Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies

Would you like access to our advanced agency training for FREE? https://www.agencymastery360.com/training As a user, do you still use search engines or have completely defaulted to AI? How will this shift reshape the agency world? How will ads work when people are only getting the one answer they need? Most agency owners are still treating SEO like it's 2012 — optimizing keywords, buying backlinks, and praying to the Google gods. But search has already changed. People are asking AI for answers, not Googling for links. And if you want your agency or your personal brand to stay visible in this new era, the rules are completely different. Today's featured guest will unpack the shift from SEO to AEO and why most businesses are invisible to AI without even realizing it. Kasim Aslam is one of the world's leading voices on Answer Engine Optimization. He runs one of the largest AEO communities and leads a six person research team that has analyzed millions of AI citations to understand how large language models choose their sources. He is also the author of The AEO Blueprint and the founder of multiple companies, including a staffing agency, a mastermind, and AEO.co. Kasim has spent the past year deep in the trenches studying how AI crawlers gather, filter, and prioritize information. When it comes to AEO, nobody has more real data. In this episode, we'll discuss: SEO is over. Understanding AEO. Why brands may get lost in LLMs. The quiet Google change that just changed everything in AI citations. The future of ads. Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio Sponsors and Resources E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service. Why SEO Is No Longer Enough: The Rise of Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) To understand Answer Engine Optimization, we must first understand that, despite what some agencies may be saying, it is not the same as SEO. Traditional search engines prioritize links. That is why entire industries exist around buying them. In the world of LLMs, backlinks barely matter. The number one ranking factor for AI citations is schema markup. And only 12.4% of websites have clean, validated schema. In other words, nearly 90% of brands are invisible to AI crawlers, regardless of how strong their SEO is. Schema isn't just another optimization tactic. It is the visibility layer. It is the metadata that helps LLMs understand and categorize your content. If your schema is broken or missing, AI cannot reference you even if your content is excellent. This is the equivalent of having a beautiful storefront on a street no one can find. The second key is social mentions. In the same way SEO relied on links, AEO relies on people talking about you. For instance, a TikTok comment from someone in the agency industry saying Jason Swenk is their go-to agency guy counts as an authority signal. LLMs weigh these human mentions heavily. Finally, a lot of the nuances on AEO are changing every day, but Kasim has learned that the real key is building authority, long-form content. That along with clear schema and personal brand is the future of staying in the conversation. Why Personal Authority Beats Brand Authority in AI Search One of the biggest shifts Kasim highlights is that answer engines prefer individuals. A person can write a book, earn a PhD, share opinions, create content, develop mastery, and build authority in a way brands cannot. That means generalists are in trouble. If your expertise is scattered, AI won't know how to classify you and won't choose you as an authoritative answer. Meanwhile, someone who goes deep in a single topic becomes the preferred answer. It is a shift away from corporate brand authority and toward personal authority. Authority is not spread across a company anymore. It sits with people. Agencies that hide behind a brand name will lose visibility. Personal brands that plant a flag will win. For agency owners, this is huge. You do not need a bigger brand. You need clear expertise tied to a real person. This is exactly why Jason positions all the Agency Mastery content around him. Personalities thrive. Brands get lost. Where LLMs Get Their Data (and Why That Just Changed Overnight) Kasim's research revealed that 21 percent of all AI citations once came from Reddit. YouTube followed at 18.8 percent. These platforms had deep context and raw human conversation, which LLMs love. Then Google quietly changed everything. Twenty two days before the interview, Google cut off 90% of the internet from AI crawlers by reducing search results from hundreds to ten. Because LLMs rely on deep search results (not the top ten), reducing the searchable depth limits the information AI can access - removing platforms like Reddit from the AI training pipeline. AI tools rely heavily on these deeper results for nuance. By limiting access, Google essentially removed Reddit and other community based sites from the AI food chain. This change sent shockwaves through stock prices and visibility, and most people never noticed. Google is protecting the content needed to train AI because only two organizations truly own the global knowledge graph: Google and Amazon. OpenAI and the rest are crawling, not casing, the internet, which means they operate at a major disadvantage. Google is playing statecraft. And according to Kasim, Google will win the AI race. The Rise of Screenless Search and Voice-Driven Results According to Kasim, we are quickly moving toward a screenless world. Eric Schmidt has said the screenless future is years away, not decades. And the younger generation is already there. Over 55 percent of people under 25 use voice instead of text. Voice queries require different markup, structure, and formatting, and only 0.3 percent of websites use voice schema. Meanwhile, 65 percent of all searches end in zero clicks. People are asking, getting an answer, and moving on. That number does not even include the people who have stopped using search altogether and have already shifted to answer engines. This means your future website is not for your audience. It is for AI. Kasim is rebuilding his personal site in Notion because he believes CSS-light, simple, stripped down sites will perform better for AI ingestion. We are entering a world where content is created for machines first and humans last. How Google Gemini Is Rewriting the Future of Advertising Here is a wild data point. When Kasim set up new Chromebooks for his kids, he discovered the default search engine was not Google. It was Gemini. Google owns Chrome. Google owns Chromebooks. Yet they replaced its primary revenue driver on its own device with a product that currently has no ads. This tells you where the company is headed. They are rebuilding a new knowledge graph optimized for answer engines, while competitors still reply on the old search-oriented graph. And the future ad model will be nothing like what agencies grew up on. If one answer becomes the default experience, where do ads go? How are they shown? What are users willing to tolerate? And will businesses have to give away deep content to earn visibility the same way early YouTubers and bloggers did? These questions will reshape the entire lead generation ecosystem. Data, Moats, and the K-Shaped Economy The people who win in this new world are those who own data. Not tool access or workflows. Data. Custom GPTs, custom models, and proprietary knowledge bases become your moat. We are entering a K-shaped economy. Twenty percent of people and businesses will become unstoppable because their productivity will outpace demand. Eighty percent will fall to zero. The middle disappears. That means agency owners must adapt, evolve, and lean into deep expertise. Vibe coding (the rapid, exploratory use of AI tools) and no code platforms are accelerating this divide. Kasim's team recreated a software that normally costs ten thousand a year in a weekend. Entire SaaS categories are about to be wiped out. Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset? Looking to dig deeper into your agency's potential? Check out our Agency Blueprint. Designed for agency owners like you, our Agency Blueprint helps you uncover growth opportunities, tackle obstacles, and craft a customized blueprint for your agency's success.

Charlie Clark, founder of Minty Digital, shares insights from his boutique SEO agency specializing in travel and lifestyle brands. He reveals why focusing on smaller mid-market clients has proven more profitable than chasing enterprise accounts. Charlie discusses the importance of transparent pricing, internal efficiency systems, and the psychological advantages of low-risk initial offers to build trust and encourage larger engagements. He also touches on the impact of AI in SEO, emphasizing the need for data-driven strategies to navigate the hype.

Would you like access to our advanced agency training for FREE? https://www.agencymastery360.com/training Why do clients keep asking for deliverables they don't actually need? How to get them to focus on the outcome instead of the task list? Every agency owner has had clients show up asking for a website, SEO, or a million social posts, when what they actually need is something much deeper: more leads, more profit, more time back, and a business they're proud of again. Today's featured guest broke down how he built an 11-year-old shop that delivers exactly that. We dig into why small businesses really hire agencies, why "selling SEO" is a trap, and how simplifying complex work can make your agency more profitable, more trusted, and a hell of a lot easier to run. Nico Biggi, Founder of The Gorilla Agency a full-service Oregon digital agency that helps small businesses achieve their marketing goals. After applying to 31 agencies and hearing absolutely nothing back, he decided if no one would hire him, he'd simply build the place he wished existed. Eleven years later, his agency helps small businesses fall in love with their companies again by delivering marketing that feels personal, purposeful, and rooted in truth—not hype. In this interview, we'll discuss: Why clients don't want SEO and what small business are really buying. How radical simplicity makes agencies more profitable. Walking away from big clients to make your agency stronger. How AI is changing client expectations. Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio Sponsors and Resources E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service. Why Clients Don't Actually Want SEO (And What They're Really Buying from Agencies) Nico knows why his clients first reach out and he understands that, in reality, no one wants SEO. No one wants a website. No one wants a content calendar. What they want is for their phone to ring. They want predictable revenue and to stop feeling behind. Basically, they want a business that finally looks and performs the way they imagined when they started it. Hence, when Nico sits with a new client, he doesn't take their request at face value. He keeps pulling the thread: Why do you want that? What are you really trying to fix? What's happening behind the scenes that made you reach out today? By the time he gets to the core problem, the tactical service almost never matches the thing they originally asked for. And that's where trust is built—showing clients the real path to their desired outcome, not the task list they think they need. As he puts it: Services are the toolkit. Outcomes are the reason you pick up the tools. How Radical Simplicity Makes Agencies More Profitable and Improves Client Trust During client meetings, Nico strives to strip away the complexity agencies tend to hide behind. Clients don't want a masterclass in keyword density or a dissertation-length PDF they'll never read. They want clarity. To him, the best operators and the best salespeople think like teachers. Teachers take complicated ideas and make them accessible. They speak in a way a fifth grader can understand, because simplicity builds confidence, and confidence builds buy-in. Inside his own agency, this shows up in the way he trains his team. No silos. No "not my job." Everyone learns how every part of the system works, from content, SEO, design, dev, and strategy. That shared understanding creates respect, efficiency, and a culture where no one feels like they're building in the dark. Everyone in his team is taught that no one is above anyone and they're all running the machine together. It's a mindset that creates accountability among the team and helps the client understand exactly what they're paying for. Why Saying No to Big Clients Can Make Your Agency Stronger Every agency owner has a moment where the "big" client forces them to rethink everything. For Nico, it was early on, when a client offered him more money than he even asked for ($10k a month) and three months later, he fired the client. On paper, it was a dream account. In practice, it drained the team, misaligned with their process, and became the catalyst for rebuilding the agency from the ground up. He spent two years refining every process—on-page and off-page SEO, content creation, design systems, communication workflows—all centered around one thing: making sure clients always know where their money is going and how it's working. Most agencies duct-tape their operations when things get messy instead of rebuilding the underlying, broken system. Nico rebuilt his foundation truly believing that all business owners need is for someone to create systems, truly listen to them, and help them articulate what they do for their clients. Authenticity Converts (And Your Clients Need Your Help to Show It) Nico's wife unknowingly became the perfect case study for modern buyer behavior. Before choosing anything (restaurants, local services, events) she checks: Reviews Menus FAQs Photos Location Details User experience Credibility That's what most customers are doing, and the standard Nico sets for his clients. He wants to work with businesses that engage with clients and answer their questions, show their work with real photos, tell compelling stories, show proof, have a clean, intuitive website. If it doesn't pass what Nico calls "the wife test" — if a business doesn't have clear answers, real photos, social proof, strong UX, and transparent information — it doesn't ship. And the same goes for exclusivity: Nico refuses to work with two companies in the same industry and service area. He wants to make one the best, not compete against himself for small wins. How AI Is Changing Client Expectations and Why It Won't Replace Agencies Nico sees AI from both angles: the opportunity and the threat. On one hand, AI makes clients think everything should be instant and $500. He's already had clients send him AI-generated instructions like they're firing off tasks to a robot. The danger isn't AI itself but rather clients misunderstanding what real strategy, design, content, and user experience actually require. But the other side is where he sees massive upside. AI removes the repetitive, thankless tasks that bog agencies down. It gives teams more room to think, solve, and create. It lets agencies deliver more value, not less, if they use it correctly. AI doesn't replace strategy and, more importantly, it doesn't replace the human connection that actually closes deals. Your network is your edge. Tools evolve but human trust, real expertise, and the ability to guide clients through complexity—that doesn't. Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset? Looking to dig deeper into your agency's potential? Check out our Agency Blueprint. Designed for agency owners like you, our Agency Blueprint helps you uncover growth opportunities, tackle obstacles, and craft a customized blueprint for your agency's success.

In this conversation, Eric Gray, founder of Maverick Content Studio and a former leader at Universal Parks & Resorts, shares why he left his corporate 'dream job' at 41 to start his own agency. He discusses the challenges of targeting Fortune 500 brands, leveraging his network to secure early clients, and building both his agency and personal brand through social media. Eric also opens up about the mental challenges of entrepreneurship and his unique recruitment strategies that help him attract talent in a competitive market.

Elyse Lupin, president and founder of Elysium Marketing Group, shares her journey from a solo entrepreneur to leading a thriving agency specializing in food and franchise marketing. She discusses the paradox of growth: challenges intensify as you scale, emphasizing the importance of client and team retention as true indicators of success. Elyse highlights the value of celebrating small wins and fostering a strong company culture as strategic advantages. She also reflects on the significance of letting go of control and empowering her team to drive success.

Michael Davern, CEO of Incept and an early adopter of AI in digital marketing, shares his insights on thriving in an AI-driven landscape. He discusses why 'AI-enhanced' agencies, which blend technology with human connection, outperform 'AI-first' models. Michael emphasizes the importance of leadership and relationships in maintaining long client lifecycles. He advises agency owners to embrace innovation, actively foster team creativity, and navigate the noise created by poor tools in the market. A strong push for human-first strategies is at the core of his approach.

Chase Clymer, co-founder of Electric Eye and Shopify expert, shares his journey from musician to agency leader focused on e-commerce growth. He explains how he transformed podcasting into a powerful lead generation tool by booking ideal clients as guests. Chase emphasizes the importance of strategic partnerships, consistency in content production, and creating authentic conversations that resonate. Learn how staying connected with a niche audience can drive steady leads for agency growth.

Ben Childs, President of Digital Reach, delves into the future of agencies amidst AI advancements. He argues that soft skills and trust are key to success, emphasizing that communication and relationship-building outshine technical prowess. Ben discusses the evolving agency landscape and how in-person interactions can foster deeper connections. He also highlights the importance of proactive problem-solving and adapting to client needs, ensuring that agencies remain valuable partners in a rapidly changing market.

Brandon Rost, Founder and CEO of be Marketing, shares his journey of transforming a solo venture into a multimillion-dollar agency. He explores the complexities of building a leadership team, emphasizing that promotions without clear strategies can lead to chaos. Brandon reveals the important financial KPIs he tracks and discusses the balance between skilled and managerial roles. He highlights the necessity of robust sales systems and the power of relationships and knowledge in today's competitive landscape.

McKay Salisbury, founder and CEO of FiveStar Commerce, shares insights from his eCommerce agency that manages major retail accounts. He discusses innovative hiring strategies for fresh graduates, emphasizing the importance of in-person culture to boost team retention. McKay reveals his approach to creating clear career paths that foster ambitious young talent and discusses the dual advancement tracks—skills and managerial—that ensure comprehensive training. His insights into building a supportive environment highlight how employee growth can align with agency success.