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Summer Rewind: Responding to emergencies and disasters with the Canadian Red Cross – thinkenergy Podcast Episode 103  When a natural disaster strikes, your electricity is at risk. And Canada is no stranger to extreme weather. During these large-scale emergencies, a coordinated effort is needed to aid Canadians – and millions around the globe. Enter the Canadian Red Cross, a leader in providing disaster relief at home and aboard. In episode 103 of thinkenergy, we chat with Guy Lepage, a Disaster Management Volunteer with the organisation, to learn more about his role and what it's like having ‘boots on the ground’ during a disaster. Related links The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada  Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/  Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod #ThinkEnergy #HydroOttawa #EnergySolutions ____________________________________________________ Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Canada has experienced a number of natural disasters in the last number of years in 2022. There was a devastating May long weekend Derecho in Ontario, forest fires and floods in British Columbia. And of course, Hurricane Fiona on the East Coast, to name just a few. For those of us in the energy sector, we know that when disaster strikes, a stable supply of electricity is jeopardized. Electricity represents safety, shelter, sanitation, warmth, and clean water. As extreme weather and other large scale events occur around the world. A coordinated global reach is needed to provide aid to millions. There is one leading organization in particular that comes to mind when you think of disaster relief with the skills, resources and people to mobilize in almost any region of this world. I'm talking about the International Red Cross. When it was created back in 1863, the Red Cross the objective was to protect and assist victims of armed conflict. Of course, their work has expanded to many types of crises, including disasters caused by extreme weather events. In total, the Red Cross has a network of more than 80 million people across the world that they can draw on to help in times of need, many right here at home. So here's today's big question. As leaders in emergency preparedness, response and execution, what is it like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. Our guest on the show today is Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Gi has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. The Red Cross stands ready to help people before, during and after a disaster. As a member of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, the Canadian Red Cross is dedicated to helping people and communities in Canada and around the world in times of need, and supporting them in strengthening their resilience. Guy. Welcome to the show.   Guy Lepage  03:16 Thanks for having me.   Dan Seguin  03:17 Guy, perhaps you can start by telling us how long you've been with the Canadian Red Cross. And what inspired you to get involved?   Guy Lepage  03:27 You'll recall back in 2005, 17 years ago, Hurricane Katrina hit the Deep South and of course, that made headlines around the world and then was working for the provincial government at the time and the premier at the time. Dalton McGuinty was contacted by the Canadian Red Cross asking him to send 100 members of the Ontario Public Service to help the American Red Cross. So I put my hand up as a former journalist to help as a communications or a public affairs officer. And I went to the deep south for three weeks as a public affairs officer and I got to see up close what the Red Cross does, whether it's American Canadian, choose your country, we all work under the same guidelines and rules. So you know, I saw how it was done. And so I came home and I said, Okay, I've been to the Deep South, what can I do in my own backyard. And that's when I started thinking about all the courses and the training I should have had before we're going to the Deep South. And it was just an amazing experience and the start of my Red Cross career. Now I can tell you that before I worked for the province, I worked as a journalist in Ottawa for the Ottawa Citizen and CJ wait gender Max Keeping for the your listeners who remember Max, and they covered disasters from house fires to train derailments to, you know, high winds, tornadoes, and there was one case in Gatineau. Across the river, there was cottage country, where high winds came through and pushed a canoe literally through the walls of a cottage. And it was something out of a movie and I said wow, that's amazing. So when I saw that kind of devastation in person in the Deep South. That's, that's okay. This is where I want to be. And giving my time my efforts as a volunteer is for people who go through this kind of disaster.   Dan Seguin  05:13 Okay. Now, what are some of the roles you've had with the organization?   Guy Lepage  05:20 I guess the main role has been as a personal disaster assistance team member, and I will PDA for short, that's when we respond to house fires. So you know, God forbid you and your family, there's a fire at your home at two o'clock in the morning, two volunteers will show up at your home and make sure you've got a place this day and give you gift cards. So you can buy food and clothing if need be. So I've done that the entire time, my 17 years with the Red Cross. I've also been a site manager, when there is a disaster. For example, in the Ottawa area after the tornadoes a few years ago, there were different shelters set up information centers. So someone had to run those centers to make sure they were properly run and offered the services that were needed. So I've been a site manager. And basically, it's other duties as assigned. The Red Cross is very good at training us to do all kinds of things in emergency management.   Dan Seguin  06:16 Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Now, Curiosity is getting the best of me. Talk to me about the role that was the most difficult. And what was the most memorable?   Guy Lepage  06:30 Wow, that's kind of like asking a parent which is their favorite child. I mean, I've been on 18 deployments in Canada, the US, Haiti and in Europe. So it's really difficult to choose. But I'll give you an example. This past summer, I was in Budapest, Hungary working with the International Federation of the Red Cross. On the Ukraine relief operation, we all know what's happening overseas. And my role was a public affairs officer or media relations officer to tell people in the media what was going on, from a red cross point of view. And we've held a news conference. And we told people inflation is making life difficult. But more importantly, winter is coming. Even though this was August, in the middle of a heatwave, winter is coming. And it's going to be a major issue. And now, if you look at the stories out of Ukraine, that is a major issue because of hydro shortages, natural gas shortages, and so on. So that's a memorable one because as a volunteer, I was part of a major relief operation, you know, who would have thought there'd be that kind of conflict anywhere in the world in this day and age, closer to home. A couple of years ago, there was a COVID lock down into Szechwan First Nation in northern Ontario, a fly in community. So there was a COVID outbreak, the entire community was locked down. So even the local store where they buy their groceries was locked down. So I was up there, the team of 12, where groceries, supplies were flown in, they were taken to the local hockey arena, where we put together boxes of essentials like milk, butter, bread, canned goods, dry goods, cereals, and so on. And we assembled boxes of these goods, and they were delivered, the boxes were delivered by the military, they were the rangers to every household in the community. So people could feed themselves. I mean, talk about basic, bare basic service that we all need. So that was a challenge because we were in the middle of a cult COVID lockdown community. So we had to really, really respect the rules of social distancing, sanitizing wearing a mask, we were goggles, we weren't gloves. And we stayed in a church because there was no hotel infrastructure, and we had to stay in a church. We slept in, and top tents on the floor of the church. And whenever that was the only time I could be without wearing a mask. And as soon as you step out of your tent, you have to wear a mask just because we have to protect ourselves. So that's memorable. But I guess the most memorable cases for me then, is when I show up at two o'clock in the morning, and I'm dealing with a family or an individual who's just been burnt out of their home, their apartment, and they've lost everything that they own. And they just have no idea how they're going to cope with this. Because first responders after firefighters, we're the next people they see wearing the red cross vest, and I'm there to tell them, are you okay? We're going to get you a place to live, a safe place to stay. We're going to give you gift cards for clothing, gift cards for food to help you get back on your feet. And people are so thankful. And I tell you the hugs. And I know it sounds strange to say this in a COVID environment. But the hugs I've received over the years from people who are so, so grateful. It makes it all worthwhile. Whether it's getting up at two o'clock in the morning or responding at two o'clock in the afternoon. People are so appreciative, so those are the big memories I take away from this.   Dan Seguin  10:05 Okay. I read that you've assisted in some big operations all over the world. Can you tell us what some of those were, and perhaps your biggest takeaway from those experiences?   Guy Lepage  10:21 I've been very fortunate then and that I've responded to emergencies across Canada. I've been to three hurricanes in the US, Hurricane Sandy in New York, Hurricane Michael in Florida. And Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Well, the Deep South. I went to Haiti in 2010. And as I mentioned, I went to Europe this past summer. So my biggest takeaway is the resilience of people who are affected by a disaster. Um, yes, the initial shock is overwhelming. I mean, no one ever expects to lose their home to a hurricane or a forest fire or an earthquake or whatever. No one sits around the kitchen table and says, Hey, what will we do if we lose our home. So we arrived, wearing the red cross vest to work with local, other responders and governments and we came to the rescue to help them rebuild their lives. So the resilience of people when they get over the shock, they are so appreciative of the work that we are offering the relief we're offering, rather, and they start immediately to rebuild their lives, where am I and my family going to stay? How we're going to feed ourselves and clothe ourselves and get back to normal. So that is, that is the one constant that I can share with you. And the other is, of course, how they are so appreciative. So it doesn't matter where you're from, it is where it happens. They are so happy that the Red Cross and other responders are there to help.   Dan Seguin  11:51 Okay, deep. I'm probably going to embarrass you just a little bit. In November 2021, you received the Order of the Red Cross, considered the Canadian Red Cross highest award, it recognizes extraordinary people who have provided outstanding services at home and abroad. Can you tell us what your service and that honor has meant to you?   Guy Lepage  12:21 Other than my wedding day, and the birth of my children, it's the highest honor of my life, because to be recognized, to do something that I enjoy, and something that I get a whole lot more out of, than what I put in, was just a complete shock. It was emotional, it was overwhelming. I mean, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. So I don't mind telling you that I cried, it was so overwhelming. And, you know, most, I'd say all volunteers with the Red Cross and even outside of the organization, don't do this for the accolades. We do it because we like to volunteer, we like to help people in a time of crisis. And in my case, because I've been doing this for 17 years, I enjoy it so much, I will keep doing it as long as I can. And as I've just mentioned, I get a whole lot more out of it than what I put in. Let me put that into context. Yes, it's a lot of hard work, I deploy for two weeks, three weeks a month, I'm away from my family, my friends, I'm out of my comfort zone, long, stressful days. But in return, I work with other like minded volunteers from around the world. I learned from them, I help people in a time of need. And I tell the new volunteers that I train in my backyard, that you will get warm and fuzzies when you help people. Now by that, you know, we've all helped people in a time in our lives. And if you help someone move a friend of yours, having a bad day and try to console them either on the phone or in person, you know, you feel good about yourself, because you've helped someone you've done something for someone else, you know, because you want to not because you have to or you get paid or anything like that. So I've had the opportunity to do that on a bigger scale. So I've had a ton of warm and fuzzies in my career. All this to say that the Order of the Red Cross was just unexpected, but an incredible, incredible honor. Very good. Very good.   Dan Seguin  14:20 I think it's fair to say that the Red Cross is synonymous with disaster relief. For those that don't know, can you highlight how the Canadian Red Cross gets activated in communities?   Guy Lepage  14:33 That's a very good question. Because every time I go out, regardless of if it's a local fire or something big, you know, people say wow, you know, how do you guys do it? We didn't call or you know, we didn't know you guys did this. Most people need to know that we don't just show up on our own. We work with the local municipality, the local government, provincial federal, depending on where the disaster is. We are invited to assist. You may already know that in Ontario, most municipalities by law have to have an emergency management plan in place, which means when there is a need for a shelter, they have designated a school or a community center or even a church as to where the Red Cross and other organizations can do their thing. So we work with all levels of government and local municipalities, other first responders just to deliver the emergency aid that's needed at the time. Now, this could be an emergency lodging shelter, as I said, in a community center, for example, we could set up a reception center where people can get information, they can get gift cards, personal services, or reunite with their families. We offer a wide variety of services. But again, I want to stress that we are invited by the local municipality or level of government that needs assistance, and then we come to the rescue.   Dan Seguin  15:55 Okay. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had 100 year floods, tornadoes, a Derecho, heat waves, and multiple wind and ice storms. A lot of these events result in lengthy power outages. I know the Canadian Red Cross has been involved with boots on the ground for some of our emergencies here in the nation's capital. What does a typical operation look like?   Guy Lepage  16:26 Every disaster is different. So the first thing that we do is first boots on the ground, work with local governments to assess how bad is the damage caused by, as you mentioned, ice storm, a windstorm, heat waves, tornadoes, and so on. And then we call in the volunteers, the staff, you know, the personnel and the supplies needed to meet the demand. That is the first thing because if you don't know how bad things are, you can't respond appropriately. Now, once we determine what's needed, then we bring in the troops and we bring in the gear and we bring in the gift cards that we need to meet the demand. For example, after the tornado in Ottawa, back in 2018, I was deployed to Gatineau to work at one of the shelters that was set up there where people were staying, and we're also showing up to be assessed for gift cards and so on. So by the time I arrived, the people who had done the advance work knew how many people were needed to work at the shelter. I was one of the site managers, and how many volunteers were needed to meet the demand at the time. So that is the key. How does the operation work? We assess then we bring in what's the personnel and the supplies that are needed to meet the demand.   Dan Seguin 17:44 Okay. Now, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what are some of the ways the Red Cross team helps residents during a crisis?   Guy Lepage  17:55 That's a very good question. We help in a number of ways. The first one would be an emergency shelter, if people have been burned out of their homes, or they just can't go home for whatever reason. And they don't have the funds to go to hotels or they're no hotels available. or for whatever reason, they just have nowhere else to go, they can come to the shelter which can be in a school in a church and a community center. We will set up cots with Red Cross blankets, so people have a place to stay. We set them up to have an area for single men, an area for single women, an area for families, an area for families with family members who need assistance, you know, wheelchairs, that kind of thing. We also set up reception centers where people can show up to get information, they can show up to get gift cards, or just have a shoulder to cry on. We have people who are trained to deal with the psychological impact that disasters have on people. And I can tell you that is as important as giving people a place to stay and gift cards to eat food and clothing. Because it is such a shock. And some people have difficulty dealing with it and they need specialized care. We will distribute funds through gift cards, as I mentioned, and will provide emergency items. For example, hygiene kits, you know, you've lost everything in your home, you don't have your toothpaste, your toothbrush, you don't have your shampoo, you don't have the basics of life that we all come to depend on. We will supply those kinds of things as well. So we are there to help people get back on their feet. And we do the best we can and I think we do a pretty good job. We're always learning to, you know, to get better. But I believe having been around as long as I have. Most of the time things work really, really well.   Dan Seguin  19:43 Now Guy, I read each year the Canadian Red Cross helps more than 100,000 people in Canada. How do people volunteer? What kind of roles are there? And is there a minimum time commitment   Guy Lepage  19:59 There are several ways for people to get involved. The first is emergency management, which is what we've been talking about, and the area I focus on. That's to help people impacted by small or large disasters and emergencies. Now, we're always also looking for Meals on Wheels, delivery drivers, you know, people I think, are familiar with Meals on Wheels. You deliver, you know, hot, nutritious meals to members of the community who are unable to prepare their own food. And, you know, this allows them to stay in their homes for a longer period of time, we have a program called friendly calls, this is where trained Red Cross volunteers or staff members, they talk with adults who are feeling isolated or lonely, for some reason, you know, they've got limited social or family connections, and you know, who feel that they could benefit from having a more social interaction. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, there are a lot of people who were on their own, they couldn't go visit their families. And if you're living by yourself, and you've got no one to talk to, it can have a very negative impact on your well being. So this friendly calls program, you know, someone will pick up the call and say, Hey, Daniel, how you doing? Let's talk and talk about your family, talk about the weather, talking about whatever, just to have a social connection, so you're not by yourself. And we're also looking for transportation drivers, you know, to get people, elderly or disabled people in the community who are unable to use public transportation or other private means. So there are many ways to get involved in the redcross.ca has a lot of information about that. And every program is different. And as far as your minimum commitment, you know, for example, here in Durham Region, and I'm sure it's the same in the Ottawa area. My disaster management volunteers have to fill out their availability for 32 hours a month, and you say, Wow, that sounds like a lot. No, it's not because you're not going to be out and about doing 32 hours worth of work. You're just available for 32 hours a month. And if there isn't, if there's no fire, or no emergency, you don't do anything. Okay, so every program is different. But I want to make the stress the point, again, Daniel, that you'll feel so good about the amount of time that you donate to the organization, whether it's emergency management or as Meals on Wheels, delivery, driver friendly calls, however you choose to get involved, you will feel so good about donating your time and your expertise, that the four hours, 10 hours, whatever the number of hours you volunteered for, will make you feel so good.   Dan Seguin  22:39 Okay, follow up question here. Are you seeing an increase in the need for volunteers? And if so, why?   Guy Lepage  22:47 There are many reasons why there's an increase in the need for volunteers. You know, we've all talked about climate change, and how that that's increased the number of weather related disasters and you look at British Columbia with the flooding, fall of 2021, the forest fires. Those are just a couple of major incidents in Canada and around the world. When it was in Europe this summer, there were massive forest fires all across Europe with an incredibly hot and dry summer that was happening over there. So the more disasters happen, we need more volunteers to step up and deliver the services that we need to deliver. You know, you look at Manitoba flooding, British Columbia flooding I just mentioned mentioned earlier, every spring, they flood out in that community, and they're evacuated to other communities in northern Ontario, where they're living in hotels, until the water recedes, and then they go home. So I've responded to Timmins Ontario, for example, where I was a site manager, making sure that the tuck shops that we operated in hotels were fully stocked where people could get their deodorant, their diapers, their baby food, whatever, why they lived at the hotel. So we are always looking for new people because things happen. And you know, we've helped 9000 people this year and provided over $300 million in recovery funding across the country. I doubt very much that amount is going to go down in 2023. That's just the reality. One more example I can give you. Hurricane Fiona hit the Maritimes on September 24. I was in Nova Scotia in November. And we were still giving out $500 gift cards to people affected by the storm. Two months later. We've helped in the Maritimes. We've provided 5700 emergency items to people. And we've had 520 people, volunteers and staff respond, you know from across the country. We've had seven 6000 conversations with people who needed to talk to someone about hey, I'm having some real psychological issues here, this is having a major impact on my mental well being. So you know, 45 Oh sorry 45 reception centers were set up across the Maritimes. So that's just with one storm, one disaster. So, you know, we've got to be ready to respond to the next disaster which will happen, of course, with a warning or with a little warning. So that's why we are always looking for new people.   Dan Seguin  25:24 Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters, I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters, what is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?   Guy Lepage  25:47 House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times as people leave stuff on the stove, on attended, it spreads, fire starts and spreads, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives and but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assist the family to make sure they have lodging they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And then we're an emergency service. So after three days, and people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can't do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we will give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any any kind of disaster and, and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building is evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter and a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.   Guy Lepage  28:00 Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes,   Guy Lepage  28:13 I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you know, leave something unattended, and, and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where there were indeed mum and dad and three kids living in an apartment. And one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out get out. So we responded, they went to some friends, a friend's location too. So we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has soot on her face caused by the fire. And she starts crying and the teardrops are rolling down her cheeks through statements and I'll always remember that image because she was crying a) because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis. We will of course, but if you can prevent it that's even better.   Dan Seguin  29:52 This next one is important to many of our listeners. Often we feel powerless during an emergency, particularly when we lose electricity for an extended period of time. What are your recommendations on how people can prepare for emergencies? Is three days still the golden rule to follow?   Guy Lepage  30:15 Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours three days from now, from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire, whatever the situation, can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bays, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water. And we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and cook two liters. To wash and bait. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener, have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio. So you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning, I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight, there was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, you know, last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition, I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half, what am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication, enough pet food and enough water, enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.   Dan Seguin  32:55 Okay, Guy, are there special considerations for seniors, or other vulnerable groups that we should be aware of?   Guy Lepage  33:05 Medication is the most important one, because I'm generalizing here, of course, but more seniors that need medication than younger adults. But even anybody can need medication. So you've got to ensure you have enough medication on hand at all times. You know, certainly for three days in case you cannot get out for whatever reason. I mean, if a senior is living on his or her own, and runs out of medication, and in a family member who normally takes care of them can't make it, that is a major problem. So you have to plan for every scenario.   Dan Seguin  33:42 Now, besides emergency response, what other programs does the Canadian Red Cross provide that people might not be aware of?   Guy Lepage 33:51 There are several programs and everything I'm going to share with you is available on the redcross.ca first aid and CPR courses. And you know, we all know we should have this course. I've taken it because I have to. I'm a Red Cross volunteer. But you know, you hear oh, yeah, I'll get to that one day. And then you have a family member who has a heart attack or needs, you know, cuts themselves badly. How do we stop the bleeding? That kind of thing. So having a first aid and CPR course under your belt is highly recommended. Transportation: we offer transportation services for those in need that mentioned you know, elderly and disabled people in the community who can't use public transportation. You know, we'll keep people connected in their community by providing this kind of affordable transportation, whether it's medical appointments, even social gatherings or to go shopping, you know, that's another service that we provide meals on wheels. We need drivers to make sure those meals get to the people that need them. This helps people stay in their homes by making sure they eat a healthy diet. They have a healthy diet. We have a mobile food bank, and this service delivers food to persons who are unable to access food banks due to omitted or temporary disabilities, the friendly calls program, that's when you know, someone calls people who live by themselves and who can get lonely. We heard all kinds of stories during the pandemic, where people, because of pandemic rules, couldn't go out and visit friends and family. So this friendly calls program really helps people connect with those who just can't get out of their homes and are lonely. And it's really does make a huge difference. So, like I said, all kinds of different services for different interests and all the details are@redcross.ca.   Dan Seguin  35:34 Okay, finally, with everything you've experienced, and witnessed, what are you grateful for?   Guy Lepage  35:44 I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful for my family. And I'm grateful for the experience that I've had with the Red Cross, because it's taught me many things. But the most important thing is to not sweat the small stuff, when I get back from a deployment where people have lost everything they have. And they've got to start from scratch and go through a very stressful time. And then I'm standing in a coffee shop lineup. And I hear people complain about the service or the coffee is too hot, or they got my order wrong or whatever. I just shake my head and said, Come on, guys, you know, first world problems. I'm grateful for everything that I have. And I'm grateful for the opportunities I've been given to help people in time of crisis.   Dan Seguin  36:28 Guy, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?   Guy Lepage  36:35 K, I'm ready.   Dan Seguin  36:36 Okay, cool.   Dan Seguin  36:37 Now, what are you reading right now?   Guy Lepage  36:40 I'm a big Stephen King fan. And I'm reading a book called If It Bleeds. I'm behind on my Stephen King reading, because I know there's another one that's been released, and I'm hoping one of my family members will give it to me for Christmas.   Dan Seguin  36:54 Okay. What would be the name of your boat? If you had one? Or maybe have?   Guy Lepage  37:01 No, I doubt it would either be Val after my mother, or Jane after my wife.   Dan Seguin  37:06 Now, who is someone that you admire?   Guy Lepage  37:09 My mom and my wife! They the two most important people in my life. Who teach me teach me so much. My mother who raised me, of course, and my lovely bride who, you know, married 32 years and is still a source of inspiration and my biggest fan.   Dan Seguin  37:26 Okay, moving on here. Guy, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Guy Lepage  37:34 Oh, wow. I have to say, the resilience of people go through a crisis. I mean, it's, it's so inspiring that people have been knocked down, but they're the get up and shake themselves off and say, Okay, let's start rebuilding our lives. So I think that's, that's magical in its own right.   Dan Seguin  37:53 Okay. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Guy Lepage  38:01 I think initially it was the stress - the underlying stress. And when you think back to 2020, when there was no, no cure, no vaccine. And we are all literally stuck in our homes totally go out to the grocery store and other emergencies. Thoughts that that was difficult to deal with. Now unfortunate that I deal with stress as a volunteer and when in through work. That was, I think, the biggest challenge.   Dan Seguin  38:27 Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie? What are you watching right now?   Guy Lepage  38:36 I'm watching Ryan Reynolds, Canadian actor, as you may know, has his bottom soccer team or English football team over in Wales. And they've done a documentary on that really enjoying that. I'm rewatching Ted Lasso because the World Cup and soccer and football. I mean, I enjoyed it. First time around, and I'm enjoying it now. Anything that makes me laugh, I'm all for.   Dan Seguin  39:02 Well, Guy, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how should they connect?   Guy Lepage  39:15 redcross.ca has all the information that we've talked about, about the services we provide during a disaster following a disaster and even before a disaster. So redcross.ca is definitely the place to go for that kind of information.   Dan Seguin  39:30 Okay, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Guy Lepage  39:37 Thank you so much for having me. It has been a blast. Really enjoy sharing my adventures. I truly am a very lucky man to be able to do this. And as I said, share my adventures and thank you for having me, Dan.   Dan Seguin  39:50 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

To address climate change, we must be united, working together towards a common goal. But differing perspectives have created a complex and polarized debate: renewable energy versus fossil fuel versus nuclear power. These discussions require an open mind and constructive dialogue to find solutions that work for all stakeholders. In thinkenergy episode 106, Dr. Monica Gattinger, li, unpacks how we can build a stronger way forward for Canada – together. Related links Positive Energy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/positive-energy  Positive Energy, Twitter: https://twitter.com/uOttawa_Energy  The Institute for Science, Society and Policy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/issp  The Institute for Science, Society and Policy, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-science-society-and-policy/  Monica Gattinger, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monica-gattinger-748a6a42/  Monica Gattinger, Twitter: https://twitter.com/MonicaGattinger To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets   ------------------------------ Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry,   Dan Seguin  00:28 Everyone, welcome back. Energy and climate change are important topics that have been increasingly discussed in recent years due to the significant impact they have on the environment, the economy, and society as a whole. The effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels, increased frequency of extreme weather events, and loss of biodiversity are widely recognized by the scientific community. However, there are different views on the best ways to address these issues, particularly in terms of energy policy, and the way we live, work, consume and travel. While some advocate for the transition to renewable energy sources, others still argue for the continued use of fossil fuels or the development of other technologies such as nuclear energy.   Dan Seguin  01:27 These differing perspectives have created a complex and often polarized debate. It is important to approach these discussions with an open mind, consider the evidence and engage in constructive dialogue to find common ground and solutions that work for all stakeholders. We've often heard that working together and respecting different opinions are essential for effective collaboration and innovation. For climate change, it's more important than ever, that we come together to work towards a common goal. So here is today's big question. When it comes to energy, and climate, are we able to consider diverse perspectives so we can identify blind spots, and challenge assumptions that will ultimately lead to a stronger way forward for Canada. Today, my special guest is Dr. Monica Gattinger. She's the director of the Institute for Science, Society and Policy. She's a full professor at the School of Political Studies and founder Chair of Positive Energy at the University of Ottawa. Monica, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners a bit about yourself, and how the positive energy program that you found it at the University of Ottawa came to be?   Monica Gattinger  02:55 Thanks, happy to. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa. And I've been a student of energy, Dan it kind of pains me to say it, for but going on three decades now. And I guess about maybe 10 years ago or so around 2014-2015, you might remember at that time, there was a lot of contentiousness in the energy sector, particularly around pipeline development. And I think, you know, I felt a certain frustration that I'd go to energy conferences, and we'd all kind of get concerned about this. And, you know, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air, but what was happening, and then walk away, come back at the next conference to do the same thing. So the idea that I had was to create an initiative that would convene leaders who were concerned about these issues of public confidence and energy decision making, convening them together to try to identify what some of the key challenges are. And then I would undertake a research team, some solution focused, applied academic research to actually feed that process on an ongoing basis. So it's, you know, not just conferences, we walk away conferences, we walk away, it's, let's put in place a process to actually excuse me to actually get to some solution seeking on the challenges.   Dan Seguin  04:11 Okay, now, I have to ask you, because I love the name, given how polarizing energy has been for a number of years now, is the name meant to have a double meaning?   Monica Gattinger  04:20 Yes, it is. You are exactly right. That was you know, at the time when we created that name, that was precisely what we were trying to do, which is let's have some positive discussions about energy. I think the other thing I'd point to is, you know, for us, and it's always been the case that energy is all energy. So yes, at the time when we created positive energy, you know, what was in the news was big pipelines. But many of these issues and the challenges that we address with our work, apply to all energy sources, whether it's, you know, electricity, oil and gas at the upstream downstream, midstream sectors, so we really wanted to try to foster a pan Canadian approach on on the issues with energy as the core.   Dan Seguin  05:10 Monica, in one of your research reports, you acknowledge that division is eroding public trust and preventing progress. Why is that happening? Is it a lack of understanding around climate change and Canada's goals? Or is it more about the method or policies in place to get there?   Monica Gattinger  05:32 That's a super important question, Dan. And it's really at the heart of what we're aiming to do with positive energy. So if you look at where we're at now, on energy and climate, there's, you know, a tremendous global move towards net zero. And, of course, this is going to mean just a wholesale transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. So, you know, there are bound to be disagreements of division over how we go about doing that. And I think, you know, one of the crucial things about this energy transition in comparison to previous energy transitions, is that it's going to be largely policy driven, like, yes, there will be market developments, but policy is going to be playing such an important role. So to your question, you know, a lot of this is around the methods or the policies that we're going to be putting in place when it comes to energy transition. And I think our work really starts from the, you know, the very strong belief that if we don't have public confidence in government decision making over energy and climate, we're not going to be able to make ongoing forward progress on either energy or, or climate objectives. And for us, public confidence is, you know, the confidence of people, whether as citizens, as consumers as community members, but it's also the confidence of investors, right, we know that we're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy infrastructure, without the investor confidence to make that happen, we're not going to be able to to, you know, achieve the emissions reductions that are envisioned envisaged. So for us that whole question of division, and how do we address division, where it exists, is just fundamental to our efforts.   Dan Seguin  07:17 Okay. Now, do you think we lack a shared positive vision as Canadians on the future? And how we get there together? How do we build bridges? Is this what you're trying to achieve with positive energy?   Monica Gattinger  07:32 Yeah, I'd say yes or no, on the shared vision. So you know, we do a lot of public opinion, polling researchers, as you might know, Dan, and and, you know, uniformly Canadian scores, government's very poorly, on whether they are succeeding and developing a shared vision for Canada's energy future. That said, you know, I don't see it all as a whole bad news, there is remarkable alignment of views among Canadians on many aspects of the country's energy future, I think sometimes what, what we tend to hear, you know, are the voices in political debates and in the media, and in the end in the media, that are on you know, sort of opposite ends of a spectrum, if you look at, you know, sort of where Canadians are at, in general, you know, in terms of the majority opinions, they're often much more aligned than what you might think, by listening to some of our political debates or reading the media. So I think what we're trying to do at positive energies is a few things. One is, you know, to really try to see just how divided we are, and a lot of our work has brought forward that we're not as divided as we might think, on some of these issues. And the second thing we're trying to do is provide a forum for people who do want to work constructively and positively to chart a positive path forward, provide that forum for those to do that, and then to undertake academic research to support that. And one of the things that we found is that there's just a tremendous appetite for that kind of initiative.   Dan Seguin  09:05 Okay, Monica, hoping you can shed some light on this next item. What do you mean, when you see that Canada is at a log jam when it comes to charting our energy future?   Monica Gattinger  09:19 That's a great question. Because, you know, when I think about when we wrote that, that was a few that were written a few years ago. So it kind of answers that question a little bit differently now than I would have if you'd asked it at the time that we wrote it. So if you think about it, cast your mind back to 2015. And the creation between the federal government and the provinces of the pan Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change, there was a lot of alignment between the federal government and provinces and territories around climate change. And then we had some electoral turnover and new governments coming into power at the provincial level and the round sort of the 2018 period and that relative peace between federal and provincial governments began to be overturned. And so that, you know, the log jam that we were referring to was really written at that period of time, we were seeing a lot of fractiousness between the federal government and provincial governments. And don't get me wrong, we still see, we still see some of that, but certainly not to the level we did at that time. So I think it over the last few years, we've seen much greater alignment emerge in the country, notably around the concept of net zero, which we think is really, really, really constructive progress. I think, where we see some of the challenges now is moving to implementation, right? How do we move to reduce emissions and actually roll up our sleeves and do it in a way that will build and maintain public confidence? That's, you know, that's very much where we're casting our efforts these days.   Dan Seguin  10:50 Okay, cool. And what are some of the weaknesses you found in energy decision making?   Monica Gattinger  10:56 So I think there are a few that I would point to, you know, one would be and our current work is zeroing in on this more than we have in the past, is the whole question of energy security. And by that what, what we're referring to is the reliability and affordability and availability of energy. So in the absence, I mean, Dan, you know, you work at hydro Ottawa, so you would know, when you know, when the lights go out. People are nervous, it really captures their attention. I'll put it that way. And so in the absence of, you know, reliable, affordable energy, it's going to be very difficult to make ongoing progress on emissions reductions. So that whole question of energy security is one of the what I'd say is sort of the weaknesses in the frame that policymakers are often bringing to, to energy decision making, I think a second area that really is going to need some attention is our policy and regulatory frameworks for energy project decision making. I mean, we know, let's say, you know, take electrification, if we're going to be moving forward on electrification in a meaningful way. Most reasonable estimates assume we're going to need to double or triple our generating capacity in the country, and all the infrastructure transmission, local distribution, all that goes along with that, that's going to require building a whole lot of infrastructure. And so there's definitely some weaknesses there in our existing frameworks for doing that. And then the third area I'd point to is collaboration between governments. And so yes, federal and provincial, but it's also increasingly, municipal governments as well need to be collaborating with other levels of government and indigenous governments too, so bringing together that collaboration across jurisdictions is an area where there's a lot of a lot of strength that we're going to need to be building.   Dan Seguin  12:47 Okay, Monica, following up on this theme, positive energy has conducted a number of public opinion surveys since 2015, to gauge Canadian support for the country's climate commitments and their views on our international credibility. What are some surprises? And have you seen any change in attitudes since you started the surveys?   Monica Gattinger  13:11 Yeah, we've done a lot of work. We have a fantastic partnership with Nanos research, we've been working with Nick Nanos and the Nanos team since 2015, we've done lots of public opinion polling along the way. And so I think, you know, one of the things that has surprised me the most about this, and maybe it's just my own naivete as as a, you know, an academic researcher, but is just the pragmatism of Canadians, you know, many of the questions that we put to Canadians come back with very pragmatic and balanced responses. So there seems to be that recognition on the part of, of Canadians of the need to take a balanced approach to energy and climate issues. So I'll give you just a couple of quick examples. So we've been tracking Canadians level of climate ambition, we started doing this actually, during the pandemic. And so we asked people on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is now the worst time and 10 is the best time to take action on climate, you know, what, what, how would you score things? And, you know, the majority of Canadians, you know, score things strongly, they want to see climate action. We've seen some weakening of that, notably, as we've got some weakening of the economic conditions that has weakened people's appetite. So that's sort of one thing we, you know, Canadians want climate action. On the second. Second thing I'd point to is, we've done a lot of tracking as well, around Canadians views on the importance of oil and gas to Canada's current economy and to its future economy. And so, you know, there again, we see what you might expect, which is people there's a recognition that oil and gas is important to Canada's current economy. Views tend to drop off a little bit in terms of its importance to the future economy, but much stronger than I would have anticipated in terms of the level of, you know, opinions when it comes to the strength, or when it comes to the importance, apologies of oil and gas and Canada's current and future economy. One thing I'm just going to, you know, like heads up, we've got a study coming out very shortly. And we've seen a jump in Canadians' views around the importance of oil and gas to the country's current and future economy. And we're thinking that this might be because of economic conditions having changed, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine, just creating a different kind of an environment for Canadians opinions, then the last thing I point to that, for me is kind of been surprising, but in a not always fun way is that we've also been tracking Canadians views on government's performance on energy and climate issues. And then it doesn't matter what aspect of government performance we ask people about, they always score it like so weak, like weak to the point, when we first asked this question, I'm like, Nick, do people you know, just kind of score governments weekly? And so this is just, you know, typical stuff. He's like, No, Monica, that's really low scores. So I think there's a recognition there on the part of Canadians that governments have a lot of work to do, that this is difficult stuff, to to to take on. But that we're going to need to if we're going to be able to achieve some of our climate ambition in the country.   Dan Seguin  16:27 Now, let's dig into the research. First, can you tell us who you're convening and bringing together to conduct your research and who your intended audience is? Who do you want to influence?    Monica Gattinger  16:42 Yeah, so we're bringing together leaders, from business, from government and from government, we're referring to both policymakers and regulatory agencies, leaders from indigenous organizations, from civil society organizations, like environmental NGOs, and then academics, like myself. And our aim is really with the research and convening that we're undertaking is to inform decision making, you know, so the key audience for this from our perspective as government decision makers, whether policymakers or regulators at, you know, at at any level of government, really, more broadly, in our we're working very closely with the energy and climate community at large. So our intended audience isn't, you know, sort of the general public per se, although I like to think that we're sort of working on their behalf in terms of a lot of the work, a lot of the work that we're doing   Dan Seguin  17:37 Great stuff, Monica, now, let's talk about your first multi year research phase, public confidence in energy decision making. Why is it important to start here?   Monica Gattinger  17:49 Yeah, for us, this was really crucial to try to dig into and understand why we are facing these challenges to public confidence in decision making, for energy and climate issues. And, you know, believe it or not, we spent about two years trying to dig into that problem and identify all of its different, all of its different components. So we published a study in that first phase of research called system under stress, where we were focusing on energy decision making, and the need to inform, sorry, to reform energy decision making in that study, and this was sort of how we unpack this challenge of public confidence. We use this metaphor of elephants, horses, and sitting ducks. And so the elephants were elephants in the room. So at that time, one of the big issues that was, you know, informing or leading to challenges in public confidence was that there was a belief on the part of quite a few folks that governments were taking insufficient action on climate change. And as a result of that, not having a forum, you know, to move forward action on climate change, many folks who were concerned about that or raising those issues in regulatory processes for individual energy projects, right? And if your regulators say, well, that's not part of my mandate. So what would we do with this, and that led to some challenges. Another Elephant, you know, another elephant in the room at that time was reconciliation with indigenous peoples, that there was insufficient action on the part, you know, on the, you know, in the minds of many around reconciliation with indigenous peoples and so, you know, some of the big challenges that indigenous communities were facing, whether missing, murdered indigenous women, you know, potable drinking water, economic conditions, a whole host of challenges were also being raised in the context of individual energy project decision making. The process for lack of other forums to take those concerns to another elephant in the room was cumulative effects. Right. So communities were concerned not necessarily about a particular project, but about the project that came before the project, who was going to come after it, and what would be the cumulative effects on their community. So that was sort of the elephant, the elephant in the room policy gaps, basically, that governments needed to take more action to fulfill. When it came to the horses, we were referring to horses that had left the barn. So in other words, changes in society and the broader, you know, context, where you're not going to turn the clock back on them. So things like, you know, people expect, rightly, to have a say, in decisions that affect them. They're not different, you know, they don't defer the way they used to, to governments and to decision makers, they expect to have a say in decisions that affect them. And some of our decision making processes weren't frankly, providing sufficient opportunities for them to be heard. Technological change, right, you know, you're not going to turn the clock back on social media. And that also has fundamentally changed the context in terms of how information circulates capacities for misinformation, disinformation, etc. And so when against this backdrop, you know, who are the sitting ducks? Well, the sitting ducks are government decision makers, right? They're trying to deal with all of these challenges. We got a lot of traction with that report, Dan, because I think it sort of helped people to, you know, frame up, what is the nature of the challenge that we're facing when it comes to public confidence, which of course, then begins to open up solution spaces?   Dan Seguin  21:40 Okay. What did you uncover when it came to the role of local communities?   Monica Gattinger  21:46 Yeah, we did a major study on this, it was some of this was happening concurrently. But we did a major study in collaboration with the Canada West Foundation, where we did some very deep dive case study research on half a dozen energy projects across the country with the aim of identifying drivers of local community satisfaction or dissatisfaction with energy project, decision making processes. So these were projects, you know, wind, gas plants, hydro facilities, transmission lines, pipelines, shale development, like a whole variety of different kinds of projects in different locations across the country. And so there are a few things I'd point to there in terms of some of the key findings. Probably the first and foremost is the importance of early and meaningful consultation and engagement. And I feel kind of silly saying that, because it's like, we have been saying this for years, how important this is. But yet, you know, there are still proponents that aren't necessarily, you know, aren't necessarily getting out there early and in a meaningful way, to communities. I think the second thing, and it's related, that I'd point to is the importance of information, like yes, communities want information about a project. But it's an what we refer to in the report is a necessary but insufficient condition, right, just saying, you know, here's the project, here's the information, this should change your mind, if you've got any concerns, really and truly is not is not enough, you need that meaningful engagement, you need to hear from people. And in some instances, this is a third thing I'd point to. In some instances, you know, it's important to draw the distinction between what a community's interests are so it could be, you know, economic development, jobs, etc, but also what their values are. And there may be some projects that even though they might advance the community's interests, in terms of jobs, etc, if they run counter to community values, and what they want to see developed in their community, it will be very challenging to foster support for up for a project. Another thing, we found just a couple more things that point to here. Another thing we found that I think is going to be increasingly important as we move on net zero and emissions reductions, oftentimes at the community level, the key environmental issue is local environmental impacts, as opposed to global climate change impacts. So even if you've got a project that's going to be good for the climate, if it's got local environmental impacts from the perspective of a community, those concerns may actually trump the good that could be done more broadly when it comes to the climate. And so I guess the last thing I'd point to is, you know, just the importance of process, having a decision making process in which people can have faith. And so, you know, we did a lot of work right in communities. So you'd have community members say, like, I can get behind a decision that I don't agree with, you know, if my perspective is at the end of the day, we're heard in a meaningful way and were considered in a meaningful way. But governments decided to go in a different direction. I can, you know, I can live with that as long as I felt that the process was one that was legitimate. So that process piece is so important at the community level.   Dan Seguin  25:02 Okay, now, what were some of the biggest takeaways from your project? Monica? Were you surprised by any of the data?   Monica Gattinger  25:09 Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I probably go back to the local versus global impacts piece, I think that is a circle, we're gonna have to figure out how to square for lack of a better a better metaphor here going forward, because many of the projects that we're going to need in the years ahead in terms of emissions reductions, they are going to have local environmental impacts. You know, and it doesn't take long to think about examples of that, right. So think about mining for critical minerals, think about transmission infrastructure, think I mean, on and on and on. And so thinking through how do we, you know, be respectful of local communities ensure we've got processes in place that that they can have faith in and ensure that local environmental impacts are mitigated in a meaningful fashion? And frankly, no has to be an option sometimes, right? There are some projects that have to receive a no of all projects are greenlighted, that puts the entire system into question in people's minds.   Dan Seguin  26:15 Okay, Monica, your second research phase just concluded Canada's energy future in an age of climate change. What challenges and opportunities were you focused on? And what did you uncover?   Monica Gattinger  26:28 That's a big question, Dan. So maybe just a couple of things I'll point to. The first is to say that, you know, for that particular project, because it was or that phase because it got underway at a time where there was quite a lot of fractiousness between the federal and provincial governments. We took on the topic of polarization, in that phase of the research to try to understand, you know, just how polarized are we, when it comes to energy and climate issues? And, and the, you know, the, the, the fortunate answer was that we're not as polarized as we might think, on some of these issues. So those areas where, you know, people's opinions are truly at opposite ends of a spectrum, they've got their heels dug in, the opinions are very hardened and crystallized, they're not willing to move, you know, there's, those are very few and far between a lot more of the division that we see back to that word division that we talked about earlier, Dan, it so those are opinions that are maybe a little bit more malleable to change, where you can potentially bring people together and have a constructive, constructive conversation to move things forward. So that the polarization, the polarization work, I think was really important to try to, you know, shine a light empirically on just how polarized are we, one thing that did come out of that work, though, that I think is really important to note is that a lot of the polarization that we see is along partisan lines. And so it's really important to have and create non-partisan forums for people to come together because partisan polarization on energy and climate issues can be quite challenging. So we looked at polarization, we also looked at, we continued our work around sort of roles and responsibilities of different government authorities in energy and climate decision making, we did a really big project around energy regulators with, you know, again, thinking about how important they are going to be in the future when it comes to energy project proposals and evaluating energy project proposals. And I think, you know, what came out of that work is just the importance of creating regulatory frameworks that are functional, right, they're going to enable us to get to a decision. But that is adaptable. You know, we know there are going to be new energy sources, new technologies we're going to need to be adapting our frameworks over time. And that are, you know, absolutely this crucial element and of legitimate that they are that people have confidence in those decision making processes. But it's not just about regulators. It's also about the broader policy context within which they work, you know, the need for regulatory agencies to be operating in the context of clear policy frameworks. You know, for there to be a good understanding between policymakers and regulators they have their respective roles when it comes to things like energy project, energy project approvals. The third area that we focused on in this most recent phase of research was models of and limits to consensus building, right. So if we do have division, how do we try to foster consensus and we recognize we're not going to get to you know, everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya there. This is politics, there will be, there will be divisions. But we did a lot of work on this whole concept of what are some of the models that can be utilized to foster consensus? What are some of the limits to those models? And the sort of bottom line of that research is that progress is possible when it comes to consensus building, but it's not easy. It's a hard one, it takes time, it takes a lot of thoughtful preparation and care to put in place processes that will drive towards positive outcomes.   Dan Seguin  30:32 Okay. Now, there were five case studies that came out of this phase intended to identify what works when it comes to public confidence in decision making. What are some of the highlights?   Monica Gattinger  30:44 Yeah, and this kind of picks up on the question of consensus building and models of and limits to consensus building. So we undertook a number of case studies of different initiatives that have been tried in Canada to try to foster consensus. So we looked, for example, at the Alberta climate leadership plan, we looked at the Eco fiscal commission, we looked at the National roundtable on the environment of the economy, we looked at the just transition Task Force on the coal fired power phase out. So this was a mixture of federal provincial, government, non government, current past initiatives. And there are a few things that I point to that, you know, came out of that work. The first is that there are no silver bullets. I mean, Boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were easy answers to these really tough questions, but there are not easy answers to these really tough questions. They, you know, it really is important to, to have kind of a multi pronged approach. And more than one approach, there isn't going to be one single initiative that's going to solve all of these challenges. But process matters process really matters. So who is involved? How are decisions taken? You know, is the process seen as legitimate? That's really, you know, absolutely the place to start with any of these processes around consensus building. Again, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right. So you can have in place a process that is designed to, you know, bring forward recommendations to the government on policy. But if people don't have trust in the information that's produced by that initiative, you've got a problem, right? So I think the Eco fiscal commission was really interesting in that, in that case, because it brought together an advisory board, that included representation from a variety of different political parties, the aim being to see if these folks can come together, and you know, work together and have confidence in this process, then others are more likely to have confidence in the information that's produced on the studies that are produced by by in that case, the ecofiscal, commission, there are a lot of relationships between different processes. So for example, you know, if you think about the development of a carbon price in Canada, you know, yes, that's where the Eco fiscal commission was focusing a lot of its efforts. But the Alberta climate leadership plan, in part paved the way towards the development of a federal price on carbon, because of the work that was done in the province to put in place a carbon pricing a carbon pricing scheme. And then the final thing, and this isn't something that people always like to hear, unfortunately, is that building consensus takes time. And it's something that is, as we know, in the current context with, you know, with climate change is something that we don't necessarily have the luxury of having. So it's how do you sort of hold those two things in your hand at the same time, and I often use the example of a carbon tax, having a carbon tax in Canada is a massive achievement for the country. But it took probably a decade or more to get there. And that's only one small in the big scheme of things policy tool. So you know, no silver bullets. It takes time, but it is possible. So progress is possible, but it's hard won.   Dan Seguin  34:12 Okay, now, this was fascinating. Monica, you identified two realities of energy and environmental leaders in Canada, when it comes to Canada's energy transition. Maybe you can unpack that for us just a bit more.   Monica Gattinger  34:29 Yeah, for sure. So this was a really, really neat study, one of the things that we found in our work, because we convene when we are, you know, very close to a lot of energy and environmental leaders. One of the things that we were finding is that this word transition could have elements to it that were kind of polarizing. And so for some folks, it was something that actually drove them away from our table rather than bringing them to our table. So being academics, we thought, well, let's do a study on this. What do people think transition is? What does it mean to them? Why are we running into these issues? And I have to credit our former Research Director, Dr. Marissa Beck, this was her idea, it was her study, she did an absolutely tremendous job. So she went out there and spoke with over 40 energy and environmental leaders across the country. And, and what, you know, what emerged from that work was that there were really two different realities that people inhabited, either, you know, sort of in whole, or in part, when it comes to transition. And we didn't name the realities, we just stated them, you know, in a very, in a very sort of fact based way. And they differed in terms of scope, and pace of change. And, you know, so in one of the realities, you know, the, the idea is that we're going to have a more measured pace of change, it's going to be driven by market developments, some policy developments, we're going to in the future have, you know, a diverse energy portfolio that's going to include, you know, a variety of different energy sources, yes, in different proportions than we currently have them. But you know, that oil and gas, for instance, is going to be a part of the future. So that's sort of one reality, the other reality grounded in a much more, you know, ambitious, rapid, need for change, quickly grounded in science, much stronger role for government in terms of setting out the policy framework, much greater attention to the need to, notably to phase down oil and gas and in particular oil. And so you can imagine if you've got folks inhabiting these different realities, it is difficult for them to come together, because they're often talking past. They're often talking past one another. And, and so we didn't necessarily have any solutions for this proposed in that particular, in that particular study. I think our work really does try to do some convening around those issues. But what it really did in this particular study resonated so well, with folks in the Energy and Environment communities, we had people saying, like you just nailed it. Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. And so you would have folks say, you know, well, the reality is, or we just need an honest conversation. But what the reality meant to them, what an honest conversation would mean to them was, was something completely different than folks inhabiting the other reality. And so these are the kinds of challenges, you know, Dan, that we, we hope to shed light on with our work. And we also hope to also address the research and convening as well.   Dan Seguin  37:50 Now, your third phase has just begun. What can you tell us so far, about strengthening public confidence on the road to net zero and the areas you're looking to cover in your research over the next several years?   Monica Gattinger  38:07 Yeah, no, that's a great opportunity to share this with you, Dan. Thanks. Thanks so much. So yeah, I mean, if our first phase was focused on public confidence, and kind of the here and now, second phase was Canada's energy future in an age of climate change, this phase is the longest term, longest term phase yet in terms of looking at net zero. And looking at 2050. We've got four areas that we're focusing in on in terms of this research, that really build in many ways on the work that we've done to date, we've been talking so far data about the importance of regulation, and having energy project decision making systems that are going to foster and support the kind of change to our energy systems that we're going to need. That's a big, a big area for us, one of the areas as well, that we're going to start to be getting into an in a more meaningful way, is downstream regulation as well, because with the, you know, with the growing attention to electrification, this is going to mean, you know, greater focus to what are our regulatory frameworks for energy delivery, whether it's in power markets, or in gas markets. And we think that there's, there's something that we will have to offer there as well, in terms of our work. So that's on the regulatory front. Another topic that for us, we think is really important is this whole question of energy security. And by that, you know, again, this isn't just about what's happening in global energy markets, it's what's happening domestically as well in terms of the need of the need to have reliable and affordable energy to ensure that we don't, you know, take one step forward and then two steps back on emissions reductions. So it's really very much about solving for Yes, emissions reductions and affordable reliable energy simultaneously, which in our observation is something that you know, has has not always been on the radar of policymakers, I think the energy system has just done such a great job of providing reliable, affordable energy that it's not always thought about. And yet, you know, if we're going to be transforming our energy systems, it better be front and center. Or we could really run into some challenges in terms of public confidence on the road ahead. The third area we're zeroing in on is intergovernmental collaboration. We are a federation, we are a federation with increasing roles and authority for indigenous governments, as well. So it's really about how do we make sure we've got good collaboration between federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous and municipal governments on the road ahead. And again, it's that kind of collaboration, collaboration piece. And then finally, we're going to continue with the public opinion survey research. And that work generally aims to support the other streams of research. So we're asking questions that relate to some of the broader work that we're doing. Cool. Okay.   Dan Seguin  41:07 I know you're going to tell me it's early Monica, but based on what the data and public service have shown over these many years, is Net Zero. resonating with people?   Monica Gattinger  41:19 Well, interestingly, so last June, we held a conference to mark the, you know, the conclusion of phase two and the launch of phase three. And we did some public opinion survey research going into that conference, including some questions around net zero. So we asked people if they had heard about net zero. And then we asked them, you know, the dreaded open ended question, and what does it mean to you? So it's one thing to have heard about, it's another thing to, you know, be asked to define it. And I was really surprised at like, the majority, like a strong majority of people had heard of net zero. And when asked to define it provided a definition that was pretty on target. So people, you know, I don't know if that means it's resonating with people. But they have definitely absorbed that this concept, and that this is something that, you know, is in policymakers is in policymakers minds. I think the other thing I would note, though, is you know, there's netzero, and then there's just emissions reductions writ large, the work that we've done around Canadian support for emissions reductions, climate change, policy, etc, shows just time and again, Canadians want to see this, they want to see emissions reductions, they want to see it done in a balanced way back to the pragmatic response I was giving earlier. But they're definitely, definitely committed to that.   Dan Seguin  42:43 Okay, now, when do you expect your first publication will be shared?   Monica Gattinger  42:47 So we've got our quarterly public opinion surveys that come out every few months. We actually have some, we're just finalizing a study right now that will be published very, very shortly. In terms of the research publications, we've got two underway right now, that should be published within the next number of months. One is looking at regulation for project decision making, and in particular, this whole question of timelines. So if you talk with folks, you know, in industry and in government, right now, they'll say, Well, we got to build all this stuff. But can we build it fast enough? And so that's actually the title of the project? Can we build it out fast enough? And we're focusing on what are some of the issues when it comes to regulatory frameworks for project decision making. So that's one study that should be coming out within the next few months. And then a second one, it's republication of a study that we completed for the Canadian Gas Association, electricity Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but this time last year, which was looking at regulation of energy delivery systems and power and gas markets, you're looking at international case studies to try to identify like, how are other countries grappling with the challenges of netzero in their power and gas markets. So we're going to be updating and republishing that study. We're in the process of doing that right now, that should be coming out in the next few months. And the case studies that we're looking at in that research are Western Australia, the United Kingdom, which as you might imagine, is a very interesting case study given the challenges that they've had on their power and gas markets. And New York State.   Dan Seguin  44:25 Just wondering here, is there anything you can tell us about your appointment to the province's New Energy Transition panel, its objectives and how you feel this could move the energy conversation forward in Ontario.   Monica Gattinger  44:39 Thanks for the question. I mean, I'm, you know, let's be honest, I'm an energy geek. And so it is just an unbelievable honor to have been appointed to the panel. This for me, is a dream appointment. I'm just so so so enthused about it. I'm not going to be able to speak on behalf of the panel. It's too Early in our work, but I will just share, you know, in my personal capacity now that I think the panel does have the capacity or the potential to be really quite important to the province's energy future. So if you think about, you know, the research that we've been doing at positive energy, the importance of informed decision making on the part of governments to recognize all of the strengths, limitations, consequences, intended or otherwise, of their decisions on energy and climate. So the panel, I think, has a great opportunity to help inform decision making. But as I've said, on a couple of occasions, today, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right process matters. And, you know, the panel, again, has the potential to be a very important process in terms of its engagement, and meaningful engagement with stakeholders, with indigenous partners, with all those who are interested in the province's energy future. So, you know, a couple of just additional things I would say. One is that the panel's focus in its mandate on long term energy planning, I think, I think is very important, because we're gonna need to plan and think through the long term more than we ever have before in terms of our energy systems when it comes to emissions reductions. I think the other thing, you know, I would lastly, but not leastly, I would recognize, you know, the importance of affordability and reliability. You know, yes, undertaking emissions reductions, but ensuring it's done in a reliable and affordable way. That enables, you know, economic competitiveness and the like. And that's something that, you know, that this government, the Ontario government, brings to the table, which I think is extremely important and will be crucial for the future.   Dan Seguin  46:53 Okay, Monica. Now, if you could speak to everyone in Canada, what would you want people to know, that you think is not widely known? Or understood?   Monica Gattinger  47:06 Yeah, there are a few things I would point to there. I think one would be the scale of the transformation that we're contemplating with netzero. I mean, if you take electrification, just as an example, you know, about only about 20% of and use energy, I mean, I'm telling you this, Dan, you know, all this stuff, but only about 20%. The venue's energy, you know, is currently accounted for by electricity. If we're looking to scale that up, you know, depending on what model you look at, but let's say you're looking to scale that up to you know, 80%, that's four times what it where it currently stands, this is a massive, massive transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. And I think that's one area where, you know, there isn't necessarily as much understanding as there could be in terms of the scale. Like, the second thing that I would love to get out there is that, you know, there's often a view that industry is, you know, dragging its heels, it's, you know, putting in place roadblocks, it's acting as a barrier. That's not what I see, in our engagements with folks in industry across the country, and a whole variety of different energy, different segments of the energy sector. Industry is there. What, you know, the real challenge now is kind of how do we move from the what, to the how, and foster an environment that will foster the kind of change that the companies are really looking to make. And then the third area that I would point to is reconciliation with indigenous peoples. We haven't spoken about that too much this morning. But that's one of the areas over the last number of years where there has just been such a fundamental change in the way industry, and indigenous communities and governments are working together. I think what we often see in you know, in the newspapers in the media is instances of conflict, you know, for obvious reasons, that's, that's, you know, what the media is going to be drawn to, but there are so many examples of just unbelievably constructive, meaningful partnerships between indigenous communities and industry. And I think that's something that you know, that that really is, is just a wonderful, wonderful change over the last few years.   Dan Seguin  49:24 Lastly, Monica, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I'm hoping you say you're ready.   Monica Gattinger  49:33 Okay, I'm ready. I'll do my best.    Monica Gattinger  49:36 Here we go.What are you reading right now?   Monica Gattinger  49:39 I am reading The Heart Goes Last by Margaret Atwood. You would think you know, during a global pandemic, you wouldn't read dystopian fiction, but that's what I'm doing. Terrific. Terrific book. by Margaret Atwood.   Dan Seguin  49:52 Okay, Monica, what would you name your boat? If you had one or maybe you do have one?   Monica Gattinger  49:58 I do not have one but if I did I think I would name it Smooth Sailing, because that's what I'd want to be doing when I was on my boat.    Dan Seguin  50:05 Okay, who is someone that you really admire?    Monica Gattinger  50:09 Oh, without question. My parents. You know, we've had some pretty tragic things happen in my family and they have, you know, continued to be positive soldier on, be great grandparents to my kids, I don't know how they do it, I admire them to the moon and back, as they say,   Dan Seguin  50:26 Okay, moving on, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witness?    Monica Gattinger  50:33 That's a tough one, I think I'd say I spent a lot of time outdoors. We have dogs. So I'm often out with the dogs, I ride horses. So I'm often out horseback riding anything in nature, there are so many magical moments where you see, you know, ways that animals are interacting with one another or things happening. Things happening in the, you know, in the plant environment and ecosystem that to me are just magical, and remind me of just how little we know about the world around us.   Dan Seguin  51:06 Okay, Monica, that's cool. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,   Monica Gattinger  51:13 My family has been extremely fortunate during the pandemic. So yeah, it feels almost kind of trite to talk about challenges. I think if there's one thing that I would point to, though, it's the last time it's the last time notably, in my family's case, between my sons and their grandparents. You know, my youngest son used to go to his grandparents house every day after school, they'd feed him snacks, he'd come home, that's gone. They've you know, they've they're missing him growing into a young man, that's, that's been really, really tough. I mean, it's a first world problem. I, you know, we really have been fortunate. But that last time is, unfortunately, and we're just not going to get that back.   Dan Seguin  51:58 Now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite shows are movie   Monica Gattinger  52:06 I could talk for hours about this. But if I had to just pick one, the whole Yellowstone series, I am just crazy for that series, you know, because I horseback ride anything that involves horses and ranches. And my own family history, you know, involves homesteading. Just that whole series Yellowstone 1883 1923. And he was talking about magic down the fact that all of that comes out of Taylor Sheridan's brain that fast I have, I don't understand at all. But I really enjoy watching it. That series is just phenomenal.   Dan Seguin  52:45 Lastly, Monica, what is exciting you about your industry right now.   Monica Gattinger  52:50 I think it's the people who are now on the let's roll up our sleeves face. And let's figure out how to know how to get this done. There's the waterfront of challenges seems endless, but the fact that that there's much more alignment among industry, government, civil society, you know, take your pick indigenous organizations, etc, about ensuring that we're reducing emissions, and, you know, the desire to work together to figure out how, to me is really exciting.   Dan Seguin  53:20 Well, Monica, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect or find out more?   Monica Gattinger  53:35 We have a website that you will be welcomed to, to reach out to just type into Google "University of Ottawa positive energy" and it should pop up for you. People are welcome to reach out to me personally, you know, again, easy to find me on the Internet, email addresses and the like. I'd be happy to hear from people.   Dan Seguin  53:55 Again. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.   Monica Gattinger  53:59 This was great. Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate the opportunity.    Dan Seguin  54:03 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

What challenges and opportunities do Ottawa residents face as Canada moves towards net zero? In episode 114 of thinkenergy, host Dan Seguin chats with the former Mayor of Ottawa to find out. Jim Durrell is a distinguished personality, with an extensive career in sports, politics, and the energy sector. Listen as he shares his experience as Chair of Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc. since 2012, including recent changes to the electricity sector and his vision for the future of energy in Ottawa.   Related links   Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc.: https://powerasone.ca/  Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc. Board of Directors: https://powerasone.ca/about/board-of-directors/ To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets   ------------------------------ Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Those rollers me and welcome back. Our guest today is a distinguished personality, with an extensive and impressive career in sports, politics, and the energy sector. Jim Durrell, Former Mayor of Ottawa and Chair of the Board at Hydro Ottawa. Attended Acadia University at the age of 17, where he was the quarterback and CO captain of the Acadia Axman football team. He learned valuable lessons during this experience, which helped shape his future career. He has a passion for sports, and a commitment to bringing world class sporting events to Ottawa, including the 1988 Grey Cup game, and a triple A baseball franchise to the city. Jim served as the president of the Ottawa Senators, and has been inducted in the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame as a builder. We will talk to Jim about how these achievements prepared him for his role as a mayor and the many board positions he has held, including his current role as Chair of Hydro Ottawa. Jim will share with us the biggest changes he has seen in the electricity sector since he joined the board in 2012. And his vision for Ottawas energy future. So, here is today's big question for Jim. What are the greatest challenges and opportunities that Ottawa residents face in moving towards Net Zero? Jim, welcome to the show. I understand you went to Acadia University in Nova Scotia at the tender age of 17. While there you were the quarterback and CO captain of the Acadia Axman football team. What are some of the valuable lessons that this experience taught you?   Jim Durrell  02:32 I'd have to say that, and it's a generalization about football. Unlike a lot of other sports and basketball, you can be an unbelievable player and carry your whole team and do something. In football. It's very much a team effort. If your offensive line is in playing well, you get massacred as a quarterback you can't pass your running backs are hit. So unlike other sports as well, you can't really talk to the referees, if you say so much as boo to them the wrong way, your entire team is penalized. So it was a wonderful lesson in teamwork, in understanding the value of teamwork. And at the same time recognizing that you couldn't -within the rules of the game - there's some leeway, but it's not just about you.   Dan Seguin  03:24 It's clear to say that you have a love for sports, and your commitment to bringing world class sporting events to Ottawa is unsurpassed. I mean, you served as president of the Ottawa Senators, you secure the 1988 Grey Cup game for Ottawa, you delivered a triple A baseball franchise to the city. On top of this, you have served as a governor for Canada Sports Hall of Fame and have been inducted as a builder in the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame. So I have to ask you this. How did these achievements prepare you for your role as a mayor, and for many board positions that you have held through the years, including serving as chair for hydro Ottawa?   Jim Durrell  04:14 I include sport in the entertainment world. So when I look at the four cornerstones of a great city, and I believe Ottawa is a great city, one is education. One is health care. One is your economy. And the fourth one is and - in no particular order- is sports and entertainment. And it's like a chair, and when you've got the four legs of the chair all sitting there then you've got the makings of a great chair. Okay. And the bottom line is that young people today, the world is far bigger than sitting in your office, working all day and I've done that for my entire life but the world- is people need to be entertained. There's a life of inside the office, there is a life that you can enjoy with friends and with family. And sport does that, and you know, as a young man growing up in Montreal, John Beliveau was my hero, the Canadians. And young people have to have these heroes. One of the issues that I always found was when you came to Ottawa, certainly before we brought the NHL here is that all our heroes were from other cities. Well, now, it's not the case. So you can have a CFL hero, you can have an NHL hero. And these things are very important to me, for young men and women that they have models to look up to and grow.   Dan Seguin  05:41 Okay, cool. Now, what were some of the key learnings as a mayor that you were able to transfer to your role at Hydro Ottawa? And what were some of the key differences?   Jim Durrell  05:56 You know, when you're mayor of the capital city of Canada, it's a job that no matter how many years you spend, training, it's a whole different world. And you recognize, I guess, I'll go back and just say, in our personal lives, we choose our friends, we choose what we want to do and when we want to do it. When you're mayor, you see the underbelly of a city, you see the great, you see the challenges, you see the toughness, and it all gets thrown on you on a daily basis. And, and I don't mean that negatively, I mean it from a learning perspective, because you walk out of that job, with a far bigger view and vision of, of how the world really, really works. And so when I came to Hydro, it was it's interesting, because we're very much a private company, but we're even more a public company, and the expectations of the public at large, and our shareholder, which is City Council. Now, I'm very fortunate, having spent all the years that I did at the city, I understand how Council works, and I understand what's important to the individual Councillors and, and the Mayor. And so that has been an asset for me to be able to move through those minefields and call them whatever you want. But the bigger picture is, I never forgot how important our customers were. And our customers were the citizens of Ottawa. And that's our regional debt. That's why we're here.   Dan Seguin  07:48 Jim, you have served on the Hydro Ottawa board since July 2012. What is the biggest change you've seen in Hydro Ottawa since?   Jim Durrell  08:01 That's a good question. And when I became chairman, Hydro, Ottawa was a very highly, highly regulated business. And by a regulated business, we just mailed out the bills, people paid the bills, and we provided energy to their homes. As time has gone on, and we see this all everywhere - fridges, stoves, air conditioners, everything is much, much more efficient. So when you look at the consumption level, per house, and per business, it's dropped substantially. Now, people would argue, and why are my hydro rates going up? Because it's a regulated business, and we're basically controlled by the province. It's really the reality of life. To succeed and grow, then we had to move into other fields. So in 2012 95% of our net income basically, came from the regulated business. Today, it's 67%. And that change, that movement away, has been largely through green energy. And then there are things that we can control in our future. We're the boss, and it allows us, and I look at Chaudiere, you know, the Falls and the energy. We're the largest municipally owned run-of-the-water in Ontario right now. That's the biggest change that we've really gravitated from a regulated business to an exciting, expanding, growing and financially successful business.   Dan Seguin  09:42 Okay, now, I know you love a challenge. So what project or moment during your tener as Board Chair for Hydro Ottawa, do you consider to have been the most challenging?   Jim Durrell  09:54 The biggest thing I would say is, it gets a little complicated, so I'll try and keep it at a high level. We pay every year a dividend to the city, they're our shareholder, they expect the dividend. We always borrowed money- I won't get into financial structures because it's a strange animal created by the province. But we were borrowing money to pay the city a dividend, which just drove us further and further in debt all the time. And our free cash flow, which is what you should pay dividends out was diminished, or non existent by changing to an unregulated business, which is what we're doing now. The unregulated business doesn't pay the dividend, we made that fundamental governance change. So we pay a dividend out of Hydro Ottawa Limited, but all our other Portege power in very all of our other businesses, we keep that cash and those profits. So basically, long term means that we won't be borrowing to pay dividends to the city, that it was the largest fundamental change that we made.   Dan Seguin  11:03 If you could take out your crystal ball and forecast the future. What do you see in Ottawa's energy future?   Jim Durrell  11:11 For all of the talk that goes on about climate change and efficiencies, very little, frankly, is ever done. I mean, solar has just barely scratched the surface here. Wind is, you know, even less so and only in certain areas. So we've got an enormous number of buildings, federal, and municipal, that are older buildings, very poorly constructed for today's modern energy desires. And there has to be a big infrastructure. You can talk all day long about cars and efficiencies there. The hidden energy that's used by all of these older infrastructures is staggering. And nobody talks about it. Like quite frankly, so they spend their time worrying about an electric vehicle. And those are largely highly visible. And it's not that they're not important. The fact of the matter is, there's an enormous other number of areas that have to be changed. And those changes cost money. I look at the amount of money they created first, Atlantis and for this plant  and in St. Thomas, as well. And, you know, for Volkswagen. And those are all lovely things and but when I look at money that could really be reinvested properly, and, and have a profound impact in our city. It's fixing that infrastructure. It really is.   Dan Seguin  12:45 What, in your opinion, are some of the greatest challenges that we are facing as a community moving toward a net zero economy?   Jim Durrell  12:56 It's understanding what is net zero. It's now thrown around so casually, and, and everybody jumps right away and focuses on electric vehicles. Well, that's how we're going to do it. And they focus on, we're going to do more wind and solar. The counterbalance is a huge movement out there to cancel natural gas, which is, quite frankly, still highly energy efficient. And you have to, as you gravitate to net zero, it has to be financially affordable for people, it's fine for elites, and it's fine for people who've got lots of money to say we're all going to do this. There's a staggering number of people who live in this city that live hand to mouth, and they need energy, just like the elites need energy. And I use that word and I sounds in such a disparaging way, but they make most of the decisions. So as you move to net zero, you have to do it in an affordable, practical way. City Council passed a motion to cancel natural gas. Do you know what that would mean? Imagine trying to go to your house now. You have no natural gas and you're going to have electricity. Instead of paying a couple of 100 bucks a month, you're going to be paying 1000s What people can't afford that this is just you know, it's lovely, but it's quite frankly, nonsense. At some point in time. It's a nice thing to do. My granddaughter is your very typical 16 year old idealist. She is smart, engaged, a just adore and she's all on climate all the time, Grandpa, you're good in this net. And as I always said to her, Your grandpa totally agrees with you, dear. It's just that you have to move there in a responsible fashion and if you don't, you're going to hurt a tremendous number of people in the process. So the bottom line for me is most of these net zero goals are overly ambitious, there's no real plan to do them, you know whether it's federally provincially, everybody just is talking about it. And the goals are admirable, but it's got to be a goal that is achievable. I have for how many years now I watch the federal government say, you know, we're going to cut our carbon emissions, and every year they go up, what the hell's the use of all this planning, or whatever they call it? And nobody says anything about it.   Dan Seguin  15:29 You're gonna kill me, but I've got a follow up question here. Now, I'll flip that question. What, in your opinion, Jim, are the greatest opportunities that we have as a community in moving toward achieving net zero?   Jim Durrell  15:42 People understanding what Net Zero is. Really understanding and what they have to do themselves to try and get there. It's only a collective buying in, in my estimation, by the public at large. That's really ever going to move this. I'll go back to electric vehicles. There aren't enough charging stations around anywhere to handle it.  Snd everybody is "Oh, yeah. And in five years, it'll be only electric vehicles." No, there won't. In 10 years, we'll know there won't. I'm not even sure in 15 years. Because the infrastructure isn't there to support it. So though, there's something that I think can really happen, and happen properly. We're trying to gravitate to all of our vehicles being electric, here at Hydro Ottawa, and we can't get the vehicles. Oh, that's such a lovely goal. But they're not building them. And so this is the reality and if people have to really understand, and it's not the Prime Minister going out with some dribble or gravel and saying these are all the things of the Minister of the Environment, I don't mean to be disrespectful. But the bottom line is, it's all window dressing, there's nothing really honestly substantive there that affects you and me on a daily basis. We pay more than a carbon tax, and I got a check the other day, I mean, what I got the check for, and I'd find it with some reimbursement. Well, that's all window dressing. There's more cars on the road today than there ever was. And all it does is hurt the little guy who can't afford this stuff, you know. So the opportunities are enormous. They're far reaching. But they can only be achieved when people understand it. In its simplest equation, it's I want to lose 30 pounds by next year. Okay, well, that's a wonderful thing. Well, how are you going to do it? Well, these are the things I'm going to do. Okay, so in next month, what will you have lost? Well, if I do all this, I should have lost four pounds and you move it through and there's your 30. I don't see any of that happening, frankly. So there's a real opportunities there. It's moving again, from window dressing to substantive action that's meaningful.   Dan Seguin  18:11 You've had a very storied and accomplished life, Jim. So which is singular achievement in this wonderful life so far, are you most proud of?   Jim Durrell  18:23 Well, without leaving your family out, because I think that's unnatural, I would have to say Receiving the Order of Canada, which is the highest honor a civilian or a citizen can get to be recognized by your country. And I still I have my snowflake on my jacket as we speak here today. That was something going to Rideau Hall and having the Governor General talk about your accomplishments. And it was something that has left a lasting impression. It keeps you enormously humble, and I hope it'll have a great impact on my grandchildren and how they know they can make this country a better place.   Dan Seguin  19:15 What is the one singular thing in your opinion that Ottawa residents most need to know about the work we do at Hydro Ottawa, that they may not already know?   Jim Durrell  19:30 Our reliability, and every every single month, we look at two things. The acronyms are sadie and safety, but it's the number of outages and the frequency of time. We are best in class and have been for a number of years compared to other comparable energy utilities. And we take hydro for granted. If you do just wake up and flick a light and you just go, and you start to open your fridge. And all of these things are just, we don't even give a second thought to them, except when they don't work all of a sudden. And then it's like, well, what the hell is going on here? Why is this off? And hydro is probably-  not because I'm Chairman - that it won't be for long. It's the best value for money in all of the bills that we pay. It really is. I mean, when I think of the life style that it provides citizens on a day to day basis for what you pay. It's a great deal.   Dan Seguin  20:43 And finally, Sir, after your retirement as Board Chair in June, where are we next likely to see Jim Durrell? On the golf course at Augusta or celebrating with a Stanley Cup over your shoulders?   Jim Durrell  21:00 Boy, I'll tell you, I thought we were gonna win the cup. Had we had goaltending, we would have won it back in '08. But you know, I've always been active. It's keeps me young mentally. And so I have been very blessed. I have a great group of friends who are equally active. So we play tennis, we play golf. And I'll always care about the community, I mentor a number of young people, I'll continue to do that. I find that very personally fulfilling to pay it forward with young people. So it'll be a lot of that. You know, frankly, with the committees, and all of the boards I've chaired. I'm coming up to 77, the torch has been passed. My wife always says you're gonna go crazy. Oh, no, I won't cook because I've in my life built a tremendous group of friends and associates, most of whom have been very accomplished. And we have discussion groups, and we talk about things. So mentally, I stay challenged. Physically, I stay challenged. And I'm blessed to have a great family and I just love life.   Dan Seguin  22:20 Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?   Jim Durrell  22:27  Sure.   Dan Seguin  22:28 Okay, sir. What are you reading right now?   Jim Durrell  22:31 I just finished the book. It was the prequel to Pillars of the Earth. So it was very good. I'm also a big John Grissom fan, I have to say. Largely because he does really fascinating stories, but there's always history lessons. He's like Leon Uris used to be, you know, when he was writing that you have a lots of factual history. And around it, they put in the adventure in the story.   Dan Seguin  23:00 The next one is always interesting. What would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?   Jim Durrell  23:08 I have one and I call it "The First Lady."   Dan Seguin  23:10 Who is someone that you truly admire?   Jim Durrell  23:14 I admire so many people. I'm trying to move away out of out of family and oh, it's a rapid fire question. So I know so many accomplished people and I admire. I don't know if there's any one person in particular that I would pick out of, you know, other than within family, honestly.   Dan Seguin  23:32 Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Jim Durrell  23:38 The birth of a child.   Dan Seguin  23:40 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Jim Durrell  23:46 It was staying socially active. I'm a very social animal. And so I refused to have the pandemic control my life. I got all my shots when I should get them. I follow the rules, but I stayed fairly socially active.   Dan Seguin  24:06 Now. We've all been guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?   Jim Durrell  24:16 Yeah, I really enjoyed the Bridgerton I enjoyed Succession. I'm into Yellowstone now. But frankly, I I hardly, it's not a sporting event that I'm interested. I watch very little TV. I just find TV today is not very good. And I'm busy. I'll watch a movie every now and again but doesn't control my life.   Dan Seguin  24:42 Lastly, Jim, what's exciting you about the energy sector right now?   Jim Durrell  24:48 Not a lot. I hate to say this, because I'm a glass half full guy. When I look at the competency of our Senior Management. I'm going to take that question internally. When I see the men and women that are running Hydro Ottawa today, that makes me excited. It gives me confidence. And it's not BS. Our executive team is a highly competent, a group of men and women who really give a damn. And I think do an extremely good job.   Dan Seguin  25:27 Well, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Jim Durrell  25:39 A pleasure, I enjoyed it.   Dan Seguin  25:41 Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests are previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

The electrification of vehicles has been top of mind for not only personal use, but also commercial. What does transitioning traditionally fossil fuel-powered engines—like delivery trucks, buses, and taxis—over to electric power look like, and why are cities pushing for this change? In today’s episode, we speak with Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions to discuss the environmental and economic benefits of fleet electrification.   Related links:  Jim Pegg, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-pegg-4b588b17/ Envari, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/envari/ Envari website: https://envari.com/   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook Keep up with the Tweets    Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today we're moving into the fast lane and talking about converting vehicles that are used for commercial purposes, such as delivery trucks, buses, and taxis away from traditional fossil fuel powered engines to electric power. That's right. We're learning about fleet electrification. So start your electric engines, they're so quiet, and fasten your seat belt because we have a great guest to explore more about this topic. So why are cities greening their fleet. Not only does this shift help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but it also packs a punch in the fight against climate change. The transportation sector is one of the largest contributors of GHG emissions accounting for more than 20% of global emissions. The shift towards EVs, electric vehicles in commercial fleets can significantly reduce these emissions. In fact, the City of Ottawa finds to have an entirely zero emission bus fleet by 2036. While fleet electrification is still in its early stages, it has the potential to play a crucial role in helping Canada reach its 2050 netzero targets, especially as demand speeds up. So here's today's big question: In addition to producing fewer life cycle emissions than traditional vehicles, what are the economic benefits of fleet owners and operators? So buckle up friends today, we have Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Product and Services at Envari Energy Solutions, here to talk to us about the new Star Fleet. Jim, it's a pleasure to have you on our show again. Now, we've been hearing a lot about electrification of vehicles. It's no secret that the government has set some ambitious goals, like the mandate for all new passenger vehicles and light duty trucks to be zero emissions by 2035. But here's what I'm curious about. Jim, what's the scoop when it comes to fleet? I'm talking about city buses, school buses, delivery vehicles and the likes are organizations who manage fleets making that transition as well. And most importantly, why is this shift in the fleet industry so crucial?   Jim Pegg  03:08 Well, it's a great question. So let's say more and more municipalities and large fleet operators are making the transition to electric vehicles, or at least starting to seriously plan out the change. Municipalities are definitely early adopters transitioning to electric vehicles, starting with their late duty fleets. And of course, the big buses. Buses are a big contributor to GHG emissions. So it has a big impact on their pathway. And that zero plans, converting them to zero emission vehicles. You know, it's just a big part of that whole journey. School buses are an important fleet to talk about as well, we can all agree less diesel fumes for our kids, less fumes they breathe in each day that better. There's actually a few studies out there that talk about health benefits for kids switching to electric buses. So you know, light duty fleets, such as delivery fleets are also starting to make the switch. There's definitely more vehicle options available for light duty fleets right now, making it a great place to start and get comfortable with electric vehicles. And importantly, the charging infrastructure that goes with them. And see, you know, the big driver there right now is GHG reduction. So as a result, you know, government grants are out there to accelerate the transition. So it's a good time for any fleet operator to start looking at the change and planning out when it will make the most sense for them. Not only from an environmental point of view, but also from a cost perspective. The grants aren't going to be around forever. And I think that's a big part of the business cases. Right now. There are their savings as well going to electric vehicles. We all see the price of the pumps going up. And there's also operational savings that can be seen with electric vehicles. Bottom line, I'd say fleets produce a huge amount of GHG emissions, converting them to zero emission vehicles will have a tremendously positive impact with lower total cost of ownership. So it's a win-win at the end of the day, the trick is making sure that EVs will meet your fleet's needs. And that's, that's a big part of the questions out there right now.   Dan Seguin  05:07 Now, with all of the benefits described, it sounds like a no brainer to make the transition to an electric fleet. So what's the catch? What are some of the actual challenges that municipalities and businesses are grappling with when it comes to electrifying their fleet vehicles?   Jim Pegg  05:27 Well, with any big change, there's always challenges. In this case, there are a few but with good planning, they are manageable. I'd say, you know, basic conversations we have typically there's seven or so key things that you need to consider. If I were to go through those, I'll try to be brief. But you know, let's start with cost. So electric vehicles, in most cases, do cost more initially. That is why understanding the total cost of ownership is important. Comparing things like maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle, energy cost, gas or diesel versus electricity. Understanding your current costs, versus what they will look like, is important to help justify that increased initial investment. Next up, I'd say vehicle availability. Is there an EV that is comparable to the vehicles that the fleets are using now that will provide the same or better operational functionality? At the end of the day, fleet operators need a solution that allows them to continue successful operation of their fleet, which takes us to the next point, EV charging with EVs. You need to think about how your charging infrastructures are going to work, work physically, do you have the capacity? What charging strategy will you use understanding when you can charge disrupting your operational needs, the cost of EV infrastructure is an important consideration. You know, many fleet operators will need to increase their electricity capacity from their utility. But this needs to be carefully planned, capacity upgrades evolve assets that last 40, 50 and sometimes 60 years. The last thing you want to do is make an investment only to find out you didn't install enough capacity for future projects like building GHG reduction projects, or that you oversize your new service and wasted money at the start. The good news is there are, you know, well thought out ways to approach these problems, proven steps to take you know, those were things to consider and strategies to allow for a phased approach to converting movies. The truth is I could go on for a while on this specific topic. But let's just say, you know, I'd highly recommend any fleet operator out there to talk to someone that does this every day that has an eye for the full picture, not just the EV power needs. But experience will be helpful on this topic. You will learn about things like preconditioning or vehicles in winter and to increase your range and winter for example. So from there, I'd say let's talk about range anxiety. It's another other piece that people think about, and this is a big one. The last thing fleet operators want us to have is vehicles stranded with no power. This is another good reason that the planning stage is so important. Looking at your fleets usage, dwell times, best case and worst case scenarios like winter operation when range is reduced. Modeling your fleet's usage is an important part of the planning process. Bus fleets are a great example of routes, or overall distance traveled in a day that can be somewhat managed and evaluated at the same time. Working to consider changes in fleet needs also important fleets and their usage patterns change every year. And they will, you know for many years to come. Some very good news is there are more and more chargers being installed around the country. This won't replace the need for fleets to have their own chargers, but it will help with some of the fleets that have more unpredictable usage patterns. You know, at the end of the day, let's face it, you have to get to where the work is. So there's lots of things to think about there. Next up, I'd say there's energy cost and reliability, you know, so switching from gas or diesel to electricity means you'll become dependent on your local utility providing electricity in a reliable way. That's why it's so important to connect with your local utility or have a partner that can do that on your behalf. Other strategies such as, you know, on site battery storage, which is great to support cost management, but it may not be the solution for you know, critical fleet reliability, because you know, batteries have very short duration output to them. So onsite power generation may come into play. Again, many things to consider that all work together and understanding your new electricity bill is what's going to look like and ways to reduce those costs will become an ongoing operational need. Having a good energy advisor will support this need and could save fleet operators a significant amount of money. And let's not forget the various grants and funding streams available. Two more that I'd want to touch on would be - maintenance and tooling. EVs require less overall maintenance. But some different expertise might be required. So training staff in a timely manner on how to maintain your fleet, if you do the maintenance in house is an important transition piece, right. Most importantly, how maintenance can be done safely. Electricity can be seen, but proper steps need to be taken to ensure safety. With any new technology or anything related to electricity, safety has always got to be top of mind. And that's a big piece of operators need to make sure they're thinking about depending on the size of their fleet and, and what's going to have to go in the planning around safety to make sure people go home safely at the end of the day. The last thing I think I've talked about I'd say is driver training. Driving an EV, and knowing how to manage your power usage can have a big impact on the success of your fleet. So knowing how to take advantage of regenerative braking, understanding the impacts, they have features such as heating, cooling of your battery, your battery life itself, hard accelerations versus smooth accelerations, I say simply put some of the simple lessons and training can have a really big impact on your fleet success. There's a lot of thought that goes into planning of fleet conversion to electric. But I say that is why experts you know, and maybe a little self plug here - such as Envari, can be relied upon to take on that transition and make that transition as smooth as possible. No two fleets are the same, but combining a fleet operator's knowledge of what they do with an organization that knows and understands electricity is a great way to start to change.   Dan Seguin  11:39 Jim, given these considerations, are there certain types of vehicles that are more suitable for electrification than others? And if so, why?   Jim Pegg  11:50 Well, I would say they're fleets that have vehicles ready now, for electrification. And I'd say there, there are fleets that are still a bit off in the future. You know, at the same time, converting a full fleet day one isn't always a great idea. Dipping a toe in the water sometimes works best. And parallel to that planning and working with a partner who understands the options out there listens to the fleet operators needs. And I can't stress that enough, you have to really take the time to understand the needs of the fleet and all their unique characteristics and understand how they use their fleets. That's a very important piece that needs to be a very collaborative approach. But you know, fleet operators are experts in how they run their fleet. And having someone that knows the electrical side of things is going to help them through those planning studies and implementations can make a really great recipe. Apart from that battery improvements are being developed, new Evie vehicles are on the way. And it won't be long before there are options out there for every fleet - big and small. But I'd say I'd say the vehicle selection, and that analysis is certainly a step that needs to be taken.   Dan Seguin  12:57 What is the current state of charging infrastructure for fleet vehicles? Is the technology there?   Jim Pegg  13:04 So yeah, so it's a charging technology has come a long way. You know, I can remember as far back as maybe 12 years ago installing so many chargers and and they've certainly come a long way since then. You know, the good news, too, is that they're constantly improving. I would say that the charging technology available today is in a good place to support fleet electrification. Options like parallel charging, AC charging DC charging, sequential charging, actually, for large overhead pantograph charging, which is often used on on bus fleets, there's a new standard that was just released that includes sequential charging for pantograph style chargers. And that's that's a big step in the right direction. And even talking about RFID tags, so I mean, the standards and so on are constantly evolving. And there are lots of different industry partners in that ecosystem, trying to make sure things get standardized because that benefits everyone at the end of the day. Bottom line, there are lots of charging options out there. The trick really is understanding which one will work best for your needs, and how to ensure it's flexible so that you can incorporate different chargers down the road. Being a technology agnostic organization, such as ourself [Envari] has really helped us find the best solution for specific applications. And to be clear, often there's a need for a mix of charger sizes and in a strategy behind you know, DC versus AC charging. Often with fleets, you want to rely a lot more on DC charging rather than relying on the rectification on the vehicle. DC does not have to mean big fast chargers people often think of level three, you know 100 kilowatt, 50 kilowatt chargers with DC chargers, you can get you know 24 kilowatt DC chargers there that are reliable and made by very reputable OEMs, so...   Dan Seguin  14:55 Being an EV owner myself, I can confirm that our cold Canadian winters pose certain challenges when it comes to battery life. Is this something to be aware of? And how can organizations mitigate any issues?   Jim Pegg  15:11 So I would say yes, it is true that the cold weather has an impact on batteries, you know, depending on where you are on the globe, there are different weather patterns and so on. But cold weather certainly has an impact on batteries, and the range needed of those batteries. Currently, there are a few ways to tackle this. One is something called preconditioning, meaning having your vehicle plugged in while it's warming up in the morning, and you can actually automate that to take place at a certain time. And it can help maintain the battery's range for that day. So that that can have a really big impact. The other factor, you know, is what we talked about a little bit earlier was a driver training. Simple things like understanding the impact of few degrees of heat can have or how people actually drive smooth versus hard accelerations.All those things have an impact on the range you get out of your battery. The good news is with upfront planning, these issues can be managed to a point where they're not issues at all, and if if more public chargers come along each year, the certainty around getting from point A to B, to C to D to E to F, and G o get stronger and stronger. There's also a lot of work going into battery technology itself that will help with cold climates as well as the speed at which batteries can be recharged without causing increased battery degradation. The risk right now is if you know fleets of vehicles are out there and they're constantly having to use fast chargers and higher power chargers on their vehicles on the smaller size fleets that can have a damaging impact on your battery life. But there's a lot of technology going into working on that. But again, with good planning and understanding of a fleets needs, there are certainly ways to plan around those issues.   Dan Seguin  16:56 We're all aware that electricity rates can vary based on the number of different factors such as time of day, the season, the customer class, etc. How can fleet operators effectively manage these fluctuations to optimize charging and minimize costs?   Jim Pegg  17:15 So you know, electricity rates are going to be a changing landscape over the coming years as, as I'd say, governments and regulators look for ways to encourage electrification, while at the same time managing infrastructure costs related to distributing power. So, you know, that said, we're also in a time of machine learning and in AI, meaning software is going to play a big part in optimizing charging schedules. There are some great organizations out there that specialize in this exact type of software, you know, pair that with the knowledge of the electricity rate structure in your area, and you can find some very effective ways to manage your electricity costs. The risk is also there, you know, if you do not plan for electricity costs and manage them on an ongoing basis, your cost could quickly increase versus an optimized scenario. You know, for example, in Ontario, there's something called global adjustment. And knowing how to manage your global adjustment costs will have a big impact on your electricity bill. Now, there's a balance. First, and most importantly, a fleet needs to operate as a fleet. So you know, a good partner will work with you to optimize your costs based on your fleet needs, and then work to educate and support fleet operators on what changes they could make to their fleet operations. That would result in some cost savings or significant cost savings. But with the changing landscape, it's something that has to be an ongoing effort for sure.   Dan Seguin  18:45 Okay, Jim, how do government policies and regulations impact the electrification of fleets?   Jim Pegg  18:53 Yeah, well, I guess I'd say there's a few ways one of the big ones is government noting that all vehicles sold as of a certain date and time will need to be zero emission vehicles, which means fleets will have to look at vehicles other than the gas and diesel options that they use now when as their fleets come to end of life. So as they're looking to replace their fleets, they're gonna have to think about what vehicles are actually going to be sold and available as they get to those different points in time. You know, the cost of electricity and distribution rates and rate design will have an impact on the total cost of ownership as we just talked about for EV fleets. You know, in other areas such as manufacturing, you know, different Import/Export policies, trade agreements with other countries, mining policies, all those different things can impact the production of EV vehicles. And, you know, right to its core, the availability of vehicles, which is obviously a big need.   Dan Seguin  19:50 Okay, sir, how about funding? Are there any incentive programs out there and how can they help those who might be considering like implication   Jim Pegg  20:01 There is funding out there right now for things such as charging infrastructure, and in some cases to support the cost delta between traditional vehicles and EVs. A couple of examples, I'd say we have the Zero Emission Transit Fund, which supports municipal bus fleet electrification, as well as school bus electrification. There's actually two parts to that one in particular, I believe it's up to 80% of the planning costs covered. And for your actual capital investments, I believe it's up to 50%, with some fairly high caps there. So there's quite a bit of funding available there. Another example would be the Canadian Infrastructure Bank is offering low interest loans to help with that initial upfront investment that's required. And we're seeing other various grant programs. There is NRCan, there's ZEVIP program which has had various phases to it as well to help support electric charging. So I mean, there's different programs coming out. And that is also a bit of an ongoing thing that we have to watch constantly and, and be ready for. And it can be a bit of a process to go through some of the applications. But once you understand the process, it becomes much simpler. And I mean, having someone to work with to do that with you, you can have a lot of success there. Each program has its own rules and requirements to apply. But I can say from firsthand experience, the funding is there. It is accessible, we've had great success, getting many of our customers some, some really great funding.   Dan Seguin  21:36 Okay, now, time to take out your crystal ball, Jim. What's the future of fleet electrification, and how do you see it evolving in the coming years?   Jim Pegg  21:49 Yeah, I mean, this is one that the engineering team and everyone loves to chat about while having the morning coffee. I think we'll see more and more advancement in battery technology. And I touched on that a bit earlier,  and the charging technology along with that, and more creative ways to leverage the stored energy of multiple vehicles connected at multiple locations. I really think there's going to be some sort of an overlay where we're really able to leverage all of these different, essentially battery packs, all over the place. And then on top of that, I think as we touched on earlier, more and more vehicle options and innovation and vehicles. And in some cases, people may have to think about reframing how they use their vehicles. And hopefully, it's always for the positive, right? At the end of the day, fleet operators need to be able to run their businesses, and then continue moving forward in a profitable way. So the technology needs to be there to support that, ultimately, to help with that transition.   Dan Seguin  22:51 Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Jim, are you ready?   Jim Pegg  23:00 Let's go for it.   Dan Seguin  23:01 Okay. What are you reading right now?   Jim Pegg  23:04 Spare by Prince Harry.   Dan Seguin  23:06 Jim, what would you name your boat? If you had one?   Jim Pegg  23:11 The Tin Can.   Dan Seguin  23:13 Now, who is someone that you admire?   Jim Pegg  23:17 To give a shout out here to my wife. She's an incredible spouse. She's a mother. She's a business owner, and she does it all! She does it very well.   Dan Seguin  23:26 That's cool. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Jim Pegg  23:34 Oh, I think there's real magic that happens out there every day. But I'm going to fall right into the birth of my son, I think will always be at the top of my list. Seeing that happen. That's magic.   Dan Seguin  23:48 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Jim Pegg  23:54 So on a personal level, I think it's probably something a lot of people can relate to that have young kids, I think it was a tough couple of years and keeping my son on track with, you know, sort of the progression of education, missing a couple of really crucial years in there was it was difficult, but happy to say we've got some awesome teachers in the school system here and he's just getting back on track. And I think that though it was a big challenge.   Dan Seguin  24:26 Okay, now, we've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?   Jim Pegg  24:35 Oh, anything Star Wars, anything Star Wars at all! I watch the whole series, you know, the Mandalorian? All of it. I love it all!   Dan Seguin  24:45 Lastly, Jim, what's exciting you about your industry right now?   Jim Pegg  24:50 Yeah, this is where I would geek out a little bit and say "what's not exciting?" Right now, you know, we're going through some major transitions. I'd say with the technology that we have, and on all the changes happening, there's collaboration like never before, really. Seeing new technology coming out constantly. It's an exciting time, I'd say to be an engineer, and to work with a team of engineers. And I have to say, I have the pleasure of working with the greatest group of engineers there is. Everyone from building mechanical lighting, electrical engineers, all the drive and passion for their work like no other group I've seen. I think it's just an exciting time.   Dan Seguin  25:28 Jim, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or the organization, how can they connect?   Jim Pegg  25:42 Yeah, well, thank you for having me, I'd say check out our website: envari.com. And just reach out through there and we're happy to reach out and have conversations. Always happy to discuss this topic and many more.   Dan Seguin  25:57 Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Jim Pegg  26:03 Absolutely. Always a pleasure.   Dan Seguin  26:05 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkingenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

Canada’s electric vehicle industry sparks interest, as the government aims at selling only zero-emission vehicles by 2035. It’s a chance to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and improve air quality, while also developing a sustainable electricity and transportation system. Canada has invested in EV manufacturing, infrastructure and batteries. But is it enough? Emma Jarratt, award-winning investigative journalist and the Executive Editor at Electric Autonomy Canada, weighs in on episode 112 of thinkenergy.     Related links   Emma Jarratt, Website: https://emmajarratt.wordpress.com/  Emma Jarratt, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-jarratt-ba552727/  Emma Jarratt, Twitter: https://twitter.com/Em_CRJ  Electric Autonomy Canada: https://electricautonomy.ca/ Project Arrow: https://projectarrow.ca/ To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets ----------------------- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Canada is on the brink of a transportation revolution, as it transitions to electric. With the goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and improving air quality, the Canadian government has set a target of selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035. This transition presents a number of challenges and opportunities. But there's one thing for certain it's an exciting time for Canada's electric vehicle industry. The demand for electric vehicles is growing exponentially in Canada, as more people are embracing the technology to reduce their carbon footprint and improve air quality. This has created a unique opportunity for automakers and entrepreneurs to bring new and innovative electric vehicle models and technology to market. Strides were made in 2022, which saw Canada's public charging installations grow by a whopping 30%. The government has committed to investing in public charging infrastructure, and private companies are also stepping up to meet the demand. The shift to electric mobility will no doubt transform Canada's energy sector, which will require a significant increase in electricity demand, and bring with it more renewable energy and innovation. Electric vehicles present an opportunity for Canada to develop a more resilient and sustainable electricity and transportation system, not to mention the untold economic benefits. So here's today's big question: There's been a lot of announcements in the past year about investments Canada is making in EV manufacturing, infrastructure, and critical minerals needed for batteries. Is it enough to make Canada a superpower in this space and meet its 2035 target? Joining us today is Emma Jarrett, an award winning investigative journalist with a focus on green energy, the electric transportation sector and politics. She worked for some of Canada's largest news outlets, including CTV, the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail. Currently, she's the executive director of Electric Autonomy Canada, Emma, so great to have you join us today. Emma, how did you first become interested in electric vehicles and clean energy? And what led you to your current role as the executive editor of electric autonomy Canada?   Emma Jarrett  03:07 So, fun fact, I know very little about cars. If you ask me what the torque or the HP or like the drag on something is, I will give you a blank stare because I just don't know. It's never been a huge interest for me. But what I do care about and what my professional and personal background is is health, environment, resources, politics, the economy.You know, I have a little bit of power generation knowledge. So all to say that EV adoption touches all of that; it actually has very little to do with cars. So I fell into this job. Actually, I was freelancing, and I was approached to freelance for electric autonomy when it first started up, and it was a really nice partnership, and it became a full time gig.   Dan Seguin  04:01 Cool. Can you give us a bit of background on Electric Autonomy, Canada?   Emma Jarrett  04:07 Sure. So the company was founded in 2019, we actually just turned four. Our founder, Nino Dakara, started the news platform because he saw that Canada was just falling behind on EV adoption compared to other countries. You know, at that point, Norway would have been, you know, mid hockey stick up to very, very high levels of adoption, and Canada just wasn't doing much. And so he identified this issue and pinpointed that one of the big bottlenecks to adoption is lack of education. There was just this dearth of information for Canada and Canadian businesses making these decisions. So that was where Electric Autonomy came. And we exist to fill that knowledge gap.   Dan Seguin  04:49 Now, what do you see as the biggest challenges facing the electric vehicle industry in Canada today? And how do you see these challenges being addressed in the coming years?   Emma Jarrett  05:02 So the EV industry always exists I think with this, like an existential crisis happening, we're building, well I'm not part of it, but the industry is building itself from the ground up almost. And making a combustion vehicle is very different from making an electric vehicle. So yes, there is an existing auto sector in Canada with lots of tier one parts and manufacturers. But essentially, you're rebuilding something in the best case scenario, and most of the time, you're just building from the ground up, particularly when it comes to batteries and building that supply chain. So, that's just an ongoing challenge, you know, imagine building a house and then multiply that by like 2 billion. And that's what, you know, the scale of what this is. So the daily acute challenge, though, I think, at this moment is supply of vehicles, they're just not enough to match the demand and the interest from the public. And that's proving incredibly frustrating for everybody from manufacturers who, you know, know that they're not providing to scale what people are looking for, and to customers on the flip side who've been waiting very long times, in some cases to get their vehicles to address them. I mean, these are growing pains, my hope is that they will work out as things become more established as more pieces of the supply chain fall into place and come up and running. But no, I mean, there are going to be some really big troubleshooting events that have to happen before everyone feels like okay, we're, we're ticking along here.   Dan Seguin  06:31 How has the COVID 19 pandemic impacted the electric vehicle market in Canada? And what changes do you anticipate in the near future?   Emma Jarrett  06:40 I hate to say supply chains because everyone has been blaming supply chains. But it was a huge blow to the auto industry in general. I mean, the early days of the pandemic, like factories were shut down for weeks and months, no one was producing anything, whether it ran on a battery, or a combustion engine. That was a massive problem for the industry. So you know, that just had to be weather really, COVID. And obviously, the government's had to step in with subsidies to keep the industries as they were, you know, variously impacted afloat, man. And there was a psychological side too, for people when you think the world is ending, and that you don't know what's going to happen next. And you're so worried about everybody getting sick, and you can't go anywhere and see anybody! Do you care about buying a car? Probably not. So, you know, we know from the numbers that, you know, purchases of vehicles went down a lot during COVID, which I think is a pretty understandable and natural reaction to the bigger world events that we're playing out. Now, the retail industrial complex is rebounding. And perhaps what we will see in the near future is people taking stock of their ability to have an impact on their health and the health of their neighbors and those around them. I don't think any of us want to live or another COVID. Not to say that vehicles are in any way responsible or impactful on COVID. But it does speak to you know, we want to live in a healthy, sustainable clean planet, and EVs are this a bad pun. But they're a vehicle to do that. They're one piece of the puzzle to help achieve a way of living that is just better for everybody.   Dan Seguin  08:20 There's been a lot of news and announcements made recently. Can you talk about what stands out for you as the most notable electric vehicle projects or initiatives currently underway in Canada that you're excited about? And maybe, why?   Emma Jarrett  08:36 Sure. So I think everyone stops and takes an extra pause when you hear there's a factory worth billions and billions of dollars going in. And that's, you know, maybe the third or fourth announcement of that type you've heard in a few months, it's really quite remarkable. The industry that's been attracted by the new investments that are coming into Canada, it's almost unprecedented. So to see that play out, in real time to get to cover it, you know, it's a privilege. It's very interesting. For me, I learned a lot every single day. And I think that, you know, the bird's eye view of the situation is that this is a real moment in our history. We're building a supply chain in this country that we've never had before. And it's going to be very interesting when we're looking back on it to see what kind of a fork in the road it represents for Canada that we seize this opportunity. What I'm most excited about with the announcements is the supply chain as a whole and decarbonizing that. So it's great that we have factories that make batteries, but it would be better if they were all powered by non emitting electricity. And it would be fantastic if the trucks that brought the refined minerals to those factories to go into the batteries were zero emission trucks and the mining vehicles that pulled the minerals brought out of the ground were all electric That, to me is the big piece of this, you know, the whole supply chain needs to be decarbonized.   Dan Seguin  10:06 Okay, Emma, the 2023 Federal Budget announced billions of tax credits and financing to attract investments in manufacturing, energy and tech sectors. Can you unpack some of the highlights that stood out for you in the budget as it relates to electric mobility or maybe clean energy?   Emma Jarrett  10:26 Sure. So the big question with this year's budget was, how is it going to respond to the United States inflation Reduction Act, which was, you know, a $369 billion omnibus bill. And you know, is it is going to squash Canada flat, we just don't have that kind of economic power at that scale. So when the budget came out this year, I think everyone was very surprised and tentatively impressed if it rolls out the way some of the politicians are saying it will. That for the EV industry and clean tech, you know, we can go toe to toe with the US using $55 billion, which is, you know, less than a quarter of what the US is spending. So that was just interesting. And I don't know enough about economic gymnastics to be able to say one way or the other if this is going to be a success, but it's an interesting strategy. And I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Aside from the IRA maneuvers, I was really pleased to see a new tax credit come up for decarbonisation of Canada's grids. $25.7 billion in tax credits to move towards sustainable, renewable, in most cases, sources of energy. And as an extension of that also smart peak management, you know, with battery storage, and better load prediction and understanding, I think that's really important.   Dan Seguin  11:59 Now, your coverage and knowledge of the electric mobility industry is extensive. What are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 targets?   Emma Jarrett  12:13 We have a very long way to go. I don't think we can pretend otherwise, the steps that are being taken are encouraging. But this is a really, really big ship to turn. I think the targets are possible to meet, I don't think they were unreasonable or pie in the sky. I really do think that it is achievable whether or not it happens. Who can say, I hope so. And I think that whenever I hear somebody saying, you know, being pushed too fast or they're naysaying the targets, I go, okay, fair, but can you tell me then what you think the alternative is to not meeting them? We're looking at a pretty stark future environmentally if action is not taken. And I am always of the opinion that some action is better than sitting there and doing nothing.   Dan Seguin  13:03 Okay. How do you think Canada's clean energy and climate policies are impacting the development and adoption of electric vehicles? And what changes would you like to see in the policy landscape?   Emma Jarrett  13:17 I think the government is sending a very clear signal, whether they're saying it outright, or they're using funding and grants and incentives that they want to de-risk EV adoption and venture into the EV landscape, whether that comes in the form of manufacturing or charging. So I think that that's quite a powerful signal to the private commercial world, everyone is still nervous about how this will go. It's not small amounts of money that companies are talking about here, if it goes sideways, it could sink them. So I think that helps to have that sense of, you know, the government saying, we're not going to abandon you, we're going to try to help where we can, but that's sort of like ledger books and dollars and cents, people are much trickier. Openness to buying an Eevee is very subjective. And you know, times that by 38 million. like every Canadian will have their own reason for buying or not buying an EV. Investments in rebates and better EV education and charging infrastructure and just making it more visible and, and more widely available is really helpful. And that is what is being done, but there's still people who want to switch. So how do you reach them? I think that there are probably much smarter people than me, you know, consumer insights and into you know, strategies there. But, you know, we may be in a position in the future where we've seen a lot of carrots being given as of late very few sticks. And there might be policies that make it really unappealing and de incentivize people to own a combustion vehicle,it might come down to that, I don't know.   Dan Seguin  14:59 Okay, Emma, follow up question here. What are other countries doing right that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?   Emma Jarrett  15:09 Where we see the highest number of EVs being bought and adoption rates that are, you know, nearly at 100%: your Norway's, your Iceland's and Sweden's of the world. Those countries that they have in common, they're smaller than Canada, like 100%, they're way smaller. It is a different and perhaps easier task to switch a more compact size country over to EVs sooner. However, they also just have a different societal perspective than we have, like a different social conscience. Citizens of those countries tend to embrace moving in sync together for the greater good, rather than, you know, the haves doing really, really well. And the have-nots being left behind, which is what we tend and see more towards here. I think it's an age-old question. Every politician, every grassroots activist has wondered and asked themselves, you know, the question of how do we get everyone to buy into this thing that we want them to do? There is no easy answer. But I think that we've seen in history, countries that band together to do something because they just believe it's the right thing. And it will net benefit as most people tend to do better. And at the end of the day, if we don't do anything, or we don't do enough, everyone in Canada will suffer because of climate change. We already know that there are pockets of the country that are acutely suffering more than others right now. But at the end of the day, it will be a universal problem for everybody.   Dan Seguin  16:35 Now, what do you believe are the most important factors driving the transition to electric mobility in Canada?   Emma Jarrett  16:44 We always come back to a few pillars, which is, you know, education is right up there just understanding demystifying this technology. I mean, these are not like spaced hovercraft, that you need a special license to learn how to drive, they're just a car. So education is really key. Just getting people familiar with the technology, access to the vehicles to test drive is really important. Because this is technology on wheels, it's cars now or computers on wheels. So think of one of the most successful tech brands in the world, Apple, what does Apple do really well? They have stores everywhere, and you get to go in and there are tables and tables of all of their stuff. And you can hold it and feel it and play with it. And that's what needs to happen with vehicles, particularly EVs. They're new, and people are interested, but they need to test it out first, and we've seen rebates and then purchase incentives be effective as well. These vehicles are more expensive right now everyone hopes and is anticipating those costs will come down. But until they do that will make it more likely that you'll get more people into them. If you can help with the costs. Maybe not everybody needs a rate rebate, but certainly some people do.   Dan Seguin  17:54 What role do you see Canadian businesses and entrepreneurs playing in the development of electric vehicle technologies and infrastructure? And what opportunities do you see for Canadian companies in this space?   Emma Jarrett  18:11 Since I started reporting for electric autonomy, I've had the most wonderful education and what it is that's actually made in Canada. And coming into this four years ago, I had no idea that we have the auto sector that we do outside of, you know, Windsor, basically. We make cars in Windsor, but the parts and the tier one suppliers, and the tiny little bits of the vehicle that nobody ever cares about, or knows about unless they break, so many of them are made here. And then we have the IP side, which has just flourished in the last few years with excellent talent coming, you know, out of the universities or into Canada from around the world. And the ecosystem is incredibly robust. We have an example of what entirely made in Canada talent can do with the project arrow. I don't know if you're familiar with that. But the APMA the Auto Parts and Manufacturers Association spent, I think it was three years - Yeah, three years, building from the ground up, a concept vehicle that is entirely made in Canada IP. Every part, every piece of technology, every self driving - driver assist feature on it came from Canadian talent. They had hundreds and hundreds of bids from across the country for companies to participate in the car and it's an incredible body of work. And it's such a good example of what is possible coming out of Canada.   Dan Seguin  19:46 Very cool. Okay. Now, what advice do you have for individuals who are interested in transitioning to electric vehicles but are still hesitant or unsure about the technology?   Emma Jarrett  20:00 Well, I would say that there are a couple of things you can do. First is, do you know anybody with an EV? Well enough to ask them, Hey, can you take me for a drive in it or even better? Let me go around the block a few times. If you don't have anybody in your life who owns an EV then there are every society chapters all across the country, you should look one up in your community or close by our community. And they are incredibly generous. It's just a collection of people who are really passionate about EV education and one of their favorite things to do is to get people into EVs. So it's not an over asked to see if you can have a drive ins in someone's car, educate yourself on how the EV works to demystify, you know, the power train, understand the the battery that is in the vehicle is really just an extra extra large version of what's already in your phone or your computer. It's just done on a bigger scale. So I think, oh, and as well charging, definitely educate yourself on the charging of your vehicle, because that's, you know, routinely something that is a stumbling block for potential buyers is "How am I going to charge this thing." If you're, if you don't live in a detached home where you have, you know, room on your panel to put in a Level 2 charger, you're gonna have to do a bit of homework to understand how you'll navigate that, and there are lots of options and lots of resources available.   Dan Seguin  21:29 Okay Emma, how do we make electric mobility and electrification equitable, and accessible for everyone to participate in? What's needed for all Canadians to buy in?   Emma Jarrett  21:42 Well, I don't know what's in it for all Canadians to buy in, in terms of what will sway someone to buy an EV or not, what is a convincing argument for me might not be for my neighbor. But to make it equitable, I hope that charging providers are really sensitive to and mindful of where they're rolling out charging, and not just concentrating it in specific pockets where adoption is really high. But instead making sure that there's an even spread so that everyone feels like they have access to the infrastructure, they need to power their vehicles, cost of the vehicles in and of themselves is always a recurring concern. I don't know what else there is to do at this point, with certainly a federal rebate in place available to all Canadians and most provinces and territories offering some form of a rebate to add on top of the federal one, rather than waiting for the cost to come down. And from conversations with manufacturers, that's something that everyone is quite mindful of. Carmakers want to sell cars, and the better the price, the more cars they'll sell. So it's not something they're oblivious to. It's just waiting for the supply chain to solidify so that it's not as costly to make the battery which remains the most expensive part of the vehicle. We do.   Dan Seguin  22:57 Okay, another follow up question for you. I'm looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach. Are you hopeful?   Emma Jarrett  23:05 I'm an impatient person by nature. So I would, I would always like to see it go faster. But I am hopeful that we are taking the right steps as a country. And I just hope that there are more to come that this isn't, you know, okay, we've done what we can and let the chips fall where they may, I hope that we continue to see just a rolling evolution as the temperature keeps being taken of what people need to make them comfortable switching over to a zero emission vehicle. So I am cautiously optimistic, I would say.   Dan Seguin  23:42 Okay, a personal question, Emma, if you don't mind. As an award winning journalist, given all of the stories, you've covered people you've met, and where you've been, what has been your most memorable and why?   Emma Jarrett  23:59 So in 20, what year would have been 2014, the war in Syria was really picking up steam. And I was already in Norway for a reporting stint. I was there for a few months. And at the end of it, I hopped on a flight and went to Turkey, traveled to the Turkish border of Syria, and stayed there for a week covering aspects of the conflict that I could from there. And I spoke with, you know, tons of, mostly children of varying ages, who had been evacuated from Syria to receive medical treatment in this small town called Rohanley. And that was a very formative experience for me. That was the closest I've ever been to a war, certainly very, very distressing to see people and kids lying in beds who are not much younger than me. I was, I was in my early 20s At the time, and also very inspiring to see that, you know, the doctors and the, you know, people who people who had never been in medicine before coming up with these incredible ideas to help these people who have been wounded, I ended up at a prosthetics clinic, a group of I mean, they were teenagers, they they had liked robotics when they were in school. And some of them might have had like one or two years of engineering behind them at university before the conflict broke out. And they started making prosthetics at this clinic for everybody who had lost limbs. And it was really incredible to see on many different levels, and it's always stayed with me.   Dan Seguin  25:46 Thank you for sharing this. Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I hope you're ready.   Emma Jarrett  25:56 Ready!   Dan Seguin  25:57 What are you reading right now Emma?   Emma Jarrett  25:59 I'm just about to start a new book by Tamara Cherry who is a journalist on trauma informed reporting. So it's telling the story in a way that's not re victimizing the people you're interviewing. Very excited about, I've heard great things.   Dan Seguin  26:15 Okay, um, what would you name your boa if you had one?   Emma Jarrett  26:19 I do not have a boat. I tend to get quite seasick. So I think I would have to go with like, the Hurley Girly or Hold the Waves, like something a bit tongue and cheek, but definitely I would much prefer that the boat either be on dry land, or very firmly tied to the dock.   Dan Seguin  26:37 Who is someone you admire?   Emma Jarrett  26:41 I don't have any public figures that jumped to mind. But I'm going to be very trite and say that I have so many wonderful people in my life that just bring me so much joy and challenge me and who have done amazing things in their own lives. And I just admire my friends, my family, my colleagues, that I'm just incredibly lucky that way.   Dan Seguin  27:04 Nice. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Emma Jarrett  27:10 Probably my pregnancies.   Dan Seguin  27:12 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Emma Jarrett  27:18 I was very lucky during the pandemic. I don't think a lot of people can say that they rode it out as well as I did in terms of, you know, getting to keep going with my everyday life. I've worked from home anyway, so it didn't hit me in the same way that it hit other people. But I think it was hard just being out and about and seeing the joylessness and the fear on everybody's faces all the time. You know, everyone is in masks, of course, and everyone's eyes had that same look of just really, really distressed - that was hard.   Dan Seguin  27:52 Okay, We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?   Emma Jarrett  28:00 I will usually always have Downton Abbey on in the background. I'm just a sucker for slow moving British TV with lots of horseback riding.   Dan Seguin  28:09 Now, lastly, what is exciting you Emma about your industry right now?   Emma Jarrett  28:16 It's exciting to watch history unfold in real time. I have this sense that, you know, in 20 years, we're all going to look back on this and think wow, that was a really cool thing to live through. And I'm fortunate because my job allows me basically to keep a diary - terrible diaries to my personal life but through reporting you know, I have story after story of my own and my colleagues just chronicling this massive societal transition, and I think it's going to be the neatest Time Capsule down the road.   Dan Seguin  28:49 Well, Emma this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect?   Emma Jarrett  29:03 I am on most social medias that happened before 2020. I do not understand Tik Tok. So please don't look for me there. But Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Electric Autonomy website. I'm easy to reach on all those platforms.   Dan Seguin  29:22 Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Emma Jarrett  29:28  It did. Thank you.   Dan Seguin  29:30 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

We’re on the road to net zero by 2050, driven by multiple levels of government. But what about sustainable development of our natural resources, including clean energy? Is it possible to meet net-zero goals and secure a prosperous future? Natural Resources Canada thinks so, with initiatives to help provinces and territories reduce greenhouse gas emissions and support their economic priorities. Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada, joins thinkenergy episode 111 to share how.   Related links   Debbie Scharf, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbiescharf/  Natural Resources Canada: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/  Regional Energy and Resource Tables: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/climate-change/regional-energy-and-resource-tables/24356  Sustainable Jobs Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jobs/training/initiatives/sustainable-jobs/plan.html  2030 Emissions Reduction Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/environment/weather/climatechange/climate-plan/climate-plan-overview/emissions-reduction-2030.html To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets on Twitter ------------- Transcipt: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is the think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In Canada, the energy sector is going through a major transition. As a nation, Canada has set ambitious targets to reach net zero emissions by 2050, and has made a commitment to prioritize the environment and climate action. Multiple levels of government and government agencies play an integral role in Canada's Net Zero initiative. So who is developing policies and programs to promote the sustainable development of Canada's natural resources, including clean energy? Natural Resources Canada is at the forefront of Canada's movement, working on initiatives that empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities while reducing greenhouse gas emissions through regional priorities and projects that align with Canada's netzero goals. Recently, the Royal Bank of Canada stated that the electricity sector is netzero already, but notes that it will require doubling, maybe even tripling the electricity output that currently exists today. This requires not only addressing the technical and economic challenges of transitioning to clean energy, but also creating social and cultural change. So here is today's big question. Can Canada successfully achieve its netzero goals, while creating a sustainable and prosperous future for all Canadians? Joining me today is Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada. In her role, Debbie is responsible for spearheading one of the Government of Canada's signature Energy Initiative, the transformation of regional energy systems through the regional energy and resources tables. She also oversees the sector's electricity resources branch, and the Energy Policy and International branch, both of which are integral to the Government of Canada central energy initiatives to realize a netzero future. Debbie, so great to have you join us today. Perhaps you can start by telling our listeners about Natural Resources Canada, better known as NRCan, and its objectives.   Debbie Scharf  02:54 Yeah. So Dan, thanks so much for inviting me here today, it's really great to talk a little bit about some of these issues with yourself and for your listeners. So NRCan is one of many federal departments. But our role specifically, is to work to improve the life of Canadians by ensuring our natural resources are developed sustainably, hence the name of our department. And we do this in ways for example, supporting climate change mitigation and advancing the net to zero transition using our natural resources to provide a source of jobs prosperity and opportunity for Canadians, of course, preserving our environment and those natural resources and respecting and engaging with indigenous peoples towards economic reconciliation. And so that really sums up very much the heart of what NRCan is about.   Dan Seguin  03:38 How is Natural Resources Canada integral to Canada's initiative to achieve a netzero future?   Debbie Scharf  03:46 Yeah, well, I'd say NRCan is pretty integral because 80% plus of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions comes from producing and using energy, and NRCan Canada's the department responsible for energy, at least federally. And so we play a very, very important role in the journey to get to net zero. And we try to use all of the tools that we have available as a department, which includes things like policies and regulations, funding programs, science partnerships, to help shape and accelerate that transition. And you know what, we're not just focused on emissions, we often talk about emissions when we talk about the net zero transition. But we also think a lot at NRCan, about how to create new economic opportunities that will create jobs for Canadians, good paying sustainable jobs, and to position Canadian businesses to be the supplier of choice for energy globally, and provide those energy services and security to the rest of the world. I just will say one thing and I said the point federally is because energy is a shared jurisdiction in this country, and that is pretty important. So as a department, part of an integral role of what we do is working collaboratively with our provincial and territorial counterparts and indigenous partners to do the work that we do and of course with a variety of stakeholders across the country.   Dan Seguin  04:58 Debbie now With respect to the environment and climate action, what is Canada already doing right?   Debbie Scharf  05:07 Well, I would say the one thing that is worth noting as a starting point is that over the past few decades, we've seen a decoupling of economic growth and GHG emissions. And I think that really speaks to the fact that there are things that are going right when it comes to energy and climate. There have been a number of technology improvements that we've seen regulations that have been implemented. And of course, although not under the purview of NRCan, a pollution carbon charge or tax that has been applied across the country, all of which have helped to tackle emissions and to help get them on a different trajectory. And so I do think that we're on the right track, I do, if you don't mind, highlight three kinds of sets of things that we're doing when we talk about, are we doing things right, and the first one is putting in place a plan. Now, the Government of Canada put in place a series of climate plans, but most recently, the emissions reductions plan in 2022. Because if you don't have a roadmap, to know where you want to go, and how you're going to get there, how are you going to know if you're achieving success, and you're doing the right things? So I think putting in place a really solid plan that gives us that roadmap has been something we're doing right. The other important thing is getting the right investment? How do you attract investment into the sorts of industries and technologies that we need to see Canada prosper as we move to net zero. And the most recent federal budget with a number of tax credits, which I'm sure we'll get into over the course of our chat, is an area where we're sort of moving the bar around Investment Attraction and collaboration. As I said, before shared jurisdiction, we are not doing anything in this country, when it comes to climate and energy and less we are working in partnership with other jurisdictions and with a broad range of stakeholders, and of course, our indigenous partners.   Dan Seguin  06:41 Okay, now, you've taken a new and prominent role as the Assistant Deputy Minister for NRCan, can you tell us a bit more about your role?   Debbie Scharf  06:52 Yeah. And I feel very privileged to be in this role at NRCan and enjoying it very much. So in my particular role, I'm focused on transforming Canada's energy system, through policies, programs and regulatory solutions to try and get to that net zero economy, but very critically, while ensuring affordability, reliability, and security of energy. So it's a bit of a trifecta set of outcomes that we're driving towards, and how you bring all of that together is really at the heart of what my role is, and NRCan and I oversee a large variety of files. But just to highlight a few that may be interesting. First, I'm responsible for the electricity sector and nuclear fuel cycle issues. Within the federal family, we have our resource, regional energy and resource tables, which are new collaborative partnerships with provinces and territories. And I'm happy to talk a bit about that to advance economic opportunities. Of course, the recently launched sustainable jobs plan, very connected to how we transform our industries and create those jobs. And so we provide leadership around that we do some international work on equity, diversity and inclusion, because we want to build the right energy sector of the future. And we do things like just providing that core energy data to Canadians, like our energy Factbooks. So people can understand the energy sector in Canada. So those are all things that I do in my sector, amongst other things.   Dan Seguin  08:09 Great segue here. Okay. So you're spearheading the regional energy and resources table? What is their purpose specifically?   Debbie Scharf  08:18 So that's a great question. So the regional tables are a really different approach that the federal government is taking, and they're very focused on how do you drive economic benefit and economic prosperity in the context of transitioning to net zero? And when it comes to a country like Canada? And when it comes to energy? Where you live matters. A Quebecer is not facing the same type of issues as someone in Alberta, or British Columbia, or Prince Edward Island. And so energy is a very regional issue, the challenges that each region of the country will face in the transition is different. And frankly, the economic opportunities in each region of the country are also going to look a little bit different. And so the regional tables are really about how do we accelerate those economic opportunities on a jurisdiction or regional basis, understanding that these issues are going to be felt differently depending on where you live. And if I can quote Minister Wilkinson, just for one moment, although he's not subject to this podcast, it is, it is a very key comment. He talks about the need to be strategic, ambitious, and collaborative. And those are really the words that I would use to describe what underpins what we're trying to achieve with regional tables.   Dan Seguin  09:26 Can you help me better understand how the regional tables will empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities?   Debbie Scharf  09:36 Yeah, that's a great question. So the starting point for the regional tables, regardless of what jurisdiction we're talking to you, is to decide on a small number of priority areas where we think that as government's working with indigenous partners and stakeholders, we can accelerate and make demonstrable progress in the near term and into the future. So we can't do everything under the sun, but we find three or four priority sectors are priority areas where the province or the territory would like to partner with the federal government to accelerate progress. So that is really the starting point. And then the goal is as governments, how can we align our resources, our timelines, or decision making our regulatory processes to accelerate the development of those priority areas, i.e. those industries. And as governments, we have a tremendous ability to do that better, to be able to make that kind of progress. And so very tangibly, it's really about coming together and having discussions around, okay, if I'm British Columbia, and I want to build a hydrogen economy, what stands in the way of doing that? What would be our objectives around what we'd like to see happen in British Columbia? And what are the sorts of tangible actions we can take together to be able to accelerate that progress. And that is really step one, there's, there's more steps to the regional table, that there's very, that is very much step one, to be able to move these forward. And that's very much where we're focusing our efforts right now.   Dan Seguin  10:54 Okay, let's get just a bit in the weeds here. Debbie, can you tell our listeners more about who the participants are at the regional tables, besides the federal, provincial and territorial governments?   Debbie Scharf  11:06 Yeah. And so, you know, the theme of collaboration, I think, will be a thread throughout many of my answers, but collaboration isn't very there. And partnership, frankly, is a very important part of the regional tables. So, you know, you've heard me express that the starting point is this relationship between governments. The other incredibly important feature to the regional tables is a partnership with indigenous communities and partners in the jurisdiction. And you know, just like energy has a very different landscape across the country, the indigenous landscape is also very different depending on what part of the country you live in. And so we're designing very specific ways of partnering with indigenous organizations and communities in each province. So that, ultimately, we hope that we can have more of a trilateral type of discussion around how to accelerate these priorities. So that's another important feature of Who are these partners at the table. The other piece is, there's a number of stakeholder groups out there that have expertise, whether it be industry partnerships with Union and labor groups who are interested in understanding how we're going to build the jobs of the future, think tanks that are really considering so many long term challenges in this space. So universities, there's a large range of stakeholders that want to be able to participate in this process. And we're finding ways to do that as well. Because at the end of the day, we want to understand how to accelerate change. And we need to have all those perspectives brought to bear. And so we're designing that type of input and partnership into the process as well.   Dan Seguin  12:27 Okay, moving on here. Maybe you can tell us how federal funding from existing sources can be directed towards top regional priorities and projects?   Debbie Scharf  12:38 Yeah, so this is a really important piece. Because if the idea is that through these discussions you've identified, what are your priorities, what are your objectives? And therefore, what are the types of projects that we need to advance in those jurisdictions, you could start to develop a pretty clear priority list around where you want to catalyze investment, and how public and private sector dollars can be brought to bear. And that is exactly sort of when we talk about how do we align our programming, it's really about these tables, being able to provide a sense of what are those priorities that we need to invest in? And then how can we bring the programs and the federal family to bear to help facilitate those program investments. And there are a number of programs that we have that exists within the federal government, whether it be the Strategic Innovation Fund Netzero Accelerator, the soon to be brought to fruition Canada Growth Fund, the infrastructure Bank, the Critical Mineral Strategy that had quite a bit of funding attached to it. So these are all areas that we're looking at to say, how do we match, you know, where public funding can support priority investments and the tables are servicing where those priorities are?   Dan Seguin  13:41 Debbie, can you expand on how the approach to net zero emissions and in nature, a positive future will be different across the country?   Debbie Scharf  13:51 So it's really interesting, I have another thread that you'll hear throughout the discussion around regional tables as the no one size fits all approach, or where you live matters type of idea. And so what we're finding is that there's a lot of consistency in the priorities that different jurisdictions across the country are interested in, in pursuing, but they look very different depending on where you live, I'll give you a very obvious example, if you want to talk about carbon capture and storage and you live in Alberta. That's a very different conversation than if you're in Newfoundland, and you have an industry, like an oil and gas industry that exists offshore, the type of conversation you're going to have will be very different in terms of what types of actions you have to take to move that type of technology solution forward. And the same thing could be said around, you know, fuel sources like hydrogen, if you live in Alberta, or Saskatchewan, you may produce hydrogen a bit differently than if you were in Quebec, or in Manitoba. And so it's very interesting to see how common priorities can find their expression very different depending on where you live.   Dan Seguin  14:54 In Canada, where do you see the biggest opportunities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Since in nature, and where do you see the biggest opportunities in technology?   Debbie Scharf  15:05 Yeah. Um, so I would be remiss if I didn't talk about carbon capture, and storage or carbon capture utilization and storage, CCS or CCUS. As a great example, for Canada, we have an enormous amount of natural advantages in space. And it is going to be a very important technology for Canada to be able to reduce emissions and think about those hard to abate sectors not only oil and gas, but concrete, steel, other types of industrial activities that need to capture emissions. And in Canada, we have wonderful geology, and we wonder about sort of natural strengths. And we have an amazing industry and investments have been made in this technology in years past, that really put us in an excellent position to take advantage of a technology like that. And in the vein of CCUS carbon capture as a concept is a very important opportunity area. And another example where you can capture carbon, but not necessarily through a technology is, for example, through our 2 billion trees program, where using nature to capture carbon is another very interesting way to be able to tackle this wall restoring nature and biodiversity and having a number of other positive impacts. So I'd say there's a lot to say for carbon capture technologies and a lot of reasons why it's a unique opportunity area for Canada.   Dan Seguin  16:21 Now, staying on this topic of net zero, which sectors are most likely to achieve Net Zero first?   Debbie Scharf  16:30 That's a very hard question, because it's going to be a tricky path, I think, for all sectors, because each one is going to have its own unique challenges to get to net zero. Typically, when I think about it, we talk a lot about reducing emissions in different sectors. I like to start by talking about the energy mix that actually underpins all sectors, and how do you get that energy next to be clean, reliable and affordable, because without that, you're not going to get any sector to actually adopt those clean energy sources. So it is we're starting with electricity where we've made significant headway and is probably the front runner in Canada as a sector in terms of reducing emissions with the phase out of unabated coal fired electricity generation happening in 2030. We're Canada's international leader, that sectors 83% clean and growing. And we have a commitment to get to net zero emissions in that sector by 2035. But what I will say is that's enormous progress and enormous progress that will be made going forward. And now we have to look at getting clean electricity to more people and more industries. And that will be a challenge in and of itself. And the other part of the energy system that's definitely worth attention and will be so important, are clean fuels like hydrogen, because we know that some industries and applications will not be able to use electricity or are going to need to use clean fuels. So I like to think about how do we get the energy system in the right place, have it reliable, affordable and clean, and then you have to get to adoption, and get each of the sectors to be able to adopt that. And you know, then you get into another set of challenges around technology and industrial processes, which will be a challenge. But you know, I would say electricity probably is coming up at the top.   Dan Seguin  18:06 How is NRCan enabling a clean energy future through electrification?   Debbie Scharf  18:13 Yeah, and I think electricity has made its way into your podcasts in the past. It's a very, very important topic. And that's because there are experts that have estimated that the electricity system may need to double, maybe even triple by the time 2050 comes around. And that is going to be an enormous challenge for Canada and nation building, frankly, a challenge for Canada. Think about railroads, the transmission lines of today are the railroads of the past to be able to get electricity to where it needs to get to. And that's one of the reasons why we have the regional tables where we're talking about electricity, infrastructure and investments there. And we're soon to launch the Canadian electricity Advisory Council, which was previously called the pan Canadian grid council to help help us through some of these challenges are that maybe what I will say is perhaps not NRCan, but the Government of Canada in terms of advancing electrification, I think it is worth just reiterating what was in our federal budget that was just announced a number of weeks ago, because there's some real game changers in there. For example, the introduction of a clean electricity tax credit, which is applicable to tax and non tax entities. And to not use jargon, that means you're not a private sector company, it's still okay, which means utilities can actually get access to these tax credits, which is an enormous leap forward for the application of these tax credits, which will help with the investments required in the electricity sector. There's also new and enhanced low cost financing that's being brought to bear with commitments around how the Canada Infrastructure Bank will be spending its money and the Canada Growth Fund. And then of course, the top up to NRCan programming to the tune of about $3 billion to help ensure critical projects get built. And even more important than having tax credits and strategic financing and targeted programs is that they're all going to work together and really come together in an integrated way to support investment. And I think that is a major leap forward in terms of thinking about how to catalyze investment in this sector.   Dan Seguin  20:04 Now, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges and opportunities that you see?   Debbie Scharf  20:10 I almost feel like the challenge and the opportunity is the flip side of one another. Because huge challenge, we got to build out the system - a huge opportunity, we can build it out more flexibly, more reliably, we could bring more energy efficiency to bear which by the way, will be critical to not overbuilt the system, bring new technologies to bear - like smart grid technologies, and leverage new possibilities like vehicle to grid storage for electric vehicles. Talk about all those batteries that are going to be out there! All of those technologies are enormous opportunities. But the flip side is we need a lot of electricity. And we got to build that out. And what I would say is at the heart of the challenge, is how do you find the balance between having a clean system, an affordable system and a reliable system? And making decisions to build things out in a way that balances those three things, I think is the challenge on the opportunity   Dan Seguin  20:59 To accelerate success, what are the countries should Canada be looking to emulate or learn from?   Debbie Scharf  21:07 Yeah, that is a great point. Because we are not going to get to net zero without learning from partners and others around the world. And there are a few, I think, sort of really good models out there of other countries. And you really need to look to the ones that are tackling similar challenges that we have here in Canada to see what we can learn from them. For example, you know, there's an EU model around integrating regional electricity trade that can be really fascinating for Canada to learn from given that we have fragmented provincial jurisdictions with different market and regulatory structures. And we got to find a way to connect the system together for the collective good. And there are countries like Australia that have quite a similar type of structure to their economy, being the large energy producer, but also wanting to tackle climate and having sort of similar constitutional divisions of labour with their states. And in fact, believe it or not, Australia did something very similar to the regional energy and resource tables. It wasn't called that, but they were a model that we looked at before, before we landed the final design for that particular piece. So we do a lot of international engagement, bilaterally or multilaterally, because there's a lot to learn from others.   Dan Seguin  22:11 Debbie, is it possible to transition to a netzero future without economic hardships in a carbon heavy sector? Can you give an example on how to achieve this?   Debbie Scharf  22:23 Well, to quote another thing that someone wants once mentioned before is the best way to predict the future is to create it. So I think we have to very consciously think about the future we want to create, and how to diversify the industries that we have into new product lines, new clean energy opportunities, in the way that we think about the activities we're going to take going forward. But you know, one example that I think is worth picking up on is the work that we're doing on sustainable jobs in particular. Because this is an area that you can really get wrong, and talking about hardship is an area that you absolutely don't want to get wrong. And so really looking at where we want to see economic growth, and how do you support workers to be able to be ready for the type of opportunities that are going to be available in the future. And I would be remiss if I did not mention that we did publish a first interim Sustainable Jobs Plan earlier this year in February, and it talked about 10 key areas where we can make some demonstrable progress, and we already are making demonstrable progress to get the workforce ready for the future. And frankly, it will be a differentiator because you can't have economic activity without people working. And if you don't have the right labor market, there won't be investment decisions made by companies. And so I think that that is one area that we have to get right.   Dan Seguin  23:38 Now, the Royal Bank of Canada released the thought leadership piece last October. That said, the electricity industry is netzero already, but that we would need to double the electricity output that currently exists today. What are your thoughts on Canada's electricity sector, its readiness, and that assessment.   Debbie Scharf  23:59 So I already mentioned that Canada's grid is about 83% non emitting. Having said that, though, there are five provinces where there's still a significant reliance on unabated fossil fuels, provinces like Alberta, Saskatchewan, some Atlantic provinces, Ontario. And so again, where you live matters when it comes to energy, because when it comes to being Net Zero ready, it's going to feel a bit different in those provinces than if you were Quebec or British Columbia. And so we have to really focus on how to support the jurisdictions that need to get there and will be faced with the greatest challenges. And I cannot emphasize enough like the scale of the challenge. We tend to use the word generational quite a bit, perhaps we use it a bit too much. But it is very generational in nature, just in terms of its size and scope. And so, you know, once again, to just mention that we know as a federal government, we need to be a constructive partner in the Federation around these particular issues and to help those jurisdictions that need help to get to where they need to be and the tax measures in the budget are very good exams. boasts of how we do that providing long term stable, predictable investment climate, and frankly, helping to reduce costs, which means reducing ratepayer impacts around these particular projects in the jurisdictions that are going to feel it the most. So do I think that we have the technology to get there? I do. Does that mean that it's going to be easy for those provinces and jurisdictions that have a long way to go? No, it will not be easy.   Dan Seguin  25:25 Interesting. Is there a myth or misunderstanding about the energy transition or netzero, that you wish more people understood?   Debbie Scharf  25:36 This is a great question. So I'm going to answer it a little bit more from the perspective of what I worry about the most, when I think about the work that I do. And what I worry about the most is that we don't always appreciate that Canada is an energy producing nation. So we generate an enormous amount of wealth, security, and cheap energy from our energy sectors. And in turn, we are providing the world with energy security, not every country can say that. In fact, there's a fairly small number of countries around the globe that can say that. But it puts us in a bit of a tricky position, because we're producing a lot of energy for other people. And when we think about getting to net zero, that creates an interesting dynamic for Canada about how we get there. And I look at other countries like Europe, and it makes you realize that energy affordability and energy security is actually our battle to lose, because those are things we have today. But another country, there are countries, they're not things that they have. And we definitely don't want to end up in that particular situation. So we just have to think a little, I worry that people don't appreciate the challenge unique to Canada as an energy producer. And when we're thinking about the energy transition. And when we design our policies, we have to think not just about emission reductions, but how do we continue to generate that wealth, that prosperity and that security from the energy system? And we have to solve all those complex outcomes for Canadians. Otherwise, we're not going to get it right. And we're going to lose the battle.   Dan Seguin  27:02 Finally, Debbie, how do you make the fight against climate change equitable, and accessible for everyone to participate in? What's needed for all Canadians to buy into the net zero plan?   Debbie Scharf  27:16 So a couple of things that I would say about this. The first thing is, all levels of government have to cooperate, right? Like we've got to get, we've got to get the collaborations and partnerships, right to be able to create the enabling conditions to get to where we want to go. I would say that for Canadians, and my sense is, I would feel this, and I do feel this personally. So it is a very personal experience, I need to have a job, I need to put food on the table, I need to feel like I'm making the right choices. I need to feel like the government and the country are making the right choices. And so we just have to make sure that in all the things that we're doing, we're being mindful that these are outcomes that we need to be able to deliver for Canadians, and not only for the Canadians that are employed in the workforce, but for marginalized people, underrepresented groups, like how can we create a very inclusive Canada on the path to net zero. And I think if we can develop the vision and implement a vision for an inclusive, secure, affordable, and prosperous Canada, then we're going to get the buy-in that we need. And the trick is to be able to solve all those things really well.   Dan Seguin  28:20 Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?   Debbie Scharf  28:27 I am scared but I am ready.   Dan Seguin  28:32 Now, what are you reading right now?   Debbie Scharf  28:34 A historical fiction about World War Two.   Dan Seguin  28:36 Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one?   Debbie Scharf  28:40 Well, I am the eternal optimist. So I would name it Possibility.   Dan Seguin  28:45 Now Debbie, who is someone you truly admire?   Debbie Scharf  28:49 Easiest answer, my mother?   Dan Seguin  28:51 What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Debbie Scharf  28:56 And I would say watching my kids grow into adults.   Dan Seguin  29:01 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally since the pandemic began?   Debbie Scharf  29:08 Yeah, so the biggest challenge I would say is actually supporting my children who I think have borne the biggest brunt of pandemic choices in society. So I would say a real sort of personal experience around the pandemic.   Dan Seguin  29:22 Okay, we've been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or even show?   Debbie Scharf  29:29 Yeah, so right now, Firefly Lane and Night Agent, which shows my bizarre ability to move between romantic comedies and action options.   Dan Seguin  29:41 Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?   Debbie Scharf  29:47 Oh, that's an easy question, because I am pretty excited about this industry right now. I think we are in the middle of the most difficult but exciting time in the energy transition. And I'm actually feeling pretty privileged to play a part of on behalf of all Canadians to try and get us there.   Dan Seguin  30:03 Well, Debbie, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect?   Debbie Scharf  30:16 Well, the easiest way to do that is to send an email Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Energy Systems Sector at Natural Resources Canada.   Dan Seguin  30:25 Thanks again for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Debbie Scharf  30:29 Thanks so much, Dan.   Dan Seguin  30:33 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Governments around the world are working to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Consider Canada’s goal to be net zero by 2050. With targets in place, businesses and organizations are tasked with understanding their own emissions and finding ways to limit them. But where to begin? What’s the cost? On episode 110 of thinkenergy, Glenn Mooney, Manager of Energy Services for Envari Energy Solutions, shares the business case to operate a more sustainable (and competitive) business in the age of net zero targets. Related links Glenn Mooney, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glenn-mooney-4656265/ Envari Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/ Envari Advisor Plus: https://envari.com/advisor-plus/ Envari Energy Dashboard: https://envari.com/envari-energy-dashboard/  To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod ----------- Dan Seguin  0:06   This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. The issue of climate change has resulted in a global mission by governments around the world to set targets in an effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In response, businesses and organizations have been tasked with understanding their own emissions, and finding ways to reduce them. But where do businesses begin? Identifying all sources of emissions a business produces can be a daunting task, especially for large organizations with complex operations. Furthermore, collecting, measuring and analyzing data can be time consuming and challenging, especially if the data is dispersed across various systems and departments. It requires specialized equipment, and expertise plus, government regulations can be complex and ever changing, making it difficult for businesses and organizations to stay up to date with the latest requirements. Finally, there is an issue of cost where many businesses and organizations may struggle to justify the expense, especially if they operate in a highly competitive industry with narrow profit margins. How do they navigate what funding and rebates are available? So here is today's big question. How can businesses be informed about their own emissions, and get on track to become a more competitive and sustainable business in the age of net zero targets? Joining us today is Glen Mooney, manager of energy services for inquiry. Glen is responsible for business development, and programs for a variety of energy management and energy advisory services. Glenn, so great to have you join us today. Now, Glenn, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners about Envari and the type of programs and services the organization provides.   Glenn Mooney  2:43   Sure. Envari has been around since 2001. So we just celebrated our 20th anniversary last year, kind of the year before during COVID, so it wasn't much of a celebration. We formed... we've grown out of what was called Energy Ottawa, we've rebranded to Envari a few years back. So that's kind of the history of the organization, we've broken it into three practices, we have a lighting practice, an electrical practice and a buildings practice. And we provide pretty much anything to do with buildings, energy, not just electricity, but electricity, gas, water, Steam, carbon, anything that is a resource or an energy based element. We do on the building side. So I'm responsible for the building side and kind of anything that happens inside them. So we do a lot of systems design for building systems. We do a lot of engineering and audits and assessments and feasibility studies, a lot of green building initiatives. But the one thing we're probably best at is we do a lot of projects, we've probably done well over 1000 energy and sustainability projects from end to end - concept to commissioning, we call it so HVAC, and building automation, ultra efficient heat pumps. We've done a lot of work in that space lately, building automation and controls and doing some really interesting things on the control side, anything data, energy data, carbon data, doing tracking for our customers, and helping to support them with analyzing data and giving them tangible results out of what we find - distributed energy resources. So we've tried to create a business that fits in an area that wasn't serviced well. And I think that served us very well over time.   Dan Seguin  4:12   Cool. So Glen, what are some of the common challenges businesses face when trying to achieve their greenhouse gas emission targets? And how can you help them overcome these challenges?   Glenn Mooney  4:27   Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just where to start. This is a new world. It's a new world for all of us. It's a big shift, and they just need some help, some support. Where am I? How do I start? Where do I need to go? What kind of pathway probably an overused term but it fits for the purpose of chasing carbon. The big thing I guess we can help with is the expertise but just we've been through it, so end-to-end again, you need support right from the top. So you need support from your, your CEO level, your CFO level. That's the big challenge because the economics of this is a bit challenging. The asset management people, the operations people is just getting them engaged, get the stakeholders engaged because a lot of money is a big part of this. So it's it's managing that... managing it versus capital plans, those sorts of things. So like we as a company, or as a group of companies, we've kind of taken what our CEO calls a moonshot, we were trying to go to net zero by 2030. And it's going to be a challenge, but hey, we're going to do it.   Dan Seguin  5:23   Now. Glenn, can you help me better understand how you typically approach the analysis of the company's energy usage? And identify areas where improvements can be made?   Glenn Mooney  5:37   Yeah, we start with what we call it an energy balance, which kind of informs a carbon balance. So that's basically taking how much energy does the building use? How does it use it? How does that convert into carbon or your CO2 emissions, or your greenhouse gases, your footprint, whatever you want to call it, and then we start to break it down. There's a lot of intelligence we can get from information just being in some buildings, understanding how systems work and kind of break down that - how is natural gas used in a building? How is electricity used in the building? And then what can you do about the carbon sources like the natural gas? How do you kind of translate those into potential measures that can reduce that footprint, it's tough the grid, you'll never it's tough to get to a zero because the grid itself is not clean. So even just recently, the Ontario grid as they used to say it was 93% clean, it's now closer to 90, because we brought on a little bit more carbon generation for a while. There's some refurbishment is going on in the nuclear side of things. So it's a it's a bit of a challenge to get to zero, there are ways to do it. And that's the path that we try to find. It also kind of brings up as a whole hybrid one, do you still do want the gas meter off the building? Or are you willing to use gas in really tough times when it's an extremely cold day that maybe some of the other surfaces or sources can't totally get you all the heat that you need, say on a cold, cold winter day?   Dan Seguin  6:54   Okay, now, Glenn, maybe you can give an example of a successful energy efficiency project, Envari has implemented for a business that is helping them achieve their greenhouse gas emission targets?    Glenn Mooney  7:08   Sure.  I guess the one that comes to mind is kind of a large campus multi use multifunction looking at everything from solar to tons of carbon reduction efforts, looking at their fleet and electric vehicle charging, and the infrastructure that goes with it, the biggest thing with a lot of this new shift to less carbon is the impact on the electrical capacity of the facilities or their own network. And then also, how does it impact the utility, the local distribution company like Hydro Ottawa, because we're now asking for more electricity to support this. A lot is done in building automation systems. So we spend a lot of space there and probably more retro commissioning. The best thing to do is lower your load as low as you can first and then look at other ways of delivering the heating and the cooling to the building. So retro commissioning is one just let's let's minimize the load first, and then start from there. And then the HVAC systems, look at what alternatives are there to existing carbon consuming gas devices in a building. So that's where that hybrid discussion comes in. And it I emphasize that because it is a bit of a mind shift for people, they may want to... let's just get that meter off the building. As I said before, we really need to think that decision through because that's got a lot of impact economically, when you try to go build your business case for it. I think the biggest thing for them sorry, Dan, is just to really match it with your capital plans, let's not throw out good equipment right away. And that's a tendency to kind of model things that way. But let's look at... is that boiler due for replacement in say in 2032, or 33? Let's plan on that, unless you've got a more aggressive target. But let's try to match it up with how you're actually going to do your lifecycle of your equipment.   Dan Seguin  8:47   Now, what role does technology and innovation play in reducing greenhouse gas emissions for businesses? And how does Envari stay up to date with all of those latest technologies?   Glenn Mooney  9:01   So we've mentioned it earlier, we've probably built over 1000 projects. So we know what equipment is out there. We're always engaged with the industry, the manufacturing side and the vendor side to understand what's out there. But we also go beyond that. We've done quite a few pilots. We did one recently, for Natural Resources Canada, where we looked at cold climate heat pumps in real situations, we installed them in actual people's houses, and we monitored them, assessed them and figured out what the advantages were and what the economics of it were. And one of the big things that came out of it is just the improvement that's happened just even in the last three, four or five years to heat pump technologies. For example. We're seeing it more on the industrial side where we were seeing heat pumps right now that we can get 180 and 190 degree water out of temperatures that were never before able to be brought out of heat pumps. So those are big advances as a lot of technology and a lot of R&D going into those areas for different products. And I think we have to be also mindful of the fact that it's going to keep going. So to my example earlier of maybe changing a boiler out in 2020, or sorry, 2033, hard to keep track of time these days, we have to know that there's going to be better technologies then as well. So let's keep some hope for the future.   Dan Seguin  10:15   Okay. How do you ensure that businesses stay compliant with government regulations regarding greenhouse gas emissions?   Glenn Mooney  10:25   So we have a separate to practice that we we call Advisor Plus or I guess, a service where we actually help customers track their energy, track their carbon, advise them, when there's changes, advise them on how markets are going... is there any changes are there regulation changes carbon and commodity pricing of electricity and gas, other elements basically of commodity pricing, and just try to give them some good forecasting, we find that there's a lot of lot of tools out there available to everybody, there's so many sources of information, and we try to kind of bring it down to a simple one. And we provide that to them, rather than them having to go look for it.   Dan Seguin  11:04   Okay, I've got a follow up question here for you, Glen. How do you measure and track progress towards greenhouse emission reduction targets? And what metrics do you use?   Glenn Mooney  11:18   Yeah, and that's the tools part of it. So we have a couple of really great tools. One of them is a dashboard. And I think it's industry leadin, It brings in anything you want to bring into it, electricity, gas, water, steam, carbon, and it's got some really good artificial intelligence in it to A - help you run a facility and get some good insights into how your facility is running. But it's also that record that shows you how you're doing progress wise year over year, month over month, those sorts of things, the metrics we use, we tend to standardize on the federal metrics, because this is across Canada effort that's happening. So I will say Ener-Can probably the, they have a product called red screen that they use for their own modeling. So we tend to know that that will be updated as regular and we've decided as a company that that will be kind of our first level of metric as far as how greenhouse gases are calculated.   Dan Seguin  12:12   Okay, now, let's talk about affordability. How does a company balance the financial costs of implementing energy efficient projects, with the potential cost savings and environmental benefits.   Glenn Mooney  12:28   So there's a lot of grants and incentives and programs and offerings out there, keeping track of it is a challenge where they fit, where they don't fit, and how long the windows are open for, they come onto the market, and then they may be close. So there's limited time to maybe make application to some of these. So that's what we help our customers with is, here's what's available for your project. If there's an urgency to it, we get them through that quickly and get them applied and get them hopefully funded for these because these are not great business cases in a lot of times so those grants are essential to actually driving this forward. It's tough sometimes to make business cases these are these are the realities is natural gas is cheaper than electricity right now, our job is to try to find a way to make it more economically feasible to move to a less carbon intensive source. So that's a challenge. And I mentioned it earlier, getting to that CFO level, educating them on this type of business case, because it's not the simple energy efficiency, simple payback business case, there used to be this longer term play here with longer term implications. So it's getting everybody involved, it's getting shareholders to make a commitment, and then educating people from the top to the bottom.   Dan Seguin  13:36   Now, Glen, how do you educate and train businesses on best practices for reducing greenhouse gas emissions? And what role do employee engagement and behavioral change play in this process?   Glenn Mooney  13:51   Yeah, so it is getting that buy in from the top the shareholders and quite often, that's where it'll come from. It'll come from a shareholder statement. And then the rest of the organization needs to walk the talk. And the people at the top, the executive organization needs to actually walk that talk and show that they're serious about doing this, the CFO has to understand the economics of it and be prepared to support it, it's a lens to this. It's a very, these are very precious resources, and it's how they look at it, you've got to kind of create that lens that everything you do in your business needs to be focused on something like this, our kids will figure it out for us because they're going to tell us when we're offsides, that's what a lot of us are going to bring this, and hear from our own families... what are you guys doing in your business? So I think that's one of the neat pressures that probably gonna hold your feet to the fire on this one. So it's a challenge to get everybody to buy in. But I think good examples, and as we move down this path, I think we're gonna see more and more successes that are going to make it easier for the next company to pick it up and go with it.   Dan Seguin  14:45   Okay. How do you ensure that energy efficiency measures are sustainable, and can be maintained over the long term?   Glenn Mooney  14:56   That's the data part of it is tracking. We do a lot of data acquisition and data analysis with insights. But then we also do a lot of measurement and verification, because this is one of the things that will happen as people make commitments to reducing carbon, there's always going to be watchdogs out there watching to make sure that you've lived up to what you said you're going to live up to. So having that measurement and verification by, kind of an unbiased or an independent group, which we perform a lot for clients, I think is a big part of that, because your going to need to some point, put a stamp on it and say, yes, we saved this much carbon.   Dan Seguin  15:30   Finally, Glen, what advice do you have for businesses that are just starting to address their greenhouse gas emissions? And what are some of the most important steps they can take to achieve their targets?   Glenn Mooney  15:45   I'd say find a friend with knowledge we all do that. There's a tendency because it's new to try to solve the solution in house yourself and try to educate yourself and bring yourself up to speed. But I always believe in surrounding yourself with smart people and just reach out to the people that have already done it, we do the same, like we're not all knowing nobody knows all of this, I think we know a really good share of it. But we have some really smart partners around us that we'll often lean on to provide different components of it that we may not have in house, but we try to have the best minds in the industry around us to support us when we're dealing with customers.   Dan Seguin  16:19   Okay, Glenn. Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, sir. Are you ready?   Glenn Mooney  16:30   I am ready.   Dan Seguin  16:31   Okay, here we go. What are you reading right now?   Glenn Mooney  16:35   It's a book called bear town. It's about a fictitious hockey team. And I won't give it away. But in in another country, you don't really figure that out till halfway through the book. But I played a lot of hockey when I was younger. So I kind of relate to this. Good Book.   Dan Seguin  16:47   Glenn, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do.   Glenn Mooney  16:51   I do not have a boat. I spent a lot of time in my younger years around friends at race boats. I spent a lot of time in boat racing. And I guess the one that sticks in my head was a boat that was just physically a beautiful boat very fast. And it was called Color Me Gone and that's a name that always stuck with me is that was he lived up to his name?   Dan Seguin  17:09   Okay, who is someone that you admire?   Glenn Mooney  17:13   I'd have to go with my father - my parents are amazing people, but my father and my ex... or not my ex father in law. My father in law that just passed away a couple years ago, actually, during COVID. They were just very good people. And my father in law, the way he lived his life was just... be kind of people and that's one that I've always I saw the impact that it had around people. When he passed away there a couple years ago, he was just known as a very kind, gentle person.   Dan Seguin  17:40   Okay, next one here. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Glenn Mooney  17:46   I saw David Copperfield live actually at the NAC. And I can remember walking, I was going, I have no idea. It was cool. It was entertaining. But... and the other magic I've had in my life personally, is I was behind the net for the golden goal in Vancouver at the Olympics. So that's a that was a pretty magical moment in another way.   Dan Seguin  18:05   Okay. Glen, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Glenn Mooney  18:14   So one of one of the things I did and I'm, I guess a little bit different, and COVID... I actually lost weight. Because I was working at home, I was very dedicated. I needed to lose weight. So I went and did it. The struggle part of that is keeping it off. So kind of changed lifestyle, you creep back, you kind of make adjustments to go back. So I'm not sure I'm winning yet. But I'm trying hard.    Dan Seguin  18:32   Okay, now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?   Glenn Mooney  18:41   So what I'm hooked on right now is called Loudermilk. I don't think it's Netflix. I think it's a it's a prime one. It's just funny, I just sorry. It's my type of humor. And I kind of relate to it. It's good. We just finished Daisy Jones in the six which I thought was good. Somebody said last week, I never clued into this, but it's kind of loosely based on the whole drama of Fleetwood Mac. So as so soon somebody said that, I was like okay, now I get it. So yeah, very good series.   Dan Seguin  19:05   Lastly, what's exciting you about the industry right now.   Glenn Mooney  19:10   So I've done this for... I did the math the other day, over 30 years that I've been in the energy type business. And I would say that this is just accelerated about 10 fold. We've done energy, this whole transition to climate change, carbon reduction, it's just foots all fully down on the on the accelerator for this. It's things are going to change so much in the next 20 years, probably far more than I've seen in 30 years before now. So I think that's pretty exciting. We have a lot of young engineers here that are just incredibly smart, but they've got a neat future ahead of them with this.    Dan Seguin  19:43   Well, Glenn, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you. How can they connect?   Glenn Mooney  19:59   Envari.com, we have a bunch of video stories of the kind of work we've done. And I would say that just go go take a look at our website, and we've done a really nice job of it and our comms people have done a great job at just trying to frame the work that we've done. So check it out. Envari.com.   Dan Seguin  20:14   Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Glenn Mooney  20:20   It was great. Thanks, Dan.   Dan Seguin  20:21   Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

  Each year, Canadian homes and buildings—and the electricity generated to power them—release 111 million tonnes of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions into the atmosphere. To limit the impact, the Government of Canada aims to reduce GHG emissions 40–45% by 2030, compared to levels in 2005. And heat pumps are emerging as a solution, increasing energy efficiency while cutting energy costs and lowering carbon emissions. Shawn Carr, Manager of Customer Experience at Hydro Ottawa, explains on thinkenergy episode 109.   Related links   Shawn Carr, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-carr-6797b612/ Canada Greener Homes Initiative: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/canada-greener-homes-initiative/24831  Air Source Heat Pump Toolkit: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/maps-tools-and-publications/tools/modelling-tools/toolkit-for-air-source-heat-pump-sizing-and-selection/23558 To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets at Twitter ------------------- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.   Dan Seguin  00:28 Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you know that we spend more than 80% of our time indoors, whether it's at home, work, school, shopping, or doing recreational activities. Currently, Canadian homes and buildings combined with the electricity generated to power them, releases 111 million tons of greenhouse gas emissions into our atmosphere every year. To protect our environment and reduce the impact of climate change. The Government of Canada has committed to reducing Canada's total GHG emissions to 40 to 45, below 2005 levels by 2030 and to reaching net zero by 2050. The building sector is the third largest source of emissions in Canada.   Dan Seguin  01:27 As we look for ways to shape a more sustainable future Heat pumps are emerging as one of the climate solutions that can reduce energy costs, lower carbon emissions and increase energy efficiency. Now, I say they're emerging as a climate solution. But in fact, the concept of using heat pumps to transfer heat from one place to another has been around for centuries.   Dan Seguin  01:56 Since its early conception, heat pump technology continued to evolve throughout the 19th and early 20th century. Today, it is widely used for both heating and cooling buildings, as well as for various industrial and commercial applications. So here's today's big question. Are heat pumps the answer to reducing the carbon emissions of Canada's built environment? And are they being adopted at a pace necessary to achieve the 2030 and 2050 targets? Today my special guest is Shawn Carr. Shawn blends energy, sustainability, green building project management experience with business experience as a team leader, manager and developer. He is a strong advocate on climate action and serves on numerous committees with organizations such as Building Owners and Managers Association better known as BOMA, the Ontario Energy Association, and the electricity Distributors Association. He's also the manager of customer experience at Hydro Ottawa. Shawn, welcome to the show. Now, Shawn, this is pretty cool. I understand heat pump technology has been around since 1857. At a high level, what are heat pumps? And how do they work?   Shawn Carr  03:29 Well, you're absolutely right, Dan heat pumps have been around a long time. And they're actually a proven and reliable technology here in Canada and around the world. And they're capable of providing year round Comfort Control for your home by supplying heat in the winter, cooling in the summer, and in some cases heating hot water for your home as well. In fact, it's likely that most people have already interacted with this type of technology on a daily basis. For example, both refrigerators and air conditioners operate using the same principles and technology as heat pumps do. A heat pump is essentially just an electrical driven device that extracts heat from a low temperature place and delivers it to a high temperature place. So if you think of your home as a big refrigerator as energy is extracted from the air inside your home and transferred outside, it's going to cool the inside of your home. This is how pumps operate in essence In cooling mode. Similarly, if we were to talk about the heating mode, as heat is grabbed from outside from the air and moved inside your home the temperature is actually going to increase inside your home. And so essentially what that means is a heat pump is fully reversible. It can both heat and cool. And so in essence it has dual functionality. I think what makes heat pumps so different from other heating technologies such as gas furnaces and boilers is that those technologies provide space heating by adding heat to the air through a combustion process. So for example, combusting a fuel such as natural gas. And although their efficiencies have improved, they are still below 100%, meaning not all the available energy from combustion is used to treat the air, there are losses involved through incomplete combustion, and heat lost in the exhaust air. So, heat pumps work on a different principle, the electricity input into the heat pump is used to just transfer thermal energy between two locations, there is actually no combustion process at all. Heat pumps don't generate heat, they just redirect existing heat from one location to another. And so what that means is it allows them to operate much more efficiently. And so I thought it would be valuable just to explain kind of how efficiency is measured with a heat pump, it's actually expressed by something called the coefficient of performance, typically referred to as the COP . And what the COPis, is a ratio between the rate at which the heat pump actually transfers thermal energy, and the amount of electrical power it actually consumes. So, for example, if a heat pump used one unit of energy to transfer the heat equivalent of three units of energy, the COP would be three, and its efficiency would be 300%. So it actually delivers three times more energy than it consumes, in that example. Why does that matter? Well, knowing the COP of a heat pump allows you to judge how efficiently the unit is working. And so the higher the COP , the less electricity a heat pump consumes. So it's kind of like magic. And what I'll say is a COP of three or higher is actually pretty common with this new era of heat pumps, even in colder locations where there is less heat to transfer. And so it's also important to understand, though, as the outside air temperature drops, so does the COP. And so by point of comparison, if you were just using electric resistance heating, like baseboards, to heat your home, they actually have a COP of one. Okay, cool now, so why are heat pumps more popular than ever right now? Yeah, I mean, Heat pumps are certainly having a moment right now, in particular, this new era of heat pumps, and that's because they are a big lever for decarbonisation, and reaching net zero emissions by 2050. Technology and heat pumps have advanced dramatically, making them more efficient and more affordable even in cold climates. So in Canada, heating our homes accounts for about 16% of the carbon emissions in our country. And space and water heating specifically represent about 85% of residential greenhouse gas emissions. So replacing fossil fuel heating systems with electric options will significantly decrease household emissions. We could just use more traditional forms of electric heat like baseboards and electric furnaces, but the pumps are far more efficient options of beneficial electrification. So if we want to drive deeper emissions cuts, and we want to do it cost effectively for Canadians, switching to a heat pump is one of the most impactful ways of reducing your home's emissions. Heat pumps are becoming a pillar in a home electrification strategy.   Dan Seguin  09:21 Now, Shawn, answer this for me. Why is running our home with more electricity and choosing a heat pump a climate friendly choice?   Shawn Carr  09:31 Thanks for that Dan. It's a good question. I mean, first of all, there are lots of different fuels or energy types that can power our homes we you know, we've we commonly use natural gas propane furnace oil and electricity to heat our homes and all of these energy types have different carbon footprints and some are much more environmentally friendly than others. So if we talk about Canada, we have, as a country, one of the cleanest power grids in the world, and our government has committed to having a netzero energy grid by 2035. So even in regions where there may still be a significant portion of electricity generation that relies on fossil fuels, that electricity generation will steadily get cleaner and cleaner while burning, non renewable natural gas or propane in your home for heat is always going to produce emissions. And so there have actually been reports on the different ways for Canada to get to net zero. And the modeling consistently shows that electrification of heating as a necessary part of the transition to net zero and Canada's building sector. And so heat pumps specifically are critical to Canada's energy transition. In fact, probably critical to the world's energy transition, the technology is proven, they use up to 70% less energy than conventional home heating technologies, and they will probably become the default means of heating both indoor spaces and hot water systems in the near future. The other thing I'll point out is that air conditioning demand is rising. And by providing both heating and cooling heat pumps can help people manage climate impacts in regions where people may not have air conditioning today, but are starting to face hotter, and more frequent summer heat waves. We witnessed that with what happened with the fires and in British Columbia, and those are in regions where people traditionally may have not had air conditioning.   Dan Seguin  11:47 Now, what is a cold climate heat pump? And is that what Canadians should purchase?   Shawn Carr  11:56 Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. And so advancements in air source heat pump technology now means that there are heat pump options that are, I would say, far better suited or adapted to operating in the cold Canadian climate. And those are referred to as cold climate heat pumps. What makes them different from a traditional air source heat pump is it's really just some of the equipment that's contained within the unit. So they use variable capacity compressors, inverters, improved heat exchanger designs and controls to maximize heating capacity at colder temperatures while maintaining high efficiencies during milder conditions. And so what that means is they can still redirect heat from outside to inside your home quite efficiently even in conditions down to minus 20 degrees Celsius or less. So to classify as a cold climate heat pump under the federal Canada greener homes grant, which we can talk more about later, heat pumps must have a coefficient of performance a COP of 1.8 or higher at minus 15 degrees Celsius. So that means that the heat pump must maintain an efficiency of at least 180% at minus 15 Celsius. And just again, as a reminder, the most efficient gas burning furnaces out there have an efficiency of like 96 or 97%.   Dan Seguin  13:37 Okay, I've got another follow up question here for you. Can cold climate heat pumps meet the heating demand on their own? Or are there circumstances where backup heat is required?   Shawn Carr  13:53 Yeah, so I guess the short answer is it depends. You know, whether or not you need a backup heat source for your heat pump is going to depend, you know, on a number of factors, you know, for example, the type of heat pump you purchase, the climate zone you live in, and the design and efficiency of of your home. So, in some parts of Canada that are milder, a heat pump might be all you need, but in other colder areas, you will most certainly need a backup system. And that's because, you know, as the temperature drops, heat pumps start to become less efficient at heating. And when the temperature gets to a certain point, you know, the unit will shut off altogether, or it'll work in tandem with your backup heat system. And that shut off point is going to depend on your unit, the unit that you chose, but typically, that shutoff point could be anywhere from minus 15 Celsius down to minus 25 Celsius or lower. So, you know, what I will also say is the heat pump system is not typically sized to deliver 100% of the peak heating load that your home is designed for, because that could lead to an oversize system that might cycle on and off. So it's really important, I would say that if you're considering a heat pump that you work with a mechanical contractor for selecting and specifying a heat pump, and a backup heat source that's going to be right for your home, you know, right for your budget and your needs. And there are many options for a backup heat system. Some heat pumps come with an integrated electric resistance heating system that functions as a backup system at very low temperature. So think of that as just like an electric resistance element like a hairdryer that's been installed inside your duck. However, there are also natural gas backup options such as traditional high efficiency furnaces that can be used as a backup source if your home happens to be centrally ducted. And these are often referred to as hybrid heating systems.   Dan Seguin  16:13 Now, Shawn, what are some factors to consider when deciding if a heat pump is the right choice for your home?   Shawn Carr  16:21 Yeah, I mean, I think like I mentioned a bit earlier, a heat pump is probably the biggest thing that a homeowner can do at home to help fight the climate crisis. On top of it, you know, if you were to do the math, and consider the upfront costs, the current incentives and the ongoing energy costs associated with operating that cold climate heat pump, you know, the choice to go with a heat pump, in most cases is going to be pretty clear. That said, picking the right heat pump for your home requires planning and requires a mechanical system contractor that can help you navigate the heat pump journey and kind of guide you through that process. And the reason I say that's important is because you know, there's a lot of different things that you need to consider in this decision. For example, do I want an air source heat pump or a ground source heat pump? You know, will it be ducted? Or a ductless? System? Can I get away with just getting a traditional air source heat pump? Or do I need a cold climate heat pump? What size of heat pump do I need? And should it be sized for the heating load or the cooling load in my home? What are the economics around purchasing and operating a heat pump in your area compared to another type of heating system? How long is it going to take to recover the added cost of a heat pump through energy cost savings? Is my jurisdiction planning to implement any restrictions on fossil fuel heating, you know? Will a heat pump even work in my home? You know, will there be any added disruption to actually install it kind of like buying a car? You know what, what brand of heat pump? Should I go with? You know what warranties are available? What maintenance is needed? So I think as you can see down, there's just you know, there's a lot to consider. And I think despite all of these considerations, my opinion is that a heat pump will almost always be the right technology choice for your home. But making the best overall choice requires advanced planning. And it really has more to do with finding a good contractor that can help you make an informed decision rather than a snap decision when something goes wrong with your current system. You know, this is a big purchase. And you're going to need to live with that decision for maybe 15 years or more. So it's important to get it right. And I would say that, you know, if you happen to be listening to this podcast, a podcast that already gives you a good start because you now know that a heat pump is another option.   Dan Seguin  19:12 How do you determine what size heat pump you need?   Dan Seguin  19:17 Well, Dan, I guess I guess in this case, I mean size does matter. I mean the size is one of the most important things to get right. You can't just walk into your basement, look at the size of your gas furnace, and assume you need an equivalent sized heat pump. It doesn't work that way. The general rules of thumb often used by the industry for sizing heating and cooling loads generally result in an oversized system which is more expensive to operate and harder to control for comfort. So this is why it's so important, in my opinion, just to work with an energy consultant or a mechanical systems contractor who understands heat pumps. And so natural resource Canada, for example, has actually developed a toolkit for Air Source Heat Pump sizing and selection. And it's to help the contractor community and the design community to determine optimal sizing needs for customers. And so the guide actually helps with defining the key Air Source Heat Pump requirements. So things like, you know, what configuration makes sense for my home ducted versus ductless? You know, what are the heating and cooling loads in my home? What are the target capacity requirements, and then what the tool does is it kind of matches up good heat pump candidates for your requirements. And the toolkit actually goes as far as providing guidelines that also help with, you know, defining the control strategy for your heat pump and the backup heating requirements. And so the federal and in fact, actually, the federal incentives that are available through the greeter homes initiative are also contingent on getting the heat distribution right. So the sizing is important. And Enercan is looking to verify that whoever worked on your project has looked at that through that lens.   Dan Seguin  21:19 Okay, something a little more technical here. Our air source and ground source heat pumps are the most common types for Canadians. And maybe you can talk to us about what are some of the differences?   Shawn Carr  21:34 Yeah, I would say that they're certainly the two most common types for Canadians. I mean, air source is by far the most common type for Canadians followed by ground source. Really, the main difference with a ground source heat pump is they actually use the ground as the source of heat in the winter, and as a reservoir to reject heat removed from the home in the summer. And so rather than the air being the heat transfer mechanism, it's actually the ground, the main advantage of ground source heat pumps is they are not subject to the extreme temperature fluctuations we get with air because the ground is a more constant temperature source throughout the year. And what that ends up ultimately doing is it actually can drive higher efficiencies. The downside to ground source heat pumps, typically is that they are more expensive to install, there's more labor involved, and they may also require landscape alterations, so they may not be suitable for for all property types, depending on whether you've got the space in the land to be able to accommodate the loops that need to get installed in the ground and so on. So, you know, that said they're, they're very efficient, which means greater energy savings and ground source, heat pumps tend to work well and in almost all climates because they're not impacted by big fluctuations in outdoor air temperature. Very interesting. Now, can heat pumps be combined with renewable energy sources like solar? For sure. I mean, absolutely. I, you know, combining a heat pump with a solar array that will, you know, reduce your electricity consumption and costs can further improve the business case over the lifecycle of the heat pump system compared to, you know, a fossil fuel energy system. And so, you know, if you're in a jurisdiction with clean electricity generation, combining that heat pump with a solar system, it will result in you not emitting any net operational greenhouse gasses. So yeah, I mean, pairing it up is, you know, is a great solution, if you can afford the capital to do it.   Dan Seguin  24:03 This is an important topic here. Now, what kind of incentives and rebates exist out there?   Shawn Carr  24:11 Yeah. Well, so this is becoming harder to keep up. But what I would say is, it really depends on where you live, as there are many different incentives, rebates, you know, grants and, and financing options that are offered by municipalities, provinces and utilities and and they vary across Canada as it relates to heat pumps. And so I'm just going to focus on our federal program because the federal government has created a national green energy program called the Canada greener homes initiative, and it actually provides grants from $125 to $5,000. For eligible home retrofits and up to six $100 towards the cost of a pre and post retrofit home energy audit, their program also offers up to $40,000 in interest free loans with a repayment term of 10 years to help you undertake home retrofits. And so with respect to heat pumps, specifically, rebates through this program range from $2,500 for ductless, air source heat pump system to $5,000 for a centrally ducted cold climate, air source, heat pump. So, you know, between the federal incentive and any additional provincial or regional incentives and the financing options that are available that are in this case, no no interest and spread over 10 years, it can make a lot of financial sense to invest in a heat pump, you know, depending on your circumstances. And so I'll also say for our local listeners here in Ottawa that the City of Ottawa is Better Homes program also offers low interest loans for home energy efficiency and carbon reducing retrofits including heat pumps.   Dan Seguin  26:13 Shawn, if memory serves me, right, you recently installed a cold climate heat pump in your home? Did you take advantage of any incentives? And did it make the project financially viable for you?   Shawn Carr  26:30 So yes, Dan, I did install a cold climate heat pump in November of last year 2022. And we did take advantage of the $5,000 federal incentive for the cold climate heat pump. In our case, there were two primary motivations for wanting a heat pump, our primary motivation was to reduce our households greenhouse gas emissions footprint, and I knew that electrifying most of our heating load using a heat pump would have the largest impact on our GHG footprint for the investment. The second motivator was the role of the federal incentive program and how that allowed us to plan the project so that I could get the system I wanted within a budget that we were comfortable with. And in our situation, what I'll say when you know, what I'll share with our listeners is like we elected to pay a bit more upfront, because we wanted a high efficiency cold climate heat pump that was backed by a good warranty, we also opted for electric backup heat rather than a high efficiency gas furnace. And I was able to do that. I had the advantage of my electrical service was able to accommodate that choice without any additional investment. And we went as far as to also investing in a more advanced control strategy, since I like data and I kind of you know, believe that they're kind of the proof is in the pudding with this stuff. And so yeah, so I'm paying close attention to you know, how much energy my heat pump compressors using the fan, the electric backup, heat, and so on. And so you know, I'll have more information to obviously share as we go through a few more heating and cooling seasons. But what I'll say is, so for our case, after applying for the federal incentive of $5,000, after we applied that to the total project cost, and actually comparing the final system costs to what it would have costed to just install another high efficiency gas furnace and a traditional air conditioning system, it only cost me about $3,000 more to get what I wanted. So I have been paying attention to my energy use over the last few months. And I would say that my energy costs are comparable to what they were before. In fact, they've actually gone down a little bit. But I've also elected to maintain my gas connection to my home, right because we have two gas fireplaces that I did not know we've elected to keep for now. And in our project case, like we, I've already noticed that my household GHG emissions have gone down by about 75%. And you know, we were able to finance the entire project over 10 years with a zero interest loan. So we're pretty happy with our decision. And what I'll say is that we've actually noticed some other intangible benefits, you know, our home is more comfortable, I would say than it was before we no longer have to worry about setting the temperature back at night and then having it ramp up before we get up. Our heat pump is designed to run at lower temperatures at lower speeds for much longer run times and they can ramp up to meet the demand in your home as it's required. So they're really kind of designed to run sort of low and slow. And for us what that meant is, you know less cold spots in different parts of our home. Warm it's kind of a constant temperature throughout. And we really noticed that difference. Also, since I completed my heat pump project, I will say that they've since announced enhanced incentives for heat pumps through our gas company. And so between the gas company and the federal program, there's actually up to $6,500 Available now. So, you know, I mean, being an early adopter cost me a bit more, but I hope others will follow.   Dan Seguin  30:29 Okay, what kind of energy savings, utility cost savings and greenhouse gas emissions reductions could be expected from the installation of a cold climate Air Source Heat Pump?   Shawn Carr  30:45 Yeah, you're probably getting tired of me saying this. But I guess again, it depends on a lot of different factors, some of which I touched on earlier. So you know, things like how old your home is, how well insulated it is, how airtight it is, you know, what type of cold climate heat pump you have, what climate zone you live in. That said, though, like getting back to, do you know, your question about what kind of energy savings and cost savings and emission reductions can you expect? What I will say is, last year natural resources Canada published a really good report that specifically assessed the cost effectiveness, energy savings in greenhouse gas emission reductions in a variety of different types of homes in different locations in Canada. And so the report, you know, sort of seeked out to answer the question that you put forward. And so what I'll do is I'll just share some of the high level findings from that report. So first of all, the report found that cold climate heat pumps generate less greenhouse gas emissions and are cheaper to operate than oil furnaces, or electric resistance heating in all parts of Canada across the board period. For the majority of Canadians, cold climate Heat pumps are going to generate less GHG emissions than gas furnaces, but it does depend on how clean the source of electricity is in your province. So that's an important consideration. But the trend is moving towards our grid getting cleaner in areas where they aren't currently clean. So I think at some point, we're going to reach a point where that statement is going to hold true right across, you know, right across Canada. The report also indicated that if you're in an all electric service scenario, meaning you're disconnected from the gas utility altogether, the results show that a cold climate heat pump system is cheaper to operate than a gas furnace in most regions of Canada. If you're like me, in a split Gas Electric scenario, meaning you've maintained the gas connection in the home for whatever reason, you know, you're you're like having a gas stove, or you're like having a gas barbecue, or you have a gas fireplace, the results showed that a cold climate heat pump system is cheaper to operate in some areas in some jurisdictions, but in other areas, overall utility costs actually increased marginally like roughly 100 to $500 a year. And I think that was the situation in provinces like Ontario, Manitoba, Alberta, and some colder regions in BC. So that's what the report found. It also highlighted that for a gas hybrid configuration, so people who opt to go for a cold climate heat pump with a gas backup furnace, that that option may be more attractive to homeowners who opt for that split gas electrical service due to the associated savings. And so all that to be said, the report lays out the expected savings from different scenarios. So I would encourage, you know, listeners to have a look if they want to understand kind of you know what the findings are in their jurisdiction for their particular use case.   Dan Seguin  33:57 Shawn, having just gone through the process, what are some of the other things people should know? If they want to consider a cold climate heat pump?   Shawn Carr  34:09 Yeah, well, I can't emphasize enough to plan early. You know, we started planning our own project at home a year in advance. And so in our case, to start the process, we had an energy audit done, which helped validate where our biggest carbon and energy impacts were and what measures we could implement to address those impacts. And the number one recommendation in the audit report we received was to consider a cold climate heat pump we did we then did some research on the incentive program requirements to understand the process for receiving the incentive and I actually got some help from one of our internal energy consultants and you know, they they have experience with heat pumps on the commercial side and they helped me model the performance of some different units and helped me with my backup heat strategy. They validated equipment sizing, you know, looked at my utility bills and really and then modeled that energy and carbon reduction savings over time based on changing energy rates. And so once we went through that process, we engaged a local contractor that had heat pump experience. And what I'll say is applying for the incentive itself is pretty straightforward. But there's a lot of demand for the program. So the process can actually take some time. The other thing I'll mention is you will also have to pay for all the project costs upfront, even if the incentives and loans are approved, so the cash isn't going to start flowing from the program until after the work is actually completed. The other piece of advice I'll provide is, don't wait until your furnace or air conditioner breaks down to think about a heat pump. You know, we had a perfectly functioning gas furnace and air conditioner that was about three quarters through its statistical life expectancy. When we started planning this project, the majority of people make H fac investment decisions at a time in crisis, such as in February, when you need heat, or in July, when you need air conditioning. And in those scenarios, you're going to be locked in to whatever system is available for another 15 years that won't deliver the benefits that a heat pump would. So I think those are just some of the things that you know, I would advise people to take into consideration.   Dan Seguin  36:29 Thanks, Shawn. Okay, let's move on. What is Canada's rate of adoption for heat pumps compared to other countries? And what would you say are the biggest barriers to adoption right now?   Shawn Carr  36:44 Yeah, good question. I mean, I've read some different statistics on adoption rates in Canada, but just ballpark what I'd say is, you know, what I've read is that there's about 750,000 air source heat pumps installed in Canada today. And by contrast, there are over 5 million homes currently heated by natural gas. And by 2030, we need more than 10% of home heating in Canada to come from heat pumps, just more than double the current levels in order to align with Canada's climate targets. And some jurisdictions will say that the percentages need to be even higher than that. I also recently read that in the US last year, annual heat pump sales rose above 4 million units for the first time, outpacing sales of gas powered furnaces. So policy incentives have certainly bolstered heat pump adoption in the US. And I think it's safe to say that the heat pump curve will take off even further. But we do need adoption to accelerate at a much faster pace if we want to meet our climate targets. To address the second part of your question, you know, barriers to adoption, I think it's a combination of things. There are barriers both on the demand side and on the supply side. So on the demand side, more education, I think, is needed. These new generation of heat pumps are far better than the versions of the past, not just in terms of efficiency, but in terms of the comfort they provide as well. I think more customer awareness is needed around the benefits of heat pumps. But the customer experience associated with adopting a heat pump can also be pretty messy. And so I think that's something that needs to be improved. And so for example, if you go to a contractor to ask about heat pumps, some don't know about heat pumps, or some don't want to sell them. And so that can result in a poor customer experience. In addition, often this engagement, as I said earlier, is done at a time of crisis, when something is broken, you need to make a quick impulsive decision. And so if a gas furnace or an air conditioner is all that's available in the shop, because that's what the supply chain and manufacturers are focused on, that's likely the only option you're going to have in that emergency situation. And so I think the thing that's frustrating about that is heat pumps are not that different from air conditioners, they have a few extra parts that make them a bit more expensive. So manufacturers are not prioritizing key pumps just yet. So they don't tend to be readily available. So you know, again, in an emergency repair situation, that's not the best time to make a logical long term decision that might lock you into 50 more years of higher carbon emissions. And so I talked earlier about the importance of sizing and selecting equipment properly and the inputs that contribute to that. I think that changes the sales and adoption cycle especially if you have to plan for pre and post home energy audits in order to be eligible for these rebates. So the price process is different. And it's important that it's well understood and that that the planning happened well in advance so that you can make the right choices along that journey without the recent availability of grants and, you know, low interest loans and tax rebates, heat pumps, in particular cold climate heat pumps, I'd say have been cost prohibitive for for most, but I think that's, that's starting to change now, with the new incentive programs that will make it easier for consumers to make the right sustainable long term decision. I think, you know, one of the other things is I also think we need to expand the workforce and build more capacity for trained installers, you know, while expanding manufacturing, which is all going to eventually further drive down the costs of heat pumps, we need to get to a point where every air conditioner that's being replaced is just automatically being substituted by a heat pump. Instead, I think that that would be the desired future, there are still manufacturing constraints and supply chain vulnerabilities. And in my case, I had to wait six months for my heat pump. And that happened to be during the pandemic when supply chains were even more constrained. But you know, whether it's six weeks or six months, that's not feasible in terms of the customer journey, when taking into consideration this technology. So I think that these are all barriers I don't have. There isn't a magic bullet. I think they all just need to be addressed simultaneously.   Dan Seguin  41:29 Now, I'm hoping you can add a bit of color here, Shawn, what would you say are some of the solutions to help overcome market constraints and accelerate adoption rates?   Shawn Carr  41:42 Yeah, good. Good question. And I think technology is always going to be an enabler, continuing to improve heat pump efficiency, and unlocking the supply chain will drive down the cost for that increased efficiency. And I think you know, that's going to be particularly important at cold temperatures, because higher efficiency at cold temperatures might mean that there is less of a need for backup heat options, or it might make those backup heat options more cost effective. And so for example, increasing the efficiency might mean not requiring as much electrical backup heat, which could alleviate having to upgrade an electrical service. Right. So that helps homeowners on the cost side, but it also helps utilities and grid planning and so on. As we add more load to the system. I think leveraging data and analytics, I think there's some opportunities there as well. If utilities can get better at predicting who will and who will not need a service upgrade. It could help with system planning. If you knew that ahead of time, we could save customers time, cost and hassle potentially, I talked earlier about just building and adopting the workforce. So thinking about how we incent H fac professionals to get additional training and educate homeowners on the benefits of heat pumps during routine service calls and make it more desirable to sell heat pumps than conventional air conditioners, we could never have enough customers. You know education. I think education drives demand and demand helps unlock supply chains. So if demand increases, or if manufacturers make heat pumps, the first option instead of an air conditioner may go a long way to help the manufacturer contractor model. And ultimately, consumers won't have to navigate all this complexity. So we have to make this an easy decision and a good customer experience for consumers. And one of the other ways to do that is to keep up with the incentives, the grants, the tax rebates, the long term low interest, no interest financing so that heat pumps just become the obvious choice and uptake continues to accelerate.   Dan Seguin  44:09 Okay. Now, what are the implications of the mass adoption of heat pumps on the electricity system?   Shawn Carr  44:18 Okay. Interesting. Well, what I'll say is that there are certainly implications particularly for heating today, we predominantly use fossil fuels, mainly natural gas to heat our homes. And so when heat pumps are installed to replace fossil fuel heat, those Heat pumps are going to increase the electricity demand in the heating season. Exactly how much demand really depends on how efficient each home is at retaining heat and the backup heat option. people happen to choose gas versus electric for example, if everyone went with electric backup heat, and we had a long, extremely cold spell a lot more peak load would be added to the system over that extreme cold period if everyone had electric backup heat. And so you know from a utility perspective, I think the approach we are taking here at hydro Ottawa is to investigate and model the implications of all types of beneficial electrification on the electricity system. So heat pumps and electric vehicles, for example, for different degrees of adoption so that we have a better understanding of the implications on grid infrastructure planning and the overall utilization of our grid. There are many factors that are going to determine what Hydro Ottawa will need to do to ensure its distribution system continues to be able to enable heat pumps for customers, such as understanding how customers use them, you know, planning our system to incorporate them and integrating other technologies like distributed energy resources and other non wire alternatives as solutions to any grid challenges.   Dan Seguin  46:10 What's the concern about heat pumps increasing demand during peak times? Are utilities preparing for this?   Shawn Carr  46:21 Yeah, so today's grid infrastructure planning is largely determined based on peak demand, you know, which currently occurs in the hottest periods of the summer months in most locations. That said, a heat pump draws a similar load to an air conditioner when it's operating in the cooling mode. So you know, if you were to replace your air conditioner with a heat pump, that's going to have a similar impact with respect to electricity use during the cooling season, like in the hot summer. On the cooling side, though, as I mentioned earlier, we're also seeing demand for air conditioning rise with more heat emergencies and extreme heat events due to climate change. So that's going to increase demand as people start installing air conditioning, or heat pumps where mechanical cooling didn't exist before in those homes. On the heating side, however, electrifying more of our heat with heat pumps might mean we could be moving towards more winter peaks in the future, as opposed to, you know, summer being a summer peaking province here in Ontario like we are today. The big question is, how much electrification? How quick. And what's it going to cost at this scale and marginal grid expansion is predictable. But when you're talking at the macro level, it's much more difficult, which is why we are planning for these different scenarios.   Dan Seguin  47:59 Now, Shawn, is it fair to say that heat pumps can contribute significantly to the electrification movement and Canada's net zero by 2050 goals?   Shawn Carr  48:12 If so, how? Dan without question, electrifying our heating and cooling systems with heat pumps, as I said earlier, are the most impactful way to reduce emissions in our homes space and water heating represents about 85% of residential GHG emissions. A heat pump for space heating alone can reduce your emissions by about 65%. And if you add a water heater in your home, you might then be 85% of the way there. So if we want to drive deeper emissions cuts as a country, a widespread switch to heat pumps could make a big difference. If uptake accelerates fast enough, this is going to require a team effort. We need stakeholders working together, not getting in the way, you know, governments, utilities, educational institutions, the workforce supply chains, manufacturers, contractors, we all need to work together to ensure that heat pumps are readily available, accessible and affordable for all Canadian households so that this becomes the default heating and cooling technology of choice in new and existing homes. So why not be proactive? Think ahead, take advantage of available incentives and consider upgrading to a GHG friendly heating technology.   Dan Seguin  49:40 Okay, now, Shawn, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Sir. Are you ready?   Shawn Carr  49:51 I'm ready, Dan.   Dan Seguin  49:52 Shawn, what are you reading right now?   Shawn Carr  49:56 I'm actually not reading a novel right now. I'm just listening to a lot of Podcasts on the energy transition Dan.   Dan Seguin  50:03 Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Maybe you do. Maybe you don't.   Shawn Carr  50:08 I would name my electric boat, One Planet, because we only got one planet. But sometimes we forget about that.   Dan Seguin  50:16 What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Shawn Carr  50:21 Well, geez, I mean it since Heat pumps are top of mind right now, I would say that this technology is pretty magical.   Dan Seguin  50:28 Okay, let's move on here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Shawn Carr  50:36 Wow, I probably would just say the social isolation we all had to experience and you know, just seeing the impact that that had on my two teenagers who were going through high school during the pandemic, which is such an important time in their development. I think that was something that was tough on them and tough on me as a parent.   Dan Seguin  51:00 Okay, a little fun here. We've all been watching a little more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?   Shawn Carr  51:10 There's been so many good TV shows lately, you know, YellowStone, House of Dragons, the Bear, White Lotus. And Your Honor, we're all great. But if I had to pick one show as the best of all time for me, it would be Seinfeld.   Dan Seguin  51:26 Lastly, Shawn, what is exciting you about our industry right now?   Shawn Carr  51:32 Well, I'd have to say it's the energy transition and everything that is happening to electrify our economy. It's complex, challenging, and a very exciting time to be at a utility. But this is really important that we get this right.   Dan Seguin  51:48 Well, Shawn, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect? Well, the best way to get me is probably by email ShawnCarr@HydroOttawa.com.   52:09 Again, thank you so much for joining me today. Hope you had a lot of fun. I did, Dan. Thanks for having me on the show. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Canada is at the forefront of the global energy transition, leading with the goal to be net zero by 2050. To get there, the electricity sector must be decarbonized by 2035, from coast-to-coast, province-to-territory. So what does that transition look like close to home? How will customers be impacted in the near future? The Ontario Energy Board’s Harneet Panesar, Chief Operating Officer, and Carolyn Calwell, Chief Corporate Services Officer & General Counsel, share their insight on thinkenergy episode 108.   Related links   Carolyn Calwell, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolyn-calwell-648318b0/ Harneet Panesar, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harneetp/ Ontario Energy Board: https://www.oeb.ca/ Engage with Us, OEB digital engagement platform: https://engagewithus.oeb.ca/ Energy Exchange: https://www.energy-exchange.net/ Adjudicative Modernization Committee: https://www.oeb.ca/stakeholder-engagement/stakeholder-engagement/adjudicative-modernization-committee   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook Keep up with the Tweets on Twitter --------- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is ThinkEnerfy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. The world is going through a major energy transition driven by a multitude of reasons. political policy, economic prosperity, environmental urgency, social change, Greta Thornburg, technological advancements and innovation to name just a few. Canada is at the forefront of the energy transition movement and certainly seen as a leader on the world stage thanks to its aggressive target, to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. Of course, the country's other closer Net Zero target is the decarbonisation of the electricity sector by 2035. emissions free electricity grids in every province, and territories across Canada in just under 12 years. For many provinces and utilities, the race to transition their energy sectors began years ago, in Ontario, where the electricity grid is already more than 90% emissions free. This was in part due to the provincial shutdown of all coal plants between 2005 and 2014. It's no longer business as usual for energy providers, how we've operated for more than 100 years is neither viable nor sustainable. It's becoming clearer and clearer that for the Net Zero future to be reality, we must go further, still eliminating and remaining emissions from our provincial grid to make wait for the electrification of our grid, our vehicles and yes, our houses and buildings. But with all of the unknowns in our evolving energy future, there needs to be a steady hand to help guide the way forward. Enter the provincial regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, energy utilities are more closely regulated than many other industries because of their unique characteristic surrounding energy supply, and delivery. So here is today's big question. Given that the electrical grid needs to be emission free by 2035, what does the energy transition look like here at home in Ontario? What can customers expect in the near future? Today, my special guests are Carolyn Calwell, Chief Corporate Service Officer and General Counsel, and Harneet Panesar, Chief Operating Officer of the Ontario Energy Board. Welcome to the show, Carolyn. And perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourselves, your background, and why you chose to join the Ontario Energy Board.   Carolyn Calwell  03:39 Thanks, Dan. I'm a lawyer by training. I started off in private practice at a big firm and then I moved into the public sector, first at the municipal level and later at the provincial level. Shortly after I began working for the Ontario Provincial Government, I got into energy when that ministry merged with the one I was hired to. And that gave me the opportunity to work on the energy file in progressively senior legal positions, while also serving some other ministries. I eventually became an assistant deputy minister at the Ministry of Energy with a broad portfolio that touched on things like distribution, transmission, agency oversight, indigenous energy policy issues, all kinds of things, lots of fun with a lot of challenging files, and always with great people to work with. So then, when the restructuring of the EOEB came along, I got excited about where the OEB  was gonna go. On a personal level, I saw an opportunity to work on things from both policy and legal perspectives as the chief Corporate Services Officer and General Counsel. And I saw the chance to learn some new skills in the corporate services side of things. And I also saw an opportunity to learn the role of the regulator and get a new perspective on files I'd worked on. So most enticing though, was the opportunity to make some changes a lot like her nude, so I was thrilled by the opportunity to come over.   Harneet Panesar  04:54 Alright, thanks, Dan. So in terms of my background, maybe I'll open it up by saying you know, Today as we talk, I'm hoping to bring three different perspectives, and three different hats that I can wear. And the first one is that a utility, you know, I've spent about 14 years working for Hydro oOne, which is Ontario's largest transmission and distribution company. And I did nine different roles across the organization. And most recently, just before I left, I was Director of Strategy and Integrated Planning. My team looked after the investment plan, the overall capital that the utility was looking to spend, I had the strategy Research and Development Innovation team. And I also had a team that focused on reliability, which is a very important outcome for utility. So we focused on metrics benchmarking studies, and I had a really cool team. I'm an engineer by background. So I find this fascinating, I had a team that did post event investigations. So when equipment fields, we bring in massive cranes, pull them out, and dissect them to see what went wrong, and try and see if there's any systematic issues that we could look to solve across the system. I also had a team that looked after the modernization of the joint use portfolio, which is the use of the poles that are looking to attach other things aside from electricity, infrastructure, it could be things like fiber and telecommunication things or other things that, you know, cities and municipalities might want to attach to poles. And lastly, we also looked after secondary land use for hydro and corridors and pathways for things like parking, lots, parks, pathways, things like that. In June of 2021, I got a phone call about the opportunity at the Ontario Energy Board to join as Chief Operating Officer. And really, it was about modernizing the regulators. And the value proposition of that was huge. And it was just something I can see, it was exciting to know that that was taking place with someone who's in industry. And I saw some of the work that Susanna was doing. And so it was a no brainer. It was something that I wanted to do. And so I joined the Ontario Energy Board June of 2021. And so I'll bring the regulator perspective, obviously, in the conversation. And the third perspective is that of academia, I've been teaching energy, energy innovation, energy storage courses to Master's students, at the university level. And I think it's important when we talk about energy, we look across borders, we don't just get confined with current practices or policies or rules and regulations. Sometimes when we're trying to explore innovative ideas, we need to broaden that scope. And so I'll look to sometimes also bring in some of the academic view of what's happening in this space, too. So those are sort of three perspectives and from our background.   Dan Seguin  07:22 So, Carolyn, for those that don't know, what is the Ontario Energy Board, and what does your organization do?   Carolyn Calwell  07:33 the Ontario Energy Board, or the OE B is the independent regulator of Ontario's electricity and natural gas sectors. An important part of our mandate is to inform consumers and protect their interests with respect to prices, reliability, and quality of electricity and natural gas services. We have oversight over roughly 60% of the electricity bill, and we influence a large part of natural gas bills. We work closely with companies that work in the sector, distributors, transmitters, generators, and with associations like the Ontario Energy Association, the Electricity Distributors Association, CHEC. And of course, with the Independent Electricity System Operator and the Ministry of Energy, we're really just one piece of a much bigger puzzle.   Dan Seguin  08:13 Harneet, there's been a lot of discussion lately about the energy transition in our industry. What does that mean? Exactly? And how will the Ontario Energy Board support the transition?   Harneet Panesar  08:31 Sure, and maybe I can begin this one by even just focusing on the word energy transition, you know, it sounds nice and clear, cotton sounds like there's a linear glide path to this transition, that's going to happen. But you know, it's multifaceted. It's very complex, huge capital dollars are going to be required, it's gonna be a need for a lot of collaboration and how we move forward on it. So it's a very complex transition that's underway right now. And let me also talk to you about it. From what are some of the drivers, you know, a lot of times we talk about transition, we talk about the innovation behind it. And we also focus on what are the catalysts behind some of this change? And we often frame our conversation using four D's and I know in the industry, there's a debate whether there's three days or five, I think we've taken middle ground here, so let's go with our four D's. So the first one is Decarbonisation. You know, as you look globally, or you look federally you look even down to the consumer level, there are commitments being made and choices that are deliberately being made with regards to emissions and and a goal and targets that are being said with regards to decarbonisation. One of the sectors that I know that's going to be really impacted by this is transportation. They have the ability to make some significant changes in terms of the release of greenhouse gasses, and we're seeing a massive shift from combustion engines to EVs (electric vehicles). And so what does that mean? That means a huge need for electricity to also feed these. And maybe I'll also just take a pause and say that, you know, when I talk to other jurisdictions in Ontario, we're quite fortunate, a lot of our generation here is non-emitting, about over 90% of our generation is not emitting. And sometimes we take that for granted, you know, I talked to some of our colleagues down south, or even across the country, they can only dream to get to where we're at in the near future. We're pretty lucky to be where we are from that perspective. And so when we look at what we need to fuel these vehicles, we're going to need a grid that has the ability to supply this type of demand. So what is the EOB doing about it? There's a couple of things. The first one is we've got a couple of industry working groups that are really helping to lead the charge on making clear decisions on what is the process, you do some of this stuff. One of them is the DER connection review workgroup. And I'm excited to say that, you know, we've, we've broken up this work into tranches, and we've made some substantive releases already on changes that we've proposed to our distribution system code. These are really there to help reduce burdens, and, and really help bring on adoption of things like EVs. And I should also back up and just say, you know, when I talk about DER connections, DER stands for Distributed Energy Resources and EVs fall within that category, too. We also know that the grid will need to be able to supply this power, we have a working group called the Regional Planning Working Group that is focused on making sure that regions have what they need to be able to supply this type of energy. And that includes providing them guidance with what they need to look at when it comes to planning for that future. And how do we fill that all in? Well, we also updated our filing requirements. And so our filing requirements are really there to articulate to applicants that come forward to the Ontario Energy Board with their applications to say, look, this is what we need from you. And we've been pretty clear that we've updated our requirements to include things like electric vehicle integration, adoption, into their load forecasting and planning, we need to make sure that utilities are putting the building for the load that's required, based on the Evie adoption in the province. The next D is Digitalization. No, back in the day, our distribution system was just poles and wires, and maybe some fuses. But it's become a lot more complicated. We've deployed a lot more grid modernization in the system, a lot more innovation, and a lot more non-wires, alternatives, and different ways of investing in solving problems that the grid was having. And so what role does the Ontario Energy Board have in that? Well, number one, prudency is something that we expect utilities to take into account when they're building out their investment plans. So we're to check for prudency and make sure that the liability service quality and cost is all kept in mind. The other aspect is, you know, as we digitize the system, there are other risks that come with it, and we need to make sure we're managing them. There are new risk factors that get created from a cybersecurity perspective. And obviously, the Ontario Energy Board plays an important role. You know, we established the Cybersecurity Advisory Committee a number of years back that helped build Ontario's cybersecurity framework, which is something we expect utilities to look at, and also report annually on how they are ready and mature to respond to detect and deal with cybersecurity threats. The last two days, and maybe I'll just kind of shorten this by bringing them together. It's around decentralization and democratization. But the role of consumers is changing. And the investments and the choices that they're making are also changing. You know, the fact that you can go to a shopping mall and go pick up an Eevee, and maybe even a battery pack. These are, by definition, consumer products. Now, they're no longer utility grade investments, like Pull Top investments, switch gears, things like that, the role that they're playing is important. And so going back to our DER. Working Group, it's important that we make sure that we look at the integration of these types of consumer choices into our grid. So that's, that's maybe a roundabout way of looking at all of our structures and the innovation that's taking place and the catalysts that are fueling the energy transition there.   Dan Seguin  13:53 Carolyn, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what you believe is driving the energy transition.   Carolyn Calwell  14:00 Thanks, Dan. I see this largely the same way Harneet sees it, but I would say it maybe a little bit differently. I agree that the four Ds are the catalyst for the energy transition decarbonisation and the move to net zero emissions, the need to deal with and respond to climate change. Digitalization in my mind reflects the growing internet of things and the need for new tools and technologies that allow us to use energy differently. We've talked about decentralization and Harneet mentioned the move away from grid scale, utility planning to decentralized resources, whatever technology or weather wherever they may sit on this system. And her need also mentioned democratization about the changing expectations of customers and their relationship with energy. And in my mind, that just leads to increasing customer choice. So, you know, I think there's tremendous opportunity in all of this, and of course, tremendous challenge. But I think what's exciting is that there's broad consensus that this is a time of extreme change, and there's an imperative to actually make that change. So at the end of the day, it's pretty exciting.   Dan Seguin  15:05 Okay, our need, what does the electric future look like from an industry perspective, and from a customer perspective?   Harneet Panesar  15:15 So let me first look at the customer perspective. And maybe even the term customer, I think, is looking to evolve. As we look at energy markets around the world, we know that consumer choices and how consumers interact with their energy is changing. And even the role of consumers is changing. You know, the term prosumer is also one that is often used in which consumers aren't just consuming power, but they're producing them. And so therefore, the Pro and the prosumer. You know, that's an important aspect of how the grid may evolve. And we're certainly seeing changes in perspective, talked about decarbonisation, just a few minutes ago, that will also create a higher dependency of reliable power while managing costs. So you know, going back to our discussion around EVs, you know, nowadays, if there are reliability issues, utilities will get phone calls. And you know, that hear about power, power off situations where the lights aren't working, or ice cream is melting, or the air conditioner just isn't going. But just imagine the dependency that gets created when you know, I've got to go to work the next morning, and I couldn't go because I couldn't charge my vehicle, you know, the dependency on the grid is gonna grow. But I think there are a lot of opportunities in this type of environment. Also, you know, if Carolyn, for example, is working from home and doesn't need her vehicle, well, maybe I can take 20% of her battery, and then perhaps you're on vacation, and maybe you don't need part of your vehicle, I could maybe take 30% of your battery, you know, I've got 50% of the charge. And now I've got an opportunity to actually use my vehicle. The shifting of how sort of load and suppliers is going to be looked at on the distribution side, I think is exciting. We're seeing a lot of these micro grids around the world interact on these sort of transactive markets. But at the end of the day, you know, the value proposition for consumers is shifting look, I've now got a vehicle that has charge and lets me get to where I need to go. And both you and Carolyn have now gotten some dollars in your pockets for helping me out by supplying some of the energy that you didn't need. This is a real shift. I think that's happening from the consumer perspective and multiple different facets. From the industry perspective, I think we're going to need a lot of help and dependencies on industry to help guide us through this energy transition, you know, there's a lot of capital that is going to need to be spent, there's going to be a lot of steel that's going to be required for Transformers or pole tops, and, and even steel towers and conductors, there's a lot that's going to be required from a supply chain perspective. But there's also growth, I mean, this is an opportunity, there's a lot of growth that's going to take place in the economy for jobs. And we also know that there's gonna be industry in terms of labor markets, to be able to help supply and build the infrastructure that we're going to need for the future. And that includes maybe in adapting some of the skill sets. And I've been speaking to colleges and universities over the last year, and they've been asking, you know: what does the energy industry need in terms of the skills or the shortages? Is there an evolution of the skills that are required, and with all the transition and change that are taking place? I think the labor markets are also important to us to make sure that they're up to speed with helping us get to where we need to be. I think the last aspect maybe I'll cover off in terms of the industry is, I think there's a lot of new players that are entering the energy market, which we haven't seen traditionally, in the past. I've talked about automotive manufacturers moving away from combustion engines to electric vehicles. I think they're going even further by opening up subsidiaries focusing on energy. It's a pretty bold move for the automotive industry to be forming these massive subsidiaries. But even on the technology side, you know, we're seeing companies like Microsoft take stronger and larger positions within energy. So I think we're seeing a shift. And even in industry, I think we're seeing a lot of new players that are joining in.   Dan Seguin  18:52 Okay, so what's the greatest risk to the electricity grid, Harneet?   Harneet Panesar  18:57 So when I think about risk, and you know, I often reflect on that word, because I think when you look at risk, it usually is a reason for why adoption of things like innovation just gets repeated. And even in the energy industry, we've got a wide variety of entities that have different risk appetites. And some of them, you know, stakeholders, shareholders, customers may not be looking to them to take the greatest risk. But what we do know is that there are entities that thrive on the risk reward model. And I think it's important that we look at risk blending, we talk about risk. And why do I bring this all up? The need for collaboration is so important when we talk about moving forward in this transition. You know, in Ontario, I'd say we've got the most complex energy market in North America. I've got 800 Almost licensed entities, and I've got 60 local distribution companies fairly complex that's on the electricity. And we've also got gas distributors. It's fairly complex. So in terms of what is the one of the greatest risks I think alignment and how we move forward. The risk in this would be misalignment. You know, there's no room to backpedal, we need to collaborate and work together and make sure that there's no room to backpedal, and that we move forward collaboratively. So misalignment, I think, could be a risk, but we're making sure we're doing whatever we can. And I know there's various entities within the energy sector that are trying to make sure we're working together, you know, we're holding hands and might be taking penguin steps to make sure we don't slip here. But I think when you hold hands, we'll get a bit more firmness. And we can take bigger, bigger steps forward.   Dan Seguin  20:33 Harneet, what kinds of major investments and other considerations need to be made to deliver the energy transition to the province?   Harneet Panesar  20:43 So when I look at some of the studies that have just recently passed, the IESO released their Pathway studies. And we know that when they looked at generation and transmission, it's gonna require hundreds of billions of dollars, some fairly substantial investments on that front, the other side to this whole thing, and going back to the sort of consumer side is, you know, the tail end of the delivery of power is also going to require a huge influx of dollars. So the distribution system is going to require a lot, I will say that, you know, within our province, you know, we've got a lot of aging infrastructure that we also need to deal with. So it's not just about the forward move around the energy transition, but we also need to look at the assets that we have, the age of them, the condition of them, and really make sure that as we're spending the money, we're still holding things up. While we're also moving forward. You know, there's a lot of advancements in the system, in terms of the dollars that we've spent on the distribution system, primarily, I'd say, on deployment of capital open fields. But we're also seeing a lot of shifts on how some of that technology is now being utilized out into distribution systems. I know that, you know, we talked about dependency on the system. The minister has also asked us as part of his letter of direction to us to help provide recommendations going forward on resiliency and responsiveness and cost efficiency. And I think that's an important consideration that we need to look at when we build out capital plans and look at how we're going to build out the future. Extreme weather events are impacting our grid and energy system, the infrastructure, so the energy systems are vulnerable to that. And we need to make sure that we're resilient and we're able to respond to things like that. And lastly, you know, the other aspect around a lot of the investments that we just talked about, again, is around cybersecurity and the importance of making sure that we're ready for any of those types of issues too.   Dan Seguin  22:28 Carolyn, I read that the Ontario Energy Board's new legislated mandate is to facilitate innovation in the energy sector. How will you do that?   Carolyn Calwell  22:41 A mandate to facilitate innovation with regard to electricity was added to our legislative objectives in 2020. And this put innovation squarely in the mix for us. I thought it signaled to the energy sector a need to take new approaches to doing business, and to think about the services they provide to customers. And it signaled to the OEB that we also need to think about new approaches and new ways to do business. And so we've tried to do that through programs like our innovation sandbox, where we've encouraged local distribution companies to come to us with ideas about how they want to make change, and to test those ideas out in a safe regulatory environment where we can talk through the barriers and hurdles that they face or that they perceive to see what what really stands in their way. We've tried to do this through work like ours in our framework for energy innovation, where we asked the sector to come together to talk about distributed energy resources and how we go about dealing with the questions that they pose. What does it mean for utilities to use them? What barriers are there? So we've tried to take new approaches to having conversations about different types of innovation, and to encourage others to come to us to talk about these things. The change to our objective occurred at the same time as a restructuring of the governance of the OEB. And I think that really underscored for us our change mandate. But when we talk about innovation, our Chief Commissioner would remind me, very wisely Anderson, that our objective has always existed in balance. So innovation is never our only driver. It's one of several others, which include informing consumers and protecting their interests, promoting economic efficiency and cost effectiveness across the sector, and promoting electricity conservation and demand management. So there's a lot going on for us and for everyone in the sector in addition to innovation.   Dan Seguin  24:36 Okay, now, let's talk about the Innovation Task Force. With the report now released, where does it all go from here? Can regulation and innovation coexist and even flourish?   Carolyn Calwell  24:53 I think regulation and innovation have to coexist. We've been talking about change a lot this afternoon. I I don't think we have any choice. But to innovate. Our innovation task force was about strategy and governance, and this was an initiative by our board of directors to ask about disruptive change in the sector and its implications. And to make sure that the OEB was positioned to prepare for that change. The work involved jurisdictional scanning, looking at broad disruptive technologies and trends across the globe, and to look at what other regulators were doing about it. And that certainly provided inspiration for us. And at the same time, we curated experts working at global national and provincial levels to help us understand disruption in the sector, what they were seeing and what they were working on. So all of that informed the strategy that our Innovation Task Force adopted. And what we're trying to do with that is now map out what the OEB is doing about the energy transition. We've got a lot of projects and go and a lot of things that touch the energy transition, but don't necessarily do that directly. People need to understand how those fit together, and how they actually get at the big policy question of the day. What are we doing about climate change and about the energy transition? So what we've tried to do through our engagement with our website is map out the different projects, how they come together, and what people can expect about where they're going. If listeners haven't checked it out, I really encourage you to look at the OED "Engage with us" web page and see all that we have going on and what the next steps are across these projects. There's no shortage of work here. And we're asking a lot of people to come together to meet with us and try to make it work.   Dan Seguin  26:33 Harneet, on the topic of electric vehicles (EVs), what about supporting mass EV adoption? What can you tell us about the proposed ultra low overnight price plan for electricity? And how will it help get more EVs on the road?   Harneet Panesar  26:52 Sure. Thanks, Dan. And when we look at things like ultra low overnight price plans, I think it's also important for us to reflect on the fact that I think I'm sure he's made some good choices in terms of deploying the right capital. Over the years, you know, we sometimes take for granted that we have what is known as AMI, which is Advanced Meter Infrastructure. The fact that we have smart meters deployed across the province, is huge, because it enables us to do things like these price plans. You know, I talked about other jurisdictions, not everyone has smart meters like we do, and therefore don't have the ability to actually even implement price plans. But let me tell you why it's important and why having some of these plans is helpful. Utilities often build to meet peak demand, whenever the demand is there, they're trying to make sure that they have the infrastructure required to meet it. And by introducing pricing plans, which create the right incentives and choices that can help leave to sort of behavioral changes from a consumer perspective, that will ultimately also help utilities manage how they build their system. And what that means is they'll be able to not just build the peak but better manage peaks. You know, if we're able to utilize the system when it's not at peak or it's not fully utilized, there's available capacity generation available. There's no bottlenecks in the system. That's when we want people to use power. And so generally, you know, overnight is when the system is a little bit quieter, and we're able to actually, you know, supply a lot more power. And so for folks like myself, who have an electric vehicle, you know, I have no problems charging overnight. In fact, it's fantastic. And having the right incentives to keep people charging overnight means that we take any additional peaks on the system during the day that might occur away. And ultimately, that also means that it helps keep rates lower, because utilities don't need to invest additional capacity, because they're better able to manage when people are consuming their power. So price plans like the ultra low overnight plan is one way of curbing the behavior and incentivizing sort of the right approach on when we want people to be using the grid to feed things like their electric vehicles.   Dan Seguin  29:03 Okay, now, how does natural gas fit into the energy transition to a carbon free future in the province? What strides are being made in the natural gas sector or Harneet?   Harneet Panesar  29:18 So I think it's an important question. And it's something that we think about quite often at the Ontario Energy Board. You know, natural gas has a lot of potential to replace some of the higher emitting fossil fuel energy sources that are still being used for mostly industrial processes here in Ontario. And to maybe give you an example, you know, one of our natural gas distributors is working with steel mills, to try and replace some of their coal usage with natural gas, which would also bring down some of their greenhouse gas emissions. But you know, when you talk about Net Zero and sort of the net zero future, it's obviously going to involve things like large reductions and even eventually eliminating the GHG emissions from the US to greenhouse gasses, and that's gonna require a couple of things. It's gonna require a combination of energy conservation, some electrification, carbon capture and storage, and even a shift to use things like orangey, which is renewable natural gas, and even other new fuels like hydrogen. There's already work that's underway. Enbridge has been investing about $120 million a year. And this is really around some of the conservation programs. And we also just had a recent decision that the will be rendered. And in that we're going to increase the amounts that are going to be spent. And this is also going to include a new home energy efficiency program that's going to be offered by Enbridge gas, and it's going to be in partnership with Enercon, which is Natural Resources Canada, you know, thinking about what are the next steps, the OEB has also convened a group of experts to help identify and evaluate future opportunities for natural gas conservation. And really, finally, I just want to make sure, I know, acknowledge that, you know, millions of residential, commercial industrial consumers, we've got three and a half million gas consumers who depend on natural gas to heat their homes and run their businesses. And the OEB is going to continue to support these consumers by ensuring natural gas is delivered to them safely, reliably and responsibly.   Dan Seguin  31:14 Okay, again, this one's for you Harneet. Ontario is Canada's most populated province, can you tell us a bit about how you ensure Ontarian voices are heard, and included in your decision making?   Harneet Panesar  31:30 Yeah, so we've got 5 million electricity consumers I just mentioned, we've got three and a half natural gas consumers. So we've got a fairly large consumer base. And it's really important that we hear what Ontarians have to say. And so we've done a couple of things. And let me run you through them. The first one Carolyn, alluded to earlier, which was around making sure people could engage with us, we actually opened up a new platform and launched it, and it's called engage with us. And if you ever wanted to join it, just Google, we'd be engaged with us. And it really lays out all the various initiatives and work streams and programs that the Ontario Energy Board is undertaking. It gives timelines, it has documents, it even has a friendly smile of some of our staff that are helping lead the work along with their emails, so you can contact and reach out to us, it's one way of us making sure that we're transparent about all the work we're doing. And we're engaging with tumors, and taking in any input that they may have. So that's one way the other, the other piece that I think is really important is listening to the customers themselves. About a year ago, just shortly after I joined the Ontario Energy Board, I started a program called voice of the customer. And it was an important program for me, because one of the one of the teams that I have within my shop is responsible for the call center, they take in the calls, the emails, and the chats. And it's one thing to see all that data on a dashboard, or you know, in a PowerPoint slide deck, it's another thing to actually get on the horn and actually hear the voices of consumers, understand their sentiment, hear the emotion, hear their voices. And it was really important for me to be able to do that. And so we set up this program, and it's a monthly occurrence in which myself and my peers, the executive team, we get on the call, and we hear the voice of the customers, we hear what they're saying to us. And so that's one other way that we connect with our consumers. The other thing I'll note is that, you know, our adjudication process is a public process. And, you know, we look forward to having Ontarians participate in that we do also have consumer interest groups, part of that. But we also look to utilities to make sure that as they're building out their plans, that they're engaging with consumers, they also have a role to engage with them and make sure that they're delivering what consumers want. I'll also just put in a bit of a plug that, you know, I talked a little bit about our call center that handles the calls and emails and chats, we get almost 10,000 interactions. And these are really important data points for us. And you know, I created a part of the organization about a year ago called Operation Decision Support, to really help us make data driven decisions. And so collecting information from our calls is very vital. But the point I want to make is that we also have a chat function, which also won an award about a year, year and a half ago. And it's not fed by robots. It's actually the same agents that would also pick up your calls and also respond to emails. So the message you get is very aligned and consistent. We're very proud of, you know, our ways of being able to communicate with our consumers.   Harneet Panesar  34:19 Okay, now it's your turn, Carolyn, let's talk about the OEB's two stakeholder committees. What are the energy exchange and adjudication of the modernization committee all about?   Carolyn Calwell  34:34 Our stakeholders are critical to us. And so we've made some deliberate efforts to create structures to engage them. Energy Exchange is a form of CEOs and senior leaders. And it's really a tremendous platform where we receive advice about our priorities and direction. We've tried to use that forum, not just to talk to people but to hear from and to engage them on questions. Is that we're struggling with? What should we focus on? How should we go about our work? What matters to them, because it's important that the regulator, not just tell everybody what to do, but also listen to the sector that we work in. So this advice has been really critical for us. And it's really helped us on work, for instance, around the letter of direction that we received from the minister, as we've tried to figure out how to unpack that letter, to figure out what the priorities are within it, and how to actually deliver against it. The adjudication modernization committee is made up of regulatory experts, and they give us advice and provide feedback on all things that you indicate from rules of practice and procedure and filing requirements, to advice about intervenors. This has a specific focus to consider best practices and approaches to adjudication. And what's particularly helpful I think about this group is that they have a direct line with the Chief Commissioner. So it's a way for her to talk to stakeholders, and hear about what matters to them on what happens in the hearing room, and everything that goes around. So these are just two examples of how we engage with our stakeholders. But we value tremendously the various working groups, forums, meetings that we call that people participate in, because we know we ask a lot of people we know we demand a lot of their time and a lot of their thinking. But this is all part of the communication that we need on the two way street, so to speak. And, and we really do value everything that people give us in these various forms.   Dan Seguin  36:31 SoI'll ask you both. What is Ontario doing right, right now, that gives you hope, either provincially, or from the energy sector itself?   Carolyn Calwell  36:47 I'll jump in on though, you know, we've spent the afternoon talking about some of the challenges that the energy sector faces and that, you know, that really society faces. And these are big, big challenges, daunting tasks ahead of us. But what gives me hope is that there are some tremendously smart people in our sector and a real commitment to work together. So we're all in this together, we all have a role to play. And I truly believe that we'll make progress.   Harneet Panesar  37:19 Well, I totally agree with Carolyn. I mean, you know, this notion of collaboration coming together and working together, I think we're doing a lot of things right. From that perspective, even this podcast, you know, being here and talking to you and connecting with your listeners, hopefully, that brings a bit of a circle back to us and people reaching back out to us, we need to, you know, no one can be operating in a black box, you need to collaborate and work together. The only other thing, maybe I'll say, in terms of what we're doing what we're doing, right, and I'm going to put on my proud Canadian engineering hat on here and say, look, we've been pioneers in the energy space for decades, you know, when it came to hydroelectric generation in southern Ontario, to even the CANDU nuclear reactors, I think Canadians have been doing a lot to pioneer push the energy sector forward. And you know, advancements and technologies even like SMRs, I think is, is a proud moment for Canadians and leading the charge and how energy is now sort of delivered, you know, bringing energy sources closer to where they're being consumed. And these are game changing types of investments and technologies that, you know, Ontario is making. So definitely a lot of things, things of pride. And I think a lot of things that we're doing right, Dan,   Dan Seguin  38:23 Carolyn, and Harneet, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions.Are you ready?   Carolyn Calwell  38:33 Ready to go.   Dan Seguin  38:36 Harneet, maybe you could start us off by telling us what you're reading right now?   Harneet Panesar  38:42 Okay, well, I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that every night I read Paw Patrol and Peppa Pig for bedtime. That's not my bedtime at someone else's bedtime. But in terms of myself when I put my feet up. Now I just picked up a book. It's not new on the shelf. It's just new to me. I haven't had a chance to really go through it, but it's a book by Rupi Kaur or R-u-p-i, last names core K-A-u-R. And it's a political novel and the book is called The Sun and Her Flowers.   Dan Seguin  39:09 Okay,what about you, Carolyn?   Carolyn Calwell  39:11 I'm reading some essays from MFK. Fisher in the Art of Eating. It's fantastic. Very funny.   Dan Seguin  39:19 Okay, Carolyn, who is someone that you truly admire?   Carolyn Calwell  39:24 Retired Chief Justice Beverley McLaughlin has to top my list.   Dan Seguin  39:27 And what about you, Harneet? Who do you truly admire?   Harneet Panesar  39:32 I would say it would be my 99 year old grandfather, who was a retired Air Force engineer from the Royal Indian Air Force who lived a very colorful life full of incredible stories and journeys. And as always a source of inspiration for me.   Dan Seguin  39:51 Okay, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite movies or shows?   40:01 For me, Madness is coming up. So my TV is dedicated to women's NCAA basketball.   40:08 I'm a bit of a foodie. And I have a bit of a travel bug. So I like traveling and eating. And so there's a series called Somebody Feed Phil, which brings sort of traveling and food together and a little bit of comedy. So it's a nice casual watch. So we've been watching a lot of that.   Dan Seguin  40:23 Lastly, Harneet, what is exciting you about your industry right now?   Harneet Panesar  40:30 For me, it's changed. And, you know, maybe I'm a creature of change. It's sort of where I thrive. But it's exciting to see us move forward and in the directions we are in. So for me, change is really what's exciting. I'm proud to be part of it. I'm looking forward to what the future brings with it.   Dan Seguin  40:50 Okay, what about you, Carolyn, what's exciting you?   Carolyn Calwell  40:54 I couldn't agree with Harneet more, change is exciting. I think there's a tremendous opportunity ahead of us. I think we're gonna see the world shift, and I'm eager to be part of it.   Dan Seguin  41:04 Well, Carolyn, and Harneet. This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The Think Energy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?   Carolyn Calwell  41:20 They can find us on LinkedIn or at OEB.ca. And we're eager to hear from everybody.   Dan Seguin  41:28 Again, thank you both so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Carolyn Calwell  41:34 Thank you so much for having us.   Dan Seguin  41:38 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.    

Trees play an important role in carbon sequestration, slowing the rise of greenhouse gas emissions as they grow. But during extreme weather, trees can bring down power lines, damage equipment, ignite fires, and cause power outages. They add a layer of complexity to maintaining a resilient power grid. In thinkenergy episode 107, Hydro Ottawa’s Nick Levac, Supervisor of Distribution Operations, and Greg Tipman, Forestry Inspector, discuss how to minimize power outages while preserving a healthy urban forest.   Related links   Nick Levac, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklevac/  Greg Tipman, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-tipman-b5bb73a1/ Hydro Ottawa Tree Planting Advice [PDF]: https://static.hydroottawa.com/documents/publications/safety/tree_planting_advice-EN.pdf   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Faceboom   Keep up with the Tweets on Twitter   ----------------   Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. While local and global efforts focus on achieving net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 through the electrification, or transformation of certain industries, it is also important to consider the significant role natural climate solutions can play in greening communities. Warren Buffett famously said, someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Trees make our world a beautiful place and provide us with many lasting benefits, such as shade, privacy, shelter, and food, and they contribute to our mental well being. Aside from those benefits, trees play an important role in carbon reduction, slowing the rise of GHG emissions as they grow. But if you know anything about electricity, you know that electricity and trees seldom mix. That doesn't mean they can't be good neighbors though. Across the City of Ottawa, there are an estimated 185,000 trees in proximity to Hydro Ottawa was 2800 kilometers of overhead high voltage power lines. When trees are close enough to potentially contact overhead power lines, public safety and the uninterrupted supply of electricity can be compromised. Utilities have a responsibility to ensure its electricity distribution system is safe, and that it operates reliably. Because of that, they must also ensure that their equipment can withstand extreme weather events such as high winds, and heavy snow falls and ice. broken tree branches can bring down power lines and create serious public safety concerns like damaged equipment fires and power outages. All of which can be a frustrating and costly experience for both the utility company and customers. In an urban area, the presence of trees adds an additional layer of complexity to the challenge of maintaining reliable and resilient power grids. Finding a way to minimize power outages while preserving a healthy urban tree canopy is an important goal for urban planners and utility companies. Through a combination of strategic tree planting, pruning and maintenance, as well as the use of technology and innovative solutions. It's possible to strike a balance between these two important priorities, ensuring that the city remains livable, and sustainable for years to come. Responsible tree trimming and maintenance has resulted in reducing power outages by 40%. In Ottawa alone, with extreme weather events we've witnessed in the past few years, and as the climate continues to change, the outcome will create more problems for utilities to provide reliable power to customers without extended outages. So here is today's big question. In the age of climate change and environmental responsibility, how can utility companies strike a balance between maintaining reliable service, minimizing outages and maintaining a healthy and vibrant urban forest? To help us better understand this balancing act? I've invited Nick Novak, who's the supervisor of distribution operations, and a forestry inspector Greg Tipmann. Welcome both. Greg, I'll start with you. Can you tell us a bit about your work? And what the biggest misconceptions are about tree trimming and vegetation control programs when it comes to electricity?   Greg Tipman  04:49 For sure, Dan, and just just again, thanks for having us on your podcast this morning. Getting the kind of meat potatoes my daily job encompasses: speaking with customers, addressing the vegetation concerns around power lines, auditing the contractor we use, which is Aspen tree service. There's also coordinating our jobs, our time and material jobs. So it's stuff that I look at and deal with the customer then gets delegated directly to a secondary crew to do that specific work for the customer. There's also writing of prescriptions for any work for other jobs for the customers. So specific work they want hydro Ottawa to do that's outside of our regular trim program. Some of the biggest misconceptions that I've run into is that a lot of the public thinks that our tree work is just a hack and slash that there's no thought or science put into the tree trimming that's actually going on, when, in actuality, we have a whole set of standards for proper pruning, and tree trimming of the species around the Hydra wires. And that kicks back to our working procedures or our lifeline clearing techniques. And then there's another misconception that I've run into quite a bit is that a lot of people think that for us, or for our contractor to do the tree trimming, the power has to be shut off every single time. And that's, that's not the case. We like to keep it as a very rare scenario when we do have to shut the power off. And that's usually just for a safety issue for the tree trimmers.   Dan Seguin  06:38 Okay, cool, Nick. We often say that trees and electrical wires don't mix. What types of dangerous situations can occur if they come in contact with one another? Is there a recent example you can share with us?   Nick Levac  06:58 Yeah, so I mean, first first, and mine is obviously power outages. That's kind of the first thing that we hear about when a tree comes down on our conductors. But, you know, the power outages can vary from, you know, a whole circuit right back to a substation to just localized outages in your community or along your streets. The other thing, if the tree does come down on the line, and they're in our system doesn't doesn't experience an outage, oftentimes, trees can catch on fire. So we've had, we've had examples over the years where trees are resting on a line, nobody notices it, and then eventually it'll catch on fire, which obviously can cause other issues. And especially in the summertime with dry conditions. If that does come down to the ground, it could, you know, start forest fires, which, unfortunately, our neighbors in the south and us have experienced in California and stuff. So but there was there was one larger outage and I think it was a start in November November 2, whereas a spruce tree that was quite a bit away from the line did fail, and it came down and took down to two conductors out at the end of my road, I believe it was and it caused a large outage. We were in a sense, those are almost better to have, because it's easier to find that tree and where the problem is. And we can get crews out to fix it in a quick manner. But that's probably the most recent one that we've had that had a major outage and a big impact to our system.   Dan Seguin  08:32 So we're clear, Nick, what are the guidelines that determine if tree trimming or vegetation management near powerlines is required? What does sufficient clearance from an electrical equipment look like?   Nick Levac  08:46 Yeah, so like Greg mentioned in the first question there we have our rivers going through our system, and we're looking at at standards that we trim to the cities divided up into about 30 vegetation management zones. And they're divided into either a two or three year trim cycle, which means you'll see our versus your backyard, you're on the streets, trimming out to our guidelines, either every second year, third year. Our main goal, there's a couple of them. But our main goal when we're trimming to our standards that we have,  is when we come back and either in two or three years, the vegetation that we trimmed out is still three feet away. There's different zones that we have from 10 feet back to the conductor or the live overhead wire, and from the wire out to three feet is called the restricted zone. And as I mentioned that that's where we do not want the vegetation to get into because if we if it does get in there creates a bunch of different problems for our for our tree arborist to go in there. And as Greg mentioned, outages is the last thing we want to do when we're trimming trees. And if that veg does get into that restricted zone, increased outages for trimming sometimes An option that we have to look at what we're trying to avoid. So that's, that's kind of our main goal. We look at the species a tree, and how much it would grow in a year. And as the arborist comes through, they're going to trim back that many feet. So if we have a fast growing species that grows a three or four feet a year, and we're going to be back in two years, we're going to trim that back three feet times two, plus the additional three feet. So we're looking at about a 10 foot trim on that.   Dan Seguin  10:29 Nick, pruning, and especially removal of interfering trees often caused controversy. In an age of climate change and environmental responsibility. What do you tell folks that object to or have concerns about the important work you do to help keep the lights on entry safe?   Nick Levac  10:53 Yeah, that's a great question. We, you know, our I think you hit the last word there, and your question kind of hits on our main goal of everything that we do here at Hydro is safety. So, not only are we looking out for the publics safety, ensuring that trees are coming down on the line and staying energized. But we're also looking out for worker safety. So as we're going through, we tried to do preventative maintenance, so to speak. So very much like you get your oil changed in a car, or you put your winter tires on this time of year, we're trying to trim trees away from the lines to make sure they don't come in contact that avoids outages, unplanned outages, especially because, you know, it's one thing to get a phone call to say, Hey, your power is going to be out because we're doing preventative maintenance, whether it's tree trimming, or upgrading the electrical system. It's another thing to wake up at two o'clock in the morning after like, so the heat off and everything and it's unexpected, and you're trying to get your kids ready, you're at home or whatever. So preventative maintenance is the big thing. And we try to educate our customers that what we're doing out there is really just to make sure that we can decrease outages and especially those unplanned outages. The other thing that we look at when we're pruning trees is the tree health. And I know Greg's gonna get into this, I think a little bit later on. But just looking at the species of a tree and how we trimmed them to make sure that the health of the tree is also a huge interest for our births that are up there. They're all certified trained arborists, with some extra training on the electrical side, because obviously, we're trimming around live electrical lines. But when they get up into a tree, they're looking at the health of the tree. There's a lot of stuff once they get up into the canopy of the tree that they noticed that you can't see from the ground. So they're taking into account and they're taking out any Deadwood or anything in there and and try to not only like I mentioned before getting those clearances that we need for the electrical side, but also trying to enhance the tree growth away from our lines and lucky that the health of the tree, but take any dead wood or anything out of it.   Dan Seguin  12:55 So back to you, Greg, I know you trim trees on public property that are within three meters of an overhead line. But what about on private property? trees near utility lines inherently carry serious risk to property owners who may be injured or even killed when working near powerlines? What are homeowners responsible for? And when should they call the utility to arrange for their help? Like a planned outage? Basically, what do homeowners need to know?   Greg Tipman  13:33 Yeah, Dan, so when you're speaking about the kind of responsibilities on vegetation maintenance, Hydro Ottawa is responsible for the pole the pole wire vegetation maintenance. The area around the high voltage wire that Hydro trims is part of our responsibility is 10 feet for the primary which is usually the very top wire running pole, as well as about a three foot clearance around our low voltage or secondary wires. And again, that's the pole, the pole wires. Just I want to make that bold statement. That's Hydros responsibility as part of our maintenance package. Kind of like Nick was touching up on and that that happens pending what grid what year, you know, two to three years Central, within kind of the city core versus the outer rural areas. If a customer is looking to have work done on their tree which is growing out of their private property, and it's near our overhead wires, hydro comes in free charge we get it clear 10 feet 10 feet back, debris would stay on site, and then it would be the homeowners responsibility to either cut the tree down themselves hire private tree contractor or if they wanted, they could also hire hydro Ottawa, do our work for others program and we would write them out a full And we'll treat quote, and they would, they would pay an additional cost for that work that's outside of our regular maintenance scope. Now in regards to the, the wires running pole to house service wire, or if you're in a rural area, and it's a private primary wire, there's a couple options that they have for having those what those wires that vegetation trimmed out, they can either hire a private tree contractor, and hydro Ottawa, our service department provides one free disconnect a year for any tree work a little bit more legwork for the customer or the contractor to do, but it's an entirely viable option. The second option is they can again hire hydro, to trim out their service wire, to whatever specs we normally recommend. It's a low voltage secondary wire, to have about a three foot clearance on it, they want us to go with that option. I myself would write them out a formal tree, quote, and have all the details. proof of payment forehand would be had. And then we would schedule the customer an exact date. And they would essentially have the work done to what the quote was that they're paying for the work to be done and, and go from there. It's quite effective. We've gotten a lot of feedback from the customers about having their service wire trimmed down and there's been a lot of good things to have come from having us on site. And just doing it all, not having to worry about them having to organize an outage on their house. So it's, it's been a good go.   Dan Seguin  16:39 Here's another question for you, Greg. When planting a young sapling, it's often difficult to imagine that in a few years, like 10 years, it could have a significant impact on the landscape with an expanding canopy. As a homeowner, or a landscaper, if you are planting a new tree, how important is it to contact your utility service provider to discuss your plans? Do you have any tree planting advice? Or some good resources on what to plant and where?   Greg Tipman  17:18 Yes, yes. So basically, Hydro Ottawa has a really good source on our internet page. Basically, just type in Google out "Hydro Ottawa tree planting advice," and it'll take you right to a pamphlet that's been put on the internet. And it has everything for suggestions of where the tree should be planted, what type of species is it? How tall will it grow? How wide will the canopy grow? How many feet back from an overhead wire should be planted? It has a breakdown of species names. What soils are their best to be planted in? You know, like I said, they're their typical growth structure in relation to overhead wires. And there's also advice given on planting around underground wires, which a lot of people you know, you don't see them, you don't really think they're there. But most people just see the green box, the ground transformer, if you will. But where are the wires going? What? Which way? Can I plant and whatnot. So it's a really great resource that has a lot of information, a lot of diagrams. Definitely check it out. And then another great option would be just put a call in have myself or Nick show up. And, you know, we can tell you, you know, basically where the what, what's the lay of the land? What is your yard showing you? You know, are there other trees in the neighborhood or in your yard? You can get a very good look just from seeing what's out there, what to expect. And then and then go from there.   Dan Seguin  19:08 Okay, Nick, this next question might be in your wheelhouse. A power outage occurs when there's direct contact between two conducting lines face to face, or by providing a path for electricity to travel to the ground. There are several other ways that vegetation trees in particular, can cause power outages, wondering if you could expand on the causes and how utilities and folks in your profession mitigate that.   Nick Levac  19:40 Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting question. It's obviously something we look at all the time. And that's our biggest goal within our department is to mitigate those outages and I actually came from a background in the lines department as a power line maintainer for 10 years and then and swung over and got into working with the veg management program. And, you know, I'd say it's a really good partnership that we have right now, not only with Greg and our other utility forestry inspectors, but along with our contractor Aspen who's doing the work for us. And, you know, that's a constant conversation that we're having week in, week out. And not only are we reviewing any outages that might have occurred the week before and trying to follow up on those to see why those power outages occurred and how we can hopefully prevent them from reoccurring. But within the system itself, the electrical system, we have, it's very much like your house where it's set up where we have different circuits all the way through the city. And within each circuit, we have different fusing, the further you get away from the substation. So the fusion coordination can really help out if you have a tree that falls at the very end of that circuit. We have the fusion set up in a way that it's only going to go back to the next device downstream. And if everything is working properly, that fuse will open up and it'll really shrink the size of that outage rather than going all the way back to the substation. So if you can imagine if you have 1000 customers on a circuit, and you had 10, different fuses all the way down, and that last one blows, you're gonna only affect 100 people instead of 1000 people. Also, within our system, we have devices called reclosers. So I'm sure many, many, many listeners have had their lights flicker on and off two or three times. And then unfortunately, after that third flicker, the power does stay off permanently. That means that there's a bigger issue on the line and that reclosure could self clear. So those devices are there. For momentary outages, when they see a spike in amperage, they'll open up the circuit, and give time for that tree or whatever that foreign interference is to clear itself. And then close back in with the hopes that once it closes back in that that power will stay on. If it senses that it's still there, it'll open back up again. Hopefully allow it to clear a little bit longer closed back in again, and hopefully the second time's a charm. Unfortunately, sometimes that doesn't work. And then you experienced that outage, the last kind of protection in the whole stream protection devices is that circuit breaker back at the station. That's kind of the worst case if we see a circuit open up. That means that there's a major problem. Usually, like you mentioned there, there's a face to face kind of issue where two conductors have slapped together. And that's kind of what causes the biggest outage, that's when we know we have a large problem. And the other issue with that is because our circuits are so long, some of them are you know, in the downtown core where we have more substations, it's a little bit easier to find because you know, the circuit might only be say a kilometer or two long, but if you get out into the rural Orleans, Kanata, down south though Manotick, Nepean you can have, you know, 10-15-20 kilometers a line. So if your circuit breaker and your station opens up, that means that somewhere between your station at the end of the line is your problem. So their fault indicators and stuff on your line that can help pinpoint it. But it definitely can make it more challenging when you're starting back at your substation now having to patrol 2020 kilometers a line versus if that fuse opens at the very end of your line you okay, it's the last section within that line. The other thing that can really help us out is the customers in the field. So a lot of times we'll get calls in and it's great to get that information and Hyderabad was very active on social media and that that definitely helps if, if a customer sees a problem if they see a line down if they see a bright blue flash if they hear alert, loud bang, you know, first and foremost, let us know don't ever approach down wire stay away even trees that could be leaning up against a wire. And I mentioned this before just because the trees against the wire if that wire still energizes that could potentially energize that tree. So we want to make sure we stay back, you know, stay back 10 meters from that tree, stay back 10 meters from that electrical line because you don't know if it's on or if it's still alive. So your safety is first and foremost, call 911. If there's any you know, immediate hazard fire police can come in and assist, they will get a hold of our system offers right away and direct us to that. Or if it's something that's, you know, a little bit less than you think that Hydros should know, we have lots of different social media channels you can reach out on and let us know. And that really does help because that information does find its way down to the crews in the fields and it helps us get to the outage and find that problem that's causing the outage that much quicker.   Dan Seguin  24:57 In addition to being a qualified arborist Greg, you also have extensive knowledge about electricity. Can you talk about this dual role and special qualifications that you have? How dangerous is your job? And do you work around live electricity at high voltage?   Greg Tipman  25:17 Yeah, Dan. So just a little background on my schooling and qualifications. So I did my forestry technologist diploma at Algonquin, which is a two year program. And then from there, I moved out to BC to work on some really big trees and wildlife out there. I morphed into the utility side of tree work. And that's where I went and did my apprenticeship program. From there, you need approximately 4000 hours just to qualify, the program is a two year program, you accumulate about about 6000 hours around of live line clearing, working around the wires, you learn how electricity all the bases, electricity, how it works, how to identify the equipment, that coupled with your actual tree work in the tree, the the tools, special tools you'll be using, so dielectrically tools, how to operate bucket trucks, so on and so forth, rigging big chunks of wood down and trees how to do it safely. All the while in close proximity to these overhead high voltage wires. It's very, very dangerous. I mean, you couple your, you know, 3040 5060 feet up hanging by ropes, you're using a chainsaw to cut wood. Plus you have a live line that's, you know, five, six feet away from you. So it's definitely very dangerous. But the schooling, the on the job training that you get just, you know, old hands, showing you the techniques, the up to date, safety standards, and whatnot, it makes your comfort level something that you would never, you know, come natural to you become second nature. So it's definitely a process, it's definitely building confidence over time. And then, you know, taking classes, learning, whether it's through the International Society of Arboriculture on the tree side of things for tree health, you know, what are the tree species? Biology pests? You know, a lot of times customers will ask, you know, why is my tree dying? Why is it declining? A lot of times people will think, oh, it's Hydro, you trimmed the tree incorrectly? Well, no, it's, you know, a pest infestation or you did some landscaping or whatnot, the roots have been killed and whatnot. So it's learning all that, that, you know, information and coupling it and pairing it with the electrical side of things that it really makes for a harmonious job and, you know, a great aspect to keep learning, there's always new information, new research coming out on on trees and the electrical side of things. You know, and then just just basically, you know, having the resources also at hydro Ottawa, it makes that partnership that much better for getting the work done and done safely.   Dan Seguin  28:41 Okay, so, Greg, I've seen some amazing footage of folks in your profession climbing pretty high in trees. So besides not having a fear of heights. What's that, like? And what's the favorite thing about your job? Have you ever surprised some birds or even squirrels? Or have surprised you?   Greg Tipman  29:06 Yeah, so kind of, like I was touching on there. I mean, the fear of heights is not was never really the big, big deal. It was more trusting your gear. Knowing that, you know, a 10-12 millimeter diameter rope is going to hold you and your gear. You know, it's going to hold, you know, wood swinging around and whatnot, it's not going to break off, you know that your knots have been tied correctly. They're not going to come undone, you're gonna fall to your death and get injured or whatnot. Those were kind of the first fears to really get over. But once you get that , it's practice. The more you do it, the more you get comfortable doing it, the more you feel safe and secure. I've definitely had some weird, interesting animal encounters while working in the trees. I've had birds land on my head and stay there. Are while working. I've had raccoons, you know, climb out hollows. I've had bats, you know, fly out from underneath bark. But probably the scariest wasn't in the tree yet, but we're doing some ground slash BC and probably 10-12 feet away, a black bear just goes running right by. And yeah, it was exhilarating, but it was done in a flash and yeah, nothing more. But you know, it definitely, you know, could have been a different interesting situation had the bear been a, you know, an angry bear, if you will or whatnot. But, you know, if we're, yeah, for the most part, it's the job. You get to see nature all the time. And there's always something great to see. Animal wise.   Dan Seguin  30:50 Okay, both. Are you ready to tag team and close us off with some rapid fire questions? Greg, I'm going to start with you. What's your favorite tree?   Greg Tipman  31:01 Can I give you four Dan? So Eastern White Pine, the monkey puzzle tree, Giant Sequoia, and the Charlie Brown Christmas tree.   Dan Seguin  31:12 Nick, let's move on to you. What is one thing you can't live without?   Nick Levac  31:17 That's an easy one. It's got to be my family. My two girls at home, my lovely wife, and probably a good cup of coffee or a nice americano in the morning just to get things going.   Dan Seguin  31:28 Greg, what habit or hobby? Have you picked up during shelter in place?   Greg Tipman  31:37 Probably flying and crashing my drone, I need more practice.   Dan Seguin  31:48 Okay, next one is for you, Nick. If you could have one superpower, what would it be?   Nick Levac  31:56 You know what, I think never to age physically. Only in wisdom. The body's getting a little bit older. And every time I go out and try to play hockey or do something now I wake up a little bit sore in the morning so I would keep my physical health. Maybe back when I was in my 20s. That would be amazing.   Dan Seguin  32:16 What about you, Greg, what would your superpower be?   Greg Tipman  32:20 Maybe just unlimited superpowers.   Dan Seguin  32:25 Okay, back to you, Nick. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him?   Nick Levac  32:33 You know, I probably try to let them in on a couple of neat world events that we're going to take place between then and then when they're my age now, and just tell him to go there and make sure he's present. And no matter what the cost is. Sometimes you only get what's a once in a lifetime chance to see things and make sure he gets there to experience that life.   Dan Seguin  32:58 And lastly, this one is for the both of you. What do you currently find most interesting in your sector? Greg?   Greg Tipman  33:08 It's really the day to day change, there's always a different challenge that's coming up, you're always in a different location dealing with different people. So it's never, you know, a month a monotonous job, it's always fluid, there's always something new.   Dan Seguin  33:26 What about you, Nick?   Nick Levac  33:28 What excites me the most coming down the pipe, I think it’s the technology that hopefully we're going to be exposed to. I mean, Greg mentioned crashing his drone, but you know, just even stuff like that, and us being able to fly over headlines and really take a good snapshot of what that vegetation looks like within our city. And and what we can do to kind of have a good mix between you know, maintaining that Urban Canopy in Ottawa, and then also at the same time keeping the electricity on and if we can use different types of technology that's coming down the pipe to find a balance between the two that we can get out and and proactively trim trees because we know exactly where they are. And also keep that Urban Canopy for the customers here in Ottawa. I think there's an interesting mix coming down, how we can leverage that technology to our advantage.   Dan Seguin  34:17 Nick, and Greg, we reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. I hope you had a lot of fun. And again, thank you so much for joining me today. Cheers.   Greg Tipman  34:33 Thanks again for having us, Dan.   Nick Levac  34:35 Yes, thank you, Dan.   Dan Seguin  34:38 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening! And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.