Gender: A Wider Lens

This is Part 1 of a 2-part series on desistance. The difference between desistance and detransition is quite stark and in this episode, Sasha and Stella focus on the complex experience of desistance. How might a child come to desist? What facilitates or hinders this process, and what complicated feelings go along with this experience? Sasha and Stella also discuss the changes that have arisen in recent years and how compared to previous generations, society today responds very differently to children with gender dysphoria. In the next episode on desistance, EP 80, Sasha and Stella will help answer the question: How can I tell if my ROGD child may be desisting?Links:Cantor’s analysis of the desistance literature: http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html Follow-up study of boys with Gender Identity Disorder: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/fullExtended NotesThe word desistance means a person no longer wants to transition.Stella shares her journey of feeling as if she was a girl and also a boy.It can be horrifying when people don’t understand how one feels about their gender.Attempting to will yourself into a new reality.With puberty comes consciousness of reality.For thousands of years, people repressed their sexuality and gender and lived a lie.Growing up in today’s technology-driven world is vastly different from being a teen in the past.There is a correlation between gender non-conforming children and being gay, lesbian, or bi-sexual.A 2021 study showed that 80% of dysphoric boys desisted and 64% were gay.Stella shares her thoughts on This Is How It Always Is: A Novel by Laurie Frankel.Desistance does happen and often teens are grateful they didn’t make permanent changes.Desistance requires a reckoning.Gender issues have been polarized in political realms.Stella wanted to be powerful and feminine when she was 17.A person’s peer group can make it easier or harder for them to desist.People flip-flop their identities all the time.Taking a deeper look into fluidity between identities.Navigating the shame that can accompany questioning gender identity.Desistance can be a coming-of-age process.This podcast is sponsored by ReIME and Genspect. Visit https://rethinkime.org/ and https://genspect.org/ to learn more.For more about our show: https://linktr.ee/WiderLensPod This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe

In this second episode on detransition (following from EP 74), Sasha and Stella dig into several pieces of research on detransition experiences. They discuss surveys and case studies and analyze the data which is forming a picture of why detransition happens and what appropriate therapeutic care might look like for this vulnerable group. Themes emerge such as misattributing distress to the body’s sex, unprocessed grief and trauma, medical complications, and dissatisfaction with medical transition.Links:Genspect Analysis of detrans Reddit survey: https://genspect.org/analysis-of-reddit-detrans-survey/Pablo Exposito-Campos Detransition Paper: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2020.1869126Lisa Littman’s Research Papers: https://littmanresearch.com/publications/Littman on Gender: A Wider Lens Podcast — EP 52: https://gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/52-gender-dysphoria-detransition-research-a-conversation-w-dr-lisa-littmanGenspect Highlights of Lisa’s Paper: https://genspect.org/detransition-highlights-of-dr-littmans-latest-peer-reviewed-study/Case Study: “Maya,” Lisa Marchiano https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-5922.12711 The Seventh Penis, Bob Withers: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25989331/Detransition-Related Needs & Support Survey, Vandenbussche: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918369.2021.1919479Detrans reddit survey (not formal data) https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/srpp27/the_rdetrans_demographic_survey_screened_and/Taking the Lid off the Box: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330911243_'Taking_the_lid_off_the_box'_The_value_of_extended_clinical_assessment_for_adolescents_presenting_with_gender_identity_difficultiesExtended NotesThe 1% regret rate stat is misleading.There is no clear understanding of how many people change their minds about transitioning.Gender dysphoria is different than sex dysphoria.Some are disappointed because they say the physical reality of transitioning wasn't very satisfying.We are all vain. We all care about how we look.There are medical complications with transition surgery.Does a relationship to sexual orientation keep someone in a trans-identity longer?Autistic people might be more likely to remain transitioned.In one study, 70% of respondents said they... This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe

Lisa Duval is a licensed clinical psychologist who has worked with children, teens, and families for over 30 years. She is also the mother of a “fiercely gender-questioning” 18-year-old daughter, who has been male-identified for the last 5 years. She works with ROGD teens in an exploratory, empowering, feminist, and body-positive way, affirming their beautiful, complicated selves but not simply their trans identities. We start with Lisa describing the old DSM multiaxial system, which was actually discarded in the current version, version 5. In Axis 2, we had cognitive and personality disorders, including borderline personality disorder. Listeners often ask me and Stella about potential links between borderline personality constellations and gender issues, so we were really excited to speak with Lisa about this. For starters, Lisa shares why borderline personality disorder should rarely ever be diagnosed in teens, though sometimes you might hear psychiatrists say a child has some “borderline traits.” We delve into how common, and almost quintessential, these traits are as a part of normal adolescent development.Lisa then explains a fascinating theory: not only are kids with these traits perhaps more vulnerable to ROGD but also that aspects of gender identity ideology iatrogenically create borderline dynamics in dysphoric kids. In other words, gender ideology and a dogmatic affirmation approach could be causing and exacerbating these borderline traits. We also have a chance to explore the overlap between expressions of Autism and Borderline, and Lisa comments on a previous discussion we had about this with Dr. Susan Bradley in Ep. 65. At the end of the episode, Lisa shares a really interesting way she and her clients have been able to circumvent the issue of picking a new cross-sex name while exploring gender identity.Extended NotesLisa explains the personality disorders in Axis 2.Lisa grew up with parents who were diagnosed with personality disorders.If you work with people at a young age you can make a difference.Personality disorders can be trauma-based or genetically sourced.Diagnosing a disorder or behavior during the teenage years is not advised.Teenagers may naturally have a persecution fantasy.Falsely diagnosing gender dysphoria creates a personality structure that is in opposition to integration.A borderline personality disorder is in between neurosis and psychosis.Most gender therapists believe they are helping children.Lisa shares ways ROGD parents can connect with their kids and how clinicians can work with Cluster B people.Examining incredibly liberal parents and the response from teens who want their own thing.Lisa stresses the importance of giving children the agency to figure things out on their own.Kids are hearing from multiple sources that if their parents don’t support them the parents are wrong.Lisa pioneered the concept of an iatrogenic personality disorder.For children, it is important for them to integrate the different parts of themselves.Strategies for integration and gender roles that encourage children to maintain all sides of themselves.This podcast is sponsored by ReIME and Genspect. Visit https://rethinkime.org/ and https://genspect.org/ to learn more.For more about our show: https://linktr.ee/WiderLensPod This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe

In today’s episode, Stella and I begin our discussion of detransition. This is an incredibly rich, important, and complex topic, and we certainly don’t think we can lift up EVERY aspect of it. But in this episode, and episode 76 (the one after next), we’ll begin to explore detransition. Today, you’ll hear our initial observations and some random musings. We touch on some of the patterns and dynamics we’ve observed and how things have evolved in the world of detransition over the last several years. We highlight the vast differences between people’s experiences of detransition and how sometimes, the pathway into a trans identity may impact the pathway out. In episode 76, we’ll start diving into the literature and research we now have about detransition. We’ll look at a few important papers, surveys, and studies and what they can tell us about this growing population. Links:Detrans Voices:https://www.detransvoices.org/ Post Trans:https://post-trans.com/ Detrans Canada:https://detranscanada.com/ Detransition Sweden:https://www.detransinfo.se/ Detransition Russia:https://vk.com/detransition GCCANhttps://www.gccan.org/ Detrans Reddit:https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/ Life Detransitionshttps://lifedetransitions.com/ Genspect (Beyond Transition Initiatives):https://genspect.org/ Beyond Transition:https://genspect.org/beyond/ Blood and Visions:https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/30792924-blood-and-visions Autobiography in Five Chapters:https://www.habitsforwellbeing.com/poem-autobiography-in-five-chapters/  Extended NotesStella and Sasha are exploring topics around detransitioning. If you have topic suggestions and even recommended guests, please reach out!Detransitioning is a complex world. There isn’t a simple phenomenon. Stella is working on a program called “Beyond Transition.”Everyone in the trans world is aware there are detransitioners, but they’re wildly misunderstood.Sasha talks about her personal experience with detransitioners.Stella understands in the past that it was very difficult to celebrate with someone who has detransitioned. This new cohort she’s working with is being celebrated.If you feel masculine and/or feminine, you suddenly have to dress for this personality.Sasha has noticed more people becoming more vain. Is this due to social media?What kind of person “suddenly” transitions? Why does someone put so much emphasis on looking female (make-up, hair, etc) only to completely switch?After being in the... This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe

Joe Burgo is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst who’s been in practice for almost 40 years. He also writes books for a popular audience mostly focused on shame and narcissism. In this episode Joe explains how a sense of shame can be a root cause of gender dysphoria and how gender transition can be idealized as a “cure” for all kinds of shame – gay shame, outsider shame, survivor of sexual abuse shame, feeling weird or different shame, and so on. The impact of the medical model on society is also lifted up as Joe describes how his depth-approach to psychological pain is often dismissed in a world seeking a solution for every problem and a pill for every ill.  Resources Joe’s blog: http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/ Joe’s books:  Why Do I Do That? Psychological Defense Mechanisms and the Hidden Ways They Shape Our Lives http://www.amazon.com/Why-Do-That-Psychological-Mechanisms/dp/0988443120 The Narcissist You Know: Defending Yourself Against Extreme Narcissists in an All-About-Me World http://www.amazon.com/Narcissist-You-Know-Narcissists-All-About-Me/dp/14767… Building Self-Esteem: How Learning from Shame Helps Us to Grow https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0997592028/ref=as_li_qf_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF…  This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe

This episode was made especially for anybody who might feel a sense of regret or anxiety about their medical transition. This does not mean they should necessarily detransition. Rather, it means that they are undergoing a reckoning with themselves. While some people choose to detransition, others are deeply ambivalent about transition but may feel they are “at a point of no return” and choose to remain in a trans identity. Others may find the detransition process too difficult and disappointing and decide to retransition. Sasha and Stella explore the blurry lines between terms like “transition” “detransition” and “transition regret” and hope to help listeners feel hopeful and find healing beyond these narrow concepts.Links:What I wish I’d known when I was 19 and had sex reassignment surgery, Corinna Cohn: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/04/11/i-was-too-young-to-decide-about-transgender-surgery-at-nineteen/  Hormone Hangover: The Opposite of GD  https://hormonehangover.substack.com/p/the-opposite-of-gender-dysphoria?s Wherever You Go, There You Are, Jon Kabat-Zinn  https://amzn.to/3sGI6qjExtended NotesMake the best decision for yourself at the time.Sasha changes her mind about the argument made by Alice Dreger.Stella shares her experience of working in addiction and her patients’ lost years.Some experiences make a person feel like an outsider in their peer group.The importance of speaking with someone who relates to you.The Beyond Transition project encompasses all the different layers of transition.Transitioning or detransitioning is nobody's business but the individuals.Therapy and practices for the body help people get in tune with their physiology.For those feeling overwhelmed, consider what you can do today, not tomorrow, just today.Learning to be patient and dealing with setbacks requires mental flexibility.Sharing a transition experience can assist others with their journeys.The reasons behind self-destructive behaviors.Navigating the multiple pathways to healing.Tools to understand influence and mitigate self-blame.Stella shares the beautiful story of a woman who detransitioned.Getting back to nature and the calming effects of pets.Only you know what you need. Do what you have to do.This podcast is sponsored by ReIME and Genspect. Visit https://rethinkime.org/ and https://genspect.org/ to learn more.For more about our show: https://linktr.ee/WiderLensPod This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe

Jesse Singal was instrumental in shining a light on the defamation of Dr. Ken Zucker in 2016. Then, two years later, he became even more widely known in the gender world for his seminal, long-form piece in the Atlantic, “When a Child Says She’s Trans.” In this conversation, we discuss flaws in the science of gender dysphoria treatment and the misrepresentation of research findings in the media. We also look at the recent pronouncements from the Biden Administration, new state legislation, and Health and Human Services proposals. We discuss how all of this impacts our understanding of complex issues and shapes the American political landscape around gender today.Links:Jesse’s Recent book: The Quick Fix: Why Fad Psychology Can’t Cure our Social Ills https://amzn.to/3yIVwpn   Researchers Found Puberty Blockers And Hormones Didn’t Improve Trans Kids’ Mental Health At Their Clinic. Then They Published A Study Claiming The Opposite. (Updated) https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/researchers-found-puberty-blockers?s=r  What the Media Gets Wrong on Gender Reassignment:   https://spectatorworld.com/topic/media-wrong-gender-reassignment-transgender/   Civil rights discrimination providers - gender affirming care:  https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/hhs-ocr-notice-and-guidance-gender-affirming-care.pdf  The Cut https://www.thecut.com/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html  https://www.thecut.com/2016/01/false-charge-helped-bring-down-kenneth-zucker.html   When a Child Says She’s Trans:  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/07/when-a-child-says-shes-trans/561749/  Extended NotesJesse explains how he became involved in publishing transgender articles.Journalism allows Jesse to follow a subject to the core of an issue.Before Jesse became known for his Atlantic piece, he was already interested in psychology fads.Stella enjoys self-help books.In his new book, The Quick Fix, Jesse argues that Americans turn to fad psychology because the real problems are too big to be solved.Researchers have been known to give credence to work that does not warrant it.Bad journalism abounds and Jesse often follows up bad stories with the facts.Stella states that maybe the Dutch study should be more thoroughly examined by Jesse.Writing and publishing articles on gender is complicated.Jesse says Republicans are taking the gender issue to the state level.Politicians have no idea of what the real science around the issue is.Sasha asks Jesse if he believes this to be a medical scandal.In 1972, Sweden was the first country to bring in gender recognition.Many studies This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe

We’re back! Sasha and Stella update listeners with how they’ve spent their six-week break and jump right into discussing the plight of parents whose kids are experiencing gender distress. The first-ever in-person Wider Lens retreat for parents was held in Maryland in March 2022. This was a profound experience for the attendees and also for Sasha and Stella, who reflect today upon the common themes picked up at the retreat. These include medical negligence, parental guilt, and the transformative and comforting power of connection that emerged between parents who truly understand each other. Forthcoming plans for Season Two are also highlighted in this episode.Extended NotesProof the mental health lesson of “take a break” can have a positive effect.Stella describes how she spent her time away from the podcast.Struggling with writing, Sasha found inspiration in Patricia Goodson’s book, Becoming an Academic Writer.Sasha is creating an environment that is conducive to calm, mindful writing.The interest and impact of the Wider Lens in-person retreat.Sasha calls out the medical professionals who neglect their jobs.It was a warm reception at the retreat as parents mentioned the podcast. Stella felt like she was meeting old friends.At the retreat, parents from all different backgrounds were united by sharing their stories, some for the first time.A common thread between the families was that therapists had recommended social or medical transitions without performing proper assessments.Meeting in person brought a sense of community to parents as similar patterns emerged.Parents often blame themselves but they need to cut themselves some slack. There is no formula.Empathy and understanding are the foundational building blocks of healing.The needs of parents who have boys are profoundly different from girls’ gender dysphoria.Both Stella and Sasha noticed that a lot of sibling tension emerged during the retreat.There is not a lot of family-oriented therapy around gender.Parents who worry about their parenting are probably in the top 5% of caregivers.There is a requirement for parents and that is to let go and trust the process.It is easy for parents to lose themselves when their child feels lost.Identity can trap us in very dangerous ways.During her time off, Sasha has been re-exploring Tao.Sasha recommends The Parent's Tao Te Ching: Ancient Advice for Modern Parents,by William Martin to Stella.There will be another retreat in Arizona at the end of October 2022.Sasha shares the new ideas for forthcoming podcasts.Stella is further exploring the state of the nation in the United States.2022 could be a pivotal year for gender. This podcast is sponsored by ReIME and Genspect. Visit Rethinkime.org and Genspect.org to learn more. For more about our show: Linktr.ee/WiderLensPod This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe

We have completed eleven interviews and today we analyze the second half of our Pioneers Series. Stella and I discuss the psychological and emotional impact of some recent interviews. We review the shocking discussions we’ve had with several of our guests and reflect on the flawed Dutch Protocol, which is often held up as the gold standard in childhood dysphoria medical treatment. Dr. Anne Lawrence’s reflections on Autogynephilia and the extreme measures she feels some might take are discussed in the context of the Dutch researcher’s interview. We also think back about the role Az Hakeem’s groups will play when we examine this period in hindsight, years down the line. Perhaps Susan Bradley is right about ASD being a large explanatory factor in understanding gender dysphoria more broadly. We also look at the Samoan Prime Minister’s response to the Olympic Weightlifting competition: arguably the leaders of integrating male femininity into their society, the Samonas had sharp words for the Pacific Games Council’s admission of trans MtF lifter, Laurel Hubbard, in competing against two Samoan women. We’re wrapping up this season and we’ll be returning to our regular weekly programs with our next episode on May 20th. If you are a Patron, thank you! And don’t fret: we’ll continue recording our weekly Q&As and posting them on Patreon. Thanks for listening! Extended NotesStella and Sasha, being therapists, naturally ask questions to gain understanding of one’s thinking. They talk about the psychological and emotional toll this series had on them.They first analyze their conversation with Thomas Steensma and Annelou de Vries. Sasha shares what stood out to her.Stella also touches on her thoughts and why she sees avoidance tactics as anti-psychological.They explain what the gender dysphoria scale is all about.The entire premise of the puberty blockers experiment is based on the so-called success of the gender dysphoria scale. They both share their disagreements with these methods.Sasha talks about the unethical assumptions made with their studies.They move on to analyze their conversation with Anne Lawrence and how both their mouths dropped when she talked about castration.Stella asks why obsession is not being brought into this rather than just focusing on it as a gender identity topic.Sasha shares her thoughts about the dismissive counseling she has noticed in general.They both talk about their understanding of the depth of Anne’s suffering through her experience.Sasha evaluates Anne’s actions and responses as an obsession to a rejection of a body part, which is common in most Aspy people.Stella thinks there is still so much to be done on autistic diagnosis brainwork and she is looking forward to the next 15‒20 years.Everyone has a very high regard for the Dutch model, implying that they are being very careful but they both disagree.Sasha recalls how Steensma and de Vries may have perceived them as activists in their line of questioning.Stella and Sasha share more feedback about the Dutch study if they truly wanted it to be neutral and inclusive.What if the whole premise of the gender dysphoria scale is flawed? Sasha asks in retrospect.We shouldn’t really change something unless we have a really clear understanding of what the current state of affairs is. Stella reflects on this against puberty blockers.They share how off-putting it was for them to talk about the human body in a flippant manner.What if Jazz Jennings was put on this gender dysphoria scale? Stella and Sasha talk about their disappointment further.Stella mentions Az Hakim and how she admires his approach vs. the rigid coldness of the so-called experts.Psychotherapy vs. Bodily Autonomy. Sasha compares the difference between their... This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe

This is the last episode in our pioneers series and the second interview with Dr. Paul Vasey. If you haven’t heard our conversation with Paul in episode 57, I recommend you go back and listen to that one first, as we build upon many of the ideas we introduced there. Today we continue reflecting on the way Western activism interacts with research and the interpretation of the fa’afafine, the muxe, and other third-gender individuals from different countries. We talk about the implications of the fact that the fa’afafine, for example, don’t try to identify as women and whether there are conflicting rights issues in Samoa. Paul also explains how Western funding organizations can end up imposing foreign concepts onto other cultures. We even touch on the implications for things like puberty blockers and early medical intervention. It was a real pleasure to wrap up our series with Paul and we hope you’ll enjoy this interview and stick around next week for the post-series analysis with me and Stella. Links:“What can the Samoan ‘Fa’afafine’ teach us about the Western concept of gender identity disorder in childhood?” by Paul Vasey and Nancy Bartlett (2007).Pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17951883/ Extended NotesStella and Sasha reflect on the last episode they had with Paul, having now the time to digest what they’ve learned so far in this series.What is the implication of the fa’afafine to have their own gender category?Fa’afafines having their own gender role consequently makes gender dysphoria uncommon in these cultural settings.Paul talks about sports teams and how the fa’afafine participate in them as an example.What is the Samoan’s opinion about today’s phenomenon of trans women competing in international sports?Paul shares the impact the western culture has with the fa’afafine and the common questions he gets from them.What is the most important thing we can learn from the Samoan culture?Paul is skeptical about the imposition of ideas from other cultures to work when they don’t develop organically.Gender-diverse individuals in non-Western cultures are commonly depicted in idealized terms but there is no such thing as a gender utopia. Paul talks about how he thinks that’s not the reality of their everyday lives.What are the points of difference between fa’afafine and muxe? Paul shares what they are.The similarities between fa’afafine and muxe mean there is a biological structure to same-sex attraction that can be culturally universal.Sasha asks Paul how he addresses cultural relativism between different cultures.Paul does not suggest that either conceptual framework for understanding male femininity and same-sex attraction is better or worse than the other. Each has its own benefits and costs.In Samoa, male same-sex attraction doesn’t really mean anything. Paul explains this further.Paul also talks about the statistics between Western gay people vs fa’afafine vs. muxe and their implications.How do cultural influences contribute to ROGD? Paul shares his insights.Talking about cross-cultural context, Paul highlights the importance of historical change through time in terms of what boyhood femininity means.Paul uses the term female gynephilia as exclusive and explains why.Paul mentions Paul Bailey and what he said about having less flexibility in men and what that implicates.It’s natural for cultures to interact with each other and it’s natural to exchange ideas and concepts in order to evolve. But what happens when one culture imposes on another?Paul often finds a lot of people who are outsiders of This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com/subscribe