The One Where We Geek Out on Giving Talks with Ana Margarita Medina of ServiceNow

Apr 16, 2024

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About our guest:

Ana Margarita Medina is a Sr. Staff Developer Advocate. She speaks on all things SRE, DevOps, and Reliability. She is a self-taught engineer with over 13 years of experience, focusing on cloud infrastructure and reliability. She has been part of the Kubernetes Release Team since v1.25, serves on the Kubernetes Code of Conduct Committee, and is on the GC for CNCF's Keptn project, When time permits, she leads efforts to dispel the stigma surrounding mental health and bring more Black and Latinx folks into tech.

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All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

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Ana and Adriana's talks together:

Transcript:
ADRIANA: Hey, y'all. Welcome to Geeking Out, The podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Ana Margarita Medina, my fellow co-worker of ServiceNow Cloud Observability. Welcome!

ANA: Hello. Pleasure to have to have me here, I guess.

ADRIANA: Always nice to have you on! As my fellow former On-Call Me Maybe podcast co-host.

ANA: Hello to anyone listening from On-Call Me Maybe days. We're happy to be back here and have the dual dynamic duo work wives back.

ADRIANA: That's right. It's like our little reunion. Okay, so where are you calling in from today?

ANA: I'm calling in from Marin, California, just 20 minutes up from San Francisco.

ADRIANA: Awesome. And I'm jealous of, like, your cool mountain views because here in Toronto, it's super flat.

ANA: This is where I wish I could just put up my squirrel photo, like, up.

ADRIANA: I know, right? I know. I see your squirrel posts on Instagram, like, so jealous of that squirrel with the mountains in the background.

ANA: And I have two squirrels, and I'm pretty sure one of them might be pregnant or just a little heavier set of squirrels, so I actually can kind of tell them apart. But I haven't named them. They're just called besties for now.

ADRIANA: Ah, cute, cute. Okay, you gotta let me know when you name them. We have backyard cats, so we've got fat cat, black cat, and fat black cat.

ANA: Creative. Yeah, I just. I feel weird naming squirrels that don't belong to me, but they...I do see them, like, every other day, and I'm feeding them at least once a week, so we do have some relationship like...They actually are getting closer to me, and I don't know, I'm scared of them coming too close too, so.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. I always wonder how, like, similarly behaved squirrels are...to rats. As a rat owner, you know, I look at squirrels with, like, with affection because...except when they eat my bulbs, I get really mad. Like, they were digging up my friggin bulbs last...last fall. Then we're not friends. But I do feel like they've got, like, the rat-like qualities.

ANA: Yeah, I've been staring at them, and I've been starting to look at them a little bit more like rats as I, like, just don't see them on trips now. Like, now they're, like, cohabitating with me. You guys are just rats with gorgeous ass tails. That are more socially acceptable to like. Which is a bummer.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's true. I know, I know. People get really freaked out by the rat tails. Like, I'll tell people, oh, I have rats. And either people will be like, "Oh, my God, that's the best thing ever", or I'll get the..."Ew. Why do you have those street vermin as pets?" And usually, like, my mom, for example, could not stand the fact that we had rats because she grew up in Rio and, you know, like, they had, like, rats in the hallways of their apartment building. So it's like, no, what the hell are you doing? And I...and people are, like, legit freaked out by their tails. And I'm like, aw, but they're so cute.

ANA: I mean, I think it's one thing to have, like, uninvited to your house and making it a pet, which is a little, like, weird because you don't know where it really came from.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's true.

ANA: But when you're grabbing it from, like, a place where you're like, okay, this is a rat that I'm taking home. Like, I think by setting that intent of the way that it comes, it changes it up. But I remember the first time you told me you had rats, and I was like, you're the first person I know that has had a rat as a pet. But the way that you guys treat them as part of your family is adorable, which is. Made me love watching them, like, grow up with your family.

ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Because we've got our rat Instagram, as you do when you have pets, you get an Instagram for your pets.

ANA: So, yeah, I've been considering starting a little TikTok or Instagram for my squirrels because I'm like...I feel like I'm just posting so much content about them, and I'm like, eventually I'm gonna have a little camera outside that you can just see them.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Squirrel cam. That would be the best. Oh, man. Okay. Well, as much as I enjoy talking about rats and squirrels, are you ready for those lightning round questions? ADHD, like, in the house here, right?

ANA: Yes. Squirrel. Literally?

ADRIANA: Yeah, literally. Right? Okay, let's do the lightning round questions. Are you ready?

ANA: Bring it on.

ADRIANA: Okay, let's do it. Okay. Lefty or righty?

ANA: Righty.

ADRIANA: Awesome. iPhone or Android?

ANA: iPhone. Every day.

ADRIANA: Same. Mac, Linux, or Windows?

ANA: Mac. Probably.

ADRIANA: Cool. Favorite programming language?

ANA: I'm gonna go with go Go. Go as a first love, and it a forever has a home. And anytime I like Go code, it just brings joy into my head, like, or my heart. And I'm always like, man, I want to be a Go programmer back again. Like, I miss those days.

ADRIANA: I feel like that would be a fun thing to do, is Go programming. I want to get more into Go. Like, I know enough to be dangerous, but I want to be more dangerous.

ANA: I am not dangerous in Go. I can just get some things done and I can collab with others, but maybe start a project from scratch, but not Go, like heavily advanced. I also haven't been coding much, like, nowadays, so I feel like it's way harder to get into programming mindset sometimes.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's true.

ANA: Reading it is really easy.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's so true. Like, when I'm actually away from programming for a long period of time, I almost convince myself that I don't know how to code anymore, which is ridiculous. And then I go back into it. I'm like, yeah, I'm a fucking badass at coding. Rock on.

ANA: Sometimes I'm like, do I take a Go class just for fun? Like, as part of our professional development? Like, why not? We have time.

ADRIANA: I know, right? Yeah, that'd be fun. Okay, next question. Dev or ops? Or do you have a preference?

ANA: SRE. I think my heart is in reliability and I really do stand for a lot of SRE brings and the cultural changes into an organization. And also being just an engineer that can hop in and out of code while also understanding how infrastructure works, I think that's highly valuable, and I would not change that in my personal career.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. I love that. You know, it makes me think, like, several years ago, I think I told you, like, when I had quit my tech life and decided to be a professional photographer. And then I came back after a year to tech life, and I remember meeting with, like, a former boss and he's like, what do you want to do? Because it was like all of a sudden the whole world was open to me again. I'm like, oh, I can do something different than what I was doing before. And I'm like, I really love the infrastructure side of things, but I also really love development. But at the time, I think it might have been when DevOps was slowly making its way into, like, our vocabulary. Like, it was it...I think it was probably around, but it was just starting to be, become more popular. But like, that was, you know, DevOps, SRE principles. Like, that was effectively what, what I was searching for in my life, but that I, like, I didn't have a name for it, right?

ANA: I wish I had a story like that. Like, it makes sense where you're like, this is what I love doing, but there's no space for me. For me is very much of, like, I stumbled into SRE. Like, I got thrown as an intern in a site reliability engineering team when I had zero systems knowledge, which, every time I tell the story, is always kind of fascinating to laugh at, like, how far my life has come and what were those managers thinking? But I am glad that they saw the potential in me, like, getting a chance to learn. And I did rally up and learn quickly, but there's a lot of fundamental stuff that sometimes I'm like, oh, yeah, I never took those classes. I never watched those YouTube series. Like, I never learned. So sometimes I'm like, do I go back to school at some point to try to fill in the gaps, or do I just do more, like, self paced education? Which...

ANA: that's more my jam. I'm a self-paced learner.

ADRIANA: So eventually with you, yeah, I don't blame you at all. Like, for, you know, like, I do a lot better as a self-paced learner. And also, I don't know about you, but for me, I'm a very just-in-time learner. So I will learn the thing that I need to learn for that moment. And then sometimes it means, like, just tackling at a higher level, and then when I have a chance to breathe or because work necessitates that I dig deeper, then I'll dig deeper, which sometimes means that, you know, I won't necessarily have that initial depth, but I love having the motivation of a project to, like, force me to dig into stuff.

ANA: So you have ADHD?

ADRIANA: I don't know. I did, like, four years of university. Like, I look back on that time, like, how? Like, I don't know.

ANA: I think it was the first time I told a psychiatrist that I've dropped out of college (technically twice) that..they were like, no one has diagnosed you with ADHD? Like, up to this point, like, you've gone like, okay. And I was like, well, I also just have, like, a fear of failure. So that's what drives, like, finishing these courses, like, a value and achievement. So I was like, that's how I got through high school, and that's what was keeping me going with college up until I realized how depressed I was in school and, like, had to be selfish and, like, do what I needed. Like, I knew I could get a job in the industry, but I could stay in school, be miserable, and rack up another $100k in debt.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

ANA: It wasn't what I wanted to do with my life at all.

ADRIANA: Yeah. It's a classic example of, like, being kind to yourself, like, making the decision that is right for you rather than the decision that's, like, right for everybody else that doesn't jive with, like, how you are as a human being.

ANA: And that was even, that was even before I understood mental health to, like, the capacity that I do now or, like, even have a diagnosis. I was just like, I'm miserable. I'm not going to school. Like, I'm not going to class. Like, I'm skipping out. I'm just turning in, like, homework and, yeah, exams are very lecture based, which then is, like, I read the textbook and I missed out on, like, that one thing this professor said on Tuesday because I only watched a Thursday lecture.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I feel, yeah, I feel ya. Well, I, and I mean, it's, it's worked out in your favor, right. Because you made the right decision for you, you're happier as a result, and then you got into, like, you got to do cool work.

ANA: Yes. Yeah, I'm a, I've said it in talks before, but I'm a proud, call it dropout, is what I say sometimes. And people look at me weird, but I say that for me, it's just what worked out for is best. And I also understand that I have a privilege in saying that, like, not everyone can just get up and do that. Like, especially with the way that the tech industry is nowadays where, like, job market is a little harder to get and education does make you stand out. I've been able to still create a network in Silicon Valley without having, like, the pedigree of a lot of Silicon Valley engineers, but a lot of it is because I put myself out there, like, try to be a places where they're at already.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I. And which means you've had the DevRel spirit all along, right? Because you have to put yourself out there as a DevRel.

ANA: It is so weird how, like, every single step that I took in high school and college for, like, learning coding and, like, evangelizing or learning really did lead up to me having a career in developer relations. Because I was always, like, that person that wanted to do the creative part of marketing and meeting the customers where they were at and, like, educating them and having fun with them. But at the same time, like, you couldn't take away my coding projects away from me. Like, those were mine and I wanted to see them cross the finish line. So years, years later, like, ending up in different DevRel functions. I've always been like, oh, this is my bread and butter. Like, understanding community, understanding customers while still having the technical shops to get the job done. Like, yeah, great.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, that's so cool. And, you know, and going back to, like, your earlier comment about, like, you being, like, a college dropout, but, like, in. In our industry, it's so interesting to see how many college dropouts there are and that it's...it...I think as a result, for me, it's, like, super normalized, like, which I think is so great because we all...we all reach our tech journeys from different angles. Like, whether or not you have, like, an engineering degree or comp sci degree. Or you...you took some...a completely different path, right? Like, you have a degree in...in the arts, or...or, like, you're just like, screw it, I'm not doing college. Like, it's not my jam. And I love how all roads lead to tech. Like, they can lead to tech. It's possible. And I think that's what I love about our industry, is that it allows so many people to discover it.

ANA: Yes. And, I mean, I've said it in multiple podcasts. Like, I'm a firm believer in representation matters. And I think, for me, that's one of the reasons that I do say what I say about being a college dropout and being proud of it and being loud about it is similar to, like, my Latina-ness. Like, one, like, you can't miss it for, like, who I am and my loudness sometimes. Not in the stereotypical Latina loudness, more of, like, being loud and proud. But I see it as, like, one. Like, it allows people without financial resources to go to college, um, that we're not able to get the high school, like, high school grades or, like, the SAT scores to be able to get into those Ivy League schools that they wanted to.

We've democratized a lot of the education, so, like, those courses are available online, and it's like, we're opening up that pathway to being, like, whether you're coming from Central America, Africa, Europe, you can still land in the United States and...or just stay wherever you are because remote jobs are so common nowadays and, like, really make a dent. Um, and I think if people don't talk about their own traditional backgrounds, like, because they're scared or, like, fear. Like, sometimes, like, I feel like we're not helping push the envelope forward and saying, like, there is a space for you here. Like, doesn't matter if you are, like us that has ADHD and dropped out because of that. Um, a lot of it is just, like a privilege if you're able to go to college and do the traditional way of getting into an industry. So I love where we're at now, and I do think that the pandemic did help a lot in allowing more companies to be remote or allowing themselves to start looking at talent elsewhere. So I do think that we're making a push forward, but I'm really curious to see how this conversation is a year from now as there's been so many return to offices that have happened. And, like, now the industry is just, like, a little harder to get into with the amount of people looking for a job. So it'll be curious to see how it evolves.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's definitely going to be interesting. And I hope, like, once the market picks up, it'll be, again the case of, like, the remote workers win out, right? Because we've all gotten a taste of what it's like to work remotely. Like, I can't go back to, like, not. I can't ever not be a remote worker again. You know what I mean? Like, I love it. And also, like, as you said, it gave this opportunity for, like, bringing on different people to teams.

Like, when...when I worked at Tucows, I was able to hire guys from Brazil and Turkey onto my team, as well as folks from Canada. So it was, like, so cool to all of a sudden have this whole world open up to me. I didn't have to be restricted to a single geographic area, and so...and I think, like, my experience has always been that the more diverse the team, the better, because the only thing that you have in common is the fact that you're all different. And so you bring, like, you bring so much to the table, right? Like, all these different cool perspectives, cultures, whatever, like, just ways of working. And I absolutely love that.

ANA: And there's a part of it that, like, everyone gets treated as an individual and, like, no one is getting tokenized or anything. It's like, you're here for who you are, and what you bring to the table just makes this team stronger. And everyone also has something to learn about one another, which I think also makes going to job fun.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree. That was a great digression from our lightning round questions. I love it.

ANA: Did we get all the questions?

ADRIANA: No, we didn't. We're about halfway through, but I. This was, like, an awesome digression. Let's see what the other ones bring on. Okay, next question is JSON or YAML?

ANA: I'm a Kubernetes girl, so YAML.

ADRIANA: Rock on. Rock on. Yeah, it's YAML all the way from me. I've mentioned it before on this podcast. Like, my husband is a JSON guy. I'm like...

ANA: I need a clean...

ADRIANA: We don't agree on this.

ANA: Yeah, we're having a fight. We don't agree on JSON.

ADRIANA: I know. It's like, it's like JSON or YAML. And the next one: spaces or tabs?

ANA: I'm a tabs girl.

ADRIANA: Fair enough. Fair enough. I've mentioned it before. I've gone back and forth. Like, tabs make the most sense to me. But, like, I was actually even having a discussion with my dad recently where, like, you can, you can end up finding yourself in a situation where like, you check in your code and your tabs get converted to some, like, weird ass garble and. And so, like, you're better off having, like, spaces instead or at least having something where it converts your tabs to spaces on, on commit because you just don't know how different systems are going to interpret the tabs. So spaces are safer. And I'm like, hmm, interesting.

ANA: So, yeah, yeah, I guess that might be also the reason that I'm choosing tabs is like by using VSCode, it does whatever it needs to do to convert my tabs to spaces as a need for all the products that I'm working on. I've never run into any issues, at least in the last two years. Oh, I actually a lied. I think I ran into one issue and like Kubernetes released team once that I was like, ooh, snap. But that was just also just regular formatting, like, issues that the linter was picking up. But with VSCode just it managing that for me, I think I don't usually have to think about it. I just kind of do tabs and go from there.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Like, I converted my VSCode because I operate in tabs, but I converted my VSCode so that when I hit tab, it turns it into spaces. So, but then the question is, like, is your, is your tab two spaces wide or four spaces wide? And then that's where you can get, like, really hairy with your YAML. Because like, depending on how people set that up in their ide, then all of a sudden, like, it can get. I don't, I don't know if, like, I think I've encountered some YAML linters where it gets mad if it's like the tab size isn't, isn't the same in YAML. Like two. You know, sometimes it's two spaces versus four spaces later on in your YAML. I think. I think I've gotten into that situation where it gets angry. Um, so I always, like, try to make sure that I'm speaking whatever tab language is of that YAML file, which can get confusing sometimes.

ANA: Yeah, it's always fun to figure out. Figure it out later and debugging that you're like, why is this not working? And it's like, oh, wait, no, my tabs are four versus two spaces.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. Good times, good times. I'm still. I'm still. Yeah, a team. YAML, though, in spite of that.

ANA: Yeah, same.

ADRIANA: Okay, two more questions left. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

ANA: I think if you would have asked me five years ago, video would be the answer. But nowadays, like, I think with the most. Especially the most recent change of medications that I've had, like, text is a lot easier, especially for, like, I think it just depends on what it is that I'm trying to consume. Like, I love watching talks for conferences, but when it comes to getting something done, like, I'm so used to just reading tutorials and documentation that that's kind of what I'm gonna prefer.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I feel ya. I know. Like, scroll...scroll down to the ending to see: Does this thing, like, address the thing I want it to?

ANA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Which you don't have that luxury with videos, but, yeah, I do. I do enjoy the...Sorry?

ANA: You can't do command find on videos for the most part.

ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. I know. That's my biggest beef. And I was actually talking to my daughter, Hannah, the other day, like, because we'll sometimes send each other...actually all the time. Send each other the Instagram reels. Right. And it's funny because I was telling her, I'm like, you know, whenever someone sends me an Instagram reel, I cannot be bothered to turn up the volume. I actually have to read. Like, I want to read just the subtitles. And so when someone has a video without the subtitles, I get, I'm like, I'm not gonna watch this.

ANA: That is funny you say that, because I think last week I caught myself doing the same thing where it's like, I watch most of my Instagram and TikToks on mute, and I'm looking for all those captions. Like, my eyes are, like, going for text to watch, but I think that's also part of the AD-, like, at least for me. Like, my ADHD brain. Like, we need subtitles to watch a TV show.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, totally.

ANA: Whereas I need to follow along, because if not, I'm gonna be thinking about lunch. I'm gonna thinking about work. I'm gonna be thinking about the new friend that I just made last week. Like, totally.

ADRIANA: Totally. Yeah. Like, our TV is, like, permanently set to, like, captions on. And...and..and if the captions get, like, turned off, like, on, on Amazon Prime or whatever, which that seems to happen a lot. I'm like, where the hell are the captions? Like, I need...who changed this? Like, who changed this? Yeah. So, yes, I...Yeah, I agree with you. Definitely. Very ADHD. It does. I agree with you. It very much, like, hones in my attention, and then I read faster than, like, you. The dialogue is moving on, and my husband's a slower reader, so he's like, I find it so annoying when you start laughing before they've delivered the line. Like, I can't help it. I'm sorry.

ANA: Oh, my God. I'm also the person that's doing the thing where, like, I watch a lot of TikToks on myself, and sometimes I will listen to them with audio, especially at nighttime. I'll put on headphones and, like, it's part of, like, my calming nighttime routine.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

ANA: But I'll watch every single TikTok on two times the speed. Like, I cannot stand hearing people talk on TikTok most of the time, but I can do 2x, and, like, I consume it, and I wish I could do 3x, honestly, because some of those stories are a little too long. And it's always annoying when I go to someone to show them a TikTok that I watch, and, like, I just press the 2x speed, and they're like, can you stop doing that? And I'm like, but I'm gonna be so annoyed if we watch it a real time. Like, fine.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's funny, because I'm the opposite. Like, I'll be, like, listening to a podcast, and sometimes it'll hit to, like, you know, one and a quarter speed or whatever, and I'm like, what is going on? Why is the person talking, like, way faster? And it bothers me. So I can't. I can't listen to, like, anything on. On, like, that's. That's sped up. It drives me crazy. But a lot of ADHDers I talk to, they're like, yeah, I'll listen to stuff at, like, however many x speed. I'm like, how can you do this?

ANA: I do my audiobooks at 1.8, usually.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Oh, see, that would drive me crazy. I'm like, they're talking. Like, even though I can. I can make out what they're saying. I'm like, it's too fast. I'm like, this is not enjoyable for me.

ANA: Apparently I'm missing that part. Like, I. A lot of the stuff that I consume, like, that is, like, I just want to get it over with. But, like, I do that too with reality TV. There's, like, certain reality TV shows that I love watching reality TV, but I'm like, I just. I don't want to hear you whine, like, regular speed. Like, you're not my best friend that's venting to me. Can you just.

ANA: Can you just do it? And, like, my best friend also, I think, goes through the same thing. Like, she literally just skips forward. Like, she sees a scene that's like, drama or something. It's just like, we're not watching this for the next five minutes and, like, jumps by the next thing, and I'm always like, but we're missing out on, like, really good gossip, you know?

ADRIANA: This kind of reminds me of, like, in the olden days of, like, watching TV with commercials, especially, like, recording stuff on VHS because I'm that old and miss VHS, right? I feel a little nostalgic for that. But I remember, like, we'd record stuff, like, when I was growing up, and then my dad would fast forward through the commercials, and sometimes he'd, like, overshoot it by a bit. And then we're like, can you rewind to, like, where the commercial ended? Like, we're already into the thing. I want to know what happened.

ANA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Anyway, yes, that's my digression. ADHD for the win. Okay, final question. Okay. What is your superpower?

ANA: Probably having the coolest earrings.

ADRIANA: You know, that is a good superpower because it always...

ANA: It's a conversation starter. There's part of me, like, the theme that I'm going with my superpower is, like, being able to be in uncomfortable rooms and, like, strike up a conversation. Like, yeah, it might be very dry at the beginning, but for the most part, I can beat the china and, like, my herbic crap mode. But at the same time, like, my statement earring pieces are always, like, a great conversation starter or not for the, like, I don't know, maybe I've always been lucky about it, but. Cause I'm like. I guess when I think about it, I'm like, it is weird to be talking about earrings at a tech conference, but at the same time, it is part of who I am. Like, I like expressing myself that way. And my favorite thing is, like, fruit earrings.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

ANA: So I think that might be my superpower. And I'm only thinking of that because I just picked up, like, three more fruit earring pieces this past weekend.

ADRIANA: Oh, awesome. And, you know, for the record, I've always loved your earrings. I think my favorite ones of yours are either the Kubernetes ones that you always wear for KubeCon or your fuzzy ball earrings. Those are so great.

ANA: I actually, like, I've been playing around with the idea of starting a jewelry shop, and the reason that I want to start it is that I want to sell, like, pom pom earrings and then, like, figure out what other cute earring pieces I want to do. But, yeah, the fuzzy balls are, like, hard to find sometimes, and they bring me a lot of joy. Like, today I'm wearing papaya, which is just another fun tropical fruit. And, like, I actually have papaya in my fridge right now, which is awesome.

ADRIANA: Papaya always brings me back to my childhood in Brazil because, like, I'd always be eating papaya at my grandma's house. So, like, and I'm the only one at home who likes papaya because, like, you know, my husband didn't grow up in the tropics, and my daughter just thinks papaya looks weird. So it's all me enjoying my papaya, and I love it. And it's like, it's. It's like, it's a comfort fruit.

ANA: Yeah, same. Like it was. We had a tree in my house. Oh, that's. I think at some point that had two papaya trees. So for me, eating papaya is just part of, like, the common diet. Like, it has a lot of fiber.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

ANA: Just delicious fruit. Like, my family also does this thing that we eat it with a little bit of salt, and it brings up the sweetness. My favorite way of doing it is in yogurt bowls. So, like, eating, like, I actually picked it up from one of my trips. I'll do yogurt with papaya, granola, honey, and then passion fruit. Like, cut open a passion fruit and, like, dump the pulp in there, too. That is why that was a common dish. So, like, that became a staple for me.

ADRIANA: That is super cool. I love it. I'm gonna have to try that sometime.

ANA: Yes.

ADRIANA: Cool. Well, we made it through the lightning round questions, which are not so lightning. I keep, you know, I call them lightning round questions, but I'm like, they're not really. That's what I was gonna say. Icebreaker questions, which is totally cool. I'm down for it.

ANA: I was expecting them to be like, rapid fire. Like, if you hear the first response, I just went for it, like, real quick. Like, for me, lightning rounds are like those that you gotta, like, you got five minutes to get through these questions.

ADRIANA: It should have been, but it's like, so much. It could be fun either way, right. You either, like, answer really fast or like, it turns into, like, this conversation piece, right? Like, where you can dive deep into. Into things and, you know, tease out other topics. So we got through the non lightning lightning round questions.

ANA: Awesome.

ADRIANA: Awesome. Well, I know, like, one of the things that we wanted to talk about when we were chatting before the recording started was because we've done some. We've been, we've done some. Some conference talks together and talking about the. The process of putting together talks. Yeah. So just like, getting your thoughts on, like, putting together cfps, writing solo talks versus partner talks. Yeah. So let's dig into that.

ANA: Yeah, I think writing talks has always been fun. And it also comes from, like, I started doing diversity inclusion talks. That's how I got started in public speaking. And then later was like, oh, I should do about technical content that I know. Like, sorry, give about technical specifics that I work with. And it's a very scary process at the beginning, like, thinking about when I started public speaking to now first, like, when you're starting out, you don't necessarily always know, like, where to find conferences to speak at. So, like, trying to put it out there online that you want to give talks. A lot of people will start messaging you and tell you, like, I have this conference or I have this virtual event, I have this webinar.

So a lot of it is about putting yourself out there and letting people know that you are capable of giving talks sometimes, like, for first time speakers. Like, you might need to record the talks yourself. Like, do, like, record yourself posted on YouTube and you'll, like, link out to those. That's probably, like, one of the best tips that I can give anyone that's trying to break into public speaking, just because a lot of folks, like, we don't mind having new speakers come on to our events. But we do need to know that you're capable of staying on topic for 25, 30 minutes and that you're also knowledgeable, that things make sense, and that you're coming well prepared with slides and content to share. But it's a, I think for me, like, it's a very similar process of, like, writing a talk solo or writing one together. I start out by looking at the conference, like, who are the type of people that are going to be there, the personas, understanding what are the themes that are going on for this year, like, are we caring about scaling sustainability? Are we caring about complex issues? Is this just like a local event that's having a need for technical topics? And then I usually start like spinning up a Google Doc, I grab the conference, I make little...little boxes for all the inputs I need to put in a call for papers, and I start throwing ideas.

Like, I want to talk about squirrels, I want to talk about how camping makes me think of preparing to do a big software engineering project. Like having all those requirements and going out and like setting up tents and you set up the scaffolding. So just having these ideas, you start putting them on a document and then I'll start making bullet points on those ideas or like link out to resources that I can leverage and start being like, okay, if I was on the other side of the table, what type of talk would I one want to accept and what type of talk would I see in the schedule that I want to come, come to? And that sometimes, like when I come up with the witty title that's kind of like the selling one, it's like, okay, we're about to have fun with this one. And yeah, I think in order to be a good public speaker, you need to have fun with what you're doing. You need to be able to not only craft that technical piece of content, but also when you're on stage, you need to be personable. People need to be able to like, listen to your voice. Sometimes if they find you funny, like that really helps. Or if you're creative and you can have a really nice creative touch to your slides or finding the right GIFs, movies to really craft that story.

Like, it's really about that storytelling piece, sometimes. It comes about that way. And then from all those bullet points, I start writing out like sentences with those ideas. And sometimes the sentences don't match up to the next one, but that's kind of what starts getting like the thoughts out there and you start putting things in between to make it kind of flow. And you really want to be concise on your abstract that you're submitting. Like, the...I've been on various program committees and track chairs. And it's a lot to have to read to 100 to 300 proposals. And we're just looking for like, what is your experience with this type of technology or content? And why are you the best person to speak at it? What is the subject matter and why is it that this topic is relevant for attendees at this conference.

So being able to answer those things quickly on your abstract really allows for the program committee to know, like, this person can actually speak upon this topic and they, they've put in time and effort into writing this abstract. And then after writing out the abstract is when we can kind of do the outline of, like, once again, I go...I love bullet points when it comes to crafting talks. So put in my little bullet points and it's like, these are the four sections that I want to have in a talk. And then you start kind of, like, flushing in, like, what are the pieces in the abstract that I said I was going to do? Did I mention I was going to do a demo? Like, let me slot some time for that. That's when you kind of start looking at, like, how much time do I have available to deliver this talk? And of course, when this process is done with a collaborator, like, I personally think the talks are just one more engaging, more fun. But you're also learning a lot more because you're having two brains come together to share two different experiences on, like, working with technologies. So, for example, like, we just finished writing our talk for Open Source Summit North America over in Seattle. Yeah, next week. It's already here.

ADRIANA: I guess when this comes out, it'll be like, it'll be the week of. This week! At Open Source Summit!

ANA: Yeah, but, like, this talk was a great example of, like, how collaborating on a talk went really well and it was a lot of fun where it was like, like, all right, we're talking about how make, how we're going to make the developer onboarding process better, and we're going to do that by leveraging platform engineering. But, like, let's trace back on, like, our prior experiences that we've had working at different jobs, understanding how great or terrible that experience was, and, like, how can we take those learnings, show them to attendees, but also really share the story of, like, we want to inspire you to make it better. And, like, let me give you some ideas on doing so. And you kind of get to, like, leverage, like, strengths and weakness, like, early on where you're just like, oh, I'm really good at, like, understanding the onboarding experiences. But when it comes to understanding what goes into a developer image, like, I mean, that's actually a really basic example. But, like, there's certain parts of, like, when you're building out the talk that you can say, like, this, this section is not going to be my strength. Take a first stab at it and I'll come and I'll do the second part at it. But while you do that, I'm going to be working on this other piece of it.

And I felt like with this one, we tagged, we tag-team really well. Like, I got started on slides early on when you were, like, crafting out, like, research of the topics we were going to talk about. And then it was like, all right, like, let me grab that little outline you put together yesterday. I'm going to put it in the new slides and, like, then we can start putting all the pieces together. And then comes the fun part of finding images that go with the content, finalizing the slides. And, like, this is verbose. We only have 20 minutes. We can't talk about this.

And then it's fun when it comes to crunch time. And you kind of need to, like, do the first dry runs and, like, really nail down timing and, like, really allow each other, each other's, like, voice to come out in the slides. Like, as you write out those speakers. Like, this is, this is how I feel about it and this is the slides I'm going to be really passionate about, or these are the ones that I want to say a joke about or, like, share a personal story on. So it's, it's a lot of fun.

ADRIANA: Yeah. And I think you put it so well and there's, like, so many things to unpack there. One of the things that I wanted to talk about because, like, for me, when I got into this DevRel role, I'd done a bit of talking. Like, mostly, like, I think my, my last talks had been in like 2019 for a couple of local Meetups. And so, you know, I wanted to put myself out there more for, for doing more talks. And I'll admit, like, I didn't really know what I was doing when I was submitting CFPs initially. And I, you know, like, your guidance really helped because you've done this for a while. So you knew kind of like the things that are, that make for an enticing CFP.

But it was interesting because getting those first few rejections, like, it really hurt. And at first I'm like, oh, my God, I suck. But you realize, first of all, maybe I might have sucked in the beginning. True. But sometimes it's a case of you don't suck. It's just there's a lot of really good stuff out there. And I think having been on a few program committees, both you and I were on program committees, different program committees for KubeCons, like, understanding, like putting the hat of, like, as someone who's selecting talks. This is what I would think is interesting, and this is what makes other people stand out. I think having...putting that hat on in a lot of ways makes you a better CFP writer because then you're like, oh, yeah, of course, these, these are the things that I'd be looking for, but also, like, being okay with, with the rejection. And I think what you said, like, putting talks out on YouTube, like, if you get rejected, write the talk anyway, whatever. Like, put it out there. Put the ideas out. The other piece of advice that I gave to people is, like, get yourself in Meetups. Like, it is a lower barrier to entry because Meetups are always looking for speakers anyway. So, you know, this is such a great way to just build up your talking chops and then you can, like, publicize it on the socials, right? Like, hey, I spoke at this Meetup. And then the more you put yourself out there and then talk about it, you have to, like, share with the community that you're doing these talks because then it leads to other people, like, singling you out, as you mentioned.

Like, oh, hey, we're having this, like, whatever online event. We're looking for people. Like, I remember you were saying it was Conf42 had reached out to you for. For some stuff early, earlier in the year, and it was because, like, you had, you had your speaking chops. So the more you put yourself out there, the better, right?

ANA: Yeah. Getting a chance to constantly share, like, your expertise in a topic really does get you the next opportunities. It sucks that it's that way, but, like, that little part is a little broken of, like, my head goes back into, like, the person blindness of ADHD to you...like, if you're not constantly seeing someone, you forget about them or you forget about what their expertise in. So they're not top of mind when it comes to opportunities that you have your organization or conference, that you're not necessarily thinking about it, while if that person is constantly putting out, like, I'm still working on this. I'm still talking about this. I'm very knowledgeable in this. I just finished launching this around this topic.

Like, it really helps craft those opportunities. But I do love what you said about Meetups. And, like, we also get to look at the time with the pandemic as, like, it allowed for a lot of online, like, it allowed for various online communities to be created and be fostered. And we used to say, like, start local of, like, when you want to start public speaking, but start online if you don't know, like, there are so many meetups that are happening online. You can always go to meetup.com or go on Twitter and like, look up your city, look up your topics and leverage, leverage, like, those type of resources to find something that you can speak up. And of course, if you're able to, like, putting it out there of like, hey, I'm a new speaker and I would like to talk about OpenTelemetry, reliability, and incident response. Someone out there might be able to, like, reshare that LinkedIn post, a Twitter post and, like, it will land on the right homepage for someone.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. So true. It makes such a difference. And the more you promote yourself, the better. But it's funny because promoting yourself can feel like, I've talked to a couple people about this. Like, it feels weird, right? It's like, look at me. Look at what I'm doing. But it's like, if you don't, no one else is going to unless they're like super fans of your work.

ADRIANA: But they won't become super fans of your work unless you promote yourself. So get out there. Get out there.

ANA: It's funny you say that one because that's actually the one that I feel like my muscle that is not as strong anymore. Like, I think past jobs, it was a little easier since it was a topic that less people were talking about, chaos engineering. And I guess Observability is still not like a topic that everyone's talking about, but there's definitely a little bit more content out there, more folks are talking about it. And I always felt like I struggled promoting myself in the Observability space because it was like, oh, but I'm not one of the best at this space, so, like, let me not share about it. But it's only hurting me at the end of the day on not doing so. So, like, it's still on, like, my to do list to pick up, like, a better way to socialize a lot of the last things that I've done or upcoming work. So it was actually really, it's always been really awesome to see the way that you have it set up with Buffer over, like, scheduling out all your posts for all the work that you're constantly doing. Like, I remember when you had just gotten started in this and I was like, hey, if you want to do it right, this is how you do it. So I'm glad my advice works for folks. I just need to be the one that practices sometimes.

ADRIANA: I feel ya. Yeah, and it's interesting, too. Like, in our line of work, like, part of it is really like working on a personal brand as much as like, we're working on behalf of the company's brand as well, which makes it kind of, it's an interesting job. It's like this duality to our job. And so staying on top of like, promoting your own stuff so that as a result, the work that you're doing for X company gets seen is super important.

ANA: Yeah, it's a weird balance of like, I'm getting paid to grow the company's brand, but at the same time, like, many people won't listen to a company's brand, but they'll listen to employees of that brand.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

ANA: So you kind of have to strike a balance of like, let me not be someone that's just doing sales pitches on stage and at the same time just talk about the technology that empowers some of the solutions or some of the best advantages and benefits. Doing some of this work does and kind of keep that vendor part out of it. And then it's like, if you want to talk to me, find me offstage, find me on the Internet and we can talk shop. But I think there's like, as I see people starting out sometimes, like, that's a part that they struggle with of like, oh, I'm very eager about my job and I want to make sure I put my best foot forward. But at the same time, like, you can still do that by not putting branding and vendor stuff all over the place. Yeah, so it's always interesting to watch that. And yeah, if you're not constantly curating your personal brand, like, it's hard for people to connect with you or like, find, like, back to the point of like continuing to find you relevant or like, keep you in mind, like early on.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, the, it's the slippery slope, what you were saying with our line of work, because like, we're not, we're not part of sales, so. But our job is to get people excited about technology and if it brings people to the, you know, the brand that we're working for, then awesome. But really we want to get people excited for the technology and then to ask the follow up questions. I'm not here...like, that's not my job to sell you on the product. That is my job to like, connect you with cool technology and connect you with other people in the space. And it's almost like, and I think like, we were lucky too...

ADRIANA: And working in OpenTelemetry specifically that we get to work with, we get to work with, quote, unquote frenemies, if you will, because, like, we're working with competitors, but we all have the same ultimate goal of getting people jazzed about OpenTelemetry. And so we all do work that benefits each other, which is very cool. I love it.

ANA: Yeah.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

ANA: It's getting a chance to still have friends even though they're working at competitors is really neat. Whereas, like, just because you and I are not carrying the same logo does not mean that we could not have like, a working relationship together and collaborate on like, making the ecosystem better, making documentation better, making getting started experience better. Like, I guess this is a plug for the get started OpenTelemetry survey that we just created at KubeCon where it's like ServiceNow Cloud Observability, New Relic DevRels, like, came together and it's like, well, we know that getting started in this to pic can be very daunting for some folks and some people need more handholding than others. But what does that look like? We know all vendors are having these questions. Why don't we, as the end user say, come together and put those questions out for our community, but also make these questions kind of specific with the audience in mind of like, what are the DevRels and marketing and sales folks want to know about their OpenTelemetry users? So it's also like, let's actually all work together so that we do make the ecosystem better. And like, it's really nice to be able to do stuff like that of like, we're going to remove our vendor hat, we're going to put our open source, we care about our users, we care about solving very specific problems. And like, we're doing it together and it's going to be better for everyone. It's going to bring the community together.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. That's what I really love. The other thing that I wanted to go back to is talking about the process of crafting a talk and specifically, like, crafting talks with different talk partners. Because like, you know, I've done, I've done a couple of talks with you, and I've done a couple of talks also with Reese, who was one of my first guests on this podcast. And it's so interesting because I did two talks this past KubeCon with Reese. We did a talk for Observability Day, and then went on the...one for the observability track at KubeCon EU. And it's so funny the way that she and I work is so different from the way that you and I work.

And coming hot off the heels of working with Reese, I'm like, I started applying the same principles of working with her to working with you. And I'm like, oh, no, I have to, like, switch my brain off because it is completely different working styles. Because, like, when I worked with Reese, like, our main goal is like, let's write a blog post to organize our thoughts first and get that mostly, you know, locked in before putting together the slides and. But working with you, it's like, we're kind of dipping into both a little bit, right? Like, the blog post was our initial basis, and then I had started working on that on the flight home from KubeCon, and then I ended up scrapping, like, most of what I had written, which is fine. Like, it's the creative process in favor of, like, you know what? Let's have, like, a proper brainstorm session, create an outline. And then we ended up throwing a bunch of stuff on slides and then, oh, we wrote the speaker notes for the slides that goes into the blog post now. Like, it was like, it was...organized chaos.

ANA: Yes. It was a very iterative, and, like, that's the nice thing about online collaboration tools, is that you can kind of dip back and forth on, like, I'm gonna do this part of it and you can work on something else. But I'm very much like, I don't know if it's like, my visual learner aspect of it that, like, my brain is able to analyze the content better when it's spaced out in slides. That's why, like, one of the first things I did was, like, put the outline together. And once I see the outline, I can see like, like, kind of like a sandwich. Once I see, like, the breads, I can start putting condiments and I can start putting in, like, protein and dairy. Um, but if I don't see the bread, I'm not going to think about making a sandwich.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel, yeah, I feel ya. Yeah. And, yeah, that definitely helped us a lot. The, the other thing that I wanted to mention is, like, you know, making talks fun, because for me, as an ADHDer, um, I have a really hard time concentrating on talks. I would actually rather watch a talk, like, on YouTube after the fact, and spend my conference time on the hallway track making connections with people, because it's so much more engaging for me. For me to be able to sit through a talk at a conference, it has to be really engaging for me. I always make it a point of ensuring that whatever talk I'm doing has to have, like, some fun sort of like engagement, whether it's through the slides, whether it's like, the energy that I bring. Fun t-shirts, like our one for Chicago, KubeCon North America in Chicago last November.

Yeah, we made...we did another talk on platform engineering and we made, like, these t-shirts with llamas and we played different personas and our slides had llamas. And it was amazing.

ANA: I'm 100% agree with you. Like, I think, I think about just dry talks that I've been to. And I try to be the complete opposite. Of, like, I don't want a white background with, like, a blue border that just gives me dense and, like, like walls of text here and there, architecture diagrams that have zero animations or color to them. Like, let me strive to be the complete opposite of that. And I think that's what's made me love DevRel. Like, I get to leverage my creative side and I get to, like, leverage my analytical tech chops at the same time. So when it comes to crafting those talks together is like, I want the fun slides. I want there to be GIFs to break up, like, the shop-y content or like, to grab your attention again, because I know you're not going to be paying attention to me for 30 minutes.

You're going to be coming in and out. You're going to check your phone. You're gonna be thinking about lunch. You're gonna be thinking about what the afternoon plans hold. And I still want to continue, like, giving you this expertise that I know and this knowledge, but I also have to understand that we're humans. And, like, the pandemic did that part where, like, our attention spans got a little more tainted and, like, they're just not as sharp as they used to be. So how can I use other things, other fun, creative outlets to bring your attention back? So I know for our talks, we create Dall-e, like, just AI-generated images for our slides. And they're very fun out of context.

ANA: Like, if you follow us on social media, we just shared some otters wearing cowboy hats and bandanas hanging out in the wild west while holding laptops.

ADRIANA: Yep. Yep.

ANA: Wouldn't that make you want to come to a talk? I hope it does.

ADRIANA: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

ANA: It's really about, like, let me show you something visually. Let me catch your attention again. So sometimes, like, it's even making that announcement of, like, if you're not paying attention to my talk, this is that one to one or two minutes where I'm gonna give you a spiel that is, like, literally probably what you came here for. Like, how this implementation worked out or which organizations are doing this, what case studies that we have around it, or let me show you the demo. Like, sometimes demos are like, that part. That is the reason that engineers come to our talks. Like, they really want to see the technical chops and they really want to see things work together. That "Aha!" moment together and then is also, like, giving you more resources to take home, too. Like, I think that's one of my, like, things that I love putting in every single talk where is, like, I didn't craft all this knowledge by myself. Like, I've talked to other people about it. I've, like, read things on it. So let me share that part of my knowledge with you of, like, where to go to to learn more, but also with the understanding that a lot of people just can't pay attention in talks, but they can go read a 20 page paper on a really cool topic and nerd out. So that's also another way that by coming to my talk, I still give you that learning opportunity. Like, it might not be my talk that gives you, gets you to learn, but that survey might get you to learn something new.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. It becomes the gateway to, you know, to further knowledge. That's awesome. Well, we are coming up on time. I could talk about this forever and ever and ever. I will say, though, if you're, if you're in Seattle the week of the 14th, 15th, 14th, 14th, 15th. Yeah. If you're in Seattle that week and are at Open Source Summit, come see us. Come see our talk. We have an otter theme for our slides this time around. We had lots of fun making them. I can't tell you how many times I laughed at the images that you generated with your prompts. It was so much fun. So much fun. I will never not use Dall-e for slides again.

ANA: Every once in a while, I consider prompt...I consider putting prompt engineer on my LinkedIn title just for funsies.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God. I feel like. I feel like that could be legit. That's awesome. Before we part ways, do you have any final words of wisdom that you would like to share with our audience?

ANA: Final words of wisdom? I think part of it is connect with other people. Mental health is something that really matters to me. I like the idea of people connecting with one another. Like, be on social media, connect with someone else that you don't know. Find a topic of interest. I see as, like, the loneliness crisis just getting worse and we need to lean on one another to make it out in this world and leave it better than we found it. So getting a chance to reach out to someone new, making you a friend. Like, whether it's in person, at an event, or whether it's online. Like, I used to always say, like, find me on Twitter and I'll connect you with someone new. But Twitter is not necessarily a home anymore. But, like, yeah, you can find me. Like, you can find me on all social still and, like, ask me to introduce you to someone in certain technologies or certain communities or point you to a Slack channel that might be a community closer to you. Like, I have a few that are, like, specific to Latinos in tech. There's some that are on mental health. There's some that are about certain technologies. And I think more than ever, we still need to foster those connections for, one, learning something new, two, to network, and three, to just stay connected as humanity.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. I'm totally down for that. And I can vouch for...for Ana's connections because you're the one who originally connected me with Abby Bangser. And then she's, like, connected me with all sorts of other people. So it works.

ANA: I think so many. I think a few of my connections have ended up on the podcast, too. So it's always...

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's awesome. That's right. Yeah. Tim Banks as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome, Hazel. Yeah, so that's what I was thinking.

ANA: I was like, there's Hazel.

ADRIANA: So there you go. Connections do matter. So, yeah, that's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Ana, for geeking out with me today, y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

ANA: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who, incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento .me /geekingout.