Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies

Manish Dudharejia, founder of E2M Solutions, dives into how AI is reshaping agency efficiency, urging firms to adapt or risk being left behind. Kriston Sellier shares her journey from freelancer to CEO, highlighting the importance of building a strong advisory team. Chris Dreyer stresses the value of personal client relationships, advocating for in-person meetings over automation. Together, they provide insights on scaling agencies, embracing technology, and maintaining meaningful connections in an increasingly digital landscape.

Kimberly Eberl, Founder and CEO of The Motion Agency, shares her insider knowledge on growing agencies through acquisitions. She reflects on her five acquisition experiences, revealing the crucial role of cultural fit in successful mergers. Kimberly discusses how misjudging valuations can derail deals and highlights a recent acquisition that fell through due to financial mismatches. The conversation also delves into the evolving dynamics of team structures and the significance of adapting to maintain a top-performing roster.

In this engaging discussion, Andy Crestodina, co-founder of Orbit Media, shares his insights from 25 years in the web development industry. He highlights the importance of slow, organic growth through content marketing and discusses the costly fallout of failed partnerships, including his own experiences with buyouts and toxic dynamics. Andy emphasizes hiring the right leadership to reclaim time and focus on what truly matters while sharing valuable lessons on prioritizing team culture and the art of saying 'yes' to meaningful opportunities.

Would you like access to our advanced agency training for FREE? https://www.agencymastery360.com/training What would you do if the merger you believed would change everything suddenly collapsed? Agency owners often dream of the big exit: the acquisition, the payday, the validation. But if you've been in this industry long enough, you know the story rarely goes as planned. Today's guest lived through the dot-com boom, a merger gone sideways, a rare "un-merger," and multiple reinventions across three decades. Today's featured guest is an agency owner who lived through the dot com boom, a merger gone sideways, an unmerger (a rare event), and multiple reinventions over three decades. He'll talk about his journey and the lessons he's gained in resilience, clarity, and what it means to build a business that lasts. Tom Snyder is the founder and CEO of Trivera, a Milwaukee-based agency that originally launched in 1996 under the name Website Solutions. He got his start back when tables ruled the web, Netscape Navigator was leading the browser war, and you had to explain to clients what the internet even was. Tom's agency grew quickly through the dot com boom, became part of an early multi-agency rollup, unmerged after the dot com crash, and later rebuilt itself around strategic services, recurring revenue, and emerging technologies. Thirty years later, he has seen nearly every high and low this industry can deliver and has the scars and wisdom to match. In this episode, we'll discuss: The roll up that seemed like a dream and the subsequent meltdown. The rare chance to unmerger. Learning to adapt to new technologies. Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio Sponsors and Resources This episode is brought to you by Wix Studio: If you're leveling up your team and your client experience, your site builder should keep up too. That's why successful agencies use Wix Studio — built to adapt the way your agency does: AI-powered site mapping, responsive design, flexible workflows, and scalable CMS tools so you spend less on plugins and more on growth. Ready to design faster and smarter? Go to wix.com/studio to get started. The Early Days of the Web: A Front Row Seat to Digital History Tom got into websites before most people even understood what a web browser was. He recalls visiting a friend in 1995 who showed him a website for a local jeweler. The fact that someone in Milwaukee could suddenly sell jewelry to anyone in the world blew his mind. That spark soon became Website Solutions, a one-man shop in his duplex basement that grew into a million-dollar agency within three years. These early days were defined by scrappiness. There were no WordPress installs, no Mailchimp, no Shopify. Agencies wrote their own CMS platforms, email tools, and ecommerce systems. For years, Trivera worked on project-based engagements. Sell a website. Build it. Launch it. Then hunt for the next one. It created a revenue roller coaster that made it hard to grow. Then the breakthrough came when someone asked a simple question: Why are you not offering annual retained services? Once they shifted the model, everything changed. Retainers gave them predictable cash flow, stability during downturns, and the ability to build deeper, longer-term partnerships. Inside the Dot-Com Boom and the Rollup That Promised Millions By the late nineties, agency rollups were happening everywhere. Big groups on the West Coast were buying smaller shops at high valuations, promising stock payouts that would multiply as the group grew. Tom's agency was acquired by one of these rollups. The offer was attractive: $1 million in stock with the expectation that it could balloon into ten million within a couple of years. For Tom, this was more than a payday. It felt like a way to secure better opportunities for his team. Higher salaries, better benefits, more resources. All the things agency owners often think a larger parent company can provide. But as the ink dried on the deal, the dot com crash hit. Internal battles erupted among the agency owners inside the rollup. Some wanted to scale fast and sell. Others were emotionally attached to their agencies and resisted change. As the economy collapsed, so did the plan. When an Agency Merger Falls Apart Tom describes the internal environment as chaos. Agencies within the rollup started blaming one another for the downturn. Some owners viewed Tom's Midwest operation as a weak link and argued it was a mistake to acquire them. Then came the breaking point. At a Las Vegas meeting that was supposed to chart a path forward, Tom learned that he would lose control of his agency. His wife, who served as CFO, would be dismissed. His team would report to another agency owner. This happened on September 10th. The next morning, as they sat in their hotel room trying to process what to do, the news broke that planes had hit the World Trade Center. The world changed, and so did their priorities. In that moment of clarity, they made the decision to walk away and unmerge. How a Rare Un-Merge Saved the Agency Unmerging from an agency rollup almost never happens. But because the rollup was already fracturing, the leadership was surprisingly open to it. They returned most of the shares, let Tom keep a small portion, and released the original agency name. From there, Tom and his wife rebuilt everything from scratch under a new identity. Although it felt like the right decision to make, they were still exiting what was still a financially stable operation to start from scratch, which was a scary but necessary step to take. They brainstormed names that felt Greek or Latin until they arrived at Trivera. The name itself was available only because the previous owner had just let the domain lapse. It felt like a small sign that starting over was the right move. This reset allowed Tom to build the agency the right way. No irrational exuberance, burn rates, or pressure to sell. Just strong culture, smart financial discipline, and an eye on durable business fundamentals. How Adapting to New Technology Helped Survive in Crisis After the dot com crash, new technologies created fresh opportunities. SEO, email marketing, mobile, and social opened new revenue streams that helped Trivera rebound each time the economy dipped. Tom noticed a pattern. Every downturn was followed by a brand new marketing wave that rewarded the agencies willing to embrace it early. One of the most pivotal moments came during the 2009 recession. The agency had lost clients, payroll was tight, and they needed a breakthrough. Everyone was asking about social media at the time, so Tom and his team built an event called Social Media University. They hustled for two months and ended up selling 400 tickets. The sales and sponsorship revenue kept their payroll alive and catapulted them into a new service category. Events like this do more than create revenue. They cement authority, give an agency a story in the market, and in Tom's case, it opened doors to new clients and positioned them for the next evolution of the agency. Letting Go of Comparison to Stay Focused on the Journey Despite the wins, Tom admits there were years he compared his agency to others and wondered why they scaled or sold faster, especially some that got the tools from his very social media event. It is easy to feel behind when you see competitors raising money, getting acquired, or shouting big revenue numbers. However, there's very little one can actually know about other agency's purchase deals. These stories are incomplete. You never know what the real terms were. You never know the headaches behind the scenes. And you definitely never know if they actually took money home. Success in the agency world is rarely a straight line. It is more often a messy, winding path filled with reinventions, hard conversations, and moments when you question everything. So agency owners struggling and watching others reach new milestones should remind themselves that longevity comes from resilience, not a perfect upward curve. Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset? Looking to dig deeper into your agency's potential? Check out our Agency Blueprint. Designed for agency owners like you, our Agency Blueprint helps you uncover growth opportunities, tackle obstacles, and craft a customized blueprint for your agency's success.

Would you like access to our advanced agency training for FREE? https://www.agencymastery360.com/training As a user, do you still use search engines or have completely defaulted to AI? How will this shift reshape the agency world? How will ads work when people are only getting the one answer they need? Most agency owners are still treating SEO like it's 2012 — optimizing keywords, buying backlinks, and praying to the Google gods. But search has already changed. People are asking AI for answers, not Googling for links. And if you want your agency or your personal brand to stay visible in this new era, the rules are completely different. Today's featured guest will unpack the shift from SEO to AEO and why most businesses are invisible to AI without even realizing it. Kasim Aslam is one of the world's leading voices on Answer Engine Optimization. He runs one of the largest AEO communities and leads a six person research team that has analyzed millions of AI citations to understand how large language models choose their sources. He is also the author of The AEO Blueprint and the founder of multiple companies, including a staffing agency, a mastermind, and AEO.co. Kasim has spent the past year deep in the trenches studying how AI crawlers gather, filter, and prioritize information. When it comes to AEO, nobody has more real data. In this episode, we'll discuss: SEO is over. Understanding AEO. Why brands may get lost in LLMs. The quiet Google change that just changed everything in AI citations. The future of ads. Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio Sponsors and Resources E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service. Why SEO Is No Longer Enough: The Rise of Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) To understand Answer Engine Optimization, we must first understand that, despite what some agencies may be saying, it is not the same as SEO. Traditional search engines prioritize links. That is why entire industries exist around buying them. In the world of LLMs, backlinks barely matter. The number one ranking factor for AI citations is schema markup. And only 12.4% of websites have clean, validated schema. In other words, nearly 90% of brands are invisible to AI crawlers, regardless of how strong their SEO is. Schema isn't just another optimization tactic. It is the visibility layer. It is the metadata that helps LLMs understand and categorize your content. If your schema is broken or missing, AI cannot reference you even if your content is excellent. This is the equivalent of having a beautiful storefront on a street no one can find. The second key is social mentions. In the same way SEO relied on links, AEO relies on people talking about you. For instance, a TikTok comment from someone in the agency industry saying Jason Swenk is their go-to agency guy counts as an authority signal. LLMs weigh these human mentions heavily. Finally, a lot of the nuances on AEO are changing every day, but Kasim has learned that the real key is building authority, long-form content. That along with clear schema and personal brand is the future of staying in the conversation. Why Personal Authority Beats Brand Authority in AI Search One of the biggest shifts Kasim highlights is that answer engines prefer individuals. A person can write a book, earn a PhD, share opinions, create content, develop mastery, and build authority in a way brands cannot. That means generalists are in trouble. If your expertise is scattered, AI won't know how to classify you and won't choose you as an authoritative answer. Meanwhile, someone who goes deep in a single topic becomes the preferred answer. It is a shift away from corporate brand authority and toward personal authority. Authority is not spread across a company anymore. It sits with people. Agencies that hide behind a brand name will lose visibility. Personal brands that plant a flag will win. For agency owners, this is huge. You do not need a bigger brand. You need clear expertise tied to a real person. This is exactly why Jason positions all the Agency Mastery content around him. Personalities thrive. Brands get lost. Where LLMs Get Their Data (and Why That Just Changed Overnight) Kasim's research revealed that 21 percent of all AI citations once came from Reddit. YouTube followed at 18.8 percent. These platforms had deep context and raw human conversation, which LLMs love. Then Google quietly changed everything. Twenty two days before the interview, Google cut off 90% of the internet from AI crawlers by reducing search results from hundreds to ten. Because LLMs rely on deep search results (not the top ten), reducing the searchable depth limits the information AI can access - removing platforms like Reddit from the AI training pipeline. AI tools rely heavily on these deeper results for nuance. By limiting access, Google essentially removed Reddit and other community based sites from the AI food chain. This change sent shockwaves through stock prices and visibility, and most people never noticed. Google is protecting the content needed to train AI because only two organizations truly own the global knowledge graph: Google and Amazon. OpenAI and the rest are crawling, not casing, the internet, which means they operate at a major disadvantage. Google is playing statecraft. And according to Kasim, Google will win the AI race. The Rise of Screenless Search and Voice-Driven Results According to Kasim, we are quickly moving toward a screenless world. Eric Schmidt has said the screenless future is years away, not decades. And the younger generation is already there. Over 55 percent of people under 25 use voice instead of text. Voice queries require different markup, structure, and formatting, and only 0.3 percent of websites use voice schema. Meanwhile, 65 percent of all searches end in zero clicks. People are asking, getting an answer, and moving on. That number does not even include the people who have stopped using search altogether and have already shifted to answer engines. This means your future website is not for your audience. It is for AI. Kasim is rebuilding his personal site in Notion because he believes CSS-light, simple, stripped down sites will perform better for AI ingestion. We are entering a world where content is created for machines first and humans last. How Google Gemini Is Rewriting the Future of Advertising Here is a wild data point. When Kasim set up new Chromebooks for his kids, he discovered the default search engine was not Google. It was Gemini. Google owns Chrome. Google owns Chromebooks. Yet they replaced its primary revenue driver on its own device with a product that currently has no ads. This tells you where the company is headed. They are rebuilding a new knowledge graph optimized for answer engines, while competitors still reply on the old search-oriented graph. And the future ad model will be nothing like what agencies grew up on. If one answer becomes the default experience, where do ads go? How are they shown? What are users willing to tolerate? And will businesses have to give away deep content to earn visibility the same way early YouTubers and bloggers did? These questions will reshape the entire lead generation ecosystem. Data, Moats, and the K-Shaped Economy The people who win in this new world are those who own data. Not tool access or workflows. Data. Custom GPTs, custom models, and proprietary knowledge bases become your moat. We are entering a K-shaped economy. Twenty percent of people and businesses will become unstoppable because their productivity will outpace demand. Eighty percent will fall to zero. The middle disappears. That means agency owners must adapt, evolve, and lean into deep expertise. Vibe coding (the rapid, exploratory use of AI tools) and no code platforms are accelerating this divide. Kasim's team recreated a software that normally costs ten thousand a year in a weekend. Entire SaaS categories are about to be wiped out. Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset? Looking to dig deeper into your agency's potential? Check out our Agency Blueprint. Designed for agency owners like you, our Agency Blueprint helps you uncover growth opportunities, tackle obstacles, and craft a customized blueprint for your agency's success.

Charlie Clark, founder of Minty Digital, shares insights from his boutique SEO agency specializing in travel and lifestyle brands. He reveals why focusing on smaller mid-market clients has proven more profitable than chasing enterprise accounts. Charlie discusses the importance of transparent pricing, internal efficiency systems, and the psychological advantages of low-risk initial offers to build trust and encourage larger engagements. He also touches on the impact of AI in SEO, emphasizing the need for data-driven strategies to navigate the hype.

Would you like access to our advanced agency training for FREE? https://www.agencymastery360.com/training Why do clients keep asking for deliverables they don't actually need? How to get them to focus on the outcome instead of the task list? Every agency owner has had clients show up asking for a website, SEO, or a million social posts, when what they actually need is something much deeper: more leads, more profit, more time back, and a business they're proud of again. Today's featured guest broke down how he built an 11-year-old shop that delivers exactly that. We dig into why small businesses really hire agencies, why "selling SEO" is a trap, and how simplifying complex work can make your agency more profitable, more trusted, and a hell of a lot easier to run. Nico Biggi, Founder of The Gorilla Agency a full-service Oregon digital agency that helps small businesses achieve their marketing goals. After applying to 31 agencies and hearing absolutely nothing back, he decided if no one would hire him, he'd simply build the place he wished existed. Eleven years later, his agency helps small businesses fall in love with their companies again by delivering marketing that feels personal, purposeful, and rooted in truth—not hype. In this interview, we'll discuss: Why clients don't want SEO and what small business are really buying. How radical simplicity makes agencies more profitable. Walking away from big clients to make your agency stronger. How AI is changing client expectations. Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio Sponsors and Resources E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service. Why Clients Don't Actually Want SEO (And What They're Really Buying from Agencies) Nico knows why his clients first reach out and he understands that, in reality, no one wants SEO. No one wants a website. No one wants a content calendar. What they want is for their phone to ring. They want predictable revenue and to stop feeling behind. Basically, they want a business that finally looks and performs the way they imagined when they started it. Hence, when Nico sits with a new client, he doesn't take their request at face value. He keeps pulling the thread: Why do you want that? What are you really trying to fix? What's happening behind the scenes that made you reach out today? By the time he gets to the core problem, the tactical service almost never matches the thing they originally asked for. And that's where trust is built—showing clients the real path to their desired outcome, not the task list they think they need. As he puts it: Services are the toolkit. Outcomes are the reason you pick up the tools. How Radical Simplicity Makes Agencies More Profitable and Improves Client Trust During client meetings, Nico strives to strip away the complexity agencies tend to hide behind. Clients don't want a masterclass in keyword density or a dissertation-length PDF they'll never read. They want clarity. To him, the best operators and the best salespeople think like teachers. Teachers take complicated ideas and make them accessible. They speak in a way a fifth grader can understand, because simplicity builds confidence, and confidence builds buy-in. Inside his own agency, this shows up in the way he trains his team. No silos. No "not my job." Everyone learns how every part of the system works, from content, SEO, design, dev, and strategy. That shared understanding creates respect, efficiency, and a culture where no one feels like they're building in the dark. Everyone in his team is taught that no one is above anyone and they're all running the machine together. It's a mindset that creates accountability among the team and helps the client understand exactly what they're paying for. Why Saying No to Big Clients Can Make Your Agency Stronger Every agency owner has a moment where the "big" client forces them to rethink everything. For Nico, it was early on, when a client offered him more money than he even asked for ($10k a month) and three months later, he fired the client. On paper, it was a dream account. In practice, it drained the team, misaligned with their process, and became the catalyst for rebuilding the agency from the ground up. He spent two years refining every process—on-page and off-page SEO, content creation, design systems, communication workflows—all centered around one thing: making sure clients always know where their money is going and how it's working. Most agencies duct-tape their operations when things get messy instead of rebuilding the underlying, broken system. Nico rebuilt his foundation truly believing that all business owners need is for someone to create systems, truly listen to them, and help them articulate what they do for their clients. Authenticity Converts (And Your Clients Need Your Help to Show It) Nico's wife unknowingly became the perfect case study for modern buyer behavior. Before choosing anything (restaurants, local services, events) she checks: Reviews Menus FAQs Photos Location Details User experience Credibility That's what most customers are doing, and the standard Nico sets for his clients. He wants to work with businesses that engage with clients and answer their questions, show their work with real photos, tell compelling stories, show proof, have a clean, intuitive website. If it doesn't pass what Nico calls "the wife test" — if a business doesn't have clear answers, real photos, social proof, strong UX, and transparent information — it doesn't ship. And the same goes for exclusivity: Nico refuses to work with two companies in the same industry and service area. He wants to make one the best, not compete against himself for small wins. How AI Is Changing Client Expectations and Why It Won't Replace Agencies Nico sees AI from both angles: the opportunity and the threat. On one hand, AI makes clients think everything should be instant and $500. He's already had clients send him AI-generated instructions like they're firing off tasks to a robot. The danger isn't AI itself but rather clients misunderstanding what real strategy, design, content, and user experience actually require. But the other side is where he sees massive upside. AI removes the repetitive, thankless tasks that bog agencies down. It gives teams more room to think, solve, and create. It lets agencies deliver more value, not less, if they use it correctly. AI doesn't replace strategy and, more importantly, it doesn't replace the human connection that actually closes deals. Your network is your edge. Tools evolve but human trust, real expertise, and the ability to guide clients through complexity—that doesn't. Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset? Looking to dig deeper into your agency's potential? Check out our Agency Blueprint. Designed for agency owners like you, our Agency Blueprint helps you uncover growth opportunities, tackle obstacles, and craft a customized blueprint for your agency's success.

In this conversation, Eric Gray, founder of Maverick Content Studio and a former leader at Universal Parks & Resorts, shares why he left his corporate 'dream job' at 41 to start his own agency. He discusses the challenges of targeting Fortune 500 brands, leveraging his network to secure early clients, and building both his agency and personal brand through social media. Eric also opens up about the mental challenges of entrepreneurship and his unique recruitment strategies that help him attract talent in a competitive market.

Elyse Lupin, president and founder of Elysium Marketing Group, shares her journey from a solo entrepreneur to leading a thriving agency specializing in food and franchise marketing. She discusses the paradox of growth: challenges intensify as you scale, emphasizing the importance of client and team retention as true indicators of success. Elyse highlights the value of celebrating small wins and fostering a strong company culture as strategic advantages. She also reflects on the significance of letting go of control and empowering her team to drive success.

Michael Davern, CEO of Incept and an early adopter of AI in digital marketing, shares his insights on thriving in an AI-driven landscape. He discusses why 'AI-enhanced' agencies, which blend technology with human connection, outperform 'AI-first' models. Michael emphasizes the importance of leadership and relationships in maintaining long client lifecycles. He advises agency owners to embrace innovation, actively foster team creativity, and navigate the noise created by poor tools in the market. A strong push for human-first strategies is at the core of his approach.