ThinkEnergy

How can you prepare for the inevitability of a power outage? What role does your utility provider play in restoring power? How are they being proactive about future outages? In this episode of thinkenergy, host Trevor Freeman shines the light on power outages and the strategies used by utilities to manage them. Learn about preventive measures, emergency responses, and the tools Hydro Ottawa uses to restore power quickly and enhance grid resilience. Listen in. Related links ●     Canadian Red Cross Emergency Preparedness Kit: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada/for-home-and-family/get-a-kit ●     Hydro Ottawa Outage Centre: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/outage-centre ●     Hydro Ottawa Emergency Preparedness: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/emergency-preparedness ●     Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ ●     Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en    To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited  Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa  Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa  Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod   Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening.  Hey everyone, and welcome back, as you heard in the intro, this is a think energy short, so it'll just be me diving into a certain topic that helps round out our understanding of the energy world. Today, we're talking about something that we've all experienced or has affected us in one way or another. At some point power outages. So, a power outage is never fun. Nobody wants to go through that, but as we increasingly electrify our lives, they become more and more impactful when our mode of transportation and our method of heating and cooling our homes relies on electricity, we want that power back as soon as possible. Today, we're going to look at how utilities like Hydro Ottawa manage outages, from prevention to repairs so that we get power back on as soon as possible. Now here in Ottawa, we all know how unpredictable the weather can be. One minute it's a blizzard, the next it's sunny and 15 degrees outside, or vice versa. And over the past few years, we've seen it all from wild wind storms, everybody remembers the derecho, tornados, ice storms, floods, we've kind of run the gamut of weather, and that's going to continue as climate change changes our global weather patterns, we're going to see more and more extreme weather. So, this is a topic that's not going anywhere. It's also not just mother nature that's throwing us curveballs. Sometimes it's a squirrel or another animal that's, you know, causing mischief on our power lines, or a car that takes out a hydro pole, or just equipment reaching the end of its life. Whatever the cause, when the power goes out, all we want to know is one thing, when will it be back on? So today, we'll go behind the scenes a little bit and see how we tackle outages from start to finish. We'll look at the strategies that we use to prevent outages, the priorities that we follow during a storm, and the lessons learned to improve the grid for the future. So, let's dive in.  The first topic is prevention. Now we can't predict all outages. For example, if it's animal interference or a car accident, we can't predict that. But, for weather related outages, you might be surprised to know that Hydro, Ottawa has a team monitoring the weather, 24/7. They're kind of like our weather detectives, and they look at forecasts and try to predict potential impacts to the grid related to weather. Even when the skies are clear, however, our crews are working hard to prepare ourselves for things like inclement weather. They're out there, inspecting lines, trimming trees and upgrading equipment. Think of it as giving our entire electrical system a regular health checkup. Speaking of health checkups, trees are a major culprit when it comes to outages, especially here in the Ottawa Valley, where we have so many trees and a lot of forested and wooded areas, which is great, it's why we love this area, but that can interfere with our power lines. So Hydro Ottawa has a team of dedicated arborists who work year-round to keep branches trimmed and clear of power lines. But sometimes there is a storm on the horizon, and that's when things kick into high gear. Our crews are put on standby. We alert our customers through email and text and social media in order to be as prepared as possible and let us respond quickly when an outage does happen. So, during the storm, when the storm hits and the power goes out, what happens then? While restoring power isn't as simple as just flipping a switch. Hydro Ottawa follows a carefully structured plan to ensure safety and that we get the lights back on as quickly as possible. Let's take the example of a major storm that has caused widespread outages across our service territory. Our first job is to investigate the extent of the damage and understand what's actually happened. Where is there damage on our system? Now when it comes to restoration, safety is our number one priority, so we want to address any hazards like downed power lines immediately, as soon as we find out about them, and that's both for the safety of the public and the safety of our crews. Now our crews may be out there even while the storm is still going on, so safety is absolutely paramount, and we ensure that they work safely. The next focus of ours would be critical infrastructure. So, this is things like our own substations and main power lines, the real backbone of our system that provides power to the rest of the city, and then we look at the essential services. So, these would be things like hospitals, water treatment plants, things that our emergency responders need. We then move on to widespread outages. So, our goal is to bring customers back on as soon as possible. And we look for those areas where we can get the largest number of customers back on the quickest. After that, we would move to smaller neighborhoods and smaller clusters, those pockets of outages where there are less customers impacted. And finally, we move on to individual homes and businesses that might be out. Now it's important to note here that if those homes and businesses have sustained damage to their own electrical equipment, so something that is customer owned, that may need to be addressed before we're able to restore power, and the customer needs to work with a licensed electrician to make those repairs before we can turn the power back on. But the good news is is we will work with a customer and help them understand what's required on their side in order for us to restore power safely. Again, I can't stress this enough, we want to make sure we do everything as safe as possible for the customers and for our crews. Throughout this entire process, communication is absolutely critical. So, we want to be communicating with our customers about what's happening on the grid, hopefully giving some insight into when they might expect the power to be back on. To do this, we use outage maps on our website and on our app, text alerts, and social media in order to communicate. Now, it's important to know here that we provide initial restoration times, but those may change once our crew gets on the site and assesses the damage, or as a project progresses and we understand what's required to get that power back on. So, sometimes restoration times can change, and they are dependent on a number of different factors. Can be weather conditions, the location of the outage, how severe the damage is, and what other outages are happening on the grid. During an outage, it's important that you as the customer also stay safe. So, in the winter, stay in your home as long as it's safe and warm and you have food and water. The city during widespread outages, or if an emergency is declared, may open emergency warming centers or cooling centers during the summer months. And you can get more information on that by listening to local broadcasts, by looking at city resources and also checking out Hydro Ottawa resources. One thing I can say is that during a storm and while there's a power outage, our crews will be at work, 24/7, until power is restored to every customer. Okay. So, the storm is over and the power is restored, so the work stops there, right? Wrong. After every storm, we look for lessons learned to improve our response and improve the grid's resiliency. So, we look at outage data, response times, the repair efforts, to really refine our strategies and determine where improvements can be made. One question that we often get, especially after storms, is, why not just put all the power lines underground to prevent storm related outages? While that may sound like a great idea, the reality is that underground systems are significantly more expensive, sometimes up to 11 times the cost of overhead lines. So, undergrounding may work in some cases, it's definitely not a one size fits all fix. The last section to talk about is how to be prepared power outages, unfortunately, will happen. We can't be 100% sure that we can prevent them. So how can you make sure you're prepared? Well, the Canadian Red Cross recommends having an emergency kit ready with enough supplies to be self-sufficient for at least 72 hours. Think about things like food, water, medications, flashlights, a battery powered radio, anything you might need to be self-sufficient for that 72-hour period. There are lots more tips that you can find on this on Hydro Ottawa's website. So have a look.  That wraps up today's episode. We've covered a number of different things, from before storm to after storm and continuous improvement. Just remember that you can stay informed by visiting Hydro Ottawa's outage map on our website or on our mobile app. You can follow us on social media and make sure you sign up for outage alerts. Thanks for tuning in to a think energy short and join us next time for another guest interview.  Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

Bryan Flannigan, Executive Director of the Building Decarbonization Alliance, brings decades of experience in emission reduction. He discusses the urgent need to decarbonize Canada's building sector, which contributes to 30-40% of national energy use. Bryan shares insights on innovative strategies for achieving net-zero emissions by 2050, including energy-efficient retrofits and overcoming barriers to sustainable technologies like heat pumps. The conversation also touches on the complexities of political ideologies and the importance of collaboration in climate policy.

The energy sector is always changing. Episode 149 of thinkenergy explores what to keep an eye on this year. Like political influence. How will the Trump administration's takeover reshape policies across the border? What are the potential impacts of federal and provincial elections here in Canada and Ontario? From energy strategies to affordability to decarbonization efforts. Listen in as host Trevor Freeman uncovers how politics influence the energy sector and what to expect from thinkenergy in 2025.   Related links   Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod   Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com Hey everyone, and welcome back, and welcome to 2025. Happy New Year. I hope you all had a restful and relaxing break. I know I certainly enjoyed a little bit of time off with some friends and family, and it was nice to sort of recharge. But here we are at the start of a new year, at 2025 early January, the whole year is ahead of us, and there's lots of work to do, and being in the energy sector means there's lots of change ahead. On that note, today, we thought we'd dive into some of the areas that we think might shape or influence or be areas to watch for when it comes to energy in 2025. There's no such thing as a quiet or stand still year when it comes to the energy sector, 2025 will be no different. So, we thought we'd take a look at some of the things that we think might sort of hit the headlines or really drive change.  So, without further ado, let's dive into those areas. Area number one is politics. So, energy is political, and energy shapes politics, and politics shapes energy, and that's the same every year, but 2025 is shaping up to be a pretty significant year when it comes to political change that might impact energy policy. So, to start with, we are mere days away, a little over a week away as I record this from a new US administration. The Trump administration will take over on January 20, and like any change in administration and what is arguably the biggest economy in the world that will have an impact on climate change policy, energy policy, the flow of goods across borders. You know, there's talk of tariffs between Canada and the US. So just because it is in the United States, that doesn't mean it won't impact us here in Canada, so we'll be looking to see what change that does bring, what how that influences politics and energy policy and the flow of goods and all of those things that can impact what we do with energy. A little bit closer to home however, we also have some change potentially coming here in Ontario, at least, we are looking at potentially two elections this year. So, to start with, there's the federal election. It is very, very likely, almost a sure thing that we will see a federal election in the coming months. Justin Trudeau has recently announced his resignation, which will almost definitely trigger an election. So, we could be looking at a new government, or a new mandate for the existing government. So, what might that mean? Well, if the Liberal Party the current government, manages to get another mandate and remain in power, we kind of know what their priorities are. They've been going down a path for the last little while. They will probably continue to invest in clean energy infrastructure, they will continue to push for net zero goals and look for ways to support others to achieve net zero targets as well. If there's a change in governments, which the polling suggests is likely, and the Conservatives get into power, they are likely to look to prioritize affordability and resource sector competitiveness. They may also adjust timelines for emissions targets as a result of that. The one big thing that's worth mentioning, of course, is the price on carbon. This was brought in by the existing Liberal government, and they stand behind it. The Conservatives are very much campaigning on a platform of getting rid of the price on carbon, the Federal price on carbon that will have significant impact on energy policy and how things move. There are a few previous episodes that you can listen to that talk a little bit about that, and I'm sure we'll talk about it throughout the year as things play out. And finally, in this section, in Ontario, it's very likely that we might see a provincial election as well. All signs are kind of pointing towards a provincial election this year. So what could that mean? Well, similarly, our existing government has kind of made their energy policy known. We know what their focus is. So they are focused on expanding our traditional energy mix, so nuclear, some natural gas, as well as some investments in renewables in order to make sure that the grid can handle growth and electrification in that sort of rising demand that we're seeing. Should we see a change in government to one of the opposition parties? There may be more of a push for more renewable sources and lowering those carbon emissions faster than the current pace of change, at least based on what they are saying. So we'll keep an eye on that and how that comes into play. Obviously, energy is sort of primarily in the provincial jurisdiction here, so a change in government or a new mandate for the existing government would certainly have a big impact on energy policy. So area number one politics, area number two is energy affordability.  So Canadians have always cared about affordability when it comes to energy this has been sort of a driver in previous elections, but it is definitely top of mind now, as we are coming out of sort of a wave of inflation, supply chain issues, there's an affordability crisis, sort of across the economy in Canada, for many Canadians. So that definitely applies to energy as well. What does this mean? Well, it certainly will influence the way many people vote in the elections that I just mentioned. So look for Canadians to be wanting to know what those political parties stance is on energy and energy affordability. It may also impact the pace of adoption of decarbonization measures and electrification and some of those energy transition pieces that we're seeing. So if folks are struggling with the affordability of their bill. That means they are not likely to invest in large upfront capital cost items to change that. On the other hand, Canadians will be looking for ways to reduce their energy costs, and so maybe some of these items that might help reduce electricity costs will become more attractive to Canadians, they will also be looking for programs to help them with this, and the province just recently announced their new incentive structures, or the new iteration of save on energy incentive programs called the home renovation savings program here in Ontario, and Canadians will likely want to take advantage of that to help upgrade equipments, make their homes more efficient. There's a commercial stream for that as well, so businesses and institutions will also be looking to take advantage of that to address energy costs. So energy affordability will certainly be a driver, as it often is in 2025.  Area number three is decarbonization. So decarbonization is here to stay, and we expect that to ramp up this year, for sure, to continue being a point of importance for Canadians. So the climate crisis won't disappear from the news. As I record this, we're, you know, seeing these really terrible images and stories coming out of the Los Angeles area about wildfires, it seems like that's a perennial thing. We see that every year now, that will continue, and that really does drive people to think about their own decarbonization journeys. We are still in the early stages of adoption for some of this technology. You know, heat pumps, home generation and storage, real deep decarbonization measures were in those early stages. So I don't expect, you know, massive steps forward in the next 12 months, but I think more folks are going to start thinking about and planning for their actions on this, and that's at the both the residential and the commercial level. So here at Hydro Ottawa, we're seeing a lot of our commercial customers take advantage of our Enercan funded Ottawa Retrofit Accelerator program, which really supports that sort of carbon pathway planning, that plan to decarbonization. And I think a lot of folks will start thinking, you know, what's my next move when it comes to decarbonizing? You know, if my furnace is getting to be a little bit old, am I going to put that heat pump in? You know, even if I don't do it in the next 12 months, I want to start thinking about what that looks like. So we expect decarbonization to continue to be a point of focus. We expect it to be a point of topic, you know, in these elections that we talked about, because that climate crisis is in front of our faces, always in the news, and that won't be changing. Area number four is clean electricity, grid modernization and energy efficiency. So in keeping with the previous point, decarbonization, electrification is one of the main tools to decarbonize, and we are moving to changing some of those end uses, from fossil fuel combustion to electricity. So things like heating our homes, our spaces, our water and transportation. You know, how we get around, what we drive, what sort of public transportation we take. The solution to these things, when it comes to climate change, is primarily electricity. So in order to make sure that we have enough electricity and that the electricity we have is clean enough to support that, we will see more movement towards this in this year. So just in December before the end of the year, December 2024, the Federal clean electricity regulations were finalized. And these regulations kind of chart a path to decarbonizing electricity generation in Canada by 2050 you'll notice that that's a change in date. The previous target was going to be 2035 but over the course of the last little while, the federal government has come out and said, yeah, look, we think it's more realistic to set 2050 as a target, so that is the new target. And the federal government's investing significant money behind this. There's $60 billion to help this general move towards decarbonizing our electricity generation, and to make sure that that's done in a way that keeps energy affordable for Canadians. At the same time, utilities across the country will continue to invest in grid modernization. So as well as infrastructure expansion, not just modernization, we're also building and growing our grids to keep up with the pace of change, but we need to also be able to leverage more DER's on the grid, so more distributed energy resources, small scale solar generation, things like that. So we will continue to see utilities make steps in that direction. They will look to levels of government to support those initiatives through programs and funding and regulatory change. So we will continue to see that change in grid modernization. I know it's definitely a big topic for us here at Hydro Ottawa. And finally, in this section, energy efficiency. Energy efficiency is not new. It's been around for for quite a while. In fact, it was the primary focus, kind of before we shifted a little bit more towards thinking about carbon. But we cannot fully decarbonize. We cannot fully electrify without significant energy efficiency. We just won't be able to affordably build the infrastructure we need if we're not using energy in an efficient way. So that will continue to be a focus. And in fact, I mentioned the new incentive programs from the province of Ontario that is very much designed to support ongoing energy efficiency measures. So, we will continue to see that as a focus in 2025 and our final area, area number five, is technology.  So there is no year anymore, in fact, maybe there never was where technology doesn't continue to grow and expand and evolve in ways that we couldn't even imagine. And it does seem like the pace of change is picking up, but I think that's kind of normal. So we will see technology that supports or augments the energy transition continue to evolve in 2025 and the ways that technology influenced that really, you know, we have an idea on some of them, and it'll be interesting to look back in 12 months at what we know in December 2025, that we didn't even know here today in January. So a couple specific areas. You know, we're seeing EV technologies continuing to involve we will see continued EV adoption throughout the year. Year over year, over the last five years, you know, EV adoption in Canada has increased steadily. In July of 2024 you know, zero emission vehicles hit almost 14% of market share, we can expect that to continue increasing. As that happens, you know, more charger technology out there, more sort of, not just the physical charger, but the ways that those chargers interact with the grid more control over that to make sure that we're managing charging in an appropriate way. The role of AI is really going to be interesting to watch this year. So AI, of course, is all over the news across all sectors of the economy, but certainly in the energy sector, it has a role to play, and there's kind of two facets to that. The first is the role that AI might play in helping us manage our energy costs, our energy usage, and that's both at the consumer level. So, what will AI help me do in my home, to manage my energy costs, to manage the sort of cleanliness of my energy? Let's say I want to really focus on just, you know, green energy when the grid is at its cleanest and try and avoid it when it's maybe more carbon intensive. What's the role of AI in that this is likely a multi year stretch. I'm not saying that we're going to sort of have all those questions answered by the end of this year, but I think we will see movement in that direction over the course of this year, and then also at the utility level. What's the role of AI in helping utilities manage the grid? You know, understanding where there are feeders that are increasing or that are getting near capacity limits and needing to shift. Again, this is not a 12 month exercise. This is a multi year exercise, but I expect we will maybe see some movement in that direction. The other way that AI and the increasing role of AI will impact the energy sector is just purely from an energy needs perspective, so AI is an order of magnitude higher when it comes to the amount of computing power that is necessary. So that, you know, the kind of stat that gets thrown around is that a chat GPT search uses about 10 times more energy as a standard Google, you know, search, a search engine search. So with all of this stuff going through AI, we're seeing more computing power needed. So that means, you know, bigger, more dense data centers that have larger cooling needs, which means more energy requirements. And, as much as we're seeing electrification drive demand up for electricity AI usage and data center usage is also driving up demand. And, so we're seeing larger load requests. You know, utilities are having to figure out, how do we provide way more power than we've had to previously, to some of these new customers and customers that are wanting it kind of overnight, like, hey, we're ready to build a data center like tomorrow. Can you supply us with a significant amount of power? So that will certainly be a driver. The last little piece of technology that I want to mention there's, you know, we could go on for hours on this topic is when it comes to sort of home generation and storage, especially storage. Solar panels have kind of been around for a while now. We've seen that really precipitous drop in price when it comes to solar technology, and that continues, but home, or sort of behind the meter storage, is really becoming a thing that is more realistic than it has ever been before. So, the incentive programs that I've brought up a couple times here in the province of Ontario now provide an incentive to put in a behind the meter battery in your home, and the role that those will play, we're only just beginning to see, you know, helping customers manage their energy costs. You know, charge that with your solar panels and then use the battery during peak times, or charge it during off peak times and use it during peak times. You know, managing costs redundancy and resiliency, and, you know, helping you out with a bit of a bridge during times of outage will be really important. And you know, we're seeing that at the at the household level, but we're also going to see that on a much bigger scale, at the commercial level. So, commercial customers are also looking at what's the role of battery storage to help them manage costs, and then even one next level, up at the grid level. So, we are seeing large scale battery storage projects that will support sort of grid management, help manage peaks for utilities so that they can, you know, defer or delay or reduce the size of that infrastructure builds, you know, if they can manage to rely on batteries for those handful of times a year when we spike into those peaks, then that helps out with grid planning. So those are some of the technology pieces that we expect to see really kind of flourish or take it to the next level in 2025 again, all of these things are not short term projects, 2025 we'll see some change, but these are, like, multi year things that will go on beyond that. So those are the areas that we think will kind of drive change, or be areas to watch for this year. You can likely expect some conversations on the podcast about that over the course of the year, because certainly they will be making news, and there's some really interesting folks working on some really interesting things when it comes to those areas. But, was there anything that we didn't identify that you're kind of keeping your eye on? Is there anything that you think we should be keeping your eye on, or that you're keeping a look at? Feel free to let us know you can reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com As always, we love to hear your thoughts and feedback. We love to hear kind of your ideas for topics or episodes that we should do or guests that we should have on the show. We're going to continue to explore with format this year. So we'll definitely keep talking to some really smart folks, we will throw out a few more of those kind of explainer episodes where we try to demystify a complex or maybe unseen topic when it comes to the energy sector. But, whatever we do, we look forward to having ongoing conversations with you guys and hearing your feedback, and this is the kind of stuff that we just love talking about. So thanks for listening. Happy New Year, and we look forward to chatting to you next time.  Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

The final episode of thinkenergy in 2024 unwraps on the year’s biggest topic: the energy transition. Learn how it’s shaped discussions and actions across the energy sector, as we revisit the most insightful moments from past episodes, including expert insights on sustainable practices, investments needed for future transformations, and the impacts on rural, remote, and urban communities. Tune in for a holiday rewind of how the energy transition affects Canadian consumers, businesses, and the environment.   Related links   ●       Episode 144 (The what, where, when, and how of Canada’s energy transition): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/the-what-where-when-and-how-of-canadas-energy-transition/ ●       Episode 140 (Current affairs with Francis Bradley, Electricity Canada’s President and CEO): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/current-affairs-with-francis-bradley-electricity-canadas-president-and-ceo/ ●       Episode 141 (Decarbonizing and electrifying your home, with Sarah Grant of Goldfinch Energy): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-and-electrifying-your-home-with-sarah-grant-of-goldfinch-energy/ ●       Episode 142 (Electrifying Canada’s remote communities with QUEST Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/ ●       Episode 142 (Turning energy consumer interest into action with EY Global): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/turning-energy-consumer-interest-into-action-with-ey-global/ ●       Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ ●       Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en    To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod   Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrottawa.com. Hey everyone and welcome back. Well, we find ourselves here at the tail end of 2024 about to wrap up the year. Hopefully you are all looking at some restful holiday plans, a chance to sort of unwind and decompress after what seems to be the same every year, kind of a busy year. There's always lots going on, but hopefully you're looking forward to some downtime over the holidays. I know I certainly am, as is normal, at the end of the year, we are looking back on the year that was the year that we've just gone through. And I'll say right off the bat that I'm really grateful for this year and this chance to step into the host role of the think energy podcast earlier this year, I took over in March of this year, when the previous host, Dan Seguin, retired, so I'll express my gratitude right off the bat to Dan and team for sort of pioneering this podcast over the previous years and then trusting me to take over the host chair. It's been a really fun journey and fun to kind of engage with our guests on different topics that I'm really passionate about you guys know from listening to this that I really like talking about climate change and energy and the energy transition, and this is a really cool and neat platform to be able to do that. So, thanks to the team for trusting me with that role. One thing we've been doing, as we've been looking back, is trying to figure out, you know, what is the main theme of this podcast here? What do we actually talk about? In our last episode you know that we did a bit of a summary of some of the top episodes from the year, in terms of, you know, interest from you the listener. For this one, what we wanted to do is really embody the theme of the year, and I think it should be no surprise that the theme is the energy transition. I mean, that's kind of the theme of the podcast. I know we touch on other aspects of working in the energy sector, but the energy transition is really the all-encompassing theme or thing that we talk about, and we spend a lot of time on here in this podcast, and so we wanted to bring you some of the episodes that really talk through what that energy transition is, and what does it mean for us. What does it mean for us as energy consumers, as homeowners and people that work and own and run businesses, as people that work in the utility industry and are making decisions about the future of energy? So, we've picked a few clips from the year that we think really embody that. So, get comfy, hopefully you're warm inside, as it's maybe snowy out where you are, maybe not, maybe you're listening from somewhere warm. But get comfy and have a listen to what we think are some of the clips that really embody what this year was about when it comes to the energy transition.  To start things off, I think it would be good to and unfortunately, you're going to have to listen to my voice for another little bit longer. It'll be good to start with an episode I did not too long ago, which was really a primer on the energy transition, which really focused on helping everybody wrap their heads around what exactly is this thing that we talk about called the energy transition. So have a listen to this clip from that. And if you're interested, go back and listen to the whole episode. When we think about the energy transition, we probably mostly think of this ongoing shift to cleaner emissions free energy. So EVs over gas cars, heat pumps over gas furnaces, etc. That is definitely part of it. In fact, that's a major part of it. But like most things in life, it's never just as simple as that. The energy transition is a truly fundamental shift in our global relationship with energy, which includes not just what makes our cars go, but everything from how, where and when we generate energy, how, where and when we store and use energy, how we pay for the energy we use, how we finance and pay for energy projects and the systems that we need to do all the things I just mentioned. It will include a shift in what policies and regulatory guidelines and barriers we put in place to protect the public, but that also encourage change that we want to see happen to allow for innovation and advancement. It isn't completely throwing out everything we have and starting from scratch, although some things will disappear, like coal fired electricity generation, for example, but in a lot of areas, it is building on what we've already got at a pace that we haven't seen before, or at least in a very long time. I think that's a key point here. One of the things that makes the energy transition, a change worth noting is the pace of change that we will see. Things have never really been static in the world of energy, from that time when our earliest ancestors first sparked that fire, this is the poetic part that I mentioned earlier, our relationship to energy has never really stood still, but other than a few significant events, the upward trend in sophistication and growth and scope has been fairly linear, gradual, one step after the other, et cetera. It's those exceptions, though, those things that are different from that gradual, linear growth that probably most closely resemble this period of change that has started that we're calling the energy transition. Take the Industrial Revolution, for example. For decades and centuries prior, there had been gradual improvements in how we got around or how we work the fields. Let's say, you know, first by hand, then with tools, maybe a better plow came along. We started using a horse or an oxen to pull that plow, etc. That along comes the steam engine, and all of a sudden, things take off like never before. It wasn't just a matter of swapping out a horse for an engine. It may have started there, but entire economies and aspects of society changed or sprang up where they didn't exist before one change rolls into another and another in quick succession, and before too long, things that couldn't be imagined only decades before are suddenly a reality to a degree, that's what we're looking at today with the energy transition. How far that change goes remains to be seen, but it's pretty clear that we have begun one of those disruptive periods of change that will be looked back on as a major turning point. So yes, the energy transition is about shifting away from greenhouse gas emitting fossil fuels, coal, oil, natural gas, et cetera, to renewable, non-emitting energy sources, solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, etc. But it's also so much more. Even without climate change, our need for energy is growing at an exponential pace. In Canada, we're fortunate in that we have a strong foundation with a relatively decarbonized grid already, so about 80% carbon free nationally, and a diverse mix of hydro, nuclear and renewables like wind and solar. But it's still going to take quite a lot of effort to decarbonize that remaining 20% at a time when, as I keep mentioning, demand is increasing rapidly. In Ontario, our electricity system operator, the ieso, just updated their future demand projections to show that provincial demand will be 75% more or less high by 2050 than it is today. This means we also need to invest in our grid infrastructure to ensure it can handle the increased load, as well as utilizing things like decentralized generation and storage to ensure we don't over build not to mention making sure we can handle more extreme weather.  So, I think that's a good place to set the stage for us. But now let's get into some of the real experts on this. And we'll go next to a conversation that I had with Francis Bradley, who's the president and CEO of electricity Canada. Electricity Canada is the sort of national voice of sustainable electricity. Here in Canada, they represent 40 of the largest utility companies. So that's companies that generate, transmit and distribute electricity from coast to coast all across Canada. And Francis and I talked about what level of investment is going to be required in order to accomplish some of those aspects of the energy transition that we talk about. So, here's what Francis had to say about that.   Francis Bradley  09:02 I mean, these are, these are great questions in terms of what the investments are going to look like. And so, you know, we're looking at, as I said earlier, doubling the doubling the grid, we're going to need at least two times more kilowatt hours when we get to the future. So, you know, that's the level of investment that we need to be thinking about. There have been different organizations that have tried to kind of get a scope and scale of what that actually looks like. Again, I mentioned the RBC climate Institute last year. It had a study that came out, and I believe they, they peg this at, I think was $2 trillion was the was the amount that they expected this to cost? Where's the money coming from? Well, you know, that's a really good question, and it's one that we've been engaging in for a number of years now. And I'll try not to be, like, totally pedantic on this, but you know, if you can consider from a public policy standpoint, if we believe that expanding the electricity system is necessary to decarbonize the Canadian economy, then essentially, what you're saying is that expanding the electricity system is a public good from, you know, from an economic theory standpoint, if it's a public good, well, then it is something that should be borne by that taxpayer, not the ratepayer, right? And so, you know, part of this discussion is, who needs to bear the costs for building out a clean, non-emitting electricity system so that the rest of the economy can decarbonize. Should it be the electricity customer, or are there parts of this, this core infrastructure, that that are regarded as a public good, and it's something that this paid for by the taxpayer, you know, and we see this in other sectors, other sectors as well, where, you know, certain things are perceived to be public good and their taxpayers supported. And we saw a bit of a recognition and a realization that this made sense to a degree in the federal government's budget in 2023 where, you know, they essentially pledged one in every $8 in new spending was going to clean electricity projects through a variety of needs. You know, the investment tax credits, the Canada infrastructure bank, a number of funding mechanisms. So, I mean that those kinds of dollars from the federal government was a commitment to building infrastructure that really is unheard of at a national level since the Second World War. So, you know, it really kind of moved clean energy and electrification into the category of, well, I guess it's a public good. Because, you know, there's a recognition that if the federal government wants to achieve these policy objectives, it needs to put some federal dollars in. So, you know that determination is and whether it's a public good or not, has been made in favor of the taxpayer versus the rate there. Now, again, you know, you could easily say, well, hang on a second, the rate payer and the taxpayer the same person, except that it doesn't quite work the same way. You know, do we want to attach to the customers’ bills, every single customer, the cost of you knows, this, this expansion of our infrastructure or not. And you know, electricity bills are not something that fall, as taxes do disproportionately on those that are wealthier, right? And so, it is a little fairer. Now, you know, in terms of the specific investments, you know, I think exactly how this is going to happen and how it's going to roll out. Those details are still being worked out by some of our members. But I do want to highlight that, you know, the approach here that we're seeing from the government, which we appreciate, is, you know, a one that is so far technology and agnostic, which we think is the right way to go. So, you know, we there isn't, like, a right way or a wrong way to generate electricity. So, you know, the future that we see is going to be an all of the above future that will encompass wind and solar and nuclear and traditional hydro and and hydrogen and carbon capture and storage and more. Not only does that give us, you know, the greatest flexibility, and gives us the ability to balance different types of generation, dispatchable versus non dispatchable. But it also gives us, you know, overall, a far more flexible system. So, you know, that's the what the future is going to look like. So, to, you know, to give you the short answer, it'll be all of the above, and it'll be probably $2 trillion. You know, I kind of touched on this a couple of times, but No, first and foremost, the energy transition, if you will, as I noted earlier, can't be paid exclusively by the ratepayers, right? You know, this is an overall objective that we have. And so, you know, the infrastructure build is so large that that it needs to be, certainly, parts of it need to be paid through the tax system, and that that is progressive in a way that rates are not progressive to begin with. Now, you know, but boy, addressing vulnerable customers absolutely critical. Now there's a variety of things that that could be tried. You know, in the United States that there's a Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program that it helps keep families safe and healthy through initiatives that assist families with energy costs this, I think they call it the LIHEAP provides federally funded assistance to reduce the costs associated with home energy bills, energy crises, weatherization and minor energy related home repairs. So you know, a similar initiative in Canada could be there to assist the but the most vulnerable, you know, as you're aware, you know, your most vulnerable customers are the ones that have the least capacity to do things like weatherization, and so, you know, there's an example of a national program that we could look at as a model.   Trevor Freeman  15:16 Francis is spot on there when he talks about not only the energy transitions potential impact on our most vulnerable. So those living in energy poverty areas are struggling with energy affordability, but also everybody who's looking to make improvements to their homes where they live in order to reduce costs and participate in the energy transition. That brings us to my next clip that I'd like to share with you, and that's a conversation I had with Sarah Grant. Sarah Grant's a good friend of mine who also happens to be an expert in her field, which is helping everyday Canadians on their journey to decarbonizing their homes so that they can contribute to Canada's energy transition. Looking at, what are the things you do in a home to decarbonize. How do you go about that? That process, Sarah and her company, Goldfinch energy are based out of Toronto, and I was really great to hear what she had to say about what it takes to decarbonize a home.   Sarah Grant  16:18 Okay, going from large to small so the largest source of emissions in a home is your space heating. Typically, the emissions are about the same as driving a sort of a mid to large sized car. You know, most people drive, on average, 15,000 kilometers a year. The emissions are going to be about the same so that's going to be the biggest one, if someone is looking and they're a little bit overwhelmed, and the best alternative is a heat pump. So these are they come in many different forms, but the most common, and I think the most common scenario for most homes, is if you have forced air, so ductwork and these kind of heat pumps can extract heat from the air outside. A lot of them can work up to minus 30 degrees. So even up to minus 30, they're able to grab latent heat in the air and pump it inside, and then it gets pumped around your house. The cool thing about them is that they can also work in reverse. So in the summer, they act just like an air conditioner. In fact, the technology is very much the same as an air conditioner, just that they work in reverse in the winter too, so they can also cool. So these are called Air source heat pumps. And yeah, if someone has forced air and they have a gas furnace or an air conditioner or both that need to be replaced, an air source heat pump is, a great option. A lot of the folks that we've worked with that have switched we talked about comfort, sort of, some of the side benefits, I would say, of a heat pump is they're typically quieter, if designed and sized and installed properly, they're quieter both the outside and the inside aspects of a heat pump, and the air from the vents is a lot more comfortable. So, we got a heat pump about three years ago, and the first winter we had it installed, my father-in-law came over for dinner one night and just stood in front of the vent, kind of like a cat basking in that warmth, and said, Oh my gosh, this is way more comfortable. It's not that dry, scorched air that a lot of people associate with, with four stairs. So that's, that's an air source heat pump. You can also, there are also ground source heat pumps, but for a lot of you know urban areas, these ground source heat pumps involve drilling into the ground, either horizontally or vertically, to extract heat from the ground. They, they, I have worked with a few homes in sort of more rural areas where it does make sense, but the costs associated with them are, are really high, and often there's not enough space in urban areas, so they're not quite as common. And I'd say, sort of, just to kind of close the conversation on, we'll conclude it on the on the heating side of things, if you do have another source of like heat, maybe it's maybe it's cast-iron radiators or baseboards, there are also heat pumps that can help you as well. So, with cast iron radiators, they're what's called air to water heat pumps. So, they'll the outdoor unit will look similar to someone who has forced air. So, it's an it's going to extract heat from the outside air, and it'll transfer it to water now that can then go through your cast iron radiators, or maybe have in floor heating or what have you. They're not as common, but the technology has existed for a long time in Europe, and there are more products and contractors that I'm working with that are becoming more comfortable with installing this technology. And last there are called ductless heat pumps. So if you don't have ductwork or cast iron radiators, or maybe have baseboards, or maybe there's a space where you know the ductwork just isn't sufficient, these ductless heat pumps can be installed. They can either go on the wall, on sort of these big white boxes. If you've been to Asia, you're probably familiar with them because they exist there, either in the form of heat pumps or or air conditioners, or you can have little floor mounted ones as well, which look a little bit slicker, I suppose, but they do cost a little bit more. So that's heating for hot water. There are kind of two main options if you want to get off of fossil fuels. Usually that's, yeah, um, for most of us, that's with the gas, but there could be propane as well. So, if you want to get off of fossil fuels with your hot water, the heat pump technology exists with hot water as well. Heat Pump hot water tanks is what they're called. Are actually confusingly, sometimes hybrid tanks, because they use heat pump technology, but then also have an electric coil so they operate. They can operate like a simple electric tank if, if needed. And they come with a little like Wi Fi app too. So, they are, like, four times more efficient than a gas hot water tank. So, you will save a little bit by switching to them. But the way they work is they'll extract heat from your basement, actually, so from your basement air and transfer that to the water. So I would say about half the people I work with end up going with them because they have a space where it makes sense. Maybe their basement is large and they can put it kind of in the corner and a big mechanical room or a workshop where they're not going to go into it. So if it, if that heat pump reduces the temperature by two degrees or so, it's not a big deal. But for me, my home is pretty tiny, and we're using every nook and cranny with five of us in it. So we opted for an electric tank and then paired it with a timer so that it only reheats the water overnight when electricity, if you're on time of use, is cheapest, and that's also when our Ontario grid is using the non-fossil fuel related forms of power production, like nuclear and water, so that can work, if you're really lucky, and you have an open an unfinished basement and a good space to install what's called a drain water heat recovery system. These are super cool, very simple technologies that can transfer the heat from any water that you've already used, like from your shower, and transfer it to the fresh water before that fresh water then goes into whatever heating mechanism you have, so they can work with anything, even if you have a gas hot water tank, a drain water heat recovery system is a good way to kind of preheat the water by extracting the heat from the hot water you've already used. A lot of hospitals I know in Toronto are starting to use these kinds of systems as well. So two main options, electric tank, you pump out water tank, and then those drain water heat recovery systems as well, and hot water. So, you know, I said you're heating, heating your house. It's usually about kind of 8080, or so percent of a home emission, home emissions hot water is, is around 15 to 20% just to give an idea of sort of how it fits into the relative picture. But ultimately, I wouldn't say, you know, do one over the other, unless you know, if you have, if you have a hot water tank that's broken, replace that with a with an electric tank or heat pump, hot water tank. Don't, don't just say, Oh, it's only 20% I shouldn't do that one. It's still worth it. Every little appliance that you can get off of fossil fuels is one step closer to then being able to disconnect from the gas utility or what have you, and sets you up for, ultimately, like, a little bit of savings too, because you're no longer paying for that delivery fee to have access to that fossil fuel in your house. So cooking, cooking is cooking is probably, to be honest, like, the most fun of all of these just because, you know, it impacts your daily life. If, like, hot water and heating and cooling are one of those things where you don't like, I don't think about my heat pump unless it's not working properly, which we haven't had an issue with. But, you know, it just sits there and it does, it does its thing, and I'm happy to have it off of fossil fuels. But for cooking, switching, for us switching. We switched from a gas stove to an induction stove about a year ago, and it's amazing. Like, I've got little kids, and I love that. I feel comfortable teaching them how to cook on this stove just because of the way the induction stove works. You're not the whole cooktop doesn't get heated up in the same way you accidentally leave, like a rag or a paper towel on the stove, not going to catch on fire. We did have a few of those incidences with our former gas stove and like, it's really quick. I know that there's a lot of stats and data about how quick you can heat up water, but it's one of those things that you don't believe it until you sort of experience it yourself. So yeah, so we got, we got a nice slick induction stove, because our gas stove was kind of reaching its end of life, and we are starting to smell some of the gas as well, even when it wasn't on, which I know is an issue, that's, that's, you know, something that's, that's hazardous for our help. And you know, there's a lot of research and evidence out there related to like respiratory issues and gas related cooking. So if you do have a gas stove and aren't able to afford to switch now, make sure you're using your exhaust, like your range hood properly, not just when you're using the top, but when you're cooking in the oven too. But yeah, if you're able to switch it out, then you can just really leave here knowing that you're not, you're not using some sort of like fossil fuel to cook with. And so your house is cleaner, and you're making the planet a bit cleaner as well.   Trevor Freeman  25:56 So with that clip, we can all kind of plan out our projects for 2025 and beyond, if we haven't already great to hear that from Sarah again, those are some real, tangible actions that we can take, or we can plan to take in the near future. So the conversation that you just heard with Sarah is really focused around homeowners, but in the context of a kind of an urban setting, you know, you've got access to contractors, you've got access to expertise, you've got access to supply chains. But there are a whole host of people, our neighbors, in our fellow country, people living in remote communities that are just not connected to a national grid or a provincial grid, or even to a natural gas grid. In some cases, I had a really great chat with Gemma Pinchin from Quest Canada, who is leading some research on how rural and remote communities, including many indigenous areas, can engage in the energy transition equitably and sustainably. And we talked about some of the challenges that those areas and communities face. So have a listen to this chat with Gemma Pinchin.   Gemma Pinchin  27:09 Through quest projects, particularly the net zero community accelerator, which works with communities to the end goal is to create community energy and emissions plan we saw, and also through policy work and those kinds of pieces, we saw that there was the net zero transition is sort of chugging along, but there's kind of been a gap. The Transition tends to focus more on the urban context. You know, urban population centers, the big cities, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, those kinds of places, and that we saw as leaving out a really big chunk of Canadians. I think the statistic off the top of my head is 1/5 of Canadians live in rural and remote places. So it's not a small statistic. So we wanted to make sure that, as the net zero transition was moving along and progressing, that this large group of Canadians weren't forgotten about, and the net zero transition is going to rely, and has been relying, on rural land, rural populations, you know, to house Renewable Energy for Food production as well as carbon sequestration. So leaving this big group of people out is just kind of inconceivable, I guess. And what quests saw was that this was happening. So we started this research project to sort of make sure that those voices were being heard and considered as Canada moves through the net zero transition. So I think there's this idea that a one size fits all solution for every community, and that solutions that work in urban centers will work in rural centers, and that's just not the case. For example, something obvious like transportation, and my literature review highlighted that within urban centers, the most sustainable option would obviously be public transport. But if you apply that same lens to a rural community. You know, cars are bad, and we shouldn't be using them. Rural communities, it's almost impossible to be sustainable in net zero because they don't have the public transport option. So in that context, looking at it with a different lens, looking at it with a rural lens, you would look at sort of like consolidating car trips or making sure that services like health care and groceries and you know, the things that we take for granted in urban centers, making sure those are close, like they're kept in communities, like a lot of services are kind of moving out of rural communities. And that doesn't necessarily seem like a net zero issue, but when people in those communities have to drive, like, three times as long to get to their doctor, that's a huge, you know, emissions issue, you know. And it's just it was an interesting look at the way that we're even myself, before I was doing this, I was like, well, cars are bad, like, you know, like, gas, cars aren't great for emissions, but the reality is, for rural communities, they need this transportation that there's no there's no other way for them to get around, and it would be incredibly isolating, and you can't function as a society if you're just stuck in your house, you know, so having that different lens, and looking at it in a different context, I think that's really, really important as we move rural communities through this net zero transition. Well, in those communities that aren't connected to, you know, natural gas or the electricity grid, diesel used to be their only option. You know, modern life, we need electricity power like we need to power modern life. You can't have a modern existence without some form of power. So, you know, diesel, they are completely reliant on diesel, the ones that aren't connected. I mean, it's frustrating because there's these communities do tend to be quite far away from the power grid infrastructure. So, it's usually considered economically non-viable to connect those remote communities to the provincial power grids, because these communities are also very small. So it's a small number of people that you would have to spend all this money for the infrastructure to get, you know, the power lines to them and Canada, Ontario, Canada, both of them are very big, so there's many communities that exist quite far away from power lines or existing grid infrastructure. So yeah,diesel just it's kind of been their only option for power to have a modern existence up until, I would say, Now, well, recently. So I think in terms of, I mean, for rural and indigenous communities, I definitely think we need more research like what I'm doing, I think these are voices that haven't necessarily been heard, and if we're going to have an energy transition, we need to include these voices. And I think the best way to do that is to sort of do research like mine and figure out what, what their needs are, and how we can, how we can progress to that next step, there's, I mean, there's some amazing thinking, specifically of like, indigenous organizations that are already doing great work in this, this space, like indigenous clean energy and the Center for Indigenous Environmental Research. So they're, they're already doing this, but just consolidating all of that, that, and having people governments actually listen, I think is really, really important. I think, yeah, those voices just need to be heard and listened to. Otherwise, we're not going to get anywhere. It'll be like you said, like we just putting in technology and then just kind of, like leaving it there, and that's not, it's not going to that's not going to work. We're not going to get anywhere with that, that sort of approach. So making sure you know, local context is understood and local voices are heard.   33:33 And finally, to wrap up this episode, I wanted to share a clip of a conversation that I had with two really brilliant folks from EY Global, Greg Guthridge and Nicholas Hancock. I talked to Greg and Nicholas about the fact that, in the end, we are all end users of energy. It doesn't matter what your role is in the energy transition. It doesn't matter where you live, where you work. We're all consumers of energy, and we all need to live in homes that have heat and cooling in some places of world. We work in buildings that are like that. We need to get around and charge our devices and cook and so we all have a stake in this. We all have a role in this. And my conversation with Greg and Nicholas really talked about their work in helping industry and businesses navigate this energy transition and inspire and influence action amongst all kinds of consumers, because not everybody approaches the energy transition in the same way. And it was really great to chat with Nicholas and Greg about how they see the approach to the energy transition with consumers.   Greg Guthridge  34:41 Yeah, Trevor, I'm glad you brought up the word customer, because we use that word as kind of an overarching term. And let me maybe, if you don't mind, I'll dive in a little bit more on that, because customer is actually, you know, I'll use it on occasion, but it's actually a bit of an old fashioned. And believe it or not, it's that we try to use the term consumer, or, even better, omisumer, when we talk about the participants in the energy experience moving forward. And we're picking these words carefully, because customer kind of implies a one way interaction. Consumer implies that you're dealing with a customer or a participant that's, that's two way that's engaging, you know, in a much more active capacity. And then you get into omnisumer, which is the, what we believe, really the consumer of the future. These are participants that are, you know, multi channel, Multi Product, multi provider, a many to many kind of experience. So you'll hear me use them all interchangeably. But really, what we're trying to convey is that, you know, the good old days of somebody at the end of the value chain just receiving a bill for our energy that they take for granted is disappearing. Now to your actual question, you know, around, you know, the different strata of consumers. We do think of it in terms of, there's residential customers, you know, the mass market, the people at home, and then we have a number of other sort of major categories that, that we think about. There's small and medium businesses, large, commercial and industrial. There's a category which we call mush, which is municipal and universities and schools and hospitals. And then there's a, you know, kind of new categories of consumers that are forming a peer to peer and prosumer, type of consumers that that are trading energy, you know, they've got, they might have electric vehicles or solar or storage, and they're not just consuming electricity for their own benefit. They're actually selling it back into the grid or to others, and, you know, becoming more of a business partner along the way. So the takeaway here is that what used to be a passive, one way customer experience is now leaning into a much more two way, engaged and much more complex consumer experience between the energy provider and their participants. Trevor, I'm going to start the response to this, and then I'm going to hand it over to Nicholas Hancock, who leads our research, to give a bit more of a some color commentary on how we structured our research, but to start up with we, we really, you know, make about four or five years ago, we started to really think about the supply and demand of the energy transition, and a lot of focus around the world is on the supply side, building the infrastructure, building in New, renewable and green and sustainable sources, getting all of the technology to get, you know, cleaner power from one place to another, from an engineering perspective, and what we really started to realize is that as part of the energy transition, if you think about it, we're trying to do a generation of change in just a couple of decades. And on the demand side of this equation, we've got a bunch of very complex consumers, consumers that you know interact and behave irrationally with different behaviors. Some will be very excited about the energy transition. Others will be very reticent, and everything in between. And so in order for the energy transition to accelerate and to achieve the benefits that we're all looking for, we need to find a way to engage the consumer in ways which, frankly, are going to really push the envelope with consumers. So we started our research program, and Nicholas Hancock, who's on, has been leading the charge. And I think Nick, if you don't mind, can you give us a quick overview on the global nature of the research and how we've approached it?   Nicholas Handcock  39:00 Yeah, absolutely. So we started our research program about three years ago, really trying to take a global view mixing regions that are both, some of them really leading out there on the front edges of the energy transition. So we've got countries, for example, like Sweden, that are, you know, kind of further down the path as well as, you know, North America, which is, I would say, a little bit more in the middle. And then we've got some countries that are maybe lagging or taking their own paths in the energy transition, we've included countries like China, Singapore. We included Indonesia last year. So really, a global view of what are consumers kind of thinking in terms of how they approach the energy transition, what sort of products and services are they interested in, and what are the values and preferences that they bring to it when it comes to their energy providers, but also a broader ecosystem of providers that we see emerging out there, you know, who are they really interested in turning to when it comes to advice, when it comes to learning about solutions, purchasing them, and even things like, for example, control over solutions in the home, which when it comes to energy flexibility in the future is really important. We've been exploring how to different consumers approach and feel about this. And so what we did is we developed a survey. We're entering our fourth year of doing that. Now we work with a third party to do those surveys online across the globe. So it is sort of an independent third party that helps us to perform those and then we take those results back and take a look at what we see. And to your point, Trevor around, sort of the voices of the transition we've been looking at, how do some of those different groups break out? What are the different values of different aspects of those consumers out there? Because even sitting around the dinner table, I'm sure everybody can feel we don't all have the same opinions when it comes to energy, and even more so, when it starts to come to things like changes to your home or changes to your vehicles. So that's really what we've been exploring for the last number of years.  You know, what we did is, having looked at all these different markets, we found some pretty interesting similarities and the percentages of the population that fit into these five categories. It varies quite significantly, market by market, country by country, geography by geography, but there is some there's a way for us to more simply think about a incredibly complex, fragmented, distributed customer base, residential, mass market customer base into what we think are really simply five different categories. And we the organization of these five categories. We've thought about them from a behavioral perspective, from a value from you know, what's their interests and how do they plan to engage? And sort of in sequence here, I'll talk about the five, and I'll put them in the order of from most active to least active. I'll describe each of these. And the key thing here to keep in mind is that there's no wrong place to be as a residential customer, and you can actually flip around. You can move from one place to another almost overnight. So it's quite a fluid approach here. But the first category is what we call the energy champions. They're the savvy customers. They're actually the customers that have been the first to move and the ones that we see in the news already, they're probably already using new energy products and services in their home. They might have solar on the roof. They could potentially have storage. They might already be using an electric vehicle. We make fun of this category a little bit. They're usually the ones that pre order their iPhone. They might already have a have a have an interest in the new Tesla truck or some other, you know, device. They're absolutely the innovators. They're the early movers, and they're interested in spending time researching. They're going to pay attention to where their energy source is coming from, and they're going to be quite active. So those are the energy champions, the next category is what we call the energy enthusiasts, and this is actually the one that that we have to pay the most attention to. They're the fast followers. They're the energy conscious category. And when they when they observe what the champions are doing, and when they get a bit more comfortable and they start to move, a actually will influence the whole market, and as the enthusiasts maybe slightly a little more cautious, but they're also, you know, the fast followers. So once they can see the value proposition, once they're convinced that the technologies and capabilities are for real, then they're going to move. They may not pre order their iPhone, but they're probably pretty close in terms of thinking about how they're going to advance into the energy market. The next category is the novice category, or the agnostics. And what's interesting about these this category is this segment of customers or consumers. They they're actually, you know, pretty passive. They can see the value proposition. They can see that there's, there's a lot of people taking interest in it. But for a number of different reasons, they're not moving. They're very novice, they're very they're very agnostic, and it's because they're starting to think about other things like, well, all right, I can see that I can save money, or I can do something that will improve the environment, but it's just going to take too much time, or I have other priorities or whatever. So as a as an industry, we need to find a way to kind of activate and excite. We need to make it as effortless and frictionless as possible for this category of consumers to move, and they will move, and they will do things, but they're just influenced by a whole lot of other variables that, that you know, that, that they believe are a higher priority. The fourth category is what we call the bystanders, or the skeptics, and they are the ones that are a little bit they're not, they're bit mistrusting, frankly, of the messaging around the energy transition, around sustainability or environmental and they're probably going to take a fairly skeptic approach to, is this for real? Is it really going to provide me benefit? Is it really going to, you know, advance my personal capabilities. And so what's interesting about this group is they're, they're actually very interested in new energy products and services, but for different reasons. So they're going to want, you know, more control. They're going to want, maybe, off grid capabilities. And so they they're actually as interested as the others, but the way you approach them is going to be very, very different. And the final category are the allies. And this is a, you know, energy is a household necessity, and this category is very dependent. There they might have, you know, income challenges. They might have other challenges that that that we have to look after. It is a critical household service that we provide, and we need to make sure that we look after, you know, the low income, the vulnerable, the medical dependencies that you find in the allies or the dependent category. So the range of consumers across these five will vary. We've got a great little quiz that you can take out there on ey.com or you can go out and answer some questions, and it'll tell you which kind of consumer you are today. But it's yeah, we see that most consumers will fit into one of these five categories and then move from there, depending on what's happening in their life experiences.   Trevor Freeman  46:49 Okay, well, there you have it. I hope that those clips give you a sense of some of the different aspects of the energy transition, what it is and how it impacts all of us. I really encourage you, if you haven't already listened to those, to go back and have a listen to those and other episodes from this year. I think it's been a great year of great conversations, and what I hope comes through, not just the conversations you've heard today, but all the episodes that we have is this idea that there is hope, and that may be kind of a funny thing to hear, but oftentimes, when we're hearing about climate change and the energy transition and the challenges that we face, it can be discouraging, but there's some really great and interesting things happening and some innovation that's happening. And as someone that works in this space, I think it's really important to be aware of the context that we work in, but also be optimistic and to focus on the really cool and great things that we're doing. And I think that that goes across most, if not all, of the guests that I've had on the show this year, really hearing their passion and their hope for what is to come. So have a listen. Take some hope from that as you relax over the holidays, as we round out this year. So as we round out this episode, I do want to give another thanks to all the guests that we've had on the show this year. We certainly couldn't do this without the fantastic and amazing people that we bring on to chat with. Goodness knows, you don't want to just hear me ramble on episode after episode. So really appreciate people taking the time to come and share their thoughts and insights with us. I also want to say a huge thank you to the team that is behind pulling these episodes together. This is a multi person contribution with folks across Hydro Ottawa and our partners that help us pull this together. And I want to especially call out Morgan Barnes for his help and really pulling the content and the feel and the texts together behind these episodes. It's me rambling here behind the microphone, but really Morgan and I work together to pull together what the theme and the thread of these episodes are so big. Thanks to Morgan for his thought leadership in this and his dedication and hard work and helping pull these things together. Morgan, you're the best. Okay, so with that, my team is always kind of after me to answer these rapid fire questions that you often hear at the end of episodes, but they also gave me an out because, because I don't intend to do that. So the out is what is one of my favorite holiday traditions. So I'm going to, I'm gonna pivot and pull that one as we go into the holiday season here. And I think I was reflecting on this, I think one of my favorite holiday traditions, at least in the last little while, as I've kind of built a family and have a growing family, is going and getting that Christmas tree. And a number of years ago now, we moved houses, and it's not a big house. It's a house in Ottawa here, but we have this small part of the back of our house that has a really high ceiling. And so as we were out the first year, we always go to one of those, cut your own cut your own tree farms and cut our tree down, and I had this idea that, Oh, we've got a really high ceiling, so we've got to get a really tall tree. And that kind of started a bit of a precedent now, where I can't go out and get just a little tree anymore. The kids want, well, I say the kids, it's probably more me, but the kids and I both want the that tall tree that kind of scrapes the ceiling as we put it up. So that's always fun trying to find that right tree, the perfect shape to cut it down, to haul it back to the car, and try not to pull too many muscles doing it. So I'd say that's one of my favorite holiday traditions, and then to sit in the house and have that nice, fresh smelling Christmas tree for at least a few weeks. So, that's my favorite holiday tradition. Thanks for joining us in 2024 we really appreciate you listening. We appreciate the conversations. As always, don't hesitate to reach out to us, Thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com Is our email address. We would love to hear from you, love to hear your ideas and thoughts on topics and guests. So there we are at the end of the year, and we look forward to connecting with you again in 2025 where we will be back with more episodes, more guests, more conversations about energy in the energy transition. Thanks so much for listening.  Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com  

Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re-Climate, shares strategies for engaging the public in climate action, highlighting the importance of addressing the 'movable middle'—those aware of climate change but hesitant to act. Nicholas Rivers, an Associate Professor at the University of Ottawa, explains the critical role of carbon pricing in Canada's climate policy, detailing how it incentivizes low-carbon choices while minimizing household burdens. Together, they discuss vital advancements in modernizing the electricity grid and the shift toward sustainable energy solutions.

Dive into the world of Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) and uncover their pivotal role in the energy transition. Discover how solar panels, batteries, and small-scale wind turbines are moving from the sidelines to the spotlight, reshaping our energy infrastructure. Learn how these innovations enable individuals to generate and store their own energy, reducing dependency on centralized power. The discussion highlights the potential for a greener, more efficient, and cost-effective energy future, making a case for a significant shift in our energy landscape.

Our daily lives are more and more connected online. This includes our utility grids. Jojo Maalouf, Hydro Ottawa’s Director of Cybersecurity and IT Infrastructure, joins thinkenergy to discuss the role of cybersecurity in the energy sector. From cybersecurity threats, like cyber warfare and ransom-seeking hacktivists, to the measures required to defend our energy systems. Plus, how AI both helps and complicates matters. Listen in to learn what’s driving change and the collaboration needed to protect the grid. Related links Ontario Cybersecurity Framework: https://www.oeb.ca/regulatory-rules-and-documents/rules-codes-and-requirements/ontario-cyber-security  Get Cyber Safe resources: https://www.getcybersafe.gc.ca/en  Jojo Maalouf on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jojo-maalouf-cism-cissp-0546b03/  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/  Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en  To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod   Transcript:   Trevor Freeman  00:07   Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrottawa.com Hi everyone, welcome back. It won't be a surprise to anyone listening that our energy systems, like much of the rest of our lives, are becoming more and more connected and more online than ever before. Let's just take a look at our own personal lives. We've got apps that can control multiple aspects of our homes. For example, for my phone, I can adjust temperature, set points and fan speed heating and cooling in my house, I can turn on or off lights, both inside and outside. I can look and see who just rang my doorbell, even if I'm in another city, and I can check and see where my vehicle is, whether it's charging or not. And I can even turn it on all from my phone. And I would consider myself like middle of the road in terms of how connected and online I am. There are even further examples of this in some of those ultra-connected homes. This is part of our fast paced and constant evolution towards invenience and using technology to find solutions to problems that we didn't always know existed, and maybe they didn't actually exist. We've all heard that term, the Internet of Things, referring to this ultra-connected world where it's not just people talking over the internet, but our devices and systems are talking as well. I was absolutely floored when I was doing some research on this podcast to find out that this term, the Internet of Things, was first used 25 years ago, in 1999 when I first wrote the text for this. I put a placeholder in to say, oh, it's been around for over 10 years. And then when I actually did my research, it's over 25 years. Think about how far we've come since that idea was thought of in 1999 how different life is today than 1999 our energy systems and our utility grids are undergoing a similar transition. I talked about this a little bit with Hydro Ottawa's Jenna Gillis in a previous episode about grid modernization. So go back and have a listen to that. If you haven't already, we are adding more and more data points to our grids, and that includes sensors, smart switches, fault detectors, smarter meters, etc., etc. Even for hydro Ottawa, a local distribution company with around 350,000 customers, we are talking about many times that number of smart devices in the coming years, all connected, all trading data between themselves and our central systems and the smart folks who run them now, there is a ton of upside to this transition, and that's why we're doing it. More data leads to better decision making, a better view of what's happening, whether that's during an outage or at times when the grid is heavily utilized. It lets us get more out of the equipment we have, react and adjust to the needs of our customers, and react and adjust to the needs of the grid. It will lead to faster restoration during outages, and sometimes that restoration will be automatic without having to roll a truck. It will allow us to better integrate distributed energy resources like small scale solar and storage and other things into our grid for the benefit of our customers and the grid. There is no question that this is a move in the right direction, and hydro Ottawa is leaning into this aspect of the energy transition to build a smarter grid for our customers. However, it does highlight something that has long been a priority for us, cyber security. With so many connected devices, with so much data out there, we need to be extremely vigilant and rigorous with our digital security. Cyber-attacks on utility infrastructure are not theoretical. In 2015 and 2016 attacks on the Ukrainian power grid resulted in large scale power outages in that country, as we increasingly rely on electricity for so many aspects of our lives, attacks like this, whether by nation states or bad actors seeking financial gain, can have devastating consequences. Luckily, this is something that has been a priority for us for many years, and as the threats become more sophisticated, so too do our strategies to protect our systems and our grid from those attacks. Joining me today to talk about this is Hydro Ottawa's director of cybersecurity and IT infrastructure. Jojo Maalouf, JoJo, welcome to the show.   Jojo Maalouf  04:46   Thanks for having me.   Trevor Freeman  04:47   All right, so Jojo, cyber security is a little bit of a buzzword that a lot of folks have probably heard in a bunch of different contexts. Help us unpack it a little bit. What do we actually mean when we talk about cybersecurity threats and cybersecurity prevention, I guess?   Jojo Maalouf  05:05   Very good question, right? So, I mean, let's kind of simplify things, so we obviously have these adversaries, right? And these adversaries are trying to get into organizations networks. We hear a lot of the sensitivity or the criticality of information, so they're trying to obtain that information. And, you know, can they look at potentially monetizing that? Really what we're kind of trying to do, or what cyber security is, is, if you think about it, we have these bad guys, these adversaries. They're trying to get into organizations they possess or introduce some sort of level of risk. What we are trying to do as people in cyber security is defend those organizations from those risks and those adversaries. So, in order for us to do that, we need to put together a program. We need to make sure we have the relevant controls in place, because, at the end of the day, what we're trying to do is mitigate that risk to an acceptable level where the business can run.   Trevor Freeman  06:07   Yeah, totally. And who are these threats coming from? Like, we hear a lot about state sponsored groups for profit, hackers. There's sort of that hacktivists, kind of ideologically driven group. Who are we worried about in the in the energy industry?   Jojo Maalouf  06:20   You know, it's very good question. I think, to be honest, you, I think we worry about all of them. I think from from our perspective, threats are threats. And obviously, depending on the magnitude of those threats and where they're coming from, they could potentially possess or introduce a different type of risk. But the reality is, they all introduce a level of risk. Yes, we are worried about state sponsored entities. You know, we've seen what's happened throughout the years. It started out in Stuxnet with Iran in 2010 we've seen what's happened with Ukraine in 2015 the end of day, what are we trying to protect? We're trying to ensure that a cyber-attack doesn't actually impact our ability to deliver power to our customers. What we are seeing now in the industry, obviously, is that adversaries are understanding that they can really monetize this, right? So, we're seeing the exponential growth of ransomware throughout the years. I remember back in 2016 when a major Canadian university was asked to pay a think approximately a $35,000 ransomware. Where we looked at that in comparison in 2024 where the average cost of a ransomware attack is just under $5 million. So, it's a billion dollar industry, right? And it's only growing. You know, I'd say the threats are coming everywhere, but you're definitely seeing the monetization aspect of it growing exponentially.   Trevor Freeman  07:51   Yeah. So, I guess from our perspective, it really doesn't matter what the motivation is. If someone's getting into our systems and sort of impacting our ability to do what we do doesn't matter what the motivation is. It's a problem for us, and we try and guard against it.   Jojo Maalouf  08:05   Correct. I think, I think people are very highly motivated now, whether it's for it's ransomware, whether it's state sponsored, I think entities, or I would say adversary, sorry, are definitely highly motivated. And it doesn't really change our approach. So, you know, the energy sector needs to make sure that they do what they can to protect the systems.   Trevor Freeman  08:23   Yeah, fair enough. So, we've talked in the past on the show, and in my intro, I talked about grid modernization, and this sort of evolution of our grid, and the technology on our grid to have more and more connected devices out in the field, and the amount of data that's flowing on our grid is increasing. Obviously, there are many benefits to this, but inherently that brings a degree of risk as well. Can you talk to us about the risk that their grid modernization brings, and sort of how we're thinking about that?   Jojo Maalouf  08:58   So, Trevor, I think you said it well when you said more and more devices are connected now. So really, what ends up happening every time we add a device that's connected, it increases the organization's risk profile. So ideally, what we want to be able to do is we want to manage exactly what that those entry points into potential organizations are. So, every time I add a device, I have to think that it increases that attack surface to a degree. So, I mean, you've talked about what grid modernization can do. There are many capabilities I think that's going to benefit organizations. But I think as this happens, we need to ensure that cybersecurity risks are managed to ensure that that risk profile is managed to an appropriate level.   Trevor Freeman  09:48   How prepared is the energy industry to respond to and to recover from a major cyber-attack, if one were to happen on the power grid?   Jojo Maalouf  09:57   Honestly, I think that the energy sector as well. Prepared as a critical infrastructure entity, the energy sector has the benefit of dealing a lot with government partners. So, I think what you want to do as an organization is you want to build that trust, that ecosystem of partners, whether it is through public and private relationships. But I'd say from a critical infrastructure perspective, there are very good relationships with the industry, very good relationships with government partners. I think testing organizations resiliency has been in play now for many, many years. But I think from a cyber perspective, I think it's something where organizations continue to be prepared, continue to do some of the appropriate testing, you know? And I'll be honest, I say it's, it's, you never want to be complacent, right? And I think what we've learned over the years is threats are evolving. Threats are changing. The industry is always going to be susceptible to attacks.   Trevor Freeman  11:00   Are we collaborating and working with other stakeholders? I mean, both at the sort of other utility level, you mentioned, governments and regulatory bodies, are we collaborating with those other entities? And sort of in line when it comes to cybersecurity?   Jojo Maalouf  11:15   There is a lot of collaboration that occurs within the industry, whether it's in Ontario, you'll see now that the regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, you know, there is the Ontario cybersecurity framework that has been in play now since around 2018 even at the national level there. Here are many different bodies where, you know cybersecurity, like critical infrastructure protection is paramount, as discussed regularly, and then obviously there's the government agency. So, there's a lot of collaboration that goes whether it's from the provincial, the National, and then the government side as well. And I mean, I think you need those relationships, right? You need those partnerships to help.   Trevor Freeman  12:02   Yeah, we're not we're not a lone utility kind of figuring out on our own. We're working with our partners and our peers to figure that out. The other kind of area of emerging technology that I want to talk about is, AI, artificial intelligence and sort of machine learning. Are we using those technologies? Or do you see us using those technologies in the future to sort of enhance the cyber security of our grid and our assets?   Jojo Maalouf  12:29   Yeah, I mean, I think obviously artificial intelligence, machine learning, seems to be the 2024 theme. The reality is, is a lot of technologies have already adopted, whether it's AI or machine learning, into their into their solutions. You know, I think the whole Gen AI aspect is growing, and it's something that I think is going to benefit everybody in the industry as well. The unfortunate thing is, is that I think adversaries are going to be able to use these technologies as well. You know, whether it's to paint a better picture of an organization, maybe to customize some attack patterns, but I think it's something where we have to embrace the technology. We have to use it in our, I would say, in our toolkit, but we're very much cognizant of the fact is that adversaries are going to be using these, these tool sets as well to potentially target organizations within the energy sector.   Trevor Freeman  13:33   And are there specific things that you know, speaking as the local distribution company, specific things that our customers can do or should be aware of? What's the role of our customer when it comes to cybersecurity?   Jojo Maalouf  13:46   It's a very good question. I mean, from a from a customer's perspective, I think customers need to realize the importance of their information. So, I mean, the reality now is a lot of adversaries are targeting people directly because they want their information. Their information. Their information is valuable. So, I think as a customer, what they want to make sure they do is that they do what they can to protect their information. So, some very simple steps that they can do make sure you have a complex password that only you know, that's not easily guessable. The other thing is, you don't want to use that password across multiple systems. So, what's the best way for you to be able to manage all your passwords? Invest in a password manager. There are free solutions out there. There are other really good solutions that are at a fraction of a cost as well as that password. What you want to make sure you do is you have multi factor authentication attached to it. What that really means is it's a second level of authentication that's going to challenge you to make sure you are who you say you are. It could just be an application that's installed on your phone. Think those are really some really good ways that you know a customer can use to protect themselves. I think even investing in credit monitoring is really good because. Is the last thing you want to do is an adversary to target you, steal your information, then all of a sudden, are starting to open up accounts in your name, right? So credit monitoring is another really important one. So, I mean, I think those are some really basic ones, but I think that they can go a long way to protecting a customer from threats. There are some really good online resources that they can use. Public Safety Canada has their get cyber safe website that provides a lot of information for, you know, everyday residential people or customers, sorry, steps that they can take to protect themselves.   Trevor Freeman  15:33   And for our listeners that kind of are thinking like, Oh, I feel like I've heard that before. I think you're right. You have it is those basic steps that really can protect us. And just so that everybody knows this is a focus of us internally as well, all employees of Hydro Ottawa also have a focus on what can we as employees do in order to make sure we're protecting our systems, we're protecting our data, and all the things that JoJo mentioned when it comes to password integrity, conscious of protecting our data. We're focused on that on a day-to-day basis as well. Jojo, thanks very much for taking the time to talk us through this. It's something that is maybe a bit adjacent to the energy transition, but so important as we increasingly digitize our grid, digitize our systems, as I mentioned, add more data points. We can't sort of leave cybersecurity behind. So, I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today, as our listeners know, and as you know, we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests. So I will jump right into those. Jojo, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?   Jojo Maalouf 16:39   Yeah, good question. I'll give you two books, especially within the context of cybersecurity. You know, we did briefly mention Stuxnet. A really good book is by Kim Zetter. It's called Zero Day, and it basically depicts what happened with Stuxnet. Really informative. It's actually really good read. It's not necessarily technical, but just goes to show kind of how cyber warfare was actually built. Another really good one is from Andy Greenberg. It's called sandworm, a new era of cyber war in the hunt for the Kremlin's most dangerous hackers. Another really good read as well. So, I think those are two books, I would say, in the cybersecurity context, that I think are really good reads.   Trevor Freeman  17:29   Nice. Same question. But for a movie or a show, is there a movie or show that you think everyone should have a look at?   Jojo Maalouf  17:36   I'm actually really into Yellowstone these days, right? So, I'm gonna give that props.   Trevor Freeman  17:41   Nice. That's a good one. If someone offered you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Jojo Maalouf  17:48   Good question, I think right now where I am, I'd probably go anywhere, either in the Alps or in the Dolomites, to ski.   Trevor Freeman  17:56   That's awesome. And our last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you are particularly excited about?   Jojo Maalouf  18:04   To be honest with you, I What really interests me and what I'm really excited about is, think the evolution in change into we are now a technology company, And I think what we're where the energy sector is grow is, is moving towards, is really exciting. You know, I think over the years, it's been a very siloed approach to the way services are driven or given where I find now, its very technology focused, right? And I think that's very exciting times.   Trevor Freeman  18:39   Very cool. Well, JoJo, I really appreciate your time today, and you sharing your insight with us, and thanks for coming on the show.   Jojo Maalouf  18:46   Thank you, Trevor, it's great being here.   Trevor Freeman  18:50   Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at think energy@Hydroottawa.com.  

Dive into the complexities of Canada’s energy transition, where cleaner energy sources are on the rise. Explore the challenges of shifting from fossil fuels and the urgency to support affected communities. Discover how equity and inclusiveness play essential roles in navigating this change. Unpack the critical economic, environmental, and social factors driving the transition, and learn about the policies and investments needed for affordable renewable energy solutions.

Gemma Pinchin, Senior Lead of Research and Projects at QUEST Canada, focuses on net-zero action in rural communities. She discusses the unique energy challenges these areas face, like reliance on diesel, and the importance of tailored energy solutions. Gemma emphasizes empowering Indigenous voices in renewable energy planning, advocating for collaboration that respects local knowledge. The conversation also touches on successful initiatives, the need for equitable funding, and the role of local leaders in driving sustainable climate action.

Who is impacted by energy? We all are. Regardless of our roles, whether we work in the industry or not, we all use energy in some form or another. And we use it everyday. So, when it comes to energy transition, industry leaders must consider the end user. In episode 142 of thinkenergy, Greg Guthridge and Nicholas Handcock of EY Global share how stakeholders and utilities can better understand the consumer energy experience—and, ultimately, how to develop more informed strategies to the energy transition. Related links   EY Global: https://www.ey.com/en_gl  EY Global ecoEnergy Profile quiz: https://www.ey.com/en_gl/ecoenergy-profile  EY Global on X: https://twitter.com/EYnews  EY Global on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ernstyoung  Greg Guthridge on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregguthridge/  Nicholas Handcock on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholashandcock/  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/  Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript: Music. Hi. Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. Something I try to do on this show is to make sure that we're looking at the energy transition from a number of different perspectives. So, we obviously touch on the technologies that will be part of that transition, whether that's heat pumps or EVs or some of the grid technology that utilities like hydro Ottawa are beginning to roll out to modernize our grid. We also look at the overall governance and policy structure that guides our you know, societal energy decisions, how we choose to go about using energy, making energy, etc., in our society, the role of the various stakeholders on the grid gets touched on understanding kind of who the players are. There's a bit of an education piece here of knowing who all the complex players are in this, in this kind of system. And one thing that we've touched on before that I think is really important to keep bringing to the forefront is the end users of energy. And frankly, that's all of us, no matter what other roles in the transition we might play. We're all end users. We all need to heat our homes and workplaces. We all need to move around in some manner. We need lights, we need to cook, we need to charge our devices. And we don't really want to have to worry about those things. We want that to be smooth and easy and how we as end users of energy are experiencing and interacting with and in some cases, taking a leadership role in the energy transition. That's really important, because we need all those things, and we want all those things to be smooth. It's important for our utility companies to understand and to take that into account when we're planning our and I'm speaking as a member of utility. Now, when we're planning our strategies and programs and products, we need to take into account, how does this impact our end users of energy? How are they going to experience this? So, my talk today is with Greg Guthridge and Nicholas Hancock of EY global. Greg is EY Global's powering utilities customer experience transformation leader and Nicholas leads EY research program that's called navigating the energy transition. Both of them ultimately help various stakeholders, including utilities, better understand consumer values, their preferences and their aspirations for their energy experience, which ideally will lead to more informed strategies and approaches to the energy transition for those decision makers, whether that's at the policy or the regulatory or the kind of utility implementation level. So, I'm really excited to talk to Greg and Nicholas today and hear their insight into the work that they've been doing. Greg and Nicholas, welcome to the show. Thanks, Trevor, great to be here. Thanks for the invitation to share our perspectives today. Sure. So, I always like to start getting to know a little bit from our guests of how they got into the energy space. And Greg not to kind of put you on the spot or embarrass you, but you've been named as one of consulting magazine's 25 consultants for excellence in energy, which is a rather lofty sounding title. I understand. You have several patents in the US for energy efficiency and demand management analytics. Tell us a little bit about your journey and how you came to be in the energy space. Greg Guthridge  04:00 Yeah. Trevor, it was really interesting my journey. You know, it's, you can think of it a little bit as an accidental process here. I didn't leave college thinking that I would be a consumer person in the energy space. In fact, I also, I thought for a long time that utilities were kind of a boring and dusty part of the energy ecosystem. I wanted to be in marketing or in manufacturing, or someplace, you know, considerably more sexy. But what's interesting is, you know, what an amazing journey into what I believe is kind of the center of the universe. Now, you know, energy is everything for us, and I can't think of a more interesting and dynamic place to be at the moment as we think about how we're going to transition to a cleaner, safer, more secure energy system in the future. So, it's been, it's been fascinating to kind of make my way down this path, but I'm super happy to be right at the center of what I think is one of the most, most critical elements of our society and our economy moving forward. Trevor Freeman  04:00 Absolutely and my goodness, if, if I ever meet that person who you know 20, 30, years into their career, is doing what they thought they would do at the end of college or university, I feel like I'd strike a gold mine. But now let's pivot over to EY global, and the work that EY does in the energy sector, specifically the role when it comes to the energy transition, tell us a little bit about what EY is doing in that space. Greg Guthridge  05:39 Oh, Trevor, it's fascinating. EY has really taken a very progressive approach to helping our clients, a broad swath of clients, from industry to manufacturing to energy to utilities, you name it, across the spectrum. Really imagine you know how their capabilities; their value propositions and their customer experience need to evolve. Of course, I I represent the customer element of the EY practice in utilities and in resources, but we have experts that that can help with everything from infrastructure to generation to renewables, to audit and tax and financial services, and you name it. In the customer space, we're really laser focused on helping our clients think about and imagining. You know that if you think about it, the typical utility to date is, is the is the product of over 100 years’ worth of development. Most utilities were formed in the Edison era, many, many years ago, and they have a big challenge on their hands. They've got to find a way to kind of evolve not only their business and operating models, but also their regulatory and their customer experiences to really form fit to the future, and that EY is right at the center of offering a whole gamut of different capabilities across the spectrum, across their value proposition, to help them through that, that transition. Trevor Freeman  07:15 Now you use the word customer, I assume you're talking about that end user of energy, that end user, of, you know, electricity, in the context of our conversation today is, do you differentiate between sort of that residential user, someone in their home and powering their appliances, versus, you know, medium, commercial business, versus those large, mammoth users at the data center level? Greg Guthridge  07:39 Yeah, Trevor, I'm glad you brought up the word customer, because we use that word as kind of an overarching term. And let me maybe, if you don't mind, I'll, I'll dive in a little bit more on that, because customer is, is actually, you know, I'll use it on occasion, but it's actually a bit of an old-fashioned term, believe it or not, it's, we try to use the term consumer, or, even better, omni-Sumer, when we talk about the participants in the energy experience moving forward, and we're picking these words carefully, because customer kind of implies a one-way interaction. Consumer implies that you're dealing with a customer or a participant that's two way that's engaging, you know, in a much more active capacity. And then you get into omni-Sumer, which is the what we believe, really the consumer of the future. These are participants that are, you know, multi-channel, Multi Product, multi provider, a many to many kinds of experience. So, you'll hear me use them all interchangeably, but really, what we're trying to convey is that, you know, the good old days of somebody at the end of the value chain just receiving a bill for our energy that they take for granted is disappearing. Now, to your actual question, you know, around, you know, the different strata of consumers. We do think of it in terms of, there's residential customers, you know, the mass market, the people at home, and then we have a number of other sorts of major categories that that we think about. There are small and medium businesses, large, commercial and industrial. There's a category which we call mush, which is municipal and universities and schools and hospitals. And then there's a, you know, kind of new categories of consumers that are forming peer to peer, and prosumer, type of consumers that that are trading energy, you know, you know, they've got, they might have electric vehicles or solar or storage, and they're not just consuming electricity for their own benefit, they're actually selling it back into the grid or to others and becoming more of a business partner along the way. So, the takeaway here is that what used to be a passive one way. Customer experience is now leaning into a much more two way engaged and much more complex consumer experience between the energy provider and their and their participants. Trevor Freeman  10:14 Yeah, and I don't want to paint the picture that this is unique to the energy space or the utility space, because so many different industries we hear about it all the time are being disrupted by changing technology, changing customer preferences. But I think it's really true in the utility space that as you described, the customer, or the consumer of even 20, 30, years ago, doesn't really exist anymore. Is fast becoming kind of out of date, and that whole landscape is changing drastically as we move forward. And so, all the things that we're going to talk about next are kind of in the context of we're looking forward, and we don't necessarily have a great model in the past to tell us, what is that relationship with a customer going to be 20 30, years down the road, because it's changing so rapidly, Greg Guthridge  11:02 you betcha, Trevor Freeman  11:04 just to throw one more one more variable at you, it's not just the different types of customers that a company like EY global is dealing with, because you work across the globe in many different jurisdictions, you're also dealing with different regional challenges when it comes to the energy transition. You know, energy typically is a at least partially or fully regulated sector. You're dealing with different regulatory bodies, different governments. Tell us how you approach that difference. And so obviously, as our listeners know, I'm sitting here in Ontario. Has got a pretty complex regulatory environment. How do you tailor your services or your advice to your customers or to your clients in those different areas? Greg Guthridge  11:51 Yeah, fascinating question, Trevor, and you're absolutely right. The regulatory models, the products and services, even the consumer bases, they vary dramatically. You know, market by market, country by country, region by region. At EY, we take a kind of a two-pronged approach. The first is that, you know, there's more similarities than there are differences. When you kind of peel back the curtain and you look at the basics, and the basics are, we have to find a way to provide to help our utility clients provide the most effective, affordable and safe and secure, reliable energy. And from a consumer perspective, that really leans in on a couple of key pillars that don't vary anywhere that affordability, value based, cost effectiveness of operations, revenue growth and along the way. Let's make this as engaging as possible for consumers and employees, so the basic building blocks actually don't vary that much around the world. What does vary is whether you're regulated or not your products and services vast differences in the kinds of products and services that really resonate with consumers. And that doesn't just go for regional differences. It also goes for just variations in demographics and other, you know, social kind of variations that you see with consumers. And in that case, EY takes a very, you know, client centric approach. So, we take our building blocks that we believe are fairly universal, and then how we implement those in a particular region or with a particular utility, that becomes a much more unique and custom process, where we work really closely with the client to be as centric as possible in in thinking about for this particular utility in this particular market, what's going to make the best sense and what's your priority? So, it's a bit of a combination of trying to use standard building blocks, but then apply it in the most customized process imaginable. Trevor Freeman  14:06 Yeah, and then, just speaking from experience, working at the sort of, you know, distribution utility level, right down, I guess you can say on the ground, with the customers. It's then our challenge at the utility to take that insight, to take that learning and figure out how to apply it or how to use it to support our specific customers, consumers, individually. So great, great to break it out like that. Okay, I want to ask you about EY's voices of the energy consumers initiative, and this is some research that you did and trying to help us understand who is out there engaging with energy, and what are they thinking. Trying to profile some of these individuals a little bit. It reminds me of that technology adoption curve that folks may be familiar with, and able to identify where they fall on that curve. So. Tell us about or give us an overview of that, of that initiative, and what you're trying to understand from that. Greg Guthridge  15:07 Trevor, I'm going to start the response to this, and then I'm going to hand it over to Nicholas Hancock, who leads our research. To give a bit more of some color commentary on how we structured our research. But to start up with we really about four or five years ago, we started to really think about the supply and demand of the energy transition. And a lot of focus around the world is on the supply side, building the infrastructure, building in new renewable and green and sustainable sources, getting all of the technology to get cleaner power from one place to another, from an engineering perspective. And what we really started to realize is that as part of the energy transition, if you think about it, we're trying to do a generation of change in just a couple of decades. And on the demand side of this equation, we've got a bunch of very complex consumers, consumers that you know interact and behave irrationally with different behaviors. Some will be very excited about the energy transition. Others will be very reticent, and everything in between, and so in order for the energy transition to accelerate and to achieve the benefits that we're all looking for, we need to find a way to engage the consumer in ways which, frankly, are going to really push the envelope with consumers. So we started our research program, and Nicholas Hancock, who's on, uh, has been leading the charge. And I think Nick, if you don't mind, can you give us a quick overview on the global nature of the research and how we've approached it? Nicholas Handcock  16:52 Yeah, absolutely. So we started our research program about three years ago, really trying to take a global view, mixing regions that are both, some of them really leading out there on the front edges of the energy transition. So, we've got countries, for example, like Sweden, that are, you know, kind of further down the path as well as, you know, North America, which is, I would say, a little bit more in the middle. And then we've got some countries that are maybe lagging or taking their own paths in the energy transition. We've included countries like China, Singapore. We included Indonesia last year. So really a global view of what are consumers kind of thinking in terms of how they approach the energy transition, what sort of products and services are they interested in, and what are the values and preferences that they bring to it when it comes to their energy providers, but also a broader ecosystem of providers that we see emerging out there, who are they really interested in turning to when it comes to advice, when it comes to learning about solutions, purchasing them, and even things like, for example, control over solutions in the home, which, when it comes to, you know, energy, flexibility in the future is really important. We've been exploring how do different consumers approach and feel about this. And so, what we did is we, develop a survey, we're entering our fourth year of doing that. Now we work with a third party to do those surveys online across the globe. So, it is sort of an independent third party that helps us to perform those and then we take those results back and take a look at what we see. And to your point, Trevor around, sort of the voices of the transition we've been looking at, how do some of those different groups break out? What are the different values of different aspects of those consumers out there? Because even sitting around the dinner table, I'm sure everybody can feel we don't all have the same opinions when it comes to energy, and even more so when it starts to come to things like changes to your home or changes to your vehicles. So that's really what we've been exploring for the last number of years. Trevor Freeman  18:41 Yeah, great. So, you've identified five different, let's call them archetypes or types, you know, profiles, if you will. You call them your eco energy profiles. Can you walk us through each of the five and give us a little summary of you know who that person is, or who that individual is that fits within that profile? Greg Guthridge  19:01 Sure. Trevor. You know what we did is, having looked at all these different markets, we found some pretty interesting similarities, and the percentages of the population that fit into these five categories, it varies quite significantly, market by market, country by country, geography by geography, but there is some there's a way for us to more simply think about a incredibly complex, fragmented, distributed customer base, residential mass market customer base, into what we think are really simply five different categories. And we the organization of these five categories. We've thought about them from a behavioral perspective, from a value from you know, what's their interests, and how do they plan to engage? And sort of in sequence here, I'll talk about the five, and I'll put them in the order of from most active to least active.  I'll describe each of these. And the key thing here to keep in mind is that there's no wrong place to be as a residential customer. And you can actually flip around. You can move from one place to another almost overnight. So, it's quite a fluid approach here. But the first category is what we call the energy champions. They're the savvy customers. They're actually the customers that have been the first to move and the ones that we see in the news already. They're probably already using new energy products and services in their home. They might have solar on the roof. They could potentially have storage. They might already be using an electric vehicle. We make fun of this category a little bit. They're usually the ones that pre order their iPhone. They might already have a have a have an interest in the new Tesla truck or some other you know, device. They're absolutely the innovators. They're the early movers, and they're interested in spending time researching. They're going to pay attention to where their energy source is coming from, and they're going to be quite active. So those are the energy champions. The next category is what we call the energy enthusiasts, and this is actually the one that that we have to pay the most attention to. They're the fast followers. They're the energy conscious category. And when they when they observe what the champions are doing, and when they get a bit more comfortable and they start to move, they actually will influence the whole market. And as the enthusiasts maybe slightly a little more cautious, but they're also the fast followers, so once they can see the value proposition, once they're convinced that the technologies and capabilities are for real, then they're going to move. They may not pre order their iPhone, but they're probably pretty close in terms of thinking about how they're going to advance into the energy market. The next category is the novice category, or the agnostics. And what's interesting about these this category is this segment of customers or consumers. They they're actually, you know, pretty passive. They can see the value proposition. They can see that there's, there's a lot of people taking interest in it, but for a number of different reasons, they're not moving. They're very novice, they're very they're very agnostic, and it's because they're starting to think about other things, like, well, all right, I can see that I can save money, or I can do something that will improve the environment, but it's just going to take too much time, or I have other priorities or whatever. So as a as an industry, we need to find a way to kind of activate and excite. We need to make it as effortless and frictionless as possible for this category of consumers to move, and they will move, and they will do things, but they're, they're just influenced by a whole lot of other variables that, that you know, that that they believe, are a higher priority. The fourth category is what we call the bystanders, or the skeptics, and they are the ones that are a little bit they're not, they're a bit mistrusting, frankly, of the messaging around the energy transition, around sustainability or environmental and they're probably going to take a fairly skeptic approach to is this for real? Is it really going to provide me benefit? Is it really going to, you know, advance my personal capabilities? And so, what's interesting about this group is they're, they're actually very interested in new energy products and services, but for different reasons. So, they're going to want, you know, more control. They're going to want, maybe, off grid capabilities. And so, they, they're actually as interested as the others, but the way you approach them is going to be very, very different. And the final category are the allies. And this is a, you know, energy is a household necessity. And this category is very dependent. There they might have, you know, income challenges. They might have other challenges that that that we have to look after. It is a critical household service that we provide, and we need to make sure that we look after, you know, the low income, the vulnerable, the medical dependencies that you find in the allies or the dependent category. So, the range of consumers across these five will vary. We've got a great little quiz that you can take out there on ey.com or you can go out and answer some questions, and it'll tell you which kind of consumer you are today. But it's yeah, we see that most consumers will fit into one of these five categories and then move from there, depending on what's happening in their life. Experiences. Trevor Freeman  25:02 I agree. I'm glad you brought up that quiz, because I know I spent a bit of time going through it and just reading the descriptions. I was pretty sure I knew where I fit in that, and the quiz kind of made me realize, yeah, it can change from time to time. It can change from answer to answer, and depending on what it is. So, it's interesting. And for our listeners, if you have a chance, check it out. You can just, I don't know, Google EY eco energy profiles, and it'll come up, I'm sure. Thanks for explaining that, Greg. And my next question is, why? Why does it help us to have these profiles in mind as we approach the energy transition as the utility industry, as energy providers out there in the sector? Greg Guthridge  25:44 Oh, good question. Trevor, yeah. What's the point of all of this? Why? What are we trying to do? And here's the thing, we can't approach the consumer base as one homogenous group of people. That's insane, if you think about it. No other industry would do that there that you have, we have to target our messaging, our value propositions, even our customer interaction channels, so that we can appeal to the lifestyles and the interests and the behaviors and the overall approach for each of these different customers. So, a spray and pray one size all approach won't work. What we need to do instead is be as tailored as we can. And what we're suggesting is we don't have to we don't have to go crazy here. We don't have to have hundreds and hundreds of different kinds of customer segments. We can really gravitate around five that really cover 80% of the customer base very, very well, and this will help the utility in many ways. It will help them think about and target their programs, their products, their services, so that they're not wasting a lot of time and effort promoting to one customer base or one segment something that just isn't going to resonate, they can start to vary their propositions and their interactions for products, programs and services accordingly. We think it'll help save money, and it will help the effectiveness of the targeting with these customer bases in a much more thoughtful manner. Trevor Freeman  27:21 Great during your research. Did anything really jump out at you as notable or surprising, you know, unexpected when it comes to those, those beliefs or that, those values that people hold when it comes to energy? Did anything really stick out, as you know, worth noting? Greg Guthridge  27:39 Great question, and there's a couple of observations that we've had in the research that that sort of drift to the top fairly quickly. The first is that sustainability and environmental messaging only really applies to a third of consumers. The majority of consumers are actually much more motivated by other creature comforts when they're when they're buying products and services. And so, while it's an it's important for us to, for us, for the industry, to share environmental and sustainable products and services and the benefits of those we also need to augment that with other buyer values that the actually the majority of customers still prioritize. And this is, you know, convenience, comfort, control, price, affordability, reliability, those are the bedrocks. And what we found is just leading, just leading with a sustainable message probably is limiting the appeal of the products and services. And so, if we can make sure that we always really kind of tailor our messaging with a broad swath of buyer values, we're probably going to appeal to more consumers. So that's the first thing that we found relatively surprising, and it doesn't, it's not actually surprising, if you think about it, because, you know, environmental and sustainable messages is really kind of an intangible benefit for most people. It's and what we need to do is really find ways to be much more concrete and tangible and real around benefits that customers can touch and feel and smell immediately in that as they make their investments in their energy experience. That's the first thing. The second is that when we look at the consumer base, we need to remind ourselves that the old guard, the you know, the Generation X and the generation Ys are now being replaced with the millennials and generation zeds, and they want something different from their energy provider. They're not particularly in the space where they're going to benefit from the same things that the generations previous to them. And they're going to want more subscription based pre pavement pay as you go, kind of capabilities. They're going to be much more digital in their interactions. And they're, you know, we need to make sure that we're designing the energy experience of the future for the future, and not for the traditional segments of or, you know, age stratification that we've got in the past. So, we need to hand the baton over to the millennials and the generations that who will ultimately decide the success of the energy transition. Trevor Freeman  30:33 Yeah, I think it really does highlight the need, you know, both of those kinds of last two explanations, the need for us and the utility sector to really be empathetic to who our customers are and to what they're thinking and how they approach things. And we've talked before on this show about not just holding our own values and approaching things with our own values, but understanding what our customers values are and kind of meeting them where they're at. And I think your research just highlights the importance of that as well. You also wrote an article where you noted that most energy consumers kind of feel like they're already doing everything they can to shift their behaviors and habits when it comes to energy consumption. And that's not to say that they don't recognize there's more that can be done, but they feel like they are giving it their all. You know, they can't afford to do more, or they don't have the time to do more that they're kind of maxed out. You know, 70% of, I think, respondents to your to your survey, said that they're not willing to spend any more time or money to do more. And you've come up with these three A's of energy, and I'd like you to talk us through what those three A's are? Greg Guthridge  31:43 Sure. Trevor, yeah, definitely. We it's consumers are telling us that. You know, based on their current environment, their current economics, their household experience, that they're pretty much doing everything they can. If you take that eco score, you'll find out pretty quickly that there's all kinds of things that we're expecting consumers to do. Consumers really do. Need to change their lifestyle. Businesses need to change their business practices in ways that are really going to push the envelope beyond most people's comfort zone. So we've got a bit of a challenge here, which is the research is clear. Consumers are saying we're already doing everything we can, and we can see that there's all kinds of things that that we still need to do up and down the value chain. I'm going to hand this back over to Nicholas to give us a little bit more of an overview of the three A's and how we use the three A's and thinking about how we're going to appeal to consumers in a much more thoughtful way. So over to you. Nicholas, Nicholas Handcock  32:45 Thanks, Greg. Yeah, the three A's is something that is really what's the foundation of the energy experience to really bring along everybody. And I think one of the key ones we mentioned a little bit here is affordability, and it's come up in our survey. Is increasingly important in the last couple of years, as we've seen practically across the globe. Prices of everything have gone up, but at prices of energy have also gone up, and we see a lot of consumers saying that they're feeling quite stretched when it comes to their home bills and their energy bills. And in fact, most people say they can't even absorb a 10% increase in their energy costs. And so affordability is kind of on edge and on top of people's minds. But then we also see consumers really interested in things like prepaid energy or more subscription based energy type services. So I think you know, when it comes to affordability, we're not always able to lower the prices that there is a fact that energy requires an investment, but there are maybe more innovative and creative ways that we can work with consumers to help them manage that affordability. And that's one of the key points, is, how do we think about that in new and different ways and get more creative and work with our regulators to really to do that? The second piece of the second A is access. And, you know, access to the products and services, access to the benefits of the energy transition, have been maybe rather narrow. To date, there's been a smaller group of folks who have been able to afford an electric vehicle or afford to put solar or battery storage on their homes or install a heat pump, and start to see some of the savings. And what we see is a lot of consumers are starting to say that they're feeling a bit left behind by the solutions that are out there today in the energy transition. So when it comes to access, there's an idea of kind of equity, and how do we make this a bit more equitable and have solutions available to all? And again, I think it requires a bit more creativity. Some of some things like community solar or even community wind farms that we see popping up in the UK, are interesting solutions to help more people come along, and then you've got a lot of subsidies or rebates and things available, but not everybody knows about those so there's a role to play to help educate consumers, make sure they're aware of it, but also just make it an easy experience for them to access those things, because we see that that can often be a challenging experience. And then the final one, Greg, you mentioned appeal. That's our final A which is, how do we actually these different kinds of consumers out there that we've. On the residential side, but we've also got small, medium businesses, which are very diverse across different sectors, and then on the commercial, industrial side, different types of companies looking for really different kinds of solutions to achieve their goals. And how do we actually appeal to all of these different organizations and customers? And you know what it is that's important, is that, and you said it, Trevor, how do we appeal to the values that they've got to really what they're looking for in terms of outcomes, and it's going to be different for everybody. So it requires a much more targeted and tailored approach to thinking about consumers and that empathy to really understand what's important to them, what's important to their business, and what's important to kind of the bottom line for those large business customers as well, and make it really you know, appealing energy can be fun. We see it in some other markets that you know, for example, power shop in New Zealand's always one of my favorites. They're really a fun brand that's all about prepay energy and a digital customer experience with really fun social media. How do we start to make it fun, for example, for consumers who do want to engage, and how do we make it just dead simple and set and forget for consumers that want it that way as well. So that's really the three A's that we see as the foundation of this future energy experience. Trevor Freeman  36:07 Thanks for that, Nicholas, I appreciate it, and I think that it kind of leads into the next question that I have. You've already addressed it a little bit, but you also talk about how energy providers are really good at investing in technology. We're good at knowing kind of, let's call it the nuts and bolts, or the poles and wires of energy. We know how to get those electrons, in the case of electricity, out to our consumers. And as we look at the energy transition, there's almost this, like knee jerk reaction to say, Yeah, okay, well, more poles, more wires, more transformers. But there's this whole human element of the energy transition that also needs attention and needs to be invested in. Can you expand a little bit on that human element, and how utilities and energy stakeholders can kind of lean into that to help address some of these challenges? Greg Guthridge  37:00 Oh, Trevor, great question. And you know, if you think about it, energy is, is it's taken for granted, for by most people, it's, it's, it's just there. And when it's not there, you become incredibly irrational. So you switch from being rational to irrational in record time at the very moment, but your power's out. And there is another interesting element to energy it. If you think about if you look at customer interactions, 70% of customer interactions are actually negative with their utility. And it's not, it's not the utility's fault. Usually, it's just a negative experience. My power is out. I can't pay my bill. I'm moving house, which is one of the top 10 most stressful events in people's lives. All of these thing’s kind of add up to, you know, a negative and irrational interaction around energy. It's when it's on and it's working and it's affordable, great, no problem. But when anything goes wrong, you see consumers kind of switch to being quite irrational, very, very quickly. And what's interesting is, if you think about the customer experience, and I don't you know, historically, it's we've designed this, you know, with engineers and financiers involved in the process. And it's, it is, it's very methodical, and it's, it's very logical, but is it really suited for irrational consumer behavior? Maybe, maybe not, especially when we start to think about the new distributed energy and all these new kinds of products and services that are coming down the path. This leans us into the kind of so what which is we probably would benefit as an industry if, if every utility and every organization hired a behavioral scientist, somebody who's really, you know, very savvy and in these, in these different kinds of customer segments or profiles, and how and what those customers really value, and how they're going to interact. And start to tailor as best we can. We don't want to overdo it, but we, you know, tailor and form our product services and interaction channels for these different consumer bases, that would be a, you know, that will be necessary, and we see that we're inspired by what's helped happen in telecommunications and cable and some of the other service home service providers, how they have really leaned in on A much more behavioral approach to their consumer base. Trevor Freeman  39:42 Yeah, and, I mean, I guess, keeping with the theme of three chunks of threes, you kind of expand and you take that into these three areas of action that energy providers can take to help their consumers on that journey, as we talked about and you even make the note of saying the companies, energy companies, have to do everything all at once quickly. We can't sort of pick and choose when it comes to rethinking the way we're engaging with our customers, our consumers. So help me understand these three areas of actions that that are so critical for energy companies? Greg Guthridge  40:20 Yeah, again, I'm going to hand this over to Nicholas in a moment. The you know, the message is that, again, we are we're trying to accelerate an energy transition measured in decades rather than in generations, and so we've got to walk and chew gum at the same time. And that utilities are immensely complex organizations that are already doing that, obviously. I mean, we're the infrastructure and the complexity to deliver, you know, electricity and natural gas to consumers is an Herculean activity already, and what we're suggesting is it's going to be even more complex now as we try to engage consumers in in, you know, these three key areas. So Nicholas, over to you, just to give a quick overview on what some of those key priorities are that we all have to juggle simultaneously. Nicholas Handcock  41:12 Yeah, you bet. And it's, you know, it's probably overly simplified, but to get it down to threes, I think the first one that we talked about is really thinking about reinventing the basics. And I know, Greg, it's one of your favorite things to talk about, spring cleaning that you know, a lot of utilities are really the product of, you know, 100 years of history and of built-up complexity and taking a step back and saying, how do we really simplify a lot of our internal processes? How do we simplify and automate things to help the employee experience, but also flip that lens to the customer side? How do we make things as effortless and easy as possible for customers, really, across every kind of interaction that we could be having with them? You know, focusing on like one and done, we really finished. Finished, start, finish. What we start when it comes to customer experience, so that reinventing of the basics and that comes also to areas like outage and reliability, where we see that being more and more important in a lot of places. How do we think back to that experience and make it really the best that it can be? I think the second area, we call it onboarding of the new which is, how do we make you know, consumers? How do we go and engage them and really more of a personalized way? How do we tailor things to the best that we can in a cost effective manner, and really start to bring in those new programs and products and services that we want to take to customers and have that new messaging for them, and build a new kind of relationship, as Greg said, meeting customers where they are, and creating a new kind of connection point with customers when it comes to energy. And the final thing is really thinking about scaling for the outcomes that we're trying to achieve. And there's a lot of things to focus on here. I think a lot of utilities have gotten stuck in pilot mode when it comes to a number of things, whether it be new programs or new products and services or things like new technology, like artificial intelligence. And what we see is that the time for sort of pilots and testing is really over. Consumers and the energy transition are moving forward very quickly, and it's time to really reach for scale when it comes to things like introducing new technologies to make experiences better, to simplify, but also scaling those new products and services in a way that's going to be effective for a future that has sort of mass adoption. We're moving beyond the early adopters. And now we need to think about moving from pilots to scale. And so that scaling for outcomes is really the third place to focus on. Trevor Freeman  43:29 Yeah, and that's a great I like kind of ending up there that looking at, what does this look like when we move past that pilot stage, past that Imagineering stage, if you will. And that's kind of where I want to wrap things up today with my last question. And I'm going to put you guys on the spot a little bit here and ask you to, you know, think about those stakeholders in the energy sector that you're working with. You know, knowing your reach is global, who are doing a really good job of this, who are further down this path towards the transition than others are, and what does it look like, both for that, both for that kind of utility actor, as well as the consumer, when you've got an energy sector, when you've got an energy system that is closer to where it will be in this future that we've been talking about than where we are today, with maybe some of those lagging actors. What does that look like? What is it like to have an energy sector that's really through the transition, if you will, or close to that? Greg Guthridge  44:33 Oh, Trevor, yeah, let's, let's pull out our, our, our little crystal ball, and see what the future is here. The future is ubiquitous energy. The future is consumers who are multi product, multi-channel and multi provider, and who have a connected ecosystem of energy devices that they can override and control, but are also. So simple and automated in many ways, they we have simple, clear too easy to understand billing and payment capability that's fully integrated, and we're providing a convenient, effortless and frictionless experience, both for residential customers, for the mass market, as well as for businesses, we're leaning in on new energy load growth, whether that's, you know, data centers and any number of other things, and we're leaning in on this convergence of the home and the automobile, which is going to be a fascinating transition in the future. So how and what that is going to look like in the future is going to vary dramatically for different utilities, and the duration that it will take will also vary dramatically. That's really where we're headed, and it's super exciting to see this, this unfolds across the globe. Trevor Freeman  46:04 I think it's helpful to try and get in that headspace from time to time, because we spend a lot of time talking about where we are now and the challenges we face and the big things that have to happen, and we talk about the solutions as these kind of nebulous things, but really thinking of what's the day to day, like when we get through this energy transition, or when we move further than we are today, I think is helpful to give us that I don't know, call it hope for where we want to be in the energy sector. So to wrap up our conversation today, I always ask our guests a series of questions, just to help kind of get to know you and get out of this space for a little bit. So given that there's two of you, I'll just throw the questions out there, and either one of you can answer. You can fight over who gets to answer or who has to answer. I'll leave that up to you. So, to start us off, what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read? Greg Guthridge  46:56 Oh, what an interesting question. And it's interesting. We have a we actually have a book club at EY, a monthly book club, and we've covered, I very kind of different book. And what's fascinating is, after two or three years of having a an internal book club at EY, my favorite book isn't even on the list yet, and it's actually called the future we choose. And the author is Christine Figuerellis. I think I might have heard her last name, but the future we choose, and it's a really optimistic book on the future of how we can navigate. It presents the challenge ahead, but also gives us hope and optimism in how we're going to navigate that that transition. So great, great little book, a good read, nonfiction to some extent, and worth a quick, worth a quick read. Nicholas Handcock  47:58 I'm surprised you didn't, didn't pick it, Greg, because I know this is one of your favorites, but I thought I'd thrown out as one that I think everyone should read is that it's a bit of an older book, The Effortless Experience, by Matt Dyson, and it's, you know, it's all about customer experience and how most customers really just want the simplest customer experience possible. And that's really what moves the needle, is making it easy and effortless for people, and even proactively making it so they don't have to connect and contact us. And I think as utilities, it's a good one to think about. As the experience gets more and more complicated, how do we actually make it simpler? Greg Guthridge  48:30 Yeah. Nicholas, you named it that's, that's, that's, you know, for years, that's been one of my favorite books. So yeah, the effort listed customer experience. Matt Dyson, great book. Trevor Freeman  48:42 Both of those are great I love the idea of holding on to that hope and optimism and then that sort of practical look at, how do we how do we let customers have the easiest experience with us as possible? Both of those are great choices. So, the next question is kind of the same, but for a movie or show what's a movie or show that you think everyone should have a look at? Greg Guthridge  49:04 Oh, yeah, Trevor, we've all, you know, we all survived the pandemic with all kinds of different media options here. And, you know, actually, during covid, one of the movies that resonated with me was this was a book or was a movie called The biggest little farm. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's a it's a fascinating sort of journey around sustainability. And you know the creativity that those residential customers can take. It's, it's fun, it's light, it's a good Friday evening kind of movie, if you know what I mean. So have a chance. Check it out. I think it's four or five years old now, but it's called the biggest little farm, Trevor Freeman  49:52 Perfect. My next question is, now, now both of you guys’ travel, I think, a fair amount, so this is either going to be an easier or harder question for you to answer, but if someone gave you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go? Greg Guthridge  50:07 Well, that's easy for me. I'd probably go to either New Zealand or Italy. New Zealand because of the amazing environment and landscape, and it's just it's such a beautiful part of little pocket of the world, and Italy for its food, that would be easy. Nicholas? Nicholas Handcock  50:24 I think I would jump on a plane to Japan. Greg and I both spent some time working there as the market and energy was liberalizing. And it's such a unique and interesting place that I just absolutely love and sort of on the nerdy side, from the energy side of things, it's very interesting where you've got, you know, subway companies and things selling electricity in Japan, which is, you know, different and unique from a lot of places in the world. Trevor Freeman  50:48 So cool. I mean, I've done a bit of traveling as well, and I think those, those things that you guys both highlighted. I mean, food, for sure, is phenomenal to go somewhere else and experience different food. And nothing really beats good Italian food in Italy, but also those examples that you brought up Nicholas, of just different ways of doing things that we don't consider or don't seem to fit within our culture here, that maybe we should be looking at. And yeah, I love kind of seeing those examples and hearing about those examples. So, both great, great answers. Okay, so to wrap it up, then, what is something about the energy sector or its future that really excites you, that you're really pumped about Greg Guthridge  51:27 I'm excited that we are approaching the energy experience from a technology and operations, a consumer lens, and you can see a future, an Ubiquitous Energy Future, where consumers are much more active in their experience. They're benefiting from that experience. We don't we can do this. We can make it affordable, we can make it reliable, and we can make it much more convenient for consumers in the future. So it's just going to be fascinating to see this convergence of technology, of societal along with all these new products and services kind of converging together. And you know, there's a lot of other industries and sectors, from, you know, manufacturing to industrials to automotive that that will play an increasingly interesting role as this convergence occurs in the marketplace. So it's just going to be fascinating to be a part of. Nicholas Handcock  52:33 Yeah, and I think piling, piling onto that, Greg, I think it's really exciting that the spotlight is on the energy sector. You know, it's in the headlines in the news. My family and my friends asked me about it and asked me about topics that are related to my work, which probably five years ago they thought was very boring, and now it's getting exciting. I think it's also really exciting when it comes to thinking about the talents, the investment, the innovation that we can attract to the sector. We're already starting to see it startups and things having really creative new solutions coming to the energy sector that maybe used to focus elsewhere. So I think there's just so much innovation and change coming. It is really, really exciting for the future. Trevor Freeman  53:12 Great. Well, I think that's a pretty phenomenal place to wrap up with, with that little pump of optimism. Nicholas and Greg, I really appreciate your time, and this was a great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights, and appreciate you coming on the show. Greg Guthridge  53:24 Trevor, thank you very much. Appreciate your time today. Nicholas Handcock  53:27 Yes, thanks, Trevor. Trevor Freeman  53:29 Great. Take care, guys. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word as always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com