

The Power of Music Thinking
Christof Zürn
What can the dynamics of music teach us about navigating today’s complex world? The Power of Music Thinking podcast dives deep into this potent analogy.
Host Christof Zürn, founder of MusicThinking.com, explores how concepts like listening, tuning, rhythm, and improvisation translate into powerful tools for business, creativity, and leadership.Through engaging interviews with global thought leaders, designers, entrepreneurs, and artists, discover practical ways to improve collaboration, spark innovation, and lead teams more effectively. Learn how to listen differently, find your team’s rhythm, and embrace improvisation in the face of uncertainty. And there are special episodes around a theme or experiment.For anyone fascinated by the intersection of creativity, strategy, and human dynamics – subscribe to The Power of Music Thinking.
Host Christof Zürn, founder of MusicThinking.com, explores how concepts like listening, tuning, rhythm, and improvisation translate into powerful tools for business, creativity, and leadership.Through engaging interviews with global thought leaders, designers, entrepreneurs, and artists, discover practical ways to improve collaboration, spark innovation, and lead teams more effectively. Learn how to listen differently, find your team’s rhythm, and embrace improvisation in the face of uncertainty. And there are special episodes around a theme or experiment.For anyone fascinated by the intersection of creativity, strategy, and human dynamics – subscribe to The Power of Music Thinking.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Jan 3, 2023 • 46min
Are you a polymath? With Barbara Kleeb
In The Power of Music Thinking podcast, we have conversations with exciting people that are also musicians. They see analogies between music and the areas they are working. So what they do is combine knowledge and skills from multiple fields to make significant contributions to various areas.
In The Power of Music Thinking book, I call them the AND-musician. I talk about this, especially in the Backstage chapter, where we dive into analogies to switch from one field to the other, like: Black is to white as off is to on. Or, conducting is to classical music as producing is to hip hop.
But there is another expression for this: polymath. Think about people like Leonardo Da Vinci, Hildegard von Bingen, or any guest on this programme. All of them are masters in different fields.
So today, I speak with Barbara Kleeb, a trained photographer, a doctor of medicine, a leadership coach for polymaths AND-muscian.
We speak about her personal journey, how studying multiple approaches leads to openmindedness and that every team or board should have at least one generalist to understand and connect different perspectives. And Barabara shares with us a tool she uses in her coaching practice: Ikigai.
We also learn, for example, that most UX designers are polymaths, which resonated with me a lot, being in UX and service design positions in different companies.
Shownotes:
Connect with Barbara on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-barbara-kleeb
Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/3PnZvP1WfY3Cg1iTQcoCm6?si=ejzISnZqSrWVZaOLGq6Ilg
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBAxXugXGp8Mw9B--WMDnw/featured
The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialised in facilitating leaders, teams and organisations in customer experience, change and innovation. Check out their website
Do you like books?
Check out the new book: The Power of Music Thinking and get stories, explanations and exercises to apply music thinking. Buy The Power of Music Thinking
More like this
Please subscribe to the podcast and listen to the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking.

Dec 14, 2022 • 54min
Every Noise at Once with Glenn McDonald
Well it's this time of the year. And I am not talking about the countdown until Christmas and the holiday. I am also not talking about ‘the word of the year’, or any other review compiled and curated by air quote “specialists”. I am talking about you, or better about your data, or even more close about your musical behaviour, taste and most played songs. Yes, it is the time when all Spotify users get their personal wrap-up of the year.
But this episode is not about the making of the wrap-up. This episode is about musical genre types, technology and research with musical behaviour.
My guest today is Glenn McDonald, Data Alchemist of Spotify and founder, programmer and producer of the Every Noise at Once website, which holds and updates examples from all genre types Spotify is tracking.
We talk about personal music algorithms, genre categorisation, subsets of listening, what you can learn from listening data, and how listening behaviour shapes communities that can be the start of a new genre.
Glenn shares with us how he compiled playlists on his Spotify account and a memorable sonic experience when he heard the band Low for the first time live ‘opening up a door’ to a transformational moment.
Shownotes:
Website Every Noise at Once: everynoise.com
Glenn McDonald personal site: furia.com
Twitter: @glenn_mcdonald
The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialised in facilitating leaders, teams and organisations in customer experience, change and innovation. Check out their website.
Do you like books?
Check out the new book: The Power of Music Thinking and get stories, explanations and exercises to apply music thinking. Buy The Power of Music Thinking
More like this
Please subscribe to the podcast and listen to the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking.

Nov 9, 2022 • 44min
Gender equality with Gabriella Di Laccio
My guest today is Gabriella Di Laccio, public speaker, curator, activist, award-winning soprano and recording artist. She is one of the leading voices in the fight for gender equality in music. Listed as one of the BBC’s 100 most inspirational and influential women in the world, Gabriella is also the founder and curator of the charitable foundation Donne - Women in Music - dedicated to achieving gender equality in the music industry.
We talk about the incredibly long list of woman composers and the unbelievably few plays they get in conservative classical music organisations. Gabriella shares with us the research and the numbers from the latest report: that in 2021, almost 9 in 10 compositions played by orchestras around the world are written by white men.
But there is hope. At least in a different field. This year's Biennale di Venezia, invited 213 artists, among them 21 men.
And here is an Exercise you can do very easily in a quiet moment:
Check your playlists and count the artists that you are listening to (also the producers and composers) and find out how biased your musical taste is.
We also made a start with a Top 6 of woman composers you should know and listen to:
Lili Boulanger
Nadia Boulanger
Fanny Mendelssohn Hensel
Clara Schuhmann
Leokadiya Kashperova
Florence Beatrice Brice
Rachel Portman, was the first woman who got an oscar.
Show notes and how to connect with Gabriella
Website: https://www.gabrielladilaccio.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GDiLaccio/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gdilaccio/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabrielladilaccio/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/GDiLaccio
More about Donne, Women in Music
Website: https://donne-uk.org/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/donneuk/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/donne_uk/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/donneuk
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Donne_UK
The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialises in facilitating leaders, teams and organisations in customer experience, change and innovation. Check out their website
Do you like books?
Check out the new book: The Power of Music Thinking and get stories, explanations and exercises to apply music thinking. Buy The Power of Music Thinking
More like this
Please subscribe to the podcast and listen to the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking.

Oct 10, 2022 • 49min
Conducting Design with Raf De Keninck
My guest today is Raf De Keninck, executive member, director of education, research, and organisation of the Design Academy Eindhoven - one of the world's leading design schools. And Raf is also a performing musician, clarinet player and conductor. He played, for example, at the beginning of the 2000s, 300 concerts a year.
We start with sharing the incredible dreams he had as a child and a unique ritual he did in his adolescent years.
And we get some insights into his leadership skills, for example, the advantages of having an outside view, combined with excellent listening skills and the practice of 'not knowing' and how to let inspiration flow in two ways. So, when you are open, then people will also be open.
We talk about leading and following, and Raf explains what it means as a conductor to have a total overview and a well-defined score and how you can lead without explicitly leading. And there is another story of a conductor shouting at an orchestra and how the musicians were teaching him a lesson.
“Every time you play, rehearse or perform, you learn something.”
Show notes and how to connect with Raf
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rafdekeninck/
Design Academy Eindhoven website: https://www.designacademy.nl/
Personal website: https://www.rafdekeninck.nl/
Mahler 8th Symphony (Director: Georg Solti) on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/51GmsdrdDSuwM9gTTS23Xg?si=Uyq4tbLhRGWvHAzoWZknLg
Ligeti Chamber Concerto (Raf is talking about the most inspiring piece for organisations and leading and following): https://open.spotify.com/album/46e15cKAuwDSwyIrTDeDk4?si=YJdzj6ZiRtua0_gfvV-H0g
John Cage 4’33’ recording from the first Design Thinkers Conference: https://creativecompanion.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/i-invite-you-to-listen-music-thinking-in-service-design/
Do you like books?
Check out the new book: The Power of Music Thinking and get stories, explanations and exercises to apply music thinking. Buy The Power of Music Thinking
More like this
Please subscribe to the podcast and listen to the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking.
The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialised in facilitating leaders, teams and organisations in customer experience, change and innovation. Check out their website

Sep 19, 2022 • 42min
Modular Strategies with Rikkert Achtereekte
My guest today is Rikkert Achtereekte, customer director of sales and electronic musician. Rikkert works for the IT engineering company Schuberg Philis, which focuses on mission-critical processes. And Rikkert is a composer and performer of electronic music and gets together with some friends for a bi-monthly improvisation session on modular synthesizers.
Rikkert shares insights about his company that builds solutions for business problems, for example, with a collaborative approach they call 'system in the room'. And they are pretty successful in what they are doing; they now got the Giarte XLA award for the 16th time. And he shares with us a workshop lab setting where he uses modular synthesizers to let people collaborate better and be more creative.
And precisely, that way of thinking - giving output and receiving input in a connected system of elements - is the essence of the Music Thinking Framework, with all the cues connected.
So if you are at home or in the office while you hear this, you might want to download the framework first and then listen to this episode. But if you listen to it while driving a car or walking in nature, relax and enjoy the conversation with many life sounds from a modular synthesizer that Rikkert brought to the show.
Show notes and how to connect with Rikkert
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rikkert-achtereekte-9694aa49/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/voltmeistermodular/
Schuberg Philis, company website: https://schubergphilis.com/en
Voltmeister, the modular synth music group: https://voltmeister.bandcamp.com
Voltmeister on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1gB0NEOq2RooF3oSIoAtVv?si=aS8_YsVcStWgcrJeCy1q_w
Do you like books?
Check out the new book: The Power of Music Thinking and get stories, explanations and exercises to apply music thinking. Buy The Power of Music Thinking
More like this
Please subscribe to the podcast and listen to the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking.
Meet our sponsor
The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialised in facilitating leaders, teams and organisations in customer experience, change and innovation. Check out their website

Aug 15, 2022 • 55min
The Instrument with a smile with Dagan Bernstein - Ukulele
Today we are in Hawaii. We speak with Dagan Bernstein, a teacher and musician passionate about designing and leading innovative educational experiences. Dagan is currently serving as Capstone Coordinator at an independent K-12 international boarding school in Hawaii with additional expertise in mathematics, music, and digital media instruction.
We speak about collaboration in the classroom, how to co-create with students and how this might be an inspiration for business people. And we talk intensively about the Ukulele, how he is using this in teaching, and some historical background, and we hear him play a tenor ukulele during the conversation like he would do at the farmers market at the weekend.
And we learn new Hawaiian words and mindsets like Malama Kaiaulu, the act of Kilo and Ike.
Shownotes
Here are some links to sources we mentioned in the talk.
Youtube: Student Ukulele Ensemble
Youtube: Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain
Peter Moon (spotify)
Jesse Kalima (spotify)
Eddie Kamae (spotify)
Connect with Dagan
Twitter: @daganbernstein
Instagram: @daganmusic and @dagan.blog
Website: daganmusic.com
More info
The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialised in facilitating companies in making brand minded and people-centred decisions.
Buy The Power of Music Thinking book to learn and find out more about Music Thinking and how to use this in your endeavour.
See the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking

Jul 13, 2022 • 53min
The Sound of Nature with Hélène Seiyu Codjo - Shakuhachi
In this episode, you can listen to a conversation with Helene Seiyu Codjo and the sound of the shakuhachi.
Helene is a shakuhachi performer, composer and teacher.
"In the single tone of the shakuhachi, the whole of nature can be heard whispering its secrets." Dean Seicho Del Bene
We talk about the first memorable concert she heard as a child (there is one recital on Spotify with Miguel Ángel Estrella); how she came to the shakuhachi and how playing the shakuhachi has also something to do with 'letting go of your ego’.
Hélène shares a beautiful story about playing the shakuhachi in nature.
And we hear the Shakuchahi and a short recording outside in nature where we play together in a soundscape of birds, geese and men-made sounds.
Connect with Hélène:
Website: https://hijirishakuhachi.com
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/lnflutes08
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/shakudojo
Bandcamp: https://heleneseiyu.bandcamp.com/
Blogpost about playing in nature: https://hijirishakuhachi.com/2022/02/03/playing-shakuhachi-in-nature/
More info
The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialised in facilitating companies in making brand-minded and people-centred decisions.
Buy The Power of Music Thinking book
See the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking

Jun 1, 2022 • 17min
Green Listening and how green vinyl records is revolutionising the vinyl business
Special edition: Today, we reflect on the changes in the music industry and how we listen to music, from live concerts to streaming - via vinyl, CD, and download.
And we think about the impact of our choices, the impact on the environment and what medium and behaviour fits best to your listening experience.
Further, we visit Green Vinyl Records in the south of the Netherlands at their factory; we hear the sounds of production of a revolutionary approach to making the vinyl record business a green business.
And learn from them why their approach to producing vinyl records - that is, chemically not vinyl anymore - is 90% less energy-consuming than the traditional way of pressing vinyl.
That is also the reason why the BBC, ZDF, NOS, The Guardian and The Power of Music Thinking :-) visited the factory in the last month. Watch out when you see GVR on the sleeve of your next vinyl record.
Links:
Green Vinyl Records on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/greenvinylrecords/
Harm Theunisse on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harm-theunisse-5123555/
Setting the record straight: is streaming greener than vinyl?
https://theecologist.org/2018/mar/16/setting-record-straight-streaming-greener-vinyl

May 16, 2022 • 1h 30min
Performing in Japan with Bjoern
Today we are in München, Germany, talking to Björn Eichstädt, Managing Partner & Co-Owner of Storymaker and publisher of the digital magazine “J-BIG – Japan Business in Germany”. He studied Neurobiology and was active in experimental music in the 1990s and 2000s.
Björn takes us on a trip to Japan. From J-Horror Films, Japanese Spirits, Film music, audio innovations, sound aficionados and the Sound Design of the Tokyo Treinstation (note: I added the Yurakucho sound after the conversation).
And he shares the business habits and the harmony aspect in collaboration, the ‘performance thinking’ of meetings in Japan and ‘the customer is god’ attitude.
But let’s start with a warning, this is by far the most extended podcast in The Power of Music Thinking history, so if you are prepared to listen to 30 minutes podcasts, you might want to pause and listen further the next day.
All right let’s dive into it.
Show notes
Björn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjoern-eichstaedt-77889b2/
Storymaker Website: https://www.storymaker.de/en/home-en
Japan Business in Germany: https://www.j-big.de/en/
Extra links to Films and Music mentioned in the conversation
Toru Takemitsu - Woman in the dunes
Un Uomo da Rispettare (Complete) - Ennio Morricone
Toru Takemitsu graphic scores
J-Horror and Sound: Kayako Saeki sound
J-Horror and Sound 2: Ringu Sound Design
Vocaloid: Hatsune Miku - World is Mine ~【手描き】ワールドイズマイン【Erich von Däniken / Peter Thomas: Chariots of the Gods: Peter Thomas Sound Orchestra - Chariots Of The Gods ℗ 1970 - YouTube
Stockhausen: Sounds in Space, Osaka 1970
Pedestrian crossings with sound in Japan! - YouTube
Gate Sounds for Boarding. - YouTube
Yamanote Line - The Comprehensive Eki-melo Database
More info
The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialised in facilitating companies in making brand minded and people-centred decisions.
Buy The Power of Music Thinking book
See the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking

May 4, 2022 • 39min
Finding your Side B with Paula White
Today we are in New Albany, Ohio. We speak with Paula White, a globally recognized sales leader, leadership coach and author of the book Side B: Remix Your Leadership Style.
We talk about how music can (re)charge the way you are leading and how leaders can work on their behavioural traits based on music principles. Paula shares with us the ten archetypal instruments that are based on a scientific survey. And Paula explains more about the saxophone type that came out of the survey I did before the conversation.
Show notes
Paula S White on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paula-s-white/
Side B book page: https://paulaswhite.com/book-order/
The gracious Saxophone: https://paulaswhite.com/music/the-saxophone-gracious/
More info
The Power of Music Thinking is brought to you by CREATIVE COMPANION specialised in facilitating companies in making brand minded and people centered decisions.
Buy The Power of Music Thinking book
See the latest episode of The Power of Music Thinking


