ThinkEnergy

If electrification is the future of energy, the grid must become more efficient and more reliable. All across Canada, from province to province to right here at home in Ottawa. Jenna Gillis, Manager of Distribution System Integration at Hydro Ottawa, joins thinkenergy to discuss the process. Listen to episode 136, as she shares how Ottawa’s electricity grid is being updated with an Advanced Distribution Management System (ADMS) and what this means for you, your family, and residents throughout the region. Related links EV Everywhere Pilot Project: https://hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy/save-energy-homes/ev-everywhere  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript:  Transcript Ep 136 Fri, Apr 26, 2024 9:47AM • 55:30 SUMMARY KEYWORDS talked, grid modernization, grid, information, customers, devices, data, change, system, energy, asset, technology, call, great, operators, Ontario, working, dynamic, sense, distribution SPEAKERS Trevor Freeman, Jenna Gillis   Trevor Freeman  00:07 Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, I think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone, welcome back. I'm pretty excited about today's topic, because we're going to be tackling something a little bit technical. And that's always fun. And today is going to be the first of what might end up being a few different episodes looking at this term called grid modernization. So today, we're going to do just a high-level overview. And then over the next few months, there'll be a couple of different episodes that will dive deeper into some of the specific aspects of grid modernization. So that term grid modernization can be a little bit daunting, but that's okay. Our goal here is to pull apart these topics to better understand what they are and how they impact all of us, you know, from those of us working in the energy sector, all the way to the end users of our product, if you will, our electricity customers. So, let's start by a bit of a primer. And I think it'll be helpful to start by talking about what the grid is. So, the electrical power grid has been called the world's largest machine, and the greatest engineering achievement of the 20th century. And for good reason, thinking of it as a machine is a great metaphor, because just like a car, or a sewing machine or a snow blower, there are a lot of parts. And if any one of those parts breaks or isn't working as it's supposed to be, that will impact the overall function of the machine. And the same is true for the grid. And the parts we're talking about here are the holes, the conductors or wires, the transformers, the switches, as well as the many different sensors and meters and communication devices that help the humans in the mix, monitor and control things. The difference though, is that you know, even for a complex machine, like a car, there are hundreds or maybe even a couple 1000 parts. But the electricity grid, even if we just look at let's say hydro Ottawa as territory, there are hundreds of 1000s of parts. And if we scale that up to Ontario's grid, we're talking about millions and millions of individual parts all working together, so that when you turn your lights on at home, electricity that was generated hundreds or 1000s of kilometers away, flows into your device and makes it work. That's pretty impressive. And if any one of those millions of parts breaks, there's an impact somewhere on the grid. If multiple things break, or if there's something really critical that isn't working. That's a major problem. And we've seen these major problems. We've seen large scale outages. And you know, we tend to focus on Ontario's grid on this show, because that's what we call home. But our grid is connected to our neighboring grids, who are connected to their neighbors to form really an interconnected North American grid across Canada and the United States. It really is a modern engineering marvel. And, you know, we didn't just get here by chance. This was kind of designed, you know, back at the early days of the 20th century in the early 1900s. Electrical pioneers met for the first time in what is now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss what it would look like to wire Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Our predecessor company, the Ottawa hydroelectric commission, connected to that provincial grid in 1916. So, what we know as the Ottawa grid and our service territory is over 100 years old today. Before that, across Ontario, reliable and continuous power in the region was kind of uncommon, and really dependent on whether someone in the area like a major business or a wealthy individual had invested in a localized electricity grid for their own needs. An interconnected provincial grid was designed and implemented with a goal of making electricity available to all Ontarians regardless of where they lived. And that kind of evolution of the grid in Ontario is similar to how it worked in other parts of North America and indeed the world. That's kind of how grids came about in the last century. Ontario's electricity grid, however, like all grids around the world, was really designed as a one-way street. So, the idea was to generate and then transmit, and then deliver that electricity to customers in that order. Back then, those pioneers really couldn't have imagined an electricity grid that would need to support two-way interactive things like small scale distributed renewable energy, you know, solar panels on roofs or electric vehicles, or energy storage, and a whole host of other things that, you know, want to do more than just draw power from the grid. As we've talked about the ongoing energy transition, and electrification, which is being driven by the pressures of climate change, is really driving a societal shift to bring the electricity system into the 21st century, and to make sure it's powered with clean, renewable electricity. So, our grid is starting to undergo this major transformation. And we won't be able to do that effectively or affordably by just using the same strategies and technologies and the same pace that we've been doing it at over the last 100 plus years. We need to take it to the next level; we need to rethink what we're doing to upgrade the grid and how we're doing it. And that's really what grid modernization is, it's not saying we don't have a modern grid, it's realizing that the grid of 10 years from now needs to be different in a much bigger way than it's different from how it was 10 years ago, that pace of change needs to happen quicker. And we need to bring on new functionality. It's not just you know, incremental change anymore. To help us make some sense of this. I'm really happy to have Jenna Gillis to chat with today. Jenna is the manager of distribution system integration at hydro Ottawa and is leading this major project that we're calling at a high-level grid modernization, or more specifically, our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. Jenna has been with hydro Ottawa for 16 years and has held a number of different roles on the operations and systems side of our business and really knows how our grid operates, how it's been operating, how the humans in the mix control things. And what's necessary to get us to that next stage that we've been talking about. Jenna, welcome to the show.   Jenna Gillis  07:04 Great. Thanks, Trevor. excited to talk to about this today.   Trevor Freeman  07:07 Yeah, I'm excited to. So, let's start at kind of a high level here and help our listeners understand how we currently operate our grid today. So, paint the picture for those of us who don't kind of get to see what happens behind the scenes. How do we control things today?   Jenna Gillis  07:23 Yeah, for sure. So, what people might not realize that we actually have people sitting in a control room centralized control room that looks at our system 24/7 365. So, we've got people monitoring the system all the time. And they look at the grid state, and they help direct field activities. They look at triaging outages as they become aware of them. And right now, we've got visibility to our control room to all of our substations, so all of our, you know, high level devices, but only down to about 8% of the feeders and not actually all the way out to our customer level. So, what does that mean? That means that we still rely on customers calling us or reporting online when they experience an outage. And all of that information does make its way back into our control room operators. And it goes into a system we call the outage management system, which helps us track and identify where we might be seeing issues out on the grid. So, the operators then use that information to help make decisions in terms of controlling the grid where they need to open up closed devices where they need to send field crews to restore power. So, on top of that, most of these activities are done by field crews. So, the system operators are in direct contact with our crews out in the field and providing direction on where to go, what devices to you know, have them physically open or close in the field. And we've got about 10% of our system right now that has remote capabilities. So that means that the operators can choose to open or close those devices, basically at a click of a button back in the office sitting at a computer. So, most of what we do today really is human based and does take an expert control operator to be monitoring the systems and making the decisions.   Trevor Freeman  09:08 Yeah, so we've got this like really complex system. It's, you know, state of the art system, if you will, that requires, like you say experts to keep track of what's happening to identify problems and make decisions based on the information they're getting. I just want to pick apart a few things you said there. So, when we're talking about our substations, just for our listeners, those are, you know, spots in our grid where we take higher voltage and step it down via transformers to a lower voltage, and then send that out on wires. That's what we call our feeders to our end customers. We know what's happening at that substation level, we can see whether the power is flowing or not whether switches are open or not. But once it gets past that we lose some of that visibility. That's kind of what I'm hearing from you   Jenna Gillis  09:57 Yeah, exactly. And so that's why I'm saying like we still rely on those notifications from our customers to let us know where they're seeing the problems. And, you know, it comes into a system that, that we can look at in conjunction with that visibility that we have on the substations to help us understand what's going on.   Trevor Freeman  10:12 Right. So obviously, it was such a, you know, an ordered and complex system, we're constantly in proving and renewing and upgrading. That's not new. That's not something that we're just starting. But as I've kind of hinted at in the opening there, we do need to change how we do things. So, before we look into where we're going, how do we renew and upgrade today, what's our current process.   Jenna Gillis  10:36 So, we do have a robust asset management framework. So that's basically a program that tells us and we look at all of our asset information. And that's whether that's poles, wires, transformers, switches, breakers, basically anything we have out on the distribution system, and we look at and prioritize where we need to invest and where we need to renew, replace, install, upgrade, all of that kind of stuff. So basically, as we do that, right now, we go through, and we'll incorporate new technologies, like these remote-control switches, like these sensors to bring information back into the control room to help us continue to evolve, meet our customer or system needs. So, this, this process has worked really well in the past in terms of keeping pace with technology and the requirements of the grid and our customers. But right now, we're seeing that it's we're falling behind, it's too slow to parallel installation of these new technological devices, with these asset renewals or installation. So, I mean, if you think about it, you know, a pull out with wires on it can last over 50 years, we can't wait until we're replacing those 50 years from now to go in and add these new technological advancements. So, what that means is now we're looking at a hybrid approach. So of course, we're going to continue to parallel activities where it makes sense with these asset renewals and upgrades and replacements. But we also need to strategically start placing these devices in areas that we're going to gain benefit from, and I'm talking about benefit from a control room operator perspective, benefit from a safety or field crew perspective, but also where we can provide value to our customers in terms of, you know, expediting restoration efforts, or, you know, providing more flexibility into the system to allow more customer connections, whether that be, you know, new residential developments, or whether that's, you know, the next solar panel or battery or something like that.   Trevor Freeman  12:25 Yeah, waiting for anybody who's familiar with kind of technological adoption curves and the pace of technological change, you talk about 50 years is the life of some of this equipment, the difference between technology and let's say, 1930, and 1980, wasn't a huge jump when it comes to poles and wires and transformers. But today, the difference of 50 years is night and day that we're not talking at all about the same technology. So, we can't wait for that whole cycle to go through before we're getting some of the tech in today that we need today in order to upgrade the system. So that's helpful to understand what that looks like. So, let's look forward then. And when we talk about where we want to go with grid modernization, how we want to change that, talk us through what we're trying to accomplish.   Jenna Gillis  13:14 Yeah, so I think I'm going to paint a little bit of a picture here in terms of how I think about grid modernization, because that's really helped me contextualize the way that we need to do things differently. So, I think of grid modernization, that program in entirety as like a stacked or a layer pyramid. At the bottom, you have field devices. So, you have equipment that's remotely controlled, or providing data in the field. So, you know, we're talking about sensors, or meters or switches, things like that. That's your foundation. On top of that, you then need a way to get that information back-to-back to systems back to people. So, then you need a communication infrastructure. So, you need to be able to take that data and funnel it where it needs to go, which is the third layer data management, you need to store, organize, create access to that field data. And then finally, the fourth triangle right at the very top is your applications and analytics later. So now you've got the data coming from the field, you're bringing it back, and you're managing it. So now what are you going to do with that information. So, these are the applications and analytics. So really the tools that digest that data and ultimately help make decisions. So that is what I envisioned kind of as the grid modernization pyramid. And you need each one of those layers to unlock the value from the layer below it. So, you can't really have one without the other all the way up to the top. So, what we need to start doing is thinking about these layers in a programmatic fashion. What we've done historically is looked at the requirements on a project by project or program by program basis. So basically, you would unlock each one of those layers for that specific project or program requirements. What we need to start doing now is that grid modernization is going to be the foundation for everything we do. So basically, every project, every program is going to require some level of information, data management, analytics, communication. So, the way we're looking at that is this is now becoming a foundation to everything we do. So, we need to be programmatic, roll this out so that regardless of what we're doing in the future, we have this foundation to rely on. And we're not building it piece by piece as we work through, you know, project life cycles. So really, what's different when I talk about grid modernization assets, and I'm talking about meters, or sensors or remote-control devices, is the integrated nature. So, we talked about that pyramid, you can't use these devices without any one of those layers, whereas you think of a traditional asset like a pole, you can, you know, load it up at a truck, and somebody can go and put it in the ground. So, it's really the true convergence. Now we're seeing what we, you know, our information technology, our IT systems, our operational technology, or OT systems, and then operations and asset management. So, we really need to be looking at these things together, as one, making sure we're all aligned to unlock each one of these layers.   Trevor Freeman  16:15 Yeah, it really highlights the, I guess, cascading impacts of projects and decisions and bringing on new technology across the entire distribution, business and how we do things and how we serve our customers. One is impacting the other in ways that hasn't really, truly been the case before. So that's a great way of painting it. Thanks, Jenna. Let's talk about kind of the why behind this, what are the benefits that we're going to see by taking this approach by taking this sort of accelerated upgraded process that we're doing? What are we going to gain from this?   Jenna Gillis  16:54 So, our overall grid modernization strategy is guided by five key objectives. So, I'll go through each one of those and give you kind of a high-level blurb on what it is that we're trying to achieve with grid modernization. So, the first one is enhancing reliability. So, the more monitoring devices you have in the field to understand the state of the grid, the more remote capabilities you have in order to operate. And you know, isolate and restore, the better reliability has the ultimate goal is moving towards an automated process, where you have all of the foundation of the equipment, the communication channels and the audit, the analytics to make decisions, you can get outages restored much more quickly. The next one is what we call flexibility. So adaptive grid flexibility. So, we want to make sure that the grid is dynamic to all of these changing energy demands that we're seeing come online, so things like heat pumps, or electric vehicles, or solar generation or battery, we want to provide more options for the connections and be able to have the grid respond dynamically to these changing conditions. Next one we have is fortified resilience and robust security. So, resilience is really about the ability to do to withstand disruptions. And I'm talking about that from, you know, a physical asset perspective, but maybe also a technology perspective, as well, we want to make sure that we have a good diversity, to be able to recover from disruptions. So, we know there will always be disruptions, as we've seen, kind of with the weather and the little last little while. And then as we get more and more connected, we need to make sure we're safeguarding assets from cyber threats, core to everything we do, we want to make sure that we're thinking about the customer. And so, we're looking towards strengthening customer engagement and empowerment. So, we've talked about, you know, getting more data back from the field and being able to unlock new ways of doing things, new tools, and providing some of this information back to the customers to help them be better informed about their energy uses, and their, low profile and what they want to do with their equipment. And then finally, sustainable decarbonization of renewable energy integration. So, we really want to look at reducing our carbon footprint by optimizing our planning and operations processes. So, we talked about it a little bit about automation, you know, that will reduce our need to roll trucks for crews to physically go out in the field and operate devices. And basically, everything above we talked about was, you know, being able to incorporate renewable energy sources. We want to make sure that we have the ability to bring these resources online and leverage them.   Trevor Freeman  19:34 Yeah, I mean, it really kind of, again, not to kind of reiterate the same things we're talking about, but it it's an all-encompassing type of project like everything we're trying to do everything we talk about on this show, when it comes to the energy transition, whether that's having a more robust, sustainable, smart grid on the utility side of things, to enabling the kinds of things our customers want to do in terms of adding in more DER's, more self-generation and storage, this project is kind of the foundation work. And that's going to support all of those efforts. And we're really only going to get so far without doing this kind of work, which stresses the importance of it.   Jenna Gillis  20:19 Yeah, it really does unlock so much more by having this level of information and visibility into our system that we want to achieve.   Trevor Freeman  20:27 Yeah, that's great. Okay, so let's kind of dive in here you have this overall strategy that you and your team have outlined, which you're calling our grid modernization roadmap. Walk us through the main components of this and kind of the timelines that you've laid out? Is this a six months project? I say that kind of laughing, knowing is not a six-month project? How long is this going to take? And what are the major components of this.   Jenna Gillis  20:53 So hopefully, I've done some justification in terms of, you know, mapping out how complex this actually is to deploy. And so, our grid modernization roadmap is set out, basically a set of initiatives over the next 10 plus years. So, we've kind of, you know, got a good handle on the objectives we want to unlock over the next 10 years. And so, we've laid out, what do we need to do to unlock those, and what's the timing of that. So, we also need to understand that this is going to be dynamic and constantly evolving with, you know, technology or market drivers. So you know, this roadmap is only as good as it is today until you know, something changes tomorrow. And we recognize that this is going to have to be dynamic and evolving. So due to the complexity of it, we decided to basically bucket the program into six different component layers so that we can really get a sense of how one feeds into the next as I kind of talked a little bit about the pyramid before. So, the first one is physical infrastructure. Number two is sensing and measurement. The third is communication. Fourth is data management and analytics. Number five is control and optimization. And then finally, the last number six is business and regulatory. And so all of our initiatives fit underneath one of those six components.   Trevor Freeman  22:12 Okay, so let's dive in and pull them apart that I'd love to kind of talk more about each of those. And just for our listeners, we're going to keep this fairly high level, because we don't have time to get into super detail on all six. But the plan is actually to take future episodes and maybe pull apart some of these in more detail. So if you're super interested in what we're talking about today, don't worry, we'll dive into more detail. So, let's start at the top with physical infrastructure. What does that entail?   Jenna Gillis  22:40 So the physical infrastructure component really targets the challenges and opportunities posed by electric vehicles electrification, climate vulnerability on the grid itself. So, we talked a little bit about the fact that we need to start adapting, or continue to adapt our asset management practices to address these factors. So you know, what does that mean that that's things like I talked about before about increasing the rate that we add new technology or remote switches and sensors and things like that into the system. And I talked before about resiliency and flexibility. And a corporate part of this is, you know, incorporating an increased level of climate risk consideration into our, you know, acid assessments and our plan for renewal or replacement of those devices.   Trevor Freeman  23:28 Yeah, so this part of the strategy is really about, you know, the actual devices in the field that are going to be installed the new technology that we want to get out into the field on our grid. Let's pick apart that last piece a little bit, the climate vulnerability, how are we also trying to, you know, for lack of a better word, harden our grid, or make it a little more resilient to some of the weather events we're seeing?   Jenna Gillis  23:52 Yeah, so I think everybody's probably well aware that it's not about, you know, if we're going to see, you know, another large weather round, it's about, it's about when. We've always incorporated those types of things into our asset planning. But now, the frequency and severity of these things is becoming higher and higher. So, what we started looking at is, you know, reliability has always been a priority. But now we're shifting gears a little bit to resilience. So, I talked about that before. And that's more about withstanding and recovering quickly from the events, like I said, we know they're going to happen. So how are we going to make sure that we can recover as quickly as possible. So, with looking at that, we're looking at things like reviewing our design elements, like strengthening the poles that we install or doing strategic undergrounding and sections of overhead lines that we know have a high exposure, and like subsequent consequence of failure. So, we are building all of these strategies now as well into that asset management in the deployment of what we're putting out into the field.   Trevor Freeman  24:50 Great. And again, just for our listeners, you know, I want to talk more about what we're doing and what can be done on that climate resiliency piece. So there, you know, keep your eyes open for further episode on that down the road. Okay, so the next piece you talked about is sensing and measurement at a high level, talk us through what that what that means and how that contributes to overall grid effectiveness.   Jenna Gillis  25:13 Yeah, so sensing and measurement is more than just installing the physical devices that we kind of talked about in the previous component. And its devices like sensors to detect faults and report back and where there might be disturbances or outages on the system. And it's more than just meters on customer homes, it's about integrating that data back into our grid management systems. So, you know, our ultimate goal is to have real time access to all of the data from our customer meters, you know, that's over 350,000 meters. But to achieve this, we need to have a robust strategy to transfer that information store that information, at the right frequency, meaning in terms of, you know, how often do we get the information from these devices? And how often do we receive that information back in the office for all of the different use cases, and there’s, you know, there's hundreds of use cases for that information. So, this does represent a significant shift in the way that we're using our meters right now. Right now, when I talk about our customer meters, we take a reading from those once every 24 hours, with hourly level of granular data. So, it's basically once every 24 hours, we get 24 points of data. You know, and we're talking about what we want to do with grid modernization, we're looking at, you know, reading those meters, you know, once a minute with more information. So you can see there is a huge shift in the way that we've got kind of the infrastructure set up around those things.   Trevor Freeman  26:43 When you talk about those numbers, so 24 data points every or every day, changing to potentially reading every minute. Remember, we're multiplying that by 350,000. So that's a huge amount of data. And, you know, Jenna and I are working for hydro Ottawa here, one of the sorts of medium size utilities in the province of Ontario, we've got other utilities in the sector that have millions of customers. So, the importance of data and how we handle that, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute is certainly really high on the priority list. You know, some of what you mentioned there sounds a lot like what we call advanced metering infrastructure 2.0 or AMI 2.0. So, for that kind of in the industry that know what that is, that's maybe the next generation of meters, we might be talking about, how does that differ from the existing smart meters that exist all across Ontario? And that doesn't mean they exist everywhere in North America, but at least in Ontario, we've got kind of what we call AMI 1.0. What does AMI 2.0 look like? And how does that change things?   Jenna Gillis  27:50 Yeah, so there's kind of one key critical factor, AMI 1.0 was rolled out with, you know, one main purpose, that's billing. And so, our meters are set and our communication infrastructure is set up to again, report back on a frequency that makes sense for monthly billing. So, like I said, in other words, that's a once a day reading. And so that data is stored and available the next day, so not, not what we would call real time. So, this information is incredibly valuable. And we do use it for planning and supporting operational processes. But it doesn't allow us to respond real time to the conditions on the system, right down to that customer level. So, AMI 2.0, which is basically fate. You know, the next step from that first level of having, you know, meters that we can read remotely from the office is more just about than, like I mentioned before about installing sensors, it's not just changing those meters, we talked about the data requirement. And so, it's also a substantial upgrade to our communication infrastructure to get that higher volume of data back from the field. And what are we going to use that information for? Like, why is it important to have it real time as opposed to you know, the next day, it's because these meters will be able to give us things like a power off notification. So, we talked before about the fact that we do still rely right now on our customers calling in to let us know that they are out of power in the future with AMI 2.0. The intention will be that these meters will report right back into that outage management system. And we will know as soon as that meter sends a signal, say, Oh, I've lost power. The second piece of that is we'd want to know when your power comes back on. So, we're going through we're doing our restoration efforts, we want to make sure that we're picking everybody up. So we'd also be able to get a signal coming back on and say like yep, I just turned back on. So having this visibility right down to the customer level gives us so much more flexibility in terms of how we can respond to the system in real time. The other one it also opens a whole bunch of other future use cases such as you know, we talked about unlocking benefits for our customers as well but real time data but their energy uses and you know, providing additional tools or software to help them look at their consumption and overall save money on their bill. So, I'm then that's a future step. We're not there today, but the work is on the way to achieve that. And that, you know, those are some of our guiding principles around what we're doing for grid modernization. Yeah, really highlights how powerful it can be to know what's happening in real time at every, you know, end use of our entire grid, every customer knowing exactly where the issues are exactly when they get resolved or don't get results. So that's pretty powerful information. So, as we've kind of talked about, there's a natural tie over from having that sensing and metering equipment out in the field, gathering that data, and then getting that data back to our system office where we can use it. And that's where communication comes in. So, tell us about the critical role that our communication technology will play.  So today, hydro has a communication network that we've spent our entire service to territory, and it uses a bunch of different technologies or different channels like cellular networks, radio, fiber phone lines, so we've got a diverse communication network that sees across our service territory. So again, kind of parallel in the way that we've been deploying some of these smart technologies. This strategy is very effective and accommodating the sensing and measurement control devices that we've been doing today. But again, we are talking about an increase in data we're talking about an increase of physical devices means that we need faster higher capacity methods to get that data from the field back into our systems. So again, this is all part of the strategy that we're focused on is making sure that we have this backbone communication infrastructure ready to connect these devices into. We don't have all the answers on that yet. But we know roughly where we need to get to. And again, it's part of this roadmap to make sure that we achieve those objectives.   Trevor Freeman  31:47 So, when we talk about communication and sending data over communication networks, increasingly, we all know, the challenges with cybersecurity. And people may be wondering, how are we going to protect all this data that's now flowing, that's giving real time information about you know, power use on our grid? How does cybersecurity fit in within this plan?   Jenna Gillis  32:08 So, we do have a robust cybersecurity standard that we follow, and a dedicated team who looks after these things for us. So, as we know, as the grid becomes more and more connected, cybersecurity becomes an even more crucial part of this. And it's a critical factor. And we you know, we mentioned it as one of the core objectives of the program is to, you know, maintain our security. So if you think about it in the past, when we went and you know, just installed a device that, you know, somebody could go in and control from a bucket truck, you didn't have to incorporate cybersecurity standards, you didn't have to, you know, have a device, go through the multiple levels of checks and validation that we have to do things today. So, it is another shift in the way that we operate, right is that and again, we need to keep pace on the technology standpoint of things, not just the physical device.   Trevor Freeman  32:58 Totally. Okay. So, there's definitely a bit of a flow here, because we talked about the data in the field, we talked about communication. Now we've got that data coming into hydronic, into our system office, we kind of move into that next piece, you talked about data management and analytics. How does all this data help us transform our grid? What do we do with this data once we get it?   Jenna Gillis  33:22 Yeah, so raw data coming from the field isn't overly valuable, what you need to do is you need to have an established framework for that information to allow the users to access that in real time. And so, when I'm talking users right now, you know I'm talking about it could be a number of different meanings. But today, we're really talking about our hydro Ottawa control room operators, I'm talking about, you know, our planning teams, our operations teams, and our maintenance systems information. So, you need to make sure that you have a framework to access that information in meaningful formats. So, you know, eventually, once we get a sense of what this information is, and we have a robust strategy around it, we could be providing that information to customers for their energy management systems and use cases like we talked about before. So, the other piece is as we collect more and more information on the condition and use of our assets, we can refine and enhance our decision-making planning operations, asset management becomes more and more formed. So, each one of these pieces of data is critical, but you need to make sure that you have a strong framework around it. So, you are gleaning the value from that information.   Trevor Freeman  34:24 Yeah, I mean, you're kind of talking about analytics here. And, you know, analytics is essentially combing through that vast amount of raw data and pulling out insights to make smart evidence-based decisions. I know I'm asking you to kind of look in a crystal ball here, but what kinds of insights are you expecting to get once we have access to all this data?   Jenna Gillis  34:45 Yeah, so really, the expectation is, the more information we have about how the grid operates and performs under a variety of different conditions. We'll be better able to plan and optimize that configuration when I talked before about you know that grid resiliency, so What is the best configuration of our of our network? Where do we have problems downstream that we maybe didn't see before. But now we see. So, we can start setting things up differently. It will help us enhance our ability to appropriately size and prioritize our investments and make better use of the existing assets that we have. So, in light of all these uncertainties we got about electric vehicles electrification and climate risks. The more information we have at our fingertips, the quicker we're going to be able to respond and adjust our strategies to keep up with those market drivers.   Trevor Freeman  35:34 Yeah, you. So, asset utilization is a really fascinating piece. And again, you know, this isn't the episode to dive into that. But just quickly, for our listeners, you know, you may be familiar that utility companies have to design to peak load. So, we need to be able to provide the highest amount of power that people need, whether it's a hot, sunny summer afternoon, and everyone's got their air conditioning on. But while we're not using that peak load, assets are sitting underutilized, we're not using the capacity we need. And the more of that capacity we can use, the better. And by putting in some of this technology. By gaining those insights, if we can do appropriate, switching or better planning to utilize our assets better, everybody wins, our grid is more effective, it's more economical. And I think we're all in better shape. So great to see where we're going with that. The next component you talked about is control and optimization. So, we talked about how we control the grid today and how it's kind of a manual process. We have, you know, really smart folks sitting in our system office who are making important decisions. How does that control evolve with this strategy?   Jenna Gillis  36:48 Yeah, so this layer, this control, and optimization is really about using all of that data to make informed decisions. So one, we're actually undergoing one big transformation, transformative project right now. And you referenced it earlier, it's our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. So what this is, is it's really a complete modernization of the software tools used by our control room operators. So the individuals sitting at the desk watching the state of the grid 24/7 365. So to give you a sense of what they're using today to see that picture is the operators have to interact with at least five separate systems right now that are not integrated to gain all that full picture. So the intent of this project, and the main driver is to paint one pane of glass for the operators, it's amalgamating those five separate systems into one view, to give them better insights into the status system. So we're going to be calcinating, these five systems, but also then incorporating more of this field data that we've talked about collecting as well. So, some of the things that we kind of lock with the advanced distribution management system that we aren't capable of doing today is working towards implementing a fault location, isolation and service restoration scheme. So, if you're in the industry, that's well known as FLISAR. So what this is   Trevor Freeman  38:06 a fantastic name, by the way.   Jenna Gillis  38:08 Yeah, what this is really about is two way communication to and from these field devices and sensors to get a sense of where we might be seeing issues on the distribution system. So where we have faults, or where we have outages occurring, this system will then it's an analytic platform that takes all the information back and it can propose to the operators switching to restore as many customers as we can and isolate that faulted section with line. This future step of that is once we get comfortable, and we know the system and the analytics are working effectively is to allow the system to do it automatically. So instead of proposing switching to an operator who can make the decision and then perform the switching or roll a field crew, eventually we'd be able to do this automatically. So once the system is configured, and we've got all those remotely operable devices in the field, we would allow the system to make automatic decisions and restore and isolate the faulted sections   Trevor Freeman  39:03 So I mean, you're talking about analyzing data and making decisions automatically. It's kind of sounds like AI a little bit, which, of course, is a pretty, you know, buzzword these days in a lot of different sectors. Does, does AI come into play here in terms of making decisions and controlling things on the grid?   Jenna Gillis  39:22 Yeah, so I mean, we have a number of use cases that we're looking at right now with AI. And obviously, the more data we get, the more opportunities we have to leverage technology and AI. So some of the things we're looking at right now is things like predicting and forecasting demand levels or load levels that are on the distribution grid based on you know, a number of inputs, so like the grid status, what's the weather going to be? What did you know? What was the historical loading and things like that? And when you have multiple factors like that, that feed into, you know, what is your customers load going to be? You need something like AI to be able to digest all of that information and come up with recommendations another one This is just analyzing multiple sensors and control boards to help us predict failures. So the more information we're getting back on the assets, we can use AI to help us explore build models to help us identify exceptions in those large amounts of data. And in order to be able to flag potential failures, and allow us to intervene and course correct before, you know, they potentially cause an outage or something like that.   Trevor Freeman  40:23 Yeah, so that would be and correct me if I'm, if I'm wrong here and interpreting this wrong. That's like, taking a bunch of data points on our existing equipment is running, maybe you know that the temperature that we're seeing, or the loading on that equipment and how that relates to its normal operating load, and be able to say, we think based on the operating conditions, this piece of equipment is likely to fail faster than otherwise it would, is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah,   Jenna Gillis  40:49 Yeah, exactly. Or even in real time, this piece of equipment is going to overload. And so you need to take intervention and move load around door, something like that as well. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.   Trevor Freeman  40:58 Yeah. And all of that data. I mean, that's all things that we know how to do. But no human can possibly do that in real time with the amount of data coming in. And so that's where some of this advanced technology and AI, artificial intelligence really comes into play to help us pull that out of the massive sea of data that we're going to be getting.  Okay. Okay, so the last component, you mentioned it, you know, on the surface, it might seem like a bit of an outlier business and regulatory, but I think it really ties it all together. And it's, again, one of those foundational pieces. So, you know, that the electricity sector is highly regulated, as our listeners probably know, it's extremely complex to navigate. It has been accused, in the past of, you know, not being very conducive to innovation and change. What are some of the priority areas that you've identified, whether that's, you know, dialogue with our regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, or just, you know, regulations and policies, internal or external to our organization that that you think, need to come into play to make this modernization happen?   Jenna Gillis  42:06 Yeah, the whole objective of kind of the business and regulatory stream through good modernization is about building a holistic approach to build operational structures and processes to be able to address and respond to these dynamic market drivers. So, one of our big priorities right now is to raise awareness of this of this approach. And the fact that we're broadening our investment categories beyond what you know, I'd consider to be those traditional asset condition or reliability or end of life types of drivers to know, include and layer into it these system observability, these control points and this resiliency, which is a shift in terms of you know, how we we've justified or how a regulator has looked at the way that we do business in the past. But we also make sure we need to look internally. So, it's not just about looking externally and making sure that we're aligned with our regulator, but it's about looking at our internal business process to make sure that we're aligned to deliver the value that we've set out for the grid modernization objectives. So, we need to make sure that we have mechanisms to be able to measure our success, and feed that back into continuous improvement I talked about the roadmap is, is needing to be a dynamic, so we need to make sure that we're monitoring our progress towards the delivering of those chapters, and have ability to stop and pivot where we need to when we need to   Trevor Freeman  43:24 this kind of opened the door for new business models or new way of doing things? And are there like specific pilots that we're considering or specific initiatives?   Jenna Gillis  43:35 Yeah, there's, there's a lot going on in the electricity sector right now, one of the big kinds of hot topics right now is that there's indications that local distribution companies may need to in the future operate in a similar capacity to the way the Independent Electricity System Operator behaves. So, the ISO they control and dispatch the bulk systems. So, they look at they do forecasting on you know, the Ontario energy needs, and they throttle on and off generation and those types of things, the thought is, this is going to be needed at the local level. So, they look at you know, hydro, it was service territory level, we may need to look at dispatching generation and doing dynamic load management and things like that. And this is this is a holistic change to the way that we operate right now. And so, we need to be able to future proof ourselves to move down that path if that's where things go and dispatching energies resources. I said it kind of as you know, it's just it's one thing, but it's really, it's we talked about a little bit of a comprehensive analysis system to take in all of those inputs and understand forecasting and where things are going to be including an economic factor and all the different customer types, including, you know, the widespread adoption of electric vehicles or battery storage, so it can get to be quite a complex system.   Trevor Freeman  44:59  Yeah. it kind of sounds here, like you're talking about the distribution system operator model or DSO. And, and again, you know, like I've said a couple of times, I think there's a future conversation or future episode about that. But it's like you say, having the distributors, the local distribution companies, able to make decisions on how energy is used within our grid, and then that feeds up into how I saw was running the kind of broader provincial grid. So, I'll put a pin in that one. And we'll come back to that on a on a future episode.   Jenna Gillis  45:31 And, yeah, and so something that's important for us to understand too, is if we do go down the road of a DSO, we need to know where and what could impact our operations or where we could have those triggers or throttles on the distribution system. So right now, we're undertaking a pilot program as well, looking at EV charging, and we've called it EV everywhere. And I'm sure everybody's well aware that EVs are, you know, could be a huge dynamic load that show up on our system anywhere at any time whenever, whenever somebody wants to plug in their vehicle. And there's also talked about using EV batteries as an energy source to feed back into the system to help grid capacity constraints. While that still might be a long way off, there are still solutions that we want to manage to leverage the Chargers. And we've looked at, you know, instead of having everybody come in and come home from and you know, after work, plug in their EV and start charging at 5pm. And causing, you know, a new peak in our demand, looking to be able to stagger that charging and whether that's staggered at local community level, whether that's needing to stagger at, we talked about a substation level or whether we need to stagger that at a whole hydro Ottawa service, territory capacity. So, EV everywhere is really looking at the use of artificial intelligence to help us make those predictions about where and when and how long EV charging needs are required and being able to manage those devices. So that it reduces the impact on our distribution network. And we talked about increase our asset utilization. And we're hoping to be able to push that beyond just the pilot stage that we're in today.   Trevor Freeman  47:05 Yeah, and really, that's, you know, for, for the end user, for our customers, that's going to help us remove barriers to you getting that EV and being able to charge at home or where you live or where you work. So that we're not having to modify the grid drastically in order to allow that, we want to make that process as easy as possible. And this is testing out a strategy to do that. So, Jenna, that's super fantastic to hear about this roadmap that you have. And I mean, look, the listeners out there who know me know that I'm pretty optimistic, and I'm pretty excited about this stuff. But I think it's important to highlight some of the risks. So, it's a great roadmap, it's a great plan, what could trip us up what could get in the way of us being able to implement the strategy and rolling it out as you envisioned it?   Jenna Gillis  47:56 I think the first one is that this is, this is large, this is transformative. This touches multiple business areas and, and is, is driven by multiple outside influences. So, we need to make sure that we've got holistic change management strategies, we need to look at the pace of change that we're implementing, and not necessarily on the distribution grid, but also on our systems, our process our people. So, we need time to make sure that when we introduce a large change that we have some settle in, we have some time to adjust and correct and, you know, keep that dynamic continuous improvement process, as we move from one, it's going to be moved from one change to the next set at pretty rapid pace over the next few years. And with all that change, we need to have the right people, we need the right people, we need the right skill set. And some of these skills are things that we haven't done before. So, these are new responsibilities, new skill sets to the organization, and I'm going to put a little plug in here is that we're hiring right now. So, take a look at our careers page. And if I've, if I've painted an exciting picture, and you want to be a part of this, take a look. We're hiring some of those skill sets today. And this stuff is going to span multiple years, right? So, I feel like in the past, we kind of had you know, like, oh, well, that's a five year program. And then and then you're done no like this is this is going to be a continuous evolution. And these can span multi years. And I talked about it before, we need to be able to adapt and pivot to meet the requirements of technology and our customers. And we need to expect that and so we need to build the that ability to stay dynamic through these multiyear programs. To make sure that, you know, we maybe we need to change what our grid modernization objectives are halfway through, and that's okay, we can do that.   Trevor Freeman  49:36 Yeah, I think if there's one kind of common theme that comes up in these conversations that I get to have as part of, as part of the show is this is big change that we're talking about here. This is sort of fundamental change within not just one organization within an entire sector and we're all trying to figure out how we do it, we've all got different ideas, and we're working together. And I think your point about, we need the right people to do that we need people that are really passionate about this and really smart, and see the opportunity to create that change and realize, hey, you know, the utility is not a bad spot to do that it's kind of at the epicenter of a lot of what we're doing here when it comes to energy. So great thoughts. So, I mean, that's kind of the end of the grid modernization question. So I don't know if now we get into the easier part of the conversation or the harder part. By we,   Jenna Gillis  50:35 you're talking, you're talking to an engineer. So, when we talk personal, it's harder than the techniques of the technology.   Trevor Freeman  50:42 Awesome. Yeah, I can, I can definitely relate. So we always end our show with the same questions to our guests. And it just kind of helps us learn a little bit more about you. So as long as you're okay with it, we're going to dive right in.   Jenna Gillis  50:56 Yeah, let's do it.   Trevor Freeman  50:58 So what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?   Jenna Gillis  51:01 So, I mean, I think I kind of already touched on it. And the fact that these were the more uncomfortable questions for me. One book that I read that I really enjoyed is as quiet the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking by Susan Cain. She has a TED talk, too. So, if you want to kind of get a short snippet of what she's talking about, but really, it's about dynamics of how our world emphasizes extraversion, and basically everything that we set up and everything we do, and so we need to make sure that we're allowing space for our introverts.   Trevor Freeman  51:31 Great, I like that. What about a movie or a show?   Jenna Gillis  51:35 So, I'm not a big movie person. But I've got a TV show. It's pretty niche. It's called the Curse of Oak Island, I'm sure probably not very many people know what I'm talking about. But I followed the story from the beginning. So, the show started airing a long time ago. It's basically about a 200-year-old treasure hunting mystery in Nova Scotia, touches on archaeology and some potential connections right back to the Knights Templar. So, I've become pretty invested in it. It's one show   Trevor Freeman  52:04 is your next vacation to Halifax to go and check out the Oak Island and find this treasure?   Jenna Gillis  52:09 You know, I think it would be pretty cool maybe once like to go and see what they're doing and like the size and scale of what they're doing, but I wouldn't necessarily dedicate a whole trip to it.   Trevor Freeman  52:21 Good to know well on that note, what if somebody offered you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world? Where would you go?   Jenna Gillis  52:29 Yeah, so not Nova Scotia. I'd love to be able to be out and see the northern lights. So somewhere like Iceland or Greenland, I think, seeing something totally different than what I'm used to here in here in Ottawa.   Trevor Freeman  52:44  very cool. Who is someone that you admire?   Jenna Gillis  52:47 So I feel like this is going to be really cliche given that Taylor Swift has recently released another album. But Taylor Swift, I think she's incredibly powerful and positive female influence and think she's a great role model. She's got strong big business strategy and authenticity. So, I think she's, she's a great role model for girls to be looking up to.   Trevor Freeman  53:12 Yeah, I'm, I'm currently I'm not ashamed to admit I'm currently going through her eras tour with my kids right now. We're watching it and kind of little bits and pieces here. And while we're watching, and I'm texting my nieces, because they're big. They're big Swifties. So that's a great example. And finally, and you're a great person to, to answer this question being kind of right out in the weeds of the energy change. What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?   Jenna Gillis  53:42 It's really about the pace of change. So I, you know, we talked about like, I've been with hydro water for about 16 years now. And I feel like we've always been saying it's coming. It's coming. It's right on the horizon, right. So it's here, we're seeing it, we've always been kind of forecasting and wondering when it was going to hit and it's here. So I love that we need to be innovative. I love that we need to rethink the way that we're doing things. And I'm super excited to start breaking down silos and building these cohesive strategies and working together to problem solve, because it's more important now than ever to, to build that integration with, you know, everybody on the team. So that's what I'm super excited about.   Trevor Freeman  54:18 Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. That's, that's what keeps me coming into work every day to I really like them. Jenna, this has been a really great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights with us on what hydro Ottawa is doing when it comes to grid modernization and just kind of sharing your experience and your expertise on how we're changing and getting ready for the future. I really appreciate it.   Jenna Gillis  54:39 Well, thanks, Trevor. Hopefully I did. I did some justice to what we're doing. And hopefully I've piqued some interest in diving deeper into some of these very specific initiatives that we've got underway.   Trevor Freeman  54:51 Absolutely. And don't be surprised if I reach back out to you to come and dive deeper on some of those as well. So we'll have you back on another time.   Jenna Gillis  54:58 Perfect. Thanks a lot, Trevor. Appreciate it.   Trevor Freeman  55:01 Thanks. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review and really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or our guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydroottawa.com  

Ontario's electricity sector is evolving, as the province navigates the transition to cleaner energy amidst rising demand. In thinkenergy episode 135, we explore the grid's structure and key players, highlighting the crucial role of distributors (Local Distribution Companies or LDCs) in facilitating this transition. Guest Teresa Sarkesian, President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association (EDA), sheds light on LDCs' frontline efforts and pivotal contributions shaping the energy landscape. Related links   Teresa Sarkesian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-sarkesian-53898613/   Electricity Distributors Association: https://www.eda-on.ca/  Green Button information: https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/green-button  Electrification and energy transition panel report: https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontarios-clean-energy-opportunity-report-electrification-and-energy-transition-panel  Ontario Electricity Support Program: https://ontarioelectricitysupport.ca/  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod     ...   Transcript: Trevor Freeman  0:07  Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at think energy at hydro ottawa.com Hi, everyone, welcome back. Now it's no secret that Ontario's electricity sector is transforming rapidly as it moves to both decarbonize the grid itself, you know, we have a very clean grid in Ontario, but it's not totally carbon free. And to support the growing demand for electricity as our customers across the province, take steps to electrify and change how they use energy. The show is all about exploring those changes, among other things, and today is no different. But before we dive into our conversation today, I think it would be helpful for me to spend just a few quick minutes on some basics about how our electricity grid is structured in Ontario, and who some of the key players are. Now I know some of our listeners will know this already, but it can be hard to keep track of all those key players. And Ontario's structure is a little different than some of the neighboring jurisdictions no two jurisdictions are exactly alike. So, a refresher is never a bad thing. Now the most basic description is that electricity is largely generated at central generation facilities. So, think nuclear power plants are your electric generating stations, some gas fired generating stations and large-scale wind and solar installations. We call these entities generators simple as that. That electricity is then transmitted across the province in an interconnected grid of high voltage transmission lines, which also connect to other jurisdictions such as neighboring provinces and states, and Ontario, Hydro One runs the transmission network. Now you've probably seen this transmission network. These would be the large metal towers that you see out in the middle of a field when you're driving along the highway or in rural areas that have electricity wires strung way up high in the air. The last stage before it gets to the end user is called distribution. So, this is where electricity is taken from those high voltage lines stepped down to a usable voltage for residential and commercial customers via transformers and substations, and then distributed over a network of overhead and underground wires, then these would be the wires that you would see at the top of those wooden or composite poles that are along the side of the road in your neighborhood. The entities that run this distribution part are called distributors, again, simple as that. So, there's a few other key players that are worth mentioning here. Energy Policy is primarily the jurisdiction of the provincial government, who sets the general direction and associated rules and regulations accordingly. The Ontario Energy Board or OEB is the regulatory body who governs what all those other players do and enacts the government mandate. And finally, at least for today's purposes, we have the system operator. It's called The Independent Electricity System Operator in Ontario, or IESO, who runs the system. So, if you're in Windsor, Ontario, or Ottawa, or North Bay, and you want to turn on your air conditioner, or plug your EV in to charge, the IESO is responsible for making sure there's enough power on the grid to handle that load. So, I hope everyone is still with me and feel free to pause and do some jumping jacks if that was a lot to take in. Our conversation today is going to be focused on the role of the distributor. So, for full disclosure, as you know, I work for hydro Ottawa who is one of those distributors, we serve most electricity customers in the City of Ottawa, and the neighboring village of Casselman and in Ontario, you will often hear distributors referred to as local distribution companies or LDCs. So, forgive me if I slip into that acronym throughout the conversation today, that's really just the sort of common name that we refer to those distributors as. But I'll try to mix it up and make sure that, that I'm explaining that acronym throughout as well. So, the distributor is really the front line, the customer facing entity of the entire electricity system. If you are an electricity customer, and you think about the electricity system, you are probably thinking about your distributor. Chances are you get your bill from a distributor, even though for most customers, most of what you pay on that bill doesn't actually go to the LDC. Some of it stays with your local distribution company, but most of it goes to the transmitter to the generator, to the IESO etc. When the power goes out, it's probably your LDC that you call and it's your LDC that will give you a restoration time. Sometimes outages are caused by issues up the line, so to speak in the transmission portion of the grid. But often the issue is a localized one. And it's your LDC that is identifying the problem and fixing it, whether that means rolling a truck to string new cable, or performing switching to work around the problem. And finally, it's your LDC that is really on the frontlines of the energy transition. While all parts of the grid must then have started to change, the LDCs are really working hand in hand with our customers to identify where and how fast and new demand is needed to bridge that gap between customers and policymakers to enable more and more renewable generation. And also to determine what new technologies or programs we need to pilot and scale up. And it's really the LDCs that are driving change in the way that electricity is managed at the individual customer level moving forward. So, to help us make some sense of this, I'm happy to have Teresa Sarkesian on the show today. Teresa is the president and CEO of the electricity Distributors Association, which is a role that she's held since 2016. This is actually Teresa second time on the show the first being back in December 2021. So we're happy to have Teresa back, Teresa, welcome back to the show.   Teresa Sarkesian  6:23  Thanks so much, Trevor. I'm really delighted to be back.   Trevor Freeman  6:27  Yeah, we're glad to have you. So, like I said, you were back on our show in 2021. I don't know if it's because of how COVID has changed our lives or if this is just the way things go. But sometimes, you know, weeks seem like years. So, 2021 is a long time ago. Let's start by refreshing our listeners on the role and mandate of the electricity Distributors Association.   Teresa Sarkesian  6:49  Sure, thing so the electricity Distributors Association, or the EDA our little acronym represents Ontario's public and private electric utilities that distribute electricity to 5.4 million homes, businesses and institutional customers across the province. And I should note that those 5.4 million customers really refers to build accounts so you have families that are behind a build account. So effectively the millions and millions of Ontarians and businesses that operate and live here are customers of our utilities. And as you know our members are on the front lines of power, and have developed a strong trust with their customers by providing safe, reliable and affordable service for over 100 years. The EDA itself provides analysis and networking and advocacy for our members to ensure that the energy policy direction and framework in Ontario is fair and balanced, supporting the financial viability of utilities to deliver service and ensuring affordability for customers. And long term, we are looking to ensure that our local distribution company members can become the premier energy solution providers to their customers, and that they're able to provide the value-added services that customers are already expecting from them but are going to grow with the energy transformation and electrification in the future.   Trevor Freeman  8:09  Yeah, it's kind of like I said, when people think about the electricity sector, they're probably thinking about their distributor. And the EDA is kind of that common voice for those distribution companies. So, you first joined the EDA back in 2009, and have been the president and CEO since 2016. So, we'll look ahead and talk about the future in a minute. But before we do that, tell us about how things have changed so far during your tenure. How are things different from 2009 When you first joined the organization?   Teresa Sarkesian  8:40  Yeah, and you know, this is almost like perfect timing, Trevor, because I've been at the association now for 15 years, I'm just marking my 15-year anniversary. So, feels really apropos to kind of reflect and look back. So, I want to break down my answer into two parts. So, I'm going to talk to you about some, I guess, just my own personal observations about the electricity system at large. And then I'm going to talk more about the changes in distribution. But some of the changes that I thought were really quite significant and profound, sort of when I joined the industry in 2009, I joined at a time when there was the Green Energy Act, and the province was looking to connect all kinds of renewable energy generation to the electricity grid. So that was fairly significant. Another thing that was happening with the province is that they closed down coal fired generation. That was pretty massive. In fact, I think, at the time, it was the largest kind of carbon reduction initiative in North America. And I think even to this date today, I think it still is something that Ontario really has to be proud of. Another thing that you know, at the time, I think that was you know, fairly significant in 2015 is just the expectation of what the demand would be. What was interesting, sort of like the past for 15 years, the demand from customers for electricity was actually flat or declining. And that's all changed. Now. 15 years later, we're, we're now forecasting, massive increases in in demand of energy, which could potentially be doubling in the future. And the other point I'd like to make is just the nuclear renaissance that we're having. I think when I joined the sector in 2009, I'll tell you, I think the public opinion of nuclear was actually quite low. And that's been completely turned around lots of geopolitical events around the world, I think, have driven that. And now that nuclear is having a huge Renaissance. And you're seeing, you know, lots of new investments in nuclear. And we're not talking about shutting down reactors anymore. We're talking about refurbishing and expanding. So those are some of the things that I've observed over the last 15 years that have really changed. And for local distribution companies, I think what I have seen is a growing expectation by both government and the regulators for electric utilities to do more to both support the grid reliability and meet growing expectation from customers. So, I started in the sector in 2009, it was right on the brink of implementation of smart meters, and time of use. And what was interesting is that was mandated, there were very few jurisdictions in the world that actually had mandated smart meters and time of use pricing. So again, Ontario is was one of the first. And so that was a big change for LDCs. To move from, you know, smart meters and having to bring in that technology and also support the technology of time of use. I did mention the Green Energy Act at the time, we suddenly had to connect 1000s and 1000s, of new solar and wind generation, as well. And that was all new. There were no protocols, there were no standards for that. So that was fairly significant as well. And when I kind of fast forward to I guess, more recently, there have been a lot of changes from government, I think they've really supported our industry, they understand the trust that we have, with our customers. And they've implemented, you know, a number of new changes in terms of rate structures, they've asked us to implement ultra low-rate pricing that can support overnight electric vehicle charging. And they've also asked us to introduce a green button digital platform that allows customers to download their energy data and share with third parties for you know, different assessments and tools for lowering energy costs. But it's all not, you know, unicorns and kittens, there's challenges to for our sector, grid resilience was, you know, not really, people talked about it in 2009, but not like they're talking about it now, because of climate change. And we are seeing more frequent storms, causing, you know, obviously, outages for the customer, and also significant damage to the distribution grid. And I know that hydro Ottawa has faced more than its fair share of very destructive storms over the past few years, we have Yes, I can't remember which Victoria Day weekend where we had, I didn't ever know how to say it the derecho or the derecho. So there, we weren't getting storms we've never even heard of before. And unfortunately, I think that is our new normal. So, grid resilience is something that we are very concerned about, and we need to make sure we've got the appropriate investments for that. So those are just a few of the highlights that, you know, when I came into the sector sort of things that were kind of ramping up, and then what's happening now, but I guess what I could say, the commonality is there's constant change in the sector. And what I'm seeing going forward is that change is going to be accelerated.   Trevor Freeman  13:40  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating to listen to you lay it all out like that. Thinking back to 15 years ago, it's hard to even remember, you know, not having smart meters, having meters that really just ticked forward and measured your consumption over the course of a month, and someone would come and read that. And, you know, having declining or even flat demand profiles that aren't increasing is so different from the world that we are in today. But I think what you said there at the end is really important. We are in our industry, an organization that knows about change, we're constantly changing, which helps us as we look forward into your point, we're going to see that level of change and the pace of change accelerate. So, I think that sets us up pretty well. So, let's start to look forward, then I know that the EDA is about to launch a new vision paper. So, we're going to dive into some of the details. But maybe let's start by kind of a high-level summary of what is the vision that you are trying to lay out with this paper?   Teresa Sarkesian  14:42  Okay, and no problem. So, I think what I want to start just give a little bit of background as to why we did this. We've done a couple of vision papers and implementation plans in the past. But you know, they were like seven, eight years ago and things have changed a lot even in Seven or eight years. So, what we've been seeing, obviously, I think the big change over the last few years has been the big focus on meeting Net Zero targets in 2050, that we are going to get to net zero in terms of our greenhouse gas emissions. Not only in Canada, but this is actually a bit of a global commitment, you know, for countries that have signed on to that objective. So, what happens when you set up, you know, those big audacious goals? You have all kinds of organizations and entities looking at how are we going to get there, how much it's going to cost? What do we need to do to get there? And so, when we started reviewing some of these publications, both in Ontario, Canada, and actually in other jurisdictions, they were very good. They talked about what supply mix that we need the investment in transmission, but almost 100% of the papers, Trevor, if you can believe this, just neglected distribution, no one talked about distribution, they didn't talk about how distribution is going to have to change what the investments would be. And then we'll so we said it's going to be critical for us to identify the electric utility role and the energy transition, and how the sector will need to be grid ready to support electrification, economic development, grid resilience, and customer preferences. So, we view that LDCs are going to be pivotal in enabling Ontario's low carbon economy, navigating the challenges posed by climate policies, electrification trends, and these evolving customer demands. And with Ontario's growing economy and the demands for housing intensify, LDCs must innovate to effectively meet these accelerating electricity needs and changing preferences. And right now, we've seen the ISO is predicting significant consumption growth from 144 terawatt hours in 2023, to 240 terawatt hours and 2050 not quite double, but it's getting close. And so, this rapid growth demands urgent attention to adopt new strategies and to ensure that the local distribution companies can make the necessary investments in grid enhancements to expand the capacity and capability of the distribution system. So, while reliability and affordability remain Paramount customers do expect additional value from their utility service. And, you know, we are seeing all sorts of things that are happening, you know, such as the need for swift electric vehicle charging installation, and other upgrades that will increase the electrical load. We see that LDCs are more frequently interacting with businesses that seek utility partners to achieve their energy management, sustainability and ESG goals. And in parallel, the LDC must prepare to respond to increase climate change induced extreme weather events. So, recognizing the essential role of LDCs in the energy transition, we've worked in collaboration with industry experts to outline a vision of the role of utilities, so they can enable economic development, housing growth and electrification. And the report identifies urgent and practical steps that LDCs in partnership with the government, and its agencies must take in the near term to achieve the benefits of this transition. So, what you'll see in the paper is recommendations related to the need for clear policy direction on regulatory frameworks to support LDCs in becoming grid ready, and with a continued focus on affordability and enabling a customer choice and opportunity. And we also discuss issues like workforce needs. And we also emphasize the role of human capital in enabling technological advancements. So that's very high level what it is, and I will get into it a bit more as we have our discussion further.   Trevor Freeman  18:41  Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it of the entire sector is changing at all levels. But what you're really doing is laying out that vision that roadmap for the distributors, in particular, and I think that's great. Maybe like, who is the audience for this paper? Who are you kind of directing this at?   Teresa Sarkesian  18:59  Well, we're still putting the crossing the T's and dotting the I's., but I think it's about 80 pages. So, it's not going to be for everyone, obviously, you know, government decision makers, government, policymakers, people that work in their regulatory agencies and our energy board, the Independent Electricity System Operator, we did try to make it accessible. There is an executive summary that's about two or three pages, which I think will be of great interest to a lot of people to read. And I think it gives a very kind of a high-level overview of what's in the document. So that's something that we're trying to do. And, you know, obviously our LTC members are an audience as well. They've been working with us hand in glove the last few months we've had extensive member meetings we had a board committee that helped steer this paper. But you know, ultimately, the paper is really focused on our customers because its customers and businesses that are driving a lot of this change for the future, whether it's businesses that are on their own journey on environmental, social and governance ESG objectives, and they're looking for more low carbon communities to invest in its customers who are very interested in EV charging, and maybe what the opportunity for the batteries can be to sell that storage back to the grid. It's, it's really the customers that are driving this change.   Trevor Freeman  20:31  Right Yeah, and I mean, the nature of this medium is I don't know who's out there listening. But I'd encourage, you know, all of our listeners, when this comes out, take a look at it and get some insight into kind of how the distributors role is laid out there. So, let's dive into some of the details. You know, you outline obviously, some of the traditional roles and functions of the LDCs. So, from maintaining, owning and maintaining the infrastructure, the poles and wires, and doing customer metering and billing, that stuff's not going away, we're going to keep doing those things. But you also highlight some of these emerging roles that have begun to appear, or that we'll see in the next couple of years, you know, a more of a focus on distributed energy resources, like solar on roofs, for example, that LDCs are going to have to work to both enable as well as integrate into our own systems. It's going to include things like more customer programs, and rate design, etc. I'm curious, you know, how are LDCs going to balance that traditional role that we've already been doing, along with this rapidly new expanding set of roles that we need to tackle?   Teresa Sarkesian  21:38  That's a great question, Trevor. So, look, LDCs will continue, as we always have been to be responsible for safe, reliable and affordable delivery of electricity to customers, customers can count on us to do that 24/7. And even with all these anticipated grid expansions, we're not going to be shut down, if the critic dispatches so, you know, we're experts at multitasking in our sector, and we will continue to do so. And with the increases, as you mentioned, in distributed energy resources, and electrification, there are the pressures for us to adapt, modernize and change how we ensure the safety and reliability in the service to customers. And the emerging roles and responsibilities aren't something that's in the distant future. You know, as I mentioned before, changes the constant, we have been engaging in ongoing adaptation. And so, when I think about the future, and I think about what we call grid modernization, it really is part of the ongoing continuous improvement, and the pursuit of the digital utility of the future, that every utility is on that journey. So, you know, utilities have been bringing in new technologies, particularly related to information technology, communications, and digital solutions. And so, while we're in early stages, we are expecting our members to become more digitally based in the future, they're going to be introducing advanced distribution management systems to monitor the grid. And they're also going to have distributed energy resource management systems to monitor all the connections that are behind the meter. So, I think what is different now than in the past, is simply that the pace of change is being dramatically accelerated. So, for example, it took us about 100 years to get the grid to its current size, yet, we need to almost double the current grid in 25 years. So, we have to move four times as fast. And the grid is not going to be built with just simple poles and wires and one way energy flow like it has been for basically the last 100 years, it's going to be a lot more complex, we're going to see two-way energy flows, so it's not just us sending power to the customer one way, they're potentially going to be selling back their energy generation or their energy storage back onto the grid. So, we need to have that temerity, that two-way, power flow. So that's going to be a big change. And we also expect there to be a lot more customer interaction. They want to leverage their own generation and storage behind the meter. And we as utilities, want to be able to leverage that to help us with you know, reliability, Storm outage, other emergency situations. So, we see there's going to be a greater interactive relationship with customer than simply, you know, maybe sending a bill to them or offering them conservation programs, it's going to be much more dynamic than it has been in the past. And so, you know, over the last two decades, and we talked about this a bit already, the utility has been modernizing the system in response to government policy initiatives, regulatory requirements, and customer preferences. One other example, recently, utilities were required to implement something called green button. And we've been also engaging by bringing them more into the system through net metering. And a lot of our members are also involved in various pilot projects with the Independent Electricity System Operator and with Enercan to look at all kinds of new LTC models and functions. So, and you're going to see a lot of this actually, in our vision paper is that to really be effective, cost effective. To make sure this happens at the accelerated pace, we do need for there to be proactive policy and regulatory changes, to remove barriers and empower LDCs to embrace these new evolving roles in shaping the future of the energy sector. And as I mentioned before, customers are demanding it. And I want to point out a research report that came out by the International Energy Agency just late last year. And they made it very clear that in quite a number of countries around the world, the lack of the regulatory permission to provide more investments in the distribution system is now becoming a significant barrier to new renewable energy projects connecting on the system. And while we don't have that situation here in Ontario, if we don't start moving quickly, in terms of reforming the regulatory context, then we might be like some of these other countries, and we don't want to be that a barrier, you want to be able to enable what our customers want on the grid.   Trevor Freeman  26:07  Yeah, so I'm going to ask you a question about that last point in a minute. But I think your framing of the ways that the sector is going to change, and the way our customers are going to interact with us is going to change is really great. And it's something that you know, often comes up in conversation. And I often say, there is no single strategy or tool here, we can't solve the coming challenges with just more poles and wires. We can't solve it with just new innovative solutions, we need all of those things, we need more poles and wires. But we also need more programming, more innovation, more technology, we need to utilize those distributed energy resources out there on the grid. So, I think that's a great way to frame it. Okay, so let's talk about grid planning a little bit. So LDCs play a really key role in helping forecast the needs of the future, both for our own distribution systems, but also feeding up into those broader provincial needs. So, the insight that we gain from our customers, we pass up to the IESO, for example, so that they can do planning at the provincial level. Traditionally, this is a pretty consistent process. You know, in the past, we get a sense from municipalities and developers, how cities are going to expand and grow. And we've generally been able to count on the typical home using roughly the same amount of electricity as homes that are out there today. So, we account for a certain expansion of commercial customers based on the Intel that we get from those customers. And we know roughly what they're going to use. The problem is that model's kind of being turned on its head a little bit. So, we now need to account for even our existing customers increasing their load because they are electrifying or they want to add EV chargers. And new developments today are likely going to have increased demand compared to some of the historical developments, because we're going to see all electric communities or at the very least more electrified and uses. So I know you don't have a crystal ball yet that tells us exactly how this change is going to happen. But what are LDCs doing to adapt their long-term grid planning to account for this uncertainty?   Teresa Sarkesian  28:22  Yeah, you're so right, Trevor forecasting is getting more challenging. And I just want to start with a little story before I get into my answer about that. So, you know, electric vehicles are kind of the hot thing right now. And you know, although people I think are still on a waiting list for certain cars, there's lots of others that are available. And so, one of the concerns that our sector had was we didn't know where these electric vehicles were going to pop up. And we weren't getting any kind of pre advanced warning when people started making orders or, you know, advanced purchases for electric vehicles. So, we actually did a great advocacy campaign, with the province with both the Ministry of Energy of the Ministry of Transportation, to secure postal code data for utility, so they could see where people were going to be purchasing electric vehicles to help them with their own planning, in terms of, you know, making sure that their local feeders were upgraded their local transformers, and so that just got announced a year ago. But that's obviously not going to be good enough. And that just tells us about electric vehicles, you know, in the near term, but this is I think, you know, having sightlines into our customer behavior, whether we do that proactively with you know, consultations and communications with customers, or we can do it by you know, pinging the meter, or getting data such as postal codes. We are going to have to, you know, adapt and have greater visibility and sightlines into the customer. And so this is that some of that technology that I was talking about earlier, the sophisticated future grid is going to need lots of visibility and transparency, for usage and investment to be able to, you know, look at these two way power flows, look at how customers are behaving, in order to better plan the system, we also need to maximize and optimize the data that we have, you know, from our planners, it's going to be vital to protecting the grid reliability and resilience, we're going to have to have more partnerships with municipalities, in terms of their energy planning for the future and things that they want for their community. And, you know, one of the things that we're asking for on our paper is actually to, you know, rethink the distribution system plan, that the utilities have to file with the OMB every five years, and start building in a, you know, Grid Modernization plan within that broader plan. So, we can get the regulator to start looking ahead and seeing what these requests are, it'll be important to also have various performance metrics and filing guidelines for grid modification from the energy board. So, you know, these are some of the things I think that the membership is going to have to look at but it is going to be a very iterative experience, because it's just it's the pace of change is the big unknown. And so, everyone talks about these things. But you know, I saw something today, I think it was from Ford Motor Company, and they're kind of slowing down, it's taken them a while to retool their plants. So that could take an extra two years now for them to be up and running and producing electric vehicles. So, there's going to be all these other pieces of the puzzle that are constantly going to be changing a moving and evolving. It is I think, planning for the future is going to be very challenging. And I do expect the province to start talking about this higher level, maybe starting at the end of this year, they just came off a massive exercise related to the energy transition electrification panel. And I do expect to see more guidance from the province as well, in terms of how they're going to manage this planet, because it's not just planning for us. It's planning for everybody else in the system, too.   Trevor Freeman  32:02  Yeah. And for listeners out there, if you haven't had a look at that energy transition electrification panel reports, a really fascinating read. So, I'd encourage you to take a look at it. You mentioned a lot of interesting things there. So, for our listeners, and I'll probably do a future episode on this so I won't get into detail, but LDCs typically have to file five-year rate applications once every five years that really lay out their plans for those five years and how they're going to fund them. So coincidentally, hydro Ottawa was getting ready to do our next one. And like I said, I'll probably talk about that on a future episode. But one thing we did when it comes to forecasting is, we conducted a electrification study that looks at if we electrify by 2050, like our plans, say we will and you know, society wise, what does that mean for the grid? And some of the inputs we took is, you know, what are the federal plans for electrification? What are our own municipal plans for electrification? What are we hearing from our customers, and that really, is helping us modify and change how we do grid forecasting, based on some of the changes that we're seeing from our customers. So I think this is a really important piece that, like you said, we're going to need to iterate on we're not going to get it right the first time. But we're starting to think of how do we need to change the way we do things in order to keep up with what our customers are doing.   Teresa Sarkesian  33:28  I think one thing I've seen more of the last few years, because this is much more complex than it's been in the past that I've seen, like the IESO, for example, they've done more, you know, scenario setting. So, when they've had their, you know, their APO's and AER safe, they sort of had other two or three scenarios, and they're constantly updating their numbers every year. So, these are other changes that we're starting to see. And even myself, I was just looking at the provincial budget detail the other day, they also set out, you know, scenarios as well. They're just not picking Oh, it's going to be, you know, X amount of deficit. And you know in 2028 they're actually forecasting out different scenarios. So, I think that's another piece I see more in play, that people will, you know, showcase what assumptions they have, and will have maybe two or three different scenarios as well.   Trevor Freeman  34:21  Yeah, and I think it's a, it's a great way to tackle that unknown component to where we've never really been through a change like this before. We've never wholesale changed the way we use energy in our society. So, there's a degree of uncertainty, obviously, and I think, targeting out that kind of, let's call it high, medium, low scenario, or whatever the metric might be, is going to be really critical for us to make sure we're staying within the boundaries of what's possible and what's probable and refining that constantly as we move forward. So that's a great point. Something else you mentioned a little bit ago, that's, you know, could be a bit of a nebulous term is grid modernization now I've actually got a future episode, and specifically about grid modernization and what hydro Ottawa is doing, I think it might actually be our next one. So, we don't need to go into all the details on this. But let's just help our listeners understand what do we mean when we're talking about grid modernization? And why is this important? Why is it important to our customers that we do this kind of back-office improvement?   Teresa Sarkesian  35:23  So, I'm going to keep it really simple, because I know you're going to do a deep dive on it and a future episode. But essentially, Grid Modernization are improvements that LDCs will make simply to augment our capabilities, and enable us to offer new or improved services to customers. So back-office improvements might look like things like real time sensing, and monitoring systems to improve efficiency and reliability. Or we may be investing in new digital infrastructure communication systems to improve safety, cybersecurity, it can also include more visible improvements to safeguard our infrastructure against extreme weather, and climate change to reduce outages. And like one, I guess, example that some of your customers might already be recognizing, you know, we made investments in green button, which enables customers to download their data, send it to a third party if they want to save on customer use. So, it really is the whole soup to nuts, it really is not just one type of technology or solution. It is a combination of a whole series of things that the that the utility will need to do. And I think why we want to do it, I think when we look at all of the pressures on the system, from NetZero objectives to housing priorities, you know, to accelerate broadband development, and support electrification, the pressures seem to be never ending. And the only way that we can respond to all those pressures, is to be grid ready. And, you know, like I said, it's it is a form of continuous improvement. It's just that now it's the pace accelerated pace is such so extraordinary, that we need to have a more dedicated plan. But most importantly, we have to make sure we have dedicated attention by policymakers and regulatory decision makers as well. Because right now, there isn't that dedicated attention to this very important task. Yeah,   Trevor Freeman  37:28  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great that you bring up all these pressures that we're feeling that it's I think it's time we kind of talk about that elephant in the room, our customers often ask us about affordability, or we're hearing from our customers about affordability, I was actually at a customer event not too long ago, and talking about the change that we're going to see here talking about some of this, you know, large scale transition of our energy sector. These are not small investments that we have to make. We're talking about both an increase of our infrastructure, you know, you mentioned almost doubling the capacity of the grid. We're talking about modernizing our grid systems, that's a lot of back-office work with new technology, and bringing on new programs. Like this is a big change. Energy affordability is already a kind of a challenge today for some folks. So, as we get into this new investment that we have to make as we start moving down the path of the energy transition, how do we balance affordability, especially for our vulnerable populations, with the level of investment that we know is necessary to do the things that we have to do? Yes,   Teresa Sarkesian  38:42  Yes, that's the multibillion-dollar question, Trevor. And it's something I'm going to carve out my response, because there's some things that we've put into our vision paper for the future, because affordability is absolutely critical. And as you know, this is basically a massive restructuring of the economy going forward. So, there's may be other participants who might be playing a funding role. So, you know, right now, obviously, you know, customers aren't monolithic, and you know, residential customers who are struggling to pay bills. Do you have some programs that they can, that they can access, they have the low income Energy Assistance Program, they have the Ontario electricity support program. Some of those are funded by the tax base, some are funded by other electricity customers. The province also gives a rebate to customers in Ontario, and that's a pretty big rebate. I don't think a lot of residential customers are aware of it but it is over 7 billion annually to residential small business customers. That's a lot of money. But I don't know if customers really appreciate that. So, I don't know what's going to be available going forward. These are some of the challenges that you know policy makers, you know, have to address as well. So, when we were thinking about this as part of our paper, we sort of looked at it from a number of perspectives. So, the federal government has set up all these Net Zero targets, they've set out, you know, targets for electric vehicle manufacturing, as well. And so, it might be appropriate for them to share part of the burden with this massive energy transformation. And it's interesting, we actually pulled customers about 2000 Customers two years ago, we asked them a whole series of questions about the changes going forward. And customers do have different perspectives about who should be paying for some of this energy transition. So, when we asked them about who should be paying for electric vehicle, charging infrastructure, and they said, Oh, electricity, customers should pay for that, because that's something that everyone's going to benefit from. When we ask them about, you know, who should be paying for the electricity grid, to address climate change and hit Net Zero targets, they actually the majority, 58% said, the taxpayer should be paying for that. So, I think that's just a very interesting data point. But it's something that, you know, we've been active on in terms of having those conversations with the federal government, saying that, you know, you have offered different subsidies to attract different companies to invest in Ontario, based on our clean grid, but we need to have the whole grid support it. So, you know, we're pursuing federal government support, we also are looking at increased maybe private equity engagement in in our sector. So right now, we have a couple of private members, but there's not a lot of private equity money in the sector, most of our members are municipally owned, and municipalities can't invest in their utility, probably even if they wanted to, because they're in short supply of funds as well, they have their own taxpayer that they have to deal with. So, one of the solutions we are putting forward to government is to increase the private equity threshold, so it doesn't trigger additional taxes, right now, it's only 10% ownership. But we're saying that maybe a tool in the toolbox should be up to 49% ownership. So, it would allow private equity to come the patient capital, they're not maybe looking to seek a return right away. So, there's some you know, flexibility there as well. Another thing we're looking at is to revisit the debt equity ratios of utilities to manage the costs over the long term. So, you'd be effectively amortizing on some of those grid investments as well. So, these are some of the ideas that we have around how we can basically fund the energy transition going forward. You know, and some people say, Well, if you could get customers to think about their energy usage holistically, so if they're going to be, you know, moving away from a, you know, a combustion engine car, and they're going to be using heat pumps, instead of, you know, natural gas heating in their home, if you could get people to think holistically what they're saving on the kind of, you know, GHG side of things, versus what they are going to be spending on electricity, they may actually be spending less if they look at it holistically, but I don't really know, to be honest with you, so that I'd rather focus on the things that we could ask government for, as opposed to asking customers to be, you know, thinking more holistically at their entire energy usage, which is just not how they think. And I think, to change that behavior, would be quite a monumental task going forward. But those are some of the things that we think about, because we are very concerned about the affordability going forward, because it is such a massive change that we're all experiencing.   Trevor Freeman  43:50  Yeah, I think this is another example of there is no single solution here. There is no you know, silver bullet that's going to help us pay for all of this, we need all the tools on the table here, we need to look at all different options. And I think you outlined a couple of them, you know, in what you said about our customers impression of some of this change and who should pay for it. Last episode, I talked to David Coletto, from Abacus data, and he was saying on the whole Canadians really believe that an electrified energy system, we know once we make that transition, we will be more secure, it will be more affordable. And I think those customers who have made some transition in their lives can see the benefit of that. But sometimes the initial hurdle is pretty hard to get over that upfront capital cost. And so, looking for ways, both at the customer level as well as at the utility level, the LDC level I think is going to be important to help get over that initial capital outlay that's required, so that we can realize those benefits that we all know where they are that we know we'll see. So. Yeah, great filling some of those out. So, I know I mentioned that I will get back to this. But I do want to talk to you about the advocacy role that the EDA plays. So, you mentioned, you know, talking to governments and Ontario, the provincial governments across Canada, the provincial government has jurisdiction over most energy matters. So, advocacy to the government is a key role that you play. I'm curious, what are you asking the government to do or to provide to help some of these changes that we're talking about happen? What is the advocacy that you're pushing for with the government?   Teresa Sarkesian  45:32   So, I'm going to try to keep it really simple and just sort of, you know, tie it back to our vision paper for now, because at any given time, I'm working on 20 or 30 l policy issues, primarily with the Ontario government. But this past year, we have expanded our work to also include the federal government, because they have investment tax credits that we are interested in for our members to see if they could be eligible for those. We're interested in them changing things to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, also to provide new sources of equity there. And we're also pursuing grants, as well, for grid modernization. So provincially, a whole whack of issues. But I'm going to go back to our paper just to give your audience a little bit of a sneak peek on some of the things that we're going to be asking for. So, one of the first things we're going to be asking for is to get a common understanding and definition of grid modernization, and electrification. And this is not really new of an idea, we kind of have copied it from the US, there's a lot of jurisdictions, there where very clear objectives that have been set out in order to justify grid modernization, investments. So, we think that it'd be beneficial for Ontario to do that, because then once you have those objectives in place, it is going to make it a lot easier to be able to prioritize grid modernization capabilities, functionalities, and investments in line with those objectives. You know, and then from there, you know, we're looking at creating a series of foundational investments. So going forward, some of the things that we think are foundational, are things like the distributed energy resource management systems and the advanced metering infrastructure, which is sort of like smart meters 2.0, for lack of a better term, and also the advanced distribution management systems. So, we see those are going to be foundational pieces that all utilities are going to need to be able to help customers interact with the grid, and they're going to be necessary grid investments. So how what we see for those is we would like it to be similar policy direction, like we had for smart meters and green button, where you have government mandated activities. And then those are given, you know, a kind of lower standard of evidence with the Ontario Energy Board to support that capital infrastructure, they're deemed as priorities and ties back to that initial plan, where you set objectives, as long as those objectives can be that then those should get a pass through.   Trevor Freeman  48:12  If I could jump in right there just for our listeners. So what Teresa is describing here is, at the moment when there are unique things that are not part of government mandate, yet every LDC and Ontario, of which there are many 60, something I don't even have the number in front of me but every LDC when it comes time to enact that project has to go through a whole exercise of justifying it proving why it's necessary, saying this is why we want to do it. If there was some commonality across LDCs in the province, we wouldn't have to put as much effort into, you know, the report writing side of it, we could just get down to business and make these changes that we all know across the province are important. So, I think it's helpful for us to understand how that process works.   Teresa Sarkesian  49:00  Yeah, and thank you for interjecting on that, Trevor, because if government wants us to move fast, we can, but we need that certainty. So, you know, we're no different than any even though we're regulated monopolies. We're really no different than any other business that wants to do business in Ontario, you're always looking for certainty and clarity, from legislation from policy from regulation, because the uncertainty is what slows things down. Another recommendation that I'm moving forward with is that we need to move beyond pilot projects. I had a conversation with a consultant who is working with Enercan on this and they want to move beyond I love their term, death by demonstration. We've got a couple of dozen pilot projects currently in the sector, whether they're funded provincially through the IESO or they're funded federally through Natural Resources Canada, and you know, there's some very exciting results that are coming out of those. But some of those pilot projects have been going on for all almost four years, in one case, almost five. And at some point, you need to pull off the band aid said, yes, this is a success, all LDCs would be eligible for funding in this. So, we need to be able to scale it up. Or we just say no, that's not going to work. But being in this constant state of the pilot projects, while it's informative, at some point, someone has to have the courage to say we're moving forward, this is going to be scalable. Another recommendation we have is to create an action plan to develop a comprehensive human resource strategy to address quantity quality, and partnership aspects of the labor force going forward. There's some great work that electricity, Human Resources Canada has done. And, you know, DC 28,000, replacement and new jobs in our sector, by 2050 and that's, the electricity sector at large across Canada. And I did some, I think back of the envelope calculations to try to figure out, okay, some assumptions about distribution. And we're looking at close to 10,000 new positions in the sector, over the next 25 years. Every sector is having challenges, filling current jobs, never mind jobs, that we're not even sure what they are quite yet. So we don't necessarily have the right programs at the universities and colleges or private training institutions to start getting the right people and talent into our organization. And, you know, so we need help for that. And, you know, I am encouraged, I saw a little announcement out of the province yesterday to have more electricians down on the Chatham Kent area, because that's the whole greenhouse industry. And so, I said, Okay, that's exciting. So, people are starting to pay attention, but we need it more than just in one local community, it needs to be province wide. And, you know, like I mentioned before, we need to have more conversations about what the funding models are going to be to fund the energy transition. So, these are some of the issues and recommendations that we're taking forward from our vision paper. But day to day, I guess that's the other thing, I want to mention in terms, the change I've seen, I've never seen us work on so many issues, prepare so many submissions, invest so many staff at various tables and working groups. And we love doing all that work. We love representing our members at every table of discussion possible, but I've never seen so many. And they're not just oh, you're there for a month, and you're done. Some of these they are multi year. So, they have longer legs, because they are far more complex. But you know, we're working every day, you know, for members that way. Very, very proud to represent our sector think it's a fantastic sector. And the fact that they're going to play such a pivotal role in the future makes us only want to work harder to make sure we get the best of everything for our membership.   Trevor Freeman  52:54  Yeah, I know, we echo that at our level, we can certainly see a lot more stakeholdering and engagement happening with all players in the sector, but especially the government as they figure out this energy transition to right, let's not, you know, let's not forget that the government needs to figure out where policy needs to go to lead it, and it's a great role that you're playing to kind of bring the voice of the distributors to the government. Because again, as we've talked about a couple of times, we're really on the front lines, and we're hearing from our customers, and we're seeing what needs to change right at that customer level, in order to enable some of this stuff that's happening so that that conversation between the LDCs and the government I think is really important. So you know, we don't work in a vacuum, I just mentioned a number of stakeholders in our sector. And I highlighted the interconnected nature of our grid at the beginning of our conversation. There are a lot of different players working together to really, at the end goal is bring power to the customer. How do you see the existing model changing or expanding in terms of, you know, the kinds of partnerships that LDCs have moving forward? So you know, you mentioned private equity is being a potential upcoming role. There are things like technology companies that are developing innovative solutions, who, you know, we maybe were a bit more arm's length with in the past. There's a changing nature of our relationship with the customers, you brought up the idea of going from one way power flow to kind of two way back and forth. arrangement. How do you see that partnership evolving in the future?   Teresa Sarkesian  54:30  Well, I think the good news is, there's a very strong foundation knowledge to build on. So, I'm going to talk about three different areas. I'm going to talk about sort of shared services across utilities, and I'll talk about a partnership with the private industry. And I'd like to talk about the engagement with customers as well. So firstly, there's lots of shared services going around in the industry already. There are all kinds of partnerships that members are trying to reduce costs for customers and find the best solution. So instead of saying, having 60 utilities run, seek out the best solution, you know, you get everyone working collaboratively to find a solution at the best price for customers. So, we've seen a lot, just in my 15 years I've been there you've got in the past, there was, you know, common delivery of conservation programs, members work together on common engineering standards, lots of mutual aid assistance agreements across among utilities, for Storm Recovery. I've seen shared billing services, bulk purchasing products, and shared control room practices and services. And I've seen private sector play a much bigger role in utilities, as well. I've had the privilege to attend some openings, and launches of micro grids, where you have maybe a solar company and an energy storage, battery company, that are part of that group with utility, creating a micro grid for their community to provide maybe warming and cooling charging services when there's a major outage, for example. And I've seen now, some smart grids, you know, one that's already been implemented up in the north that has a significant private sector partner. And I've seen it also there's a new one, that's another one in the north, that's going to be developed with a private sector partner. And I've seen, not just Ontario businesses, I've seen what businesses come in one of our members is doing a distribution system operator pilot model with a partner in from Norway. So, I'm really encouraged, I think the foundation is already there to kind of build on all those successes we already have, and do more, you know, and we talked about the customers going forward as well, that they're going to be to help playing a role, or we hope they're going to be playing a role. Because there's a lot of energy, battery storage and solar generation, sort of behind the meter, whether it's a farm, or it's a residential customer, or it's a big industrial customer. And so, we want to be able to optimize all of those resources into the system to be of benefit to all customers to reduce costs. But we'd have to give an incentive to those customers to participate, no one is going to let you know a utility access their, you know, solar panel generation or their battery storage, unless they're going to be getting paid to do so. And I think that's going to be really important going forward, because we don't want to over build the grid, I mean, the grid is going to be so big, going forward. And we have to find ways to avoid over building it. Because we don't want to be in a situation where you know, customers are having to pay too much for a grid that's not properly optimized. So trying to find solutions behind the meter, that will maybe either avoid or delay bigger generation investments or transmission investments, or even actually distribution investments, we want to optimize that. But right now, there's not really a lot of permission to do that. So we need to get that legislative and regulatory permission to do that, to turn those, you know, more passive customers into prosumers, that they're basically your their proactive customers by selling their energy storage back to the grid. So I'm really optimistic. I think we've got a great foundation work to do on the customer peace, letting them participate as prosumers and the system, but I'm pretty optimistic that that we can get that job done.   Trevor Freeman  58:27  Yeah, I think it really highlights, there's a lot to be excited about when it comes to the change, that's going to happen. There's a lot of opportunity out there both for the LDCs, for the other stakeholders for our customers, that this energy transition, this change is going to bring about, you know, there's some challenges to I know, he talked about the challenges. I wonder, though, what do you see, as you know, one of the single biggest are a series of risks to achieving the vision that you've outlined in the paper, how could this go off the rails and not happen the way we need it to happen?   Teresa Sarkesian  59:03  Well, I always like to be glass half full as opposed to half empty, but you're taking me down that road? Trevor? So I'm going to answer that question.   Trevor Freeman  59:11  It's my job.   Teresa Sarkesian  59:11  So you know, obviously, our vision for the future role is big, but it's practical. The energy transition is upon us now. It's not something to contemplate for the future. So we think that the biggest risk is effectively inaction or kind of, you know, kicking the issue down the road, 510 years. We're seeing this right, nearby jurisdictions in the US are taking action. There's been significant funding out of the Biden administration, for all kinds of initiatives from you know, cybersecurity, to grid modernization down there. They're doing they're very competitive. They want to attract businesses, to the US. And so, you know, that's a major competition for Ontario. So if we don't seize the opportunities to kind of start working on these important issues now, we could lose economic development opportunities, we could lose jobs, we could lose investment, we could lose our talent as well, that may want to move to another jurisdiction. So to mitigate that risk, the LDCs, and policymakers have to work together on developing a shared vision around electrification and grid modernization, develop a plan of action and create a realistic timeline to turn that vision into reality.   Trevor Freeman  1:00:26  Yeah, it's a it's a great point. And I think it's important for people to understand that change is happening, the change is going to happen, whether we want it to or not. And, you know, often sometimes people say, Are we are we really going to see this change? I think we're already seeing it, we're already seeing customers want to change the way they interact with energy. The risk here is if we don't react quick enough or properly enough, the costs of that change becomes higher the reliability of the grid that we're working with, goes down, that general customer experience is not where it needs to be. And then you've highlighted some other ones, you know, we can really struggle with talent if we're not offering them the kind of cool innovative roles that they're looking for. But the neighboring jurisdiction is, so it's not so much that the change may or may not happen, it's how do we react to it in a way that really serves all of our stakeholder the best. So, Teresa, this has been a really great conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and chat with us today. I think there's a number of things that we talked about today that really set up future conversations I'm going to have nicely. So thanks for the half for teeing that up. And this is your second time on the show. No doubt, there'll be a third time because I think there's a lot more that down the road, we can we can pick apart. So thanks for that. We typically end our interviews here with some common questions to all our guests. So to start off, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?   Teresa Sarkesian  1:01:56  So one I recently enjoyed it's by a friend too. By Darrell Bricker, he wrote Empty Planet, and that is very, very good talks about actually declining global population. And what that means from everything from, you know, businesses to climate change to pension plans. So it's a fascinating read. People have time for it.   Trevor Freeman  1:02:19  Yeah, very cool. I'll check that out. So kind of the same question. What's a movie or a show that you'd recommend to everybody?   Teresa Sarkesian  1:02:24  I watched one a few months ago was a Netflix series called the Blue Zone. And it was an investigation on people who had made it to 100 I think they called Central Jamarion’s I can't remember the name. But basically, they interviewed all these people living around the world about what it takes to get to be 100. So I really enjoyed it. It was just, it was just very beautifully done. And the people they talked to, I found fascinating and so interesting. So I really enjoyed it.   Trevor Freeman  1:02:52  Yeah, I also watched that one that was really great. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Teresa Sarkesian  1:03:00  Well, I couldn't pick just one place, Trevor. So maybe I could like, have like around the world trip. But Sydney and Tokyo are places I really want to go to   Trevor Freeman  1:03:09  Have you been there before?   Teresa Sarkesian  1:03:11   No, no, but I think they look like places. Totally,   Trevor Freeman  1:03:16  Totally. Who is someone that you admire?   Teresa Sarkesian  1:03:18   for years it has been Terry Fox, great. My kids are in a big, I don't want to say Terry Fox phase, but they obviously they learn about Terry Fox a lot at school. And so they often will come home talking about Terry Fox, and we've got a little book that we read about, you know, the story.   That's fantastic that he really is an exemplary Canadian. And if he can only know today, what he has achieved, you know, even though his it wasn't able to make his run across the country, because unfortunately, he passed I think he'd be blown away by the fact that people have kept the memory going. And you even talking about your kids, you know, obviously doing things to support his memory, and his initiatives. And he's just extraordinary to me.   Trevor Freeman  1:04:04  Now, there's definitely a lesson there. And we don't always know the impact that we are having. And we may never know the impact that we're having. long as we're kind of aiming at the right things. Good things will happen. So finally, to wrap it all up, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?   Teresa Sarkesian  1:04:23  Firstly, excited about everything. But if I had to sort of pick one, I am very excited about the potential for customers to be pro sellers and engage with the with the energy system. I think that could be absolutely transformative going forward. So I'm excited. And I hope to see that before I retire, that's for sure.   Trevor Freeman  1:04:45  For sure. I mean, I think there's no question. We're going to see lots of change, as we've talked about a lot today. And I'm excited about that, too. So that's great. Teresa, thank you again for coming on the show. I really appreciate it and it's been great chatting.   Teresa Sarkesian  1:04:57  Likewise, thanks so much, Trevor. Really enjoyed Our time together.   Trevor Freeman  1:05:00  Right Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of he thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenerg@hydroottawa.com

Decarbonization, the energy transition, and combating the climate crisis are critical to the future of Canadians (and the planet). But we all have different priorities and opinions. In episode 134 of thinkenergy, David Coletto, founder and CEO of Abacus Data, unpacks some of the key issues Canadians face today. Abacus Data is a Canadian market and public opinion research agency, delivering insights to guide policy decisions, messaging, and how to foster collective dialogue about pressing challenges. Related links   Abacus Data: https://abacusdata.ca/  David Coletto on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%93%8A-david-coletto-%F0%9F%8C%8E-b44a8622/  David Coletto on X: https://twitter.com/DavidColetto   Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/    To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Follow along on Instagram   Stay in the know on Facebook   Keep up with the posts on X --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Hi, welcome to thinkenergy podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hey, everyone, welcome back. On this show, we often hear from energy experts, whether that's talking about a specific technology or up and coming solutions, or speaking with people that represent organizations who are playing a key role in the energy space. And while that's great, and we could obviously learn a lot from that. It's also important that as we're having those conversations we're doing so with a good understanding of the context around us. By now, I hope we are all very familiar with the concept of knowledge bubbles, because I'm passionate about decarbonisation about the energy transition. And especially because I work in the energy sector. I speak to and hear from a lot of like minded individuals, we share common drivers and use a lot of the same factors to make our decisions. For example, when my own personal heating system, you know, a standard gas furnace was nearing the end of its life about four years ago, switching to a less carbon intensive option was really important to me, and that factored heavily in my decision. Even when my furnace ended up dying in the middle of January, before I had a chance to do all my research and forcing me to make a really quick decision. But I know that not everyone thinks that way. And nor do they have the luxury to think that way. For most folks getting something affordable and quick that provides heat and as easy to use is the most important thing. fuel sources low on the list. And my first appearance on the show when our previous house, Dan asked me why I was interested in taking over his hosting duties. I noted that while I was encouraged that there does seem to be a general consensus around climate change being a real thing. Finally, at least for the majority of Canadians, we as a society are far from aligned on the exact strategies and tools that we need to deploy in order to do something about it. You know, nor is climate change, the only thing going on in the lives of everyday Canadians. There's an affordability problem, there's a housing crisis, we're worried about having an effective health care system. And seeing parts of that, you know, not work so well. The list of things that matter to Canadians is long. And we as a society are not homogeneous in our thinking. So that is why I think today's conversation is really important. David Coletto, holds a PhD in Political Science from the University of Calgary, and is the founder and chair and CEO of abacus data, a Canadian market and public opinion research agency. So David and Abacus have really made it their mission to help all of us better understand what Canadians are thinking and feeling about kind of everything. It's this insight that helps drive policy decisions, messaging, and ultimately how we can best have a collective conversation about our path forward. David, welcome to the show.   David Coletto  03:28 Hey, Trevor, thanks for having me. Great to be here.   Trevor Freeman  03:30 Great. Let's start with the basics. You've described yourself as infinitely curious, passionate and eternally optimistic? First of all, that's a pretty fantastic start to a bio. But help me fill in the blanks here. How did you come to start abacus? How do you maintain that curiosity, passion and optimism?   David Coletto  03:48 So yeah, everyone asked this question like, when did you want to become a pollster? Like, was this something you always wanted to do? And it's funny because it is, I don't know the exact moment. I don't think there was like a light bulb that said, I want to do this. But I think over the course of high school, and then, you know, as I thought about what I wanted to do, after high school, I was really always interested in two things. One is politics. And then two was stats, I was that kid who like, I'm aging myself here a little bit, but I would be no, my parent, my parents, I grew up in Toronto would get the Toronto Star and I would, you know, every morning, open and up during the baseball season and look at the box scores and just be like devouring stats around baseball. And so I think as a pollster, I started in politics and an interest in politics. And, you know, a lot of what I do, looking at the political world, is basically the box scores for politics, you know, who's up who's down how Canadians feel about those political leaders. But that expanded beyond that, over the last 20 years, and I've come to just be someone who's just really interested in and curious about why people do what they do. Why do they think what they think? And I have this amazing job where I get to ask 1000s of Canadians hundreds of questions every week, from anything from politics, all the way to how they feel about work, how they make decisions, on, you know, where they eat out for dinner to stupid stuff that, you know, feels a little fluffy and not that important around, you know, what are they going to do on Valentine's Day? And that, I think, is what keeps me motivated. The optimist in me, I don't know where that comes from. I don't know if it's part genetic art, just, you know, outlook. But I'm always somebody that sometimes drives my team crazy, who will take a situation that's not always positive and say, okay, but what's the upside? And how do we? How do we get over that? And I think as somebody who is, especially over the last number of years, who has been kind of seeing people's reaction to the world around them in a very negative way, I think you almost have to be an optimist to be able to do that. Because it's been a really tough time. And most people's responses to questions these days are negative when it comes to pretty much everything that's going on in the world.   Trevor Freeman  06:15 That transition, I guess, or that following from politics to other issues. I'm curious how that is guided for you and for your organization? Do you follow where the conversations are going? Or do you have a bit of a strategy of, you know, we want to, we want to test this theory, or we want to test this hypothesis, talk us through how you decide what information you're going after?   David Coletto  06:36 I think we're always interested in just helping our clients. Anyone who is consuming our content was interested in why the world works, the way it does, is providing some insight into it. Right? Again, I think we have this, this really unique opportunity as a market research company to tell Canadians what other Canadians are thinking. And I think by understanding each other, I believe, we can find a way to get to whatever goal we want. For some, it's about putting yourself like research puts yourself into other people's shoes for a moment and understanding the world from their perspective, the perceptions that they have, which I think are so important to understanding why they do or think anything else. And being able to pinpoint the thing, or the perspective that comes to shape how other people see things. And so that's what I'm really fascinated by, like digging deeper, and trying to get at the why is the most fascinating and interesting part of my job. And the polls, you know, we always say we started, I started my career, looking at things from a political angle. But politics is only a very tiny portion of the things that we do. And I always like to remind, you know, every audience, whether it's a CEO, who is much more focused on like their profit and loss sheets and try to increase the revenue to the political leaders that I have the privilege of talking to, from time to time, is that every person, I think has three cells, they're at once a consumer, they're at once, especially if they're in the in the labor market, a worker but even if they're retired, or haven't yet entered that labor market, what the work that they did, is still important to who they are, or the work they want to do is important to who they are. And then lastly, they're also voters, or they can be voters. And so those three are interconnected. And that's why I think it's really valuable to see them as those three things and understanding how their views on politics informs the choices they make as consumers and and then how they are able to behave as consumers may also influence the choices they make for where they work, or the demand they have from their workplace, and and the political world as well.   Trevor Freeman  08:59 Yeah, totally. I think that's a great lens to put on things not just for you in the kind of let's call it data business, not for those in the sort of political business or political world, if you will, you know, we think about that and the energy side of things, obviously, our lens is through energy and how what people are doing with it and using it and the decisions are making, but that's not how people look at the decisions in their lives. They don't look at it through that lens. So being able to step outside your bubble, as I kind of mentioned, is really helpful and I think could help all of us no matter the sector we're in so great way to frame that.   David Coletto  09:33 Yeah, and I'm often that like, spark or stimulus that like a leader would bring in to a team and say, okay, David, give us the broad perspective on things because so often, when you like Trevor get to spend most of your time thinking about energy and, and and the policy and how do you deliver it and then all the shifts that might be happening, you're very much an expert, and you develop an expertise, but I am not really an expert. Hi kind of a mini expert on everything, but also bring this really broad perspective that I can, I can tie things together to say the other reason why people are resistant to buying, for example, if I'm an electric vehicle, it's not because they're fundamentally opposed to an energy transition, it's because they're just worried that they're not gonna able to charge it. So if the infrastructure is not there, how do we expect them to be comfortable doing that, or, you know, if you're talking to Albertans, who are the most resistant to moving away from oil and gas and embracing kind of an electrification of the world fundamental because most of their livelihoods are based on an industry that requires extracting oil from the ground and processing it? So when you start to understand the why, like, why do people get to these perspectives, or ultimately, their behaviors, it's often tied to something a little bit deeper. And that gives you, I think, a way to then figure out how to talk to them? How do you persuade them? And how do you most importantly, I think, relate to them? Totally.   Trevor Freeman  10:55 So on that note, you know, data, what you guys are doing, it's useful for decision making, it's useful for informing policy. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, where's that line between pushing a narrative versus understanding what narrative is out there? You know, obviously, you're hired to go get data to help inform different organizations or political entities making their decisions? Is there a line there between getting data and pushing data or pushing a narrative?   David Coletto  11:26 Yeah, I'm often, you know, either often criticized, if anything, because people believe that the polls that we put out in the public domain, for example, are actually influencing public opinion itself. And the evidence of that is minimal. I mean, I don't think there's millions of Canadians who could name abacus data? Or know what the heck we do? Or, or, or have you ever read one of our polls, but I don't, you know, deny that that research at any level of an organization or in the broader kind of conversation we have about society doesn't have an influence. And so when I say like, my vision for abacus is to be the most sought after influential polling firm in Canada. And what I mean by influential is not that we are at ourselves, influencing the direction of policy, but that we're that the quality of our research, and the insights we derive from that research, influences decisions in a positive way. Like, my fundamental goal is to help leaders make better decisions. And I think if your decisions are data driven, if they're evidence based, if they're rooted in understanding your audience, then you can make better, more confident decisions. And so that's what I mean, when I'd say I want to be influential, I don't care. You know, if everybody in the entire country knows who I am, and they want to hear what I have to say, my opinion matters very little. Now, my opinion about what I think the research I do matters, I think is useful. And every researcher brings a unique perspective to the research they do. And I like, I admit, I've got biases, I view the world a certain way. I'm an optimist. And so I'm constantly trying to find the upside of a lot of the stuff that we look at. But I don't believe that, you know, for research to be effective, it's not just, you know, let's go do a bunch of research and write it down on a piece of paper, and it was handed out. I think, and I think where Abacus has been really successful, is that being seen as an effective communicator of what that research means? And helping organizations leaders that whoever action it, do something with it that helps achieve their goals?   Trevor Freeman  13:43 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so obviously, one of the reasons I want you on here is to talk about energy, climate change, decarbonisation, et cetera. Before we dive too deep into some of the specific research you've done, let's talk kind of high level about some of the evolving trends that you may have seen over the last number of years when it comes to Canadians perspectives on those items, you know, help us understand where we've been going these last couple of years and where we are today?   David Coletto  14:12 Well, I think let's start with a step back and look at the broad kind of mindset that I think is important to understand then how people's views of these issues evolve over time. I think we have seen over the course of five years, a rapid shift in the mindset of the general public that has been informed and influenced by a whole ton of external events. Right. So pre pandemic, I think headed, you know, the end of 2019 going into 2020, the public in Canada, Ontario, and Ottawa was very much and I think I'm cautiously optimistic kind of friend, right? Things were okay. The economy was doing okay. Interest rates were very low relative to where they are today. And then the pandemic happened and you had this immediate flip in the mindset to one where most people at least in those first four months of the pandemic, the mindset was fear, didn't know what this meant, we were told to stay home, we didn't know how bad it was going to get, or whether we were gonna get infected, and what it meant for our family, our jobs, you name it. Soon after that, though, I think it became clear that okay, we can control it, we know a little bit more about this virus. And we entered into a kind of a roller coaster of fear and relief, fear and relief, as those case numbers went up and down. Coming out of the pandemic, though, and I think the defining mindset up today, which is really important to understand, to then understand why people will be resistant to certain public policy choices on climate or may not be ready to fully embrace the transition is that most Canadians right now, and I say most, I mean, like 80 to 90% of them, I believe, have a mindset that's very much tied to scarcity. And that is, that is a real shift. And what that means is that a lot of the things that people have come to expect that they can get in their lives are either more expensive, or harder to find or get, or they fear losing what they already have. And those are often tied to issues like housing, the general cost of living and health care. And so that mindset then causes us to view public policy decisions, broader economic forces, and our day to day lives through a very different lens than one where I described as there's plenty of everything, right. And having a good mindset means I can take risks, I can perhaps pay a little bit more, even if the perception is that I pay more, even if it's not true, in order to achieve other kinds of goals. But when I'm the perception of struggling everyday just to get the kind of life I want, or the one in three Canadians who feel like they've completely fallen behind, that is going to make it much harder for me to be persuaded to do things that feel like a big change or feel like they're going to disrupt my life more than it already is. Now, if we expand that, and then we say, okay, so how do we overlay that onto views around the broader issues around climate change, energy transition? I think what's clear in the long term trends is the vast majority, 90 plus percent of Canadians believe climate change is real and is caused by human behavior. overwhelming majorities believe that we, that's actually a crisis that we have to do something about. And in the shorter term, the last I would say, 12 to 18 months as a result of you and me, Trevor, I don't know about you I grew up in, you know, in Ontario, I never once in my entire life, stepped out on a June morning, and saw smoky skies, and you know, take my dog for a walk and bring her home and she smells like smoke. That was never part of my experience. My wife grew up in Alberta, much more likely to happen in Western Canada over time. So I think there's also become a realization that's firmed up that if we don't do something about this, that it's going to have not just theoretical consequences for the earth, but actual implications for my life, I won't be able to do certain things, my health might be compromised, the value of my property might be at risk, I may not be able to ensure, and so that I think has created far more desire or demand to see action. But what's muted it, at least in the short term, is that scarcity mindset where people have basically said, including young people, which is the most fascinating thing is, people often assume younger Canadians are more likely to, you know, say climate change is a priority for the first time in probably ever that I've tracked this, we now have younger Canadians, if you're under 30, you're the least likely to say climate change is one of your top three priorities. Interesting. And that's because other issues, like housing, like economic security, like the cost of living, have overtaken them. And so short term fear of short term scarcity, as at least for now push down fears about the longer term scarcity that climate change will create.   Trevor Freeman  19:07 As we see more of these, in a really defining event, it's interesting, you bring up you know, walking out your door and seeing that weird yellow hue of smoke that we've never experienced before. As we see more of these defining events, does that override that short term, kind of, I don't want to say short term thinking as a pejorative sense, but like override that, you know, looking to tomorrow and remind us that like there's something bigger here happening.   David Coletto  19:34 I think they could. I think every instance of it and you know, what's unfortunate, is that these events, whether they're wildfires or floods or other extreme weather events are now common. And they're happening everywhere and across the country. So from a purely like 'what's going to motivate and mobilize people to change their behavior and demand' action? Yeah, that's there's no doubt those are going to be a stimulant on that kind of behavior and action. But I still, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, depending on what you're asking about, or how you're framing it. These moments are not severe enough that they're, you know, that's not like the pandemic, which affected everybody, could affect everybody and forced us to all change everything about our lives. I don't think climate change has reached anywhere near that moment yet. And the other thing about it, and this is a defining feature of Canada right now, is that it's a politically divisive issue. There's no issue in Canada that divides the political spectrum, if you're on the conservative side, or the Liberals, the NDP side, is the issue of climate change. And it's not to say conservatives don't believe it's happening or don't fundamentally care about it. They're just not, they're just far, far less likely to put it as a priority. And so there's no consensus on what we do about it, what's the best policy choices, and how fast we need to go? And, and so we're still arguing about these things, which means, as a typical average person watching all of this happen, if the people in charge of making these decisions can't agree, well, then maybe it's not time for me to kind of line up and and do something about it, which I think is what part of the problem right now.   Trevor Freeman  21:23 Yeah, I think it's that divide between the number of people a percentage of the population that really firmly believes and sees this as a problem, like you said, and really knows we need to do something about it, compared to the various amps, which are probably evenly split on what that is, what do we do? It's hard to create policy, and it's hard to create ways forward, when we can agree on what we want to do. Something that I found really interesting, and this is going back a bit, I'm curious, in light of what we were just talking about, whether you see this as changed as there is this overwhelming idea that Canadians want to be seen as environmentally conscious, we want to be seen as leaders in that sustainability, renewable energy field. And I'm thinking about the findings you published back in 2020. So three and a half years ago, now, just the early days of the pandemic. And, you know, I can relate to the idea of Canadians wanting to be seen as virtuous leaders, I was, you know, fresh out of university and traveling the world and you want to put that shiny Canadian image forward. Tell us about that idea of how we want to be seen as, as the leaders and doing the right thing. Where does that come from? What drives that in, in our kind of national ethos? Or am I pulling something that's not there?   David Coletto  22:45 Yeah, no, I think it is there. And I think every country, by the way, there's a nationalism, a pride that, whether you were, you know, like, if you and I asked questions like that, in the UK, you know, Brits will want the UK to be seen as progressive on environmental issues are at least, you know, not seen as like, deeply polluting. And I think, part of the psyche of Canadians and I would say Canadians outside of Alberta and Saskatchewan, because I think those two provinces because of their reliance, and how important the oil and gas sector is, to those economies view this issue differently than, say, folks in Ontario, or Quebec, in particular, is that, you know, Canadians often have this like sense of superiority, certainly, compared to our American friends sound South totally. And the environment is one of those issues that we think we are better, or we should be better. And I shouldn't say we are better, but we believe we should be better. And I like that aspiration. Like, I think there's that desire for us, broadly speaking, to do our part, to be seen as leaders on this issue. But, I mean, I think there's limits to that perspective on then, okay, but are we all looking to, you know, change our behavior or, you know, adopt, you know, get rid of our furnace and put in a heat pump or, you know, change our gas powered vehicles to either a hybrid or an EV? No, we know, that's not happening as fast as it could happen. And so, it's one thing to believe it and want it and it's another thing to do it yourself. That being said, I do think from a public policy perspective, that we do want our leaders to be aspirational to, and to be, you know, looking to, to move the needle. But I think this is where your question about life was three and a half years ago, different from today, three and a half years ago, we didn't have the same mindset. So today if I ask people, What would you rather focus, reducing the cost of living making it easier for people to live their life day to day or relentlessly focusing on reducing emissions and moving to cars? I would say maybe two thirds would say, make my life easier first. And then I can get to the other thing. And so I think the more recent times have probably shifted that perception to some extent, but still want us to be leaders. But you know, they will want policymakers to coerce us into changing our behaviors.   Trevor Freeman  25:18 For sure. So with that in mind, with that context, moving a little bit forward in time, you're a little closer to today. Just last fall, September, you released findings that talked about Canadians' interest in energy efficient housing. So let's get a little bit more granular here. Talk about what Canadians feel about their own homes and what they're looking for.   David Coletto  25:40 Yeah, it was really my colleague, Edie Shepherd who did this research. And we were really interested in understanding particularly given all the conversations about housing affordability and the housing crisis. And you know, that some see as a real opportunity for us, as we build millions of new homes over the next number of years, we should probably be focused on making sure that they're as efficient as they can and, and, and help us tackle our need to reduce emissions and the climate crisis. And I would say that most Canadians 60% say that it's important that the home that they buy next is energy efficient. Very few say it's not important, there's a degree of difference, there's probably some we're gonna be like, I want to make sure it is and there'll be some that will likely say I wish it was but maybe if it costs me a few, you know, 10 grand more, I may not be able to afford it, but my intention is to see that it's there. And what's really interesting is when we asked people okay, you know, why would you want it? What are the upsides? Well, there is a perception that a more efficient owner will save the money. There is a broad understanding that it's going to future proof their home from future increases in the cost of energy. And there's the moral imperative that they think it's important to do it so that we can reduce our impact. Now, what are the barriers while they're the same? It's almost like the upside is the affordability. But the barrier is also affordability half who say, Okay, well, what would prevent you from doing it? Say, well, the upfront cost, the perception of the upfront cost is a big barrier to it. The fear that it may require more maintenance, like if you're putting solar panels on your roof, what does that mean? Do I have to maintain it? Is that going to be more costly? And then there's also a concern about just the availability of the actual energy efficient homes in the places that they live. So what it signals, though, to us is there's an intent, I think that almost everybody understands that it would be better if we all could live in a more energy efficient home. But there's these trade offs, these pushes and poles that I think are completely rational and natural for people to have, but are based on a lot of perceptions that may not be actually rooted into reality.   Trevor Freeman  28:03 Yeah. And it's great, great insight. I wonder, how do we take that? Or what impact does that have on decision making about future policy? And so I'm specifically thinking about, like the caning government's greener homes grant, which was a program to provide people with no interest loans, and in some cases, incentives to upgrade their home with clean technology, let's call it that which is oversubscribed, and they ran out of money. Does this inform policy of what comes next? Is it Is there something in there about helping people connect the dots between we'll lower that upfront cost for you, we'll have a program to lower the upfront cost, you get all those same benefits that you care about the affordability side that, you know, moral side of things to talk to us a little bit about how we connect the dots there.   David Coletto  28:52 Well I mean, the fact that was oversubscribed, as a proof that there's demand out there. That people are willing to do these things, if you lower the barriers to allow them to do it. And the cost is a big one. So and that's normal, and it's good public policy to try to incentivize the behavior you want to see and disincentivize the behavior you don't. So like, my advice to policymakers is, if you think this is important, and I'm no expert on what we have to do to achieve our emission targets and to get this issue under control. But home retrofits and increasing the efficiency of our homes, which I believe in what I've read is a big contributor. Right? Both commercial and residential properties are a big contributor to emissions, so if the incentive isn't an effective and efficient way of doing it, then we should continue to do it because it's clear people will do it. We also see for example, if I just take away from housing and residential energy use, and then I just use EVs as another example. And while there's some debate right now over whether EV demand is going to continue. But there's no doubt that provinces that have been more generous with their rebates for people who buy an electric vehicle, have seen a higher uptake in EVs go back to NBC, outright lead the country. And it's not like it's warmer in Quebec than it is in Ontario. There's a policy decision and choice that was made that has changed people's behavior. So I think we, you know, we, especially at a time when people are feeling that pinch and that squeeze, there's, there's benefit. Now, the problem also is, and this is bringing it back to the public policy lens a little bit as governments have been spending a ton of money. And so there's increased pressure on them to reduce their spending and try to manage their budget a little bit better. But, you know, priorities, I guess I'll say, and for many climate changes should be the, if not the most important thing, at least near the top.   Trevor Freeman  30:58 Yeah, and I guess, I mean, part of, we're kind of going back and forth between talking about climate change in the context of everything, and then, you know, dialing into specific things. If you focus in with people on, you know, within this issue of climate change, what's your barrier to getting a heat pump or an EV? And that affordability might be the upfront cost. But then if you zoom out and look at the more macro lens, you know, should the government be spending money on that, in particular, is that the most important thing for the government to spend money on? Maybe the answer changes, maybe, because then you're looking at it in the context of all those other issues that are also important to people.   David Coletto  31:34 Yeah. And just to drill down even further, in that study we did in September, we asked people in Canada, how interested they would be, and a very specific set of changes they could make to their home. Right things like, you know, high levels of insulation, to LED lighting, to even a geothermal heat pump, which I suspect most people don't really understand the science behind, or know how that would even work. But what we learned is that the vast majority of Canadians are at least open minded about making these changes to their home. So they're not like there's no like, deep, except for a small segment of the population's deep ideological or emotional negativity towards a sustainable behavior. It's just how do you get people over the barriers that exist? In them actually doing it. And cost is one simple understanding, accessibility of the service. And obviously, you know, an organization like hydro Ottawa has a role to play, and you do a big, important role in helping you know, consumers in the city. Think about their energy consumption as you try to help us conserve and be more energy efficient.   Trevor Freeman  32:45 Yeah, for sure, I kind of want to pull on that thread a little bit. So as you noted, like, you know, an organization like Hydro Ottawa, we're kind of on the front lines with our customers, we have that one to one relationship with them. Sometimes all that is just a bill in the mail, but they know that we are involved in energy. And, and we take it upon ourselves, we think it's important to help our customers understand energy, help them understand that, you know, part of the sector. We're going about that, and as we're talking about, especially the energy transition, what does your data mean? What can we learn from that in terms of how we engage and in the messages we bring to our customers? And I'm asking specifically thinking about an article you shared, just last week, which talked about whether carbon pricing as a policy is suffering from a failure to properly communicate. So, you know, that's kind of two pieces there, the Hydro Ottawa piece, as well as that, you know, maybe weaving all together for us.   David Coletto  33:47 Yeah, I mean, I could spend an hour talking to you about, you know, public understanding of, you know, science and climate change and carbon pricing, but the short version is, you have to assume that most people have little understanding of how things work. And I often use the analogy of, of a car and let's use an EV because that's on brand for this conversation, but like most people would know how to drive that EV but they have no understanding of how the energy is produced from the battery and it works to like turn the pistons I don't even know if there's distance in an EV. Right, there's probably not there's not that combustion engine, whatever. I don't need to know that. I just need to know how to drive it. Yeah. And so I think that the lesson there is, and the carbon tax or price is a good example of that. I don't believe that the federal government ever did the work it needed to do to explain to people why. And sometimes it's shocking how little people even understand basic principles like supply and demand that if you raise the price of something, people are going to be disincentivized from buying it or you doing that activity because it costs more. In the case of, you know, carbon price, that's the whole incentive activity that produces emissions, we want to make it more expensive, so people do less of it. But I've done focus groups, you know, years ago. But I don't think there's been a renaissance and understanding where people didn't basically understand why we raised the price of, of carbon or an emission like that. But then you've complicated it by giving that money back, which I think is a good goal, because it's really you're trying to signal a price and trying to get those who consume a lot of energy that produces emissions to reduce that as much as they can. That even in our research, most people who received a rebate, didn't know why they received it. And then when we asked them, okay, well, if this program was eliminated, and keep in mind, the fact is, most Canadians do receive at least close to or as much rebate as they would likely spend from the tax or the price. They thought they would still be better off if that just disappeared. Which tells me that that communication, and not assuming that people, you know, all watch the news or spend a lot of their own time actively looking at information. And even if they are, they may not get good information, because there's so much misinformation out there, that organizations actually have to spend a lot more time explaining and communicating. And look, I think one of the simplest and best things that Hydro Ottawa does as a consumer, as a customer of Hydro Ottawa is like when I can log on online, and you're giving me some insight into what is consuming the energy in my home, right? Like, you're like, you likely use your, you know, washing machine and your dishwasher. And, and that allows me at least to understand the implication of that choice. And if I want to reduce my energy consumption, I suspect most people want to do it because I just want to save money, then you're giving me the power through information to do it. So I think there's a lot of value in communication and just public education. It's really hard for me to say, but I think it is proven to be essential in getting people to change behaviors, away from things they've done for most of their lives.   Trevor Freeman  37:21 Yeah, it's great insight, it's something that we are constantly thinking of is, how do we relate this thing that's important and that everybody would agree is important to people's day to day lives, because they don't spend all the time thinking about it, they've got other things on their mind, other things that are important to focus on. So great insight. I want to zoom out one more time quickly here and talk about, you know, data that you published in 2022, about our energy system as a whole. So the federal government has said by 2035, all electricity production in Canada should be emissions free, on the whole Canadians completely agree. So you have data that says eight and 10 80% of Canadians believe a clean energy system would be more affordable and more secure than a fossil fuel system. I was pleasantly surprised to see that. I'll be honest. Tell us a little bit about that. And what else did you find in that study?   David Coletto  38:17 Well, I think this comes off of obviously, the invasion of Ukraine from Russia, which raised a lot of discussion, not just about the affordability of energy, because of how that conflict, you know, spiked natural gas prices and really hit Europe hard. But also a sense of energy or energy security. And so we wanted to understand, do people recognize and understand the risks actually involved, and the opportunities not just from a purely climate lens, but from an affordability security lens? And this is a really important conversation? Because I think it recognizes that not all people come at an issue with the same perspective, right? If you're somebody who doesn't believe that climate change is an absolute priority, well, then you've got to find another way to get them to behave or change their behavior, or at least agree on an outcome that might be for a different reason, but gets us to the same outcome either way. And I think what we learned from this research is that when you ask people, for example, you know, which do you think is more affordable, a clean energy system that would include hydro, wind, solar power and electric vehicles, or a fossil fuel energy system? So think oil, natural gas, coal, gas powered cars. Two of three, say I think that a clean energy system is going to be more affordable and an almost same number 68% Say, I also think it's going to be more secure. And now, that's not a consensus. I think it's getting close to one. There's still a third of people who say no, no, I think kind of those, those legacy fossil fuel driven systems are both more secure and more affordable. But I wish we had asked this question, you know, 10 years ago, but I suspect if I had, you would have probably seen a complete reversal. Right? Yeah, it would have been the opposite. And so we have seen, I think a change in people's perspective and global events have pushed us there. It just tells me that at this base level of people's understanding and belief that they think if we do everything right, these things will be better for me, and better for our country and better for the world. And that we just need to now deliver and execute on that, I think, as both policy and in the day to the lives that people are experiencing.   Trevor Freeman  40:38 Uh huh. So thinking about the change in technology and the changing landscape, we've talked about how the energy system is changing. We've talked about the impact of the pandemic, and the fact that you and I are, you know, sitting having this conversation over video chat, which is not that common, even four or five years ago. How is that progression and technology, changing the way that you gather data and understand where Canadians are at is disrupting your industry? Like it is other industries?   David Coletto  41:10 Yeah, in every way. I am too young to remember the golden years of market research and survey research. But there was a time when you know, and everybody has a phone, but not everybody answers that phone, when you could call households. And most people, almost everybody would pick up the phone. And then of those who picked up the phone, at least half or so would answer your survey. Now, you know, everybody has a phone, but almost nobody picks it up if they don't know who's calling. And that's forced the industry to respond. How people communicate, and how they don't communicate is tied to how then we can reach them and collect information from them. And so what we've seen in market research is almost an entire shift towards online research. I'll spare you the detailed nerd conversation about how we do that. But I would say most 90% of the research Abacus does, for example, is done online in some way. Whether it's recruiting, you know, the general population, when we do a poll of Canadians through a number of different panels that have recruited people, from time to time take surveys, or whether we're doing employee studies, or customer studies, using lists through email, or text messaging. But what's important is, despite all that change, I think our industry has been pretty good at being able to continue to engage people, response rates dropped, it's like people don't want to share their opinions as much as they used to. So that's a problem for us. And the most important thing as a researcher is to ensure that those who can take part in research are not fundamentally different from those who don't. And I don't think we're there yet. But it's something that- if there's anything that keeps me up at night about research, is that right? Is there going to be a moment when you know, Trevor, I don't know if you answer surveys when you're called or whatever. But if you do, and everybody who does shares the same kind of perspectives, socio economic backgrounds, demographics, and the people who don't answer surveys are completely different. And all those, then the surveys won't be representative, they won't represent the populations we're looking to understand. So yeah, technological change is changing everything. And the big, big thing I've been thinking about is what role does AI play in the market research industry? I think there's going to be a lot of benefits in terms of being able to synthesize large amounts of data, you know, being more efficient. But the impact that it has on how we collect information, I don't think is fully understood yet.   Trevor Freeman  43:42 Anything that's really surprised you and in your research, anything that's really jumped out that you've said, holy smokes, that's not what I expected.   David Coletto  43:49 I think it's - not really I am never I'm rarely surprised these days, because I'm, I'm so inundated and constantly kind of looking at data that you almost you're almost anticipate where things are going before they get there, though, what's interesting to me is that people aren't dumb. And then that's not to say that's surprising. Oh, my God, people aren't dumb. But I think sometimes there's an assumption that, you know, most people - I'm not saying most people are dumb, but they aren't paying attention. And there's a lot of people who don't pay attention to a lot of things. But I do think that most people are thinking about how they reconcile all of the things that are going on in the world and in their life. And I think climate change is now part of the conversation that's regularly there. And that to me is going to make it easier for us to achieve that thing you just said right, that that's the first step in getting people to change their behaviors and to embrace change is for them to recognize that a problem exists. And so step one has been there for a while. And I think that's going to accelerate step two, so I didn't answer your question. She does. I am rarely surprised by her about pretty much anything these days. But I am pleasantly surprised by how thoughtful some most people can be about things if you give them the chance to be.   Trevor Freeman  45:20 Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that's, I guess, aspirationally I like to think, you know, in my part of Hydro Ottawa, and what we do in engaging with customers, it's keeping that in mind and remembering we are trying to understand things in our customers lens, what matters to them. And like I said earlier. You know, my head is in this it's in, it's going through the lens of energy all the time. And that's not the case for everybody. So keeping in mind that yeah, people are diligent and paying attention and thinking about things that are important to them. And that just may be slightly different from the rest of us. So to kind of wrap it up here, we typically end with a series of questions that we asked most of our guests. So I'm going to fire the match here and see what you think. You're on the receiving end now of data gathering, I guess you can say. What's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?   David Coletto  46:16 Oh, man, I read like eight books at once. And so remembering what I'm reading? Oh, that's a tough question for me.   Trevor Freeman  46:26 But what's a book that you've read in the last month that you think everyone should read down? I'll narrow it down for you?   David Coletto  46:31 I think, okay, it's not in the last month. I'll start by answering that, okay. So a book that I think helps explain so much of the world right now is called Prius or Pickup. It's by two American political scientists. But it's not like a nerdy academic thick book. And it basically argues that there are two primary worldviews, but they are fixed and fluid, and that so much of the political division in the United States, but so much of the consumer behavior we see, is affected by that worldview. So Prius and Pickup are like the choice between vehicles. And it changed my thinking around persuasion about communication, because it basically argues that most people, and I think it's true in Canada as it is in the US, or anywhere else around the world, start a journey with a particular base assumption about the world. And if you understand those assumptions, you then understand how to persuade them.   Trevor Freeman  47:36 Very cool. Is there a movie or a show that you've watched recently that you would recommend everyone take a look at?   David Coletto  47:43 Hmm well, I love Succession. It's been a while since it ended, but if you haven't seen it, it's brilliant TV. It makes you mad. You hate all the characters, but there's something really compelling about the writing. I really love that. And then my guilty pleasure is Curb Your Enthusiasm, which and it's in its final season right now, as we record this.   Trevor Freeman  48:09 Awesome. I can't agree more with both of those. If someone offered you a free round trip, anywhere in the world, where would you go?   David Coletto  48:18 I am a cyclist. And I usually travel with my bike. Road cyclist. So anywhere in the world, I would say, you know, I think because I have never been I would love to go to places like New Zealand or Australia and explore on two wheels, either of those places. And yeah, that's where I go.   Trevor Freeman  48:40 Cool. Who's someone that you admire?   David Coletto  48:43 Oh, man. Good question. Dude, why admire? So many? It's like, what do I -  how do I frame this? These are hard questions. If you know what, recently I had someone who's like, actively involved in politics, in terms of like, public opinion, and being part of that conversation. I increasingly admire anybody, anybody, and I'm not going to pay any political support like partisan brushes or political parties, anyone who puts their name forward to run for political office these days. I admire that because it is a thankless and difficult job. And whether it's our Mayor or Premier or Prime Minister, you can disagree on the decisions they're making, you can dislike them as people if you want. But yeah, I think we should admire the fact that they have chosen to do something that is a pretty horrible job.   Trevor Freeman  49:38 Yeah, well said. And finally, is there anything kind of about the energy sector, its future that you're particularly excited about, or really keenly interested in?   David Coletto  49:50 I am an eternal optimist about human ingenuity. I'm not somebody who thinks like the end is coming and it's all going to go to hell. I actually think that we will find, and we have probably found the solutions that are going to help solve this problem. And so what excites me the most I think is, you know, I am excited for the day. I really am when I step on an airplane that is entirely powered by a non emitting fuel of some sort. I don't know when that's going to be, I don't know how long it's going to take. But I think if we achieve that, then I think we will have solved a lot of the other things and I I don't think it's that far away.   Trevor Freeman  50:29 I mean, as your bio says, infinitely curious, passionate and eternally optimistic. I think that that sums it up pretty well. David Colletto, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you coming on.  I really appreciate the conversation too, Trevor. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com  

The energy transition will define the sector for decades. And smart, passionate people are needed across the industry—leaders and innovative thinkers to chart the path forward. In his first episode hosting thinkenergy, Trevor Freeman gives the future workforce a voice, chatting with two engineering interns about what a career in energy means to them. Listen in as Alana Jones from Envari Energy Solutions and Priscilla Lacerda from Hydro Ottawa share their experiences. Related links   Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en Envari Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/  Alana Jones on LinkedIn: n/a Priscilla Lacerda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/priscillalacerda/  To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube   Follow along on Instagram   Stay in the know on Facebook   Keep up with the posts on X ----- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Hi, welcome to thinkenergy podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@ hydroottawa.com. Hi, everyone, this is Trevor Freeman here. This is my first official show without the training wheels. Just as a reminder, your regular host, Dan, is hanging up the lapel mic, actually, it's a big giant microphone - go bigger go home, I guess. And I'm stepping in to try and fill his shoes. The consistent thing though, is that the goal of the show continues to be to explore the fast changing world of energy through conversations with smart people doing cool things. Today on the show, we're going to talk about the energy workforce of the future. So this show is featured a number of conversations about the energy transition, which is arguably already underway. And this massive shift will really be the defining feature of this sector for at least the next couple of decades. Like any other massive project or societal change, in order to do it properly. We need great people. We need smart, passionate people in all areas of the sector to help us move forward into uncharted territory. A career in energy is really an exciting, dynamic pathway and a great way to contribute to meaningful change. But obviously, I'm a little biased, so I wanted to talk to two people who are earlier in their journey. It's great timing for this conversation because March is both National Engineering Month here in Canada, and we've just celebrated International Women's Day. Joining me today are two smart, young engineering interns working in the energy space. Alana Jones has had a number of roles with Hydro Ottawa, and currently works for Envari Energy Solutions, a Hydro Ottawa affiliate. Priscilla Lacerda joined Hydro Ottawa as an intern last year, Alana and Priscilla, welcome to the show.   Alana Jones  02:10 Hi, Trevor. Thanks for having us.   Priscilla Lacerda  02:12 Hi, Trevor. Thank you.   Trevor Freeman  02:14 Alright, let's get started by learning a little bit about you both. Priscilla, why don't we start with you? Could you tell us a little bit about where you went to school and what you studied and really how you ended up working in the energy sector?   Priscilla Lacerda  02:25 Sure. So I'm originally from Brazil and completed my studies there. I have a Bachelor in Electrical Engineering and an MBA Diploma in Business Management. While I was at the university, I tended to work in an affiliated company and spent around six and a half years there. Eventually, I decided to immigrate to Canada. And because I used to work in energy fields in my home country, I researched a lot about Hydro Ottawa and ended up being selected to work as an engineering intern last year.   Trevor Freeman  02:54 That's great. Well, I'm glad that we got you to join us from Brazil. And I think your experience in you know, both in Brazil's energy sector as well as here in Canada is going to be really beneficial both for you and for us. Alana, maybe the same question for you. Tell us a little bit about how you got started in the energy sector.   Alana Jones  03:12 Yeah, so I studied chemical engineering. I come from a large mining community. And that was the initial plan to work as a metallurgical engineer. However, once I graduated, I was a young 20 year old looking for a more exciting city than Sudbury Ontario had to offer. So I relocated to Ottawa. My brother was here, and I've always loved this city. I realized pretty quickly, however, that it was a lot harder to find a role in chemical engineering than it was in Sudbury. So I started working in restaurants and pubs to pay the bills. Plus, it was fun, the money was great. But fast forward five years, and I knew that I needed to actually use my degree and find a career. So I really liked Ottawa, I knew I wanted to stay here. I just didn't really know how to make that happen. So I contemplated Teachers College. And then one day on the radio, I heard about an exciting opportunity. It was a program that Algonquin College was running to get more women into the trades. They were calling on women with engineering science or math degrees to take their fast tracked electrical engineering technologists program. So the perks were wonderful. They offered free laptops, work boots, and what I found most appealing was an opportunity for a Co-Op with a local utility. So I ended up doing my four month Co-Op with Hydro One. And it was a great way to break into the industry and actually see the utility business and how it was run. And that same year I graduated from the program at Algonquin I got hired on as any it with Hydro Ottawa, so I feel like everything just worked out really well.   Trevor Freeman  04:41 Awesome. It's great to hear about the different kinds of unique pathways that people take to get to where they are on them. That's not unique to the energy sector but still interesting to hear. So let's dive a little bit deeper into what you guys do today. Alana will stick with you. Help us understand what it is you do in your role and you know, tie that back to how that relates to your engineering studies?   Alana Jones  05:02 Sure, my current role is with the Envari electrical team. My main focus is electric vehicle infrastructure projects and energy studies for buildings. As you know, there's a massive push for electrification of vehicles. And the government has mandated that all vehicles sold as of 2035 will be electric. So we see huge numbers of people wanting to get a head start on having that infrastructure available to support their future EV needs. We work with government agencies, many car dealerships, condo, apartment buildings, airports, even companies looking to convert their full fleets over. So my role is to perform the initial assessment on a building to determine if they have enough electric capacity to install any EV chargers at all, and what their options are as far as installation size and what that would look like with respect to their building layout. Our team helps provide guidance on the type of charger and system that would be most suitable for their needs. And there really are so many options, whether it's fast charging, or rapid charging, or if they want to allow public use or private so you get into a whole list of options that clients often need guidance on. And sometimes we actually see that buildings don't have enough capacity to support their electric vehicle infrastructure needs. And as one example, if the transformers are too small to support additional power loads, in that case, we can recommend a service upgrade to get them where they need to be for future electrification. Sometimes, that means designing a surface upgrade before charger installation to ensure that the building will have enough power to support the needs. And that means sizing the service accurately as well to reflect the current and projected needs. So these are expensive upgrades we're talking about. And they should last decades to come. The last thing you want to do as an engineer is install something too small, to find out 10 years down the road that the building needs more power, or if you oversize a service, it ends up just costing much more than it needs to. And I guess the last part of my role is the actual implementation of these chargers. So once any service upgrade is done if it's needed, the group can begin managing the installation, so sourcing the chargers and electrical contractor to do the work. And a big part of my role is making sure all parties are kept in the loop and the project remains on time and budget so that it can be as simple as possible for the client.   Trevor Freeman  07:09 Great. Thanks for that. We'll come back to that in a minute. But Priscilla, over to you, kind of the same question. Tell us about what you do specifically and kind of how that relates to your engineering experience.   Priscilla Lacerda  07:21 Yeah, so basically, I prepare and maintain a portfolio of business performance measures for our electricity distribution division. Alongside my supervisor, we identify opportunities to improve internal and external processes, and also analyze financial data. As you are well aware of, as a utility, we are regulated by the Ontario Energy Board. So it's imperative to keep our processes and analysis well documented. And that's the importance of my role and department and how it relates to my engineering studies.   Trevor Freeman  07:51 Great. I mean, those are just two examples that you guys both gave about, you know, the number of different roles within the utility sector. And it's a, you know, a pretty wide range of things that have to happen in order for us to deliver the service that we do and make sure that we're providing value for our customers. So thanks for that. Maybe kind of a follow up question on that. Anything that surprised you so far in your role here at Hydro Ottawa, and Envari, for you, Alana.   Alana Jones  08:20 Um, I would say the most surprising thing I've found is that everyone really wants you to succeed. I've been really, really lucky in my various roles, having managers and supervisors with a ton of experience to be able to coach me and support me in whatever ways they can. Our group at Envari is so diverse in their knowledge and backgrounds. So they offer, each person offers a specific skill set that they're willing to share with everyone. And anytime I need help or support, there's always someone willing to take that time out of their own busy schedule to support me. And I really love that. I mean, sometimes we spend more time with our co-workers than our own families. So I think it's important to have a nice working environment and to feel supported. And I've been lucky enough to have had that experience throughout my career.   Trevor Freeman  09:02 Great. That's awesome to hear. Priscilla, what about you?   Priscilla Lacerda  09:04 To be honest with you, in my specific case, because most of my experience was in my home country, one surprise that I had was that here in Canada, each province regulates its electrical system separately, and has their own model. While in Brazil, all the utilities are nationally regulated by one energy board.   Trevor Freeman  09:22 Yeah, it's certainly a complex landscape that I think, you know, folks outside of the sector don't always appreciate and you know, they don't need to worry about that, because we worry about it, but it is a complex regulatory sector. So Priscilla will stay with you. I'd like to dive a little bit deeper into your role in what you do. You talked about your role in reporting on grid performance. So that's our outage and reliability reporting, as well as financial reporting related to grid operations. Tell us why that's important for a distribution company like Hydro Ottawa.   Priscilla Lacerda  09:55 As I mentioned before, Hydro Ottawa is regulated by the Ontario Energy Board, so it's crucial to maintain a reliable and cost effective grid. Our primary objective as a distribution company is with the customers. As we continually strive to improve performance for our customers, we need to maintain quality data to derive critical business insights and make informed business decisions.   Trevor Freeman  10:18 Great. So following up on that, do you see, you know, smart technology or AI or anything else coming in and, you know, changing the way that we report in the future?   Priscilla Lacerda  10:31 Yes, I see smart technologies and the blockchain is doing proof predictive analysis, and also anticipating potential issues and trends in the grid performance. Also, smart grids enable real time monitoring of various aspects of grid operations. And that's extremely beneficial as it will provide more up to date data.   Trevor Freeman  10:52 Great. Alana, we're gonna jump over to you here and kind of do the same thing, dig a little bit deeper into what your previous answer was. So you mentioned things like EV charging infrastructure for some of our customers that own large buildings. Are you seeing more of our customers look to what we might call, you know, emerging technologies to meet their own needs or the needs of their own customers or building occupants?   Alana Jones  11:15 Yeah, good question. We are seeing many, many people come to us to see what their options are for the implementation of EV chargers. If you are an EV driver looking to buy a condo in the city, having that infrastructure at home to charge is a must. And every year more and more people are driving EVs. So definitely, I would say building owners are looking to the future of electrification of vehicles and accommodating their building occupants. And we also see a huge push from dealerships to get chargers installed, whether they have requirements they need to meet, or whether they want to be the ones to get their hands on the latest EV models first. They are really interested in having that infrastructure already in place to accommodate current and future needs for it. There's also a goal, I think, not to be behind the eight ball when the time comes. And when everyone is rushing to get it done. So 2035 isn't that far away. And year after year, the increase in EV sales jumps, so getting your establishment ready for that, I think, is a must. And the last bit is funding. It's a huge early adoption incentive and government funding isn't going to be around forever. And as a company, we're able to secure a ton of funding for our clients. And it really drives down the cost of these easy installation projects.   Trevor Freeman  12:25 Geat. And you know, you can't really talk about EVs or electrification without you knowing, at least considering sustainability and climate goals. Do you find that your customers' goals when it comes to hitting a netzero target or just reducing emissions? Does that really impact the decisions they're making? And as a result, is that impacting your work?   Alana Jones  12:44 Yeah, absolutely. I believe the government mandate that all passenger vehicles being sold as of 2035, must be electric. And I think 20% by 2026, has had a huge impact on our clients, specifically dealerships. And some don't have any infrastructure in place at all, or even the capacity for the EV needs we're finding. So if service upgrades are required, that pushes the timeline of getting these EV chargers installed further and further away. We're also noticing municipalities looking to get fleets electrified, as well as looking to have larger service vehicles converted over to evey and everyone knows it's coming. And for some, it's been kept on the back burner. But like I said, 2035 really isn't that far away. So as a company, we are definitely growing to meet the demand of our customers. And so that's really a good sign of things moving in the right direction. And we know ultimately, it'll be better for the environment. Right? If all passenger vehicles and eventually working vehicles move to electric, that's not a secret. I think overcoming insecurities around electric vehicles is a big hurdle that many of us still have to get over. And I think that as battery technology improves, more affordable models are available. And the increase in public use chargers which we see happening rapidly, more and more people will get on board what I'll call the EV train.   Trevor Freeman  14:00 Right? Yeah, that's great to hear. Okay, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. So both of you are closer to the beginning of your career. I'm curious about how your experience so far has influenced how you see your own future path within the energy industry or elsewhere. Priscilla, why don't we start with you.   Priscilla Lacerda  14:18 Well, my current experience gives me a holistic view of the company, as it deals with different departments, which makes me think about pursuing a management career in the future.   Trevor Freeman  14:29 And do you see that - like, so you're in the distribution, part of the business now and specifically focused on reporting? Is that kind of where you have your eye or are you looking at other parts of the business?   Priscilla Lacerda  14:41 Well, working with distribution has always been rewarding for me. So I'd say I would like to continue to work with this. What makes me most fulfilled about the role that I'm currently playing is being able to help other departments identify possibilities for improvement in existing or new processes.   Trevor Freeman  14:59 Great, Alana, what about you?   Alana Jones  15:02 Um, I believe it's a really exciting time to be an engineer working in the energy sector, there are new and emerging technologies. It's fast paced, and there is an abundance of work to be done. I'm just excited to be a part of it. Um, the industry isn't going anywhere. And like I said, it's growing rapidly. So having the experience to work alongside some really bright people on the bleeding edge of these technologies, is a really great opportunity. And hopefully, I'll have a career in this for years to come.   Trevor Freeman  15:30 Awesome. So I'm curious to hear from both of you. What do you think are some of the biggest challenges facing the energy industry right now? And Alana will let you kick that off?   Alana Jones  15:41 Yeah. I think one major challenge is having the infrastructure to support the electrification of buildings, homes, and all vehicles is a huge endeavor. And the grid needs to drastically increase in size and be ready to accommodate these future loads. And the pathway to net zero is a huge undertaking, and it will be challenging to achieve that, I believe. That's not to say it's not doable, but it's definitely a challenge and a massive investment. That being said, it's important to note that electrification changes are not happening all at once. Not everyone is switching to EV at the same time, or getting their buildings or homes all to net zero all at once. So I do believe that the Canadian grid is capable of growing gradually alongside those changes to be able to adapt.   Trevor Freeman  16:27 Great, Priscilla, what do you think?   Priscilla Lacerda  16:29 Well, one of the challenges the energy sector is facing right now is the urgency to meet the decarbonisation, and net zero targets. And this is driving significant electrification efforts across various sectors, as Alana just said, like transportation and construction, for example, because construction right now is changing, like the old heating and cooling gas systems for electric appliances. So being a key player in this scenario, Hydro Ottawa is working alongside partners, customers and suppliers to achieve our net zero goal for 2030. And also, we are committed to supporting our customers in their efforts to meet their own net zero targets amplifying our collective impact on sustainability.   Trevor Freeman  17:14 Yeah, great. I think you've both identified some pretty key challenges. And luckily, we've got great people like the two of you helping us get there. So I'm wondering if you guys have any advice that you would give to, you know, current students or people that are considering an engineering career or another career in the energy sector that you can pass on based on your experience? Priscilla, you can start us off.   Priscilla Lacerda  17:38 I would say seek opportunities, like internships or Co Op programs during your engineering studies. Because even though theoretical knowledge is essential. It's also important to know how to apply what you're learning in real life situations.   Trevor Freeman  17:54 Yeah, that's a great point, Alana, any great advice?   Alana Jones  17:57 Yeah, I agree, I would say absolutely get involved. It's a great opportunity to contribute to climate change solutions. I believe it's a stable industry with a ton of opportunities to learn about the latest and greatest technologies. As I mentioned before, I come from a mining community where it's not always stable. It's a very boom or bust industry. So when it's good, it's really good. But there are times the price of minerals drop and mines close, jobs are lost and communities become ghost towns. It's just not the same as it is in the energy sector. There is and will be for the foreseeable future and abundance of work and I believe in the need for skilled workers. So when choosing a path to take your career, I think the energy sector is one that I would highly recommend.   Trevor Freeman  18:40 Great, thanks for that. That's great to hear. Could you each talk about a misconception about the energy industry or your work that you think people might have that you'd like to, you know, let them know about?   Alana Jones  18:53 Sure. And a misconception around my work with electric vehicles and I see this a lot. I believe there's a lot of insecurities around EVs, so battery ranges, one especially in colder climates, like Ottawa. Battery technology, though, is constantly improving, and there are ways to mitigate the effects of the cold weather on your battery. Things like preconditioning your battery by turning it on, turning on the heat for even 10 minutes before driving. Some vehicles even offer a winter weather feature that helps keep the battery in an ideal temperature zone. Another aspect is that five years ago, the landscape looked much different when getting from point A to point B. Now public EV infrastructures are everywhere. When you look at the EV charging maps and cities. They're just covered and it's only getting better. The government just announced a $1.2 billion investment to build 84,000 chargers across the country by 2029. So it's likely you won't be able to go anywhere without seeing a charger. And I think as more and more chargers are put on the map people will be more accepting of the technology or realize that it's not going anywhere and realize that it is a huge opportunity for us individuals to reduce our carbon footprint. Lastly, I think it's difficult for people to commit to the initial investment into electric vehicles. I think for a lot of people, they see the price tag on an EV . And that prevents them from taking that leap, I guess. But initial investment and cost of ownership are two different things. My hope is that the government incentives continue, just to help the average Canadian consumer be able to afford an EV and make that initial shift, because studies show that operating costs are significantly lower than that of a gasoline fueled counterpart.   Trevor Freeman  20:32 Yeah, that's great. I think it's a really important kind of misconception to talk about. And I'm hopeful that we're starting to see a shift in that. And obviously, the, you know, great work that you guys are doing an inquiry is helping alleviate some of those concerns and challenges. Priscilla, what about you, what's a misconception that you want to address?   Priscilla Lacerda  20:51 So I would like to raise awareness to a common misconception that electrical engineering is only for men. I read on the internet that women represent less than 20% of the engineering professionals in Canada. And I think we need to encourage more women to be a part of the energy industry and let them know that they are capable of succeeding in this field.   Trevor Freeman  21:12 Yeah, that's a great one as well. And and I agree, having gone through kind of engineering school and obviously working in this industry, what I will say is, it's really refreshing and encouraging to have, you know, really smart, passionate people like the two of you, kind of coming up in our organizations and, you know, hopefully eventually taking on more and more roles and leadership roles. So great to have you guys here today and talk about it. So thanks very much for the conversation. So far, I really appreciate hearing more about your experiences, how you got to where you are and what you're kind of looking at moving forward. To wrap up our conversation, there's a bit of a tradition on the show to ask some rapid fire questions. For the regular listeners out there. Just be warned, I may have changed them up a little bit. So they might be a little bit different from what you're used to hearing. But it's fresh for the two of you. So why don't we dive right in you both ready for the rapid fire portion of the interview?   Alana Jones  22:10 Ready?   Priscilla Lacerda  22:11 Yes.   Trevor Freeman  22:12 Awesome. Okay, so we're gonna start with Alana. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?   Alana Jones  22:20 1984 by George Orwell. Have a read if you have not already. You'll see its relevance throughout history and even present day and I find that very fascinating.   Trevor Freeman  22:31 Yeah, that's a good one. Priscilla, what about you?   Priscilla Lacerda  22:34 Well, for me, it's The Little Prince, because it seems like a simple story at first, but then it's actually very philosophical. And every time that I read, it makes me reflect a lot.   Trevor Freeman  22:45 Yeah, those are I mean, I'm not really supposed to provide commentary on the rapid fire part, but I'm going to anyway, those are both great answers. And great books like ones you can read over and over again and kind of get a little bit more out of it each time you read. So awesome answers to that. So same question, but for a movie or a show. What's a movie or a show that you think everyone should watch, Priscilla?   Priscilla Lacerda  23:08 So, a movie that I like very much is The Pursuit of Happiness, because it's about perseverance in adverse life situations.   Trevor Freeman  23:18 Great Alana. What about you?   Alana Jones  23:20 The Shawshank Redemption, I love a good comeback story.   Trevor Freeman  23:24 Nice, awesome. If somebody offered you a free round trip - just for the record, I'm not offering you a free round trip - But if somebody offered you a free round trip flight to anywhere in the world, where would you go? Alana?   Alana Jones  23:37 I would love to go relax in the south of France with some wine, the warm weather and tour around on a big old boat.   Trevor Freeman  23:46 Perfect Priscilla, what but you   Priscilla Lacerda  23:49 Scotland seems like a magical place to visit.   Trevor Freeman  23:53 Yeah, it sure was a great answer. Who is someone that you admire? Priscilla?   Priscilla Lacerda  23:59 So for me, it's my husband because he was truly brave to leave everything behind in our home country to emigrate with me.   Trevor Freeman  24:07 Yeah, that can't have been easy for either of you. Alana, what about you?   Alana Jones  24:11 I would also say my spouse, he's the hardest working person I know and a great provider. He's also the best dad, we have three young boys and they absolutely adore him. He can be out working all day and still come home with energy to wrestle and play with them. And he just teaches them so many useful life skills. And I really, really adore watching them learn from them.   Trevor Freeman  24:31 Awesome. That's great answer. Okay, so I mean, these are typically not topic relevant questions, but I'm going to slip one in here as part of our rapid fire section. What is an emerging technology or trend in the energy sector that you're most excited about and that you think will have a massive impact? Priscilla, why don't you start?   Priscilla Lacerda  24:51 So the trend of buying an electric vehicle in our daily lives is having a massive impact on how we need to prepare this system to absorb the growing demand for power in residential and commercial units. I think this will also have a huge impact on the environment too. Because electric cars batteries will need to be discarded or recycled once they reach their lifespan.   Trevor Freeman  25:15 Yeah, I think you're totally right EVs are kind of that first technology when we look at the energy transition, the one that's maybe the furthest along, there's others to come. But I think you're totally right. It's the one that really we're starting to see what some of the challenges and opportunities are for that. So great answer, Alana, what about you?   Alana Jones  25:34 Yeah, so an emerging technology I was recently introduced to a company that produces wireless inductive charging for vehicles. So if you can imagine, there are these charging pads, basically, they're placed in the ground, and your vehicle gets equipped with a receiver that when you drive over these pads, charging is engaged, there's no need for wires or plugs or even to step out of your vehicle for that matter. It just seems like a really great technology. And I'm really anxious to see if it will be in Ottawa anytime soon. If we'll be seeing that around.  Where do you see the applications for that? Is that like in parking garages? Or parking lots? Or is that something embedded in the road when you drive over it? Yeah, it is embedded in the road. So the company works with a few, they've already done these installations with a few other companies. One thing we're busing fleets. So they have these large buses that go in charge, instead of doing it at the depot, they can kind of go in their lane, and they're really fast charging, and things like that. So it's a good application for that for larger vehicles as well.   Trevor Freeman  26:33 It's definitely one of those sectors, or those areas that you know, some of the possibilities out there are pretty exciting to see about how we might, you know, envision our lives in the future. Makes you think of those, you know, articles or those magazines that say this is what life is going to be like in 2050. And imagine if we're all driving around charging our cars while we drive, I think that's pretty cool. Okay, well, thank you both for joining me today. It's been really great getting to know you and hearing a little bit more about what you do and how you got to where you are. I'm really excited for you both as you continue to chart your career paths and decide, you know, where your interests and your passions lie and kind of follow that. But really, I'm glad we've got smart folks like you who are going to be helping us shape the future of energy, maybe chasing down those roads that charge our cars. So thanks very much for joining me. I really appreciate it.   Alana Jones  27:21 Thanks, Trevor. I appreciate you having us on the show.   Priscilla Lacerda  27:24 Yeah, thank you very much. It was awesome.   Trevor Freeman  27:26 Great. Thanks, guys. To everyone else out there. Thanks for listening, and we'll chat next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review and really help us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com  

Thinkenergy launched May 2019, with host Dan Séguin leading the charge to demystify the fast-changing world of energy. From helping Canadians better understand the sector to sharing insights from industry leaders and experts, Dan is a key reason why thinkenergy is the podcast for conversations around the future of energy. In his last episode as host, Dan passes the mic to Trevor Freeman, Supervisor, Key Accounts at Hydro Ottawa. Listen in as they share favourite episodes, what’s to come and more. Related links   Daniel Séguin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-s%C3%A9guin-a29b4130/ Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today's show is going to be a little different. This is a bittersweet episode of thick energy podcasts. Today marks the end of an era for me on this incredible journey through the world of energy. It's been an honor and a privilege to share stories, insights, and innovations with all of you these many years on the show. But as they say, all good things must come to an end. Today, I'm excited to introduce you to the new Captain steering this ship into the future, someone who is just as passionate and knowledgeable about the energy sector than I am, maybe a little more. So. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming your new host of the think energy podcast. Trevor Freeman. Trevor, welcome to the show.   Trevor Freeman  01:21 Thanks very much, Dan. And thanks for having me on and entrusting me with this project. I just want to start by recognizing all the hard work that you and your team have put into building thinkenergy into what it is today. It's a great community of listeners who are enthusiastic and curious about all things energy related. I've really enjoyed following along. And I'm thrilled to be joining the think energy team as we continue to explore this dynamic and ever changing world of energy at this really critical time in our industry.   Dan Seguin  01:50 Trevor, for our listeners, perhaps you can tell us about yourself, your expertise in the energy sector in short, what is your role now? And how did you get here?   Trevor Freeman  02:02 Sure. So I'm an environmental engineer who has been in the sustainability and energy field for about 14 years now. Right when I graduated out of university, I spent about four years working in international development and water and sanitation. But I'm coming back home to Canada I decided to explore this passion for sustainability and environmental improvement. And I made the shift to working in green building design and energy management. I worked in consulting and helping building owners primarily commercial real estate, improve their buildings, reduce energy consumption and costs, and incorporate sustainable thinking into their day to day business operations. I joined Hydro Ottawa about eight years ago now, first working on our conservation and demand management team, before making the jump over to our key accounts team, which I now lead. As the leader of the key accounts team, we support some of our largest commercial customers with all things related to energy, we're here to be their trusted advisors, whether that's routine questions or access to various services that Hydro Ottawa offers, or looking ahead, as more and more of our customers start to plan their own decarbonisation, or energy transition pathways. It's really a great role that helps my team and I really understand the needs and drivers of our customers, which are ultimately the end users of the energy that gets talked about on this podcast so often, that understanding helps Hydro Ottawa plan to meet the needs of those customers moving forward.   Dan Seguin  03:37 Okay, aside from fame and fortune, what drew you to take on this role of hosting the podcast?   Trevor Freeman  03:45 Well, I mean, since I can't talk about the first two, which are really the main drivers. In addition to being an engineer, I'm actually really passionate about communicating complex items. I know the term 'good communication' is not always associated with engineers, and I'm allowed to make that joke. But I really do enjoy having, you know, those tough conversations about complex and technical topics, whether that's how the grid works, to the changing landscape and technologies associated with energy to simply how does your electricity bill work? Or how does a building mechanical system work? I really enjoy having those conversations. And this seems like a great opportunity. So that plus seeing all the great conversations you've been able to have over the past years, with some really fantastic folks who are doing really great things, made it an easy decision to step into the role when the opportunity arose.   Dan Seguin  04:37 Very cool, Trevor, sorry, but I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Do you have any favorite episodes of rhe thinkenergy podcast that resonate with you?   Trevor Freeman  04:48 Sure. I'm actually going to cheat here, Dan, and give you three but I promise I'll be quick. So the first one is an episode that you did about residential heat pumps, with our mutual colleague Sean Carr. So I'm a little bit biased in this one because not only do I know Shawn story very well, but I actually went through my own heat pump journey about four years ago when I installed the hybrid heating system and my own house. And I think the more we talk about the benefits and the challenges of electrifying home heating, the easier we make that step for everyone else, who's going to be doing it as well. The second one I'm going to pick is your interview with Hydro Ottawa's CEO, Bryce Conrad, about our own netzero ambitions as an organization. So folks can go back and listen for themselves. But as a member of the Hydro Ottawa team, I was really inspired by the ambition and the drive to be a leader, and commit to something bold and lofty, even though we don't necessarily have all the answers about exactly how we're going to get there. And finally, I really loved your conversation with Dr. Monica Gettinger about the conversation we need to have around the future of energy, specifically her Positive Energy Program. As someone who is really passionate about taking action around climate change. I'm all too aware that as much as we finally seem to be getting some consensus that climate change is indeed a problem, there's still a lot of polarizing views about how to address the issue and how fast to move. Dr. Gettinger's work on building consensus and having a constructive dialogue was really refreshing to hear and made me really optimistic about where we can go with this.   Dan Seguin  06:22 Cool. Okay, now, what excites you about the future of energy?   Trevor Freeman  06:28 Yeah, I think this is a really great time to be in the energy fields, things feel like they're changing rapidly. And it seems like we're on the cusp of a real evolution of how we power our lives and our society. Whether it's what kind of energy we use - clean energy versus emissions producing energy, where that energy comes from, you know, centrally produced versus distributed, and how much control over that energy, the end users. So that's the homes and the businesses have through things like self generation and storage and smart technology. And that's not even talking about how that smart technology and AI is going to impact all of the above. So above all, I think I'm really excited to be working in an industry. That's really one of the major tools we have as a society to combat climate change. Electricity, while not the only answer is a major avenue for decarbonisation, and I really love being a part of that.   Dan Seguin  07:28 Okay, Trevor, are there any topics or themes from your experience that you'd like to explore further on show? What can our listeners expect?   Trevor Freeman  07:38 Honestly, Dan, I hope it's more of the same as what you've been doing over these past years. So that's talking to smart folks who are doing really cool things in the energy industry, especially around decarbonisation, and the energy transition that includes helping demystify some of those more complex topics for our listeners, you know, how does this big machine that we call the electricity grid in the energy industry? How does that all work? And what does it mean for our consumers, and then getting into the weeds on the energy transition, whether that's specific technologies or policy ideas, or more likely a mix of the both because you really can never have one without the other?   Dan Seguin  08:16 Very cool. Thanks, Trevor.   Trevor Freeman  08:19 Thank you, Dan. So I think this is the part where I get to take over. Now your listeners will know that you've been sitting behind the microphone for a number of years now, but I don't think anybody has ever interviewed you. So let's take this opportunity to ask you a couple of questions. So first of all, I was thinking maybe you could take us back to the beginning and tell us what inspired you to start this podcast?   Dan Seguin  08:43 Well, our first podcast for those who don't remember, it was released in May of 2019. The topic was Microgeneration, wow! Ee explored the possibility, back then, of turning your home into your own virtual power plant. Now, the reason why we dove into podcasting was driven by the fact that we were looking for a product a platform that could help demystify maybe better understand the fast changing world of energy. We were looking for a product where we could maybe better shape the narrative, you know, by leveraging influencers and subject matter expert. It provided us with greater ability if you want to maximize the reach of the podcast, but also its amplification. Also, working with a captive audience like minded people, is much easier. Finally, another reason we gravitated to podcasting was to deal with info obesity, great term here, you know, cluster and noise on channels is constantly increasing and customer attention span is shrinking. So podcasts were convenient and very easy to consume. They're poor. audible. You can listen to them in a gym, drive to work or even on a plane. So it was a great choice for us to do and it worked very well. Now, if I look back five years, I think that podcasts have been extremely sticky. This long form content, basically had a great listen rate. And for us, I think we did good.   Trevor Freeman  10:24 Great. Thanks, Dan. I can tell already that I've got a lot to learn on the communication side of things and marketing what we do here. On the podcast, do you have a favorite moment or more than one from doing the show that you want to share a favorite episode or something that really stands out and encapsulates the essence of think energy?   Dan Seguin  10:45 So you're asking me to pick my favorite child? That's a tough one. Okay. Well, I think the one that comes into mind is the episode with a disaster volunteer from the Canadian Red Cross. As we all know, we've experienced a pandemic, a number of natural disasters in the last couple of years, devastating wind storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, freezing rain, forest fires and floods. And when disaster strikes, electricity supply is usually jeopardized. So during these large scale, emergencies, emergency response becomes critical. And in this interview, we explored what it's like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. It's a very cool episode.   Trevor Freeman  11:36 Over the past number of years of doing this, what has been the most significant change or changes and developments in the energy sector that you've seen?   Dan Seguin  11:44 I think it's the acknowledgement of reducing our environmental footprint, the commitment to provide innovative sustainable solutions, things like achieving net zero operations. Also, climate change, coupled with the push for electrification is now driving a lot of innovation and change in our sector. What comes to mind is that greater push towards renewable energy, expanding access to EV infrastructure, as zero emission with public transit, there's a lot going on. And let's not forget the evolution of customers. They are no longer passive consumers of electricity, some of them are now becoming prosumers, managing, generating and selling their energy. So the energy landscape is in a constant flux. And it's going to be an exciting ride.   Trevor Freeman  12:40 So as I sit here, behind the microphone on this side of the desk, what advice do you have for me taking on this podcasts around that ever evolving world of energy?   Dan Seguin  12:50 This is not going to be long winded. Always make sure the content provides value for the audience. You must be audience driven. Be curious, and have fun. That's it.   Trevor Freeman  13:04 Perfect. Sounds easy. So Dan, as you step away from hosting, what comes next? Are we going to be competing for podcast listeners or what's in your future?   Dan Seguin  13:12 Not at all. I'll be spending a lot more time with my wife. I'm going to continue my karate journey. I'm going to master pickleball my word. I want to do bike rail trails across Canada in the US. And I'm looking forward to joining the ever growing generation of snowbirds in Florida. While renovating my condo in Naples and enjoying the beach.   Trevor Freeman  13:40 As long as you put some solar on that condo, Dan, I think that sounds like an awesome plan. So finally, just to wrap it all up again, our regular listeners will know that you have subjected your guests to some on the spot rapid fire questions. And again, I don't think you've ever answered them yourselves. So I think it's time that we get to hear what your answers to those questions would be. So are you ready?   Dan Seguin  14:03 I am.   Trevor Freeman  14:04 Here we go. What are you reading right now?   Dan Seguin  14:07 Right now I'm reading Forever Young by Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. It's a book on strategies for aging.   Trevor Freeman  14:13 Well, sounds appropriate given your coming retirement. So what would you name your boat if you had one? And do you have one?   Dan Seguin  14:21 I do not. I used to have a pontoon boat when I lived by the lake, but I would call it now, I think, Gilligan.   Trevor Freeman  14:29 Who is someone that you admire?   Dan Seguin  14:31 Hands down my life partner, my better half, France, my wife.   Trevor Freeman  14:35 I know that if I'd have asked you to name two people, I would have been number two.   Dan Seguin  14:38 Oh, absolutely.   Trevor Freeman  14:39 I know that like many of us, you are probably guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and streaming platforms over the last number of years. So what's your favorite movie or show?   Dan Seguin  14:49 Okay, well, the best Netflix series hands down is Peaky Blinders. And for me the best movies I'll go with three. The Godfather, Memento and Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.   15:03 Well Dan, I think we've reached the end of this transition episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again for pulling me in and then trusting this with me. And thanks for sharing a little bit about your life with us today.   Dan Seguin  15:16 Very cool. Thank you very much.   Trevor Freeman  15:18 And finally, what excites you about the energy industry right now?   Dan Seguin  15:22 Well, I think I alluded to this earlier, I think what's exciting me is seeing how the electricity grid, how utilities across North America will cope with a millions of EVs should be interesting.   Trevor Freeman  15:36 You'll have to come back in Dan and check in on things in a year or two. And we've got it all figured out. No doubt. So Dan, I think that's it. I think we've reached the end of this transition episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again for having me on for entrusting this with me, and for sharing a little bit about your insights and your life with us on this episode.   Dan Seguin  15:58 Thank you, Trevor. There you have it, folks, thank you all for being part of this amazing community. And I look forward to tuning in now as a listener. From now on. This is Dan Seguinsigning off and passing the microphone over to Mr. Trevor Freeman.   Trevor Freeman  16:17 Thanks, Dan. It's been a pleasure.   Dan Seguin  16:20 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Rewind episode: The pressure to tackle pollution and climate change is increasing, as countries worldwide are eliminating greenhouse gases and moving away from fossil fuels. This shift towards a cleaner future has a lot of moving parts, especially as it relates to cleaning Canada’s energy sector. Merran Smith, founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada, joins us to talk about whether Canada can affordably and realistically accelerate our clean energy transition to reach our net zero goals.   Related links LinkedIn, Merran Smith: https://www.linkedin.com/in/merran-smith-64603b63/  LinkedIn, Clean Energy Canada: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clean-energy-canada/ Clean Energy Canada: https://cleanenergycanada.org/   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod ---- Trancript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today, we're coming clean about what clean energy could look like in the near future. That's right. And with the help of our guests, we're going to define what clean energy means, specifically for Canada and the future of electricity. There is a rising pressure around the globe to transition away from fossil fuels, eliminate greenhouse gases, and challenge the status quo when it comes to pollution and tackling climate change. What does that mean for Canada and our place in a clean energy world? Obviously, there's a lot of moving parts when it comes to cleaning Canada's energy sector, particularly when it comes to transportation, and heating of our buildings. But there's more to it than just that. There's renewable energy, revamping and expanding the electricity grid and conserving energy. Not to mention innovation and technology that doesn't exist yet. That will all play a role in getting us to Canada's Net Zero targets. So here's today's big question. Can Canada affordably and realistically accelerate its transition to clean energy in time? Our guest today is Marren Smith, Founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada is a leading Think Tank, advancing clean energy and climate solutions. Marren has won numerous awards for her work and also serves as co chair of the BC government's Climate Solutions Council. Okay, Marren, let's kick things off by telling our listeners about yourself, your work, and what Clean Energy Canada is.   Marren Smith  02:23 Yeah, so I'll start with Clean Energy Canada, we're a think tank based at Simon Fraser University's Center for dialogue. And we focus on solutions to accelerate the transition to a clean energy economy. And so what do we actually do? You know, we do think tank things like analysis and policy advice. But what makes us really different is that one, we focus on the solutions, not the problems, all about solutions to we really like to bring together business industry unions, get everybody in the room and see if we can get consensus around the advice to governments so that they can move solutions forward faster. And thirdly, what we do is we do a lot of talking to Canadians about the energy transition, how it links to jobs, to a nick strong economy and more affordability. And so we think of ourselves actually as a do tank and not a think tank. And myself, I'm a fellow at Simon Fraser University, I founded Clean Energy Canada, I'm now moved on, I'm no longer the Executive Director. I'm the Chief Innovation Officer. And I had been asked over the years, in the last 10 years doing this work, to co chair a number of Climate and Energy advisory bodies for both the federal and British Columbia governments. And I think that's because I have a pretty long track record of bringing together unusual allies around solutions to environmental energy and economy problems. So that's a bit about me.   Dan Seguin  04:09 Now, I'm somewhat curious, how does Clean Energy Canada define clean energy? Is it in relation to zero emissions? Or is there more to it than that?   Marren Smith  04:22 Yeah, so for us, we talk about clean energy spanning both energy supply. So renewable electricity, for example, solar, wind, thermal, but also demand. And so our definition of clean energy includes, like, as I said, renewable electricity generation, but also energy storage, energy transmission, energy efficiency, and any of the technologies or services that decarbonize transportation buildings in these and other polluting parts of our economy. So we have a fairly large definition of clean energy. And you know it really, when you look at it, that is what energy is all about. It's not just about making the energy. It's about how you use it and the technology so that you can use it more efficiently.   Dan Seguin  05:18 Clean Energy Canada has been advocating for climate action since 2010; 12 years in what are three positive changes that have made the biggest impact in Canada? And what is one that has hindered success?   Marren Smith  05:37 Yeah, this is a great question. So the three positive changes that I see is, one, the cost of these clean energy technologies have dropped significantly. So the the solutions are cheaper. Secondly, is that we've really moved past the climate debate in Canada. And thirdly, is electric vehicles. And I just want to talk a bit about each of those if that's okay, so the costs of clean energy technologies, many people don't understand that. Over this last decade, the cost of solar has dropped yet again, it's dropped another 90%. Over those last decade, the cost of batteries, which are the heart of an electric vehicle have dropped about 90%, wind has dropped about 40%. And so, you know, a dozen years ago, clean energy Canada was talking about this is coming, we need to prepare Canada needs to be aware as an oil and gas producer, we need to be looking at this clean energy transition. But now, it's here, these technologies are ready for primetime. And the eccotemp economic opportunities are there to create jobs here in Canada around those clean energies. So that's significant. Um, the second one is I think we've all lived through and seen in the news, this debate about whether Canada should be acting on climate, whether it's real, whether Canada has any responsibility, whether it's feasible. And that's now become a real global conversation. And there's a clear message globally that we need to act now. And, you know, we've had over this last six years, federal government, with the leadership that's aligning with those global efforts to act on climate. And in fact, this federal government has created the first climate plan that Canada's had to meet our climate targets, and they're now really putting it into action. And so that's been a significant and positive shift that we're actually moving to action. And thirdly, is around electric vehicles. And, you know, I just have to say them specifically. Because, in my observation, they really show Canadians what the transition looks like. It kind of looks like what it used to be, you know, an electric vehicle and a gas fired vehicle, they look pretty similar. But people are seeing how much better they are that they are more affordable to drive, and especially the today's price of gas, you know, if you're plugging in and charging your car, you know, your Chevy Bolt and getting 400 kilometers for somewhere, you know, depending on where you live in Canada, five to ten dollars versus what it's costing to fill up your car that's significant. So electric vehicles and how fast they have come online, how we have seen, the manufacturers shift is to go from, we're resisting this to this as the future we want to be out in front and competing to be the ones who are going to be producing them. So that dramatic shift, it's really showing how we can link this decarbonisation climate action with the economy, that our industries can be successful and that we can really move forward towards netzero towards decarbonisation towards cleaner energies. And, you know, continue with a strong economy if we do at night, right if we act now. And I guess Lastly, about electric vehicles, it's for anybody who hasn't gotten in one yet, you really should, because they're pretty fun to drive. And that's what we want this energy transition to be. We want it to be make life better. And I think electric vehicles are just one way that people can see how, you know, once you get over the hurdle of purchasing one, it does make life better, cleaner air, more affordable to drive. Now, you asked the other question, what's hindered success? And I would say what's really hindered Canada's movement on all of this has been the debate and the governments that have really ripped up climate action or refused to move forward on climate action. And, you know, that's created uncertainty. So we've seen various governments in Ontario in Alberta, you know, federally across the country, I shouldn't just name those provinces, because across the country, governments who come in and who are not willing to take action on climate and really want to stick with the static quo. And that really creates a lot of uncertainty for business and doesn't drive the change. I'm really hopeful that we're not going to see that anymore. You know, now that we've seen this new inflation reduction act out of the United States, it is sending a clear signal that this is the biggest economic opportunity that there has been, you know, in this generation, absolutely. To drive and build this clean energy economy, they are investing heavily in it. And we're going to see in the United States, those kinds of investments happening all over the country, you know, in red states and blue states, blue collar workers are going to be you know, being employed in plants, white collar workers, rural urban, this, this is going to be a massive, massive growth for industries and the economy, in producing electricity producing batteries and producing all the component pieces towards them hydrogen, retrofitting buildings. So there is a huge boom coming. And I hope that in Canada, we actually see our government picking up on that as well and linking this decarbonisation with our economic strategy.   Dan Seguin  11:55 Marren, what do you mean when you state that the Clean Energy Transition is a once in a generation opportunity for Canada to build a resilient, growing and inclusive economy?   Marren Smith  12:10 Yeah, so we've just talked about how we're really seeing around the globe, you know, the United States, but we've been seeing this in the EU and the UK and China, this, you know, linking up their industrial strategy, their economic strategy, to their economic strategies. And so Canada really has what it takes to make this shift as well to, you know, take action on climate decarbonize and really shift from fossil fuels oriented economy to a clean energy or renewable energy economy. So we have the natural resources that are going to be needed, you know, those metals and minerals, for example, we're going to be needing that steel, that cobalt, that nickel to be building the transmission lines, the solar panels, and in particular, the batteries, which are really the heart of the clean energy system. So Canada has what it takes. And then secondly, we've got the clean electricity or grids about 83% clean or zero mission right now. We've got a skilled labor force. So that's what the opportunity is, it's going to be a massive effort for us to retool our existing industries and build some of these new industries. But we've got the potential to do it.   Dan Seguin  13:40 Next question. Now, what makes Canada well positioned to be a global clean energy leader?   Marren Smith  13:48 So Canada's got the natural resources that we talked about metals and minerals, forest products, agricultural products, we've got great solar and wind resources and a grid that's already at 3% zero emission. We have great potential for green hydrogen. And, you know, we've got great trading relationships with the US as well as Europe and Asia. So we are positioned to be creating clean energy and one of the things that we are uniquely positioned around our batteries. Batteries are going to be the heart of the energy system. So they're obviously the heart of the electric vehicle. But also, large scale batteries are going to be what backs up that intermittent or variable wind and solar and renewable energies, they're going to be a part of the system as well. And so Canada is the only country in the Western world. It's actually the only democratically elected country that has all the metals and minerals needed to produce batteries. So In addition, we've got the good clean electricity to actually manufacture those metals and minerals and turn them into, you know, refine them, turn them into cells and ultimately batteries. So we've got the key components there. And that one huge opportunity for Canada. And we're seeing you know, this federal government has been working with Ontario and Quebec and landing some significant battery company investments, you know, GM and Bay calm for this year, LG and still Lantus in Ontario. So that's I some of the key parts of why Canada is so well positioned to be a clean energy leader.   Dan Seguin  15:45 Next question for you. What are the strategies you employ to achieve your mission to accelerate Canada's transition to a renewably powered economy?   Marren Smith  15:56 Yeah, so one, I think that we work with businesses, industry unions, to understand what their needs are, you know, we're positioned at the Center for dialogue at Simon Fraser University. And so we use dialogue, bring people together, structure it so that we can have a deliberate conversation that gets us to advice for government. So that's one of the strategies we employ. A second one is, you know, we look around the world and we find out what policies are working elsewhere, what programs, what are other countries doing that's working? And what can we glean out of that, and use in the Canadian context, and feed that kind of information to governments and to industry about what they can do next? Because Kevin does not the only one doing this, and there's a lot of countries that are ahead of us on this. So let's learn from them, and Canadian eyes it. And then lastly, we really have an eye to bringing the public along with us in this conversation, ensuring that they understand the Clean Energy Transition exactly what does it mean, understand some of the policies when they get controversial? And understand what's in it for them? You know, and right now we're seeing a public that is got, you know, a lot of insecurity going on with the global state of affairs, the war in the Ukraine, you know, this energy prices escalating, there's a lot of misinformation going on. And so, actually having the public understand and see how they fit into the energy transition, and how it's going to make life better for them, is, I'd say, a very important part of the transition. And so we do what we can we actually study how to communicate with the public and study language, what works with them, what resonates and how to get the stories to them that are going to help them understand this energy transition, what they can do, and what they can support.   Dan Seguin  18:06 Marren wondering if you could unpack for our listeners, what are some of the ways clean energy Canada has contributed to our country's progress in the last year or two?   Marren Smith  18:19 Yeah, so we have been working hard over the last couple of years. And I'll tell you about some of the significant achievements that I think we've been part of making happen. So first is about electric vehicles, or zero emission vehicles, as they're called in some circles. We see these as a key part of the solution, and one that is getting ready for primetime. They're a key part of the solution, because one quarter of Canada's carbon pollution is from transportation. So we've got to tackle this and about half of it from passenger vehicles, half of it's from trucks and buses. And so we've been working on both sides of that equation. And one of the things that had become the barrier has been supply of cars. At this point, people want them and we're seeing the uptake of those cars, you know, double and triple year over year. And so how do you get the supply here and how you do that through a policy called the zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the automakers to sell them in, in Canada. And so that's one that we've been working on. We actually were successful in getting one in British Columbia. And you know, and I have to report to you that so far in 2022 17% of new car sales have been electric vehicles. So that just far outpaces what people predicted. I think we were trying to get to 10% by 2025. We've blown through that we've now increased our targets because clearly for Colombians are ready to buy them. And there's similar types of stats from Quebec, who also has a zero emission vehicle mandate. The challenge for the rest of the country, and you know, if you're in Ottawa, you're probably going and putting your name on the list. And it's multiple years, you might not even be able to get on the list anymore, because there just aren't any cars. And so we need a federal zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the companies to the automakers to sell electric vehicles in Canada, or they're penalized. So that's one thing that we've made good progress on and contributed to. One that I haven't talked much about, that I'll mention here is about the steel sector, the cement sector, these heavy industries that are also heavy polluters. And, you know, so that's another area we've been working on and looking for solutions. We're looking at, okay, much of this steel, cement, aluminum, it's all being used in the construction industry. So how do we get those who are building things and buying things to demand low carbon steel, low carbon cement, which will really help these industries put it'll push them to to decarbonize and so that program is called by clean. The biggest purchaser of steel and cement and, and these types of things in the country is the government and we've been working to get the government to commit to a bike clean policy. The really interesting thing is that the steel sector, the cement sector, the aluminum sector V, these sectors are really on board to decarbonizing, this is globally happening. We're seeing all of these industries recognize that they cannot be admitting the scale of pollution, they are right now they've got to reduce that carbon pollution get to net zero. And so, again, we're seeing progress on reducing emissions in that sector. And we're seeing, you know, the United States and Canada have actually said that they are going to work together on this bike lanes so that both countries are pushing that they will procure, they will only purchase low, lower carbon, steel, cement, etc, for building our hospital, roads, schools, and all those good things. So that's another one that I'd say we could say we've been involved with, and batteries, I've already talked about it. We've been involved in the batteries for the last few years, and bringing together that sector, from the mining sector, all the way up to battery producers and electric vehicle, you know, the automatic factoring companies like GM, and all the way to the recyclers, and working with government to get, you know, a battery strategy for Canada to really ensure that we lock in and land the most jobs and the most opportunities for Canadians across the country. And these would be jobs in different provinces and opportunities for different provinces, you know, rural urban jobs, etc. So it's a big opportunity, but Canada's got to act quickly if we really want to get the most benefits from it. And by the most benefits, I mean, we could be creating a quarter of a million jobs by 2030 in this sector, which would be good for the country and will help us as we're transitioning, you know, out of other job sectors.   Dan Seguin  23:36 Okay, Marren, are you able to expand on some of Clean Energy Canada's short term goals?   Marren Smith  23:44 Yeah. So I would say right now, our top short term goal is around public awareness and understanding how shifting to clean energy is going to help affordability for Canadians. I think this is critical and important, because you know, this electrification, people are very sensitive to the price of electricity and increasing costs of electricity. And so there's a piece of work to ship to understanding what your overall energy costs are. So as we move off of fossil fuels, that means you're not spending as much on gas anymore. You know, for your gas fired car, but your electricity bill is going to go up. As you shift off of the having gas to heat and cool your home and shifting to an electric heat pump, their electricity bills can go up. We did some research earlier this year. Report called the true cost looking at some of the top models of cars in Canada, what it costs to purchase one plus run it over eight years, and we'll probably talk a bit more about this letter later. So just to say having Canadians under stand that this shift, while it's gonna have some costs in the short term is a more affordable and a better option for Canadians.   Dan Seguin  25:11 You recently contributed to a white paper with Electric Mobility Canada, on how Canada can design an effective zero emission vehicle mandate. I'm curious, what are some of your recommendations?   Marren Smith  25:27 Yeah. So, I'd say trying to do this in a nutshell. So first of all, is accountability. So we need to ensure that automakers are accountable and keeping pace with demand. And we need to do that with legally binding annual sales requirements so that they have to sell X percent of cars that are electric, and that there's serious financial penalties for non compliance. And that's, that's really the nuts and bolts of a good zero emission vehicle mandate. There's a whole bunch of details in there. Some provinces, like you mentioned, Quebec, and BC, they already have one, so we just need to use this in provinces that don't have them. And then our other key aspect of the recommendations was speed, we need to really finalize this regulation next year, so that it takes effect with model year 2024. There's really no time to wait on this. And we can see the demand for cars is there. We really need to be able to get them into the hands of people right now while they want them.   Dan Seguin  26:37 Now, for my first follow up question, we all know that the lack of supply is a big issue when it comes to zero emission vehicle sales. What's driving that? Are automakers prioritizing other markets? Where they're required to sell more EVs?   Marren Smith  27:00 Yeah, well, that's exactly what we're seeing here. In Canada, the majority of the electric vehicles are going to British Columbia and Quebec, because they're required to sell them there. And, you know, they're going to other states in the United States that have similar types of mandates California at one, but there's a button doesn't down there. And so they're sending them where they need to, you know, in the past, they have been making more money selling, you know, SUVs, for example, those bigger, heavier cars are where they've been making most of their profits. And so they're trying to get rid of those in Canada while they can. But this world is accelerating so quickly. You know, I think once we get the zero emission vehicle mandate, that rules so that the automakers have to sell the cars, we're going to start seeing them arrive in Canada, and we've seen, you know, the Detroit three have all been doubling and tripling their commitment for how fast they're going to start getting cars going and coming off the line. And I think we're going to only see that accelerate in the future. So I'm hoping that, you know, it looks like the automakers are more and more committing to be producing the cars. So the next obstacle is going to be the supply chain and whether they can get the batteries and get the other materials to make them.   Dan Seguin  28:34 Okay, another follow up question for you, Marren. Are there provinces in Canada that get prioritized for EV over others for example, Quebec, or maybe BC?   Marren Smith  28:46 Yeah, absolutely. That's why there's there certain car makes and models that you can only get in BC and Quebec, and that will be related to the zero emission vehicle mandate, you know, they, they get, there's a stick and if they don't sell enough cars, they get penalized. So they make sure the cars are in BC and Quebec and that's really the best selling feature for why we need this to be a national program and have a federal zero emission vehicle mandate.   Dan Seguin  29:16 Now hand in hand with that, you convened a select group of industry stakeholders and other experts to develop a report on advancing the Canadian evey battery sector. What were some of the key takeaways from those consultations?   Marren Smith  29:34 Yeah, so the report we produced which you can find on our website at talks about this opportunity, and it is huge to produce batteries. We're talking upwards of 250,000 jobs by 2030 and $40 billion annually going to the Canadian revenues. So that's a great opportunity, but it's not going to happen without you. No creating a strategy to get there. And that is the top recommendation from this group of industry and other experts. The Canadian battery Task Force is what they're called, the top recommendation is we need to have a Canadian battery strategy, which is going to ensure that we target and focus the investment dollars in the right place, that we get the workforce setup. Because, you know, while we do have a great workforce in Canada, we're going to need more workers and with the right skills, and that we make sure that we get the infrastructure, we get the electricity, the clean electricity to the right places, and then we've got enough of it. You know, we've seen almost every battery Manor battery manufacturing plant, that set up so far, has mentioned the zero emission electricity that you can get in Canada. And that's one of the reasons why they chose to build in Canada. And these are big global companies that are choosing to land in Ontario and Quebec so far. And so we just, we need that kind of strategy to ensure that we can get the most out of this battery opportunity.   Dan Seguin  31:16 I like that. Okay. Let's move on. Can you tell us about your recent analysis that found electric vehicles are in fact cheaper, often by a lot than their gas counterpart? What models were you comparing and what factors were considered?   Marren Smith  31:38 Yeah, so we looked at some of the best selling cars in Canada. Things like the Chevy Bolt as the electric versus its gas counterpart, the Toyota Corolla, the Hyundai Kona versus the electric Kona, the Nissan LEAF versus the Honda Civic etcetera. So we did this for a number of the top selling cars, we looked at purchasing it, as well as operating it and maintaining it over an eight year period. And, you know, what we found is that in almost every case, you were saving money. And you know, we've had to update this because the price of gas has gone up so much. But the total costs savings are going electric range from 10 to $15,000, over eight years. That's significant savings. And, you know, as you talked about, you know, you notice that there's almost no maintenance costs for an electric vehicle. And that your cost of fueling is, you know, so much cheaper. And this was before gas was at $2, a leader. So roughly back the envelope, you know, those savings are going to jump in, for example, the Kona to about $18,000 or more, a lot of people don't understand how much more affordable an electric vehicle is. And they look at the sticker price of buying a new car. And that's what turns them away. At you know, so we're encouraging people to really understand, look at the long term. And we know that not everybody can go buy a new car, I didn't buy a new car ever in my life till I bought an electric vehicle. I always bought used cars. But the savings are significant. And of course, the added bonus is the you know, zero emissions, you're part of the solution and helping with climate change.   Dan Seguin  33:42 Okay, a follow up question here. Were there any expectations here?   Marren Smith  33:47 Yeah, so the Ford electric F-150. It was pretty close. Probably now if we did it with the the price or cost of gas now, you would actually be more affordable on the Ford F-150 We haven't gone back to it. The other thing to note on this is that electric vehicles are really holding their value. So if you're someone who likes to buy a new car and sell it in eight or so years, your electric vehicle used car sales are much higher than when you buy a new gas fire vehicle and then sell it off.   Dan Seguin  34:27 When it comes to the electricity grid Canada is 83% emission free and with lower electricity rates than many other countries. We seem to be in an enviable position. But in your report underneath it all. Your findings show that Canada may not be as prepared for a carbon neutral world, as we may think. Now, for the big question, why is that?   Marren Smith  34:55 Yeah, we are ahead. But it's not just about Getting from 83% zero emission to 100%. If that was the only challenge before us, you know, it would take some work, but that's extremely doable. But this energy transition is really the whole sale, reengineering of many of our supply chains, almost the entirety of the energy system that powers the economy, it's huge. And we are going to need to double the amount of electricity we produce by 2050, as we shift our cars or homes or businesses off of fossil fuels and onto the grid. So that's the main message of our report is, you know, we need we have great opportunity here. But we need to double the size of the grid so that we are able to plug our cars and our home heating and cooling and our industries into that zero emission grid.   Dan Seguin  35:53 Okay, follow up question here. What are four reasons Canada needs to achieve 100%? clean electricity supply? And what are some of your recommendations?   Marren Smith  36:06 Yeah. So, you know, first off, it's so that we can effectively combat climate change. And that's, you know, top reason why we're doing this, it's also going to diversify and strengthen Canada's economy. You know, as I said, companies are looking to be powered by zero emission electricity. We've seen those battery plants coming here, one of the reasons cited, and there's more opportunities as more of the the world's industries really focus on how are they going to be net zero, for example, we see Walmart and Amazon, those companies are looking for supply chains that are zero emission, they're counting their carbon, and that includes their transportation. So it's, it's about making Canada competitive and ensuring that we are an attractive place because we can power our economy and our communities with clean electricity. The third reason is around the potential for indigenous reconciliation efforts in clean energy ownership. I think this is a very exciting opportunity. There's already a lot of indigenous communities that own or are partners in clean energy, and we can expand that as this moves forward. And then lastly, is we started talking about affordability on this podcast. And, you know, once you get over the purchasing of the new technologies, it's really more affordable to be plugged into a zero emission grid. And that's going to create more certainty, more security around energy supply.   Dan Seguin  37:51 Marren, what are some of the other benefits to increasing Canada's clean electricity supply?   Marren Smith  37:58 So you know, one, we need clean electricity to meet our climate targets. Secondly, it's around affordability. This is going to help make energy more affordable for communities. And then another benefit. It's clean air, of course, you know, once you shift off of diesel buses, for example, to electric buses out of diesel trucks to electric trucks, you're really cleaning up air quality in cities in particular, but in all communities. And then there's another potential benefit. You know, Canada, most people don't know this, we actually export 8%, for electricity right now to America, that brings in $2.6 billion. And you know, the US has the same commitments around getting to 100% clean electricity grid by 2035. There's a lot dirtier than ours, they've got a lot of catching up to do. And there's a potential for Canada that has an enormous wealth of potential for renewable electricity across the country. Places like you know, Alberta and Saskatchewan have incredible solar resources. We have wind opportunities, you know, offshore onshore. So there's potential for us to be investing in clean electricity, not just for our own needs, but as a immensely valuable export that's going to be in demand in the United States. And then link to that economic opportunity is green hydrogen. We're hearing more about hydrogen can something that Europe's looking at shifting off of natural gas onto green hydrogen, which is made you know, with water getting split with electricity and turned into hydrogen so that's a good clean energy source and something that candidate could also be a leader in.   Dan Seguin  39:56 Okay, tough part is over. We always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got some for you. Are you ready?   Marren Smith  40:07 I am. I'm ready. Okay,   Dan Seguin  40:09 So for the first one, what are you reading right now?   Marren Smith  40:12 So I just read picked up a book that I read a number of years ago, The Hearts Invisible Theories by John Bowen. It takes place in Ireland in the starts in the 40s, and follows the life of the other boy, that a man as he's going through, really coming into his own and discovering himself, and it's just beautifully written really great book.   Dan Seguin  40:40 Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?   Marren Smith  40:45 Well, you know, I lived on one for 11 years. And that boat was called Potential, but I thought about this permanent name of boat. Right now. I might name it unplugged, you know, because it would be the the ticket to just taking off and, and having some fun.   Dan Seguin  41:03 Who is someone that you admire?   Marren Smith  41:06 Yeah, I don't know, if you've heard of Christiana Figueres she was, for a number of years, the United Nations UNFCCC, which was the framework on climate change in the UN, she was the executive secretary there, she is just a fantastic climate leader, she is always positive. She continues to be optimistic in spite of all the challenges in this world, and so it got a smile on her face while she continues to do this work.   Dan Seguin  41:43 Next question, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Marren Smith  41:50 Maybe 15 years ago, I used to work up in what's called the Great Bear Rainforest off the coast of British Columbia, we're taking our group of people out to go see the place and experience it the beautiful ancient rainforest, an area the size of Ireland. And we were whalewatching, watching humpback whales, and they go around in a circle, and they blow their bubbles and make a net out of it. And then they all go down, and they come up in the middle. So there was four of them doing this and they come up in the middle, they make that net around a little school of fish, and they open their mouths and come up and and scoop up all the fish. And we were watching them do that. And then suddenly, I looked off this side of the boat, and there was all these little fish leaping out of the water. And suddenly, the whales picked up our boat and lifted it out of the water. And so it was just amazing. And there they were, then they just kind of sit around at the top, we could have just reached over and pat them. And then I was like, oh my god, I just I wonder if they're hurt. And as we sat there, they all sort of swam away. And they completely breached came out of the water from nose from tip to tail, you could see them all, they hadn't done this before, one after the other all for them. So you could see that they were just fine. And then they swam away.   Dan Seguin  43:24 Okay, moving on to the next one here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Marren Smith  43:32 Yeah, it's been this plethora of Zoom meeting staring at a screen hours after hour. And I'll tell you that I zipped out and got myself a stationary bike. And so during those zoom calls, everybody at first was laughing at me because I'd be kind of wiggling back and forth as I rode the bike slowly, just to keep myself going. And now all kinds of colleagues have now purchased stationary bikes as well.   Dan Seguin  44:09 Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?   Marren Smith  44:17 You know, a number of months ago, my family and I went to see The Last City with Sandra Bullock just like a ridiculous funny comedy and I was laughing out loud. And I was just like, you know, it was after the depths of COVID. It just felt great to laugh out loud at something that was just completely goofy and frivolous.   Dan Seguin  44:43 Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?   Marren Smith  44:49 It's the potential for the speed of change. You know, things are moving quickly. And it's that things can move quickly now Technology is ready for primetime. public understands that we need to take climate action. And governments and business are really seeing that economic strategy is going, you know, is is so linked to climate action. They see them as one in the same decarbonisation is what the economic future looks like.   Dan Seguin  45:25 Well, Marren, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, if our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how could they connect?   Marren Smith  45:37 Yeah, you can find us at cleanenergycanada.org. And you can also sign up on that for the Clean Energy Review, which is an email we send out every Monday morning that I hear from people in all walks of life from CEOs and ministers to receptionists and friends who don't even work in this. It's got the top 10 upbeat, optimistic solution based stories of the week, you can scan it in two minutes, or you can click on things and dive into these things in more details.   Dan Seguin  46:11 Again, Marren, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Marren Smith  46:16 I do. Thanks a lot for having me.   Dan Seguin  46:19 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Small-scale technologies like solar panels and on-site battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become more energy independent. In this episode, we talk with Dick Bakker, Director of the Ottawa Renewable Energy Co-operative (OREC), about his personal switch to solar power, OREC’s role as an advocate for renewable energy, and more. Related links   Ottawa Renewable Energy Co-operative: https://www.orec.ca/ Dick’s article: https://www.orec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Vistas-Jan-2024-2pages.pdf Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube   Follow along on Instagram   Stay in the know on Facebook   Keep up with the posts on X --- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. In today's era, there is a growing desire among residents to take charge of their energy consumption not only to manage costs, but also to actively generate their own power. Traditionally, electricity has been generated at large power plants and transmitted over extensive distances to homes and businesses, leaving consumers with little influence over the source of their electricity. However, advancements in small scale technologies such as solar panels and onsite battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become energy self-sufficient. In addition to these technologies, the integration of smart thermostats, vehicle to grid charging stations and heat pumps is further reshaping the dialogue around energy generation, conservation, and being active participants in an emission free future. Today, Canadians have the opportunity to take control of virtually every aspect of their energy consumption and interaction. The landscape of energy is evolving, putting the power back into the hands of individuals and communities alike. So here's today's big question. What role will innovative technologies and decentralized energy solutions play in shaping the future energy independence for individuals and communities? Joining us today is Dick Bakker, an Ottawa area homeowner that recently published an article about his experience installing a solar panel system on his home. Dick is also the director of an auto renewable energy cooperative, so brings a unique perspective on other small scale renewable projects his organization has been involved in. Dick, welcome to the show.   Dick Bakker  02:34 Thank you very much.   Dan Seguin  02:36 Now, you recently published an article about the process of installing solar panels on your home. What inspired you and your family to make the switch to solar power? And why did you decide to share your experience in this article,   Dick Bakker  02:52 It was a long process, I actually had to go back to 98 when the ice storm hit Eastern, Northeastern the US and Canada. At that time, I was working in the internet equipment business. And I watched the world stop and became fascinated with how it happened. And that caused a restart and an interest in energy that I had from the 70s during the oil crisis. And I found the electricity grid to be very similar to the telecom industry, then in oh three. So in 98, we were out of power here for seven days. People across the road had power, so we're okay, but we just didn't have power in our house. We just live with them. Then in Oh, three the trees in Ohio shut down North America again. And I couldn't believe that that could happen again. But at that time, Ontario was the last jurisdiction in North America to come back on stream fully. It took us almost four weeks for the whole province to come back. But Quebec was lit up okay. And they actually had bars on the hunt in the hall side looking at the lights going off in Ontario. But I asked myself why the heck is this. And I realized very quickly that it was because of our big nuclear plants. They're so big, and so rigid. The premier at the time couldn't get the citizens of Ontario to turn off their air conditioning units because of the heatwave we were in. And Quebec was unaffected. Well, why? And I learned it is the centralized nature of Ontario's power grid, and the lack of demand management that we have here. Because of that, anyway, I became fascinated with electricity regulations, and all of that. And that eventually led to me becoming part of the Ottawa renewable energy cooperative, where I learned through hard knocks the problems of the electricity system, the predatory protective regulations, and this new idea called distributed energy resources. Anyway, long and short, I finally realized that we needed to do something at home. And that came about eventually to us putting solar on the house when certain regulations changed. I wrote the article so that I could share my experiences of how the Ontario electricity system works, what we can do about it, and I wrote it for the local community newspaper, the VISTAs, I live in Alta Vista. And through my work at Oreck and my own interests in this house and making it more efficient and cheaper to run, I learned an awful lot and that information should be spread, I thought, okay, Dick,   Dan Seguin  05:24 In your article, you mentioned the challenges you and your neighbors face during the durational storm that hit Ottawa in 2022. And the tornado in 2018. How did these experiences influence your decision to invest in solar and other distributed energy resources specifically?   Dick Bakker  05:46 Well, specific? A lot. They were instrumental. So I've lived in this house for 30 years and Alta Vista, we've been out of power for longer than five days, four times. In the 98 ice storm, the 2003 trees in Ohio that fell over and shut down North America, 2018 Tornado, and the 2022 Derecho. And then there was also another big ice storm in the spring of 23. But we'll leave that aside, it didn't affect us too much. So after the 2022 Derecho, my neighbor and I were discussing what had happened, were both out for 10 days, and he was beside himself because he didn't have anywhere to go. They want to get off the grid completely. And he knew I was involved in the Ottawa, renewable energy cooperative, or Rec. And I told him, You can't go off grid because it's not worthwhile. It's not effective, you're getting a subsidized price of electricity, which didn't, he didn't like hearing that. But I said, you're just we're just not paying enough for our electricity. We're getting it so cheap, it doesn't make sense to put solar on your roof. Besides, we both had trees in our cell site. So that was then I explained to him the centralized nature of the grid. 60% of our power comes from three nuclear sites. Bruce Darlington and Pickering. Pickering being 14%. The pension funds like to invest in big centralized power plants, big shiny objects that the world can see. And the long lines that bring the power from way over there to our little corner is like a cash stream that the incumbents want to keep. They're not interested in distributed energy resources, or D are spread around. But that's where we should be going that time in 2022. Knowing what I knew of the regulations and the orientation of the provincial government, I couldn't see ever having the potential to put solar on your house. Sorry, I couldn't see the financial justification of putting solar on the house. And on top of that, the present government is subsidizing our electricity bills to the tune of 7 billion a year five and a half billion of that is going to general subsidies to the middle class and upper class not targeted to the poor. So at some point that's going to rise. The rating agencies will correct that by threatening to downgrade Ontario's credit rating but all that to say it's still subsidized, so it's not worth putting it on. Then in 2023, January, the Ontario government came out with some changes and started encouraging net metering and local generation.   Dan Seguin  08:28 Okay, now, did you also discuss the changing landscape of Ontario's electricity rules, specifically mentioning the Ontario Energy Boards directive in 2023? What changed that, in your opinion, helped to facilitate the adoption of solar power and what challenges still exist for homeowners today?   Dick Bakker  08:51 Thanks, Dan. That directive from the Ontario Energy Board and 23 was was a game changer for the province. I don't think they realize what potential they unleash them. So from 2018 When the Conservative government took power, they had a big grid only mentality. They wanted big power plants and long lines to deliver the power to the homes and the rules around net metering, which is the only way you can put solar on your house and stay connected to the grid. That's where you generate power, consume it yourself, and trade credits for your over summer for your summer overproduction for your winter consumption or purchases from the grid. So that pricing scheme was basically rigged against the homeowner because homeowners were forced to go to the tiered pricing scheme. So just on that situation, and up until 2023. Net metering wasn't very cost effective because of the pricing, but it could work. Technically, the grid acts as a battery so you're never out of power. So that rule kept me way from thinking of solar on my house. Also, I had trees to the south of the house. So the best place to put the solar panels wouldn't be productive. I don't want to cut the trees down, because that keeps my air conditioning costs low, and they're nice. But then in 23, the province changed the rules around net metering, and came up with an ultra low overnight rate. So the key thing about net metering, they said the local distribution companies would have to give the net metering customer the option to pick their rate class. So you go to a time of use rate if you wish. And then you get value for your time value of electricity. So if you're producing an high rate, you get the high rate in your credits. Okay, so that's good, then they came up with an ultra low overnight time of use rate, third rate class to encourage every user to charge at night, not during the evening dinnertime when everybody's turning on lights and eaters and all their devices. So they want to reduce consumption during the peak hour, and increase consumption at the low hour. And if you produce solar during the four to 9pm, period at 28 cents, that's what you pay, you get credits for 28 cents, that is much better economics for the homeowner, the end user and the solar producer. That's when I realized that my house was actually ideal because I've got a very low sloped roof. The South Side is full of trees, but the north side is clear. And the North side's going to produce more during the four to eight o'clock pm in the summertime at 28 cents. So one hour of that can offset 10 hours at the 2.8 cents for the low rate. So that was one thing. The other thing is I have an EV. We have heat pumps. We just installed a heat pump water heater, so I can time shift my consumption to the low overnight rate, I think it's pretty good. I still think the cost of electricity is going to rise more. So my return on investment is only going to improve because putting all of this in is an insurance policy against that rising cost of electricity. You also asked what are the continuing challenges? The challenges for solar? on the residential side are buildings and trees. How's the building built? Which way are the roofs pointing? Where are the trees? What kind of shading do they throw? But the good thing is that in the summertime, the sun is very high in Canada, so the sun will come straight down more or less. And in the wintertime when there's no snow on your roof. Or even if there's a little bit of snow on the roof. Solar production is marginally better because it's cold. So the physics is better. So there's still lots of opportunity for solar even in this cold northern climate. The challenges are of course buildings and trees to a certain point the supply chain there aren't enough installers, electricians to do all the work that should be done can be done hydro Ottawa, a staff just to get the installations done the upgrades for the grid. But hydro Ottawa needs Ottawa residents to spend this money on their own Diyar so that you can meet your new targets for the year. So I think people who do this on their own are doing it for themselves, but indirectly they're doing it for the betterment of the overall grid, driving down the cost of electricity. Solar does not drive up the cost of electricity when producing nuclear plants drives up the cost of electricity. Okay.   Dan Seguin  13:40 Could you maybe provide more details on the cost and capacity of your solar panel system? What were the economic aspects of your investment, including any government incentives or rebates that may have influenced your decision?   Dick Bakker  13:56 So in my specific installation, I have 37 panels in total. 24 of them are on the north slope and 13 panels on the south slope. So total DC kilowatt of 14.43. That's going through a nine kilowatt inverter. I have no panels on the south slope because there are three big trees there. If I had panels there, it would probably be a third smaller for the same generation. So over 12 months, I expect to generate about 10,246 kilowatt hours. That's 78% of 2020 two's consumption and my electricity consumption includes 90% of our driving because I have an Eevee and a plug in hybrid Evie 90% of our driving 100% of our cooling 40% of our heating a little more than 40% this year because it's a warm winter and 100% of our lights and appliances. So I've got a gas station on my roof and I've got a furnace on my roof effectively because of the ultra low overnight time of use rate. I am confident that with time shifting I can cover 100% of my electricity purchases, not my connection charges 100% of my electricity cost with something like 78% of my electricity kilowatts, because of the time shifting between ultra low and peak rate, the overall cost was $30,478 for the equipment, plus HST electricity upgrade to 200 amp service, some internal wiring changes, and I reached angled under the panels on the north and east, I didn't do the South because it doesn't quite need it effectively, I future proof my house for 30 plus years of electricity, I've given myself 30 years plus of electricity, price insurance and forced savings. And I predict that the credit rating agencies at some point will force the province to reduce the subsidies we're giving to the middle and the upper class and electricity costs. And that'll drive up the electricity rates a little bit, not massively, and I'll be protected from that. or whoever's living here because I'm getting old. So I think the house value of homes that have solar are going to hold their value better than a new kitchen cabinet or a new, new whatever that the new owner pulls out and replaces, you know, you're not going to be replacing solar on a roof if it's reducing your utility bills.   Dan Seguin  16:23 Okay, now our batteries, shifting your energy use away from daytime usage, or other distributed energy resources a consideration?   Dick Bakker  16:33 Well, that's a very good question, because the one thing I haven't done in the house yet is put a battery and a disconnect Island. And that's the next thing I'm going to look at during the summertime, I do these things one at a time to make sure they work and see how they operate. So the next thing will be a battery probably in the garage, if it's appropriate. And the not sure the proper technical term islanding device to allow me to operate separate from the grid. And if I ever buy another car, it'll be an Eevee with to a charging, so that I'll be able to charge my house and the battery over the course of the year, so the battery will be there for a disaster. But over the course of the year, I'll be able to draw power from the solar on the roof, and from the grid at the low rate stored and discharge it to the grid during the peak rate. So that makes my neighbor's grid a little more resilient. And in a crisis, I can be Island as opposed to the noisy gas generators that are sitting around my neighborhood.   Dan Seguin  17:37 Shifting gears a bit now as the director of the auto renewable energy cooperatives since its creation in 2009. Can you share how it works? And what are some of the projects that your coop has built?   Dick Bakker  17:54 Sure, certainly. So OREC is a for profit, renewable energy Co Op that enables residents of Ottawa to be restricted to Ontario by certain rules that I won't get into. So it allows residents of Ottawa and mostly Eastern Ontario but Ontario to benefit from distributed energy resources in their own region, we build our own renewable energy generation. Presently, solar and wind, energy conservation assets, commercial building, lighting installation, retrofit projects that keep the electrons jobs and profits local. So we have 22 solar systems in place now, most of them or the feed in tariff contracts. Three of them are net metering projects, one at the Museum of Science and Tech, two at the French Catholic High School Board, Mere Blue and Paul Desmarais. And then 18 other feed in tariff contracts where we have a contract to sell the power to the grid. At a net metering project. We sell the power to the building. Then we also have two wind projects down in southwestern Ontario and three energy retrofit projects. We had five but two of them have finished their contractor. So the solar projects are on housing coops, burns, schools, museums, factories, and two of them are I'd say medium sized ground mounts, 500 kilowatt ground mounts, the two wind projects. One is a 2.3 megawatt project at Tiverton, just outside of the Bruce nuclear plant and a little funny story I like to tell everyone is that the Bruce nuclear plant doesn't supply power to the neighborhood. All the electricity from Bruce nuclear goes to Toronto on the transmission lines because they connect it to the distribution grid and Temperton that blows all the light bulbs so they feed Toronto and then it trickles all the way back to Tim Burton. The wind project that we have outside of Tim Burton is a standalone turbine and it feeds the distribution grid. So should heaven forbid should Bruce nuclear go down? Some of the people will have electricity coming from our wind turbine. The people that are working at Bruce nuclear will have power at home, not because of the nuclear plant. The second wind turbine is an 800 kilowatt project in Zurich directly south of there. That's a wonderful area for wind. Most of the wind projects in that area are large projects owned by American pension funds, feeding Toronto, all of the power is going on the transmission lines. So getting back to Oh, Rick in general. So we have solar wind and lighting retrofits at the IRA center, condo, and housing coops. All of our projects are revenue generating with proven technologies and solid counterparties. So pretty comfortable with the security of those assets. The board is made up of pretty experienced people, engineers, lawyers, business development, accountants comms people. I'm a bit of a generalist. But I have worked in telecom and technical fields my whole life, not as an engineer, we have 980 members, 500 of them, about half of them have invested over $11 million in equity and debt in our project since we started. And we've paid dividends every year since 2013. When our first project came online, we had repaid to our members over 3.5 million in dividends, interest and capital repayment with very little outside debt, we'd rather pair members than banks, no offense banks, but we want to keep the money within the family within the community. Our main function is to act as an investment cooperative for our members. So we spend most of our time looking for projects to build and or buy, and then raise the community capital to build, operate, repeat, get more projects, raise more capital, pay out the dividends and capital. But we do have to spend an awful lot of money on advocacy work to change the regulations, or maintain whatever regulations are, to promote distributed energy resources of all types. But the second core function that we want to do more of is utilize the knowledge of our 1000 members and create them. It's happening already organically, but we want to have more regular information sessions between our members who are doing things like I just did. We have the largest concentration of any 1000 People in the Ottawa Valley in the province. I think of people who have D er installed in their homes. So we have a lot of end users, battery users, people with knowledge of heat pumps and stuff like that. So we are a group of friends with knowledge of the ER.   Dan Seguin  22:34 Okay now, Dick, when did things really take off with the co-op? And are members seeing dividends?   Dick Bakker  22:42 Well, that's a good question. Because the first offering that we raised was in 2012. And we didn't know how it was going to go, it actually went better than we expected, our minimum requirement was to raise half a million dollars. And in those nine weeks that we had, we raised $970,000, and more cash than we actually needed for what we had to do. And ever since then, we've we're now on our 10th Raise, each raise has gone better than expected. We've always raised more cash than we had projects at that time. So for a period there, we were building up too much cash and didn't have enough projects for them. So projects come more harder than the money or the members, the membership has grown very well. And the equity in the cooperative has been very good. And I'm also proud to say that we've paid dividends every year, since 2013. In the last couple of years, it's been 4%. We'd like it to be higher, but we've had to build everything from scratch without any outside cash. We've just started our latest raise, it's going to close on August 28, I believe. And we're looking for new members with new equity, and that equity can be RRSP or TFSA. It's an investment in the portfolio of 27 existing projects, and the new projects that we're going to be building in the coming year.   Dan Seguin  24:11 Now, let's talk about the changing relationship between electricity consumers and producers. How do you see this evolving in the coming years? And what role do you think individuals and communities will play in the broader energy transition?   Dick Bakker  24:32 This is going to be the biggest change in our society in the coming years. I think we're going to move from being ratepayers with very little agency beyond paying our bills and turning off lights to prosumers or producer consumers who have the ability to produce electricity for conservation, which is what I'm doing or for profit and or for profit when the regulations in Ontario Are you allow hydro Ottawa to buy excess power from homeowners? Right now you can't. So we'll be able to conserve and profit from our assets on our roof. And we'll also be able to actively manage our consumption, again for conservation and profit. So right now we're able to reduce our demand and shift our demand from peak load to low load. But in the future, I'm pretty sure that Ontario will follow California and New York and allow for aggressive demand response programs. And what we'd like to do at some point in the future, as OREC is allow our members to pool their batteries and solar panels and air conditioners, so that we can turn down consumption as the grid gets choked or or constrained. So we just saw what happened in Alberta, they had no demand management program, they turned down some gas plants for renovation in the peak of winter, and then they got hit with a big demand. During a cold period. The only way they got out of their problem was begging their customers to turn down their home heating systems. The citizens responded, but the downtown office towers left their lights on all night. That's absurd. So going forward, I think that the LDCs will be paying people to turn down their demand, because we need the grid to be balanced. We don't need excess generation or excess demand or under demand, we need everything balanced. So a megawatt is as good as a megawatt.   Dan Seguin  26:52 Okay, thank you for that, in your opinion now. What is the city or province doing well, and what improvements need to be made? Now you gotta behave?   Dick Bakker  27:04 I'll try to behave. How long do we have? I don't want to rant. But it's hard not to. On the city site. If there's a climate emergency act like there is one, people should not be buying coffee from an idling car. Housing is energy, stopping natural gas expansion. The Better Homes program is a wonderful program of the city. Because it addresses the upfront costs of retrofitting and DTR and solar and all those things. It ties that cost to a 20 year loan fixed to the House tax bill, not to the person. I'm 68. I may not be in this house for 10 years, I tend to be here longer, but my intention and reality may be different. So we need to have the cost of long term assets spread over years. The Better Homes program says that the city should be encouraging solar and small wind for resilience purposes. Every large group should have solar and there should be wind turbines scattered throughout Eastern Ontario, not just in rural areas in batches of 50. There should be a couple of wind turbines in urban Ottawa with the proper setbacks. That's the city in the province. Every month Ontario's paying out $1.3 billion in gasoline and diesel costs. There's lots of money for the energy transition. You just have to shift it around. Let the nuclear plants run their course, don't shut them down early, but don't pour money down a sinkhole. We just announced today Pickering expansion, well Pickering retrofit, it's the oldest nuclear plant in North America. The province is in a pickle because they know the nukes will be late. The small modular reactors aren't small modular. They are big reactors, they can only go on the transmission lines. That demand is all over the province at the end of the distribution lines where we live and work and EVs and heat pumps are so just let the nuclear plants slow down or wear out. The Donsky Report to the Independent Electricity systems operator said the lowest cost of new energy in the provinces D er of all types. It's just regulations that are stopping it and it makes the province more resilient. So the province can have every city have a similar program to Otto as the Better Homes program. Secondly, remove the Ontario electricity rebate that's putting $5.5 million dollars of taxpayer money into the pockets of people who leave their lights on and put that money instead in the distribution lines allow every kind of virtual net metering in the province especially community solar gardens so that citizens could own the solar on a swimming pool hockey rink. Any facility that is used for a disaster recovery facility should be generating power day to day and then have the ability to island in a crisis and resilience See should be the first order of the electricity grid, proper costs but resiliency and localized and generally liberalize the rules around generation and distribution. Okay,   Dan Seguin  30:10 Does the co-op or its members have an objective to promote or advocate for renewable energy and distributed energy resources in the community or with local governments? Yes,   Dick Bakker  30:23 In every way, as a co op, and with other coops for community scale projects, 100 kilowatt to one or two megawatt is the size of projects that is natural for us. That's the kind of thing that citizens are going to be interested in and seeing and owning, but we are going to work in the bigger projects on the transmission side, but we're advocating for that all the time, spend a lot more time helping our members to act as individuals with information and examples, the whole idea of friends with knowledge to get them to put in their own home systems. So yes, we spend way too much time advocating on behalf of the ER.   Dan Seguin  31:03 Okay, now, are you seeing your co-op's focus areas reflected in government policy, either municipally or provincially? How do you ensure your voices are heard?   Dick Bakker  31:17 We're starting to see a focus on D er, but I'm not yet seeing action, hard, hard action on the ER except for a few exceptions. Hydro Ottawa with the IESO is right now focused on solar DERs as a conservation measure, there's a bunch of regulations around it. I won't get into that right now. So that's good. And the dusky report and the ultra low time of use rate, those are all very good things. But today, they've just announced the massive expenditure on Pickering, which locks us further into the centralized focus of the province. The orientation of all electricity grids is to build big things far away that will break at some point. We're here in Ottawa, and we see all these federal buildings, there's only a few of them that have sold on them. The federal government doesn't do a good job of buying from small organizations like us. So we've had lots of discussions with the feds, but they want to do massive things that the reporters can write about. We're advocating as ourselves and with other coops nationally and provincially in every province, because that's where electricity and Co Op law resides. And we have formed a national association called the Community Energy cooperatives Canada, which is based in Saskatoon right now and has 25 coops from across the country. The fastest growing area of renewable energy coops in Canada is Alberta because they have the most liberalized power grid. So that'll be our national voice. But it'll be a voice at the federal and more importantly, at the provincial level, because that's where electricity lives. We work a lot with the European res Co Op, who have been very successful in Europe to get the EU to pass a directive that says every citizen of the EU has the right to own, operate, store, share, and save their own renewable electricity. So if we get the federal government to encourage that, all they can do is bribe, encourage and embarrass the provinces. If we could get the federal government to pass a directive like that. That's EU directive 2018 -201. If anybody's interested, we get that kind of directive from the federal government. That'll put pressure and embarrassment on the provinces to loosen up their grids. Alberta and Nova Scotia have moved the furthest along in this area, Ontario and Quebec and Manitoba and Saskatchewan are the big laggards but we have to move that way and oh wreck with our friends in the other coops can push that. We're all voters. We're all voting with our money and our ballots, and the last thing, banks will notice the difference.   Dan Seguin  34:03 Lastly, Dick, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions.Are you ready?   Dick Bakker  34:12 Yes, sir.   Dan Seguin  34:13 Okay, what are you reading right now?   Dick Bakker  34:16 Well, two books, one is called treeing energy by Bill Nussey. It's all about the wonderful economics of Home DER technologies. And the other is by my favorite author Guy Vanderhaeghe, August Into Winter. And not a book but fascinating about Saskatchewan and rural Saskatchewan and Manitoba crime scene set in 39. With the Spanish Civil War in the coming world war two is the backdrop. It's great.   Dan Seguin  34:44 What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?   Dick Bakker  34:47 There ain't no easy road. Those are the words of a song I love called Jericho by Fred Eagle Smith. My wife gave me a paddle with this phrase on it a few years ago as a birthday present.   Dan Seguin  34:59 Next, who is someone that you admire?   Dick Bakker  35:01 Peggy my, my wife, mother of my children, business partner, best friend and a no BS problem solver.   Dan Seguin  35:09 Okay? What was the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed   Dick Bakker  35:15 Birth of a child who grows into an adult who has a child. Now,   Dan Seguin  35:19 Now, as a result of the pandemic? Many of us are guilty of watching a little too much TV or movies. What is your favorite movie or show? What are you watching right now?   Dick Bakker  35:31 I'd have to say the Danish movie Borgan. It's a Danish TV series on politics and the trade offs and the personalities that shows the human side of difficult decision making. It's great.   Dan Seguin  35:46 Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?   Dick Bakker  35:51 Well, the electricity industry has got the possibility to democratize energy to revitalize communities and especially rural communities. So with renewables and DDR and cooperatives, we can keep the electrons' jobs and profits local. Okay,   Dan Seguin  36:10 Dick, our listeners, if they want to learn more about you, how do they connect?   Dick Bakker  36:15 Probably the best way is to go online and check. www.orec.ca or orec website.   Dan Seguin  36:24 This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Dick Bakker  36:33 I did. Thank you very much, Dan. It's wonderful.   Dan Seguin  36:37 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

We’ve spoken with many experts about electric vehicles (EVs) in Canada, covering everything from adoption trends to announcements, projects, and policies. This episode curates some of the most informative takeaways from these discussions. Envision Canada’s EV future with Daniel Breton of Electric Mobility Canada, Emma Jarratt of Electric Autonomy Canada, Cara Clairman of Plug’nDrive, and Loren McDonald of EVAdoption. Related links   Daniel Breton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-breton-b8a3b1a4/ Electric Mobility Canada: http://https://emc-mec.ca Emma Jarratt on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-jarratt-ba552727/ Electric Autonomy Canada: https://electricautonomy.ca/ Cara Clairman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-clairman-84967318/ Plug’nDrive: http://www.plugndrive.ca Loren McDonald on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorenmcdonald/ EVAdoption: http://www.https://evadoption.com Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod ---------------- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In today's podcast episode will focus on some of the most impactful conversations we had about electric vehicles EVs and Canada's mandate to make all light duty vehicles and passenger truck sales 100% zero emission by 2035. Interim electric vehicle targets include 20% of all vehicle sales by 2026 and 60% by 2030. If the stats are any indication, Canadians are getting on board according to s&p global, the share of the new registration of light duty zero emission vehicles in Canada in the third quarter of 2023 reached 13.3%, or one in eight new vehicles. This is up by 40% from the third quarter in 2022. There is no doubt that the federal government believes that zero emission vehicles are part of the solution to a stronger economy, cleaner air and healthier environment and good jobs. To facilitate this. We've all read about the factory announcements in 2023 that will develop a homegrown electric vehicle supply chain. There's Volkswagens 20 billion Ontario battery factory for turning its Oakville auto assembly plant into a 1.8 billion EV industrial park. There's the auto supplier Magna investing half a billion dollars into the EV supply chain right here in Ontario and Sweden's Northolt. Building a multimillion-dollar EV battery plant in Quebec. In today's episode, we're going to revisit some of the EV experts we've talked to on the show over the last couple of years and pull out the best nuggets of wisdom to share with you today. Our first highlight is with Daniel Breton from Electric Mobility Canada about what has spurred EV adoptions and the expected overall benefits to Canadians. What's been the most significant event innovation or policy that you think has changed the future trajectory for mass EV adoption for the better?   Daniel Breton  02:55 Well, I think there's not one thing in particular, you know, that has made it possible, I would say that's a growing, or it's a number of things. So obviously, battery technology has evolved quickly, over the past 1015-20 years. Just to give you an example, between 2008 to 2020. Volume density of the battery has grown eight-fold. So, when you look at batteries today you can have a lot more capacity. And a battery now than you had five years ago, 10 years ago, and it's going to keep growing as time goes by a lot of people seem to think that if you have let's say, a 60-kilowatt hour battery, it's going to be four times the size than a 15-kilowatt hour battery from let's say 2010. Actually, it's not the case at all. It's just that it has more capacity, and smaller volume per kilowatt hour, meaning that actually weight has not increased as fast as capacity. So, to me, that's very important. The other thing is that infrastructure, infrastructure deployment and infrastructure evolution has made a big difference. Just to give you an example. 10 years ago, the average electric car had 120 kilometers of range. Now it's 450. So, in 10 years, it's quadrupled. At the same time, 10 years ago, if you wanted to charge your electric car, there were hardly any fast chargers on the road. So, for example, when I was working in Montreal that I had to go to the National Assembly, I could not buy an electric car, I had to buy a plug-in hybrid electric car, because there was no fast charger but between Montreal and Quebec, that's 10 years ago. Now, if you go five years ago, a fast charger had a 50-kilowatt charger So that meant that we went from charging 120 kilometers of range in about four or five hours to charging 120 kilometers of range in about half an hour. And now with new fast chargers, you know, you know, going from 50 kilowatt to 150-kilowatt, 250 kilowatt and even 350 kilowatts, you can charge 120 kilometers of range in 10 minutes. So, things have accelerated regarding the technology of infrastructures as well. Education is making a big difference because more and more people are interested in EVs. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done. I'm often surprised to hear the same questions I was being asked 5-10-15-20 years ago regarding battery life, for instance. But I still do get those questions on social media and even sometimes on regular media.   Dan Seguin  06:03 I've got a follow up question here for you. What are some of the overall benefits as a nation when we reach 100% EV passenger sales by 2030, and all other vehicles by 2040?   Daniel Breton  06:18 Well, I would say that the first benefit is lower emissions is going to make a hell of a difference. Because you know, a lot of people say that GHG emissions from transportation represent 24% of Canada's total GHG emissions. But that's only downstream emissions. When you add upstream emissions, it's 30%, meaning that transportation is the number one source of GHG emissions in Canada. But that's huge emissions, so lowering them by I would say 50 to 80%, because you have to keep in mind that you have GHG emissions from electricity production, although it's getting much better. I mean, the last coal plant is going to close next year in Alberta. And, Nova Scotia intends to go. I think it's 80% renewable by 2030. So as time goes by, electric vehicles become cleaner and cleaner because the grid is becoming clearer and cleaner. So that's one thing. But the other thing, which is super important, and people seem to forget, is that according to Health Canada, they released a report on the impact of air pollution last year, the economic cost of air pollution is estimated at $120 billion, not millions, billions 100 $20 billion from air pollution, and that's 15,300 premature deaths, which is eight times the death toll of car accidents. So,­­ if we bring more electric vehicles on the road, it's going to significantly lower air pollution, whether it's from light duty vehicles, or medium or heavy duty vehicles. So it's going to save billions of dollars to Canadians, help our healthcare system and save 1000s of lives. I mean, this is not insignificant. This is very important. And this is something I think that needs to be said. And last but not least jobs. I've been talking about this, believe it or not, I've been coming to the House of Commons because from where I am, I can see the House of Commons right here because I'm in debt note this morning. I started to talk about the EV industry about 15 or 16 years ago to the federal government saying that we need to transition our automotive sector from gas to electric because that's where the industry is going. So, there was really not much of any interest for years. But now the federal government has really caught on, I have to salute Minister Chabang for his leadership on this particular issue to make sure to attract EV assembly, battery assembly, battery manufacturing, critical minerals strategy. So, we are seeing a real shift. I mean, you have to keep in mind that between 2020 and 2020 light duty vehicle production in Canada has been going down and down and down time and time again. We went from being the fourth biggest manufacturer in the world to not even be at the top 10 in 2020. Now because the federal government, the Ontario government, the Quebec government and other Canadian governments are investing more and more on the EV supply chain in the EV industry. We are seeing a revival of the automotive sector in Ontario. And to me this is significant. And if we hadn't done this, there will not be an automotive sector by 2030 or 22. 35 So this is huge.   Dan Seguin  10:02 On this topic of investments. I had the pleasure of speaking with Emma Jarrett, the Executive Editor of Electric Autonomy Canada. She's extensively covered Canada's grown EV manufacturing, infrastructure and battery sectors. Here's what Emma had to say on the topic. There's been a lot of news and announcements made recently. Can you talk about what stands out for you as the most notable electric vehicle projects or initiatives currently underway in Canada that you're excited about? And maybe why?   Emma Jarrett  10:37 Sure. So, I think everyone stops and takes an extra pause, when you hear there's a factory worth billions and billions of dollars going in. And that's, you know, maybe the third or fourth announcement of that type you've heard in a few months, it's really quite remarkable. The industry that's been attracted by the new investments that are coming into Canada, it's almost unprecedented. So, to see that play out, in real time to get to cover it, you know, it's a privilege. It's very interesting for me, I learn a lot every single day. And I think that, you know, the bird's eye view of the situation is that this is a real moment. And in our history, we're building a supply chain in this country that we've never had before. And it's going to be very interesting when we're looking back on it to see what kind of a fork in the road it represents for Canada that we seize this opportunity. What I'm most excited about with the announcements is the supply chain as a whole and decarbonizing that. So, it's great that we have factories that make batteries. But it would be better if they were all powered by non-emitting electricity. And it would be fantastic if the trucks that brought the refined minerals to those factories to go into the batteries were zero emission trucks, and the mining vehicles that pulled the minerals out of the ground. Were all electric. That to me is the big piece of this, you know, the whole supply chain needs to be decarbonized.   Dan Seguin  12:06 Okay, Emma, at the 2023 Federal Budget announced billions of tax credits and financing to attract investments in manufacturing, energy and tech sectors. Can you unpack some of the highlights that stood out for you in the budget as it relates to electric mobility or maybe clean energy?   Emma Jarrett  12:26 Sure. So, the big question with this year's budget was, how is it going to respond to the United States inflation Reduction Act, which was, you know, a $369 billion omnibus bill? And, you know, is it is going to squash Canada flat, we just don't have that kind of economic power at that scale. So, when the budget came out this year, I think everyone was very surprised and tentatively impressed if, if it rolls out the way some of the politicians are saying it will, that for the EV industry, and the clean tech, you know, you can, we can go toe to toe with the US using $55 billion, which is, you know, less than a quarter than what the US is, is spending. So that was just interesting. And I don't know enough about economic gymnastics to be able to say one way or the other if this is going to be a success, but it's an interesting strategy. And I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Aside from the IRA maneuvers, I was really pleased to see a new tax credit come up for decarbonization of Canada's grids $25.7 billion in tax credits to move towards sustainable, renewable, in most cases, sources of energy. And as an extension of that also smart peak management, you know, with battery storage and better load prediction and understanding. I think that's really important.   Dan Seguin  14:00 Now your coverage and knowledge of the electric mobility industry is extensive. What are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 targets?   Emma Jarrett  14:14 We have a very long way to go. I don't think we can pretend otherwise. The steps that are being taken are encouraging. But this is a really, really big shift to turn. I think the targets are possible to meet. I don't think they were unreasonable or pie in the sky. I really do think that it is achievable whether or not it happens who can say, I hope so. And I think that whenever I hear somebody saying, you know, being pushed too fast, or they're naysaying the targets, I go, okay, fair, but can you tell me what you think the alternative is to not meeting them? We're looking at a pretty stark future environmentally if action is not taken, and I am was of the opinion that some action is better than sitting there and doing nothing.   Dan Seguin  15:03 I couldn't agree more with Emma. Okay, moving on. In this next clip, I speak to Cara Clairman, President and CEO of Plug'n'Drive, who shared her perspective on the barriers that still exist to consumers, choosing EVs and the role municipalities play in moving this needle. Here's what Cara had to say when I asked what the main barriers are to EV ownership.   Cara Clairman  15:36 Okay, well, there's lots of barriers still remaining, although we're making lots of good progress. We did a survey about four years ago. And I think the results probably would hold true today as well, asking people about what was preventing them from choosing an electric vehicle. And actually, the number one barrier was price, which surprised us. We expected people to say range or lack of public infrastructure or something like that. But three to one, they actually said, they thought EVs were too expensive. And so, we know that the upfront sticker price is a problem for people, it is still a bit more expensive than the equivalent gas car. What people don't really know is that the total cost of ownership of an EV, even at today's prices is less. But it's always a challenge to help people understand you're going to pay more now and save later. And we have to help people see the advantage of doing that. So, I would say you know, cost and then also education because you have to help people understand that total cost of ownership over time. And actually, to help consumers on that specific point, we've, we've put a really great new tool on our website called 'Find your EV match', which really helps you see the total cost of ownership for electric vehicles income, and you can even compare an EV to your existing gas car that you currently drive and see your monthly savings. And so, this is a really, really important point. I would also say, of course, you know, we do need more infrastructure, and there still is some range hesitancy concern, but I really believe that the range issue is going away as an issue as the battery technology improves. And of course, as public infrastructure improves,   Dan Seguin  17:29 It would seem that municipalities across Canada have a large part to play to support the government's mandate, and to make charging stations more accessible. In your experience. Has this been the case? What's your view on the role municipalities play in the electrification of transit?   Cara Clairman  17:46 Yeah, municipalities do have an important role to play and I think they are starting to recognize it more and more. So, for example, one role that municipalities are playing and it's proving really important is in terms of standards for multi-unit buildings. So for example, a municipality can require a certain green standard for condos or multi-unit buildings being built in their in their territory and that will ensure that the you know roughing is there for the plugs in future and that new buildings will get built with you know, with the ability or sort of EV ready to help their citizens because let's face it, especially in the Greater Toronto Area, a lot of people live in multi-unit and we need to make it possible for these people to plug in there's other roles they can play for example, we're seeing a lot of municipalities set up you know their own EV policies for their you know, for public parking, for example, street parking for for different, making certain municipal lots available for charging. There's lots of ways that municipalities can help and there are, you know, through the associations, there's sharing I know of EV policies across municipalities that don't have to reinvent the wheel.   Dan Seguin  19:10 No need to reinvent the wheel. I love this good pun. Now. Last, but certainly not least, is my interview with the EV evangelist himself, Loren McDonnell of EV Adoption. Loren has spent decades analyzing trends in EVs and charging technology. He joined me on the show to share his thoughts and had some surprising and insightful things to say. What has been the most important or significant recent event in your opinion, that will positively change the future for electric vehicles?   Loren McDonald  19:50 I would say there's sort of two things that are kind of closely connected. One is the Ford F 150 Lightning, as you as you both probably know, you know, and pickups are pretty popular and candidate as well. But you know, the F 150, the regular F 150 internal combustion engine has been the top selling vehicle, not just pickup, but the top selling vehicle of any type in America, and actually the world for 40 straight years. And so the fact that this sort of mainstream popular vehicle, a pickup truck is actually and it's being delivered. Now the first deliveries are starting, like this week of the electric version is, I've called it this the game changer, the single most important EV in history, right? And you could make arguments for lots of different ones for different reasons, right. But I think, to go mainstream, this signals to those people in the Midwest as an example. Oh, I guess this isn't just for wealthy, you know, granola eating people in California. This is a work truck, this is, you know, this is actually acceptable. And the second part of it, obviously, which you know, we'll talk a bit about more later, I'm sure your the bi directional charging capability is sort of an eye opener. And then the last thing I would say is just sort of gas prices, right. And so, gas prices, again, which I know we'll talk about some more, may make people more aware of alternatives to the internal combustion engine. And so EVs are kind of having their moment right now, because of that.   Dan Seguin  21:41 Okay. Now, time to leave it all on the floor. What is something you want the average combustion engine car owner to know about EVs, that maybe they don't already know, Loren gloves off, go for it.   Loren McDonald  21:59 Really, I think pretty, pretty simple that charging your electric vehicle is more like having to charge a smartphone than how you feel your gas car. Right. And just to expand briefly on that is, you know, get most consumers there, their perception is that refueling and recharging an EV is the same as going to a centralized gas station and stuff. And it's not till you own one, and experience it and drive it a lot that you realize, no, it's actually more like a smartphone where you know, you, you know, put it in your bed stand and plug it in, you wake up in the morning, and it's recharged or whatever. And that's the same thing with your EV. Assuming you have access to home charging, right? Go into the garage plugin, wake up and it's charged. And, you know, the, the, the nuance to that is, is that and I've got this amazing chart that I that I use in presentations that shows like a fuel gauge, for you know, like most consumers, when they drive a gas car, what do they do, they drive the car down to empty quarter of a tank, below empty, whatever they're comfortable with. And then they pull into a gas station and fill it up to fall. And you know, this, Dan, that's not how you refuel an electric vehicle, you replenish what you use, right? So, if you drive 30 miles today, you plug in and you replenish that third, and maybe actually even don't, maybe you wait a couple of days, right? You drive it down, and then you do it right, it sort of depends on your comfort zone. The only time through refueling experience for an EV is analogous to a gas car is when you go on those road trips, right? And those either so you know, weekend one or a long road trip, and then you do have to do that centralized thing. But otherwise, I think this is the single biggest educational hurdle that we have because it's not something you can explain to people. They actually have to like the experience to then the light bulb goes, Oh, yeah, this is like my smartphone.   Dan Seguin  24:12 And there you have it. Wise words from our guest, Loren McDonnell, the EV evangelists. Sometimes changing our mindset can help make you see things in a new light. And that's our show for today. If you like what you heard, feel free to revisit the full episodes featuring our renowned EV experts. We'll include links in the show notes so you can find these episodes and guests you're most interested in. And of course, don't forget to subscribe. Again. Thank you for joining me today as this sector and topic continues to evolve and grow. I for one, as a longtime EV owner, I am excited to see what the near future holds for Canada and for consumers. Until next time, thank you for listening to thinkenergy podcast. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Waterpower is Canada’s most abundant renewable resource, providing 60 per cent of our electricity. But here’s the big question: as Canada looks to an emissions-free future, how can waterpower, one of the oldest power sources on the planet, help us get there? And what do we need to consider? To learn more about our hydroelectric future, we sat down with Gilbert Bennett, President and CEO of WaterPower Canada. Tune in.   Related links   Gilbert Bennett on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gilbert-bennett-86166529/ WaterPower Canada: https://waterpowercanada.ca/  Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Follow along on Instagram   Stay in the know on Facebook   Keep up with the posts on X (Formerly Twitter) --- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So, join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, Happy New Year and welcome back. Here's a fun fact. Canada's electricity sector is one of the cleanest in the world when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions. Now today, we're going to focus on one of the oldest power sources on the planet. Hydropower generates power when flowing water spins a wheel or turbine. It was used by farmers as far back as ancient Greece for mechanical tasks like grinding grain. Canada's oldest hydroelectric generating station that still is in operation today was commissioned right here in Canada's nation's capital in 1891. Generating Station Number 2 is located on Victoria Island in the heart of downtown Ottawa is a stone's throw away from Parliament Hill. It's been providing clean, renewable electricity for more than 130 years. While hydroelectricity first powered our great city and country, it was fossil fuels that quickly became the dominant energy source during the Industrial Age of the 20th century, until nuclear power arrived on the scene in the early 1960s. Now, because Canada is a water rich country, it's not surprising that our water power is our most abundant renewable resource, providing 60% of our country's total electricity. That means six out of every 10 homes in Canada are powered by water. This makes Canada the third largest generator of hydroelectricity in the world, after China and Brazil. To reduce Canada's emissions of greenhouse gasses that cause climate change, we must continue to increase the amount of zero emissions electricity we produce and strategically reduce our reliance on fossil fuels in other sectors. So here is today's big question. Can one of the world's oldest renewable power sources play a major role in Canada's Net Zero future? So, joining us today on the podcast is Gilbert Bennett. He is the president and CEO of WaterPower Canada, founded in 1998. WaterPower Canada is the national nonprofit trade association dedicated to representing the water power industry. Gilbert, welcome to the show.   Gilbert Bennett  03:21 Good morning, Daniel. Great to be here.   Dan Seguin  03:23 Now, you've joined WaterPower Canada at a very interesting time where there's a lot of national and international conversations about developments in hydroelectricity, as countries strive to meet their net zero targets. What is your vision on how water power Canada can participate in Canada's energy transformation and decarbonization?   Gilbert Bennett  03:49 So, we at WaterPower Canada represent the Canadian hydro electric industry, so the owners and operators were the vast majority of the Canadian hydropower fleet. So all the major utilities are members of the association. And we also have our industry partners that design manufacturing constructs for the industry. So given the hydropower provided, over 60% of Canada's electricity supply is going to be the backbone of the electricity industry for decades to come. Our role is to make sure that industry, governments, and the federal government, in particular, understand the important role that we play in the electricity system, and why hydropower is a key advantage of building a renewable future for Canada. So we're going to be aware that we're the dominant renewable supply for the Canadian electricity system. We have important value that's provided in terms of reliability. And I guess the ability to integrate other renewables in the system. So, we're going to be here for decades. We're going to be playing a major role in that transformation and the decarbonization of our economy.   Dan Seguin  04:57 Now, what's the value proposition that hydroelectric power brings to a clean, affordable and NetZero future?   05:07 Right. So, most importantly, we have key attributes. And I sort of touched on that in our last question there, we're firm and reliable. So, think about hydropower, just firm generation, there's water in the reservoir, we're going to be producing power at the power plant. It's not a question of is the wind blowing, is the sun shining? It's long term, high capacity, firm generation. And when I think about high-capacity storage for hydropower, in larger, the larger hydro systems, we're talking about 1000s of megawatts of power generation, delivered for months on end with large reservoir storage. So that's an important attribute that contributes to the reliability of our Canadian electricity system. And secondly, is dispatchable. So, we can adjust output of the plant as necessary to meet needs as they change your day to day order in order to balance out the deliveries from other renewables. So, in the absence of a fossil fuel fleet, hydropower with those capabilities is really important for us to maintain reliability and deliveries on our electricity system.   Dan Seguin  06:18 Gilbert, some people still believe that investments in renewable energy translate to higher electricity costs. But I read on your website that provinces with the highest hydropower installed capacity have the lowest electricity costs, perhaps you can break down why that is and what you think the public should know about hydropower that they may not already know.   Gilbert Bennett  06:48 So, if we look at the provinces of Canada with the highest installed base hydropower, they have facilities that were built with large scale capacity and large-scale storage, and they were built in the 60s and 70s. And they still operate reliably today. So, we look back to sort of the major construction that happened in the Canadian hydropower sector. Several decades ago, those long-term reliable assets are now producing really low cost energy, a lot of financing has been addressed from those facilities, and they have low operating costs, the cost of maintaining those facilities is, is a lot lower than the cost of building new ones today. So those those legacy assets are really important contributors to the low rates, we see in the, what I'll call the hydro dependent jurisdictions.   Dan Seguin  07:37 Very insightful. Thanks, Gilbert. Now, I know water power, Canada has commissioned some research projects. Can you maybe talk about some of those, and what makes them important to your sector and your goals?   Gilbert Bennett  07:53 So those studies, and there were four of them that were completed through last year with important financial support from Natural Resources Canada, and fortunately, they address some important topics to discuss hydropower in general. So, the first one deals with this question that we just talked about, what's the role that hydropower facilities play in ensuring reliable service for customers. So now we're getting into some technical points, inertia load, following regulation, frequency and voltage control. So those are things that customers don't think about and don't have to worry about, because they're really important questions or system operators, the people who manage and operate electricity grids. So, it's important for policymakers who are drafting the rules through the electricity sector to understand that these capabilities are essential to delivering reliable service. And in the absence of fossil generation, delivering those capabilities to a large extent is going to fall to the hydro fleet. It's important to understand the services that are uniquely provided by hydro facilities, some of the variable renewables don't have these capabilities. And the services that are provided by the hydro fleet are going to be much more important in the future as we retire the fossil fuel fleet across Canada. So that's, that's the first one. The second study looked at the potential for pumped storage hydro in Canada. And that's a topic that we haven't talked about a lot. It's a mature technology that's used in many places in the world. But with our conventional hydropower fleet here in Canada, we haven't had to worry about too much, but it is becoming an issue as a way to store energy from variable renewables and make it available when needed factor projects under consideration in Ontario. Today, there are two major projects in Ontario, one led by OPG and Northland power, and the TC energy's project in Georgian Bay is another one that probably would be familiar to listeners in Ontario for sure. There are also projects in Alberta. They're looking at that technology. So potential for pump storage as a large-scale storage opportunity to firm up variable renewables. It's an important topic elsewhere in the world. And it's one that we thought would be useful to highlight attention here in Canada. Third study looks at the potential for updating our existing facilities to increase the output of those facilities. So, we've identified 1000s of megawatts of potential that can be realized by replacing the existing turbines and generators and existing plants. So, the point here is that we're using existing dams, reservoirs and structures, while updating the technology inside the plant. So that's a cost-effective way to increase the efficiency of the plant or to increase capacity on the grid. And then finally, the last report looks at the cost of energy from previous generation sources. And we introduced the point here that variable renewables are inexpensive energy sources, but there are additional costs that will be incurred in the electricity systems making them dispatchable and available. And those are, those are features that are built into hydro generation. So, we want to raise the point here that the grid services that I talked about a second ago, need to be factored in when we're comparing various generation sources. So these points are really important for policymakers to understand, well, they're drafting the rules for the industry, and ultimately, for the services that our customers are gonna be relying on. Lots and lots of detail there. And if anybody's interested in taking a look at those reports, are all posted on our website at waterpowercanada.ca.   Dan Seguin  11:28 Okay, I really like this next question here. What are some projects and innovations that you're seeing from your members that you feel may usher in a new era for waterpower?   Gilbert Bennett  11:42 I think we look back at our aspirational goal in Canada to be net zero by 2050. So, talk about that on a fairly regular basis. Various experts have said that we'll need to double our electricity supply to achieve that goal. So just think about that for a second 25 or 30 years, we're going to rebuild the industry that's taken 125 years to build the infrastructure Canada that we have today. So, you know, that's a daunting challenge. And I think it'd be the first sign of the scale of that effort is probably from Hydro Quebec, where they've indicated that they plan to spend somewhere between 155 and $185 billion dollars on their electricity system between now and 2035, in order to set the stage and Quebec to be net zero by 2050. That level of investment, that scale of development of their electricity system, I think is a huge one. And it's one that if we're going to achieve our or aspirational goal is going to be replicated in multiple jurisdictions when we look at significant investments required to set the stage to electrify our economy. So that in itself is a, you know, is a hugely important error for I see the electricity sector in general, feel comfortable saying that water power is going to be an important piece of that.   Dan Seguin  13:07 Now, if memory serves me right, your organization released a collection of success stories of partnerships between utilities, energy companies, indigenous businesses, and organizations affiliated with First Nations. Gilbert, what can you tell us about the path forward? And its intersection is clean energy and reconciliation?   Gilbert Bennett  13:34 Right. So that report, branding indigenous businesses is also on our website. And it's a collection of case studies from members from our member companies that provide concrete examples of how WaterPower Canada member companies are working with indigenous businesses, First Nations, both as partners and owners and developers of projects. So, I think in the context of reconciliation, it should be fairly clear that projects and activities that happen on traditional land should benefit people who you know, who own that land. And here we have some specific examples of how things can be done and are being done to benefit indigenous communities and businesses. So, it's the way we need to move forward with development. It's an opportunity to work together, it's an opportunity to jointly understand issues, opportunities, challenges with projects, and to really come to a common understanding of how to do business together, both between, you know, our member companies and indigenous communities, important step forward. And I think the way things are going to be done in the future.   Dan Seguin  14:43 Okay, moving on to some challenges. It seems that the International Energy Agency expects hydropower generation to increase 50% by 2040. Is the hydropower sector, like many, having difficulty attracting new talent? What are the ways your sector is working to entice youth to consider hydroelectricity to keep up with the growing demand?   Gilbert Bennett  15:14 So, this is a huge challenge for not just our industry, but the Canadian economy in general, we have a retiring workforce, as our population ages. And we're not replacing people across multiple sectors in our economy. Certainly, an issue in the trades for construction and operations. So, a concern in engineering is a concern in most professions, that we're not replacing our workforce. And for our industry, we have a couple of associations that are really focused on this question. So, shout out for electricity, Human Resources, Canada here, they are playing a key role in highlighting opportunities, and reasons why people who are entering the workforce, you know, should look at a career in our sector. It's a common theme from trade unions to say, look, you know, here are these unionized positions, and the trades and the construction trades. And then the operating trades are high paying jobs, they have great working conditions. And they're a great way to build people's career. And it's probably something that we haven't talked about for a long time. These are ways to highlight opportunities in the industry, apprentice programs on projects are another way to highlight opportunities to get people entering the workforce. And then finally, you can link back to our discussion on indigenous communities where training, education, employment opportunities associated with projects are available for residents in nearby communities. But that's as most project developers today would look at that as a key way to both build workforce, and to build economic capability in the, in the communities where they're doing work. It's a big challenge. And we certainly have to, you know, find ways to get people into the trains to get things done. We're going to be talking about this one a lot.   Dan Seguin  17:04 Now, I'm curious to find out what makes our hydropower unique, isn't our production generation water rich reserves, or our cold climate that sets Canada's hydropower apart from other countries?   Gilbert Bennett  17:20 So, first of all, we look at the resource that we have, we have 7% of the world's renewable freshwater. So, 7% of the water that falls on the face of the planet, lands in Canada, and we have 5% of the world's population. So those were important to have the raw resources in the first place. So that certainly we have that in spades, but also the large landmass, we have favorable topography for hydropower sites, so the right to the terrain and most of Canada is favorable to hydropower development. We're a large country with a small population, but lots of water. So, we have a great resource. And I think that that's probably the key reason why we've, you know, got to where we are.   Dan Seguin  18:08 Okay, that's good, Gilbert. Now, do you expect hydropower to remain Canada's largest source of reliable, renewable power for the foreseeable future? What is something you want the government to know right now about how investing in hydroelectricity can help it achieve its netzero goals?   Gilbert Bennett  18:32 Okay, so the first, the first most important point is that the attributes of your hydropower fleet, the technical capabilities are really important in continuing to ensure that electricity, services for customers are reliable, cost effective and renewable. Now, our future is going to be all in with every non emitting and renewable option. So hydro, wind, solar, nuclear, hydrogen, all of these alternatives to fossil fuels, and others are going to be critical for us to achieve our net zero, or near zero aspiration. Hydro today is the backbone of our fleet. It has important services, and it's important to glue the rest of the system together. So that's probably the most important point and then we would say that development of hydropower facilities are long term investments, they have long term development cycles. So we need to be able to find ways to move forward with project approvals with upgrades with expansions you know that deliver low cost service to customers. Now we also recommend with note that our generator members are either major utilities or their producers themselves. So, getting the maximum value from our assets is going to be really important as well and the industry is going to continue to look at existing assets to see how we can get more out of those. So that may be increasing the capacity of sites using, you know, improving efficiency, being strategic about where you know where projects get built. And then finally understanding where hydro fits compared to other technologies. And there's a given that there will be opportunities for those other technologies to play important roles in this electricity system as well. When we look at sort of doubling the electricity system, there's going to be a lot of investment all around. And I think what we would say is that, you know, back to the fundamental point, hydropower is the backbone of the generating fleet in Canada. And it provides, you know, key services that are going to be needed now, well into the future.   Dan Seguin  20:35 Finally, Gilbert, we always end our interviews with some rapid-fire questions. We've got some new ones for you. Are you ready?   Gilbert Bennett  20:44 Let's go. Okay.   Dan Seguin  20:46 What are you reading right now?   Gilbert Bennett  20:48 Nothing on the bookshelf today. So, I will say the last binge read I had was on vacation last summer, and it would have been one of Tom Clancy novels.   Dan Seguin  20:57 Okay, good. Now, Gilbert, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?   Gilbert Bennett  21:04 I don't. We don't have one. This one is a standing family joke. The name of the boat would be Ylime, which is my daughter Emily's name spelled backwards. That's a standing joke for a while with the family.   Dan Seguin  21:18 Here's another question, Gilbert. Who is someone that you truly admire?   Gilbert Bennett  21:23 All right, so let's look back in history to someone who dealt with challenges on a similar scale to what we're talking about now. And I think I'd have to look to maybe someone like General Leslie Groves, from the Manhattan Project. So those of you have seen Oppenheimer would have a pretty clear handle about how he got things moving to that project.   Dan Seguin  21:46 Okay, moving on here. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Gilbert Bennett  21:52 Oh wow. Okay, so I'm an electrical engineer. So, some real things are more like magic to a lot of people. I would say for me, 15 years of effort of the Muskrat Falls project in Labrador, close to the breaker to put the first unit online, looks like magic after all that effort.   Dan Seguin  22:11 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Gilbert Bennett  22:18 Oh, well, I would say switching from a large office setting to a virtual team. And you know, of course, during my time on the Muskrat Project, we had, you know, 300 people on our team, and you're interacting with them on a daily basis. And now you go to a virtual team, and you're doing pretty well, everything like we're doing here today remotely. That was a major adjustment for me.   Dan Seguin  22:40 Okay. Now, we've all been watching a little more TV, a little more Netflix. What is your favorite show? Or series?   Gilbert Bennett  22:49 Oh, I just got through the last season of Slow Horses on Apple TV. So Misfits, that and MI five, who find a way to get things done. It was a pretty, pretty enjoyable series for me.   Dan Seguin  23:03 Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?   Gilbert Bennett  23:08 Oh, wow. I would say in a nutshell, everything. Sort of the scope, the scale, the challenges, the opportunities that we've talked about, I think are all are all exciting, and helping to, you know, find a way to retool our, our entire society so that it runs on renewables, I think is a huge is a huge challenge. And it was definitely pretty exciting.   Dan Seguin  23:30 Well, Gilbert, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?   Gilbert Bennett  23:42 Oh, two ways. Visit our website waterpowercanada.ca. And we're on LinkedIn as well. So follow the association. And keep up with what's going on in the industry.   Dan Seguin  23:54 Again, Gilbert, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.,   Gilbert Bennett  23:59 Oh this was great. It was great to be with you Daniel. Thanks so much.   Dan Seguin  24:06 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Ice storms, blizzards, and high winds can all lead to extended power outages, turning bad weather into a crisis for those affected. And Canada has had several intense cold weather events in recent years. In part 2 of mitigating the impacts of winter, experts Guy Lepage, Canadian Red Cross Disaster Management Volunteer, Julie Lupinacci, Chief Customer Officer at Hydro Ottawa, and Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions, share how to prepare for a winter disaster.   Related links   ●     Guy Lepage on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289 ●     Julie Lupinaccii on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/juliejlupinacci ●     Jim Pegg on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jim-pegg-4b588b17 ●     Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en ●     Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/ ●     Envair Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/  ●     Hydro Ottawa emergency preparedness: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/emergency-preparedness ●     Canadian Red Cross emergency preparedness and recovery: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada/be-ready-emergency-preparedness-and-recovery/ ●     Envari electric vehicles and infrastructure: https://envari.com/electric-vehicle-infrastructure/   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube   Follow along on Instagram   Stay in the know on Facebook   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod ---- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Welcome back, everyone. And thank you for joining us for part two of our winter highlight reel, where we revisit clips from previous interviews discussing the unique impact our Canadian winters have on our energy sector. Although Canadians are accustomed to cold and snowy winters, Recent years have brought more intense weather events into the mix. From heavy snowfall to ice storms to bone chilling subzero temperatures, these factors are driving the need for emergency preparedness and protocols to ensure public safety. Whether you're snugged at home or navigating the elements during your commute, utility companies like hydro Ottawa are pushing for increased reliability of their system. The goal is to keep your power on and keep you informed before, during and after outages. This commitment also extends to supporting the growing presence of electric vehicles on the road, emphasizing reliability in electric transportation. In our first clip, I spoke to Guy Lepage, a volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross disaster management, he sheds light on how the Red Cross provides support for those who may face devastating experiences. Let's dive into this conversation. Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters. I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters. What is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?   Guy Lepage  02:17 House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times people leave stuff on the stove and it spreads. Fire starts to spread, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assess the family to make sure they have lodging, they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And we're an emergency service, so after three days, people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any kind of disaster and and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building gets evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter in a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.   Dan Seguin  04:29 Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes?   Guy Lepage  04:42 I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you leave something unattended and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where indeed, mom and dad and three kids living in an apartment, and one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out, get out. So we responded, they went to a friend's location, so we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has to sit on her face because of the fire. And she starts crying and teardrops are rolling down through her soot stained cheeks and I'll always remember that image, because she was crying because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches, cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis, we will of course, but if you can prevent it, that's even better.   Dan Seguin  06:21 Okay. so next up, speaking on the topic of extreme weather, and preparing for emergencies. I have a clip from my interview on what electricity customers want with Julie Lupinacci, Hydro Ottawa's Chief Customer Officer. Julie speaks to how Hydro Ottawa is actively working on leveraging advanced technologies in order to improve communications during crisis situations. When customers are out of power, she also shares some key things to focus on when preparing an emergency kit for your family. Here's what Julie had to say. We are all aware that Ottawa has had some major, major weather events these past five to six years. What would you say to customers that are worried about reliability, power outages, and restoration?   Julie Lupinacci  07:19 Yeah, weather events have been tough. They're tough fun. And I don't think Ottawa has seen something like this in a very long time, like probably since the '98 ice storm and I'm not even sure that really measured up to the same impact right of what we saw and what customers dealt with. But what I would say is Hydro Ottawa has put a lot of focus on what we need to do from a grid perspective to adapt to the changing climate that we're seeing here in Ottawa. And that includes those weather events. Like I don't want to pretend that I know more than our Chief Electricity Distribution Officer, like I think you interviewed him maybe a couple of weeks ago. And in that podcast, he talks about what we're doing to future proof the grid against those extreme weather events. So I'm not going to try to think that I have anything more impactful that he will say on that front. But I will say that, from a front office perspective, from a customer service, from a communications perspective, we are really looking at a lot of those tools, and further modernizing them. And what I mean by that is, is taking a look at some different technology that allows us to receive more phone calls into our system, triage those phone calls, using some cloud based technology. So that not everybody is forced to talk to an individual because even at the height of the storm, like you're not going to have 10,000 people answering phone calls within a couple minutes of the storm hitting but we can use technology to triage to allow our customers to know that we know if they are out of power and provide them with the information that we have at that time. So looking at updating some of the telephony software that we have in utilize some of the new technology there. So we are actively working on that. The other component to communications because I think communications really is that biggest avenue for our customers especially during these winter weather events is pushing information out and we are looking to be working on an SMS text based technology system that allows us to push information out so similar to what we're pushing out through our social media channels today. Now sending that information directly to customers, either on their iPhone or potentially in their email box however they want to receive those inputs and alerts from hydro Ottawa. We also took some steps to help people become aware like the weather alert, the weather system and the weather alerts. that are out there giving people a heads up on systems that are coming through. Like that's, that's one thing. But I think customers want to know, when we're looking at a weather event that's different, right? You'll, you'll know when rains coming into Ottawa and you'll get those alerts about snow and all of those things, but not all weather impacts our grid, and what we're looking at is to be able to provide an alert system, again, through through whether it's an SMS or an email out directly into customers inboxes, so to speak, giving them a heads up when we're watching it differently, right. And if we're watching it differently, you know, messages are going out, make sure phones are charged, make sure that you've got blankets, make sure you know where your flashlights and your candles are. So really concentrate on getting people ready for what they need to do. So there's a few steps and you can follow us on hydroottawa.com to get better details on that. But that's what we're doing and making sure that we're putting that out there. Additionally, we've piloted sorry, Dan, I got one more. Additionally, we've piloted a battery program, this was used to be able to support some of our capital work. But in the recent storm this year, we use that battery pilot to be able to help some of the most vulnerable customers in Ottawa, that are really relying on electricity to be able to breathe, right and working with the paramedics hand in hand to make sure that these batteries got to those households so that they, you know, had some additional time for us to get the power back on either to their house or to the community.   Dan Seguin  11:42 Now tell me Julie, what are some of the things customers can do to be better prepared for emergencies and outages?   Julie Lupinacci  11:51 Yeah, so I think there's a few things that we need to do. One, I think we need some major awareness about what that is, like, going back to our elementary school days when we had to plot out the fire, you know, the fire escape plan for our house, right? And go back to thinking about if there's an emergency, do we have an emergency kit together? Right? Do we have bottled water in our house? Do we have working flashlights, right? Not just flashlights that don't have batteries? But where are those batteries? And they are up to date, right? Making sure that you have them not all over the place. But you know where these flashlights are right. I know if anybody's like my kids, they come in, they grab the flashlights and all of a sudden they're in different locations around the house like they need to be, your emergency kit needs to be in one central place so that you know how to get to it, whether the lights are on or off. The other piece is I would make sure that you're following us on our social channels, because we do put information out there. So make sure if you haven't connected with us that you do connect with us. And you can go to our website to find out what those are, I won't list them off here. But the other piece that I would really strongly suggest is that people go and update their contact information into our database or into our database, which will become even more crucial as we start sending these alerts and messages directly to you. Right, no longer just through social media but directly to you and your household to be able to let you know what's going. And if I could say one other thing is that I think planning based on our reliability that we've always had, and the experience that you've always had to these dates, it's no longer enough, right? Like hydro is going to do everything that we can to get the power back on. But you need to plan for Worst case scenario, you can't plan only for the best case. So having an alternative place to go speaking with family and saying if power's out here, we're going to come over and what do we need to bring? Having those plans in place in advance makes you better equipped to withstand any weather event that comes through that may have an outage associated with it.   Dan Seguin  13:59 NExt up, I have Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions. In my interview with Jim he shared all about electric vehicles, including the benefits and challenges of ownership in Canada. In this upcoming clip, he shares some strategies around optimizing electric vehicle usage in winter. Being an EV owner myself, I can confirm that our cold Canadian winters pose certain challenges when it comes to battery life. Is this something to be aware of? And how can organizations mitigate any issues?   Jim Pegg  14:41 So I would say yes, it is true that the cold weather has an impact on batteries, you know, depending on where you are on the globe, there's different different weather patterns and so on, but cold weather certainly has an impact on batteries and the range needed of those batteries. Currently, there are a few ways to tackle this. One is something called pre-conditioning, meaning having your vehicle plugged in while it's warming up in the morning, and you can actually automate that to take place at a certain time. And it can help maintain the battery's range for that day. So that can have a really big impact. The other factor, you know, is what we talked about a little bit earlier, it was a driver training, you know, simple things like understanding the impact of few degrees of heat can have or how people actually drive smooth versus hard accelerations, all those things have an impact on the range you get out of your battery. The good news is with you know, with upfront planning, these issues can be managed to a point where they're not issues at all, you know, and if, if more public chargers come along each year, the certainty around getting from point A to B, to C, D, E, F, and G will get stronger and stronger. There's also a lot of work going into battery technology itself that will help with cold climates as well as the speed at which batteries can be recharged without causing, you know, increased battery degradation. The risk right now is if you know fleets of vehicles are out there and they're constantly having to use fast chargers and higher power chargers on their vehicles on the smaller size fleets that can have a damaging impact on your battery life. But there's a lot of technology going into working on that. But again, with good planning and understanding of a fleet's needs, there are certainly ways to plan around those issues.   Dan Seguin  16:26 Now, I may be biased but as a proud owner of an EV, who has been driving in all sorts of wintry conditions, I can say that the benefits of EV driving far outweigh the challenges around battery usage in the cold. So if you're considering purchasing an EV on your own, I can tell you that you won't regret it. And as Jim said, the technology is always improving. Finally, folks, thank you for joining me today for part two of our winter highlight reel. And thank you for another incredible year! Oh, and before I forget, I'd love to hear from you, our listeners. If you have any feedback or suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com. I'd love to hear from you. I can't wait to continue this journey with you, so we'll be back in two weeks. On Tuesday, January 2, to kickoff 2024 with all new shows, interesting guests and topics. And, as always, there will be some surprises. Don't forget to subscribe to stay in the loop. Until next time, folks. Happy holidays. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com And I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.