CMO Confidential

"Marketing at Meta - The View From the Eye of the Storm"A CMO Confidential Interview with Alex Schultz, the Meta CMO and VP of Analytics, and author of Click Here: The Art & Science of Digital Marketing and Advertising. Alex details why he believes in decentralized analytics and the importance of focusing on core results vs vanity metrics, why AI is a "threshold technology", and why and how the company transitioned to Meta. Key topics include: the barbell distribution of AI competency (native users and very senior experienced leaders); why he believes so strongly in "incrementality measurements"; how he and his team handle the emotional impact of being in the center of political discussions and; why marketers should be thinking about 2027. Tune in to hear a story about affiliate marketing incentives gone wrong and the eBay/Google "Tea Party" incident.What’s it really like to be CMO at one of the most scrutinized companies in the world?In this episode of **CMO Confidential**, host Mike Linton sits down with **Alex Schultz**, CMO and VP of Analytics at Meta, for a wide-ranging, unfiltered conversation on marketing leadership inside the eye of the storm. Alex breaks down how Meta structures marketing and analytics at global scale, why marketing must be centralized while analytics should not, and what most companies get wrong about “one source of truth.”The conversation goes deep on navigating nonstop political and cultural pressure, shortening negative news cycles, and keeping teams emotionally grounded when the brand is under fire. Alex also shares some of the clearest executive thinking we’ve heard on AI as a *threshold technology* — where it truly creates leverage, where humans must stay in the loop, and how CMOs should assess AI talent today.The episode closes with inside stories from the Facebook-to-Meta rebrand, hard-earned lessons from eBay on incrementality measurement, and practical advice for preparing your organization for 2027 and beyond.If you’re a CMO, CEO, founder, or senior operator responsible for growth, measurement, and brand under pressure — this is required listening.New episodes of **CMO Confidential** drop every Tuesday.---## Chapters & Timestamps00:00 – Welcome to CMO Confidential00:01 – Alex Schultz’s role: CMO & VP of Analytics at Meta00:03 – Why marketing is centralized but analytics are decentralized00:06 – “One source of truth” and killing vanity metrics00:09 – Marketing while constantly in the global spotlight00:11 – Managing crisis cycles, truth, and comms alignment00:12 – AI’s real impact on marketing productivity00:15 – AI as a threshold technology (precision vs. recall)00:17 – How AI is reshaping analytics, creative, and teams00:18 – Hiring for AI: the barbell talent distribution00:22 – Preparing for 2027: information flow and AI philosophy00:25 – How B2B marketing is (and isn’t) changing00:28 – Inside the Facebook → Meta rebrand00:32 – Lessons from eBay: incrementality over last-click00:36 – What downturns reveal about leadership talent00:37 – Why Alex wrote his book on digital marketing00:40 – Affiliate marketing, incentives, and unintended consequences00:43 – Final advice for CMOs and marketers---CMO Confidential, Alex Schultz, Meta marketing, Facebook Meta rebrand, marketing leadership, CMO podcast, executive marketing, analytics strategy, marketing analytics, AI in marketing, artificial intelligence marketing, incrementality measurement, digital marketing strategy, B2B marketing, growth marketing, brand under pressure, crisis communications, marketing measurement, performance marketing, last click attribution, marketing org design, marketing podcast--See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential Interview with DJ Patil, Great Point Ventures investor and former U.S. Chief Data Scientist in the Obama Administration. DJ discusses why AI adoption is "lumpy" like unbaked cake mix, the difference between large models and focused applications, and why consultants are probably not the best way to make progress. Key topics include: Maslow's Hierarchy of AI with power, data and water as the foundation; a timeline juxtaposition of AI evolution versus culture and policy change; and his belief that marketers have a unique position to add "human connectivity" in to the mix. Tune in to hear a view on AI and health care as well as how Waymo almost ruined a date night. What does AI adoption *really* look like inside large organizations—and why does it feel so uneven?In this episode of **CMO Confidential**, host **Mike Linton** sits down with **DJ Patil**—former U.S. Chief Data Scientist, AI leader at eBay and LinkedIn, and longtime advisor and investor—for a clear-eyed update from the front lines of AI.DJ explains why AI progress feels “lumpy,” why culture—not technology—is the biggest blocker to ROI, and what boards, CEOs, and CMOs must do now to avoid falling behind. From autonomous warfare and small models to Wall Street hype cycles, job displacement, and what AI means for the future of marketing, this is a practical, executive-level conversation about what’s real, what’s noise, and what comes next.If you lead a company, manage a brand, sit on a board, or are building a career in marketing, this episode will recalibrate how you think about AI adoption, investment, and organizational change.🎧 New episodes of **CMO Confidential** drop every Tuesday.--- Chapters / Timestamps00:00 – Welcome to CMO Confidential00:32 – Introducing DJ Patil and today’s AI focus01:26 – Where are we really on the AI adoption curve?02:54 – Why AI progress feels “lumpy” across industries03:35 – AI fluency vs. AI-native talent05:22 – AI in education: banning it vs. embracing it05:57 – AI on the battlefield: Ukraine, drones, and autonomy07:50 – Big models vs. small models and open source AI08:12 – The AI investment landscape and industry chaos09:12 – AI breakthroughs in math and problem-solving10:52 – Where AI is actually delivering value today11:50 – ROI, hype cycles, and Amara’s Law13:46 – When AI savings really show up on the balance sheet15:17 – Why culture is the biggest blocker to AI success16:03 – AI speed vs. slow-moving organizations and policy18:13 – Why executives can’t delegate AI leadership19:56 – The limits of traditional consulting for AI22:41 – Job cuts, automation, and what AI is really replacing25:48 – Why AI isn’t “ready” yet—but is getting close26:32 – AI as the biggest prize in the history of capitalism27:18 – Where DJ Patil is investing in AI29:00 – AI opportunities in healthcare and government30:27 – What AI means for marketers and marketing careers34:10 – A Waymo story: the promise and imperfections of AI35:12 – Final thoughts and where to find more episodes---CMO Confidential, DJ Patil, Mike Linton, AI adoption, artificial intelligence strategy, AI for executives, AI and marketing, AI ROI, AI investment, AI leadership, AI culture, future of marketing, chief marketing officer, CMO podcast, executive podcast, boardroom strategy, AI transformation, AI jobs, AI and automation, AI in healthcare, AI governance, enterprise AI, AI fluency, AI native, tech leadership, data science, digital transformationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential interview with Dick Satterfield, the founder of Satterfield Rezenbrink Search and former P&G sales leader. Dick discusses career management under the framework of "successful and happy" and outlines why you should constantly be thinking about and evaluating your career. Key topics include why career progression is defined as continuous learning and getting promoted, tips for networking, when is too early or too late to leave, and why counter offers almost always fail . Listen in to hear why you should view the "next job" as a stepping stone versus the perfect landing. Dick Satterfield, veteran executive recruiter and former P&G sales leader, breaks down when to leave, how to create real options, and what it takes to land (and succeed in) your next role. We cover the “successful and happy” framework, real vs. faux promotions, how to run a stealth search while employed, the truth about counteroffers, and why marketers must present as business leaders driving revenue and efficiency. Practical, no-nonsense advice for CMOs, aspiring CMOs, and any exec managing a high-stakes career. Chapters00:00 Intro: CMO Confidential + today’s topic00:00:43 Meet Dick Satterfield + why this conversation matters00:02:11 Framework: “Are you successful and happy?”00:03:39 What recruiters really scan first: promotions and scope00:05:38 Real vs. “quasi-fake” promotions (one direct report ≠ management)00:05:59 Could I leave? Too early vs. too late; the commuting rule of 300:08:12 Knowing when your learning curve has flattened00:10:24 Would I leave? How to search while employed (and build leverage)00:12:25 Target list → warm intros → the right recruiters00:14:31 Time management for the search (30 minutes a day)00:15:14 If you’re in transition: process, momentum, and managing home life00:17:21 Offers: optimize for where you’re most likely to succeed00:19:31 Interview the company: decision speed and what success looks like00:21:00 Counteroffers: why ~85% don’t stick00:22:38 Negotiating severance (and when it actually gets set)00:24:00 Biggest career mistake: not managing your career like a project00:25:00 For marketers: be a business leader, not “just” marketing00:26:13 Practical closer: return recruiter calls—before you need them00:26:55 WrapTagsCMO Confidential,Mike Linton,Dick Satterfield,executive search,career management,career strategy,CMO career,marketing leadership,job search,career progression,promotions,scope of responsibility,learning curve,commuting rules,hybrid work,networking,warm introductions,recruiters,retained search,counteroffers,severance negotiation,compensation,offer negotiation,interview tips,decision rights,success metrics,marketing as investment,top line growth,cost efficiency,business leader,P&G,Procter & Gamble,board ready,executive transitions,VP marketing,chief marketing officer,senior leadership,career mistakes,practical adviceSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Kate Bullis and David Wiser, Managing Partners and Global Marketing Practice Leaders for ZRG Partners. Kate and David translate their extensive search experience to classify common mistakes into "movie themes" and share tips on how to recognize if you are directing or reading for a part in a disaster film. From "Play It Again, Sam," to "No, No, It's Really A CMO Role!" to "Death by Committee!" they describe the all-too-familiar plotlines and how to tear apart the hype from the facts. Hints: Look at the dashboard, listen to the questions and beware of the "Hands on the keyboard" role. Tune in to hear why companies should focus on outcomes versus qualifications and why you should always check your Zoom background. What are the five bad “movies” CEOs and boards keep remaking when they hire CMOs—and how do you avoid starring in one? Mike Linton sits down with ZRG Partners’ Kate Bullis and David Wiser to unpack 2025’s CMO market, why early-stage hiring should rebound, and how capital and IPO activity reset expectations from “profit at all costs” back to growth. They break down the most common failure modes—chasing a playbook, hiring an “orchestra,” titling a demand-gen job as “CMO,” forcing marketing to “stay in its lane,” and letting committees kill momentum—and the exact questions candidates and CEOs should ask to surface scope, KPIs, authority, and alignment.You’ll hear red flags like “hands-on keyboard,” why the KPI dashboard effectively *is* the job description, and how cross-functional interviews reveal whether a CMO will be a strategist or an order taker. David and Kate close with urgency discipline for searches and a three-year business-back plan for defining the role.CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, ZRG Partners, Kate Bullis, David Wiser, CMO hiring, marketing leadership, executive search, CEO, board of directors, hiring mistakes, KPI dashboard, hands-on-keyboard, demand generation, brand vs performance, org design, stay in your lane, death by committee, playbook vs framework, 2025 job market, private equity, IPOs, marketing strategy, B2B marketing, growth vs profitability---Chapters00:00 – Welcome & show setup01:08 – Meet Kate Bullis & David Wiser (ZRG Partners)01:32 – 2025 CMO job market outlook02:56 – Where hiring rebounds first (startups vs. public)04:24 – From profitability snapback to growth focus05:35 – Theme 1: “Play it again, Sam” (playbook thinking)06:48 – Frameworks over playbooks: why “fetch” fails08:16 – KPIs as the real scope: the dashboard test10:08 – Theme 2: “I want the orchestra” (do-it-all CMO)12:44 – Red flag: “hands-on keyboard” and checkbox hiring14:19 – Theme 3: “No, really, it’s a CMO role” (but it’s demand gen)15:31 – B2B trap: title inflation and scope mismatch18:25 – Measure what matters: aligning title, work, and KPIs19:00 – Theme 4: “Stay in your lane” (the Yes Center)20:20 – Sales/product-driven constraints and influence22:00 – Theme 5: “Death by committee” (misalignment & vetoes)23:18 – Fixing alignment: who decides and how25:26 – Why bad movies still get made: urgency and drift27:54 – The other mistake: lack of urgency in searches28:43 – Funniest recruiting moments (Zoom era)30:21 – Practical advice: define the next 3 years, then the role31:29 – Wrap and where to listenSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Tom Stein, the Chairman and founder of Stein and Jann Schwarz, Senior Director of Marketplace Innovation at LinkedIn and founder of Think tank, The B2B Institute, who join us to discuss the 2025 Brand-to- Demand Maturity and the B2B Buyability studies. Tom and Jann share results showing the need to integrate brand and performance marketing in an era when the marketing funnel has collapsed needs fundamental re-thinking and Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs) are still a key measure (in spite of data showing they've lost their usefulness). Tom and Jann explain why nearly all survey respondents acknowledge a problem but only 20% are taking action. Key topics include: why a good product or service are now "table stakes”; how buyer confidence, human connection and customer experience have become key Buyability differentiators; and the belief that B2B creative is way behind B2C on average. Tune in to hear why “demand-focused marketing" was one of the greatest brand misdirects of all time and a fabulous story of an alter boy accidentally dropping the Baby Jesus. The Truth Behind the Curtain in B2B: Brand + Demand, MQLs, and “Buyability” with Tom Stein & Jan SchwartzDescription:Mike Linton sits down with Tom Stein (Stein) and Jan Schwartz (LinkedIn’s B2B Institute) to unpack new ANA research on brand–demand maturity and a bold operating model they call “buyability.” They cover why 80% of marketers say integration matters but aren’t doing it, why MQLs are failing modern buying groups, how to financialize creative and brand, and what CEOs/boards should actually measure to accelerate revenue. Chapters:00:00 Intro & guest setup02:36 Why a brand–demand maturity study now05:36 The 80% integration gap07:17 Org design: why teams move slowly09:36 MQLs under fire (and better alternatives)10:45 Creative quality in B2B: reality check13:34 ServiceNow, Idris Elba, and distinctive assets15:01 The CEO/CFO/Board disconnect19:00 “Buyability” explained: becoming easier to buy22:12 Brand as a full-funnel commercial driver23:40 The funnel is broken; AI ups the stakes26:59 Playing offense: fewer, better buyer-group leads28:20 Financializing the case for change29:56 The budget stat that shocked everyone31:41 What to do now: category fame, trust, real metrics34:41 Funniest stories and practical parting advice37:35 Wrap & where to find more episodesTags:B2B marketing,brand and demand,buyability,MQL,pipeline velocity,CMO Confidential,Mike Linton,Tom Stein,Jan Schwartz,LinkedIn B2B Institute,ANA,B2B brand,B2B demand gen,marketing measurement,go to market,Salesforce,ServiceNow,Idris Elba,B2B creative,category fame,board metrics,CFO,CEO,CRO,sales alignment,MarTech,lead gen,buyer groups,brand strategy,revenue growthSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Dr. Joel Shapiro, Managerial Economics & Decision Sciences Professor at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern, formerly Varicent Chief Analytics Officer. Joel discusses his NFL study including why some teams handle injury better then others, the idea of finding variables which can't be seen by the naked eye, and his conclusion that resilience has a lot to do with planning, resource deployment and the foresight to think about potential problems. Key topics include: the importance of back-ups; the ability to find business problems that can be solved with data; and how to use data and AI to predict "bad stuff." Tune in to hear about the "percent cash wasted measure," and how Joel's class beat Las Vegas on predicting last year's NHL playoff teams.**What NFL Injury Data Teaches Business About Resilience — with Joel Shapiro (Kellogg)**Northwestern Kellogg’s Joel Shapiro returns to CMO Confidential to unpack a surprising finding: predicting player injury isn’t a “failed use case” — and the lessons translate directly to how leaders design resilient organizations. We cover the data model behind injury prediction, Joel’s “percent cash wasted” metric, the real effect of injuries on winning (including offense vs. defense), why backups matter, and how to build purposeful resilience across sales, supply chain, and leadership. Plus: a student project that beat Vegas and a fearless (and funny) Super Bowl take. Chapters00:00 Intro — Why this episode matters for executives01:10 Joel’s remit: turning data & AI into business outcomes03:19 Injury prediction isn’t a failed use case05:45 Why the NFL: clean injury data and an 11-year dataset07:32 What the model outputs: games likely to be missed08:51 “Percent Cash Wasted”: paying for injured players10:15 Do injuries really impact winning? The curve is flatter than you think12:19 Offense vs. defense: wasted cash effects aren’t equal13:47 Healthy one year, injured the next: who stays good?14:36 The lever that breaks teams: losing a highly paid QB15:25 Purposeful resilience vs. “toughing it out”16:34 Backups matter — translating roster depth to business18:29 If you can’t prevent every injury, recruit for availability19:17 Business translation: resilience in sales, supply chain, and leadership21:42 Treat resilience as strategy, not back-office insurance24:22 Which companies are structurally resilient (and why scale helps)24:49 Joel’s bold pick: the Bears’ weird start and a playful prediction25:36 Data, betting, and integrity — what changes as information improves27:25 Students vs. Vegas: NHL playoff models that won28:20 How much data it really takes (rows, columns, and what matters)29:54 Wrap and where to find more CMO ConfidentialTagsCMO Confidential, Mike Linton, Joel Shapiro, Northwestern Kellogg, data science, AI, predictive analytics, NFL injuries, sports analytics, resilience, business resilience, risk management, leadership, percent cash wasted, roster construction, backups, quarterback, offense vs defense, supply chain, sales teams, machine learning, predictive modeling, DraftKings, FanDuel, NHL, Kansas City Chiefs, Chicago Bears, C-suite, marketing leadership, podcast, YouTube chaptersSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Michael Treff, the CEO of Code and Theory joins us for our 150th Show to share observations on the major forces impacting the B2B space. Michael details how "empowered buyers" are forcing sellers to increase focus on customer value creation and transforming marketing and sales from "leads to information" which is also shifting spending to capital expense. Key topics include: why the next AI frontier is customer experience; the need for companies to have both a long and short-term AI plans; why budgeting won't get any easier and; the gap between the CX problems and CX actions. Tune in to hear why you need to have an "AI plan for your humans" and learn if you need " a personalized relationship with your mustard."CMO Confidential #150: Michael Treff on B2B’s Year-In-Review, What’s Next, and How AI Will Actually Drive Growth**B2B is being rebuilt from the core. Michael explains why budgets are shifting from media to infrastructure, how the funnel is being rewritten by agentic search, and where AI must move from efficiency to growth. We also cover the KPIs that matter, budgeting realism for 2026, and three things every CMO should know by the end of next year. Sponsored by Typeface—the agentic AI marketing platform helping brands turn one idea into thousands of on-brand experiences. Learn more: typeface.ai/cmo. **Chapters**00:00 Intro + show setup01:00 Sponsor: Typeface — agentic AI marketing, enterprise-grade & integrated02:00 Guest intro: Michael Treff, CEO of Code and Theory03:00 B2B landscape: investment shifts, changing journeys, disintermediation07:00 From MQLs to value: sales enablement and end-to-end outcomes10:00 Mid-roll: Typeface ARC agents & content lifecycle11:00 Why suites win: implementation and value realization after the sale15:00 AI phases: Wave 1 (efficiency) → Wave 2 (growth) pressures on agencies17:00 CX as the bridge: measure outcomes, not vanity metrics22:00 Roadmaps, humans, and culture—planning beyond point tools26:00 Budget reality check: deliberation, polarization, and trade-offs29:00 Personalization vs. business impact—what to fund and measure33:00 By end of 2026: know your human plan, AI maturity, and new journeys35:00 2026 prediction: the ROI vice tightens—agencies must be consultative36:00 Closing advice: “Interrogate everything yourself.”38:00 Wrap + where to find past episodes39:00 Sponsor close: Typeface—see how ASICS & Microsoft scale personalization**About our sponsor, Typeface** @typefaceai  is the first multimodal, agentic AI marketing platform that automates workflows from brief to launch, integrates with your MarTech stack, and delivers enterprise-grade security—named AI Company of the Year by Adweek and a TIME Best Invention. Learn more: typeface.ai/cmo. **Tags**B2B marketing, enterprise marketing, customer experience, AI marketing, agentic AI, marketing ROI, sales enablement, Code and Theory, Michael Treff, Mike Linton, CMO strategy, marketing budget, personalization, Martech, TypefaceSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Evan Wittenberg, a seasoned HR executive and Chief People Officer at VuMedi, delves into the evolving role of HR and its intricate connection to marketing. He discusses the heightened scrutiny both fields face and the importance of data in decision-making. Evan emphasizes the need for dedicated people partners in every function and explains how hybrid work impacts mentorship opportunities. He also shares valuable hiring signals and offers unique insights from his time at Saturday Night Live that highlight the importance of excelling in your current role.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Kip Knight, founder of CMO Coaches, former CMO of Taco Bell and H&R Block USPresident. Kip lays out the case for marketers to build their brands based on trust, authenticity and personal core principles along with an objective understanding of "what you are really famous for being able to accomplish." Key topics include: why executive presence matters; the combination of emotional IQ and curiosity; the need for resume "proof points;" and why role models matter. Tune in to hear networking tips, why you want to know what "they say about you when you aren't in the room" and the power of a handwritten thank you note. Kip Knight (Founder, CMO Coaches; former Taco Bell CMO & H&R Block US Retail President) joins Mike Linton to get practical about building a durable *personal brand* as a marketing leader. We cover a three-step framework (self-assessment - positioning - activation), executive presence (IQ + EQ + CQ), how to lead with truth during tough calls, and why handwritten notes still matter. Sponsored by Typeface — the agentic AI marketing platform that turns one idea into thousands of on-brand assets. Learn more: typeface.ai/cmo.**Key points**• Personal brands aren’t accidental: in today’s AI-accelerated market, being findable and consistent is table stakes for senior roles. • The framework: start with a rigorous self-assessment (360s, reviews, assessments), then define positioning around your true superpowers, and finally activate with proof points. • Be objective: ambition without a strategy and measurable evidence sets you up to fail; build real proof points before you sell your story. • Executive presence = IQ + EQ + CQ (curiosity). Lean into new tech (e.g., GenAI) and stay relentlessly curious. • Truth is better than spin in crises: define reality, be transparent, and your team will follow you through hard decisions (e.g., headcount cuts). • Culture is the stories told when you’re not in the room; leaders are “always on,” so model consistency and principle-led behavior. • CMOs as business integrators: convene IT, Legal, Finance, HR, and the CEO to make the right GenAI bets with clear success criteria. • Power move: send handwritten notes on high-quality stationery; the impact far exceeds email. **Chapters**00:00 Welcome + sponsor: Typeface — why brand still wins in the age of AI 03:00 Why your personal brand matters more than ever 06:00 Being findable & consistent in an AI world 07:00 The 3-part framework: self-assessment - positioning - activation 10:00 Doing an honest self-assessment (360s, reviews, Working Genius) 14:00 Turning strengths into positioning; knowing your kryptonite 16:00 Executive presence: IQ, EQ, and CQ (curiosity quotient) 20:00 Truth-telling vs. vulnerability during layoffs and tough calls 23:00 Role models, “always on” leadership, and culture as stories 29:00 CMOs as business integrators on GenAI — how to run the process 32:00 Networking that works: “How can I help you?”, warm intros, no ghosting 34:00 Elite habit: handwritten notes on great stationery (why it lands) 36:00 Wrap + where to find more CMO Confidential TagsCMO,marketing leadership,personal brand,executive presence,brand strategy,career development,marketing careers,AI in marketing,agentic AI,Typeface,leadership,coaching,CMO Coaches,Kip Knight,Mike Linton,GenAI,networking,culture,trust,authenticity,handwritten notes,frameworks,positioning,activation,EQ,CQ,P&L,growth,enterprise marketing,YouTube podcastSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Join former Starbucks Chief Digital Officer Adam Brotman and investor Andy Sack as they dive into the explosive growth of AI and its implications for business. They discuss why only 5% of companies are making significant strides with AI, the importance of using it daily, and the blockers hindering progress. Expect insightful predictions for 2026, including potential entries from tech giants and the risks of AI fraud highlighted by a staggering $20 million scam. Tune in for practical tips on integrating AI into your daily workflow!