Gospel Tangents Podcast

Have you studied, Joseph Smith's plural marriage proposals? Dr Christopher Smith finds many commonalities between Emma's marriage proposal and other wives of Joseph Smith, including the secrecy of the proposal. What else is there in these plural marriage proposals? Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/NJcIW2C_9xM Don’t miss our other conversations on Secret Covenants! https://gospeltangents.com/books/secret-covenants/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Was Joseph Smith's sealing to Fanny Alger and adoptive, rather than marriage sealing? Dr Christopher Smith and Don Bradley have come up with an amazing thesis that re-writes the polygamy origin story. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/thDum2jOD8U Don’t miss our other conversations on Secret Covenants! https://gospeltangents.com/books/secret-covenants/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

In the final part of our conversation with Dr Michael Austin, Provost at Snow College and author of "Testimony of 2 Nations," we'll discuss Mormon Studies groups, including the history of Dialogue, MHA, JWHA, Sunstone, and other Mormon Studies organizations. We'll also discuss the history of LDS Colleges in Utah. Check out our conversation by signing up to our free newsletter at gospeltangents.com/newsletter or sign up at Patreon to hear the entire interview. https://youtu.be/0RzG2N-MPvg Don’t miss our other conversations with Michael: https://gospeltangents.com/people/michael-austin transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved

Should BYU be renamed Over Slavery? Many argue that BYU should be renamed since slavery was legalized in Utah? Bishop Abraham Smoot also owned slaves and his name is on the Smoot Administration Building. What do BYU alumni Paul Reeve & Christopher Rich think of this proposal? https://youtu.be/L3pHOIv6DIs Don’t miss our other conversations with Paul Reeve! https://gospeltangents.com/people/paul-reeve/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. What Do Critics Say? GT: Okay. Well, it’s only been out what, four days right now? Paul:  People are starting to actually get their copies, yes. So, I know there’s a peer review process because clearly, the public hasn’t had a chance to push back on you guys. But have you guys gotten any pushback on your book that you can share? Paul:  Well, I mean, there’s some skepticism on the interpretation of, is An Act in Relation to Service a form of gradual emancipation. Right? GT: Okay. Paul:  Oxford has anonymous peer reviewers. Right? And so, I think we had really good peer reviewers who pressed us on some of the claims that we made. And I think we refined our arguments as a result. so I think what is published is more refined than the original draft. And we simply acknowledge they removed 18 words that we believe would’ve passed on the condition of servitude to the next generation, but they don’t replace those 18 words with “therefore you can’t pass on the condition to the next generation,” positive language that would have said, “we’re not passing on the condition.” So it’s left up to us to infer that their intent was that the condition not pass on to the next generation. We actually offer readers a scan of the original draft of the bill where they cross out those 18 words. And then we provide our own transcript. right? So you can read for yourself the original version of the bill with those 18 words included and then with those 18 words removed. What do you think the intent was? If you take out the clause that would’ve passed on the condition to the next generation, we think that means the intent of lawmakers was that it not pass on, and therefore, that creates a gradual form of emancipation. But that’s open for interpretation. right? GT: Well. Paul:  They deliberately—well, we don’t know about deliberately. They draft the bill ambiguously and we don’t know if that’s because they’re just not great lawmakers, or if they’re doing it deliberately. GT: Well, and the question is, are we aware of any children born between say, 1852 and 1862 that slavery was passed onto them? Are you aware of that? Christopher: So, we tried to look at that, and there’s just not a whole lot of evidence. So, any of the children who were actually born in Utah, by 1862, if we use that as the basic end date, still would have been minors. So, they still would have been living with their parents in the homes of their masters. And we do find evidence that they are there. There is some evidence that some children were sold. Now, those children weren’t born in Utah. So, you can make the argument that the law didn’t cover them, but it was a very small number of children. By the 1860s, I think it was roughly 10. So, we try to make a case of, based on the language of the law, this is what should have happened, but we don’t know for sure what would have happened in practice had the law continued on for another 10, or 15, or 20 years. GT:  So it’s just too short of a timeframe. Paul: Correct. GT: Okay. Paul:  And we make the point that if you are a child, you arrive in Utah territory, you can die enslaved in Utah territory. Right? This only applied to those who would be born in Utah territory after arrival. GT: Right. Paul:  That’s how the law is written. So, if you’re born in 1852, you’re only 10 years old by 1862. You’re still living with your parents.

Was Brigham Young wrong about the priesthood/temple ban? I'll ask Dr Paul Reeve & Christopher Rich, and we'll discuss the showdown between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young over whether blacks are guilty of the Curse of Cain and Curse of Ham. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/iofIambKwQI Don’t miss our other conversations with Paul Reeve! https://gospeltangents.com/people/paul-reeve/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. Understanding Curse of Cain GT: Okay. Well, let’s dive into the 1852 legislative session when An Act in Relation to Service was passed. [There was] a big debate between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young over whether this should be passed. And it’s also where Brigham Young articulates a race-based ban for priesthood. So, I know we’ve talked about this before, Paul, but remind people that didn’t see our first interview from eight years ago, what’s the debate between Orson and Brigham? Paul:  Well, so they’re debating this Act in Relation to Service and Orson Pratt is once again, if it’s not free, it’s slavery. He’s calling it this abominable slavery. He proposes that the bill be rejected outright and gives a really strident anti-slavery speech. But theologically, there’s a mixture of religion and politics in this legislative session. And Brigham Young has created, and will create in a couple of his speeches, a cursed racial identity for people of Black African descent. He will suggest that they are cursed descendants of Cain. Cain killed his brother Abel, Brigham Young says, and because he kills Abel, all of Abel’s descendants, who he presumes to be white people, will need to receive the priesthood before any of Cain’s descendants can be allowed to receive the priesthood, and he presumes them to be people of Black African descent. GT: Were they going to die out at sometime? Paul:  Well, right. But those are the terms that he creates. Right? GT: I mean, it’s a strange thing to say, you know? I mean, we’re going back to Adam and Eve, basically. These kids are going to have descendants forever, Black and white, right? So how are all the white people going to get the priesthood before the Black people do? Paul:  Right. And did that finally happen in June of 1978? GT:  So there’s no more descendants of Cain anymore? Paul:  Well, Brigham Young is borrowing from the broader Judeo-Christian tradition, this story, this notion that black skin comes from the Curse of Cain. It’s the mark that God places upon Cain and therefore his descendants. That predates the founding of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by several hundred years. Then it gets mixed with the curse of Ham/Canaan, which is later, also in the Book of Genesis. Noah is found naked and drunk in his tent. Ham supposedly makes fun of him, and then the, the curse is, servant of servants you will be to Ham’s son Canaan. Right? Servant of servants you will be to other of Noah’s children. And that is overtly stretched and used to justify enslavement of people of Black African descent because the standard interpretation is that descendants of Cain, Ham, Canaan are people of Black African descent. Brigham Young comes into Mormonism with that idea. In 1852, he then gives it theological weight in his faith. Right? So he says that’s justification for barring people of Black African descent from priesthood ordination. Paul:  So he is defining people of Black African descent as inherently guilty, and Orson Pratt will describe them as innocent. Shall we take the innocent African? So, you have two theological visions of who people of Black African descent are. And in 1856, Orson Pratt will also reject Brigham Young’s notion that they are descendants of Cain. He says we have no proof that Africans are descendants of Cain. It’s the only justification Brigham Young ever gives for the racial restriction,

It's time to bust some slavery myths about Utah Slavery. Dr Paul Reeve & Christopher Rich have written a book called "This Abominable Slavery." Was Brigham Young making Utah a slave state or a free state? Newly discovered documents from the 1850s are causing us to re-evaluate past narratives. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/mBMGRPn1P_8 Don’t miss our other conversations with Paul Reeve! https://gospeltangents.com/people/paul-reeve/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.   Meet Paul & Chris GT: Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have two amazing historians. Chris, you're new to the show. Tell us who you are and you're almost a doctor now. Right? Give us your background a little bit. Christopher: Almost. I'm a PhD candidate right now, actually a student of Paul's. In a previous life, well, I still am an attorney. I was active duty military for 11 years in the Army JAG Corps. GT: Oh, wow. Christopher:  I came out of there, switched over to the reserve side and started going down the history track here at the University of Utah. GT: Wow. Christopher: So we've been working with Paul for little over 10 years now on this book. GT: But can you handle the truth? Christopher: I actually had somebody ask me that one time during a deposition. It was really [strange,] and yes, yes, I can. GT: Do you feel like Tom Cruise cross examining Jack Nicholson?[1] Christopher: There have been some moments like that where I've gone away afterwards and said, yeah. I could be in a movie. GT: Well, great. Well, Paul, could you go ahead and reintroduce yourself. You're a three-time guest here on Gospel Tangents. Paul:  Yeah. I’m Paul Reeve. I'm currently chair of the history department at the University of Utah and Simmons Chair of Mormon Studies. GT: Yeah. And tell us about the book you two as well as your third co-author, which we couldn't get here unfortunately. Tell us about your new book that just released. Paul:  This Abominable Slavery. The title is a quote from Orson Pratt. GT: Go ahead and show it. Paul:  It is based upon a variety of newly transcribed speeches from the 1852 Legislative Session and the 1856 Utah Constitutional Convention that were captured in Pitman Shorthand and LaJean transcribed them. GT: LaJean Carruth. Paul:  LaJean Carruth. She's a co-author on the book. The book wouldn't exist without her transcriptions. We have a new source base that no prior scholars had access to. And so, we tell the story of Utah's answer to pressing national questions, can human beings be held as slavery? GT: And at one time the answer was yes. Well, very good. So, I think I told Paul this earlier, but for my audience, some of you may not know that Paul was my either second or third guest here on Gospel Tangents.[2] And I remember at the beginning of the interview, I said, so are you working on any other books? And you were working on this book. So I think that was eight years ago. I think, I can't remember. But , so I've been waiting for eight years for this book, so I know you guys have been working hard on it, but I'm very excited that this book's out finally. Paul:  Yeah, we are too. It's taken a long time, but happy that it's finally here. GT: All right. Well, great. Chris, I we got to get  a Mormon myth out of the way right off the bat. I remember, when was MHA in San Antonio? Was that seven years ago? Christopher: 2012, I believe. GT: Oh my goodness. Was it that long ago? That's 12 years. Christopher: Yeah. GT: Oh, wow. You two, I don't remember who else, but I know you two were giving a presentation and there's a well-known apostle, Charles Rich, who held slaves. Are you an apologist for Charles Rich? Christopher: You had mentioned this, I believe, and a few times when I have been discussing our research,

Rick Gets Feisty with some anti-vaxxers! I'm going to answer questions & give out a free book, "Writing Mormon History," edited by Joe Geisner. https://youtube.com/live/6MV4ULK-qTM

Where are the lost diaries of 2 of Modern Mormonism's most famous authors: Juanita Brooks & Michael Quinn? Joe Geisner tells us. Joe also gives a sneak peek to Writing Mormon History Volume 2. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/WoF9w0gZUpo Don’t miss our other conversations with Joe! https://gospeltangents.com/people/joe-geisner/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Joe Geisner discusses the lost Orson & Parley Pratt diaries and we'll dive deep into the Parley Pratt murder, just prior to the Mountain Meadows Massacre. What other important documents are lost to history? Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/SPDD1UUjdlI Don’t miss our other conversations with Joe! https://gospeltangents.com/people/joe-geisner/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Joe Geisner gave a presentation at Sunstone in August about lost Mormon documents. Does he include the Lost Spalding Manuscript? We'll focus on lost documents and consored General Conferences addresses. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/gJppRwaL0l8 Don’t miss our other conversations with Joe! https://gospeltangents.com/people/joe-geisner/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.