Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Lilly MacKenzie (who was on Episode 765) joins us to update listeners on her journey—including her spiritual journey (which includes more about her purpose, her belief in the Church, and her mission to help others). Lilly also talks about how the August 2024 transgender handbooks updates negatively impacted her—and how/why she continues to be a deeply committed and believing Latter-day Saint. She also talks about the support/support groups that help her. And she talks about how her emotional health is so much better since transitioning. Thank you, Lilly, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are helping so many. Links: June 2025 Gather Conference: www.gather-conference.com/ Lilly’s earlier episode (765): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-765-lilly-mackenzie-transgender-latter-day/id1347971725?i=1000661805297

My friend Aiden Kelly (he/him, trans man, age 23, future in theatre) and my friend Annalee Kelly (married mother of 4, RM, active LDS, from Idaho Falls) join us to share their story. Aiden starts and talks about: * Immense pain of gender dysphoria * Writing in his journal—and sharing that journal entry with his mother as a way to come out as a boy * Knowing sharing his pain with others would be key to getting help and making his future possible * How hormone treatment and top surgery ended the pain and have him hope * Parents support * Glad he is alive. Has hope and a future. * Advice to others who are suicidal/have no hope. Annalee then shares about: * The long-term hatred Aiden had for his body (hair pulling, pounding on his chest, etc) * Asking advice from his Bishop (good experience) * Had to put Aiden’s life ahead of my original dreams/hopes * Generally positive ward and family support * Starting Open Arms of Idaho * Pain of the August 2024 transgender handbook policy update * “Aiden is a masterpiece” * Aiden’s Father support Aiden is one of my heroes—a brave, talented, a good man—with a wonderful future. I’m glad you are alive Aiden and thank you for your courage to share your story. You give hope to others. And thank you Annalee for helping us know we can love and support our LGBTQ friends and family—and how that is part of responsibility as Latter-day Saints and followers of Jesus. Thank you for all the work you and your team is doing in the Idaho Falls area to bring more love and understanding. You are all some of my heroes. You are a beautiful family. And your story will help so many. Links: Open Arms of Idaho: openarmsidaho.org/ Open Arms of Idaho Instagram: @openarmsidaho Open Arms of Idaho Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089047401155

My friend Nikki Andreasky (BYU-I grad, lives in AZ, they/them) joins us to share their story including: * Long-term gender dysphoria/chest dysphoria—and prayerful decision to have top surgery * Love of the temple * Learning of the handbook changes (Aug 2024) for transgender members weeks before the surgery leading to feelings of “being stabbed in the gut”, “betrayed” and “really hurt” * Meeting with local leaders * Proceeding with the top surgery—feelings of gender euphoria Pain of not being able to attend the temple and no chance of temple sealing * How North Star gave them a spiritual boost * Why they stay in the Church * Supportive mothers—grandma’s scriptures Nikki is one of my heroes—for their spiritual/emotional maturity and navigating an incredible complex road as a non-binary Latter-day Saint. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode so we can better understand, love and support non-binary/transgender Latter-day Saints. I believe they are needed members of the Body of Christ. Thank you for being on the podcast, Nikki. You are awesome. Links: North Star Voices of Hope: www.northstarsaints.org/voh-nikki-2022 Earlier Listen Learn and Love Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-320-lynsie-andreasky-active-lds-asexual-aromantic-and-gender-queer/sets Nikki’s Tic Tok: www.tiktok.com/@scattering_sunshine?_t=ZT-8w1g82Dlqsl&_r=1 Nikki’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/share/16HB8rwVrQ/?mibextid=wwXIfr

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Jenn Curtis (late 40s, lives in California, experiences same-sex attraction) joins us to share her powerful story out of a desire to help others including: * Sexual assault survivor which led to unhealthy coping behaviors and immense shame * Falsely concluding “God is disappointed in me” * Falsely concluding (at age 17) that death would be a better option * Feeling unlovable and that “no one could love the real me” * Finding more hope—but two subsequent decades of living in a “form of internal hell” * Powerful spiritual experience where God told her she is a “bullfighter” * Honest about sexual orientation with God, herself, and husband * Helpful friends—part of the process to remove shame * As friends loved/accepted her, Jenn considered “I might be lovable—and God may love me too” * My story is a “beautiful love story” * Finding joy * Powerful EFY experience * North Star This is a super-powerful, spiritual, and vulnerable podcast providing principles to help us better understand God’s love, how shame has no place in the Gospel, and how Jesus helps heal us. If you are in a hard spot, please listen to Jenn’s story. It will give you more hope. And if you are looking to better support our SSA/LGBTQ friends, please listen and share Jenn’s podcast. Thank you for being on the podcast, Jenn! You are so brave—you are bullfighter—and your courage is helping so many! Links: youtube.com/@LatterdayWomenWarriors https://www.northstarsaints.org/voh-jenn www.youtube.com/@TheApocrypharules www.northstarsaints.org/voices-of-hope-profiles North Star: www.northstarsaints.org/ Jenn’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007513065761

My friend Sharlee Mullins Glenn (noted author, former adjunct faculty at BYU, committed Latter-day Saint, married mother of 5, founder and former Executive Director of MWEG) joins us to talk about her important and groundbreaking new book, an expansive epic poem full of imagination and possibilities, centering the feminine divine. In the words of Fiona Givens, Sharlee’s epic poem “is an ambitious and beautiful rendering of Latter-day Saint beliefs and yearnings regarding the feminine divine, the ethos of existence, and the centrality of agency, relationships and love.” Some of the ideas Sharlee shared include: 1) Her book is fiction--a blending of theology, science, and imagination 2) It is an offering of imagination, and does not purport to set forth doctrine 3) Imagination is a spiritual gift and reflects God's divine nature 4)The inclusion of the feminine divine was driven by two burning questions: a. Where are the women in the grand, ancient story of our beginnings, and b. What good is a doctrine if we never speak of it or seek greater light and knowledge concerning it? 5) Her hope is that her "offering of imagination" will prompt others to examine the boundaries of their own paradigms and consider new possibilities 6) Heavenly Mother “will be unveiled again” This is a unique and insightful podcast focused on a book (which is a beautiful poem) that is a reimagining of the entire scope of existence, centering the feminine divine and the preeminence of love. I learned so much from Sharlee and encourage our listeners to read her book and share it with others. Links: Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1961471205/ Barnes and Noble: www.barnesandnoble.com/w/1147162041

My friend Sara Sumsion (RM, Age 30, YSA ward leader, getting a master’s degree in marriage and family therapy) joins us to share her unique story. Sara starts with her good father’s decision to leave the Church and her initial judgements about his decision. She then shares her difficult mission experience including spiritual abuse that nearly broke her and led to her considering leaving the Church. Sara talks about finding the grey and her intentional decision to stay in the Church, her reconstructed testimony, and her desire to help others find hope and healing. Sara talks about her road to become a vocal LGBTQ Ally including her Instagram post of her non-binary friend. Sara talks about helping everyone feel welcome in their YSA ward and also practicing boundaries/good communication when interacting with less active members. Sara concludes with her Mother’s Day lesson including a focus on Heavenly Mother and helping all women feel good and welcome (regardless of their current status or feelings regarding motherhood). If you are working to stay in the Church, Sara’s journey may help you. And if you are looking for more insights about how to teach/organize a positive meeting on Mother’s Day, Sara suggestions may help you. And if you are looking to create a safer place in your Ward, Sara’s story may help you. Thank you, Sara, for your work to create Zion. I learned so much from you. You give me hope for the future of our Church and world. I see the example of Jesus reflected in your ministry. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sara.sumsion IG: @sar_assumption/

My dear friends, Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward, (co-founders of the “At Last She Said It Project” which includes their groundbreaking podcast—with over 200 episodes and 2+ million downloads) join us to talk about their new book. Their book (published by Signature Books) invites readers to consider new perspectives, be open to changing our minds, and how growth can be uncomfortable—and how this leads to helping more fellow Latter-day Saints feel valued, welcome and how to have more belonging. The book helps us better understand patriarchy within the church and how this can cause pain for both women and men—and what we can do in our area of influence to improve. The book also addresses many other topics within the church to help us build Zion including: Discipling Obedience Fear Repentance Worthiness Cynthia's Personal Essay: “Works for Me” Susan's Personal Essay: “Metamorphosis” Speaking Up Why I Wear a Cross I’ve learned so much from these two good women about better ministering to others. I wish their podcast and book existed decades ago—it would have helped me be a better husband, father, church member—and better lift (versus sometimes add) to the burdens of others. I encourage everyone to read/share their book. Thank you, Susan and Cynthia. You two are awesome. Links: Book and podcast: atlastshesaidit.org/

My friend Elder Jax Smith (multi-racial, from Highland Utah, Age 25) joins us to bravely share his story: Middle school: “My personal hell” Coming out to older siblings Suicidal ideation, hospitalization, “choosing to stay” Decision to serve a mission/called to Alabama Birmingham Reason for ending his mission and leaving the Church Role of good people (like Elder Jenkins) to help him return to Church Difficult YSA experience attending with his boyfriend—left the Church for a second time Focusing on Jesus and attending Baptist Church Bishop’s (also his uncle) invitation to attend his YSA Ward Calling that led him to full activity, becoming a temple worker, and going back on a mission Others (like Elder Wright and Brother Monson) that helped him accept himself and feel like he belonged Navigating church generated pain/trauma/difficult experiences Powerful testimony of Jesus Christ and His power to heal This is another super powerful/brave podcast from a remarkable Latter-day Saint. Thank you Elder Jax Smith for being on the podcast. You are a remarkable disciple of Christ, and your story helps others walking difficult roads—and it helps the rest of us have more insights to help everyone feel like the belong and better create Zion. You are a good man! Links: Jax Smith Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556810127958 Jax Smith Instagram: @smith_3_55_

My friend Leon Crandell (lives in Snowflake AZ, cosmetologist, Brazil RM) joins us to bravely share his story: Survivor of sexual abuse Turning to substance abuse to deal with/escape the shame of sexual abuse Later abused by a doctor on his mission—and the shame of wondering why me Concluding being a victim of sexual abuse isn’t why he is gay Getting married (married for 27 years) and not really addressing his sexual orientation Gradually opening up to his wife—and their road to stay in their marriage and the Church Finding community of others walking this road Asking Heavenly Father “What do you think of me”? Super helpful Powerful (and healing) experience in a conversation with Jesus Kurt Francom’s impactful book “Is God Disappointed in Me” Hope instead of shame/fear This is a super powerful, vulnerable, and insightful podcast to help listeners see the role of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to help us find more hope/peace in our lives—and how our unique differences help us reach others—helping to create Zion. You are super brave Leon. Your courage to be honest gives hope to others. You are a good man! Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Leon’s podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/coming-untwo-christ/id1752406845 Leon’s webpage: cominguntwochrist.com/ Leon on Facebook: www.facebook.com/leon.crandell Leon on Instagram: @cominguntwochrist Kurt Francom’s book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0CT67RS86 Dr Robinson: www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9jO9iMbm5U

My friend Darice (married mother of four including a transgender daughter, Gather Conference Director) joins us to share her story including: 1) Proximity to LGBTQ people—seeing their goodness/gifts/kindness 2) Being uncomfortable with the 2015 policy statements—"didn’t align with my spiritual integrity” 3) Being called as Stake Relief Society President and her work to help everyone feel loved and that they belong—including having a Stake inclusion specialist 4) Supporting her transgender daughter and her upcoming marriage to her non-binary partner 5) Living in “complexity” and how that gives her more perspective/tools to help others 6) Getting involved with Gather 7) Upcoming Gather Conference on June 27-28, 2025 Thank you, Darice, for your work to bless so many lives. I encourage everyone to listen to Darice’s story and attend Gather. Thank you for all your work (and many others with Gather) to build Zion and help everyone feel loved and welcome. Links: Gather Conference: thegatherconference.regfox.com/gather-conference-worldwide-2025 Gather Conference Registration: thegatherconference.regfox.com/gather-conference-worldwide-2025 Lift and Love Support Groups: www.liftandlove.org/meeting Darice on Instagram: @dariceauston