The Modern People Leader: Forward-Thinking HR

In this discussion, Joris Luijke, CEO of Pyn, and Jessica Zwaan, author of 'Built for People', delve into the art of employee journey mapping. They emphasize designing for impactful moments rather than just processes, explaining why many employee experiences fail. The conversation covers the balance of prioritizing key moments, the common pitfalls in journey mapping, and the importance of creativity in crafting experiences. They advocate for a holistic view of the employee journey, suggesting effective collaboration across departments to enhance satisfaction and engagement.

Thomas Forstner, VP of People and Talent at Juro, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about building an AI-native company, why HR should own workflows not just the workforce, and how people teams must evolve from playbook followers to visionary architects of the modern org.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.🔗 Get in contact with the Career Sandwich team.🔗 Get your free 30-day Synthesia account.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (06:32) Thomas’ origin story: from psychology to global work experiences(09:52) How he ended up at Juro and grew with the company(11:03) What Juro does and how it’s changing legal and HR workflows(13:05) The state of HR today and the growing gap in AI adoption(14:33) Why giving ChatGPT access will soon be like giving email(16:22) The emerging core AI tech stack every team needs(18:27) How Juro is enabling AI experimentation across teams(20:33) Their “how to AI” rituals, lab reports, and internal AI philosophy(23:40) Why making their AI principles public is a competitive advantage(25:15) Why IT now reports to People at Juro: owning the workflows(26:57) What “WorkTech” means and the rise of the Chief Work Officer(29:12) How AI tools reshaped Stephen’s view on HR and product(32:18) HR as the company OS: When it’s good, everything flows(34:23) Parallel thinking: Sales teams, onboarding, and internal design(37:02) Should you rebuild your HR tech stack? Custom vs. off-the-shelf(39:47) The power of documentation and training AI agents(41:13) Building internal tools with low/no-code: Just try things(43:30) Automating personalized rejection emails with custom GPTs(44:47) Is PeopleOps as a Product evolving into something new?(47:48) People leaders as shape shifters, AI engineers, and CSMs(50:09) Stop chasing playbooks—start building your own operating model(51:17) Setting a clear vision: Juro’s “Company OS” and annual rewrites(54:41) Rapid fire questions: advice, favorite resources, and dream strategies(58:42) What Thomas would steal from Dropbox---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn

Helen Russell, Chief People Officer at HubSpot, dives into fostering an AI-first culture and the pressing importance of belonging in the workplace. She discusses how HR leaders can balance urgency with a human-centered approach, especially during times of change. The conversation highlights the evolution of HubSpot’s talent strategy and the critical role trust plays in employee engagement. Russell also shares insights on integrating AI tools to enhance connection and productivity, ensuring that culture remains a priority in a tech-driven environment.

Lenke Taylor joined us on The Modern People Leader to talk about her path from engineering to HR, and what it means to be a true business partner. We discussed how HR can lead alongside CEOs and CFOs, building high-impact teams, and how working in Europe has shaped her leadership approach.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Get in contact with the Career Sandwich team.🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (04:37) Lenke’s career journey: From chemical engineer to people leader(10:42) What is Personio and how Lenke ended up there(12:17) What business partnering really means in HR(14:37) How AI is changing the way we work(19:05) HR’s evolving role in an AI-transformed workplace(22:46) The CEO–CFO–CPO trio: Strategic collaboration in practice(27:45) Stage-specific HR: Lessons from Google, BuzzFeed, and Personio(30:46) Hiring for growth-stage companies vs. enterprise environments(33:29) Which HR practices are universal, and which should be tailored(36:17) The perks of being in HR at an HR tech company(38:24) Working in Europe vs. the US: Major leadership and HR differences(44:20) Cultural contrasts between US and European leadership styles(47:33) What’s top of mind for HR leaders in Europe today(48:54) Rapid-fire questions: Advice, superpower nickname, strategy to steal(52:06) Guest recommendation: Katarina Berg (CHRO at On, formerly Spotify)(53:04) One-word close: Business is people strategy---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn

We were joined by people leaders from Glassdoor, Asana, and Gusto. We talked about the fragmented burnout and how it’s hitting people differently, how performance expectations have shifted in the last 6-12 months, and more.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Get in contact with the Career Sandwich team.🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (03:18) Good news stories from the guests and hosts(10:25) Fragmented burnout & how it’s hitting different roles(12:09) External pressures, AI anxiety & workplace expectations(13:27) Burnout as a personal experience: ownership vs. company responsibility(16:35) Rethinking roles, flexibility & meeting changing employee expectations(19:16) Empowering managers to reimagine roles using AI(20:41) Clarifying the Employee Value Proposition (EVP) during transformation(22:08) Internal mobility in the age of AI: org chart vs. work chart(24:32) From bell curve to bell cliff: redefining performance expectations(26:04) HR’s role in transparent, human-centered performance shifts(29:20) Has the performance bar moved? Surveying the room(31:53) How Glassdoor is redesigning performance with clarity & structure(34:03) The emotional toll of high performance & psychological safety risks(35:44) Simple, powerful manager questions to surface blockers(37:01) Peer feedback and cross-functional collaboration blockers(41:09) Asking for help, normalizing team-based problem solving(42:06) After party reflections: rethinking performance with old & new problems(45:58) Why AI is the catalyst—but not the only answer—for a new performance model(48:54) Real-time AI coaching & proactive performance feedback at scale(52:23) Moving from annual reviews to check-in > coach > calibrate(55:05) Magic wand question: what performance challenge would you automate?---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Jessica Zwaan joined us again to unpack the metrics that actually matter in HR today. We talked about the three buckets of metrics every People Leader should use, why the RANS test is a better way to measure engagement, and the one metric to rule them all (ELTV:CAC). ---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Go book your next offsite with Marco Experiences.🔗 Get in contact with the Career Sandwich team.🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (04:33) Metrics and Visualization: Where People Analytics Stands Today(05:41) Why HR Has Talked About Analytics for Years But Still Struggles(08:12) The Double-Edged Sword of AI in People Analytics(10:15) LLMs Are Great at Cleanup, Not Complex Analysis(12:04) What Good People Analytics Looks Like in Practice(13:44) Health, Operational, and Success Metrics Explained(16:28) Vanity Metrics HR Teams Should Avoid(18:12) The Case Against ENPS (Engagement Net Promoter Score)(21:05) Why You Can—and Should—Measure the “Unmeasurable”(24:15) The First Step in Building a Metrics-Led HR Culture(27:23) Why Manual Data Work is Still Essential(29:24) The Importance of Defining Critical Numbers(32:05) A Real Example: Visualizing Comp Data to Drive Strategy(34:12) Jessica’s Beef with Pie Charts (and Why You Should Care)(37:29) Favorite Metrics: Interview-to-Performance Correlation & RANS Test(42:45) Why ELTV to CAC Payback Should Be HR’s North Star Metric(47:43) Commercial Effectiveness Through People Metrics(48:13) Tech Stack Tips for Getting Started with HR Data---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Frieda Möcker, Head of People & Culture at Sastrify, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about the first steps she took to treat HR more like a product, how her team does sprint planning, and why she prefers “NCTs” over OKRs.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.🔗 Go book your next offsite with Marco Experiences.🔗 Get in contact with the Career Sandwich team.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- Timestamps:(11:05) What’s Your Story? – Frieda’s path from business grad to People leader(17:30) Lessons in Career – Finding purpose, startups, and self-awareness(18:47) About Sastrify – SaaS management, shadow IT, and compliance(20:40) Why PeopleOps as a Product Resonated – Discovering the framework(23:03) Reading Jessica’s Blog – The gym moment that changed everything(25:15) Reaching Out to Jessica – Building connections through shared philosophy(26:23) Putting Theory into Practice – Mapping employee journeys, launching sprints(29:17) Our 3 Guiding Principles – Maximize impact, think like a scientist, build through others(31:33) Employee Research – Interviews, pulse checks, and surfacing insights(33:26) Making It Your Own – Culture fit and adapting frameworks(34:05) Maximizing to Mission – How priorities ladder up to company goals(38:27) Ruthless Prioritization – Why some good ideas wait in the backlog(39:35) Team Structure – A three-person generalist People team(41:33) Visualization in Practice – Miro, Asana, Slack, and the “SAN Stack”(42:58) Sprint Planning – Lifecycle mapping, roles, and task ownership(47:58) What Is ScrumBan? – Combining kanban boards and sprint logic(50:20) Blocking & Saying No – How visualizing work helps stakeholders understand tradeoffs---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Tiffany Stevenson, former Chief People Officer at Weight Watchers, Kelli Dragovich, a seasoned HR leader and co-host of HR Heretics, and Jennifer Rettig, Chief People Officer at Pendo.io, discuss the current pressures on HR leaders. They highlight the urgent need to reshape performance management, focus on clear expectations, and foster genuine conversations in the workplace. The trio also dives into the importance of building trust through transparent feedback and suggests modern solutions to better align performance reviews with organizational values.

Jessica Zwaan, the author of 'Built for People' and expert in People Ops, delves into innovative hiring practices for operational teams. She discusses the five essential skillsets needed in candidates, emphasizing the power of planning as a secret weapon. Zwaan introduces the concept of T-shaped talent and advocates for case studies in interviews to assess problem-solving abilities. With a focus on moving HR from compliance to strategy, she highlights the significance of flexibility and creativity in hiring processes, aiming to reshape the employee experience.

In this engaging discussion, Matt McFarlane, Director of FNDN and a compensation expert, teams up with Haris Ikram, Co-Founder and CEO of CandorIQ, who specializes in tech solutions for HR. They delve into the complexities of modern compensation, emphasizing the need for transparency and effective job architecture. The duo shares strategies for aligning compensation with performance, leveraging AI tools, and transforming merit cycles. They also explore the shifting expectations of Gen Z in the workplace, providing invaluable insights for forward-thinking HR leaders.