Show Notes:Links:Whirly BoardOWASP Top TenDetectifyKolideWWIVTrade WarsSecurity Researcher Hall of FameFull Transcript:Josh:Yeah. It's called a Whirly Board and it's a local... Well, not local. It's a US small business apparently that makes them. I forget where they're located. Not in Washington. It's like a skateboard. There's I've seen other balance boards that are made for standing desks, but none of them have the... This has also side... You can balance on the edges of it as well so you can rock back and forth between the outer edges and balance.Starr:Oh, that's really cool.Josh:Apparently you can do a tricks. You can 360.Starr:Of course you can.Josh:And... Yeah. You can ollie.Starr:So I was imagining literally a skateboard on top of an exercise ball where if you lost your balance it would just fly out from underneath you.Josh:Yeah. This is not... One of the big exercise balls?Starr:Yeah. Yeah, exactly. One of the big ones.Josh:No.Starr:You probably wouldn't have enough ceiling in your room to... The ceiling wouldn't be high enough to-Josh:Yeah. It would not be. Yeah.Starr:Well, that's cool. So that's supposed to work out your core or something or give you a better balance?Josh:Yeah, I think all of the above. I more just got it to give myself something to do while I'm standing. It's kind of fun. It's a sport you can do while working at your desk.Starr:Oh, that's cool. Sometimes at my standing desk I find that I'm fine. I find that I'm standing, but I'm standing in this very rigid way. And I have to remind myself to not do that. So maybe that would help.Josh:This definitely stops you from doing that. You have to... And I think this one is very... It's not stable at all so it's probably on the more unstable end of the options out there.Starr:I was trying to work that into a sick burn against, I don't know, Node or something, but-Josh:Put it in there somewhere.Starr:... couldn't do it in time. I'm a little bit tired. Feeling a little bit tired. So on Thursday... Wait. Yeah, Thursday I took the day off and drove down to San Francisco. It was a 13 hour drive. And then I had a-Josh:Pretty good time?Starr:Yeah. I had appointment, came back the next day and another 13 hour drive. I didn't really sleep very well. I mean, honestly, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. It was very long, but I've done that before. It's about the same distance from the bottom of Texas to Guadalajara, which I've driven several times.Josh:Yeah. It's not too bad.Starr:It's boring and you feel like mush. You feel like oatmeal after the end of it, but...Josh:Yeah. Get a good audio book or podcast or something.Starr:Yeah.Josh:I mean, our podcast doesn't work well for long road trips because our episodes are 30 minutes.Starr:I just binged our own podcast the whole way down there. I just binged it. It's so bingeable.Josh:So you binged on the way down, and then you binged it again on the way back?Starr:Yeah. So my biggest travel tip that I... Something I did different this time. It really probably only works. I mean, maybe you could swing this if you're flying. The reason I drove instead of just taking an easy one hour flight is that I don't want to die. And that seemed to be the less lethal option at this point. So I was able to take my yoga mat. I don't do really complex yoga, but just having this ability to stretch after I arrive at a place after driving many hours and, I feel much less pretzelified than I normally would after a trip like that.Josh:That's a good idea.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Did you go down by The Golden Gate Bridge and just out on the beach and stretch at dawn, do some yoga at dawn on the waterfront?Starr:I'll let you imagine that. Yeah. That's a great image. I'll let all of our listeners imagine that, that I have that kind of life.Josh:Yeah.Starr:That sounds wonderful.Josh:Yeah. I've done that drive more times than I probably should have.Starr:Do you all mind if I cross promote my Insta on here? I'm just kidding. I don't have an Insta.Josh:You're a lifestyle influencer?Starr:Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Starr:So yeah. What are we talking about today? Ben:I was just thinking about security in the context of our compliance work, which thankfully is just about wrapped up. I checked on the auditor portal this morning and all of the evidences have been accepted.Josh:Yay.Ben:So now I think it's just getting the final report written is the only thing left for them to do. So I'm pretty excited about that.Josh:You knocked those out fast, Ben.Ben:Well, it only took, what, several months of preparation to get to that point.Starr:Fast.Josh:Yeah, the last couple of weeks it seems like you're like, yeah, they gave me another list of 40 things that we have to do. And I'll maybe get to them over the next couple of months. And then a whole week of doing things, and then it's ready.Starr:You posted a screenshot and it was all gameified. It looked like Xbox achievements or something.Josh:Oh, right. Are you going for HIPAA now?Ben:Oh man. I so want to. You have to envision this since you're listening to this podcast, but imagine a dashboard that shows you circle charts for completion. What we're working on, and what we've been working on, the compliance is SOC2. And on our dashboard for the auditor's tool, their web based tool they use to track all this stuff, there is a little circle chart that shows you what your completion is towards your goal of getting SOC2 compliance. Well, next to that chart are other charts that show you what your progression is towards other compliance games that you could use, like HIPAA or ISO 27001. And it's totally game mechanics, psychological kind of thing, where they're like, "Hey, look how close you are to this other thing that you could also do and spend a lot more money and time to get compliance certified for." And it just made me twitch because I'm totally a sucker for that sort of thing. I'm like, oh, I could get that, and I could get that. Yeah, it's been rough. I have to resist the urge to double down and do HIPAA and other things like that.Josh:Yeah. Does SOC affect... If a medical business needed to use us that needed something... I don't know. Does it help us at all in the medical field, or do we need to go for HIPAA if we're going to deal with that?Ben:HIPAA, like SOC, there's not a checklist of things. It's a bunch of guidelines, and-Josh:Yeah.Ben:There's a bunch of guidelines, and you need to assure an auditor, and your customers, that you adhere to certain practices and procedures that make you a secure organization. So there is a lot of overlap. So, for example, that percentage goal thing that they showed in the dashboard. When it was showing SOC2 is 87% completed, it was showing HIPAA at 82% complete.Josh:Yeah.Ben:So there is a lot of overlap there.Josh:Okay.Ben:But the way that, typically, I think we will handle that, instead of just going for a full HIPAA ce...

Show notes:Links:Kathy SierraSeinfield – Vandalay IndustriesMinnesota FatsLemonade StandPhrack Honeybadger Developer BlogFull Transcript:Starr:We are on uncharted ground. We usually record on Fridays, but I was out on Friday, so we're recording on a Monday now. We just had our all hands meeting. I had a meeting before that, which means this is my third Zoom call of the day. I've got another Zoom call after this one.Josh:Wow, that's a lot of meetings.Ben:That's impressive.Starr:I figure if I have enough meetings on Zoom, I'll become a Zoomer and I'll like have found the fountain of youth.Josh:Is that how that works?Starr:That's how it works.Josh:Cool, okay.Starr:That was a terrible joke I'm sorry.Josh:We're all Zoomers now.Starr:I apologize to our listeners.Josh:I think no, the joke proves that we're Zoomers, I think. They're funny, right?Starr:It's fine. I'm going to learn Snapchat this evening. I have an hour booked into my schedule.Josh:Very cool.Ben:Speaking of Snapchat, so I don't know if you heard the news over the weekend, by Microsoft is in acquisition talks for TikTok.Josh:Yeah, which is just like, I did not see that coming.Ben:No, no. Not at all. But someone made a funny joke on Twitter, and I just had to share it, and it was basically, "Now Microsoft is going to have a cradle to grave experience. Social networks from birth until death." And so they had TikTok, and then there's Xbox, and GitHub, and then LinkedIn. Right? So, it'd have you covered, right? From cradle to grave.Josh:See, I thought the cradle to grave experience with Microsoft was what happens to the social networks after they acquire them.Ben:Oh, oh.Starr:Oh.Ben:Sick burn.Starr:Sick burn, yeah.Josh:Thanks, thanks.Starr:Does anyone still used LinkedIn?Ben:No.Starr:It just seems like, I don't know, I had to go on or... I don't know. I was there for some reason, probably not a good one. And it was just like, "This just looks like..." All social networks end up looking like a... I don't know, like a strip mall eventually.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative). That definitely describes LinkedIn.Ben:Yeah, that's an apt description. Yeah.Starr:It's just like, what random crappy wares are you hawking? Is it shitty articles about synergy, or is it conspiracy theories about masks and mind control?Josh:Although, I don't know. We looked at people's LinkedIns when we were hiring, in past hiring sessions, so I guess HR departments obviously still use it.Starr:What if you had no LinkedIn? Would that be a detriment?Josh:I don't know.Starr:I can't imagine I would hold that against anyone.Ben:No, I wouldn't, but I would expect there to be something out there, right?Starr:Yeah.Ben:A personal website or a GitHub profile that has some stuff in it, or something. I would expect that if you were into tech, that you would be doing something online. Somewhere.Josh:Right, but as far as... I mean, LinkedIn, having an active LinkedIn or a Twitter account or something. I would understand why people would not have those for a variety of reasons. Yeah, I regret both regularly, so.Starr:I mean, because if you wanted to hire Kathy Sierra, she's not going to have a Twitter account. Right?Josh:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that would not want to put themselves into the environment that is Twitter.Starr:No doubt.Josh:Very similar reasons.Starr:Definitely.Ben:Exactly.Starr:That's me lately.Josh:Yeah, which is unfortunate, yeah. Really? Is it, Starr?Starr:Oh, yeah. I was just like, "This is just making my unhappy every time I look at this. Why am I looking at this?"Josh:Yeah, I stopped reading the newsfeed because that's the thing. If I stop with Twitter, it sucks you in and then it just makes you sad or mad or another negative emotion.Ben:Doomscrolling.Starr:Doomscrolling. Yeah, it's like, I know the world's ending. I don't need to be reminded of it every two minutes. Give me a couple hours in between. So, what should we talk about today? Ben:So, one of the topics on our list is a question Ben put together for us a while back was, "What sparked each of the founder's interest in computers?"Starr:Oh, a nostalgia episode. Ben:Yeah, yeah. And you talked about that person who was looking to get into tech, and I'm like, "Hey, we could do that. We could do some nostalgia.Starr:Yeah, cold, hard cash. In 25 years, I want to be making a typical engineer's salary.Ben:What I'm curious about though is what... Like Starr, you mentioned you had a non-traditional path, but I wanted to find out a little bit more about what y'all wanted to do when you were kids, before you ended up on the whole, "I'm going to be a developer/tech/person, whatever."Starr:Oh.Ben:Like for example, I wanted to be an architect. That's what I wanted to be.Starr:I can see that.Ben:At least one of the things when I was a kid. There were some other things in there, but one of the things I really wanted to do was to be an architect. I thought that was a super cool career.Starr:Wow.Josh:Yeah, I'm trying to remember. I know-Josh:journalist was always one for me.Ben:Well, that's cool. That's cool.Starr:You do value the truth.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Fake news.Starr:My dad was an architect, so I can actually see that, Ben. I think you would make a pretty good architect if you ever want to go back to school. But-Starr:Ben I think you would think a pretty good architect if you ever wanted to go back to school. But let me tell you, architects make shit money. Of all the professions that people know about, architect's the least paying.Ben:It's like a beige collar... it's not a white collar job, it's a beige collar because they get paid a little.Starr:Yeah. And I think it's just because it's, I don't know, game development or something, so many people are like, "Oh, well I like art and stuff. So I'm going to be an architect." So it's this prestige thing. But you don't actually need that many architects.Josh:There's only so many buildings and so many unique buildings.Starr:Yeah. For a while I worked doing drafting in an architect's office and that was one of my many careers and you just need one architect in the office to sign off on the plans. Everything else has become very specialized. So it's like you need your HVAC engineers and you need your plumbing people and all that stuff. So in terms of architects, they don't make that much. The engineers on the other hand, seemed from my limited experience, seemed to make a little bit of money. Can I tell you a story?Josh:Please.Starr:Okay. So there's this engineer who I guess had a firm, and this was in Arkansas. This was not in a big city. He always acted like he was this high roller when he came into the office t...

Show Notes:Links:TechCrunch Schrems IIFull Transcript:Ben:Speaking of town meetings though, we had a streamed event from our local school district last night in which they revealed that our school district will not be having school in person for the first semester of the year. They're going to do a wait and see approach and see if they can have school opening and the next semester, in I guess January, but for now, the kids are going to be at home.Starr:So how do you feel about that?Ben:I think that's the right decision and in the state of Washington and in King County, in which we live, the coronavirus cases are going higher than they were in the initial, back in March. So I don't see how it's a good idea to have a bunch of kids in an enclosed space for an extended period of time in those kind of conditions.Starr:The difference this time is that it's over.Ben:Yeah.Josh:It's-Starr:The hurricane's past us.Josh:It's a good thing that it fizzled out. You know, the flame was extinguished.Ben:My son is not too excited about the idea because he actually likes to leave the house and see his friends and things that we would do in normal world where we had good leadership that helped us keep things under control. But no. So that part's unfortunate, but at least we won't die.Josh:Silver linings.Starr:Yeah. We try and keep the podcasts pretty nonpolitical, but it's hard to contain the simmering rage sometimes. My new greeting for people when I'm just checking on them. It's like, "How's the apocalypse going?"Ben:So I saw a tweet talking about the resurgence in cases. And she said, "well, how am I supposed to open my emails now? Because now it's precedented times."Josh:That's good. Yeah.Starr:I know. It's kind of weird how, yeah. How precedented this is feeling because it's like, okay. Yeah. I have all this list of things I can't do. That's normal now. I've got all these precautions I take when I leave the house. That's normal now it's just daily life.Ben:Yeah. It's like back in March when they were talking about what the new normal is going to be they weren't thinking just March, it's like, Oh.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Starr:Yeah, just March, but you're a little more comfortable with all the PPE and I don't know, I stopped spraying down, like all the, the bags of chips with bleach. I've stopped doing that. Because apparently that's not very important to do.Ben:I've installed that UVC conveyor belt device in my front room so I can just pass all the groceries through there instead.Starr:Oh, that's a great idea.Josh:Should we send a precedented times email? Like should we finally get around to sending that COVID email?Ben:Yeah. Hope this email finds you well in this precidented time.Josh:Yeah. I've completely been ignoring our email marketing lately.Ben:Yeah. We should do some of that someday.Josh:Probably. I've also been enjoying getting work done.Star:So today I think we're going to talk about, about Safe Harbor. 2020 just really sucks. Right? 2020 it's like the pillars that you've built your life on, just sort of crumble out from underneath you. And one of these sort of milder pillars I guess, is Safe Harbor. So what is Safe Harbor-Ben:It's funny actually, because it's not Safe Harbor-Starr:It's not Safe Harbor.Ben:But that goes along well with precedented times because Safe Harbor was the thing that happened five years ago. And now we're dealing with it again because of Privacy Shield.Starr:Oh, Privacy Shield! I'm sorry.Josh:Was Privacy Shield the thing that was in response to Safe Harbor? I'm trying to remember.Ben:Yes.Josh:Yeah. Okay.Ben:Yeah. When Safe Harbor got torpedoed, then Privacy Shield came around. Yup.Starr:I can't keep my bullshit straight.Ben:So yes, precedented times, indeed.Josh:So yeah. So we're still shielding the Harbor though. Was that the idea? But I do know we no longer now, like the shield is, the shields are down. Is that? I'm losing track of this metaphor.Ben:Can't take much more of this captain.Starr:Well, they've sort of dropped it though, because it was... Well, which one came first? Safe Harbor?Ben:Yeah, Safe Harbor.Starr:And then Privacy Shield. And now it's standard contractual clauses or something like that?Josh:Right. Yeah.Ben:Right, today we're talking about data.Starr:Data, okay.Ben:And again, not Star Trek.Josh:And what to do with it.Starr:Ones and zeros.Josh:Yeah.Ben:So yeah. So a brief history is in order. So back in the olden days in pre 2015, so the whole thing is data transfer from the EU to the US that's what we're talking about. And that's why we care because we have customers in the EU and they want to send us data. In our case, in Honeybadger's case, we have customers who are sending potentially confidential data about their customers, right? Maybe an email address or an address or something that might show up at an exception report. And so they have to be concerned, our customers do, about what data they send us and how we protect that data because there are varying laws around the world about data protection.Ben:Like we've seen with GDPR the past few years. So I guess a brief history is back in the early 2000s, the EU started to get concerned about the US not having as good as protections on data as the EU and so they came up with this agreement with the US on how data would be treated. They got transferred to the US from the EU. And that ended up in the Safe Harbor agreement, which basically said that, "Oh, US companies, if you agree to this kind of thing, then you can accept data from the EU because you agree to do these kinds of protections. You're not just going to publish it on a billboard or, or whatever." Right. But then it got kind of blown up from a court case in the European union let's see, that's a Schrems, is that what it's called?Josh:Yeah, Schrems one and Schrems two then. Yeah.Ben:Well, Schrems one was a case that got decided by the court of justice of the European Union. And that was basically a privacy advocate who said, "Man, the Safe Harbor stuff, it's not really good enough." And so he sued and the court of justice agreed and invalidated Safe Harbor. And that sucked.Josh:Yes.Starr:Safe Harbor it was kind of weak sauce. Right. It seemed to me more like the pledge of allegiance than a binding sort of contract.Ben:True. True. Yeah.Starr:It was just like, we hold these data to be protected. We really, really promise.Ben:Right, right. Cross my heart, hope to die, it will be protected. Yeah. So the court decided, "Nope, not good enough." And so everybody hustles and put in a valiant effort and came up with the Privacy Shield and that was fine. It still was like, okay, you're going to, as a US company, you're going to pledge to assure that you're going to do these kinds of things with data. But overall, my impression being on the implementation end was that it felt a little more, I don't know, real?Ben:I don't know, it was less of just saying you're going to do the system stuff and then more of a, yes, you're actually doing some stuff. I don't know. There really was no Privacy Shield police that came and knocked on your door, but it was more detailed. It felt a little more...

Show Notes:Links:Ghost Octopress SquarespaceTailwindTyler Tringas Full Transcript:Josh:You're looking chipper, Ben.Ben:I'm feeling chipper, Josh.Josh:I'm glad.Starr:Yeah, there's kind of like ... you have kind of like a glow. Is this the new product glow?Ben:I think it is the new product glow, yes, yes.Starr:Okay.Ben:I pushed out a new feature this morning.Josh:Congratulations.Ben:Thank you, thank you. So, yeah, feeling pretty good. Had a good week, got some stuff built and deployed and things are working. I learned some things along the way, so yes, it's good.Starr:Awesome.Josh:You know, I had a pretty good week too, sleep aside. I even got enough sleep one day.Starr:Oh really? That's good.Josh:Yeah, yeah, that was a good day.Starr:Thank goodness, that's always terrible.Josh:I've been making progress on the JavaScript stuff so that's always good.Starr:On redoing our node client library?Josh:Yeah. Yeah, the universal rewrite. So it's combining the client side and the server side so that they can both function basically the same code running on the front-end and back-end with a few minor differences in how the platforms handle all the important things. So, it's a bit of a can of worms but it's what the kids demand these days, so got to give them what they want.Starr:Like your kids? Kids are pretty-Josh:Yes, all my kids are demanding universal NPM packages.Starr:My kid just demands pizza.Josh:Yeah. We've been making pizza lately and it's been pretty good.Starr:Oh, yeah, yeah. I've been doing it too. Have you been doing the dough where you let it rise for a day and all that?Josh:Yeah. Caitlyn does the dough and then I do the ... We got that ... Did I tell you? I told you all about the smoker with the ... It's a pellet smoker with the ... It has a pizza oven attachment that sits right directly in whatever the furnace part of the smoker, and so you get this ... It's like a wood fire pizza oven, and it can cook your pizza at 800 degrees or higher, so it's pretty intense.Starr:That would be really handy. We've scaled back our pizzas just because it's really hot and nobody has AC in Seattle and neither do we. We've got a unit that we can drag up from the basement and it's ridiculously obtrusive and everything, but yeah, we just try and avoid running the oven in this weather.Josh:That is one nice thing about this is that it's on the porch. I spend my time out there sweating on the porch baking pizzas, but everyone else doesn't have to be bothered by it.Starr:Yeah, we've been grilling a lot too and we've been trying to eat less meat, and so we've got this CSA farm box thing and they give us these weird ass vegetables, so I've just been grilling them all and it turns out pretty much every vegetable is good if you just put oil on it and you grill it.Josh:Nice.Starr:Did you know there's such a thing called garlic scapes? I didn't know this. Do y'all know what garlic scapes are?Ben:Nope.Starr:If you've ever seen a garlic plant growing, there's a garlic part that's in ... it's under the ground, right? But then there's the stem part that sticks out and it's kind of round. It has a little onion bulb on top and that is called the garlic scape. I guess you can cut them and grill them, and they're delicious. They're delicious.Josh:Have people always been eating these? What have we done with these for the last however long that we've been eating garlic? Because I've never heard of this before.Starr:I imagine that people who grow garlic have always eaten these.Josh:They must eat them all? Like they save the good part ... That's the good stuff probably and then we just get the-Starr:Yeah, it must be.Josh:... Yeah.Starr:We get the dregs.Starr:Yeah. I had a pretty good week too. I worked a bit on the static site for ... or the sales site for Hook Relay which is the new sort of product that Ben has been working on with Kevin, and Josh, have you been working on it too? I don't want to leave you out.Josh:No.Starr:Okay, okay.Josh:I've been rooting for them though.Starr:Okay, that's good. Everybody needs a cheerleader.Josh:I'm cheering hard over here.Starr:So yeah. Today we're going to be talking a little bit about sort of sales sites, the static site that you sort of put out into the world so people can see your app, and that's not necessarily the actual sort of app itself. So I guess we currently for this, we have our sales site hosted on a separate domain, but it wasn't always this way. When we first launched Honey Badger we had our main Rails app and the sales site was just some pages served by that app. We eventually changed that. So why did we eventually change that and move it into its own domain?Ben:There were a few reasons there. One of them was we got kind of tired of having to deploy the app every time we wanted to make a constant change to the website.Starr:I forgot about that.Ben:You know, because it has to go through all the test suite and everything. It's like, oh, five minutes to deploy a one word change to the site.Starr:It's like it made a typo, it's going to take 10 minutes to deploy.Ben:Yep, yep. Another thing was, as I recall, we just had customers who were getting ... Some got confused about which ... I remember we had customers who were submitting traffic to www.HoneyBadger.io. Like, API traffic instead of ... I don't know how that happened, but instead of using our API domain, they use our dub-dub domain, and because the app also responded on dub-dub, then it just worked. They're like, "Okay, cool," and we didn't notice, and then, I don't know, three years later when we were moving stuff around and changing how the hosting was going, it's like all of a sudden we broke that client because they were still sending traffic to our main domain instead of the API.Josh:Yeah, probably an oversight on our part. To the allow the traffic to that domain if we were hosting different roles like that, but that's just kind of how we do it.Ben:Yeah, but when we first launched, the Rails app did everything, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:It was the site, it was the app, it was the API.Josh:Which, to be fair, I like that a little bit. There's something about just having one thing that was nice and-Ben:Yeah, it's simple.Josh:... There's some other benefits, like you can do weird things with the sales site that integrates. Well, you can display a ... It's easy to show a logged in link or something because you have the cookies and everything right there, the session, because it's all just your app, but yeah, it presents other issues once you ... down the road.Starr:So Ben, were you telling me that somebody was discussing this? Was that in the discourse?Ben:Yeah, yeah. So a few weeks ago on Twitter ... I think Tyler Tringas brought this up. I think he was just throwing out some advice for people who are starting up, and he's like, "Here's a piece of advice that you'll like down the road. Separate your app from your sales site," and a lot of people were like, "Huh? Why?" And other people were like, "Yes, totally." And all the "yes, t...

Show Notes:Links:Mighty CalHook RelayProfitwell RetainFloor Is LavaBen Curtis TwitterFull Transcript:Starr:So what were you all talking about before I jumped on the call?Ben:We were talking about Derrick's new startup Mighty Cal.Starr:Mighty Cal.Ben:Looking pretty nice. I was telling Josh how I like the virality of it. If you're using Mighty Cal and you share those links with someone, then they're going to be like, "Oh, that's cool. I should use that too." And it's just going to help the spread. I really like that kind of... I was reflecting on Honeybadger. It's like, well we just don't really have an opportunity to get the kind of-Josh:Wouldn't it be fun to have that aspect of it? They got that with Drip too. That was their big thing with the Drip widget, so I'm sure Derrick, he knows what he's doing.Starr:We tried to do that a bit when we did our... When there's an error on your website, Honeybadger can display a form for user feedback.Josh:The problem is... Yeah. And it's got to be a developer who is seeing it, and then... When developers try to do something, hits an error, and then is like, oh, I should add that to my app right now. Like I just got a fail whale or something.Ben:Yeah, I think the population of calendar users is probably a little bigger than the population of web developers.Starr:That's funny, because I thought that you were going to say that the thing you liked about the idea is... I'm assuming. I'm making assumptions here. But the relatively low ops burden.Ben:Well, yes. There's that too.Ben:The problem, Starr, with the whole ops burden thing is now we're good at the high ops burden thing, so now we're supposed to take on more apps like that, so that we can leverage those skills.Starr:Yeah.Josh:That's kind of our thing. Which we are. Right?Ben:Exactly. Our next one, Hook Relay, is going to be a pretty big ops burden too.Starr:It's like, what does your company specialize in? It's like, well we have a variety of products, all of which process a ton of traffic. That's just what we do. It's just traffic processing.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Our specialty is running services that you don't want to run yourself because it's a pain in the butt.Starr:That is pretty much every service. We should run a house cleaning service. I'm in dire need right now. So speaking of, I was late to the call, and I may actually... There's a chance I may have to run. There's a chance there may be a bunch of noise later on, because, well, a couple days ago my water heater just burst open. It was just like somebody blew the Hoover Dam in my little girl's room. Just been dealing with that, doing a lot of wet/dry vac-ing. Getting a lot of use out of that $30 investment.Ben:Have you been to the Hoover Dam?Starr:No, I haven't. I haven'tBen:You should totally go check it out. It is awesome.Starr:Well, now that I know what it would look like, what it's failure mode looks like, I'm not sure I want to go there. And yeah, so anyway I thought I vacuumed up everything, but it turns out there's... Your hot water pipes in your house have hot water in them. It's like when you have a straw in a drink and you hold one end of it, and then you pull it out and there's still drink in there. Well, I didn't think to go and open all the hot water faucets when I was draining the heater originally.Starr:And so as people were just sort of randomly accidentally turning them on, the water in the pipes would flush back into the hot water heater and then drain out again.Josh:Oh no.Starr:So I had to go take care of that. Oh, and I learned a few things I'll pass on to our listeners because I think one of the cool things about our podcast is the breadth. Some people may go deeper than we do, but we cover a pretty wide variety of topics.Josh:It really is the whole founder experience.Starr:Exactly. Exactly. Part of being a founder is dealing with your water heater bursting. And yeah, so I've got these friends. They're a couple. The husband is a maintenance man, and the wife is a forensic engineer. I was telling y'all about this yesterday, and that means that she goes in and whenever some building gets screwed and people get sued over it, she goes in and documents everything. It's like, who messed up here?Starr:And so I talked to them about it. Once water gets under laminate flooring, it's just a goner. You just have to pull it up. There's no way about it, because the water is never coming out. And so yesterday I pulled up half the laminate flooring, and then the guy I just mentioned, the maintenance guy helped me pull the rest of it up and did the baseboards and cut the drywall around the bottom where it soaked in there. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. Fun times. You said this happened in your daughter's room? In Ida's room?Starr:Yeah. Yeah.Josh:Did she get a cool story out... like her bed is now a pirate ship or something, or an island.Starr:Well, she's really into the fact that she just has a concrete floor now that looks all gnarly. She's just going around being like, "I love it!"Josh:Maybe you should just leave it. I mean, she's happy with it.Starr:Yeah, I don't think that's going to work out. It might affect the resell value.Ben:The actual story is that she really wanted to play the floor is lava, and so she-Josh:My kids are obsessed with that. They love it. Yeah.Ben:I saw someone tweeted about that, talking about watching the show that's on Netflix.Josh:The Netflix show, yeah.Ben:I haven't seen it. But this person said, "Yeah, I watched it for about eight minutes, and then I got too bored. And I think I would've stuck around longer if the floor actually was lava."Josh:I mean, that's a pretty good commentary. My kids are two and four, and this is a show that is conceivably for adults, I think. But my kids just can't get enough of it, and it's one of the few things that we can actually watch as a family and they will sit through a whole episode with us. So it's more for their benefit. But yeah, I think if it's keeping the kids engaged that long, I don't know if it's the thing I would be watching after they go to bed.Ben:So really this is the way for Netflix to build brand identity with the young kids, so that they'll be hooked for life.Josh:Yeah. But it's not a kids show, as far as I can... I mean, it's like a family show, I guess. But I don't know.Starr:I do get really strong Double Dare vibes from it. I was a big Double Dare fan back in the day. So she doesn't get a cool story out of it, but I think I do because the way I found out about this leak was that I was downstairs taking a bath, and I just hear, "I need to pee." So I'm like, oh okay, whatever. So I get out of the bathtub, and I go out there, and I'm noticing there's water all over the floor.Josh:Oh, no.Starr:I'm just like, "Ida, what? This is too much." there's a big hissing sound coming from her room.Josh:It's like a parent's worse nightmare.Starr:Yeah. Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Starr:But then the thing is she didn't even notice any of that. She just woke up and had to pee. But I think it was because there was this big giant hissing so...

Show Notes:Links:StripeHeyByeFull Transcript:Josh:I'm the co-pilot today, right?Ben:Co-pilot. Yeah, yeah. So today we're flying without Star. Star is not feeling well, so today is just the two of us.Josh:And I have been on vacation. Well, I am on vacation.Ben:Yeah.Josh:Sticking my head up.Ben:We are so into FounderQuest that we even come in on vacation to record an episode.Josh:Yeah. I don't know. It's nice to keep the schedule. I don't know. I've been trying to take a lot of vacations, so if we didn't record every time one of us was on vacation, then I feel like we wouldn't have a very consistent schedule.Ben:That's true. Yeah. So how is your vacation treating you?Josh:Alright. It's really a staycation so far.Ben:Right. I think all vacations are staycations for a while.Josh:Yeah. I've looked at bookings, to go to places. I don't want to go anywhere. I don't want to deal with any of the stuff that's going on right now.Ben:Certainly.Josh:Or take the risk. Then if we did go somewhere, we still have two toddlers. We're better equipped here at least to manage two toddlers who are bored, and there's only so much hiking you can do with a two year old.Ben:Yeah. So no trip to Disneyland this summer?Josh:Not so far, unless my in-laws decide that they want to watch the kids for a few days or something then we can get away. But so far, that's not looking too likely at the moment.Ben:Well, I'll tell you what. All you got to do is wait 10 to 15 years, and it will be great.Josh:Only 10 to 15 years. Yeah, yeah.Ben:Yeah.Josh:So, I don't know. I've been eyeing a bass guitar for a while, and I'm trying to talk myself into finally buying it right now. But I don't know, I'm still debating.Ben:Yeah.Josh:There's a chance I'll pick one up.Ben:Yeah, yeah. The pandemic is a great time to learn new things, right?Josh:Yeah. I think that a lot of people are thinking that way, and driving different parts of the economy.Ben:Now, you already played a keyboard, right?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. I play piano and guitar, and I actually had a bass for a while. It was borrowed, but I liked it. I liked having it around just to funk around on it.Ben:Yeah.Josh:Yeah. But now I want to get a big stack from a garage because I don't have enough cool stuff in there already.Ben:You need to take out some extra insurance on the stuff that's in your garage now.Josh:I know. If that garage burns down, I'm done for.Ben:Yeah. You got to declare that stuff, man. Those insurance companies, they don't mess around.Josh:Yeah. Speaking of that how's your bathroom situation?Ben:Yeah. My bathroom is still not great. So it's amazing how unresponsive contractors can be. I really don't get it. I sent out a bunch of requests to people like, "Hey, here's my situation, and I want to hire someone to help me fix it." And I would say 70% of the people just didn't even respond. I don't know what their sales process is like or if they're super busy right now or what the deal is, but how do you stay afloat in the business-Josh:Really?Ben:... when you're not responding to leads? I don't know.Josh:Yeah. That's a good question.Ben:Yeah. So, I still haven't selected a contractor, so the chances of me of actually just doing it myself are increasing as the days go by. I've been watching the YouTube videos to learn how to-Josh:Really?Ben:... install a new tub, things like that. So my confidence is growing slowly, so I just might actually do it. We'll see.Josh:I've had the same thoughts a few times. I should really learn how to do stuff around my house if I'm going to be a homeowner, and then I've also had the thought that maybe I shouldn't own a house, and I should be renting in the first place. There's that whole camp that I don't think ... They're not wrong.Ben:So the whole economic theory of you should maximize your ... I don't know what the exact phrase is. I can't remember what the term is, but basically you should focus on what you're good it and pay people to focus on what they're good at, right?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:So the economist in me is arguing for me not to do my bathroom myself because that doesn't make any sense, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:Pay someone to do it. They can do a better job than I can.Josh:It's like comparative advantage or it's the whole specialization thing, and yeah. Same.Ben:But on the flip side, there's the whole ... It would be kind of cool like, "Hey, I did that." Right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:I put that in there, and there may be a mistake here and there, but that's my sweat and tears, and probably blood.Josh:It's also knowing how to at least do some of the smaller things would be useful because at some point, finding good contractors, and then managing them, and getting the work actually done, that's a whole job in itself.Ben:Wait, are we talking about bathrooms or are we talking about software development?Josh:Yeah. That applies everywhere. Yeah. The whole management aspect of any kind of contractor project.Ben:Yeah.Josh:At some point, it really does feel like it would be more efficient just for me to do it if I learned how or something.Ben:Yeah. Pro tip for all those freelancers out there is A) Be responsive to leads. B) Maintain good communication so that you don't have to put a lot of load on the person that's hiring you.Josh:Yeah. That whole management overhead thing is huge, and I run across it very infrequently in contractors I work with in both industries. But yeah. That's like a super power, having that skill of managing yourself, and actually driving the communication with the client, and making sure their needs are met, and all of that.Ben:Yeah. We've had projects from time to time, that I know that you've discussed that you think, "Well, it would be nice to do this, but I don't have a lot of time. I could hire it out, but then I have to have all the time to manage hiring it out." So it's a big deal for actually getting out that work to actually have someone that can actually just do it, and not to spend all your time managing them.Josh:It's also tough when you possess a lot of specialized knowledge that needs to be transferred to whoever does the work, at least if I have a specific way I want it to happen. Like I'm a perfectionist, and I want it to happen my way, but not do it. Personally, maybe that's a problem with me. Just like giving up and letting someone else solve the problem their own way. But there is knowledge transfer that you can take time depending on what the job actually is, which I think that's when argument for hiring someone who's going to stick around longer, and hopefully absorb, and be able to utilize that information for a longer period of time versus having to ... They have to learn all this special stuff about our business and problems, and then they move on in a couple of months, and you got to teach someone else how to do it.Ben:Yeah. I saw a Tweet this week that is related to that, and I thought it was interesting. I'll have to see if I can go and find it again for the show notes, but I'm going to roughly paraphrase it because I don't remember exactly what it said. But the thrust of the message was be satisfied with 8...

Show Notes:Links:HeyWorldwide Developers ConferenceDavid Heinemeier HanssonJason FriedHerokuAndrey ButovConfiguring Fastmail to act like HeyFull Transcript:Starr:Okay. Now we can talk about how terrible the world is. No.Ben:So speaking of Apple. Yeah, it's been interesting. So I've been watching all the hubbub over the past few days about Hey and Apple.Starr:So what is Hey?Ben:So Hey is this new email service from our friends at Basecamp.Starr:I still call them 37signals, because we go back.Ben:Way back.Starr:They let me do that.Ben:And also an app. So of course, their web application comes with an IOS application, which has caused a bit of a kerfuffle in the Apple world over the past few days. Which is funny that the timing is such that it's right before their Worldwide Developers Conference. That's interesting. But I was thinking about it this morning-Josh:Yes, it's very interesting. Some would say it's a little more than a coincidence.Ben:I bet you that we will see Basecamp releasing the company version of Hey very, very soon. And when they do, I bet you that the IOS app will be cleared for takeoff. Because I-Josh:Ah, because then it will be a company app, right, in air quotes.Starr:Oh, yeah.Ben:Exactly.Josh:Y'all can't see my air quotes, listeners. But ...Starr:What is the kerfuffle, as you called it? What's going on?Ben:So Apple won't let Basecamp update their IOS app. And in fact, have somewhat threatened to removed the existing app from the store because-Starr:But the existing ... I'm sorry, the existing Basecamp app?Ben:No, the existing Hey app.Starr:Oh, the Hey app.Josh:Yeah, it's the new, their email client. Yeah.Starr:Yeah.Ben:Because they do not support in app purchases for the Hey subscription, which costs $100 a year. And of course, David and Jason are not willing to give Apple any cut. And Apple is saying, "Well, our rules are you got to do IAP if you want to have an app that does something that's tied to a subscription."Josh:They want 30% or something.Ben:30%. So I bet you, again, that company thing will come out real soon now. And as soon as they do, Apple will be like, "Okay, well since it's not an individual thing, then of course we'll let that app in." Just like a bunch of other apps that are currently in the App Store, like for example, Fastmail, right.Josh:The argument is consumer versus business, right.Ben:Right.Josh:The rules for consumer apps are different from the rules for business apps.Ben:And Basecamp, they're making quite a stink about this whole thing, saying it's highway robbery, and it's taxing the internet, and all this kind of stuff, right. But this is a thing of marketplaces, they charge you a fee for being on their storefront. That's just the way that these things work. It's not new, right. And we do the same thing with Heroku, right. We pay Heroku 30% of all the revenue that comes in through people using our service through Heroku. And that's just the cost of being on the platform.Starr:So let me ask you, I think I may have misunderstood this slightly. So in order to have any ... I guess, for new apps, Apple is saying that if you have any type of subscription service, it has to be purchasable through the app via Apple's payment purchasing thing that's equivalent to Apple's version of PayPal, or whatever.Ben:Yeah. If that app is a personal app.Starr:If it's a personal app.Ben:And not a reader kind of app, like Netflix falls into the thing of readers I think. So that's-Starr:Wait, what?Josh:Oh, I didn't know the reader distinction.Starr:I was just going to ask about this, because Netflix, yeah you can't sign up through the App Store for Netflix. So what's the difference?Josh:Oh, because it's read only. It's just content you're viewing or something.Ben:Yes. Yeah.Josh:Oh. So if Netflix let you upload videos like Vimeo or something, then they'd have to ...Ben:Well, imagine if you download the Netflix app, and there was nothing you could do unless you had a paid subscription, right.Josh:Oh, yeah.Ben:Then if there wasn't a special exclusion for Netflix, there obviously is, right, then Apple would say, "Well, the app doesn't do anything useful, we don't want that kind of app on our App Store." And that's the argument for Hey. It's an email app that can't load email from any other service except for Hey, and you can't use Hey unless you have a paid account, a paid personal account.Josh:Yeah, all you can do is log in.Ben:Right.Josh:Right. Yeah.Ben:Right. So I totally see Apple's stance on this. And a lot of people are thinking they're being jerks about it. But I mean, Apple is saying, "Hey, we have a big platform, and you are reaping the benefits of being on our big platform, so pay us."Josh:Yeah. Well, it seems like the bigger question is, is it a good idea to basically just build for one platform?Ben:That's definitely the question, yeah.Josh:If you're going to start a new company, is targeting solely ... Just building IOS apps for instance, is that a good idea?Starr:You want to target IOS and Blackberry.Josh:Right. Get that IOS Blackberry electron port or whatever.Starr:Yeah, you play them off one another.Josh:React Native. Does React Native target Blackberry?Starr:I don't know.Ben:Probably.Starr:My mind is just exploding right now.Josh:Yeah. I find it funny just the level of outrage on both sides. It seems like there's two very vocal camps on one saying, "Basecamp is just drumming up all this outrage as a marketing strategy, and it's just like billionaires squabbling over 30% of their empires or something." And then on the other side, obviously you have DHH and everyone else who's upset with Apple. But to me, it does seem like there are more pressing matters in the world right now than-Starr:Yeah, you think? You think? Just a couple things.Josh:I could think of a few things.Starr:Just a couple more important things.Josh:Yeah.Starr:One thing about this, it's sort of ... Okay. First of all, I have to say, so I was reading Tweets from Andrey Butov a friend of the show, and ... I hope I can say that. I hope he doesn't get mad at me for saying that. And-Josh:Well, he built our IOS app, right.Starr:Yeah, he built our IOS app. So he's a friend of Honeybadger I think, and we're a friend of his. And he's like, "Why are people taking sides on this? This is two companies that both make a ton of money just arguing over a percentage. Why are people taking up arms about it?" And that made me think. Well, that was an interesting take, because I feel like Basecamp, 37signals, their shtick is, "We're bootstrappers." Jason Fried goes and speaks at bootstrap conferences and stuff.Starr:But really, Basecamp is in a league beyond pretty much any bo...

Show Notes:Links:Justin Jackson Twitter12 MonkeysKingkiller ChroniclesFull Transcript:Ben:As I was getting this morning and reading Twitter and just... Twitter. Something that's come up lately, and Justin Jackson has talked about this, and there's a couple other people who have talked about this. On Twitter this morning, it was being talked about. But that's the idea of staying in your lane.Ben:If you're a technologist, and typically your podcast is all about business or whatever. I'm just talking about us, right? Then you should stay in your lane and not talk about current events, whatever. People said that to Justin Jackson as he's been talking about equity and the environment. Some of the things that are concerns to him, and things that he likes to think about and talk about.Ben:I was thinking about that this morning, and I was like, "Well, we could talk about current events on our podcast. There's no reason why we couldn't." Then I thought, "Well, except that, you know what? Maybe this is just a nice break for people that just have too much news in their lives. They can turn to FounderQuest, reassured that they won't have to deal with all the garbage that's going on." We just talk about happy things here.Josh:This is the escape.Starr:I think we're probably not taking an official stance on the staying in your lane thing.Josh:No.Starr:Honestly, this is kind of my break, and I don't want to have arguments during it. I don't really want to debate serious topics right now, because everything is just on fire. I guess that's our way of saying that even though this seems to be the worst possible timeline. I read this morning that the monkeys stole the coronavirus samples from the lab and are running wild with them.Josh:Sounds legit.Starr:Which is the plot of a Terry Gillian movie. Yeah, yeah. If you haven't seen, what is it, 12 Monkeys, there you go-Ben:Oh, that's a good movie.Starr:Yeah, it is. I don't know. I guess this is to say, we're all affected by it, but we're not... I don't know.Josh:As much as we want to be.Starr:I see some people, and people are just plowing ahead with React is... Here's my hot take on React right now. It's like, nobody really wants to hear that right now. Maybe they do, I don't know. It's just hard.Josh:I've been blowing up our Twitter channel with hot takes lately.Ben:Yeah, yeah, Josh is all about the anti-React this week.Josh:Not really hot takes, but.Starr:Is that the anti-poke?Josh:Oh, yeah, you mean my blog? The blog thing?Ben:Yeah, the blog thing. That was pretty cool.Josh:Yeah, it's been... I don't know if you caught it, Starr, but I've been kind of just working on my blog a little bit. Playing around with things lately. I use Jekyll, but I hadn't updated it in a long time, so I migrated my assets and stuff to webpack and did some stuff to kind of modernize a little bit. I decided I didn't want to go too far with the modernization, and kind of see how far I could get.Josh:A lot of people are using their blogs, rebuilding their blogs in JAMstack to kind of play with Gatsby or some of these newer front-end frameworks. I thought it would be fun to do kind of the opposite. See how close I could get to the performance that you see with one of these more modern frameworks, with just old school technology. I'm using just Jekyll and Turbolinks, and I got this cool prefetch script that will do prefetching of links if you hover over them with your mouse for 400 milliseconds or whatever, which kind of speeds up.Starr:Oh, cool.Josh:Really, it kind of turns it into a... It feels like a single page app, but it's just a webpage.Starr:That's really cool. I actually, fun fact, we had that at Honeybadger before we moved to Jekyll, we had a little prefetch thing.Josh:Yeah, I'm actually, I've been planning on-Starr:Not Jekyll, I meant Turbolinks.Josh:Turbolinks.Starr:Before we went to TurbolinksJosh:We have the pjax setup. I remember that, it was a jQuery prefetch plugin or something.Starr:Yeah, no, I wrote it.Josh:Did you write it? Okay.Starr:It was Starr's prefetch blue plate special.Josh:Yeah, that was cool.Starr:I eventually disabled it because it was hard to get right. I really got tricky after a while and I don't know. I was being too tricky, and it turns out, the world doesn't really appreciate that.Josh:I think that's why it hasn't been officially added to Turbolinks. When I was digging through, trying to figure out how to do it, which is what led my to this gist that someone made. There's a bunch of issues on the Turbolink's GitHub repo, talking about it. It's not that it will never get added, but I'm assuming it's a difficult thing to implement or something like that, for everyone. I don't know.Starr:I forget what the issues were. For blog, it seems like it would be pretty straightforward though, because it's just webpages.Josh:Yeah, it's working pretty well on mine. It's fun. I've been meaning to move that stack-Starr:I saw that you-Josh:... over to our blog, too. Eventually I'll apply the same optimizations to the Honeybadger website.Starr:Cool. We don't currently use Jekyll, are you talking about moving it to Jekyll as well?Josh:No, just the front end. It's simple to install Turbolinks and maybe some prefetching on things. And do some optimizations. Have you looked at PurgeCSS at all?Starr:No, I haven't, but I really like the name, so tell me what that is.Josh:It does what it says. Basically, it removes... So, it analyzes, once you build, if you have your HTML built already, or in the case of Jekyll if you're generating it. You build your HTML and your assets, like your CSS and stuff, then it analyzes all of your CSS usage. Then it purges the CSS that you're not using.Josh:Imagine if you're using Tailwind or Bootstrap or something, and you're importing the entire framework, right? Well, you're not necessarily using a lot of that framework, so you're having to download, everyone's downloading a bunch of useless CSS, basically. This removes the unwanted stuff.Starr:Is this something that is in webpack? How does it do that?Josh:It's a third party project, but they have a webpack plug-in. It just plugs in.Starr:Okay. So it's back-end code, though?Josh:Yeah.Starr:I thought for a second, because it has CSS in the name and a lot of times that means it's a CSS package, or whatever.Josh:Oh, yeah, no.Starr:Like Bootstrap, so I was like, "How is this doing?"Josh:This is a build tool.Starr:"What have they added to CSS since I last boned up on it?" I don't know.Josh:Yeah, it's a build. It's a build tool. Disclaimer, I'm new. I'm just starting to play with this, so if I butchered the description or something, I'm sorry. But as far as I know, that's what it does. It's pretty cool. It reduced... I forget, my CSS, the bundle wasn't huge to begin with, but I think it reduced it from six or 7k three to four. If you are importing something like a large CSS framework, I imagine that's a big savings.Starr:I have to ask, how does it know which CSS tags are being used and which ones aren't? Does it have to be used with a static s...

Show notes:Links:Build Your SaaS by Justin JacksonBasecamp Hill ChartsScrooge McDuckDesign Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented SoftwareDarkpatterns.orgHoneybadger.ioFull Transcription:Starr:So, how have you all been doing this week? I've been on vacation.Ben:This week has been an interesting week in the Curtis household, we discovered a water leak in our house, in the bathroom.Starr:Oh, my gosh. So when you say interesting, you're using it in the sort of like British way?Ben:Exactly.Starr:You mean like terrible.Ben:Exactly.Josh:Because, yeah, when you're in the middle of a pandemic-induced lockdown, the thing you really want is a water leak.Ben:Exactly. Yes. So, that has turned into quite the adventure, again in the British way. Yeah, plumber came, found the leak. It was a pipe in the wall. So, pro-tip, don't put pipes in your walls. So, yeah. Then, the mitigation crew came and demolished a good chunk of the bathrooms because actually this wall is the separation between two bathrooms in my house. So, two bathrooms were affected, not just one. So, it's...Josh:Ouch.Ben:It's been a week that's for sure, and it's not over yet.Starr:Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. You have any bathrooms left?Ben:No.Starr:Oh no. I was thinking all I have is two bathrooms too, so...Ben:Yeah, yeah. It's been... We got four people, two bathrooms... Well, kind of two bathrooms now. It's been interesting.Josh:And yeah. You said it's not going to be repaired until what June?Ben:Well, yeah. So, the mitigation guy was telling us that, "Yeah, we can do the demolition, and we can get you basically to a point where everything is safe. We'll put some sheeting on the walls where the holes are and things like that. But, we can't actually restore your bathrooms because we're under the lockdown right now with COVID." So...Josh:They can only do the essential part.Ben:Exactly, only the essential parts, not the cosmetic parts, which would be having an attached wall, right?Ben:So maybe I'll send a letter to the governor. I'll make a petition. Please, can I have a contractor come to my house and you know. If worse comes to worse.Josh:Are you going to be out with the demonstrators?Ben:I can just do it myself.Josh:Out with the demonstrators in Olympia? You got a big toilet-shaped picket sign or whatever?Ben:A plunger, yeah.Starr:I need my vanity!Ben:But, I'm happy to say that everyone that has come to my house has worn protective clothing, has had a mask on, and of course, we have masks on too because we don't want them to think that we're trying to get them sick, so. But, yeah, that's been nice calling them and saying, "Will you please be wearing a mask?" And "Oh, of course that's what we're doing these days." So, that's nice.Josh:Nice. Yeah, it's still kind of hit and miss on the masks around here. A lot of people are on it, and then there's a good number of people who aren't.Ben:Yeah, it just makes sense to me. I don't know, in a common sense kind of way. If you have something in front of your face that will trap droplets, that will help other people from getting sick in case you're sick. So, yeah, that's just a good idea. Let's do that.Starr:It's just what the deep state wants you to think then? You all are just sheep. You're sheep. I bet you even going for that 5G service on your phones... Okay, I'm not going to...Ben:Speaking of that, did you read the news about AT&T and the 5G this week?Starr:No, I didn't. I didn't. So, just skipping it and going straight to 6G?Ben:Well, the FCC, I think it was the FCC. I guess it might've been the FTC. But, anyway, one of the great federal organizations that we have came down on AT&T for advertising the 5G thing because it's not actually 5G. So, you can't actually tell people that it's 5G, slap on the wrist kind of stuff.Josh:I feel like they've gotten in trouble for that before with LTE and 4G.Ben:The funny part is AT&T is like okay, we'll take down the advertisements that say 5G. But, we're going to still show it on the phone. So, it's like okay, thanks AT&T. That's great, so... We won't lie to you on the billboard. We'll just lie to you on your phone.Josh:Yeah, but you've already bought the phone by that point. So, it's not false advertising.Ben:That's right, yeah.Starr:Oh, that's some universe-level thinking there, Josh.Starr:Well, so today I think we're going to talk about... Speaking about AT&T... Because when I was on AT&T, they always just raised prices on me. And so, we're talking about pricing. But, we're not raising prices on people. So, maybe I shouldn't have drawn that comparison. We're actually nothing like AT&T or-Josh:I thought you were going to talk about unlimited plans.Starr:Unlimited, yeah.Ben:Oh, yeah. Unlimited with an asterix.Starr:But, I'm out of the loop. I've been on vacation this week, which means that a time of COVID, when I am locked down with my family and I'm watching the kid half the time, that means I get to take an extra-long walk in the morning. That's my vacation. So, yeah, so I really don't know what's going on with pricing. Have we launched it yet? What's the deal? What're we doing?Josh:It's live.Starr:It's live? Oh my gosh.Josh:Yeah.Starr:I got to go look at it.Ben:Launched it this week.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, go check it out.Starr:Okay, oh this is going to be... It's like an unboxing video.Josh:It's the reveal.Ben:It's the reveal.Starr:Look at that. It's amazing. Oh my gosh. Oh look at that. You click on things and it updates the price live. That's some real nice JavaScript there doing that, or it could be CSS. I don't know because I've been on vacation.Josh:It's mostly CSS.Josh:It's a smattering of both.Ben:So, this is really Josh's initiative.Josh:We talked about it. This came out of our quarterly, our first remote quarterly conclave that we talked about a while back. And I think the reason that we initially... that we started talking about this was because of COVID and talking about steps we could take to help our customers out, help potentially stem the tide of either people not signing up or increased churn and that sort of thing. As it turns out, I think we're doing a lot better than we thought. We were kind of worried there for a little bit for that first month or so. I think everyone was, but for us anyway, it seems like things have kind of evened out and not a whole lot has changed in the revenue conversion department.Ben:I got to say I'm still worried because that's what I do.Josh:Yeah, right because we're not resting easily, but...Ben:But yes. We're definitely feeling better than we were a couple of months ago when things were just heading in a downward direction, right?Starr:Yeah, I'm feeling better, but I'm actually also kind of feeling worse because I don't know what's going on. Everything's terrible. The stock mar...

Show Notes:Links:Mike PerhamFull United FlightSidekiqFaktoryHeyaPatrick McKenzieTechstarsTinySeedRoy/SACHoneybadgerFull Transcript:Starr:What's on your wall behind you? You've got like a autographed jersey like a hockey jersey.Mike:Yeah, I'm I'm a soccer fan.Starr:Oh, a soccer jersey. I'm sorry.Mike:It's the Portland Timbers. Yes.Josh:The timbers, yeah.Mike:And it's not looking good for us playing in 2020.Josh:Yeah.Starr:It's looking good for anybody?Mike:Some people more than others. Yeah.Josh:I never... I thought it'd be cool to make it to one of those games I've never been. I've never been to any sporting event in Portland, even though like...Mike:Well, I'm a season ticket holder. So Josh, if you ever want to come on down and we can go to a game together, I'm in.Josh:That would be awesome.Starr:Oh my gosh, this is great. I'm glad we're recording this. This is like networking. This is like stuff happening. This is like deals happening.Josh:This is actually like, when people are like seeing each other going to events.Mike:When you invite guests onto your show magic happens.Starr:I know, right?Josh:Yeah. Yeah, Ben and I have been talking about snowboarding too someday. And Mike and I have been talking about snowboarding as well. So that's another networking opportunity. Maybe for next winter.Mike:Yeah, in fact, I had a pass to meadows and they said that they're closed down so you can't use the pass and so people were freaking out.Josh:Yeah, they didn't refund any anything, did they?Mike:They say that you can use your punches in the first three weeks of next season.Josh:First three weeks.Mike:Yeah.Ben:Sounds kind of bogus. I mean, that's like the-Mike:So if it doesn't snow, well, your out of luck.Josh:Yeah.Ben:It sounds a lot like the airlines policy to get a credit rather than a refund.Josh:By the way the season is starting three weeks early.Ben:Starting the season in July.Mike:It starts in August.Ben:That reminds me of a tweet that I saw this week. I think it was and someone was they tweeted picture of themselves on an airplane and the airplane was full.Josh:Oh, I saw that one.Ben:Three by three.Josh:Where they're in the middle seat or something or?Ben:I don't remember but. But they were on a United flight. And I'm thinking what do you expect? Like it's United of course you're going to have every seat full on a United flight. They're not going to care about Coronavirus.Starr:Okay, so I feel like I should do like a record scratch now. And we should stop and actually say to our loyal listeners, I'm sure you're thinking, well, what's going on? There seems to be like one more person. And that's because there is. We have a special guest today, Mike Perham. And if you don't know Mike, he is very well known in the open source community for such projects as Sidekiq and Faktory. Are there any other projects?Mike:That's about it.Starr:That's about it?Mike:I've only got so many hours in the day Starr.Starr:What's the matter? I thought you hustled, I thought you knew how to hustle.Josh:That you're a hustler.Mike:I'm getting old. In my old age. I'm getting old so I'm slowing down.Starr:I mean, that's fair.Mike:Yeah.Josh:What is Sidekiq anyway, Mike?Mike:Sidekiq is the number one universal way of doing background jobs on Ruby. Except no competition.Starr:There you go.Josh:Nice.Mike:And Faktory is taking my background job knowledge and patterns and bringing it to every programming language. So you can use Faktory with JavaScript, with Python, PHP, Elixir, those sorts of languages.Ben:Yeah, naturally, we're big fans of Sidekiq here at Honeybadger, we use it quite a lot.Josh:Yes, Sidekiq since the beginning.Mike:Y'all were, yeah, one of my first pro customers along with TravisCI was also a very early pro customer. So thank you very much.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah, so Mike is a... Mike knows a lot about making a living from open source. And so we're having him on to talk about that about little bootstrap life because he's a fellow bootstrapper. And, I don't know, we have palled around with Mike throughout the history of our company. And yes, we're just going to have an open discussion but vaguely generally centered around open source, bootstrappy stuff.Josh:And we're also just all losing our minds being stuck at home and it's nice to see another human face or three of them.Mike:Yeah, the listeners probably don't know, but I generally go up to Honeybadger HQ, well, in Vancouver, like once a quarter or so, I'll go out there and have lunch with you guys. So since we're about 20 miles apart, I'll generally go up there and say hi and hang out with the gang and have lunch together. But we had to cancel our last meeting because it happened right as the virus was picking up.Josh:Yeah, this was pre virus life.Mike:Right. So it's good to catch up remotely now.Starr:Mike I'm sure the question that all of our listeners are wanting to have answered is how do you manage to create an open source project that basically is a required piece of infrastructure for every Rails project, and then monetize that.Mike:Well, you start off by scratching your own itch, so to speak. And then it turns out, everybody in the Ruby world has that exact same itch.Starr:Okay. That's sounds easy I should do that.Mike:Well, I'm a big believer in eating your own dog food is the common expression. But you solve your own problem first. And if that problem and your solution deliver a lot of value, and you can productize it, then boom, all of a sudden, you've got something which could potentially have some income around it. And of course Heya is your guys's latest thing. But the opportunities there for people to solve their own problem, and if they think outside the box and want to make it more of a sustainable long term thing, they can build a business around it, and that's exactly what I did with Sidekiq when I started it.Mike:I said to myself, this is going to be popular if I do it well. And it's going to require a lot of my time to support people. And so I almost immediately started doing financial experiments around how can I make money off of this thing so that I can, money, I still believe money is the best way to incentivize people to do something. So if this is my full time job, then I'm going to do it and I'm going to support people.Ben:Can we just rewind just a little bit? Because I want to talk about that scratching your itch thing. I want you to talk about like because yours wasn't the first background job system that came out for the Ruby world, right? There was at the time there was Delayed Job and there was Resque, those I think were the popular ones at a time.Ben:So can you ...