Fringe Legal

It's really important to spend that initial time on the vision. The 'why are we doing it?' And, the next sort of stage for me was them saying -  the technology that we were adopting was really just a tool to get us on that vision. It's not the solution, because we're the solution. Like how we use it is the solution, but here's the tool that we're going to start with for us on our vision.Then there was a lot of planning. The next thing is really being quite studious, really detail-oriented about planning, and planning some more; having a communication strategy, thinking about how you talk to different lawyers. If people email them, if you have weekly standups and, I learned quite early on, for example, that sending emails every day, just didn't cut through. Because the lawyer never read them. So using different channels to communicate the change that's coming is very important and being quite sensitive to the audience. And that's my next point: thinking about the audience because you're going to have change champions in your audience, you're going to have people that are very reluctant and then you can have everybody in between.  We recorded this conversation in Feb 2020, and Katrina then also spoke at the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit. During that session, she expanded much further into the knowledge-based way of working. It’s well worth a watch, and Katrina answers the following thesis: what do you do to capture and share the lawyers’ knowledge, both for the current team and for the future? Do you have a strategic plan to capture that knowledge and a culture aimed at making this a priority? My caution to everybody's always, you know, think about what you're spending on the technology, but then also think about what you're spending both in terms of money and time in terms of the implementation and the adoption of that technology because the measure of success isn't the software, It's how your team adopts it and uses it. So that's where your focus should be  Build up a knowledge-based way of working, and what that really means is: the legal team's biggest asset is everything in the brains of the lawyers in the team. All the experience that they bring to their job every day. But what I think many legal teams, including ours, had not done terrifically well at in the past that I actually think, by contrast, a lot of law firms do well is capturing that knowledge.So building a central repository so that you can share it with each other now and for the future. So we have been on a journey for this financial year to sort of build up firstly, a team culture to sort of really embed in our lawyers, the importance of anything that you learn, you share, and how you do that. In this episode you'll learn about:Katrina’s journey from private practice to inhouse to leading a transformation initiativeOne simply thing private practice lawyers can do to add value to their clients Build up a knowledge-based way of working - what it means and how to do itHow Katrina and her team measure the success and effectiveness of internal initiativesUtilizing technology as a catalyst for innovation and managing the change project that comes with itPractical suggestions for in-house legal teams as they tackle internal projects, including if you have a large, medium, or a small team.SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher  So I also spent a lot of time, once we launched our system and trained our lawyers, and we started in it, going around and sitting down and saying: "what are your issues"? Give me issues. And also, what are your ideas for improving it? And I logged them all. Then as I slowly went through them all, I kept closing the loop either directly with the lawyer or with the team.And I'd say, I fixed this problem now, or I've let everybody know we're making this change to our system because so-and-so saw that this was a great idea or gapping the technology that we had. Where that gets you to is I think somewhere where the team actually owns the technology and they really are thinking about it's theirs.How do they continue to maximize it? It's got a very open dialogue about continuous improvement. Everybody knows that it's never going to be a hundred percent perfect, technology never is, but everybody's got a very, forward-looking approach to how we're gonna use it. And, keeping on, that continuous improvement cycle.Connect with Katrina on LinkedIn.

In legal, to me, it will be about the challenger law firms... just have to flip a few things upside down. And, introduce a disruptive new model of doing business in this space. And that will happen in law, and you see this already, you see this with, for example, Deloitte legal, coming out. And there are a few new-law law firms, as well that are in this space and are trying different models. We recorded this conversation in Feb 2020, and of course, the world changed dramatically since then. As an accompaniment, I would recommend watching Karina’s talk at the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit, where she shares how to run successful SaaS implementation projects. In technology, when you're building products and in any industry that you look at that has been disrupted and innovated over time, all of them share in common, failing fast and trying different things. And you know, they say only 1 in 10 disruptors or startups will work out. The other nine will fail, but you kind of need that churn, that turnover in the markets of different players trying and failing and learning from each other in order to get that 1 out of 10 that is successful. And that is true in a market, and it's also true within an individual organization where if you don't have that culture of trying failing, then it's much harder to learn from mistakes and it is much harder to finally get to a solution that works.  In this episode you'll learn about:Karina’s journey to becoming a chess masterGoing from chess to legal tech to reg tech to founding her own agencyWhat is reg tech, and the importance of compliance The three pillars of KV Labs and why they matter: design, build and launchImportance of UI/UX in product designThe concept of challenger law firms, and how they might disrupt the legal professionSUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher   It's just that inevitably compliance is becoming more and more a strategic function. It's no longer just about knowing what you can and cannot do and responding to internal requests. it is just inevitable becoming more strategic because the industry is becoming more complex as well. And that's what RegTech is really about - at the end of the day, enabling that function.You can learn more about KV Labs here, and find Karina on LinkedIn and Twitter. 

Sam leads business transformation projects across every division of Burness Paull. In particular, Sam helps teams within the firm to identify opportunities for automation and/or augmented workflows, making sure that Burness Paull takes full advantage of innovations in legal technology in delivering our services and delighting our clients.There's an old saying that there are three kinds of work in the world: there's good work, there's fast work, and there's cheap work - you can pick any two you like. And I, I think, increasingly what we are trying to do with professionals is we're trying to achieve all three because clients expect us to achieve all three. And you can't necessarily do that by just doing things the same way you've always done them We recorded this conversation in Nov 2019, and of course, the world changed dramatically since then. As an accompaniment, I would recommend watching Sam’s talk at the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit, which was recorded in May 2020. It provides great juxtaposition for how his role has evolved in just a few months. And, interestingly, how many of the future skills are needed today.  Law firms are having to become more comfortable with these new roles and it's very hard to peg some of these new roles, where they sit in the typical hierarchical structure of a law firm. They don't really sit anywhere. And that's a challenge for the profession to get its head around that. You may have to be a bit more flexible about, essentially your, corporate structure to find the right place to put these important skillsets.  In this episode you'll learn about:Sam’s path to becoming an Innovation Manager What does the Scottish Legal Technologist Accreditation meanThe transition from a legal technologist to an innovation managerHow having an in-house perspective adds tremendous value to the clientsSkills for future lawyers Basic IT skillsUnderstanding of data analytics (example: how it might apply to pricing)Better familiarity with remote working - this goes without saying now but we recorded this in November 2019, and it was great foresight. You can learn more about how Sam’s role has been impacted in the post-COVID19 world from his talk at the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit. Being aware of data and cybersecurity issuesSUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher  My first experience of working with the team of Burness Paull was wearing my client hat. I'm seeing how information is being sent across, seeing how project updates are being provided, and also seeing where the sticky points are in terms of routine transactions. So when I came back over to the lawyer side of the table, I could look out for the work I was doing and think, okay, I know this particular area of the project here is going to cause some difficulties. You can find Sam on LinkedIn and Twitter

when we come back to work, it's going to be really interesting how we'll be able to help support the remote worker as well as those that, want to maintain some level of tradition.Shannon is a successful outsourced solution professional with 25 years of law firm experience.  Shannon has been with Canon 21 years originally serving as the Midwest Operations Manager for 10 years where she and her service team implemented and managed some of our largest and most innovative law firm accounts.  Having been a Facility & Services Manager for a national law firm prior to joining Canon, Shannon has the unique ability to understand law firm requirements from a client and provider perspective. Documents services and the ability to move away from, print is going to be probably the largest area of opportunity. And the best use of the support structure and also,  just driving efficiency and in those areas.  In this episode you'll learn about:How long firms are planning for the return to workWhere are some areas of change that Shannon and her colleagues are seeingSome practical, and low-tech approaches that firms will need to implement to make people feel comfortable as they return to workWhat are some differences between leadership in corporate vs law firmsSUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher  leadership in some of our corporate clients is really taking this opportunity to say when you come back to work, it's going to look like this rather than let's get you back to work and, let's figure it out along the way.You can find Shannon on LinkedIn

I'm not sure that AI has changed what we do more than electricity did, and somehow they [lawyers] were able to absorb that. So actually, you know, where's the gap, we always assume they can't absorb technology, but maybe they can. Maz will also be speaking at the 2020 Fringe Legal Virtual Summit, where he will expand on many of these items. Register at www.fringelegal.com/summitif you look at the time spent on talking about the subject versus the number of real-world effects, it's not what you'd expect.quite a lot of lawyers see that job as being artisanal. You know, they are they all skilled craftsman doing something that's too complicated for anyone else to comprehendIn this episode you'll learn about:The wide spectrum of innovation found within law firms and legal practicesThe ask to make complicated disciples more simple so it can be spread to different types of lawyersHow to practically approach innovation conversation with lawyersHow to practically approach innovation conversation with clients and in-house teamsHow to identify the intervention points that can have a significant impact on the delivery of quality workSUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher I find the in house legal teams are normally really conscientious. They're just desperate to do the best job that they possibly can for the business and feel a bit kind of sad because a lot of the time they can't turn things around as quickly as they want to.Or they have to say no to people. And, then you try and work out, well, what are the intervention points that are most likely going to help them achieve that.You can find Maziar on LinkedIn and Twitter

In 2015, Torsten joined the M&A Corporate department of the international law firm of Bech-Bruun as a project coordinator. Not long afterward, Torsten got involved in the development of Bech-Bruun’s legal tech projects and, for the past few years, has been one of the driving forces behind the implementation of AI and document automation software across the organisation. In January 2019, Bech-Bruun launched its 2022 Strategy and this involved Torsten being appointed Head of Legal Tech Innovation and in charge of developing and implementing new innovative services and products in collaboration with clients and the rest of Bech-Bruun's organisation.This is not just about selling products. This is about how can we serve the client in the best way possible. Taking their strategic direction into account, but also ours, and actually building that close collaboration around a legal tech. SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher During the episode we discuss:How Torsten went from project management coordinator for the M&A team to head of legal tech innovationWhat does this specialist role of legal tech coordinator entailHow Torsten’s role is entangled with what the CIO does as well as the head of business developmentHow the firm manages a pipeline of ideas and uses this to plan against a 6, 12 and 36-month technology strategyWhy Bech Brunn bought dot legalAn example of a project that was on the firms’ development/idea pipeline and brought to fruitionWhat are the benefits of the key accounts management program that the firms’ clients get from them Find Torsten on Bech-Bruun, LinkedIn, and TwitterAnother aspect of the job is actually to insource, as I said, the ideas from the clients and really trying to develop the ideas both with the clients but also with the lawyers.And then we have a selection process where we actually take these ideas, cultivate them, and figure out: is it a viable product? Can we make it work? Can we put it into operation and actually sell it to the clients? Can we, conceptualize it? Can we make, revenue?. from this offering? And this is really in close collaboration with our head of business development and also our CIO.Because I can only take part of it, and when it goes to sales and marketing and into operations, it's really important for me to have the head of business development and his team pitch in with all the knowledge they have regarding conceptualizing and also putting it into operation.

People don't love legal and, if we can help people to love the legal process, um, I think that's, that's really where it [the idea] came from.In the episode today we cover:How Love Legal got their start How making improvements to the design can help people to love the legal processWhat are some of the considerations when thinking about the consumer point of view, especially for B2C or B2B2C businessesWe do also specifically talk about (and speculate) on what might be the future of Will writing, estates law, and execution using instruments such as smart contractshow online presence does affect, people's decision making. It was something like 50% of millennials care about a law firm’s website compared to 20% of boomers....if law firms are looking ahead or looking deep into the future, say 15 years, there's going to be a massive change SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher More information LoveLegal.comSeb Shakh Caroline RaganPlease subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review. If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com 

The call for innovation is really a call for service transformation in disguise. What clients are really asking for is a different way of servicing and working with them, and that in itself is an innovation in terms of process. We kick off the third season of the podcast with the fantastic Michele DeStefano. The basis of this episode is exploring some of the ideas behind Michele's book - Legal Upheaval.We talk about:What clients are asking for from lawyersHow GCs and Corporates feel about the service being received by their lawyersThe call for service transformation Change management: lawyers are not so resistant to changeHow the lawyer's skills delta has changed since its inception 18 months agoI think if you took all of my interviews of all the in house counsel from around the world. And put them into one of those word grams. I think the words that would come out the most would be together.I think that's an important and big shift because that's hard to do, very hard to do, especially when you're working with many different clients... I would say that that is the number one, the number one thing that lawyers don't spend long enough on is asking why before jumping to solve.Find out moreMOVELΔWLaw Without WallsMichele's on social: LinkedIn and TwitterMichele's books: Legal Upheaval and New Suits

In 2012, Jan Roggen founded Adhemar.law, a Belgian environmental and real estate boutique law firm, recognized by clients, peers and legal 500. In 2015, he started exploring new service, delivery models. While doing so, he learned that he did not have the required business skills to effectively drive and lead innovation in the firm. So he took the leap and moved to Canada with his family to study innovation management at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario while managing the firm remotely. During his stay in Canada, he saw the Raptors win the NBA Championship and obtained additional certifications in Legal Project Management, Lean Six Sigma, Design Sprint Facilitation, and Wilderness and Remote First Aid.Jan currently focuses on innovation and change management within the firm. In 2019, Adhemar.law was one of the 4 nominees for the 2019 Belgian Legal awards for the most innovative law firms. In addition, Jan is an expert in environmental law, expropriation law, and general public law. He advises private and public clients on the realization of infrastructure projects, area development, and other public and private industries, commercial and residential projects.Outside of his law practice, he founded a non-profit that helps youth learn important problem-solving skills and build resilience through extracurricular activities.   It's been a special experience trying to guide a law firm through a change process remotely. We have a young law firm that's very open to change. But even when everyone's open to change, change management is very challenging and if you want to do it remotely, it's even more challenging. In the episode today, we discuss:The truth about change management; it’s hard even when people are open and accepting of itChallenges around running a law firm remotelyHow Jan’s firm created a “bottom-up” culture and instilled an environment where everyone is open to learning from each other. The most experienced lawyer learns something from the trainee and vice versa. Learning through experiments and having buy-in to get people to own what they doHow knowledge management is making money for the firm, and provide a strong return on their investment to tools from companies like LiteraThe main thing, which is very difficult in the legal profession, is to put your ego at the door and leave it at the door before you go in. Once you're able to do that, everything's possible. The thing for me that made it possible is that I was away - I had to stop micromanaging my own firm.  SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher We're trying to use everybody's talents and knowledge. Instead of making some kind of a complete lawyer of everyone we tried to divide the work. We have some lawyers who are very good, very empathetic - they love being social, the extroverts. So we put them and the client-facing position.  Whereas there are other people who are really good at thinking,  contemplating, and doing deep legal work -  writing complex advice. So we put these two people together and let them handle one person to handle most of the clients and the other one most of the file.Whereas in a traditional firm, you would have one person doing everything and then that one person would either not be very social, or not have a very good relationship with the clients. Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review. If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com 

Kim Lewis is the Legal Transformation Manager at Gilbert + Tobin.  At the end of the day, it all comes down to clients. That's what we're doing. It's delivering a service to clients so how we deliver that service. What happens to all legal advice once we give it to the client is a really interesting point.  Kim is a UK qualified lawyer and consultant in the Legal Service Innovation team at G+T. She designs solutions for lawyers, working closely with deal teams to project manage and streamline large-scale projects, creating efficiencies and quality outputs for clients.Kim specialises in implementing artificial intelligence tools and has experience in legal technology design and roll-out and change management. She also advises and trains lawyers to use the full spectrum of efficiency tools available at Gilbert + Tobin.Kim brings a range of practical legal experience to her role, having worked in the UK as an M+A lawyer at a large Magic Circle firm and in-house. Show notes The initial idea for this episode was simple - I wanted to speak to Kim about how she explains complex technical topics to non-technical audiences (such as lawyers).But like with all great things, it evolved quickly. Ultimately, we speak about:legal transformation - the state of play today, and speculating what might change in the future;The client journey, specifically we discuss what should be considered during the delivery of legal work; and,Kim explains the concept of machine learning and computer modeling using art as an analogy SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher   The factors that go into your experience of it, but I think it's heavily influenced by expectation. I think one of the real difficulties that are being faced in-house by our clients is that they sometimes actually don't know what to expect and we may not communicate that, or maybe they're going to a fancy restaurant just because they want to be seen there.You know, maybe they're not going for the food at a good restaurant - a good service personnel will recognize that and then tailor the experience for them. You're also not going to love going back to a restaurant if it cost you an arm and a leg and you weren't satisfied with that experience. So the expectation and the price has a huge impact on the type of service that we should be looking to deliver as a waiter or as a lawyer... If you don't adapt, then you don't survive. Equally, you don't want to go off on a limb either, and I think that's what's quite difficult for law firms. Where do you draw that line?Where is the right amount of change within the organization at a certain point in time? I think it's a very difficult one to judge, but I know that sitting down and doing nothing is not really an option.   Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review. If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com