Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Heather Prinz (lives in Fayetteville Arkansas, Speech Pathologist, Sexual Assault Survivor: Dr. Broadbent OBGYN lawsuit) bravely joins us to share her story. Heather talks about her sexual assault under the guise of medical care, discovering she was one of hundreds of other victims, and her journey through trauma and healing. Heather talks about how she felt at the time of the assault, her inability to accept what had happened, how the assault negatively impacted her life over the following 15 years, and her road (with the help of great therapy) to find healing. Heather also talks about her decision to come out publicly after 2 years as an anonymous 'Jane Doe' in the ongoing civil lawsuit against Dr. Broadbent and the community of support this group of survivors developed throughout their attempts to prevent this from happening to others. If you are a victim of sexual abuse or want better tools to help others, please listen to Heather’s podcast. Thank you, Heather, for being on the podcast and your courage to share your story—which will help so many. Links: @thatsnothealthcare - survivors' advocacy Instagram @heather.prinz - individual Instagram

My friend David Smurthwaite (married father of 4, gender expansive, active Latter-day Saints) joins us to share ideas on ministering to anyone struggling with the updated Church transgender policies. David starts with a brief recap of his own story (including talking to his Bishop at age 11 and opening up to his wife Marisa about 8 years ago). David then talks about the new policies—and what we can do to bear, mourn, and comfort each other given these difficult circumstances. David then answers questions (Resources/support groups, Should I come out?, Honoring personal revelation, etc). If you want to gain insight into someone (or yourself) experiencing a gender journey, please listen to David’s story and perspective. He offers powerful insights thanks to a deep understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and a long view of being on the road to discovering divine identity. Thank you, David, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. Thank you for all your contributions to our community. You give me hope and better tools to understand, love and support my transgender/non-binary friends. Links: David’s e-mail: dave.smurthwaite@gmail.com David’s Instagram: @davidsmurthwaite_writer David’s Instagram post on handbook changes: www.instagram.com/p/C_R83ooxkNE/ Church’s Transgender Guiding Principles PDF: assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/1d/76/1d76991533df11efbaeeeeeeac1ed7e66fbf94a7/general_handbook_guiding_principles_for_local_leaders.pdf Episode 254: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-254-david-smurthwaite-married-father-of-4-former-bishop-gender-dysphoria Life and Love Support Groups: www.liftandlove.org/meeting Monica Phillps on Facebook: www.facebook.com/monica.phillips.3597

My friend Dr. Kristine Coons (active Latter-day Saint, Internal Medicine Physician, came out to her wife in 2014, was on episode 699) joins us to share her journey/insights. Kristine brings a unique and needed perspective with her medical expertise in understanding gender dysphoria and the nuance of defining gender/biological sex—along with her own experience being transgender. Kristine also talks about how the new transgender policies negatively impact her (and many other transgender Latter-day Saints) causing her to feel demeaned and a second-class citizen—something Kristine doesn’t feel in the other circles where Kristine serves. If you are transgender—of are looking for insights to better support/mourn with our transgender friends—our hope is Kristine’s story will help you. Thank you, Kristine, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Links: Kristine’s PowerPoint: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kg25yhqw5e0gqh7zf95bd/Listen-Learn-and-Love-Podcast-9-19-2024-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlkey=z7ekmdp759yfwot2ui35h199f&dl=0 Kristine’s “Variations of Sexual Development Doc”: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/p1m6f6tby85xdqx7nrdbc/Variations-of-Sexual-Development-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlkey=nnqsadgn3fl5fefiqj57wus29&dl=0 Kristine’s “History of Biological Sex Definitions”: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1rbi4brjroeo3qejhwrny/History-of-Biologic-Sex-Definitions-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlkey=ritt2zucgp3ek7uwwl458ckq9&dl=0 Church’s Transgender Guiding Principles PDF: assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/1d/76/1d76991533df11efbaeeeeeeac1ed7e66fbf94a7/general_handbook_guiding_principles_for_local_leaders.pdf Kristine’s prior podcast (699): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-699-kristine-coons-transgender-and-her-wife/id1347971725?i=1000628774947

Guest Host: Tonya Miller Exponent II has played an essential role in creating a shared, safe space for women and gender minorities connected to the Church to explore and express the impacts of "isms" in Church culture. It began in the Boston area as a quarterly newspaper in 1974 by friends who had met and worked on projects together in the Relief Society, and today it continues to provide that space, both physically and digitally. For example, when Exponent II was first created, the idea that someone might adhere to gospel principles and Church policies AND feminism was incredibly radical. Katie and Heather have undertaken a Herculean task in creating this commemoration of Exponent II's founding in their new book, Fifty Years of Exponent II, that includes the history of the organization and an anthology of selected works from the quarterly publication and blog. Heather and Katie describe the rich content of this compilation and share examples from their book that shed light on some of the challenges inherent in the task. They also talk about the ongoing need for Latter-Day Saints have to safe community both within and outside of the Church, noting the importance of not just feminism, but the impacts that ableism, ageism, racism, anti-queer sentiment, and ethnocentricity can have on members and their loved ones. I am grateful to Katie and Heather for their dedication to such a great cause and for their willingness to share their stories with us on this podcast. As a side note, I’m focusing only on sharing stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at tonya@cottonwood.care). Links: Fifty Years of Exponent II: www.amazon.com/Fifty-Years-Exponent-Katie-Ludlow/dp/1560854774 Exponent II: https://exponentii.org/ Exponent II Magazine on Instagram: @exponentII_mag Exponent II Blog on Instagram: @exponentii_blog Katie Rich on Instagram: @KatieLudlowRich

**This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Z Blanchard, (lived in Utah, Costa Rica, San Diego and Ecuador; Argentina RM; attending UVU in Utah; age 21) joins us to share his story as a bisexual member of the Church of Jesus Christ out of his heartfelt desire to give hope to others. Z (youngest of four siblings, with three older sisters) begins by giving insights into what it was like to grow up with the cognitive dissonance of being attracted to men while remaining very active in the church of Jesus Christ. While he loved (and continues to love) the gospel, he gives insights into struggles such as the constant pressure to come out to his loved ones, internalized homophobia, and self-hate, as he threw himself into efforts to be free from these stressors. Z talks about trying to make it work with a girl and feeling totally broken as the reality of his sexual orientation started to kick-in. This confusion, along with the outset of the global pandemic, led him to a place of hopelessness with no light at the end of the tunnel. He shares about the things that helped him stay alive both physically and spiritually during these difficult years (including great family experiences) where church/the proclamation on the family/some conference talks became nearly unbearable. He also talks about hitting an extremely low point which led him to seek therapy from Jill Freestone, a close friend and life coach, who gave Z tools and insights to find hope. One of these insights was into the Divine Nature and character of Heavenly Mother, a doctrine that caused him to observe, “if there is a more expansive understanding of God, then maybe there is a more expansive understanding of me”. Z talks about why he didn’t leave the church, but rather decided to serve a mission after coming out because of his testimony of loving Heavenly Parents and Jesus Christ’s power to heal. He shares some painful and beautiful experiences while serving in Argentina (including coming out to a few companions—with one companion giving him a powerful affirming Christmas gift—a story you won’t want to miss). Z is one of the most spiritually, emotionally, and intellectually mature persons I’ve met. He understands the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how that gives hope to others. Z’s story is more than the story of a queer Latter-Day Saint, it is a story of human resilience and the influence God can and will have on our lives. If you are queer or straight, his story will help you find more peace and hope in your life. Please listen and share this podcast with others, it could be exactly what another person is needing right now. Thank you, Z, for being on the podcast. The world is a better place with you in it. You have a great life ahead of you full of giving hope to others. Links: Z’s YouTube coming out video (English): https://youtu.be/xr87N0AvbHc?si=cxRqkiCxpQ-6vETz Z’s YouTube coming out video (Spanish): https://youtu.be/LrJI5CV1Ato?si=ya_Q6EztmB0Ecoub Z’s Instagram: @tegaaaaaan Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

This episode is dedicated to the loving memory of JeNeal Nichol Miller, who passed away on Pioneer Day this year. She inspired everyone she knew to be nonjudgmental and Christlike. She was a true ally and is deeply missed. **This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Tonya Baker Miller (married mother of four, active LDS, Founder/Clinical Director of Cottonwood Counseling and Coaching) joins us to talk about supporting transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saints. Tonya has more than ten years of experience as a therapist working with transgender individuals, and also has transgender friends and family members about whom she cares deeply. Tonya talks about gospel principles, provides clinical perspectives, and offers ideas to help us better understand and support our transgender friends. Tonya addresses questions such as: “Is this a phase?”, “Is being transgender a disorder?”, “Is there a ‘cause,’ or do some people just ‘come with this?’”, and “What is intersectionality? And why are there so many transgender people also on the autism spectrum?” Tonya also talks about how complex transgenderism is. For example, the medical/clinical angle tends to utilize the disease model to characterize many challenges that transgender individuals encounter. Socially, there is so much judgment (political, religious, etc.) around transgenderism that we risk getting lost in abstraction and losing focus on ways we can show love and help each individual meet their day-to-day needs. She describes ways that we can support our transgender friends as they navigate this incredibly nuanced and misunderstood space. I am so grateful for Tonya and her work to support transgender Latter-day Saints and their families. I learn so much from her and grateful to have her on the podcast. I hope that you listen to this episode and gain more understanding/vocabulary/tools to better love/support our transgender/non-binary friends. On a personal note, I am grateful for Tonya for being a guest host of this podcast and writing a chapter in my third book about healing from Church-generated trauma (see show notes). You are awesome Tonya! Links: JeNeal Miller’s Obituary: www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/name/jeneal-miller-obituary?id=55698595 Tonya’s clinical practice: www.cottonwood.care Tonya’s Chapter from my third book, Building The Good Ship Zion (Chapter 3: Ministering to Those With Church-Generated Trauma): www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9fvz6iy4k75nwp5tpupi9/Chapter-3-Ministering-to-Those-with-Church-Generated-Pain-or-Trauma.pdf?rlkey=zahycun2wv27opaq7l7s5y8qf&dl=0 Tonya’s earlier episode on this podcast (# 501) on healing from Church-generated trauma: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-501-tonya-baker-miller-healing-from-church-trauma-strong-lds-families “Tonya’s Story,” (about supporting her son, Andy, during the time he was coming out as gay), from Gospel Library: JeNeal Miller’s Obituary: www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/name/jeneal-miller-obituary?id=55698595 Tonya’s clinical practice: www.cottonwood.care Tonya’s Chapter from my third book, Building The Good Ship Zion (Chapter 3: Ministering to Those With Church-Generated Trauma): www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9fvz6iy4k75nwp5tpupi9/Chapter-3-Ministering-to-Those-with-Church-Generated-Pain-or-Trauma.pdf?rlkey=zahycun2wv27opaq7l7s5y8qf&dl=0 Tonya’s earlier episode on this podcast (# 501) on healing from Church-generated trauma: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-501-tonya-baker-miller-healing-from-church/id1347971725?i=1000550041715 “Tonya’s Story,” (about supporting her son, Andy, during the time he was coming out as gay), from Gospel Library: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/videos/tonyas-story Instagram: @tbird1490 Facebook: facebook.com/profile.php?id=100011381891072

**This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Caysen Crum (New Hampshire RM, Southern Utah University Grad, HXP Guide, Further Physician, Minersville Utah) joins us to share his story of doing everything he could to be “Mr. perfect and straight” (including serving a perfectly obedient mission, dating women, excelling at sports/academics) and how that eventually led to depression and suicidal ideation. Caysen talks of his love for everyone else—but how he had no love for himself. Caysen talks about hitting rock bottom with his decision to end his life and how a grandmother changed that decision. Caysen then talks about therapy (super helpful to end his internalized homophobia) and then powerful spiritual experiences while in Africa on an HXP trip including deep confirmation that God made Caysen gay—and that is a good thing allowing Caysen life mission of blessing others to be possible. Caysen also talks about how shame has no place in our lives and how it is eliminated “by the Atonement of Jesus Christ” and good therapy. Cayson talks about helpful people along the way (his YSA Bishop, therapist, camp counselor and others). It is hard to put into words how powerful Caysen’s story is—how he teaches of loving Heavenly Parents and our role of the Savior—and his journey to accept being gay. I was brought to tears a few times by the spiritual maturity, doctrinal insights. and goodness of Caysen. Our world and church are better off with people like Caysen part of it. If you are figuring out your sexual orientation/gender identity, need more Jesus/hope in your life, or want to better support queer Latter-day Saints, please listen to Caysen’s powerful story. You are a good man, Caysen. Thank you for being on the podcast. Links: Caysen’s Lift and Love story on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/C_QlDVIPkdJ/?igsh=MXJ3cTVjdjJvdnlkNQ%3D%3D Cayson’s IG: @caysencrum Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

My friend Ben Bernards (lives in Sacramento, RM, current Bishopric member, author, podcaster, EFY speaker, early 40s) joins us to share their family story. This story started with three children — a daughter and then two sons — but now continues with 3 daughters, as both of their sons are transgender. Ben talks about how he and his wife Megan are navigating this road to support their transgender and cisgender children, with powerful insights for anyone looking to support someone who is transgender Ben shares deeply spiritual experiences and powerful insights when each daughter came out at different stages in their lives, and the surprising feelings of calm and peace they felt each time. Ben talks about their goal to preserve the family relationships and walk with their transgender daughters—and also deeply spiritual experiences on how much our Heavenly Parents love Ben’s daughters—and how everyone is created in their image. Ben talks about how being “safe person” for them gave them courage to come out, when they were scared to do so. Ben talks about open ended questions like “how long have you felt this way” and “how best can I support you” to keep the conversation going. Ben also talks about grief/loss of changing family expectations—including the lives he once imagined as a father of two sons. Ben talks about the need for community of other LDS parents with transgender children. Ben continues with how the recent handbook changes (Aug 2024) negatively impact transgender Latter-day Saints and how the “border drawn in a new location and how his transgender daughters are now outside”. My heart aches as I see the painful impact of these handbook changes on LDS families with transgender members. Thank you, Ben (and your whole family), for sharing your story. It is a beautiful family love story. Thank you for giving all insights on how to better understand, see, and support our transgender/non-binary friends. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Dr Julia Bernards Episode 664: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-664-dr-julia-bernards-byu-dissertation-on-transgender/id1347971725?i=1000619444998 Gallup Poll on LGBTQ+ identification by generation: https://news.gallup.com/poll/611864/lgbtq-identification.aspx Poll at BYU finding 13% of population were queer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_LGBT_history#cite_note-Survey-3

Michelle and Steve Shaw are the parents of four children, three of whom have been diagnosed with neurological disabilities, ranging from ADHD to anomalies in the brain. They are active members of the Church and live in the Seattle area; Michelle serves in her Stake Primary Presidency and Steve serves on the Stake High Council. Michelle is also a special education teacher, and teacher of the blind and visually impaired, so she brings additional perspective to the issues that members with disabilities face as they try to integrate with Church culture. I am grateful to Michelle and Steve, and vicariously to their children, for having the courage to start having conversations about ways that we can make sure that each member of the Church, regardless of their varying capacities, feels safe and seen in the Church setting. Michelle and Steve talk about starting their family and having all of the hopes that many of us have at that stage of life. They describe having certain assumptions about the role that the Church would play in the lives of their children; they anticipated their kids enjoying primary and youth programs, and having a sense of safety and belonging that a ward family might provide. They also talk about their growing disappointment, as they have watched their children struggle in many of the settings and programs that the Church provides for children and youth. Michelle and Steve know that other members of the Church have good intentions, and that no one intends harm towards their children; they also know the heartache that accompanies watching their kids feel misunderstood, or “othered” by well-meaning members. They describe what it is like for them to grapple with the paradox of belonging to our family-centered Church, while also knowing that their family cannot always fully participate due to limitations in the flexibility of Church culture and assumptions others make about their kids. Michelle and Steve describe ways that they believe Church culture can improve so that no one feels “othered” and so that all of us can enjoy worshipping together. As a side note, I’m focusing only on sharing stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at tonya@cottonwood.care).

My friend Rylee Burningham (he/they) joins us to share their story. Rylee (married father of 7, mid-40’s. RM, believing/active LDS, IT professional) talks about their feelings of gender dysphoria from their earliest memories. Rylee (who is doing the podcast to give others hope walking this road) talks about their journey of self-discovery, navigating faith and identity, lessons learned and hopes for the future. Rylee talks about things they are doing within the new transgender handbook policies to stay temple-worthy and to fully participate in the Church. At the same time, Rylee talks about the sacrifice to make this possible and also how the handbook can cause transgender members to feel like second class citizens. Rylee and I talk about how gender dysphoria is a recognized/established health issue with guidelines to feel better—and how staying fully active in the church takes some of those guidelines off the table. Rylee also talks about how his gender dysphoria is the bottom of the iceberg—but was presenting with depression and anxiety (top of the iceberg stuff that is easier to see) and how he needed to recognize/address gender dysphoria to improve his mental health. Rylee talks about his work to take shame out of his life for never fitting into the cultural expectations for a man—and his firm testimony that he is created as intended by our Heavenly Parents and this “is a beautiful part of who I am” that doesn’t need fixing in the resurrection. If you have feelings of gender dysphoria (or looking to better support transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saint), please listen to Rylee and their deeply insightful and spiritual journey. Thank you, Rylee, for your courage to be on the podcast. I was so moved listening to your story. You are so brave. We need good people like you in our Church and society. You help us to expand the boarders of Zion so more feel welcome, needed, and belonging. Links: Rylee’s email: rylee.burn@icloud.com Instagram: @transformingzion Website: transformzion.org