ThinkEnergy

As demand for electricity increases, the need to diversify supply is also on the rise. In Episode 120 of thinkenergy, Lesley Gallinger, CEO of Ontario's Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), unpacks what’s driving the transformation of the province’s power system, the potential opportunities, and the obstacles standing in the way. From hydrogen innovation to resource procurement, listen in to learn how the IESO is helping Ontario navigate to a cleaner, reliable, and affordable energy future. Related links ●     Lesley Gallinger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-gallinger-784a194/ ●     Lesley Gallinger on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lmgallinger ●     IESO website: https://www.ieso.ca/ ●     Hydrogen Innovation Fund: https://www.ieso.ca/en/Get-Involved/Innovation/Hydrogen-Innovation-Fund/Overview ●     Powering Ontario’s Growth report: https://www.ontario.ca/page/powering-ontarios-growth To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod _________________________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT: Daniel Seguin: This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In 1902 electrical pioneers met for the first time in Berlin now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss wiring Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Ontario's electricity grid, like all grids around the world was designed as a one way street, to generate, transmit, and deliver electricity to customers. It's no secret that nowadays new technologies are shaking up the way we produce and use electricity. Back then, these pioneers likely couldn't have imagined that the electricity grid would become a two way interactive system capable of supporting variable supply from renewable energy or accommodating electric vehicles, energy storage, home generation, and a host of other innovations. As the demand for electricity grows, Ontario's supply is diversifying, evolving and transforming at a speed we haven't seen in this industry. One thing is for certain, it's going to be one electrifying ride. On today's show, we're diving into the heart of Ontario's power system and shining a light on the organization that manages the province electricity sector. As we mentioned before, we are at the forefront of a power revolution. Of course, we need someone driving the ship to provide guidance on how Ontario's power system adopts a cleaner and more interactive machine. So here's today's big question. What is driving the transformation of Ontario's power system? And what are the potential opportunities and challenges? Joining us today is Lesley Gallinger, president and chief executive officer of the Ontario Independent Electricity System Operator. Under her leadership, the IESO oversees the safe and reliable operation of Ontario's bulk electricity system, ensuring affordable electricity is available when and where people need it. Lesley, so great to have you join us today. Now, your knowledge and experience of the electricity industry is extensive. Can you talk to us a bit about what drew you to a career in energy sector? And what led you to your current role? Lesley Gallinger: Well, thank you for that, Dan. It's great to be here, and I have spent the majority of my career in the electricity sector after spending the first third in a different sector. I certainly benefited from working all across North America and in Europe, for some very sophisticated multinational organizations with very talented team members. However, I always had this interest in electricity. And just for a funny story, my first grade school in Ontario was Sir Adam Beck, so I wonder if that was a bit of foreshadowing. But in reality, I had friends and colleagues in the sector who spoke quite passionately about the impact they were making with the work they were doing. And I was attracted to that. And sure I had some skills that I thought would be transferable. And the role that I have now embodies all of that, as we at the IESO are helping inform and execute on energy policy on electricity policy, specifically that will support Ontarians as we transition to an electrified and decarbonized future. I honestly couldn't imagine a better role to be in at this moment. Daniel Seguin: At a high level Lesley, what is the Independent Electricity System Operator and what is it responsible for with respect to Ontario's power system? Lesley Gallinger: The IESO works at the heart of Ontario's electricity system, ensuring that electricity is available where and when it is needed. We monitor Ontario's demand in real time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, balancing supply and demand and directing the flow of electricity across the provinces transmission lines. We also oversee the electricity market, which includes putting mechanisms in place to increase competition and ensure cost effective supply. And finally, we also plan the electricity system by working with indigenous communities, with municipalities and stakeholders to forecast demand and secure enough supply to meet Ontario's needs as far as 20 years out. Daniel Seguin: Okay, very interesting. Finally, looking forward to your answer on this one here. Can you walk us through how you oversee and manage the electricity systems such as determining the type of supply required to meet demand for electricity in the province? In the short, medium, and long term? Lesley Gallinger: Yeah, thanks that that is a good and big meaty question. So we've spoken a lot about where we are now. So after having years of surplus electricity, Ontario is entering a period of growing electricity needs and demand is expected to increase by an average of 2% annually over the next two decades due to electrification and economic growth in various sectors, including residential, agricultural, and mining. One way that the IESO helps meet these growing needs is by securing new supply. In the short term, we have the annual capacity auction that we conduct that allows existing resources to compete. This is cost effective and allows the IESO to adapt to changing supply and demand conditions on a year by year basis. We also look at three to five year commitments for other resources, this timeframe provides more certainty while ensuring it doesn't get locked into commitments that no longer reflect those changing needs of electrification. And finally, in the long term, we look 20 years out to secure resources that require significant upfront investments in order to give suppliers the confidence they need to make those investments. So it's a bit of a layer cake with those three timeframes. Daniel Seguin: Great segway here. Okay. What do you see as the IESOs role in the future planning of the evolving electricity grid and your role in supporting the changing energy needs of the decarbonized economy? Lesley Gallinger: As Ontario's electricity system planner, we certainly have the long view. Our role is to ensure that Ontario's current and future energy needs are met both reliably and affordably. Our corporate strategy calls out three main ways in which we do this we ensure system reliability while supporting cost effectiveness, we're driving business transformation within the IESO and also driving and guiding the sector's future by working closely with indigenous communities, municipalities and stakeholders. On the decarbonisation front, our main role is to enable technologies that will help us decarbonize. There's lots of emerging energy resources that can help us build a zero emissions electricity grid and the IESO ensures that these resources can all participate in Ontario's electricity system and markets. We're procuring new resources under our flexible resource adequacy framework. We recently announced the procurement of over 800 megawatts of energy storage, which is the largest energy procurement energy storage procurement in Canada to date, that combined with 250 megawatts of the Oneida battery storage project, the IESO, with these projects, is taking steps to integrate this valuable and flexible resource. And in last December's publication of pathways to decarbonisation, we explored ways in which Ontario can move forward to an emissions-free electricity system. The Ministry of Energy consulted on our pathways report, and recently on July 10, very recently, announced a series of actions in its report powering Ontario's growth. And those actions include collaborating with Bruce Power and Ontario Power Generation on pre development work to to consider potential new nuclear generation reporting back on the design of our second long term procurement, which will acquire new non-emitting resources supporting a Ministry of Energy consultation on a post 2024 Conservation Demand Management Framework and assessing additional transmission needs to support new and growing generation and demand in the province. So quite a list of workforce ahead that we're very excited to undertake. And as our system operator for the province, we're certainly at the center of all of this. There'll be a continuing need for coordination with the broader electricity sector in order to plan an orderly transition to a decarbonize grid, there will also be an increased need to revisit how we plan the electricity system. The IESO is looking forward to working with the electrification and energy transition panel to identify ways to adapt and evolve existing frameworks in order to increase transparency and ensure communities and stakeholders are more aware of what we're doing and why. This work, the work of the EETP also takes a broader economy wide view, which reflects how the electricity sector is becoming increasingly dependent on other sectors like industry and transportation. So you know, in short, a lot of work and some very exciting work ahead. Daniel Seguin: Follow up question here for you. Now, some Ontarians are concerned about moving to variable renewable energy sources like wind and solar, while others are concerned about continuing use of natural gas. What have you uncovered in your work about these issues? And what would you like residents of Ontario to know? Lesley Gallinger: Yeah great question Dan, every type of generation has its own strengths and drawbacks based on its unique attributes, which is why Ontario maintains a diverse supply mix that can adapt to changing system conditions quickly. Renewables such as wind and solar are not emitting when they generate electricity, but they're also intermittent, meaning how much electricity they produce can change rapidly in response to weather conditions. And to help with this, the IESO is looking into hybrid facilities that combine renewables with energy storage. By 2026 we'll also have about 1300 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, which will help more efficiently integrate renewables. We're also going to start designing our second long term procurement which will focus on acquiring non-emitting resources and we'll be engaging on this with stakeholders and communities as we go. Natural gas, for example, has the main advantage that it can respond quickly to change in demand and system conditions, making it an important resource for us as we seek to maintain reliability. Ontario's demand fluctuates constantly throughout the day, and having access to natural gas can help us respond to sudden changes and maintain a balance across the system. It's also very important to recognize and something I'd like to emphasize for your listeners that overall emissions from Ontario's electricity sector are extremely low, the sector accounts for about 3% of the provinces total emissions. While this may increase slightly in the future, the continued existence of natural gas on the grid is an important resource to help us transition and it'll enable the near term electrification of other sectors which in total will drive down Ontario's emissions. Daniel Seguin: Okay Lesley, how will the efficiency upgrades at existing natural gas facilities contribute to meeting the growing demand? And what is the plan for these facilities as emerging technologies mature and the reliance on natural gas decreases? Lesley Gallinger: Yes, and as I mentioned in my earlier remarks, Ontario's definitely entering a period of increased demand and so with many existing contracts expiring, and nuclear plants undergoing refurbishment or scheduled to be decommissioned, coupled with increasing electrification of other sectors, the province is going to need more power in the immediate future and the natural gas expansions can help with this. In our pathways to decarbonisation report, we looked at the questions the minister posed to us, we looked at a moratorium scenario that would phase out natural gas over time as newer non-emitting resources come online, and in the report we concluded that we could be less reliant on natural gas in Ontario by the year 2035 and completely phased out by 2050. Efforts were made to align this report with clean electricity regulations, and that recognizes that the contribution of natural gas may be restricted over time, but for the meantime, we have you know, the important transitional resource needs, the natural gas fulfills. Daniel Seguin: Okay. In May of 2023, the IESO announced that it was moving forward with the largest procurement of energy storage in Canada. What can you tell us about these storage projects and their benefits? Lesley Gallinger: Yeah, this was a very exciting announcement for us the energy storage projects we announced in May were for grid connected battery storage systems, which will be an important step towards the transition to a non-emitting supply mix, and will support grid reliability. The procurement was the culmination of the work we've done over the last several years to understand the potential of battery storage to provide supply and reliability services to the grid. The biggest advantage of energy storage is that it can charge during off peak hours when the provincial electricity demand is low and then inject energy back into the grid during peaks when demand is high, which makes it very flexible and a resource that can help us optimize the efficiency of other resource types. And we also see battery storage as a key enabler of decarbonisation. It will help us to integrate more renewables such as wind and solar onto the system, but also get more out of our current nuclear and hydro fleet. By charging during these off peak hours energy storage can use up any surplus green power from Ontario's existing nuclear and hydro facilities. Daniel Seguin: Now, how does this procurement help ensure system reliability during nuclear refurbishment and support the overall energy transformation in Ontario, Lesley Gallinger: The procurement will help with the transition away from natural gas and it's certainly about maintaining reliability at a time when multiple refurbishments are underway. In particular, the Pickering generating station is scheduled to go out of service mid decade and so right around that time, those energy storage projects are expected to be online. Certainly the timelines of the procurements were aligned understanding what the system conditions would be at that time, Lesley, I'd like to dig into your fascinating pathway to decarbonisation report just a bit. Ontario has one of the cleanest electricity system in North America, contributing only 3% to the provinces greenhouse gas emissions, that doesn't sound like a lot. So why is it important to eliminate the remaining 3% of emissions from the grid? Yeah, another another really interesting question and the subject of a lot of conversations we've been having we know that electricity use is going to increase in the coming years driven by an economic growth and electrification across other sectors. Transportation is becoming increasingly electrified as our industrial processes such as steel smelting, and as the pace of electrification speeds up the efforts and investments being made by businesses and households to electrify will increase society's reliance on electricity as a fuel and electricity is only as clean as the resources we use to make it. So that 3%, if we don't tackle that remaining 3%, we will see an increased reliance on less clean generating sources. I mean tackling climate change is certainly an economy wide effort and clean electricity is a fundamental enabler of those climate change solutions. Daniel Seguin: Thanks for that, Lesley. Now, I have a follow up question for you. The IESO presents two scenarios to address decarbonisation, what are they and what key assumptions and drivers were discovered with your analysis? Lesley Gallinger: So our first scenario was the moratorium scenario where the IESO so looked at restricting the procurement of additional natural gas. And this assessment showed that a moratorium would be feasible beginning in 2027, and that Ontario could be less reliant on natural gas by 2035. At that point, the system would not require additional emitting generation to ensure reliability provided that other forms of non-emitting supply could be added to the system in time to keep pace with demand growth. The second scenario is our pathways to decarbonisation scenario, this scenario assumed aggressive electrification of the transportation and industrial sectors, and that attaining a completely decarbonized grid would be possible by 2050, while balancing reliability and costs, so you can see a lot of variables came to play in that second scenario. Daniel Seguin: Perfect. Thanks, Lesley. Now, what are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 and 2050 targets?  Lesley Gallinger: Yeah, I think that's, you know, that's what we're all looking towards and bridging the work of today with the needs of a futurized decarbonized world will be challenging and complex, a collaborative approach across all sectors of the economy will certainly be necessary to achieve this. From Ontario's perspective, we're in a strong starting position, our electricity system is already close to 90% emissions free, most of the generation coming from Hydro and Nuclear resources. And in our pathways report, we identify that for Ontario, at least, a moratorium on natural gas could be possible by 2035, and a fully decarbonized electricity system by 2050 provided that new non-emitting supplies and surfaces online. So we certainly had those goals in mind for Ontario as we created that pathway so decarbonisation work. Daniel Seguin: Now Lesley, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges facing the electricity industry in Canada today? And what are the biggest opportunities? Lesley Gallinger: Yeah, I anchor on the word orderly because I've used it a lot. The biggest challenge I see is managing the significant transformation that's underway. And doing it in an orderly fashion, electrification is requiring the electricity system to expand and produce more power, while decarbonisation puts pressure on the grid to rely more heavily on low carbon resources, many of which are still in their early days of development. Across the country. Every province is faced with similar challenges. The recently formed Canadian Electricity Advisory Council will provide advice to the Minister of natural resources on ways to accelerate investment and promote sustainable, affordable, reliable electricity systems. And I have the privilege of being on this panel. It's exciting work with colleagues from across the country, many of whom come from provinces in very different stages of decarbonisation. We're sharing best practices and all working towards similar goals. For Ontario, we're entering a period of emerging electricity system needs starting in the 2020s. These electricity and energy capacity needs will continue through to 2040. So demand is expected to increase at nearly 2% per year as I mentioned earlier. All of this presents incredible opportunities for Ontario's communities, new technologies are creating economic growth opportunities and setting the stage for Ontario to build a highly skilled workforce to push to decarbonize will have significant impacts on economy wide emissions reductions, and building the electricity grid of the future also presents opportunities to collaborate and strengthen relationships with indigenous communities and municipalities. Back to my first comment, the pace of this change is a vital consideration. We need to strike the right balance between decarbonizing the grid, while it's still ensuring electricity and energy remain reliable and affordable. If we go too fast, the cost may impede electrification, if we go too slow, we're not going to have the supply available as demand increases. So it really is about thinking this through orderly and it's an all hands on deck challenge. Daniel Seguin: Okay, moving along here, maybe you could walk us through some of the scope for what's required to decarbonize Ontario's electricity system. What does an achievable pathway to net zero look like? Lesley Gallinger: Yeah, that's the work of the IESO on a regular basis. I mean, I can't underscore my last point enough, which is that it's vital that the transition occurs in an orderly manner, we absolutely need to act but we need to act in a carefully managed way that balances decarbonisation with reliability and affordability. Large infrastructure such as hydroelectric plants and nuclear facilities and transmission lines can take 15-10 years, sometimes more to build, significant investments in capital and materials and labor will be required to build out a fully decarbonized system. And one study I read estimated that 14,000 strong labor force participants, that are that are currently working on our electricity infrastructure would need to increase by a factor of six. So you know, that's a huge investment in training and getting people ready to build all the things we need to build. Indigenous communities and municipalities also have a voice in how and where new infrastructure is located. So meaningful and transparent discussions about siting and land use will be needed. And while many technologies will be needed to decarbonize the grid already known, some are not known and not commercialized yet. And so those are low carbon fuels small modular reactors still in development. At this point, it'll be important for Ontario and for Canada to continue to invest in these and other other innovations as well in supporting the pathway. We need energy plans to be approved and new infrastructure needs to be planned, permitted and cited. Regulatory and approval processes such as the environmental impact assessments need to be resourced, appropriately and streamlined to enable all of these builds to happen. We also need the supporting transmission infrastructure to be planned and built on on similar timelines as demand growth and as new supply comes online and underlying all of that we need to carefully manage the costs to ensure the actual impact on total energy costs is affordable, and that they do not diverge significantly, Ontario from those of our neighbors in Manitoba and Quebec and in the US. So lots of again, lots of facets, but work that can be itemized now and definitely plan forward. Daniel Seguin: Cool. What are some of IESO's, no regret actions that can be taken to help meet those growing demands? Lesley Gallinger: Yeah, I think the minister anchored on some of those in his Powering Ontario's Growth report, Ontario can certainly continue to acquire new non-emitting resources and incentivize energy efficiency through our Save on Energy programs. sector partners can also begin planning and citing for new potential projects, partnerships between municipal, provincial and federal governments will also be key and we need to continue to develop those relationships now, while we're also revisiting the regulatory frameworks that may hinder and prevent progress. Last but certainly not least, we must track our progress in an open and transparent way. There's no one way we can say decarbonisation happens. It's a gradual change that will take place over many years, and will require lots of little steps to make progress. And certainly the government's recent response to our reports puts in motion some of those actions including asking us at the IESO to explore opportunities to enable future generation in northern Ontario and reducing the reliance on natural gas generation in the GTA. The ministry has also asked the IESO to begin consultations on a competitive transmitter selection framework for future lines with electricity supply expected to continue to grow over the next 20 to 30 years, you know, that's what we're doing now, you know, in terms of planning, but we're also we're also working to secure new capacity and leveraging our existing assets. So that is through our very thorough resource adequacy framework, which was put in place that outlines our strategy to get that new supply in the short, medium and long term. A key piece of this is competitive procurements and the processes that have been used to date including the annual capacity auction, and but you know, there's also work being done that we're leveraging by our energy efficiency and demand response programs that that get back to what individuals and what individual businesses can do to support decarbonisation. We've got market renewal going on. We've got medium and long term procurements. So lots of action underway. All of them no regret that can that can be continued to to meet this demand.  Daniel Seguin: Now Lesley, with electricity supply expected to grow the next 20 to 30 years, what is the IESO doing to secure new capacity? And how is it leveraging existing assets? Lesley Gallinger: Yeah, great question. So in terms of generating new supply or acquiring new supply, that's really our resource adequacy framework. It outlines, you know, the work we're doing both in the short, medium and long term to competitively procure new resources. We've recently done the procurements for batteries and for natural gas, upgrades and expansions. We'll be launching our next procurement very shortly and designing the one after that. So it's that layer cake approach that I mentioned. We've also, you know, can can anchor back in the strides we've taken in the current procurements to secure we've had great resources come to bear and participate in those procurements, so we're very hopeful that future procurements will also be very successful Daniel Seguin: Now hoping you can help demystify this next one for our listeners. What is the Hydrogen Energy fund? What is special about hydrogen, and how do you think it will support Ontario's reliability needs and decarbonisation? Lesley Gallinger: Yeah, it is, it is a new word and a new way of thinking for for a lot of folks. So let me dig into that. But the goal of our hydrogen Innovation Fund is to investigate, evaluate and demonstrate how low carbon hydrogen technologies could be integrated into the grid. The new program will enable the IESO to test the ability of hydrogen to support grid reliability and affordability, but also the role it can play in broader decarbonisation. Hydrogen has the potential to reduce electricity sector emissions, but it could also be used as a replacement fuel in other more fossil fuel intensive industries such as transportation.  From the electricity sector's perspective, hydrogen has the potential to provide several essential services, it can smooth the output from renewable resources such as wind and solar, it can be blended into natural gas to reduce total emissions and could be used to offer several services such as peaking generation, grid efficiency and storage. But all that being said, it's not an ultimate solution. While hydrogen can be used to generate electricity producing it also requires electricity. So the integration of hydrogen like all new resources will require a balanced approach, one that can make more efficient use of our existing electricity system assets which the Hydrogen Innovation Fund will help with the interest in the fund has been very high. The IESO has received more than 25 applications. The projects are in flight now are undergoing review right now. And we should be in a position to announce the successful projects in September. Daniel Seguin: Lesley. Let's now look globally, what are other countries doing right, that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?  Lesley Gallinger: Yeah, I think I think this is, you know, very important. We very much focused on on Canada or in you know, in our case, Ontario for answers. And the IESO is just one of many electricity system operators worldwide. And I certainly am always keeping an eye on what other countries are doing. However, every jurisdiction has unique circumstances, which include laws, regulations, geography and politics that can sometimes make comparisons difficult. In North America, specifically, Ontario is a leader in many ways and the pathways report is a very well thought out approach. And so I think that's an area of interests that others have looked to us, that, coupled with our experience of phasing out coal fired generation, we're in a good position really to set examples for other jurisdictions looking to do similar work, and certainly in conversations with my IESO counterparts around North America, we're having robust discussions and learning from each other.  Daniel Seguin: Well, looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach, what is giving you hope? Lesley Gallinger: Well, electricity is being looked at to support decarbonisation of other sectors and to support economic growth. That's hugely exciting to see the broad impact our industry is having on society. And as we engage with broader audience, the collaborative spirit across the sector, across the province and across the country, we're seeing... certainly gives me hope that Ontario can achieve decarbonisation through an orderly transition that balances that decarbonisation desire with reliability and affordability that are at the heart of our mandate.  Daniel Seguin: Lastly, Lesley, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?  Lesley Gallinger: I'm ready. These were some of the more difficult questions, Dan. So I'm certainly ready for these.  Daniel Seguin: Okay. What are you reading right now?  Lesley Gallinger: So I just finished reading a really great book, how big things get done by bent flyvbjerg. And I think it's making the rounds really good book on large projects, and what we can learn from past failures in large projects, which will be important information for Ontario.  Daniel Seguin: Cool. Thanks for sharing. Now, what would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?  Lesley Gallinger: Well, I have a very, very small boat, and I have yet to name it. But now now that you've got me thinking about that the wheels are turning. At the moment, it's new, so I'm just learning to park it. And when I say park, my my partner rolls his eyes and says "you mean dock" and I say no, Park. So next time we speak Dan, I'll have a name for the boat.  Daniel Seguin: Very good. Who is someone that you truly admire?  Lesley Gallinger: I think this was the most difficult question. There are people I admire in many aspects of my life. And I certainly wouldn't want to single out anyone or miss out on another person. But if I can be a bit general, given the role I'm in, I'd have to say it's the people who have the vision and foresight to see what's coming in the future and to plan and build those large projects and large infrastructure investments needed to get there.  Daniel Seguin: What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed? Lesley Gallinger: Well, I am a lover of being outdoors, so perhaps for me it would be on the morning after a deep snowfall on the trails around my friend's property being the first snow shoes out on the trails on a Sunday morning. It's so quiet and so beautiful and it just feels magical.  Daniel Seguin: Now what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began? Lesley Gallinger: I think for me, it would be helping my mom stay connected to to our community as as an elderly widow in her own home. It was a lot of one on one contact for me with her and making sure that I could connect her to a broader social network. So she didn't feel so isolated. And I think that was, you know, well worth the challenge. But it was a it was a challenge.  Daniel Seguin: Okay. We've all been watching just a little bit more TV or even Netflix lately. What is your favorite show?  Lesley Gallinger: So I spend very little time watching TV and when I do or, or Netflix, and when I do, it's mostly documentaries. I want to give a call out for a course I'm taking right now online, which is the closest thing to TV, I'm taking the University of Alberta's indigenous Canada course, which has been for me tremendous value in helping me understand indigenous worldviews and perspectives. But I did just watch a Netflix series on the Tour de France, which was a fascinating look at the teams and tactics as well as the effort that the athletes endure over that 21 days.  Daniel Seguin: Okay, cool. Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?  Lesley Gallinger: Oh, my goodness. My teams have heard me use this before everything everywhere all at once. We have an opportunity as an industry right now to guide generational change and to have an impact on the environment and the economy far past our working lives. And that is incredibly exciting.  Daniel Seguin: Well, Lesley, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?  Lesley Gallinger: Thank you. Yes. www.ieso.ca. Our website has a wealth of resources to help listeners become more energy literate. And to understand the work we do. And you can find me on LinkedIn at Lesley Gallinger.  Daniel Seguin: Again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.  Lesley Gallinger: I did! The questions were tough, but very interesting and they certainly got to the heart of the work that we do at the IESO. Thank you, Dan, for for your interest in our work and for asking those questions that allow me to speak and highlight the work of the incredible professionals that work at the IESO. Daniel Seguin: Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guest or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

As Canadians depend more and more on an electrified grid, safety and reliability are at the core of the conversation. How are we improving the grid’s resilience to climate change and extreme weather? How are we accommodating increased capacity as more people electrify their lives? In episode 99 of thinkenergy, we discuss future proofing the grid and what exactly that means with Guillaume Paradis, Chief Electricity Distribution Officer at Hydro Ottawa. Related links Guillaume Paradis, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721/ Power outage safety: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/outage-centre/outage-safety Energy saving resources: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod ________________________________________________________________________________ Transcript: Dan Seguin 00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.  Dan Seguin 00:28 Hey, everyone, welcome back. There's a great analogy I read recently that compared future proofing the electricity grid to Wayne Gretzky. And since this is our 99th episode, woohoo, it just seems fitting that we make our reference to the great one. What made Wayne Gretzky, the greatest hockey player of all time, was not his speed or the uncanny accuracy of his shots, but rather his ability to predict where the puck was going to be an instant before it arrived. utilities like Wayne Gretzky have the ability to anticipate events and predict patterns that can make them more prepared for extreme weather events as a utility, planning and predicting the future is part of our DNA. And as we all prepare to meet greenhouse gas reduction targets set by the feds, provincial and municipal governments, we are seeing a lot of future planning happening to make the electricity system as clean and as resilient as possible. And part of that is predicting what the future will look like, from what energy sources will power our electricity supply, but also what kind of challenges like electrification and threats like extreme weather we will face? So here's today's big question. How can utilities earn customer confidence as they transition towards an electrified grid that can also withstand unpredictable weather to safely and reliably deliver energy. Today's guest is Guillaume packaging. As the chief electricity distribution officer at hydro Ottawa, Guillaume is responsible for planning, design, operations, constructions and maintenance of our nation's capitol electrical power distribution system. In his role, Guillaume leads a team directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient and reliable delivery of electricity to hydro Ottawa customers. Guillaume has over a decade of industry experience in progressive leadership roles ranging from research program management, to distribution planning, asset management, design, and construction. Thanks for joining us on the show  today. Guillaume Paradis 02:56 Thanks for having me. Dan Seguin 02:57 You've been in the industry for more than a decade now, what's been the biggest change or shift you've witnessed? Guillaume Paradis 03:05 So what I'd say has been the most significant change over that time period is that we've actually gone from talking about very exciting things and future focus opportunities. So we've gone from talking about them to actually getting to implement them. So some of the things that were on the horizon 10 years ago, and 15 years ago, in fact, were related to electric vehicles, the proliferation of battery storage technology, the development of the smart grid, and over that period of time, through those conversations, we've actually been able to shift the industry to a place where we're actually delivering on some of those promises. So that's very, very exciting. It's a massive challenge for everyone involved, but unlocks a whole series of possibilities, that when I started my career, we were only talking and thinking about, Dan Seguin 04:08 Okay, what does future proofing the electricity grid really mean? What kind of plans and predictions are you making to help the grid withstand climate change? Guillaume Paradis 04:20 So future proofing is an interesting one, because, you know, ultimately, all of your success depends on your ability to forecast and forecasting. Currently, with the changing landscape with the pace at which policy is being updated, refreshed, and modified, it is quite challenging. So we've gone from an environment where you could look at decade's worth of data, use a little bit of economic information, and forecasts and combine those things into what would turn out to be a pretty useful and fairly accurate prediction of what your system would be required to deliver. So we've gone from that to an environment where in a matter of, you know, sometimes months, you know, the underlying basis for your predictions as totally been changed. And you have, or you're having to revisit your assumptions from, frankly, a quarter to the next. So, future proofing right now, in my mind is about, you know, keeping an eye out for what's coming. So being able to anticipate what's ahead, being able to stay abreast of all the trends, making, what I would call incremental adjustments to our practices today that ensure that if, and when the future, you know, more specifically crystallizes, we can take advantage of the opportunities, and we're not having to redo too much work, but also without betting too much on one outcome, where we may not have the certainty of what's ahead. So, you know, that's true when you look at the full landscape. And specifically, when we're looking at the predictions around climate change, it's about at a minimum, being very responsive to the more recent events. So using that to update your predictions. And recently, unfortunately, with respect to climate, you know, we've seen what would have been deemed, you know, one in 1000, or one in 100 year events occur at a frequency that far exceeds, you know, what predictions would have called for. And we have to recognize that as being the new trend, despite not having the benefit of 100 years of events in that new paradigm that we find ourselves in. So, you know, from a climate standpoint, I think we have to be a little farther out, and expect that recent data points actually represent the new reality, as opposed to relying on the longer trend that we would like to count on, which is 50-100 years or beyond. So from a climate standpoint, at this point, our assumption is, you know, what's happened recently looks a lot more like what's expected to happen to us in the next few years. And in fact, you know, we're looking to build a little bit of contingency or buffer into our predictions, assuming that it might get a little worse. Dan Seguin 07:40 Now, why does future proofing the grid go hand in hand with electrification, and clean energy, Guillaume Paradis 07:48 So electrification and clean energy come down to, in my view, increasing our society's resilience, resilience and dependence on our electricity infrastructure. So, you know, for many years now, many decades, the electricity system has been the underpinning of our modern society. But even more so as we move more of our energy use to the electricity system, it becomes paramount ensure that the infrastructure we have is able to support and maintain with a high level of redundancy, you know, that modern lifestyle where more of what we do is electrified, clean energy, in its various forms, you know, supports our ability to electrify more of our activities, but also from a planning standpoint introduces a bit of a new challenge, in terms of intermittency. And so our ability to have an underlying asset base distribution system or transmission system that is highly redundant and highly secure, to enable and support the use of renewable energy is critical. And so that's where future proofing is really about, you know, ensuring that the bet we're making as a society, which is electrifying to improve the outlook on our climate change objectives, is actually possible going forward. Dan Seguin 09:29 Don't I've got a follow up question here. What does a self healing grid mean? Guillaume Paradis 09:35 You know, in a nutshell, self healing is about leveraging technology and automation to ensure that when an issue occurs, whether it be a failure, or an externality, like a tree, you know, impacting our infrastructure. We use that technology that automation to most rapidly re structure and rearrange our distribution system to minimize the impact of those events. So it's really about leveraging automation, you know, rapid communication, we now have access to using the computational power that is also available to us. And letting those tools make the preliminary decision on how best to restore power, before there's a human interaction that comes in to take care of the final steps. So really, if you think about it, and how far we've come in the last 20 years with computer power and communication tools, it's really bringing the latest and the best of those technologies to bear on how we restore power to our customers. Dan Seguin 10:45 After the May Dereocho, a lot of people were asking why utilities don't bury all overhead lines? What's your answer to that Gil? Guillaume Paradis 10:55 So yeah, it comes up every time there's a storm, and it's, it's perfectly understandable. And I think there's a couple things that come into play when we think about, you know, what is best to deliver power to our customers. Certainly, you know, we've been talking about redundancy in an underground system, when it comes to certain types of climate related events, like large storms, or wind storms, you know, introduce a certain level of security that exceeds what is possible with an overhead system. But the other very important element as we think about electrification going forward, is the element of cost, and affordability of power. And, you know, just from a comparison standpoint, the basic math, you know, when evaluating underground alternatives to overhead systems, is about a 10 to one cost ratio. So certainly when we look at, you know, where best to invest dollars, and how best to bring power to communities, that cost component is factored in and becomes a consideration, particularly when you look at lower density areas, or farther away areas from production centers, it becomes a costly proposition. Now, what we're looking to do going forward is we see undergrounding as a strategic tool in improving our climate resilience. And so we're going to look at certain corridors, perhaps, or certain targeted investments to underground infrastructure, to try to get the most value possible for our customers as we plan for, you know, an elevated climate challenge in the future. But that consideration around costs is significant. And finally, what I'd say as well is, you know, your ability to restore power when there's a problem with overhead infrastructure is far greater than it is when an underground system fails. And so in addition to that cost component, the ability to restore power quickly, when there is a problem is higher with an overhead infrastructure. Dan Seguin 13:10 At the beginning of the last century, it was the Industrial Revolution. This century is shaping up to be an electrical revolution. How confident are you about the grid's capacity, as more and more people electrify their cars, and eventually, their homes? Guillaume Paradis 13:32 So how confident I would say very confident. And that's not to minimize the scale of the challenge ahead of us. You're correct, we're now proposing to essentially, you know, completely shift the dynamics around electricity. In a matter of, you know, I would like to say decades, but it's essentially a decade at this point. And so it's a very complex challenge from an engineering standpoint and a planning standpoint. But I've seen how the conversation and the thinking has evolved over the last 1015 years in our industry, I've seen the technologies that are being brought forward as tools to be leveraged to enable that transition to a more electric future. And, you know, the significant load growth, I will come with that. So I think we have the tools, we need to maintain a high level of awareness and adaptability in, you know, facing what's ahead of us. We can't fall back on old habits or, you know, make excuses when we have solutions we want to implement and we know we need to implement to enable that electrified future, but I think We will get there. And I've seen all sorts of signs pointing to that possibility. And it's going to come down to once again making the most of all the tools we have. So we talked about technology earlier, we're going to have to leverage technology to manage how electric vehicles are charged, and when, and in what parts of the city and how best to leverage the existing infrastructure to do that, because we know, we can just build or double the size of our electric infrastructure to accommodate that growth. So we're going to have to be more refined, we're going to have to leverage all the tools available to us, including distributed energy resources, but I think we will get there and I like what I'm seeing from all the stakeholders across the industry, and thinking and adapting to that new reality. Dan Seguin 15:50 Here's another follow up question. What would you say to those who are worried about reliability and power outages? Guillaume Paradis 15:59 I would say that's our main focus. And so it's completely normal to have some concerns in a context where more of our lives become dependent on the electricity system. And but, you know, on our end, from an electricity industry standpoint, reliability has been forever, essentially, you know, the focus of our energy and our attention. And now we all understand that, we need to elevate the reliability standards that have been developed over the last decades. And so we have, once again, certain tools we can leverage to do that. So again, not to say it's not significant, we have to go from, you know, what has been a 99.998% availability to something even closer to 100%. Because we know our customers depend on our infrastructure more than ever. But we're working on that. And we're going to bring in some tools that will help us support that outcome. And certainly, you know, we talked about automation, but things like battery storage, becoming more prevalent, you know, within the landscape, including the batteries of electric vehicles, over time, will be one of those examples of new tools that we can try to leverage to deliver, deliver that elevated level of reliability that our customers will expect in our society will need. Dan Seguin 17:33 Okay, thanks. Yeah, there will be power outages, we can't avoid that. Knowing that, what are some of the things customers could or should consider doing to be better prepared? Guillaume Paradis 17:46 Yeah. So that's another interesting question with respect to what we've seen in the last few years. So even just through some of the climate related events that we've experienced, you know, longer duration outages related to tornadoes are due to Russia more recently, one of the basic things that everyone is encouraged to do and we try to promote is, you know, developing a plan for the household, right, or for, you know, your business if you're a commercial customer, but think about what things look like, from your perspective. In the event of an outage of various durations that like, you know, the basic exercise would be to think about something of short duration, say two hours of less or less than looking at something a bit more prolonged like six hours, and then going to the next step of saying, what happens if it's more than 24 hours. And you know, if you go to our website, and the website of, you know, many of our peer utilities, most offer a set of resources around how to build a toolkit to be able to remain safe and function through certain duration outages. And then, of course, if you want to go beyond that for certain critical customers, and that conversation is ongoing, and everyone's minds already been turned to that, but looking at other alternatives, like on site generation, energy storage, generators, of course, being the traditional option, but looking to secure some critical processes with on site generation where possible. So building resilience is something that we've worked on, you know, for decades, through our infrastructure investments, of course, but working with customers, and more so than ever again, as we electrify many more aspects of our lives. We need to ensure that everyone appreciates and recognizes what may be required if power was to for hopefully a very short amount of time not be available. Dan Seguin 20:03 Now, what kind of planning and predictions are you making for the short, mid and long term when it comes to electrification? Guillaume Paradis 20:13 So the short term is probably the most interesting element now, because it's been a little difficult to figure out exactly when things would land. So what we're seeing today, and that's ongoing now, is that, you know, certainly many customers are actively looking at reducing their impact in terms of carbon footprint. And they're looking at doing that through electrification. And so we're seeing a lot of activity where customers choose to switch to fuel, which would be essentially moving away from using carbon intensive energy resources for things like heating, and then leveraging our infrastructure to support that. So when that happens at a campus level, or for commercial customers, that can be a significant growth in the demand on the electricity system. So we're fairly able to project what that looks like. And it's been happening at a good pace. On the electric vehicle adoption side of things we've been monitoring for over a decade now, we've been, you know, doing some modeling, some predictions, we've worked with, you know, external stakeholders to put together studies that would help us understand the impact. The thing that has been challenging, certainly over the last two years is that there's now a clear gap between the market demand with or for electric vehicles, and what manufacturers and the supply chains are able to make available to that market. So figuring out the exact timing has become a little more challenging, where we would have expected to see, you know, a very steady growth, but a significant growth that would eventually turn into sort of a complete shift to electric vehicle purchases. Whereas it's taking a bit longer, I think, to occur than we would have, frankly, hoped for, but also expected, it's getting, it's gotten us or given us a bit more time as supposed to plan for it. But certainly from an electrification standpoint, and the predictions that we're making, we're seeing electric vehicles being sort of pervasive across our distribution system. It'll occur over a certain number of years, but we will have electric vehicle charging occur all over service territory. And certainly from a fleet standpoint, once again, as soon as some of the manufacturers manage to ramp up their capacity to produce vehicles, we're expecting to see more and more fleet operators move their entire operation to electric vehicles. And so we're preparing for that as well. Dan Seguin 22:58 Now, Guillaume, tell me, what keeps you up at night, then, talk to me about what gives you hope. Guillaume Paradis 23:06 So what still keeps me up at night. And I think that's just a virtue of the environment. And the industry that we're in is the safety of our team. And, frankly, anyone who interacts with our infrastructures, so that that's something that we easily forget in our society, considering how, you know, ubiquitous energy electricity is, it's just the sheer power that that electricity represents, and how close in proximity it comes to many people, certainly our workforce, you know, physically interacts with that infrastructure every day. And so ensuring that we remain safe at all times is critical. But it's the same for our customers and anyone who comes close to the electricity infrastructure. And so that's, that's first and foremost, I think it's just, you know, a reality of what we do, distributing electricity. But certainly just the general pace of change is interesting, I wouldn't say it keeps me up at night, because I'm worried it keeps me up at night because it's exciting. And there's so much possibilities that come with what's ahead to a degree that we've frankly, never seen in our industry. And so it's just a completely exciting time to be part of the electricity industry. We just got to make sure that we do everything we can to leverage what's coming for the benefit of our customers and to power our community. But you know, there are much worse things to be kept up at night by and I think it's just a lot of energy. Literally, I suppose, coming to all of us, you know around the organization in the industry. Well, hope is So we have, you know, so many bright colleagues, so many people looking at what's, you know, ahead and what's upon us, that we're uniquely positioned to help, you know, our, all societies across the globe, deliver on, you know, what is, you know, the generational challenge of climate change. So we're, you know, it's, it's not often that you're part of an industry that can have such a significant impact on such a large problem. And so to be right in the middle of it, and having a key role in enabling the aspiration of our entire society, is really exciting. And, you know, having the chance to take tangible and real concrete actions to get us all there is fantastic. So the hope comes from the energy of everyone involved, and the talent of everyone in Walt involved, and the passion that they bring to solving this massive, massive challenge that we have ahead of us. Dan Seguin 26:12 Moving on here, what role does hydro Ottawa or utilities in general have when it comes to delivering solutions to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Guillaume Paradis 26:22 So that the, I think the unique perspective that we bring, so certainly, electrifying period, right, so we're, we're, you know, an alternative to dirtier sources, particularly here in Ontario, where we can still count on an electricity system that is very significantly, you know, supplied by renewable energy resources. So we're sort of a platform for greenhouse gas reduction, just by virtue of electrification. So that is a significant role. And even more importantly, we also have, you know, an opportunity to be direct partners with industries, stakeholders, businesses, commercial actors, who are actually trying to reduce their greenhouse gases, footprint and impact. And so we're, we're part of the conversation and what we do differently than other businesses is, we think and plan in decades, and, you know, in Windows of 25, and 50 years, and so we've been here 100 years, we're expecting to be here, you know, many 100 more. And so we have that long term perspective that we can bring to the table, when engaging with other stakeholders who maybe think more on a sort of business case level in terms of three and five year paybacks, we're actually able to bring in that long term perspective to inform their decision making. So it's pretty unique, frankly, and, and we're also in many, many cases, in a position where we're trusted advisors. So there has been that trust built over decades of being reliable and available. And so we're seen as or as almost impartial in the process of electrifying and reducing greenhouse gases. And so again, we can bring that perspective to bear when supporting our customers and making those decisions and enabling those objectives of more sustainable activities. Dan Seguin 28:43 Sorry about this Guillaume, but I've got a follow up question, what are some of the initiatives that hydro Auto is doing to help customers in this area? Guillaume Paradis 28:51 So we have essentially the full inventory of initiatives. So from a customer standpoint, we work with them at the facility level, we have, you know, our key account representatives, we're sort of their energy advisors on demand. And so, you know, that is a direct line between customers and all the portfolios and all the options that are available in the industry. So that's, that's big, because it's, it's almost working with them from the inception of their plans to try to bring them to, you know, that future of a lower carbon footprint. And so, you know, we're very active in that space. You know, from an energy standpoint and an energy system standpoint, we see our responsibility as being the local enabler of local renewable energy resources, and a more efficient use of energy, you know, in our community and in the communities that we serve. And so we're working with industry stakeholders, particularly regulatory agencies, and better informing their approach to enabling those resources to make sure that when customers approach us with their solar generation project, or with their battery storage project, we find the best way to make that investment work for them financially, but also for our community from a greenhouse gas standpoint. And so we have a very important role in sort of acting as an interface between, you know, our constituents, and the regulatory agencies that govern what we do. And that's fundamental to making that green future possible. Because we're essentially, you know, ending an entire regulatory framework, and an entire industry paradigm on the fly, as people make those decisions, to invest differently. And so that advisor role is critical, that advocacy role is critical. And you know, more specifically, we have a wide variety of programs, all available in great detail on our website, to help customers think through the decisions that they're making with respect to energy. Dan Seguin 31:21 Now, what are your thoughts on distributed energy resources, what kind of challenges or opportunities do they pose? Guillaume Paradis 31:32 Not only a great opportunity, but a necessary piece of that puzzle coming together with respect to electrifying and proceeding with that energy transition that we've all embarked on. And that going forward with the combination of a growing demand for electricity, and some of the challenges brought about by climate change, will need to be able to leverage energy resources closer to where the demand actually exists. And distributed energy resources are sort of the elementary building blocks that will allow us to do that where by having a generation closer to our customers within our community here in Ottawa, for example, and in Castleman, we'll be able to ensure that we're not reliant on power coming from, you know, hundreds of kilometers away somewhere across the province. And that under more scenarios, contingency or otherwise, we're able to leverage what's here to ensure that our customers stay power through whatever may come and so the D ers bolt in meeting capacity requirements going forward and meeting resilience expectations will be essential. And so once again, they in terms of scaling up to, you know, many 1000s within Ottawa, Ottawa, they represent a pretty significant engineering challenge in rethinking our control systems, our, you know, engineering decisions, but they're a necessary and important building block, and therefore much larger of an opportunity than they are a threat. And we just need to spend the next few years continuing to evolve our ability to leverage those in real time to meet our future objectives. Dan Seguin 33:30 Okay, yeah, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got a few for you. Are you ready? Guillaume Paradis 33:38 Okay,we'll give it a shot. Dan Seguin 33:40 Okay. What are you reading right now? Guillaume Paradis 33:43 So, I'm not sure if the timing of this conversation will matter. But certainly leading up to Remembrance Day, I sort of tend to go back to at least one book, you know, related to war, and the impacts of war. And so I've gotten back into reading August by Barbara Tuchman. So that's sort of one of my favorite books about the start of the First World War. Just very well written. And every time I go back to it, I'm just inspired by the quality of the storytelling, but I have this bad habit of reading multiple books at the same time, which typically takes me forever to get through them. I've started Dawn of everything or the dawn of everything, which is a complicated but very interesting reevaluation of how modern enlightenment thinking has evolved in Europe through the influence of some of the North American First Nations. It is a very interesting topic there. And also reading An old classic and letters from a stoic by Seneca when I managed to not fall asleep at 1230 Each night, but those are the three books that are on my night table right now.  Dan Seguin 35:16 Now, what would you name your boat? If you have one? Or maybe do you have one? Guillaume Paradis 35:22 I do not. And I would let my kids name it. And so I expect it would be called something related to Paw Patrol, or the latest show that they're on these days. But I would certainly not shoulder that responsibility. And I would ask my kids to decide what the name should be, Dan Seguin 35:47 Who is someone that you admire, Guillaume? Guillaume Paradis 35:50 I'm going to stay on the same theme with that one. And I think I have to say, I admire my wife. And I do because I get to watch her in action every single day. And I see how she tackles problems. And she multitasks and makes problems go away that I couldn't quite wrap my head around. And so the relentless energy or determination that she applies to everything she does, is really a big inspiration for me. So, you know, surely there are others, you know, in our history or otherwise, that could be inspirations, but no one resonates in my life, quite to the degree that my wife does. Dan Seguin 36:35 Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed? Guillaume Paradis 36:42 Fair, that's, that's a tricky one. I think, not the engineering type talking about science here. But I think just there's two extremes that are either dead technologies that we've managed to develop. And one of the ones I think of occasionally, is them, computers and the chips and the microprocessors we've been to develop, able to develop and just the sheer scale, and the complexity that we've been able to create there. Otherwise, things like CRISPR, for genetic splicing, I just still can't quite wrap my head around how that's possible. But we're able to do things with DNA now that are just, you know, stuff of science fiction 20 years ago, anything to do with space exploration, and deploying, you know, telescopes in space or launching probes to Mars, I still don't understand how we managed to do that, without something failing more often than it does. And otherwise, the other extreme, I would say is, is just nature, right. And that's exactly what we're all working on today, across the globe, is recognizing that what we have, you know, around us, our planet is just beyond amazing, and, you know, almost incomprehensible in complexity. And we have a responsibility to take care of that. But I think, you know, whenever we have, I have the chance of stepping out of the city and just looking around at nature for a few minutes, you have to kind of be reminded of how unlikely it all seems that something so complex, so beautiful, would come together. And so I think, you know, in the real world, those things are as close as we can get to magic, really. Dan Seguin 38:38 Okay, this is an interesting one, Guillaume. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began? Guillaume Paradis 38:46 That's a tricky one to think through. Because there's been so much that seems to have happened over the last 24 months - and now 30 months of the pandemic, I would say just having to constantly adapt without what seemed for a while a real frame of reference, right. So if you take yourself back to the early days of the pandemic, in particular, it just seemed like every other week, we would, we would be learning new things about how the pandemic would work and how forecasts look as to how we might get out of that situation. And so, you know, I'm someone who loves change in general. But even for me, in those early days, it just seemed a little bit unsettling to feel like every other week, you had to rethink a lot of your decisions, a lot of your planning a lot of the ways in which you thought you could protect yourself, your colleagues in your family, and so just having to do that on an ongoing basis for an extended period of time. Like that was very, very challenging. And so I'd probably put that as the biggest challenge. But obviously, you know, everything else that flowed from there was back to our society or friends and family or colleagues. That was just a very, very unique situation to work through in general, right? Dan Seguin 40:11 We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately, what is your favorite movie or your favorite show? Guillaume Paradis 40:19 So I watch just about anything that comes up, that I can sort of sit through for more than 15 minutes that sort of detest now. We've all watched so much TV over the last few years that if something can capture your attention for 15 minutes, that's probably a good sign. I always, and that might be a boring answer. But I always end up going back to, you know, one of the classics and Seinfeld. So, you know, you look at what's available. And, you know, sometimes you just don't have the energy to start something new. And I just go back to it, I found it's aged fairly well, some of the humor in there is quite timeless. And so it's sort of like a comforting blanket almost at this point, they just go back to a couple old Seinfeld episodes. Dan Seguin 41:12 Lastly, sir, what's exciting you about your industry right now? Guillaume Paradis 41:18 I mean, I've said it a few times already. But just the opportunity to be in the middle of all that change. Like, it's such an important time in our societies evolution, I would not want to be on the sidelines of watching that unfold. And I think, you know, being so centrally positioned to help us all achieve those really big aspirations we have with respect to climate and the environment. I think that's great, right? And we have the tools, we have the energy we have, you know, everyone is willing, and so we just have to do it. So I think, you know, it's such a source of inspiration and energy. That, you know, I couldn't ask for more frankly, electricity was always important. And I was always something that made our industry very intriguing, and, you know, interesting, but that has been taken to a whole new level in the last little while. And for the foreseeable future, that, you know, there's going to be an endless supply of energy for all of us to solve those big problems. Dan Seguin 42:31 Well, Guillaume, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and our organization, how could they connect? Guillaume Paradis 42:45 So certainly, you know, go to our website, we've just launched a brand new website for a group of companies, I believe. It's under the name of power as one.com. Otherwise, our hydro auto website, of course, I wouldn't encourage you to find out more about me, I'm not that important. But check out the resources we have on our website. Our organization in particular is doing all sorts of novel and cool things, whether it be across Portage power, and vari Hebrew networks, or hydro Ottawa limited. So check out what we have there and reach out, you'll see all sorts of channels on there that you can use to engage with us. We're actively looking for everyone's input as we think about the future of energy. And so please come forward with whatever creative solutions you have. And I assure you, we'll consider them. Dan Seguin 43:46 Again, Guillaume, merci beaucoup, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Guillaume Paradis 43:52 Cheers. And it was great. Thank you, Dan, for having me. Dan Seguin 43:55 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Think Energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Summer Rewind: The Canadian Climate Institute’s Big Switch Reaching Canada’s net zero goals is a bit like solving a national puzzle. There are many pieces that need to fit together, including doubling or tripling the amount of zero-emissions electricity Canada currently produces to meet future demand for widespread electrification. Caroline Lee, senior researcher with the Canadian Climate Institute, walks us through the Big Switch report, which highlights three crucial changes required by Canada’s electricity sector in order to hit the country’s net zero goals. Related links Website: https://climateinstitute.ca/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/canadianclimateinstitute/ To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Summer Rewind: The 2030 EV Action Plan with Electric Mobility Canada  Summer Rewind: The 2022 federal budget doubled down on Canada’s commitment to make all light-duty vehicles and passenger truck sales fully electric by 2035. That’s a considerable investment to get Canadians behind the wheel of an EV. Daniel Breton, President and CEO of Electric Mobility Canada joins us to discuss whether the real concerns about a shift to EVs are being addressed. From pricing models to helping rural, northern First Nations and Inuit communities, there’s still a lot to be done.  Related links LinkedIn, Daniel Breton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-breton-b8a3b1a4/ LinkedIn, Electric Mobility Canada: https://www.linkedin.com/company/electric-mobility-canada/ Electric Mobility Canada: https://emc-mec.ca/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod  

Summer Rewind: Responding to emergencies and disasters with the Canadian Red Cross – thinkenergy Podcast Episode 103  When a natural disaster strikes, your electricity is at risk. And Canada is no stranger to extreme weather. During these large-scale emergencies, a coordinated effort is needed to aid Canadians – and millions around the globe. Enter the Canadian Red Cross, a leader in providing disaster relief at home and aboard. In episode 103 of thinkenergy, we chat with Guy Lepage, a Disaster Management Volunteer with the organisation, to learn more about his role and what it's like having ‘boots on the ground’ during a disaster. Related links The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada  Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/  Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod #ThinkEnergy #HydroOttawa #EnergySolutions ____________________________________________________ Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Canada has experienced a number of natural disasters in the last number of years in 2022. There was a devastating May long weekend Derecho in Ontario, forest fires and floods in British Columbia. And of course, Hurricane Fiona on the East Coast, to name just a few. For those of us in the energy sector, we know that when disaster strikes, a stable supply of electricity is jeopardized. Electricity represents safety, shelter, sanitation, warmth, and clean water. As extreme weather and other large scale events occur around the world. A coordinated global reach is needed to provide aid to millions. There is one leading organization in particular that comes to mind when you think of disaster relief with the skills, resources and people to mobilize in almost any region of this world. I'm talking about the International Red Cross. When it was created back in 1863, the Red Cross the objective was to protect and assist victims of armed conflict. Of course, their work has expanded to many types of crises, including disasters caused by extreme weather events. In total, the Red Cross has a network of more than 80 million people across the world that they can draw on to help in times of need, many right here at home. So here's today's big question. As leaders in emergency preparedness, response and execution, what is it like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. Our guest on the show today is Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Gi has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. The Red Cross stands ready to help people before, during and after a disaster. As a member of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, the Canadian Red Cross is dedicated to helping people and communities in Canada and around the world in times of need, and supporting them in strengthening their resilience. Guy. Welcome to the show.   Guy Lepage  03:16 Thanks for having me.   Dan Seguin  03:17 Guy, perhaps you can start by telling us how long you've been with the Canadian Red Cross. And what inspired you to get involved?   Guy Lepage  03:27 You'll recall back in 2005, 17 years ago, Hurricane Katrina hit the Deep South and of course, that made headlines around the world and then was working for the provincial government at the time and the premier at the time. Dalton McGuinty was contacted by the Canadian Red Cross asking him to send 100 members of the Ontario Public Service to help the American Red Cross. So I put my hand up as a former journalist to help as a communications or a public affairs officer. And I went to the deep south for three weeks as a public affairs officer and I got to see up close what the Red Cross does, whether it's American Canadian, choose your country, we all work under the same guidelines and rules. So you know, I saw how it was done. And so I came home and I said, Okay, I've been to the Deep South, what can I do in my own backyard. And that's when I started thinking about all the courses and the training I should have had before we're going to the Deep South. And it was just an amazing experience and the start of my Red Cross career. Now I can tell you that before I worked for the province, I worked as a journalist in Ottawa for the Ottawa Citizen and CJ wait gender Max Keeping for the your listeners who remember Max, and they covered disasters from house fires to train derailments to, you know, high winds, tornadoes, and there was one case in Gatineau. Across the river, there was cottage country, where high winds came through and pushed a canoe literally through the walls of a cottage. And it was something out of a movie and I said wow, that's amazing. So when I saw that kind of devastation in person in the Deep South. That's, that's okay. This is where I want to be. And giving my time my efforts as a volunteer is for people who go through this kind of disaster.   Dan Seguin  05:13 Okay. Now, what are some of the roles you've had with the organization?   Guy Lepage  05:20 I guess the main role has been as a personal disaster assistance team member, and I will PDA for short, that's when we respond to house fires. So you know, God forbid you and your family, there's a fire at your home at two o'clock in the morning, two volunteers will show up at your home and make sure you've got a place this day and give you gift cards. So you can buy food and clothing if need be. So I've done that the entire time, my 17 years with the Red Cross. I've also been a site manager, when there is a disaster. For example, in the Ottawa area after the tornadoes a few years ago, there were different shelters set up information centers. So someone had to run those centers to make sure they were properly run and offered the services that were needed. So I've been a site manager. And basically, it's other duties as assigned. The Red Cross is very good at training us to do all kinds of things in emergency management.   Dan Seguin  06:16 Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Now, Curiosity is getting the best of me. Talk to me about the role that was the most difficult. And what was the most memorable?   Guy Lepage  06:30 Wow, that's kind of like asking a parent which is their favorite child. I mean, I've been on 18 deployments in Canada, the US, Haiti and in Europe. So it's really difficult to choose. But I'll give you an example. This past summer, I was in Budapest, Hungary working with the International Federation of the Red Cross. On the Ukraine relief operation, we all know what's happening overseas. And my role was a public affairs officer or media relations officer to tell people in the media what was going on, from a red cross point of view. And we've held a news conference. And we told people inflation is making life difficult. But more importantly, winter is coming. Even though this was August, in the middle of a heatwave, winter is coming. And it's going to be a major issue. And now, if you look at the stories out of Ukraine, that is a major issue because of hydro shortages, natural gas shortages, and so on. So that's a memorable one because as a volunteer, I was part of a major relief operation, you know, who would have thought there'd be that kind of conflict anywhere in the world in this day and age, closer to home. A couple of years ago, there was a COVID lock down into Szechwan First Nation in northern Ontario, a fly in community. So there was a COVID outbreak, the entire community was locked down. So even the local store where they buy their groceries was locked down. So I was up there, the team of 12, where groceries, supplies were flown in, they were taken to the local hockey arena, where we put together boxes of essentials like milk, butter, bread, canned goods, dry goods, cereals, and so on. And we assembled boxes of these goods, and they were delivered, the boxes were delivered by the military, they were the rangers to every household in the community. So people could feed themselves. I mean, talk about basic, bare basic service that we all need. So that was a challenge because we were in the middle of a cult COVID lockdown community. So we had to really, really respect the rules of social distancing, sanitizing wearing a mask, we were goggles, we weren't gloves. And we stayed in a church because there was no hotel infrastructure, and we had to stay in a church. We slept in, and top tents on the floor of the church. And whenever that was the only time I could be without wearing a mask. And as soon as you step out of your tent, you have to wear a mask just because we have to protect ourselves. So that's memorable. But I guess the most memorable cases for me then, is when I show up at two o'clock in the morning, and I'm dealing with a family or an individual who's just been burnt out of their home, their apartment, and they've lost everything that they own. And they just have no idea how they're going to cope with this. Because first responders after firefighters, we're the next people they see wearing the red cross vest, and I'm there to tell them, are you okay? We're going to get you a place to live, a safe place to stay. We're going to give you gift cards for clothing, gift cards for food to help you get back on your feet. And people are so thankful. And I tell you the hugs. And I know it sounds strange to say this in a COVID environment. But the hugs I've received over the years from people who are so, so grateful. It makes it all worthwhile. Whether it's getting up at two o'clock in the morning or responding at two o'clock in the afternoon. People are so appreciative, so those are the big memories I take away from this.   Dan Seguin  10:05 Okay. I read that you've assisted in some big operations all over the world. Can you tell us what some of those were, and perhaps your biggest takeaway from those experiences?   Guy Lepage  10:21 I've been very fortunate then and that I've responded to emergencies across Canada. I've been to three hurricanes in the US, Hurricane Sandy in New York, Hurricane Michael in Florida. And Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Well, the Deep South. I went to Haiti in 2010. And as I mentioned, I went to Europe this past summer. So my biggest takeaway is the resilience of people who are affected by a disaster. Um, yes, the initial shock is overwhelming. I mean, no one ever expects to lose their home to a hurricane or a forest fire or an earthquake or whatever. No one sits around the kitchen table and says, Hey, what will we do if we lose our home. So we arrived, wearing the red cross vest to work with local, other responders and governments and we came to the rescue to help them rebuild their lives. So the resilience of people when they get over the shock, they are so appreciative of the work that we are offering the relief we're offering, rather, and they start immediately to rebuild their lives, where am I and my family going to stay? How we're going to feed ourselves and clothe ourselves and get back to normal. So that is, that is the one constant that I can share with you. And the other is, of course, how they are so appreciative. So it doesn't matter where you're from, it is where it happens. They are so happy that the Red Cross and other responders are there to help.   Dan Seguin  11:51 Okay, deep. I'm probably going to embarrass you just a little bit. In November 2021, you received the Order of the Red Cross, considered the Canadian Red Cross highest award, it recognizes extraordinary people who have provided outstanding services at home and abroad. Can you tell us what your service and that honor has meant to you?   Guy Lepage  12:21 Other than my wedding day, and the birth of my children, it's the highest honor of my life, because to be recognized, to do something that I enjoy, and something that I get a whole lot more out of, than what I put in, was just a complete shock. It was emotional, it was overwhelming. I mean, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. So I don't mind telling you that I cried, it was so overwhelming. And, you know, most, I'd say all volunteers with the Red Cross and even outside of the organization, don't do this for the accolades. We do it because we like to volunteer, we like to help people in a time of crisis. And in my case, because I've been doing this for 17 years, I enjoy it so much, I will keep doing it as long as I can. And as I've just mentioned, I get a whole lot more out of it than what I put in. Let me put that into context. Yes, it's a lot of hard work, I deploy for two weeks, three weeks a month, I'm away from my family, my friends, I'm out of my comfort zone, long, stressful days. But in return, I work with other like minded volunteers from around the world. I learned from them, I help people in a time of need. And I tell the new volunteers that I train in my backyard, that you will get warm and fuzzies when you help people. Now by that, you know, we've all helped people in a time in our lives. And if you help someone move a friend of yours, having a bad day and try to console them either on the phone or in person, you know, you feel good about yourself, because you've helped someone you've done something for someone else, you know, because you want to not because you have to or you get paid or anything like that. So I've had the opportunity to do that on a bigger scale. So I've had a ton of warm and fuzzies in my career. All this to say that the Order of the Red Cross was just unexpected, but an incredible, incredible honor. Very good. Very good.   Dan Seguin  14:20 I think it's fair to say that the Red Cross is synonymous with disaster relief. For those that don't know, can you highlight how the Canadian Red Cross gets activated in communities?   Guy Lepage  14:33 That's a very good question. Because every time I go out, regardless of if it's a local fire or something big, you know, people say wow, you know, how do you guys do it? We didn't call or you know, we didn't know you guys did this. Most people need to know that we don't just show up on our own. We work with the local municipality, the local government, provincial federal, depending on where the disaster is. We are invited to assist. You may already know that in Ontario, most municipalities by law have to have an emergency management plan in place, which means when there is a need for a shelter, they have designated a school or a community center or even a church as to where the Red Cross and other organizations can do their thing. So we work with all levels of government and local municipalities, other first responders just to deliver the emergency aid that's needed at the time. Now, this could be an emergency lodging shelter, as I said, in a community center, for example, we could set up a reception center where people can get information, they can get gift cards, personal services, or reunite with their families. We offer a wide variety of services. But again, I want to stress that we are invited by the local municipality or level of government that needs assistance, and then we come to the rescue.   Dan Seguin  15:55 Okay. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had 100 year floods, tornadoes, a Derecho, heat waves, and multiple wind and ice storms. A lot of these events result in lengthy power outages. I know the Canadian Red Cross has been involved with boots on the ground for some of our emergencies here in the nation's capital. What does a typical operation look like?   Guy Lepage  16:26 Every disaster is different. So the first thing that we do is first boots on the ground, work with local governments to assess how bad is the damage caused by, as you mentioned, ice storm, a windstorm, heat waves, tornadoes, and so on. And then we call in the volunteers, the staff, you know, the personnel and the supplies needed to meet the demand. That is the first thing because if you don't know how bad things are, you can't respond appropriately. Now, once we determine what's needed, then we bring in the troops and we bring in the gear and we bring in the gift cards that we need to meet the demand. For example, after the tornado in Ottawa, back in 2018, I was deployed to Gatineau to work at one of the shelters that was set up there where people were staying, and we're also showing up to be assessed for gift cards and so on. So by the time I arrived, the people who had done the advance work knew how many people were needed to work at the shelter. I was one of the site managers, and how many volunteers were needed to meet the demand at the time. So that is the key. How does the operation work? We assess then we bring in what's the personnel and the supplies that are needed to meet the demand.   Dan Seguin 17:44 Okay. Now, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what are some of the ways the Red Cross team helps residents during a crisis?   Guy Lepage  17:55 That's a very good question. We help in a number of ways. The first one would be an emergency shelter, if people have been burned out of their homes, or they just can't go home for whatever reason. And they don't have the funds to go to hotels or they're no hotels available. or for whatever reason, they just have nowhere else to go, they can come to the shelter which can be in a school in a church and a community center. We will set up cots with Red Cross blankets, so people have a place to stay. We set them up to have an area for single men, an area for single women, an area for families, an area for families with family members who need assistance, you know, wheelchairs, that kind of thing. We also set up reception centers where people can show up to get information, they can show up to get gift cards, or just have a shoulder to cry on. We have people who are trained to deal with the psychological impact that disasters have on people. And I can tell you that is as important as giving people a place to stay and gift cards to eat food and clothing. Because it is such a shock. And some people have difficulty dealing with it and they need specialized care. We will distribute funds through gift cards, as I mentioned, and will provide emergency items. For example, hygiene kits, you know, you've lost everything in your home, you don't have your toothpaste, your toothbrush, you don't have your shampoo, you don't have the basics of life that we all come to depend on. We will supply those kinds of things as well. So we are there to help people get back on their feet. And we do the best we can and I think we do a pretty good job. We're always learning to, you know, to get better. But I believe having been around as long as I have. Most of the time things work really, really well.   Dan Seguin  19:43 Now Guy, I read each year the Canadian Red Cross helps more than 100,000 people in Canada. How do people volunteer? What kind of roles are there? And is there a minimum time commitment   Guy Lepage  19:59 There are several ways for people to get involved. The first is emergency management, which is what we've been talking about, and the area I focus on. That's to help people impacted by small or large disasters and emergencies. Now, we're always also looking for Meals on Wheels, delivery drivers, you know, people I think, are familiar with Meals on Wheels. You deliver, you know, hot, nutritious meals to members of the community who are unable to prepare their own food. And, you know, this allows them to stay in their homes for a longer period of time, we have a program called friendly calls, this is where trained Red Cross volunteers or staff members, they talk with adults who are feeling isolated or lonely, for some reason, you know, they've got limited social or family connections, and you know, who feel that they could benefit from having a more social interaction. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, there are a lot of people who were on their own, they couldn't go visit their families. And if you're living by yourself, and you've got no one to talk to, it can have a very negative impact on your well being. So this friendly calls program, you know, someone will pick up the call and say, Hey, Daniel, how you doing? Let's talk and talk about your family, talk about the weather, talking about whatever, just to have a social connection, so you're not by yourself. And we're also looking for transportation drivers, you know, to get people, elderly or disabled people in the community who are unable to use public transportation or other private means. So there are many ways to get involved in the redcross.ca has a lot of information about that. And every program is different. And as far as your minimum commitment, you know, for example, here in Durham Region, and I'm sure it's the same in the Ottawa area. My disaster management volunteers have to fill out their availability for 32 hours a month, and you say, Wow, that sounds like a lot. No, it's not because you're not going to be out and about doing 32 hours worth of work. You're just available for 32 hours a month. And if there isn't, if there's no fire, or no emergency, you don't do anything. Okay, so every program is different. But I want to make the stress the point, again, Daniel, that you'll feel so good about the amount of time that you donate to the organization, whether it's emergency management or as Meals on Wheels, delivery, driver friendly calls, however you choose to get involved, you will feel so good about donating your time and your expertise, that the four hours, 10 hours, whatever the number of hours you volunteered for, will make you feel so good.   Dan Seguin  22:39 Okay, follow up question here. Are you seeing an increase in the need for volunteers? And if so, why?   Guy Lepage  22:47 There are many reasons why there's an increase in the need for volunteers. You know, we've all talked about climate change, and how that that's increased the number of weather related disasters and you look at British Columbia with the flooding, fall of 2021, the forest fires. Those are just a couple of major incidents in Canada and around the world. When it was in Europe this summer, there were massive forest fires all across Europe with an incredibly hot and dry summer that was happening over there. So the more disasters happen, we need more volunteers to step up and deliver the services that we need to deliver. You know, you look at Manitoba flooding, British Columbia flooding I just mentioned mentioned earlier, every spring, they flood out in that community, and they're evacuated to other communities in northern Ontario, where they're living in hotels, until the water recedes, and then they go home. So I've responded to Timmins Ontario, for example, where I was a site manager, making sure that the tuck shops that we operated in hotels were fully stocked where people could get their deodorant, their diapers, their baby food, whatever, why they lived at the hotel. So we are always looking for new people because things happen. And you know, we've helped 9000 people this year and provided over $300 million in recovery funding across the country. I doubt very much that amount is going to go down in 2023. That's just the reality. One more example I can give you. Hurricane Fiona hit the Maritimes on September 24. I was in Nova Scotia in November. And we were still giving out $500 gift cards to people affected by the storm. Two months later. We've helped in the Maritimes. We've provided 5700 emergency items to people. And we've had 520 people, volunteers and staff respond, you know from across the country. We've had seven 6000 conversations with people who needed to talk to someone about hey, I'm having some real psychological issues here, this is having a major impact on my mental well being. So you know, 45 Oh sorry 45 reception centers were set up across the Maritimes. So that's just with one storm, one disaster. So, you know, we've got to be ready to respond to the next disaster which will happen, of course, with a warning or with a little warning. So that's why we are always looking for new people.   Dan Seguin  25:24 Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters, I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters, what is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?   Guy Lepage  25:47 House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times as people leave stuff on the stove, on attended, it spreads, fire starts and spreads, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives and but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assist the family to make sure they have lodging they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And then we're an emergency service. So after three days, and people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can't do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we will give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any any kind of disaster and, and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building is evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter and a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.   Guy Lepage  28:00 Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes,   Guy Lepage  28:13 I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you know, leave something unattended, and, and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where there were indeed mum and dad and three kids living in an apartment. And one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out get out. So we responded, they went to some friends, a friend's location too. So we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has soot on her face caused by the fire. And she starts crying and the teardrops are rolling down her cheeks through statements and I'll always remember that image because she was crying a) because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis. We will of course, but if you can prevent it that's even better.   Dan Seguin  29:52 This next one is important to many of our listeners. Often we feel powerless during an emergency, particularly when we lose electricity for an extended period of time. What are your recommendations on how people can prepare for emergencies? Is three days still the golden rule to follow?   Guy Lepage  30:15 Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours three days from now, from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire, whatever the situation, can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bays, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water. And we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and cook two liters. To wash and bait. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener, have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio. So you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning, I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight, there was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, you know, last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition, I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half, what am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication, enough pet food and enough water, enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.   Dan Seguin  32:55 Okay, Guy, are there special considerations for seniors, or other vulnerable groups that we should be aware of?   Guy Lepage  33:05 Medication is the most important one, because I'm generalizing here, of course, but more seniors that need medication than younger adults. But even anybody can need medication. So you've got to ensure you have enough medication on hand at all times. You know, certainly for three days in case you cannot get out for whatever reason. I mean, if a senior is living on his or her own, and runs out of medication, and in a family member who normally takes care of them can't make it, that is a major problem. So you have to plan for every scenario.   Dan Seguin  33:42 Now, besides emergency response, what other programs does the Canadian Red Cross provide that people might not be aware of?   Guy Lepage 33:51 There are several programs and everything I'm going to share with you is available on the redcross.ca first aid and CPR courses. And you know, we all know we should have this course. I've taken it because I have to. I'm a Red Cross volunteer. But you know, you hear oh, yeah, I'll get to that one day. And then you have a family member who has a heart attack or needs, you know, cuts themselves badly. How do we stop the bleeding? That kind of thing. So having a first aid and CPR course under your belt is highly recommended. Transportation: we offer transportation services for those in need that mentioned you know, elderly and disabled people in the community who can't use public transportation. You know, we'll keep people connected in their community by providing this kind of affordable transportation, whether it's medical appointments, even social gatherings or to go shopping, you know, that's another service that we provide meals on wheels. We need drivers to make sure those meals get to the people that need them. This helps people stay in their homes by making sure they eat a healthy diet. They have a healthy diet. We have a mobile food bank, and this service delivers food to persons who are unable to access food banks due to omitted or temporary disabilities, the friendly calls program, that's when you know, someone calls people who live by themselves and who can get lonely. We heard all kinds of stories during the pandemic, where people, because of pandemic rules, couldn't go out and visit friends and family. So this friendly calls program really helps people connect with those who just can't get out of their homes and are lonely. And it's really does make a huge difference. So, like I said, all kinds of different services for different interests and all the details are@redcross.ca.   Dan Seguin  35:34 Okay, finally, with everything you've experienced, and witnessed, what are you grateful for?   Guy Lepage  35:44 I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful for my family. And I'm grateful for the experience that I've had with the Red Cross, because it's taught me many things. But the most important thing is to not sweat the small stuff, when I get back from a deployment where people have lost everything they have. And they've got to start from scratch and go through a very stressful time. And then I'm standing in a coffee shop lineup. And I hear people complain about the service or the coffee is too hot, or they got my order wrong or whatever. I just shake my head and said, Come on, guys, you know, first world problems. I'm grateful for everything that I have. And I'm grateful for the opportunities I've been given to help people in time of crisis.   Dan Seguin  36:28 Guy, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?   Guy Lepage  36:35 K, I'm ready.   Dan Seguin  36:36 Okay, cool.   Dan Seguin  36:37 Now, what are you reading right now?   Guy Lepage  36:40 I'm a big Stephen King fan. And I'm reading a book called If It Bleeds. I'm behind on my Stephen King reading, because I know there's another one that's been released, and I'm hoping one of my family members will give it to me for Christmas.   Dan Seguin  36:54 Okay. What would be the name of your boat? If you had one? Or maybe have?   Guy Lepage  37:01 No, I doubt it would either be Val after my mother, or Jane after my wife.   Dan Seguin  37:06 Now, who is someone that you admire?   Guy Lepage  37:09 My mom and my wife! They the two most important people in my life. Who teach me teach me so much. My mother who raised me, of course, and my lovely bride who, you know, married 32 years and is still a source of inspiration and my biggest fan.   Dan Seguin  37:26 Okay, moving on here. Guy, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Guy Lepage  37:34 Oh, wow. I have to say, the resilience of people go through a crisis. I mean, it's, it's so inspiring that people have been knocked down, but they're the get up and shake themselves off and say, Okay, let's start rebuilding our lives. So I think that's, that's magical in its own right.   Dan Seguin  37:53 Okay. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Guy Lepage  38:01 I think initially it was the stress - the underlying stress. And when you think back to 2020, when there was no, no cure, no vaccine. And we are all literally stuck in our homes totally go out to the grocery store and other emergencies. Thoughts that that was difficult to deal with. Now unfortunate that I deal with stress as a volunteer and when in through work. That was, I think, the biggest challenge.   Dan Seguin  38:27 Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie? What are you watching right now?   Guy Lepage  38:36 I'm watching Ryan Reynolds, Canadian actor, as you may know, has his bottom soccer team or English football team over in Wales. And they've done a documentary on that really enjoying that. I'm rewatching Ted Lasso because the World Cup and soccer and football. I mean, I enjoyed it. First time around, and I'm enjoying it now. Anything that makes me laugh, I'm all for.   Dan Seguin  39:02 Well, Guy, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how should they connect?   Guy Lepage  39:15 redcross.ca has all the information that we've talked about, about the services we provide during a disaster following a disaster and even before a disaster. So redcross.ca is definitely the place to go for that kind of information.   Dan Seguin  39:30 Okay, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Guy Lepage  39:37 Thank you so much for having me. It has been a blast. Really enjoy sharing my adventures. I truly am a very lucky man to be able to do this. And as I said, share my adventures and thank you for having me, Dan.   Dan Seguin  39:50 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

To address climate change, we must be united, working together towards a common goal. But differing perspectives have created a complex and polarized debate: renewable energy versus fossil fuel versus nuclear power. These discussions require an open mind and constructive dialogue to find solutions that work for all stakeholders. In thinkenergy episode 106, Dr. Monica Gattinger, li, unpacks how we can build a stronger way forward for Canada – together. Related links Positive Energy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/positive-energy  Positive Energy, Twitter: https://twitter.com/uOttawa_Energy  The Institute for Science, Society and Policy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/issp  The Institute for Science, Society and Policy, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-science-society-and-policy/  Monica Gattinger, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monica-gattinger-748a6a42/  Monica Gattinger, Twitter: https://twitter.com/MonicaGattinger To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets   ------------------------------ Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry,   Dan Seguin  00:28 Everyone, welcome back. Energy and climate change are important topics that have been increasingly discussed in recent years due to the significant impact they have on the environment, the economy, and society as a whole. The effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels, increased frequency of extreme weather events, and loss of biodiversity are widely recognized by the scientific community. However, there are different views on the best ways to address these issues, particularly in terms of energy policy, and the way we live, work, consume and travel. While some advocate for the transition to renewable energy sources, others still argue for the continued use of fossil fuels or the development of other technologies such as nuclear energy.   Dan Seguin  01:27 These differing perspectives have created a complex and often polarized debate. It is important to approach these discussions with an open mind, consider the evidence and engage in constructive dialogue to find common ground and solutions that work for all stakeholders. We've often heard that working together and respecting different opinions are essential for effective collaboration and innovation. For climate change, it's more important than ever, that we come together to work towards a common goal. So here is today's big question. When it comes to energy, and climate, are we able to consider diverse perspectives so we can identify blind spots, and challenge assumptions that will ultimately lead to a stronger way forward for Canada. Today, my special guest is Dr. Monica Gattinger. She's the director of the Institute for Science, Society and Policy. She's a full professor at the School of Political Studies and founder Chair of Positive Energy at the University of Ottawa. Monica, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners a bit about yourself, and how the positive energy program that you found it at the University of Ottawa came to be?   Monica Gattinger  02:55 Thanks, happy to. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa. And I've been a student of energy, Dan it kind of pains me to say it, for but going on three decades now. And I guess about maybe 10 years ago or so around 2014-2015, you might remember at that time, there was a lot of contentiousness in the energy sector, particularly around pipeline development. And I think, you know, I felt a certain frustration that I'd go to energy conferences, and we'd all kind of get concerned about this. And, you know, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air, but what was happening, and then walk away, come back at the next conference to do the same thing. So the idea that I had was to create an initiative that would convene leaders who were concerned about these issues of public confidence and energy decision making, convening them together to try to identify what some of the key challenges are. And then I would undertake a research team, some solution focused, applied academic research to actually feed that process on an ongoing basis. So it's, you know, not just conferences, we walk away conferences, we walk away, it's, let's put in place a process to actually excuse me to actually get to some solution seeking on the challenges.   Dan Seguin  04:11 Okay, now, I have to ask you, because I love the name, given how polarizing energy has been for a number of years now, is the name meant to have a double meaning?   Monica Gattinger  04:20 Yes, it is. You are exactly right. That was you know, at the time when we created that name, that was precisely what we were trying to do, which is let's have some positive discussions about energy. I think the other thing I'd point to is, you know, for us, and it's always been the case that energy is all energy. So yes, at the time when we created positive energy, you know, what was in the news was big pipelines. But many of these issues and the challenges that we address with our work, apply to all energy sources, whether it's, you know, electricity, oil and gas at the upstream downstream, midstream sectors, so we really wanted to try to foster a pan Canadian approach on on the issues with energy as the core.   Dan Seguin  05:10 Monica, in one of your research reports, you acknowledge that division is eroding public trust and preventing progress. Why is that happening? Is it a lack of understanding around climate change and Canada's goals? Or is it more about the method or policies in place to get there?   Monica Gattinger  05:32 That's a super important question, Dan. And it's really at the heart of what we're aiming to do with positive energy. So if you look at where we're at now, on energy and climate, there's, you know, a tremendous global move towards net zero. And, of course, this is going to mean just a wholesale transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. So, you know, there are bound to be disagreements of division over how we go about doing that. And I think, you know, one of the crucial things about this energy transition in comparison to previous energy transitions, is that it's going to be largely policy driven, like, yes, there will be market developments, but policy is going to be playing such an important role. So to your question, you know, a lot of this is around the methods or the policies that we're going to be putting in place when it comes to energy transition. And I think our work really starts from the, you know, the very strong belief that if we don't have public confidence in government decision making over energy and climate, we're not going to be able to make ongoing forward progress on either energy or, or climate objectives. And for us, public confidence is, you know, the confidence of people, whether as citizens, as consumers as community members, but it's also the confidence of investors, right, we know that we're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy infrastructure, without the investor confidence to make that happen, we're not going to be able to to, you know, achieve the emissions reductions that are envisioned envisaged. So for us that whole question of division, and how do we address division, where it exists, is just fundamental to our efforts.   Dan Seguin  07:17 Okay. Now, do you think we lack a shared positive vision as Canadians on the future? And how we get there together? How do we build bridges? Is this what you're trying to achieve with positive energy?   Monica Gattinger  07:32 Yeah, I'd say yes or no, on the shared vision. So you know, we do a lot of public opinion, polling researchers, as you might know, Dan, and and, you know, uniformly Canadian scores, government's very poorly, on whether they are succeeding and developing a shared vision for Canada's energy future. That said, you know, I don't see it all as a whole bad news, there is remarkable alignment of views among Canadians on many aspects of the country's energy future, I think sometimes what, what we tend to hear, you know, are the voices in political debates and in the media, and in the end in the media, that are on you know, sort of opposite ends of a spectrum, if you look at, you know, sort of where Canadians are at, in general, you know, in terms of the majority opinions, they're often much more aligned than what you might think, by listening to some of our political debates or reading the media. So I think what we're trying to do at positive energies is a few things. One is, you know, to really try to see just how divided we are, and a lot of our work has brought forward that we're not as divided as we might think, on some of these issues. And the second thing we're trying to do is provide a forum for people who do want to work constructively and positively to chart a positive path forward, provide that forum for those to do that, and then to undertake academic research to support that. And one of the things that we found is that there's just a tremendous appetite for that kind of initiative.   Dan Seguin  09:05 Okay, Monica, hoping you can shed some light on this next item. What do you mean, when you see that Canada is at a log jam when it comes to charting our energy future?   Monica Gattinger  09:19 That's a great question. Because, you know, when I think about when we wrote that, that was a few that were written a few years ago. So it kind of answers that question a little bit differently now than I would have if you'd asked it at the time that we wrote it. So if you think about it, cast your mind back to 2015. And the creation between the federal government and the provinces of the pan Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change, there was a lot of alignment between the federal government and provinces and territories around climate change. And then we had some electoral turnover and new governments coming into power at the provincial level and the round sort of the 2018 period and that relative peace between federal and provincial governments began to be overturned. And so that, you know, the log jam that we were referring to was really written at that period of time, we were seeing a lot of fractiousness between the federal government and provincial governments. And don't get me wrong, we still see, we still see some of that, but certainly not to the level we did at that time. So I think it over the last few years, we've seen much greater alignment emerge in the country, notably around the concept of net zero, which we think is really, really, really constructive progress. I think, where we see some of the challenges now is moving to implementation, right? How do we move to reduce emissions and actually roll up our sleeves and do it in a way that will build and maintain public confidence? That's, you know, that's very much where we're casting our efforts these days.   Dan Seguin  10:50 Okay, cool. And what are some of the weaknesses you found in energy decision making?   Monica Gattinger  10:56 So I think there are a few that I would point to, you know, one would be and our current work is zeroing in on this more than we have in the past, is the whole question of energy security. And by that what, what we're referring to is the reliability and affordability and availability of energy. So in the absence, I mean, Dan, you know, you work at hydro Ottawa, so you would know, when you know, when the lights go out. People are nervous, it really captures their attention. I'll put it that way. And so in the absence of, you know, reliable, affordable energy, it's going to be very difficult to make ongoing progress on emissions reductions. So that whole question of energy security is one of the what I'd say is sort of the weaknesses in the frame that policymakers are often bringing to, to energy decision making, I think a second area that really is going to need some attention is our policy and regulatory frameworks for energy project decision making. I mean, we know, let's say, you know, take electrification, if we're going to be moving forward on electrification in a meaningful way. Most reasonable estimates assume we're going to need to double or triple our generating capacity in the country, and all the infrastructure transmission, local distribution, all that goes along with that, that's going to require building a whole lot of infrastructure. And so there's definitely some weaknesses there in our existing frameworks for doing that. And then the third area I'd point to is collaboration between governments. And so yes, federal and provincial, but it's also increasingly, municipal governments as well need to be collaborating with other levels of government and indigenous governments too, so bringing together that collaboration across jurisdictions is an area where there's a lot of a lot of strength that we're going to need to be building.   Dan Seguin  12:47 Okay, Monica, following up on this theme, positive energy has conducted a number of public opinion surveys since 2015, to gauge Canadian support for the country's climate commitments and their views on our international credibility. What are some surprises? And have you seen any change in attitudes since you started the surveys?   Monica Gattinger  13:11 Yeah, we've done a lot of work. We have a fantastic partnership with Nanos research, we've been working with Nick Nanos and the Nanos team since 2015, we've done lots of public opinion polling along the way. And so I think, you know, one of the things that has surprised me the most about this, and maybe it's just my own naivete as as a, you know, an academic researcher, but is just the pragmatism of Canadians, you know, many of the questions that we put to Canadians come back with very pragmatic and balanced responses. So there seems to be that recognition on the part of, of Canadians of the need to take a balanced approach to energy and climate issues. So I'll give you just a couple of quick examples. So we've been tracking Canadians level of climate ambition, we started doing this actually, during the pandemic. And so we asked people on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is now the worst time and 10 is the best time to take action on climate, you know, what, what, how would you score things? And, you know, the majority of Canadians, you know, score things strongly, they want to see climate action. We've seen some weakening of that, notably, as we've got some weakening of the economic conditions that has weakened people's appetite. So that's sort of one thing we, you know, Canadians want climate action. On the second. Second thing I'd point to is, we've done a lot of tracking as well, around Canadians views on the importance of oil and gas to Canada's current economy and to its future economy. And so, you know, there again, we see what you might expect, which is people there's a recognition that oil and gas is important to Canada's current economy. Views tend to drop off a little bit in terms of its importance to the future economy, but much stronger than I would have anticipated in terms of the level of, you know, opinions when it comes to the strength, or when it comes to the importance, apologies of oil and gas and Canada's current and future economy. One thing I'm just going to, you know, like heads up, we've got a study coming out very shortly. And we've seen a jump in Canadians' views around the importance of oil and gas to the country's current and future economy. And we're thinking that this might be because of economic conditions having changed, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine, just creating a different kind of an environment for Canadians opinions, then the last thing I point to that, for me is kind of been surprising, but in a not always fun way is that we've also been tracking Canadians views on government's performance on energy and climate issues. And then it doesn't matter what aspect of government performance we ask people about, they always score it like so weak, like weak to the point, when we first asked this question, I'm like, Nick, do people you know, just kind of score governments weekly? And so this is just, you know, typical stuff. He's like, No, Monica, that's really low scores. So I think there's a recognition there on the part of Canadians that governments have a lot of work to do, that this is difficult stuff, to to to take on. But that we're going to need to if we're going to be able to achieve some of our climate ambition in the country.   Dan Seguin  16:27 Now, let's dig into the research. First, can you tell us who you're convening and bringing together to conduct your research and who your intended audience is? Who do you want to influence?    Monica Gattinger  16:42 Yeah, so we're bringing together leaders, from business, from government and from government, we're referring to both policymakers and regulatory agencies, leaders from indigenous organizations, from civil society organizations, like environmental NGOs, and then academics, like myself. And our aim is really with the research and convening that we're undertaking is to inform decision making, you know, so the key audience for this from our perspective as government decision makers, whether policymakers or regulators at, you know, at at any level of government, really, more broadly, in our we're working very closely with the energy and climate community at large. So our intended audience isn't, you know, sort of the general public per se, although I like to think that we're sort of working on their behalf in terms of a lot of the work, a lot of the work that we're doing   Dan Seguin  17:37 Great stuff, Monica, now, let's talk about your first multi year research phase, public confidence in energy decision making. Why is it important to start here?   Monica Gattinger  17:49 Yeah, for us, this was really crucial to try to dig into and understand why we are facing these challenges to public confidence in decision making, for energy and climate issues. And, you know, believe it or not, we spent about two years trying to dig into that problem and identify all of its different, all of its different components. So we published a study in that first phase of research called system under stress, where we were focusing on energy decision making, and the need to inform, sorry, to reform energy decision making in that study, and this was sort of how we unpack this challenge of public confidence. We use this metaphor of elephants, horses, and sitting ducks. And so the elephants were elephants in the room. So at that time, one of the big issues that was, you know, informing or leading to challenges in public confidence was that there was a belief on the part of quite a few folks that governments were taking insufficient action on climate change. And as a result of that, not having a forum, you know, to move forward action on climate change, many folks who were concerned about that or raising those issues in regulatory processes for individual energy projects, right? And if your regulators say, well, that's not part of my mandate. So what would we do with this, and that led to some challenges. Another Elephant, you know, another elephant in the room at that time was reconciliation with indigenous peoples, that there was insufficient action on the part, you know, on the, you know, in the minds of many around reconciliation with indigenous peoples and so, you know, some of the big challenges that indigenous communities were facing, whether missing, murdered indigenous women, you know, potable drinking water, economic conditions, a whole host of challenges were also being raised in the context of individual energy project decision making. The process for lack of other forums to take those concerns to another elephant in the room was cumulative effects. Right. So communities were concerned not necessarily about a particular project, but about the project that came before the project, who was going to come after it, and what would be the cumulative effects on their community. So that was sort of the elephant, the elephant in the room policy gaps, basically, that governments needed to take more action to fulfill. When it came to the horses, we were referring to horses that had left the barn. So in other words, changes in society and the broader, you know, context, where you're not going to turn the clock back on them. So things like, you know, people expect, rightly, to have a say, in decisions that affect them. They're not different, you know, they don't defer the way they used to, to governments and to decision makers, they expect to have a say in decisions that affect them. And some of our decision making processes weren't frankly, providing sufficient opportunities for them to be heard. Technological change, right, you know, you're not going to turn the clock back on social media. And that also has fundamentally changed the context in terms of how information circulates capacities for misinformation, disinformation, etc. And so when against this backdrop, you know, who are the sitting ducks? Well, the sitting ducks are government decision makers, right? They're trying to deal with all of these challenges. We got a lot of traction with that report, Dan, because I think it sort of helped people to, you know, frame up, what is the nature of the challenge that we're facing when it comes to public confidence, which of course, then begins to open up solution spaces?   Dan Seguin  21:40 Okay. What did you uncover when it came to the role of local communities?   Monica Gattinger  21:46 Yeah, we did a major study on this, it was some of this was happening concurrently. But we did a major study in collaboration with the Canada West Foundation, where we did some very deep dive case study research on half a dozen energy projects across the country with the aim of identifying drivers of local community satisfaction or dissatisfaction with energy project, decision making processes. So these were projects, you know, wind, gas plants, hydro facilities, transmission lines, pipelines, shale development, like a whole variety of different kinds of projects in different locations across the country. And so there are a few things I'd point to there in terms of some of the key findings. Probably the first and foremost is the importance of early and meaningful consultation and engagement. And I feel kind of silly saying that, because it's like, we have been saying this for years, how important this is. But yet, you know, there are still proponents that aren't necessarily, you know, aren't necessarily getting out there early and in a meaningful way, to communities. I think the second thing, and it's related, that I'd point to is the importance of information, like yes, communities want information about a project. But it's an what we refer to in the report is a necessary but insufficient condition, right, just saying, you know, here's the project, here's the information, this should change your mind, if you've got any concerns, really and truly is not is not enough, you need that meaningful engagement, you need to hear from people. And in some instances, this is a third thing I'd point to. In some instances, you know, it's important to draw the distinction between what a community's interests are so it could be, you know, economic development, jobs, etc, but also what their values are. And there may be some projects that even though they might advance the community's interests, in terms of jobs, etc, if they run counter to community values, and what they want to see developed in their community, it will be very challenging to foster support for up for a project. Another thing, we found just a couple more things that point to here. Another thing we found that I think is going to be increasingly important as we move on net zero and emissions reductions, oftentimes at the community level, the key environmental issue is local environmental impacts, as opposed to global climate change impacts. So even if you've got a project that's going to be good for the climate, if it's got local environmental impacts from the perspective of a community, those concerns may actually trump the good that could be done more broadly when it comes to the climate. And so I guess the last thing I'd point to is, you know, just the importance of process, having a decision making process in which people can have faith. And so, you know, we did a lot of work right in communities. So you'd have community members say, like, I can get behind a decision that I don't agree with, you know, if my perspective is at the end of the day, we're heard in a meaningful way and were considered in a meaningful way. But governments decided to go in a different direction. I can, you know, I can live with that as long as I felt that the process was one that was legitimate. So that process piece is so important at the community level.   Dan Seguin  25:02 Okay, now, what were some of the biggest takeaways from your project? Monica? Were you surprised by any of the data?   Monica Gattinger  25:09 Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I probably go back to the local versus global impacts piece, I think that is a circle, we're gonna have to figure out how to square for lack of a better a better metaphor here going forward, because many of the projects that we're going to need in the years ahead in terms of emissions reductions, they are going to have local environmental impacts. You know, and it doesn't take long to think about examples of that, right. So think about mining for critical minerals, think about transmission infrastructure, think I mean, on and on and on. And so thinking through how do we, you know, be respectful of local communities ensure we've got processes in place that that they can have faith in and ensure that local environmental impacts are mitigated in a meaningful fashion? And frankly, no has to be an option sometimes, right? There are some projects that have to receive a no of all projects are greenlighted, that puts the entire system into question in people's minds.   Dan Seguin  26:15 Okay, Monica, your second research phase just concluded Canada's energy future in an age of climate change. What challenges and opportunities were you focused on? And what did you uncover?   Monica Gattinger  26:28 That's a big question, Dan. So maybe just a couple of things I'll point to. The first is to say that, you know, for that particular project, because it was or that phase because it got underway at a time where there was quite a lot of fractiousness between the federal and provincial governments. We took on the topic of polarization, in that phase of the research to try to understand, you know, just how polarized are we, when it comes to energy and climate issues? And, and the, you know, the, the, the fortunate answer was that we're not as polarized as we might think, on some of these issues. So those areas where, you know, people's opinions are truly at opposite ends of a spectrum, they've got their heels dug in, the opinions are very hardened and crystallized, they're not willing to move, you know, there's, those are very few and far between a lot more of the division that we see back to that word division that we talked about earlier, Dan, it so those are opinions that are maybe a little bit more malleable to change, where you can potentially bring people together and have a constructive, constructive conversation to move things forward. So that the polarization, the polarization work, I think was really important to try to, you know, shine a light empirically on just how polarized are we, one thing that did come out of that work, though, that I think is really important to note is that a lot of the polarization that we see is along partisan lines. And so it's really important to have and create non-partisan forums for people to come together because partisan polarization on energy and climate issues can be quite challenging. So we looked at polarization, we also looked at, we continued our work around sort of roles and responsibilities of different government authorities in energy and climate decision making, we did a really big project around energy regulators with, you know, again, thinking about how important they are going to be in the future when it comes to energy project proposals and evaluating energy project proposals. And I think, you know, what came out of that work is just the importance of creating regulatory frameworks that are functional, right, they're going to enable us to get to a decision. But that is adaptable. You know, we know there are going to be new energy sources, new technologies we're going to need to be adapting our frameworks over time. And that are, you know, absolutely this crucial element and of legitimate that they are that people have confidence in those decision making processes. But it's not just about regulators. It's also about the broader policy context within which they work, you know, the need for regulatory agencies to be operating in the context of clear policy frameworks. You know, for there to be a good understanding between policymakers and regulators they have their respective roles when it comes to things like energy project, energy project approvals. The third area that we focused on in this most recent phase of research was models of and limits to consensus building, right. So if we do have division, how do we try to foster consensus and we recognize we're not going to get to you know, everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya there. This is politics, there will be, there will be divisions. But we did a lot of work on this whole concept of what are some of the models that can be utilized to foster consensus? What are some of the limits to those models? And the sort of bottom line of that research is that progress is possible when it comes to consensus building, but it's not easy. It's a hard one, it takes time, it takes a lot of thoughtful preparation and care to put in place processes that will drive towards positive outcomes.   Dan Seguin  30:32 Okay. Now, there were five case studies that came out of this phase intended to identify what works when it comes to public confidence in decision making. What are some of the highlights?   Monica Gattinger  30:44 Yeah, and this kind of picks up on the question of consensus building and models of and limits to consensus building. So we undertook a number of case studies of different initiatives that have been tried in Canada to try to foster consensus. So we looked, for example, at the Alberta climate leadership plan, we looked at the Eco fiscal commission, we looked at the National roundtable on the environment of the economy, we looked at the just transition Task Force on the coal fired power phase out. So this was a mixture of federal provincial, government, non government, current past initiatives. And there are a few things that I point to that, you know, came out of that work. The first is that there are no silver bullets. I mean, Boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were easy answers to these really tough questions, but there are not easy answers to these really tough questions. They, you know, it really is important to, to have kind of a multi pronged approach. And more than one approach, there isn't going to be one single initiative that's going to solve all of these challenges. But process matters process really matters. So who is involved? How are decisions taken? You know, is the process seen as legitimate? That's really, you know, absolutely the place to start with any of these processes around consensus building. Again, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right. So you can have in place a process that is designed to, you know, bring forward recommendations to the government on policy. But if people don't have trust in the information that's produced by that initiative, you've got a problem, right? So I think the Eco fiscal commission was really interesting in that, in that case, because it brought together an advisory board, that included representation from a variety of different political parties, the aim being to see if these folks can come together, and you know, work together and have confidence in this process, then others are more likely to have confidence in the information that's produced on the studies that are produced by by in that case, the ecofiscal, commission, there are a lot of relationships between different processes. So for example, you know, if you think about the development of a carbon price in Canada, you know, yes, that's where the Eco fiscal commission was focusing a lot of its efforts. But the Alberta climate leadership plan, in part paved the way towards the development of a federal price on carbon, because of the work that was done in the province to put in place a carbon pricing a carbon pricing scheme. And then the final thing, and this isn't something that people always like to hear, unfortunately, is that building consensus takes time. And it's something that is, as we know, in the current context with, you know, with climate change is something that we don't necessarily have the luxury of having. So it's how do you sort of hold those two things in your hand at the same time, and I often use the example of a carbon tax, having a carbon tax in Canada is a massive achievement for the country. But it took probably a decade or more to get there. And that's only one small in the big scheme of things policy tool. So you know, no silver bullets. It takes time, but it is possible. So progress is possible, but it's hard won.   Dan Seguin  34:12 Okay, now, this was fascinating. Monica, you identified two realities of energy and environmental leaders in Canada, when it comes to Canada's energy transition. Maybe you can unpack that for us just a bit more.   Monica Gattinger  34:29 Yeah, for sure. So this was a really, really neat study, one of the things that we found in our work, because we convene when we are, you know, very close to a lot of energy and environmental leaders. One of the things that we were finding is that this word transition could have elements to it that were kind of polarizing. And so for some folks, it was something that actually drove them away from our table rather than bringing them to our table. So being academics, we thought, well, let's do a study on this. What do people think transition is? What does it mean to them? Why are we running into these issues? And I have to credit our former Research Director, Dr. Marissa Beck, this was her idea, it was her study, she did an absolutely tremendous job. So she went out there and spoke with over 40 energy and environmental leaders across the country. And, and what, you know, what emerged from that work was that there were really two different realities that people inhabited, either, you know, sort of in whole, or in part, when it comes to transition. And we didn't name the realities, we just stated them, you know, in a very, in a very sort of fact based way. And they differed in terms of scope, and pace of change. And, you know, so in one of the realities, you know, the, the idea is that we're going to have a more measured pace of change, it's going to be driven by market developments, some policy developments, we're going to in the future have, you know, a diverse energy portfolio that's going to include, you know, a variety of different energy sources, yes, in different proportions than we currently have them. But you know, that oil and gas, for instance, is going to be a part of the future. So that's sort of one reality, the other reality grounded in a much more, you know, ambitious, rapid, need for change, quickly grounded in science, much stronger role for government in terms of setting out the policy framework, much greater attention to the need to, notably to phase down oil and gas and in particular oil. And so you can imagine if you've got folks inhabiting these different realities, it is difficult for them to come together, because they're often talking past. They're often talking past one another. And, and so we didn't necessarily have any solutions for this proposed in that particular, in that particular study. I think our work really does try to do some convening around those issues. But what it really did in this particular study resonated so well, with folks in the Energy and Environment communities, we had people saying, like you just nailed it. Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. And so you would have folks say, you know, well, the reality is, or we just need an honest conversation. But what the reality meant to them, what an honest conversation would mean to them was, was something completely different than folks inhabiting the other reality. And so these are the kinds of challenges, you know, Dan, that we, we hope to shed light on with our work. And we also hope to also address the research and convening as well.   Dan Seguin  37:50 Now, your third phase has just begun. What can you tell us so far, about strengthening public confidence on the road to net zero and the areas you're looking to cover in your research over the next several years?   Monica Gattinger  38:07 Yeah, no, that's a great opportunity to share this with you, Dan. Thanks. Thanks so much. So yeah, I mean, if our first phase was focused on public confidence, and kind of the here and now, second phase was Canada's energy future in an age of climate change, this phase is the longest term, longest term phase yet in terms of looking at net zero. And looking at 2050. We've got four areas that we're focusing in on in terms of this research, that really build in many ways on the work that we've done to date, we've been talking so far data about the importance of regulation, and having energy project decision making systems that are going to foster and support the kind of change to our energy systems that we're going to need. That's a big, a big area for us, one of the areas as well, that we're going to start to be getting into an in a more meaningful way, is downstream regulation as well, because with the, you know, with the growing attention to electrification, this is going to mean, you know, greater focus to what are our regulatory frameworks for energy delivery, whether it's in power markets, or in gas markets. And we think that there's, there's something that we will have to offer there as well, in terms of our work. So that's on the regulatory front. Another topic that for us, we think is really important is this whole question of energy security. And by that, you know, again, this isn't just about what's happening in global energy markets, it's what's happening domestically as well in terms of the need of the need to have reliable and affordable energy to ensure that we don't, you know, take one step forward and then two steps back on emissions reductions. So it's really very much about solving for Yes, emissions reductions and affordable reliable energy simultaneously, which in our observation is something that you know, has has not always been on the radar of policymakers, I think the energy system has just done such a great job of providing reliable, affordable energy that it's not always thought about. And yet, you know, if we're going to be transforming our energy systems, it better be front and center. Or we could really run into some challenges in terms of public confidence on the road ahead. The third area we're zeroing in on is intergovernmental collaboration. We are a federation, we are a federation with increasing roles and authority for indigenous governments, as well. So it's really about how do we make sure we've got good collaboration between federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous and municipal governments on the road ahead. And again, it's that kind of collaboration, collaboration piece. And then finally, we're going to continue with the public opinion survey research. And that work generally aims to support the other streams of research. So we're asking questions that relate to some of the broader work that we're doing. Cool. Okay.   Dan Seguin  41:07 I know you're going to tell me it's early Monica, but based on what the data and public service have shown over these many years, is Net Zero. resonating with people?   Monica Gattinger  41:19 Well, interestingly, so last June, we held a conference to mark the, you know, the conclusion of phase two and the launch of phase three. And we did some public opinion survey research going into that conference, including some questions around net zero. So we asked people if they had heard about net zero. And then we asked them, you know, the dreaded open ended question, and what does it mean to you? So it's one thing to have heard about, it's another thing to, you know, be asked to define it. And I was really surprised at like, the majority, like a strong majority of people had heard of net zero. And when asked to define it provided a definition that was pretty on target. So people, you know, I don't know if that means it's resonating with people. But they have definitely absorbed that this concept, and that this is something that, you know, is in policymakers is in policymakers minds. I think the other thing I would note, though, is you know, there's netzero, and then there's just emissions reductions writ large, the work that we've done around Canadian support for emissions reductions, climate change, policy, etc, shows just time and again, Canadians want to see this, they want to see emissions reductions, they want to see it done in a balanced way back to the pragmatic response I was giving earlier. But they're definitely, definitely committed to that.   Dan Seguin  42:43 Okay, now, when do you expect your first publication will be shared?   Monica Gattinger  42:47 So we've got our quarterly public opinion surveys that come out every few months. We actually have some, we're just finalizing a study right now that will be published very, very shortly. In terms of the research publications, we've got two underway right now, that should be published within the next number of months. One is looking at regulation for project decision making, and in particular, this whole question of timelines. So if you talk with folks, you know, in industry and in government, right now, they'll say, Well, we got to build all this stuff. But can we build it fast enough? And so that's actually the title of the project? Can we build it out fast enough? And we're focusing on what are some of the issues when it comes to regulatory frameworks for project decision making. So that's one study that should be coming out within the next few months. And then a second one, it's republication of a study that we completed for the Canadian Gas Association, electricity Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but this time last year, which was looking at regulation of energy delivery systems and power and gas markets, you're looking at international case studies to try to identify like, how are other countries grappling with the challenges of netzero in their power and gas markets. So we're going to be updating and republishing that study. We're in the process of doing that right now, that should be coming out in the next few months. And the case studies that we're looking at in that research are Western Australia, the United Kingdom, which as you might imagine, is a very interesting case study given the challenges that they've had on their power and gas markets. And New York State.   Dan Seguin  44:25 Just wondering here, is there anything you can tell us about your appointment to the province's New Energy Transition panel, its objectives and how you feel this could move the energy conversation forward in Ontario.   Monica Gattinger  44:39 Thanks for the question. I mean, I'm, you know, let's be honest, I'm an energy geek. And so it is just an unbelievable honor to have been appointed to the panel. This for me, is a dream appointment. I'm just so so so enthused about it. I'm not going to be able to speak on behalf of the panel. It's too Early in our work, but I will just share, you know, in my personal capacity now that I think the panel does have the capacity or the potential to be really quite important to the province's energy future. So if you think about, you know, the research that we've been doing at positive energy, the importance of informed decision making on the part of governments to recognize all of the strengths, limitations, consequences, intended or otherwise, of their decisions on energy and climate. So the panel, I think, has a great opportunity to help inform decision making. But as I've said, on a couple of occasions, today, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right process matters. And, you know, the panel, again, has the potential to be a very important process in terms of its engagement, and meaningful engagement with stakeholders, with indigenous partners, with all those who are interested in the province's energy future. So, you know, a couple of just additional things I would say. One is that the panel's focus in its mandate on long term energy planning, I think, I think is very important, because we're gonna need to plan and think through the long term more than we ever have before in terms of our energy systems when it comes to emissions reductions. I think the other thing, you know, I would lastly, but not leastly, I would recognize, you know, the importance of affordability and reliability. You know, yes, undertaking emissions reductions, but ensuring it's done in a reliable and affordable way. That enables, you know, economic competitiveness and the like. And that's something that, you know, that this government, the Ontario government, brings to the table, which I think is extremely important and will be crucial for the future.   Dan Seguin  46:53 Okay, Monica. Now, if you could speak to everyone in Canada, what would you want people to know, that you think is not widely known? Or understood?   Monica Gattinger  47:06 Yeah, there are a few things I would point to there. I think one would be the scale of the transformation that we're contemplating with netzero. I mean, if you take electrification, just as an example, you know, about only about 20% of and use energy, I mean, I'm telling you this, Dan, you know, all this stuff, but only about 20%. The venue's energy, you know, is currently accounted for by electricity. If we're looking to scale that up, you know, depending on what model you look at, but let's say you're looking to scale that up to you know, 80%, that's four times what it where it currently stands, this is a massive, massive transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. And I think that's one area where, you know, there isn't necessarily as much understanding as there could be in terms of the scale. Like, the second thing that I would love to get out there is that, you know, there's often a view that industry is, you know, dragging its heels, it's, you know, putting in place roadblocks, it's acting as a barrier. That's not what I see, in our engagements with folks in industry across the country, and a whole variety of different energy, different segments of the energy sector. Industry is there. What, you know, the real challenge now is kind of how do we move from the what, to the how, and foster an environment that will foster the kind of change that the companies are really looking to make. And then the third area that I would point to is reconciliation with indigenous peoples. We haven't spoken about that too much this morning. But that's one of the areas over the last number of years where there has just been such a fundamental change in the way industry, and indigenous communities and governments are working together. I think what we often see in you know, in the newspapers in the media is instances of conflict, you know, for obvious reasons, that's, that's, you know, what the media is going to be drawn to, but there are so many examples of just unbelievably constructive, meaningful partnerships between indigenous communities and industry. And I think that's something that you know, that that really is, is just a wonderful, wonderful change over the last few years.   Dan Seguin  49:24 Lastly, Monica, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I'm hoping you say you're ready.   Monica Gattinger  49:33 Okay, I'm ready. I'll do my best.    Monica Gattinger  49:36 Here we go.What are you reading right now?   Monica Gattinger  49:39 I am reading The Heart Goes Last by Margaret Atwood. You would think you know, during a global pandemic, you wouldn't read dystopian fiction, but that's what I'm doing. Terrific. Terrific book. by Margaret Atwood.   Dan Seguin  49:52 Okay, Monica, what would you name your boat? If you had one or maybe you do have one?   Monica Gattinger  49:58 I do not have one but if I did I think I would name it Smooth Sailing, because that's what I'd want to be doing when I was on my boat.    Dan Seguin  50:05 Okay, who is someone that you really admire?    Monica Gattinger  50:09 Oh, without question. My parents. You know, we've had some pretty tragic things happen in my family and they have, you know, continued to be positive soldier on, be great grandparents to my kids, I don't know how they do it, I admire them to the moon and back, as they say,   Dan Seguin  50:26 Okay, moving on, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witness?    Monica Gattinger  50:33 That's a tough one, I think I'd say I spent a lot of time outdoors. We have dogs. So I'm often out with the dogs, I ride horses. So I'm often out horseback riding anything in nature, there are so many magical moments where you see, you know, ways that animals are interacting with one another or things happening. Things happening in the, you know, in the plant environment and ecosystem that to me are just magical, and remind me of just how little we know about the world around us.   Dan Seguin  51:06 Okay, Monica, that's cool. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,   Monica Gattinger  51:13 My family has been extremely fortunate during the pandemic. So yeah, it feels almost kind of trite to talk about challenges. I think if there's one thing that I would point to, though, it's the last time it's the last time notably, in my family's case, between my sons and their grandparents. You know, my youngest son used to go to his grandparents house every day after school, they'd feed him snacks, he'd come home, that's gone. They've you know, they've they're missing him growing into a young man, that's, that's been really, really tough. I mean, it's a first world problem. I, you know, we really have been fortunate. But that last time is, unfortunately, and we're just not going to get that back.   Dan Seguin  51:58 Now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite shows are movie   Monica Gattinger  52:06 I could talk for hours about this. But if I had to just pick one, the whole Yellowstone series, I am just crazy for that series, you know, because I horseback ride anything that involves horses and ranches. And my own family history, you know, involves homesteading. Just that whole series Yellowstone 1883 1923. And he was talking about magic down the fact that all of that comes out of Taylor Sheridan's brain that fast I have, I don't understand at all. But I really enjoy watching it. That series is just phenomenal.   Dan Seguin  52:45 Lastly, Monica, what is exciting you about your industry right now.   Monica Gattinger  52:50 I think it's the people who are now on the let's roll up our sleeves face. And let's figure out how to know how to get this done. There's the waterfront of challenges seems endless, but the fact that that there's much more alignment among industry, government, civil society, you know, take your pick indigenous organizations, etc, about ensuring that we're reducing emissions, and, you know, the desire to work together to figure out how, to me is really exciting.   Dan Seguin  53:20 Well, Monica, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect or find out more?   Monica Gattinger  53:35 We have a website that you will be welcomed to, to reach out to just type into Google "University of Ottawa positive energy" and it should pop up for you. People are welcome to reach out to me personally, you know, again, easy to find me on the Internet, email addresses and the like. I'd be happy to hear from people.   Dan Seguin  53:55 Again. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.   Monica Gattinger  53:59 This was great. Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate the opportunity.    Dan Seguin  54:03 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

What challenges and opportunities do Ottawa residents face as Canada moves towards net zero? In episode 114 of thinkenergy, host Dan Seguin chats with the former Mayor of Ottawa to find out. Jim Durrell is a distinguished personality, with an extensive career in sports, politics, and the energy sector. Listen as he shares his experience as Chair of Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc. since 2012, including recent changes to the electricity sector and his vision for the future of energy in Ottawa.   Related links   Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc.: https://powerasone.ca/  Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc. Board of Directors: https://powerasone.ca/about/board-of-directors/ To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets   ------------------------------ Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Those rollers me and welcome back. Our guest today is a distinguished personality, with an extensive and impressive career in sports, politics, and the energy sector. Jim Durrell, Former Mayor of Ottawa and Chair of the Board at Hydro Ottawa. Attended Acadia University at the age of 17, where he was the quarterback and CO captain of the Acadia Axman football team. He learned valuable lessons during this experience, which helped shape his future career. He has a passion for sports, and a commitment to bringing world class sporting events to Ottawa, including the 1988 Grey Cup game, and a triple A baseball franchise to the city. Jim served as the president of the Ottawa Senators, and has been inducted in the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame as a builder. We will talk to Jim about how these achievements prepared him for his role as a mayor and the many board positions he has held, including his current role as Chair of Hydro Ottawa. Jim will share with us the biggest changes he has seen in the electricity sector since he joined the board in 2012. And his vision for Ottawas energy future. So, here is today's big question for Jim. What are the greatest challenges and opportunities that Ottawa residents face in moving towards Net Zero? Jim, welcome to the show. I understand you went to Acadia University in Nova Scotia at the tender age of 17. While there you were the quarterback and CO captain of the Acadia Axman football team. What are some of the valuable lessons that this experience taught you?   Jim Durrell  02:32 I'd have to say that, and it's a generalization about football. Unlike a lot of other sports and basketball, you can be an unbelievable player and carry your whole team and do something. In football. It's very much a team effort. If your offensive line is in playing well, you get massacred as a quarterback you can't pass your running backs are hit. So unlike other sports as well, you can't really talk to the referees, if you say so much as boo to them the wrong way, your entire team is penalized. So it was a wonderful lesson in teamwork, in understanding the value of teamwork. And at the same time recognizing that you couldn't -within the rules of the game - there's some leeway, but it's not just about you.   Dan Seguin  03:24 It's clear to say that you have a love for sports, and your commitment to bringing world class sporting events to Ottawa is unsurpassed. I mean, you served as president of the Ottawa Senators, you secure the 1988 Grey Cup game for Ottawa, you delivered a triple A baseball franchise to the city. On top of this, you have served as a governor for Canada Sports Hall of Fame and have been inducted as a builder in the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame. So I have to ask you this. How did these achievements prepare you for your role as a mayor, and for many board positions that you have held through the years, including serving as chair for hydro Ottawa?   Jim Durrell  04:14 I include sport in the entertainment world. So when I look at the four cornerstones of a great city, and I believe Ottawa is a great city, one is education. One is health care. One is your economy. And the fourth one is and - in no particular order- is sports and entertainment. And it's like a chair, and when you've got the four legs of the chair all sitting there then you've got the makings of a great chair. Okay. And the bottom line is that young people today, the world is far bigger than sitting in your office, working all day and I've done that for my entire life but the world- is people need to be entertained. There's a life of inside the office, there is a life that you can enjoy with friends and with family. And sport does that, and you know, as a young man growing up in Montreal, John Beliveau was my hero, the Canadians. And young people have to have these heroes. One of the issues that I always found was when you came to Ottawa, certainly before we brought the NHL here is that all our heroes were from other cities. Well, now, it's not the case. So you can have a CFL hero, you can have an NHL hero. And these things are very important to me, for young men and women that they have models to look up to and grow.   Dan Seguin  05:41 Okay, cool. Now, what were some of the key learnings as a mayor that you were able to transfer to your role at Hydro Ottawa? And what were some of the key differences?   Jim Durrell  05:56 You know, when you're mayor of the capital city of Canada, it's a job that no matter how many years you spend, training, it's a whole different world. And you recognize, I guess, I'll go back and just say, in our personal lives, we choose our friends, we choose what we want to do and when we want to do it. When you're mayor, you see the underbelly of a city, you see the great, you see the challenges, you see the toughness, and it all gets thrown on you on a daily basis. And, and I don't mean that negatively, I mean it from a learning perspective, because you walk out of that job, with a far bigger view and vision of, of how the world really, really works. And so when I came to Hydro, it was it's interesting, because we're very much a private company, but we're even more a public company, and the expectations of the public at large, and our shareholder, which is City Council. Now, I'm very fortunate, having spent all the years that I did at the city, I understand how Council works, and I understand what's important to the individual Councillors and, and the Mayor. And so that has been an asset for me to be able to move through those minefields and call them whatever you want. But the bigger picture is, I never forgot how important our customers were. And our customers were the citizens of Ottawa. And that's our regional debt. That's why we're here.   Dan Seguin  07:48 Jim, you have served on the Hydro Ottawa board since July 2012. What is the biggest change you've seen in Hydro Ottawa since?   Jim Durrell  08:01 That's a good question. And when I became chairman, Hydro, Ottawa was a very highly, highly regulated business. And by a regulated business, we just mailed out the bills, people paid the bills, and we provided energy to their homes. As time has gone on, and we see this all everywhere - fridges, stoves, air conditioners, everything is much, much more efficient. So when you look at the consumption level, per house, and per business, it's dropped substantially. Now, people would argue, and why are my hydro rates going up? Because it's a regulated business, and we're basically controlled by the province. It's really the reality of life. To succeed and grow, then we had to move into other fields. So in 2012 95% of our net income basically, came from the regulated business. Today, it's 67%. And that change, that movement away, has been largely through green energy. And then there are things that we can control in our future. We're the boss, and it allows us, and I look at Chaudiere, you know, the Falls and the energy. We're the largest municipally owned run-of-the-water in Ontario right now. That's the biggest change that we've really gravitated from a regulated business to an exciting, expanding, growing and financially successful business.   Dan Seguin  09:42 Okay, now, I know you love a challenge. So what project or moment during your tener as Board Chair for Hydro Ottawa, do you consider to have been the most challenging?   Jim Durrell  09:54 The biggest thing I would say is, it gets a little complicated, so I'll try and keep it at a high level. We pay every year a dividend to the city, they're our shareholder, they expect the dividend. We always borrowed money- I won't get into financial structures because it's a strange animal created by the province. But we were borrowing money to pay the city a dividend, which just drove us further and further in debt all the time. And our free cash flow, which is what you should pay dividends out was diminished, or non existent by changing to an unregulated business, which is what we're doing now. The unregulated business doesn't pay the dividend, we made that fundamental governance change. So we pay a dividend out of Hydro Ottawa Limited, but all our other Portege power in very all of our other businesses, we keep that cash and those profits. So basically, long term means that we won't be borrowing to pay dividends to the city, that it was the largest fundamental change that we made.   Dan Seguin  11:03 If you could take out your crystal ball and forecast the future. What do you see in Ottawa's energy future?   Jim Durrell  11:11 For all of the talk that goes on about climate change and efficiencies, very little, frankly, is ever done. I mean, solar has just barely scratched the surface here. Wind is, you know, even less so and only in certain areas. So we've got an enormous number of buildings, federal, and municipal, that are older buildings, very poorly constructed for today's modern energy desires. And there has to be a big infrastructure. You can talk all day long about cars and efficiencies there. The hidden energy that's used by all of these older infrastructures is staggering. And nobody talks about it. Like quite frankly, so they spend their time worrying about an electric vehicle. And those are largely highly visible. And it's not that they're not important. The fact of the matter is, there's an enormous other number of areas that have to be changed. And those changes cost money. I look at the amount of money they created first, Atlantis and for this plant  and in St. Thomas, as well. And, you know, for Volkswagen. And those are all lovely things and but when I look at money that could really be reinvested properly, and, and have a profound impact in our city. It's fixing that infrastructure. It really is.   Dan Seguin  12:45 What, in your opinion, are some of the greatest challenges that we are facing as a community moving toward a net zero economy?   Jim Durrell  12:56 It's understanding what is net zero. It's now thrown around so casually, and, and everybody jumps right away and focuses on electric vehicles. Well, that's how we're going to do it. And they focus on, we're going to do more wind and solar. The counterbalance is a huge movement out there to cancel natural gas, which is, quite frankly, still highly energy efficient. And you have to, as you gravitate to net zero, it has to be financially affordable for people, it's fine for elites, and it's fine for people who've got lots of money to say we're all going to do this. There's a staggering number of people who live in this city that live hand to mouth, and they need energy, just like the elites need energy. And I use that word and I sounds in such a disparaging way, but they make most of the decisions. So as you move to net zero, you have to do it in an affordable, practical way. City Council passed a motion to cancel natural gas. Do you know what that would mean? Imagine trying to go to your house now. You have no natural gas and you're going to have electricity. Instead of paying a couple of 100 bucks a month, you're going to be paying 1000s What people can't afford that this is just you know, it's lovely, but it's quite frankly, nonsense. At some point in time. It's a nice thing to do. My granddaughter is your very typical 16 year old idealist. She is smart, engaged, a just adore and she's all on climate all the time, Grandpa, you're good in this net. And as I always said to her, Your grandpa totally agrees with you, dear. It's just that you have to move there in a responsible fashion and if you don't, you're going to hurt a tremendous number of people in the process. So the bottom line for me is most of these net zero goals are overly ambitious, there's no real plan to do them, you know whether it's federally provincially, everybody just is talking about it. And the goals are admirable, but it's got to be a goal that is achievable. I have for how many years now I watch the federal government say, you know, we're going to cut our carbon emissions, and every year they go up, what the hell's the use of all this planning, or whatever they call it? And nobody says anything about it.   Dan Seguin  15:29 You're gonna kill me, but I've got a follow up question here. Now, I'll flip that question. What, in your opinion, Jim, are the greatest opportunities that we have as a community in moving toward achieving net zero?   Jim Durrell  15:42 People understanding what Net Zero is. Really understanding and what they have to do themselves to try and get there. It's only a collective buying in, in my estimation, by the public at large. That's really ever going to move this. I'll go back to electric vehicles. There aren't enough charging stations around anywhere to handle it.  Snd everybody is "Oh, yeah. And in five years, it'll be only electric vehicles." No, there won't. In 10 years, we'll know there won't. I'm not even sure in 15 years. Because the infrastructure isn't there to support it. So though, there's something that I think can really happen, and happen properly. We're trying to gravitate to all of our vehicles being electric, here at Hydro Ottawa, and we can't get the vehicles. Oh, that's such a lovely goal. But they're not building them. And so this is the reality and if people have to really understand, and it's not the Prime Minister going out with some dribble or gravel and saying these are all the things of the Minister of the Environment, I don't mean to be disrespectful. But the bottom line is, it's all window dressing, there's nothing really honestly substantive there that affects you and me on a daily basis. We pay more than a carbon tax, and I got a check the other day, I mean, what I got the check for, and I'd find it with some reimbursement. Well, that's all window dressing. There's more cars on the road today than there ever was. And all it does is hurt the little guy who can't afford this stuff, you know. So the opportunities are enormous. They're far reaching. But they can only be achieved when people understand it. In its simplest equation, it's I want to lose 30 pounds by next year. Okay, well, that's a wonderful thing. Well, how are you going to do it? Well, these are the things I'm going to do. Okay, so in next month, what will you have lost? Well, if I do all this, I should have lost four pounds and you move it through and there's your 30. I don't see any of that happening, frankly. So there's a real opportunities there. It's moving again, from window dressing to substantive action that's meaningful.   Dan Seguin  18:11 You've had a very storied and accomplished life, Jim. So which is singular achievement in this wonderful life so far, are you most proud of?   Jim Durrell  18:23 Well, without leaving your family out, because I think that's unnatural, I would have to say Receiving the Order of Canada, which is the highest honor a civilian or a citizen can get to be recognized by your country. And I still I have my snowflake on my jacket as we speak here today. That was something going to Rideau Hall and having the Governor General talk about your accomplishments. And it was something that has left a lasting impression. It keeps you enormously humble, and I hope it'll have a great impact on my grandchildren and how they know they can make this country a better place.   Dan Seguin  19:15 What is the one singular thing in your opinion that Ottawa residents most need to know about the work we do at Hydro Ottawa, that they may not already know?   Jim Durrell  19:30 Our reliability, and every every single month, we look at two things. The acronyms are sadie and safety, but it's the number of outages and the frequency of time. We are best in class and have been for a number of years compared to other comparable energy utilities. And we take hydro for granted. If you do just wake up and flick a light and you just go, and you start to open your fridge. And all of these things are just, we don't even give a second thought to them, except when they don't work all of a sudden. And then it's like, well, what the hell is going on here? Why is this off? And hydro is probably-  not because I'm Chairman - that it won't be for long. It's the best value for money in all of the bills that we pay. It really is. I mean, when I think of the life style that it provides citizens on a day to day basis for what you pay. It's a great deal.   Dan Seguin  20:43 And finally, Sir, after your retirement as Board Chair in June, where are we next likely to see Jim Durrell? On the golf course at Augusta or celebrating with a Stanley Cup over your shoulders?   Jim Durrell  21:00 Boy, I'll tell you, I thought we were gonna win the cup. Had we had goaltending, we would have won it back in '08. But you know, I've always been active. It's keeps me young mentally. And so I have been very blessed. I have a great group of friends who are equally active. So we play tennis, we play golf. And I'll always care about the community, I mentor a number of young people, I'll continue to do that. I find that very personally fulfilling to pay it forward with young people. So it'll be a lot of that. You know, frankly, with the committees, and all of the boards I've chaired. I'm coming up to 77, the torch has been passed. My wife always says you're gonna go crazy. Oh, no, I won't cook because I've in my life built a tremendous group of friends and associates, most of whom have been very accomplished. And we have discussion groups, and we talk about things. So mentally, I stay challenged. Physically, I stay challenged. And I'm blessed to have a great family and I just love life.   Dan Seguin  22:20 Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?   Jim Durrell  22:27  Sure.   Dan Seguin  22:28 Okay, sir. What are you reading right now?   Jim Durrell  22:31 I just finished the book. It was the prequel to Pillars of the Earth. So it was very good. I'm also a big John Grissom fan, I have to say. Largely because he does really fascinating stories, but there's always history lessons. He's like Leon Uris used to be, you know, when he was writing that you have a lots of factual history. And around it, they put in the adventure in the story.   Dan Seguin  23:00 The next one is always interesting. What would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?   Jim Durrell  23:08 I have one and I call it "The First Lady."   Dan Seguin  23:10 Who is someone that you truly admire?   Jim Durrell  23:14 I admire so many people. I'm trying to move away out of out of family and oh, it's a rapid fire question. So I know so many accomplished people and I admire. I don't know if there's any one person in particular that I would pick out of, you know, other than within family, honestly.   Dan Seguin  23:32 Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Jim Durrell  23:38 The birth of a child.   Dan Seguin  23:40 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Jim Durrell  23:46 It was staying socially active. I'm a very social animal. And so I refused to have the pandemic control my life. I got all my shots when I should get them. I follow the rules, but I stayed fairly socially active.   Dan Seguin  24:06 Now. We've all been guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?   Jim Durrell  24:16 Yeah, I really enjoyed the Bridgerton I enjoyed Succession. I'm into Yellowstone now. But frankly, I I hardly, it's not a sporting event that I'm interested. I watch very little TV. I just find TV today is not very good. And I'm busy. I'll watch a movie every now and again but doesn't control my life.   Dan Seguin  24:42 Lastly, Jim, what's exciting you about the energy sector right now?   Jim Durrell  24:48 Not a lot. I hate to say this, because I'm a glass half full guy. When I look at the competency of our Senior Management. I'm going to take that question internally. When I see the men and women that are running Hydro Ottawa today, that makes me excited. It gives me confidence. And it's not BS. Our executive team is a highly competent, a group of men and women who really give a damn. And I think do an extremely good job.   Dan Seguin  25:27 Well, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Jim Durrell  25:39 A pleasure, I enjoyed it.   Dan Seguin  25:41 Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests are previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

The electrification of vehicles has been top of mind for not only personal use, but also commercial. What does transitioning traditionally fossil fuel-powered engines—like delivery trucks, buses, and taxis—over to electric power look like, and why are cities pushing for this change? In today’s episode, we speak with Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions to discuss the environmental and economic benefits of fleet electrification.   Related links:  Jim Pegg, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-pegg-4b588b17/ Envari, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/envari/ Envari website: https://envari.com/   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook Keep up with the Tweets    Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today we're moving into the fast lane and talking about converting vehicles that are used for commercial purposes, such as delivery trucks, buses, and taxis away from traditional fossil fuel powered engines to electric power. That's right. We're learning about fleet electrification. So start your electric engines, they're so quiet, and fasten your seat belt because we have a great guest to explore more about this topic. So why are cities greening their fleet. Not only does this shift help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but it also packs a punch in the fight against climate change. The transportation sector is one of the largest contributors of GHG emissions accounting for more than 20% of global emissions. The shift towards EVs, electric vehicles in commercial fleets can significantly reduce these emissions. In fact, the City of Ottawa finds to have an entirely zero emission bus fleet by 2036. While fleet electrification is still in its early stages, it has the potential to play a crucial role in helping Canada reach its 2050 netzero targets, especially as demand speeds up. So here's today's big question: In addition to producing fewer life cycle emissions than traditional vehicles, what are the economic benefits of fleet owners and operators? So buckle up friends today, we have Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Product and Services at Envari Energy Solutions, here to talk to us about the new Star Fleet. Jim, it's a pleasure to have you on our show again. Now, we've been hearing a lot about electrification of vehicles. It's no secret that the government has set some ambitious goals, like the mandate for all new passenger vehicles and light duty trucks to be zero emissions by 2035. But here's what I'm curious about. Jim, what's the scoop when it comes to fleet? I'm talking about city buses, school buses, delivery vehicles and the likes are organizations who manage fleets making that transition as well. And most importantly, why is this shift in the fleet industry so crucial?   Jim Pegg  03:08 Well, it's a great question. So let's say more and more municipalities and large fleet operators are making the transition to electric vehicles, or at least starting to seriously plan out the change. Municipalities are definitely early adopters transitioning to electric vehicles, starting with their late duty fleets. And of course, the big buses. Buses are a big contributor to GHG emissions. So it has a big impact on their pathway. And that zero plans, converting them to zero emission vehicles. You know, it's just a big part of that whole journey. School buses are an important fleet to talk about as well, we can all agree less diesel fumes for our kids, less fumes they breathe in each day that better. There's actually a few studies out there that talk about health benefits for kids switching to electric buses. So you know, light duty fleets, such as delivery fleets are also starting to make the switch. There's definitely more vehicle options available for light duty fleets right now, making it a great place to start and get comfortable with electric vehicles. And importantly, the charging infrastructure that goes with them. And see, you know, the big driver there right now is GHG reduction. So as a result, you know, government grants are out there to accelerate the transition. So it's a good time for any fleet operator to start looking at the change and planning out when it will make the most sense for them. Not only from an environmental point of view, but also from a cost perspective. The grants aren't going to be around forever. And I think that's a big part of the business cases. Right now. There are their savings as well going to electric vehicles. We all see the price of the pumps going up. And there's also operational savings that can be seen with electric vehicles. Bottom line, I'd say fleets produce a huge amount of GHG emissions, converting them to zero emission vehicles will have a tremendously positive impact with lower total cost of ownership. So it's a win-win at the end of the day, the trick is making sure that EVs will meet your fleet's needs. And that's, that's a big part of the questions out there right now.   Dan Seguin  05:07 Now, with all of the benefits described, it sounds like a no brainer to make the transition to an electric fleet. So what's the catch? What are some of the actual challenges that municipalities and businesses are grappling with when it comes to electrifying their fleet vehicles?   Jim Pegg  05:27 Well, with any big change, there's always challenges. In this case, there are a few but with good planning, they are manageable. I'd say, you know, basic conversations we have typically there's seven or so key things that you need to consider. If I were to go through those, I'll try to be brief. But you know, let's start with cost. So electric vehicles, in most cases, do cost more initially. That is why understanding the total cost of ownership is important. Comparing things like maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle, energy cost, gas or diesel versus electricity. Understanding your current costs, versus what they will look like, is important to help justify that increased initial investment. Next up, I'd say vehicle availability. Is there an EV that is comparable to the vehicles that the fleets are using now that will provide the same or better operational functionality? At the end of the day, fleet operators need a solution that allows them to continue successful operation of their fleet, which takes us to the next point, EV charging with EVs. You need to think about how your charging infrastructures are going to work, work physically, do you have the capacity? What charging strategy will you use understanding when you can charge disrupting your operational needs, the cost of EV infrastructure is an important consideration. You know, many fleet operators will need to increase their electricity capacity from their utility. But this needs to be carefully planned, capacity upgrades evolve assets that last 40, 50 and sometimes 60 years. The last thing you want to do is make an investment only to find out you didn't install enough capacity for future projects like building GHG reduction projects, or that you oversize your new service and wasted money at the start. The good news is there are, you know, well thought out ways to approach these problems, proven steps to take you know, those were things to consider and strategies to allow for a phased approach to converting movies. The truth is I could go on for a while on this specific topic. But let's just say, you know, I'd highly recommend any fleet operator out there to talk to someone that does this every day that has an eye for the full picture, not just the EV power needs. But experience will be helpful on this topic. You will learn about things like preconditioning or vehicles in winter and to increase your range and winter for example. So from there, I'd say let's talk about range anxiety. It's another other piece that people think about, and this is a big one. The last thing fleet operators want us to have is vehicles stranded with no power. This is another good reason that the planning stage is so important. Looking at your fleets usage, dwell times, best case and worst case scenarios like winter operation when range is reduced. Modeling your fleet's usage is an important part of the planning process. Bus fleets are a great example of routes, or overall distance traveled in a day that can be somewhat managed and evaluated at the same time. Working to consider changes in fleet needs also important fleets and their usage patterns change every year. And they will, you know for many years to come. Some very good news is there are more and more chargers being installed around the country. This won't replace the need for fleets to have their own chargers, but it will help with some of the fleets that have more unpredictable usage patterns. You know, at the end of the day, let's face it, you have to get to where the work is. So there's lots of things to think about there. Next up, I'd say there's energy cost and reliability, you know, so switching from gas or diesel to electricity means you'll become dependent on your local utility providing electricity in a reliable way. That's why it's so important to connect with your local utility or have a partner that can do that on your behalf. Other strategies such as, you know, on site battery storage, which is great to support cost management, but it may not be the solution for you know, critical fleet reliability, because you know, batteries have very short duration output to them. So onsite power generation may come into play. Again, many things to consider that all work together and understanding your new electricity bill is what's going to look like and ways to reduce those costs will become an ongoing operational need. Having a good energy advisor will support this need and could save fleet operators a significant amount of money. And let's not forget the various grants and funding streams available. Two more that I'd want to touch on would be - maintenance and tooling. EVs require less overall maintenance. But some different expertise might be required. So training staff in a timely manner on how to maintain your fleet, if you do the maintenance in house is an important transition piece, right. Most importantly, how maintenance can be done safely. Electricity can be seen, but proper steps need to be taken to ensure safety. With any new technology or anything related to electricity, safety has always got to be top of mind. And that's a big piece of operators need to make sure they're thinking about depending on the size of their fleet and, and what's going to have to go in the planning around safety to make sure people go home safely at the end of the day. The last thing I think I've talked about I'd say is driver training. Driving an EV, and knowing how to manage your power usage can have a big impact on the success of your fleet. So knowing how to take advantage of regenerative braking, understanding the impacts, they have features such as heating, cooling of your battery, your battery life itself, hard accelerations versus smooth accelerations, I say simply put some of the simple lessons and training can have a really big impact on your fleet success. There's a lot of thought that goes into planning of fleet conversion to electric. But I say that is why experts you know, and maybe a little self plug here - such as Envari, can be relied upon to take on that transition and make that transition as smooth as possible. No two fleets are the same, but combining a fleet operator's knowledge of what they do with an organization that knows and understands electricity is a great way to start to change.   Dan Seguin  11:39 Jim, given these considerations, are there certain types of vehicles that are more suitable for electrification than others? And if so, why?   Jim Pegg  11:50 Well, I would say they're fleets that have vehicles ready now, for electrification. And I'd say there, there are fleets that are still a bit off in the future. You know, at the same time, converting a full fleet day one isn't always a great idea. Dipping a toe in the water sometimes works best. And parallel to that planning and working with a partner who understands the options out there listens to the fleet operators needs. And I can't stress that enough, you have to really take the time to understand the needs of the fleet and all their unique characteristics and understand how they use their fleets. That's a very important piece that needs to be a very collaborative approach. But you know, fleet operators are experts in how they run their fleet. And having someone that knows the electrical side of things is going to help them through those planning studies and implementations can make a really great recipe. Apart from that battery improvements are being developed, new Evie vehicles are on the way. And it won't be long before there are options out there for every fleet - big and small. But I'd say I'd say the vehicle selection, and that analysis is certainly a step that needs to be taken.   Dan Seguin  12:57 What is the current state of charging infrastructure for fleet vehicles? Is the technology there?   Jim Pegg  13:04 So yeah, so it's a charging technology has come a long way. You know, I can remember as far back as maybe 12 years ago installing so many chargers and and they've certainly come a long way since then. You know, the good news, too, is that they're constantly improving. I would say that the charging technology available today is in a good place to support fleet electrification. Options like parallel charging, AC charging DC charging, sequential charging, actually, for large overhead pantograph charging, which is often used on on bus fleets, there's a new standard that was just released that includes sequential charging for pantograph style chargers. And that's that's a big step in the right direction. And even talking about RFID tags, so I mean, the standards and so on are constantly evolving. And there are lots of different industry partners in that ecosystem, trying to make sure things get standardized because that benefits everyone at the end of the day. Bottom line, there are lots of charging options out there. The trick really is understanding which one will work best for your needs, and how to ensure it's flexible so that you can incorporate different chargers down the road. Being a technology agnostic organization, such as ourself [Envari] has really helped us find the best solution for specific applications. And to be clear, often there's a need for a mix of charger sizes and in a strategy behind you know, DC versus AC charging. Often with fleets, you want to rely a lot more on DC charging rather than relying on the rectification on the vehicle. DC does not have to mean big fast chargers people often think of level three, you know 100 kilowatt, 50 kilowatt chargers with DC chargers, you can get you know 24 kilowatt DC chargers there that are reliable and made by very reputable OEMs, so...   Dan Seguin  14:55 Being an EV owner myself, I can confirm that our cold Canadian winters pose certain challenges when it comes to battery life. Is this something to be aware of? And how can organizations mitigate any issues?   Jim Pegg  15:11 So I would say yes, it is true that the cold weather has an impact on batteries, you know, depending on where you are on the globe, there are different weather patterns and so on. But cold weather certainly has an impact on batteries, and the range needed of those batteries. Currently, there are a few ways to tackle this. One is something called preconditioning, meaning having your vehicle plugged in while it's warming up in the morning, and you can actually automate that to take place at a certain time. And it can help maintain the battery's range for that day. So that that can have a really big impact. The other factor, you know, is what we talked about a little bit earlier was a driver training. Simple things like understanding the impact of few degrees of heat can have or how people actually drive smooth versus hard accelerations.All those things have an impact on the range you get out of your battery. The good news is with upfront planning, these issues can be managed to a point where they're not issues at all, and if if more public chargers come along each year, the certainty around getting from point A to B, to C to D to E to F, and G o get stronger and stronger. There's also a lot of work going into battery technology itself that will help with cold climates as well as the speed at which batteries can be recharged without causing increased battery degradation. The risk right now is if you know fleets of vehicles are out there and they're constantly having to use fast chargers and higher power chargers on their vehicles on the smaller size fleets that can have a damaging impact on your battery life. But there's a lot of technology going into working on that. But again, with good planning and understanding of a fleets needs, there are certainly ways to plan around those issues.   Dan Seguin  16:56 We're all aware that electricity rates can vary based on the number of different factors such as time of day, the season, the customer class, etc. How can fleet operators effectively manage these fluctuations to optimize charging and minimize costs?   Jim Pegg  17:15 So you know, electricity rates are going to be a changing landscape over the coming years as, as I'd say, governments and regulators look for ways to encourage electrification, while at the same time managing infrastructure costs related to distributing power. So, you know, that said, we're also in a time of machine learning and in AI, meaning software is going to play a big part in optimizing charging schedules. There are some great organizations out there that specialize in this exact type of software, you know, pair that with the knowledge of the electricity rate structure in your area, and you can find some very effective ways to manage your electricity costs. The risk is also there, you know, if you do not plan for electricity costs and manage them on an ongoing basis, your cost could quickly increase versus an optimized scenario. You know, for example, in Ontario, there's something called global adjustment. And knowing how to manage your global adjustment costs will have a big impact on your electricity bill. Now, there's a balance. First, and most importantly, a fleet needs to operate as a fleet. So you know, a good partner will work with you to optimize your costs based on your fleet needs, and then work to educate and support fleet operators on what changes they could make to their fleet operations. That would result in some cost savings or significant cost savings. But with the changing landscape, it's something that has to be an ongoing effort for sure.   Dan Seguin  18:45 Okay, Jim, how do government policies and regulations impact the electrification of fleets?   Jim Pegg  18:53 Yeah, well, I guess I'd say there's a few ways one of the big ones is government noting that all vehicles sold as of a certain date and time will need to be zero emission vehicles, which means fleets will have to look at vehicles other than the gas and diesel options that they use now when as their fleets come to end of life. So as they're looking to replace their fleets, they're gonna have to think about what vehicles are actually going to be sold and available as they get to those different points in time. You know, the cost of electricity and distribution rates and rate design will have an impact on the total cost of ownership as we just talked about for EV fleets. You know, in other areas such as manufacturing, you know, different Import/Export policies, trade agreements with other countries, mining policies, all those different things can impact the production of EV vehicles. And, you know, right to its core, the availability of vehicles, which is obviously a big need.   Dan Seguin  19:50 Okay, sir, how about funding? Are there any incentive programs out there and how can they help those who might be considering like implication   Jim Pegg  20:01 There is funding out there right now for things such as charging infrastructure, and in some cases to support the cost delta between traditional vehicles and EVs. A couple of examples, I'd say we have the Zero Emission Transit Fund, which supports municipal bus fleet electrification, as well as school bus electrification. There's actually two parts to that one in particular, I believe it's up to 80% of the planning costs covered. And for your actual capital investments, I believe it's up to 50%, with some fairly high caps there. So there's quite a bit of funding available there. Another example would be the Canadian Infrastructure Bank is offering low interest loans to help with that initial upfront investment that's required. And we're seeing other various grant programs. There is NRCan, there's ZEVIP program which has had various phases to it as well to help support electric charging. So I mean, there's different programs coming out. And that is also a bit of an ongoing thing that we have to watch constantly and, and be ready for. And it can be a bit of a process to go through some of the applications. But once you understand the process, it becomes much simpler. And I mean, having someone to work with to do that with you, you can have a lot of success there. Each program has its own rules and requirements to apply. But I can say from firsthand experience, the funding is there. It is accessible, we've had great success, getting many of our customers some, some really great funding.   Dan Seguin  21:36 Okay, now, time to take out your crystal ball, Jim. What's the future of fleet electrification, and how do you see it evolving in the coming years?   Jim Pegg  21:49 Yeah, I mean, this is one that the engineering team and everyone loves to chat about while having the morning coffee. I think we'll see more and more advancement in battery technology. And I touched on that a bit earlier,  and the charging technology along with that, and more creative ways to leverage the stored energy of multiple vehicles connected at multiple locations. I really think there's going to be some sort of an overlay where we're really able to leverage all of these different, essentially battery packs, all over the place. And then on top of that, I think as we touched on earlier, more and more vehicle options and innovation and vehicles. And in some cases, people may have to think about reframing how they use their vehicles. And hopefully, it's always for the positive, right? At the end of the day, fleet operators need to be able to run their businesses, and then continue moving forward in a profitable way. So the technology needs to be there to support that, ultimately, to help with that transition.   Dan Seguin  22:51 Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Jim, are you ready?   Jim Pegg  23:00 Let's go for it.   Dan Seguin  23:01 Okay. What are you reading right now?   Jim Pegg  23:04 Spare by Prince Harry.   Dan Seguin  23:06 Jim, what would you name your boat? If you had one?   Jim Pegg  23:11 The Tin Can.   Dan Seguin  23:13 Now, who is someone that you admire?   Jim Pegg  23:17 To give a shout out here to my wife. She's an incredible spouse. She's a mother. She's a business owner, and she does it all! She does it very well.   Dan Seguin  23:26 That's cool. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Jim Pegg  23:34 Oh, I think there's real magic that happens out there every day. But I'm going to fall right into the birth of my son, I think will always be at the top of my list. Seeing that happen. That's magic.   Dan Seguin  23:48 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Jim Pegg  23:54 So on a personal level, I think it's probably something a lot of people can relate to that have young kids, I think it was a tough couple of years and keeping my son on track with, you know, sort of the progression of education, missing a couple of really crucial years in there was it was difficult, but happy to say we've got some awesome teachers in the school system here and he's just getting back on track. And I think that though it was a big challenge.   Dan Seguin  24:26 Okay, now, we've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?   Jim Pegg  24:35 Oh, anything Star Wars, anything Star Wars at all! I watch the whole series, you know, the Mandalorian? All of it. I love it all!   Dan Seguin  24:45 Lastly, Jim, what's exciting you about your industry right now?   Jim Pegg  24:50 Yeah, this is where I would geek out a little bit and say "what's not exciting?" Right now, you know, we're going through some major transitions. I'd say with the technology that we have, and on all the changes happening, there's collaboration like never before, really. Seeing new technology coming out constantly. It's an exciting time, I'd say to be an engineer, and to work with a team of engineers. And I have to say, I have the pleasure of working with the greatest group of engineers there is. Everyone from building mechanical lighting, electrical engineers, all the drive and passion for their work like no other group I've seen. I think it's just an exciting time.   Dan Seguin  25:28 Jim, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or the organization, how can they connect?   Jim Pegg  25:42 Yeah, well, thank you for having me, I'd say check out our website: envari.com. And just reach out through there and we're happy to reach out and have conversations. Always happy to discuss this topic and many more.   Dan Seguin  25:57 Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Jim Pegg  26:03 Absolutely. Always a pleasure.   Dan Seguin  26:05 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkingenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

Canada’s electric vehicle industry sparks interest, as the government aims at selling only zero-emission vehicles by 2035. It’s a chance to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and improve air quality, while also developing a sustainable electricity and transportation system. Canada has invested in EV manufacturing, infrastructure and batteries. But is it enough? Emma Jarratt, award-winning investigative journalist and the Executive Editor at Electric Autonomy Canada, weighs in on episode 112 of thinkenergy.     Related links   Emma Jarratt, Website: https://emmajarratt.wordpress.com/  Emma Jarratt, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-jarratt-ba552727/  Emma Jarratt, Twitter: https://twitter.com/Em_CRJ  Electric Autonomy Canada: https://electricautonomy.ca/ Project Arrow: https://projectarrow.ca/ To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets ----------------------- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Canada is on the brink of a transportation revolution, as it transitions to electric. With the goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and improving air quality, the Canadian government has set a target of selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035. This transition presents a number of challenges and opportunities. But there's one thing for certain it's an exciting time for Canada's electric vehicle industry. The demand for electric vehicles is growing exponentially in Canada, as more people are embracing the technology to reduce their carbon footprint and improve air quality. This has created a unique opportunity for automakers and entrepreneurs to bring new and innovative electric vehicle models and technology to market. Strides were made in 2022, which saw Canada's public charging installations grow by a whopping 30%. The government has committed to investing in public charging infrastructure, and private companies are also stepping up to meet the demand. The shift to electric mobility will no doubt transform Canada's energy sector, which will require a significant increase in electricity demand, and bring with it more renewable energy and innovation. Electric vehicles present an opportunity for Canada to develop a more resilient and sustainable electricity and transportation system, not to mention the untold economic benefits. So here's today's big question: There's been a lot of announcements in the past year about investments Canada is making in EV manufacturing, infrastructure, and critical minerals needed for batteries. Is it enough to make Canada a superpower in this space and meet its 2035 target? Joining us today is Emma Jarrett, an award winning investigative journalist with a focus on green energy, the electric transportation sector and politics. She worked for some of Canada's largest news outlets, including CTV, the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail. Currently, she's the executive director of Electric Autonomy Canada, Emma, so great to have you join us today. Emma, how did you first become interested in electric vehicles and clean energy? And what led you to your current role as the executive editor of electric autonomy Canada?   Emma Jarrett  03:07 So, fun fact, I know very little about cars. If you ask me what the torque or the HP or like the drag on something is, I will give you a blank stare because I just don't know. It's never been a huge interest for me. But what I do care about and what my professional and personal background is is health, environment, resources, politics, the economy.You know, I have a little bit of power generation knowledge. So all to say that EV adoption touches all of that; it actually has very little to do with cars. So I fell into this job. Actually, I was freelancing, and I was approached to freelance for electric autonomy when it first started up, and it was a really nice partnership, and it became a full time gig.   Dan Seguin  04:01 Cool. Can you give us a bit of background on Electric Autonomy, Canada?   Emma Jarrett  04:07 Sure. So the company was founded in 2019, we actually just turned four. Our founder, Nino Dakara, started the news platform because he saw that Canada was just falling behind on EV adoption compared to other countries. You know, at that point, Norway would have been, you know, mid hockey stick up to very, very high levels of adoption, and Canada just wasn't doing much. And so he identified this issue and pinpointed that one of the big bottlenecks to adoption is lack of education. There was just this dearth of information for Canada and Canadian businesses making these decisions. So that was where Electric Autonomy came. And we exist to fill that knowledge gap.   Dan Seguin  04:49 Now, what do you see as the biggest challenges facing the electric vehicle industry in Canada today? And how do you see these challenges being addressed in the coming years?   Emma Jarrett  05:02 So the EV industry always exists I think with this, like an existential crisis happening, we're building, well I'm not part of it, but the industry is building itself from the ground up almost. And making a combustion vehicle is very different from making an electric vehicle. So yes, there is an existing auto sector in Canada with lots of tier one parts and manufacturers. But essentially, you're rebuilding something in the best case scenario, and most of the time, you're just building from the ground up, particularly when it comes to batteries and building that supply chain. So, that's just an ongoing challenge, you know, imagine building a house and then multiply that by like 2 billion. And that's what, you know, the scale of what this is. So the daily acute challenge, though, I think, at this moment is supply of vehicles, they're just not enough to match the demand and the interest from the public. And that's proving incredibly frustrating for everybody from manufacturers who, you know, know that they're not providing to scale what people are looking for, and to customers on the flip side who've been waiting very long times, in some cases to get their vehicles to address them. I mean, these are growing pains, my hope is that they will work out as things become more established as more pieces of the supply chain fall into place and come up and running. But no, I mean, there are going to be some really big troubleshooting events that have to happen before everyone feels like okay, we're, we're ticking along here.   Dan Seguin  06:31 How has the COVID 19 pandemic impacted the electric vehicle market in Canada? And what changes do you anticipate in the near future?   Emma Jarrett  06:40 I hate to say supply chains because everyone has been blaming supply chains. But it was a huge blow to the auto industry in general. I mean, the early days of the pandemic, like factories were shut down for weeks and months, no one was producing anything, whether it ran on a battery, or a combustion engine. That was a massive problem for the industry. So you know, that just had to be weather really, COVID. And obviously, the government's had to step in with subsidies to keep the industries as they were, you know, variously impacted afloat, man. And there was a psychological side too, for people when you think the world is ending, and that you don't know what's going to happen next. And you're so worried about everybody getting sick, and you can't go anywhere and see anybody! Do you care about buying a car? Probably not. So, you know, we know from the numbers that, you know, purchases of vehicles went down a lot during COVID, which I think is a pretty understandable and natural reaction to the bigger world events that we're playing out. Now, the retail industrial complex is rebounding. And perhaps what we will see in the near future is people taking stock of their ability to have an impact on their health and the health of their neighbors and those around them. I don't think any of us want to live or another COVID. Not to say that vehicles are in any way responsible or impactful on COVID. But it does speak to you know, we want to live in a healthy, sustainable clean planet, and EVs are this a bad pun. But they're a vehicle to do that. They're one piece of the puzzle to help achieve a way of living that is just better for everybody.   Dan Seguin  08:20 There's been a lot of news and announcements made recently. Can you talk about what stands out for you as the most notable electric vehicle projects or initiatives currently underway in Canada that you're excited about? And maybe, why?   Emma Jarrett  08:36 Sure. So I think everyone stops and takes an extra pause when you hear there's a factory worth billions and billions of dollars going in. And that's, you know, maybe the third or fourth announcement of that type you've heard in a few months, it's really quite remarkable. The industry that's been attracted by the new investments that are coming into Canada, it's almost unprecedented. So to see that play out, in real time to get to cover it, you know, it's a privilege. It's very interesting. For me, I learned a lot every single day. And I think that, you know, the bird's eye view of the situation is that this is a real moment in our history. We're building a supply chain in this country that we've never had before. And it's going to be very interesting when we're looking back on it to see what kind of a fork in the road it represents for Canada that we seize this opportunity. What I'm most excited about with the announcements is the supply chain as a whole and decarbonizing that. So it's great that we have factories that make batteries, but it would be better if they were all powered by non emitting electricity. And it would be fantastic if the trucks that brought the refined minerals to those factories to go into the batteries were zero emission trucks and the mining vehicles that pulled the minerals brought out of the ground were all electric That, to me is the big piece of this, you know, the whole supply chain needs to be decarbonized.   Dan Seguin  10:06 Okay, Emma, the 2023 Federal Budget announced billions of tax credits and financing to attract investments in manufacturing, energy and tech sectors. Can you unpack some of the highlights that stood out for you in the budget as it relates to electric mobility or maybe clean energy?   Emma Jarrett  10:26 Sure. So the big question with this year's budget was, how is it going to respond to the United States inflation Reduction Act, which was, you know, a $369 billion omnibus bill. And you know, is it is going to squash Canada flat, we just don't have that kind of economic power at that scale. So when the budget came out this year, I think everyone was very surprised and tentatively impressed if it rolls out the way some of the politicians are saying it will. That for the EV industry and clean tech, you know, we can go toe to toe with the US using $55 billion, which is, you know, less than a quarter of what the US is spending. So that was just interesting. And I don't know enough about economic gymnastics to be able to say one way or the other if this is going to be a success, but it's an interesting strategy. And I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Aside from the IRA maneuvers, I was really pleased to see a new tax credit come up for decarbonisation of Canada's grids. $25.7 billion in tax credits to move towards sustainable, renewable, in most cases, sources of energy. And as an extension of that also smart peak management, you know, with battery storage, and better load prediction and understanding, I think that's really important.   Dan Seguin  11:59 Now, your coverage and knowledge of the electric mobility industry is extensive. What are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 targets?   Emma Jarrett  12:13 We have a very long way to go. I don't think we can pretend otherwise, the steps that are being taken are encouraging. But this is a really, really big ship to turn. I think the targets are possible to meet, I don't think they were unreasonable or pie in the sky. I really do think that it is achievable whether or not it happens. Who can say, I hope so. And I think that whenever I hear somebody saying, you know, being pushed too fast or they're naysaying the targets, I go, okay, fair, but can you tell me then what you think the alternative is to not meeting them? We're looking at a pretty stark future environmentally if action is not taken. And I am always of the opinion that some action is better than sitting there and doing nothing.   Dan Seguin  13:03 Okay. How do you think Canada's clean energy and climate policies are impacting the development and adoption of electric vehicles? And what changes would you like to see in the policy landscape?   Emma Jarrett  13:17 I think the government is sending a very clear signal, whether they're saying it outright, or they're using funding and grants and incentives that they want to de-risk EV adoption and venture into the EV landscape, whether that comes in the form of manufacturing or charging. So I think that that's quite a powerful signal to the private commercial world, everyone is still nervous about how this will go. It's not small amounts of money that companies are talking about here, if it goes sideways, it could sink them. So I think that helps to have that sense of, you know, the government saying, we're not going to abandon you, we're going to try to help where we can, but that's sort of like ledger books and dollars and cents, people are much trickier. Openness to buying an Eevee is very subjective. And you know, times that by 38 million. like every Canadian will have their own reason for buying or not buying an EV. Investments in rebates and better EV education and charging infrastructure and just making it more visible and, and more widely available is really helpful. And that is what is being done, but there's still people who want to switch. So how do you reach them? I think that there are probably much smarter people than me, you know, consumer insights and into you know, strategies there. But, you know, we may be in a position in the future where we've seen a lot of carrots being given as of late very few sticks. And there might be policies that make it really unappealing and de incentivize people to own a combustion vehicle,it might come down to that, I don't know.   Dan Seguin  14:59 Okay, Emma, follow up question here. What are other countries doing right that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?   Emma Jarrett  15:09 Where we see the highest number of EVs being bought and adoption rates that are, you know, nearly at 100%: your Norway's, your Iceland's and Sweden's of the world. Those countries that they have in common, they're smaller than Canada, like 100%, they're way smaller. It is a different and perhaps easier task to switch a more compact size country over to EVs sooner. However, they also just have a different societal perspective than we have, like a different social conscience. Citizens of those countries tend to embrace moving in sync together for the greater good, rather than, you know, the haves doing really, really well. And the have-nots being left behind, which is what we tend and see more towards here. I think it's an age-old question. Every politician, every grassroots activist has wondered and asked themselves, you know, the question of how do we get everyone to buy into this thing that we want them to do? There is no easy answer. But I think that we've seen in history, countries that band together to do something because they just believe it's the right thing. And it will net benefit as most people tend to do better. And at the end of the day, if we don't do anything, or we don't do enough, everyone in Canada will suffer because of climate change. We already know that there are pockets of the country that are acutely suffering more than others right now. But at the end of the day, it will be a universal problem for everybody.   Dan Seguin  16:35 Now, what do you believe are the most important factors driving the transition to electric mobility in Canada?   Emma Jarrett  16:44 We always come back to a few pillars, which is, you know, education is right up there just understanding demystifying this technology. I mean, these are not like spaced hovercraft, that you need a special license to learn how to drive, they're just a car. So education is really key. Just getting people familiar with the technology, access to the vehicles to test drive is really important. Because this is technology on wheels, it's cars now or computers on wheels. So think of one of the most successful tech brands in the world, Apple, what does Apple do really well? They have stores everywhere, and you get to go in and there are tables and tables of all of their stuff. And you can hold it and feel it and play with it. And that's what needs to happen with vehicles, particularly EVs. They're new, and people are interested, but they need to test it out first, and we've seen rebates and then purchase incentives be effective as well. These vehicles are more expensive right now everyone hopes and is anticipating those costs will come down. But until they do that will make it more likely that you'll get more people into them. If you can help with the costs. Maybe not everybody needs a rate rebate, but certainly some people do.   Dan Seguin  17:54 What role do you see Canadian businesses and entrepreneurs playing in the development of electric vehicle technologies and infrastructure? And what opportunities do you see for Canadian companies in this space?   Emma Jarrett  18:11 Since I started reporting for electric autonomy, I've had the most wonderful education and what it is that's actually made in Canada. And coming into this four years ago, I had no idea that we have the auto sector that we do outside of, you know, Windsor, basically. We make cars in Windsor, but the parts and the tier one suppliers, and the tiny little bits of the vehicle that nobody ever cares about, or knows about unless they break, so many of them are made here. And then we have the IP side, which has just flourished in the last few years with excellent talent coming, you know, out of the universities or into Canada from around the world. And the ecosystem is incredibly robust. We have an example of what entirely made in Canada talent can do with the project arrow. I don't know if you're familiar with that. But the APMA the Auto Parts and Manufacturers Association spent, I think it was three years - Yeah, three years, building from the ground up, a concept vehicle that is entirely made in Canada IP. Every part, every piece of technology, every self driving - driver assist feature on it came from Canadian talent. They had hundreds and hundreds of bids from across the country for companies to participate in the car and it's an incredible body of work. And it's such a good example of what is possible coming out of Canada.   Dan Seguin  19:46 Very cool. Okay. Now, what advice do you have for individuals who are interested in transitioning to electric vehicles but are still hesitant or unsure about the technology?   Emma Jarrett  20:00 Well, I would say that there are a couple of things you can do. First is, do you know anybody with an EV? Well enough to ask them, Hey, can you take me for a drive in it or even better? Let me go around the block a few times. If you don't have anybody in your life who owns an EV then there are every society chapters all across the country, you should look one up in your community or close by our community. And they are incredibly generous. It's just a collection of people who are really passionate about EV education and one of their favorite things to do is to get people into EVs. So it's not an over asked to see if you can have a drive ins in someone's car, educate yourself on how the EV works to demystify, you know, the power train, understand the the battery that is in the vehicle is really just an extra extra large version of what's already in your phone or your computer. It's just done on a bigger scale. So I think, oh, and as well charging, definitely educate yourself on the charging of your vehicle, because that's, you know, routinely something that is a stumbling block for potential buyers is "How am I going to charge this thing." If you're, if you don't live in a detached home where you have, you know, room on your panel to put in a Level 2 charger, you're gonna have to do a bit of homework to understand how you'll navigate that, and there are lots of options and lots of resources available.   Dan Seguin  21:29 Okay Emma, how do we make electric mobility and electrification equitable, and accessible for everyone to participate in? What's needed for all Canadians to buy in?   Emma Jarrett  21:42 Well, I don't know what's in it for all Canadians to buy in, in terms of what will sway someone to buy an EV or not, what is a convincing argument for me might not be for my neighbor. But to make it equitable, I hope that charging providers are really sensitive to and mindful of where they're rolling out charging, and not just concentrating it in specific pockets where adoption is really high. But instead making sure that there's an even spread so that everyone feels like they have access to the infrastructure, they need to power their vehicles, cost of the vehicles in and of themselves is always a recurring concern. I don't know what else there is to do at this point, with certainly a federal rebate in place available to all Canadians and most provinces and territories offering some form of a rebate to add on top of the federal one, rather than waiting for the cost to come down. And from conversations with manufacturers, that's something that everyone is quite mindful of. Carmakers want to sell cars, and the better the price, the more cars they'll sell. So it's not something they're oblivious to. It's just waiting for the supply chain to solidify so that it's not as costly to make the battery which remains the most expensive part of the vehicle. We do.   Dan Seguin  22:57 Okay, another follow up question for you. I'm looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach. Are you hopeful?   Emma Jarrett  23:05 I'm an impatient person by nature. So I would, I would always like to see it go faster. But I am hopeful that we are taking the right steps as a country. And I just hope that there are more to come that this isn't, you know, okay, we've done what we can and let the chips fall where they may, I hope that we continue to see just a rolling evolution as the temperature keeps being taken of what people need to make them comfortable switching over to a zero emission vehicle. So I am cautiously optimistic, I would say.   Dan Seguin  23:42 Okay, a personal question, Emma, if you don't mind. As an award winning journalist, given all of the stories, you've covered people you've met, and where you've been, what has been your most memorable and why?   Emma Jarrett  23:59 So in 20, what year would have been 2014, the war in Syria was really picking up steam. And I was already in Norway for a reporting stint. I was there for a few months. And at the end of it, I hopped on a flight and went to Turkey, traveled to the Turkish border of Syria, and stayed there for a week covering aspects of the conflict that I could from there. And I spoke with, you know, tons of, mostly children of varying ages, who had been evacuated from Syria to receive medical treatment in this small town called Rohanley. And that was a very formative experience for me. That was the closest I've ever been to a war, certainly very, very distressing to see people and kids lying in beds who are not much younger than me. I was, I was in my early 20s At the time, and also very inspiring to see that, you know, the doctors and the, you know, people who people who had never been in medicine before coming up with these incredible ideas to help these people who have been wounded, I ended up at a prosthetics clinic, a group of I mean, they were teenagers, they they had liked robotics when they were in school. And some of them might have had like one or two years of engineering behind them at university before the conflict broke out. And they started making prosthetics at this clinic for everybody who had lost limbs. And it was really incredible to see on many different levels, and it's always stayed with me.   Dan Seguin  25:46 Thank you for sharing this. Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I hope you're ready.   Emma Jarrett  25:56 Ready!   Dan Seguin  25:57 What are you reading right now Emma?   Emma Jarrett  25:59 I'm just about to start a new book by Tamara Cherry who is a journalist on trauma informed reporting. So it's telling the story in a way that's not re victimizing the people you're interviewing. Very excited about, I've heard great things.   Dan Seguin  26:15 Okay, um, what would you name your boa if you had one?   Emma Jarrett  26:19 I do not have a boat. I tend to get quite seasick. So I think I would have to go with like, the Hurley Girly or Hold the Waves, like something a bit tongue and cheek, but definitely I would much prefer that the boat either be on dry land, or very firmly tied to the dock.   Dan Seguin  26:37 Who is someone you admire?   Emma Jarrett  26:41 I don't have any public figures that jumped to mind. But I'm going to be very trite and say that I have so many wonderful people in my life that just bring me so much joy and challenge me and who have done amazing things in their own lives. And I just admire my friends, my family, my colleagues, that I'm just incredibly lucky that way.   Dan Seguin  27:04 Nice. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Emma Jarrett  27:10 Probably my pregnancies.   Dan Seguin  27:12 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Emma Jarrett  27:18 I was very lucky during the pandemic. I don't think a lot of people can say that they rode it out as well as I did in terms of, you know, getting to keep going with my everyday life. I've worked from home anyway, so it didn't hit me in the same way that it hit other people. But I think it was hard just being out and about and seeing the joylessness and the fear on everybody's faces all the time. You know, everyone is in masks, of course, and everyone's eyes had that same look of just really, really distressed - that was hard.   Dan Seguin  27:52 Okay, We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?   Emma Jarrett  28:00 I will usually always have Downton Abbey on in the background. I'm just a sucker for slow moving British TV with lots of horseback riding.   Dan Seguin  28:09 Now, lastly, what is exciting you Emma about your industry right now?   Emma Jarrett  28:16 It's exciting to watch history unfold in real time. I have this sense that, you know, in 20 years, we're all going to look back on this and think wow, that was a really cool thing to live through. And I'm fortunate because my job allows me basically to keep a diary - terrible diaries to my personal life but through reporting you know, I have story after story of my own and my colleagues just chronicling this massive societal transition, and I think it's going to be the neatest Time Capsule down the road.   Dan Seguin  28:49 Well, Emma this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect?   Emma Jarrett  29:03 I am on most social medias that happened before 2020. I do not understand Tik Tok. So please don't look for me there. But Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Electric Autonomy website. I'm easy to reach on all those platforms.   Dan Seguin  29:22 Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Emma Jarrett  29:28  It did. Thank you.   Dan Seguin  29:30 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

We’re on the road to net zero by 2050, driven by multiple levels of government. But what about sustainable development of our natural resources, including clean energy? Is it possible to meet net-zero goals and secure a prosperous future? Natural Resources Canada thinks so, with initiatives to help provinces and territories reduce greenhouse gas emissions and support their economic priorities. Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada, joins thinkenergy episode 111 to share how.   Related links   Debbie Scharf, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbiescharf/  Natural Resources Canada: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/  Regional Energy and Resource Tables: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/climate-change/regional-energy-and-resource-tables/24356  Sustainable Jobs Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jobs/training/initiatives/sustainable-jobs/plan.html  2030 Emissions Reduction Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/environment/weather/climatechange/climate-plan/climate-plan-overview/emissions-reduction-2030.html To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets on Twitter ------------- Transcipt: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is the think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In Canada, the energy sector is going through a major transition. As a nation, Canada has set ambitious targets to reach net zero emissions by 2050, and has made a commitment to prioritize the environment and climate action. Multiple levels of government and government agencies play an integral role in Canada's Net Zero initiative. So who is developing policies and programs to promote the sustainable development of Canada's natural resources, including clean energy? Natural Resources Canada is at the forefront of Canada's movement, working on initiatives that empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities while reducing greenhouse gas emissions through regional priorities and projects that align with Canada's netzero goals. Recently, the Royal Bank of Canada stated that the electricity sector is netzero already, but notes that it will require doubling, maybe even tripling the electricity output that currently exists today. This requires not only addressing the technical and economic challenges of transitioning to clean energy, but also creating social and cultural change. So here is today's big question. Can Canada successfully achieve its netzero goals, while creating a sustainable and prosperous future for all Canadians? Joining me today is Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada. In her role, Debbie is responsible for spearheading one of the Government of Canada's signature Energy Initiative, the transformation of regional energy systems through the regional energy and resources tables. She also oversees the sector's electricity resources branch, and the Energy Policy and International branch, both of which are integral to the Government of Canada central energy initiatives to realize a netzero future. Debbie, so great to have you join us today. Perhaps you can start by telling our listeners about Natural Resources Canada, better known as NRCan, and its objectives.   Debbie Scharf  02:54 Yeah. So Dan, thanks so much for inviting me here today, it's really great to talk a little bit about some of these issues with yourself and for your listeners. So NRCan is one of many federal departments. But our role specifically, is to work to improve the life of Canadians by ensuring our natural resources are developed sustainably, hence the name of our department. And we do this in ways for example, supporting climate change mitigation and advancing the net to zero transition using our natural resources to provide a source of jobs prosperity and opportunity for Canadians, of course, preserving our environment and those natural resources and respecting and engaging with indigenous peoples towards economic reconciliation. And so that really sums up very much the heart of what NRCan is about.   Dan Seguin  03:38 How is Natural Resources Canada integral to Canada's initiative to achieve a netzero future?   Debbie Scharf  03:46 Yeah, well, I'd say NRCan is pretty integral because 80% plus of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions comes from producing and using energy, and NRCan Canada's the department responsible for energy, at least federally. And so we play a very, very important role in the journey to get to net zero. And we try to use all of the tools that we have available as a department, which includes things like policies and regulations, funding programs, science partnerships, to help shape and accelerate that transition. And you know what, we're not just focused on emissions, we often talk about emissions when we talk about the net zero transition. But we also think a lot at NRCan, about how to create new economic opportunities that will create jobs for Canadians, good paying sustainable jobs, and to position Canadian businesses to be the supplier of choice for energy globally, and provide those energy services and security to the rest of the world. I just will say one thing and I said the point federally is because energy is a shared jurisdiction in this country, and that is pretty important. So as a department, part of an integral role of what we do is working collaboratively with our provincial and territorial counterparts and indigenous partners to do the work that we do and of course with a variety of stakeholders across the country.   Dan Seguin  04:58 Debbie now With respect to the environment and climate action, what is Canada already doing right?   Debbie Scharf  05:07 Well, I would say the one thing that is worth noting as a starting point is that over the past few decades, we've seen a decoupling of economic growth and GHG emissions. And I think that really speaks to the fact that there are things that are going right when it comes to energy and climate. There have been a number of technology improvements that we've seen regulations that have been implemented. And of course, although not under the purview of NRCan, a pollution carbon charge or tax that has been applied across the country, all of which have helped to tackle emissions and to help get them on a different trajectory. And so I do think that we're on the right track, I do, if you don't mind, highlight three kinds of sets of things that we're doing when we talk about, are we doing things right, and the first one is putting in place a plan. Now, the Government of Canada put in place a series of climate plans, but most recently, the emissions reductions plan in 2022. Because if you don't have a roadmap, to know where you want to go, and how you're going to get there, how are you going to know if you're achieving success, and you're doing the right things? So I think putting in place a really solid plan that gives us that roadmap has been something we're doing right. The other important thing is getting the right investment? How do you attract investment into the sorts of industries and technologies that we need to see Canada prosper as we move to net zero. And the most recent federal budget with a number of tax credits, which I'm sure we'll get into over the course of our chat, is an area where we're sort of moving the bar around Investment Attraction and collaboration. As I said, before shared jurisdiction, we are not doing anything in this country, when it comes to climate and energy and less we are working in partnership with other jurisdictions and with a broad range of stakeholders, and of course, our indigenous partners.   Dan Seguin  06:41 Okay, now, you've taken a new and prominent role as the Assistant Deputy Minister for NRCan, can you tell us a bit more about your role?   Debbie Scharf  06:52 Yeah. And I feel very privileged to be in this role at NRCan and enjoying it very much. So in my particular role, I'm focused on transforming Canada's energy system, through policies, programs and regulatory solutions to try and get to that net zero economy, but very critically, while ensuring affordability, reliability, and security of energy. So it's a bit of a trifecta set of outcomes that we're driving towards, and how you bring all of that together is really at the heart of what my role is, and NRCan and I oversee a large variety of files. But just to highlight a few that may be interesting. First, I'm responsible for the electricity sector and nuclear fuel cycle issues. Within the federal family, we have our resource, regional energy and resource tables, which are new collaborative partnerships with provinces and territories. And I'm happy to talk a bit about that to advance economic opportunities. Of course, the recently launched sustainable jobs plan, very connected to how we transform our industries and create those jobs. And so we provide leadership around that we do some international work on equity, diversity and inclusion, because we want to build the right energy sector of the future. And we do things like just providing that core energy data to Canadians, like our energy Factbooks. So people can understand the energy sector in Canada. So those are all things that I do in my sector, amongst other things.   Dan Seguin  08:09 Great segue here. Okay. So you're spearheading the regional energy and resources table? What is their purpose specifically?   Debbie Scharf  08:18 So that's a great question. So the regional tables are a really different approach that the federal government is taking, and they're very focused on how do you drive economic benefit and economic prosperity in the context of transitioning to net zero? And when it comes to a country like Canada? And when it comes to energy? Where you live matters. A Quebecer is not facing the same type of issues as someone in Alberta, or British Columbia, or Prince Edward Island. And so energy is a very regional issue, the challenges that each region of the country will face in the transition is different. And frankly, the economic opportunities in each region of the country are also going to look a little bit different. And so the regional tables are really about how do we accelerate those economic opportunities on a jurisdiction or regional basis, understanding that these issues are going to be felt differently depending on where you live. And if I can quote Minister Wilkinson, just for one moment, although he's not subject to this podcast, it is, it is a very key comment. He talks about the need to be strategic, ambitious, and collaborative. And those are really the words that I would use to describe what underpins what we're trying to achieve with regional tables.   Dan Seguin  09:26 Can you help me better understand how the regional tables will empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities?   Debbie Scharf  09:36 Yeah, that's a great question. So the starting point for the regional tables, regardless of what jurisdiction we're talking to you, is to decide on a small number of priority areas where we think that as government's working with indigenous partners and stakeholders, we can accelerate and make demonstrable progress in the near term and into the future. So we can't do everything under the sun, but we find three or four priority sectors are priority areas where the province or the territory would like to partner with the federal government to accelerate progress. So that is really the starting point. And then the goal is as governments, how can we align our resources, our timelines, or decision making our regulatory processes to accelerate the development of those priority areas, i.e. those industries. And as governments, we have a tremendous ability to do that better, to be able to make that kind of progress. And so very tangibly, it's really about coming together and having discussions around, okay, if I'm British Columbia, and I want to build a hydrogen economy, what stands in the way of doing that? What would be our objectives around what we'd like to see happen in British Columbia? And what are the sorts of tangible actions we can take together to be able to accelerate that progress. And that is really step one, there's, there's more steps to the regional table, that there's very, that is very much step one, to be able to move these forward. And that's very much where we're focusing our efforts right now.   Dan Seguin  10:54 Okay, let's get just a bit in the weeds here. Debbie, can you tell our listeners more about who the participants are at the regional tables, besides the federal, provincial and territorial governments?   Debbie Scharf  11:06 Yeah. And so, you know, the theme of collaboration, I think, will be a thread throughout many of my answers, but collaboration isn't very there. And partnership, frankly, is a very important part of the regional tables. So, you know, you've heard me express that the starting point is this relationship between governments. The other incredibly important feature to the regional tables is a partnership with indigenous communities and partners in the jurisdiction. And you know, just like energy has a very different landscape across the country, the indigenous landscape is also very different depending on what part of the country you live in. And so we're designing very specific ways of partnering with indigenous organizations and communities in each province. So that, ultimately, we hope that we can have more of a trilateral type of discussion around how to accelerate these priorities. So that's another important feature of Who are these partners at the table. The other piece is, there's a number of stakeholder groups out there that have expertise, whether it be industry partnerships with Union and labor groups who are interested in understanding how we're going to build the jobs of the future, think tanks that are really considering so many long term challenges in this space. So universities, there's a large range of stakeholders that want to be able to participate in this process. And we're finding ways to do that as well. Because at the end of the day, we want to understand how to accelerate change. And we need to have all those perspectives brought to bear. And so we're designing that type of input and partnership into the process as well.   Dan Seguin  12:27 Okay, moving on here. Maybe you can tell us how federal funding from existing sources can be directed towards top regional priorities and projects?   Debbie Scharf  12:38 Yeah, so this is a really important piece. Because if the idea is that through these discussions you've identified, what are your priorities, what are your objectives? And therefore, what are the types of projects that we need to advance in those jurisdictions, you could start to develop a pretty clear priority list around where you want to catalyze investment, and how public and private sector dollars can be brought to bear. And that is exactly sort of when we talk about how do we align our programming, it's really about these tables, being able to provide a sense of what are those priorities that we need to invest in? And then how can we bring the programs and the federal family to bear to help facilitate those program investments. And there are a number of programs that we have that exists within the federal government, whether it be the Strategic Innovation Fund Netzero Accelerator, the soon to be brought to fruition Canada Growth Fund, the infrastructure Bank, the Critical Mineral Strategy that had quite a bit of funding attached to it. So these are all areas that we're looking at to say, how do we match, you know, where public funding can support priority investments and the tables are servicing where those priorities are?   Dan Seguin  13:41 Debbie, can you expand on how the approach to net zero emissions and in nature, a positive future will be different across the country?   Debbie Scharf  13:51 So it's really interesting, I have another thread that you'll hear throughout the discussion around regional tables as the no one size fits all approach, or where you live matters type of idea. And so what we're finding is that there's a lot of consistency in the priorities that different jurisdictions across the country are interested in, in pursuing, but they look very different depending on where you live, I'll give you a very obvious example, if you want to talk about carbon capture and storage and you live in Alberta. That's a very different conversation than if you're in Newfoundland, and you have an industry, like an oil and gas industry that exists offshore, the type of conversation you're going to have will be very different in terms of what types of actions you have to take to move that type of technology solution forward. And the same thing could be said around, you know, fuel sources like hydrogen, if you live in Alberta, or Saskatchewan, you may produce hydrogen a bit differently than if you were in Quebec, or in Manitoba. And so it's very interesting to see how common priorities can find their expression very different depending on where you live.   Dan Seguin  14:54 In Canada, where do you see the biggest opportunities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Since in nature, and where do you see the biggest opportunities in technology?   Debbie Scharf  15:05 Yeah. Um, so I would be remiss if I didn't talk about carbon capture, and storage or carbon capture utilization and storage, CCS or CCUS. As a great example, for Canada, we have an enormous amount of natural advantages in space. And it is going to be a very important technology for Canada to be able to reduce emissions and think about those hard to abate sectors not only oil and gas, but concrete, steel, other types of industrial activities that need to capture emissions. And in Canada, we have wonderful geology, and we wonder about sort of natural strengths. And we have an amazing industry and investments have been made in this technology in years past, that really put us in an excellent position to take advantage of a technology like that. And in the vein of CCUS carbon capture as a concept is a very important opportunity area. And another example where you can capture carbon, but not necessarily through a technology is, for example, through our 2 billion trees program, where using nature to capture carbon is another very interesting way to be able to tackle this wall restoring nature and biodiversity and having a number of other positive impacts. So I'd say there's a lot to say for carbon capture technologies and a lot of reasons why it's a unique opportunity area for Canada.   Dan Seguin  16:21 Now, staying on this topic of net zero, which sectors are most likely to achieve Net Zero first?   Debbie Scharf  16:30 That's a very hard question, because it's going to be a tricky path, I think, for all sectors, because each one is going to have its own unique challenges to get to net zero. Typically, when I think about it, we talk a lot about reducing emissions in different sectors. I like to start by talking about the energy mix that actually underpins all sectors, and how do you get that energy next to be clean, reliable and affordable, because without that, you're not going to get any sector to actually adopt those clean energy sources. So it is we're starting with electricity where we've made significant headway and is probably the front runner in Canada as a sector in terms of reducing emissions with the phase out of unabated coal fired electricity generation happening in 2030. We're Canada's international leader, that sectors 83% clean and growing. And we have a commitment to get to net zero emissions in that sector by 2035. But what I will say is that's enormous progress and enormous progress that will be made going forward. And now we have to look at getting clean electricity to more people and more industries. And that will be a challenge in and of itself. And the other part of the energy system that's definitely worth attention and will be so important, are clean fuels like hydrogen, because we know that some industries and applications will not be able to use electricity or are going to need to use clean fuels. So I like to think about how do we get the energy system in the right place, have it reliable, affordable and clean, and then you have to get to adoption, and get each of the sectors to be able to adopt that. And you know, then you get into another set of challenges around technology and industrial processes, which will be a challenge. But you know, I would say electricity probably is coming up at the top.   Dan Seguin  18:06 How is NRCan enabling a clean energy future through electrification?   Debbie Scharf  18:13 Yeah, and I think electricity has made its way into your podcasts in the past. It's a very, very important topic. And that's because there are experts that have estimated that the electricity system may need to double, maybe even triple by the time 2050 comes around. And that is going to be an enormous challenge for Canada and nation building, frankly, a challenge for Canada. Think about railroads, the transmission lines of today are the railroads of the past to be able to get electricity to where it needs to get to. And that's one of the reasons why we have the regional tables where we're talking about electricity, infrastructure and investments there. And we're soon to launch the Canadian electricity Advisory Council, which was previously called the pan Canadian grid council to help help us through some of these challenges are that maybe what I will say is perhaps not NRCan, but the Government of Canada in terms of advancing electrification, I think it is worth just reiterating what was in our federal budget that was just announced a number of weeks ago, because there's some real game changers in there. For example, the introduction of a clean electricity tax credit, which is applicable to tax and non tax entities. And to not use jargon, that means you're not a private sector company, it's still okay, which means utilities can actually get access to these tax credits, which is an enormous leap forward for the application of these tax credits, which will help with the investments required in the electricity sector. There's also new and enhanced low cost financing that's being brought to bear with commitments around how the Canada Infrastructure Bank will be spending its money and the Canada Growth Fund. And then of course, the top up to NRCan programming to the tune of about $3 billion to help ensure critical projects get built. And even more important than having tax credits and strategic financing and targeted programs is that they're all going to work together and really come together in an integrated way to support investment. And I think that is a major leap forward in terms of thinking about how to catalyze investment in this sector.   Dan Seguin  20:04 Now, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges and opportunities that you see?   Debbie Scharf  20:10 I almost feel like the challenge and the opportunity is the flip side of one another. Because huge challenge, we got to build out the system - a huge opportunity, we can build it out more flexibly, more reliably, we could bring more energy efficiency to bear which by the way, will be critical to not overbuilt the system, bring new technologies to bear - like smart grid technologies, and leverage new possibilities like vehicle to grid storage for electric vehicles. Talk about all those batteries that are going to be out there! All of those technologies are enormous opportunities. But the flip side is we need a lot of electricity. And we got to build that out. And what I would say is at the heart of the challenge, is how do you find the balance between having a clean system, an affordable system and a reliable system? And making decisions to build things out in a way that balances those three things, I think is the challenge on the opportunity   Dan Seguin  20:59 To accelerate success, what are the countries should Canada be looking to emulate or learn from?   Debbie Scharf  21:07 Yeah, that is a great point. Because we are not going to get to net zero without learning from partners and others around the world. And there are a few, I think, sort of really good models out there of other countries. And you really need to look to the ones that are tackling similar challenges that we have here in Canada to see what we can learn from them. For example, you know, there's an EU model around integrating regional electricity trade that can be really fascinating for Canada to learn from given that we have fragmented provincial jurisdictions with different market and regulatory structures. And we got to find a way to connect the system together for the collective good. And there are countries like Australia that have quite a similar type of structure to their economy, being the large energy producer, but also wanting to tackle climate and having sort of similar constitutional divisions of labour with their states. And in fact, believe it or not, Australia did something very similar to the regional energy and resource tables. It wasn't called that, but they were a model that we looked at before, before we landed the final design for that particular piece. So we do a lot of international engagement, bilaterally or multilaterally, because there's a lot to learn from others.   Dan Seguin  22:11 Debbie, is it possible to transition to a netzero future without economic hardships in a carbon heavy sector? Can you give an example on how to achieve this?   Debbie Scharf  22:23 Well, to quote another thing that someone wants once mentioned before is the best way to predict the future is to create it. So I think we have to very consciously think about the future we want to create, and how to diversify the industries that we have into new product lines, new clean energy opportunities, in the way that we think about the activities we're going to take going forward. But you know, one example that I think is worth picking up on is the work that we're doing on sustainable jobs in particular. Because this is an area that you can really get wrong, and talking about hardship is an area that you absolutely don't want to get wrong. And so really looking at where we want to see economic growth, and how do you support workers to be able to be ready for the type of opportunities that are going to be available in the future. And I would be remiss if I did not mention that we did publish a first interim Sustainable Jobs Plan earlier this year in February, and it talked about 10 key areas where we can make some demonstrable progress, and we already are making demonstrable progress to get the workforce ready for the future. And frankly, it will be a differentiator because you can't have economic activity without people working. And if you don't have the right labor market, there won't be investment decisions made by companies. And so I think that that is one area that we have to get right.   Dan Seguin  23:38 Now, the Royal Bank of Canada released the thought leadership piece last October. That said, the electricity industry is netzero already, but that we would need to double the electricity output that currently exists today. What are your thoughts on Canada's electricity sector, its readiness, and that assessment.   Debbie Scharf  23:59 So I already mentioned that Canada's grid is about 83% non emitting. Having said that, though, there are five provinces where there's still a significant reliance on unabated fossil fuels, provinces like Alberta, Saskatchewan, some Atlantic provinces, Ontario. And so again, where you live matters when it comes to energy, because when it comes to being Net Zero ready, it's going to feel a bit different in those provinces than if you were Quebec or British Columbia. And so we have to really focus on how to support the jurisdictions that need to get there and will be faced with the greatest challenges. And I cannot emphasize enough like the scale of the challenge. We tend to use the word generational quite a bit, perhaps we use it a bit too much. But it is very generational in nature, just in terms of its size and scope. And so, you know, once again, to just mention that we know as a federal government, we need to be a constructive partner in the Federation around these particular issues and to help those jurisdictions that need help to get to where they need to be and the tax measures in the budget are very good exams. boasts of how we do that providing long term stable, predictable investment climate, and frankly, helping to reduce costs, which means reducing ratepayer impacts around these particular projects in the jurisdictions that are going to feel it the most. So do I think that we have the technology to get there? I do. Does that mean that it's going to be easy for those provinces and jurisdictions that have a long way to go? No, it will not be easy.   Dan Seguin  25:25 Interesting. Is there a myth or misunderstanding about the energy transition or netzero, that you wish more people understood?   Debbie Scharf  25:36 This is a great question. So I'm going to answer it a little bit more from the perspective of what I worry about the most, when I think about the work that I do. And what I worry about the most is that we don't always appreciate that Canada is an energy producing nation. So we generate an enormous amount of wealth, security, and cheap energy from our energy sectors. And in turn, we are providing the world with energy security, not every country can say that. In fact, there's a fairly small number of countries around the globe that can say that. But it puts us in a bit of a tricky position, because we're producing a lot of energy for other people. And when we think about getting to net zero, that creates an interesting dynamic for Canada about how we get there. And I look at other countries like Europe, and it makes you realize that energy affordability and energy security is actually our battle to lose, because those are things we have today. But another country, there are countries, they're not things that they have. And we definitely don't want to end up in that particular situation. So we just have to think a little, I worry that people don't appreciate the challenge unique to Canada as an energy producer. And when we're thinking about the energy transition. And when we design our policies, we have to think not just about emission reductions, but how do we continue to generate that wealth, that prosperity and that security from the energy system? And we have to solve all those complex outcomes for Canadians. Otherwise, we're not going to get it right. And we're going to lose the battle.   Dan Seguin  27:02 Finally, Debbie, how do you make the fight against climate change equitable, and accessible for everyone to participate in? What's needed for all Canadians to buy into the net zero plan?   Debbie Scharf  27:16 So a couple of things that I would say about this. The first thing is, all levels of government have to cooperate, right? Like we've got to get, we've got to get the collaborations and partnerships, right to be able to create the enabling conditions to get to where we want to go. I would say that for Canadians, and my sense is, I would feel this, and I do feel this personally. So it is a very personal experience, I need to have a job, I need to put food on the table, I need to feel like I'm making the right choices. I need to feel like the government and the country are making the right choices. And so we just have to make sure that in all the things that we're doing, we're being mindful that these are outcomes that we need to be able to deliver for Canadians, and not only for the Canadians that are employed in the workforce, but for marginalized people, underrepresented groups, like how can we create a very inclusive Canada on the path to net zero. And I think if we can develop the vision and implement a vision for an inclusive, secure, affordable, and prosperous Canada, then we're going to get the buy-in that we need. And the trick is to be able to solve all those things really well.   Dan Seguin  28:20 Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?   Debbie Scharf  28:27 I am scared but I am ready.   Dan Seguin  28:32 Now, what are you reading right now?   Debbie Scharf  28:34 A historical fiction about World War Two.   Dan Seguin  28:36 Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one?   Debbie Scharf  28:40 Well, I am the eternal optimist. So I would name it Possibility.   Dan Seguin  28:45 Now Debbie, who is someone you truly admire?   Debbie Scharf  28:49 Easiest answer, my mother?   Dan Seguin  28:51 What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Debbie Scharf  28:56 And I would say watching my kids grow into adults.   Dan Seguin  29:01 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally since the pandemic began?   Debbie Scharf  29:08 Yeah, so the biggest challenge I would say is actually supporting my children who I think have borne the biggest brunt of pandemic choices in society. So I would say a real sort of personal experience around the pandemic.   Dan Seguin  29:22 Okay, we've been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or even show?   Debbie Scharf  29:29 Yeah, so right now, Firefly Lane and Night Agent, which shows my bizarre ability to move between romantic comedies and action options.   Dan Seguin  29:41 Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?   Debbie Scharf  29:47 Oh, that's an easy question, because I am pretty excited about this industry right now. I think we are in the middle of the most difficult but exciting time in the energy transition. And I'm actually feeling pretty privileged to play a part of on behalf of all Canadians to try and get us there.   Dan Seguin  30:03 Well, Debbie, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect?   Debbie Scharf  30:16 Well, the easiest way to do that is to send an email Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Energy Systems Sector at Natural Resources Canada.   Dan Seguin  30:25 Thanks again for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Debbie Scharf  30:29 Thanks so much, Dan.   Dan Seguin  30:33 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.