learning, it’s critical to understand the relationship between reading and writing. In this episode, Susan talks to Steve Graham all about writing—and how it can be used to strengthen literacy. Graham served as chair of the What Works Clearinghouse Practice Guides on elementary and secondary writing, and is the current Regents and Warner Professor at Arizona State University. Together, he and Susan discuss ways to support student writing, hindrances to writing development, the importance of teaching handwriting skills, and why writing is essential to any literacy program.Show Notes: What Works Clearinghouse: “Teaching Elementary School Students To Be Effective Writers”Meta-analysis: “The Effects of Writing on Learning in Science, Social Studies, and Mathematics: A Meta-Analysis”Book: Handbook of Writing ResearchArizona State University: ProfileQuotes:“Our development as writers might be something that you can think of as open-ended…it can expand ever outward.” —Steve Graham“Handwriting gets better, spelling gets better…students become better at constructing sentences in their writing. They tend to generate more content, and the quality of their writing may improve as well.” —Steve Graham“Any kid who has trouble with handwriting [or] spelling usually dislikes writing much more than their peers that do not have those difficulties, and they typically don't produce as much. And what they produce usually is just not as coherent or well connected.” —Steve Graham“What we see with exceptional teachers is they have their kids write. And at least through grades one to six, when students write, the quality of their writing gets better and their reading comprehension gets better.” —Steve Graham“Kids need to write, they need to write for a variety of purposes. And they also need to write for real reasons, for real audiences.” —Steve Graham“We want to create a community in which kids can thrive as writers and take risks.” —Steve Graham“We want to make sure that we're using reading and writing for the functional purposes of learning, because they make a huge difference. They're really the basic building blocks around which we acquire and understand information.” —Steve Graham

When we surveyed listeners, more than half of respondents said they wanted more conversations about teaching students with dyslexia! With that in mind, in this episode Susan is joined by Dr. Tim Odegard from Middle Tennessee State University. Odegard is a professor of psychology and holds the Katherine Davis Murfree Chair of Excellence in Dyslexic Studies. As someone with dyslexia himself, Odegard brings a unique perspective to this discussion where they debunk the idea of "the gift of dyslexia," discuss neurodiversity and talk about what needs to be done to change the system.Show notes:Dr. Tim Odegard’s Twitter: @OdegardTimTennessee Center for the Study and Treatment of DyslexiaE-books from the Center for Dyslexia at Middle Tennessee State UniversityQuotes:“It's not easy, but life isn't easy and it's not fair and you don't get to write the rules. But how you play the game and how you persist is what defines you as a human being.” —Tim Odegard“Sure. You can turn lemons into lemonade, but all they're saying ism that it's a gift because you find a way to persevere, and any hardship could be that way, but when you're in the thick of it and you're actually living it, and you're just trying to get the ability to do your work and not feel like you're stupid. That's not a gift.” —Tim Odegard“We need to change the dialogue and say, this is about what's right for all kids. And this isn't about just dyslexia, that’s the byproduct of doing what's right for all children.” —Tim Odegard

From reading street signs and menus to checking the weather, and using a ruler, there are so many examples of how a student's math and literacy adventure continues beyond the classroom. That's why we're sharing another bonus episode—this time from our friends at Math Teacher Lounge, to show the connection between math and children's literature.In this episode, Mathematizing Children's Literature authors Allison Hintz and Antony Smith join Math Teacher Lounge hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer to discuss what would happen if we were to approach children's literature, and life, through a math lens, and how we can apply those techniques to classroom teaching.Show notes:Dr. Hintz’s Twitter: @allisonhintz124Dr. Smith’s Twitter: @smithant  Dr. Hintz and Dr. Smith’s Instagram: @MathematizeChildrensLiteratureQuotes:“We started asking ourselves what would happen if we considered any story a chance to engage as mathematical sensemakers.” —Allison Hintz“We think of stories as mirrors or windows. We really want to be mindful of story selection, of whose stories are told and whose stories are heard.”—Allison Hintz “Modeling what I, as a teacher, notice or wonder about helps set the expectation for what kind of response would be encouraged.” —Antony Smith

In this episode, we take on the difficult topic of literacy education in the American juvenile justice system. Susan is joined by Hilderbrand Pelzer III, who discusses his experience as an educational leader in the Philadelphia prison system. Pelzer talks about what he saw and learned—and explains why he advocates for aspiring teachers to work with incarcerated youth. This passionate and moving discussion breaks down the myths surrounding literacy's relationship with juvenile incarceration and also leaves listeners with advice on how to become more involved in their own communities.Show notes:Hilderbrand Pelzer III's FacebookHilderbrand Pelzer III's LinkedInHilderbrand Pelzer III's Intragram: @hilderbrandpelzer3Hilderbrand Pelzer III"s Twitter: @HP3PotentialWebsite: www.hilderbrandpelzer3.comBook: “Unlocking Potential: Organizing a School Inside a Prison” by Hilderbrand Pelzer IIIHilderbrand's Tedx Talk: What incarcerated youth can teach teachersBook: “The Unspoken Truth and Life Story” by Keenan HudsonQuotes:“Once we have our understanding and expectations, what are the opportunities we are going to put in place to help them thrive? It’s as simple as that. Expectations and opportunities.” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III“Teacher preparation training should be [taking place] inside correctional settings. Why? Because inside correctional settings, you will see all the challenges that we talk about… [the teachers] will not run away from challenges. They will be able to understand, navigate, and already have a plan of action to help.” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III“These are real stories about children living their [lives] unable to read. It’s not data. They’re telling you they’re in a situation of incarceration and they’ve figured that their life is over as a result of not being taught in school.” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III“I said, ‘Well, I’m gonna be at the Philadelphia prison system,’ and he looked at me like my career was dead...not knowing that my career started in juvenile prisons. Going from this to that [felt] like, ‘I’m about to do something extraordinary.’” —Hilderbrand Pelzer III

We’re excited to share a special episode from our friends at the Science Connections podcast!Literacy learning doesn’t end when a student leaves their English class; it continues to develop, grow and be challenged across all subject domains. In this episode, we’re excited to share a special episode from our friends at the Science Connections podcast. In this episode, host Eric Cross sits down with Susan Gomez Zwiep, former middle school science teacher and senior science educator at BSCS Science Learning. She shares research that shows the benefits of integrating science and literacy strategies, tips for applying these ideas in the classroom, and what she’s learned through her own experiences.Show notes:Listen to more Science Connections episodesDr. Susan Gomez Zwiep’s BSCS profile, link: bit.ly/SC-zwiep-profile  Inquiry Science: The Gateway to English Language Proficiency, link: bit.ly/SC-zwiep-researchTwitter: @SusanGomezZwiep Study guide (episode 2)Quotes:"If we wait until students develop English proficiency to allow them access to quality learning, we've lost a tremendous number of students that could not only benefit from science, we could benefit from their entering this science conversation." —Susan Gomez Zwiep"When kids were excited about this thing in a Ziploc bag, they didn't care. They communicated however they could—sometimes in their primary language or in their home language, sometimes in imperfect English ...but you and large, they just communicated." —Susan Gomez Zwiep"This expansion of language including non standard dialects and even home language, is really important for letting students bring their whole selves into the classroom.""...The kids were coming into the office and had transitioned to communicating in English, especially when they wanted to talk about science, and they really wanted to talk about science, 'cause they were super excited about the stuff that they were learning." —Susan Gomez Zwiep

Susan interviews Danielle "Nell" Thompson, literacy multi-hyphenate and the creator of the Big Sky Literacy Summit. This August, the summit returns with a star-studded lineup of mentors, sages, teachers, and leaders, and in this episode, Nell shares how her own background—working with students in Alaska and Mississippi, among many other places—has helped shape this year's conference theme. She and Susan discuss the importance of mentorship in advancing evidence-based literacy practice and literacy instruction.Show notes:Website: Big Sky Literacy SummitTwitter: The Transformative Reading Teacher GroupDanielle Thompson's Twitter:  @Nelliet11Danielle Thompsons's LinkedIn: @Danielle Nell ThompsonBook: From Strength to Strength: Finding Success, Happiness, and Deep Purpose in the Second Half of LifeQuote:I was feeling like the numbers were too great and that the systems were broken. … If I could build better systems, I could also support the educators' success within those systems." —Dr. Danielle "Nell" Thompson