Gospel Tangents Podcast

Here is a more than a top 10 list of things I didn't have time to ask Dr Matt Harris about and his amazing book, "2nd Class Saints." I'll also announce the contest winner! Check out our conversation... https://youtube.com/live/ehbp13IT_sQ Don’t miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.   GT  00:00  It says we are live, so I know I'm 15 minutes late. I apologize for that. Of course, my computer doesn't want to connect to the internet, and then it has to do updates, and so I apologize. But welcome to everybody who's here, and if you're watching this later, welcome to you too as well. So go ahead and tell me. We're live streaming currently on YouTube, Facebook and hopefully LinkedIn. So go ahead and add a comment who you are and where you live. Do you see this nice little gold thing I have here? It turns and you can see that those have contest entries. Maybe I should turn it so you guys can see. I got a new cool thing here. I don't know what you call this, but I can spin it around. Anyway, it's in my way right now, so we will be adding that shortly. So, go ahead and tell me who you are and where you're from, and that would be awesome. GT  01:07  I also want to just say, for the live viewers here, if you have any questions about Matt's amazing book, which is behind me right there, is that the one I'm giving away. Actually, I think this is the one I'm going to give away. I've got mine over here, and I have some notes. Anyway, we'll be giving away this shortly. I'm going to show you my notes here really quickly. I've got two pages of notes. I decided to put together a PowerPoint this time because--oh, and by the way, please let me know if I have good audio or bad audio, because my meter says it's good. But last time, it was my camera, and it was crappy audio. So, if the audio sounds good, let me know. I don't have my monitor, and I was already late, so I didn’t want to hook that up. GT  02:06  Anyway, this is the stuff I didn't get to talk to Matt about in the interview. Some of that stuff, I do want to mention that we have talked about previously. So finally, I decided I should be a little bit organized and put together a PowerPoint to talk about a few things. I want you guys to know as I pull up my PowerPoint here, I'll share it in just a minute. Hopefully it's not going to be too hard to find. I just set it up on a different computer. But feel free to ask me any questions you might have about the book, any questions you'd like to ask. I will do my best to answer them, because I've talked to Matt a lot about this on camera, off camera. GT  02:59   I do want to share some of my older episodes with you guys, especially if you're newer listeners, and you weren't here, I think it was six years ago. I can't remember when we first talked. I like to joke. I think it's kind of true, though, that I discovered Matt. At least I was the first podcaster to discover Matt. So, we've been talking about some of this stuff--at the end of the interview, we talked about Monroe Fleming, I remember--and you probably heard me say that when he talked about Monroe Fleming being almost ordained in 1969, my jaw about hit the floor. I think I've got my slide show. It's very short, but it'll kind of keep us on task here. I'm going to share that in just a moment. Please post your comments, questions. I'd love to hear them. I can't see the comments when I'm on the slideshow, but I will try to answer them. So, it ended up, it's kind of a top 10 list, because I had 10 items before I ran out of time. Actually, I had more than 10. But I wanted to share some things from the book that I just thought were amazing. Let me share my screen now. GT  04:43  Here we go. So, it says that I'm sharing my screen. This is Matt's amazing book.

Hugh B Brown risked literally everything to try to overturn the priesthood/temple ban in the LDS Church. For that he was dismissed from First Presidency. Dr Matt Harris discusses Brown's attempts to end the ban just before Pres McKay's death, which led to him being dropped from the First Presidency. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/G9C2No5bfVY Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.   Fired From First Presidency GT  00:13  I'm trying to remember where to go next. I've got two or three questions here. I want to do them all. Since we're talking about the apostles, I want to dive back in. I know we talked about that in our previous interview, but when I read your book, it sounded like there was new information that you didn't know five years ago. So, let me frame it this way. In 1969, [Michael Quinn] tells a story that there was a vote to rescind the ban, and it was unanimous for all present, but Harold B. Lee wasn't there. I'm trying to remember. So, basically there was a re-vote, and I remember you said that President Kimball went to President Brown and said, basically, "I'm with you, President Brown, but I fear Elder Lee." Matt  1:13  Yes. GT  1:14  And I think that was the genesis for the 1969 statement, and it wasn't signed by President McKay, because he died a month later, I think it was. Matt  1:26  Correct. GT  1:27  And basically it said, "We don't know why the ban is, but God knows." So, then fast forward to 1978 and then the ban is lifted. I remember the question that I had at the time, and I think, at the time, you didn't know what was Elder Benson's position in 1969 and 1978? Because when I read that in your book, I was floored to hear, especially President Benson, how he changed. So, can you talk about those two important meetings, as well as the 1969 statement that was a result of that? Matt  2:18  So there's two events going on here. One would be September of 1969 where Hugh Brown, he's a counselor in the First Presidency. When he was called into the First Presidency in 1961, he gave the brethren fits from the get go. He is a liberal Canadian. Those are not my words. Those are words he used. In fact, a couple of years before he died, he gave an oral history with his [grand]son, Ed Firmage, who was a law professor at the University of Utah for his career. Ed passed away a few years ago, and Ed was very close with his grandfather and recognized that his grandfather was a significant leader. So, gratefully, Ed interviewed hours worth of interviews with his grandfather in 1968 and 1969. A little tiny bit of that interview was published by Signature Books in the late 1980s. It's billed as the memoir of Hugh Brown, and the tiny bit of that, it's not a very big book. It’s definitely worth looking at. But only a fraction of those dozens and dozens of hours made it into that book. I have all the hours in the transcripts.  So, I can tell you what made it in and what didn't. But maybe 5% of the interview made it in that book. So ,there's a whole chunk that's not. Brown was very candid in those interviews. He told his [grand]son, Now, keep in mind he's in his eighties when he's giving these interviews, and his mind is still really sharp. And he said to his grandson. His mind is still really sharp. He said to Ed Firmage that I am more a liberal today than I've ever been, and the longer I've lived, the more I believe in the rightness of my Democratic Party. It's a good thing Ezra Taft Benson wasn't in the room. And so that's what he said. He always identified as a liberal. Those are not my words. [In] reading his politics. That's how he identified. Matt  4:34  And so he posed fits for the brethren on two fronts. One was the ban. He never thought it was compatible with the gospel.

Can you imagine being inside the room for 1978 revelation? The journals of Marion D Hanks take us there when the 1978 revelation was announced to the Quorum of 70. We will also discuss the 1969 statement by the Apostles and most of the First Presidency affirming the ban. Dr Matt Harris takes us behind the scenes to discuss the statement affirms a ban from temple & priesthood for black members and claiming the reasons were known only to God.  Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/MY9DQdG-lA4 Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.   Marion D. Hanks GT  00:41  So another surprise. I felt like, because of our previous interview, I knew a lot of what you were going to say, but there were still surprises. I was [surprised by] the amount of correspondence that you got with Marion D. Hanks--now he's a former Seventy, former General Authority.[1] He's passed away, and I had heard from Margaret Young and some others that he was very instrumental and very progressive, for lack of a better word with regards to race. But I was shocked at how much correspondence you got from Marion D. Hanks. So could you introduce them and also say, how  you got your hands on so much materia? Matt  01:36  Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I get asked this a lot, and let me answer the broader question, which is, how I got access to this material. Then I'll tell you some great things about Elder Hanks. So as a historian, I only want to write on things where I can get access to the best records. I always liken it to a Thanksgiving metaphor that the turkey would be the First Presidency meeting minutes, Quorum of the Twelve meeting minutes, letters, diaries, that's the turkey. The trimmings, the Thanksgiving trimmings would be Ensign articles or Improvement Era articles, or maybe something in the Deseret News, or maybe a General Conference sermon or a BYU devotional or a published writing. Those are all important. And I utilize the trimmings in my book a lot. But make no mistake, this book is grounded in the turkey. And so how do I get the turkey? And there's a there's a couple of answers. One is that the Church archivist granted me stuff that I never thought I would be granted. For example, I got access to the Joseph Fielding Smith papers. GT  02:49  Oh, I didn't know that. Matt  02:50  Yeah, which is rich, and I've said this before to different people, that it gave me a different perspective on him, that when people read his writings from the mid-20th century, you just see him as some hardliner with race and all of this. But when I was going through his diaries, I saw a person who was funny. I would just start laughing spontaneously in the Church Archives Reading Room. I'm sure the senior missionaries are like, "Who is this guy? What's he doing? He's just laughing." And I'm reading his diaries. I'll give you one example. Every year when I got to, I think, April 1, Joseph Fielding writes in his diary. He wasn't a full diarist. He wouldn't write 10 paragraphs, usually they were maybe two. He wrote them in a little--we would, today, call it a Franklin day planner or something. They didn't have that in those days, but it was something similar. And so he would write a couple of paragraphs. So he wasn't really a rich diarist, but he would say stuff like, "I was at the church building today," or at the office, as he puts it, "and I met with this committee and that committee, and I interviewed these people for missions. Then I got home, so it was a good day," he says paragraph one. Paragraph two. "Then I got home and I did my taxes. Oh, I hate giving my money to the government! Exclamation point." It seems like every year, on April 1, I read the same thing. I’m laughing. I thought this guy is really funny, and he was a prankster.

Are there things Lester Bush missed? Lester Bush wrote a groundbreaking 1873 article blaming Brigham Young, rather than Joseph Smith, for instituting the priesthood & temple ban. I asked Matt Harris if there was a weakness in the article that didn't address the racial theology behind the ban. He said there was, and found some interesting information in the Adam Bennion minutes that Lester didn't know about. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/Rt9yJfxHzoc   Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.   Lester Bush Weaknesses/Bennion Minutes GT  0:23  We all have great reverence for Lester Bush and his amazing, groundbreaking article that rewrote the priesthood ban, basically.[1] But I think I heard that one of the weaknesses of that article, which is fantastic, but the weakness is he didn't go into the racial theology. Is that true? Matt  0:46  Yeah. It is true. One of the omissions of Lester Bush, so for your audience, he's was not trained in history. He was a medical doctor who worked for the government. GT  1:00  He recently passed away, sadly. Matt  1:01  He recently passed away, and he was a great person. I always sent my stuff to Lester Bush, and then I think he got, was it Alzheimer's or dementia. GT  1:11  I think so. Matt  1:12  Alzheimer's, yeah. And so he was a great critic. And a couple of years ago, I sent one of my articles to him, and he'd always say, "Oh, I love this. Send it back to me, or send me your next piece." And he was just such a fine critic, and always made helpful suggestions. And anyway, I sent one of my articles to him, and I didn't hear from him. I thought, oh, that's odd. He always enjoys reading my stuff. But I didn't know how sick he was and how much it had progressed to that point. So that's what it was. He wasn't reading any more emails. Anyway, a wonderful guy, and he lived in Maryland. When he was in Southeast Asia on government assignment, his brother, who was a BYU student at the time in the late 1960s, he wrote his brother, Lester, a note, a letter, and he said, "Hey, I just came across, or I heard that there are some papers at BYU that deal with the brethren's First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 meeting minutes." The Adam Bennion family had donated them. "You're going to want to see these." The BYU brother knew that Lester had an interest in this topic. GT  2:19  Adam Bennion was a former apostle, is that right? Matt  2:22  Adam Bennion was a former apostle whose family defied convention and donated the papers to BYU, rather than the Church Archives, where they're put away, a vault within a vault and throw away the keys or eviscerate the code so nobody can get access. That wouldn't happen today, by the way, they would not donate papers to the brethren today to BYU, at least institutional papers. But they did in those days. I think he died in 1953, so the family, at some point in the 50s, donated the papers. They didn't have the policy in place yet. So this maverick librarian named Chad Flake, I knew him personally. He had sort of disheveled hair. He just did not look like a BYU person. I found him delightful. He was an interesting guy. He was just a free thinking kind of guy and  he allowed Bush's brother--I don't know how Bush's brother learned about the minutes, presumably from Chad Flake, who was the curator of the minutes. But Flake certainly let it be known that we have these minutes. So BYU Bush wrote his brother and said, "Next time you're in town, come see this." So Bush made the arrangements with Chad Flake to see the minutes. Almost immediately, he recognized what those minutes meant, because the minutes were part of a study that apostle Adam Bennion had done in 1954 at President McKay's request to look into the feasibility of lifting ...

Is "white and delightsome" a racist scripture? Dr Matt Harris discusses the evolution of the priesthood/temple ban in the 19th century. He discusses black men who held the priesthood, and why Brigham Young removed their possibility of attending the temple. We'll also discuss the controversial passages "white & delightsome" vs "pure & delightsome" in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation with Matt Harris... https://youtu.be/OK5AeAAvrIY Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. GT  0:49  So what I'd like to first do, I remember when we spoke, in fact, this was our first interview, it was about this book. Matt  0:58  Which hadn't been named yet. GT  1:01  Yeah, it hadn't been named. But what I'd like to do, because you do, I think in chapter one, you spend a very short chapter on the priesthood ban in the 19th century, and you noted that there were some black men who held the priesthood. Could you just give us a thumbnail of 19th century policies within the Church and blacks? Matt  1:27  Yes. For years and years and years, the Church narrative was that the ban began with the Prophet Joseph Smith. In 1922, Andrew Jensen, who was the Assistant Church Historian published, I think it was a four volume encyclopedia biography. And just what it is, you just go through alphabetically to different subjects you could look up. And there was one subject in there that came back to bite the Church, and that the subject was Elijah Abel. GT  1:57  Yes. Matt  1:58  And so this is the first time that the Saints are reading that there was an early black priesthood holder. Oh, let me tell you, they wrote letters to the First Presidency, to the Quorum of the Twelve. How could there be a ban with Joseph Smith and Elijah Abel. Joseph Fielding Smith said, who was then the Church Historian, Joseph Fielding Smith said that that question has come back to haunt us. I wish he never would have included it. [He wished] Jensen wouldn't have included Elijah Abel in the biography. So, they didn't know how to answer it. How can you say the ban began with the Prophet, the founding Prophet, if a black man's ordained to the priesthood. Joseph Fielding Smith was interesting in his responses. One Latter-day Saint inquisitor, he wrote back, and he said, "There were actually two Elijah Ables in Nauvoo, one was white and one was black.” I mean, there's no evidence for any of this stuff, but he's trying to work out this narrative. And then a little while later, he gave a different answer, and he said that it was a mistake. There's no evidence for that either. GT  3:07  Right. Matt  3:08  And I'm not here to pick on Joseph Fielding Smith. I'm just merely telling the story that the brethren are trying to understand this and comprehend it. And J. Reuben Clark of the First Presidency was scheduled to give a general conference talk in October of 1954 and it's the only time I've noticed where the brethren, where at least Clark had acknowledged that there were a few priesthood holders, black priesthood holders. Mostly Elijah Abel was known because of Andrew Jensen. But he acknowledges that there were a few priesthood holders of black African ancestry who held the priesthood. President McKay nixed the talk. "Don't give it." GT  3:54  Really? Matt  3:55  Yeah for two reasons. One, I think it was less about the acknowledgement of three black--well, that was part of it. That's not true. Part of it was, we don't want the Church [members] to know that there are three black priesthood holders. The other part was it, a lot of the talk talked about civil rights, which I'm sure we'll get into in a minute. But President McKay didn't want President Clark talking about civil rights and bringing attention to it when the civil rights movement was heatin...

Dr Matt Harris from Colorado State University-Pueblo has an amazing book called 2nd Class Saints. It's about the race ban from World War 2 to the present. It's a best seller and sold out in about a month! I think it will win book of the year! We'll discuss his cutting-edge scholarship, how he got access to some amazing diaries and meeting minutes, and the amazing discoveries that help describe the removal of the race ban in June 1978. We'll dive in deep! Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/mk3_jVGW95U Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. GT  00:54  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I have one of my absolute favorite guests on the show, and it's been way too long. It's been more than three years since he's been on. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where you teach? Matt  01:08  My name is Matt Harris, and I teach at Colorado State University-Pueblo, where I've taught since 2005.  I teach legal history, civil rights history, race and politics, church and state and the American Constitution. GT  01:25  Oh, wow! Matt  01:25  All the stuff that I write about usually shows up in some form in my classroom, lectures and teachings. So, it's a lot of fun. GT  01:37  Well, and you've got a best selling book. I fact, I think it's only been out a month or two. Matt  01:44  It's been out since July 1st. GT  01:46  So, less than a month, and it's already sold out. Matt  01:49  It's already sold out. GT  01:50  So tell us the name of the book. Matt  01:52  The book is called Second Class Saints: Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality. I'm happy to say it sold out the first print run. But there's a second printing that'll come out probably in a few days. So, the gap is not it's not big. GT  02:11  I just want to point out that Matt was kind enough to autograph a copy of Second Class Saints, and one of you is going to win this book. It's a fantastic book, I'm sure. Here's the thing. I already think it's going to win the Best Book Award for next year, although you are going to have a run for your money, because Paul Reeve is coming out with his book on the 1852 legislature, a similar topic, so he might give you a run for your money.[1] But this book is incredible. Matt  02:57  Thank you. GT  02:58  For those of you, you know, nobody watches on my podcast like I do. We have already talked about a lot of this book from about six years ago, I think it was. Matt  03:12  Probably. GT  03:12  And so, we're going to dive into a little bit, because I'm sure in the last six years I've got some new listeners that haven't heard that. But I will say, go check it out. We're going to talk about some of the other stuff in this book that doesn't get as much play. Also, I don't know if I should ask you now. I'll ask you later, but I'll just preview it here. I'm going to ask what you had to put on the cutting room floor? Matt  03:41  Yeah. I've been asked that. That's a good question. GT  03:46  Anyway, just for those of you, by the way, you're my first five-time guest. Matt  03:52  Woo! GT  03:52  But, it's been three years. Matt  03:56  Wow, oh my goodness, five times. Where does time go?   Pres Benson GT  04:00  Although one of them technically, we started talking about this book, and we then we got, then I asked a question about Ezra Taft Benson, and then we went for another two hours. So I, actually, split that one up twice. So, you're a big Benson fan. Right? Matt  04:20  No. I mean, that's not a comment on him, personally, it's a comment on his politics.  I do not think that right wing extremism is good for anybody. Anyway, I have written about Elder Benson, and I've written about how his political views have influenced the Church.

Have you ever wanted to visit Historic Kirtland? Come along with Rick Bennett as he visited some of the amazing sites in June 2024. Check it out! https://youtu.be/6ZUDiRFzP0o   Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved

In our latest GT Live, we'll announce the contest winner for Cheryl Bruno's book, "Secret Covenants." I'll also show you some pictures from my recent trip to Ireland. They had some cool churches there along with the Taylor Swift concert! We'll also discuss my reactions to Cheryl's book, "Secret Covenants." I'll share my reactions from the Clair Barrus & Mary Ann Clements interviews & chapters on polygamy, and preview Cheryl and John Dinger's biography on William Marks, an early Church leader. Plus more! Check out our conversation... https://youtube.com/live/V9Kj6ZEyn2U Don’t miss our other GT Live meetings! transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved

Does a skeptic see temple in Book of Mormon?After having listened to Dave Butler discuss temple theology in the Book of Mormon, would a skeptic be convinced? We'll talk about that in our next conversation. Let us know what you think. I will also ask if it matters to Dave if the Book of Mormon is historical. Check out our conversation by signing up to our free newsletter at gospeltangents.com/newsletter and I'll send you the conclusion to our conversation. https://youtu.be/IlmjMfQZcCw Don’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/ transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved

What's the story of Joseph Kingsbury being a pretend husband? We will also discuss The Happiness Letter is a letter Joseph Smith from to Nancy Rigdon, to get her as a plural wife. It was printed by John C Bennett but continues to be cited by LDS Leaders. Check out our conversation with Clair Barrus who wrote a chapter in Secret Covenants... https://youtu.be/l1_BFUYet_4 Don’t miss our other conversations with Clair: https://gospeltangents.com/people/clair-barrus/   Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved