Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

Richard Ostler

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Feb 13, 2025 • 1h 36min

Episode 811: Jake and Joe Sharp, Lost Brother Sam to Suicide, Solving Porn Use, Remove Shame

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friends Jake and Joe Sharp (identical twins, age 24, from Mesa Arizona, RMs) join us to talk about their life work to help others choose to stay, turn to positive coping behaviors, finding hope and the role of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal from pain. Jake and Joe start with the story of losing their younger brother Sam to suicide at age 16 while they were on their missions. They talk about the goodness of Sam—as well as the difficult mental health challenges (OCD, toxic perfection, etc) that Sam faced, and all their family was doing to help him find hope. They talk about the heartbreaking pain, anger, and guilt they faced—and how Christ and therapy has helped them heal. They talk about unhealthy coping behaviors to deal with the pain (pornography use and overeating) and how they learned better tools/behaviors helping to be in a better place. They talk about shame and how that is Satan’s greatest tool to separate us from the love of our Heavenly Parents and the Savior—and how shame has no place in the gospel of Jesus Christ. They talk about the importance of vulnerability, therapy, fitness, doing a “forgive fast” for ourselves, we are not broken, and our Savior to give hope/peace. If you are suicidal, Jake and Joe’s story will help you. We all invite you to stay. If you are working through grief of losing someone to suicide, their story will help you. If you are working to solve porn use (or better tools to help others), their story will help you. Thank you, Jake and Joe, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. Thank you for your courage to talk about these subjects to give others hope. You are good men doing many hope/healing in our community. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Jake and Joe’s Instagram and TikTok: @jdoufit Their Mom’s Podcast (Pam Sharp): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fight-hard-love-much/id1615231547
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Feb 7, 2025 • 1h 24min

Episode 810: Dr Matthew Harris, New Book Called “Second-Class Saints”

My friend Dr. Matthew L Harris (Historian, Colorado State University) joins us to talk about his powerful new book called “Second-Class Saints: Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality”— a fifteen-year labor of love. In Matt’s book (which was a powerful read for me), he draws on never-before-seen private papers of LDS apostles and church presidents—including Spencer W. Kimball to help us understand the complexity of ending the ban—something that President Kimball considered long before becoming Church President. Matt talks about why the ban started, who started it, how it became official doctrine for decades, and what shifted to cause church leaders to end the ban. Matt also talks about why ending the ban didn’t end racist teachings about black people—how all those prior teachings have now been refuted—but still might exists in our culture. Matt discusses key questions like was the ban doctrine or policy? Was it “just not time yet to end the ban”? And other important questions. Matt also talks about the importance of proximity by senior church leaders to those hurt by the ban and how those stories/experience changed hearts and were key to considering lifting it. Matt also shares insights on possible parallels to the priesthood ban and the experience of LGB Latter-day Saints who may also feel like “second-class saints”. I learned so much from Matt’s book and loved having him on the podcast. I encourage everyone to read his book and then consider what each of us can do to better support those of the margins. Links: Matt’s book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/019769571X Matt’s webpage: https://matthewlharris.org/
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Feb 2, 2025 • 1h 40min

Episode 809: Richard Hanks, New Book About His Father Elder Marion D. Hanks

My friend Richard Hanks (mid 60s, retired business executive, active Latter-day Saint/former Mission President) joins us to talk about his biography of his father Elder Marion D. Hanks (beloved general authority—called at age 31—who lived from 1921-2011) in his book called “To Be a Friend of Christ: The Life of Marion D. Hanks.” Richard talks about his father’s unique approach to the gospel and his work—focused on following Christ—advocating for: increasing the church's humanitarian efforts, Christian service by full-time missionaries, acceptance of those on the fringes, the creation of singles wards, combining High Priests and Elders quorums, adapting garments to local climates, civil marriage before sealings, a kinder and more merciful approach to repentance, and a strong/vocal desire to end the priesthood ban—all while being deeply committed to the Church and supportive of its leaders. Richard talks about key areas of his father’s ministry including “aggressive Christianity versus aggressive proselytizing”; “souls versus statistics ”; and “this is the only true church/others are wrong" versus "The more excellent way.” He further talks about his father’s work to focus the mission of the Church on Christ, bring the Christus to Temple Square, teaching faith over dogma and certitudes, and principles to help those with legitimate concerns stay in the Church. I was always aware of and grateful for the ministry of Elder Hanks, but it wasn’t until becoming familiar with Richard’s book about his father, that I realized how unique, progressive, and needed was his ministry in the Church, all he accomplished, and the many lives he blessed being laser focused on helping people "Come unto Christ." If you are looking for hope for the future of the Church and how your contributions are needed, I encourage you to read Richard’s book. Thank you, Richard, for making this book possible, and for your work to create Zion. Links: Richard’s book at Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1560854723 Contacting Richard: RichDHanks@gmail.com
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Jan 27, 2025 • 58min

Episode 808: Hailey Kynaston, Age 22, BYU-I, RM, SSA, Disciple of Christ

My friend Hailey Kynaston (Anaheim California RM, BYU-I marriage and family studies major, grew up in Davis County) bravely joins us to share her story. Hailey starts with her journey coming to terms with her sexual orientation during her high school years, dating girls secretly, as well as dating boys. Hailey talks about her journey to attend her YSA ward, working to gain a testimony and ultimately serving a successful mission. Hailey talks about the transformative experiences on her mission that helped her develop a deeper relationship with Christ, find more hope/peace, and clarity about her future—including keeping her covenants and hopes to marry a man in the temple. Hailey shares her post-mission coming out post (super powerful—with a focus on her primary identity as a daughter of loving Heavenly Parents—insights about our Savior—and hopes for her future). Hailey talks about the support she feels at North Star and its upcoming conference (Feb 27 – March 1st) and the YSA group she is leading. We both invite you to consider attending North Star this year (see show notes for more information). Thank you, Hailey, for being on the podcast and your courage to share your story. You are brave and courageous—and you being open helps so many. Links: Hailey’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/hailey.kynaston.33 Hailey’s Instagram: @hailey_kyn Hailey’s e-mail: haileykyn22@gmail.com North Star Conference: northstarconference.org
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Jan 23, 2025 • 55min

Episode 807: Candice Clark, LDS Mother of Queer Kids, “No Empty Chairs” Podcast

My friend Candice Clark (mother of 5, lives in Iowa City, Iowa) joins us to share her story of her journey to love, understand, and accept her queer kids—and the blessings of using their preferred pronouns. Candice is open about the sometimes choppy road to using preferred pronouns—but talks about how that brought improved relationships and more love, open communication, and genuine family unity and understanding. She shares ten messages a queer person might hear when we use their pronouns: You know yourself better than I know you. I would rather change the way I speak about you than hurt you repeatedly. Your sense of safety is important to me. Your identity is real and should be acknowledged. I want to teach everyone around me to respect you. Being uncomfortable is fine if I avoid being offensive. I can hear you talking and I am really listening. Being who you truly are is not an inconvenience to me. I would prefer if you kept being honest with me. I am an ally, a friend, and someone you can trust. Candice talks about her journey to encourage extended family to also use preferred pronouns—a journey that has been very difficult at times and required Candice to extend skills of grace, listening, and bridge building. Candice talks about how it is a journey worth undertaking. Candice talks about her podcast “No Empty Chairs: For Moms Whose Kids Don’t Come to Church,” becoming a life coach, and her role in and the purpose of the Facebook group “Bridges: Support for Latter-day Saint Parents of Adult Children”. If you are looking for a real-world story of better supporting the queer people in your life, please listen to Candice’s podcast and connect with her resources. Thank you, Candice, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Your work is so needed in our community! Links: Candice’s web page: candiceclarkcoaching.com/ Candice’s FB Page: www.facebook.com/candiceclarkcoaching Candice’s Podcast: candiceclarkcoaching.com/?page_id=78 Bridges FB Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1139458306236720 FB Group for LDS Parents with LGBTQ children: www.facebook.com/groups/WalkWithYouLDSParentsOfLGBTQ
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Jan 19, 2025 • 1h 26min

Episode 806: Emilie Call and Ashlie Sanders (Sisters), That’s Church Podcast, Event on March 8th

My friends Emilie Call (married mother of 4) and Ashlie Sanders (married mother of 3) join us to talk about their podcast they founded, and co-host called “That’s Church Podcast” which builds bridges of understanding to other faiths (and people of no faith) and to better support people within our own faith (such as LGBTQ folks). They also share their personal stories navigating complicated topics in our faith and how their work has helped them stay in our Church. Emilie and Ashlie talk about the next event at Compass Gallery in Provo, Utah on March 8th(National Women’s Day)—speakers and purpose-an awesome event that I encourage you to attend. Also, Ashlie talks about the IG account (@the_nuanced_mormon) to explore diverse spiritual journeys. If you are looking for two thoughtful voices in our faith community doing much needed bridge-building work, please listen to this episode and connect with their podcast and consider attending their event on March 8th Thank you, Emilie and Ashlie, for being on the podcast. You two give me hope. Links : That’s Church Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thats-church/id1711856369 That’s Church IG account: @thatschurchpodcast A That’s Church Experience - Divine Feminine & Women Empowerment tickets: tinyurl.com/empower2025
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Jan 14, 2025 • 51min

Episode 805: Liberty Hansen, Early Release Missionary, Giving Hope to Others

My friend Liberty Hansen (age 20, lives in Spanish Fork Utah, Richmond Virginia RM) joins us to share her story of returning home from her mission after two months because of a desire to improve our culture to help others walking this road. Liberty talks about how much she loved missionary work—but suffered from panic attacks and feelings of suicide—and feelings of drowning. She talks about difficult experience on her mission where she didn’t feel safe or supported. An exception to that was one of her companions—still a dear friend—and all this companion did to help her. Liberty talks about coming home and the support she received from her family and ward. She talks about how she handled the airport, her first week back in the Ward, her homecoming talk and the good/not helpful comments. Liberty also talks about why she stays in the church—even though she feels so level of being let down by the Church. Liberty talks about a new Instagram account she started (see show notes) where other early release missionaries share their stories. If you are an early release missionary or working to better support someone walking this road, please listed to Liberty’s story and connect with her Instagram. Thank you, Liberty, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are awesome. Links: Liberty’s Instagram: @finding.the.purpose
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Jan 9, 2025 • 1h 28min

Episode 804: Hayden Clark, Solving Porn Use

My friend Hayden Clark (age 30, married, father of one, lives in Mesa Arizona, former Utah Dixie State University football player, Phoenix firefighter and paramedic, stake high councilor), joins us to share his journey to understand and solve his porn use. Hayden talks about his early exposure to porn (age 7) and how this became a coping mechanism to deal with life. Hayden talks about not opening up to his wife about his porn use before their marriage—but finally having the courage to talk about this once married. Once Hayden opened up to his wife about his porn use, that opened the door to do the needed work to solve it. Hayden talks about therapists (including Sara Brewer’s program) which helped him understand his porn use was really a coping mechanism (or “buffer”) to deal with/escape the challenges of life. With that reframing, Hayden talks about the things he did to improve himself to be closer to sobriety. In addition to good therapy, Hayden also talks about the role of The Atonement of Jesus Christ and how reading the Book of Mormon helped him. Hayden also talks about why his wife and him started a podcast, why he is talking about this at church (including his high council talks)—all because of his desire to help others. If you are working to end porn use (or other unwanted coping behaviors like overeating, drugs/alcohol, caffeine, excessive social media use, etc) please listen to Hayden’s story. It will help you. And if you are looking to help others, Hayden’s story will help you better help others. Thank you, Hayden, for your courage to be on the podcast and share your story. Respect. You are helping so many! Links: Hayden and his wife Dylan‘s podcast called: This Is Livin’ : podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-is-livin/id1770163904 Sara Brewer: centerforovercoming.com/ Other Richard Ostler solving porn podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/solving-porn-use Richard Ostler chapter on solving porn: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nrfb3jzluzrj2sp8ihrfo/Chapter-4-Ending-Pornography-Use.-Listen-Learn-and-Love-Improving-Latter-day-Saint-Culture.pdf?rlkey=dqxcrtvxcmu6u3ppkig3kh82p&dl=0
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Jan 4, 2025 • 1h 24min

Episode 803: Clint and Melinda Mueller, LDS Parents of Two Gay Sons

My friends Clint and Melinda Mueller (live in Litchfield Park, Arizona; BYU grads; forensic engineering business owners) join us to share their story of having two gay sons (four sons total, sons #2 and #3 are gay—age 29 and 26 respectively—both returned missionaries). Clint talks about the long road (started in 2016) when their first son came out—and all the changed perspective needed to better support their sons (going from “not on my watch will I have a gay son” to loving/supporting them). Clint talks about deeply spiritual experiences (including talking with other gay people in his life) that helped him do better. Melinda talks about personal revelation including “your job is to love them; my job is to save them.” Clint and Melinda talk about the shock of when their second son came out following his mission—and how they were better equipped to love and support him. Clint also shares what they are doing in their LDS circle to help local leaders/members better support LGBTQ members. If you are an LDS parent new to the road of having a queer child (or be better prepared for this possibility), or a local leader, please listen to the Mueller’s story. It is a powerful story of growth, pain, honest communication, keeping the family circle together, and creating a beautiful family love story. Thank you, Clint and Melinda, for being on the podcast and giving us better tools/gospel insights to support the LGBTQ people in our lives. Links: Clint/Melinda Mueller’s e-mail: muellakites@muellakites.com
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Dec 29, 2024 • 1h 12min

Episode 802: Ben Schilaty, Clare Dalton, Liz Macdonald: “All Out In the Open” Podcast

My friends Dr. Ben Schilaty, Clare Dalton, and Liz Macdonald join us to talk about the rebranding of the powerful podcast “Questions From The Closet” to “All Out in the Open.” They share how the expanded scope includes once-a-month hosts including Iese Wilson focusing on international queer Latter-day Saints, Clare Dalton on how the scriptures provide principles to help queer Latter-day Saints, Liz Macdonald and Michael Soto talking about community building, and Ben Schilaty and Charlie Bird talking about how to be more open with ourselves and others. They also talk about the Gather/All Arizona conference in Mesa (March 29, 2025), the Gatherings monthly scripture curriculum, the annual Gather Conference in Provo (June 26-28, 2025), and a new conference called Belong (a conference for queer youth and youth allies—born out of the successful Gather track at the 2024 conference). If you want to feel hope in the LDS/LGBTQ space, please listen to this episode and (more importantly) listen to “All Out in the Open” podcast. Ben, Clare, and Liz are doing such great work and represent the hundreds of people in this space working to “expand the borders” of Zion where more feel loved, needed, and true belonging. Their principled approach gives us all better ideas on what we can do in our circle of influence to better support queer Latter-day Saints. Thank you, Ben, Clare, Liz for being on the podcast and all your great work! Links: All Out in the Open Podcast: alloutintheopen.org/ Gather curriculum: gather-conference.com/gatherings Gather Arizona March 29, 2025: www.allarizona.org/conferences (registration not live yet) Belong Youth Conference June 26-28, 2025: www.belongyouthconference.org to receive registration info as it becomes available. Follow @belongyouthconf on Instagram. Gather June 26-28, 2025: www.gather-conference.com/ (registration not live yet)

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