The rags to riches success story is everywhere - usually with a side of trauma somewhere: the homeless child with mental health issues overcomes all the odds to win an Ivy league scholarship. After graduation, they continue to “rise above” their past by joining the world’s most famous tech company. If they can do it, anyone can.    It’s a story we hear over and over again. But what if those transformation stories actually hide some deeply screwed up practices? Author Emi Nietfeld joins us to explore our beliefs about resilience, and our weird fascination with stories of triumph.   In this episode we cover:    The main problem with “survival” memoirs Who gets to survive? Who gets to thrive? Whose stories are believed?  The underbelly of scholarship programs (hint: the more tragic your story, the more money you get) why one successful person can undermine everyone else’s chances of being seen and believed How the practice of motivational interviewing could change the course of mental healthcare Content note: this episode includes discussion of eating disorders, self harm, and hospitalization Notable quotes:  “As a culture, we believe in this fantasy that anything bad can be made good, that no matter what we lose, what tragedies happen to us, we can - through our sheer force of will - twist them into something better. And that feels awful if you're the person who's lost something.” - Emi Nietfeld   About our guest: Emi Nietfeld is the author of Acceptance, a memoir of survival that explores our beliefs about resilience, and our weird fascination with stories of triumph. Her essays have appeared in New York Times, Longreads, Vice, and Boulevard, they’ve been cited in The Best American Essays of 2021 and have been nominated for the Pushcart Prize.    Find her at eminietfeld.com Additional resources The basics of motivational interviewing  Get in touch: Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be FixedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dog search team expert Cat Warren’s current work focuses on historical research, specifically: searching for abandoned or hidden burial grounds. This fascinating branch of search work combines history, racism, grief, and social reckoning.    In this episode we cover:  How dogs let us talk about historical acts of violence in ways that seem impossible otherwise Are there bones in the highway you’re driving? Probably yes.  Where to even start looking for burial grounds someone wanted to keep hidden How Cat’s atheism intersects with searching for remains Cat’s version of hope: is it ugly, or is it beautiful? Hard to say.      About our guest:   Cat Warren is the New York Times bestselling author of What the Dog Knows: Scent, Science, and the Amazing Ways Dogs Perceive the World. The book tells the story of learning to work with her impossible young shepherd as a cadaver dog to find the missing and dead. It won critical acclaim and was long listed for the PEN/E.O. Wilson Literary Science Writing Award. She taught science writing, journalism, and creative nonfiction at North Carolina State University for 26 years before retiring in 2021. Additional resources All of Cat’s information is at her website  NY Times article on cadaver dogs and archaeology  African American burial grounds & cadaver dogs   Get in touch:   Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You’ve probably seen it - dramatizations of search dogs, running through the woods, noses to the ground, looking for a missing person, or for human remains. We’ve got a weird fascination with this stuff in the media, but when it’s real life - well, if it’s your loved one those search dogs are looking for, it’s a whole different story. What’s it like being the human half of a cadaver search dog team? Expert Cat Warren lays it all out this week.    In this episode we cover:    What’s it really like to work a crime scene with your dog? Is it cool or creepy? How do we navigate fascination and respect when it comes to other peoples’ trauma? Why people were mad that Cat’s book was more about the dog than it was a “true crime” exposé The difference between resolution and closure How do first responders and search teams deal with so many unhappy endings and unanswered questions? Notable quotes:  “True crime podcasts keep us at a safe distance. They allow us to enter into the sphere of death, but keep us far enough away from it that we don't need to experience any feeling of grief. Crime survivors don’t have that luxury.” - Megan Devine   About our guest: Cat Warren is the New York Times bestselling author of What the Dog Knows: Scent, Science, and the Amazing Ways Dogs Perceive the World. The book tells the story of learning to work with her impossible young shepherd as a cadaver dog to find the missing and dead. It won critical acclaim and was long listed for the PEN/E.O. Wilson Literary Science Writing Award. She taught science writing, journalism, and creative nonfiction at North Carolina State University for 26 years before retiring in 2021. Additional resources   All of Cat’s information is at her website  NY Times article on cadaver dogs and archaeology  African American burial grounds & cadaver dogs   The Collective for Radical Death Studies   Get in touch: Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be FixedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you’ve been worried about bad things happening to the people you love, is it possible that an actual bad thing might bring temporary relief? Obviously, the answer is “no not really,” but in this conversation with author Mary Laura Philpott, we explore the weird complexity of the anxious (and loving) mind, and the hoops we jump through to ensure our own survival. Mary Laura’s latest book, Bomb Shelter, traces her son’s epilepsy - from being woken up early one morning to the sounds of what would turn out to be her son’s first seizure - out into the anxiety many of us hold for those we love, from the people in our care to the wider world, to pretty much everything ever. As always, we close with our guest’s current working version of hope. Don’t miss it.    Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.    In this episode we cover:  Tools for writing about difficult things, including distance, numbness, and turning yourself into a somewhat fictional character Why airports should have crying lounges The anxiety & relative effectiveness of protecting everyone you love from harm Mary Laura’s version of hope, applicable even while the world melts and her kids leave home About our guest: Mary Laura Philpott, nationally bestselling author of I Miss You When I Blink and Bomb Shelter: Love, Time, and Other Explosives, writes about the overlap of the absurd and the profound in everyday life. Her writing has been featured by The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic, among many other publications. Find her books (print and audio) wherever you find books.    Find her at  https://marylauraphilpott.com, on TW @MaryLauraPh, and on IG @MaryLauraPhilpott   Additional resources:  Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.    After a life-altering loss, feeling anxious about the possibility of more loss is #PerfectlyNormalGrief.   Want to start writing the story of your life (and your grief)? Join the next open session of the Writing Your Grief community.    Megan’s first book, It’s OK that You’re Not OK, has an entire section devoted to discussing anxiety, including tools to manage your feelings when the worst has already happened.  Get in touch: Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be FixedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Look, life is weird and difficult. Social situations are hard to navigate. The world is too loud or too scratchy. You’re too loud or too bright or just “too much.” And then, a new diagnosis helps you understand all that friction in a new way. It doesn’t magically make things better, but it does make things…. Different.    On today’s Here After with Megan Devine, Lauren Ober joins us to talk about The Loudest Girl in the World and her journey to understand what it means to be on the autism spectrum, living life as a newly diagnosed autistic person.  In this episode we cover:    How childhood experiences of shame and “othering” create lifelong ripples Why personality is a work in progress Can our definitions of “acceptable” grief expand to include a lot more of everyday life?  What it means to be on the autism spectrum and how to live life as a newly diagnosed autistic person The accidental activist: how just living your life in full view helps people you don’t even know Grief is always in the room. Want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.    Notable quotes:    “It's like there's a particular type of thing you're allowed to grieve, like your cat dying, but you're not allowed to grieve the restaurant closing, a place that was filled with joy and delight. But you think - that’s stupid. Why are you crying over that? My working definition of grief is just too narrow.” - Lauren Ober   “When we make something visible, it allows other people to be curious about it, and to try it on for themselves. That to me is a really hopeful thing.” - Megan Devine Guest bio:    Lauren Ober is a podcast host and producer, currently in production on a show about Koko the signing gorilla. Her latest podcast, The Loudest Girl in the World, is the story of Lauren's journey to understand what it means to be on the autism spectrum and how to live life as a newly diagnosed autistic person.    Lauren hosted Spectacular Failures, one of TIME magazine's top 10 podcasts of 2019, and NPR's The Big Listen, a nationally distributed broadcast about podcasts. She’s an award-winning public radio reporter, producing stories for outlets like NPR, 99% Invisible, and Criminal. Additional resources: Listen to Lauren’s podcast The Loudest Girl in the World Alice Wong’s Disability Visibility Project Follow Lauren on Twitter @OberandOut         Get in touch:   Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be FixedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you look at social media with its reliance on meme-based psychology, you’d think that the Buddhist approach to life is to not let things get to you - that the true spiritual path helps you rise above such limited, unenlightened human feelings like grief, greed, and resentment. Zen teacher Koshin Paley Ellison is here to tell you that your suffering deserves your attention.  In this episode we cover:    How an experience of targeted violence shaped Koshin’s childhood, and what it’s taught him about the suffering of others Why it’s healthier to spend time in the “life is suffering” part of the 4 Noble Truths, rather than rushing to the other 3 as solutions How to work with the pain and the suffering in your own life, so that it doesn't fester and cause more harm Why going to the furniture store looking for milk is only going to lead to disappointment Koshin’s new book, Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion   Notable quotes:  “That's why those very powerful giants of greed and resentment and delusion are so important. Tell me about how those things affect you, and I’ll tell you how they affect "Only then can we get really real.” - Koshin Paley Ellison   “You'll never be free until you can be still with your pain.” - Koshin Paley Ellison   “We're in such a habit of managing the feelings instead of naming the experience.” - Megan Devine About our guest:   Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, and Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co-founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, with his husband Chodo Robert Campbell, to transform the culture of care through contemplative practice by meeting illness, aging, and death with compassion and wisdom. Koshin’s work has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, and CBS Sunday Morning among other media outlets. His newest book is Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. Additional resources: Chodo and Koshin joined us in season one of Here After. Listen to that episode here.    Learn about the New York Zen Center’s contemplative care program at zencare.org   Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.  Get in touch: Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.  Follow Here After with Megan Devine on TikTok @hereafterpod    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be FixedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On the outside, veteran Jason Kander had everything going for him: successful political career, lovely family, the respect of his peers. But on the inside, he was struggling: nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts were constant companions. Jason joins us to talk about his new book, Invisible Storm, and what it really takes to go from post traumatic stress to post traumatic growth. (don’t let that “post traumatic growth” turn you away from this episode! There are no shortcuts to happiness here.)    In this episode we cover:    Why most returning vets believe that getting help is great - for other people.  The concept of “stolen valor” and how it relates to treatment options for PTSD How Jason used shame as a way to give himself the illusion of control  A really helpful golf club analogy to describe the difference between deployment and civilian life What “redemptive heroism” is, and why there’s a much better way to manage PTSD Every trauma is valid trauma: avoiding the temptation of comparing emotional injury How saying “wow that was really f*cked up” makes things better - for everyone Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.    Notable quotes:  “Therapy for me was a lot like going to graduate school, but it was just a graduate program in my brain.” - Jason Kander   About our guest: Jason Kander joined the Army National Guard in 2005 after getting a law degree at Georgetown University. He deployed in 2006 to Afghanistan, where his mission was to assess the corruption levels of former Afghan warlords and government leaders.   Ten years after serving in Afghanistan, Jason Kander was a rising star in the Democratic Party, exploring a presidential run. But outside of the political spotlight, he was racked by nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts. His new book, Invisible Storm, shares the story of his experience with PTSD, and his hopes for anyone who’s survived trauma.  Jason is the president of the Veterans Community Project, a national nonprofit organization, and the host of Majority 54, one of the nation's most popular political podcasts.  Additional resources   Learn about the Veterans Community Project   Follow Jason Kander on social media @jasonkander The book Jason mentioned is Tribe by Sebastian Junger Get in touch:   Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be FixedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What’s happening in Iran and why are you hearing about it so much?  This week on Here After, Iranian-American actor & writer Nazanin Nour on the protests unfolding in Iran, grief in the Iranian global community, and how the whole world has the power to fight for women, life, and freedom. This episode is so special - I need you to listen.    In this episode we cover:  What’s happening in Iran and why the whole world is watching Why violence thrives in secrecy (no matter where it’s happening) Grief and guilt in the Iranian diaspora: what it’s like having friends and family members inside Iran (including how well meaning friends don’t quite get it) The power of solidarity - how being SEEN gives you the courage to continue fighting The ways mourning and protest are woven together through Persian culture Tangible actions you can take to support the people of Iran   Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.    Notable quotes:  “Outrage is an act of grief.” - Nazanin Nour“The guilt I feel for leaving unscathed thanks to the country of my birth has never left me.” - Nazanin Nour “Hope is watching the Iranian people on the ground in their fight - how they're not backing down and they're not giving up - that gives me hope and strength to continue for them. Because if they're actually risking their lives, literally risking their lives, the least I can do is continue to be loud for them from over here.” - Nazanin Nour About our guest: Nazanin Nour is an Iranian American actress, model and writer. She’s appeared on several television films and shows, including Madam Secretary, and Persia's Got Talent. She’s one of several Irani-Americans in the public eye making sure that the world knows what’s happening in Iran right now: widespread protests following the murder of Mahsa Amini, and the violence that continues against the Irani people by the dictatorship. Follow her on IG @iamnazaninnour  Additional resources   If you need even more encouragement to join this fight, watch this short video from Cee-Roo on IG.    Follow Nazanin Nour and other Iranians on social media, and share news from the Iranian protests far and wide. Keep the pressure up. Sign the Amnesty International Petition to call on states to set up an independent UN mechanism now to investigate and ensure accountability for the most serious crimes under international law in Iran.   Participate in the global campaign to stand with the women of Iran by sending a lock of hair to your elected officials. Read more about the #HairForFreedom campaign in this article.    The passage I read comes from Nazanin’s article in the French publication Les Glorieuses. Read it here.   Get in touch:   Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your comments or thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Nobody likes to talk about pet loss… but everybody wants to talk about pet loss. What a difficult scenario that is! Veterinary oncologist Dr. Renee Alsarraf joins us to talk about grief, professionalism, and the importance of being human - on the job and off.    In this episode we cover:    The whole truth about loving - and losing - your pets The terrible advice Dr. Renee Alsarraf’s grad school teacher gave her (and why she refused to listen)  Why veterinarians and other professionals should really NOT check their human emotions at the door When it’s time to welcome a new love into your life (human or otherwise) How Dr. Alsarraf’s experience with veterinary oncology did (and didn’t) prepare her for her own cancer diagnosis Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.  Notable quotes:  “I think we tend to see our pets - especially when they're ailing - more like our little babies, and so we want to protect them. That's our innate role. and yet we can't protect them from the inevitable. That's really hard.” - Dr. Renee Alsarraf   “You can't push emotions down and expect them to not pop back up in other places.” - Megan Devine   About our guest:  Dr. Renee Alsarraf is a veterinary oncologist, lecturer, and philanthropist. Her new book Sit Stay Heal is a moving and uplifting memoir of an esteemed veterinary oncologist fighting to save her four-legged patients while making sense of her own unexpected cancer diagnosis.   Find Dr. Alsarraf on IG @reneealsarraf  and read more about her book at sitstayhealbook.com Additional resources: Grief is everywhere. Want to become a more grief-informed therapist or provider? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.  Get in touch: Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be FixedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

NYT best-selling author Emily X.R. Pan had a problem: she wanted to write about her grandmother’s complex and fascinating life in 1920s Taiwan, but the task seemed too overwhelming. A deeply personal experience of grief gave her new insight into not only the novel-in-progress, but her family’s experience of loss as it was passed down through her family line. The novel became The Astonishing Color of After, a glorious, complex story of love, family, magic, and loss.    Emily joins us to talk about writing grief into your stories, and how writing itself is a way to claim (or reclaim) our human right to feel all of our feelings, even the ones our histories taught us to suppress.    In this episode we cover:  How a relative’s death changed early drafts of Emily’s book  The ways our parents and grandparents' views of death and grief impact our own ability to feel a whole range of emotions Making books into safe spaces to explore the complexities of being human Emily’s tips for writing “believable” grieving characters    If you’re a writer of any kind and you’d like to include grief in your work, listen carefully to this conversation.  Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link. Notable quotes:    "I'm very annoyed by positive vibes." - Emily X.R. Pan   About our guest:   Emily X.R. Pan is the New York Times and National Indie bestselling author of THE ASTONISHING COLOR OF AFTER, named by TIME Magazine as one of the 100 Best YA Books of All Time. Her recent novel, AN ARROW TO THE MOON, is available now, wherever you get your books. Visit Emily online at exrpan.com, and find her on Twitter and Instagram: @exrpan Additional resources   Those of us living inside grief know: there is nothing to be fixed. Here’s the thing - telling the truth about your grief is one of the kindest things you can do for yourself. Being allowed to tell the whole truth makes things better, even when they can’t be made right. The Writing Your Grief e-course and online community is a safe, supportive space to write about your grief. The next 30-day session starts soon. Learn all about it here. Get in touch:   Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.    Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co   For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co   For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT   Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.