Geeking Out with Adriana Villela

It's a very special episode of Geeking Out! We were live at KubeHuddle on May 7th in Toronto, Canada for a mental health panel featuring host Adriana Villela, joined by Tim Banks, Lian Li, Diana Pham, and Marino Wijay. We discuss three key topics: 1. What are some of your indications that you or your co-workers are suffering? 2. How can we prioritize & take care of our mental health, while advocating for others to do the same? 3. What changes in the industry and our environments would be beneficial to mental health going forward? We close off with some audience questions!

Geeking Out will be doing a LIVE episode at the KubeHuddle Conference in Toronto, Canada, on May 7th at 16:25. We will be doing a very special mental health panel featuring Tim Banks, Marino Vijay, Diana Pham, and Lian Li. You can catch us either live in-person, or streaming on one of our socials: YouTube, X, or LinkedIn. For links to these, go to https://bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:Helen Shen is a lifelong learner who believes in balancing strategic and tactical IT solutions to maximum value delivery and time to market without jeopardizing long term growth and scalability. She is a technology leader with finance domain knowledge in retail banking, capital markets, and wealth management. She's been responsible of major IT development initiatives over $1M, and has successfully modernized applications from monolithic architectures to API architecture, and has worked on migrating on-premise assets to the cloud.Find our guest on:LinkedInFind us on:All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingoutAll of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillelaTranscript:ADRIANA: Hey y'all, welcome to Geeking Out. The podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery. DevOps, Observability, reliability and everything in between. I'm your host Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today I have Helen Shen. Welcome, Helen.HELEN: Hi everyone. Hi everyone.ADRIANA: Hey, it's so nice to have you on the show. Now, first things first, where are you calling from?HELEN: I'm calling from a small town outside of Ottawa. It's called Carlton Place.ADRIANA: Awesome. Yay. Another Canadian. Cool. Well, we're gonna get started with some lightning round questions before we get into the meaty bits. So are you ready? All right, let's do this. Okay, first question: are you left handed or right handed?HELEN: Right handed.ADRIANA: All right. iPhone or Android?HELEN: iPhone.ADRIANA: Mac, Linux or windows?HELEN: Mac, Linux and windows.ADRIANA: Ooh, all of them. Awesome. I love it. What's your favorite programming language?HELEN: Java.ADRIANA: Awesome. Dev or ops?HELEN: DevOps.ADRIANA: Awesome.ADRIANA: I've had a few people who haveADRIANA: answered DevOps as well, so I love it, I love it. No wrong answers either way. Okay. JSON or YAML?HELEN: JSON.ADRIANA: Ooh, I think, I think you might be one of the few on camp JSON so far. I should, I need to do a poll.HELEN: At some point I started embracing YAML. Well, but that space got me.ADRIANA: Oh yeah, yeah, I know. I've definitely gotten burned too many times by the, by the indentation on YAML.HELEN: At the beginning stage, the learning of troubleshooting, whole night with my espresso and then figure out it's a space.ADRIANA: Yeah, I know, right? Yeah. It's like why do you hate me so much? I feel ya. Okay, two more questions left. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?HELEN: Text.ADRIANA: Alright. And finally, what is your superpower?HELEN: My superpower is make everyone else to have superpower.ADRIANA: Ooh, I like that. That's very meta. Amazing. Amazing. Well, thanks so much for doing the lightning round questions. Now it's time to get into the meaty bits. So I'm very excited for this conversation because, you know, we had our pre chat a couple weeks ago and I feel like the ideas just started flowing on this and so I'm very, I'm very stoked for our topic of discussion. So I think when we were chatting initially, one of the things that you brought up was the importance of asking why.ADRIANA: So can you elaborate on that a little bit?HELEN: Yes, yes. So I have been through career in different organizations doing different type of technology, different tech stacks, different solutions. And one thing I found that make me going through the success of the project, the deliverables, the customer satisfaction, everything is because of that question. Why? Why are we doing this? Because using DevOps as an example, why are we doing this? Not only because it's cool, even though it is cool. And not every organization may be ready for DevOps, but why? I remember at my junior stage that I took automation for granted. And when I got into projects that embrace agility and automation, I was pumped, I was motivated, I was ready to go. And I didn't understand at that time the word, "fit for purpose". I didn't quite get it.I heard it, I acknowledged it, but I didn't...I can't say that I fully understood the context of it. Then through different experiences, different projects, and also different growth in myself, then I started to use that word and I can see the same reaction from my team members or more junior team members. Then I start to realize, okay, they have been through what I've been through and what I can offer is that, sharing that "why?" Why do we need fit for purpose? Why is there need for such process? Why is it so difficult? There is a reason why it's so difficult, and is there a reason that it had to be like this, or there is a chance for improvement? So even though we're talking about ways to enhance experience, customer experience, user experience, developer experience, we really truly have to understand why. What's our problem definition? What are we trying to solve? Then the journey will become much easier.ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree. Now for our audience, can you define what you mean by, "fit for purpose"?HELEN: Yes. So using a technology project as an example, I don't know if some of you might experience that you are participating in multiple projects, and one project is embracing agile, one project is embracing waterfall. And even though by the book in Agile you should be a consistent part, 100%, you might not get into that. You might have to participate multiple projects in different ways. Some are all manual, some are half automated, some are fully automated. And while you are especially for a single contributor in the project, sometimes it's very hard to switch that context and fit for purpose. Yeah, and what I mean by "fit for purpose" is to actually understand from the customer perspective, management perspective of what is your goal trying to solve and why it has to be this way. And sometimes the answer could be that this because the architecture, because the environment organization is very big and complex and to ensure the quality and audit requirement is the best. Waterfall approach...maybe? On the other hand, though, it could be we don't have the resource, the company didn't have that culture comfort level yet, right?And even so, there are different reasons. And the fit or purpose is how the whole team, not just you or what's the best, what's the coolest is for the whole team plus the customers to make that whole decision or the outcome of our process, our decisions to go in which way and each project might be different. The reason is that you do need to hold different mindsets and different approach. However, understanding that why and the fit for process, sorry, fit for purpose mindset, then you actually make your context switching much easier. Because we do know we talk, we often see that context switching waste time. However, it's unavoidable by knowing that why it helps you switch that contacts and navigate much easier and efficiently. Actually, I'm not saying we should stop from improving ourselves, but I think what are we trying to improve? What's the best approach to improve? What's the best DevOps approach, etcetera. It really depends on the context of your project and then find that fit.ADRIANA: Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that because I found in so many instances in my life, like as a developer, sometimes you're told to do things, right? And it's so easy to be in your little developer bubble, especially when you're a more junior person, where it's like, whatever, I do care, I just want to get my stuff done. And so, like, you know, we can be perfectly content with, with just doing what we're told. But I think it does us a disservice to not ask why. Because why is it that I'm doing the thing? Like, you know, I was chatting with my husband and he was talking about how he came up with like this big architecture for the stuff that he's working on. And he says it's so frustrating sometimes dealing with some of the folks that he works with because they don't understand the bigger picture of what they're trying to build. They're just working on this little piece. And so because they don't understand the full context, then it's harder to ask meaningful questions, right?And also, if you don't understand why you're building something, I think it's a lot harder to like, you know, you just sort of accept the architecture for granted...like, you take it for granted and then that ends up becoming a problem because, what if, like, the original direction wasn't correct, right. But you don't understand it. You're not going to question it. When you understand it, you can think about it. Oh, yeah. Well, this doesn't make sense. Why are we doing it this way?HELEN: You have a good point. However, I noticed that in my journey there are rarely, rarely. It might be like one off case, but rarely. People don't care about one. It's just that they may, they may be in their world focusing so much that they might forget. And I think, I think this is the leadership call that I would say that as a good leader, I think they should embrace this mindset by making this opportunity more visible and approachable to the team members. Because a lot of time, I think developer doesn't even realize that. And I think usually I would expect that especially leaders, definitely, even the senior managers ,would open that door to show, especially for developers when they're focusing, we respect their time, we respect their focus, we respect their expertise. However, this is the contribution you're making. This is the impact you're made most of the time. When that opportunity and the vision, the values are presented to them, it's a different story.ADRIANA: Right. So are you saying then like it's kind of up to also like the, these folks in leadership positions to kind of incentivize to force to ask the why? And I think that's so, such a great habit to get into because we should always be questioning things like we need to be curious. Curiosity is what makes us learn.HELEN: Right, exactly. And that's how we challenge the status quo in a productive way, in my opinion.ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, like it's, it's so important too, because like, sometimes, you know, when you're, when you work in a large organization and certain decisions are taken. Right. And it's, it's so easy to get mad, right? Like people, like, what are they doing? I hate them. But, you know, I think if we took the time to, to question it, to not just wonder why, but ask why of our leadership, I think it would be, I think it would be helpful as well because I think it can, I think it can calm any nerves, right. And I think part of it is we have to get into this habit though, of asking why of our leadership because I think sometimes in certain situations it can be very intimidating. Like you're in a town hall and, you know, there are always like brazen people who will ask questions at town halls, but then there's also like the tons of people who are just sitting there in the corner. Like, I have questions but I don't want to ask. And I think like, empowering folks to ask why and making it a safe place to ask why, I think is really important too, right?HELEN: Yes, totally, totally. I remember that it took me quite a few years to feel comfortable asking questions in tech. So I can totally relate to that. But I do want to say that sometimes it could be an opportunity that we don't know why or even when it's not safe to ask why because of certain culture. It does feel a bit awkward. It's bad. But what I like to remind myself is everything's an opportunity.ADRIANA: Yes.HELEN: So as long as I'm here to contribute, I know this is the current climate and okay, people don't like to be asked why, but I do want to know because I have that thirst and that helps me to perform better, that helps my team to perform better, especially being in a management role. I think this is crucial. And sometimes you do run into a situation that's not so pretty. However, I take it as an opportunity that maybe they're not comfortable yet. And then there's so many opportunities and ways that we can navigate ourselves. And at the end of the day, I find this is not only the gain for the organization, it's also gained for self in terms of your career as well. Because then you grow professionally on how to solve these problems. And again, there's no right and wrong answer. Just like the lightning questions you asked at the beginning, but then you get more comfortable to it and that's your growth.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's all about being curious.HELEN: Yes, yes, yes.ADRIANA: Awesome. I absolutely love it. And you know, like, you know, you've mentioned that you currently work as a manager now. How do you find, having been an individual contributor in the past, having been wearing the developer, the developer hat, how is it wearing the developer hat versus wearing the manager hat? Was it a big clash for you? Was it natural progression for you?HELEN: How was it? I miss being a developer, I'll be honest on that. However, I acknowledge my superpower that I mentioned is that because of my personality or the way that one thing I find is the compassion and empathy is a big thing. Because I understand my thought as a developer and understand my team members thoughts and if you truly care for them and actually enable them and, you know, emphasizing, why are we doing this? Why change management? Need to go through 20 layers of approval? But navigating that together as a team member makes me a better manager. And I realized that I can scale myself from a single contributor to enable more single contributors. I find that very, very satisfying. I feel good doing that. And one thing I really, really love asking my team is that sometimes as a single contributor, you really focus on, especially technology, difficult problems. And it's very natural, and I did the same to forget about the goal. Like the why, what problem are we trying to solve? What? Like, sometimes there's a balance approach.ADRIANA: Yeah.HELEN: You're trying to solve this problem and then it's way out of the budget, right? And it might take way out of the extra time, etcetera. So how do we find that balance point? And one approach, I really find it effective and it really makes my team member, especially developer, interested in thinking about this, is that I encourage them to say, when you got into this situation, don't think like a developer. Pretend that you're Helen. Pretend that you're a manager. What would you do? And I find that approach is really helping them and it helps me too, because understanding now why, and sometimes I don't understand why I'm looking for that. Why then I put myself in my manager's shoes, even the senior leadership, what's important to them.ADRIANA: Yeah.HELEN: The code, quality is important, but how do you write that if statement may be important to a tech lead, but not a CTO, and that's...it sounds as bad you saying it, but going through this process, you start to understand why the CTO doesn't focus on this. However, it's equally important to write a beautiful if statement without confusing your peers and then later on introduce a bug, right? So, yeah, it's all related. And just connecting that dot and always think yourself a level up and wear those hats. Pretend yourself to be your next, like, your manager or next level, and things could get a little bit clearer and easier.ADRIANA: I really like that so much because I think it's so easy, you know, when we're, it's so easy for us as developers to, like, complain about management. Ah, these stupid management decisions. What were they thinking? And it's, you know, it's funny, the first time I was in a management position and I vowed like, oh, I'm never going to make the same, you know, stupid mistakes that were made with me by my crappy managers. Never, never, never.And, you know, I, I'd like to think I was, like, relatively successful, but the thing you have to learn as a manager, which I'm sure you've, you've seen yourself, is you can't please everyone. You're going to make some decisions that are going to be unpopular. And I mean, so be it. Like, yeah, but I think as a manager, it's your duty to explain why. But, like, they don't have to love it. But I...but I also think that your team has to support it, because when your team doesn't support your decisions as a manager, then things plunge into chaos, right? Because then you find yourself in a position where, like, people are talking behind each other's backs and then you've got, like, little factions developing, and all it takes is, like, one bad seed to sort of, like, ruin the harmony of your team. So I definitely agree with you that it's so, so important to get people to, like, basically get into each other's shoes to have that understanding and to understand the why.HELEN: Yes. And you raise a really good point, because it is, I agree, almost impossible to please everyone. At the same time, though, I believe it is possible to support everyone. That's different.ADRIANA: Yes. Yeah, I completely agree.HELEN: Yes. Yes. So as the leadership, in the leadership role, I actually believe that we...it's our responsibility to support every team member even though we may not able to please it because of the constraints we're in. And we can explain that background, usually explaining that reason, the why the thought process helps. And even though we may not be able to achieve the goal of 100% people agreeing, we can definitely support, because that's how we move forward as a team together.ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree with you when you say that. I have a scenario that comes to mind in one of my more recent management roles where basically I pivoted the direction of my team. And on the most part, the team was super chill about it. They're like, gung ho. But I had this one person who was definitely not into, you know, the pivot, and he was extremely unhappy. And, you know, I tried my best to explain, like, the direction that we were going in, but it was, you know, it wasn't the type of work that he was doing. So the way in which I supported him wasn't necessarily like, I'm never going to be able to convince him that the work that we were doing was going to be the work that he wanted to do. So the best way I could support him was to help him...him find a role internally that would better match his skillset. And I think, you know, being able to...being able to support your team members doesn't always necessarily have to involve convincing them that you're right. It's just making sure that, you know, you're both in a good place that makes you happy.HELEN: Right, right. And that's a...that's a...that's a very interesting point because I remember going to one on one with my team members, and the way I navigate this kind of situation is that I am hired by the organization as a manager to achieve certain goal for the company. And in order to make that happen, to make that goal successful, there are two parts. There's company and there's you. So both need to align.ADRIANA: Yes.HELEN: And if I cannot align your career goal with the company, that won't work out.ADRIANA: Yeah.HELEN: And it has to be both ways. And company need to align with you, you need to align with company, so both come together. If by any reason that alignment cannot be reached. And this is, this is my thing as a manager. I say the same to all my teams, no matter where I work. If you believe that alignment can be achieved by other place, and that's the best for you, and I'll support that. Even though that may be a loss for the company, it's a short term loss for our company, because then we don't waste time, unnecessary realignment and, you know, delaying certain things. I think we have to accept the fact that there is a middle ground, there is a balance, and technology is such a small world.I don't believe in holding the team member stuck in one team. Makes sense, right? By supporting, by creating a supporting network, sometimes it could be internally within the team, sometimes it could be within the organization, sometimes it could be even beyond organization. So at different levels. And that's, that's what my firm value of belief is. Like, there's no point if both sides cannot align. It's important what company wants to achieve, but it's also important, the contributor, especially the bottom line contributor, that who actually doing the work.Our job is to enable them. And if that have certain constraints, we try to eliminate as much as possible. And if that's not possible, then we support them at the next level. So that's, that's what I think it's important. And people often think that we want to make sure people don't quit. I do not want people to quit. I would love to work with them. However, we just have to be honest to ourselves. In my, in my modest opinion, that what's the best for the developers, the sole contributors, and what's the best for the company together.ADRIANA: Yeah, I completely agree with you. Because if you're holding someone back like that, forcing them to be where they don't want to be, it's like, you know, you're, you're dating somebody who doesn't want to be with you and you're just forcing them to be with you because you love them and they don't love you back. And I mean, it does no one any good at the end of the day?HELEN: Yeah, just gonna be...but doesn't mean you can't be friends, right.ADRIANA: So, yeah, and I think, like, and tech is really cool because like, you know, especially in Toronto, like, and I mean, I know you're no longer in Toronto, but even like in Canada, eastern Canada, let's say, like, it's a small world, especially now that like, we've embraced more of this remote mentality, remote work mentality. It's a small world and I think like doing a solid for a co-worker, like, it goes a long way. People don't forget, like, I think there's like good karma in tech if, if you, yeah, you know, if you help, if you help somebody out, they will help you out at some point in the future. I fully believe in that.HELEN: And I'm only their managers when I'm at work. Outside of work, I don't have to wear that hat. So I would rather be a good human being that I believe in myself. No matter where you are in the organization, whether you're a CEO, CTO, a developer, an intern, right? So at the end of the day, I'm only their manager for 8 hours.ADRIANA: Yep. For sure. For sure, yep. Awesome. I love it. Switching gears a bit now, I know, like, you've gone back and forth between working both at a startup and a large enterprise. Yes. You know, some people only work startups, some people only work large enterprises. And you've gone back and forth between the two. Can you share with folks what that has been like and kind of what's, what do you think were the biggest shocks in both worlds?HELEN: Hmm. I love learning, so switching gives me a total different views of things to do. The, I wouldn't say like, I know in advance that what I'm going to experience and what's the shock that it may have but actually feeling it is different. The risk appetite is very different depending on the size of the company. And when you're in a large organization where the process is very well developed, you take advantage of it. You basically embrace the safety. But at the same time, though, sometimes you could wonder why things move so slowly.HELEN: Yes, and in a startup, whereas there is literally, the process is no process, you embrace it, you move on, you can go production the next day whenever you're ready. You still do all your best practice automation test integration. Then you just go, it feels awesome. However, there is a catch of the risk appetite. Sometimes it could be go beyond your threshold.ADRIANA: Yep, yep.HELEN: So that is the, that is the shocks that I would say, that caught me, even though I know about this, but feeling it is totally different. And you are the person in a senior leadership team being accountable.ADRIANA: Yep.HELEN: You have to support your team for that decision and then make that informed decision what risk to take and what risk not to take. And that is an amazing experience for me. And it does...it does push me a little bit, like, outside of my comfort zone. However, again, like, I think every experience has its own learning. There's, like my manager always says, don't chase for perfection, chase for progression. And I really take that to heart. And every situation, every mistake I make makes me a better person, make me a better, more professional, make me a better manager.ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's so important to recognize because, you know, there are times in our careers where we think back to, like, our past mistakes and we're like, oh, so cringey. Oh, my God, I'm so embarrassed. I can't believe I did that. But, like, it helps shape who we are. Like, we wouldn't be where we are with our careers without that. So I really love that. I think that's, those are, like, really great words to live by.I definitely agree with you on the, like, the shock of a startup because I remember I was, I think my second job out of school was, like, for a smaller organization. And I remember, like, we were developers touching prod. I mean, I had access to, like, you know, the prod data, and then I, I kind of decided, okay, I've had it with this sort of, like, you know, wild, wild west environment. So I wanted to go back to large enterprise because I needed more order. And of course, I went to, like, one of the most, like, one of the places with the most order, which was a bank, and with all of the regulations. And so my biggest shock was going from a place where, like, I, as a developer, had access to the prod database to going to an organization where there was, like, a separate team for, like, the QA and UAT databases and a separate team for the prod databases. And I'm like, what? And you have to, like, open tickets to be able to, like, communicate changes. And that was so jarring. I mean, you understand why, but it's still a complete, complete shock.HELEN: Yes. Writing a delivery letter on every single deployment that we have to.ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The lovely document from hell. All the things that you have to do in order to deploy your code to prod and pray that you didn't mess up the instructions or else.HELEN: Yes. However, this is a very interesting point, because when I work on DevOps pipelines right now, that's my delivery letter.ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. But it's codified, which is beautiful.HELEN: Exactly, exactly. And then by making that connection, I think it helps everybody on the team to be more, you know, compassionate about what's going on. Like, I remember I was cursing about delivery letter when there was still one, right? And especially when you have to redeploy that minor changes and you're afraid of every single typo that will slow you down.ADRIANA: Oh my God.HELEN: Yes, yes. As a developer, I did curse it. So I totally understand and can relate to it. But as a manager, by supporting it now, I would say I can understand the DevOps pipeline is with, that is basically codified, that delivery letter. However, you do understand that, why am I want to automate this for human error for whatever reason, make that connection and help, even help the company transition to that mindset, if you can make that connection. Otherwise, why? Why do I want to spend so much money doing this, right? And that's why I think, especially when I find something irritating or annoying, I try to embrace this mindset and then it will make sense. You will find a light a bit sooner.ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's such a compelling argument. Like, whenever you've got folks who are like resisting this change to DevOps processes, right, all you need to do is say, well, do you remember the delivery letters that we had to do manually? This is why we have this process in place and I think it becomes a very compelling narrative. And yet another example why, explaining why asking why is so important.HELEN: Yeah. And we run into a situation that sometimes, again, depending on the teams and the process, we need to have a DevOps engineer to click that button. Why? It's a continuous improvement process. Because even though I don't know if some of the technology team members can them relate, we have a pipeline, but I need a DevOps engineer to click that button. Like, oh, why? What if my DevOps engineer is not available, why do we need him to click that button? That button is just right there.ADRIANA: Yeah, totally.HELEN: Yeah. Sometimes it's an interim product like that, and, and it could related to the process approval, funding infrastructure constraint. And I understand. I was the person as a developer back then when I was being blocked by my DevOps engineer. But I understood because he's my great working partner. He has a life too. He needs a day off. He was busy. I totally understood. However, it's very easy to resent to the management. Like, why are you doing it this way? Right?ADRIANA: Yeah, totally. Totally.HELEN: Yes. And I like how my manager said, do things with empathy instead of a sword. So using that mindset, if you go to your manager and say that instead of blaming that button, that you can't click, frame it as a way that I want to understand, "why did you?" Why did the company or management decide to design things in this way? Maybe you'll get a different answer and maybe you'll understand what challenges they are facing and put yourself in their shoes, and then your suggestion might be very valuable to push them forward.ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the important thing. Like, you know, understand why, but don't just take it at face value, because then...then you can use it to further probe and say, okay, well, I get that this is the process, but can we make it better? Because we need you to understand that this is not sustainable. This is a bottleneck for my work, and I think...HELEN: Right.ADRIANA: And so the empathy comes into play once again, which, you know, we need that. We need more of that in our industry.HELEN: Yes, yes. And I love being in the management role to put that empathy, compassion into the daily work, because sometimes technology problem can really make us stay focused. But at the same time, though, you know, to put ourselves in a box and forget about that. So I like being in this role to remind my team members that everything goes a long way with your technical expertise with the empathy, right?ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. Now, we are coming up on time, but before we wrap up, I do want to touch on one thing that I think is super important, that I think we need to talk about more, which is work life balance. And especially, like, you and I are both moms, and we are working moms in tech. So the question. My question to you is, you know, how...how do you manage as a working mom in tech? I mean, I know it's not like roses and ponies, like, all the time, you know, sunshine and rainbows. Like, we know that it's hard. So, like, what are your thoughts around that?HELEN: It is hard. Bottom line, it is hard. But I look at it as a journey as well, and recognize that some days I can't do it, some days I could. And I think it's the expectation. Do you put your team member, as a manager, those unexpected expectations, writing codes with no bug? Probably not. Then why do we do that to ourselves?ADRIANA: Yep, yep. Yeah. Oh, my God. That's so true. That's so true. I love that analogy so much. Yes.HELEN: So it's natural for a mom like us wanted to do it all, and I can always stop at the same time. Though some days, I really sucked that I would say that I couldn't do this. Like, I can't deliver what I promised my team to...I fail my team sometimes. I was like, oh, I have to leave my kid watching tv for an hour. I can't do this. I'm not a good mom. It's very easy to get into that situation.ADRIANA: Yeah, totally.HELEN: But what...Yeah, but we really have to pull ourselves out from this situation. What I tried, the approach I use is, like, okay, if I have empathy for my team, do I have empathy for myself? Yeah. Like, do I give them unnecessary expectations, like, mission impossible, and it's not even achievable, then why do I do that to myself? And also knowing that you can't pour from an empty cup.ADRIANA: Right.HELEN: If I don't take care of myself, how do I take care of my team? How do I take care of my family? So that's the approach I use. I wouldn't say that I mastered this. And balance...if you...if you look at a balance beam, you're always, like, adjusting. So I haven't reached that balance. I'm still adjusting, but this is the approach I use.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Yeah. And it's so true. I mean, balance isn't necessarily equilibrium. There are going to be wobbles, and that's okay. Yeah. And there are gonna be good days and bad days. I totally agree. I mean, I feel some days that I just. I suck. I can't do, like, any of the things properly. Like, you know, failing my daughter, sometimes failing at life, like, in general. And I totally agree with you.Like, just making sure that you take care of yourself is so important. And, you know, I. I'm one to admit, like, I give advice on work life balance, and I am terrible at following my own advice. And I more recently, like, I have had to, like, take my own advice on work life balance because I found myself in a situation where I was burnt out so badly. Like, it was affecting my sleep, affecting, like, my eating, like, I was getting, like, anxiety and digestion. And so I had to, like, take a step back, and this was my body saying, you got to take care of yourself. So I had to, like, make, like, changes to. To my life to, like, achieve some balance. And we need to listen to our bodies.HELEN: Yes, yes. And I know, Adriana, you actually climb.ADRIANA: Yes.HELEN: With your family. I think that's a...you don't like...I personally don't climb, but I do think it's a great opportunity to give it a try just because you realize that balance, like how a master elite athlete, how they climb, is still like this. Why are we so hard on ourselves? I find it that even though I can climb, but I...when I accompany, for example, my daughter for her climbing, then I feel like there's so much to learn. And I find...I find myself being more graceful acknowledging that. And I think that's one activity I would definitely encouraging people to give it a try. You don't be master. I can't even climb the easiest, but because I suck at it, it helped me understand that balance that, you know, reaching the balance is also a progression.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. And, you know, like, even if it's not your jam, like, you tried something that's outside of your comfort zone, and it doesn't have to be climbing. Whatever, right? That's the important thing. Just try something outside your comfort zone. Your brain will thank you because it's so different from what you do. So I think, yeah, I think that's amazing advice. Before we sign off, do you have any parting words of wisdom for our audience?HELEN: I truly believe everyone has a purpose. I think just belief in yourself. Continuous questioning about why, find a purpose, and everybody will be their shining star.ADRIANA: Awesome. I love that so much. Well, thank you so much, Helen, for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check out the show notes for any additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...HELEN: Peace out and geek out.ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:Alex Boten is a senior staff software engineer that has spent the last ten years helping organizations adapt to a cloud-native landscape by mashing keyboards. From building core network infrastructure to mobile client applications and everything in between, Alex has first-hand knowledge of how complex troubleshooting distributed applications is. This led him to the domain of observability and contributing as an approver and maintainer to OpenTelemetry.Find our guest on:All of Alex's socials on dot.cards/codebotenFind us on:All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingoutAll of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillelaShow Links:Silicon Valley - Tabs vs SpacesThe Engineer/Manager Pendulum, by Charity Majors (blog)The Journey Back to Being an Individual Contributor, by Alex Boten (blog)An Elegant Puzzle, by Will Larson (book)Ash Patel talks about stepping away from a director role and going into consultingRiaan Nolan talks about stepping away from a director role and going into consultingTranscript:ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. Geeking out with me today is Alex Boten. Welcome, Alex.ALEX: Hello. Thanks for having me.ADRIANA: Super excited to have you on. Where are you calling from today?ALEX: Just Vancouver, Canada, on the far west coast. So not too far away, but kind of far away.ADRIANA: All right, well, before we get started with the meaty bits, I'm going to subject you to my lightning round questions.ALEX: All right, let's do this.ADRIANA: All right, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?ALEX: I am mostly a righty, although when I play sports, I'm a lefty.ADRIANA: Cool. Okay, iPhone or Android?ALEX: I tried Android for a very brief moment, and then when I tried to sync it with my iTunes library like 15 years ago, it didn't work. So I just switched to iPhone and never looked back. I'm kind of stuck in it.ADRIANA: The iTunes library sync was the deal breaker.ALEX: Absolutely.ADRIANA: I feel ya. I, my mom had an Android for a while because my dad bought it for her even though he had an iPhone. And then she would ask me how to do stuff on, on her Android and I'm like, listen, if I'm not looking at your phone, I have no freaking clue what's going on because I don't have an Android.ALEX: It just made no sense. I...I'm with you. I could never understand it.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. All right, next question. Mac, Linux or Windows?ALEX: Mostly...mostly Mac these days. I have contemplated a few times going back to a Linux laptop, although every time I've tried it, I do a quick search on the laptops of choice, and the first hits that come back from the search engine are things like, hey, how do I get my broadcom WiFi card to work with my brand new laptop? And, you know, I did enough of this in the early two thousands that I don't, I don't feel I have the time to do that anymore.ADRIANA: I feel you.ALEX: Yeah, maybe I'll be on a Mac forever.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's kind of my...my reasoning too, eventually for why I went Mac because I had like a Linux machine and like, nothing worked on it and I had a BlackBerry at the time and I couldn't even sync my BlackBerry, so I had to like either do a Windows VM or dual boot, and then I'm like, nah.ALEX: Yep, I hear that.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, right, next question. Favorite programming language?ALEX: Let's see. I feel like in general, I don't have a strong preference. I've enjoyed Go for the past, I don't know, five or six years. Before that. I really enjoyed Python for like five or six years. So kind of whatever works. I think in general.ADRIANA: I'm down for that. Whatever makes you happy when you code too, right?ALEX: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think there's, there's gotchas with every single language, so you use anything long enough, you'll find those gotchas, I feel. But maybe I just haven't found that perfect language yet.ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Okay, next question. JSON or YAML?ALEX: Can I choose neither. Can I choose XML?ADRIANA: Seriously?ALEX: No.ADRIANA: I don't know. I don't know.ALEX: I think they're all just a means to an end. It's very rarely that any of those things are the thing that I really want to be spending my time on. So whatever the tools I'm using need, that's kind of what I'll...I'll go for it for that time.ADRIANA: All right, do down for that. Spaces or tabs?ALEX: I think I switch editors often enough that I prefer spaces in general because of various reasons. So I get spaces, but again, I'm not religious about it. If my, if my IDEs fill in tabs and I don't see it, I'm not going to pay attention to it. Although then when I switch to VIM and I see tabs, then I might be getting confused a little bit, so.ADRIANA: Yeah, sure.ALEX: I move for consistency one way or the other.ADRIANA: It's funny, I've asked this question a few times now, and so far no one has been, like, super adamant one way or another, which makes me happy, is so I always think back to that Silicon Valley episode where it's like, so mad because his girlfriend is using whatever he's not using. Wars are being fought over this.ALEX: I have been involved in those wars as, like, an innocent bystander, and really, it's. I just wanted at the end more than anything else.ADRIANA: So, yeah, I don't think it's worth fighting over. I've kind of gone back and forth like, I was tabs for a while, and then I kind of embraced spaces and I don't know, I. Yeah, never looked back. I don't really. I don't care either way, as long as it's consistent one way or another, so. Okay, two more questions. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?ALEX: Oh, that's a tough one. I think. I think text mostly. I feel like whenever I go to video I just kind of turn my brain off. But when I...when I read, I tend to be more active, so I feel like. I feel like text in general.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair, fair. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?ALEX: Oh, I'm pretty good at coming up with nonsense stories. Like, off the top of my head when I'm trying to entertain people, usually little people that need entertaining. I feel like that might be my superpower. Maybe work related superpower would be things along the lines of just, like, learning. Learning everything I need. As I'm, like, debugging a problem, I feel like, you know, there's always...there's always going to be an answer to a question, and I'm...I think I'm pretty good at not giving up, I guess.ADRIANA: Yes. And I feel like that is so important for our line of work because, I mean, the number of walls that we hit.ALEX: The number of walls and the complexity and, you know, there's always going to be, like, a...a new thing that someone you don't know programmed in a language that nobody's ever heard of, and you kind of have to, like, be able to at least understand enough to get past whatever is getting in your way. So I feel like solving...solving problems that way is very helpful.ADRIANA: Yeah, definitely. Having...having that persistence and then also knowing how to dig in, right?ALEX: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And just, you know, not...not being intimidated by the problems, I guess. Yeah, because they can't be intimidating. Sometimes you...you run into a problem, you're like, I have no idea what is happening in this particular instance.ADRIANA: Yes.ALEX: And...and just, you know, kind of chipping away at it little by little, I think is really helpful. So...ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. Like, I do find sometimes when I...when I come upon a problem that looks impossible, like, the only way to stay sane is to, like, break it up into, like, something that you can solve and then just sort of start following the breadcrumbs towards the solution.ALEX: Right. Being able to, like, take a step back and just identify what are the things that I know about this problem? Or, you know, how can I....how can I learn more about it without getting lost in the, like, oh, my God, I...I have no idea how to tackle this giant problem.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, totally.ALEX: It's pretty important.ADRIANA: I fully agree. Okay, well, now that we've got our questions out of the way. So it was funny when we were talking about what to talk about today, we could easily delve into OpenTelemetry because that is a chunk of the work that you do. However, we are going to not do that and instead talk about non OTel things.ALEX: Yeah, let's do it. There is a time where I wasn't working on OTel, and I'm always excited to kind of dive into some of that stuff. So I think we, I think we talked about, like, discussing engineering management and career path and choices. So I'm happy to kind of start there if you'd like.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, let's do that. Let's do that. Because I think both you and I kind of share this, I don't know, trauma for being in engineering management. Is that...is that the right way to put it?ALEX: I don't know about trauma. It definitely feels like it's a shared experience.ADRIANA: Yes.ALEX: Yeah, I feel like, I mean, for me, I went into engineering management after spending the better part of, like, ten years with an organization. And I feel like, in a lot of ways, our industry for a very long time, and I can see it shifting now. For a very long time, people were just taking engineering management as the next step, right? If you're around software long enough, the only evolution of your role as a software engineer is to eventually manage a team. And I'm happy to see that that's shifted a little bit. You see more people with roles like staff engineers, principal software engineers, you know, all that kind of role. That branch of the career path has evolved over time. But at least for me, at the time, when I, when I became an engineering manager, it just seemed like the next natural step in a career. And, you know, I'm curious if that's how you ended up where you ended up as an engineer manager as well.ADRIANA: Yeah, to be honest, I think mine was like a little bit of FOMO, but a little bit of that, too, because it was like, it felt to me like I was surrounded by all these people who were, like, moving up. And I'll put that in air quotes. And it felt like, you know, where I was definitely taught early on in my career that, you know, you made manager, you've made it, and that we should aspire to manager and director and VP and all that stuff. So I'm like, yes, yes, that, that's it. And, you know, over the years, I've personally taken on, like, management roles and leadership-y roles where at first I'm like, yeah, I got it. I made it. I'm all excited, and it's fun. It's a different, it's a different kind of work. But then at the end of the day, I realized that wasn't the stuff that made me happy. I don't know how your experience was around that.ALEX: Yeah. Just to make a comment on your previous statement, I don't know where you got FOMO about being an engineering manager. I feel like we should exchange notes on where you hang out to get that kind of FOMO. But I think for me, it was a similar vibe. I think I really enjoyed working in software. I really enjoyed writing software. I think that's always been something that I've been really excited to work on and kind of like you. You know, you see a lot of people in your peer group that move to engineering, management or director roles, and you start thinking, okay, well, maybe this is a thing for me as well.And I think if you look at the industry, there's a lot of other people that have ended up in the same place where they moved up, as you pointed out astutely in air quotes, they moved up to engineering management, and they kind of got stuck there. And, you know, for me, I think earlier on, I definitely thought after I made that transition, like, there was no going back. I thought, okay, well, this is it. I'm an engineering manager. Like, this is my career path now, and I have to stay on it. And I think it wasn't until I read an article about...from Charity Majors about the, like, the career pendulum, where I started thinking, like, oh, maybe there is a path to going back to an IC role. And I think at the point at which I read this article, I was already feeling this sense of the things that my team were accomplishing and their achievements I thought were great for the team, but I was in a place where if the team was doing well, I was happy to share the credit or give the credit to the team. But if the team wasn't doing well, I felt like I was taking on all of the responsibility and the blame for the team not accomplishing its goals.And I feel like that alone really threw some wrenches in my wheels a little bit. When I was an engineering manager, I think I just wasn't getting the same kind of positive reinforcement that the work that I was doing was impactful or it was in any way achieving the goals that I was hoping to achieve. And so I think, you know, at that point, I decided, well, maybe this isn't for me. And I feel like, you know, it's really important for people to understand that there is a way to move away from engineering manager and back to an IC role if this is something that you've tested and decided you didn't want.ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think...I think that's that's what's really important is to know that it's not...it's not the be all, end all. It's also important to know that, like, some people are very suited for engineering management roles, and they love it. And, you know, we need people like that. We need all kinds of people.ADRIANA: For me personally, you know, like, you're...you're asking, like, where did I get the FOMO from? So my first job out of school, I worked at Accenture. And the mentality there, I don't know how it is now, but certainly when I joined, it was, you started off as an analyst coding in the trenches. That that was, like, you were expected to, quote unquote, pay your dues by writing code, and then you were rewarded by being promoted to management. And so for me, that was like, okay, this is what needs to happen. And I think, you know, like, it's fine. It's a fine career path. But for me, it didn't...it really didn't make a lot of sense. And when I left, I was actually on track to being...If I had stayed, I would have gotten promoted to manager. But I felt at a place in my career where I'm like, I know nothing. How can I manage a technical team when I don't feel like I know enough? So I actually, like, I made a lateral move to another company so I could, like, improve my technical skills so that I could feel like, okay, if and when I become manager, I feel like I can, you know, manage my team effectively because I can call the bullshit on anything that's being, you know, that's...that's being thrown my way. So, yeah, that was...that was kind of my...my path to, uh, my...my topsy turvy path to management.ALEX: So, yeah, I, um. Yeah, that's funny. I. I very much felt the same way where I felt like I needed to know the tech in order to be able to be an effective manager. And, you know, I...I think there's some merit to that. I also feel like there's...it's a bit of a double edged sword, right? Like, if...if you know the tech too well, you...you may never feel confidence in what your engineers are telling you...and, you know, there's that sense of, like, oh, well, you know, what? If I could just do it myself in...in less amount of time? How does that feel? How does that feel compared to, like, asking someone else to do the work? And I ended up managing a team that I was a lead on for a very long time. And so I think that was one of my challenge, was I always felt this need to jump back into the code and write code. And I know a lot of organizations, they talk about how managers should write code, and I feel like there's enough to do as a manager that you don't necessarily need to think about writing code. And I feel like that's...that's maybe a disservice to people that go from engineering to engineering management.Is that responsibility that is put on those engineers now, engineering managers, to still think about writing code? Sure, you could still write code, but there's so many other things that you could be doing to unblock people that are working and reporting to you that you should probably change your mindset a little bit and focus on that.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's a very interesting point of view. And I do wonder if, I think you end up with two flavors, though, of engineering managers as a result, because then you've got the pure people manager, engineering managers, and then you've got the ones who are kind of straddling both worlds, which I have to admit, I was one of those ones who was, like, trying to stay current in some form and just doing something technical, because for me, I didn't want to lose the skills. But also, I realized that when I go through large stretches of not coding, I actually get very depressed. So I wonder if that's more just a symptom of the, maybe engineering management isn't for me because I'd rather code. Or maybe I also know people who love doing both. They love the people management, but they also want to do the hands on stuff.ALEX: Yeah. And I think I want to say that there's definitely different types of engineering managers, and I've seen amazing, and I've seen terrible managers in both cases that you listed, right? Like, I've seen people managers who were absolutely terrible at managing team, even though they might have had success in other environments. And I've also seen people who are people managers who do a tremendous job of, you know, working with their...with their engineers and still achieving, you know, what I would expect an engineering manager to achieve. And that, you know, they're able to, like, work well across their organization. They're able to, like, help career development with their engineers and all the other stuff. And I have also seen terrible, terrible, very technical engineering managers who, much like I was, knew too much about the code and kind of looked over your shoulder as you're making changes just to make sure that it's up to their standard. And you're like, well, okay, at some point, you have to start trusting the engineers on your team. So, yeah, I mean, I think, I, I don't think one category or the other is going to be like a shoe in for this will be a perfect manager. I think that's like a misconception from some organizations where they have these requirements, how technical someone should be or whatever.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. But you bring up an important point which I think anyone going into management needs to do, which is like, you have to trust your team. You have to let go of that perfectionism. And, you know, they always say, like, delegate, delegate, delegate, and, but it's so hard, especially when you're coming up from being an individual contributor into a management position where you like to have that extra bit of control and I, and letting go of that control and trusting in your people to do the thing can be so hard, especially if you have some shitty people working for you that, that kind of, like, give you no reason to trust them. So that can be so hard.ALEX: Yeah, it could definitely, definitely have, like, a negative impact. And maybe this is where the trauma comes from. You know, erode the trust that you have in people in general, and bad experiences are everywhere. So, you know, I think. I think you're right that you do have to trust them to a certain extent, you know, and things are not working out. Having those, like, frequent check ins with people and trying to, like, understand why things are not working the way that you would expect them, I think is really important.ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, as a manager, I had, like, a day dedicated to my one on ones, and my last job, I managed two teams. It was like 13 people. So, like, my Thursday, a lot of one on ones. So, like, I would have to alternate. They were every other week where, like, one week was one team, the other week was the other team. So for me, it was like, every week, Thursday is full of one on ones. And as much as, like, most days, most Thursdays, I just wanted to run away screaming and not have the one on ones. I knew that that was like, that's the opportunity to connect with, with the people that, you know, you're managing. And if you miss one, you kind of miss those opportunities to, like, really help them out if they're struggling or, you know, doing stuff to help them do better, to sort of supercharge them, give them superpowers. But, yeah, it's, it's, it's like that necessary evil. I don't know how you felt about, about the one on ones.ALEX: Yeah, I think I think one on ones were great. They're great in general. I do feel like, as a manager, learning how to use them effectively to, you know, because it's easy to have a one on one where you're just, you know, talking about whatever's happening in someone's life, and that's fine. I think it's a good way to connect, especially for organizations where people are remote. You know, you have to have those kind of connection points that just share a little bit of what's happening in people's day to day. But I also think it's important to go into a one on one with a plan, because it's easy otherwise to just have those discussions and not have a chance to maybe address something that is problematic or finding time to celebrate someone's wins or whatever. There's just things that people maybe don't leverage one on ones enough as managers.I'm curious, what is, like, one thing you wish you knew as an engineer manager, like, when you started, what is, like, the one thing that you would expect, hope that everybody knows?ADRIANA: Huh...that's a good question. I think the...I think...don't....don't underestimate the amount of time you have to put in with...um...like...really making sure that...like, I don't want to say keeping tabs on your team, because, like, that, that sounds micromanaging, and that was not my style. But, like, you really have to be...you have to be in the know of what's going on with...with your team in some form or another. Um, and I think that that's something that you kind of underestimate. I don't know, I kind of had these romantic views of, like, managers where it's like, oh, they just sit around doing nothing. But no, that's not true.They have to keep tabs on all sorts of things, not only at the team level, but also at the, you know, to their direct manager to, like, to keep abreast of what's going on in the organization. And I think, oh, I know a good way to answer your question is I think a lot of people don't realize how much of a shit umbrella a manager tends to be, because I think, like, a good manager does have to protect their team to a certain extent, not to the point where, like, they know nothing, but, like, you know, I think there's got to be, like, some sort of shielding where you're not overstressing your team and keeping them away from, like, kind of the bullshit that's happening above. So...but they also have to be aware of the stuff that's happening so that they're also not naïve and you don't want them to be like, well, you know, upper management is a bunch of idiots and they have no idea what's going on. So you have to kind of, like, be very, very deliberate with your communications and effective in them so as to, like, attain that balance. I think that was probably, like, the hardest, hardest thing for me.ALEX: Right. I think you definitely have to be a filter of some sort, because if you don't act as a filter between what's happening, you know, a level above or whatever, your team and your team, then there's that potential of always distracting your team with things that may never happen or things that may not be relevant at the time. And so, you know, I think part of what's allowing someone to be an effective manager is to allow people to focus on, you know, what is the most important deliverable at a particular point in time. And, you know, how do you...how do you do that if you just keep interrupting your team with all of the different questions that come to you as an engineering manager? And I feel like there's, you know, maybe...maybe this is where, like, the people that are technical have a bit of an advantage as a...as an um...because, you know, maybe they're being asked, hey, like, what does feature X look like if we wanted to implement it? Well, maybe, you know, if you're a technical manager, you...you might be able to answer this question a little bit.ADRIANA: Yeah.ALEX: Or you might have to, you know, pull someone in if you're..if you're not a technical manager.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of navigating that fine line of, like, how...how much toil do you create for your own team? Because you also don't want to panic them. Like, I used to think, oh, you know, as a manager, I'll be, like, fully transparent on all the things, and then you quickly realize that, like, that is the most terrible idea ever because you are stressing people unnecessarily. Like, no, no, no, no.ALEX: Right?ADRIANA: Yeah. And especially, like you said, they're like, what are you gonna do? Stress people out about something that may or may not happen? Like, wait till it becomes a thing and then have those conversations, but until then, like, the best thing you can do is just sort of keep it under...under wraps until the thing actually materializes and then have those conversations.ALEX: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important. As I took on engineering management the same way you did where I thought, okay, well, my team are all, you know, people that I used to work with. Whatever, whatever gets sent my way, I'm just going to let them be aware of it because, you know, they're all, they're all very intelligent people. I, you know, they're going to be able to handle it. And, like, at some point, it just became way too much, too many distractions happening all at once. And, you know, that was a very challenging learning experience for sure, because, you know, once you...once you said these things out there, like, you can't really just, like, say, all right, forget like, the last, like, ten minutes of interactions. Just don't worry about all those things that you're worrying about now.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. So how about you? What was, like, the most eye-opening manager thing for you?ALEX: Oh, I wrote a whole, like, post on my journey back to an individual contributor at some point after I left management. I think most of my learnings are in there, but I think identifying what brings you joy as, as a manager and, like, really leaning into how you, how you can feel like you're getting value out of your, you know, your day to day is really, really important. And for me, I never, I never quite got to the place where the thing that I could have gotten joy out of as an, as a manager gave me enough joy to, like, keep me going in that role forever. I think, like, you know, I like you. I always find that it's way more fun to solve problems on a... on a coding basis rather than solving the people problem that you have to do deal with as a manager. And, yeah, I think that was probably the biggest...the biggest learning is just like, maybe before or, like, as you start becoming a manager, trying to identify what are the things that, you know, make me feel good about my...my...what I...how effective I am in my role and how can, how can I keep track of those things for myself so that I can get that kind of positive reinforcement or, like, feedback cycle.ADRIANA: Yeah.ALEX: The best advice I ever got, though, I think, was someone said to me that. So, so, you know, I was going from, like, a technical lead on my team to, like, managing the team. And the best advice I got was to lean into my new peer group. And, you know, I think that's something that a lot of managers who end up managing the team that they were part of struggle with and, you know, because you would go out and, you know, hang out with the people that you work with. And when you become their manager, it's really important to kind of build a little bit of a distinction there because, you know, it...it's important to, I feel like if you don't build that kind of distinction between your, what was your peer group and your current peer group, which would be the other managers, then it's really impossible to do that. First, the previous thing that you were talking about, which was to kind of filter things out because, you know, and it's not trying to be deceptive or anything, but if you're going out and hanging out with the people that you were working with as individual contributors, you know, you will probably lean on them to, you know, talk about the challenges that you're having at work.ADRIANA: Yeah.ALEX: And that's not, that's not necessarily a good thing for...for someone who's reporting to you to hear, you know, the things that you're struggling with as a manager. I'm not trying, you know, I wouldn't say that you have to be deceptive, but with the struggles that you have, it's a lot more helpful to lean into that new peer group, which would be the other managers and that kind of stuff, I feel like that's, that was the best advice I got. Unfortunately, I didn't follow it. So that was, that was another one of my struggles.ADRIANA: It's hard advice to follow because, like, especially when you're going from, like, you know, either, like, even going from team lead to manager, like, it's, it's a definite, like, it's a change. And so when you're, when you're used to being buddies with, with your coworkers and then all of a sudden you're managing them, it's like, it's such a hard switch to flick in your mind because, you know, it's like, why can't we be friends? But also, like, as you said, if you, if you share your struggles with, with the folks that you're managing, in some ways it can kind of demoralize them because, you know, like, you're their leader. And now it's almost, I don't want to say it shows weakness, but it definitely, like, you look different in their eyes. How can they, how can they see you as, like, you know, the, how can they see you properly as a manager if...if you're showing, like, this...this side of you that you really shouldn't be exposing as a manager? It's kind of, it's a balancing act.ALEX: Right? It said this, that, you know, fine line between, like, a professional life and a personal life. And, like, when you're...when you're sharing some of your personal life with. With people that you work with, it does become a challenge to, you know, if, say, something happens with, you know, one of..,the...one of the people on your team that was reporting to you and you're friends with them, you know, turning around and saying, okay, now we have to have a serious conversation about your performance at work. Like that. That's a really tough thing to do for people, both for the recipient of the...of the feedback and the person who has to give the feedback. You know, you don't really want to be that person who has to, like, put someone on, like, a performance improvement plan that you, you know, hang out with all the time like that. I feel like that's...hat's. That's almost a...yeah, it's really tough to balance that kind of line between the two.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I think, for me, that was definitely one of the hardest things where I came into management, thinking, let's all be friends, and it's like, yeah, it doesn't quite work out that way because sometimes you got to crack the whip and you kind of got to be a little bit, you know, mean. I don't want to say mean, but, like, you got to be stern because otherwise, like, sometimes, like, when you're too chummy, people kind of take advantage of your goodwill, right? Like, oh, we're friends. It's fine. I can get away with whatever.ALEX: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's definitely something to be said about. About keeping that relationship professional and yeah, I don't know. It's just a really hard thing to do for someone who. Who you were, like, friends with and then having to go to managing them. I feel like, as a first time manager, if you're being put in a position where you have to manage a team of people that you were friends with, I would definitely request that not to be the case for anybody out there thinking about getting into management. I think organizations would do really well of giving, like, first time managers the opportunity to learn the management bits without having any kind of, like, prior relationship.ADRIANA: Yeah.ALEX: Kind of boundaries to deal with in their past. So that's actually one of the things that was in, I think, "An Elegant Puzzle", I think, is the name of the book, and, you know, it's a. It's a great book about how to become an engineering manager and what challenges to look for and what red flags to look for. And, you know, one of the things that you. That suggested in that book, if memory serves. I could have been reading something else, but I think that's, that was one, is to, you know, have, like, a small team. I think it's like four to six people, and ideally, these are people that you haven't, you know, they're not your previous team, and you're not trying to manage your previous kind of peers. Yeah, that's a great book. Also, for anybody who, who's looking into this, I think Will Larson maybe is the author, I can't remember.ADRIANA: I'll definitely include in the show notes.ALEX: Excellent.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's...that's definitely really good advice. What about, you know, the going beyond manager has for you personally, has, like, going beyond manager to, like, director or VP? Has that ever been, like, at any point, like, especially when you were a manager? Did that ever tickle your fancy?ALEX: I have never had director FOMO. Just gonna throw this out there. I've never had FOMO around becoming a director. I think once I became a manager, I kind of...I think I just learned enough about the things that you would have to do to be a director and an effective director, and I just...it never really lined up with things that I was interested in. Yeah. What about you?ADRIANA: Yeah, I have to agree. I...for...for a while...fo I have to admit that I did have director FOMO, but it was, like, for all the wrong reasons. And it was basically like, where am I in relation to my peers at my career right now? All of my peers from university are, like, you know, directors or vps or whatever. And so for a long time, I used to be, like, really down to myself thinking, well, I'm not manager. I'm not a director. I'm a loser. Like, obviously I'm not successful. And for me, the most liberating thing was getting out of that mindset and realizing that success is what makes you happy in your career and finding a little niche that you can call your own and thriving in that and making a difference in that little corner. And I think as soon as I realized that, and then as soon as....in my last management role, as soon as I realized what was involved in being a director, I was like, um...no. Thank you, but no.ALEX: Yeah, I echo that 100%. I feel like...like, for me, director just meant that you were in meetings all day long and didn't find time to do anything else. And I feel like that, that alone is, like, is enough of a requirement for me not to be in, you know, overly interested in the role yeah, but, yeah, I agree on...on the potential for FOMO, because you do, you know, we do compare ourselves to our peers and, you know, depending on which peer group, maybe people that you were into university or whatever, too, but...and it is tempting once you see this, you're like, oh, well, what if I became this...this role? And then, you know, I think...I think that's actually why a lot of people end up in those roles, you know, because some folks just...either they get stuck in an engineering manager role and they don't feel like there is a way back out of that role, or they see a lot of people that follow that pattern. They're like, oh, well, this is what I should be doing as well. And I think it's very unfortunate. I feel like, I like when I find directors and engineering managers that love what they're doing, and I think that they're really fun to work with. And the people that aren't into it, you can always kind of tell, like, it's that, you know, they struggle through some of those roles, and it's...yeah, it's just unfortunate if. If you got there, because it's not the thing that you wanted, but it's the thing that you thought you needed. Yeah, it's...ADRIANA: And I'd say it's like, it's. It's never too late to reevaluate. Like, I actually interviewed someone for this podcast who was in a director role, and he decided, and he'd gotten into management very, very early in his career, and he decided after being a director for a bit, he was like, oh, I kind of just want to be an IC now, which is super cool. And I...and there's nothing wrong with, like, changing your mind and then changing your mind again, because maybe, like, you just needed a little mental break from being a manager or being an IC or whatever. I think that's totally cool, too. And I think. I think that's another really important lesson that I wish I had known earlier on in my career, is that not everything is final. Like, you're almost, like, led to believe at an early age that, like, the career you choose is, like, it for you.ALEX: Right? I just think of those, like, high school...high school questionnaires. What will you be when you grow up?ADRIANA: Right? Yeah. Like, I definitely didn't imagine this, but that's cool. I'm rolling with it and. Yeah. Like, change your mind. It's okay. Change your mind many times. It's totally fine as long as you're happy doing what you're doing.ALEX: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like, I feel like you're right. You know, some people, maybe they were a manager somewhere and things were not exactly where they expected, and then they go back to an IC role and then maybe they try management again, you know, for like six months or something. You know, this is, this is actually what I did. I was an EM for like two years, then I was an IC for like three years, and then I was a manager for six months. So, you know, it's important to try things out and see if the circumstances change the role enough that, you know, you may find happiness in a different director role or whatever. Like, there's nothing wrong with trying it out, but I feel like one of the important things for, for people to understand is that people that move away from engineering management back to an IC role. And for me, my experience has been that I've been a much more effective individual contributor after being a manager.Like, after understanding what happens kind of beyond that management role and seeing how organizations function at different levels, I think is really helpful for IC role because it's an opportunity to really understand how your work impacts the rest of your organization, how you can maybe impact your manager so that they can be free to do better work or whatever it is. Like, there's just like a lot of learnings that happen at that stage, and I think that's, that's super valuable, even if it doesn't end up being the role for you.ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. It gives you a lot of empathy, right? Because it's so easy for us to be judgy. I remember, like, my first manager out of school, I was like, ah, this guy's an idiot. He doesn't know what he's doing. I was like, no dude is going through all this stuff behind the scenes that you don't even know about. Stop being so damn naïve.ALEX: Right. Not...not really understanding what's happening behind that manager meeting door is. Yeah, I mean, and, and how would you know this, right? Like we talked about earlier, like, if you have a good manager that filters out the nonsense that you don't have to worry about, you know, great. That means that your team will never need to know about the things that they don't need to know about. And, you know, since they're not taking out for beers, they're not going to vent to you and tell you about how their day went, so.ADRIANA: Yeah, totally agree. Final thing, I was curious. This happened to me a couple of times. I remember both times when I went from manager to IC and I was applying for the IC roles. I remember interviewing and the interviewer is like, you know this is an IC role, right? I'm like, yeah, I don't know if you ever encountered that yourself when you were switching back to IC.ALEX: No, I wrote a whole blog post about it, and anyone who's ever asked me about if I want to be manager again, I just send them to this blog post and I tell them, here's the thing, so you have to understand as to why I don't want to be a manager at this point.ADRIANA: Awesome. I will be sure to link to your blog post in the show notes before we part ways. Do you have any final words of wisdom or hot takes that you would like to share with our audience?ALEX: I have no hot takes, unfortunately. But yeah, I don't know. I guess on the topic of career paths and engineering management, if you think it's for you, you should try it out and find a group that will support you in doing it. And if it doesn't work out, know that there's a way out.ADRIANA: Yes, there's always the off ramp.ALEX: Yep.ADRIANA: It's very comforting. Very comforting to know that.ALEX: Right. There is a future beyond it. If it doesn't work out for you, it's not the. It's not. You will not be trapped there forever. Or at least hopefully you will not be trapped there forever. I don't know.ADRIANA: Yes. Hopefully not. Fingers crossed. Awesome. Well, thanks, Alex, so much for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and and our guests on social media. Until next time...ALEX: Peace out and geek out.ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:Ana Margarita Medina is a Sr. Staff Developer Advocate. She speaks on all things SRE, DevOps, and Reliability. She is a self-taught engineer with over 13 years of experience, focusing on cloud infrastructure and reliability. She has been part of the Kubernetes Release Team since v1.25, serves on the Kubernetes Code of Conduct Committee, and is on the GC for CNCF's Keptn project, When time permits, she leads efforts to dispel the stigma surrounding mental health and bring more Black and Latinx folks into tech.Find our guest on:LinkedInGitHubX (Twitter)InstagramTikTokBlueSkyMastodonFind us on:All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingoutAll of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillelaShow Links:On-Call Me Maybe Podcast (Adriana and Ana's previous podcast)ServiceNow Cloud ObservabilityAna's Instagram (complete with cute squirrel pics)Adriana's rat InstagramKubernetes Release TeamSubmitting Your First Conference TalkConf42Open Source SummitChaos EngineeringGetting Started with OpenTelemetry surveyReese Lee on Geeking OutAdriana and Reese's Observability Day EU 2024 talkAdriana and Reese's KubeCon EU 2024 talkDall-e (AI image generator)Adriana's teaser post on X for upcoming Open Source Summit talk with AnaTim Banks on Geeking Out (part 1)Tim Banks on Geeking Out (part 2)Hazel Weekly on Geeking OutAdditional Links:Ana and Adriana's talks together:Empowering Users Through Platform Engineering (KubeCon NA 2024)Translating Failures into SLOs (SLOConf 2023)Onboarding Doesn't Have to Suck (Open Source Summit NA 2024)Transcript:ADRIANA: Hey, y'all. Welcome to Geeking Out, The podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Ana Margarita Medina, my fellow co-worker of ServiceNow Cloud Observability. Welcome!ANA: Hello. Pleasure to have to have me here, I guess.ADRIANA: Always nice to have you on! As my fellow former On-Call Me Maybe podcast co-host.ANA: Hello to anyone listening from On-Call Me Maybe days. We're happy to be back here and have the dual dynamic duo work wives back.ADRIANA: That's right. It's like our little reunion. Okay, so where are you calling in from today?ANA: I'm calling in from Marin, California, just 20 minutes up from San Francisco.ADRIANA: Awesome. And I'm jealous of, like, your cool mountain views because here in Toronto, it's super flat.ANA: This is where I wish I could just put up my squirrel photo, like, up.ADRIANA: I know, right? I know. I see your squirrel posts on Instagram, like, so jealous of that squirrel with the mountains in the background.ANA: And I have two squirrels, and I'm pretty sure one of them might be pregnant or just a little heavier set of squirrels, so I actually can kind of tell them apart. But I haven't named them. They're just called besties for now.ADRIANA: Ah, cute, cute. Okay, you gotta let me know when you name them. We have backyard cats, so we've got fat cat, black cat, and fat black cat.ANA: Creative. Yeah, I just. I feel weird naming squirrels that don't belong to me, but they...I do see them, like, every other day, and I'm feeding them at least once a week, so we do have some relationship like...They actually are getting closer to me, and I don't know, I'm scared of them coming too close too, so.ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. I always wonder how, like, similarly behaved squirrels are...to rats. As a rat owner, you know, I look at squirrels with, like, with affection because...except when they eat my bulbs, I get really mad. Like, they were digging up my friggin bulbs last...last fall. Then we're not friends. But I do feel like they've got, like, the rat-like qualities.ANA: Yeah, I've been staring at them, and I've been starting to look at them a little bit more like rats as I, like, just don't see them on trips now. Like, now they're, like, cohabitating with me. You guys are just rats with gorgeous ass tails. That are more socially acceptable to like. Which is a bummer.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's true. I know, I know. People get really freaked out by the rat tails. Like, I'll tell people, oh, I have rats. And either people will be like, "Oh, my God, that's the best thing ever", or I'll get the..."Ew. Why do you have those street vermin as pets?" And usually, like, my mom, for example, could not stand the fact that we had rats because she grew up in Rio and, you know, like, they had, like, rats in the hallways of their apartment building. So it's like, no, what the hell are you doing? And I...and people are, like, legit freaked out by their tails. And I'm like, aw, but they're so cute.ANA: I mean, I think it's one thing to have, like, uninvited to your house and making it a pet, which is a little, like, weird because you don't know where it really came from.ADRIANA: Yeah, it's true.ANA: But when you're grabbing it from, like, a place where you're like, okay, this is a rat that I'm taking home. Like, I think by setting that intent of the way that it comes, it changes it up. But I remember the first time you told me you had rats, and I was like, you're the first person I know that has had a rat as a pet. But the way that you guys treat them as part of your family is adorable, which is. Made me love watching them, like, grow up with your family.ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Because we've got our rat Instagram, as you do when you have pets, you get an Instagram for your pets.ANA: So, yeah, I've been considering starting a little TikTok or Instagram for my squirrels because I'm like...I feel like I'm just posting so much content about them, and I'm like, eventually I'm gonna have a little camera outside that you can just see them.ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Squirrel cam. That would be the best. Oh, man. Okay. Well, as much as I enjoy talking about rats and squirrels, are you ready for those lightning round questions? ADHD, like, in the house here, right?ANA: Yes. Squirrel. Literally?ADRIANA: Yeah, literally. Right? Okay, let's do the lightning round questions. Are you ready?ANA: Bring it on.ADRIANA: Okay, let's do it. Okay. Lefty or righty?ANA: Righty.ADRIANA: Awesome. iPhone or Android?ANA: iPhone. Every day.ADRIANA: Same. Mac, Linux, or Windows?ANA: Mac. Probably.ADRIANA: Cool. Favorite programming language?ANA: I'm gonna go with go Go. Go as a first love, and it a forever has a home. And anytime I like Go code, it just brings joy into my head, like, or my heart. And I'm always like, man, I want to be a Go programmer back again. Like, I miss those days.ADRIANA: I feel like that would be a fun thing to do, is Go programming. I want to get more into Go. Like, I know enough to be dangerous, but I want to be more dangerous.ANA: I am not dangerous in Go. I can just get some things done and I can collab with others, but maybe start a project from scratch, but not Go, like heavily advanced. I also haven't been coding much, like, nowadays, so I feel like it's way harder to get into programming mindset sometimes.ADRIANA: Yeah, it's true.ANA: Reading it is really easy.ADRIANA: Yeah, it's so true. Like, when I'm actually away from programming for a long period of time, I almost convince myself that I don't know how to code anymore, which is ridiculous. And then I go back into it. I'm like, yeah, I'm a fucking badass at coding. Rock on.ANA: Sometimes I'm like, do I take a Go class just for fun? Like, as part of our professional development? Like, why not? We have time.ADRIANA: I know, right? Yeah, that'd be fun. Okay, next question. Dev or ops? Or do you have a preference?ANA: SRE. I think my heart is in reliability and I really do stand for a lot of SRE brings and the cultural changes into an organization. And also being just an engineer that can hop in and out of code while also understanding how infrastructure works, I think that's highly valuable, and I would not change that in my personal career.ADRIANA: That's awesome. I love that. You know, it makes me think, like, several years ago, I think I told you, like, when I had quit my tech life and decided to be a professional photographer. And then I came back after a year to tech life, and I remember meeting with, like, a former boss and he's like, what do you want to do? Because it was like all of a sudden the whole world was open to me again. I'm like, oh, I can do something different than what I was doing before. And I'm like, I really love the infrastructure side of things, but I also really love development. But at the time, I think it might have been when DevOps was slowly making its way into, like, our vocabulary. Like, it was it...I think it was probably around, but it was just starting to be, become more popular. But like, that was, you know, DevOps, SRE principles. Like, that was effectively what, what I was searching for in my life, but that I, like, I didn't have a name for it, right?ANA: I wish I had a story like that. Like, it makes sense where you're like, this is what I love doing, but there's no space for me. For me is very much of, like, I stumbled into SRE. Like, I got thrown as an intern in a site reliability engineering team when I had zero systems knowledge, which, every time I tell the story, is always kind of fascinating to laugh at, like, how far my life has come and what were those managers thinking? But I am glad that they saw the potential in me, like, getting a chance to learn. And I did rally up and learn quickly, but there's a lot of fundamental stuff that sometimes I'm like, oh, yeah, I never took those classes. I never watched those YouTube series. Like, I never learned. So sometimes I'm like, do I go back to school at some point to try to fill in the gaps, or do I just do more, like, self paced education? Which...ANA: that's more my jam. I'm a self-paced learner.ADRIANA: So eventually with you, yeah, I don't blame you at all. Like, for, you know, like, I do a lot better as a self-paced learner. And also, I don't know about you, but for me, I'm a very just-in-time learner. So I will learn the thing that I need to learn for that moment. And then sometimes it means, like, just tackling at a higher level, and then when I have a chance to breathe or because work necessitates that I dig deeper, then I'll dig deeper, which sometimes means that, you know, I won't necessarily have that initial depth, but I love having the motivation of a project to, like, force me to dig into stuff.ANA: So you have ADHD?ADRIANA: I don't know. I did, like, four years of university. Like, I look back on that time, like, how? Like, I don't know.ANA: I think it was the first time I told a psychiatrist that I've dropped out of college (technically twice) that..they were like, no one has diagnosed you with ADHD? Like, up to this point, like, you've gone like, okay. And I was like, well, I also just have, like, a fear of failure. So that's what drives, like, finishing these courses, like, a value and achievement. So I was like, that's how I got through high school, and that's what was keeping me going with college up until I realized how depressed I was in school and, like, had to be selfish and, like, do what I needed. Like, I knew I could get a job in the industry, but I could stay in school, be miserable, and rack up another $100k in debt.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.ANA: It wasn't what I wanted to do with my life at all.ADRIANA: Yeah. It's a classic example of, like, being kind to yourself, like, making the decision that is right for you rather than the decision that's, like, right for everybody else that doesn't jive with, like, how you are as a human being.ANA: And that was even, that was even before I understood mental health to, like, the capacity that I do now or, like, even have a diagnosis. I was just like, I'm miserable. I'm not going to school. Like, I'm not going to class. Like, I'm skipping out. I'm just turning in, like, homework and, yeah, exams are very lecture based, which then is, like, I read the textbook and I missed out on, like, that one thing this professor said on Tuesday because I only watched a Thursday lecture.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I feel, yeah, I feel ya. Well, I, and I mean, it's, it's worked out in your favor, right. Because you made the right decision for you, you're happier as a result, and then you got into, like, you got to do cool work.ANA: Yes. Yeah, I'm a, I've said it in talks before, but I'm a proud, call it dropout, is what I say sometimes. And people look at me weird, but I say that for me, it's just what worked out for is best. And I also understand that I have a privilege in saying that, like, not everyone can just get up and do that. Like, especially with the way that the tech industry is nowadays where, like, job market is a little harder to get and education does make you stand out. I've been able to still create a network in Silicon Valley without having, like, the pedigree of a lot of Silicon Valley engineers, but a lot of it is because I put myself out there, like, try to be a places where they're at already.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I. And which means you've had the DevRel spirit all along, right? Because you have to put yourself out there as a DevRel.ANA: It is so weird how, like, every single step that I took in high school and college for, like, learning coding and, like, evangelizing or learning really did lead up to me having a career in developer relations. Because I was always, like, that person that wanted to do the creative part of marketing and meeting the customers where they were at and, like, educating them and having fun with them. But at the same time, like, you couldn't take away my coding projects away from me. Like, those were mine and I wanted to see them cross the finish line. So years, years later, like, ending up in different DevRel functions. I've always been like, oh, this is my bread and butter. Like, understanding community, understanding customers while still having the technical shops to get the job done. Like, yeah, great.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, that's so cool. And, you know, and going back to, like, your earlier comment about, like, you being, like, a college dropout, but, like, in. In our industry, it's so interesting to see how many college dropouts there are and that it's...it...I think as a result, for me, it's, like, super normalized, like, which I think is so great because we all...we all reach our tech journeys from different angles. Like, whether or not you have, like, an engineering degree or comp sci degree. Or you...you took some...a completely different path, right? Like, you have a degree in...in the arts, or...or, like, you're just like, screw it, I'm not doing college. Like, it's not my jam. And I love how all roads lead to tech. Like, they can lead to tech. It's possible. And I think that's what I love about our industry, is that it allows so many people to discover it.ANA: Yes. And, I mean, I've said it in multiple podcasts. Like, I'm a firm believer in representation matters. And I think, for me, that's one of the reasons that I do say what I say about being a college dropout and being proud of it and being loud about it is similar to, like, my Latina-ness. Like, one, like, you can't miss it for, like, who I am and my loudness sometimes. Not in the stereotypical Latina loudness, more of, like, being loud and proud. But I see it as, like, one. Like, it allows people without financial resources to go to college, um, that we're not able to get the high school, like, high school grades or, like, the SAT scores to be able to get into those Ivy League schools that they wanted to.We've democratized a lot of the education, so, like, those courses are available online, and it's like, we're opening up that pathway to being, like, whether you're coming from Central America, Africa, Europe, you can still land in the United States and...or just stay wherever you are because remote jobs are so common nowadays and, like, really make a dent. Um, and I think if people don't talk about their own traditional backgrounds, like, because they're scared or, like, fear. Like, sometimes, like, I feel like we're not helping push the envelope forward and saying, like, there is a space for you here. Like, doesn't matter if you are, like us that has ADHD and dropped out because of that. Um, a lot of it is just, like a privilege if you're able to go to college and do the traditional way of getting into an industry. So I love where we're at now, and I do think that the pandemic did help a lot in allowing more companies to be remote or allowing themselves to start looking at talent elsewhere. So I do think that we're making a push forward, but I'm really curious to see how this conversation is a year from now as there's been so many return to offices that have happened. And, like, now the industry is just, like, a little harder to get into with the amount of people looking for a job. So it'll be curious to see how it evolves.ADRIANA: Yeah, it's definitely going to be interesting. And I hope, like, once the market picks up, it'll be, again the case of, like, the remote workers win out, right? Because we've all gotten a taste of what it's like to work remotely. Like, I can't go back to, like, not. I can't ever not be a remote worker again. You know what I mean? Like, I love it. And also, like, as you said, it gave this opportunity for, like, bringing on different people to teams.Like, when...when I worked at Tucows, I was able to hire guys from Brazil and Turkey onto my team, as well as folks from Canada. So it was, like, so cool to all of a sudden have this whole world open up to me. I didn't have to be restricted to a single geographic area, and so...and I think, like, my experience has always been that the more diverse the team, the better, because the only thing that you have in common is the fact that you're all different. And so you bring, like, you bring so much to the table, right? Like, all these different cool perspectives, cultures, whatever, like, just ways of working. And I absolutely love that.ANA: And there's a part of it that, like, everyone gets treated as an individual and, like, no one is getting tokenized or anything. It's like, you're here for who you are, and what you bring to the table just makes this team stronger. And everyone also has something to learn about one another, which I think also makes going to job fun.ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree. That was a great digression from our lightning round questions. I love it.ANA: Did we get all the questions?ADRIANA: No, we didn't. We're about halfway through, but I. This was, like, an awesome digression. Let's see what the other ones bring on. Okay, next question is JSON or YAML?ANA: I'm a Kubernetes girl, so YAML.ADRIANA: Rock on. Rock on. Yeah, it's YAML all the way from me. I've mentioned it before on this podcast. Like, my husband is a JSON guy. I'm like...ANA: I need a clean...ADRIANA: We don't agree on this.ANA: Yeah, we're having a fight. We don't agree on JSON.ADRIANA: I know. It's like, it's like JSON or YAML. And the next one: spaces or tabs?ANA: I'm a tabs girl.ADRIANA: Fair enough. Fair enough. I've mentioned it before. I've gone back and forth. Like, tabs make the most sense to me. But, like, I was actually even having a discussion with my dad recently where, like, you can, you can end up finding yourself in a situation where like, you check in your code and your tabs get converted to some, like, weird ass garble and. And so, like, you're better off having, like, spaces instead or at least having something where it converts your tabs to spaces on, on commit because you just don't know how different systems are going to interpret the tabs. So spaces are safer. And I'm like, hmm, interesting.ANA: So, yeah, yeah, I guess that might be also the reason that I'm choosing tabs is like by using VSCode, it does whatever it needs to do to convert my tabs to spaces as a need for all the products that I'm working on. I've never run into any issues, at least in the last two years. Oh, I actually a lied. I think I ran into one issue and like Kubernetes released team once that I was like, ooh, snap. But that was just also just regular formatting, like, issues that the linter was picking up. But with VSCode just it managing that for me, I think I don't usually have to think about it. I just kind of do tabs and go from there.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Like, I converted my VSCode because I operate in tabs, but I converted my VSCode so that when I hit tab, it turns it into spaces. So, but then the question is, like, is your, is your tab two spaces wide or four spaces wide? And then that's where you can get, like, really hairy with your YAML. Because like, depending on how people set that up in their ide, then all of a sudden, like, it can get. I don't, I don't know if, like, I think I've encountered some YAML linters where it gets mad if it's like the tab size isn't, isn't the same in YAML. Like two. You know, sometimes it's two spaces versus four spaces later on in your YAML. I think. I think I've gotten into that situation where it gets angry. Um, so I always, like, try to make sure that I'm speaking whatever tab language is of that YAML file, which can get confusing sometimes.ANA: Yeah, it's always fun to figure out. Figure it out later and debugging that you're like, why is this not working? And it's like, oh, wait, no, my tabs are four versus two spaces.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. Good times, good times. I'm still. I'm still. Yeah, a team. YAML, though, in spite of that.ANA: Yeah, same.ADRIANA: Okay, two more questions left. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?ANA: I think if you would have asked me five years ago, video would be the answer. But nowadays, like, I think with the most. Especially the most recent change of medications that I've had, like, text is a lot easier, especially for, like, I think it just depends on what it is that I'm trying to consume. Like, I love watching talks for conferences, but when it comes to getting something done, like, I'm so used to just reading tutorials and documentation that that's kind of what I'm gonna prefer.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I feel ya. I know. Like, scroll...scroll down to the ending to see: Does this thing, like, address the thing I want it to?ANA: Yeah.ADRIANA: Which you don't have that luxury with videos, but, yeah, I do. I do enjoy the...Sorry?ANA: You can't do command find on videos for the most part.ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. I know. That's my biggest beef. And I was actually talking to my daughter, Hannah, the other day, like, because we'll sometimes send each other...actually all the time. Send each other the Instagram reels. Right. And it's funny because I was telling her, I'm like, you know, whenever someone sends me an Instagram reel, I cannot be bothered to turn up the volume. I actually have to read. Like, I want to read just the subtitles. And so when someone has a video without the subtitles, I get, I'm like, I'm not gonna watch this.ANA: That is funny you say that, because I think last week I caught myself doing the same thing where it's like, I watch most of my Instagram and TikToks on mute, and I'm looking for all those captions. Like, my eyes are, like, going for text to watch, but I think that's also part of the AD-, like, at least for me. Like, my ADHD brain. Like, we need subtitles to watch a TV show.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, totally.ANA: Whereas I need to follow along, because if not, I'm gonna be thinking about lunch. I'm gonna thinking about work. I'm gonna be thinking about the new friend that I just made last week. Like, totally.ADRIANA: Totally. Yeah. Like, our TV is, like, permanently set to, like, captions on. And...and..and if the captions get, like, turned off, like, on, on Amazon Prime or whatever, which that seems to happen a lot. I'm like, where the hell are the captions? Like, I need...who changed this? Like, who changed this? Yeah. So, yes, I...Yeah, I agree with you. Definitely. Very ADHD. It does. I agree with you. It very much, like, hones in my attention, and then I read faster than, like, you. The dialogue is moving on, and my husband's a slower reader, so he's like, I find it so annoying when you start laughing before they've delivered the line. Like, I can't help it. I'm sorry.ANA: Oh, my God. I'm also the person that's doing the thing where, like, I watch a lot of TikToks on myself, and sometimes I will listen to them with audio, especially at nighttime. I'll put on headphones and, like, it's part of, like, my calming nighttime routine.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.ANA: But I'll watch every single TikTok on two times the speed. Like, I cannot stand hearing people talk on TikTok most of the time, but I can do 2x, and, like, I consume it, and I wish I could do 3x, honestly, because some of those stories are a little too long. And it's always annoying when I go to someone to show them a TikTok that I watch, and, like, I just press the 2x speed, and they're like, can you stop doing that? And I'm like, but I'm gonna be so annoyed if we watch it a real time. Like, fine.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's funny, because I'm the opposite. Like, I'll be, like, listening to a podcast, and sometimes it'll hit to, like, you know, one and a quarter speed or whatever, and I'm like, what is going on? Why is the person talking, like, way faster? And it bothers me. So I can't. I can't listen to, like, anything on. On, like, that's. That's sped up. It drives me crazy. But a lot of ADHDers I talk to, they're like, yeah, I'll listen to stuff at, like, however many x speed. I'm like, how can you do this?ANA: I do my audiobooks at 1.8, usually.ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Oh, see, that would drive me crazy. I'm like, they're talking. Like, even though I can. I can make out what they're saying. I'm like, it's too fast. I'm like, this is not enjoyable for me.ANA: Apparently I'm missing that part. Like, I. A lot of the stuff that I consume, like, that is, like, I just want to get it over with. But, like, I do that too with reality TV. There's, like, certain reality TV shows that I love watching reality TV, but I'm like, I just. I don't want to hear you whine, like, regular speed. Like, you're not my best friend that's venting to me. Can you just.ANA: Can you just do it? And, like, my best friend also, I think, goes through the same thing. Like, she literally just skips forward. Like, she sees a scene that's like, drama or something. It's just like, we're not watching this for the next five minutes and, like, jumps by the next thing, and I'm always like, but we're missing out on, like, really good gossip, you know?ADRIANA: This kind of reminds me of, like, in the olden days of, like, watching TV with commercials, especially, like, recording stuff on VHS because I'm that old and miss VHS, right? I feel a little nostalgic for that. But I remember, like, we'd record stuff, like, when I was growing up, and then my dad would fast forward through the commercials, and sometimes he'd, like, overshoot it by a bit. And then we're like, can you rewind to, like, where the commercial ended? Like, we're already into the thing. I want to know what happened.ANA: Yeah.ADRIANA: Anyway, yes, that's my digression. ADHD for the win. Okay, final question. Okay. What is your superpower?ANA: Probably having the coolest earrings.ADRIANA: You know, that is a good superpower because it always...ANA: It's a conversation starter. There's part of me, like, the theme that I'm going with my superpower is, like, being able to be in uncomfortable rooms and, like, strike up a conversation. Like, yeah, it might be very dry at the beginning, but for the most part, I can beat the china and, like, my herbic crap mode. But at the same time, like, my statement earring pieces are always, like, a great conversation starter or not for the, like, I don't know, maybe I've always been lucky about it, but. Cause I'm like. I guess when I think about it, I'm like, it is weird to be talking about earrings at a tech conference, but at the same time, it is part of who I am. Like, I like expressing myself that way. And my favorite thing is, like, fruit earrings.ADRIANA: Yeah.ANA: So I think that might be my superpower. And I'm only thinking of that because I just picked up, like, three more fruit earring pieces this past weekend.ADRIANA: Oh, awesome. And, you know, for the record, I've always loved your earrings. I think my favorite ones of yours are either the Kubernetes ones that you always wear for KubeCon or your fuzzy ball earrings. Those are so great.ANA: I actually, like, I've been playing around with the idea of starting a jewelry shop, and the reason that I want to start it is that I want to sell, like, pom pom earrings and then, like, figure out what other cute earring pieces I want to do. But, yeah, the fuzzy balls are, like, hard to find sometimes, and they bring me a lot of joy. Like, today I'm wearing papaya, which is just another fun tropical fruit. And, like, I actually have papaya in my fridge right now, which is awesome.ADRIANA: Papaya always brings me back to my childhood in Brazil because, like, I'd always be eating papaya at my grandma's house. So, like, and I'm the only one at home who likes papaya because, like, you know, my husband didn't grow up in the tropics, and my daughter just thinks papaya looks weird. So it's all me enjoying my papaya, and I love it. And it's like, it's. It's like, it's a comfort fruit.ANA: Yeah, same. Like it was. We had a tree in my house. Oh, that's. I think at some point that had two papaya trees. So for me, eating papaya is just part of, like, the common diet. Like, it has a lot of fiber.ADRIANA: Yeah.ANA: Just delicious fruit. Like, my family also does this thing that we eat it with a little bit of salt, and it brings up the sweetness. My favorite way of doing it is in yogurt bowls. So, like, eating, like, I actually picked it up from one of my trips. I'll do yogurt with papaya, granola, honey, and then passion fruit. Like, cut open a passion fruit and, like, dump the pulp in there, too. That is why that was a common dish. So, like, that became a staple for me.ADRIANA: That is super cool. I love it. I'm gonna have to try that sometime.ANA: Yes.ADRIANA: Cool. Well, we made it through the lightning round questions, which are not so lightning. I keep, you know, I call them lightning round questions, but I'm like, they're not really. That's what I was gonna say. Icebreaker questions, which is totally cool. I'm down for it.ANA: I was expecting them to be like, rapid fire. Like, if you hear the first response, I just went for it, like, real quick. Like, for me, lightning rounds are like those that you gotta, like, you got five minutes to get through these questions.ADRIANA: It should have been, but it's like, so much. It could be fun either way, right. You either, like, answer really fast or like, it turns into, like, this conversation piece, right? Like, where you can dive deep into. Into things and, you know, tease out other topics. So we got through the non lightning lightning round questions.ANA: Awesome.ADRIANA: Awesome. Well, I know, like, one of the things that we wanted to talk about when we were chatting before the recording started was because we've done some. We've been, we've done some. Some conference talks together and talking about the. The process of putting together talks. Yeah. So just like, getting your thoughts on, like, putting together cfps, writing solo talks versus partner talks. Yeah. So let's dig into that.ANA: Yeah, I think writing talks has always been fun. And it also comes from, like, I started doing diversity inclusion talks. That's how I got started in public speaking. And then later was like, oh, I should do about technical content that I know. Like, sorry, give about technical specifics that I work with. And it's a very scary process at the beginning, like, thinking about when I started public speaking to now first, like, when you're starting out, you don't necessarily always know, like, where to find conferences to speak at. So, like, trying to put it out there online that you want to give talks. A lot of people will start messaging you and tell you, like, I have this conference or I have this virtual event, I have this webinar.So a lot of it is about putting yourself out there and letting people know that you are capable of giving talks sometimes, like, for first time speakers. Like, you might need to record the talks yourself. Like, do, like, record yourself posted on YouTube and you'll, like, link out to those. That's probably, like, one of the best tips that I can give anyone that's trying to break into public speaking, just because a lot of folks, like, we don't mind having new speakers come on to our events. But we do need to know that you're capable of staying on topic for 25, 30 minutes and that you're also knowledgeable, that things make sense, and that you're coming well prepared with slides and content to share. But it's a, I think for me, like, it's a very similar process of, like, writing a talk solo or writing one together. I start out by looking at the conference, like, who are the type of people that are going to be there, the personas, understanding what are the themes that are going on for this year, like, are we caring about scaling sustainability? Are we caring about complex issues? Is this just like a local event that's having a need for technical topics? And then I usually start like spinning up a Google Doc, I grab the conference, I make little...little boxes for all the inputs I need to put in a call for papers, and I start throwing ideas.Like, I want to talk about squirrels, I want to talk about how camping makes me think of preparing to do a big software engineering project. Like having all those requirements and going out and like setting up tents and you set up the scaffolding. So just having these ideas, you start putting them on a document and then I'll start making bullet points on those ideas or like link out to resources that I can leverage and start being like, okay, if I was on the other side of the table, what type of talk would I one want to accept and what type of talk would I see in the schedule that I want to come, come to? And that sometimes, like when I come up with the witty title that's kind of like the selling one, it's like, okay, we're about to have fun with this one. And yeah, I think in order to be a good public speaker, you need to have fun with what you're doing. You need to be able to not only craft that technical piece of content, but also when you're on stage, you need to be personable. People need to be able to like, listen to your voice. Sometimes if they find you funny, like that really helps. Or if you're creative and you can have a really nice creative touch to your slides or finding the right GIFs, movies to really craft that story.Like, it's really about that storytelling piece, sometimes. It comes about that way. And then from all those bullet points, I start writing out like sentences with those ideas. And sometimes the sentences don't match up to the next one, but that's kind of what starts getting like the thoughts out there and you start putting things in between to make it kind of flow. And you really want to be concise on your abstract that you're submitting. Like, the...I've been on various program committees and track chairs. And it's a lot to have to read to 100 to 300 proposals. And we're just looking for like, what is your experience with this type of technology or content? And why are you the best person to speak at it? What is the subject matter and why is it that this topic is relevant for attendees at this conference.So being able to answer those things quickly on your abstract really allows for the program committee to know, like, this person can actually speak upon this topic and they, they've put in time and effort into writing this abstract. And then after writing out the abstract is when we can kind of do the outline of, like, once again, I go...I love bullet points when it comes to crafting talks. So put in my little bullet points and it's like, these are the four sections that I want to have in a talk. And then you start kind of, like, flushing in, like, what are the pieces in the abstract that I said I was going to do? Did I mention I was going to do a demo? Like, let me slot some time for that. That's when you kind of start looking at, like, how much time do I have available to deliver this talk? And of course, when this process is done with a collaborator, like, I personally think the talks are just one more engaging, more fun. But you're also learning a lot more because you're having two brains come together to share two different experiences on, like, working with technologies. So, for example, like, we just finished writing our talk for Open Source Summit North America over in Seattle. Yeah, next week. It's already here.ADRIANA: I guess when this comes out, it'll be like, it'll be the week of. This week! At Open Source Summit!ANA: Yeah, but, like, this talk was a great example of, like, how collaborating on a talk went really well and it was a lot of fun where it was like, like, all right, we're talking about how make, how we're going to make the developer onboarding process better, and we're going to do that by leveraging platform engineering. But, like, let's trace back on, like, our prior experiences that we've had working at different jobs, understanding how great or terrible that experience was, and, like, how can we take those learnings, show them to attendees, but also really share the story of, like, we want to inspire you to make it better. And, like, let me give you some ideas on doing so. And you kind of get to, like, leverage, like, strengths and weakness, like, early on where you're just like, oh, I'm really good at, like, understanding the onboarding experiences. But when it comes to understanding what goes into a developer image, like, I mean, that's actually a really basic example. But, like, there's certain parts of, like, when you're building out the talk that you can say, like, this, this section is not going to be my strength. Take a first stab at it and I'll come and I'll do the second part at it. But while you do that, I'm going to be working on this other piece of it.And I felt like with this one, we tagged, we tag-team really well. Like, I got started on slides early on when you were, like, crafting out, like, research of the topics we were going to talk about. And then it was like, all right, like, let me grab that little outline you put together yesterday. I'm going to put it in the new slides and, like, then we can start putting all the pieces together. And then comes the fun part of finding images that go with the content, finalizing the slides. And, like, this is verbose. We only have 20 minutes. We can't talk about this.And then it's fun when it comes to crunch time. And you kind of need to, like, do the first dry runs and, like, really nail down timing and, like, really allow each other, each other's, like, voice to come out in the slides. Like, as you write out those speakers. Like, this is, this is how I feel about it and this is the slides I'm going to be really passionate about, or these are the ones that I want to say a joke about or, like, share a personal story on. So it's, it's a lot of fun.ADRIANA: Yeah. And I think you put it so well and there's, like, so many things to unpack there. One of the things that I wanted to talk about because, like, for me, when I got into this DevRel role, I'd done a bit of talking. Like, mostly, like, I think my, my last talks had been in like 2019 for a couple of local Meetups. And so, you know, I wanted to put myself out there more for, for doing more talks. And I'll admit, like, I didn't really know what I was doing when I was submitting CFPs initially. And I, you know, like, your guidance really helped because you've done this for a while. So you knew kind of like the things that are, that make for an enticing CFP.But it was interesting because getting those first few rejections, like, it really hurt. And at first I'm like, oh, my God, I suck. But you realize, first of all, maybe I might have sucked in the beginning. True. But sometimes it's a case of you don't suck. It's just there's a lot of really good stuff out there. And I think having been on a few program committees, both you and I were on program committees, different program committees for KubeCons, like, understanding, like putting the hat of, like, as someone who's selecting talks. This is what I would think is interesting, and this is what makes other people stand out. I think having...putting that hat on in a lot of ways makes you a better CFP writer because then you're like, oh, yeah, of course, these, these are the things that I'd be looking for, but also, like, being okay with, with the rejection. And I think what you said, like, putting talks out on YouTube, like, if you get rejected, write the talk anyway, whatever. Like, put it out there. Put the ideas out. The other piece of advice that I gave to people is, like, get yourself in Meetups. Like, it is a lower barrier to entry because Meetups are always looking for speakers anyway. So, you know, this is such a great way to just build up your talking chops and then you can, like, publicize it on the socials, right? Like, hey, I spoke at this Meetup. And then the more you put yourself out there and then talk about it, you have to, like, share with the community that you're doing these talks because then it leads to other people, like, singling you out, as you mentioned.Like, oh, hey, we're having this, like, whatever online event. We're looking for people. Like, I remember you were saying it was Conf42 had reached out to you for. For some stuff early, earlier in the year, and it was because, like, you had, you had your speaking chops. So the more you put yourself out there, the better, right?ANA: Yeah. Getting a chance to constantly share, like, your expertise in a topic really does get you the next opportunities. It sucks that it's that way, but, like, that little part is a little broken of, like, my head goes back into, like, the person blindness of ADHD to you...like, if you're not constantly seeing someone, you forget about them or you forget about what their expertise in. So they're not top of mind when it comes to opportunities that you have your organization or conference, that you're not necessarily thinking about it, while if that person is constantly putting out, like, I'm still working on this. I'm still talking about this. I'm very knowledgeable in this. I just finished launching this around this topic.Like, it really helps craft those opportunities. But I do love what you said about Meetups. And, like, we also get to look at the time with the pandemic as, like, it allowed for a lot of online, like, it allowed for various online communities to be created and be fostered. And we used to say, like, start local of, like, when you want to start public speaking, but start online if you don't know, like, there are so many meetups that are happening online. You can always go to meetup.com or go on Twitter and like, look up your city, look up your topics and leverage, leverage, like, those type of resources to find something that you can speak up. And of course, if you're able to, like, putting it out there of like, hey, I'm a new speaker and I would like to talk about OpenTelemetry, reliability, and incident response. Someone out there might be able to, like, reshare that LinkedIn post, a Twitter post and, like, it will land on the right homepage for someone.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. So true. It makes such a difference. And the more you promote yourself, the better. But it's funny because promoting yourself can feel like, I've talked to a couple people about this. Like, it feels weird, right? It's like, look at me. Look at what I'm doing. But it's like, if you don't, no one else is going to unless they're like super fans of your work.ADRIANA: But they won't become super fans of your work unless you promote yourself. So get out there. Get out there.ANA: It's funny you say that one because that's actually the one that I feel like my muscle that is not as strong anymore. Like, I think past jobs, it was a little easier since it was a topic that less people were talking about, chaos engineering. And I guess Observability is still not like a topic that everyone's talking about, but there's definitely a little bit more content out there, more folks are talking about it. And I always felt like I struggled promoting myself in the Observability space because it was like, oh, but I'm not one of the best at this space, so, like, let me not share about it. But it's only hurting me at the end of the day on not doing so. So, like, it's still on, like, my to do list to pick up, like, a better way to socialize a lot of the last things that I've done or upcoming work. So it was actually really, it's always been really awesome to see the way that you have it set up with Buffer over, like, scheduling out all your posts for all the work that you're constantly doing. Like, I remember when you had just gotten started in this and I was like, hey, if you want to do it right, this is how you do it. So I'm glad my advice works for folks. I just need to be the one that practices sometimes.ADRIANA: I feel ya. Yeah, and it's interesting, too. Like, in our line of work, like, part of it is really like working on a personal brand as much as like, we're working on behalf of the company's brand as well, which makes it kind of, it's an interesting job. It's like this duality to our job. And so staying on top of like, promoting your own stuff so that as a result, the work that you're doing for X company gets seen is super important.ANA: Yeah, it's a weird balance of like, I'm getting paid to grow the company's brand, but at the same time, like, many people won't listen to a company's brand, but they'll listen to employees of that brand.ADRIANA: Yeah.ANA: So you kind of have to strike a balance of like, let me not be someone that's just doing sales pitches on stage and at the same time just talk about the technology that empowers some of the solutions or some of the best advantages and benefits. Doing some of this work does and kind of keep that vendor part out of it. And then it's like, if you want to talk to me, find me offstage, find me on the Internet and we can talk shop. But I think there's like, as I see people starting out sometimes, like, that's a part that they struggle with of like, oh, I'm very eager about my job and I want to make sure I put my best foot forward. But at the same time, like, you can still do that by not putting branding and vendor stuff all over the place. Yeah, so it's always interesting to watch that. And yeah, if you're not constantly curating your personal brand, like, it's hard for people to connect with you or like, find, like, back to the point of like continuing to find you relevant or like, keep you in mind, like early on.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, the, it's the slippery slope, what you were saying with our line of work, because like, we're not, we're not part of sales, so. But our job is to get people excited about technology and if it brings people to the, you know, the brand that we're working for, then awesome. But really we want to get people excited for the technology and then to ask the follow up questions. I'm not here...like, that's not my job to sell you on the product. That is my job to like, connect you with cool technology and connect you with other people in the space. And it's almost like, and I think like, we were lucky too...ADRIANA: And working in OpenTelemetry specifically that we get to work with, we get to work with, quote, unquote frenemies, if you will, because, like, we're working with competitors, but we all have the same ultimate goal of getting people jazzed about OpenTelemetry. And so we all do work that benefits each other, which is very cool. I love it.ANA: Yeah.ADRIANA: Yeah.ANA: It's getting a chance to still have friends even though they're working at competitors is really neat. Whereas, like, just because you and I are not carrying the same logo does not mean that we could not have like, a working relationship together and collaborate on like, making the ecosystem better, making documentation better, making getting started experience better. Like, I guess this is a plug for the get started OpenTelemetry survey that we just created at KubeCon where it's like ServiceNow Cloud Observability, New Relic DevRels, like, came together and it's like, well, we know that getting started in this to pic can be very daunting for some folks and some people need more handholding than others. But what does that look like? We know all vendors are having these questions. Why don't we, as the end user say, come together and put those questions out for our community, but also make these questions kind of specific with the audience in mind of like, what are the DevRels and marketing and sales folks want to know about their OpenTelemetry users? So it's also like, let's actually all work together so that we do make the ecosystem better. And like, it's really nice to be able to do stuff like that of like, we're going to remove our vendor hat, we're going to put our open source, we care about our users, we care about solving very specific problems. And like, we're doing it together and it's going to be better for everyone. It's going to bring the community together.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. That's what I really love. The other thing that I wanted to go back to is talking about the process of crafting a talk and specifically, like, crafting talks with different talk partners. Because like, you know, I've done, I've done a couple of talks with you, and I've done a couple of talks also with Reese, who was one of my first guests on this podcast. And it's so interesting because I did two talks this past KubeCon with Reese. We did a talk for Observability Day, and then went on the...one for the observability track at KubeCon EU. And it's so funny the way that she and I work is so different from the way that you and I work.And coming hot off the heels of working with Reese, I'm like, I started applying the same principles of working with her to working with you. And I'm like, oh, no, I have to, like, switch my brain off because it is completely different working styles. Because, like, when I worked with Reese, like, our main goal is like, let's write a blog post to organize our thoughts first and get that mostly, you know, locked in before putting together the slides and. But working with you, it's like, we're kind of dipping into both a little bit, right? Like, the blog post was our initial basis, and then I had started working on that on the flight home from KubeCon, and then I ended up scrapping, like, most of what I had written, which is fine. Like, it's the creative process in favor of, like, you know what? Let's have, like, a proper brainstorm session, create an outline. And then we ended up throwing a bunch of stuff on slides and then, oh, we wrote the speaker notes for the slides that goes into the blog post now. Like, it was like, it was...organized chaos.ANA: Yes. It was a very iterative, and, like, that's the nice thing about online collaboration tools, is that you can kind of dip back and forth on, like, I'm gonna do this part of it and you can work on something else. But I'm very much like, I don't know if it's like, my visual learner aspect of it that, like, my brain is able to analyze the content better when it's spaced out in slides. That's why, like, one of the first things I did was, like, put the outline together. And once I see the outline, I can see like, like, kind of like a sandwich. Once I see, like, the breads, I can start putting condiments and I can start putting in, like, protein and dairy. Um, but if I don't see the bread, I'm not going to think about making a sandwich.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel, yeah, I feel ya. Yeah. And, yeah, that definitely helped us a lot. The, the other thing that I wanted to mention is, like, you know, making talks fun, because for me, as an ADHDer, um, I have a really hard time concentrating on talks. I would actually rather watch a talk, like, on YouTube after the fact, and spend my conference time on the hallway track making connections with people, because it's so much more engaging for me. For me to be able to sit through a talk at a conference, it has to be really engaging for me. I always make it a point of ensuring that whatever talk I'm doing has to have, like, some fun sort of like engagement, whether it's through the slides, whether it's like, the energy that I bring. Fun t-shirts, like our one for Chicago, KubeCon North America in Chicago last November.Yeah, we made...we did another talk on platform engineering and we made, like, these t-shirts with llamas and we played different personas and our slides had llamas. And it was amazing.ANA: I'm 100% agree with you. Like, I think, I think about just dry talks that I've been to. And I try to be the complete opposite. Of, like, I don't want a white background with, like, a blue border that just gives me dense and, like, like walls of text here and there, architecture diagrams that have zero animations or color to them. Like, let me strive to be the complete opposite of that. And I think that's what's made me love DevRel. Like, I get to leverage my creative side and I get to, like, leverage my analytical tech chops at the same time. So when it comes to crafting those talks together is like, I want the fun slides. I want there to be GIFs to break up, like, the shop-y content or like, to grab your attention again, because I know you're not going to be paying attention to me for 30 minutes.You're going to be coming in and out. You're going to check your phone. You're gonna be thinking about lunch. You're gonna be thinking about what the afternoon plans hold. And I still want to continue, like, giving you this expertise that I know and this knowledge, but I also have to understand that we're humans. And, like, the pandemic did that part where, like, our attention spans got a little more tainted and, like, they're just not as sharp as they used to be. So how can I use other things, other fun, creative outlets to bring your attention back? So I know for our talks, we create Dall-e, like, just AI-generated images for our slides. And they're very fun out of context.ANA: Like, if you follow us on social media, we just shared some otters wearing cowboy hats and bandanas hanging out in the wild west while holding laptops.ADRIANA: Yep. Yep.ANA: Wouldn't that make you want to come to a talk? I hope it does.ADRIANA: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.ANA: It's really about, like, let me show you something visually. Let me catch your attention again. So sometimes, like, it's even making that announcement of, like, if you're not paying attention to my talk, this is that one to one or two minutes where I'm gonna give you a spiel that is, like, literally probably what you came here for. Like, how this implementation worked out or which organizations are doing this, what case studies that we have around it, or let me show you the demo. Like, sometimes demos are like, that part. That is the reason that engineers come to our talks. Like, they really want to see the technical chops and they really want to see things work together. That "Aha!" moment together and then is also, like, giving you more resources to take home, too. Like, I think that's one of my, like, things that I love putting in every single talk where is, like, I didn't craft all this knowledge by myself. Like, I've talked to other people about it. I've, like, read things on it. So let me share that part of my knowledge with you of, like, where to go to to learn more, but also with the understanding that a lot of people just can't pay attention in talks, but they can go read a 20 page paper on a really cool topic and nerd out. So that's also another way that by coming to my talk, I still give you that learning opportunity. Like, it might not be my talk that gives you, gets you to learn, but that survey might get you to learn something new.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. It becomes the gateway to, you know, to further knowledge. That's awesome. Well, we are coming up on time. I could talk about this forever and ever and ever. I will say, though, if you're, if you're in Seattle the week of the 14th, 15th, 14th, 14th, 15th. Yeah. If you're in Seattle that week and are at Open Source Summit, come see us. Come see our talk. We have an otter theme for our slides this time around. We had lots of fun making them. I can't tell you how many times I laughed at the images that you generated with your prompts. It was so much fun. So much fun. I will never not use Dall-e for slides again.ANA: Every once in a while, I consider prompt...I consider putting prompt engineer on my LinkedIn title just for funsies.ADRIANA: Oh, my God. I feel like. I feel like that could be legit. That's awesome. Before we part ways, do you have any final words of wisdom that you would like to share with our audience?ANA: Final words of wisdom? I think part of it is connect with other people. Mental health is something that really matters to me. I like the idea of people connecting with one another. Like, be on social media, connect with someone else that you don't know. Find a topic of interest. I see as, like, the loneliness crisis just getting worse and we need to lean on one another to make it out in this world and leave it better than we found it. So getting a chance to reach out to someone new, making you a friend. Like, whether it's in person, at an event, or whether it's online. Like, I used to always say, like, find me on Twitter and I'll connect you with someone new. But Twitter is not necessarily a home anymore. But, like, yeah, you can find me. Like, you can find me on all social still and, like, ask me to introduce you to someone in certain technologies or certain communities or point you to a Slack channel that might be a community closer to you. Like, I have a few that are, like, specific to Latinos in tech. There's some that are on mental health. There's some that are about certain technologies. And I think more than ever, we still need to foster those connections for, one, learning something new, two, to network, and three, to just stay connected as humanity.ADRIANA: That's awesome. I'm totally down for that. And I can vouch for...for Ana's connections because you're the one who originally connected me with Abby Bangser. And then she's, like, connected me with all sorts of other people. So it works.ANA: I think so many. I think a few of my connections have ended up on the podcast, too. So it's always...ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's awesome. That's right. Yeah. Tim Banks as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome, Hazel. Yeah, so that's what I was thinking.ANA: I was like, there's Hazel.ADRIANA: So there you go. Connections do matter. So, yeah, that's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Ana, for geeking out with me today, y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...ANA: Peace out and geek out.ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento .me /geekingout.

About our guest:Marino Wijay is a Canadian, Traveller, International Speaker, Open Source Advocate for Service Mesh, CNI, Kubernetes, and Networking. He is an Ambassador @ Civo Cloud, and Lead Organizer for KubeHuddle Toronto. He is passionate about technology and modern distributed systems. He will always fall back to the patterns of Networking and the ways of the OSI. Community building is his driving force; A modern Jedi Academy.Find our guest on:X (Twitter)Find us on:All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingoutAll of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillelaShow Links:KomodorKubeHuddle Toronto 2024Marino's Tweet on JavaAtlassian BambooTim Banks brings out the clack fan on Geeking OutOn-Call Me Maybe podcast with Adriana Villela and Ana Margarita MedinaDavid Flanagan (aka @rawkode)KubeHuddle Edinbrugh 2022TTC (Toronto Transit Commission)All Things OpenOpen Source SummitMatty StrattonDevRel CollectiveKelsey Hightower on Geeking OutAdriana's KubeCon EU 2024 talk on Prometheus and OTelAdditional Links:Check out Marino's upcoming talks:Open Source Summit NA - Workshop on Identity and AuthenticationDevNexus - Platform Engineering SecurityDevOpsDays Raleigh - Networking Platform Consolidation in 2024Transcript:ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out. The podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela. Coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Marino Wijay of Komodor.MARINO: Komodor. Love it. Thank you so much, Adriana, for the introduction.ADRIANA: Thank you for coming on. Where are you calling from today?MARINO: I'm actually not too far away from you. About, I don't know...40 minutes east out in Whitby, Ontario. Nice little town in the GTA, somewhere near Toronto. Close enough.ADRIANA: Awesome. Yes. Close enough that we still embrace Toronto-ishness.MARINO: I know, right? Like, it's...there's this running joke that in order to get to Toronto, you have to cross Toronto and go through Toronto to get to Toronto because that's how large it is. And then even then, someone you're trying to, like, cross to get to other cities or something, it is a reality. Yeah, that's. That's what we're stuck with.ADRIANA: Cool. All right, well, we're going to start with some lightning round questions, or I guess more. More icebreaker questions. Okay, first question is, are you a lefty or a righty?MARINO: I'm a lefty. Wow.ADRIANA: Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I get so excited with fellow lefties.MARINO: There we go. Okay, so that's...okay...I'm kind of cheating because I also do use my right hand a lot because I use my right hand for my mouse.ADRIANA: Yeah, me too.MARINO: So in a way, I'm ambidextrous, but I do a lot of my work with my left hand, so I'm with you. I love it.ADRIANA: Yay. I was like, IDing lefties. Like, I'll be watching a TV show with my daughter...My husband and my daughter are both right-handed. Poor them. And I'll be like, hey, see the way that guy's holding his glass? He's left-handed.MARINO: We are actually still trying to assess whether our son is a righty or a lefty. I think he's a lefty, but my partner thinks that he's a righty. We'll have to wait and see. A couple more years.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I know. That was...I was. I was, like, dying with anticipation, waiting to see if my daughter was going to be left-handed. And she's so artistic, so I thought for sure she was going to be left-handed, but alas, that's okay. But she. She does archery left-handed, so...MARINO: Oh, interesting. Okay.ADRIANA: There you go. Okay, next question. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?MARINO: iPhone all the way. IPhone. It's such an ecosystem. I mean, the moment you enter, it's like everything is, is like stitched together so elegantly. I mean, Android is like, yeah, you know, sure, you could do whatever the heck you want, but, oh, you want to integrate? No, that's not happening. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, that's not happening.ADRIANA: Yeah, I'm with you there. I buy into the cult of Apple and I'm okay with it. And you know, like, I know a lot of Android people are like, but you can customize all this stuff. I'm like, yeah, but I don't really want to. I'm okay with the way it is out of the box. That's cool. I'll customize other stuff. Not my phone, I think.MARINO: Yeah, it's a lot of the experience and just the friendliness and simplicity. Like I have no mental capacity to try and like navigate Android's UI. Like, I don't want, I don't want to figure stuff out. I just want to be able to do things right.ADRIANA: Yes. Yeah, I'm there with you. Okay. Follow up question. Mac, Linux or Windows?MARINO: Well, this is a tough one because someone asked this on Twitter earlier today and it was either between Mac or Windows and someone came in and said Linux. And I'll be honest, I think it's for what you want to do or what you're intending to do. It's going to have to be all three. For me. I can't pick one because if I try to play games on my Mac, it's never happening. If I pick Windows, I can't do development or Iubernetes very wel. If I pick Linux and I'm probably looking up documentation how to make XYZ work, but then I have like, you know, so much like each one has its own thing. I gravitate towards the Mac because it's such a, such a beautiful device. Everything works out of the box just like our iPhone.And for what we need and what we're trying to do for the majority of our tasks and operations, great. But that's where I'm like, hey, what if I want to play games? What if I, what if I want to get into the nitty gritty and start like going underneath the hood of the operating system? And you cannot do that with a Mac. Even Windows you cannot do that with. So it's okay, fine. If I had to pick Mac. All right, sorry.ADRIANA: No, that's good, that's good. I love it, I love it. I think this has been. And your argument makes a lot of sense because each one is very well suited for different things, so. Totally agree. Yeah. I was trying to convince a friend of mine a while back to switch to Mac as his primary computer. He's like, but you can't do gaming on it like you do with Windows.ADRIANA: I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true. Alas, you need all three.MARINO: Yeah, I'm staring at all three right now.ADRIANA: Or virtual machines, right? You got one machine with, like, massive compute power and then VM, the other stuff.MARINO: I thought about that, too. But if I showed you my desk or like, my office space, I'm okay. I've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 computers in this little space. Yes. Various operating systems for fun.ADRIANA: Nice. That's awesome. Yeah. Once upon a time, I used to have a similar command center of computers.MARINO: It gets overwhelming, though, at times.ADRIANA: And then you lose track. Like, what was this for again?MARINO: What was the IP? What was the password?ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right.MARINO: Yeah, I'll just reimage it, whatever.ADRIANA: I don't remember. Out of sight, out of mind.MARINO: Yeah.ADRIANA: Okay, next question. What's your favorite programming language?MARINO: Ooh, this is a tough one. Um, the, the. My favorite programming language is one where I don't have to remember syntax and there are none where I, you know, that exists, unfortunately. If I had to pick one though, I would probably gravitate back to Java. And it's funny because, like, I even tweeted about this yesterday about how I should go back and relearn Java after so long.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I remember that.MARINO: And, like, there's people that are for it, against it. Some people are probably thinking, what the hell? What the fuck is wrong with this guy? He's probably said this every year. And it's funny because every year I do tweet something about Java or the fact that I will get back into the ecosystem. And I started learning Java years ago, like 20 years ago.ADRIANA: Yeah.MARINO: And, and it was in school and it became a point where it was like, this could become a real thing, a project. But at the same time, like, I'm a golden retriever and you, there are other things that probably interest me more. And at the time, Java wasn't it. Then 20 years later, you start to see this massive Java ecosystem with Spring and Gradle and everything in between, and it's like, what the hell did I just miss? Right? But that also speaks to the fact that if you're in this ecosystem or you're looking to transition away from, let's say, the Kubernetes ecosystem. There's another place you can go to, right. And it wouldn't be so difficult to jump from Java seven all the way to what is it, Java 18 now or Java 20 or I don't even know what version they're on.ADRIANA: Yeah, I've lost track of the Java.MARINO: And that's going to be Kubernetes too. Like 20 years from now we'll be at like Kubernetes 30.0 or something like that.ADRIANA: You're basically saying you don't think Kubernetes is going to go away.MARINO: Yeah, it probably.ADRIANA: It's like Java. We're like too heavily invested in it.MARINO: Yeah. Well when you think of, so look at the ecosystem of Java and how big it's become and then you look at that ecosystem within Kubernetes cloud native and it's not like it's shrinking or consolidating, it just keeps growing and something else comes up every year. And when it does come up, when that new area comes up, you see all these open source technologies and players also show up. So I don't think it's ever ending. I think we'll just see a massive community in Kubernetes 3.0 or 30.0 by then in 20 years and it'll look so different.ADRIANA: Oh yeah, I'll bet, yeah. I mean, even thinking back to Java, like, I started learning Java...definitely...It must have been like around '99 when I started learning Java and it was the hot new language, right? And I mean that was...that was the place to be. I remember my first job out of school was, was at Accenture and they wanted to like put me on the, on the SAP group and I'm like, but I want to do Java.MARINO: So cool, right?ADRIANA: Yeah. because it's so cool! And I managed...I made...you know, half my career is, is, you know, thanks to, thanks to Java and being like ass deep in Java for so many years and, and then like I went through a period where I hadn't touched Java for, for years and then I was just doing something at work, I don't know, like three jobs ago and, and it was, I was doing some automation with Bamboo. And at the time the only way to automate, like to create any like codified CI/CDpipelines with Bamboo, they had a Java API. So I went...I came out of Java retirement, had to like relearn all the stuff. I didn't have like a Java IDE or anything installed on my machine. I even took on the brave adventure of trying to install, like, all the Java plugins on VSCode, which wasn't a disaster, and came out of retirement for this, like, final hurrah of, like, building the CI/CD pipeline in freaking Bamboo using their Java API, which was like, it was special. It was very special. And that was it for me.ADRIANA: This was, I think, back in like, 2018, 2017.MARINO: Yeah, we, we have certainly come a long way since then.ADRIANA: I know, right?MARINO: Yeah. Java. It would be Java.ADRIANA: Cool. Cool. Awesome. Okay, next question. Do you prefer dev or ops? Do you have a preference?MARINO: I prefer ops. I prefer to be able to. It's nice to be able to build things, but I also love to be able to see things and see how they work and see the blinking lights and the things that go wrong, the things that have gone red versus that are staying green. And it's because I've had a past in ops and the things that broke that, you know, forced me to decide how do I best solve this problem also drove a lot of curiosity. On the other hand, that's not to say that being a developer or a builder doesn't drive that same level of curiosity, but I like to see when things go wrong and that translates to the operations side for me.ADRIANA: Nice. Awesome. And then next question. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?MARINO: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. JSON lovers. I totally love YAML. I'm YAML on board. YAML ninja. YAML all the way. YAML all the things,MARINO: if we can...if we could totally do that.ADRIANA: I'm with you. I'm with you. I have this disagreement with my husband, who's also in tech, and he prefers JSON. And I'm like, how can you like, I can't fucking read JSON.MARINO: And that's just it, right? Like, all those extra curly braces is just noise to me. And I'm like, why do you need that noise? What's the point of that? Sure, it creates some level of scoping or maybe makes things look like, look like it's grouped together, but to me, YAML just reads so elegantly. Like, I could read through it, like a top down list or something, you know?ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I'm fully with you there. Similarly controversial. Do you prefer spaces or tabs?MARINO: So I like, here's the thing. When it comes to, when it comes to writing code and whatnot, for the sake of, like, just making things look nice, I would much prefer tabs. But I think it comes down to, like, just syntax and, you know, what a space does versus what a tab does. And, like, quite honestly, I don't know if one has a larger effect over the other. If I can make everything with tabs, certainly, you know, it makes things look so much more readable. Spaces can get a little wonky because at the same time, you don't know how many spaces you have and your eyes play tricks on you at times.ADRIANA: Yeah, true, true.MARINO: Right.ADRIANA: But then you can get into the nitty gritties of like, how big is your tab? Is it the equivalent of four spaces or two spaces?MARINO: That's just it, right, because, you know, it's a tab versus a space.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I've gotten, that's one, one place as much as I love YAML, one place where I've gotten dinged where like, you know, you open up a YAML doc and whoever it is, define the default tabs sizes, like to, but like, on my IDE is set to four. I'm like, ah, yeah, damn it.MARINO: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.ADRIANA: And then, and then things get angry. Okay...do you prefer to consume content through video or text?MARINO: So I prefer both. And it all depends on how long form the content is. If it's like too long, didn't read perfect, if it's 30 seconds or less perfect, and it's just my attention span and how it works. Right. And I think it's the majority of folks in tech, too. I don't think a lot of people like to spend a lot of time reading. They do, like watching. And this, like, for example, if this was a video cast as well, which I think it is.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah.MARINO: I think people, people may like, watch us for our, for our reactions and, you know, our expressions and stuff. But this is also great to have as background noise. Right. But if I want to watch something just to kind of like, you know, stimulate my mind a little bit, the 30 seconds or less is the way to go for me. It can't be one or the other. I have to have a balance of both because sometimes even video isn't enough for me. And the text helps me process ideas or it helps me process an understanding of something a lot better than a video does at times, vice versa.ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. For me, I like to be able to skim through text. So, like, I'm doing a tutorial. I'm like, I want to skip ahead and see, like, where this is going. And video, I'm like, oh, my God, where's this guy going? And that I find excruciating. But, like, I'm okay to, like, sometimes treat a video as, like, a podcast, right?ADRIANA: I'll...I won't necessarily look at the video, but I'm interested in just, like, what the audio is. And then when...but then when they have the visual stuff, I'm like, crap.MARINO: Yeah. It's good, though, that we do the video part, too, because it's just nice to, like, see people in their own element and. And being able to just be expressive about ideas and whatnot. I do Twitter spaces, and I'm sure you've seen a lot of them. And while it is very low pressure and the fact that I don't have to, like, dress up or wear anything, anything at all, it's still, like, you're still engaging, but you don't get to see the other person. Right. And I've also found that when you do live streams or something like this, people feel a little bit more connected to you as well. Get to see your face and hear your voice at the same time. That's why I do live streams.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree. And, like, we've had. I remember, like, when I used to do On-Call Me Maybe with...with Ana, and it used to be like, we...we only did on the, like, audio only, right? And I vowed, like, next podcast, I'm gonna do audio and video because, like, we had, we had some guests come on with, like, such fun, like, you know, office setups or, like, awesome hair, right? Like, funky hair colors that I'm like, oh, I want people to see this. Or, like, my first season of Geeking Out, Tim Banks came on, and he had, like, a fan that he pulled out a couple of times throughout the episode. I'm like, you just don't get that, you know, cool visual cue when you're just listening to it. So I think it's nice to have the option to do both. And I agree. Just having the visual is very cool.MARINO: Oh, yeah. I'm totally on board with that.ADRIANA: Okay, final question is, what is your superpower?MARINO: Procrastination. It's...as dangerous as it is to say? I think when you're literally down to the last few minutes of anything, your brain rewires itself to ensure that you're successful. I don't know if this is everyone, but I found that the case to be with me in that I could try anything and everything in my power to do my best job a month before something is due, but it won't be anywhere near as good as maybe doing it the day before or the day of. And that's why, like, in a lot of ways, it's bad. It really affects your time management. But I've performed way better when I limitedly prepare myself, and then I just show up as if I'm parachuting out of a helicopter. And I have very limited context. And the reason why that is, is because, I think it...and this is very tied to us being in DevRel as well.ADRIANA: Yeah.MARINO: We have this very strong ability to think on our feet in that we can stitch ideas very quickly because there's information that's being processed in real time, just in time to make those decisions quickly enough. But when we have all this data in front of us ahead of time, it just, like, it's noise, right?ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.MARINO: And that's why I think, like, procrastination, as bad as a word it is, or it may come across to people, it is a superpower because it's consolidating all of your mental energy into a confined amount of time for you to make the right rapid decisions on the spot. And that's been my superpower for, like, the last probably decade or more. And it's worked out. There have been times where it hasn't worked out. And I think, like, those times, I reflect back on what went wrong or why it went wrong or what could have changed differently. But for the majority of things I've done, yeah, it works.ADRIANA: That's so great. I love that you called out procrastination as a superpower, because the way you described it is so absolutely perfect. There's nothing more than, like, having the fear of God put into you as you have to, like, meet some deadline. And you're right. Like, for me, some of my best work has been under extreme pressure. I have...I think the first time I noticed that, um, procrastination worked in my favor...I had this boyfriend in university who was a very, very needy boyfriend, and he was, like, always picking fights with me.I know. Like, and this was in my fourth year university, and it was, like, the least amount of studying that I had done in all my four years of university because this guy was, like, always on my ass, like, complaining about shit. And so I didn't have time to study. So then the little time I had to study, I had to make the most of it. And I'm like, oh, my God, I did the best of all my four years because this guy was, like, being a pain in my ass. And that...that was my kind of, "Aha!" Moment of, like, okay, this...This is a thing. And I love that you called out procrastination as a superpower because we should look at it that way.MARINO: It is. It's just your ability to, to really maximize impact and output for a shorter, like, spurt and spa...amount of time. And that, like, that becomes apparent, like, when you're starting to assess projects and your own, like, motivations, your own energy levels. I do best in smaller spurts and smaller, like, sprints than I do, like, over a longer marathon. You will never find me sitting in front of my computer for more than, like, an hour, right? 'Cause I'm just very fidgety. I like to get up.I like to get around unless I need to be there. And I'm actually engaged. And that's a different thing, too, because I'm engaged, I'm actually doing something. But in the time that I'm meant to be productive, like, literally the magic and sparks and everything just flies, and my brain is rewiring itself to make sure it's all possible. So, you know, for folks that are listening to this later on, right? You may think that procrastination is or potentially might make you believe that you're lazy or you're not able to accomplish something, but it's like that moment where all of that, all of your energy is just harnessed together, right? And it's just like, you just got to execute that time. But it's, folks, you gotta, like, really assess when that is right. And for me, it took me a while to figure out that it's not literally the moment before it's due. It's maybe a few hours or a day before, and that's where I can harness that energy.ADRIANA: Yeah. And I think the other thing, too, that we don't...we sort of take for granted is the fact that while you're procrastinating, your mind is actually working in the background. So it's not like nothing is happening. So I will...when...when I'm aware enough of it, I will actually say, like, I don't want to deal with this now because I need to let it just percolate in my mind and I'll come back to it later. And I find it makes such a huge difference because, like, there are connections being made that you're not even aware of, and then they suddenly come out when, when, when it's time.MARINO: I think that's just it, right? Like you just said it, your brain is literally in let's figure this out mode. And when the time is right, which is literally moments before it needs to happen, it's going to happen. And that's, that's the beautiful thing about our brains, like, and how they work. I really wish there's more. There was, like, a lot more information and studies around, you know, the mindset and, you know, the behaviors of folks that procrastinate and what actually drives them to just perform a lot better in those scenarios. Like, I'm literally staring in the face of a presentation I haven't even built yet, and I'm gonna have to figure out how to build it, like, literally for next week.ADRIANA: That was my KubeCon life. I'm like, oh, my God, I have, like, four weeks to, like, learn about two topics for two talks, and I did not have any more time than that. And it's like this. I have to fit it in this timeframe and learn this stuff, like, mostly from scratch. I had a little bit of background information, but otherwise it was like, you know, hurry, hurry, hurry. Adrenaline just shot way up.MARINO: I was very happy that this one KubeCon, I didn't really have to stress too much about talks or, like, anything. Not actually. None of my talks got accepted. And while it did suck, it also felt really good that I didn't have that responsibility to actually feel like, oh, my gosh, I have to develop a presentation. Oh, my gosh, I got to do a demo as well.ADRIANA: Yeah.MARINO: Is this demo going to work, right?ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's the thing, right? It's like, you have the, yay, my talk got accepted, and then, oh, my God, my talk got accepted. So, yeah. And I think that's really important to underscore too. Like, first of all, getting accepted to KubeCon is really hard. Secondly, it's not the end of the world because if it you takes a lot of pressure off of you, and then you can, like, focus on, you know, just like, doing networking or whatever other KubeCon-y things, which is just as awesome.MARINO: It is. And by the way, congratulations for getting accepted to KubeCon. I heard it was a fantastic talk that I wasn't able to even, I wasn't even able to get into because it was a lineup out the door, and they cut off access to everyone, and they're like, sorry, not even standing was available. So, yeah, yeah. Bravo, bravo.ADRIANA: Thank you, thank you. Yeah, it was pretty wild. I did not expect that people would be so jazzed to hear about Prometheus and OpenTelemetry, but I'm glad that they were. So. Yay. Now, speaking of conferences, this is my lovely segue to talk about KubeHuddle, which you're organizing, and I am. I am volunteering for as well, we are.MARINO: We are co-organizing. We have equal ownership. We have equal responsibilities. Even though...ADRIANA: There's a lot of freaking work. There's a lot of work. Yeah. Talk about KubeHuddle, because it's happening in May, so. Yeah.MARINO: So first, I want to just say, like, thank you to all the organizers, whoever listens to this, especially you, Adriana. You put in a lot of work to ensure that we're going to have a successful conference. And this is important because when we're thinking about the right set of speakers, the right audience, the right set of sponsors, it's a lot more like thinking. It's not just about, yeah, we're gonna say yes to everything, or we're gonna say yes to our friends. It's very intentional, especially when it comes to a community based conference. Now, the history of KubeHuddle is interesting because it wasn't something that started off in Toronto. It was something that David Flanagan, aka @rawkode, started in Edinburgh in 2022. So that was the first event I went to.It spoke there, and I asked him, hey, can we do another one in Toronto? And he said, sure, let's. I'll support it. You know, do whatever you need to. I'll give you all the kind of the framework or the blueprint of how I did it for Edinburgh. So that worked out. Except, look, we're talking about Edinburgh versus Toronto. Two different cities, two different sets of costs. Availability is completely different, and we're talking about a massive, like, scale of a lot of different things.Anyways, so the planning started, like, probably towards the end of 2022. And, you know, we started the year 2023 with, like, almost nothing. We didn't have a website. We didn't have a CFP opened. We didn't even have our sponsors or anything. So, like, it was just me on Twitter and LinkedIn, just saying a bunch of stuff about KubeHuddle, right? Yeah, we're going to run KubeHuddle. It's going to happen. And then I'd get DMs being like, is there a website? Why does the website show Edinburgh? And I'm like, we'll get to that.So it was very slow going, and eventually things started to pick up. And I noticed around the mid-March, early April timeframe, when we had a lot of things already locked in. We already had a CFP closed, and everything was mostly sorted. It was really just getting the logistics locked down. Long story short, the event, you know, came by. It was a two day event. It was great. We had a lot of people.You even spoke at that event as well. So it was great to have you there. And we had a nice intimate conference. There was about 170 folks that showed up and it taught me a lot about, you know, how to handle this for the next time around in the sense that one don't use so many remote organizers because they have no idea around the logistics of being in Toronto, right? It's so vastly different. I was probably the only organizer that was Toronto based and being the only person to do all the research and try and find everything was not fun. I had my partner help out here and there and thank you for her.Thanks so much. Literally, if she's ever listening to this podcast, she probably will. Thank you, Anu. I appreciate you and I love you. But having said that, like, it all came together and it was a great event. But then I got asked, like, is there going to be another KubeHuddle? And I wasn't very, like, originally keen on the idea and it was because it was a lot of work the first time around and it was a lot of waiting and bottlenecking. And quite honestly, you know, having to be bottlenecked by so many different processes, even me becoming the bottleneck at times was not efficient at all, and it made for a very stressful experience. Now you take all of those learnings and you begin to realize that you could make this a lot more optimized.You can streamline this process. You already have structure in place to make this happen again. Here's how you can start to do it differently. You know, work with some folks in the community that are local first. So that's one of the reasons why you're here, because you understand Toronto and you understand this community really well, and then also work with, with others, too, that know this, this space. We had some folks that entered the team and it was okay. Like, quite honestly, when I think about it, it all works out at the end of the day. But it also made me realize, like, next year, if I decide to do it again, you know, really shore up on who's going to be local.Like, we want to make sure that there are much more local folks that are part of the organizing team, that embody the idea of what it means to be in Toronto as well, right? What it means to be Canadian. And really think about that lens as well, because I don't want it to be overly global centric. I also don't want it to be overly North American centric. Let's make it Canadian centric. There's plenty of other stuff going on outside of Canada. We kind of need our own thing, and we want to make it our own thing. But having said that, you know, the planning for this one is, like, many, many miles or kilometers ahead of what we were doing last year.And it's because, like, everyone understands their role, what they need to do. The messaging is clear. And, like, Adriana, you could literally tell me, this is your podcast. You could tell me what we could do to even improve, because we've still got, like, a month left, and there's things we have to do, right?ADRIANA: Yeah.MARINO: And I think it's coming together. I personally think that we're a lot more ahead than we were last year, which makes me feel a lot better about things. But with the. With the last four or five weeks that we have before the event, what else should we be doing to make this a really good event?ADRIANA: I think just doubling down on the...on the promos, I think, is the main thing. And I think, like, this year compared to last year, like, there is so much activity, so much activity on the socials for the promos, and I love that that's going on, but I think we can get more done. And, I mean, you know, one of the reasons why I invited you to come on the podcast, not only because you're awesome, but also I wanted um...give, like, an opportunity to, like, let's promote KubeHuddle. It's what, like, almost a little over a month away. Right? It's May 7, I want to say?MARINO: May 7. May 7. That's right.ADRIANA: Yeah. So it's. It's coming. It's coming our way very close, very fast.MARINO: It is coming up really quickly. But, you know, for folks that are listening into this and are thinking about attending, right? I'll give you a little bit of a rundown of what's going to happen. So it's a two track event. It's single day. It's happening at the Toronto Public Library or the Toronto reference Library by Yonge & Bloor, right?ADRIANA: Yeah.MARINO: So if you're in Toronto, it's very TTC accessible. Literally just you walk outside of the station and it's like, right there. And if you're not. If you're coming from far, then, you know, make your way to Union and then take the train down, or up, I should say. And then, you know, come in and join in for a day of workshops and excellent talks, as well as lightning talks around Observability, Kubernetes, cloud optimization, security, even. And even hear from, like, end users who are using the ecosystem in production and some of their own stories. And challenges. I think that's important because we do have a lot of great speakers that do the speaking rounds quite often, but we also have people that build the technologies.We also have people that implement and use the technologies and deal with the challenges of them as well. And it's important to see their perspectives, what they have to offer, as well as, you know, getting the opportunity to just chat with them and connect with them and growing your own network. You might be in the position where you're looking for your next opportunity, even. And this is a great place to come and meet some of those vendors, some of our sponsors, even, who...who might be hiring. There might even be folks that are just attending that are looking for their next peer or coworker, right? So it's great place to connect. It's not an in your face conference.We're not a KubeCon. We're not...we're not an All Things Open. We're not an OSSummit. We're a Kub huddle. We're about 200 ish, maybe 300 if we're lucky. But we're small enough that you could have conversations with people, and that's important, right? We don't. I honestly don't like massive conferences as much anymore because you don't have the ability to really talk to people.You have to talk over noise. You have to talk over other people. You have to talk over the music. You lose your voice. You have to deal with air conditioning and how it, like, dehumidifies the entire environment. So your mouth gets really dry. And, yeah, it's just not a very pleasant environment. Whereas you have smaller conferences...There's a lot that can happen.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's one thing that I really liked about KubeHuddle. Like, I found out about KubeHuddle because I think last year, Matty Stratton had posted something like, I'm speaking at KubeHuddle in Toronto. I'm like, there's a conference in Toronto? So then I started peeking around. I went on the DevRel slack, the avocado one, and I'm like, what's this KubeHuddle thing? Is this a legit conference? And so I was like, okay, this sounds pretty cool. And I applied to speak, and I had, like, zero...zero expectations. Like, I didn't know what to...what to expect. And it was my first year as a DevRel as well. So I'd seen the KubeCons. I'd seen the Open Source Summits. And then. So I'm like, I don't know what's, like, normal for a conference, right? Because they're vastly, vastly different experience. But this one, like, really blew my mind. I thought it was, like, so nice and cozy, and I. I got to meet a lot of really cool people from it, and I. I'm shocked that, like, you and I both, you know, live in the Toronto area and our paths have never crossed until now. But I'm very glad that our paths did cross last year, because it's been awesome. I've met so many cool people just...Just from KubeHuddle, and they're not even all from Toronto.MARINO: Right. It's phenomenal. Like, you know, it just takes an event or something of that equivalency for you to just be opened up to this brand new world of folks that, you know, you can interact with, collaborate with, and just network with for the future. And that's why I love events. Like, I've always loved events just for that one little thing. Right. Yeah. There's all these great talks. You can always catch the recordings, but you'll never get the opportunity to do the hallway track all the time, right? You'll never get that opportunity again for that point in time conference, because something magical is going to happen. I remember that one time at civil navigate. This was, like, last October, I think, in London, and Kelsey Hightower actually came into keynote, and he's been a guest on your podcast, right? But he has a very type, very interesting charisma about him that, you know, it only takes. You know, what I'm really going for is, like, he had this little group outside the venue.It was a little circle, and I would. I was walking back and forth throughout the venue because I was just trying to get some stuff done, and every time I came back to the circle, it would just get bigger and bigger and bigger. And we're not talking over, like, a course of, like, an hour. We're talking over a course of, like, 20 minutes, because I was just moving around, and that same circle just kept growing for a good several hours. Like, it just didn't let up at all. And I think, like, towards the end of the day is when it finally started to, like, collapse, because we had to go back into the venue for, like, the final, like, closing keynote or something like that. It was phenomenal to see these side hallway track conversations go on, and it's not centered around Kelsey. Kelsey is just the recurring character in a lot of these conferences, but the fact that he brings those people together to have these very diverse, fluid conversations amongst each other, not just directed towards him, but amongst each other.And he also sits there and listens. The fact that he has that kind of power means that, like, we should be doing this, too. Like, we should be going out to other places and bringing those folks together and connecting and networking and, you know, creating a sense of inclusiveness, because that's what he does. And that's what I think a lot of folks like, even you, too, and people others embody, especially when it comes to our little, you know, our little community here.ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I love that. I know, like, we're, we've got not too much longer left in our conversation. You have a hard stop. So I do want to switch gears for a sec and ask you, you know, like, we were talking earlier before we started recording about spicy takes. So, I mean, I am happy to have any spicy takes on the podcast. Is there anything that's happening right now that's kind of like really grinding your gears or whatever that you're feeling super passionate about?MARINO: Yeah, there's two things right now. So I'll start with the whole career and DevRel and contraction. And there's a lot of stuff going on in the DevRel space where there's much more demand for the time we spend out there in the community, for the time we get out to the conferences, right? So I know you do this very well. So I don't think this, this advice is applicable to you, but I think other folks that are either getting into DevRel or looking at this industry really need to take a hard look at, you know, how they can quantify and even, like, capture it as data around what they do and the kind of impact what they do drives. And I say this because what a lot of companies want, even though they won't say it, is they want tech marketing. What they also want is they want to see some of what your efforts do translate into revenue.And that sucks because there's no, like, there's no quota. There's no, like, you're here to make a sale. You're dealing with, you're working with a community and dealing with something called top of funnel, which in actuality is not your responsibility to close on. There's a sales team that has to go and execute. And if they're not executing, why is it DevRel's fault? It's not. Yeah. So I've always felt like DevRel always leads the charge in a variety of different directions. They are most connected internally as well as externally because they're connected to all the different organizations within a company, but they're also tapped into so many communities.And so to be that conduit that can see both sides of the conversation and the coin and to be able to take feedback both ways is such a powerful thing to have. But a lot of organizations and leadership teams and executives don't even know how to harness that kind of power. And that sucks. That's on their end. That's their loss. And, you know, screw them, because at the end of the day, they have the best assets on hand, the best resources to go and close the largest deals, even though you don't have to put them in front of, you know, an exec to close that deal. You literally let them need to do their thing, be the voice of the company and holy shit, the magic will flow. And it's a simple recipe where, you know, it's really hard for a lot of board members to just part with money, right?To see an investment kind of do its thing and like, see like it's not, not returning or doing its ROI. But if you play that long term game, right, if you decide you're just going to hold on a little bit longer, it's going to cash out hard and heavy and really good and really well. And the instant gratification is what's killing the DevRel dream.ADRIANA: Yeah, I feel, yeah, I feel ya. And you know, on a similar DevRel gripe, organizations that tend to align DevRel with marketing, I think end up positioning DevRel for failure because then it's like, oh, you have to churn out like x number of tutorials or blog posts or blah, blah, blah. And so all of a sudden you don't have that organic interaction of DevRel, right? It becomes a lot more forced and I take huge issue with that. And I'm grateful that where I'm at right now, like there isn't, like we're not aligned with marketing because I think it would be a very different story right now.MARINO: Yeah, I do think it's great to support other organizations or other teams in the organization and other, you know, functions like marketing and, and make sure that the efforts that DevRel does has some sort of common vision. Right?ADRIANA: Yeah.MARINO: But it shouldn't be at the tune of marketing. Marketing shouldn't be driving the direction of what developer relations or advocacy should be doing two different work streams altogether. But that's kind of led to something else that's gone on that actually leads me to my second hot take. There's been a lot of efforts around community. Community...and then you also see the side of where some open source projects are closing up shop or becoming a lot more enterprise and are locking down their open source offerings or changing up their licenses. And there is backlash. There's a lot of backlash around it.You see people being very upset about the open source contributions that have gone on and no one got compensated for it. And then you have these big corpos running off with all of these, all of this IP effectively and basically capitalizing. Right? But the...the one thing that was really interesting in all of this, right, you know, there's always the distraction and then there's the subtle nefarious thing going on behind the scenes. I'm paying attention to what's going on behind the scenes. And there, there are some interesting companies. I'm not going to name them because at the same time I also don't want to deal with anything legal. I'm not in the position to handle that right now. But there are some companies that are creating an approach that seems good, that seems like it's solving a variety of problems, but are also creating the, okay, I'm going to describe the diagram where you have that little dependency that if that dependency breaks, everything breaks. You know what I'm talking about, right?ADRIANA: Yeah.MARINO: That is what these companies are trying to become. And you may think that, or people listening might think, what the fuck is Marino talking about? Here's an example. If I build something that offers zero CVEs, I'm being a little bit more specific now, but if I offer something that builds zero CVEs into an image, which means you don't have to think. Think about common vulnerabilities and exposures or anything like that. You don't have to think about that. You just deploy your images, you're good to go. If you decide to use an ecosystem product, something in the CNCF that I've built an image for that produces zero CVEs, what happens when support is required, right? What happens when additional features need to be built? So where I'm going with this is building something very proprietary that now forces the hand of other vendors to pay up in addition to customers. And that's the nefarious thing that's going on that we're being distracted by with all this, you know, open source community kumbaya and all that stuff like that.And I say this because if you pay attention on Twitter, there's some interesting characters that are dropping some, some interesting takes out there. That's all I have to say about it. But all I'm saying is pay attention to open source, pay attention to cloud native, and read between the lines because there's something else going on and it's not the whole people are locking down their licenses and we're seeing the change in the way licenses are structured for the sake of business. That's not the big problem. There's something else.ADRIANA: Right, right. Yeah. Thanks for that. And all this to say, too, that anyone who didn't think that tech conversations were still happening on Twitter, they very much are. Yeah, well, awesome. I think we're coming up on time, so thank you so much, Marino, for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media.ADRIANA: Until next time...MARINO: Until next time. Peace out and geek out, y'all.ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:Doug Ramirez is a Principal Architect at Uplight, where he aligns his passion for software and the planet.Find our guest on:LinkedInFind us on:All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingoutAll of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillelaShow Links:Claudius Crozet (engineer)SPARCstationpine (email client)PDP-11SmallTalkThe Y2K ProblemVisualBasic (classic)Delphi (software)RTFMBASIC (programming language)Assembly Language (assembler)Code: The Inner Language of Computer Hardware and Software, by Charles PetzoldTeam TopologiesCervical collar (c collar)Sagar splintTranscript:ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela. Coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Doug Ramirez. Is welcome, Doug.DOUG: Hi. It's nice to see you again.ADRIANA: Nice to see you, too. Where are you calling in from today, Doug?DOUG: I'm in central Virginia. I live in a small town called Crozet. It's a French word. It was named after a guy who was an engineer and built or architected a tunnel through the Blue Ridge Mountains, which is right in my backyard here.ADRIANA: Oh, cool.DOUG: Yeah, small town, pretty cool. Come visit.ADRIANA: Awesome. And I'm excited because we're in the same time zone. A lot of folks that I interact with, even for this podcast, are like west coast. I've had a few in Europe, but, yeah.DOUG: So it's like, yeah, I'm constantly doing more and more these days just doing time zone math because there's...ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, right?DOUG: ...the proliferation of telecommunications.ADRIANA: Very true. Yeah. I even know now what my time zone is in GMT.DOUG: Wow, that's impressive.ADRIANA: Yes, I finally remember it now. Okay, well, let us get started with the lightning round questions. Are you ready?DOUG: I'm ready.ADRIANA: Okay, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?DOUG: I'm a righty.ADRIANA: All right. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?DOUG: iPhone. Yeah. We're definitely an Apple family here, so right, wrong, or indifferent? We're in the iCloud.ADRIANA: I feel you. Yeah. I think my daughter has never used a Windows machine.DOUG: Oh, interesting. Yeah, my kids have. So they have Apple machines, laptops, but they also get issued machines from school that are Windows. And they're always asking me for help. I'm like, where's the start button?ADRIANA: I know, right? Yeah. I haven't touched a Windows machine in so long. At my daughter's school, they give Chromebooks for all of high school.DOUG: Oh, interesting. Yeah.ADRIANA: But my daughter refuses. She's like, no, I'll stick with my MacBook Air.DOUG: Yeah. Honestly, I don't think my kids even think about it in terms of a preference. I think that they're accustomed to phones and tablets and laptops, of being different varieties. So I think it's normalized for them.ADRIANA: Yeah. It's funny, when I was growing up, it was Windows or DOS. Linux was not a thing. You wanted Unix, go to a server room somewhere. Like, desktop Unix? Ha ha! Or like one of those Sun SPARCstations workstations that we used to have in my school, my university.DOUG: Wow.ADRIANA: Not high school, but university. We had Sun SPARCstations.DOUG: I've worked on those before. I've actually written code on those.ADRIANA: My first foray into the world of Unix was like my first year university computers class and I didn't even know there was other operating systems besides Windows. And I go into the computer lab, I'm like, what is this? Staring blankly at the screen and it was like, I think the C-shell prompt. It was like a percent sign. I'm like, what do I do with this? And they're like, "Oh, just type pine. You can see your email." I'm like, "Oh cool."DOUG: Oh my God, I forgot about pine. Wow.DOUG: My first professional experience with Unix was actually writing some code on a PDP-11 at General Electric. PDP-11 is like one of the old machines that was very popular at that time, but it was old when I was at GE and I just felt like I had reached this level of accomplishment in my computer career when I got given an account on the PDP-11 and I could log in and throw a little C at the compiler and do something fun.ADRIANA: That's awesome. And now look where we are.DOUG: I know. It's so amazing.ADRIANA: Cloud. Provisioning infrastructure through code. Like, what?DOUG: Yeah, I still actually do kind of have these moments of awe and giddiness, I guess to a certain degree when I think about how cool it is now. Like the things that we can do is just phenomenal compared to what it used to be.ADRIANA: It's mind blowing. My dad, he turned 70 this year and he learned how to program on punch cards. He's evolved along with the technology, like for funsies. Last year he decided to learn Rust and back in the day he learned SmallTalk and he was like, object-oriented programming is the bees knees. And then a few years later, after all the hype, after Java, he's like, Java and object-oriented programming is an anti-pattern. I think it's kind of interesting because I think people who are more established in their careers might not remain so technical later in their careers and he's remained, I would say, ahead of me in terms of learning programming languages in that sense. And it's kind of mind blowing to see. I kind of feel like I see the evolution of computers through him as I grew up.DOUG: You know, it's interesting to think, know, like you mentioned, OOP. And I was, I was sharing these stories with some folks that I work with recently and this idea of Gen AI and what's going to happen and I tend to lean back into my experiences which have always been pretty positive when it's been as a professional developer, through Y2K. Like, I remember how scary that was. They're different things, right? Gen AI and that. But just this idea of object-oriented programming was a thing that came about and it really did kind of catapult people's ability to deliver software solutions faster. And I remember when component based, VisualBasic and Delphi, some of these other tools that came out, right. It was this idea of like, well, developers are not going to have a job anymore because you just pull these things off of a palette and drop them onto a canvas and the software builds itself and even things like rational rows, you just draw circles and lines and this thing will generate all this code for you, you don't need. I think Gen AI is different, right? I think it is a different thing.But I do think that at the end of the day, what I think is going to happen, and what I hope is going to happen is that it just is going to give us the ability to invite more people into this craft and develop solutions faster. I don't see it replacing developers. I think it might create the opportunity for more people to learn how to express sets of instructions through a language that a computer understands, right?ADRIANA: Yeah, definitely. I see it very much as an aid, right? Let it take care of the stuff that isn't as interesting and let's focus on the things that are more interesting. It kind of relieves a little bit of that mental burden. But I think it also makes me think back to a conversation that I had with somebody earlier in the podcast where it was almost like a caution because I think they were saying that it's very important to have that base knowledge as well, right? So that you don't take it for granted, right? Rather than don't rely on AI as a crutch. Still have those first principles, fundamentals, and then it can really give you those powers because I think that's the risk that we can potentially run, especially like kids who are growing up in an AI-powered world where they might not have that incentive to learn the fundamentals as a result.DOUG: Yeah, I think that is one of the main challenges that we face, right? Just being responsible with it. Yeah, we'll see.ADRIANA: Yeah, indeed. Okay, next question on our list. What is your favorite programming language?DOUG: I would say my favorite programming language right now is definitely Python. I've been doing this for a long time. I started writing software when I was a little kid, as a matter of fact, in the late '70s, and I was just a very unique opportunity or place to be where I had two parents who were educators and we had access to computers before most people didn't. Although the computers were large, like mainframes that were on the grounds of the University of Virginia where my dad worked. And so I really have written in so many different languages. I think it's like 30 different languages I've written code in. And I've gone through these periods of my career when I've thought about software in the language that I was writing in. Like, I can think back to when I was at General Electric.I used to think about software in C, and also I would dream, and sometimes I still do dream about software and trying to express something in a language. Anyway, so it was C for a while, it was C++ for a while, Java, C#, some smattering of languages in between. But I definitely now am at the point where Python is my go-to. So if I ever want to do anything outside of work, let's say if I just want to write a script or, I don't know, just have, like, I'm usually pulling repos from GitHub that are written in Python, and that's kind of the language that I prefer. I'm still able to read code in a lot of other languages, but I think that I'm at the point now where the half life on, let's say, my C++ experience is such that I would probably have to RTFM and take my time and ask copilot for some help.ADRIANA: I feel you. I did Java programming for a really long time, and I found that if I was ever away from it for a stretch, even if it was like a couple of months, it was always one of those cases of like, oh my God, I don't remember how to set up my JVM or whatever. How do I do this again? How do I find the length of a string or whatever the hell? Like how do FOR loops work again?DOUG: Yeah, I know, that's funny.ADRIANA: I was going to ask, you said you started working with computers at a really young age. What was your first programming language?DOUG: I would say BASIC. BASIC for sure. Yes, I taught myself basic when I was a kid. My dad had some books around, and back then, I guess the body of knowledge was just so small. The books were very prescriptive. It showed you everything you needed to do. And they were dry. They weren't really about programming. It's just like, let's build.ADRIANA: This is how you do this.DOUG: Ten pages of all the things you have to do.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: And I learned a little bit of assembler. I taught myself a little bit of assembler when I was in middle school just because, I don't know, I think my dad told me that assembler was, like, the language you really need to use if you want to do something with the hardware of the computer.ADRIANA: Right.DOUG: And so I just remember getting to the point where I could have a small bit of assembly code that would turn the screen blue or red. And I just thought that that was the coolest thing ever. And I was a little kid when I was doing that.ADRIANA: That is so cool. I think everyone who's learning how to code should learn assembler because it gives you an appreciation for memory allocation.DOUG: Yeah. And I think for me, it gave me an appreciation for garbage collectors when they first came out.ADRIANA: Yes, that's the other thing.DOUG: I was definitely one of those people where it's like, there's no way I'm letting something else decide when memories being reclaimed. Like, I'm not letting it do that. And then after a while, I remember thinking that this is actually kind of cool. I don't have to worry about allocating and deallocating memory anymore. Again, it goes back to this idea that, like, you know, I'm. I'm lucky that I have been able to be...been around and seen...ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.DOUG: ...these...these incremental steps and, you know, the evolution of software and, like, garbage collection was one of them. Like, man, now I can spend. You know, I can. I can get that 33% of my time back. For some people, it might have been 50%, some people might have been 20%, but still, it's like, I don't have to do that thing anymore, and I can still focus on my craft and I can still solve the problems. This is a win for everybody.ADRIANA: Yeah. In some ways, it kind of even ties to the paradigm shift of, say, the DevOps movement or automation in general, right? We're talking about people are so afraid, oh, this is going to take my job. And it's like, no, you get to focus on the cool shit now. This is where it's at. And it's the same sort of idea, but you still understand fundamentally how it works, which is really important. I remember I learned C in university, and then it wasn't until I learned assembler for a course in my fourth year where I'm like, oh, I get it. I wish I learned assembler before I learned C, because I think I would have had a much better appreciation for all the things. And I think that's the type of thing that I feel like that's the kind of knowledge that we still need to impart on folks in school.DOUG: Yeah, you know, it reminds and on and off for the last few years I've been trying to finish this book called Code by Charles Petzold, I want to say. It explains the history of...it basically says, okay, today we have computers that do this, right? Yeah, let's go back into time and he walks you through the evolution of languages and numbers and basic math, and eventually you get to the point where you start to understand how computers really work.ADRIANA: Right.DOUG: Like this idea of gates and relays and switches. Computers are physical, but the idea that you can build like a very rudimentary thing that would show you how to make a decision and you could walk up to it and touch it. I don't know if everybody needs to know that level of detail, but I do appreciate it when I'm talking to other engineers and they can have that mental model. In a cosmic way it lets you kind of bond.ADRIANA: Totally. I love it. Okay, next question in our series is do you prefer dev or ops?DOUG: Do I prefer dev or ops? I would say dev for sure, although I have lots of opinions about ops.ADRIANA: Feel free to share.DOUG: It's interesting. I don't know what everybody's experience is like, but I feel like when the ops movement came around DevOps, I think some organizations got it right and the ones that did really achieved massive benefit from.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, totally.DOUG: But in my experience, I feel like leaning back again in my history, like the idea of a DBA is there. The DBA is ostensibly there to help you go faster, right? It's kind of like, what is it in team topologies when you have the group of people that are kind of the experts and, man, I can see the book on my shelf. Anyway, they're like the consultants, they're the experts there. They're just going to make you go faster. But what inevitably happened is the DBA just became a bottleneck, right?And I'm kind of aging myself out here because I think the idea of DBA is going away. That's probably for another conversation. But in any event, I feel like that's kind of happened with Ops and DevOps, where this idea of like, we're here to provide platforms and tooling and we're going to abstract all this stuff away from you so that you, a developer, you can go flat out. You're in your flow state and you're just shipping code. But I think more often than not what happens is that the DevOps and Ops organizations often become a bottleneck.ADRIANA: Yeah. Which is ironic because they were meant to take away that bottleneck.DOUG: Exactly. Yeah. I feel for the folks that work in these arenas because as I see more and more companies moving to the cloud and more and more companies being in multiple clouds, their jobs have gotten really complicated. And the cloud providers do provide a lot of stuff out of the box. But if you look at most DevOps people and the skills that they have to use on any given day, particularly for multi cloud organizations, it's a long list of things that they have to know and the context switching between this tool at this cloud provider, this tool at this cloud provider. I can appreciate how that can. It's a lot of toil.ADRIANA: Yeah. It's like a bigger operational burden on the operators, basically, whereas the devs are still sitting pretty doing their thing. I was actually having a discussion earlier with someone where I was saying how for me, I find it funny that I started in a development background and then for me, I made it my business to learn how to package containerized applications and deploy them and know how to deploy cloud infrastructure, IAC, all that stuff. But for me, it was a bit of mind boggling to realize that that is not a thing that most developers concern themselves with, kind of by design. And I thought that was kind of funny because I'm like, I don't know, I like this stuff. I want to know how everything works end to end. Yeah.DOUG: You know, it's, you know, for both the, for both the Ops, DevOps orgs and the developer orgs, like the one thing that I am becoming more and more convinced about is just this idea of standards. You and I were talking earlier and I mentioned the fact that I'm on the national ski patrol. I think there's some really amazing things that the ski patrol has kind of figured out about how they train and trained patrollers and how patrollers operate and deal with emergencies. And I think about this a lot when I think about DevOps and developers and kind of the struggle that often exists. The thing that the ski patrol does really well is it has some very highly prescribed tools and processes, like the types of splints that we use and how you apply. The sprint is very prescribed to the point that, and I've actually done this before, I was not patrolling, but I came upon a car accident and somebody else who was an EMT was there and we were able to essentially stabilize this person and get them to be handed off to an ambulance.ADRIANA: Yes.DOUG: And what was interesting is that at the end of dealing with the acute emergency. When the ambulance left this guy, we kind of shook each other's hands like, man, I'm so glad we're both here.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: And we were kind of laughing because as we were moving the patient around and putting them on the backboard and applying a C collar for neck mobilization, we never said a word to each other. We had been trained on the tool.ADRIANA: Right.DOUG: Like the backboard, the spider straps, and the C collar. And we knew the process like we knew which straps to apply first.ADRIANA: Right, right. And you didn't know each other.DOUG: Never knew each other. Never. Nothing. And so what I've been preaching a lot at where I am right now is I've been thinking about this stuff with the national ski patrol, and to me, that's a beautiful example of why standards and conventions really do help everybody, right? If we were to say, for any low latency OLTP concerns, we are going to use Postgres. If you think about the ripple effects that that has on reduction of cognitive load, it becomes really quite interesting. Think about disaster recovery, right? Your database choice informs your ability to recover quickly in the event of a disaster in a significant way. Right?ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: The reason why I came upon that accident and jumped out of my car and was able to help that person, not to say that we saved their lives, but we probably made them more comfortable and got them to the next level of care. We were able to do that so efficiently. There was no cognitive load like this person and I were focusing on solving the problem of this person who had been in a bad accident.ADRIANA: Right.DOUG: And when I think about, to me, it's like, okay, that's interesting. It's a really interesting organizational problem. Why was that beneficial? Oh, the standard tool and the standard process removed all cognitive load. What if we did that at work? What if we said, hey, you know what? Let's just...I mean, we can argue about SQL Server, Oracle, we can argue about it, but if we pick a tool, then the unintended but kind of intended consequences become material. Like, all of a sudden we have one backup tooling. We have one recovery tooling. If I get paged in the middle of the night and it's because my coworker's out and I have to jump into a sev one, I know how to backup restore postgres. Right. Like, if it were Cassandra or something else, it'd be like, I have no idea. Anyway, I'm obviously pretty passionate about this.ADRIANA: I love this so much. I have so many follow ups to this. Yeah. Because it reminds me because at the previous... and we know each other from a previous organization where we worked together, and I do recall that at this previous organization, it was more of a, like, you work with the technologies that you're most comfortable with, sort of approach to things, which I think can be very interesting and effective until it stops being effective. I think especially if you're starting to grow the organization to a significant size. I definitely learned both there and at a previous organization that being able to standardize and to standardize by codifying things really went a long way, because to a certain extent, we got to save people from themselves.DOUG: The codifying things...here's another great example. In the ski patrol, it is interesting, this idea, just to kind of zoom out a little bit, this idea of the developer experience and developer creativity. We want small autonomous teams because our hypothesis is that collectively they will deliver more value. So we talk about things like full service ownership. You build it, you run it. These are wonderful ideas. But at the end of the day, the software organization isn't there to satisfy all their curiosity.Most places they're there because they have a mission, a purpose, a goal, and oftentimes it is to make money. So one of the things that, another thing we do on the ski patrol, which I love this idea, and this kind of goes back to this idea of like, standards creating an environment where you still have autonomy and creativity to solve problems. We all know that there's a lot of creativity in software engineering, even though at the end of the day, it's just a set of instructions. I think there's a way to allow for both. But I think that it's important for software developers and DevOps people, all of us, right, to understand that the things that we might be locally optimizing for are not part of the global optimization, right? Like my desire to introduce Rust into a service because I think it is better, and it could possibly be better for that service. It's not in service of the larger goals. So on the ski patrol, if I'm on scene with somebody who's been badly injured and they have to be taken down the mountain, they're not able to ski or snowboard anymore. We put them in a sled, a toboggan.Whenever a toboggan arrives with another patroller, there's something called a sled pack. And the sled pack has the tools that you need to probably address the person that's injured who has to be put into a toboggan and sent away. So we have some blankets, some splints, some devices to move people around, things like that. Every time the toboggan arrives, when I open up the sled pack, everything is there and it's always in the right order. And, you know, it's to me it's like, it's another fabulous...I'm sure that if I went to any other mountain in the US, and if I was a bystander and somebody said, hey, can you help? I'd be like, yep, I'm a member of the SB, blah, blah, blah. The toboggan arrives and I go to open up the sled pack, I guarantee you it'll be all those things in order.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: And when I was getting trained...sorry, that was my cat.ADRIANA: That's all right!DOUG: When I was getting trained on the ski patrol, it never thought to offer a different solution or to suggest something different or to sneak in a different thing. Because I think part of the training is like, the whole idea here is to remove the cognitive load so that when you're in a crisis, you can focus on solving the problem, which is making sure the person can breathe, they're not bleeding to death, and that anything is not straight. Gets straightened. For me, when I think about this at work, it's things like, all right, if I'm going to go look at a microservice, and we've all agreed that we're going to use Python and FastAPI or Goengen, right? Every repo I go to, I want it to be the sled pack experience. I want to clone the repo, and I want to open up the top level folder, and I want to see all the elements that are there, right. And they should be immediately recognizable. And it's interesting, if you talk about these ideas with some developers, they're kind of like, well, that seems overly prescriptive. Why would you want to do that? That might not always work. Valid arguments, but I'm always like, well, what's the benefit of having it different every time? And I go back to this idea also of that code is read, I think, like 100 times more than it's written. Like, the time human beings spend with code, it's mostly reading it.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: So why not make it easier for the next person? Like, agree on a standard. We'll use Postgres, agree on a convention. These are folder structures for our microservices. To me, that creates that sled pack experience. Like, I'm on scene, this person's really hurt. I've got to get them to a next level of care immediately. I don't want to think about opening up the sled pack and being like, where's the litter? I don't see...why isn't the splint here? Because, you know, Doug decided that there was a better way.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: And he liked that idea. Having said all this, though, the one thing I will say is that going back to some of my other stories is I'm old school. My first job at a school, there was never a conversation about languages or naming conventions. It was all written down. It's General Electric. They're very thorough company. Anyway. So I tend to find some comfort in thinking about things like, we have a language, we have a storage technology. We've got this mechanism for asynchronous communication. Just use it.ADRIANA: Yeah. It's interesting because this is basically like a platform engineering problem when you look at it, right? Because you are looking to standardize across the board, not just the development experience, but the overall standardization of your infrastructure and all that. It's very cool. I think it's so great to have to be able to standardize on that, but also give some wiggle room for creativity. But not so much that you end up sort of ruining the flow, because I think that's really the thing. But I think then what helps make it effective, and I'm sure, especially when you're doing ski patrol, you have a guide, right? You have this documented somewhere how these things work. And I think that's where a lot of companies kind of miss the mark, is because these procedures, these standards, aren't necessarily documented or well documented.DOUG: Yes. So here's the other thing that, another thing that I really appreciate about the ski patrol, national ski patrol, and something I really do want to bring into where I work. So getting certified to be a ski patroller involves typically two things. One is about six or nine months of classroom training where you effectively become an EMT. But it's called an OEC. It's outdoor emergency care. So you're trained on outdoor emergencies. So it's kind of the basics, right? Like, I think of it like computer science, computer information systems, whatever.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: So you finish that up, you're like, okay, I've got a whole bunch of academic knowledge. Then each mountain will do what they call on the hill. So there's another couple of months of training where you are now taking kind of your academic experience and actually applying it. For us, it would be a cold weather environment, so we have classrooms on the slopes, and we practice things out in the cold, in the snow. And so the on the hill training is really important. And once you finish the on the hill training, you are very proficient. It's not like you're a noob. As a matter of fact, most people who come off of their, when they just get their certification of patrol, you almost want to go to those people because they remember things that you don't. Or I did.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: Anyway, so to me, this idea of on the hill seems really important. And I almost envision, I don't know, every six months or maybe every quarter, we take our new developers, our new engineers across all the departments, and we basically run them through on the hill. So, like, this is our software development lifecycle, right? This is our documentation. We're going to give you some sample code, like some scenarios to run. Join us for a sev 1. So that basically after, I don't know, some number of weeks, let's say those people are very familiar with how that organization works. How does it ship code?ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: Right? So a very focused, very well thought out, thorough training program. It's on the hill training. Like you've taken your academic experiences or whatever you had before, and we're going to show you how we do them here at our mountain with our specific protocols. And then when you're done with this, the entire patrol knows that you're ready and you can go and you can work accidents and you will be trusted and you will be successful.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: So the other thing that's related to this, too, is that another thing that I really appreciate about the NSP is that we have refreshers. So every year. So every year we get refreshed and we get retrained and retested and recertified on essentially a third of all the things you have to know as a ski patroller. So we go through cycles a, b, and c every three years. But the great thing about it is that, and this is something else I would want to do. So I would run a run cohorts of engineers through a refresher just to say to people like, okay, we know you know it, but let's to be like, let's go back through and talk about our SDLC. Let's have some people join some, like, let's understand what it's really like to work here and just recertify everybody on the process, to give people an opportunity to know that they can participate in the process so that we know that we're doing a good job and training people and making them be successful. So I really like this idea of this refresher that happens every year in the ski patrol, where you go and you spend some time rtfming.Like, we all big medical manual that we read. We go and we meet people. It's usually in the fall, but we'll go to the resort and we'll do some dry runs of a lift evacuation. So we'll load people up on the lift and we'll evacuate them. So it's almost like, hey, let's pretend to have a sev 1 or a tabletop sev 1. That would be part of the refresher, like, so and so database clusters down. What are you going to do, right. And give people some time to kind of step back and lean back into whatever the company is doing and how it works so that people aren't under duress, if that makes sense.ADRIANA: Yeah, and it makes a lot of sense because in many organizations, especially, like the really large ones, you already do things like DR testing, which in my experience, it's a very important thing to do. But I will say that we did it twice a year, I think, at one of the organizations where I was at, and everyone's sort of, like, rolling their eyes, like, oh, why do I have to do this thing? Why am I the one who's pulled into helping out with the DR test? So I think finding a way to it almost like, in some ways felt like we were going through the motions, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of the whole thing. But then there's the other side of it, too. Oftentimes when new engineers are onboarded onto a company or even onto a different team, unfortunately, they're kind of just thrust in, right? It's like, oh, here, read some stuff, and then we expect you to be productive in a week.Good luck to you. And that's the type of culture that we need to aim to change, because it can be very frustrating if you're new to an organization and especially, oh, my God, imagine you're fresh out of school. If you've done this enough times in your career, like, whatever. I guess that's just the way to the poor kid fresh out of school, they're like, what's going on?DOUG: Yeah. It's curious to me because you'd think that the company, the business, the organization would intuit the value of knowing how to recover during a disaster. In my experience, I want to say there's only a handful of places that I think really understood that and made the investment and the training and the technology to be ready.ADRIANA: Yeah. More than just going through the motions. More than just like, this was a compliance thing where we need to tick off this item, right? Yeah. I think the companies that care about doing chaos engineering tests and game days and that sort of thing. I think those are the organizations where you're probably going to see success in terms of low panic factor, perhaps during incident responses, right?DOUG: Well, kind of going back to one of our threads from earlier, this idea of ski patrol, we use one splint to deal with femur fractures, a sega splint, there's other splints, but that's what we use. Going back to this idea of choose a database for all of your low latency OLTP concerns, maybe even HTAP concerns, hybrid transactional analytical processing concerns. But in any event, pick a database. Not only does it have this interesting effect on reducing cognitive load, but when you start to think about the idea of chaos engineering, if you're in an environment where you're storing data in, I don't know, Kafka, Cassandra, mongo, some relational database, another relational database. Right. Like chaos engineering starts to become incredibly daunting, almost impractical or impossible. Not impossible, but like, impractical. Again, when I think about the ski patrol, it's like there's lots of different splints. Everyone knows this one, and we are all trained on it.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: And you can put it on and off blindfolded because it's in service of a larger goal, which is to help people and hopefully save their lives.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: If you think about this idea of really trying to be keeping your technology stack simple and having standards and really adhere to them, the unintended consequences of that start to bleed into all these other concerns. Retention, recruiting, hiring.ADRIANA: So true.DOUG: I love this idea of where I am at uplight right now. We have a lot of python experience. We have a lot of fast API experience. It would be easy for me to turn to another team and say, can you help for like two weeks, one sprint? And most of the people around me would be like, yes, I can do it. They know the language, they know the process, they know the framework. And I wish more organizations saw that benefit, and I wish more businesses would lean into and kind of lean into engineering to say, we're running a business, we have a mission. We understand that you have this creative thing that you do. We don't know what it is, but you build stuff for us, keep it simple.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: Because we have these larger goals that we need to meet. And part of it is hiring people, recruiting people, having agility within our software teams. We want to have small autonomous teams that come together, build a solution, and then they dissolve, like, over and over and over again. And the way to do that is by having those standards, picking good tools, using them until they can't serve you anymore, which for the most part is never the case. To me that is a real interesting recipe, like taking those concepts from the ski patrol. I just want to inject them into software organizations.ADRIANA: Yeah, it makes so much sense to me because then when you strip everything down, you're left with, I get to solve cool problem. And the other thing too is you can apply that to another aspect that kind of is like the bane of every developer's existence, which is like compliance and security, right? Having that standardization, working together with our friends in security, which doesn't always happen, but if you have the standardization in place, codifying the standardization, then again you're taking away the mystery and make it easy to implement the security policies is the other thing.DOUG: Yeah, again, being the older programmer in the room, and admittedly a bit of a curmudgeon to me, just the simple technology stacks always win. Yeah, and they win because they help the people in process, people process and technology, the simple technology stacks make those other things come into focus and be successful. I see it over and over and over in my career. The simple solutions, the simple technology solutions always win.ADRIANA: And it's funny too, because as developers we are drawn to shiny new objects and sometimes shiny things can be overly complicated. It even reminds me one time at a previous job, I was on a release engineering team and we were using Azure for our cloud and we were looking at possibly moving to Kubernetes, but we were using before Azure container services to manage all our microservices. And quite frankly it was doing a very good job. And yet they were looking at moving to Kubernetes because, well, Kubernetes come on, of course. But it was funny because in the end they made the decision of like, yeah, this thing's too complicated. Azure container services is doing the job. Shit's not breaking. We are happy. So why are we overly complicating the situation, right? Which I think was a very, for me in Kubernetes I was sad, but when you look at it very objectively, it made a lot of sense.DOUG: Yeah, it's funny when I hear these stories about people using some very sophisticated, complicated things like Kubernetes and struggle with it. And I'm like, I have to remind myself, like, okay, we've shipped code before, right? Without all this stuff. I'm pretty sure I remember shipping code to a computer. So there's a way. But I feel like we've strayed from the path. Like how do we get back onto the path of, like, let's ship hello, world?ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: And keep it simple.ADRIANA: Yeah. And I think that is the key, right? Keeping it simple because we like to overcomplicate for the sake of, because we want to solve a cool problem. I think at the end of the day, we're engineers. We want to solve really cool problems. So let's find a complex way to do it. And then you see the simple solution. You're like, oh, yeah, I guess.DOUG: I think that's an interesting way that you've described that we have to go against our own nature. Most of us got into this because we're geeks. We're nerding out, and we're learning new stuff, right? All the time.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: But it's almost like now you have to step into this work environment and say, I'm going to have to deny my true nature.ADRIANA: Yeah.DOUG: And I'm just going to, to a certain degree, not assume that everything's a nail and you have a hammer, but you almost want to say, like, okay, I've got four tools in this little toolbox. I've got to keep it simple. I need to focus on the larger goal here. What is our goal? We need software to solve this problem. Great. I've got these tools. I'll keep it simple. But for so many of us, it's like, but that's not why I'm here.DOUG: I got here because of my ability to pick up new things and be curious and dig and learn.ADRIANA: Yeah. And so you're like creating a new challenge for yourself so that you can kind of keep the brain active.DOUG: Yeah.ADRIANA: It actually reminds me.DOUG: Sorry, have you heard that before, developer catnip?ADRIANA: No, I have not.DOUG: I heard that from somebody I work with about a year ago. I hadn't heard it before, but I thought it was just a great expression, this idea of developer catnip. Like we see something and we smell something and then we're all into it. It's like, no, go back over here.ADRIANA: So true. It actually reminds me of something I experienced fairly early in my career where we were writing code to convert some stuff and pop it into an oracle database. And the vendor we were using, they had a Java API for it. And I was super excited. Like, Java was still new. This is like early 2000s. I'm like, oh, this is awesome. Great problem to solve. And then we're running some performance tests and the Java code was slow as fuck. It was ridiculous. But they also had like a PL/SQL API. And so we started doing some tests running the same kind of code in PL/SQL and it runs in the database. Of course it's going to be faster, like Java, extra overhead bloat. And I remember being so sad. I was like, I have to learn this crappy language. I'm going to be like, I'm not going to have. But objectively thinking back, it had to be that solution. Otherwise the PL/SQL code was so much more performant than the Java code. And I had to put my pride aside and suck it up because that was the better solution. It was the more logical solution.DOUG: Wow. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm sitting here thinking like there's definitely cohorts of developers who have had a schema handed to them in an ORM and might not have ever really written SQL.ADRIANA: Yeah, I feel like SQL was like my life for the first chunk of my career.DOUG: Yeah, definitely.ADRIANA: I don't know if I can write the complex SQL that I used to back in the day, but it was fun while it lasted. Yeah, cool. Well, we are coming up on time, but before we go, I was wondering if you have any final parting words that you would like to share with our audience.DOUG: I would be curious to hear from other people if they have experience where they've either as a hobby or a volunteer or a second job. I would love to hear other people how they could take something that they're doing. The national ski patrol and software engineering. What in the world do they have in common? And I think the answer is quite a bit. And I think that the software engineering world could learn a lot from the ski patrol. So I guess my parting thought would be very curious to hear from other people. Like, do you have a former job or some experience where it just seems orthogonal to what we do, but actually could help.ADRIANA: Yeah, so true. And I've talked to a bunch of people about that. Like even someone, they were in incident response. They used to be in the service industry, like work at restaurants. And she was telling me how she had to learn to manage customers and stuff, deal with them and have unpleasant conversations and how so many parallels between that and what she did in incident response. And I'm like, after we finished recording the podcast, I'm like, you have to write a blog post about this. Which she did. But yeah, it's great that let's draw more on our real life experiences and find parallels in the software world because it's so relevant.DOUG: Yeah, for sure. I think if we can be humble and not just assume that because we're the nerds that we know the answer.ADRIANA: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. This was really great. I'm so glad that you brought this topic up because I think it's so relevant. It's very eye opening and kind of sobering in a way. Let's take a step back and evaluate. What are we doing here?DOUG: Yeah, I think that's the beginning of the adventure.ADRIANA: That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Doug, for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check out the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...DOUG: Peace out and geek out.ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:Ash Patel is an independent advocate for better software reliability practices. He's been a seasoned manager for over a decade and takes an organizational design and team development view on improving technology outcomes.Find our guest on:LinkedInSREPath PodcastFind us on:All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingoutAll of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillelaShow Links:CapybaraCapybaras at Toronto's High Park ZooIntel Core i7 processorWindows PowershellWindows Subsystem for LinuxJavaScript ES6Window frames propertyPriority codes (P0, P1, etc.)Environmental, social, corporate governance (ESG)Profits & Losses (P&L)The Odin ProjectAdditional Links:Adriana on SREPath PodcastTranscript:ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out. The podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. Geeking out with me today is Ash Patel. Well, welcome, Ash.ASH: Hey, how's it going, Adriana?ADRIANA: Not too bad. Where are you calling from today?ASH: I am actually in Australia right now because I wanted to escape the Toronto winter early. I feel like I've done it right in time.ADRIANA: Yeah, I think so. I think you caught it. Just like when the sun is setting way too early and the weather is just that special shade of blah.ASH: Yes. Just around Halloween times, it starts to hint at it's going to get bad. And then by mid November, we're already thinking, I need to get out of this.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I totally don't blame you. So how long are you in Australia for? The duration of winter?ASH: Pretty much. I'm looking at somewhere around March, April.ADRIANA: That's awesome. So it's like summer for you all the time then, because you're going from summer to summer.ASH: It has its downsides. I mean, it gets really hot in Australia, but it's a lot easier to deal with than -15 degrees or worse. Right?ADRIANA: I agree. I come from a tropical country, and I have been living in Canada for 35 years, and I still cannot get acclimated to the freaking cold.ASH: Oh, yeah, about that. I noticed that your mascot for the pod is a capybara.ADRIANA: Yes, that's right. Which, incidentally, I discovered capybaras as a result of Instagram. It wasn't even because of, like, because I'm from Brazil originally. It wasn't even because, oh, I grew up with them and they're so cute and cuddly. No, it's like Instagram started showing me videos of these. I'm like, oh, my God, where have you been all my life? And so I got slightly obsessed. And in High Park in Toronto, there's like a zoo and there are capybaras and went to see them in the summer, and they are just like...they're glorious animals.ASH: They look amazing.ADRIANA: Yeah, I would love to have one as a pet.ASH: Not sure if you can do that legally.ADRIANA: Yeah, I don't think so. That is a dream that will remain unfulfilled. All right, well, before we get started with the meaty bits, I am going to subject you to some lightning round questions.ASH: Sounds good.ADRIANA: All right, let's get started. Okay, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?ASH: Ambidextrous.ADRIANA: Ooh, that is very cool.ASH: But probably ambidextrous. Yeah, but best if I don't write with my left hand. It's shocking, but it's doable.ADRIANA: Nice. That's very cool. Okay, next question. IPhone or Android?ASH: I wasn't an OG iPhone guy for the first two releases, so I'm talking way back, like 2008 to 2010, somewhere around that time, and then Android right up until earlier last year. So for a good twelve years, Android only, and now iPhone only.ADRIANA: Oh, wow. That's quite the switch. Very cool. What made you switch back from Android to iPhone?ASH: I think I just saw a whole bunch of people playing around with their iPhones, and I'm like, I want that. It's slick. The UI/UX, and I'm one of those UI/UX nerds. It just really struck me. I was like, oh, I need that. I need that in my life.ADRIANA: That is very cool. Yeah. I have to say I'm dazzled by the UI/UX of the iPhone and just, like, the slickness of it. I wish that I wasn't one of those clumsy people who had, like, a naked iPhone, but I have to put a case on mine, unfortunately, and it makes me deeply sad. But, yeah, if I didn't have a case, there'd be scratches.ASH: Oh, most definitely.ADRIANA: Okay, next question. Do you prefer Mac, Linux, or Windows in your day to day life?ASH: It's actually kind of a similar story to iPhone versus Android. Windows, right up until last year, and all of a sudden, a switch to Mac. And a lot of my friends are going, dude, you used to really hate on Apple. I never did, but they assumed I did because I always would talk about Windows and, yeah, they all talked about Apple stuff, right?ADRIANA: Yeah.ASH: So there you go.ADRIANA: And now you're a convert. Yeah, I was telling someone the other day that I went years and years, Windows only. I'm like, Apple, BLECH. And we bought a Mac. It was like a Mac Mini, one of the early Mac Minis, kind of as an experiment, use it as a media server. And I'm like, what is this fresh hell? And then I decided to buy myself a MacBook Pro just for funsies. And I just bought myself this powerful Intel Core i7 machine, which was like, at the time, state of the art. And I ditched my Core i7 machine for the dinkier MacBook because I was like, this thing is just glorious.ASH: I don't know what they do, but there's some magic behind it.ADRIANA: There is. I'm also sold because of the Linux-y-ish kernel. Close enough to Linux that I feel like I can do cool shit and I don't know, I cannot get behind Powershell. I don't even want to try. I worked at a Windows shop once and they were like, Powershell this, Powershell that, and I installed Windows subsystem for Linux as like my first thing. And I'm like, I don't ever want to touch Powershell. I'm sorry, Powershell lovers.ASH: I'm going to be with you on that, Adriana. Let's just stick with the terminal that comes on Mac. It's so much easier than using Powershell.ADRIANA: Yeah. Okay, next question. What's your favorite programming language?ASH: Ooh, I just realized that my skills are very out of date, so I'm just going to stick with HTML. That's not even a programming language. HTML and CSS. No, I would say JavaScript because it's elegant. That's the only real programming language I know and my skills are really out of date and I'm learning all the stuff that's in es six. I think that's the latest in JavaScript and it's kind of hard because I've been in the management track for the last, I'm not going to mention how many years, but it's been a long time. And coming back to all this stuff, I'm like, oh my goodness, I really have fallen behind.ADRIANA: Yeah, it changes, right?ASH: So let's just say when I was playing around with JavaScript, it was this new fangled thing that you could do animations with when you had HTML with frames. So kind of gives you. I bet people don't even know what frames are nowadays.ADRIANA: I still remember frames. You were in good company. Yeah, that's probably around the time I looked at JavaScript. I'm like, not for me. Bye bye.ASH: It was pretty messy, but fun.ADRIANA: I admire the fact that so many beautiful UI things come out of JavaScript, but I am not one of those people who can make those things happen, and I have made my peace with that.ASH: I am trying to make my piece with it, but I just keep on going back and trying to learn it and try and think one day I could maybe become a front end developer of some form and create cool apps, but maybe I'll just stick around with infrastructure and deep dive into that. Maybe we should. Maybe I should do that. Yeah.ADRIANA: I'm a little biased, but I do like the infrastructure.ASH: Yeah, we're both just a little bit biased.ADRIANA: Just a tad. Right. Okay, next question. Do you prefer dev or ops?ASH: Ops. This is a tricky question. I feel like I'm going to fail if I say...ADRIANA: There are no wrong answers here.ASH: I like DevOps. That's the right answer, isn't it?ADRIANA: You know what? A lot of people have given the DevOps answer, so, like I said, no wrong answers. Okay, next question. Controversial one. JSON or YAML?ASH: Oh, jeez. JSON. Cool. Yeah, let's leave it at that.ADRIANA: Okay. And on a similarly controversial vein, and you can blame one of my recent guests for bringing this up. Spaces or tabs?ASH: Um, that's going to be a huge um that you got to clear out, but that's all right. Spaces. Is this a trick question?ADRIANA: Again, no wrong answers, just personal preference.ASH: No, actually, I like tabs. I like tabs. I should say tabs.ADRIANA: I think that's the worst of it. Two more questions. They're not as controversial. Do you prefer to consume content through text or video?ASH: It depends on my mood on the day, but lately it's been a lot of video.ADRIANA: All right, cool. And then final question. What is your superpower?ASH: What is my superpower?ADRIANA: Yeah.ASH: As of late, it's being infinitely patient. People just get mind blown by how patient I am with things. They get frustrated. I'm like, it's cool. Just hang around. We'll wait for 3 hours for the DMV guy to sort things out for us.ADRIANA: I really like that. I wish I had patience like that. I get impatient waiting in line. If it's like three people deep, I'm like, come on, move. So, yeah, hats off to you for your patience. I think we all need a little more patience and a little more zenness. I think especially as we get older, I think we realize, why are we getting so worked up over this crap?ASH: Funnily enough, from what I've heard, the older we get, the less patient we become.ADRIANA: Oh, no. It means it's going to get worse for me.ASH: If you consciously practice meditating and being present and all these kinds of things.ADRIANA: I have tried. I've tried the mindfulness thing, and my mind always wanders. I don't know how people manage. Hats off to people who can do that. I feel like I start thinking about all the things that I need to do while I'm doing this mindfulness exercise, and then I'm like, shit, I got to get out my phone and write this down.ASH: I'm going to just go a little bit off tangent for a second. And I have a tip for that. I am one of those people as well. If you got me to sit still and try and meditate or just be mindful, et cetera, et cetera. I cannot do it. But then I found if I just did beginners yoga for a while, it's a lot easier to get into that meditative state. So that's my...ADRIANA: That is true.ASH: ...pro/amateur, very much amateur tip, actually, for people.ADRIANA: That is a really good tip, because yoga is the one time where I can chill more because I'm so caught up trying to stay, trying to do the poses and trying to do the breathing. And I always do the opposite of what they say. When they say breathe out, I have the urge to breathe in and vice versa. It keeps my mind occupied, though.ASH: Kind of guilty of doing the same thing. So you're in good company or bad company? I'm still not sure.ADRIANA: Although I am told that yoga is like a very personal practice, and how you do it is how you do it. So maybe we're doing all right.ASH: Yeah, I'm completely with you on that.ADRIANA: Awesome. All right, well, now that we've done our meditative, contemplative, philosophical segment, let's get into the meaty bits. So we were chatting earlier about just being in the corporate world, because that's something that you and I both have in common. Careers, long careers in the corporate world. So why don't you share actually, how you got your start in the corporate world and how it's been?ASH: So I started off as a system admin way back. So remember, we're talking about HTML with frames. Kind of gives you a reference point as to when we're talking about that. And then it just was a transition into...I did a degree in research science. It was a research science oriented degree. So the company I was working at was handling the computer systems for said, hey, do this degree, we'll get you a management job, and then sky's the limit. So I thought, okay, let's try this out. And I did it.And they were right. Got on the management track, started off managing one place, then a few sites, and then became director of operations. So I finished up last year as a director of operations, responsible for people, finance, property and technology. That's kind of a useful thing to know. Technology was important because it was increasingly become a part of a healthcare environment, which is where I was based. And it was difficult, and that's where I got into thinking about reliability and essentially operational stuff after a long time and just really just dug into that. But that's why it's the thing for me now, because I think that was the most interesting part of my work. For me.ADRIANA: Like, dealing with the reliability of the systems.ASH: Dealing with pretty much any of the software operation side of things. And reliability was a problem for us. Software reliability was a problem. So I made it a priority area, started blogging on it, and even after finishing up I just continued on it while I retrained to see if I can become a ninja JavaScript developer one day.ADRIANA: Awesome. So what would you see is the biggest leap? Is it a leap? What's the biggest difference in going from a manager to a director in terms of job responsibilities, the way you think?ASH: So that's probably the first taste of seniority in terms of you thinking you're a senior manager, which I always had people tell me, "Oh, you're the senior manager in the company." Which is right, but that also means the entire C-suite is kind of looking down on you and telling you what to do more so than ever before, which was always fun. But then you're also getting managed up. I'm sure you've heard of people trying to learning about managing up, so managing their managers. So I had a lot of people trying to do that with me, which was always fun to navigate. So you're dealing with both ends in terms of responsibilities. It's more broad. For me it was just covering a lot, covering a lot of areas that I didn't have an interest in, but it just came under my purview. Once again, technology was the most interesting part.ADRIANA: It is the fun stuff.ASH: Do you want me to deep dive a little bit more into the responsibilities?ADRIANA: Yeah, actually I want to go back to what you were saying earlier about managing up, and if you could explain that to folks in our audience who aren't necessarily familiar with the term, because I think that's kind of an interesting thing, because you're right that there's a lot of advice given to folks in management positions or even individual contributors manage up. So what does that mean?ASH: So I cannot give a textbook definition on this. I'm really going to give my perspective on how people are trying to do it with me. You can tell that people were getting advice from somewhere else, maybe someone who was telling them exactly to manage up, or they were just naturally good at it, and they would essentially try and guide decision making toward a favorable outcome for them.ADRIANA: Right.ASH: And essentially something that would position them as someone who is a valuable individual contributor, which is not a bad thing, but sometimes actually a lot of times it came at the expense of their team, which is when things go wrong in managing up. So managing up is not a bad thing necessarily, but it can eventually turn into a, "Hey, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me" kind of thing. And then trying to just steer the director or steer your boss towards what essentially only, it seems like you're the only person who can do it. I think that's not so much of a thing in tech, but people are learning managing up, and I hope they do it the right way.ADRIANA: Yeah, because I guess if it comes off, then you kind of feel like you're being used, right?ASH: Yeah, about nine times out of ten, it definitely felt like that.ADRIANA: Yeah. Because I can definitely see the benefits of managing up because sometimes your direct reports might have certain insights that you might not have, so they bring certain issues to the forefront and so you have that visibility. But then when you're being blatantly used so that they can work on their agenda, then that feels a little bit ickier, I would say.ASH: Yeah. And I guess that's one piece of advice I'd give to a manager who realizes they're being managed up on. Actually create barriers to it. Like, don't block people, but actually have systems or mental systems or mental models in place to say, hey, look, I need to rationally process whatever's coming into me because a lot of times we don't realize it. We're so busy. We've got teams to manage, we've got reviews to do, we've dealing with our bosses ourselves. We get caught up in all of this, and it's not easy to think things through. So that's one thing I'd say to people. Maybe we can go back to that whole, you got to meditate regularly or maybe just slow down and think about things.ADRIANA: Yeah, I definitely agree. For me, I tend to be, unfortunately, at times impulsive, especially when it comes to getting emails or slack messages or whatever, that tend to get me riled up. And one thing that I did learn in the last several years was to don't be tempted to respond right away. Sit back, let it soak, and then respond, and you'll do so with a much, much clearer head.ASH: I love the snooze function on Gmail. Everything that's snoozed for a week later.ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. It does you a great service rather than hinder. So I definitely appreciate those features, like realizing that not everything is something that you have to address right away. Not everything is an emergency, is very liberating.ASH: Absolutely. And I think that can seg us on to another thing that I think even individual contributors can benefit from, in that you have to manage your cognitive load, you have to be aware of it. It's something you have to consciously deal with. It's not something that's just going to happen naturally. That app that says it's going to reduce your mental burden, it's not going to do that automatically. You have to be involved in it, too.ADRIANA: Yeah, and that's a huge takeaway. Only you can help you. It sounds super cliché, but it is absolutely true. Until you take the reins and start putting in, like, guardrails in your own life, people, things, circumstances are going to take advantage of you. And then that leads to burnout.ASH: Exactly. Just like what SREs do in putting out guardrails. They set around guardrails for developers to not cause P0, P1 high severity incidents. It's very important that you create guardrails around your work as well so that you don't fall out and then you get stuck and you start creating symptoms of burnout.ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Now, one thing that I wanted to circle back on is, I think you'd mentioned, when you're talking about role as a director, you're kind of under the microscope of the C-suite. And I used to always think the higher up you got in your career, the more influence, and I guess the more freedom you had. But then I was at a position myself where, I was at a company where they were, like, grooming me to be a director. And my boss at the time, he said, the higher up you move, the more you can't just think about what you want. You have to also think about what the company wants, which is very fair. I mean, companies got to make money and all that. But then for me, that was kind of a turn off. I'm like, yeah, no, I don't think I want to pursue this. What's your point of view? What's your experience with that?ASH: For me, it was a little simpler because we were in the healthcare space, so we had boundaries. You have very strict boundaries around how far you can take it in terms of the company wants something commercially. But then that always gets compared to what is ethical, which is not a boundary, that 99% of companies, they don't have it, because they don't have this regulated boundary and even regulated industries. It's not as much of an equation involving, are we doing the right thing by our customers, necessarily. It's an important thing to consider, especially as things get more competitive. And now I'm probably going to talk about another topic that it won't make sense to a lot of your listeners. ESG is now a big thing. So environment, sustainability, governance.So governance is a big part in how a company is treated or looked at by investors, by the public in general. So you need to get that right. And if you don't, that is asking for trouble. So we always had boundaries for, yeah, the company wants this, but then we have to do the right thing by the customer or the client, the patient, et cetera.ADRIANA: Yeah. Which I guess in some ways that makes it easier. Right. Because you are bound by doing right by the patient rather than. It's not just a big old corporate interest.ASH: Yeah, exactly. In some ways it made it easier. In some ways it was difficult, but we could go on about that for a while.ADRIANA: Fair enough. Fair enough. Now, I think you mentioned when you were talking about your role as a director, you also mentioned, obviously reliability was an aspect like the technology side of things. But then there's other aspects too, right? Because you have to be concerned with budgeting and whatnot. Talk about some of these aspects, the non techie aspects of the job. And were they something that you enjoyed?ASH: Looking at balance sheets is never fun. Especially when you have to...ADRIANA: Yeah, I have to agree with you.ASH: Especially when you have to look at it with, what do they say? Fine tooth and comb. Fine toothed comb or something like that.ADRIANA: Yeah, fine tooth comb. Yeah.ASH: There were a lot of old school sayings in my space, as you can imagine. We need to look at this with a fine comb or whatever they used to say. But, yeah, it was a lot of things that would really not interest people who are just interested in being individual contributors, even people who want to be managers and just be people managers. There's a lot of other stuff that you have to do. So yeah. Dealing with P&Ls, dealing with paperwork, reading through contracts. Actually reading through contracts.ADRIANA: Right. Which is not fun on a good day.ASH: Yeah. Like the lawyer actually wants you to pay attention. They don't want you to just be there and sign at the end, generally.ADRIANA: Yeah. Which makes sense. Especially if you're responsible for the purchase of some massive system or whatever. You definitely want to make sure that it's not just a stamp of approval.ASH: Right, exactly. Oh, we had stamps, by the way, like actual physical stamps that you actually jam into an ink pad.ADRIANA: Fun.ASH: Real old school, right?ADRIANA: That is very old school. For me personally, I would find like, that is a very stressful burden to carry. How did you feel about that? Did you feel stressed and also in awe of like, "Oh, I just made this decision."ASH: The funny thing is that when you're there, when I was there, I never felt that that's not what my cognitive process was. But obviously it was there somewhere in the background because now I'm going, wow, I was really highly strung. And even friends I see, I've seen months later, after just finishing up, they're like, oh, wow, is this you? You're like relaxed. And I'm saying, wait, I wasn't relaxed before for all this time? And they're like, oh, no, you were good. You were good, like backtracking.ADRIANA: Yeah. So I guess it speaks to the intensity of that kind of role. That actually has always been a bit of a turn off for me as well, is like the intensity. Work is intense normally. And then I think when you get to higher up positions, the responsibilities are so big, Lofty.ASH: Yeah. I'd say to people, don't get attracted by an increase in salary because if that's what you're doing it for, jeez, that's all I can say about that.ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. What made you decide? Okay, I'm done with this directorship thing for a change.ASH: About three years ago, a certain global event occurred, and it made a lot of people reassess what they were doing that I had been thinking about it for a while. Is this what I want to do? Is this the path I want to take? Ongoing. And even though I've dated myself with saying HTML had frames, I still feel like I'm relatively young to make a shift into something else. And I love the tech space, which is why I'm trying to get deeper into programming. And I think the stars just aligned. It was the right time and I just did it last year.ADRIANA: Awesome. And so what are you doing now? You've mentioned that you're getting deeper into programming, so right now, are you on an exploratory phase? What's life been like since you decided, "I'm done with this?"ASH: It's been a bit of both. So I've continued on with srepath.com, which is about site reliability engineering, and had you on, and that was a very popular episode. People loved, they loved your insights about OpenTelemetry because that's a hot topic in this space. I mean, in terms of platform engineering, DevOps, SRE, everyone's talking about it right now. And other than that, studying JavaScript again a very long time after I last touched it. But it's been fun learning about all kinds of aspects of a programming language. Again, after having been so knee deep in non technical, technical stuff, I don't know how to explain that. Yeah, it's been exhilarating, actually. Yeah, it's fun to learn.ADRIANA: It's the techie in you.ASH: Yeah, exactly. And I'm so glad I got a MacBook for this because I don't think I would have enjoyed, I would not have enjoyed doing this on a Powersh-...on a Windows...no.ADRIANA: Yeah. I have to agree with you. I think it makes for a much more pleasurable development experience.ASH: 100%.ADRIANA: So are you happy then, with your decision to have made the exit from corporate life onto the more creative sphere of software?ASH: So far, so good. That's all I can say about it. Because it's definitely not as consistent, it's not as predictable. Income is definitely one of those things that's very unpredictable, but that's fine. I think it's one of those things that you have to do. Like, I have been a manager since the age of 22.ADRIANA: Oh my God. That is very early on.ASH: Wow. Yeah. So for me, actually, for most of my adult life, having only done that, it is like, I need to do this.ADRIANA: Yeah. I think it's so cool that you've made this transition, this pivot, because it is so scary to make such a major pivot no matter what stage you are in your life, but especially if you've been doing one thing for such a long period of time, can be absolutely terrifying. And you don't know, if we knew what the future held, we'd all be rich. But so many unknowns, right? With making a huge career leap. But I think also knowing deep in your heart that it's time for a change is such a great motivation to change.ASH: And I definitely knew that. So the stars aligned, as I said before, and just had to do it.ADRIANA: That's awesome. Hats off to you. I think it's so cool when folks just move out of their comfort zone into following a passion onto greener pastures, knowing that there's something else out there that could possibly make you happier. And it sounds like it has made you happier, which is cool.ASH: Oh, absolutely. It has made me appreciate, though, what it is like to be an early career... Well, I still haven't got a career in this next sphere. Right. But it's made me think more about what it's like to be an early career or even pre career person getting into a space, it's like so many things you got to learn so many ways you got to organize yourself. And I feel like, I'm very organized now because that's all, that's my expertise, my area of managing myself, managing my ability to do inordinate amounts of work in shorter and shorter periods of time. And that's a skill that a lot of people don't have because early career professionals are generally 18 to 25.ADRIANA: Yeah.ASH: So that's something that I am exploring as well, to see, can I share some insights with them to help them develop their technical skills faster and also take on some soft skills, which is so important in the workplace.ADRIANA: Yeah, and that's the thing. We should never, ever underestimate the importance of the soft skills. I know it's so easy to get, if you're a technical person, get caught up in the technology, and that's going to help you coast through your career, but it's totally not. I mean, we scoff at the idea of having to take English in school, but sorry to say, but communication is such an important aspect of the software industry, and if you're unable to communicate effectively, then you might as well just be a crappy coder because it's not going to get you super far, unfortunately.ASH: So one of the projects I'm doing right now is called The Odin Project, and that's about essentially learning how to use GitHub and HTML and CSS and everything from scratch. And I'm following it to the t. I am not skipping any steps. That is the worst thing you can do to say, hey, I already know this, I can skip it.ADRIANA: So true.ASH: People do it so often. I used to do it so often.ADRIANA: Oh my God, so guilty of it.ASH: I think we all are. So following that, I have learned that it's so important to take every step. And also there was one aspect of Project Odin I wanted to mention, but it'll come to me later, hopefully.ADRIANA: Okay. Now, having spent just circling back on the corporate aspect of a chunk of your career, what would you say was for someone who's been in the corporate life for so long, how would you describe it? What are some of the ups and the downs?ASH: So the ups would definitely be power, which you don't realize you have until much later, and then you have to realize that you have to exercise it judiciously. I didn't say that. Right. Judicious. Okay. That's one of my fail words. People used to say it so often in my space. Like judiciously. Yes.ADRIANA: There you go.ASH: Finally. Got it. Yeah, got there eventually. So that's one of the things it's like when you are in this space it's a strong structure. It's very different to how people like to think in tech teams, where it's a more flatter structure. You can talk about problems generally. You can talk about problems more readily. I oversaw a few tech teams over the years, and generally they would just express their opinions to me as is.And that was quite refreshing because I was so used to people sugar coating things, and people, oh, my God. Wanting to put their best foot forward, for example, that it just was refreshing to work in that kind of environment, whereas there's a lot of formality in a more rigid corporate structure. I would say, yeah, I did at times find it stifling, but then it's just one of the things, once you're in the system, you just got to keep rolling. You just keep moving. It's like a routine. You get that morning coffee. You have that coffee at 11:00 a.m. You have that coffee at 2:00 p.m..I cut out coffee. After that, I realized how it became a part of life, how you're actually just in that system, going through that routine of a rigid structure. Obviously, you have to have some structure in tech work, but there's definitely a lot more in a more formal environment.ADRIANA: Yeah, I definitely agree. I think for me, the most jarring thing was, first of all, in corporate world, they do not like you swearing. I got in trouble for swearing. Oh, my God, I got into so much trouble for swearing. And I'm like, really? So I very much appreciate being in a workplace where I can swear freely because I am a swearer. So that was number one for me. Number two was like, you must respect the hierarchy. None of this.Like, you can't go to your skip level manager for a thing. You must resolve it with your direct manager. And, oh, my God, I got in shit for insubordination. I'm like, I just want to get stuff done. I don't care who I have to go through. I just want to do my job and do right by the company. That was definitely something that I got burned on in my career, which lesson learned for the corporate world. Do not do that.ASH: Sometimes doing the right thing is not doing the right thing in that environment.ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. That is a great way of putting it, which makes it very difficult to navigate that kind of environment if your mind isn't compatible with that mindset of working. And I don't think mine was. So, yeah, that's one of the reasons why I'm not in a big, stuffy corporate environment anymore.ASH: Absolutely. I don't want to knock it completely as either myself because there are some people who thrive in that environment and it works really well for them. It didn't work for me, but I still did it, if it makes any sense.ADRIANA: Yeah, I feel you. I mean, same thing. I was in a large corporate environment for a chunk of my career and then I discovered like, wait, there's other stuff out there? What are you talking about? But I totally agree with you. It works for some people. Different strokes for different folks. People are successful in their own different ways and it's cool to see how different people thrive in different environments. Definitely not for though.ASH: Yeah.ADRIANA: Thank you so much Ash, for geeking out with us today, y'all. Don't forget to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media.ASH: Peace out and geek out.ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout. Hey there, Geeking Out fans. We're taking a two week break as I prepare for KubeCon in Paris. We'll be back with a brand new episode on Tuesday, April 2nd. Until then, peace out and geek out.

About our guest:Developer Advocate, teacher, and failed startup founder. Published author. Currently leading all things DevRel at Tracetest.io.Find our guest on:bento.me/adnanrahic (link to Adnan's socials)Adnan on MediumFind us on:All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingoutAll of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillelaShow Links:ViberNode.jsAngular JSJQueryJava SwingFreeCodeCampTracetestMalabiAspectoJest and AVA (JS testing tools)JUnitCypress (testing)Playwright (testing)K6 (load testing)OpenTelemetry DemoTracetest in the OpenTelemetry DemoCloud Native Live: The power of traces - why OpenTelemetry embraced trace-based testingGoogle Hipster ShopTrace-based Testing the OpenTelemetry Demo by Daniel DiasTracetest on Nomad (Adriana's GitHub)Tracetest Cypress IntegrationTranscript:ADRIANA: Hey, y'all. Welcome to Geeking Out. The podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery DevOps Observability, reliability and everything in between. I'm your host Adriana Villela coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today. And you know what? I did a really crappy job because I forgot to ask how to pronounce your last name.ADNAN: It's so difficult that you'll butcher it. I don't mind. Seriously, take a stab and try your best.ADRIANA: Okay. You're not even going to give me a hint?ADNAN: Go for it.ADRIANA: Oh, dude. That's mean!ADNAN: The hint is I am from the Balkans. So eastern Europe, That's the only hint?ADRIANA: Yeah, so exactly. I don't know how to pronounce the funky accents any more than most people don't know how to pronounce the weird brazilian accents. So basically geeking out with me, I have Adnan, whose last name I cannot pronounce. No, I'm going to try. Hang on. That's so mean.ADNAN: Hey, everyone. Yeah, my last name is pronounced "rah-hitch", which is the c with the thing on it (ć) is like a "ch" sound. So it's basically if you're eastern European, you'll basically know if you're anything else you would have no absolute clue. Also funky because my name is Adnan, which is Arabic and I'm white, so that's kind of strange as well. But yeah, that's just being Bosnian, you know? We have a lot of different cultures here in the Balkans and yeah...super, super proud of that and happy to be here as well. So I've known Adriana for a couple of years now.ADRIANA: We are KubeCon buddies!ADNAN: Yeah.ADRIANA: Yeah. I'm actually super excited to meet up with you at Kubecon in Paris.ADNAN: Same, same. It's going to be great. I've never been to Paris.ADRIANA: I went when I was a kid with my parents so I was 18 or 19, I think, at the time. And it's different when you travel with your parents. So I guess I wasn't like a kid kid, but I traveled with my parents so it is going to be a different experience compared to not traveling with my parents. But I mean when I went I enjoyed the touristy things. I'm hoping I can do some more kind of like off the beaten path in Paris.ADNAN: We need to figure out anybody that speaks French and just meet up with them so they can take us around.ADRIANA: Oooh, I speak French.ADNAN: Oh, right, Canada!ADRIANA: Canada. Yeah, my high school...okay... Canada is technically a bilingual country and I will put it in air quotes because, yes, we are a bilingual country, and you look at the packaging for all of our products, and it's bilingual, but realistically speaking, the further west you move from Québec, the less French you speak in school. So, like, it's mandatory in elementary school, but it peters off the further west you move. So I was lucky enough to have gone to high school in Ottawa, Canada's capital, which is a very bilingual city. And so my high school had, like, kind of a...they had an immersion program where they had different levels of immersion. So you could do, like, full immersion or half immersion. So in high school, I did half immersion for, like, I think, two years. So it meant, like, half of my classes were in French, and one of my classes that was in French was gym class.ADNAN: Wow, that was a smart move, right?ADRIANA: Yeah. But for me, picking up French wasn't so hard. I moved to Canada when I was ten, and picking up French wasn't terrible because I speak Portuguese. And so I found a lot of parallels between French and Portuguese.ADNAN: Latin languages are easier, right, if you speak one Latin language, picking up another one. Same with the Slavic languages here in eastern Europe. I have a friend who's from Czechia, and she picked up Bosnian in one year, and it's crazy. Having a Bosnian boyfriend helped her as well.ADRIANA: Yeah.ADNAN: I'm not going to lie, but still, it's doable, right? So if you speak any language that, any language from Russian to anything here in the Balkans, it's so similar that you can pick up a lot. So I imagine it's the same. I have actually two of my coworkers. One is Brazilian and one is Argentinian. But this Brazilian guy lives in Argentina and he speaks Spanish and Brazili- sorry. What the hell? Portuguese. He speaks Portuguese and he switches between them fluently and seamlessly. Right? So I think that's really cool.ADRIANA: That's very cool. I find, like, as a Portuguese speaker, understanding most Spanish words is fairly straightforward. So, like, when I went to Barcelona in 2019, I spoke "Portoñol", so I just threw in some words in Portuguese with a Spanish-ish accent and prayed that I was understood. And I went into a shoe shop in Barcelona, and I was able to actually buy a pair of shoes speaking, my second-rate Spanish.ADNAN: That happened to me in Slovakia. I was. I was in Slovakia with my wife a few months ago and went into a store, and we kind of figured it out. They knew zero English, for the record. We kind of had to do the Bosnian Slovakian and back and forth, and it went surprisingly well. So I'm very proud of that. I'm very happy to see that it works for you as well.ADRIANA: Yes. That's so super cool. Well, are you ready to get into some of our lightning round questions? All right. Okay, let's do this. Question number one. Are you left handed or right handed?ADNAN: I am right handed. So falling while skiing and hurting my left is not a problem. Eating with utensils is an issue because...that was a problem. So I kind of have to do this old switcheroo, but yeah.ADRIANA: Next question. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?ADNAN: I was an avid Android user up until, was it probably two, three years ago, and I switched everything over to Apple products. Phone, Macbooks, the headphones, earphones. Actually, I only have the Bose noise canceling headphones that aren't Apple. Everything else is basically Apple, which is...My wife hates it because she runs Android, so I can't airdrop her photos. So I need to buy the family package iCloud, so I need to send her links. And she doesn't want an iPhone. So yeah.ADRIANA: I feel ya. My sister is...she's an iPhone user, but her husband is like, an Android user, so then she's always like, I don't know how to get files over to him. I'm like, Google Drive?ADNAN: And then she goes like, just send me on Viber. It's like it destroys the photo. If I send you a photo, we go to some beautiful place in freaking Dubrovnik where they did the Game of Thrones thing, and I take a picture, she'll, "Just send me on Viber." Like, it's going to destroy the photo. And she doesn't get it. She's not an IT. Like, she doesn't get it. It's frustrating.ADRIANA: These are the issues that divide families. Just kidding.ADNAN: iCloud family solves everything, right?ADRIANA: Yeah, it's the age-old battle. My husband and I converted to Mac. Jeez...we were, I think, like four or five years married. Before that. We're like, "No! Windows! No Mac!" Like Linux, fine, but Windows or whatever, right? And we were BlackBerry users, and Mac was like...ahhhh...And then for funsies, I got...it was a Mac Mini. I think one of the first years, the Mac Mini came out and they were like, super cheap.I'm like, let's use this as a media server. Then we plug it in, and I'm like, ahhhh, I don't know how to use this. And then for funsies, I'm like, I'm going to get myself a MacBook Pro because it was like a Black Friday sale or whatever, which in Apple terms, Black Friday sales are like, it's the saddest sale ever because you're not getting a deep discount. But I'm like, oh, discount on Apple product. And then I started using my MacBook Pro, and I just bought myself like this Core i7 Intel machine super beefed up. And I'm like, but I want to use my Mac Pro, which isn't nearly as beefy. And it's so beautiful. That was kind of it for me, that converted me from then on and was like, yeah, I can't go back.ADNAN: It's too good. It just works.ADRIANA: Right? Yeah, it just works. I'm with you. Okay, next question. Similar vein. Mac, Windows or Linux?ADNAN: Oh, I was super into Linux up until I got my Mac. I was only running Linux and I just switched to Mac when the M1 chip got released. That was quite recent as well. So I was running full on Linux up until that. Absolutely hated Windows. Nothing against Microsoft. I think they're great as a company and great with what they're doing. And Windows as a system...it's perfectly fine. I just couldn't...it was just so horrible. But yeah, no, it is Mac all the way right now.ADRIANA: I feel you. Yeah. And the M chips are like..."MWAH!" When I went from my Intel Mac to my M1 Mac, I'm like, I don't hear a fan. My computer is not burning my lap. What's going on?ADNAN: And I'm still using the Air one, which is the small one without the fans, without the anything. And you charge it like a phone, you plug it in overnight.ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, the charger is like tiny.ADNAN: Plug it in overnight, you take it off the charger in the morning, you use it all day. You get back home, you plug it in when you go to sleep, and you never charge it. It's nuts.ADRIANA: The M1 Mac airs are so pretty. It's like a little piece of jewelry for your desk.ADNAN: And it goes with my very small hands. I have very ladylike hands. Right. The palm is super small, so it kind of fits nice. Right. But I need to get a bigger one. I need to get a proper one. It's getting a bit crowded with all of the Kubernetes stuff I need to run and demo.ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, I feel you. I went for the 14 inch instead of the 16 inch M1 Mac Pro...MacBook Pro. Because even though I like the screen size on the 16 inch, it's so much thicker compared to the Intel Macs of the same size that I was like. And I had a 15 inch Intel Mac. I was like, holy crap. It just feels too big. But to each their own. That's just my personal...ADNAN: I'm actually not against them bringing back all of the ports. It's fine that it's a bit thicker with all those ports. I'm right now connected with a dongle that's massive and it's taking up a ton of space on my table with all of these microphones and whatnot. And it would just make more sense to just have the jack. It's just like why not, right?ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. It's nice having the HDMI back on the computer. And I think I have like an SD slot. Yeah, looking over, I have an SD slot on my Mac.ADNAN: You're a podcaster, you need that, right?ADRIANA: I know, right? Yeah, it's true, it's true. Okay, next question. Favorite programming language.ADNAN: Is Javascript even a language or is it all fake? What do you think?ADRIANA: Don't ask me about JavaScript. My opinions are as strong as using Windows as a primary machine. I don't want to offend anyone who likes either of those things, just a personal preference.ADNAN: I mean, I love it. I've used Javascript for ages. You remember when Angular JS 1.0 was released? Like Angular JS? That was like freaking ten years ago now. That's when I use Javascript on the front end, in Javascript terms old. I was around when Node was 0.12. That's when I started using Node.ADRIANA: Wow, that's old school. Dude, but I am older because I remember when Javascript came out before Angular and Node. Actually, and it was the OG Javascript that really turned me off from Javascript and then I ran away screaming.ADNAN: Oh, JQuery was terrible. JQuery was the bane of my existence. It was horrible.ADRIANA: I vaguely remember jquery, I just remember trying out a few things in Javascript and being like, "Next, please. I'll go to backend development, thank you." Ran to my Java. Now mind you, Java had like a front-end thing, I think it was called Swift (NOTE: it was Swing) and it was like a piece of crap. Also ran away.ADNAN: I would have thought that Java wouldn't be good in the front-end.ADRIANA: Yeah, it was bulky and horrible. Next question. Do you prefer dev or ops?ADNAN: Tough one, tough one. I do prefer dev. I do prefer dev, but I've been tightly linked to ops for five or so years, so it's a tough one, but still, I would still prefer dev. I don't mind doing the ops, but I think the automation part of ops I really like. The Kubernetes part of ops is painful. I'm not smart enough for that stuff. I swear to God. Networking and all of those infra Kubernetes things, I'm definitely not smart enough for that.ADRIANA: Kubernetes is definitely a test of patience. There's like so many aspects to it that I feel like you can be really good in one area of it and okay-ish in other areas. Enough to be dangerous kind of thing.ADNAN: Yeah, but then there are so many tools. There are so many things that you need to know. I have a buddy, actually, my best man. He's been doing ops...so automation and basically all things Kubernetes for years now. And dude, I ask him something and dude pulls out an answer out of thin air and then tells me something I've never heard about. And he goes like. Says something like, "Did you taint?" What are you talking about? It's like a tribal thing. It's tribal knowledge, that stuff. I don't really know where people learn all that. So...crazy.ADRIANA: I think it's usually like learning out of necessity. I find all my Kubernetes knowledge is learned out of necessity. It's like I need to figure out this thing. But hey, it means that you basically have a Kubernetes zombie apocalypse friend that if there's like the Kubernetes zombie apocalypse, you know who to call for help.ADNAN: Oh, yeah, for sure. He's the one. What's it called? He works in a platform team. And the platform team is all just developer experience, performance, reliability, uptime. So he's the person you call when shit hits the fan.ADRIANA: That's awesome. Okay, next question. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?ADNAN: Oooh...YAML. YAML.ADRIANA: YAML. Yeah, I'm Team YAML.ADNAN: Who doesn't love YAML?ADRIANA: The JSON people. So many people bitch about YAML. And yes, there are annoying things about YAML.ADNAN: I like to call myself a "full stack YAML developer".ADRIANA: I feel you. Lots of time buried in YAML. Okay, next question. Spaces or tabs? Which one do you like better?ADNAN: It's a tough one because I set up VSCode to do spaces, but I hit the tab and then it does the spaces.ADRIANA: Yes. Hey, that's how mine's set up too.ADNAN: Yeah, big brain move.ADRIANA: Yeah, I used to be like all tabs, but I don't know, I feel like YAML kind of made me do it. For some reason. It was an incentive to convert my tabs to spaces as you do. You hit tab and it turns it into spaces. Magic. Okay, two more questions. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?ADNAN: For sure. I don't mind videos. It's just that it's either really long video. I mean, really long. What's really long nowadays? Ten minutes and above.ADRIANA: I know, right? TikTok nation.ADNAN: Three minutes and above, people think it's long nowadays. I'd say ten minutes. Above that is probably videos that I like watching just because of the content I can get out of it and learn from it. And then otherwise, just for day to day stuff, I would rather read a docs page, I would rather read a blog post than I would watch a video, which is, I've heard pretty strange people don't agree with me, so I might be. Yes.ADRIANA: Really? That's so funny. Because most...So then I have a very interesting, like, I have a skewed population then on this podcast, because most of the folks I've asked this question to all lean towards text.ADNAN: We're the old guard.ADRIANA: Yeah, I know, right?ADNAN: Born and raised. Before Facebook, before Instagram, TikTok.ADRIANA: I know. It's true. It's true. Yeah, I know. Whenever I watch old TV shows and there's, like, no cell phones and they're, like, calling from a pay phone, I'm like, "Just text them!" Obviously very tongue-in-cheek comment. But I'm like, damn, we are used to things that...the things that we're used to now, we take so much for granted.ADNAN: Oh, yeah, for sure.ADRIANA: Okay, final question. What is your superpower?ADNAN: Ooh, my amazing sense of humor.ADRIANA: Dun dun, dun.ADNAN: I didn't. That was terrible. That was terrible. I don't really know. I would say I am moderately funny. That would be it.ADRIANA: Which is a good superpower because you have to break the ice. Right? Especially when you're dealing with people, which you have to as part of your job. And so being moderately funny to kind of crack some exterior shells of grumpy. When you're interacting with certain people, I think that's a skill.ADNAN: I also like listening. So I like hearing something interesting, and I'm very particular with the people I have in my friends group where I generally like hearing something that I can relate to and also think about. So I like hearing that from people I don't know as well, because hearing something that you can think about and can motivate you or you can just have that thought, oh, that's really cool. Let me brainstorm on that and then figure out something that can benefit myself from that and then give feedback to the person and then have a conversation about that. I think that's where especially for me, I like the listening aspect of that. I think that's really cool.ADRIANA: Yeah, for sure. Totally agree. All right, well, you survived the lightning round.ADNAN: Yeah.ADRIANA: Give yourself pat on the back.ADNAN: Not that bad. You told me it's going to be horrible. It was not that bad.ADRIANA: I didn't say it was going to be horrible. Some people get nervous. It's supposed to be an icebreaker. Okay, well, now that we've cleared the lightning round, questions, why don't you tell folks about yourself? Like, what do you do?ADNAN: Yeah, I mean, the quick rundown would be that I do developer relations. So I've been doing developer relations since it was called technology evangelism. So I've been doing it for a while. And yeah, I think it is awesome that I am quite literally an influencer for tech people, which is very strange. I'm not very good at influencing or influencing or whatever the word is, but yeah, I like talking to people, I like listening and I like educating. And I think that was the reason why I moved into developer relations from being an engineer...so I was an engineer for almost half my career so far, and then was basically either do developer relations, which I ended up being very good at, or be a mediocre engineer. And I was like, yeah, let's kind of try doing the thing where I'm actually kind of better, instead of being kind of average as an engineer.So I said, yeah, what the hell? Why not let me try this. And that was back when the Medium blog was taking off. They had just launched their, what's it called? They had publications and whatnot, and they just taking off. Oh yeah, FreeCodeCamp was a thing back then. So I hosted a, I mean, still is now, but back then we were just starting out all over the world. They had local groups that were doing meetups, events, education, teaching people, and I was doing a lot of in-person education as well, just teaching courses. That's basically just because a startup I was doing early in my career was all focused on education as well, just like generating courses, just like Udemy, but for a smaller local market. And that kind of fell through.And then I just started doing education myself and then doing the FreeCodeCamp thing. And then the medium thing took off and my blog on Medium just got crazy. It took off so strangely that I got like 5,000 followers within less than a year just because of FreeCodeCamp's publication taking off and publishing. Yeah, I didn't really know what to do. This 24 year old kid, just like having a medium thing take off, what the hell? So that was super fun. And then I did a lot of FreeCodeCamp, was leading the local FreeCodeCamp community as well for a couple of years and that was when I figured, well this is fun. So I took a DevRel job and yeah, I've been doing it ever since and it's basically always been something in the Observability monitoring, log management, I'm going to say...space.I did some big data as well, one previous job, but it's always been something like this...that's, I'm going to say, a niche market that isn't really easy to figure out and that requires a lot of handholding and a lot of help from the, I'm going to say marketing support, sales and DevRel teams, especially for building products. And I had a nice foundation in product development because I had a startup early in my career, so I had a touch of, Okay, so the code you're writing isn't...it's not what you write and the code you write, it's the product that you generate. Nobody cares about the code, people care about the product you're putting out, right? So I think that mindset early in my career helped me a lot with DevRel as well. And yeah, I'm carrying that with me and I think that's the, if anybody asks me for advice regarding how to be good at developer relations, it's just you have to put out a good product and you have to be the connection between the end user and your team that builds the product and that's it.If you want to have product-led growth, if you want to build a community, if you want to build the influence of you as a person, you need to have a product that people want to use and you're the person that needs to tell people if it's usable or not. And by people I mean your team. I think that's the only golden rule, if there is any golden rule in developer relations is you have to be very realistic. I make jokes about us being influencers and us doing popularity contests and we do Only Fans for engineers. It's all jokes. I'm not serious. Those are humor, like comedy. But truthfully that's irrelevant.Truthfully, it's all about the product and it's all about you figuring out a strategy to position the product in a way that makes sense and for you to position yourself as somebody in the industry that is influential to talk about the industry or the thing your product is doing. So yeah, this got super serious super quickly.ADRIANA: But I think you make a really good point, because being in developer relations, you have to build trust between your audience...between you and your audience, right? They have to know that you're not like just some sleazy ass salesperson who's just trying to sell them on a product. They need to believe that you have something interesting to say and that, oh, by the way, I represent this product as well. And because they like what you have to say, I feel kind of, it naturally gravitates towards, oh, take a look at what they do kind of thing, right? So I do feel like there's a little bit of that.I think basically making a connection with your intended audience, right? Makes a huge difference. This is not the job for people who are extremely introverted or introverts who have no desire to put on an extroverted face for a limited period of time every day.ADNAN: Kind of, I mean, and also the core or the root of our job, developer relations. It started as sales engineering at Microsoft. Or where was it started as sales engineering 15 years ago where they figured out engineers don't really want to listen to salespeople. So they took engineers and made them into salespeople and then they figured that worked back then. And then how it evolved, it didn't really work. And then they figured out the evangelist role or the technology evangelist role, which was a thing ten years ago when I first heard about it. And then that kind of stopped working because evangelist is, nobody knows what the hell you're doing. One time, one lady asked me if I do churches. Like, I swear to God. She was like, what do you do? I was like, I'm a technology evangelist. Oh, so you do like church? I was like, no, I don't do the church. Like, what the hell? I was like, probably that's the problem. That's why they changed. It doesn't really make sense. Advocate. Developer relations and developer advocate kind of sounds more normal, I'm going to say.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's so funny. I would have never thought that. But I think us being in tech, it's not something that we would have necessarily associated with church. I could see how that...yeah...You were saying that you're working in an area that's fairly niche, right? Like Observability. And it's definitely one of those areas that has expanded a fair bit in the last several years, which is super exciting. Observability is near and dear to our hearts because I think it's really the part of, it's an evolutionary step in SRE, right?You can't be a good SRE these days without having a properly observable system. So it's very exciting what's happening in the space now. So many different innovations, and especially like where you work, right? With Tracetest, I think is very exciting because of the nature of what you guys do. If you can talk a little bit about that.ADNAN: Yeah, for sure. I mean, doubling down on that Observability as a space is massive. I mean, just take a look at Datadog and their IPO. That alone is insane with regards to how much it's needed in our industry. We're not really building monoliths anymore. Like 20 years ago, not having intricate monitoring and Observability tooling was okay. It was fine. Now, what are we building nowadays? Do you think Netflix, like Netflix is thousands and thousands of services that are all interconnected.They need to communicate, they need to do something, and they're all doing it together. How do you fix that if it's broken? So that's the thing. Observability now is, I'm going to say, at the birthplace of where it's going to be ten years from now. OpenTelemetry right now, it's getting to that stable state where it's available to actually use reliably in production. More and more of the libraries are stable. More and more, I'm going to say both the metrics and logs, not just the tracing libraries, are also getting to a stable state. And a lot of the tooling around the Observability space is defaulting to use OpenTelemetry libraries and OpenTelemetry as the standard for both ingesting data, collecting, generating, and all that fancy words that we all know.And I love that. And that's where I'm thinking. We are generating huge amounts of data with traces, with distributed tracing, because of our systems being distributed. So we need to use distributed tracing to actually get a context of what the hell is happening in our system. An API call isn't really an API call. With 200, it works. An API call is an API call that calls a queue, that calls a message bus, that calls a cache, that calls a database. Those are seven different steps in one API call.So it's not really just an API call that you need to have visibility into and see what's happening. That's when I'm seeing that people are only using all of that data currently for production environments, for figuring out when their users have problems, and how to circle back to their engineering teams to actually know exactly what went wrong. Which is awesome. But that's just step one in that whole cycle. We're talking about DevOps. We're talking about that new principle of DevOps where we have a cycle of, we have the developer pushing code to the ops person and then the ops person pushes it back because they have Observability to tell the developer what's going wrong. But that cycle isn't complete without the testing part. And that's where Tracetest, where I'm working right now, we're building a tool that taps into that DevOps cycle where you're using the Observability, so the distributed tracing and all of that telemetry you get from your system from OpenTelemetry and whatever tracing backends you're using, ranging from Datadog to Sumo Logic to all of the fancy big ones to ServiceNow as well. And you're tapping into that data to run your integration testing, your end-to-end testing, your UI testing with all of these. So you're basically enhancing all of the tests you already have. So that's what I think is super cool with Tracetest, is that it doesn't just give you the test tool to tap into OpenTelemetry and run test specs on the trace data itself, which means that you can basically run a test on every single part of your transaction that an API makes. You can say, say, oh, I want to make sure that this external API call returned 200 and there is no freaking way I can do that with any test tool right now. I have to mock stuff and I have to kind of fake stuff out. I need to figure out how it works. And I spend days on that instead of let me ping the API, get real data from the trace, I write my specs on that data, that's real data and I put that in my CI and you're done.You already have the data, like freaking use it, right? That's the magical part where we're already generating all of that data, you're already keeping the data, use it for testing as well. And I think that's where I'm going to say next groundbreaking step in this DevOps cycle is going to be where test tools are just lagging behind. So we need to figure something out and hopefully Tracetest is going to fill that gap, fill the shoes or whatever we want to say.ADRIANA: Yeah, I think that's what I love the most about the idea of trace-based testing is like you're already emitting traces, just take advantage of the data. You have data, as you said, use it. And the other thing that you mentioned, which I think is something that it seems so obvious when you say it, but it's not something that we're in the habit of doing yet, which is like viewing Observability as part of the SDLC, because everyone's like, oh, it's part of an SRE practice. Absolutely. But you can't have an observable system if you don't instrument your code. Where does application instrumentation come from? During development. And therefore it means that Observability starting way earlier in the SDLC than we care to admit, right? Shifting those conversations in that direction I think will be very important really for organizations to really make the most out of Observability, right?For starters, there's so many different aspects, but instrumentation, like getting into the habit of instrumenting your code and admitting that it starts earlier, I think is so important.ADNAN: I think the main thing that people can think of from a logical point of view is that we've been instrumenting with logs for decades. I don't see anybody complaining. Oh my God, I have to add, logging, it's just normal. Why is tracing and instrumenting your code? Why is that any different? The logical aspect of that is the exact same, with one addition where you have this context that propagates. And if you use OpenTelemetry...ADRIANA: That ties everything together. Heaven forbid!ADNAN: You're using OpenTelemetry libraries anyway, so it just does it automatically. You don't really have to be any... like, you can be an average engineer as I, and I can make it work, right? So it's not rocket science. The people that made OpenTelemetry, the maintainers, they're the rocket scientists. You can just drive the rocket, you don't really need to think about how it works, right?ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm definitely very excited. I think when Tracetest came on the market, I think one of the predecessors was Malabi, that I think was created by Aspecto and that was just for JavaScript, like code written in JavaScript. It's really cool that now we've got a tool like Tracetest that is language agnostic and it makes sense, right? Because OpenTelemetry...you can instrument your code using OpenTelemetry in so many different languages. So it makes sense that it's not restricted to one particular language because that way we take that full advantage of being able to really instrument across microservices that are written in different languages, right? Like you said, you don't have to futz around with different mocking and different libraries, like different testing libraries for different languages. We all speak the same language and it's called OpenTelemetry.ADNAN: That's the thing where a lot of the bottlenecks when testing is just, it takes too much time. We can't really see value from all of the time that we need to put into it. Then you have the blocker of oh, I need to know JavaScript for whatever...Jest, AVA, or whatever testing tool I need. Oh, I need to use Python for whatever test tool I need to use for Python and then JUnit or whatever Java. So you're zoned in and you're kind of blocked off. You're siloed into that environment versus using trace-based testing. And using testing in general with distributed tracing with trace test is that it doesn't care about the language, it only cares about the trace. So triggering the test itself, trace test handles that through a definition that you define.The definition could be YAML. You can just click it in the UI and it triggers a test for you. You get the traces back and then you create your specs based on the traces. Now these specs, they're language agnostic as well because they're generated with a, I'm going to say selector language, which is very similar to CSS. You basically select the span that you want to test. You say, I want this span to be equal to 200, I want this span to have a duration less than 200 milliseconds or whatever else test spec you want to add and that's it. And then based on that, if you want to integrate with any of your existing integration, I'm going to say integration testing tools. If you want to trigger from Cypress, you can do that as well, because we have this concept of a trigger where the trigger can be anything from an HTTP request, a gRPC request, a Cypress test, a Playwright test, a K6 load test.So basically anything externally that you're already using can initiate a trace test...trace-based test...as well. So whatever you're using, for whatever front end testing, UI testing, integration testing, load testing, or whatever type of testing you're using, you can add Tracetest to your integration testing. I'm going to say testing harness, and it's just going to work perfectly fine. And that's what I like about it, because the only integration points you need to care about is, okay, so Tracetest needs access to your traces, which are kept in Jaeger, Grafana, whatever you're using, and then it just needs to trigger your app. So that's the only integration point. If you have Cypress, you can trigger it with Cypress. If you have K6, you can do it with K6. So I like that modularity and that flexibility of, you can literally add it however you want and it only cares about the trace and it just works.ADRIANA: That's awesome. And the other thing worth mentioning is that trace test was integrated with the OpenTelemetry Demo recently, right? Like last fall, I want to say like just before KubeCon, North America.ADNAN: Yeah, it was a couple of months ago where I think it was...one or two of the maintainers, I can't remember. I think it was Pierre and Juliano. I actually met Juliano in person in Vienna at KCD Austria. I think it was before KubeCon in Chicago. Lovely guy, by the way. Shoutout: Juliano is awesome. Yeah, and we had a great talk about the addition of traces to the demo. It was basically him saying, oh, I literally broke the demo.I'm a maintainer, the tests passed, I merged the PR and I broke it, and I'm the maintainer. So I know how traces work. I'm very well versed in how it works. I know the ins and outs of the system, so I'm supposed to know how the system works as well. But I still managed to break it and I still managed to break it with passing tests. So that was a pretty worrying factor there. And that's when we started chatting through the GitHub issues and we said, yeah, well, I mean, let's try it, let's add it in, see how it works, add some integration tests. And then we did, and it's right now in the OpenTelemetry Demo.It's under the test directory, under Tracetest. You can check out every single service in the demo, has a dedicated set of tests and a test suite that runs basically on every PR, if I'm not mistaken. Right now, I think they did add that. Is it only on merges? But yeah, it's in the demo. If you want to take a look. What's also super cool is that as a spin off of that, we did the CNCF live, what's it called? I think cloud native Live team, we did a webinar, Whitney Lee and myself, we did a webinar just workshop showing how it works. So if you actually want to see me actually coding that, you can check that out on the CNCF Cloud Native Live podcast as well. Otherwise, just jump over to the demo. Yeah, I mean, easiest way for people to do it.ADRIANA: Yeah, I'll include that in the show notes. Yeah, I saw you posted that on LinkedIn. I was like, damn, I didn't know.ADNAN: They posted that on the landing page for OpenTelemetry. So that was quite humbling experience.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah. It's so nice to see, I think the integration of Tracetest in the OpenTelemetry Demo. And for those who aren't familiar, the OpenTelemetry Demo is based on the Google Hipster Shop. And it's basically the idea is to showcase what OpenTelemetry can do in kind of a complex-ish, sort of multi-microservice scenario written in different with microservices written in different languages. So it is not a simple application. There are a lot of moving parts and you can get it set up without too much effort, I would say locally, like using Docker Compose or if you're feeling adventurous, in Kubernetes. And so it's really cool to be able to integrate trace-based testing through Tracetest in the OpenTelemetry Demo because again, it's another piece of the puzzle, right?That's being put in, right? Really showcasing all the cool things that you can do with traces. It's not just for troubleshooting your production code, it is also for troubleshooting your development cycle, which is super exciting.ADNAN: It's normal. We've done test-driven development for years. I mean, come on, it's not a new thing because of the complexity of the systems we have now we're adding tracing to figure out what's happening. I mean, if we're already adding tracing to figure out what's happening in our development cycle, let's use that in the development cycle to also do the tests during development and then also integrate those tests in your CI, which is. I mean, it just makes sense for me. I'm not quite sure how is to put it.ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. It's one of those no-brainers, I think whenever someone comes up with a simple solution...and you know what's simple? When people are like, Oh yeah, that makes so much sense. Why didn't I think of that before? Well, there you go. Then that's when you know that this was the right thing to do, right?ADNAN: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. The Demo is really awesome. I think it was Daniel from our team who wrote a super, I'm going to say, detailed blog post on how he actually added trace test to the demo, to the OpenTelemetry Demo. So that might also be just a reference point for people that want to get started because it's a nice reference point because if they want to actually contribute to the Demo and try it themselves, checking that blog post will actually make sure that they run the tests correctly and that any change they make, they actually won't break the Demo on merging.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's such a really great idea because I think I'm a strong believer that if you want to contribute to OpenTelemetry, you don't have to boil the ocean, you don't have to like, oh, I've got to be a contributor on the SDK or API or whatever. Something as simple as there's something in the OpenTelemetry Demo where maybe there's a feature request open. You can take that on in a language that tickles your fancy. Such a great way to get started with contributing to OpenTelemetry and now having something to make, I guess the testing a little less scary, or at least to help you understand if you break the application why that happened. I think having the trace-based test integrated in with it can be such a relief, if you will, because it's like, okay, I know where to look, I see what's going on. It's not like panic.ADNAN: You also get just system overview. When you run a test, you go, okay, so this API is going to touch all of these parts of my system, and then I actually know what it's touching. And if I know what it's touching, I know actually how to go in and either improve it, fix it, or run another test after I'm done with my development cycle. So I don't know if you're new to a project or if you're an open source contributor, you have no idea how that stuff works. You're just kind of trying to read the documentation, trying to look at the architecture, trying to figure out what API does what. And then you end up breaking something and then you don't have a test for it. To make sure that you know that it's broken is just a nightmare. Right? And then let's think about, yeah, nowadays, with remote companies, people working all over the globe, you have distributed teams, you have teams of, I don't know, eight to ten people working.How do I know what my colleague on the other side of the world is doing in another team? And whether that...it's just nuts, right? You need to have a way of having a reliable architecture overview when you're running your development. So your development cycles need to have a very nice systematic overview, and then your tests need to cover the happy paths of all of that, of the architecture that your system is. I mean, it's just freaking, I don't know, I think it's the future, more or less.ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. As a final plug for the power of trace-based testing, in theory, it makes sense, but to be able to actually see it in practice in a complex scenario, because when I first played around with Tracetest...I played around with Tracetest when it was barely out, I think it came out, I want to say May 2022. And I was like, let's get this to run in Nomad for fun. So I got a little example working on my own. I'm like, cool. But then my next thought was like, how does this work in a complex scenario, right? So being able to see it work in a complex scenario, I think is very opening and really shows the power of trace-based testing and what it can do for you, right?ADNAN: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, the roadmap right now is pretty extensive, so we have a lot of cool ideas that we want to start implementing. But yeah, I'm going to say the k six and the cypress things integrations regarding the triggering, those have been, for me at least, super exciting. I'm going to say most exciting just because we're getting true end to end testing. Finally, your UI test is generating traces from your browser that then triggers your backend. That's then generating traces across your entire backend. So basically you have an end-to-end test that covers your entire path of everything. And that's not something I've seen anywhere before.Right. So that's going to be really cool thing once people start using it. We just basically released it a couple of days ago. We did our announcement webinar yesterday, by the way, for the Cypress integration. Yeah, it is toasty fresh.ADRIANA: Very nice. Hot out of the oven.ADNAN: I'm just waiting to get people to start using it. I'm thinking it's going to be super cool.ADRIANA: Very nice. Well, we are coming up on time, but before we sign off, I was wondering if there's any parting words of wisdom you would like to share with our audience.ADNAN: Yeah, wisdom. Well, I'm not great on wisdom. Humor is probably...ADRIANA: Oh, how about a joke? Tell a bad joke.ADNAN: Way too grim. Let's do parting wisdom. Work out. Do stuff that you like when you're not working and work becomes easy.ADRIANA: Yes. I really like that. As a fellow workout fan, I fully support that, definitely.ADNAN: Because we're sitting around for most of the if. If you don't do something either in the morning or after work or even during your work break or whatever you want to call it in between, do crossfit, weightlifting, strength training, bouldering, biking, ice hockey...whatever you guys in Canada do. I don't know what you guys in Canada probably ice hockey. You probably skate to work. Ice skate to work.ADRIANA: Not with the weather like here in Toronto. It's been like 4C. Yeah. Yeah. I guess hockey is the thing in Canada. I am a terrible ice skater. I know, I know. I can get from A to B, and mostly stop.ADNAN: I'm a terrible skier, as you can see. One, one.ADRIANA: There you go. There you go. Oh, yeah. And you said you're a good skater.ADNAN: Yeah, I've been skating since I was, like three years old. So skating is good, but skiing totally different. You know, when you do the crossovers when you're ice skating. Because my muscle memory is ice skate. Muscle memory. With my. Tried doing it on skis. I face planted and just slid through the snow. It was not nice. It was not nice.ADRIANA: Yeah. Believe it or not, I'm a better skier than an ice skater. I went through a skiing phase, but I haven't skied for a very long time.ADNAN: Just waiting for the weekend because it's going to be cold again. So I'm just going to drive up to the mountains and do some skiing.ADRIANA: Oh, nice. See, you have snow. Toronto is like, I don't know...like, the rest of Canada is getting pummeled with snow, and we're kind of in this little island of, like, where everyone else gets snow, we get rain. So I'm like, it doesn't even feel like winter.ADNAN: Vancouver is super sad.ADRIANA: Yeah. Is it cold? Yeah, it's gotten cold right in Vancouver, which is also unusual for this time of year. For Vancouver, it's like rain. We're getting Vancouver weather. Yeah. Well, and on that fun note...Well, thank you so much, Adnan, for geeking out with me today, y'all. Don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...ADNAN: Peace out and geek out.ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

About our guest:Daniela Baron is Staff Engineer at FundThrough. She has over 20 years of experience delivering software solutions for a variety of product, project and SaaS based companies with many languages and frameworks including Ruby on Rails, JavaScript (Node.js, React, Ember, Angular), Go, Python, and Java/Spring/Hibernate. Specialties include analyzing complex business requirements, writing maintainable code, implementing best practices such as linting and code coverage, engineering documentation, test automation, continuous integration/continuous deployment, and mentoring. Passionate about continuing education.Find our guest on:LinkedInDaniela's BlogFind us on:All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingoutAll of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillelaShow Links:MOOCsPluralsightTuts+Wes Bos (instructor)Erik Kennedy (instructor)GitHub GistMarkdownOpenStackHashiCorp VaultHashiCorp ConsulHashiCorp NomadHashiCorp Nomad CLINomad JobspecNomad TemplateBraintreeGatsbyTranscript:ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today, I have Danielle Baron. Welcome, Daniela.DANIELA: Hi, thanks for having me.ADRIANA: Super excited to have you on. So where are you calling from, Daniela?DANIELA: Also Toronto, Canada.ADRIANA: Yay, Toronto. Okay, I'm going to start with some lightning round questions. First off, are you a lefty or a righty?DANIELA: Right handed.ADRIANA: All right, do you prefer iPhone or Android?DANIELA: I've actually used both. And I prefer iPhone mostly because Apple seems to send security patches for a lot longer than I've gotten on the Android phones in the past. So if you're not getting security patches, your phone is basically a very expensive paperweight. So that's why stick with iPhone.ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Awesome. Next question. Mac, Linux or Windows? What's your preference?DANIELA: Yeah, that's another one that I've used all of them, and I'd say I'm happiest when I'm using a Mac. It has all the Unix utilities, a nice customizable terminal, but things just work for the most part. Like if I need to do video conferencing or watch YouTube videos, I don't need to fuss with it. So I feel like it has the best of all worlds.ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree. I used to have a dedicated Linux machine and then I realized that I needed to either dual boot Windows because it didn't have all the things that I needed, or I had to do a Windows VM, which in itself was like its own special nightmare. So I totally agree. Mac was like, oh, the answer to all my problems. Cool. Okay, favorite programming language?DANIELA: I'd have to say Ruby. Yeah, definitely optimizes for developer productivity and developer happiness. Yeah, I'm just in a really good mood when I use it.ADRIANA: I feel you. There's something to be said for programming the pleasure of programming. And there are some languages that bring the best out of you, and there are others that just make you angry. I found Java kind of made me angry whenever I would code in it because it's like, so verbose. And so I found my happy place with Python. So I'm glad you found your happy place with Ruby. Cool. Okay, next one. Dev or Ops?DANIELA: So for my career I've done mostly dev and I'm very happy doing that. But I have done a couple projects that were, I guess in the DevOps space and that was really cool to see that aspect of it. But mostly I've done dev.ADRIANA: Which one do you like better?DANIELA: I'd say if I could only do one, I'd stick to Dev because there's something very satisfying about building software, like working with the product team, figuring out what to build, actually building it and shipping it. There's just something very satisfying about that.ADRIANA: Yeah, totally. I totally feel you. Okay, next question. JSON or YAML?DANIELA: Ideally, I like to work in things that don't require too much configuration so you don't have to read too much of either of them.ADRIANA: Fair enough.DANIELA: Yeah, either one, really. I guess with YAML, when it gets really deeply nested, sometimes I get lost in all the white space. Which level am I at? Like if I hit the enter key and I want to go back, how many levels back do I need to go? I mean, editor support can help with that a little bit. Yeah, YAML is okay as long as it doesn't get too long and too nested. I find then it gets a little hard to read.ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, next question. There's two more left. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?DANIELA: It really depends on what I'm trying to do. If I'm in the middle of a problem at work, like I'm getting a stack trace or I can't install something, I'm getting a weird error, I just want a text-based solution. I don't have time at that point to watch a video that's going to explain to me the root cause of the problem. I just need a quick fix. But if I'm learning, like if I've set aside...okay, I have an hour, I want to sit down and learn a new topic. I actually find video is better for that.ADRIANA: Interesting. I like that. Cool. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?DANIELA: Oh my. I guess I'm strong on the written communication skills. Whenever I figure out a problem, I like to write either a blog post or if it's something very specific to work that I'm doing for my employer, I'll write up some internal documentation and include that on my next PR. Basically, then next time that problem comes up, if I've forgotten or I'm not around, then other people can fix that. So yeah, I'd say definitely good written documentation skills.ADRIANA: Yeah, and I can totally vouch for that because you write some really great blog posts and they're fun to read. They're super informative. So yeah, I definitely appreciate that. And I think having very strong communication skills is something that isn't the first thing that comes to mind when we talk about folks in tech. And yet it's such a crucial skill, right? Because yes, we communicate through code, but we must also communicate through whatever the official workplace language is so that we can understand each other and so that we can build better software together.DANIELA: Definitely, yeah.ADRIANA: Cool. Okay, well, now that we're done the lightning round questions, it's time to get into the meaty bits. So one of the things that you and I talked about before getting on here was something that's so key to developers, which is learning new skills. So I wanted to just get your thoughts around that.DANIELA: Yeah, definitely. Throughout my career, I've always had to learn new things. My educational background is computer science from university, which, at least the program I took was very theoretical, which meant that when I got into the real world, I didn't actually know anything, practically speaking. So yeah, I've always had to be learning. So early in my career, I used a combination of just try to get things working and then look it up. If it's not working, you get an error. Look it up on StackOverflow or other free online content like blog posts and tutorials, and you can definitely make some progress like that. But I always had a sense of that.I was just reacting to each problem as it came up and I didn't have a sense of big picture understanding. And I felt like, well, if I understood the kind of bigger picture of how this framework or language or whatever works, maybe I could plan things out more smoothly so I wouldn't be running into these little problems here and there. Yeah. Then I've done some formal education. This is like in-classroom kind of courses where there'll be a workshop, like a two-day or sometimes it's a whole week, and if you're lucky, your employer will actually pay for you to go and they'll send a few people from the same team to go learn together. And it's nice to learn with your team and to have a complete change of scenery so you're not at your desk trying to learn while you're also trying to put out fires or something. You actually have a whole day or a whole week to focus. So that's really nice.There are some drawbacks, so there's not much flexibility. Like, if someone needs to leave early to pick up their kid or has an appointment or something like that. Like these courses that they're in person, they tend to be like, let's say from nine to five. And if you have to leave for something, that's too bad, you're just going to miss out on the content. The other thing I found with some of these kind of in-classroom, in-person sort of courses, the pacing may not be appropriate for everyone. So sometimes what will happen is there'll be a section that maybe you already know it, it's kind of introductory, and you've already self-taught on that and you kind of wish the instructor would speed up through that, but they can't because there's other people in the class. They might not know that and it wouldn't be fair to them. On the other hand, sometimes there's some material that's really tricky and you might want to pause. I've felt like that in classes where I wish I could just pause the instructor and go explore a little bit on my own or maybe try it out and then come back.And you can't do that because the instructor has an agenda. They need to cover it because that's what everyone's paid for. So yeah, that's some pros and cons of that. I've also done MOOCs. So for those in the audience who may not have heard this term, it stands for massive open online course. And it's a kind of online learning platform that offers either free or low-cost courses, typically from universities. So it's a lot of kind of university topics and it's accessible to a global audience. So in theory, there's no limit to the number of participants you could be learning with people from all around the world.Yeah, it's really cool. My experience with these has been the quality of the material is really high. It is like university quality material. Usually there's like a series of video lectures that are released each week, but you do it from home, so it's more convenient. Like, you don't need to commute and be at a class at a particular time. You can watch the videos whenever you want, but there's always a drawback, so there's no accountability. No one's taking attendance or cares. Whether you're actually watching the video lectures or not, it's totally up to you.So you need a lot of internal motivation to get through the material. The other thing to watch out for is some of them do have assignments that need to be handed in each week. So although you could watch the videos whenever you want, if you don't keep up with it, it just tends to pile up. So you do need to set aside some regular time where you're going to do the lectures and do the assignments. And I actually found the workload was surprisingly high, like 6 to 10 hours a week that you need to succeed at these.ADRIANA: And that includes the assignments too?DANIELA: Yeah, like watching the videos, understanding the material, and completing the assignments. So I would say for anyone who's considering these, maybe evaluate what a typical week looks like in your life and see if you think you have six spare hours. And if not, I would urge caution before signing up because it might just create more stress in your life.ADRIANA: Are these like paid things as well? Like, these are paid courses?DANIELA: Some of them are. So when I took...I took some at Coursera and it was free. I think the way they have it right now is it's free if you're just going to watch it. But if you want someone to grade your assignments and you want to get some kind of certificate of completion or something like that, then there's a paid version. I don't have the prices offhand, but it is significantly less than what you'd pay for like a four year degree program at a university, something like that. So it is still a good choice for some people, but you definitely need the time.ADRIANA: Yeah. See, this is why, honestly, hats off to people who do school part time. Get some other degree while they're working. Because the thought of doing that, just like, I'm so over school right now, I do not want to touch that. It's been 20 plus years since I finished school, and the thought of trying to juggle that just does not tickle my fancy. I'd much rather sit off in the corner and be like, oh, this is a cool topic that I want to learn about. Let me just read up on it for me. Anyway, I know everyone's got their own style, but yeah, I think that would turn me off from that kind of thing. It's a little too structured for my taste.DANIELA: Yeah, very structured. And the time commitment is pretty big. So actually that leads me to the next kind of learning, which actually you might like better. So it's these online screencasts, so it's sites like Tuts+, Pluralsight. There's some individual instructors that offer these like Wes Bos and Erik Kennedy have these kind of longer video courses, but they're usually completely self-paced. And what they do is the video sections are split up into very short sections and they tend to be pretty practical and hands-on. Sometimes videos are split up as short as just ten minutes. So if you're the kind of person that doesn't have a lot of time, but maybe you could squeeze in 10-15 minutes a few times a week.The online screencast might be a really good choice for you. So you can watch a video and then try out some hands-on exercises, like follow along with the instructor. Because it's a video format, you can pause it, you can go explore other areas, like if there's something you don't understand and you realize, oh, I want to do a little bit more research here or try this out and then I'll come back and finish this video. It's totally up to you. It's self-paced, so the flexibility is like maximum flexibility on these. But again, you need a lot of internal motivation because there's no assignments to hand in, no one's checking up on you. These do tend to be paid services, like Pluralsight, for example. I think they have either a monthly or an annual subscription. So you might look after a year and say, oh well, I only use this for like half an hour, maybe I shouldn't renew my subscription.ADRIANA: Yeah, totally.DANIELA: But that's pretty much the only accountability there is. If you care about the money.ADRIANA: The incentive of like, "I'm paying for this, I should get the most out of it."DANIELA: Yeah, but that's definitely one of my favorite ways to learn. I found it very effective for learning all kinds of Javascript libraries and CSS frameworks and things like that. Another way to learn that I've used is with books, like programming books or technical books. This has some of the same qualities of the online screencast in terms of it's totally self-paced, ultimate flexibility. But some people prefer to learn in reading rather than watching videos content. And I find books do tend to go more in-depth than the videos. So this might be good for some people. Just a hot tip, definitely invest in a bookstand.I got one from Amazon for like $20 and it allows you to prop up the book right next to your monitor at a natural angle so that way you can keep your head and your back more straight when you're reading rather than being kind of hunched over your desk. Like if you have the book laid flat on your desk and that's going to make such a difference in terms of the ergonomics. So yeah, that's books. And finally, after some 20 years of experimenting with different kinds of learning, what I found works, I think the ultimate for me, is kind of using a combination. So if I'm starting something that's brand-new to me and that I need to learn, I like to take kind of an intro level screencast course just so I can understand the nomenclature. Like each kind of tool that you're going to use has different terminology. And if you start trying to Google and you don't even understand the terms, none of it's going to make sense to you.So I like to take an intro level course just so I understand the very basics, and then I like to actually use it on the job. And there is where I'm going to encounter problems that are more complicated and couldn't have been covered through an intro level course. Then I use a mix of looking up online like StackOverflow blog posts, AI, LLMs, newer things, ChatGPT or whatever, and then I can understand a little bit better the answers to those, or I even know what questions to ask because of the basic course I took. And then if I find I'm still using that at work a lot, I might circle back and then either get a book or take a more advanced level course to get a deeper understanding. What I found for me is if I take a really in-depth course right from the beginning, before I've even tried, I just won't appreciate the nuances because I haven't encountered those problems yet. So I think doing kind of an iteration of some simple introductory material and then some hands-on, try to solve real problems with it and then come back for more learning. If you feel like you still want more in-depth, that's kind of sweet spot for me with learning.ADRIANA: That's awesome. Yeah, that's really great advice and I definitely appreciate you going through all the different options for learning things because I think ultimately learning is such a personal thing, but knowing what options you have out there as a learner so that you can get started, because sometimes it can be very overwhelming, right?You want to learn the thing but you don't know how, and then you have a very particular learning style. So knowing what's out there, that's going to suit your learning style and then playing around with it as well, because it might not be, as you said, one thing that is the answer to all your problems, right? It could be a combination of things, I think is super important. I wanted to go back to a point that you mentioned earlier, which I thought was very interesting where you talked about reactive learning. And I think in our field there is a lot of reactive learning because either it's because you're thrust into a project on X and all of a sudden you're like, oh, I know nothing about X, I must learn this. Or like you are doing something that you know how to do, but then you start refining your code and digging a little bit deeper and you want to make it a bit prettier and then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, I actually don't have the skills to do this. I must learn." And I think that the reactive learning can be kind of exhilarating sometimes, but also very stressful. I was wondering if you could share your thoughts around that. How do you deal with reactive learning, especially when you're under the gun, you've got a deadline and you got to figure out this thing.DANIELA: Yeah. One thing, it helps if you're working in an environment where you have psychological safety, meaning if you can say to your manager something like, look, I haven't done this before, but I'm happy to learn. So I might make a mistake or it's going to take me a little longer than someone who has five years experience in doing this thing, and I'll document as I'm learning. So it will help the next people that have to do this. So, yeah, it definitely helps if you're in an environment where you have the safety to do that because otherwise it is very stressful.ADRIANA: Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, there's nothing worse than working for a manager that's breathing down your neck and then you're feeling this extra pressure to learn, and then all of a sudden something that could have been fun and exciting turns into this complete nightmare scenario and almost seizes up your learning. And that doesn't do anyone any favors. So, yeah, I completely agree. The psychological safety is so important, and it's a recurring theme in tech. I mean, we have to have psychological safety within our teams, right? So that we can be our best selves when we're at work, right? So that we can be as productive as possible, so that we can learn as well as possible and so that we're happy because ultimately we're at work for a big chunk of the day. So it had better be like a relatively happy place, I would hope, right?DANIELA: Yeah, I agree.ADRIANA: Cool. Then the other thing that you brought up, which I was getting, like, flashbacks, the 9-5 courses, which, as you said, it's a great way to take yourself out of the day to day and attend these short little courses with your coworkers. But as you said, everyone's kind of at a different pace. And then when you hit the point when the instructor is talking about something that hasn't sunk in yet, and you're like, can I just hit the pause and rewind button? And they often don't have time for you. And I found that it even brings me right back to my university days being in lectures where I'm like, oh, my God, I am so lost. And then you're asking the professor questions, and after a while this happened to me. After a while I had this one professor, he's like, I'm not taking any more questions. I have to move on. And I'm like, no, I'm lost. Help. It can be so devastating. What do you do in those types of situations when you're trying to keep up, but sometimes the material, like you hit a snag in the material and the comprehension.DANIELA: Yeah. So I haven't done any of those courses like that recently, and that's because of exactly the problem you're describing. So what would happen to me is I would just ask, okay, are we going to get this material? Are we going to get access to the slides or whatever and just hope that I can have time to review it later? There's not a whole lot you can do if the instructor is clearly in a hurry to cover more material. What I learned from experiences with that kind of training is that it's just not the best use of money for me. And those courses can be expensive because once I hit a point where I don't understand it, the rest of the material builds on that. So I won't understand the following either. And that's really why screencasts and books are my preferred. Probably in the last five to eight years or so, I've just been using mostly screencasts and a little bit of books because I find I get way more out of that, like just the ability to pause the instructor anytime I need to.And it will take me a long time to get through. There could be a 1 hour video course, but it could take me weeks to get through it because I'm just doing a little bit at a time and I'm actually hands-on trying the exercises. And if I get an error, then I'll go look that up and understand, okay, what is it I did wrong? Or if there's a certain API they're using, I'll wonder, oh, what are the other flags I can pass to this? What's the other behavior? So I'll do more exploration that there would be no time for in a formal course, like an in classroom kind of course, and then I'll take the time to organize my notes about it. I might publish my notes to GitHub so I can always find them, whatever computer I'm on. Yeah, basically that's why I find the self-paced learning more effective for me because a) I have a high degree of internal motivation, so some people might need the in classroom setting to like, otherwise they'll just never get it done. But that's not the case for me. And just the ability to pause the content is super valuable.ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree. My mind tends to wander. And so if it wanders at the wrong time where the instructor is talking about something crucial and it's a live course, you are screwed. The other thing too, about the live courses is I always find like, they're great for intro materials, and so sometimes you'll come out of it thinking, oh, I get this. And then you go to apply this at work and you're like, oh my God, this was like the simplest use case ever. And of course the use case at work is seldom ever the simplest use case. It's probably like the most difficult, weird ass use case ever. And so it almost feels like it doesn't get into enough depth so that you have the high level understanding.But do you really understand it? Because it doesn't give you necessarily the tools you need to get into those more complex use cases. And then the other thing that you mentioned that I thought was really interesting, which I started doing myself, is the idea of publishing your own notes to GitHub. Because I used to keep a bunch of notes in the text editor on the Mac or whatever notepad on Windows, and my notes were always so freaking messy. And I'm like, man, it would be so nice if I could put these in Markdown and make them searchable. And then I'm like, "Wait...GitHub! What?" So creating Gists or GitHub repos of notes for me when I realized, "Oh, I can do that!" was super useful.DANIELA: Yeah, definitely. It helps you to organize. And Markdown is a very lightweight format, so you don't have to fuss with the WYSIWYG editor and all the bugs that can sometimes be in that markdown is just so simple that it really gets out of your way and just lets you focus on the content that you want to type up. And yeah, I like publishing them. Sometimes I get stars on them from people I don't know or whatever. So I think they definitely get indexed and show up in search results. So maybe if my notes can help out some other people too, then that's great.ADRIANA: Yeah, totally. That's always been my philosophy too. Whenever I learn something, I'm like, I can't be the only person who has struggled with this because I don't know about you, but I always tell people, the thing I hate the most about technical documentation is how it feels like they started out explaining the thing and then partway through the author is like, "This is too much work, I can't deal with it. You figure it out." It's like the thing in the math books. We'll leave the proof, proving the proof up to the reader. And it's like, "No, show me. I don't know how."DANIELA: Yeah, there's definitely value in seeing an example as well. Sometimes with the official docs, they're just showing you one line or they're explaining all the options that you can pass to method call. But if you see it in a working example with explanations of like, okay, this option is changing the behavior because of this. And here's the output from this that can be a lot more helpful to people. So I'll write my notes kind of in that format.ADRIANA: Yeah, I completely agree. And one of my biggest pet peeves with documentation, just building on what you were saying around these sites will show you little snippets of configs. And for me, one of the things that annoys me, one site that always gets me is the HashiCorp site. So, HashiCorp people, if you are listening: pro tip on fixing your docs, include a full example of your stuff. Because having, like I was saying one time I was going through the docs, I thought it was like some configurations for a Nomad job, but it turned out that it was some configuration that applied to the actual Nomad agent configuration. And I'm like, could you have been a little bit clearer? So I think a full-fledged example would have been super helpful. It's the same sort of thing for me. Whenever I write blog posts, I like to have the full example because I always think of like, what if it was me reading this and I'm learning a thing from scratch and I have no idea what's going on? Give me the example. Give me links to the things that you're talking about. That might not be super obvious that you obviously knew about, but me, as a beginner, I have no freaking clue what's going on.DANIELA: Yeah.ADRIANA: Cool. Actually, speaking of Nomad, because I wanted to get your thoughts not on Nomad itself, but you and I both worked at a place where Nomad was the orchestrator, the container orchestrator of choice. And we both found ourselves at this workplace in a position of like, well, I've never used this before, so I was wondering if you could talk about what your process was around learning how to use this tool that you'd never touched before, may not have heard of, or maybe heard of in passing, to be able to ultimately do your job well, sure, yeah.DANIELA: Well, just because I've been doing this job for a long time. In the old days, developers didn't even have access to deploy, especially to production. This used to be really tightly controlled by gatekeepers, like an operations team or change management teams, if anyone remembers things like that. And I wouldn't want to go back to those days for sure. But it is ideal if deployments can be made easy, so that not everyone needs to invest time to become an expert in it. Ideally it should just work with like, oh, you just get merged, your branch to the mainline and it should just deploy. But it is good to have some understanding of how it works. So yeah, I had an experience in one role I was at.We were going through a platform migration. I was a developer working on a Rails application at this job, and we had a MySQL database, a background task runner, some other background services, and a number of cron jobs. And the way deployments were done, it was with a mix of like Zen and some homegrown tooling. There was a JIRA-based change management approach that required manual approvals. And then there was Jenkins. And it took a long time to get a build together. Like a developer had to spend time doing it, and you could only do it on certain days of the week. And the idea was to change everything, to have all the services running on a private cloud built with OpenStack and using HashiCorp tooling.That's what this company had decided to go with, including Terraform, Consul, Vault, and Nomad. And the other goal was to have everything, all the deployments be automated with GitHub Actions. So we were already using GitHub. So it was kind of a natural fit to use GitHub Actions rather than go some third-party CI. So originally the task of doing this platform migration had been assigned to another developer on the team. But shortly after this project started, it turned out actually he was leaving. So my manager asked me if I wanted to take this over. Now, I had not previously done anything like this.I worked with build systems and deployment system, but I'd never set it all up from scratch and kind of defined how it should work. So I was a little nervous, but also kind of excited for the opportunity to learn something new. And that psychological safety I was talking about earlier was really high at this workplace. So I felt really comfortable saying like, yeah, I'd love to learn this. I don't know it now, but I will. What I did to start with, because we were using Nomad, I did take there was this introductory kind of video course on Pluralsight, so I took that it wasn't really so much hands-on, it was more just explaining the concept. So I was kind of able just to write down the definitions of everything at this point, since I hadn't worked with it, I didn't really understand, but at least the words like jobs and scheduling and resources and services and tasks, these kind of terms that are going to come up as soon as you start trying to figure out nomad stuff, at least they sort of became part of my then. So I had to learn about the concepts of Nomad.Like, you configure things with HCL, which is a HashiCorp configuration language. It's kind of their own language, but it looks close enough to a mix of YAML and JSON that I was like, okay, it's a little different, but not too different. Yeah, I see what's going on here. And I had to learn about the jobspec file and how you, that's what HashiCorp uses to configure a job that needs to be scheduled, where scheduling means run a task. Like I have a Rails server that I want to run, so that has to be in a task. And I had to learn about lifecycle methods because it's like, well, before you run the Rails server, there might be database migrations. So how do you run those before. Oh, they have lifecycle hooks.Yes, please run the database migrations before you run the Rails servers. And I had to learn about how you can nest groups and tasks inside the jobs. And we had decided to use Docker. So I had to containerize our applications and then learn how to use the Docker driver and how to configure that, how to tell it, which command to run and how you can also specify resources like cpu and memory usage. So how do you do that? How do you specify health checks? One thing with Nomad is to get resiliency, like auto-restarting failed jobs or doing rolling updates. You can do that. They provide a number of stanzas to do this. And the stanzas are like sections or pieces of configuration that you can define in the job.They have a bunch of them, like update, restart, check, restart, reschedule, migrate. So I had to read up on all of those. And they do have pretty good docs, like at least defining all those terms.ADRIANA: Yeah, totally.DANIELA: And then a process I would run into is I would put what I thought was a fine jobspec together and then I would read up on the Nomad CLI. So, oh, you install it on your laptop and then you do like Nomad job, run or run job. I can't remember the exact syntax right now. And then it submits that job and then you can check on the Nomad, there's a web UI and you can check. And I would frequently get errors. And this is where things got a little dicey. Sometimes I would Google those error messages. This was before the days of LLM.So yeah, you just had to Google or DuckDuckGo the error messages and sometimes nothing would turn up. So another technique I guess for learning or troubleshooting is that if the project's open source and Nomad is, it's written in Go and it's on GitHub. So you can go to the GitHub source and search that error message in their code, find out where from their code it's coming from. And then if, you know, I had used go a little bit before, so I know just enough that I can kind of trace through the code and see, oh, okay, maybe this is the problem, then come back to my jobspec, try something else. So yeah, it was very iterative. I also had to learn how to use Vault. That's another HashiCorp product, and Vault and Nomad talk to each other. So that Vault is for secrets management.And what we needed to do, since we had decided to store our secrets in Vault, you need to generate those as environment variables in our case for the Rails application, like what's the database host and password and other services that we needed like Braintree, API key and all those things were in Vault. So this was another kind of tricky part of Nomad is there's a template stanza, and you can use that to extract things from vault and then generate an Env file and make that available to the container that Nomad is going to be running as your task. And then all those things become available as environment variables to your application. So I had to learn how to do that and learn about the Nomad CLI. Some more learning I had to do was about GitHub Actions. Fortunately, that's pretty well documented as well because once you know how to say, run a nomad task from your laptop, you're like, okay, well, I don't want to have to do this each time there's new code. So I had to automate the process of, okay, so if a PR just got merged and all the tests are passing, then what we want to do is build a Docker container and tag it with the latest Git commit SHA and then make that available through variables to Nomad so Nomad will know, oh, this is the container that I need to pull and run. So putting all those pieces together, one thing that helped me with the GitHub Actions is I actually did a little experiment on my own and built a CI/CD pipeline for my blog, which is a static site built with Gatsby and has some Rails service as a backend.It's not nearly as complex as what I had to do at work, but I found it really helpful to kind of experiment in a low risk way, like just on my own as a side project. And then I actually ended up writing a blog post about how to do that. And then I was able to take some of those things that I had learned about working with GitHub Actions and build our real CI CD pipeline, like for big project for my employer. So yeah, that was really good project. It was kind of the most DevOps I'd done up to that point in my career. And just seeing how everything works under the hood, I set it up with as much automation as possible. I forgot to mention, another kind of automation you would want is sometimes developers want to just deploy a branch to like, we had other environments beside production. We have dev environment, staging. So I set it up that you could make an empty commit on your branch with a special keyword like deploy dev or deploy staging.And with GitHub Actions there is a way you can read the head commit message and say okay, if it's not the mainline, like this is a feature branch, you can get the branch name and you can check that get commit message and say oh, okay, I'm going to deploy this to dev or deploy this to staging. And you use that together with something called environments, which is another feature that GitHub provides. And if you do that, you actually get slack integration for free. So it will post a message to a dedicated Slack channel saying oh, deployment to dev starting or to production. And then if it succeeds or it fails, so you get status information like that without having to monitor nomad directly yourself.ADRIANA: That's awesome.DANIELA: Yeah, so that was the project. A lot of learning, a lot of automation. It was nice because being a developer, I was kind of making it for myself. I knew how tedious the existing deployment process was and I was like, okay, I don't want to do any manual work. I want this to just work and be automated.ADRIANA: Yeah, and I think that's so good because you're basically taking advantage of your knowledge as a developer and saying, okay, well, if I could make this the most optimized thing possible, this is what I would do, which honestly, that's kind of what made me fall in love with DevOps because I'm like, oh my God, why does all this crap have to be manual, right? These are the things I would like to do to make my life easier. So very cool. Awesome. Well, we are coming up on time. I can't believe how quickly the time has passed. There's just so much to talk about in this space of learning and I could be talking and talking and talking about this stuff forever. Before we part ways, is there any piece of advice that you would like to give to our audience as far as picking up a new skill, especially in tech?DANIELA: Yeah, definitely. Try to always be learning and there's so many different ways to do it. As we covered earlier, what I would...advice I would have for people is, just try different ways. If you don't like something, let's say you took one of these MOOCs and that didn't work for you. That's fine. You still learn something. You learn that that style doesn't work for you and try something else. Just keep trying different ways and you're going to find a certain style of learning that works best for you. So keep experimenting and definitely keep learning.ADRIANA: That's awesome. I really like that advice. I think it's really important for us to be better learners is to understand what works for us as learners. So awesome. Thank you so much, Daniela, for geeking out with me today. Now, y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...DANIELA: Peace out and geek out.ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.