In this episode, CEO of Julie Wiebe Physical Therapy, Inc., Dr. Julie Wiebe, PT, DPT, talks about running and pregnancy. Today, Julie talks about running/exercise and pregnancy, creating baselines, the research around female running form, and she busts some pregnancy myths. When can you return to running after pregnancy? What is Julie’s definition of ‘postpartum women’? She tells us about structuring exercises around their daily exercises and goals, pelvic health education, and she gives some advice to clinicians working with postpartum runners, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “Landing mechanics are affected by what’s happening north.” “Let’s understand what they looked like beforehand so that we have a better idea of how to help them find their way back.” “Just because you had a baby doesn’t mean you should be in pain and weak for the rest of your life.” “Listen to what’s happening, but learn to interpret it.” “If your 10 minutes is spent running and that’s your goal, you’ll do it. But if I say you’ve got to lay down on the ground and do rehab exercises that make no connection for you, you’re not going to be motivated to do that.” “Pelvic health does not mean that you have to be clinically prepared to do internal work. It just means that you’re treating the musculoskeletal of someone who happens to have a pelvis, which, last I checked, is everyone. You don’t have to be certified as a women’s health specialist, but you can get information, read books, watch videos, take courses so that you are competent in treating a woman postpartum that wants to get back to running.” “The pelvic floor is not the only gatekeeper that creates pelvic health. It is a component of multiple body systems, and we need to understand that those systems affect the way the pelvic floor acts and behaves. The pelvic floor itself needs to have attention directed at it, but when we talk about just the pelvic floor, it isolates it away from relevance to other areas of care.” “Learn to ask questions, and ask questions that make you uncomfortable. You will get more comfortable with it, and understand that what you’re trying to do is open a door of communication.” “When you read the conclusion in research, is there any other explanation that could’ve come to that same conclusion based on what you’re seeing?” “We need to start broadening our lense, and I think we’re broadening it to look at females as not just little men.” “Instead of thinking of learning as this linear thing, include and transcend. Instead of it being a linear line, let it be concentric circles.”   More about Julie Wiebe Julie Wiebe, PT, DPT has over twenty-four years of clinical experience in Sports Medicine and Pelvic Health, specializing in pelvic/abdominal, pregnancy and postpartum health for fit and athletic females. Her passion is to return women to fitness and sport after injury and pregnancy, and equip pros to do the same. She has pioneered an integrative approach to promote women’s health in and through fitness. Her innovative concepts and strategies have been successfully incorporated by rehab practitioners and fitness professionals into a variety of populations (ortho/sports medicine, pelvic health, neurology, and pediatrics). A published author, Julie is a sought after speaker to provide continuing education and lectures internationally at clinics, academic institutions, conferences, and professional organizations. She provides direct care to female athletes through telehealth and her clinical practice in Los Angeles, California.   Suggested Keywords Physiotherapy, Pregnancy, Research, PT, Health, Therapy, Healthcare, Education, Training, Postpartum, Running, Exercise, Pelvic Health, Conversation,   Use the code: LITZY for 20% off the following courses from Dr. Wiebe:   Treating and Training the Female Runner (or Any Female Athlete) Foundations + Running Bundle A Foundations + Running Bundle B   Running Rehab Roundtable Live Broadcast https://www.crowdcast.io/e/runningrehab   To learn more, follow Julie at: Website:          https://www.juliewiebept.com Instagram:       @juliewiebept Twitter:            @JulieWiebePT YouTube:        Julie Wiebe LinkedIn:         Julie Wiebe   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full transcript:  Speaker 1 (00:07): Welcome to the healthy, wealthy, and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness, and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information. You need to live your best life. Healthy, wealthy, and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am your, Speaker 2 (00:39): The host, Karen Litzy and today's episode. I'm really excited to round out our month all about running injuries and running rehab with Dr. Julie Wiebe. She has over 24 years of clinical experience in sports medicine and pelvic health specializing in pelvic abdominal pregnancy and postpartum health for fit and athletic females. Her passion is to return women to fitness in sport, after injury in pregnancy and equip pros to do the same. She has pioneered an integrative approach to promote women's health in and through fitness. Her innovative concepts and strategies have been successfully incorporated by rehab practitioners and fitness professionals into a variety of populations, or at those sports medicine, pelvic health neurology, pediatrics, a published author. Julie is a sought after speaker to provide continuing education lectures internationally at clinics, academic institutions, conferences, and professional organizations. She provides direct care to female athletes to through tele-health and her clinical practice in Los Angeles, California. Speaker 2 (01:48): So Julie's amazing. And in this episode, we talk about some myths about running while pregnant and in the postpartum. And of course, the question that everyone always asks Julie is how can we return to run after pregnancy? So Julie answers that question and cause a lot of really helpful hints for practitioners to look for when evaluating postpartum women and those postpartum women, those runners can be anywhere from six weeks to six years, 16 years, 20 years after having a child. And she also encourages clinicians to think critically, to look deeper, to have a framework for evaluation, to try and, and, and get a baseline to ask your patients to film themselves while they're running or exercising so that you can understand what they look like when they're doing what they do. There's a lot of variables to post to running post-pregnancy and Julie really runs through all of them. Speaker 2 (03:01): So I want to give a big, huge thanks to Julie for coming on the podcast today and sharing all of this knowledge. And she also has a discount on the course. So she has a course on running a postpartum running. So she has a course for the listeners. So all you have to do is enter the promo code Litzy that's L I T Z Y my last name for 20% off treating and training the female runner. And just to be clear, this is for professionals, not for individuals. So this is for clinicians. So a huge thanks to Julie for that. We'll have all of the information, including links to everything in the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And tomorrow you can catch Julie live along with Dr. Ellie summers, Dr. Chris Johnson and Tom goom for our live round table discussion. That's tomorrow, March 30th at 2:00 PM Eastern standard time. Speaker 2 (04:10): If you can't make it still sign up because you'll still have a chance to get your question answered by the panel, and you will still get to watch the replay any time you want. And listen, this is a deal. It is $25 for four of, in my opinion, some of the best minds when it comes to running injury and rehab. So sign up today. If you're listening to this today, sign up today because you have until probably, I don't know, it starts maybe until like quarter to two tomorrow, which is March 30th to sign up for our live round table discussion. Again, that's with all four guests from this month, Ellie summers, Chris Johnson, Tom goon, and Julie Wiebe. So sign up to day. Hey, Julie, welcome back to the podcast. I think this is like your third visit to help you well, yes, thank you for sharing your platform with me again. Speaker 2 (05:11): I appreciate it. Of course. And, and this month, the month of March, we're talking all about running, running injuries, running rehab, and I know something that you're passionate about is caring for the postpartum woman that returned to running after giving birth. And, and we'll also talk a little bit about running while pregnant. Right. So I think that there are, there's a lot to cover. And so we are just going to, we're going to zoom right through this unintended since we're on zoom. But let's start first with running while pregnant. I feel like there's a lot of myths around running while pregnant. I don't know that it's understood very well by many people, including clinicians as well as the pregnant women. So I'm just going to kind of throw it over to you and let you just kind of talk about the, the running pregnant woman. Speaker 3 (06:14): Yeah. You know, and I think I think that regarding running and pregnancy, I mean, that's our focus, but really exercise and pregnancy. We still have, we are limited in our understanding of all things. Related to that I think we are started, we have information about things like cardiovascular response or, you know, some of those pieces of the puzzle. But in terms of the musculoskeletal, the neuromuscular, the response of the female host inter like how is that impacting the mom's body systems. Right. and I think that where we are struggling to have a lot of research there in part, because it's hard to find women that are willing to be participate in research. And then there's also a lot of, I, you know, we have to be protective of them. We have to protect them. And so, so it's this, you know, we want to honor that stage of life, but we also need to research it. Speaker 3 (07:13): So so I think we are struggling to, to understand all that, but we're starting to get more and more attention on it, which is awesome. As far as pregnant runners go there's only a few studies that I'm aware of that actually look at the pregnant runner and and of those one is a case study and one is on five women. So we have very limited understanding of what exactly goes on, but there were some themes. So I'll just share some themes. One is that in, in both the studies, they were, they were followed, the women were followed throughout the pregnancy changes were seen in all of the women on how they continue to run through the pregnancy meaning. And particularly the one with the five women, they all did something different, which is the variability is what we're seeing now. Speaker 3 (08:07): Everybody's bodies individually adapted differently. But the through line for them was there was a loss of pelvic and trunk rotation. So when we think about that pregnant runner, this is the way I've started describing it. The belly covers a ton of joints. Like it goes from the thorax to the pelvis. It it's basically, it takes all of these reciprocating joints and it turns it into a unit joint. Like it's one big joint, it blocks motion. So it reduces pelvic and trunk rotation. And so it limits, and then it forces them to rotate elsewhere. All of these are adaptions to help them continue to move through space appropriate for pregnancy and running. But when they go into the postpartum, they carry it with them. And that was what happened in both of these studies. They found that at six months for the woman who was the case study, and then at six weeks postpartum for the women, the five women in the other study, they held onto these, these some of these variables into the postpartum period and where that's significant is that women are given that okay by their doctor at six to eight weeks. Speaker 3 (09:19): This just like, you can just start doing your thing again. But their understanding is I got to just lose weight and get a flat belly. What our understanding needs to be is we need to understand what's changed for them. Biomechanically neuromuscularly emotionally, you know, fatigue, stress, like all of we have to understand all of those pieces and help them restore their interrelationships. Neuromuscularly biomechanically to be more like their baseline in order to prepare them for return to run. Like it's not just, okay, let's get him stronger. It's how do we help them restore that efficiency in their patterns that they lost, but no one realizes they lost it. So six years later, they show up to an orthopedic office and they have some of these running injuries, but how much of it is related to the compensations that they carried into their postpartum. So that's sort of a, an entry point into our conversation. Speaker 2 (10:17): Yeah. And that's, that is so interesting. And it makes sense that they would carry that over because our brain has is plastic and it's going to adapt. And our our sense of where we are appropriate susceptive sense is going to adapt to that. And it just doesn't end because the baby's not inside you anymore. Speaker 3 (10:40): Correct. And you're pulling it off, like in your mind, like you're still pulling off running, like you're actually running. So it, the understanding of what has changed is not understood globally. And I think like, I mean this, the running study related to the five runners that I mentioned, and that was from 2019. So this is, you know, relatively hot off the presses in terms of clinical understanding. So our job clinically is to help restore reciprocation that's really, and we understand the reciprocation is so important for all sorts of pieces of the puzzle for running. And one of those things is actually reducing ground reaction forces, getting our center of mass over that lead leg. Reciprocation is a huge piece of that. And so understanding just that, if that is all you walk away with today, understanding that you're a female that has a postpartum is postpartum, meaning they have a pregnancy in their history when you're working with them related to it, running injury. Speaker 3 (11:39): If it has a ground reaction force components like a knee or anything, you should be looking North of the border, not just foot strength, not just cadence, not like you have to look North and understand, are they actually reciprocating? Where's that reciprocation coming from? Because when you have a unit joint of the lumbar spine in the lower, the only thing that's left is like TL junction and above. So that's where they're reciprocating is way up high at the chest. And if you watch Fumo runner, that's what they're doing. They're punching the sky, it's all up, up, up, up chest high. And it's, that's the pattern that they partially developed during the pregnancy to continue running and pregnancy. There's nothing wrong with that. It co it's an appropriate compensation, but it does. If you don't restore actual reciprocation between the trunk and the pelvis, that's what you're looking for. And if the woman is in gripping her abs, cause she wants to get flat abs again, that's a UDA joint, it's a uniform engagement of the abdomen is what most women hang on to, or try to do while they're running. And that continues to keep their reciprocation high. So it's like understand what's going on North of the border for these women, versus just looking at things like landing mechanics, landing mechanics are affected by what's happening North so Speaker 2 (12:59): Well that's so, yeah, that is so interesting. And now I'm going to be, you know, in central park watching all these women to see, okay, are they just running with their, from like the thoracolumbar junction up? And then just having legs move like a cartoon character or are they actually getting excursion and rotation through the trunk? Speaker 3 (13:19): Amen. Yeah. And then we're getting into summer, right? I mean, I'm here in California, so we're gonna be able to see people's abdomens. And the thing that I, my cue for my clinician friends is what's going on with the navel. Like if their navel is staying straight, dead, straight, the whole time they're holding their abdomen. So stiffly through their run, that they aren't reciprocated. Like they can't be like, that's an indication that's a quick and dirty clinical sign that you can see that that means the reciprocation is likely coming up higher. And then it'll sort of clue you in and you'll see it. And they're, they're the ones punching high in the sky. They've got ribs flared up, like it's sort of, and that's a lot of our female runners. And it's a lot of our women that have never had children because they're holding their abdomens. Speaker 3 (14:03): Cause that's what they think they're supposed to do. And we also have studies that have shown us that stiff abdomen when they had men jump off a height actually increase their ground reaction forces. So it makes sense it's part and parcel, right? Like, you know, we just got to sort of brought in and I think that's my hope when I talk about stuff like this with my ortho and sports medicine, friends and colleagues because that's really, I'm a sports medicine, PT, I'm not a traditional pelvic health PT, but is to broaden our lens and add these ideas into our differential diagnosis. Like we need to start thinking about how these things are affecting. Some of the things we look for in sports medicine. Like we understand to look at how ground reaction forces what's happening, but we don't often this into our thought process. Like how, why is that a typical running pattern for women? It's not just because we have brought her hips and Q angles and, you know, blah, blah, blah, look North, look North with me. There's more going on for these women. And and we have some strategy pieces that we could add into our thought process to help them Speaker 2 (15:13): Yeah, amazing coming in hot, right out of the gate pair with a great tip for everyone. So thank you for that. And one one question that I want to ask, just so the listeners really understand when you talk about postpartum women, can you define what that means? Speaker 3 (15:32): I'll give you my definition. Sure. It doesn't necessarily mean that it is the definition. But I consider anyone who's ever had a baby. And, and here's what I'll say about that. I think technically it's the first year that might be kind of more of a technical thought process. And that's mainly because I started learning this backwards when my, on my patients who were 35 and 45 and 55 and 65. And they still look like me. This is million years ago. Now when I was at postpartum early postpartum, like the way that I was using my body and it was creating issues for me, they were using their bodies that same way. And they were like, well, they had grandchildren at that point. And so once we start understanding, yes, it's a normal process that women go through, but our job is to understand what they went through and help them find their way back to efficiency and effective use of their structure and their systems and their like I D I was Chris. I love that Chris Johnson talked about their ecosystems, like, you know, like looking at all of those pieces for them and understanding our job is to help them get back to their baseline, their individual baseline. Cause my torso is this, like this with this link legs. Some people have long legs short, let you know, like to understand that. So my, one of my big pushes I hope to achieve at some point is to get baselines, like, let's start getting baselines. I was women. Yeah, go. Speaker 2 (17:09): I was just gonna ask that you, you beat me to the punch. I was just going to say, so if someone is coming to me as a woman who is a runner and she had a child would say a year ago or two years ago, even how do I know what her baseline is? Speaker 3 (17:27): Correct? Well, what I do is I have them try to bring me film from prior to the injury. So these are for women that haven't had babies or like what they look like running prior to having a baby. And again, so many women have said to me, well, I leaked even before I had a baby when I ran. So then you might find stuff in their running form that might help explain that like Mabel's that go straight ahead? You know, things like that. But it does give us sort of an understanding of, is the running form that we're seeing right now, is that speaking to why they're having the injury, the, whatever it is, or is this the running form they've always had and they used to run without any difficulty. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so for me, that's how I started to create their baseline. Speaker 3 (18:15): Even if I can't see what they look like. And a lot of women will, like, when we talk about diastasis, like, you know, something like along those lines, which I might have to define for the audience, but some women will send me pictures of them in a bikini from like their early twenties. They're like, Oh my gosh, you're right. I actually had a line down the middle, but I never gave it any thought because my belly was flat. But now that my belly is not flat, you know? So it's like, that's where we can start to kind of get some comparisons for baselines. But one of my goals is to reach into the medical community, meaning the obstetricians and the midwives and the nurse practitioners. If any of you are out there is to say, let's start creating baseline. You're the first contact for some women they'll come in for a prenatal visit or something like that. Like, let's get some baselines, encourage them to take video. How will they're lifting how they're running? You know, how are they doing these things that they want to get back to afterwards so that they have a library of their own baseline? Like let's understand what they look like beforehand so that we have a better idea of how to help them find their way back. Speaker 2 (19:18): Yeah. Yeah. Great answer. Thank you. And so we've talked a little bit about this return to run after pregnancy. And I know you said that is, that's what people want to know from you. How do I go back to running after I had a baby and you know, everybody wants a protocol. If you could do this, then do this and this then do this. Right? Right. So when someone says to you, when can I start running after I had a baby, what is your answer? Speaker 3 (19:50): My answer is, and everyone hates it. It depends, but I tell them what it depends on. And so, and that's what it does get a little tricky in a situation like this, because these are some of the variables that I want to know. So my, whenever I get a question like that, my favorite is when I get it from a practitioner, what should I tell my patient who wants to get back to running? And I'm like, okay, well, my, my response to you is I actually wrote a blog like this. Like, and I always get, Hey, quick question. And I'm like, it's not a quick question. It shouldn't be a quick question. You know, did they have a vaginal delivery? Was it traumatic? Did they have forceps? Did they have a Syrian? Was it, you know, did they have bed rest? Were they on bed rest? Speaker 3 (20:29): If you're on bed rest, no, you're not gonna start running right out of the gate. You're like, you know, like there's so many variables there was it a complicated pregnancy? Was there, you know, what's been happening to them during the recovery process, have they, you know, are they having postpartum depression? You know, what's the you know, what are all these variables that they're experiencing? Where are they having postpartum depression? Or are they depressed or having baby blues, partly because they've lost their exercise program. Like what, what are all of these variables that we're looking for and what was their athletic capacity before? What is it now? Or what are their goals? Cause I like to make goal specific recommendations. So those are some of like, those are just that's scratching the surface, but I don't want to make it sound like this is an inaccessible population to work with because you don't know what all those things are. Speaker 3 (21:19): But what I usually talk to my patients about is I understand their goals and then I break them down and we start preparing for them. So my program for you needs to prepare you for what you want to do. And I need to understand the demands that you're up against. If you want to run, I need to prepare you for impact. I need to prepare you for endurance. I need to prepare you for power and possibly change of direction, depending on what you want to do. Trail runs and jump over rocks and things like that. Like I need to prepare you for what it is you're going to be up against. And part of that preparation is looking at your form, giving you great form twos, helping you build in new form, creating an interval program, getting you impact ready. Like there's, it's not just, I need you to do some curls and tell me stuff and some cables, and now you can run. Speaker 3 (22:10): And I think that that's, but that's a typical postpartum recovery program, but it isn't a prep for return to run. I need to teach you to reciprocate. I need you to strengthen into those reciprocal movement patterns. I need you to do single leg work. I need you to do single leg loaded work. I need you to do single leg impact work. You know, I gotta get you practicing some of those pieces. Then I know you're prepared. And if you're leaking or having pain or having an I give you these things we're looking for while we're doing the prep work, we're just not quite ready. We need to modify those things. Keep giving you opportunities to build capacity and strategies for the kind of work you want to do. I'm going to build that back into your system so that you're ready. And if you're, again, if you're symptomatic during all the prep work, we're just not quite ready for the actual events, but let's figure out what still needs to be tweaked and what needs work. You know what I mean? And then like, let's start with elliptical, let's start with hiking. Let's start with things that don't have impact. If we're not, if we're having symptoms with impact, like sort of really parse, what's still creating the problems so that we can troubleshoot that. And then, and then get you back into interval prep, walk, run. You know what I mean? Like it's yeah. So it's yeah. So that's running, that's more running specific. Speaker 2 (23:27): Yeah. So if you're not, it's not like, okay, the doctor gave you the all clear at six to eight weeks depending. So I'm just going to give you a walk run program. And that's what you will do. There is a lot more building because like you said you to monitor, you want to give people their program, you want to monitor their, their reaction to it, their symptoms, and then make the necessary adaptations that you need to make and use your clinical judgment. Because we know that there's not a whole lot of research around even returned to run after pregnancy. There's not a lot of research to that, correct? Speaker 3 (24:05): Yeah. We're getting, we're starting, we'll give credit where you know, we're trying, but we, yeah, we have a lot of work to do. We need to figure out there's a lot. We need to understand just basics. But, but like some of the things that I, I I'm trying to create like little things, people can remember, like prepare, then participate, monitor, and modify. Like just keep get like put those pieces together for yourself. Cause some people don't have access. That's the other thing, like if anyone out there doesn't have access for whatever reason to the practitioner, like you are, you have a lot of power by knowing what to monitor for knowing it's not normal to have pelvic pressure or leaking or pain while you're running. It's not normal. Like we want you to feel good while you're running and you know, just cause you had a baby, does it mean that you should be in pain and leak for the rest of your life? Speaker 3 (25:01): Like that's an incorrect, like I think we did. We say we're going to bust myths. Like that's a myth D please don't buy into it. So yeah, and I think I lost your question in there somehow. Did I? No, no, no, no. Boston my own head. No, not at all, but it is. It's like these, like what else? You know, and then follow the other thing I try to tell people is follow your success. If it seems to be that you're having more symptoms on the flats, but you're okay if you are going uphill, which is not unusual because it sort of helps you have a better running form automatically. Then let's walk the flats, run up the Hill. You don't like listen to what's happening, but learn how to interpret it. I think that's what I'm hoping clinicians can be, is really great interpreters of what's happening with the patient standing in front of them so that they can they can be better guides. Speaker 3 (25:54): I mean, that's really ultimately what we're doing. We're guiding people through their process because everyone's process is going to be a little bit different. It should be. And I would love for, I would w I went a hundred percent with lots of over the protocol, charge everybody 10 books now, but it doesn't exist because everyone is different everyone's path through pregnancy is different. That one study we have was so fascinating. All those women did something different to get through the pregnancy running. So, so we, we were just learning, right. We're learning about, about everybody's path through, through all this stuff. So how can we guide them? And I think monitoring modifying, progressing not gradually in a scared way, but in a smart way, like, Oh, we tried that. That was too far. All right. So backing off a little bit. Let's try this. Let's modify, modify, keep adapting. So I don't know. Now I'm going down a whole nother rabbit. Speaker 2 (26:48): No, no, no, that's it. This is all, this is all amazing. And I, and I really think the listeners will, we'll definitely come away with, you know, the, the monitor and make it adaptations and watch and listen. And also, like you said you sort of referenced Chris Johnson, sort of talking about the whole ecosystem. So again, I think it's important to when you are sitting down with this patient for the first time, you know, you have all these questions, but then your other questions are, well, how old, how old is your child? Do you have more than one? What are your responsibilities at home? Do you have a nanny? Are you a single mom? Are you working? What are your time constraints? Like, because all of that feeds into what kind of program you can give this person, because they may say, Hey, listen, I have 10 minutes a day to do some exercises. And, and what happens a lot is people think I only have 10 minutes a day. It's never going to work. Right. So how do you get around those with your clients? Speaker 3 (27:51): I usually use their exercise program is their fitness program, whatever it is, like rather than ask them to stop. I, and so, I mean, we're talking early postpartum versus someone who's maybe coming back two years later. Right? So you know, I try to integrate, my goals have always been, or my path has always been about building brain strategies, neuromuscular. So then I'm teaching them how to re-establish. Some of the, the, the, so let's talk early postpartum things get kind of funky in terms of how components of the central stability Central's control system operates. I'm working on helping them reconnect and implement it into their function. They have to take care of their kids. If you're lifting your kid, we're going to do it in a way that sort of pulls in the brain's going to use all these components to help them start, to learn, to be reintegrated into your movements, just movement going up the steps. Speaker 3 (28:50): Guess what steps is just like running. We're going to actually, if your goal is running, I'm going to make going up and down the steps with your laundry hamper or your baby as your prep for return to run. But we're going to do it super low impact. We're going to think it through. We're going to have to, like, we're going to rebuild that reciprocation through walking up and down the steps. We're going to, you know, match it to your function right now. But if you're two years out and you're, it's a different ball game, I'm going to use your running as your program. I'm going to adapt your running and keep you below your symptom threshold or make it look a whole heck of a lot like running so that you're motivated to do your, if your 10 minutes is spent running and that's your goal, you'll do it. Speaker 3 (29:32): Do you know what I mean? But if I say you got to lay down on the ground and do these rehab exercises that make no connection for you, you human, emotional, or your brain to your goal. You're not going to be motivated to do that. So I have always broken down their exercise programs, if they are CrossFitters or going to gym or whatever it is, show me three exercises that you like to do. Yoga, Pilates, whatever it is, what are three things let's implement these ideas and strategies under something that you enjoy, because I know you'll be compliant. And then they know you're listening. That therapeutic Alliance is there, like out of the gate, you want to help them get to their goals, Speaker 2 (30:11): Right? So it's, it's like, you can take things they're already doing and modify, adapt it, allow them, give them the tools they need to implement. What will help them in that exercise. And ultimately perhaps help them get back to their running or whatever it might be. Okay. Speaker 3 (30:31): Break it down, break it down and then build it back up. That's got it. That's a pretty straightforward way to do it with any athlete. It doesn't have to be running. But you got to know what they're up against. So I, if I am not familiar with something, I just say, show me, I don't know, show me what that is. And I don't know the words, I'm the first one to admit it, but I can't remember what that, can you just show me that and they'll sh and then you can break it down. Like, I think that's, to a lot of people's barriers to working with athletes is they don't feel comfortable with the sport. And then of course we have, you know, members of our community that say things like, well, do you lift, do you even run? I know. And it's like, like, it's really I don't, I don't surf and I will never, my first surfer when I moved to California, you know what I did, I looked at YouTube and I looked at, I watched, I watched videos. Speaker 3 (31:30): I looked, I tried to understand what are the physical demands of surfing, but that didn't mean I couldn't help him. You know what I mean? Like, don't get me started. So anyways, so I think that it intimidates because also like, that would mean that men couldn't work with female athletes too. Like, cause you don't have a vagina. Like that's, it's a, it's an illogical argument and it makes me mad. So anyway, surfing is I that's one of the examples that I use because I don't surf and I never will because I'm afraid of sharks. So we w w your job, our specialty physical therapist should be movement analysis. That to me is a pretty basic part of our definition. And I know that you can at least pick out efficiency. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can pick out efficiency and I use video, like crazy. Speaker 3 (32:19): Have them bring you videos of them. Weightlifting have them bring you videos of running, and then you can slow it down. Look at it, really carefully. Look at it at home before you stand in front of them, start to break it down, look online. What is a clean and jerk, and then ask them to send you a video of a clean and jerk compared them and start to pick out where it's different. There you go. You know what I mean? Like, I think that we create this barrier for clinicians to be able to participate in this kind of care if we make it unattainable because they don't actually participate in it anyway. Yeah. Speaker 2 (32:56): Listen, I could not agree more. I think that's the dumbest dumbest argument against a qualified physical therapist, seeing the person in front of them, because what if you're the only physical therapist for 50 mile radius? What are you supposed to like, sorry, pal. I'm not an Olympic lifter can help you. Speaker 3 (33:17): Yeah, it's so stupid. It's so stupid. Well, and it's really the other thing too then is it's also important to sort of highlight and carefully and kindly and respectfully say that's also how pelvic health is understood by so many. Well, it's not, that's not my department, but it's physically inside the woman standing in front of you. It's part of her department. So like, you may be the only practitioner for miles and you are the only person that understands the human body, the way you do as a physical therapist. It behooves you to start understanding some of these processes. When we start to talk about our differential diagnoses for runners is to understand what is happening, what, how might this have affected what I'm seeing clinically? And then it's not, it's not pelvic health, like in this movie way, it's pelvic health as a, it's a, it's a friend to helping you understand what's going on with these patients. Speaker 3 (34:16): So, so again, like in the same way that, you know, folks get scooted away from participating with female athletes or athleticism, we don't want to scoot them away from pelvic health because it's scary or UV, or it's not their department. Like we need to open those doors broadly and say, let's, let's skill everybody up. Let's equip everybody, the pelvic health community to understand fitness better, and the fitness community to understand pelvic health better. Like let's everybody come to the middle and not create barriers inside the community to those things. Like, let's appreciate the perspective that we each bring so that we can optimize the care for our patients who don't have resources to go down, you know, and with telemedicine creates new opportunities until unless we can't do it nationally. Right. Can we have a talk about that? Speaker 2 (35:08): Yeah. I would love to have a talk about that. Like maybe every, every licensing board across the country, again, it's so stupid because we take a national exam, but we're only licensed in anyway. Yeah. We could have, we could have a round table on that one. But you know, what you said is really important about so for the physical therapist or even other health professionals listening pelvic health, it does not mean that you have to be clinically prepared to do internal work, right? No, not necessary. And it just means that you're treating the musculoskeletal health of someone who happens to have a pelvis, which last I checked is everyone. And so, and so you should, you should be able to do that. You may not ha you don't have to be certified as a women's health specialist, but you can take get information, read books, watch videos, take courses so that you are competent in, let's say for the sake of this month, I'm runners treating a woman postpartum that wants to get back to running. Speaker 3 (36:25): Right. And there, and that's, and I think that that's partially, I mean, to just be fair, I think we all learn pelvic health in a very isolated way in PT schools. You know what I mean? So I think that there's been a huge change in the conversation in the pelvic health community over the years. And it's just starting to get out there in, in other ways. So it also behooves those of us. And again, like I find myself always serve in the middle of these worlds. Those of us who communicate it in a way that's relevant to like, let's be communicating in a way that is enticing to learn more. Like, I want those to gain those skills and and understand it in a way that is relevant. And I, and so, yeah, so we have a lot of work to do to the physical therapy educational programming to start to build it into models a little bit differently, so that it's under some of the other side a little differently too. Right. So it's just, we're all we're evolving, but it is true that it has classically been defined that way. Right. Like, right. And so I think so anyway, yeah. So I, I agree with you, there's a lot we can do there. And it's also like, can you at least talk about like, and to have some ability to do that is important, you know, so, Speaker 2 (37:45): Yeah. And, and hopefully people like yourself and maybe podcasts like this and other podcasts that are out there will really help clinicians. And non-clinicians, you know, your, your, your gal that, that just had a baby. Who's like, I, I don't know what to do. How, what do I do? Yeah. You know, I just had someone contact me today who is eight months pregnant and she's starting to have a little low back pain. And she said, you know, should I just go to the doctor or should I just go to any PT or what should I do? And and I was like, Oh, I'm so happy that she's reaching out for a physical therapist, you know? But a lot of people just don't even know that that's an option. Right. So, Speaker 3 (38:32): Yeah. Cause the messages, while you're pregnant, low back pain, you're pregnant, you know? And, and so it's really, there's a lot of education that needs to happen, but I do think you know, so much of it is around I'm trying to think of a good way to say this, centering the woman as like that, those concerns just because they're common. I hate the common. Not more, it's not, I hate that. I get it, but it's also like, it just always has been, but that doesn't mean that's how it should be, or it has to be moving forward. Like I think we're starting to get more female researchers, myself trying to do that too, to help, you know, we're trying to have females asking questions for females and to the credit of this one particular, he will never know. I should write him a note, but like I had a conversation once with a running researcher. Speaker 3 (39:28): And I was like, did you think about the fact that that lady was probably in continent? Like he had just done something at CSM and he goes, that would never have crossed my mind. And I, and he wasn't like a poopoo that couldn't possibly be a variable. He was like, it looks like you need to start doing some research. And it was, it was literally like the last nail in the coffin of me, like meeting that, like I knew I wanted to go that direction, but it was one of those, you know, those really landmarking conversations that just sort of are like, w wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm point. Knowing what I'm doing, like cooking you in the right direction. Yeah. It's to say, you know, this is you, you understand it. And I think that's, you know, again, you know, we talked a little bit about clinical utility and research, like trying to ask the questions that women need to ask, you know, so we need for your eight month pregnant lady, we got to get better information to her and to people that can care for her in her local community. Speaker 2 (40:25): Yeah. And, and again, you know, we talked a little bit about this before we went on, but, you know, asking the right questions, asking questions, asking simple questions. Because as, as we've spoken about the research for even simple, for simple questions is not there. So before we went on, Julie was saying, you know, we don't know what the pelvic does when we go to sit to stand, what is it doing when we're walking? We don't, we don't know what's happening in the pelvis and the pelvic floor and, and, and articulations above and below. So how are we supposed to know with certainty what's happened when you're running or when you have impact or jumping? So I think these, like you said, these smaller questions need to be looked at and researched, and then hopefully that body of work can build up to something much more clinically. Speaker 3 (41:15): Yeah. We need to sort of, we need to build in the basics and, and, and, and we're working like there are teams working on that, like we have, and we're using computer modeling as a way that this is starting to get there because we can't the issue. And also, I really want to make something super clear before we get moving. This direction is one of the things that I'm trying to be really careful about is not just talking about the pelvic floor, but to talk about pelvic health, because the pelvic floor is not the only gatekeeper that creates pelvic health. And it is a component of multiple body systems. And we need to understand that those systems affect the way the pelvic floor acts and behaves and the pelvic floor itself, you know, needs to be, have attention directed at it. But B because when we talk about just pelvic floor, I think it isolated away from relevance to other areas of care. Speaker 3 (42:05): So I just want to be clear on that. So but we don't know what its behavior is. Cause we can't see it. We can't put a, you know, it's just, we are, but we're starting to get new ways to be able to understand it better through a technology advances. So we're getting there, right? Like, so that's been a barrier to understand this better in in the dynamic, in dynamic activity. And we are seeing computer modeling as an option to help us start to understand this a little bit better, but that modeling is usually done on like an N of one. One of my favorite studies is a computer modeling study, but it's with something, I can't remember the title now off the top of my head, but it was something like, you know computer modeling of pelvic, the pelvic floor during an impact activity and an athletic female or something like that, or for female athletes. Speaker 3 (42:52): But then it literally says in the methods section that the woman they chose wasn't athletic and I'm like, well, crap. Okay. But I mean, it gives us, it gives us new insight. We'll take it. But I would really like to see it on someone who is an athlete, because, you know, we want to understand all of those variables anyways. So, you know, we're just trying to get there, but we haven't always, we can't visualize the pelvic floor in when we're watching a runner, but we can watch it's relationships. We know it's related to the glutes. We know it's related to the pelvis and the low back and the abdomen and diaphragm, we can watch all those other relationships. And we're really good at that in ortho, in sports medicine. So there's all of these interrelationships that we can watch and understand that a little bit better and differently, but you know, there's elements of what's going on there today. I am grateful to our pelvic health community for their capacity to treat directly. Speaker 2 (43:49): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And now, before we start to wrap things up what I'd like to ask you is for, let's say the clinicians that are listening to us right now what, what is your best advice to those clinicians who are working with, let's say female runners who are postpartum at any point postpartum, whether it be six weeks, six months, six years, what have you, Speaker 3 (44:22): Oh let's see. That's kind of a loaded question, but I think it would be to learn to ask questions like that would be my best advice, like, and ask questions that make you a little uncomfortable. You will get more comfortable with it. And understand that what you're trying to do is open a door of communication. Like create a conversation around this with your athletes. Here's what we know, which is not much, but my understanding is after you've had a baby or two, it affects your running form and you can hang on to those changes six weeks, six months, six years, whatever, wherever they are, unless we actually look at them. So I'm wondering how that as part of your medical history is affecting what you're doing, but along with that often comes problems with how you're activating your abdomen. Or you might have a public health consideration like leaking when you're running or painful sex constipation. Speaker 3 (45:24): Like there's other problems that women have that are under the public health realm. You know, and so so I'm going to ask you, so have them in your intake form, have them, you know, are you comfortable having a conversation with me about that part of your life and your experience? Cause I'm wondering how it might be affecting what we're seeing here. We understand that there's an interrelationship with learning. The research is limited, but, and if you're not comfortable talking to me, understand that, you know, it is something that I think might be a variable. And so I'm going to actually at least try to incorporate your pelvic floor and your diaphragm and some of those interrelationships into our programming. But I also have someone down the street that you can talk to a few, be more comfortable. I just want to open that door, like open the door to a conversation. Speaker 3 (46:07): Like if that, if nothing else, if they aren't comfortable, you also should be skilling up to understand these components. How do you, what should, what do you see in a typical postpartum runner start looking for navels, start looking, going to central park, whatever it is, start to pay attention to these other variables and serve to give fit, give it new. Meaning like I, cause I read a lot of running research and athletics like sports medicine research and the meaning that it's attributed that is attributed to it is often based on what we've understood in men or like a strength based model. Like, well, they're just there post your chain. Isn't strong enough. Well, my question is why, why would every freaking females post your chain the off? Let's put that. Let's start thinking about that. That's the kind of questions I want to ask. Like the why we're seeing that as our common, it's not just structure, it can't just be structured because women aren't all structured the same P S all women do not run it into your tilt. Speaker 3 (47:08): Like they don't, what do you mean? Come on. Nobody does the same thing. All of us. Like it can't be. So it's like with what we've put this meaning on it and if you're postpartum or you're pregnant, you're you have an anterior tilt. Well, we have to have research has shown us. That's not true. So it's like, and then I don't know how you can overstride and inter tilt at the same time. Like, we need to really think about that because, but we've always, that's sort of the lens. And so everything gets filtered through it to the point that we exclude, like other, like, instead of thinking, Oh, well, this can't be the explanation. Let's ask other questions. It's this becomes the definition. Does that make, am I making sense? A hundred percent. Yeah. So it's like, how do we start say, okay, that's we didn't get to the bottom of it. Speaker 3 (47:57): What other questions can we be asking? And and, and to start to look at women, not just women, men too. So it's, it's like, how can we start to ask our questions a little bit differently? How can we start to and really it's to look for the, why's not, what is, why, why in the world are we finding this with all of our female athletes? Could it be the way that we've trained them to suck their stomachs in all the time, since they were 12 and 10, you know, like how could that possibly affect an entire generation of, of participants, right. Let's start looking at this, you know, so yeah. So I love her. Yeah. I mean, we brought up Eric Miura prior, so we'll throw him a little shout out here, but I wanna, I, I heard him speak at a conference. Speaker 3 (48:45): I don't even know time has no meaning now, but and one of the things he said was I, which I love was talking about with research. When you read the conclusion and research, is, is there any other explanation that could have come to that same conclusion based on what you're seeing in the light? And I thought that's so smart because sometimes I'm like, Oh, yay. My biases, my biases, whatever affirmed. And, but I, but so he was referring to that related to the research, but I think one of the things that I keep trying to think through for myself, and I think would be a really wise way for all of us as clinicians to think about it is what are other reasons why they responded to my treatment? What are other reasons that they could be experiencing this problem that has nothing to do with what I've always understood? Speaker 3 (49:28): You know what I mean? And I am sharing my bias. Like when I look at a female runner, I'm not like, Oh, that calf looks weak. I'm like, Oh, wow. Look at their central control system. Cause that's, you know, that's my lens. So I, you know, so I want to be open to understanding all of that other stuff, but I already, I already learned all that stuff. And this piece is something that isn't being considered by a lot of permissions. And so, yeah, so again, we need to start just broadening our lens and I think we're broadening it. I hope to look at females as not just little men and the problem we have wider pelvises, estrogen, and Q angles. Like there's other things happening for us that, that are not explained by those things. You know what I mean? Speaker 2 (50:13): Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. This was awesome. Now, where can people find more information about you, more information about your, you have a running a female running course, where can, yes. Where can, where can we find all of that? Speaker 3 (50:32): I am at Julie PT and I have discovered that you can misspell my name and still find me. So it's J U L I E w I E B E P t.com. And I have, I do have an online course that was recorded from alive lives online opportunity. So it does have that flair that feel, but it also has the questions, which I love. And, but I also have lots of free resources in terms of blogs, videos. I do a lot of podcasts and have a newsletter to let you know about when opportunities are coming up. Like this one and what's coming up for us this next week to be a part of the round table. But but yeah, and I'm on all the socials Speaker 2 (51:19): You're everywhere. Thank you so much. You're all over the place in a good way. Not in a bad way, in a good way. So thanks so much before we sign off, I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone, and I probably asked you at twice or three times already, but we'll ask again, you can keep giving the same answer I want growing and learning. So that's true, but that's true. Yeah. So what advice would you give to your younger self? You know, what I'm going to share? Speaker 3 (51:49): It's funny. I was just thinking about this before we got on, but, and this is something that I've learned during the pandemic and and it's from Aaron Nyquist just, but he was referring to the spiritual, but I'm going to relate it to our walkthrough. Learning is instead of thinking of learning as this linear thing that I learned this, and now I know this, so that's stupid. I learned I'm making it on my hand. No one can see me. I forgot it was on a podcast, but instead of it being linear, which is so much of what ends up happening in our rural this dichotomy, Oh, well, biomechanics is stupid pain. Science is everything like, instead of it becoming linear in our thoughts is to think include and transcend. And instead of it being a linear line that it'd be concentric circles. And I was like, Oh my gosh, if I could be a learner like that, always if I had started my thought processes that way, like, wow, that would have been important for me as a person growing, but as a clinician growing to like that, instead of it becoming these battles that we get between these dichotomous, like VMO and like Karen, you remember BIMA, well, remember BMO, but instead of these like dichotomous thought processes, let's see, what can we continue to include? Speaker 3 (53:05): And then how do we transcend it doesn't mean that what we used to think was horrible and versus stupid. It's like, how do we keep building on that in concentric circles versus this linear thought process? So, yeah, so that was, that was just on my mind today. Speaker 2 (53:19): What wonderful advice it's like, it's like a reverse, it's like a reverse funnel. Yeah. Yeah. It just keeps getting brought. Our perspectives should broaden our questions should really never be answered. Like we should never get to the end of that. Do you know what I mean? And I just, I, anyway, it was a really just as so much has changed and, and it's been a really challenging year for all of us. I thought it was a, and we're headed back to a new transcendent, normal that I hope will bring a lot of changes for all of us. You know, I just, it was, I, I think it's a really important perspective as clinicians to, so I thank you so much for sharing that and thank you for spending the time today and tomorrow. I know, and tomorrow is our round table with you and Ellie and Chris and, and Tom. Speaker 2 (54:08): And I was saying like, gosh, to have the four of you on like one stage is like, Holy crap. I can't even believe it. So thank you for that. And so everyone you can find out how to join us all by going to podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. I mentioned it in the beginning, in the intro as well. So Julie, thank you so much. I appreciate you and appreciate your, your knowledge and your insight. Well, thanks so much for having me again, Karen. I appreciate it. And everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and stuff. Speaker 1 (54:38): Mark, thank you for listening. And please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media.

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Chris Johnson to discuss empowering runners through rehab. He is a Seattle-based physical therapist, performance coach, speaker, and multiple-time Kona Qualifier.    In this episode, we discuss: Is resistance training needed for runners? Are training errors to blame for running injuries?  How can clinicians guide the decision-making process around pain and return to running? Chris's best advice to be a running injury expert.  How can the profession of Physical Therapy be thought of as your best friend in healthcare. The importance of being present and curious.     Resources: Chris's Instagram  Chris's Facebook Chris's Website How to Improve Profits AND Profit Margins in Your Practice Webinar from New Health Running Round Table Talk    More About Dr. Johnson:  Chris Johnson completed his undergraduate studies at the University of Delaware, where he earned a bachelor of science with distinction while completing a senior thesis in the physical therapy department under Dr. Lynn Snyder-Mackler. Chris was a member of the varsity men’s tennis team, scholar athlete, captain in 2000, and recipient of the Lee J Hyncik award for excellence in athletics and academics. He remained at the University of Delaware to earn a degree in physical therapy while completing an orthopedic/sports graduate fellowship under Dr. Michael J. Axe of First State Orthopedics. Following graduation, he relocated to New York City to work at the Nicholas Institute of Sports Medicine and Athletic Trauma of Lenox Hill Hospital as a physical therapist and researcher. He remained there for the ensuing eight years until 2010 when he opened his own physical therapy and performance facility, Chris Johnson PT, in the Flatiron District of Manhattan. In May 2013, Chris and his wife relocated from New York City to Seattle to pursue a more active, outdoor lifestyle. In addition to being a physical therapist, Chris is a certified triathlon coach (ITCA), three-time All American triathlete, two time Kona Qualifier, and is currently ranked 16th (AG) in the country for long course racing. Chris is also extensively published in the medical literature and has a monthly column on Ironman and an elaborate youtube channel.   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:                https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full transcript here: Speaker 1 (00:00): Hey, Chris, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on in our month. All about running and running injury and running rehab. So thank you for carving out the time. Speaker 2 (00:11): It's fun to be back it's it's always a pleasure to connect with you. And it just snaps me back to New York city and I still don't know how we never crossed paths when when we were both there, but here we are, and I'm glad we connected and also happy women's history month. You're someone who's sort of spearheading a lot of great stuff in this space. And I think a lot of people, especially women look up to you and that you're a role model. So things that you've accomplished and continue to work on. Speaker 1 (00:47): That's very kind. Thank you. And now today we're going to do a basic Q and a with Chris Johnson. So Chris gets tons of flooded with questions and comments and things like that from emails to social media. And so I thought, well, let's see if we can make life a little bit easier, reach a wide audience and get some of these questions and concepts under control for you and out to the public. So let's start with a common question that you get is all is kind of around resistance, training and running. Do you need it? Do you not need it? I know that's a really broad question. So I'll throw it over to you around the the, the concept of resistance training and Speaker 2 (01:40): Yeah, and it's a, it's such a great question. I think that everyone's default answer is, you know, basically resistance training is a Holy grail for runners. And I do think it, it has its place, but I think that there are a lot of gaps in the research. And is it something that I prioritize myself as well as in working with the athletes I coach? Absolutely. But I think that anytime you're working with the runner, the primary goal is to get them into a rhythm with their training and to establish consistency of training. And then you can consider to start layering things in this is assuming someone's training and they're healthy. They have no remarkable past medical history. I, I think that, you know, the answer to that question differs especially if we start to get into master level runners who typically have a remarkable past medical history because most of these injuries and conditions go under rehab. Speaker 2 (02:41): You and I both know that as clinicians. So I think that a lot of the resistance training may just be cleaning up sloppy rehab that perhaps they didn't get around to addressing things at the tail end of the rehab. So there's a quote that I love, which is, you know, resistance training is really coordination, training under load. So, so yeah, I do think it has its place but it should be there to support our running, into build our capacity to run, but I've seen a lot of people get it wrong and they end up whether it's, if they're racing, they go into races where they're a little bit sluggish or they're carrying some residual fatigue. I've seen people get injured in the weight room if they're not perhaps if they're, you know, younger and more green. So yeah, I, I do think it has its place, but like everything you have to approach that, that runner athlete on an individualized basis and just understand where they're coming from. Speaker 1 (03:40): And in your experience, working with runners, what are the biggest barriers to resistance training for runners? Because not everyone has, you know, access to the same equipment and time and everything else. So what, what have you found to be the biggest barriers to resistance training? Speaker 2 (04:00): I think a lot of runners are intimidated by it unless they come from perhaps a multi-sport background where they've spent time in a weight room. I think right now with the pandemic, obviously resources and equipment or gyms are not as accessible or gyms opened in New York city right now are on a limited basis. Speaker 1 (04:22): They're open on a limited basis. I think you have to make an appointment a certain times and things like that. Speaker 2 (04:29): Yeah. And then I think that when people do get to the gym, they may not know what to do, and they may resort to something that they see on social media, some of the time, which might be fine. But I think that with running running has predictable performance demands. So it shouldn't be a mystery in terms of what we're trying to do. We're trying to challenge the calves, quads, lateral hip. And we're also we're not layering this in a ton. We're layering it in maybe twice a week on average. So but yeah, I think a lot of runners lack direction, and that's something that, you know, I try to put out a ton of content online. So people start to see how I'm approaching it. And I'm trying to essentially synthesize the literature and translate it to to just the everyday runner. Speaker 2 (05:18): And I think that there's also this element of rhythm and timing with running and that doesn't always get addressed through resistance training. I think perhaps a little bit more since some of Ebony Rio's research, but again, that's really in the rehab sector space talking about tendons, but I think that a lot of the TNT work or the tendon neuroplastic training work just has such salience to resistance training programs as well. So anytime, you know, people work with me, they're, they're going to get accustomed to using a metronome. It's just one more factor variable that I think that we can control for when we're prescribing. I Speaker 1 (05:58): Love the metronome. I love it. Love Speaker 2 (06:01): It easy. After a while though, I Speaker 1 (06:03): Give to everyone, even with my, even with my younger athletes, they get it, you know, and actually with those younger athletes, I'm talking teens, it's using the metronome, although they're like, Oh my God, I have to listen to this again. But it is actually good to give them a little bit of discipline around the, around the movement, around the exercise. But I love, I love the metronome. I have my patients like download the metronome, get used to it when you're exercising. I know it can be a little monotonous, but I think like you, like you said that with the research of Ebony Rio and others, I think it gives people, I don't know, like a, a little bit more discipline around their training. Speaker 2 (06:49): Yeah. I use it a lot when, if I'm giving someone calf raises something like a rear foot elevated split squat. If we're basically doing like a three zero three where it's like down on three seconds, up on three seconds without pausing yeah. It helps to maintain this rhythm. And a lot of the times I'll stop the exercise when they break that rhythm. Because it's telling me that, you know, maybe we're starting to reach the upper end of their abilities for that given exercise. Speaker 1 (07:18): Right. And we all know that three seconds to one person is very different to another. Speaker 2 (07:22): Yeah. Well, and this is what, you know, when Scott Morrison talks about anchoring and I just did that Instagram post on, you know, stop being awake or start to anchor. I'm starting to realize I'm becoming a dissenter. But you know, that's where the metronome comes in. And I've played with this so much. I mean, my, my neighbors probably think I'm crazy because I'm like out front with a metronome going, and I'm doing all these weird exercises. Well, weird to them. Speaker 1 (07:49): What sort of things do you implement to get over the barriers? Well, you just answered that. Anything else that you may implement to get over barriers to resistance training for runners? Like, like you said, in that runner who is very intimidated, maybe never used resistance training before. Speaker 2 (08:06): Yeah. I mean, I, a lot of the times when patients show up to my house, I mean, I'm working out of my garage. We have a space on our property, you know, when they arrive a lot of times I'm deliberately training. So they see what I'm doing and they see that this is a normal part of my routine. And then they get a lens into my racing background, yada yada. And so I want them to realize that this is something that is normal. And I think in a lot of running circles, and I think this is starting to change that it's not prioritized to the extent that it is. And maybe I'm just getting older because, you know, as a master athlete, it's amazing having dealt with some patellar tendon issues, like my body craves resistance training, where if I don't do it, I start to sort of get reminded. My knee feels so much better after I load it and load it relatively heavy. Now you have to be cognizant for reasons I mentioned before, in terms of like, you're not going to want to do a bunch of heavy squats. If you have a race coming up you can keep your body under load, but you need to be a little bit more calculated with your exercise selection as well as your dosage. Speaker 1 (09:12): Yeah. And, and that's where I think working with a coach or therapist or someone who understands understands one resistance training and two race training and how you can kind of blend those together is really important. And now sticking with training, let's talk about training errors. Can we just blame everything on training errors? Is that, is that an okay thing to do now? Or am I, is that not good? And I say, I say that with a wink for those people who are listening. Speaker 2 (09:40): Yeah. I mean, I think it's a convenient thing to do, but I think that I'm going to get myself in trouble here. I think it's a little bit lazy too. In, in, I think that having lived in New York city that you realize the life load factor, right. You know, there's different stressors in New York, between loud noises, you know, smelly things, you know, financial stressors in crowded spaces, you know, maybe your sleep has fallen by the wayside. So you may have a training program that's very sensible. And, and then all of a sudden you have something come up. I think to one of my, I'm an athlete who I'm working with right now, and this guy's just been just so tough and durable. And recently things have started to take a turn in a bad way. You know, he, he lost his mom. Speaker 2 (10:38): He's been having to contend with that. He's had some other job-related issues and and then he he's come down with the patellar tendinopathy and his training didn't change that much. And we actually dialed it back a little bit and it just shows it sometimes all of these other factors, you know, play such an important role in the overall being or totality of that athlete. So, you know, I, I, I think that we'd be much better off calling them ecosystem EHRs where perhaps there's a disconnect, but I think that we have to be careful, always blaming it on training. And I, I get the point, I think that, you know, from a, from a research standpoint, maybe the reviewers are requiring the authors to, to present it in that manner. But I just think there's a lot more moving parts. And I find myself having worked with a ton of athletes over the course of my career, being an athlete that you have to really be in touch with your ecosystem. Speaker 2 (11:39): And I don't know who first came up with that word. I know Greg uses it quite a bit, but I think it's something that, that is great to consider. And anytime I start working with an athlete, I have a conversation and it doesn't end during that initial consultation or phone call, but I'm saying, tell me about your life. What was it like growing up? You know, what, what was your relationship with food? You know, what kind of sports did you play? You know, were you in public school? Did you go to private school? What was college like if you went to college, you know, what's your current situation? Are you single? Are you married? Do you have kids? Are you a single parent? You know, I need to capture all this information and that's just scratching the tip of the iceberg in that conversation's never ending. So I feel like the more I know where people are in life, the easier it becomes to start putting down sensible workouts on paper and make sure when you put them down on paper, they go and pencil nodding. Speaker 1 (12:34): Yeah. I love that. Getting deeper into those questions and, you know, we had a conversation a couple of weeks ago with the surrounding a female athlete on clubhouse and Tracy Blake, who is just fabulous. I don't know if you're familiar with Tracy. She's a physical therapist in Canada. She's worked with a lot of professional athletes there, including their Olympic volleyball team. And she was talking about questions to ask. And I think oftentimes this is sort of floated over kind of skimmed over by a lot of PTs because we asked, tell me about, tell me what happened, what happened with your injury? Tell me what happened here, not the questions you just said. Tell me about your life. Are you married? Like Tracy said, you know, a question she always asks is, do you have children? Do you have pets? What, cause that gives you an idea. What are your responsibilities throughout the day? Yeah, Speaker 2 (13:29): I always say, you know, look, give me a lens into your situation and let the conversation unfold from there. And I think, you know, whether you're a physical therapist or coach, I think all physical therapists or coaches, whether they realize it or not, you know, you're, you're trying to basically capture that ecosystem. And to, to just have, you know, talk to people about, you know, I just have a candid chat with folks and from there, then we can start pulling levers. Speaker 1 (13:59): Right? Cause then you're getting a, really, a more holistic view of this person. And then you can say, okay, they have two small children they're working from home. Their kids are being at school, school, they're at home. They don't have the time to spend two hours a day between training and running and everything else. And how can you make things work for them? Is that about right? Yeah. Speaker 2 (14:25): And I think that any, any time a patient or athlete consults us, they're looking at us as an agent of change and the true agent of change is themselves. And it's trying to help them plot out their own course. And maybe you, you know, you're shining a light on the path here and there, or making sure that they don't step into a pothole along the way. But that's something that, you know, I find myself more and more. I have any expectations to, I don't do things to people. I sit there and troubleshoot with them. And, and I think that that's what we, as physical therapists are phenomenal with. And not only do we have the skillset, but a lot of times it most of us have positioned us to have the time to do that. And you can't rush that process. So but yeah, we're, we're not in a system that incentivizes that, you know, you don't get paid to talk to people, you get paid to do things to people. And that's the fundamental problem with, for the reimbursement structure, for people who are in network. I mean, you and I are a little bit spoiled in the sense that when we're providing care, it's just ourselves and the patient, but that's, I think that needs to be the standard or approximate the standard. Yeah. Speaker 1 (15:41): And isn't it like amazing when that aha moment comes as you're sort of talking through things like you said, troubleshooting, and the patient goes, Oh, wait a second. I can do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or, Hey, maybe that I didn't even think about that. Maybe that is contributing to XYZ. Speaker 2 (15:57): Yeah. And I, that's a lot of motivational interviewing and sometimes, you know, I was talking with a couple of people yesterday. Sometimes people who've already arrived, you know, if we're, if we're discussing surgery, you know, I think our goal is to always try to help people avoid surgery, but sometimes people are just dead set and you say, look, you know, I get the sense that you've really just you've arrived at the fact that you're going to have this surgery. Am I correct in saying that, and you know, if that's what you've elected to move forward with, this is your decision. What questions do you have about the surgery? You know, and, and then you may start getting into a conversation and say, Hey, can I, can I share my experience? You know, this happened to me with my clavicle. I was in Hawaii, we'll be traveling to Argentina to speak. Speaker 2 (16:44): My wife was pregnant. We had a little one, I was going to have to do a lot of physical tasks. And I'm like, I just need the surgery. I didn't have it on my right shoulder when I, my clavicle fracture. And I was just dead set. I'm like, I'm in Hawaii, there's a competent doc. This is not a super involved procedure, like a soft tissue procedure of the shoulder hip. And I had this and I could have been kicked myself for doing it in hindsight, but no one would have talked me out of that at the time. So sometimes people have to learn through their mistakes and sometimes that can be a tough pill to swallow, but that, that patient ultimately controls that decision. So sort of bobbing and weaving, but, Speaker 1 (17:25): And, you know, you just led perfectly into the next topic I wanted to cover. And another question that you get asked often and that's, and that is surrounding pain and pain and decision-making, so we, you, I feel like you led perfectly right into that. So let's talk about how we as clinicians and practitioners, where our role is when it comes to pain and decision-making for that client or that athlete. Speaker 2 (17:53): Yeah. It's it's one of the first things, if not the first thing that I discussed with people I did a book chapter for this it's called clinical care of the runner. Dr. Harris. Who's a physician at university of Washington was the editor. And he asked if I would read a chapter on training principles. And I essentially said, the first thing that we needed to discuss is someone's relationship with pain and what their understanding of it is and how they approach decision-making in around pain. Because if you're running, you're going to be dealing with pain at some point, you know? And and I think people have an inaccurate understanding a lot of the times. So, and I think sometimes we, you know, I'll use an analogy that Mike Stewart or you used which I think is brilliant. You know, sometimes when we're out training and we're driving through a school zone, right? Speaker 2 (18:48): School's in session, the lights are blinking, slow down. All right. Sometimes you may be driving through that crosswalk. School's in session lights are blinking and you have a crossing guard. Who's standing in the middle of the stop sign. Maybe that's a case of someone's dealing with the bone stress injury. So you need to really hate that. Other times you may be driving through that school zone. It's a weekend, no blinking lights proceed as is usual. And I think that's a good way to think about training, but you know, you and I both know that if someone has a lower limb tendinopathy, you know, we want to monitor their pain and understand how it's responding as a function of a particular training session, whether that's a run, whether it's a plyometric training session or a heavy, slow resistance, but we don't want to shut that person down in it. Speaker 2 (19:37): As much as we in our profession may be, high-fiving each other thinking that we're doing a good job of this. Most of the people that consult me, even people perhaps worked with me in the past for short periods of time. They still, when they experience pain, they assume damage and inflammation. And what do they do? A lot of times they, they they'll resort to taking anti-inflammatories and here we go. I mean, this is a, this is where things go South. So I think it's just important to say, Hey, what sense do you make of this? You know, what do you, what are your reservations? Are you okay working through some pain? And I think from there then the stage is set to proceed. But with a lot of, I've worked with a lot of master athletes and they're, they've had a history of lower limb tendinopathy. Speaker 2 (20:23): I know that with my left knee, that, you know, I, I worked through almost a year of pain, but I never stopped training. And I was just sensible in how I was staggering, my workouts to afford appropriate recovery time. And and also just knowing how college and synthesis behaves. So yeah, I think that people have a, a skewed understanding and it's also something very personal, but yeah, if you're working with athletes, it's a critical conversation to have. And I do think that this is where I know Ellie was on talking about bone stress injuries, that if you are remotely concerned about a bone stress injury, and it involves a high risk site, like zero out of 10 pain is the goal. Most other instances, I'm a little bit more cavalier, but if I know, if I see some of the signs that I would associate with the bone stress injury, especially if we haven't had imaging, I'm going to be conservative as hell. Yeah. Speaker 1 (21:19): And I think it's important to, to note that understanding the runner and that's where understanding the ecosystem comes in and understanding, especially for bone stress injuries, where those high likelihood of those injuries occurring. So it also like you have to know your stuff as well is what I'm getting at when it comes to runners and, and having that conversation around pain can be uncomfortable for that runner or for that person. Cause you may have to dismantle a lot of long-held beliefs. So how do you go about that with your, your athletes? Speaker 2 (21:57): I just asked everyone who who connects with me. I say, can you give me w what, what's your understanding of your situation? You know, and I think runners, a lot of times may not come clean if they're dealing with pain, because if they go to see a healthcare professional, they're going to be concerned that they're going to get shut down work. Perhaps they interpret it as a sign of weakness. If they're out on a group run, they don't want, want to be the one complaining. So I just say, Hey, you know, what's your understanding of your situation? And no one's ever asked him that. And that's when the conversation unfolds. So, and I think the way people respond is going to be different pending the person, the situation. But I think it's remissive anyone who's working with a runner or an athlete if they don't ask that question. I feel like I started to answer your question, but I don't know if I do. Speaker 1 (22:48): No, you did. That's exactly what I wanted. That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Cause I want the listeners to get as much of this like great little tidbits of information from you as they can. And you know, all of the questions, the questions to ask the patient that you've given so far, I think are great jumping off points for any therapist, regardless of whether you're working for, with a runner or an athlete. But that question of give me the, let me know, what is your understanding of what's going on? And that opens up a whole lot of doors for you. And then, you know, as the therapist, you have to be well versed in the science behind pain and, and how to talk to people. And, and of course it's a whole other conversation, but you know, I think what you're highlighting here is that you can't wing it. Speaker 2 (23:36): No. And I think sometimes, you know, I had a question from a third year DPT student who watched a presentation. I gave at some and they're like, Hey, I feel like I'm starting to ask the right question, but then I don't know how to respond and follow up. And and I think that, you know, you can't rush this process if you're in, if you're a young clinician that you're going to get better at this through reps, through life experience and just through sort of being in the trenches with people. But you know, the other thing I tell folks is I say, look, you're a smart person, you know? And I, you know, when I first acknowledge the fact, I think it's good that you're being proactive and addressing the situation, but left to your own devices. What do you feel like you, you need to do to get on the other side of this and they start to formulate a plan and I do, I don't need to do anything. Speaker 2 (24:27): I just need to pose these questions and say like, I think that's pretty sensible, you know? Are you okay if we nudge a little bit and you start to basically prepare them for the fact that this plan has got to be progressive, if we're talking about getting them back to running, because they have to get back to a low-level plyometric activity. And I just love these conversations. And, you know, people ask me, they're like, where you learn motivational interviewing. And I'm like, I lived in New York city for decade. I'm like, I just talk to people and I have no agenda. I'm just curious, you know, it drives my wife crazy. Cause if we're ever out in public this happened yesterday. I went to, I had to get a new watch because my watch crapped out and this guy was checking out some watches and we just got to talk to me. And my wife was looking over at me, like, where are we go? Speaker 1 (25:12): Your wife is looking at her watch, like, come on, Chris, get it together Speaker 2 (25:18): And things off the shelves. Speaker 1 (25:21): But it's true. I think that, you know, asking good questions, motivational interviewing a lot. Yes. There's a lot of books. You can pick any book on motivational interviewing and read it and it will definitely give you some insight, but it's the more you do. It's the more people you talk to and not just your patients, anybody, the more you talk to anybody, it will help you be a better motivational interviewer. And the more that you listen and like really listen and start to formulate it's practice. I guess you start to formulate your follow-up questions in your head as you're listening. And again, it's just practice, practice, practice. Speaker 2 (25:57): Yeah. And it's, it's fine. I think that it takes on a slightly different flavor as a function of, you know, what generation the person's coming from too, you know? So but yeah, it's just fun to help troubleshoot with people and to really get them to trust in themselves. Because most of the, the folks that consult me, I mean, they're endurance athletes, namely runners and triathletes these days, and they're going to manage their situation conservatively. Sometimes I feel like they need to be talked off the ledge. If they're going to opt for a more invasive procedure, if that's not really appropriate or perhaps an injectable of some sort. So, but yeah, getting people to trust in their body and and not drag them in for therapy all the time, you know, and I, I have to prepare people for that to say, you know, how do you anticipate this is going to go? Speaker 2 (26:49): And they're like, well, maybe I'll see you two to three times a week for six to eight weeks. I'm like, who's footing that bill. No, no, one's good. Yeah. So I say, you know, but this, this requires a lot of work on us on the back end because when I write an email, I mean, email, I wrote to this person yesterday, it was basically like, you know, two pages and cause it, kids dealing with the bone stress injury, the parents don't really understand the implications of it. He's going to be running competitively in college. And, and I think that he was under the notion that he was going to be back to running in four weeks. And I'm like let's talk about more like four months. And I lay this out and I'm like, you know, I know this is probably a little bit, you know, overwhelming, or you weren't expecting to hear this. What are your thoughts on this? You know, to engage him, to just know where he is after I've presented this information and he got the memo. But that's, that's a tricky thing about bone stress injuries is people fall under the, you know, the idea that they're just gonna take a couple of weeks off and plugged back in. Speaker 1 (27:49): Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's where you, as a, as a therapist and a coach comes in and helps the decision-making you're ultimately, you're not that runner, you're not that athlete. So you're not the ultimate decision maker, but your job is to give as much information and, and your professional opinion as to their situation as you can. Speaker 2 (28:14): Yeah. And I, I think that it traces back to that question is like, what are your expectations or questions around this surgery? I mean, this is a very involved procedure. They're putting you under anesthesia and they're cutting your body open. Never we'll frame it like that, you know, when I'm working with people. But you know, I, I rehabbed all of these people after these very involved, soft tissue procedures of the shoulder when I was in New York, coming from Dr. Nicholas in his staff. And yeah, I'm like, this is going to be six months to a year before you feel like your, your shoulder is like firing on all cylinders. Speaker 1 (28:47): Yeah. Yeah. I had, I had a complex soft tissue shoulder repair and it was a year anyway, we can go on and on when it comes to a patient mindset, fear, trepidation, everything else. I think that's for another podcast. But I think you definitely got across the decision-making process on behalf of us as a therapist or coach and how we can influence that process for the patient. Speaker 2 (29:12): Yeah. And I think that if patients aren't on board, I mean, if they are around muddy water where there's a sinister situation and they start sort of dilly-dallying, I think that we need to really put our foot down his therapist too and say, look, you know, you've consulted me and here are my recommendations or here's my professional advice. And if you're not going to take it, let's just, let's just part here. And sometimes we don't need to do that a lot, but I think sometimes we drag our feet as clinicians and we need to, we need to put our foot down if we have to protect that person from themselves, because we can't get tangled up in that mess. I can't think of the last time that's happened, but it has happened over the course of my career. Speaker 1 (29:57): So those, I mean, those are sticky conversations to have, but for the safety, I mean, our job is to protect that, protect our, our athlete, our patients. So if that is our job, then you have to have those sticky conversations. Yeah. And that's it. All right. So I think that was thank you for that conversation on decision-making and hopefully it sparks plant some seeds in our listeners here. And now we'll go on to two more questions that you usually, that you get the easy ones. You will we'll breeze through these too. These are easy. How do you become a runner running injury expert To how many times do you get that question? How can I do what you do? Speaker 2 (30:41): Yeah, I it's, I, I love getting it it's flattering. You know, and, and it's something that it was sort of, I looked back and all, I, there, there were a couple of defining moments in my life. And one was when I was told that I'd never be able to run again. You will never run again. Right. I heard that a couple of times from very world-renowned orthopedists. And I think that's what ultimately put me on a trajectory to do this. And I never ran competitively when I was younger. I probably should have been channeled into a little bit more of a, a running program, but I was always playing sport, different sports, you know, from skateboarding to soccer, to tennis, to baseball, to basketball, to lacrosse, to, you know, rollerblading snowboard, like you name it. I played it. And except football, just because my high school didn't have a football team. Speaker 2 (31:39): So I always relied on running to help me in sport. But I feel very fortunate in hindsight that I never started really formal distance running until I moved to New York city around like maybe 24, 25. But I, I think that when I started getting into triathlon is when I started working with a lot more runners. And I think when I started distance running, that was around the same time and it's just a fun bunch to work with. And I think that initially I was overconfident and it got to be frustrating when I'm like, geez, this is a healthy person. Like I would send them out. I'm like, Hey, I think you're doing good. And they would come hobbling home. Or they would call him and be like, Oh, I blew up on that run. And I'm like, why are these people blowing up on these runs? Speaker 2 (32:25): Like I thought they were doing a good job. And then it just really forced me to stare at myself in the face and say like, what do I need to be doing to really help these people? And, you know, I started reading a lot of the research. I started spending time around runners. I started speaking a lot with this fellow Bruce Wilke, who was sort of like a savant with running who unfortunately has since passed. But I started to really get a handle on running and not only on running, but just the mindset of runners, how they approach training how they've sort of just been dismissed by the medical community. Because you're like, Oh, here's a runner here comes another crazy runner. And then you start to realize that runner, when someone tells you they're a runner, you don't have other athletes. Speaker 2 (33:09): When you meet someone, you know, you could meet someone, you could meet a world-class athlete and they may not come claim that the fact that they play a competitive sport professionally, or they play a professional sport until you talk to them, runners like I'm here, I'm a runner, you know? And so they really stuff, they go through an identity crisis. So you have to look at this from so many different lenses. You have to understand the performance demands of the sport. You have to understand, you know, just running communities. You need to understand that these people's identity revolves around their running. So they become fragile when they're not running. So I just loved the challenge of, you know, addressing all these different factors and and it helps that I, that I'm still training and racing competitively because I sort of go through, I think a lot of the same struggles and challenges that they face so I can speak to them. Speaker 2 (34:01): But I think that if people want to go, go in on running as a young clinician, coach running is having a moment go all in, right. We saw an uptick and running with the, you know, with the pandemic. And I think that if you're going to work with runners, you don't want to say like, Oh, I do general outpatient orthopedic, orthopedic rehab. It's like, no, my whole practice revolves around running. You know, people are like, they come to me because they know that, you know unfortunately I've had a pretty rich experience in terms of my, my didactic training. And, you know, when I was getting reps under my belt in New York city. So I feel like now I can look at things through a very global lens when a runner presents and we can troubleshoot most of the time, I'm seeing people for one, maybe two sessions. But I think that that running rehab is challenging in a lot of different ways, but if people have a, an interest go all in, Speaker 1 (35:02): I think that's great advice. And I also really liked that. You just mentioned, Hey, I'm not seeing runners three times a week for six to eight weeks. You know, I'm not, this is not how I'm, I'm, I'm building my practice. And I think that's important to let people know, because I think a lot of newer graduates or students might be thinking, Oh, this is going to be great. I'm going to be working with people several times a week for six weeks. And then they're all better. Not so much the case when it comes to running injuries. Speaker 2 (35:31): Yeah. And their runners just seem to perpetually get these niggles and aches and pains. But, you know, I, I, I think it's doing a disservice because if you bring someone in, if you say, Hey, look, I need to see a couple of times a week for the next six to eight weeks. You know, someone told me that I'm like, man, I must have something serious going on. So I just say, Hey, look I'm not concerned. Anything sinister is present. I want you to be sensible. You're around muddy water, but carry on. All right. In calling me if you need me. And I think that they're like, wow, I've had people reach out and are, you know, this person told me they were running five to six days a week and their quads were a little bit sore. I'm like, Oh, you're good, man. Speaker 2 (36:10): You don't need to see me. You know, I said, and I asked him some, some more involved questions, but I'm like, you don't need to see me. That's a really empowering message, you know, because the person's like, Hey, I'm here ready to pay you. And you're telling me that you don't want to see me. I, one of a guy who's become a good friend of mine. He was dealing with some hip pain. He was in a bicycle accident and he had some films in between x-rays MRR because of a woman who who's pulling out of a parking lot, had collide with him for whatever reason. And you know, and I got a lens, you know, I saw his power profile on his bike. I saw the lifts that he was doing because we were training at the same facility. And he's like, I, I need to come and see you for physical therapy. Speaker 2 (36:52): I'm like, no, you don't. I'm like, I'm watching you lift, man. You don't need to come and see for, you know, let's, let's just chat. If we cross paths here and he's become a very good friend, he, he always jokes. He's like, you're the only PT you've told me not to come and see you. He's like all these other people are like trying to get me in and get me on these programs and tell me, I need hip surgery and PRP and yada, yada. So, but you need to know that nothing sinister is going on the flip side of the coin. Speaker 1 (37:19): Right. And that's where experience comes in and confidence as a clinician comes in as well. And that takes time. So you're not going to be, so what I'm getting is if you want to be a running injury expert, go all in, read the research, do the things, take the classes and take time. It takes time and leave your ego at the door. Speaker 2 (37:39): Yeah. And I think the patterns will become, they'll become pretty straight away in terms of where runners are getting into trouble. You know, where are these injuries are manifesting? And, you know, I, I think that most of it is being disconnected or out of touch with your ecosystem and not laying down programs that sort of reflect your ecosystem and realize that target is always moving. Right? Speaker 1 (38:03): Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Okay. Final question of our interview here. And again, it's, it's an easy one. So, so we talked about this ahead of time. This is an easy one. So, well, how do I even phrase this in looking at the profession of physical therapy, what can we do better to define what we do and kind of stake our claim on what we do as a profession? Speaker 2 (38:37): Yeah. I still am organizing my thoughts around this. I went into physical therapy because I thought it put me in the best possible position to help troubleshoot with people through a conservative approach. And I think that the challenge we have is physical therapy is a very tricky thing to define. And I think that where we're ultimately, and this is a quote from Jen Shelton, who was you know, in born to run, she was a young gifted ultra runner at the time. I don't know what she's up to these days, but she's she's a trip in all great ways, but she said physical therapists are your best friends in healthcare. And I think that we're well positioned to be the first line of defense because we're trained across such a broad through such a broad range. So, you know, you may see us working in cardiopulmonary capacity. Speaker 2 (39:40): You may see us working in wound care. You may see us working in a neurologic geriatric with geriatric population. You may see us basically with working with pro sports teams you know, pelvic floor. I mean, it's tricky when you have all these moving parts, but I, I don't think that we've defined who we are as a profession, to the extent that we need to. And and I think that's why a lot of other people end up defining us sometimes in good ways sometimes in bad ways. But I think that it's sort of like, you know, I'm in Seattle, I'm going to use a microbrew example. You know, you have run of the mill rehab. And I think some people lump physical therapy ended up, but physical therapy to me is sort of like a microbrew, right. We need to tell people what to think about it. Speaker 2 (40:34): We can't let them conjure up their own ideas. We need to really define who we are as a profession. And and I, I don't think we've done that yet. I think that we're, we're getting there, but I don't, I don't think we've done a really good job defining physical therapy. Cause if you ask people, you know, people are like, yeah, I've tried physical therapy and we know the same, the response, it's a heat ultrasound TheraBand. And it's always funny when people connect with me, they're like, this is so different from like what I expect to physical therapy to be. And I'm like, well, what did you expect it to be? And it was generally the response is what I just mentioned. And they're like, you just helped me troubleshoot and in sort of the seamless way. And, and that's what I think we do. Speaker 2 (41:21): We triage and troubleshoot. But we look at things through the people who I really respect in life. They're able to look at challenging situations through multiple lenses. And I think that that's how we're trained as physical therapists. And I think that that's why we're in such an incredible position to troubleshoot with people. So I don't know why you've got my gears grinding even more. And I, I, I think about this morning, noon and night is, you know, how do we better define our profession? So we don't let people conjure up their own ideas of what it is, because I think a lot of times if they've had a bad experience, that it becomes very skewed in physical just saying physical therapy doesn't capture it. Speaker 1 (42:09): Yeah. I agree with that. And so what can we do as a profession to change that? I agree it needs to be changed. And I agree we need to be the ones out in front talking about what we do and how we do it and why we do it. So when, when you think about that, what sort of ways can we be out in front and take control of the narrative? Speaker 2 (42:33): I mean, I think it needs to be orchestrated. And I think that that's, that's a major challenge right now. Because I think that is a profession we're a little bit more fragmented than, than one might think. So I think that we have to have a lot of people come together from different sectors of the field and have have a long, hard staring in the mirror and talk with each other to try and arrive in a definition for what we do. And I think it's a really challenging thing, but I think it's something that is very important, but I think also individuals like yourself where you start to represent the profession. You know, I try to do the same thing. I think that holds a lot of weight too. So I, I think it, you sort of have to take a multi-pronged approach. Speaker 1 (43:23): Yeah, yeah. So you have to take that 30,000 foot approach by having a lot of people from different areas come together and give that wide umbrella. But then from a micro position, individuals can also be out there and trying to, to change, to make a change. Speaker 2 (43:40): Yeah. And and I, I'm confident that we're going to do that. I don't know. I feel like I'm in my early forties now and I'm starting to become more reflective in life. Right. And and really think about, you know, a lot of things, one of which is a profession and, you know, I just feel like a pig in poop having landed in this profession because I'm such a diehard PT, but I also, like, I feel like the perception of physical therapy needs to change too. Speaker 1 (44:09): And, you know, I will say that I do see it changing slowly. I mean, this is a big ship to turn and I'm talking from a societal standpoint. And I say that because I see more and more in mainstream media, whether it be on television, print, blogs, podcasts, et cetera, that journalists are now reaching out to physical therapists. Whereas they would have reached out to a trainer, a chiropractor, a yoga instructor, or something like that when it comes to their articles on everything from training to, I just did an interview yesterday about pillows, you know? So it seems like, well, what, why would they reach out to a PT about pillows? You know, but it's nice that they are reaching out to PTs about things like that. And things about training and things about COVID rehab and, and long haul COVID patients, you know, physical therapists are now being part of that conversation. I'm seeing that more and more from main street, main stream journalists. So I feel like that's a good sign. Speaker 2 (45:12): Yeah, for sure. Speaker 1 (45:14): A good sign, for sure. And, and also showing that journalists are open to hearing from different groups. So I always say to physical therapists like contact your local newspaper, if you live. And, you know, I'm from a small town in Pennsylvania contact that local newspaper asked to write an article, ask to, you know, be a contributor, get onto your local news stations find, cause that's, that's the way the general public finds out, you know, on social media, there are some people like yourself and others that have great social media followings and are putting out great content designed for the consumer. But a lot of physical therapists on social media, probably myself included do social media posts for other therapists. So it's a little different, right. Speaker 2 (46:01): Yeah. And I think that's okay. And I think it's Speaker 1 (46:03): Okay. Yeah. But I think we, it could be broader. Speaker 2 (46:07): Yeah. I just, I think that when I work with folks and I, I'm not alone here, but when people start getting a lens into my thoughts on a particular situation, if they're like, Hey, I have some calf pain, they call me on the phone. They're like, they may be an athlete. And they're like, Hey, I have some calf pain, but a great example. This guy reached out to me the other day. And he was dealing with what he was told was an Achilles tendinopathy. And he was under the care of a physician and other rehab professional outside of the profession and I'll leave it at that. And when he came to see me, his primary complaint was he was starting to lose coordination in his left, lower extremity on the run. And he started to feel more disjointed on the bike. This isn't an Achilles tendinopathy. Speaker 2 (46:54): He may have symptoms that, you know, that are consistent, but that's not what's driving. So, you know, you start to think of, okay, well what could this be? You know, is there something going on maybe like from a differential diagnosis, you're starting to run through like, Hey, is he's telling you this, like okay, is this unilateral? Is that bilateral? You know, is there any loss of sensation, strength, power you know, is this, like if we just start asking a different set of questions, you know, could this be a runner's dystonia? Could it be something like multiple sclerosis, it could be ALS. So you have to, when someone says, Hey, I have this complaint, we're asking in terms of what's running through our mind and the questions we ask, they're very different. So I'm going to start challenging him from different coordination tasks. Speaker 2 (47:44): I'm going to take them through lower quarter screen. I'm going to get a lens into his running. You know, I'm going to understand how an Achilles tendinopathy would present if he's not having issues doing calf raises. And he's able to sit there and jump in place. I'm like, you're killing is, is pretty, pretty good, man. You know? So for whatever reason, there's this timing issue in his Achilles is probably seeing a different or an unaccustomed rate of loading that, that he's not withstanding from a timing perspective. So, you know, he's someone that probably ultimately needs to consult a neurologist, right? So why is no one told him that for a year? And they're telling him that he needs to do a more aggressive form of scraping and he's a candidate for a PRP, excuse my language, but that. Right. So this is where our role is just so critical because we sit, we spend an hour with people or at least, you know, a lot, and we, we can sit there and troubleshoot with people and really get them into the right hand. Why is no one ever he's like your assessment makes so much sense to me. And so many examples. Yeah, Speaker 1 (48:51): Many, many examples. Well, Chris, this was great. What a good conversation. I think there's a little bit of got a little bit of everything in here, and hopefully we answered a lot of w V a lot of the questions that you get on, on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. So thank you so much now, where can people find you? Speaker 2 (49:11): I can't tell you no, Speaker 1 (49:13): I'm going off social media now. Speaker 2 (49:17): Instagram is good. I'm just at Chris Johnson, the PT, and I'm in the process of revamping my website and that should hopefully be done at some point in the next couple of weeks. And and that's gonna really just, I think, make it easy to understand what some of my offerings are and how to sync up with me. And yeah, for folks, if, if you want to sign up for a crazy newsletter please join my newsletter. It's a little bit of reverence. So I'm preparing it now in, in good ways. So, Speaker 1 (49:49): And how can they sign up for your newsletter? That'll be on the website and Chris Johnson, pt.com or Zara and PT. Speaker 2 (49:56): Chris Johnson, pc.com. Yeah. Going back to my roots, Speaker 1 (50:01): Go keeping it simple. Right? Well, this was wonderful. Last question, knowing where you are now in your life and career, what advice would you give to your younger self now that you're, you're pondering, you're pondering life in your early forties. Speaker 2 (50:18): Oh, stop taking yourself so seriously be present with people, equally people, power, power, your phone off, and and be present with people. And for folks who are who are coming to see you understand that a lot of what brings about changes in what helps people are these non-specific effects, you know, during a clinical interactions. So don't feel like you need to have this gnarly didactic knowledge. That's going to come in time by continuing to read the research, spending time around other mentors or clinicians. You respect taking courses from them. But if you can just be present and engage with someone, take a genuine curiosity in their situation, that's going to do wonders and and yeah, take the pressure off yourself. Speaker 1 (51:07): Excellent advice. Excellent. And I thank you so much again, Chris, for taking the time out. And we will see you in a couple of days next in a week or so for a round table discussion, which I also think will be phenomenal. So thank you so much. Speaker 2 (51:22): Yeah. Thanks again for having me on Karen and keep up the great work. It's fun to, to just sort of follow your, your journey and calling me if I can do anything to support you. Speaker 1 (51:31): Thank you so much. And everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

In this episode, we have Tom Goom with us again to join us with our running injuries and running rehab talk this March. Today we will be talking about acknowledging types of persistent pain in our athletes or runners. He talks about the bigger picture on persistent pain and its other connections, differentiate this persistent pain versus series of acute flare ups, where we should focus the treatment, and navigating injured athletes return to their sport and many more.   Key Takeaways we mustn't lose sight of the bigger picture. And actually, I think sometimes we do need to acknowledge that it is more of a persistent pain state, and not necessarily a series of flare ups of acute injury. Gritting your teeth and pushing on through isn't always the right answer… we do need to know when we need to back off a little bit. Focus on getting you well and ready to race rather than rushing you to get through a particular event when you've got a whole life of running ahead of you. Try and see if you can recognize when you are looking at a more persistent pain state and to try and really get to know that person and the bigger picture and what's driving that Suggested Keywords: Pain, athletes, running, persistent, bigger picture, acute injury, symptoms.   More about Tom Goom Tom is physiotherapist and international speaker with a passion for running injury management. He has gained a worldwide audience with his website running-physio.com and has become known as The Running Physio as a result! Tom remains an active clinician committed to providing high quality, evidence-based care. Social media handles: Twitter: @tomgoom Instagram: @running.physio Website: Running-physio.com   Resources: Running Injury and Rehab Webinar NetHealth Webinar   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hey, Tom, welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited to have you on today. Speaker 2 (00:06): Thanks for having me back. I really enjoyed it. Last time we took proximal hamstring. Didn't we last time it was a good chat Speaker 1 (00:13): We did. And now this time you are part of the month of March and this month we're talking all about running injuries and running rehab. So what we're going to talk about today is persistent pain in these athletes. And I know this is something that you're seeing more and more of. So let's dive in what let's talk about as physical therapists or physiotherapists. Do you feel that we're acknowledging these types of persistent pain in our athletes or in our runners? Or are we just thinking, Oh, well, you know, they have this tendinopathy or this strain and it's just keeps recurring. It's just like a, it gets better and then becomes an acute injury again or this back pain. Oh, same thing. It, it kind of goes away and comes back. So what, what is your opinion on that? Are we acknowledging persistent pain in these athletic populations? Speaker 2 (01:20): Yeah, that's a good question. I think maybe we D we do look at it a bit more, like you're saying, we just kind of see it as a sort of repeated acute injury may be large rather than seeing it as a persistent pain problem. And I think that's because in part, when we see people with persistent pain, part of our, of our advice and our management is for them to be active. So if you've got someone to come see seeing you, that is actually already sporty, they're already active that, you know, you kind of think, well, what else needs to be offered here? And I think sometimes we don't really think about the sort of psychosocial practice in sporty or active people, because they're not obviously fear avoidance, especially if they're keeping their sport going. So we, we tend to go down the route. That's perhaps a bit more biomedical isn't now we looked at biomechanics, we look at strength and conditioning and these all can be valuable, but we mustn't lose sight of the bigger picture. I don't actually think sometimes we do need to acknowledge that it is more of a persistent pain state and a, not necessarily a series of flare ups of acute injury. Speaker 1 (02:24): How do we differentiate this is persistent pain versus a series of acute flare ups. Speaker 2 (02:30): Yeah, I think there's going to be an overlap between those things. We know that people with persistent pain that isn't necessarily stable with change can change quite a lot. People go through periods of quite severe flare ups as well. I think it's about sort of looking at the bigger picture and looking at the connection between things like pain and load. So in, in an acute injury situation with something like tendinopathy, quite often, there is quite a clear load pain relationship. It hurts when I load it. It doesn't hurt when I don't, I'm in a more persistent pain state. We might actually see that that relationship becomes a lot more blurry that the pain may well flare up when load hasn't changed or the pain may remain present. When there isn't a great deal of loading going on. So we start to see a bit of a breakdown of that connection between load and pain. And perhaps you start to see other aspects influencing symptoms, you know, lack of sleep, stress, fear, et cetera. We see other sort of types of behavior creeping in there as well around maybe avoidance coming in. So now they are backing away from their sport. So I think that's something we need to have a lookout for particularly that lack of relationship between load and pain and then exaggerated pain response as well. Speaker 1 (03:48): And when we're looking at these more sporty athletic people are runners how do they differentiate from say maybe our non sporty or non-running population? Speaker 2 (04:01): I think that there will be some definitely some, you know, some crossover between different people in different groups. And I really would, you know, w I use the term athlete, but I, I have a really broad definition of that. Someone, someone who wants to be regularly sporty and active fits that category for me. So I'm not necessarily necessarily when I say athlete referring to an elite athlete, competing at a high level, this, this can be people that want to be running three or four times a week, that really comes in that category too. But I think they can have, you know, similar concerns to someone that's not sporty around pain and damage, for example. So they might have similar concerns there. They might both have quite high life load which is a term I quite like this, somebody mentioned in one of my courses recently. Speaker 2 (04:49): So, you know, this is where you've got lots of stress going on with, with work and family life this kind of Highlife load that plays upon your pain. And they may also both groups have poor recovery. So, you know, athletes may not be brilliant sleepers non-athletes may not be brilliant. Sleep is too, they might not get much downtime much emotional recovery. So there can be quite a lot of of overlap. I think perhaps where they differ is they may have quite different goals. So I think it's, I see Mike might have wanted to go back to running half marathons, marathons, ultra marathons, and beyond potentially. So that might be quite a different goal to non-athletes that want to be more functional with day to day activities or lower level activities, perhaps like walking distances and perhaps something that we do see in athletes. Speaker 2 (05:38): That can be different though. Again, we see this in non-athletes too, is they may be a bit more inclined to push through pain. Most of us that have done sports at any level will know that pain is quite often a normal part of sport. And to some degree we do have to work with it. If, if we stopped every time, something we we'd never really, really do sport for very long, but this isn't necessarily always the right approach, gritting your teeth and pushing on through. Isn't always the right answer. And it's not always obvious that that's the case, but sometimes actually we do need to know when we need to back off a little bit. I'm an athletes particularly really highly driven athletes may not be quite so good at recognizing when they need to back off. Speaker 1 (06:21): Yeah, that's for sure. Especially if, like you said, they've got this goal of, I want to run a half marathon and marathon or an ultra to be able to, to have to abandon that goal due to pain, persistent pain or injury is, can be very devastating. Right. So how do you, how do you navigate that with your athletes and with your runners, especially with a more persistent pain, how do you navigate that? Very, I would say very sensitive goal or topic with these, with these runners or athletes. Speaker 2 (06:58): Yeah. It's not, it's certainly not easy. I think it's it can be challenging. I think wherever possible, we want to try and invite them to review their expectations and goals. So that it's not necessarily us being prescriptive and saying, this isn't realistic, or you're not going to achieve this, but if we can help them have slightly more fluid expectations of themselves and slightly more realistic goals, the ideal world then is that they then come around to the idea that perhaps this marathon they've got on the horizon, if it's not realistic for them, that they can set a different goal with it. And th this is one of the things, again, sometimes with, with higher level athletes, certain personality types is that being, being able to persist is a good skill, a good good thing to have, you know, and you need it when you get to sort of modulating 19 in the marathon and your legs are heavy. Speaker 2 (07:50): And, you know, you've got to keep going to hit your target. Tom, you need that in the time. You've got to have that level of persistence. And, and for that to be at least a little bit rigid because you you've got to, if you're going to achieve that goal, you've got to keep going, but to keep going at a certain time. So at times that rigid persistence is useful, but if you apply that all the time when circumstances are changing and your expectations are rigid, it doesn't really work very well. So for example, with the situation's changed, you're now in quite a lot of pain, you're struggling with day-to-day activity. This marathon is, is a lot closer now than, than we would, would like it to be. Ideally we have to try and encourage them to be a bit more fluid there and say, okay, well perhaps what we need to do is change that goal a little bit. Speaker 2 (08:37): Let's push it a little bit further down the line, give ourselves a bit more time and helping them see the positives of that decision can help. So you all often say to them, well, you know, if we can, if we can move this, you know, a few months down the line or let's go for a half marathon or a 10 K, it's going to take the pressure off you. You're not going to feel like you're constantly chasing your tail because you're trying to catch up with the training. You're not able to do. You're going to be able to focus on the rehab side of things. You're not going to feel so much pressure, and we can really focus on getting you well and ready to race rather than rushing you to get through a particular event when you've got a whole life of running ahead of you. Speaker 1 (09:15): Fair, very fair. And, and I think that's great for clinicians to hear, because I think that wording is very sensitive to the, to your patient and also gives them the goal gives them that aspirational goal that they can eventually get to. So I think that wording was great. Thank you for that. Now here's a tough question. And, and I don't know all the answers to this one, but in your opinion, and in your experience, what do you feel may be driving persistent pain in these runners or athletes? Speaker 2 (09:53): Well, we had us, that's a good question. Isn't it? A million dollar question and I would acknowledge I don't, I certainly don't have all the answers with this, and I don't think the research does yet either because it's an area, you know persistent pain in athletes isn't brilliantly well researched. So I think there's a lot that we can, we can learn about this, but there's a few things that would, I think, would spring to mind here. So I think beliefs are important. So and this is, can be beliefs around what the pain means. And then they, you know, what the pain means is if it's, if it's a sign of damage if they think it means they need to stop their exercise altogether, how they feel their body's gonna respond to exercise when they have pain that continuing to run, for example, will that be more harmful for them? Speaker 2 (10:38): It can be around beliefs around training too. A lot of people will feel that unless they're pushing themselves a hundred percent in every session it's not worth doing. So that can be quite difficult then for them to pace themselves and modify their training because it kind of all or nothing really. I think one of the things that I'm realizing more and more over the years working with with people and athletes is if they are quite heavily reliant on the sport for their mental wellbeing, then that can have a bigger impact too, because they might be using that, that sport to help them with their mood or anxiety or depression. So if they can't do their sport, it increases the impact of the injury. And I think it increases the fear associated with that because they're losing this coping strategy, they're losing physical fitness, they start to worry about the future. Speaker 2 (11:27): And I think maybe that links in with pain science, because it increases the threat that this injury has, and that has the potential then to have a knock on effect in terms of the pain and increasing pain severity and things. And a lot of these things are interlinked. I think training behaviors go hand in hand with that, you know, tending to push yourself hard all the time, boom, or bust, things like that. I think there's also a lot of stuff that we might not necessarily, we see like negative messages from others. So other other athletes, sometimes coaches, health professionals, unfortunately I'm so pumped. Sometimes we can be responsible for that life. I've treated lots of runners. Who've been told that they should never run again, for example, by various different health professionals. So we need to be aware of that. I think Google might have a lot to answer for I don't, I'd love to know. I think you've been Dr. Google doc to goo exactly. I don't, I don't know many situations where someone's been worried about something and put it into Google and felt better. Speaker 2 (12:31): What you find is the worst case scenario from it, which does amplify, you know, it does amplify people's worries. And that's actually something as a clinician, I would check in with your patients about what what'd you do when you worried about this? Did you go and Google it? What'd you find when you Google it? How does it make you feel? Because quite often they'll find the worst case scenario and I feel a lot more worried. So we want to discourage them from doing that, come to us. If you've got questions about your care, that's what we're there for really. So there's a lot of things that also impact of the injury, perhaps not being fully addressed. So you know, looking beyond the kind of physical impact of the injury, but the loss of the social side of the sport, the loss of their identity around sport the effects, as we said, it might have on mental health. Speaker 2 (13:18): There's lots of other things that go alongside the injury that often don't get talked about. And if they're not addressed, I think they can amplify it as well. And then the final thought I would add to this is perhaps if not had really particularly appropriate rehab it may be, it's been very focused on pain and not really focused on function in maybe that it's not been progressive and it's not really looked to address their rehab needs, lots of stretching and foam rolling and, you know, ice and, but no real kind of planning and progression in that. Speaker 1 (13:50): Okay. So that leads me to the next question as clinicians, where should we be focusing our treatments? Good segue there. Speaker 2 (13:57): Yeah. I like the connection. You've done this before, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think he's got to start in the first session with trying to develop an understanding for that person, if we can help them to, to understand their injury. And it takes time to build on that, but really make that part of that first session and give them the opportunity to share their story in that first session and also to air their concerns. You know, I really think we want to make the focus of these treatment sessions on the patient and their needs, not necessarily a kind of a list of things we need to tick off to do in a session because there is actually research showing that quite often, people whose needs aren't really identified we can be quite dismissive as clinicians. So we want to get in there right in the early, early stages and say, you know, what would you really like to, to from, from your treatment? Speaker 2 (14:52): What are your concerns? What are you particularly worried about here? What would you really like us to help with? Because we can start with that. I think that helps us form a good, strong connection. We can really help them understand the injury and build on it from there. I think that alongside shared goal setting, I think big PA plan of I'm a big fan of collaborative working you know, so you're working towards their goals. How can we help them achieve those goals together? And again, get a good idea of those in the first sessions. And it is part of the reason I really love working with rhinos is because many of them have a goal. Even if it's just, they want to get back to running 5k, you know, great, brilliant. It's a measurable goal. We can start the planning towards that pretty much from, from session one. Speaker 2 (15:37): And then we do want to have some progressive rehab because they're all gonna be psychosocial factors. In many cases, we've talked about, you know, beliefs to address perhaps poor recovery load management to talk about that quite often, there are physical needs as well. So we need to address those if there's a lack of strength or control or range and address them in a progressive way, as opposed to just loads of stretching and rolling, and then we can start to do a graded return to sport when, when they feel like they're physically and psychologically ready to engage in that. Speaker 1 (16:10): And what are some, some examples that maybe you can give of the types of diagnoses or the types of patients that you're seeing coming to you with persistent pain, you don't have, we don't have to go into, you know, the specifics of how you treat XYZ, but what are some things that you might be seeing in your patients coming to you with persistent pain? Speaker 2 (16:36): So I, I do specialize to some degree in tendinopathy. So we will see a lot of patients with long-standing tendinopathy lots of patients with proximal hamstring tendinopathy, because that's particularly the area I've researched in. But it will say Achilles tendinopathy issues as well. See people with low back pain and hip pain as well, falling into this category people with persistent patellofemoral pain syndrome persistent bone stress injuries, like medial tibial stress syndrome. So it's do see quite a mix. And, and many of those will have been treated first and foremost in quite a kind of biomedical model. I think, Speaker 1 (17:16): Yeah, so I think I just wanted to ask, cause I think it's important that clinicians out there hear like, Oh wait, you can have a persistent tendinopathy problem. You know, you can have like, Oh, I, I wasn't aware. I thought, you know, after let's say proximal hamstring after a year of rehabbing, if that kind of comes back, Oh, it's probably just like a muscle strain. It's probably not that tendinopathy again or, or not again, but it continuation of that. Absolutely. Yeah. And Speaker 2 (17:50): To give you a clinical example then, because we talked a little bit about how the connection between load and pain can be blurry about how that may, we may see an exaggerated response. So to give you an example of that proximal, hamstring, tendinopathy patient that I've been working with who will not be able to sit for more than maybe 30 seconds because that will really cause a flare up in their symptoms. Now we can see then that's a, that's a really exaggerated pain response. And the average person sits for somewhere around six to seven hours a day. So not to be able to tolerate even 30 seconds of sitting because there's pressure around that that tendon is, is an exaggerated pain response. And that person's pain will fluctuate not necessarily in line with load. So there'll be days where her symptoms are much worse and she doesn't really know why it's not because she's run a long distance or done anything different. Speaker 2 (18:53): The fluctuations in activity levels might be small in the range of a few minutes here and there. And yet the pain response is really exaggerated. And again, I talked about sort of beliefs and things go going into, you know, going into this area. And when we talk to this particular person about her beliefs, you can see she's very concerned that sitting damages the tendon and therefore that adds to the threat value associated with the city. She's very fearful of sitting when you ask her to do it, you can see she's really reluctant, but also we need to acknowledge why it really hurts. It's really hard for a long time. So there should be no judgment and our pie, we should be reckless. Yeah. This is really difficult. This is having a huge impact on this person's life. Can't if you can't sit down and even to have a cup of tea or to watch a move at the end of a long day, what should we eat dinner? Like that's big. So I think we have to recognize that as a persistent pain picture and with aspects of tendinopathy in there that we can manage, but just seeing it, like you say, as, Oh, it's just another flare up of the proximal hamstring tendon. We were missing that bigger picture, I'd say. Speaker 1 (20:01): Yeah. And that was a great example. Thanks for that. And now, you know, when we talk about running, we talk about athletes. So one thing they all want to do is they want to return to their sport. So can you talk to us a little bit about how we navigate that, how we prepare these people to return to their sport and what that, what that sport may look like? Speaker 2 (20:24): Yeah. I think, I think maybe we start, if we can, by seeing if we can reduce irritability a bit where possible. So if we think back to that lady, I was talking about Verrier to boost symptoms at the moment. So if I go straight into a greater return to running, I think that's probably going to be a little bit too much to start with. So in many situations we may we say, okay, let's see what we can do to reduce the symptoms and irritability helping someone understand their pain and that it's not a sign of damage can help helping them work out a list of things that may help to reduce their pain. Maybe particular exercises that help simple things like, you know, using heat or ice if necessary, but trying to give them strategies and work with them. So they've got a little bit of a list of things that can turn that, that pain volume down a little bit, and we're placing them in a bit more control, reducing that threat value. Speaker 2 (21:17): And then we can start to work towards that graded return to sport. And again, if we want to plan together because we really want the person to be in the driving seat and us maybe just helping, you know, being a bit of a satnav along the way to keep them on track. So we've had this recently really lovely runner I've been working with who in the first session said to me you know, what she'd like to do is first of all, build some strength then increase her cardio fitness by bringing in a bit of cycling and swimming. Then she wanted to bring in some, some impact and some plyometric exercises before doing a graded return to running. And I thought immediately, brilliant, this is fantastic. This person has a great plan. Speaker 1 (21:57): And they find this woman, Speaker 2 (22:00): I met wonderful one, and this, this is someone with a lot of experience in sport. Who's also studied a sport of science, so knows the topic really well, but that's a fantastic plan. Let's go with that plan and just help the person with their plan there. So, and we might follow quite a similar plan to that for, for patients. You know, we try and calm things down where we can, we build some strength to try and address some of their physical needs. We bring in some cardiovascular exercise to build some fitness up. We start to introduce impact because it can build impact tolerance, but it also is often a a way of developing some power. So perhaps some plyometric exercise to restore power, which is often neglected in rehab. And then we start to do a graded return to running and that's then where we got to try and work with them around their goals and also work with them around pain. And that can be a bit of a barrier. Speaker 1 (22:53): Yeah. And so how much pain is acceptable? How much is too much? Yeah. Speaker 2 (22:59): Like our pain scales you know, sort of scoring pain out of 10. And I, I would say there's actually quite a few studies that have done that quite successfully. So I think there's some value in that. But what we've talked about with these pain groups is that the connection between load and pain, isn't very clear and the pain response is exaggerated. So if we're guided purely by pain, we are going to struggle a little bit, I would say with these patients. So I would tend to say that the patient needs to decide what they feel is acceptable, and we provide some, some guidance. And we need to try, and if we can look at longer term trends, then now patients quite understandably might get very focused on day-to-day pain fluctuations, but it's actually more the long-term in pain over the, over the weeks and months that we're a little bit more interested in. Speaker 2 (23:49): And we also perhaps need to recognize that there are almost two slightly separate goals here, improving function and improving pain. If you're seeing improvements in function and pain, hasn't changed, that's still a win because you're doing more. In fact, that's quite good when, because you're doing more and your pain doesn't get worse, but patients often won't see that as a win because understandably they may want that pain to go away, but we can often folks first will say, okay, well, let's start with what you feel is a manageable level of exercise. Let's work with it consistently. First of all, and then gradually build as long as you feel the pain is, is an acceptable level. And sometimes what we tend to see then is over time, they're able to do more and more, and then gradually that pain does subside because they're able to do more. Speaker 2 (24:39): They're more confident they're starting to get their life back. The threat value of the pain is starting to go down, but that takes quite a long time. So I think quite often, wherever possible, placed the focus a bit more in function and just save the patient a few phone that feel that it's manageable. It's acceptable. This is fine. If it's too much, if it's not manageable, we'll dial it down a little bit, but we want, if we can to stay consistent with exercise, because otherwise we're going to have a lot of beam, bus tear will build you up and stop they'll drop and stop. We want to just see, can we keep you ticking along, even if it's at quite a low level Speaker 1 (25:13): And do you have your patients keep a log or a journal or some way so that they can see, Oh, I was doing this. I started with Tom on March 1st and here it's April 1st. And this is what I was able to do Marsh. Now this is what I can do in April. My pain's around the same, but look at how much more I can do, or maybe my pains a little less. Or do you, how do you keep track of all that? Do you give that to the patient to help them with their own sort of locus of control? And are you using the pain scale? Are you saying well, what is your pain March 1st? Let's compare that to April 1st. Let's compare that to March 1st. Speaker 2 (26:01): Yeah. I would try and see if we can monitor that goal activity because it's important to be able to see that they're improving and they're progressing towards their goal. If you've got quite a specific goal, like running a 5k in order to get that, you've give it a C you know, how, how far you're able to run. And that's the simplest question. How far can you run now? But that can be it could be steps for day. If someone's wanting to build up their walking, it could be minutes rather than miles with any activity, really. So I think it's a good idea to try and monitor what people are doing. I do, I do use the pain scale a little bit. It depends on, on how comfortable the person is with it, whether they like using that. I tend to perhaps make it a little bit more simple and just say, is your pain mild, moderate, or severe sort of break it down into those into those three sort of different categories, really. Speaker 2 (26:58): But the thing is with pain is there's so many different aspects of it. Are we talking about average pain day to day? We talking about peak pain. What did the pain get up to is it's at its highest, we're talking about pain frequency. So how often you've had that pain during the day, are we talking about pain distress, which I think is almost a separate thing. How distressing are you finding that pain? So if you're especially worried about it, that pain often will be more distressing, even if the severity isn't necessarily higher. Do you see what I mean? So I think, I think where possible we focus on the golf function and we, we try and take that focus off pain a little bit because as well, you know, if patients are monitoring it every day, that drawing that focus on pain every day, and they're asking ourselves, how much does it hurt? Speaker 2 (27:47): Even some patients have no one used the term morning MRI. I used to get up in the morning and do it, do a sort of stretching test on his Achilles. That was what he called his morning MRI to test the Achilles out and see how he thought it would be that day. We don't really want to do that. To be honest, we want to focus on what your valued activities let's really try and bring them back in, build those up and keep a kind of a little casual, casual notice of pain, let pain tell us if it's too much, if it's breaking through, into your attention and in telling you it's too much, that's probably when we need to act, if you're looking for it, if you're, if you're kind of really questioning, is it worse today? I'm less concerned about it. Speaker 1 (28:26): Got it. Yeah. So you don't want them to, you don't want your patients to be waking up and be like, wait, do I feel, do I feel more pain today? Weight you're you're well aware that you have pain. Speaker 2 (28:38): Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I think that calling is focusing on the pain as well. It's quite, it's quite a normal thing to do. I think we've kind of pathologized it a little bit. But I think actually it's understandable for people to do that. There's another layer of context around the pain and what it might mean and what that might mean for your, for your future. So I'll give you an example from myself. So I have I have psoriasis and I have nail bed changes with psoriasis and that increases the likelihood of you developing cirrhotic arthritis. So a couple of weeks ago and surfing on Twitter and someone posts a link to a research paper that says new studies shows link between nail bed changes and severities, psoriatic arthritis. And I start thinking, yeah, my fingers are a bit sore today, you know, and that's one of the areas where you can get psoriasis, arthritis, changes in the joints and the fingers. Speaker 2 (29:41): And then I throw it comes back a little bit later that day and for a few more days afterwards, and now I'm sort of noticing like achy thumbs hands are a bit stiff in the morning. And if I allow myself to keep focusing on that and measuring that and worrying about that, it would be understandable that that could become really quite a worry for me, because then you think, well, is it cirrhotic arthritis? That's been, that's known to actually affect the joint and perhaps even damage the joint. And if I've got nail bed changes, that means it can be very severe. And what impact would that have on my life? And these are all just normal things that we have as, as people, as health professionals that know quite a bit about pain. So I think we can acknowledge for someone who's not a health professional. Speaker 2 (30:25): There's probably a lot of that going on, particularly the pain's been there a long time and pains is a real nuisance because it can, you can kind of like stop worrying about it. And then, then you have the pain and it kind of reminds you and goes on about you and that can start worrying prices over again. So it is hard. And I think sometimes it's health professionals, we think like, well, I talked to them about their pain and I reassured them that pain doesn't damage tech. But that if you think that that is enough to wipe out that concern, we are. Yeah, but we may need to be consistent with that message several times. And we might need to encounter that worry coming up several times and to try and help someone contextualize their symptoms and to see that not what they're fearing, but what really is going on. Speaker 2 (31:18): And to look at a bit the now of how symptoms are. So with my hands, you know, I don't have any of the classic signs of cirrhotic arthritis. I don't have swelling. I don't have a loss of joint range. I've actually been tested for psoriatic arthritis and it was negative. So it was trying to contextualize it and see the reality is I've just turned 40 and I've got slightly stiff fingers. That's the reality. So let's focus on the now and what is real for you now and not what you fear might be coming up in the future. Speaker 1 (31:47): Yeah. And that's something that I say to myself every time I wake up and my neck's a little stiffer sore, you know, my upper back feels a little sore instead of my, what I used to do is, Oh, okay. I better not go to work today. I better just relax. Let me get a heating pad. Let me just, I don't want to do anything. I should probably just lay down. And these are all the things I used to do. And so now when I wake up or if I do have a flare up of neck pain or something like that, now I'll just say, okay, I know nothing is seriously damaged. I have the MRIs to prove it multiple. And you know, these are just things that I have to continually say to myself. And I think I'm pretty well versed in, in the science behind pain and, and even working with people with persistent pain. I mean, I do it every, but even for myself, I have to continuously sort of recite these mantras to myself in order for me to get through the day when I have a little bit more discomfort or pain. So the struggle is there, you know, and I think imparting that and telling that to your patients, especially your runners with persistent pain. I think that can be very powerful. Speaker 2 (33:07): Yeah, absolutely. And, and recognizing, as I said, the bigger picture of knowing the person and, and the things that make them make up them as a person. And if they are, for example, running to their mental wellbeing, what, what, what is the, the thing that, that they're running to help? And how does that link to their pain? Are they running to help anxiety? In which case are they someone who is perhaps going to struggle with negative thoughts about chain, and they're going to be drawn into ruminating about those negative thoughts about pain, and they're going to be looking for reassurance that those thoughts, you know, jumping on Dr. Google, I'm finding actually it makes it worse because they see all the negative outcomes they're afraid of laid out on a web page. So if they are someone with, with that, then they, they may need more, more help with that. They may need to, you know, you may need to work with a mental health professional to help them work with those thoughts and to find ways perhaps to not get drawn into that ruminating pattern and to look for other coping strategies, we show it to them. The long-term can be useful because they're less reliant and upon the sport, because they actually learn perhaps a slightly different relationship with that, with their thoughts and from that, then can help that their mental wellbeing. Speaker 1 (34:22): Yes. I agree with that. And Nelson, before we kind of wrap things up is there anything that we missed or that maybe we flew by a little too quickly that you want to elaborate on? And if not, what would be your best advice to a clinician that is working with AF that is working with people with or athletes with persistent pain problems? Speaker 2 (34:54): I think in terms of things we might have missed, I just would say that there's a, there's a nice paper from Halon as torn in 2017 that's well worth a look, which is, is actually looking at things a little bit more in terms of pain in athletes. And there's, there's quite a nice quote in that that I'll just briefly read now if that's the case. So they say even low level inflammation, for example, linked to sleep deprivation, ongoing stress and load exceeding the tissues capacity can reduce the athlete's mechanical nociceptive threshold sufficiently to make normal mechanical demands of sport painful. So that sort of Lincoln into this bigger picture stuff saying here, actually, if we're not recovering enough, or the load is excessive on the tissues, it's actually going to have an effect potentially on sensitivity know nociceptive threshold. Speaker 2 (35:49): So this is where it's quite important for us to see the bigger picture. They also say in that paper that the, the link between tissue change and pain is thought to reduce over time. So if you've got someone with very persistent symptoms, years' worth of pain, you should already perhaps be suspecting that this is probably not just going to be driven by the tissues. I mean, when is there ever a situation where pain is, but, you know, it's probably going to be a bigger picture here that we need to identify. And I think that's probably one of the key messages to take from what we've talked about. Hey, really, you know, you, you start right with the first question is perhaps just to, to try and see if you can recognize when you are looking at a more persistent pain state and to try and really get to know that person and the bigger picture, and what's driving that because then I think you're going to get better results with them and then try and see if we can work gradually towards their goals and just keep them on track with it and give it time. Speaker 2 (36:45): It will take time, you know, this, the patients I'm seeing, we're looking at at least six months, probably a year of working together because there's so much to work through. I think we sometimes say, Oh, we reassured them about their pain. Give them some exercises away. They go, it's not really like that. You know, it's going to be lots of ups and downs. We're going to have to stick with them for a while and just keep chipping away, but you can get some really good results with people and you can get them back to the sport that they, that they love. And that can be a really, really big thing for them. Speaker 1 (37:13): Yeah. that's a great way to to end our conversation here. One, one question, what was the, who's the author of the paper from 2017? Speaker 2 (37:26): I think it's Hamline at all. I believe it was in the but I can find a link to it for you to put in the, in the show notes, if you would. Speaker 1 (37:36): Perfect. That would be great. And I will look it up as well. But thank you for that. Now before we finish our conversation, where can people find you? If they have questions? Speaker 2 (37:48): Yeah. Come and say hello on on Twitter, I'm at Tom goo or an Instagram ad running dot physic. Also I've got my website, which is running-physio.com. So yeah, come and say hello, ask questions and things. So it's good to chat. Speaker 1 (38:03): Perfect. And last question. What advice would you give to your younger self knowing where you are now? And I know we've, you said this before is, and I have to say something different. Now you get a chance to give yourself a second piece of advice. Speaker 2 (38:16): Oh, good question. Oh now that I'm thought 14 spending a bit on top, I'd, I'd say really enjoy your hair while it's there. Yeah. now I don't know, in all seriousness, I think I would probably sort of say you know, really make sure that you kind of value value, that things are important in life friends and the family, you know, always, always try and put those things first because ultimately they're, they're the things that are most important for us. And I think a lot of people already know that and I've learned it, especially during COVID, but I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, focusing on family and friends and things first you can still have a very fulfilling career and things, but I think that that's the important, the important stuff. That's what makes, makes life great. Really Speaker 1 (39:08): Excellent advice. Well, Tom, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast again and sharing all this great information with us. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for having me back here. And it's been really good pleasure, pleasure, and everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

In this episode, Founder and Host of Entrepreneurs on Fire, John Lee Dumas, talks about the 71000-word, 17-step, 273-page success roadmap that is his first traditionally published book. Today, JLD talks about the launch of his book, The Common Path to Uncommon Success, and we get to hear a few of the 17 foundational steps to success, and we hear about identifying what we want to achieve, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “The online experts in this world... will lead you to believe that the path to uncommon success is “secrets”, “hidden”, maybe it’s “complicated.” It’s none of those things. All of them [successful entrepreneurs] have taken what has turned out to be a very common path to uncommon success.” “Freedom is one simple word, but it’s so hard to attain.” A few of the 17 steps to uncommon success: Identify your big idea. “So many people are living and acting in a weak, pale imitation of somebody else’s big idea.” Discover your niche. “Identify, within your big idea, an unserved opportunity.” Create your content production plan.   Suggested Keywords Uncommon Success, Roadmap, Process, Entrepreneurship, Wealth, Prosperity, Freedom, JLD, Entrepreneurs on Fire,   More about John Lee Dumas John Lee Dumas is the Founder and Host of Entrepreneurs on Fire, an internationally-acclaimed award-winning podcast with over 1 million monthly listens and 7-figures of annual revenue. To date, he has interviewed over 3000 of the world’s leading entrepreneurs, including Gary Vaynerchuck, Barbara Corcoran, and Tony Robbins. His first traditionally published book, The Common Path to Uncommon Success, is an amalgamation of the lessons learnt from the over 3000 interviews he’s done. Get the book: https://uncommonsuccessbook.com   To learn more, follow JLD at: Facebook:       John Lee Dumas Instagram:       @johnleedumas Twitter:            @johnleedumas YouTube:        John Lee Dumas   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hey, JLD welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you on Speaker 2 (00:06): Fired up to be here. Thank you for having me and listen. You've got a beautiful cat. I've got a beautiful dog. They might make a Paris's in this interview who knows Speaker 1 (00:15): It is possible. And I have to say, this is like a full circle moment for me, because I have always as a podcast or looked up to you for your podcasting, for your show entrepreneur on fire 3000 interviews. I mean, that is, that is amazing. And, and for all the listeners out there that is not easy to do. And now you've got a new book coming out. Your first traditionally published book. How exciting is that? Speaker 2 (00:47): Listen, I'm fired up. This is a combination of the 3000 plus interviews I've done over the last decade. I've interviewed some of the world's most successful entrepreneurs over the years, and I've learned from every single one of them. I mean, every one has been my mentor and I've been able to distill their genius down into what has turned out to be 71,000 words of my blood, sweat, and tears. Cause it took me 480 writing hours to write the 71,000 words, the 273 pages that comprise this book. But I couldn't take a single word out. This is a definitive 17 step roadmap to financial freedom and fulfillment. So if that's interesting to you, this book is your guy, Speaker 1 (01:34): Which is amazing. So it's the common path to uncommon success, the road to financial freedom and fulfillment. And you know, you, as we know, have been very successful online entrepreneur, but let me ask you a question. Sticking in that online entrepreneur have people been lied to by the quote unquote experts in the online business world. Speaker 2 (01:59): Listen, the online experts in this world. There's a lot of fantastic ones that are doing amazing things out there. And there's some not so fantastic individuals out there who will lead you to believe that the path to uncommon success is secrets. It's hidden. Maybe it's complicated. Listen, it's none of those things I've seen over 3000 successful entrepreneurs and I've interviewed over 3006 successful entrepreneurs. And I've seen that all of them have taken what has turned out to be a very common path, a very common path to one comma success. Now, by the way, it's hard work. It is absolutely hard work, but it's a common path. It's not secret. It's not hidden. It's not complicated. It is a very, very clear, very common path. And it's not something that, again, these so-called gurus that will try to, you know, sell you some key for $1,997 and 97 cents. Like, listen, that's the answer. The answer is clear. The content is out there. I've done over 3000 interviews. You have individuals like Karen and others who have done interviews. There's great content out there to be had. And I could tell you right now, just go listen to all 3000 of my episodes, but that's tens of thousands of hours or is distilled down into one book, 17 steps, 273 pages. And it's there for you. That's the common path to uncommon success. Speaker 1 (03:29): And when you look at success and we look at financial freedom and fulfillment, what, what do we really want to achieve here? What does that mean? Speaker 2 (03:38): So this is what I've really identified. That individuals really desire in life. Freedom. Freedom's one simple word, but it's so hard to attain, but think about it when you're free every single day to wake up and to do these three things, do what you want, where you want with whom you want. What else is there in life? Like when you can literally say, I get to do what I want to do, where I want to do it with whom I want to do it. I have that freedom. That's happiness, that's success. That's what people want. And this is what so many people have been able to achieve. You know, unfortunately, a lot of people don't think that's possible and they will never be able to achieve as a result. But those type of people don't listen to podcasts like this. So I know I'm talking to the right individuals right now. It's there. It's possible. It's, it's, it's a, it's a common path to your version of uncommon success. Speaker 1 (04:38): Now, you know, you say in the book, it's a 17 step roadmap. Most people will give you five steps or maybe eight steps, right? So what, what is the 17 step roadmap? If you can give us a couple of little snippets or details. Speaker 2 (04:54): So here's the process it's like when I interviewed these 3000 plus now individuals, and I've been able to really boil down and distill down the core foundational elements that all successful, aren't new or share in common. There were 17 of them. Like I wish there were 18 or 16. I like even numbers, but listen, it was 17. I couldn't take one away. I couldn't add one. It was just simply 17 foundational steps. And I was able to put them in a chronological order. And before me, I had the 17 chapters of the book and a step-by-step format, 17 steps to financial freedom and fulfillment. And let's go over a couple right now. Number one, this is where most people get it wrong, by the way, identify your big idea. Keywords, your big idea. So many people, Karen, they are right now living and acting in a week pale imitation of somebody. Speaker 2 (05:53): Else's big idea. They're like, Oh, look what Karen did or John. And they're having success doing these things. Let me just do that. And then they wonder why they're not successful most because they're a week pale imitation of those people that are trying to copy. They're copying somebody. Else's big idea. That person, it's their big idea. It's their zone of fire. That's why they're successful because they're living in their zone, a fire. You need to sit down maybe for the first time in your life, by the way, and really give yourself the time, the space, the open bandwidth to really come up with and identify your big idea. And your big idea is out there. Your zone of fires out there and chapter one, listen, it's not just words on a page. There are exercises. I teach you how exactly you get to your big idea. Speaker 2 (06:42): And that is a super critical part. That by the way, most people will die. Never even knowing what their big idea is because they never took the time to sit down and identify it. And it doesn't even take much time, which is the sad and scary part. But here's the thing here. If it was just that simple to identify your big idea, it would be one chapter in my book. And there were just be one chapter in my book. There's 17 steps. So there's a lot more to it than I than identifying your big idea. Let's just jump to step two. And then we'll skip a little ways ahead to, to show you any part of the book as well. But once you have your big idea, people are like, Oh my God, I'm so excited. Like I have my big idea. Let me go all in on this. Speaker 2 (07:22): That's a huge mistake because guess what? Your big idea is a great idea. And other people have had it too. And there's competition. That's out there crushing your big idea, which is a good thing because that's proof of concepts. That means that your big idea really is proof of concepts, but you can't right now launch against entrenched competition that's out there. So instead you go to step two, which is discover your niche. That means you're going to identify within your big idea, an un-served opportunity, a void that needs to be filled, that you can be the best solution to that real problem within your big idea. That's how you win. Like Karen, when I launched a podcast, that was just this broad idea, but then I was like, well, I'll launch a business podcast. That's a little more niche. Okay. It's still kind of broad. Speaker 2 (08:14): There's a lot of people there. Well what about an interview business podcast? Okay. There's like seven or eight other interview business podcasts. What about a daily interview? Podcasts of the world's most successful entrepreneurs, zero other competition. The day I launched entrepreneurs on fire, it was the best daily podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. It was the worst daily podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. It was the only daily podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. Like can't you see, like, that's why I won at such a high level. How can you be the best? Sometimes it means being the only, or it means niching down till you look around your competition is terrible. So you can kill them immediately. You can beat them up. That's how you discover your niche. Then of course, there's step three, four, and I take you all the way through and beyond. Let's skip forward right now to step seven. Speaker 2 (09:09): So every chapter in this books, an average of a three to 5,000 words, this chapter I wrote and I wrote and I wrote, and I wrote 13,500 words. By the time I finished this chapter, step seven, chapter seven, creating your content production plan. That is why we've won financially at such a high level because our content production plan is amazing. And I say that because it took us 10 years to get here. It's stunk at first, but now it's amazing. And I poured it all into this chapter and it is phenomenal and it's listen, it's not easy to emulate, but it's all there for you. And you will see after reading this chapter, why we're winning at such a high level and frankly, you know why you might not be because likely your content production plan is nothing in the same realm of what we have just like ours. Speaker 2 (10:06): Wasn't in this realm, obviously when we launched back into, you know, almost 10 years ago now, so that's just a glimpse of three of the 17 steps. And we have actually a bonus chapter called the well of knowledge. And it's a really cool chapter is chapter 18, a bonus chapter. And that's just the best pieces of advice, mentorship, inspiration, motivation that I picked up over the years. I just dropped it into this chapter. And this meant for you to really just take your ladle, dip it into the well of knowledge every now and then when you need it, when you need a little bump, a little boost. And man, that chapter is really cool because it's not meant to just read all at once. Like go there, consume it. One passage to passage, get the kind of inspiration you need, then get back to work. That's the process Speaker 1 (10:56): Amazing. Well, I mean, I don't know about anyone else listening, but I am so excited to get my copy, which it releases on March 23rd. So tell us, tell all the listeners here a little bit more of the details of the book launch so they know where they can get their copy. Speaker 2 (11:11): So listen, all the magic is going to be happening over at uncommon success. Book.Com, uncommon success book.com. You can head over there. You'll see the personal endorsements from Seth Godin, Gary Vaynerchuk, Neil Patel, Erica Mandy, Dorie Clark. You'll see a video of me describing more details about the book. You'll see. The first chapter is there for free just to read, to consume it, to see kind of like, well, how my writing process is plus the five bonuses that come with the pre-orders. So do not wait until March 23rd. You want to pre-order this book because it is amazing what we've done for these five bonuses. Just one of them, by the way, I'm to your door. All three of my journals, the freedom mastery and podcast journal. I'm literally shipping to your door at my expense. Well, drop them all. If you live in the United States of America, outside of the U S I'm going to give you the digital pack of all three immediately they're beautiful fillable versions. They're awesome. And there's four other insane bonuses. You can learn more about those other bonuses@uncommonsuccessbook.com. Speaker 1 (12:21): And I, I ha I will say congratulations are in order already. Cause an Amazon I checked today is already a number one bestseller on Amazon and it's not even out yet. And for the listeners, I am going to be giving away five copies of the book and you'll find all the details on my Instagram page. So check that out. Cause I will be giving away to five lucky winners, five copies of this book, because if you just go on to the website and read even the first chapter, you're like, man, I get it. You know, and I, and I also love the fact that you're vulnerable, that you're saying, Hey, this didn't happen overnight. And that's what a lot of people think. And that's what a lot of people sell. And it's so refreshing to see people out there experts like yourself saying it's hard work, it's work, but you can do it. So you're welcome. So I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And one more time, where can people find all the info, Speaker 2 (13:21): Uncommon success, book.com, check it out a lot of great stuff there. And once again, much appreciated. Speaker 1 (13:30): Thank you so much. And everyone thank you so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

In this episode, sports physical therapist specialist, Dr. Alli Gokeler, talks about motor learning. Today, Alli tells us about the process of motor learning, how patient autonomy is advantageous to rehabilitation, and how to motivate patients. How does Alli measure motor learning outcomes? Alli elaborates on his on-field rehabilitation model, and the importance of incorporating cognition in ACL injury rehabilitation. Alli talks about RTS from a motor learning perspective, how to continue motor learning on the field, and he gives his younger self some advice, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways Alli defines motor learning: “In order to acquire motor learning, you need to practice. If you don’t practice, you can’t learn something.” “The learning process itself cannot be measured directly. It’s only something you can measure indirectly.” “What motor learning should result in is: it should lead to relatively permanent improvement of motor skills.” “Be careful how you interpret this process. Quite a few clinicians have a tendency to provide feedback because they intuitively try to correct a patient.” “Be a little bit patient with your patient, because learning takes time. Don’t interrupt the learning process too soon.” “Motor learning, as well as learning a language or math, is a non-linear process.” “One of the strong drivers of learning is intrinsic motivation.” “We provide our patients with a significant amount of autonomy, which means the patient gets a certain level of control over the exercises.” “Providing autonomy during rehab enhances learning.” “Around 70% of people prefer to receive feedback after a good performance of an exercise. What happens in most clinical situations, with all good intentions, we typically give corrective feedback, which typically means you didn’t do something according to the standards of the therapist. This may affect their motivation.” “If you look at the brain activity of someone that is instructed to do something, or the brain activity of a person who has some control over what they’re going to do, you have completely different brain patterns. When you give them some control, they are much more engaged, and this is a prerequisite in order to learn something.” “If you want to be certain that learning has taken place, you need to measure, otherwise you can’t be sure that the patient has learnt something.” “If you’re good at something, it’s not challenging anymore. If it’s too difficult, then it’s overreaching.” “One-on-one training is not what’s needed for a football player. They are team athletes.” Alli’s on-field rehabilitation model: Neurocognition: Reaction time, decision-making, selective attention, inhibition and working memory. Motor component: Strength, range of motion endurance, and speed. Sensory: Visual, auditory, and environmental factors. “We need cognition during our motor control, and if we only work on pre-planned activities, we miss something from the on-field situation.” “An ACL injury isn’t just a peripheral injury, but it’s also a neurophysiological lesion, and that needs to be considered in rehab.” “With colleagues that work with paediatric patients, some of the motor learning principles that they use could be very beneficial for us working with orthopaedic, sports-related injuries.”   Suggested Keywords Motor Learning, RTS, PDCA, ACL, Rehabilitation, Neurocognition, Therapy, Physiotherapy, PT, Training, Injuries, Sport, Wellness, Health, Recovery, Injury-Prevention,   More about Dr. Gokeler Dr. Alli Gokeler has 28 years of experience as a sports physical therapist specialist. In 1990, Alli graduated with a degree in Physical Therapy from the Rijkshogeschool Groningen. Following his graduation, he worked in both the US and Germany as a physical therapist. In 2003, he earned his Sports Physical Therapy Degree from the Utrecht University of Applied Science. In 2005, he started a PhD project at the University Medical Center Groningen, Center for Rehabilitation. He is a researcher-clinician and a clinician-researcher with a passion for multidisciplinary injury prevention. He has over 40 peer-reviewed publications, and he regularly gives lectures worldwide. In his free time, he loves to do mountain biking.   To learn more, follow Alli at: Facebook:       Motor Learning Institute Instagram:       @motorlearninginstitute Twitter:            @Motor_Learning YouTube:        Motor Learning Institute Website:          https://www.motorlearninginstitute.com ResearchGate:           https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alli_Gokeler   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  Speaker 1 (00:07): Welcome to the healthy, wealthy, and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness, and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information. You need to live your best life. Healthy, wealthy, and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. Hey everybody. Speaker 2 (00:37): Welcome back to the podcast. I am your host, Karen Litzy and today's episode is brought to you by net health. So net health is hosting a three-part mini webinars series on Tuesday, March 9th, entitled from purpose to profits. How to elevate your practice in an uncertain economy after 2020. I think you're going to want to sign up for this. So you're going to hear from a panel of guests that have over 50 years of combined experience working in the PT industry sign up will begin tomorrow, which is Tuesday the 23rd, February 23rd for this mini webinars series. So head over to net health.com/litzy to sign up once again, that's net health.com forward slash L I T Z Y. So check it out and sign up now. Oh, and it's free. Okay. So this whole month we've been talking about ACL injury and rehab. So today's episode is with Dr. [inaudible]. Speaker 2 (01:41): He has 28 years of experience as a sports physical therapist specialist. In 1990, he graduated with a degree in physical therapy from I'm not even going to pretend to try and pronounce this. So you can just go onto the podcast website to find out where he went to school. Cause I'm not even going to attempt it following his graduation. He worked in both the us and Germany as a physical therapist in 2003 here in does sports physical therapy degree from you trick university of applied science in 2005, he started a PhD project at the university university medical center, grown again, center for rehabilitation. He is a researcher, clinician, and a clinician researcher with a passion for multidisciplinary injury prevention. He has over 40 peer reviewed publications and he regularly gives lectures worldwide in his free time. He loves to mountain bike and you can check out more from him and his research@motorlearninginstitute.com. Speaker 2 (02:46): Okay. So today we talk about just that we talk about motor learning. So the process of motor learning, how patient autonomy is advantageous to rehab, how to motivate, how to measure low motor learning outcomes on field rehab models and the importance of cognition and ACL rehab. And we talk about Allie's brand new model for Mona motor learning, which will be out hopefully in a month or so. So a big thanks to Allie. And of course, thank you all for listening to this month on ACL injury and rehab. Hey, Alli, welcome back to the podcast. I am happy to have you on once again. Speaker 3 (03:31): Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. It's been awhile pleasure to be here today. Speaker 2 (03:34): Yes. And so, as people, if you've been listening to the podcast, you know, that this month has been all about ACL injury and rehab. And so what better person to have on the new to talk about kind of the rehab process after an ACL injury and your specialty, which sort of motor motor learning. So the first thing I want to ask you is can you define motor learning? Speaker 3 (04:02): Yeah, that's it, that's a very good question. And I I've taken three, I think important aspects of motor learning that I think are relevant for clinicians that listen to this podcast. The first one is in order to acquire motor learning, you need to practice. If you don't practice, you can't learn something and that may be pretty straight forward, but I still think it's important. The second one, and that's a little bit of a vague one, but the learning process itself cannot be measured directly. It's only been some been something that you can measure indirectly. And I I'll touch back on that a little bit later. What I mean by that? And the third point is what model learning should result in is that it should lead to relatively permanent improvement of motor skills. And last year I gave the example of writing how to ride a bicycle for this year. Speaker 3 (05:03): I thought, Hey, maybe skiing is a good example. And so if you've taking ski lessons as a teenager and you became quite proficient in skiing, it could be for many different reasons for job or any other reason that you haven't been going to the Rocky mountains, but at the age of, let's say 35, you have some time again, and you have some financial resources and you'd, Hey, let's spend the week again in Vermont or the Rockies and maybe a little bit of rusty at the beginning, but perhaps after a day or two, you get the hang of it again. So this is I think a great example of what motor learning means. It means that you acquire something and it sustains over time. Now that needs to be distinguished from performance. And this is, I think one of my key messages that I would like to point out to clinicians when you work with your patient in the clinic and you have your patient doing an exercise. Speaker 3 (06:11): And this relates to my second point is that motor learning is not directly observable. What you see in the here and now is performance. Now I get, I can give you two examples. So let's say you have a patient after an ACL injury six weeks post-op and you want to have your patient work on balance, not patient number one comes in and stands on one leg. And actually what you're seeing, you're very happy, very stable not any excessive movements is able to maintain balance for 30 seconds. Okay. You're you might be happy with that. Now, your second patient comes in from the same surgeon, also six weeks post-op and when you have this patient perform the same exercise, you see that a patient sometimes needs to take the hands of the hips or needs to hold onto something, or puts the other foot down to maintain balance. Speaker 3 (07:16): And from these two examples, you may draw the conclusion that the first patient has better motor skills and has better learning potential. And the second one has poor motor skills and is not such demonstrating good learning potential. We don't know. We only, we only know that performance in patient one is better for sure. Performance in patient B is not as good for sure, but that doesn't mean that the dis says anything about the learning potential. In fact, it may be that the learning potential in patient one is, or has already been reached because this is at the max of his abilities, various for the second patient with poor performance, there may be a large learning potential. So that that's that's I think very important. And what you need to consider as a clinician is be careful how you interpret this process, because what I know from my early days, and also when I teach courses, is that quite a few clinicians have a tendency to provide feedback because they would intuitive to literally try to correct patient too, because you see that it's not able to maintain balance. Speaker 3 (08:40): So we need to say something. So we will usually do that in with feedback. And we typically do this with corrective feedback. And my second take home message would be, be a little bit patient with your patient because learning takes time. So maybe unless you feel that there is an unsafe situation, but if that's not the case, let the patient practice and re evaluate in the week or in two weeks time. But don't interrupt the learning process too soon. Because when I go back to the skiing example, remember when you haven't been skiing for for like 15 years or when you started to ski, it, it, it was probably something like this first day, quite difficult. Second day, still difficult. You might even get frustrated third day, no improvement. However, on the fourth day snow not being able to ski ski lift is closed. Speaker 3 (09:55): And on the fifth day means there was no one day without any skiing lessons on the fifth. There you go out again, Hey, and all of a sudden you feel like, Hey, I I'm, I'm better than I was on day three, although you haven't practiced in the day in between. So this is what I mean, learning is not only happening as you practice, but there's also some processing afterwards going on in your brain that helps to acquire those motor skills now. And if you interrupt that process like vote by providing a lot of corrective feedback you may actually, although with all good intentions, I don't want to disqualify that, but maybe it's better to leave the process happening and evolve and then provide feedback later on. Speaker 2 (10:50): Yeah. It kind of reminds me of have you ever heard the term helicopter parent? So it's the parent that's always hovering over the child, making the decisions, not allowing them any autonomy for themselves. And so it reminds me of that helicopter therapist who's on top like, Oh, I see that if you use the example of balance, Oh, I see that you struggled a lot with your balance. Why don't you try and do this? Well, why don't you do this, try this, try this, try this. And, and in that as the therapist, are you taking away the autonomy for the patient and what kind of, how can that affect the outcomes for that patient? Speaker 3 (11:31): Yeah, that's an excellent point. Karen C motor learning, as well as learning a language or learning math is a nonlinear process, which means how you learn how to ride a bicycle was probably different from how I learned it. So, but what we typically do as clinicians, we have this, this, this clinical guidebook in our, in our mind map that we think based on our experience or based on our beliefs, how we need to guide our patients from simple skills to more advanced skills from single task skills to do a test skill, whatever. However, we don't know how this patient is actively engaged in this process, actually, by example, that you were provided the, the patient is directed by the, by the parent or, or the child is directed by the parent and is actually a passenger. Now, I think one of the strong drivers of learning is intrinsic motivation. Speaker 3 (12:41): So what role do you give your patient if you direct them, where to go, what to do, and also you give them corrective feedback are these all strong drivers for self-organized learning? I'm putting a question Mark behind it. So people need to think about them for themselves. I can tell you what we do in, in, in our clinical situation. And that's based also on our research we provide our patients or in ACL injury prevention, we provide a significant amount of autonomy, which means an athlete or a patient gets a certain level, not complete control, but a certain level of control over the exercises. So they can choose, for example, out of 10 exercises, they can pick three exercises that they would like to do on that particular day, in an order they would like to do. And we know from a substantial body of research that providing autonomy during during rehab enhances enhances learning. Speaker 3 (13:59): And I can tell you this from a research point, but it can also give you a brief insight from a recent survey that we've done among patients that completed their rehab. And we sent them an open questionnaire about their experience in in the entire process of rehabilitation. And one thing that two things that really stood out were a positive environment, a positive environment with relatedness of the therapist towards the patient, and not as a patient, but as a person that's quite important. So it's not a ne it's not an ACL patient. No, it's, it's, it's a person with an ACL injury. That's quite, quite, quite an important distinction. And the second thing that stood out was and you, you touched on that before is the autonomy some self-control over the rehabilitation process. And this was a qualitative study that we did my PhD student while surveilling ran the study. Speaker 3 (15:10): So it's not something that I'm just saying as a scientist, but this is also what we get back from our patients. And when we ask them so going back to the clinical situation this is what we apply also by providing our patient with the opportunity, instead of me always providing the feedback I'm asking them, or I'm giving them the opportunity please let me know when you want me to give you feedback. That is a great example of of autonomy, the thing, easy question. Yeah. And, and, you know, what's, what's, what's what's quite important to understand is if w if we think how humans preferably like to receive feedback if we, if we, if we ask a healthy population and the same applies to to an injured population, it turns out that around 70% of the power of the people prefer to receive feedback after a good performance of an exercise, what happens in most clinical situations with all good intentions? I really don't want to question that, but we typically give corrective feedback, which typically means you didn't do something according to the standards of the therapist. That means that maybe seven out of the 10 people that you provide feedback to may not really like this, and this may affect their motivation. This may affect their learning potential because they like to receive feedback when something went well, they, they conversely they already know when something didn't go well and they don't need us to rub it in or to remind them they already know. Speaker 2 (17:15): So you, you touched on a word that I was just going to ask you about, and that is motivation. So why is motivation key in motor learning? Speaker 3 (17:28): If you look for example, at the brain activity of a person that is instructed to do something, or you look at the brain activity of a person who has some control over what they're going to do, you have completely different brain patterns. And I can tell you that the second one, the second example, when you give them some, and when they can choose, they are much more engaged, and this is a prerequisite in order to learn something. Speaker 2 (17:59): Yeah. And, and I think we can probably all look back on our own personal experiences of learning, whether that be academic learning, or learning a physical task. I think we all like to have a little bit of control over that versus just have stuff thrown at us without our IM without our input or without our thoughts on it. So I think that makes perfect sense. And now, so we spoke about how motor learning is, non-linear why motivation and autonomy is so important. Now let's talk about, we've got this patient with who had an ACL repair and they want to get back to sport. They, they are, they are ready mentally. So we'll put that to one side. They're ready mentally. So let's talk about the return to sport from a motor learning perspective. Speaker 3 (19:02): In my opinion, return to sports is we first need to define what we mean. And I think the 2016 consensus meeting gave us some leeway in that direction. And I think one of the most important things that stood out is that it's a continuum. It is not one moment in time. And I think what I read in the literature often is is that it's such a that coma to choice yes or no at at six months or nine months, whatever you're, you're, you're, you're believing in. I think what we need to understand is certainly in light of the high number of secondary ACL injuries, particularly in the young population, in, in, in pivoting type sports, that's number one. But also the second one is that, you know, only, I think a disappointed percentage of people reach their pre-injury level. Speaker 3 (20:00): So their performance is not up to par. So do those two factors. When we, when we look at that, I think it all starts prior to the surgery. So the rehabilitation, I think is one of the key factors that we need to, that we need to consider anything that's left. Unaddressed will show up even in higher magnitude, after the ACL reconstruction, which was the second trauma to the knee. And, and then in, during the entire rehabilitation process, something very simple. And I can't stress that enough if, if walking is not normal and how do, how do many clinicians assess a normal gait pattern? They usually ballpark it, but, you know, even a slight deficit of five degrees is clinically meaningful. And now, now just follow some logical sense. If you're walking is not normal, what do you think will happen with the running? Speaker 3 (21:01): W what do you think, what would you expect? How, how the squat will be executed by the patient and how will the single leg up will be done or a drop foot, a good jump. So that's why I think that all these elements from a motor learning perspective, and also we'll touch back on that a little bit later, of course, sound strengthening program, you know, no question about it, very important, but I think it is, it is very important to also incorporate the model learning process so that we make sure that the patient is learning or relearning those motor skills, but Mo and I can also stress enough. It's also important that we as clinicians really, really measure and boarding and, and I, we just completed and published a study among Flemish physiotherapist. And one of the things that came out of this study is that many don't use the evidence-based principles, meaning also they don't use two criteria as they don't assess and in order, and that's also coming down to model learning. If you want to a certain that learning has taken place, you need to measure, otherwise you can't, you can't be sure that the patient has learned something. Speaker 2 (22:22): And how do you, what are some examples that you can maybe give the listeners of how you measure these motor learning outcomes? Because I think that's important to let people kind of wrap their heads around that. And on that note, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and be right back Speaker 4 (22:41): On Tuesday, March 9th, net health is putting on a three-part mini webinars series entitled from purpose to profits, how to elevate your practice in an uncertain economy after 2020, you're going to want to sign up for this. You're going to hear from a panel of experts that have over 50 years of combined experience working in the PT industry, signup will begin tomorrow for this mini webinars series. So head over to net health.com/litzy to sign up once again, that's net health.com forward slash L I T Z Y. Speaker 3 (23:16): Yeah. So I use, then that's something from, from the business that you probably know that the PDCA cycle, the plan do check act and the P and the plan, which means you do a baseline test. So first you need to let's say balance. So there's the patient have a balance deficit yes or no. You can use the star balance says you can use th the balance error scoring system. That's your baseline test. Now, it's up for you as, as a physiotherapist with your clinical reasoning. Does the patient need an intervention to target a balance? Yes or no, or are we happy with, but let's assume now there is a balance deficit. Now we go to the do, which means what is my intervention? So my intervention could be, I'm planning to do balance training for four weeks, with two therapy sessions in the clinic, and four sessions at home consisting of those and those exercises. Speaker 3 (24:21): And then AF in between I'm doing an interim evaluation, is the patient going on track as I'm expecting or not? I can still find tune my my intervention program, a training program. And then I do a final assessment after, after two weeks and preferably even one little bit later on as well to make sure that the effects of the balanced training are really sustained over time. Remember what I said about riding a bike or skiing and that's a very simple procedure you can use. It doesn't take a lot of time but it's, it needs to be integrated in your daily practice because if you don't measure, you don't know. Speaker 2 (25:09): Yeah, absolutely. And I love that. I think people can get behind that PDCA cycle and cause, you know, PTs love things that are regimented and you know, things that sort of follow a plan. So I think this is a really easy, and I think people can get behind it. And I also think that it will keep your patient on track and keep you on track and organized versus just like throwing whatever up against the wall and seeing what sticks, if you measure it, you're, you know, you're, you kinda know where this patient is going and that makes all the difference. Speaker 3 (25:51): Yeah. Which, which th that's a good point that you I, I forgot to mention it actually in the, in the, in the planning cycle, I'm incorporating my patient. So I'm discussing the baseline tests and I'm asking in my patients, so you have a balanced deficit. What do you think is needed for you to improve your score? What do you think is could be if you score eight out of 10, so zero would be no balanced error. 10 would be the maximum errors that you can acquire. So you have an eight, what do you think is reasonable to achieve in two weeks time, for example, and then the patient could say, yeah, I think I'm I can reach a seven. Hey, that's the interesting information. Why, why are you so conservative? Why can't, why can't you challenge yourself from, from an eight to a four, for example? Speaker 3 (26:42): So I always creating this interaction with my patient. You know, I can in conjunction with, with, with me and my patient, I can set goals that, and that's quite important as well. That need to be challenging for the patient, because if you, if you already a good or something, you're not challenging and it's not challenging anymore, if it's too difficult, then you then it's overreaching. But it, it has to be something that the patient sees. Okay. I really got to put some effort into this is again, which is, again, something for important for learning. Speaker 2 (27:22): I was just going to say that I said from a motor learning standpoint, if you do nothing that gives a substantial challenge to your patient, are they really going to see the benefits of those exercise or of your plan? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Okay. Speaker 3 (27:45): And also going back to to the first example where the two patients with the balance exercise, if, if I give my patient an exercise, it is usually an exercise that creates difficulty for them. So if I see a perfect demonstration, then I'm kind of thinking, yeah, what is the learning potential here? So I purposely make the exercise a little bit more difficult right away. And I explained that to them, I'm explaining to them, don't expect to, to master this exercise today or tomorrow. And I always give that example of, of riding a bike and, and a lot of patients like that because, Oh yeah, I remember that I fell down quite a few times and and that that's in ACL rehab. It's, it's more or less the same process. Speaker 2 (28:37): Yeah. And, and I also want to switch, well, this isn't really switching gears just moving forward. So yes, we know that return to sport is a continuum you've got returned to sport and returned to performance, different things. And one of the things that I spoke about with Nicole [inaudible] is the importance of on-field rehab. So I know that's something that you're also passionate about. So do you want to kind of tie that into what, what therapists can do on field to continue to foster this motor learning within their sport, whatever that sport may be? Speaker 3 (29:20): Yeah. I think that's, that's something that's underappreciated and, and maybe that's because we haven't really integrated the motor learning processes in our rehab. And one of the things that we have to consider is when you observe your patient in the clinic and you a certain motor behavior, that's all what it means. It stems down to the interaction between the environment. The task at hand could be a jumping exercise, could be a single lag, actually, whatever. And, and, and, and to behavior that you're seeing. So there is a task athlete, environmental interaction, which means the movement that you see from that interaction only is valid for that interaction. You cannot extrapolate a jump landing strategy from a box in a physiotherapy clinic. And imagine how this athlete would play lacrosse or American football or soccer. It's completely different game, completely different worlds. Speaker 3 (30:37): So I think that's where one of the main reasons why single leg hop test and accessed by, by, by Kate Webster and, and, and Tim, you, it were shown not to be valid predictors of secondary ACL injury, because a hop test is something completely different than how an athlete performs on the field. So, in, in, in that regards I think we need to take the patient to the field and to see how the patient is performing based on that interaction that I just refer to the tasks, the environment, and the athlete interaction. And then you get meaningful information where the, where that patient is is add, which for example also means that one-on-one training is not what's needed for a football player. They are team ball athletes. So you need to do something with the ball. You need to be on the turf and you need to do something with teammates Speaker 2 (31:43): That yes, when you're working with someone with a team sport, you have to have those other I don't want to say distractions, but you know, other people, a ball scanning a field versus just going one to one with you. Speaker 3 (32:02): Yeah. And we, we've just completed an analysis of 47 non-contact ACL injuries in Italian professional football. Just this work that I've done with Francisco Della Villa from the ISO kinetic group. And what we did is we, we looked at the injury mechanism through a different lens and what we the lens we use was a neurocognition lens. So we looked at the inciting events that happened before the ACL injury took place, because so far the literature is predominated by the dynamic valgus collapse. And I totally agree. I totally agree. However, it doesn't tell you what led to the injury. It just tells you what the end point is. That's dynamic velvets now. And what we've done now is what are now some typical events occurring during a match play in which a non-contact ACL injuries took place. And we took two neurocognitive factors. One is the selective attention. So are you able to maintain attention to the relevant information in this regard and filter out irrelevant information? And the other one is, did we see some impulsive behavior of defenders? And they were running into a situation in which basically the attacker waiting for them to approach. And then at the last moment, they made a deceiving action that the defender did not entail. Speaker 2 (33:40): And now in the very small timeframe, Speaker 3 (33:43): The defender had to change the movements in a timeframe that you don't have enough time to coordinate those movements well. So if you think about this as a framework, how injuries may happen, we also need to consider this framework, how we integrate that in our rehabilitation process. And this is what I do from day one. And certainly this is what I do re related back to your question for the on-field this framework we use for the on-field rehabilitation. And I've created a model for that. Speaker 2 (34:19): Yeah. So I was just going to say, I know that you've created a model and it's going to be published soon. So let's talk about what that model is. And if you can kind of walk us through that, that would be great. Speaker 3 (34:31): So the model is consists of three main pillars. The first one is neurocognition and neurocognition, you need to think about reaction time. Decision-Making selective attention, as I mentioned before, but also your ability to control impulsive behavior. That's called inhibition. Can you, can you change your intended movement? Yeah. That's something to control your impulses. Very important. Working memory is another aspect. So those are the neurocognitive components. Then we have the motor component, and I think that's where most physios will be quite familiar with. So we think about strength, range of motion endurance speed, things like that. Yeah. That that's, that's I think pretty straightforward. Then we have the sensory part. So in the sensory part, we can have the visual components so we can alter the visual input, maybe quite relevant for ACL rehab as Dustin grooms has already shown. And also my colleague and part of borne, Tim layman has demonstrated that with EEG, that the patient may have some visual reliance, but also things like, do you have your patient do training with shoes on is, are you playing on the hard surface, soft surface lighting conditions, auditory information. Speaker 3 (36:06): Now those three factors, neurocognitive motor, and the sensory part. What I did in my model, I created like a gauge, so I can create an exercise combination in which I have a relatively simple motor skill. So not so demanding, standing on one leg, for example, but what happens now, if I, and more cognitive load, for example, by having them do math subtractions, or working on the synaptic sensory station by doing motion tracking. Now I can see what the influences is of an added neurocognitive load on my motor art, because those three shape my functional movement coordination. Likewise, I can turn back. My neurocognition lit and stay with the same exercise and do now something on the sensory part. And this is what we all do as clinicians. So we do a single leg balance exercise, and we have the patient stand on on the, on the foam surface, or we have them close their eyes. Speaker 3 (37:14): So we already doing this, but I think the model can help you. How do I plan my exercises within one rehab session? And I'm changing that from week two week. And why would this be important? Well, first of all, we all always need to consider that we have, we need cognition during our motor control. And if we only work on pre-planned activities that, that are often in happened, we miss something exactly what you pointed out already from the on-field situation. They have to perceive a lot of information. They have to process that information and then execute the movement. And here's where cognition comes in. And we do this by being aware of that, we can use these gauges. What we do is we actually create a rehab environment that we call in part a board. And we call that an enriched environment in which we constantly provide different stimuli to the patient. Speaker 3 (38:22): That means the rehab from week one to week two is not the same, which means variation, something new, something I haven't done before. Again, this could already motivation so significantly, and I can tell you from experience, patients love this. The second benefit would be since you're providing different stimuli, you actually confronting the brain every time with a new situation and the brain has to find solutions. And this is I think very important also from the motor learning perspective that we need to consider to enhance the neuroplasticity of the brain, because an ACL injury is not just a peripheral ligamentous injury. It is also a neurophysiological lesion and that's, I think, needs to be considered and rehab. Speaker 2 (39:19): I mean, I, I have to say for me, I really liked this model because it, it gives you a great way. Like you said, to plan out your session so you can maybe enlarge the motor component one day or take it back another day, do more, neurocognition move that back, do more sensory, do sensory motor, maybe not so much neuro do a little bit of all three. So it's sort of like, I just sort of see the Venn diagram, just expanding and contracting with all three of those bubbles, which I think is really great. And like you said, it gives you, it's almost from a therapist standpoint, a clinician standpoint, I feel like it gives me permission to play around and come up with some fun things and be a little more original. Speaker 3 (40:06): Yeah. And I think what it also does it, it, it may help you as a therapist to get a better understanding where some underlying deficits may be because we only, we T we typically like to measure the outcome. So let's say I'm doing an agility course, and I'm just looking at at the time. And then I see, Oh, the patient is not so fast. So I need to do more training. Well, what you could maybe do is try to untangle a little bit and to see if the patient from the motor perspective has all the necessary requirements in order to be fast. Maybe there's a deficit there, but let's assume it's not the case. So all, all the strength, all the rate of force development, all these parameters are satisfactory. That must mean that there's something else in the system that can't cope with the demands. And that could quite well be that there is an underlying neurocognitive deficit, and this may help you as a therapist to work more on those neurocognitive elements with the intended goal that the patient becomes faster, but maybe not so much, but we're doing more plyometrics and, and doing more speed now working on the neurocognitive aspect. Speaker 2 (41:30): Yeah. So it's, it's a, a treatment as well as an evaluative tool to kind of see where some deficits are and how you, you and your patient together can plan to move forward. Sounds great. When when will this be widely available? Speaker 3 (41:49): I hope we have it out in a month, the time from that pending on, on the, on the publication process, but please stay tuned. Speaker 2 (41:58): Okay, perfect. And we will let, we will let people know. I will put it on social media when that is out. So that sounds great. Well, I mean, thank you so much for coming on and talking about this, I've been taking copious notes. I think this was great. Before we get into where people can find you, I have one last question and I ask everyone this, and that's knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to your, to your younger self? Speaker 3 (42:23): Good question. I think what would have helped me if I would have spent more time in the neurological field, I think in, in what I still see, or with colleagues that work with pediatric patients, I think some of the motor learning principles that they use could be very beneficial for us working with more orthopedic sports related injuries. That's something I did not understand back then, because my interests were solely in the, in the sports domain, but in retrospect, I should have spent more time in, in the neurological and pediatric field. Speaker 2 (43:04): Great advice and great advice for anyone who is maybe at that starting point in the sports or orthopedic rehab world and trying to figure out, Hey, what is there something I'm missing here? So I think that's great advice now, where can people find you and find all this great stuff, all your great info. Speaker 3 (43:24): All right. So we have a website from our company and our company's serves as the hopefully as the intermediary between academics and the clinical field. I, I work in both fields. I'm, I'm a clinician, I'm a researcher. And with our platform, actually our community model learning Institute, we want to create a bridge between the academic field and the clinical field, because I think we can all improve, but we need to find each other and we need to speak the same language and have respect mutual respect for one another. And if we engage in in such a culture by exploring, by facilitating one another, I think we can create a lot of new things and approaches with the overall purpose to help our patient. This website will be updated in a month from from now. So we will we will be offering completely new courses, which are also have the opportunity to get coaching from us. So it's not frontal education, but we offer for every course participant to receive life or written feedback on their progress during the course, because our premise is that we want to create a course in such a way that you can apply it into your setting after you've completed the course. Speaker 2 (44:58): That sounds amazing. And we will have links to to the website. We'll have also put the link up to your research gate profile so that if people want to look at some of the papers that you mentioned today, they can just go there and see all the papers that you have authored and co-authored do. I think it would be really helpful. And if people want to find you on social media, where's the best place to reach out to you there Speaker 3 (45:26): Would be Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook. Speaker 2 (45:30): Perfect. And what are the handles if you know them off hand motor learning Institute. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. So thank you so much. And like I said, I will have everything available up on the website at pod podcast at healthy, wealthy, smart.com. So Allie, thank you so much for coming on again. I really appreciate it. Speaker 3 (45:55): Thank you, Karen. And I really want to say, thank you so much for setting this up. I think this is exactly what we also stand for, that we create a platform in which we can exchange our ideas. We can ask one another question that that's the best way I think, to move forward. So really thankful for you to organize this and yeah. Speaker 2 (46:16): And so everyone, thank you so much for listening. Have a great couple. I have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart. Well, a big thank you to Allie for coming on and sharing all this great information about motor learning as it relates to ACL injury and rehab. And of course thank you to our sponsor net health. So remember on Tuesday, March 9th, net health is putting on a three-part mini webinars series entitled from purpose to profits, how to elevate your practice in an uncertain economy. You're going to hear from a panel of guests that have over 50 years of combined experience working in the PT industry, signups will begin tomorrow, which is February 23rd for this mini webinars series. So head over to net health.com/ let's say to sign up once again, that's net help.com forward slash L I Speaker 1 (47:04): T Z Y. Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media.  

In this episode, 3rd Year DPT Student at Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, Briana Zabierek, talks about her DPT Study Guide. Today, Briana tells us about her experiences in PT school and the frustrations that led her to start the DPT Study Guide. How is the DPT Study Guide helping students? How does Bri find the time to do it all while still studying? She elaborates on the future of the DPT Study Guide, what students can expect to find in the guide and current developments. Briana tells us about how the DPT Study Guide is compiled, finding her entrepreneurial interest, and she gives her younger self some valuable advice, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways How Bri manages her time: Change of pace: Set a timer for 45 minutes. Put all notifications off, and just zone in on your work. Master a topic, then move on: Be comfortable bouncing between topics. Master the main ideas before moving on to another topic. Don’t try to do a whole topic in one go. “The long-term goal is not just to provide products and merchandise, but to really make it a place where you know you’re stepping into a simplified version of PT school.” “If you have the passion for it, and this is something that you believe in, then you can make anything happen.” “You don’t have to be an entrepreneur to make these opportunities possible for yourself.” “Take more breaks and realize how valuable those can be for hitting reset with your mind and focus, and also make time to have some fun.”   Suggested Keywords PT, DPT, Study Guide, Health, Prioritizing, Studying, Entrepreneurship, Efficiency, Physiotherapy, Time Management,   To learn more about Briana: [caption id="attachment_9507" align="alignleft" width="150"] www.melissa-manzione.com[/caption] Bri was raised in Lockport, IL. In 2017, she graduated with a BSc from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, Double Majoring in Nutrition, Exercise, and Health Science, and Nutrition Science with a Minor in Psychology. She is currently studying toward her PhD in Physical Therapy at the Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, with her graduation expected in May of 2021. Her mission statement: To serve, encourage, and equip patients and students in reaching their full potential.     Follow Briana at: Facebook:       @dptstudyguide Instagram:       @dptstudyguide LinkedIn:         Briana Zabierek SPT Twitter:            @dptstudyguide Website:          https://dptstudyguide.com                         https://dptstudyguide.com/downloads   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hi, Bree, welcome to the podcast. I am happy to have you on. Speaker 2 (00:05): Thank you. Thanks for having me. Sure. Speaker 1 (00:07): And we'll give a shout out to Dr. Sarah Hague for putting us into contact with each other and telling me all about the great work that you're doing with DPT study guide. And we're going to talk about that today. So before we talk about the guide itself, why don't you share with the listeners, your sort of personal experiences with PT school, which you are still in your third year student at Roslyn Franklin. So share a little bit about your personal experience with PT school and maybe some of the frustrations that came up for you. Speaker 2 (00:41): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So first and foremost, I think every student kind of encounters a little bit of a roadblock just starting out between my roommates and just our class itself, we had some pretty good comradery to begin with. And so I always felt that that was a good option to at least discuss, you know, areas that I maybe was struggling with or they were struggling with and just kind of have this like melting pot of different ideas and different ways that we could all just get the job done and kind of figure out what we need to know for exams. But as time went on, I think we all kind of fell into our own little like habits and patterns and maybe a little bit what we're comfortable with. And then what I realized was when I think it was about like the middle of middle or towards the end of first year we had our neuro unit and that is kind of where everyone hit a wall with our study habits and just retaining the information and just kind of collectively as a class, we were making our own separate study guides and they would be like these super, super long word documents. Speaker 2 (01:56): And I'm talking like 50 plus pages full of yeah. Like eight point text. And I was kind of like attached to them. Like we all would get on like our Google docs and like start typing up information and it just became really overwhelming. And so what I realized was like, I kind of have an opportunity for myself and for my colleagues is to just simplify things a little bit like I was getting sick of kind of going through the PowerPoint slides that were, you know, 120, 150 slides long and just little snippets of information on each. And so I kind of just took a step back and, and saw an opportunity to really simplify things, not just for myself, but something that I thought would be helpful just to transform any student's education going forward. And it was in again, late in our first year when I was inspired by different cash based physical therapists and kind of exposed to that world and realized that there was an opportunity for me to step into like a neat niche position. We kind of get started there kind of with like a side hustle. So that's kind of where everything stemmed from, and right now it seems to be going pretty well. Just looking forward to kind of like sharing the experience. Speaker 1 (03:13): Yeah. And so tell me a little bit more about the guide itself. Can you kind of give an example of a section of it and how it helps other students? Right. Speaker 2 (03:26): So one thing that I definitely picked up on when I started posting the information on Instagram, which is my, my primary platform that I use was trying to get the main points of any kind of lecture or chapter into about like eight to 10 pictures on Instagram. And so what I wanted to do was share that information to simplify things for followers and students in general. But the guides themselves are focused around that idea. So kind of finding information that is most relevant to clinical practice and then finding information that's most relevant for board exams, meaning safety, or, you know, most basic like phases of cardiac rehab, pulmonary rehab and stuff like that. And I, I always felt like I mentioned kind of going through so many chapters, so many pages, so many slides it was getting exhausting, trying to figure out what I needed to know. And so the whole point of the study guides is to just really get to the meat and potatoes of everything. And then if you need to find something to reference later on, that's when we obviously go back to our PowerPoints in our articles. Speaker 1 (04:35): And how are you simplifying or sort of taking out those pieces that you described for the meat and potato pieces. Do you have a system as to how you extract that information from these lectures or is it a group effort? How is that being done? A little, Speaker 2 (04:54): A bit of both. I, like I said, we collaborate a lot as friends and classmates throughout the years. And then I really actually took the advice from Dr. Sarah Haig. So another shout out to her, she mentioned just go back to the objectives, whether it's the lecture that you're sitting in, in PT school or it's the textbook chapter that really lays out a good I don't know, six to 12 main ideas, and then I go back there and try and figure out, okay, what information from this chapter, can I really pull and fit it into these like umbrella topics? So that's kind of where I started at. And then some of the samples that I have up on the website to reflect like, okay, let's just put the fancy details away. And what do I need to know if I'm seeing a patient or if I'm seeing these questions on a board exam Speaker 1 (05:45): And what has the response been from your fellow students? Speaker 2 (05:50): So my class, my classmates are really excited about it. I post a lot of daily questions in, for board exams and they're excited to see it, they've moved their head ideas themselves to start an Instagram just for studying purposes. And then having that collaboration aspect has been really helpful. So I'll even get messages from a few of them saying that, Oh, well, you know, this is something that I haven't gone over yet. So I appreciate you kind of like pushing me to review it and, and stuff like that. But even from complete strangers, like how much support I've, I've gotten has been overwhelming almost, especially with trying to handle studying for boards and preparing for my final clinical rotation overwhelmingly positive. And I kind of attribute that to the field itself. I think going into a profession where we're, we're taught to care for others and put others first and all those ethical principles people are just really grateful to have an opportunity where they can see the information and either like bookmark it and kind of synthesize it right away instead of having to go through all like the dirty work themselves. Speaker 2 (06:58): So it's been overwhelmingly positive and I just want to shout out to everybody who's following along. I appreciate the support, Speaker 1 (07:05): And now you hit upon something that I want to dive a little bit deeper into, and that is time. So where are you finding the time? Because I know that I hear from a lot of students that they feel overwhelmed. There's not enough time in the day to begin with. So do you have any tips or tricks that maybe other students or even practicing clinicians can learn as to how you parcel out your time to be able to do all of this? Speaker 2 (07:33): That is a great point. It has taken me probably the last three to four years, even before PT school to figure out what works best for me. And kind of even coming to the realization of, you know, you, you do need to manage your time before I would be a little bit of a procrastinator. As in like I would, I would start a project and then I wouldn't really finish it. And I was like, okay, well I've already started it. So I'll get to it later. It's almost like more of a, a productive procrastinator, I guess. And so what really has helped me is a change of pace. So I know I don't remember the exact name of the timer, but you either set 45 minutes or 30 minutes where you're just zoned in notifications are off. And you're just focusing on that topic for a little bit. Speaker 2 (08:21): And then also mixing in a variety. So in the beginning of PT school, I would try and get through all of my lectures that we had that day, the same evening. And that was just that wasn't going to happen. I tried my hardest, but it was just wasn't going to happen. So what ended up doing was bouncing between topics, even if it feels a little bit unnatural. What I've noticed with my classmates and with myself is we want to just master a topic first, before we move on. And I think the most helpful tip that I can give is to really just be comfortable with bouncing between things and just mastering the, the main ideas before moving on to another topic, because the more that you get caught up in the details, the more you're going to kind of lag and again, procrastinate going to other topics. So that is first and foremost, give it some variety, mix things up and then really set a timer. And then lastly, like I said, just taking a peek at the objectives of the lecture and the chapter is really going to tie together, you know, what you need to pull away for clinical practice or, or board examinations. Speaker 1 (09:28): Yeah, because I think so often we can sometimes get lost in the weeds and we don't pick our heads up to see those bigger pictures. So I think that's really great great advice for students and for physical therapists alike. So now we know why you started DPT guide and now have a better idea of what it is. So my next question is what, what is the goal for you of the DPT study guide Speaker 2 (09:58): First and foremost, I, I want to make it a community. I think the longterm goal is to be not just to provide products and merchandise, but to really make it a place where students and practitioners alike can come and just review without any, I dunno, egos or preconceived notions or anything like that. Just coming into a place where like, you know, you're, you're stepping into just a, a simplified version of PT school or PT practice. So that's the ultimate goal is just making a community for people to come together and not, not entirely making it about DPT study guide, but making it about the appreciation and respect for physical therapy itself. I do a lot right now on the page about daily, weekly posts covering a variety of topics, as well as sharing a lot of other students, other clinicians work that they are doing to promote the profession, promote their small businesses. And so that's, that's kinda, my, my longterm goal is to just make it this safe space, I guess, for PT students and clinicians alike. Speaker 1 (11:12): And now is this something that is meant to help people pass their board exams? Cause I just want to make sure that we're kind of differentiating so that people, especially students that are listening if they want to get this guide or get these guides from you, is this something that's like, you're gonna pass your boards if you do this. Cause I don't want there to be any information there. Speaker 2 (11:36): Right? Absolutely. My first line of products is geared towards the board exam, especially the MPTE. I think long-term, I would like to branch out and see, especially in Canada, my boyfriend is Canadian. So you kind of giving some respect, a little shout out there too. But first and foremost, yeah, it's going to be focusing on the MPTE and then down the line I would like to extend it into just clinical practice, you know, how things have evolved from our standardized examination to how things are in the clinic or in the hospital. Speaker 1 (12:10): Got it, got it. Okay. So what can people expect? What if I, if I am a student and I want to download this, what can I expect to find, Speaker 2 (12:23): Do a lot of aesthetics? So I try to pull in like I said, the information that is relevant to both clinical practice and board examinations by kind of seeing where the attention is going to be in terms of like the mind's eye. So transitioning from what we made in school during our first year with those 50 to 60 page documents with just white background, black text, it's really hard to find the information that you think is going to be important. And kind of just simplifying it into basic examination procedures, basic interventions phases of rehab medical screening, laboratory values. And like I said, kind of the meat and potatoes of everything that PT is just so that students don't get overwhelmed with the details. It's going to be like bright and bold big ideas and then kind of like, Speaker 1 (13:21): Got it, got it. And, okay, so now we have a better idea of where you would like this to go. So tell me, what else do you have in development? What are you thinking that you can add to this? And it looks like, so what I mean, when you're on the website, it looks like it, the addition to it is, can be infinity. So I think it's important for people to know that it's not like you go onto your website and it's one big gigantic guide. Right, right. So where do you see this going? What do you have coming down the pipeline? Speaker 2 (14:08): So first and foremost is getting out both PDF copies and paper copies of the study guides. And then once I feel like that has a pretty steady response rate, then I want to transition into maybe even tutoring one-on-one video instructions or even student courses where they can go through maybe a differential diagnosis and orthopedics or differential diagnosis medication review in neurology and even down the line. This is like probably five years from now. I have a very invested passion and pain science, and so kind of pulling those things together and offing offering courses for professionals and students alike. So I, I have high hopes. I think it's going to be a little bit of a learning curve and seeing what the demand is for students and professionals when the time comes. But I, I have full intentions to continue to grow with the demands that are out there for students and professionals. Speaker 1 (15:16): Awesome. And now, you know, this is obviously very entrepreneurial and which is very exciting. So where did that spark come from? Because not everyone has that kind of entrepreneurial spirit and nor do you need to have it to be an excellent physical therapist, but where did that come from for you Speaker 2 (15:38): First and foremost? I have to, again, shout out to a dear friend of mine. His name is Travis. Robertson. He is, he was a third year student when I was a first year student. And like I mentioned, during that neuro unit where things kinda got a little hazy with studying, he mentioned to me that like, you know, why don't you just take a chance and see what the market is out there? He was very invested in cash based physical therapy at the time. And so then I started looking into, I mean, all the major ones, Aaron LeBauer was first and foremost, Danny Mada, Jared Carter. I actually even kind of more on like the female entrepreneur side of things is when I found obviously Karen Lyndsey and Dr. Hague more, just more opportunities to see what those people were doing in their own journeys. Speaker 2 (16:28): And so he really inspired me to just take a peek at what's out there. The more that I learned about cash based businesses, owning your own PTP clinic, the more I realized that there's different opportunities with side hustles with other income streams. And that's when I, I kind of took my passion for simplifying PT studies into like the study guide form and realizing it's going to take a little bit of effort upfront. But you know, if you have the passion for it and if you feel it's like, it's something that you believe in and fit that this is truly something that I believe in, then you can make anything happen. Like you said, you hit the nail on the head. You don't have to be an entrepreneur to make these opportunities possible for yourself. Speaker 1 (17:11): Yeah, no, definitely not. Definitely not. As long as you can stay organized and motivated and at some point reach out for help. I know not necessarily in the beginning, but you know, as time goes on reaching out for help when you need it is always a great thing as well. Well, it sounds like you've got, it sounds like you've got everything under control. I think you might be more organized and, and, and you've got your, you know, what together, more than I do. So I may, I'm a little so now what, where can people find you? Where can they find the guide? Yes. Speaker 2 (17:58): So the website is plain and simple DPT study guy at.com. I also run primarily the Instagram account, which is the handle is DPT study guide. And then that same handle you can find on Twitter and Facebook. If you're interested in connecting to me personally I do have a LinkedIn as well, and that would be my first and last name Breeza Barrick. So we can connect there too, but yeah, everything is easily accessible from the website and from Instagram page. Speaker 1 (18:30): Awesome. And, you know, just so you know, it's also very easy to download and it is very pretty and it's very organized and looks very it looks great. So I highly suggest if you're listening to this, especially if you're a student and even if you're not, if you want to brush up on your open and closed pack positions for all your joints, definitely a check out to DPT study guide.com. Now the last question is something I ask everyone it's knowing where you are now in your physical therapy student journey. Normally I say, in your life and career, what advice would you give to yourself right out of PT school, but why don't we say, what advice would you give to yourself maybe before you started physical therapy school to where you from, where you are now? Speaker 2 (19:16): Oh, that's a great one. Looking back, I would make more time for breaks. I feel like students are way too hard on themselves in terms of, I need to be studying 24 seven. If I'm taking a break, it makes me weaker. It makes me less smarter or whatever the case may be. Take more breaks and realize how valuable those can be for just hitting, like reset with your, your mind, your focus. And also just making time to have some fun. I, I really feel that our class emphasize that a lot because we were also motivated to perform as best we could on test exams and really trying not to sweat the small stuff. Obviously, like I said, the whole goal of it was to let's focus on the big picture and maybe try and make it a little bit easier on ourselves throughout the way. Speaker 1 (20:11): Excellent advice. Excellent. Well, Bri, thank you so much. You are absolutely wonderful and makes me very excited for the future of our profession, knowing we have people like you getting ready to graduate and enter the workforce. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Speaker 2 (20:29): Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Speaker 1 (20:32): My pleasure, and everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

In this episode, Director of Rehabilitation at OL Reign, Dr. Nicole Surdyka, talks about on-field rehab after ACL injury. Nicole is currently the Director of Rehabilitation at OL Reign, one of the founding clubs of the National Women’s Soccer League, NWSL, which is one of the best professional women’s soccer leagues in the world. Today, Nicole shares her 5-phase on-field rehab strategy, and the decision-making process in return-to-play and return-to-performance. What are the criteria that Nicole looks at to determine progress to the next phase of rehab? She tells us about delaying return to sport to reduce second-injury risk, the return to sport continuum and how to define it, and the use of the StARRT framework for the return-to-sport decision-making. Nicole gives some valuable advice to her younger self, she tells us about integrating rehab with team activities, and communicating with athletes and coaches, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways Nicole implements on-field rehab in 5 phases. Phase 1: Simple, pre-planned, linear movements. The focus is on quality of movement and cleaning up movement technique before moving on. Typically includes walking marches, walking lunges, side shuffles, and jogging. Nicole starts this at 70-75 quad strength limb symmetry index. Phase 2: Pre-planned direction-changing movements. Typically includes accelerations, decelerations, sprinting, and change direction. Phase 3: Adding reactive tasks without a soccer ball. Direction-changing with an element of reacting to an external event. Nicole starts this with at least 80% quad strength limb symmetry index. Phase 4: Soccer-specific movements. The reactions are done in context – with a soccer ball. Phase 5: This phase should look like a modified training session. Delaying return to sport: each month that you delay that, there’s a 51% reduction in second-injury risk, up until the 9-month mark. Return-to-participation: When athletes are participating in their sport in a modified way – participation with certain limitations on activities. Return-to-sport: When there is no longer any medical reason to limit an athlete’s participation – “cleared to play”. Return-to-performance: There are no restrictions and athletes are training to become better at their sport. “Be patient. Every experience is valuable, and you can relate any experience to what you eventually end up doing.”   Suggested Keywords On-field Rehabilitation, StARRT, Injuries, ACL, Sport, Performance, Physiotherapy, PT, Therapy, Wellness, Health, Injury-Prevention, Recovery,   Recommended reading: Consensus statement on return to sport: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27226389/ On-field rehabilitation Part 1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31291553/ On-field rehabilitation Part 2: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31291556/   More about Dr. Surdyka:  Nicole is currently the Director of Rehabilitation at OL Reign, one of the founding clubs of the National Women’s Soccer League, NWSL, which is one of the best professional women’s soccer leagues in the world. Nicole is a physical therapist and strength and conditioning coach. She played Division 1 college soccer at St. John’s University and then went to Emory University where she got her Doctor of Physical Therapy Degree. Throughout college and PT school, Nicole coached youth soccer and worked as a personal trainer. After PT, school Nicole worked in various outpatient orthopaedic and sports medicine clinics before starting her own practice in 2018 where she worked with youth to professional athletes. Nicole specializes in on-field rehab for soccer players to help bridge the gap between rehab and sport performance. She is passionate about the return to sport process and how we can make better decisions for athletes returning to sport after an injury. Nicole has a website where she writes blog posts on rehab for soccer players, has eBooks available on specific injuries, teaches continuing education courses, and has presented at CSM and other national and international sports medicine conferences. To learn more, follow Nicole at: Website:          Nicole Surdyka Physio Facebook:       Nicole Surdyka Physio Instagram:       @dr.nicolept LinkedIn:         Nicole Surdyka PT Twitter:            @NSurdykaPhysio YouTube:        Nicole Surdyka   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the transcript here:  Speaker 1 (00:00): Hey, Nicole, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you on. Speaker 2 (00:05): Thanks. I'm excited to be on. Speaker 1 (00:07): So this whole month we're talking about ACL injury and ACL rehab, and you are an expert in both. So I'm really excited to have you as one of the guests this month. And today we're going to be talking about something that is really your zone of genius, and that is the on-field rehab, a rehab techniques, I guess, that helped to bring that player back to performance. So can you talk about what is the on field rehab like? Speaker 2 (00:45): Yeah. So I guess it's a concept that I, you know, I was a soccer player. I was a youth soccer coach, and so I always kind of felt in the back of my mind when I was going through PT school, like, Oh, wow, I could blend. Like, if, if we're trying to get this adaptation or build up this physical attribute, we could do that through soccer. And so it just made, it was something that made sense to me trying to incorporate the sport as much as possible, but where it really all clicked and came together. For me, it was actually at the isokinetic conference that I went to a few years ago in Barcelona. And actually your previous guest on this in Arundale was the one who talked me into going. So that was great. And I saw a presentation by Matt Thorpe about on-field rehab. And of course he and Francesco via have published two different articles in WSPT on this, but kind of seeing that presentation really yeah, tied it all Speaker 1 (01:42): Together and made me have that aha moment Speaker 2 (01:44): Like, Oh, this is a thing I can make this happen. And so really what it is is it helps to bridge that gap between the gym-based rehab and then sending the athlete back for their sport. Because if you think about it, there's so much of a difference between doing a drop vertical jump in the gym and then landing from a head ball on the field. Like not even just physically that's different because the surface is different. Your shoe wear is different. The weather obviously is different, but there's also different things in your environment to make decisions based off of, and react to and respond to. So where are my teammates in space? Where is my opponent? Am I going to have a contact or an indirect contact, a perturbation while I'm in the air that I have to land on? Funny, where do I have to redirect my Ron to afterwards? Speaker 2 (02:34): And you can only prep for that so much in the gym. And at some point you really need to get them on the field and do in a controlled way, what they're going to have to do when they're playing with their team again. So on-field rehab. The way that I implement it is really based off of Matt, Matt backdoor, Ben for Jessica, Davey is research and there are papers on it, which is phase one, really simple pre-planned linear movements. And so that can start fairly early. They say in their paper that they want to start. When the athlete has 80% quad strength, limb symmetry index, I tend to start a little bit earlier than that. Typically, when I'm having athletes jog, then they can be doing phase one. So things like walking marches, walking lunges side shuffling is okay in this phase, jogging anything that the athlete is has pre-planned, it's a pre-planned movement and it's just linear. Speaker 2 (03:34): So no changes of direction yet. And in this phase, we really focus on quality of movement. And we start to address here before they move on to more complex tasks we address are they moving efficiently? And are there things we need to clean up with the technique of their movement? So something like a high skip or a walking March, are they getting a lot of trunk lean? Are they yeah. Are they kind of like looking like Gumby out there? And so we need to clean that up a little bit, and this is the phase that we can really take the time to do that. So again, I like to start this pretty early. Typically I want them to be at least 70 to 75% quad strength, limb symmetry index. But the, just as a caveat to that, the paper by Francesco and met, like they're up says 80%. Speaker 2 (04:27): So just be aware of that phase two, they then move on to being able to change direction. Everything is still pre-planned. So we can take those linear movements from phase one and make them a little bit more intense. So we can start working on reaching towards accelerations decelerations, maximum speed. So we start to work on sprinting here and exposing them to high-speed running on the multi-directional staff. We can have them do anything pre-planned so no reactive tasks yet, but they can start to cut decelerate, changed direction, all controlled everything throughout the unfilled rehab program is control first. Then we build volume and intensity. So after phase two, we can progress them to phase three. Now for this, I definitely want them to be at least 80% quad strength, limb symmetry index. And I would love for them even to be closer to 85% and depending on how they look functionally. Speaker 2 (05:29): And so this is when we start to add reactive tasks. So now change of direction tasks, but with a reactive component. So they're reacting to something external to them. So I like to mix up and I know Amy talks about internal versus external cues a little bit. And it's something that definitely is coming up a lot in ACL research with motor learning is that we want some external cues. And so that can be auditory. That can be visual. So I like to do kind of a combination of both. I'll use words that they're going to hear while they're on the field. So turn man on ball, you know, I'll use kind of those that verbiage. And then the visual is you can make it just simple. You pointing to where they have to cut to or change direction to. You can make it be, they have to follow the ball, they have to follow a runner. Speaker 2 (06:25): So they have to follow where the space is that you've set up with, however, you've set up the environment. So that's where we add the reactive components and they anything pre-planned they can now be doing at speed. Next, we're going to go into phase four, which is really going to be more soccer, specific movements. So now they can react with a soccer ball. So everything we didn't base three with the reactive movements is them without a ball at their feet. Now in phase four, we can add a soccer ball. So you have to turn and either dribble, dribble, or pass, or you know, you have to collect the ball and then make a decision based on what's going on around you or what the coach or the physio calls out. And then phase five really should just look like a training session, a modified training session. So I try to replicate what the team has done in their training session or what a typical team training session would look like as much as I possibly can within a more controlled environment. So that's kind of the five phases and then, yeah, and then I started to incorporate them into the team. Okay. Speaker 1 (07:32): So let's, I have a couple of questions. So we're just going to back up a little bit. So for most of these phases, certainly phase one phase two phase three is the player is the player alone on the field? Do they, are they working in tandem with another player on their team? Speaker 2 (07:50): So typically when I was, before I had my current role, I had my own practice and I would work with the athletes. So it would be me and the athlete. If they had a friend or a teammate who was available, it's always nice to add other players. Now here at LL rain. I have two athletes right now who are going through ACL rehab together, kind of they're at a little bit different spots, but I can still work together with them, which is really nice. And then I can always pull some of the other players. So, Hey, do you want to work on crossing and finishing today? Great, like come in for this session this time and I can pull other players and you can do it alone. Eventually you need to start adding other players because there's 22 people on a soccer field. And so they need to start being able to move and react to all of those different people on the field, around them. And you can still do that in a controlled fashion. Absolutely. Speaker 1 (08:51): I will say to, to play or one, I want you to run down to line and cut to the right as your athlete is within the midst of whatever you're asking them to do from a rehab standpoint. Correct. Speaker 2 (09:03): Exactly. You can say, okay, you're going to run up and defend them. I want you to force them to their right. You know, so that way I have that person has to go to their right, so you can control for it. Whereas in a game you can't tell them, or an even in a practice session with their team, you can't say to all the other players on the field, Hey, when you go and defend, so-and-so only for, for her to her right foot, okay. That's never going to happen, but in that nice in on-field rehab, you can control for those things. And Speaker 1 (09:31): The other question I have was what is the criteria for entering phase two? Speaker 2 (09:35): Good. So, and answering into any onto three high program. I mentioned the quad strength, limb symmetry index, but also there should be no joint pain or a fusion. They can have some muscle soreness at times if they had a patella tendon graft they can have some patella tendon pain. I'm okay with that. Hamstring graft, if they have hamstring pain, I'm okay with that. But, and then also no joint laxity. So I'll typically just do a Lockman's anterior drawer test, as long as those are negative and there's no joint fusion, then we're good to go. Now it's progressed through each stage, subsequent to that, as long as they're able to do those movements with control, and there's no increase in joint pain or a fusion during any of those stages, then I can progress them. Although I still want to bear in mind, like we're not just going to do walk like phase one stuff. Speaker 2 (10:27): And then it's like, Oh, they felt good. Okay. Now we can do phase two. Like I still want to make sure that we get a couple sessions in and it's always going to play back into the overall big picture of where they're at in their rehab. You know, we're still doing a gym-based strength program at the same time that we're complementing with on-field rehab. So it that's where it kind of the the art of coaching takes in a little bit. And you just need to understand where your athlete is and if they still need more time in that area before moving on. Got it. And Speaker 1 (10:59): I know this is a question that a lot of people constantly ask when it comes to ACL, what is the timeline? Right. You know, cause you're always here. You don't want to return to play for a year for 10 months, nine months, a year, two years. So as you are going through these phases, are you also taking into account where they are in that rehab continuum or in, you know, post-surgical so how do you question Speaker 2 (11:26): W so it's kind of the, the short answer to that question is we can go back to some of the research that's been done by the Delaware Oslo cohort, so that, Hey, grandam over at Oslo and Lynn center Mackler at Delaware, and they've shown that delaying return to sport each month that you delay that there's a 51% reduction in second injury risk. And really the whole thing of this is when we're sending out fleets back to sport after an ACL reconstruction, our goal is to not allow that to happen again, right? The rate of a secondary injury is so high that there's obviously a flaw in how we're sending athletes back. So I think that most athletes go back too soon. And so each month that we delay up until the nine month Mark and at nine months, we, after that, we don't really see that level of reduction in, in, in second injury risk. Speaker 2 (12:22): Now for a youth player, who's not really in a rush to get back. I will probably never let them go back before a year. I just, there was no reason it's not worth the risk. They're agreed so much more likely to have another injury. And like, why have two ACL injuries in high school before you even get to college? Right. If the goal is to, is to play in college, you're better off missing your entire junior year of high school to just rehab and then be really strong for your senior year. As opposed to feeling like, Oh, I have to show college coaches. I have to go to all these college showcase tournaments, which I know is, is pressure on the athletes, but what does it, do you any good if you go back and now you do it again and you miss all of senior year as well, right then by college, like that's not going to happen for you. Right. So more of the professional athletes, there's a little bit more pressure, it's their livelihood. Right. So I'm okay with moving or even college athletes. I'm okay with moving closer to nine months, but I will never go before that, unless I have somebody like an Adrian Peterson who is just one of those outliers, then they have to give me a really good reasons to let them go back. Speaker 1 (13:33): Okay. And this actually flows perfectly into the next topic I wanted to talk about. And that is that decision-making for return to performance, right? So we've got the return to play. And even if you want to talk a little bit about that distinction between return to play and return to performance and talk a little bit about what your your decision-making Speaker 2 (13:57): Is like. Yeah. So to talk about that continuum a little bit, and actually I just had a meeting with our coaching staff here about that to make sure you're on the same page about these definitions. And so how I define them is based off of the return to sport a consensus statement for that Claire and was lead author on where the return to participation phase is when, or end of the continuum is when athletes are participating in their sport, but in a modified way. So I have a couple athletes now who I say, I look at what the daily session plan is for, for the training session. And I'll say, okay, this athlete can do the technical warmup and they can do the [inaudible], but I don't want them doing the two V twos because it's too much deceleration cutting, et cetera. So they, that counts as returned to participation because they're participating, but I'm still putting restrictions or limitations on them. Speaker 2 (14:53): So anytime there's any kind of modification or restriction or limitation there in returned to participation, when the medical, when there are no longer any medical reasons to hold an athlete back, that's when they're in return to sport. So that's what I would define as saying like you're quote, unquote, clear to play, right? Is that I'm not putting any restriction on you, if you are not being selected for playing time or for your starting position. That's because the coach isn't selecting you, not because I'm holding you back, but then beyond that, because sometimes an athlete's not going to really be satisfied with that outcome, right? If you're used to being the starting center forward and scoring a goal, a game, and now you're cleared, but you're not being selected into the starting lineup, or you're not being selected to the game day roster, or you are, but you haven't scored a goal in five games. Speaker 2 (15:44): Now you're not performing at where you were prior to your injury. So there's no medical reason to hold you back, but maybe you're not playing as much or playing as well as you would like to be. And that's where we transition into return to performance. So return to performance is there's no restrictions on you, no medical limitations or anything holding, holding you back from a rehab perspective. And now we're training to get you to being better at your sport. And I think those are really important distinctions to make, because a lot of times athletes or coaches, and actually it will be back and cleared to play, but coaches like, well, why isn't she as fast as she used to be? Why isn't she scoring goals? Like she used to be? Is she still hurt? It's like, no, it medically fine, but we're just not at return to performance yet. Speaker 2 (16:33): So then to to kind of decide when to send an athlete back for each of those things, I tend to look back to the on-field rehab program and how that is structured. So I'm a big fan of integrating the team, the athlete into team activities as often, and as much as you possibly can. So if they're able to do the technical warmup with the team, I'm putting them in there because, and that would technique that would typically be if they're in stage two, right. Cause it's going to be mostly pre-planned change of direction tasks, maybe some accelerations D cells, depending on, on what the warmup looks like. Sometimes there's reactive components. And so that sometimes takes just a conversation with the performance director or the SNC coach or the sport coaches, just to say, what is involved in this? And then, you know, but if you, if that athlete is able to do those things and they've done them with you and an on-field rehab program, send them back into the team. Speaker 2 (17:33): Cause that is just to me is another level of like the cognitive awareness and their ability to see what's going on on the field, around them and adding more athletes into the mix that they have to interact with. So I'm a big fan of that. So I'll typically have them in that return to participation phase for a fairly long time, like a few months before I say, okay, you're good. So, and the example right now, I have an athlete, who's doing portions of training sessions, but I probably won't like clear her quote unquote, clear her to play in a game until somewhere in the middle of April. Right. So she'll be, Speaker 1 (18:16): Is she about like six months then? Post ACL? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I think it's important to mention all of this because oftentimes a lot of physical therapists and I, this is not to throw our profession under the bus or anything, but a lot of physical therapists tend to be a little bit more restrained. They won't want them to go onto field. They won't want them to do this on-field rehab until they're at 90%. Right. And or until the doctor clears them to return to play well, you can't just be cleared to return to play. And you've only done a weight training program, proprioception, maybe some motor control stuff and then throw somebody on a field. Speaker 2 (18:56): Yeah. And I've seen that way too often. Speaker 1 (18:59): Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, I think that I'm really happy that you're saying like, Hey, you know, at six months they can be with the team, they can do some things. It just, it sounds to me like it's a lot of communication and collaboration from the, all of the stakeholders, right? Speaker 2 (19:14): It is, it does take a lot of communication. And we have twice a day meetings, constant emails, constant communication about where each athlete is. And then, you know, there is things that come up that we have to adapt to, like this was the training session plan. And this athlete was going to be able to do this amount of load that day. And then based on what was happening in the session, the plan changed. And so we have to adapt to that. And then we just supplement that with it with more on field work, you know, if they weren't able to do as much in the session with the team, then I just will take them to the side and do more work with them on the field. Now I will say that this is a lot easier to do in a team setting. And now I didn't work in a team setting for most, all of my career up until very recently. Speaker 2 (20:01): And so what I did in that situation, working in an outpatient clinic, that doesn't mean that this doesn't apply to you because you can still use this. And so what I used to do is whatever I would see my athlete do in the clinic with me or on the field with me, I would say, okay, I want you to go do this in practice with your team. So I want you to do the dynamic warmup with your team and then that's it. And then report back to me if that felt okay for them, then I'll say, okay, you can do any technical drill. You can do rondos, you can do, you know, possession style games but no contact. You can be neutral player. And I'll tell the athlete that depending on their age, I'll also tell their parents I do or did before I was in my current, always try to reach out to their club coach or their high school or college coach and let them know what the restrictions were. I understand sometimes we don't get responses when we reach out. I didn't always get responses when I reached out. But as long as you talk to the athlete and or their parent about that, and just make it very clear to them, like you can do this, you can not do that and then have them report back. But I, my rule of thumb was I wanted to see them do that type of activity with me before I had them do it with their team. Speaker 1 (21:18): Makes sense. And, and I think it's also important to note that just because you work in an outpatient clinic, doesn't mean you can't take these athletes onto a field. I live in New York city. I see patients in their home. I have a 14 year old who had a ACL rupture and subsequent surgery. And when she was 12 she's 14 now. Wow. Yeah. And we still got her out onto a field, got her. We went to the park, we did as much as we could on field. And sometimes that was just me having to be the defender or setting up cones and having her do stuff. But I think it's really important that if you work in an outpatient clinic, don't kind of wall yourself in with the walls literally. Yeah, exactly. You can take them out onto a field somewhere. I mean, if I feel like if I can do it in the middle of Manhattan, then people could probably have a much easier time doing it in places with more space. Speaker 2 (22:15): Yeah. And I would even get like, I've worked in clinics where the only space we had was the parking lot. And maybe that's where we did that. Or again, you can always say like, okay, I've, we've done the 11 plus warmup in our, in our gym based sessions. So you can go do that with your team now. Or we've done some volleying and passing and moving, you just need 10 yards of space. Right. We've done that in the clinic. So now I want you to try that with your team, or can you go in the backyard with your mom, dad, sister, brother, whomever, teammate, friend. And I want you to do these types of exercises in your backyard, you know, like have that be their AGP instead of having them do straight leg raises for six months. I mean, I have that either ETP. Speaker 1 (23:06): Yeah. I had my patient probably much, much to her. Neighbors' dismay, but we would be in the hallway of the building. Yeah. Or go into the basement of a building. I see a girl now for she's a softball pitcher. We go into an empty storefront. That's kind of attached to the building. I mean, you make it work, you know, you just have to Speaker 2 (23:29): Exactly. And like, if you can't find a way to make it work, you have to ask yourself, should I really be working with this type of athlete? Right. If you can't find a way to give the athlete what they need to get back safely and appropriately, then maybe that's not the setting, the athlete to be seeing you. Speaker 1 (23:47): Right. So it's you do the, I call it the blessing release. Oh yes. More, you need more space, you need XYZ. So I'm going to release you to someone that can, can finish the job if you will. Speaker 2 (24:01): Exactly. And that takes, like, I feel like in all walks of life, like just not having an ego is such an important skill set to have. And just saying, I know that there's so much more that can be done for you. And I know that there are too many limitations on me to be able to do this. So here's someone who can help you and you should move on to this person. Speaker 1 (24:22): Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's fair. And again, patient centered. And when you think about that return to sport, decision-making a lot of Claire, our Dern's work is that patient centered decision returned to sport decision-making. And so what you just said is exactly that. And so I think it's important for people listening that it may not always be you. Yes. That is such an important point. Yeah. Now, is there anything that we missed or that I glossed over that you're like, Oh man, I really wanted to make this point. Did we hit everything? Yeah. We hit everything. Speaker 2 (24:57): The only thing I would add is just as something for people to maybe go look up and learn more about is in that consensus statement, they talk about the start framework and that's what I use to guide my return to sport. Decision-Making right. So it's really just a simple needs analysis. What are the demands that this athlete is going to have to face and are they prepared for those? And yeah. So the start framework is a really great method. It's what it's literally what I use to help guide decision-making because it doesn't just look at, like, it looks at the tissue health, it looks at the demands. It also looks at what are some modifiers of those. So is it preseason? And so we can err on the side of being a little conservative or are we in the playoffs and this is one of our star athletes and we need them on the field. And so we're willing to take a little bit more risk. So yeah, I think that that's a really important framework to utilize because it provides you with that context that surrounds the kind of the risk reward ratio. Speaker 1 (25:59): Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I said to my, this 12 year old, who's now 14, but you know, she, we waited a year, at least a year for return to sport and then COVID hit and that night Oh yeah. Which I have to say, I wasn't mad about two years, you know, that's awesome. But you know, like what I told her was exactly what you she's like, Oh, do you think I can like play in this, you know, showcase she's an eighth grade. Yeah. No Roland showcase. And I was like, listen, here's the deal. Can you do this? Yes. Will you be at your best? No. Are you going to college? Is if this, what? And I said, it was like, if this was your senior year and it was the last game Speaker 2 (26:45): Sure. Have at it, you know, Speaker 1 (26:47): But it's not, so you're not going to do it. Are we in agreement there? And, and that's the hard part, right. Is trying to say to like a 12 or 13 was 13 or 14, 13 maybe was, do you want to play in high school? Yes. Would you like to play in college? Yes. Well then you don't need to do this exam because we're not taking any unnecessary risks and that's kind of, how did that start framework is looking at that context and I'm sure you have those difficult conversations all the time. Speaker 2 (27:15): All the time. Yeah. It, and especially after something like Nazi has already been cleared by a physician or previous physical therapist or athletic trainer or whomever, and then it's like, Oh no, I know that you were cleared, but we'll, you are certainly not ready. And just having that conversation can be difficult, but as super important, because all they're going to do is go right back. And the likelihood of them getting another ACL injury within the first year or two is pretty substantial. So sometimes scare tactics, work a little in that regard. Speaker 1 (27:46): And it's not, it's just, you're just being honest. Yeah. Like you can't like, you're the professional, you're the expert. They're the patient they're going to you because you're the expert. Yeah. Right. And so you have to be honest and you have to be upfront and you have to give them all of the options that they have and looking at things realistically, because just, you know, people say, Oh, runners, they just want to run. Well, it's the same with any sport soccer players. They just want to play soccer, football, I just want to play. And so there there's a lot of mental gymnastics that can happen in one's brains in order to justify doing that. Speaker 2 (28:21): Definitely. I think athletes actually appreciate that when you say like, like maybe in the moment they're frustrated, but it's not with you. It's just with the situation. And I think that makes it easier to swallow is that like, Hey, like they appreciate knowing that you're taking that context into consideration. Like, say like, Hey, if you're going to get re-injured, it's going to be in the championship game, not in a preseason friendly, like what sense does that make? And I think they do for the most part, appreciate that and understand it. Even if, again, in the moment it frustrates them a little bit. Yeah. Speaker 1 (28:51): I mean, there's a little bit of disappointment, but you know, something it's upsetting Speaker 2 (28:56): Templating moment. Get over it. You'll be fine. I feel the same. Exactly. I've never said that, but in my head I'm like, you'll be fine. You'll be to sign. Yeah. Like 10 years. That's fine. If you do it again and have to go through another year of this Speaker 1 (29:09): Exactly. Like 10 years from now, you're not going to be like, man, I didn't get to play in this showcase when I was in eighth grade. Speaker 2 (29:17): Yeah. Definitely not. It doesn't make sense. Speaker 1 (29:20): So I think thank you for bringing up that start framework and we'll try and get links to all of this and put them into the show notes so that everyone if you're looking for those papers on on-field rehab, the start framework and the consensus, we'll get all those and put them into the show notes. So you one click and everybody can read all of them. So Nicole, before we end our talk is the question I ask everyone. And that's knowing where you are now in life and career. What advice would you give to your younger self? Speaker 2 (29:51): I would definitely tell myself to be patient. I came out of school thinking like, okay, I just want to work with athletes. You know, I have to find a place where I can just do that. And anything else I do is a waste of time. And what I will say, what I would tell myself is that every experience is valuable and you can relate any experience to what you eventually ended up doing. Even working with a, you know, if it working with the elderly population that has nothing to do with working with athletes, but teaching them a new skill. If you can teach it an older person, who's never worked out a new skill, you can teach an athlete, a new skill, right. It's somebody who's like coordinated and strong and athletic as opposed to an older individual who's never worked out before. So I think that I would tell myself again, just be patient there's value in every experience and yeah, you'll, you'll eventually get to what you're looking for. Just take it, take things in stride and learn from each experience. Speaker 1 (30:56): Excellent advice. Now, where can people find you on social media? I think you've also got an ebook available. So give us all the goods. Speaker 2 (31:03): Yes. So you could to reach out to me. I'm I'm on social media. Instagram is at Dr. Nicole PT. My Twitter is at Encirca physio and my website is Nicole Serta, physio.com. I have a blog there that I grew up on this. I'm going to try to write more. I took a little hiatus. You had, Speaker 1 (31:28): I had a major change of life yourself from California to Portland and a new job. And so I think we, we understand we'll give you Speaker 2 (31:40): We're in the middle of a pandemic. So yeah, I think somewhere in the middle of the Vietnam, I just kind of lost a little motivation there Speaker 1 (31:48): With you all. Speaker 2 (31:51): Okay. It's okay. There's no need to like, feel guilty if you're in the same boat, cause I'm right there with you. But yeah, I will be writing more on that blog. I have actually a couple of different topics on the blog. One is just kind of rehab of soccer related injuries. And then I talk about some of the social issues related to soccer, things like racism and soccer and inclusion and diversity and things like that. And then also I have this little fun part. That's kind of just for me as a little self-indulgent, but life lessons that I've learned through soccer. And so that's on there as well. I also have some eBooks on my website. You can get to just by going and Nicole Serta, physio.com and it's under the eBooks tab. So on an ACL injuries, ankle injuries maybe hamstring injuries too. There's a couple on there now. Awesome. yeah, that's it. Excellent. Well, Nicole, Speaker 1 (32:42): Thank you so much. This was great. I great addition to our month on ACL injury and rehab. So I thank you very, very much. Thank you Speaker 2 (32:52): For having me on carrying this. When I graduated PT school, this is the first PT podcast I started listening to. So it's awesome to be on it. It's come full circle. It truly has. Yes. Speaker 1 (33:04): Well thank you and everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

Episode Summary In this episode physical therapist, biomechanist, and researcher,Dr. Amy Arundale talks about how to decrease the risk of ACL injury.  Amelia (Amy) Arundale, PT, PhD, DPT, SCS is a physical therapist and researcher.  Amy is transitioning to a new role as a physical therapist at Red Bull’s Athlete Performance Center in Thalgua, Austria. Today, Amy tells us about injury-prevention programs, communicating with different stakeholders, and helping empower athletes through education. We also get to hear about her recent publication on Basketball, Sports medicine, and rehabilitation. How does motor-learning, creative thinking, and problem-solving relate to ACL injuries? Amy tells us about implementation and compliance with injury-prevention programs, internal versus external cues as they relate to injury prevention, and the gaps in the research, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “We’ve got great information. We know these programs can work, but for them to work, you have to do them.” “You may be a physio, and you may have this injury-prevention knowledge, but you don’t have to be there for this to happen. It’s just as effective for you to run this program as it is for a coach or a parent to run it.” “It’s exciting to see where this next generation is going to be because I think we’re going to have some athletes that are more empowered to know more about their body.” “We need to be better at reporting our biases, looking at our subject populations, and funding and encouraging studies outside of ‘the global North.’” Giving yourself the space and kindness to recognise that you don’t know everything and make it a point to learn more is good therapy.   More about Amy:  Amelia (Amy) Arundale, PT, PhD, DPT, SCS is a physical therapist and researcher. Originally from Fairbanks, Alaska, she received her Bachelor’s Degree with honors from Haverford College. Gaining both soccer playing and coaching experience throughout college, she spent a year as the William Penn Fellow and Head of Women’s Football (soccer) at the Chigwell School, in London. Amy completed her DPT at Duke University and throughout gained experience working at multiple soccer clubs in the US and Norway. Amy applied this experience working at Balance Physical Therapy providing physical therapy for the Capitol Area Soccer Club (now North Carolina F.C. Youth) and the U23 Carolina Railhawks. In 2013, Amy moved to Newark, Delaware to pursue a PhD under Dr. Lynn Snyder-Mackler. Amy’s dissertation examined primary and secondary ACL injury prevention as well as career length and return to performance in soccer players. After a short post-doc in Linköping, Sweden in 2017, Amy joined the Brooklyn Nets as a physical therapist and biomechanist as well as The Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Health System as a visiting scientist. Currently, Amy is transitioning to a new role as a physical therapist at Red Bull’s Athlete Performance Center in Thalgua, Austria. Outside of work, Amy plays Australian Rules Football for both the New York Magpies and US National Team.  Amy has also been involved in the APTA and AASPT, including serving as Director of the APTA’s Student Assembly, a member of the APTA’s Leadership Development Committee, chair of the AASPT’s Membership Committee, and currently as a member of the AASPT Diversity and Inclusion Committee.   Suggested Keywords ACL, Injuries, Recovery, Injury-Prevention, Learning, Sports, Physiotherapy, Research, PT, Rehabilitation, Health, Therapy,   Recommended reading https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/54/21/1245     To learn more, follow Amy at: Instagram:       @squeakyedgar LinkedIn:         Amelia (Amy) Arudale Twitter:            @soccerPT11   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:  https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:      https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:    Speaker 1 (00:07): Welcome to the healthy, wealthy, and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness, and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information. You need to live your best life. Healthy, wealthy, and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. Speaker 2 (00:38): Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am your host. Karen Lindsay, and today's episode is brought to you by net health net health therapy for private practices, a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. That's right. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus a lot more in one super easy to use package. Right now, Neta health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners. Complete a demo with the net health team and get $100 towards lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/ [inaudible] to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y my last name very, very easy now onto today's episode. So what we're doing with the podcast this month, and really every month going forward is we're going to have several guests that are all going to talk about one topic in various forums. Speaker 2 (01:40): This month, our topic is ACL injury and rehabilitation. And my first guest is not only an incredible physical therapist, a great researcher, but also a great friend of mine. That is Dr. Amelia, Aaron Dale, or Amy Arundale. So Amy is a physical therapist and researcher originally from Fairbanks, Alaska. She received her bachelor's degree with honors, from Haverford college, gaining both soccer, playing and coaching experience throughout college. She spent a year as the William Penn fellow and head of women's football at the Chigwell school in London. Amy completed her DPT at Duke university and throughout gained experience working at multiple soccer clubs in the U S and Norway. Amy applied this experience working at balanced physical therapy, providing physical therapy for the capital area soccer club. Now North Carolina FC youth, and the U 23 Carolina rail Hawks. In 2013, Amy moved to Newark Delaware to pursue a PhD under Dr. Speaker 2 (02:40): Lynn Snyder, Mackler Amy's dissertation examined primary and secondary ACL injury prevention, as well as career link and returned to performance in soccer players. After a short postdoc in Linkoping Sweden in 2017, Amy joined the Brooklyn nets as a physical therapist, the biomechanics as, as the Icahn school of medicine at Mount Sinai health system, as a visiting scientist, currently, Amy is transitioning to a new role as a physical therapist at red bull's athletic performance center in Austria, outside of work, Amy plays Australian rules football for both the New York magpies and us national team. She has also been involved in the AP TA in the AA S P T, which is the American Academy of sports physical therapy, including serving as director of AP TA student assembly, a member of the AP TA's leadership development committee, chair of the AASP membership committee, and currently as a member of the AASP T diversity and inclusion committee. Speaker 2 (03:37): So what do we talk about today? All about ACL's right. So we talk about injury prevention and risk mitigation programs, how they work, what the pros and cons are how collaboration is so necessary amongst all stakeholders and why exciting new research that includes motor learning principles, creative thinking, and problem solving, and are there gaps in the literature and what can we, as clinicians and as researchers do about those gaps in the research. Now, the other thing Amy has so generously done for our listeners is she is going to give away one copy of basketball, sports medicine in science. This is a book that she was involved in as an editor, and it is over 1000 pages. The book is massive, it's huge. And she's going to give a copy away to one lucky listener. So how do you win that copy? All you have to do is go to my Instagram page. My handle is at Karen Lindsey, and you will find out how to win a copy of basketball, sports, medicine, and science. Again, that's go to my Instagram page at Karen Lindsey, and we will give this book away to one lucky listener at the end of the month of February. So you have the whole month to sign up for this. So a huge thanks to Amy and everyone enjoyed today's episode. Speaker 3 (05:04): Hey, everybody, welcome back to the podcast. So this month we're going to be examining ACL injuries and ACL rehab. And my first guest this month to help take us through the ACL Mays is Dr. Amy Arundale. So Amy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. We're starting up at the beginning of the year with the A's with it. I didn't even think about that. Yes. But then next month we go right to running and just skip everything else in between. That's fine. Excellent. So Amy, before we get into sort of the meat of the episode, what I would love for you to do is tell the listeners a little bit more about some of your more current research projects, things like that. So I will hand it over to you. Sure. So I'm just finishing Speaker 4 (05:58): Up as a physical therapist and biomechanics at the Brooklyn nets. So I've been working clinically with them and then doing a little bit of kind of in-house research as well. And then on the side have been working on a few different projects. The biggest one right now is starting the revisions for the knee and ACL injury prevention me Andrew prevention, clinical practice guidelines. So those were originally published in [inaudible] in 2018 and clinical practice guidelines get revised every three years. So 2021 we're due for we're due for a revision. So that's my, the biggest project I've got going right now. And a few other things working with the United States Australian rules, football league on some injury surveillance and injury prevention, particularly on the women's side. And I'm getting ready to move to Austria to begin working for red bull and I, which I'm really excited about that. Speaker 3 (07:04): Amazing, amazing. They all sound really like really great projects. And since you brought up injury prevention, let's dive into that first. So there are a lot of injury prevention programs. So can you talk a little bit about those programs in general, and then talk about really, what is what's really key for injury prevention in our athletes when it comes to those programs? Speaker 4 (07:34): Absolutely. So there's a range of different programs that have all been published on and some of them are probably a little better known than others. The FIFA 11 plus, or what's now known as just the 11 plus maybe the, one of the most notable it actually came out of a program that was called the pep program. So the 11 plus was kind of aimed at soccer players, although it has been tested in other athletes and it's considered, it's kind of a dynamic warmup. So it has some dynamic stretching and some running, some strengthening, neuromuscular control, some balance exercises within it. And most of the programs that we see that have been researched are similar kind of dynamic warmups and include a variety of different things that help athletes kind of get warmed up. So some of the other ones that have been published on include the control or knee control program coming out of Sweden at the microburst and the ACL prevention in Norwegian handball has had some great success and great literature. Speaker 4 (08:47): There's the harmony program and then the sports metrics programs a little bit different. It's actually a program that was designed to be kind of a in and of itself. So it's a three times a week, 90 minute per program, primarily plyometric based. So it's a little bit different from the other programs, but has also been successful. So we've got a number of these programs that we've seen to reduce knee and ACL injuries in particular. And most of them actually have been quite successful at reducing just injuries as a whole. But the key components that we see in particular being important for ACL and knee injuries are that these programs have a strength component. So they're building strength, particularly in the hips, the quads, the hamstrings, but also in the core. So it kind of proximal in like terms of like hip and core strengthening, being important plyometric component seems to be important. To some extent a balance component may be important, although that's kind of questionable as to like how important that is. And that's one of the things that we still need more literature on is how do these components interact and influence each other? Because we seem to know what we think is important, but how much and how those different components interact. We still don't know as much about. Speaker 3 (10:25): And when we're talking about these programs, I would imagine some of the most difficult aspects of them, especially if we're looking at a younger population. So your high school, even collegiate athletes is doing them. Yup. So can you talk a little bit about implementation and compliance with these programs and how to instill that into these players and teams? Speaker 4 (10:57): Yeah, I think, you know, we've got, like you said, we've got great information. We know these programs can work, but for them to work, you have to do them. And that implementation piece, you know, whether that be in clinical research you know, we talk about that gap between research and clinical practice. We really see that here in ACL injury prevention. And part of that also is it's not just physios in implementing where we've got a whole range of stakeholders, whether those be the athletes themselves, to coaches who are often running training sessions to parents who really have to kind of be bought in to teams and clubs as a whole. Because if you have a culture that kind of instills the importance of doing a prevention program, then it's going to kind of, it may benefit in kind of trickling down. And that's also a wider culture as well. Speaker 4 (11:58): Social media scene pro teams do it. There's all sorts of layers to this. But what I think implementation really takes is identifying with that athlete or that team what's what are barriers what's important? What do we feel is, is most important? What's not as an important, and then coming up together kind of, kind of with a collaborative strategy to overcome what are those barriers? So we know information and knowledge kind of that buy-in is important. Why the why, why are we doing this in the first place? But then there's also some of the actual practical pieces of your athlete might not want to do an exercise lying down in the grass because that grass might be wet. They're going to be wet for the rest of their training session, wet and cold for the rest of their training session. So I think it has to be a really collaborative effort. Speaker 4 (12:59): And each in each situation that solution may look a little bit different. We've got some really kind of interesting information coming out. For example, the 11 plus has now a couple of studies on breaking it apart. So taking some of the pieces, for example, taking the strengthening pieces and putting them at the end of training sessions. So coaches often complained that, you know, these injury prevention programs take too long and when you've only got the field for an hour, they don't want to give up 20 minutes of their training session to do this program. So now let's take, maybe we can take this strength piece out. I means, all right. So maybe it's 10 minutes warming up at the beginning. That's probably a little easier for a coach to swallow. Then as we're cooling down, maybe we're off the pitch where we get everybody together, we finished those strengthening components. So we're still getting the entire prevention program done with that training session, but it's split up. And so thinking creatively like that are some of the ways that I think we can do a lot better in our implementation, rather than just saying, do this, here you go. Why aren't and then coming back and saying, well, why aren't you doing it? Speaker 3 (14:18): Right, right. Oh, that's, that is really interesting that and what is, does the research show that splitting it up is still as effective? Speaker 4 (14:28): Yeah. From what we know thus far, it does seem to be as effective. I think there's some other projects that are starting to look at, can you actually do that strengthening piece at home now there's other pieces that, you know, compliance at home, remembering doing those exercises the right way that could come into play there. But as of right now, what it seems like splitting it up does seem, seem to be splitting it up. At least within a training session does seem to be as effective. Speaker 3 (14:58): Excellent. And so aside from time and constraints on like you said, wet grass, things like that, what are some other common barriers that you have seen or that the research has shown to be a barrier to doing any of these? The above mentioned prevention programs. Speaker 4 (15:21): Yeah. I think coaching education is a really big one. So whether there's a few studies in Germany that we're just looking at a coach's awareness of the 11 plus and for a program that's kind of sponsored by FIFA, you know, it's promoted as kind of this soccer warmup, you would think that coaches would be kind of aware of it. And it's, it's very quite, it's actually quite surprising how few coaches are, are aware of it. Part of that is it's not in their coaching education. So at least in soccer, as coaches move up, what kind of within the ranks and, and in higher level teams, they've got a complete licenses, just like you have to complete a license to be a physio and complete continuing education in soccer coaches do to getting that program into that coaching education, I think is a really important piece. Speaker 4 (16:18): But then there's also the piece of helping them understand, again, coming back to that, why, you know, yeah, you want your players to be available. You don't want your players injured. And that's not just a, an immediate fact, but helping them understand the long-term implications, especially of something like an ACL injury, this is not an injury. That's just going to mean you don't have this athlete for a year. This is something that's going to affect how they play long-term it's gonna affect their knee long-term it could affect their career. So this has long-term implications. Buy-In also can come from kind of some of the performance effects, the stronger, faster, more talented athlete that's that there are some of those performance effects coming potentially from performing some of these injury prevention programs or injury prevention or injury risk medic mitigation programs that can help buy in. Speaker 4 (17:22): And then if we just look at Google would cut straight to the chase, is coaches want to win oftentimes and money. If you've got more players available, we know more players available equals a more successful team. And even Holly silver is actually in some of her dissertation work looked straight at the more you do the 11 plus the more successful the NCAA division one men's team was. So there's, there's she, she actually was able to draw a connection between doing the FIFA 11 plus and winning that those are the types of things that oftentimes coaches will latch onto and say, yeah, I want to win. Or clubs will say, yeah, we want to win. We want to do that thing that makes us that, that next level that makes us better at the higher levels that keeps us earning money. Speaker 3 (18:18): Okay. Exactly. So from, from what it sounds like is to get these programs implemented is you need a lot of collaboration from everyone, from all the stakeholders, whether it be the coaches, the trainers, the physios, the players, the owners, when we're talking about big league teams and, and with our younger, our younger subset of athletes, parents, coaches, and the kids themselves. And, and I guess communicating the value of these programs depends on who you're talking to, which is why, if you're the physio communicating the program, you really have to have a different set of communication bullet points, if you will, if you will, for each person on the, within that team, because you're going to talk differently to a parent than you are to an owner of a team, or you're going to talk differently to a coach than the player or the parents. So really knowing how to, how to talk to those stakeholders is key. And I think everything you just said will kind of help people understand how to have those different conversations with different people. Speaker 4 (19:26): Yeah. And I think there's all the other piece that some of those conversations is really empowering them. So there's the education piece and helping them understand, but there's also the empowerment piece that you may be a physio and you may have this injury prevention knowledge, but you don't have to be there for this to happen. It's just as effective for you to run this program as it is for a coach or a parent to run it. And we have, there's some good data on that that coaches can run really effective injury prevention programs. And so helping them kind of take on that role and say, yeah, no, I, I feel confident in taking my players through this. I feel confident in knowing why we're doing this there. I think that's the second piece too, is that it kind of empowerment piece, and maybe it's a player, maybe it's a captain that, that needs that education or that kind of empowerment as well. Speaker 4 (20:31): I think the generation of players that's growing up now is going to be very different from the generation of players say that you and I played played with we didn't understand or really have much of this. Whereas I think there's some really, there's some kids growing up now who are growing up with some amazing knowledge. And I think also coming with it, hopefully some better strength, some more and more neuromuscular control than maybe we had coming through puberty as well. So I think it's exciting to kind of see where this next generation is going to be, because I think we're going to have some athletes that are just like that more empowered to know more about their body. Maybe have a little bit more control maybe even coming with also potentially better talent who knows, who knows? Yeah. TBD to be determined. So you mentioned a little bit about motor learning. So let's dive into that a little bit because there is new research that includes motor learning, problem solving creative thinking. So what exactly does that mean in relationship to ACL injury? Speaker 2 (21:51): No, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and we will be right back net health therapy for private practice as a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. That's right. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus lots more and one super easy to use package right now, net health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners completed demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars towards lunch for your staff visit net health.com/lindsey to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y. Speaker 4 (22:38): Yeah. So I think it's a really exciting area. And I think we're really just kind of tipping a little bit of the iceberg. People are starting to pay attention to some of the work that's coming out. And I think it's, it is really exciting and in the kind of prevention realm what we're seeing is people kind of pointing out that the programs that we have, we know we kind of have some principles of motor learning, but the programs in injury prevention that we have haven't really paid much attention to them. So at a very basic level one of the things that has been talked about from a motor learning perspective for a while now is internal versus external cues. So we know that giving an external cube, giving an output outcome focused, Q2 and athlete is going to help them keep that motion kind of more automatic. They're not going to be thinking about like, I need my hip in line with my knee in line with my toe and foot, my knee. Can't go too far over my shoe laces. I need to sit down. Speaker 3 (23:50): That's a lot to think about. Yeah. You can't Speaker 4 (23:52): Play a sport while you're thinking about all those things. Yeah, Speaker 3 (23:55): Yeah, no, no. Speaker 4 (23:58): So when that, if that cue is external or is outcome-based suddenly that athlete's much, much more, much better able to pay attention to the soccer ball that's flying past them or getting ready to, to bat. Speaker 3 (24:13): And can you let's if you wouldn't mind, just so people have a better idea of what an internal versus an external cue is. Can you give an example of, let's say a situation we'll use soccer as the example and give an internal cue and then give an external cue so that people can differentiate. Speaker 4 (24:34): Yeah. Yeah. So maybe, maybe we'll do say we're doing like a single leg squat, similar to what I, what I just said. So an internal cue might be, I want you to keep your hip, your knee and your foot all in one straight line that external cue might be giving them a we'll say a pole that's lined up in front of them and you might not even tell them what they're, what what's going on. Maybe you've got a pole in front of a mirror, so that's poles running vertically and they're, they're they're we, we just set them up so that their foot's in front of that pole and they're doing that single leg squat. So now you've got a visual line in front of them. You're paying their, their attention is going to be on that visual line. As they're doing that single leg squat, suddenly you see that they see that like, if their hips pretty far adducted or their knees collapsing in, you've got a line you can say, focus on that line. I'm going to focus on that line. Got it. That one, it isn't their body. Other cues, maybe like giving analogies I want you to think of your body as a column or that's, that's not a brilliant one. But you know, things like that. So analogies are helpful for external cues. They're also we'll get in, I'll get into that in a, in a sec, cause they're actually another, Speaker 3 (26:10): Go get into it, get into it. Speaker 4 (26:12): So analogies also bring in another piece of motor learning, which is called implicit learning. Again, kind of having that internal picture of what emotion should like should look or what that motion should feel like is implicit learning. So you've got external and internal, external internal cues, but you've also then got kind of implicit learning. So a great example of implicit learning is when you ask, you know, a really athlete to explain what they do on the court or on the pitch. And a lot of times they can't put words to what they do. And that's, that's kind of a good example of maybe implicit learning is they've got, there's no rules set to that learning. There is no order. It's just, I've got this internal knowledge, internal picture internal kind of motor memory of what, what that is. And I just execute that. Speaker 4 (27:11): I don't think about it. And so with those, all of my attention can stay to the game. I'm not thinking about how I'm moving. I'm just, just, just kind of to the game. So pulling those back to prevention are kind of injury prevention programs have said, here's a video or here's a picture. This is good. This is bad. Or they've given kind of implicit our internal cues. So those internal cues are those, keep your knee, your hip and your foot all in one straight line where we may benefit and where we might be able to bolster. Some of those programs is by adding some of these, these motor learning pieces at the very basic level, adding external cues, maybe adding some analogies or some implicit learning. Another, another way you can facilitate implicit learning is through dual tasking. One of my favorite things reading through some of the literature is in studying implicit learning. A few authors have taken novice novice golfers, and these novice golfers have, have to go and put, and while they're putting they basically yellow letters. Speaker 4 (28:35): So you literally just be out there like trying to learn to put you, you don't. I know how to put, you may not even get any directions, but you're just out there kind of yelling some letters, because if you have to generate letters, you can't be entirely focused on that pudding. So there's that aspect actually, of having two tasks going on at once. That means not all your attention can be on one of those tasks. How does that help? How does that help the movement? Yeah, so, so that's a very good question. What it means is, as you're learning, it it's like harder, but yeah, once you get to that kind of point where you're comfortable, you're able to execute that movement. It's an automatic movement, it's unconscious, it's automatic. And when we put that in the context of sport, that means that movement is happening without the athlete thinking about it and their attention remains, remains elsewhere. Their attention can remain on the game, that's going on the ball, that's flying at them. You know, that random thing that just flew by them that wasn't the ball and wasn't part of the game, but could be that perturbation, that in another situation could be distracting enough and could lead to an injury situation. Potentially. Speaker 3 (29:58): Got it, got it. Yeah. Like I, and you and I have had this conversation before, because I have a young athlete and we're doing, trying to do incorporate some of this stuff. So one of the things we're doing is I'm having her do some unpredictability drills with clock yourself, but we're trying to do them in Spanish. So she has to say things in Spanish as she's doing them. So that she's a little do. So she's accomplishing this kind of dual tasking. And, and I will also say it's fun. It's fun for the patients, fun for the therapist. And they kind of understand while they're why they're doing those things. And then every once in a while, just like throw a ball at her and see what happens. Speaker 4 (30:42): And you put this in the context then of some of those injury prevention programs and coach buy-in. So let's put Bali's in with single leg squats, but, but you know, squats and you jump into a header. There's already a little bit of some of that in some of the programs, but the more we can get that ball, some of those technical skills involved mix them potentially in with some of the movements that we're working on, maybe that might help with some of these, this kind of adding in some of this motor learning piece. Now I say all of this, none of this has been tested yet to change any of these programs we're really doing or to kind of, we need to go back and test them. And so, you know, this is where I say this, but it is kind of hypothetical, but in thinking about it, as well as we're kind of trying to overcome some of those barriers, that 10 minutes, that we're not, maybe we're at 10 to 15 minutes where we're trying to convince a coach to do something. Speaker 4 (31:49): Coaches are going to buy in a lot more. If there's a, if they can build some skills into that or they can see the sport reflected in it, rather than it just being kind of this abstract quote unquote injury prevention program. So can we get some of this dual tasking, can we get some of this kind of real world kind of environment type demands and challenges integrated in with some of those pieces that we're trying to build from a neuromuscular standpoint, can we mix them all together and end up with a maybe potentially more beneficial outcome? Speaker 3 (32:26): Yeah. And, you know, as you're saying all of this, it's kind of opening my mind up into these programs as being these living, breathing programs that aren't set in stone and that have the ability to change and morph over time as research continues to evolve. And I think that's really exciting for these programs as well, because you don't want to have these programs be thought of as stale because then that's going to not help with your buy-in. Speaker 4 (32:55): Yep. Yeah. And that's one of the complaints that you sometimes see about some of these programs is all right, so my team's done him for a season. They've all mastered, you know, all my players have mastered this program. They're bored of it now. And the likelihood that every single one of your players has mastered every single one of those exercises is that we'll put that into question, but we'll put that one on the side, but yeah, if you're doing the exact same program, the exact same exercise, every single training session for multiple years, yeah. Your players are going to get bored of it. And so are these, some of the opportunities where we kind of help with that buy in where we make it a little bit more creative, where we help kind of with some of those implementation pieces to make it more interesting to make it more long-term and to, to really help with people wanting to do them. Speaker 3 (33:50): I think it's great. And now we're, we've spoken a little bit about research here and there. So let's talk about any gaps in the research. So, I mean, are there gaps in the research? I feel like, of course, but are these gaps something that can't be overcome? Speaker 4 (34:09): No. All of the gaps that at least dive I'm aware of, and I'm sure there are more I just finished writing a paper alongside Holly and grant the Mark. So Holly silvers and, and Gretta microburst for the journal of orthopedic research. And, and one of the things that we did was kind of go through the literature and identify some of the gaps. Speaker 3 (34:35): What were, what were they, you don't have to say all of them, just give a couple of a couple of the big ones, Speaker 4 (34:42): But one of the big ones is a lot of our literature is focused on women, which is important, but in total numbers, we still have more ACL's happening in men. So we need more research in men. A lot of our research is in soccer and handball. There's a lot of other high-risk sports at there. So there were focused kind of on team sports but there is some pretty high risk team sports, something like net ball play ball volleyball have very high ACL injury numbers, individual sports things like gymnastics and wrestling. And those are also Tufts sports to come back to they're very high impact or they're very MBA. They've got some crazy positions that you don't see. So individual sports, I think have quite lacked outside of skiing. Skiing's got a lot of attention. One of the biggest ones that I think for me is really important is we don't have good reporting of the subjects and the diversity within the research that we've done. Speaker 4 (35:51): So most of the, the research that's been done has been done in the U S some in Canada and in Scandinavia, or at least in Europe as a whole, there's been a few studies that have been in in Africa. But we even within the studies that we have in the us and Europe and Australia, we don't, none of them have reported any of the, like really the, the, the race or ethnicity of the athletes who were part of them. So those may have implications and Tracy Blake did a amazing BJSM blog that was kind of a call to action for researchers. And it's one that I'd love to echo here that we need to be better at reporting our biases looking at our, our subject populations and funding and encouraging studies outside of kind of we'll call it quote, unquote, the global North. I think that's, that's a big gap that we need to fill and we need to be more aware of. Speaker 3 (37:01): Excellent. And on that note, we are going to wrap things up, but what I would like you to do is number one, is there anything that we didn't cover or anything more that you want to add to any of the subjects we covered? Speaker 4 (37:16): Ooh, I know you always ask this question and I always have never prepared for it. Speaker 3 (37:23): Well, you know, cause I don't want to like skirt over something and then the guests at the end is like, I really wanted to say this. And she just ended the interview. Speaker 4 (37:32): Think of it probably right before I go to bed. Probably. Speaker 3 (37:36): I can't think of anything right now. Okay. Speaker 4 (37:39): Excellent. Excellent. For any readers who haven't read Dr. Tracy Blake's BJSM post definitely go check it out. We'll put the link in. Speaker 3 (37:47): Yeah. Yeah. We'll put the link into the show notes here. So you can read her blog app over at BJSM and I agree. It was it was very well written and it was a really nice call to action and or call to awareness. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Right. Maybe not call to action, but certainly a call to awareness, which is step one in the sequence of actionable moves. Definitely. So yes, she's a gym. So now before we wrap things up I'll ask the same question to you that I asked to everyone and knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to yourself as a new grad? Let's say like not new grad PhD grad, but new Speaker 4 (38:36): Duke grad, new, new grad coming out of Duke PT school. I'm trying to think of what I said the last time I was on. Speaker 3 (38:46): Well, don't say it again. No, I'm just kidding. Speaker 4 (38:48): Well, yeah, that's what I'm worried about saying the same thing again. I think what I said last time, but what is my like big thing is being more gentle on myself. When I came out of PT school, I started work. I was the first new hire new grad that they'd hired. And so I was working alongside some just phenomenal clinicians, but they had the least experience, one head, like 15 years of experience. And I came out of school, unexpected myself to kind of treat and operate on the, kind of the same experience level that they did. And I it's just not possible. So I've spent a lot of time kind of beating myself up. And so it takes a lot of reminding even now that like, I still have, you know, I've graduated in 2011. So I'm coming up on 11 years of experience and it's still not a lot in a lot of ways. So being gentle on myself that I don't have to come up with, you know, everything on the spot that I don't don't necessarily have the experience to know or have seen everything or every course or development. And so being okay with that and being gentle and allowing myself to be, to, to just be where I'm at is, is I think Speaker 3 (40:08): It's wonderful advice. And just think if you thought you did know everything, I mean, how boring number one and number two, you'd never move on for sure. Speaker 4 (40:18): Yeah. Yeah. Right. So Speaker 3 (40:20): You're stuck. You'd be pretty stuck. So giving yourself the space and the kindness to say, Hey, I don't know everything. So I'm going to make it a point to learn more is just good therapy. It's just being a good PT, being a good physio, you know, otherwise you're just stuck in 2011. I mean Speaker 4 (40:41): Gotcha. Yeah. 11 wasn't bad, but I'm glad I'm not stuck there. Speaker 3 (40:45): Yeah. I mean, what a bore, right. You'd be like so boring as a PT cause you would never advance. Speaker 4 (40:51): Yeah. So your ex Speaker 3 (40:54): Excellent advice. And now where can people find you on social media and elsewhere? Speaker 4 (40:59): So I am on Twitter at, at soccer, PT 11 I'm on Instagram at squeaky Edgar. I will note that's actually more personal but follow me anywhere cause you'll get some great, great adventures. And those are my primaries social media. Speaker 3 (41:20): Excellent. And before we hop off, can you talk quickly about basketball, sports, medicine Speaker 4 (41:26): Science? Oh yeah. I forgot to talk about that in my projects. Speaker 3 (41:30): Yeah. Let's talk about this quickly. Yes. So Speaker 4 (41:34): Was honored to be a part of an editorial group that just completed. I just got a book out. It's an ASCA public, a publication on basketball, sports medicine and rehabilitation. So it's a quite the book. But I say that because it is over over 1100 pages if I remember correctly. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a chunk of a book. But we are, I've got an extra copy of it. So one of our allowed visitors really be getting a copy. Okay. Speaker 3 (42:15): Well Amy, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time. Speaker 4 (42:19): Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun. Speaker 3 (42:21): Everyone else. Thank you for listening. Have a great couple, have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart. Speaker 2 (42:28): A big thank you to Dr. Amy Erindale for coming on the podcast today. And of course a big thank you to net health. Again, they have created net health for private, for net health therapy for private practice, which is a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. One piece of software that handles scheduling documentation, billing reporting needs. Plus a lot more. If you want to check it out, there's a special deal for healthy, wealthy and smart listeners. Complete a demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars toward lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/glitzy to get started again. That's net health.com/l I T Z. Speaker 3 (43:09): Why thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media.  

In this episode, Owner of Sisu Performance and Physical Therapy, Dr. Ellie Somers, talks about bone stress injuries, specifically in female runners. Today, Ellie tells us about differentiating between the male and female runner, and she elaborates on a subjective and objective exam of a bone stress injury. We learn about the most vulnerable sites for a bone stress injury, the misconception about the severity of the diagnosis, and the strategies Ellie uses to get women on to strength and flexibility training programs. Ellie talks about the concerns that many people have after a BSI, and she gives her younger self some valuable advice, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “Female runners have a lot of particular and special needs and considerations when talking about evaluation from a physical therapist perspective, as well as from a communication standpoint, that need to be considered.” “When you’re getting someone into your clinic, you don’t want to make assumptions about their circumstance.” Things to consider in a subjective exam for a bone stress injury: Is the patient grasping why they got into this situation? A bone stress injury isn’t necessary about the shape of their body or foot, it’s a result of limitations of their dietary intake. Their menstrual cycle. This can be an uncomfortable conversation for many clinicians, but it is a required question for a subjective exam. “If a runner is coming to you explaining that they think they sustained a BSI because of their pronated foot or because they were wearing the wrong shoes, we’ve missed a huge piece of why bone stress injuries actually happen.” The most vulnerable sites for a BSI: The femoral neck, the first and second metatarsal, and the anterior tibia, among others. The objective exam: Palpation, single-leg balance, and walking. More explosive movements. These include the single-leg hops and taking steps up or down. “You can still be stressing bone and it’s going to heal. When we don’t stress bone enough, it could theoretically take longer and put that bone in a more vulnerable position.” “Women athletes are more prone to lower bone density than male athletes are.” “Runners kind of have this misconception that running itself actually strengthens bone. In reality, it doesn’t really strengthen bone as much as we’d like to think.” “History of bone stress injury is the number one risk factor for new bone stress injury.” “There’s no rush. You have your entire life ahead of you to work and refine. As long as you’re working on something, you’re working towards it.”   Suggested Keywords Running Injuries, Rehabilitation, Therapy, Physiotherapy, PT, Training, Injuries, Sport, Wellness, Health, Recovery, Female Runners, BSI, Bone Stress Injury, RTS   More about Dr. Ellie Somers Dr. Ellie Somers is a physical therapist, run coach, weightlifting coach and the owner of Sisu (pronounced see-su) Performance and Physical Therapy in Seattle, WA. She also serves as the team physical therapist for the women’s United States Australian Rules Football Team. As a private practice owner and coach, Ellie specializes in work with women athletes, specifically runners and field athletes.     To learn more, follow Ellie at: Email:              ellie@sisuwolf.com Facebook:       Sisu Performance PT Instagram:       @thesisuwolf Twitter:            @drelliesomers YouTube:        Sisu Sports Performance and Physical Therapy Website:          https://sisuwolf.com/resources/e-books/return-to-run (FREE gift!)   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hey, Ellie, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. Thanks for having me, Karen. So this month we're talking all about running injuries. Just so people coming onto the podcast is the first time you're listening this year, sort of changing up the format each month is a different we're focusing on a different topic. So last month was all about ACL injuries. This month, we're going to concentrate on running injuries, which is why Dr. Lee summers is here. And today we're going to be talking about the female runner. So Ellie, my first question is, are female runners, just little petite male runners, and it should be treated as such. Speaker 2 (00:38): Well, obviously the answer to that question is drum roll, please. No, yeah, yeah. I think female runners have a lot of particular and special needs and considerations when talking about evaluation from a physical therapist perspective, as well as from a communication standpoint that need to be considered. Speaker 1 (01:02): And what kind of, can you kind of differentiate that male runner from the female runner? What are kind of some of the big differences that if you are a physical therapist, a run coach, even a personal trainer, a strength and conditioning coach, what are some things that we need to be aware of in the female runner? Speaker 2 (01:20): You know, the way that I think about this, I actually think about it from a bio-psycho-social perspective. So what women are exposed to in our environments, in our engagement with other human beings, with social dynamics and things of that nature is very different than what men are typically exposed to. I also think of it as you know, generally speaking in terms of adaptability, women and men have the same traits and characteristics, but certainly things that need to be taken into consideration for women include our biology and physiology more specifically our menstrual cycle and hormone cycle. So I tend to think of it as a very holistic thing. And what are the things that female runners might be exposed to that set the stage for certain types of injuries or pain experiences that maybe male athletes aren't or are less likely to be Speaker 1 (02:22): Right. Got it. And so now let's take a common injury that you may see in a female runner, and let's talk about what you would how you would go about your subjective exam, and then we'll get into objective exam and some possible treatment options, but let's take a bone stress injury, pretty common in female runners. So first talk about, well, actually, let's talk about why is that common in female runners? Speaker 2 (02:54): That is a great question. Lots of there's probably a lot of nuance to answering that question. I think theories abound and I'm thinking of those series. I think that the primary thing that we get exposed to as female athletes is how do I want to phrase this considerations about our body and in the run community? I think it's a lot more pervasive for women athletes. So not only are women on the whole exposed to messages about their body, that they need to be smaller, that they need to be thinner in the run community itself. Women are then also exposed to this concept that you'd need to be in order to get faster. You need to be thinner. And that sets the stage for eating disorders and diet restriction and limitation that can lead to bone stress injury. Speaker 1 (03:55): Got it. Okay. So obviously very sensitive subjects. So the subjective exam becomes all the more important. So walk us through maybe how some questions that you would ask and kind of how you would asking keeping that sensitivity of this may be a person that's experiencing maybe some eating disorders or experiencing some body image body image issues. So walk us through your subjective exam. Speaker 2 (04:27): Yeah. So I think it depends on what they're coming to you for and what you know already. So depending on your clinical setting, you might already know they're coming to see me for a bone stress injury. And this person may have already seen a physician and had the imaging done at which point you may not need to dive into a lot of detail there, but I think what you want to try and capture is is this person grasping why they got into this situation. And I think as a clinical provider, that's working to reduce risk, prevent air quotes around prevent these types of injuries. You need to understand that this person knows that bone stress injury isn't necessarily a result of the shape of their body or the shape of their foot. It's the result of really limitations on their dietary intake. So when you're getting somebody into your clinic, you don't want to make assumptions about their circumstance, but I think it, it behooves you to start to ask questions around, you know, do they understand why they got this injury? Speaker 2 (05:40): And if their answer to you is while I was over-training, you might want to start to dig deeper and figure out if you can fill any gaps and holes there to help them understand that fueling strategies are a big contributor to these injuries. So subjectively there's that piece to cover. Then I think you also have to think about how do I want to say this their menstrual cycle basically. And I think for a lot of clinicians, these topics can be very uncomfortable, hard to, to talk about, hard to ask questions of, but when you're doing a subjective exam, this is a required question to be asking, what is your menstrual cycle? Like, are you having regular and normal periods? When did you start your period? At what age, if you're not comfortable asking these questions in a face-to-face manner, or you don't think it's appropriate for you, then they definitely need to be included on your intake forms. And you need to be reviewing your intake forms before you see that person in your clinic. So those would be, I think the two primary things that you need to sort of start to get a picture of, because if a runner is coming to you, explaining that they think they sustained a BSI bone stress injury because of their pronated foot or because they were wearing the wrong shoes, we've missed a huge piece of why bone stress injuries actually happen. Speaker 1 (07:17): And I really do like including that on your intake paperwork, because then even if, whether you're uncomfortable asking that question or not, or you are comfortable either way, I mean, either way, quite frankly, you should be comfortable asking that question. I don't care who you are. You're a physical therapist, you're a healthcare provider. That's a question you should be very comfortable asking because it is part of their medical record. And part of, of like can be part of the reasoning behind these bone stress injuries. But it also gives you if it's on your intake form, it also gives you more information so that when you are in your subjective exam, you can perhaps hone into that and you can even say, Hey, listen, on my on the intake form, I noticed that you're not having like regular periods. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and that's it. Speaker 2 (08:16): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think all it will show you is, is this person having energy demand issues? You know, we know that if you've lost your period or you're having irregular periods, it can be a very clear objective indication that your energy in is not matching your energy out. And it's what we would call somebody suffering from low energy availability or in the, the more maybe more like broad terminology would be relative energy deficiency in sport. And this can cause a host of different and problems. And the last thing you want to do as a clinician or provider is I think miss that, especially in a female runner, because it just sets them up for recurring bone stress injuries, or recurring injuries. And that cycle will just repeat itself. Speaker 1 (09:11): Yeah. Now, okay. So you've asked those questions. Are you asking questions on how much are you running? How often are you running? Have you picked up your mileage and things like that? Is that something that you're asking as well? Speaker 2 (09:25): 100%, because a lot of the times people who are training for a new distance of an event, right? So if I have a person who's like I was training for my first marathon, they might have sustained a bone stress injury as a result of some of that increase in strength in training while also maybe not matching that with their fueling. So it helps you get a picture of what this person is training for and why they're training for it and how much training they have. And then you can move forward from there with a more practical plan as a physical therapist on how we're going to strategize a graded return to activity. Speaker 1 (10:07): Got it. Okay. Any, what else are you asking? What else do you need to know from this patient, Speaker 2 (10:19): Everything else that you would need to know in a physical therapy exam? I think you know, I think for a lot of folks, these injuries are scary and they've disrupted their lives to a great degree. A lot of these runners will have to stop running for months of time. So all of the same questions you would ask, but then I would also add onto that. You want to know, sometimes you want to know, does this person have a registered dietician as part of their care team? Are they working with an endocrinologist? Have they had any blood work done to determine if they were suffering from relative energy deficiency in sport? Do they have a team of people that can help support their progression back to play? Now? I want to be clear. I don't think every single person who has a bone stress injuries requires a team of people. I think it's an ideal. And if I've got somebody who's come in, who's got a bone stress injury, and doesn't have a team of people I'm planting seeds to get them, that team. So that they're set up for success. Speaker 1 (11:34): Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And gosh, I just had a question and it was like in my head and just went it'll it'll come back. It'll anyway, it'll come back to me. I'll edit this part out. It'll come back to me. Cause it was a good one. It's there it's there. I just there's days. It's just it's. I was like, Oh, I got to ask this question anyway. If I think of it later, I'll ask it later and we'll just splice it in. No one will know the difference. Oh yes. Got it. It's back. Okay. So is there a difference when someone is coming to you via direct access, just versus someone has already been to a physician, they have been diagnosed with a bone stress injury. Let's say they had some imaging done. It has shown up where, what is the difference there? Is there a difference in your examination of this person? Speaker 2 (12:28): Yes, absolutely. Because, and I work primarily in a direct access capacity. So by when people come to me, they haven't typically seen anybody else. And now it's my responsibility to be able to pick up on these things and tell someone, you know, I need you to go see your physician. We need to rule out bone stress injury before we move forward. So from a purely exam standpoint, when somebody is coming to me, who is a runner who potentially has pain at a site that could be risk for bone stress injury, I need to have the evaluation skills to be able to, to rule that in or rule that out to some degree so that we can move them in the right. Speaker 1 (13:15): Got it. And what are those sites? What are the most vulnerable sites for a bone stress injury? Speaker 2 (13:21): Well, the femoral neck is one of the most vulnerable, I would say anyone who's coming in, who's a female athlete. Who's complaining of anterior hip pain. That's maybe a little bit vague and is presenting with some of those additional sort of risk factors changes in their menstrual cycle, low energy availability training, abrupt training changes. I'm starting to stew a little bit and get a little bit concerned. So that's going to be a high-risk stress fracture site, some other high risk stress fracture sites include the first and second metatarsal. And I want to say the anterior tibia as well. It's likely that I'm forgetting one, but yeah, some of those regions are considered high risk. High risk essentially means that the likelihood for healing is a little bit harder, I guess you could say. Speaker 1 (14:18): Okay. All right. Thank you. All right. Now let's move on to your objective exam. So what kind of things are you looking for? Are you going to say to this person, let's get you on the treadmill and see what you're doing with your run? Okay. Speaker 2 (14:34): That's the great part of the subjective exam because the subjective exam is going to lead me into thinking whether or not I need to test for bone stress injury before we pursue running. Right. And there are a couple of things that are going to lead you that some of which I've already talked about, but site-specific pain is definitely one of them, localized pain. Sometimes people will point directly to their pain and be like, it's right here. They can have pain in, I know femoral, neck stress fractures. They can have pain with offloading. So sometimes they'll say, you know, like stepping off of a step, I suddenly have pain in my hip. So there are things that you'll just pick up on and then you do not want to get on the treadmill at that point, if you're suspecting bone stress injury, you need to do the tests to sort of rule it out before you get to the treadmill. Some of those tests that I would do, I think first would probably be about palpation. So depending on the area, you know, the femoral neck is Speaker 1 (15:42): D that's tricky. That's a tricky one to help paint, Speaker 2 (15:46): Be able to get there with your hands, but certainly a medial tibial region or an anterior tibial region. You can palpate that with your hands. And we're looking for pretty pinpoint tenderness. From there we might get them up and then first have them walk. What's their walking look like, is there any offloading happening then I might have them do a little single leg balance. How does that feel? A lot of the times people may not have very distinct acute pain with some of these low level impact activities, right? So if they're presenting with no pain, now this sort of, I'm going to describe it as like this first level, no pain with walking, no pain with single leg balance. Now I want to get them doing a little bit of an explosive move, maybe a step up or step down and determine are they having pain with some more functional tasks? And I think the single leg hop test is a pretty, like just straight up and down. Three hops is a pretty decent maneuver for almost any lower extremity potential stress fracture site. You know, I don't know the statistics on reliability and validity, but it's one that I use very regularly with somebody I'm suspecting that. And then from there you can kind of make a determination about how you want to proceed. Typically, speaking of the folks that I work with, they're going to have pain in one of those moves. Speaker 1 (17:20): Yeah. And, and at that point, does it then come down to, if you're seeing them via direct access, explaining to them, Hey, listen, this is my hypothesis. Let's get you to a physician at that point. Yes. Speaker 2 (17:34): Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Usually I'm revealing at that point, I'm concerned for bone stress injury. I want to get you, you know, examined for that. So, and they can, you know, go to their physician that they know and that they trust. But I think it's important depending on the region that we get the right imaging. Certainly if I hip femoral, neck stress fractures suspected, I really want to push that person to try and push for an MRI. So you know, it kind of depends on your relationship with the person and where they're at on a lot of different levels, but, but that's what we're going to be going for. Speaker 1 (18:15): Okay. And so let's say this is someone who has already gone to the physician. They've had the MRI, this is diagnosed. So you've done your evaluation now, what do you do? I guess the question is, is, are they come, are they non-weightbearing at this point? What are, what are some things that we can do as physical therapists for these patients when they're coming in? They've already been diagnosed? Speaker 2 (18:37): Yeah. Well, so many of these athletes don't get referred to physical therapy in the first place, which I think is a problem. But yeah, if you are getting these people, we really do want to be loading those tissues. And bone responds really positively to stress as long as the environment is you know, a strong, healthy, robust environment as well. So depending on their level, we're going to be progressively loading those tissues all the way up into the point where they're cleared for a return to run. So, you know, squats step up step downs. If they're not cleared to weight bear, you know, we're definitely doing stuff on the table, that's just pull it using the muscles around that tissue. And even just by using the muscles around that tissue and the injury, you're stimulating bone adaptations that are positive. Speaker 1 (19:37): And so I guess the, the thing that might come into a patient or a therapist is, well, if I'm non-weightbearing, I don't really want to do anything with this side. Cause what if I make it worse? Right. So is it, is this injury, let's say we're talking about a femoral neck BSI, is this injury so fragile that if you're doing things in a non-weight bearing capacity, can that make it worse? Speaker 2 (20:05): Not typically. You know, I, I, I tend to think that people who have had BSI or are so much more resilient than they get credit for, I have had and seen, and I don't commend this necessarily. So many runners who have run through BSI and there is, there is some toxicity there to unpack that we don't need to do today, of course. But all that tells me is that you can still be stressing bone and it's going to heal. And I think what we know is that when we don't stress bone enough, it could theoretically take longer and put that bone in a more position. So in my opinion, all of these athletes with BSI need to go to a physical therapist so that they can load those tissues up. Yeah, Speaker 1 (20:56): No, that makes, that makes perfect sense. And I just wanted to kind of make that distinction because I'm sure if someone is told, Oh, you have a bone stress injury, you know, scary, scary, right. Very scary. And that's where I think the team comes in. Like you said, assembling this team around that, around that runner is so powerful, Speaker 2 (21:20): Right? I mean, gosh, I think those soft skills are invaluable when working with women who have had BSI, because so many of these runners it's like totally ruined their perception of who they are and their worth and their value. And so you have to be really good at being a kind and generous and thoughtful and considerate to that person's experience because it's still very much in a way I'm going to use the word trauma to them. And I think not everyone is going to be ready to work with a mental health therapist or work with a registered sport dietician. But I think as their support person, your job as a physical therapist is to really listen to what's going on and gain some of that trust so that you can softly nudge them in those directions and work them towards a more robust, healthy lifestyle. Speaker 1 (22:23): Yeah. Because you don't want this single bone stress injury to set off a cascade of other events. That could be really detrimental to them. Not only as an athlete, but just as a person. Speaker 2 (22:36): Right? Yeah. I mean, women athletes are more prone to lower bone density than male athletes are. I'm just women in general. Let's just use women in general and runners, you know, runners kind of have this misconception that running itself actually strengthens bone in reality. It doesn't really strengthen bone as much as we'd like to think. And all that means as women is we need to be thinking about other ways to strengthen our bones. If that's something we care about. Speaker 1 (23:08): Right. And that's where a good strength training program comes in for runners because I have spoken and I have treated plenty of runners and runners like to run when you tell them, Hey, you, we should get you on a robust strengthening program. It's like, what a no. So, yeah. So now let's say you're, we're still in the treatment process. So we're, we're past the, this vulnerable part of the bone stress injury. They're able to weight bear, they're able to do more. What strategies do you use to get these women on to strength, training, flexibility programs? Speaker 2 (23:49): Honestly I show them, I think that's like a big component of how I work with the people that come to see me is showing them what they need to be doing. And first of all, that it's fun and that it can be fun that it's not intimidating and that we can keep it really simple and easy. And it doesn't have to be a huge long laundry list of exercises to keep them healthy. And FEMA women especially are so subject to carrying, you know, a list of 20 to 30 exercises that they're doing to, you know, through the guise of staying, I'm going to use air quotes, healthy and keeping tissues healthy, and it's just way more than it's necessary. So I think part of why women, like working with me is I have been able to really speak their language, pare things down significantly. So that it's simple. It's, you know, 25 to 30 minutes, one, one to three times a week is really all runners need to, to keep that bar trending in the positive direction. Speaker 1 (24:56): Yeah. And I think that's an important distinction to make because oftentimes we think we have to work out five days a week and it has to be this like really complicated. I have to do a chest day. I have to do a leg day. I have to do a hamstring day. I have to do a quad day. I have to. And with all of that said, you're like, Oh, screw it. This is too complicated. I'm just going to run. Yeah, no, Speaker 2 (25:20): I do not blame them whatsoever for giving up on programs in part, because they're just so complicated. And for runners, we just need to keep it simple, keep it clean, keep it short and sweet and to the point and get on, get on our way. Speaker 1 (25:37): Yeah. Excellent. Excellent advice. Now, is there anything that we missed as far as that treatment aspect with these women with bone stress injuries, and obviously we're not going into like individual programming for an individual person because it's so varied. I'm sure. But I guess, are there X speaking of exercises, are there exercises that you do like to include with most of your runners? Speaker 2 (26:06): Yes. So they're getting lower extremity strengthening exercises. So, you know, a squat and a deadlift of some sort, all of my runners will give that we're also going to be incorporating and especially for bone stress, injury, plyometric, explosive exercise. So, you know, squat jumps, counter movement jumps, broad jumps, Pogo jumps. We don't have to do those in like a hit style. If that makes sense. We don't need to be like every minute on the minute you're doing this many jumps or whatever for runners, what we need to be doing is doing it to load the bones for one and two, doing it to create and foster tendon stiffness. And so I think there's a little bit of a misnomer amongst women athletes, especially that in doing plyometrics, they have to be really, really intense. And I'm of the opinion that we want your running to be really, really intense. We don't also need your strength training and your physical therapy to be to the nth degree, intense just needs to be targeted. Speaker 1 (27:21): Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So you don't need to like kill yourself on your workout day and then go out and run the next day with like jelly legs. Right. Speaker 2 (27:30): Exactly. Exactly. Speaker 1 (27:32): Yeah. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense from a running standpoint. It may make sense in, in another population. Yes. But you have to be specific with your population. And this is where the skill of a good physical therapist comes in to be able to tailor that program, to that specific runner and what their needs are, especially coming off of a bone stress injury. Right. Exactly. And is there a fear in the runner after a bone stress injury, and you say to them, let's start doing some jump squats. Like what lady are you kidding me? Yeah. Speaker 2 (28:08): Yeah. I think people are pretty forward with some of their concerns and their worries. And depending on the capacity that you're seeing them, you see it in their body language. Right. But that's why physical therapy is so advantageous because that's where we Excel is helping people understand why something is valuable and then why it's safe. So I think it's about addressing those fears, head on getting at the heart of what they're concerned about and meeting them exactly where they're at. You know, maybe if they're not ready for that, we just try something else. In the meantime, until they're building up confidence, there's not a single person that I've worked with who has had a bone stress injury that doesn't have some of those fears pop up. It is a very real piece of a return to sport on any level. So, Speaker 1 (28:59): Yeah. Agreed. Excellent. Now, is there, is there anything that we missed, anything that we glossed over that you feel like you want to explain to the listeners a little bit more, or do you think we've covered, you know, sort of the high level basics on how you would look at one of these patients with a bone stress injury? Speaker 2 (29:20): Yeah, I think we covered most of it. You know, I think in, you know, reflecting back, it's really just understanding that we don't want to make assumptions about somebody's circumstance. You don't want to assume that somebody with bone stress injury has an eating disorder. I've worked with a number of people who have bone stress injuries, who do not have what I would consider disordered eating to the level that it's clinical. They just didn't understand how much fueling might be required for their activity. So I think in your subjective and in your relationship building with these people, it's important to keep that in mind that we don't need to medicalize everyone that walks in our door with a bone stress injury, but certainly we want to prepare them better for the future. I should also add that history of bone stress injury having had one in the past is the number one risk factor for a new bone stress injury. So in your history, in your subjective exam, that's another great question to ask. Have you ever had a bone stress injury before? If the answer is yes, you're already starting to postulate that that could be a possibility. Speaker 1 (30:33): Got it. Excellent. Excellent. Well, this was great, Ellie. I think that you gave the listeners a really, really robust understanding of looking at bone stress injuries from the point of view of a physical therapist. So thank you very much. This was great. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate being here. Of course. And then where can people find you? Speaker 2 (30:57): Yes. So you can find me on my website, www.cc wolf.com. It's brand new. I'm just going to say brand new France shine. You can also find me on Instagram handle of@theccwolf.com. And if you want to reach out to me personally, I love getting emails from folks it's Ellie, E L L I E at [inaudible] dot com. Speaker 1 (31:23): Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I have one final question for you and it's one that I ask everyone. And that's knowing where you are now in your career and your life. What advice would you give to your younger self? Let's say right out of PT school. Speaker 2 (31:39): There's no rush. There's no rush. I think, you know, as a young PT, it was like, I want to be the best now. And you have your entire life ahead of you to work and refine and you know, as long as you're working on something, you're working towards it. So there's no Speaker 1 (31:58): Excellent advice. I love that. So everyone, no rush, no rush to all those student physical therapists out there. Well, Ellie, thank you so much. This was great. I really appreciate your time. Thanks Karen and everyone. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

In this episode, CEO of Fyzio4U Rehab Staffing Group, Dr. Monique J. Caruth, talks about how she, as a businesswoman, reacted to Covid-19. Dr. Monique J. Caruth, DPT, is the CEO of Fyzio4U Rehab Staffing Group providing home health services in Maryland. She currently serves as the Southern District Chair of Maryland APTA and is the Secretary-elect of the Home Health Section of the APTA. She holds a Masters and PhD in Physical Therapy from Howard University, and she is a proud immigrant from Trinidad & Tobago. Today, we hear what it’s like treating potentially Covid-positive patients, Monique tells us about the screening tool she developed, and we hear about the impact of the pandemic on mental health. Monique elaborates on the importance of Ellie Somers’s list of notable PTs, and she talks about her experiences of losing patients. How did she pivot her business to keep it afloat? How has her perspective as both a clinician and a business owner helped her pivot her business? Monique tells us about obtaining PPE, offering Telehealth visits, and she gives some advice to Home Health PTs, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “We started seeing a spike in clients in mid-April when the hospitals didn’t want to discharge patients to the nursing homes; they were discharging them directly home, so the majority of our clientele were Covid-positive patients.” Monique has started compulsively disinfecting all surfaces. Monique’s screening tool: Step 1: Check temperatures every morning before seeing a patient. Step 2: Ask questions about symptoms, traveling, and possible contact with Covid-positive people. Step 3: Ensure PPE is worn. “Gone are the days of spending extra time and doing extra work there.” “One of the biggest things for therapeutic outcome is having a good relationship with your patients. Going into the home, you’re probably the only person that they’re getting to talk to most days. I saw the need to improve on soft skills and being approachable with your patients.” “Some sort of contact needs to be maintained. Even though some patients may have been discharged, they would contact the physician via Telehealth visit and ask to be seen again.” “Everyone deserves to get quality care.” “Some people say, ‘this person probably got Covid because they were being reckless’. You can slip-up, be as cautious as possible, and still get Covid.” “We’re going to see a huge wave of Covid cases coming in the next few months. With elective surgeries stopped, that’s going to be our only client population. To prevent the furloughs from happening again, I would just advise to do the screenings, get the PPE, and go and see the patients.” Why don’t women get recognition in a profession that’s supposed to be female-dominated? “People send out stuff to vote for top influencers in physical therapy. You tend to see the same names year after year, but you never see one that strictly focuses on women in physical therapy. I see many women doing great things in the physical therapy world, but because they don’t have as many followers on Twitter or Instagram, they don’t get the recognition that they deserve.” “The thing that I love about Ellie’s list is she put herself on it.” “In doing stuff you have to be kind to yourself first and love yourself first. Many of us don’t give ourselves enough praise for the stuff that we do.” “You can’t save everybody. When you just graduate as a therapist, you think you can save everyone and change the world – it takes time.”   More About Dr. Caruth Dr. Monique J. Caruth, DPT, is the CEO of Fyzio4U Rehab Staffing Group providing home health services in Maryland. She currently serves as the Southern District Chair of Maryland APTA and is the Secretary-elect of the Home Health Section of the APTA. She holds a Masters and PhD in Physical Therapy from Howard University, and she is a proud immigrant from Trinidad & Tobago.     Suggested Keywords Therapy, Rehabilitation, Covid-19, Health, Healthcare, Wellness, Recovery, APTA, PPE, Change,   To learn more, follow Monique at: Website:          Fyzio4U Facebook:       @DrMoniqueJCaruth                         @fyzio4u Instagram:       @fyzio4u LinkedIn:         Dr Monique J Caruth Twitter:            @fyzio4u   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hey, Monique. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on. Speaker 2 (00:06): Oh, thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be on once again. Speaker 1 (00:10): Yes. Yes. I am very excited. And just so the listeners know, Monique is the newly minted secretary of the home health section of the APA. So congratulations. That's quite the honor. So congrats. Speaker 2 (00:26): Thank you very much. And Speaker 1 (00:28): We were just talking about, you know, what, what it was like being an elected position. I was on nominating committee for the private practice section. I just came off this year. Not nearly as much work as a board member. But my best advice was you'll you'll make great friendships and great relationships. And that's what you'll take forward aside from the fact that it's, you know, a little bit more work on top of the work you're already doing Speaker 2 (00:57): Well, I better get my bearings, right. So I will be on task from the one. Yeah. Speaker 1 (01:04): Yeah. I'm sure you will. And now, today, we're going to talk about how you as a business woman pivoted reacted to COVID. So we're, Monique's in Maryland, I'm in New York city. So for us East coasters, it really well, we know it hit New York city very hard in March in Maryland. When did that wave sort of hit you guys? Was it around the same time? Speaker 2 (01:33): I would say mid March, April because I had returned back to the rest of the first week of March. And then things just started going crazy. They were saying, Oh we have to be aware of COVID. But I was still seeing my clients that I had. Then we started getting calls saying that family members are worried that we'll be bringing COVID into the home. So they wanted to cancel visits. So we were getting a lot of constellations and then electric surgeries was shut down and that meant a huge drop in clients as well. Then we started seeing a spike in clients in mid April when the hospitals didn't want to discharge patients to the nursing homes, they were discharging them directly to home. So the majority of our clientele was COVID positive patients. Speaker 1 (02:36): And now as the therapist going in to see these patients, obviously you need proper protection. You need that PPE. So as we know, as all the headlines said, during the beginning of the pandemic, couldn't get PPE. So what do you do? Speaker 2 (02:54): Well, we were fortunate in Maryland that governor Hogan had PPE equipment ready at state health departments for agencies to collect. So they did ration them out. Also one of the agencies that I contract with MedStar hospital provided PPS to all the contractors and employees that were visiting COVID patients in the home. So we had the goggles face shield gowns mask, everything. There would be a specialized bag with vital sign equipment for that patient specifically that would be kept in that house and then taken back and disinfected at the end of the treatment. So we, we were shored through weekly conferences on what to do do South screenings and screening prior to each visit. So for my contractors, I developed a screening tool to ask questions if clients were having symptoms or if any family members in the home are having symptoms. And if they had exposure to anyone where COVID symptoms in the past 14 days, so we'll know what you will, that person as a person on, on the investigation or somebody who's COVID positive. So we had done the correct equipment when we go into the homes. Speaker 1 (04:18): And what does that, what does that look like? And what does that feel like for you as a therapist, knowing that you're going into a home with a patient who's COVID positive? I mean, I feel like that would make me very nervous and very anxious. So what was that like? Speaker 2 (04:36): To be quite honest, I was scared at first I try to avoid it as much as possible. But I got to a point where I needed to start seeing people or, you know, the business would go under. So you're nervous because nobody really knows how the disease will progress, what would happen. So it's a risk that you're taking. I, I probably developed compulsive disorder, making sure everything was like wiped down and clean. Even getting into the car, you know, this is affecting the stairway, the door handles double checking, making sure that they know the phone was wiped down. You know, as soon as you get in the house, after you strip washing from head to toe, making sure that, you know, you don't have anything that could possibly be brought onto the home. Speaker 1 (05:35): Right. And so when you say going back to that screening tool that you say you developed, what was, what was, what was, what did that entail for you for your contractors? Because I think this is something that a learning moment for other people, they can maybe copy your screening tool or get an idea of what they can do for their own businesses. Well, it's Speaker 2 (05:58): One that they we use to make sure that we don't have any symptoms. So checking the temperature every morning before you actually go to see a patient and asking the question, like certain questions, when, when you're scheduling a visit if they're filing in a coughing or sneezing when was the last time they got exposed or if they've been exposed to someone who traveled in the past 14 days or who's had any symptoms in the past 14 days. And so that was basically if they answered, no, then you be like, okay, fine. All you just need to do is wear the mask and the gloves and make sure that the patient that you're seeing wears the mask as well. Speaker 1 (06:41): Yeah. That's the big thing is making sure everybody's wearing a mask. Have you had any problems with people not wanting to wear a mask in their home when you go into treat them? Speaker 2 (06:51): We've had some, but most have been very compliant with, you know, wearing the mask because they realize that they, they, they do need the service. So like some patients who have like CHF or COPT that will have problems breathing while doing the exercises, I would allow them to, you know, take it off briefly, but I will step back six feet away and make sure that, you know, they get their respiration rate on the control. Then they put it back on. We'll do the exercise. Speaker 1 (07:22): Yeah. That makes sense. And are you taking, obviously taking vitals, pull socks and everything else temperature when you're going into the home? Speaker 2 (07:31): Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (07:34): Okay. And I love the compulsive cleaning and wiping down of things. I'm still wiping down. If I go food shopping, I wipe everything down before I bring it into my home. And I realize it's crazy. That's crazy making, but I started doing it back in March and it seems to be working. So I continue to do it. And I'm the only one in my apartment, but I still wipe down all the handles. Speaker 2 (08:02): I would say don't lose sight of it though. Speaker 1 (08:07): I am. And I love that. You're like wiping down the car. I rented two car. I rented a car twice since COVID started. And I like almost used a can of Lysol one time. Like I liked out the whole thing and then I let it air out. And this is like in a garage going to pick it up for a rental place. And then I have like, those Sani wipes, like the real hospital disinfectants. And then I wiped everything down with those. And then I got in the car. Speaker 2 (08:36): Well, I saw it's very difficult to find Lysol here right now. So when you do find it, it's like finding gold. I know, Speaker 1 (08:44): I, I found Lysol wipes. They had Lysol wipes at Walgreens and I was like I said, Lysol wipes. And she was, yes. I was like, Oh my gosh. And then last week I found Clorox wipes, but in New York you can only get one. You can't there's no, Speaker 2 (09:04): Yeah. Care's the same thing. Toilet paper, whites, Lysol owning one per customer. So yeah, Speaker 1 (09:09): One per customer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's yeah, I was a thank God. I, I found one can of Lysol, one can at the supermarket and it was like, there is a light shining down on it and it was like glowing, glowing in the middle of the market. I'm like, Oh but I love, I love that all the screening tools that you're using and I think this is a great example for other people who might be going to P into people's homes who may be COVID positive. And I also think it's refreshing for you to say, yeah, I was nervous. Speaker 2 (09:47): I'm not going, gonna lie. You know, you still get nervous because you never know, like someone could be positive. And you're going in there, but you always want to be cautious because you're like, Oh my God, I hope I didn't like allow this to be touched or you forgot to wipe this and stuff too. So Speaker 1 (10:07): How much time are you spending in the home? Because there is that sort of time factor to it as well, exposure time. Right. Speaker 2 (10:16): It depends on the severity of the condition. But anywhere from like 30 minutes to like 45 minutes. Speaker 1 (10:25): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know gone, gone are the days of, you know, spending that extra time and doing all this extra, extra work there, because if they're COVID positive, then I would assume that the longer you're in an exposed area, even though you're fully covered in PPE, I guess it raises your Speaker 2 (10:48): Well. Yeah. And, and the, in the summer, I would say, you know, depending on the amount of work that you had to do, like if you had to do like bed mobility and transfers with the patient, you'd be sweating under that gong. So you really want to want to be in there like a full hour anyway. But they were advising to spend, you know, minimum 30 minutes and to reduce the risk of you contracting it as well, too. Speaker 1 (11:17): Makes sense. So, all right. Speaker 2 (11:20): Decondition so they really can't tolerate a full hour. Speaker 1 (11:23): Right? Of course, of course. Yeah. That makes, that makes good sense. So now we've talked about obtaining the proper PPE. What other, what other pivots, I guess, is the best way to talk about it? Did you feel you had to do as the business owner? What things maybe, are you doing differently now than before? Speaker 2 (11:49): Well, as I said, I had to start seeing most of the cases to make sure that people were still being seen and like using telehealth. We started doing that. So eventually, well sky came on board to offer telehealth visits. So we were able to document telehealth visits as well. And people are responsive to those which worked out pretty well. So with some cases we'll do a one visit in the home and then do the follow-up visit telehealth. So one visit being in a home one weekend, one telehealth, if it was a twice a week patient. So that would also reduce the risk of exposure. Speaker 1 (12:40): Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Now let's talk about keeping the business afloat, right? So yes, we're seeing patients. Yes. We're helping people, but we were also running a business. We got people to pay, we got people on payroll, you gotta pay yourself, you got to keep the business afloat to help all of these patients. So what was the most challenging part of this as from the eye of the business owner? Not the clinician. Speaker 2 (13:07): Well, you, you get fearful that you may not have enough patients to see, to cover previous expenses. So that was one of the reasons I did apply for the PPP loan. And as I mentioned to you before I was successful in acquiring that probably like around July and that, you know, cover like eight weeks of payroll, if that but it was strictly dedicated to payroll, nothing else. So everything else I had to do was to cover the bills and stuff, because that was just for payroll. Some of the agencies that we contracted for were having difficulty maintaining reimbursing. So that became a challenge as well, too. So what does that mean? Exactly. so when we contract with agencies, they're supposed to be paying us for this, the rehab services that we provide. Some of them were late with their payments as well, but I still had to pay my contractors on time. Speaker 1 (14:19): Got it. Okay. Got it. Oh, that's a pickle. Speaker 2 (14:22): Yeah, that's the thing. So that meant like sometimes some, you know, weeks of payroll, I would have to probably go over the lesson and making sure that the contractors were paid. Speaker 1 (14:37): And how about having a therapist? Furloughs? Did you have any of that? Did you know, were there any people, like maybe therapists in your area who were furloughed from their jobs and coming to you, like, Hey, do you have anything for me? Can you help? What was that situation? Speaker 2 (14:54): Yes. So I started getting free pretty among the calls about having to pick up to do work because they were followed or laid off. We currently have one contractor was working for ATI full-time that got followed. Now she's doing the home health full-time right now as a contractor we have some that are still doing it PRN, even though they went back to like their full-time jobs. But yes, we had people looking for cases to see, just to supplement the the income. Then we had a reverse situation where some people more comfortable getting the unemployment check than seeing patients at all. So, so that you had different scenarios, but it wasn't that we were in need of therapists during that time because people were willing to work. Speaker 1 (16:00): Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. And from the, I guess from your perspective being owner and clinician, so you're seeing patients you're running a business where there any sort of positive surprises that came out of this time for you, something that, that maybe made you think, Hmm. Maybe I'm going to do things a little differently moving forward? Speaker 2 (16:30): Yes. incorporating more telehealth visits. Definitely one of them and using the screening to there it helps in a lot of situations. So it makes you aware of what you might possibly be going into when you're going into the home. And I am realizing that there is one of the biggest things for therapeutic outcome is having a good relationship with your patients. So since most people aren't locked down, a lot of the patients that we do see they live by themselves, or they may just have one or two people in the home and they may possibly be working. So when going into the home, you're probably the only person that they're getting to talk to most days. So you, I saw the need to improve on soft skills and being approachable with your patients. So that was definitely a, a big thing for me. Speaker 1 (17:46): And how is that manifesting itself now? So now, you know, you figure we're what April, may, June, July, August, September, October, November, December eight, nine months in, so kind of having that realization of like, boy, this is this, I may be the only person this person speaks to today, all week, perhaps. I mean, that's can be a little, that can be a big responsibility. So how do you, how do you deal with that now that you're, you know, 10 months into this pandemic and yeah. How do, how do you feel about that now? Speaker 2 (18:29): Well, I still feel like some sort of contact needs to be maintained. So even though some patients may have been discharged they would contact the physician via a telehealth visit and asked to, you know, can you see it again? But you still maintain contact, make sure that, you know, you dropped a line and say, Hey, just following up to see if you're okay. That sort of stuff. So they, they will remember and they'll keep coming. Speaker 1 (18:58): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. It is such a responsibility, especially for those older patients who are, who are alone most of the time. I mean, it is it's, you know, we hear more and more about the mental health effects that COVID has had on a lot of people. So and I don't think that we're immune to those effects either. I mean, how, how do you deal with the stress of, because there's gotta be an underlying stress with all of this, right. So what do you do, how do you deal with that stress? Speaker 2 (19:38): Well, one was warmer. I would try to at least take the weekends off to go do something or those and like being around people where you can, you know, laugh and, you know, watch movies, you know, goof up, you know, I have to think about work, those things help. Speaker 1 (19:59): Yeah. Just finding those outlets that you can turn it off a little bit. And I love taking the weekends off every once in a while. I have to do that. I have to remember to do that. And I'm so jealous that you're just, you just came off of a nice little vacay as well. Speaker 2 (20:19): Well it was needed. I probably won't be taking one on till probably sometime next year, so yeah. But it was, it was definitely needed. Speaker 1 (20:32): Yeah. I think I'm going to, I think I'm going to do that too. All right. So anything else, any other advice that you may have for those working in home health when it comes to going to see those during these COVID times, whether the patient has, has had, has, or has had COVID what advice would you give to our fellow home health? Pts? Speaker 2 (21:00): Well, I know I've been hearing quite a lot of PT saying that they didn't want to treat COVID patients and they should not be subjected to treating COVID patients, but as we get more awareness of what the diseases and we take the necessary precautions, I think we will be okay. Cause everyone deserves to get quality care. And I know some people will say this person probably got COVID because they were being reckless and stuff. I mean, you can slip up, be as cautious as possible and still step up and get COVID. That doesn't mean you should be denying someone to receive that treatment just to make sure that you're protected when you do go in. Because we're gonna see a huge wave of COVID cases coming in the next few months and with elective surgeries being stopped and everything like that, that's going to be our only client population and to prevent the fools and the layoffs from happening again, I would just advise them, you know, do the screenings, make sure you get your PP and we'll see the patients. It's it's not as bad as, you know, they make it seem. Speaker 1 (22:16): Yeah. Excellent advice. Excellent advice. And now we're going to really switch gears here. Okay. So this is going to be like like a, a three 60 turnaround, but before we went, before we went on the air, Monique and I were talking about just some things that, that you wanted to talk about and recent happenings in the PT world, and you brought up sort of a list of influential PTs that was compiled by our lovely friend Ellie summers. So go ahead and talk to me about why that list was meaningful to you and why you kind of wanted to talk about it. Speaker 2 (23:03): Well, you know, for the past few years I've been noticing like people send us stuff to vote for like top influencers and, and physical therapy and stuff. Do you tend to see the same names like yesteryear? But you've never seen one that just strictly focuses on a woman in physical therapy. And I see a lot of women doing great things in the physical therapy world, but because they do not have as many followers on like Twitter or Instagram, they don't get the recognition that they deserve. For example, Dr. Lisa van who's I think she's doing incredible, incredible work with the Ujima Institute. I actually consider her a mentor of mine. She, she calms me down when I try to get fired. What's it and stuff, Speaker 1 (24:03): Not you. I don't believe it. Speaker 2 (24:06): So I appreciate her for that. So for Ellie to actually construct this list and, you know, I've, I've been observing her, her tweets on her posts for a while, and I see that she questions. Why is it that, you know, women do not get the recognition in a profession that is supposed to be female dominated. So for her to do the side, you know, it was, it was really thoughtful and needed. Speaker 1 (24:40): Yeah. Yeah. And you know, her shirt talk that she gave at the women in PT summit couple of years ago, I think it was the second year we did, it was so powerful. Like everybody was crying like in tears, she's crying, everyone else is crying. And that was the year Sharon Dunn was our keynote speaker. She got everybody crying. It was like everybody was crying the whole time, but crying in like in, in not, not in a sad way, but crying in a way because the stories were so powerful and really hit home and we just wanted to lift her up and support her. But yeah, and you know, the thing that I love the most about Ellie's list is she put herself on it. Yes. How many times have you made a list and put yourself on it? I can answer me. Never, never, never in a million years, have I made a list of like influential people to put myself on it? Never know. So I saw that and I was like, good for you. Good for you. Speaker 2 (25:44): Because you know, sometimes you, you and, and doing and doing stuff, you, you have to be kind to yourself first, love yourself first. And, and her doing that, I, I believe she's demonstrating that that is something that's that needs to be done. A lot of us, we don't give ourselves enough praise for the stuff that we do. Speaker 1 (26:05): Absolutely. Absolutely. It's sort of, it's a nice lead by example moment from her. So I really appreciated that list and, and yes, Dr. Vanhoose is like a queen. She's amazing. And every time, every time I hear her speak or, or I get the chance to talk with her through the Ujima Institute to me, it's amazing how someone can have the calm that she has and the power she has at the same time. Right. I mean, I don't have that. I don't, I even know how to do that, but she just, like, she's just gets it, you know? I don't know if that's a gift. It's a gift. Yeah, totally, totally. Okay. So as we wrap things up here, I'm going to ask you the one question that I ask everyone, and that is knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to your younger self you're? You're that wide-eyed fresh face PT, just out of PT school. Speaker 2 (27:16): You can't save everybody. You can't save everybody nice. When you, when you just graduate as a therapist, you think you can save everyone a change, a wall. It takes time. Speaker 1 (27:33): Yeah. Oh, excellent answer. I don't think I've heard that one yet, but I think, I think it's true that having, and it's not, that's not a defeatist. That's not a defeatist thinking at all. Yeah. Speaker 2 (27:54): I think this year have thing come to more deaths as a therapist with patients than I have probably in the 12 years that I've been practicing. I'm sorry. Yeah, because you know, you do patients that you get attached to, you know, you have this person passed away and stuff like that. So it's good while it lasts, but to protect yourself mentally and emotionally, you just realize that you can save everybody. Yeah. I think this fund DEMEC is teaching us that too. Speaker 1 (28:35): Yeah. A hundred percent. Thank you for that. And now money, where can people find you website? Social media handles Speaker 2 (28:47): Social media handles are the same on Twitter and Instagram at physio for U F Y, Z I O. Number for you Facebook slash physio for you as well. And www physio for you.org is the website Speaker 1 (29:01): Awesome. Very easy. And just so everyone knows, I'll have links to all of those in the show notes under this episode at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. So if you want to learn more about Monique, about her business I suggest you follow her on Instagram and Twitter, cause there's always great conversations and posts going on there initiated by Monique on anything from home health to DEI, to words of wisdom. So definitely give her a follow. So Monique, thank you so much for coming on. Let's see. Last time was a really long time. I can't believe it, it seems like 10 years ago, but I think it was really like three, three years ago. I think it was DSM like three years ago though. It seems like forever ago. So thank you for coming on again. I really appreciate it. Speaker 2 (29:56): You're welcome. And thank you for having me. Okay. Absolutely. And everyone needs to be safe. Okay. Yeah. Speaker 1 (30:01): Yes, you too. And everyone else, thank you so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.