Reimagining heating and cooling with district energy systems

Scott Demark, President and CEO of Zibi Community Utility, joins thinkenergy to discuss how our relationship with energy is changing. With two decades of expertise in clean energy and sustainable development, Scott suggests reimagining traditional energy applications for heating and cooling. He shares how strategic energy distribution can transform urban environments, specifically how district energy systems optimize energy flow between buildings for a greener future. Listen in.

Related links

• Scott Demark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-demark-83640473/

• Zibi Community Utility: https://zibi.ca/

• Markham District Energy Inc: https://www.markhamdistrictenergy.com/

• One Planet Living: https://www.bioregional.com/one-planet-living

• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman  00:07

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

Speaker 1  00:29

Hi everyone. Welcome back. One of the overarching aspects of the energy transition that we have talked about several times on this show is the need to change our relationship with energy, to rethink the standard way of doing things when it comes to heating and cooling and transportation, etc. This change is being driven by our need to decarbonize and by the ongoing evolution and improvement of technology. More things are becoming available to us as technology improves on the decarbonization front, we know that electrification, which is switching from fossil fuel combustions to electricity for things like space and water heating vehicles, etc, is one of the most effective strategies. But in order to switch out all the end uses to an electric option, so swapping out furnaces and boilers for heat pumps or electric boilers, switching all gas cars to EVs, etc. In order to do that in a way that is affordable and efficient and can be supported by our electricity grid, we need to think about multi strategy approaches, so we can't just continue to have this one way power grid where every home, every business, every warehouse or office tower satisfies all of its energy needs all the time directly from the grid with no adaptability. That isn't the best approach. It's not going to be affordable or efficient. We're not going to be able to do it fast enough. The multi strategy approach takes into account things like distributed energy resources, so solar and storage, etc, which we've talked about many times on this show, but it also includes approaches like district energy. So, district energy is rethinking how energy flows between adjacent buildings, looking for opportunities to capture excess energy or heat from one source and use that to support another. And that is the focus of today's conversation. To help us dive into this topic, I'm really happy to welcome Scott Demark to the show. Scott has been a champion of sustainability, clean energy solutions and energy efficiency in the Ottawa real estate and development industry for over 20 years now, he has overseen many high-performance development projects and was one of the driving forces behind the Zibi development in downtown Ottawa, and most applicable for today's conversation the renewable district energy system that provides heating and cooling to the Zibi site. Scott is the president and CEO of the Zibi community utility, as well as a partner at Thea partners. Scott Demark, welcome to the show.

Scott Demark  03:15

Thanks. Nice to see you. Trevor,

Trevor Freeman  03:17

So, Scott, why don't we start with definitions are always a good place to start. So, when we talk about a district energy system, give us a high-level overview of what exactly that means.

Scott Demark  03:27

Sure, a district energy system is, is simply the connection, or interconnection of thermal energy sources, thermal energy sinks. And so really, in practical terms. It means, instead of buildings having their own furnace and cooling system, buildings connect to a hydronic loop. A hydronic loop is just pipes filled with water, and then the heat or the cooling is made somewhere else, and that heat or lack of heat cooling is in a pipe. They push the pipe to the building, and then the pipe extracts the heat or rejects the heat to that loop. And so it's simply an interconnection of us as sources and sinks for federal energy.

Trevor Freeman  04:14

And I guess one of the important concepts here is that buildings often create heat, not just through a furnace or not just through the things that are meant to create heat, but, you know, server racks, computer server racks, generate a lot of heat, and that heat has to go somewhere. So oftentimes we're cooling buildings to remove heat that's being created in those buildings, and then other buildings nearby need to be heated in order to make that space comfortable. Is that fair to say?

Scott Demark  04:42

Yeah, absolutely. Trevor, so, an office building in the city of Ottawa, big old government office building, you'll see a pretty big plume on the roof in the winter time. That's not just kind of the flue gas from a boiler, but rather it is actually chillers are. running inside to make cooling, and they're just selling that heat to the atmosphere, even on the coldest day of the year. So, it's people, you know, people are thermal load. Computers are thermal load, and so is solar gain. You know, January is pretty dark period for us, meaning low angle sun. But by this time in a year, you know, or at the end of February, there's a lot of heat in that sun. So, a glass building absorbs a lot of sun. An office building will need cooling on the sunny side of that building a lot of the time, even in the dead of winter.

Trevor Freeman  05:31

Yeah. So, a district system, then, is taking advantage of the fact that heat exists, and we don't necessarily need to either burn fossil fuels or even if it's a, you know, a clean system, we don't have to expend energy to create heat, or create as much heat if we could move that heat around from where it's kind of naturally occurring to where we need it.

Scott Demark  05:54

That's right at the very core of a district energy system. You're going to move heat from a place that it's not wanted to a place that it is wanted. And so in our example of the office building, you know, on the February day with the sun shining in and the computers all running, that building's getting rid of heat. But right next door, say there's a 20-story condo. Well, that 20 story condo needs heating and it also needs domestic hot water. So, year-round, domestic hot water represents 30, 35% of the heating load of any residential building, so at all times. So, a district energy system allows you to take that heat away from the office building and give it to the residential building, instead of making the heat and dissipating that heat to the atmosphere in the office building. So, yeah, it's, it's really a way to move, you know, from sources to sinks. That's, that's what a district energy system does well.

Trevor Freeman  06:48

So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition. This, this push to, one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs. And two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, etc., to more of a two-way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition. How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?

Scott Demark  07:27

I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in. That industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are just starting right. Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth, and so they don't have the same cost structure, and often times they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore, a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where, you know, you might want to go and recover heat from some process, and we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if he wanted to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it, but if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden, makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So, once you've established that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings, what the source and what the sources, doesn't matter. So, you may have at one point built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy System is a great example of this market District Energy System was built on the concept of using a co-generation facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity, they sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well, here we are, 20 plus years later, and, they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system Augment, not fully replaced, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So, they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't have to rip up the pipes, they don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept. Now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.

Trevor Freeman  10:21

So, you mentioned, I want to pick on something you said there. You talked about a sewer heat energy system. They're pulling heat from the sewer. Just help our listeners understand high level kind of, why is there heat there for us to pull? Like, what's the what's the source there?

Scott Demark  10:38

Yeah. So, when we shower, when we flush toilets, all of that is introducing heat into a sewer system. So, we're collecting heat from everybody's house into the sewer system. The sewer system also sits below the frost line. So, call it Earth coupled. You know it's the earth in Ottawa below the frost line sits around eight, eight and a half c and so at that temperature and the temperature of flushing toilets, we essentially get a sewer temperature in the on the coldest day of the year, that's around 10 10, and a half degree Celsius. And obviously, for lots of the year, it's much warmer than that. And so I think, you know, a lot of people are kind of familiar with the concept of geo exchange energy, or that. Lot of people call it geothermal, but you exchange where you might drill down into the earth, and you're taking advantage of that eight, eight and a half degrees, I'll see. So, you're exchanging heat, you can reject heat to the earth, or you can absorb heat from the earth. Well, this is the same idea, but you accept or reject from the sewer. But because the sewer is relatively shallow, it is cheaper to access that energy, and because it's warm, and on the coldest day, a couple of degrees make a big difference, Trevor, and most of the year so much warmer, you're really in a very good position to extract that heat, and that's all it is. You are just accepting or rejecting heat. You don't use the sewage itself. It doesn't come into your building. You have a heat exchanger in between. But that's, that's what you do.

Trevor Freeman  12:10

Yeah, great. And I, we've talked before on the show about the idea that, you know, for a air source, heat pump, for example, you don't need a lot of heat energy to extract energy from the air. It can be cold outside, and there is still heat energy in the air that you can pull and use that to heat a building, heat water, whatever. So same concept, except you've got a much warmer source of energy, I guess.

Scott Demark  12:34

Yeah, exactly. And you know, Trevor, when you look at the efficiency curves of those air source heat pumps, you know, they kind of drop off a cliff at minus 20. Minus 22 in fact. You know, five or six years ago, they that that was dropping off at minus 10. So, we've come a long way in air source heat pumps. But imagine on that coldest, coldest day of the year, you're still your source is well above zero, and therefore your efficiency. So, the amount of electricity you need to put into the heat pump to get out the heat that you need is much lower, so it's a way more efficient heat exchange.

Trevor Freeman  13:07

Great. Thanks for that, Scott. I know that's a bit of a tangent here, but always cool to talk about different ways that we're coming up with to heat our buildings. So back to district energy. We've talked through some of the benefits of the system. If I'm a building owner and I'm have the decision to connect to a system that's there, or have my own standalone, you know, traditional boiler, whatever the case may be, or even in a clean energy one, a heat pump, whatever. What are the benefits of being on a district system versus having my own standalone system for just my building.

Scott Demark  13:42

Yeah, so when you're wearing the developer’s hat, you know they're really looking at it financially. If they have other goals around sustainability, great, that will factor into it. But most of them are making decisions around this financially. So, it needs to compete with that. That first cost that we talked about the easiest ways, is boilers, gas fired boilers is the cheapest way. And so, they're going to look to see it at how. How does this compare to that? And so, I think that's the best way to frame it for you. And so, the difference here is that you need to install in your building a cooling system and a heating system. In Ottawa, that cooling system is only used for a few months a year, and it's very expensive. It takes up space, whether you're using a chiller and a cooling tower on the roof or using a dry cooler, it takes up roof space, and it also takes up interior space. If you do have a cooling tower, you have a lot of maintenance for that. You need to turn it on and turn it off in the spring, on and fall, etc., just to make sure all that happens and you need to carry the life cycle of that boiler plant. You need to bring gas infrastructure into your building. You generally need to put that gas boiler plant high in your building. So up near the top, and that's for purposes of venting that properly. Now that's taking real estate, right? And it's taking real estate on the area that's kind of most advantageous, worth the most money. So you might lose a penthouse to have a boiler and chiller room up there. And you also, of course, lose roof space. And today, we really do try to take advantage of those rooftop, patios and things, amenities are pretty important in buildings. And so, when I compare that to district energy at the p1 level, p2 level in your building, you're going to have a small room, and I really do mean small where the energy transfer takes place, you'll have some heat exchangers. And small, you might have a space, you know, 10 or 12 feet by 15 to 18 feet would be big enough for a 30-story tower, so a small room where you do the heat exchange and then Trevor, you don't have anything in your building for plants that you would normally look after. So, when you look at the pro forma for owning your building over the lifetime of it. You don't have to maintain boilers. You don't have to have boiler insurance. You don't have to maintain your chillers. You don't have to have life cycle replacement on any of these products. You don't need anybody operating those checking in on the pressure vessels. None of that has to happen. All of that happens on the district energy system. So, you're really taking something you own and operate, and replacing that with a service. So, district energy is a service, and what, what we promised to deliver is the heating you need and the cooling you need. 24/7. The second thing you get is more resilience, and I'll explain that a little bit. Is that in a in a normal building, if you if the engineers looked at it and said, you need two boilers to keep your building warm, then you're probably going to install three. And that is kind of this, and plus one sort of idea, so that if one boiler goes down, you have a spare. And you need to maintain those. You need to pay for that. You need to maintain those, etc. But in district energy system, all that redundancy is done in the background. It's done by us, and we have significantly more redundancy than just n plus one in this example. But overall, you know, if you have 10 buildings on your district energy system, each of those would have had n plus one. We don't have n plus 10 in the plant. And so overall, the cost is lower, I would say, if you look at it globally, except the advantages you do have better than N plus one in the plant. So, we have higher resiliency at a lower cost.

Trevor Freeman  17:39

So, we know there's no such thing as a miracle solution that works in all cases. What are the best use cases for district energy system? Where does it make a lot of sense?

Scott Demark  17:50

Yeah, in terms some, in some ways the easiest things, Pretty work. Doesn't make sense. So, so it doesn't make sense in sprawling low rise development. So, the cost of that hydronic loop those water pipes is high. They have to fit in the roadway. It's civil work, etc. And so, you do need density. That doesn't mean it has to be high rise density.  You know, if you look at Paris, France, six stories district energy, no problem. There's, there's lots and lots of customers for that scale of building. It doesn't have to be all high rise, but it does, District Energy does not lend itself well to our sprawling style of development. It's much more suited to a downtown setting. It also kind of thrives where there's mixed use. You know, I think the first example we were talking about is office building shedding heat, residential building needing heat. You know, couple that with an industrial building shedding heat. You know, these various uses, a variety of uses on a district energy system, is the best, because its biggest advantage is sharing energy, not making energy. And so, a disparity of uses is the best place to use that. I think the other, the other thing to think about, and this is harder in Canada than the rest of the world, is that, you know, it's harder on a retrofit basis, from a cost perspective, than it is in a in a new community where you can put this in as infrastructure. Day one, you're going to make a big difference. And I'll, you know, give a shout out to British Columbia in the Greater Vancouver area. So, the district, you know, down in the Lower Mainland, they, they kind of made this observation and understood that if they were going to electrify, then District Energy gave economies of scale to electrify that load. And they do a variety of things, but one of the things they do is, is kind of district you exchange system so, so big heat pumps coupled to big fields, and then spring heat made a bunch of buildings. But these are green field developments Trevor. So, as they expand their suburbs. They do need to build the six stories. They very much have kind of density around parks concept. So now Park becomes a geo field. Density around the geo field, but this infrastructure is going in the same time as the water pipes. It's going in at the same time as the roads, the sidewalks, etc. You can dramatically reduce your cost, your first cost related to that hydro loop, if you're putting it in the same time you're doing the rest of the services.

Trevor Freeman  20:27

So, we're not likely to see, you know, residential neighborhoods with single family homes or multi-unit homes, whatever, take advantage of this. But that sort of low rise, mid rise, that's going to be more of a good pick for this. And like you said, kind of development is the time to do this. You mentioned other parts of the world. So, district energy systems aren't exactly widespread. In Canada, we're starting to see more of them pop up. What about the rest of the world? Are there places in the world where we see a lot more of this, and they've been doing this for a long time?

Scott Demark  21:00

Yeah. So, I'd almost say every, everywhere in the northern hemisphere, except North America, has done much more of this. And, you know, we really look to kind of Scandinavia as the gold standard of this. You look to Sweden, you look to Denmark, you look to Germany, even. There's, there's a lot of great examples of this, and they are typically government owned. So, they are often public private partnerships, but they would be various levels of government. So, you know, if you, if you went to Copenhagen, you'd see that the municipality is an owner. But then their equivalent of a province or territory is actually a big part of it, too. And when they built their infrastructure ages ago, they did not have an easy source of fossil fuels, right? And so, they need to think about, how can we do this? How can we share heat? How can we centralize the recovery of heat? How can we make sure we don't waste any and this has just been ingrained in them. So there's massive, massive District Energy loops, interconnecting loops, some owned by municipalities. Someone probably, if you build the factory, part of the concept of your factory, part of the pro forma of your factory is, how much can I sell my waste heat for? And so, a factory district might have a sear of industrial partners who own a district energy loop and interfaces with the municipal loop all sort of sharing energy and dumping it in. And so that's, you know, that's what you would study. That's, that's where we would want to be, and the heart of it is, just as I said, we've really had, you know, cheap or, you know, really cheap fossil fuels. We've had no price on pollution. And therefore, it really hasn't needed to happen here. And we're starting to see the need for that to happen here.

Trevor Freeman  22:58

It's an interesting concept to think of, you know, bringing that factory example in, instead of waste heat or heat as a byproduct of your process being a problem that you need to deal with, something you have to figure out a way to get rid of. It becomes almost an asset. It's a it's a, you know, convenient commodity that's being produced regardless, that you can now look to sell and monetize?

Scott Demark  23:21

Yeah, you go back to the idea of, like, what are the big benefits of district energy? Is that, like, if that loop exists and somebody knows that one of the things the factory produces is heat, well, that's a commodity I produce, and I can, I can sell it, if I have a way to sell it right here. You know, we're going to dissipate it to a river. We may dissipate it to the atmosphere. We're going to get rid of it. Like you said, it's, it's, it's waste in their minds and in Europe, that is absolutely not waste.

Trevor Freeman  23:49

And it coming back to that, you know, question of, where does this make sense? You talked about mixed use. And it's also like the, you know, the temporal mix use of someone that is producing a lot of heat during the day when the next-door residential building is empty, then when they switch, when the factory closes and the shift is over and everybody comes home from work, that's when that building needs heat. That's when they want to be then taking that heat to buildings next to each other that both need heat at the same time is not as good a use cases when it's offset like that.

Scott Demark  24:23

Yeah, that's true. And unless lots of District Energy Systems consider kind of surges in storage, I know our system at CB has, has kind of a small storage system related to the domestic hot water peak load. However, you can also think of the kilometers and kilometers and kilometers of pipes full of water as a thermal battery, right? So, so you actually are able to even out those surges. You let the temperature; the district energy system rise. When that factory is giving all out all kinds of heat, it's rising even above the temperature. You have to deliver it at, and then when that peak comes, you can draw down that temperature and let the whole district energy system normalize to its temperature again. So you do have an innate battery in the in the water volume that sits in the district energy system

Trevor Freeman  25:15

Very cool. So you've mentioned Zibi a couple times, and I do want to get into that as much as we're talking about other parts of the world, you know, having longer term district energy systems. Zibi, community utility is a great example, right here in Ottawa, where you and I are both based of a district energy system. Before we get into that, can you, just for our listeners that are not familiar with Zibi, give us a high level overview of what that community is its location, you know, the goals of the community. And then we'll talk about the energy side of things.

Scott Demark  25:46

Sure. So Zibi was formerly Domtar paper mills. It's 34 acres, and it is in downtown Ottawa and downtown Gatineau. About a third of the land mass is islands on the Ontario side, and two thirds the land mass is on the shore, the north shore of the Ottawa River in Gatineau, both downtown, literally in the shadows of Parliament. It is right downtown. It was industrial for almost 200 years. Those paper mills shut down in the 90s and the early 2000s and my partners and I pursued that to turn it from kind of this industrial wasteland, walled off, fenced off, area that no one could go into, what we're hoping will be kind of the world's most Sustainable Urban Community, and so at build out, it will house, you know, about six, 7000 people. It will be four and a half million square feet, 4.24 point 4 million square feet of development. It is master planned and approved, and has built about, I think we're, at 1.1 million square feet, so we're about quarter built out. Now. 10 buildings are done and connected to the district energy system there. And really, it's, it's an attempt to sort of recover land that was really quite destroyed. You can imagine it was a pretty polluted site. So, the giant remediation plan, big infrastructure plan. We modeled this, this overall sustainability concept, over a program called one planet living which has 10 principles of sustainability. So, you know, you and I are talking a lot about carbon today, but there's also very important aspects about affordability and social sustainability and lifestyle, and all of those are incorporated into the one planet program, and encourage people to look up one planet living and understand what it is and look at the commitments that we've made at Zibi to create a sustainable place. We issue a report every year, kind of our own report card that's reviewed by a third party that explains where we are on our on our mission to achieve our goal of the world's most sustainable community.

Speaker 1  28:09

Yeah. And so I do encourage people to look at one planet living also. Have a look at, you know, the Zibi website, and it's got the Master Plan and the vision of what that community will be. And I've been down there, it's already kind of coming along. It's amazing. It's amazing to see the progress compared to who I think you described it well, like a bit of an industrial wasteland at the heart of one of the most beautiful spots in the city. It was really a shame what it used to be. And it's great to see kind of the vision of what it can become. So that's awesome,

Scott Demark  28:38

Yeah, and Trevor, especially now that the parks are coming along. You know, we worked really closely with the NCC to integrate the shoreline of Zibi to the existing, you know, bike path networks and everything. And, you know, two of the three shoreline parks are now completed and open to the public and they're stunning. And you know, so many Ottawa people have not been down there because it's not a place you think about, but it's one of the few places in Ottawa and Gatineau where you can touch the water, you know, like it's, it's, it's stunning,

Trevor Freeman  29:08

yeah, very, very cool. Okay, so the next part of that, of course, is energy. And so there is a district energy system, one of the first kind of, or the most recent big energy, District Energy Systems in Ottawa. Tell us a little bit about how you are moving energy and heating the Zibi site.

Scott Demark  29:29

Yeah. So first, I'll say, you know, we, we, we studied different, uh, ways to get to net zero. You know, we had, we had a goal of being a zero carbon community. There are low carbon examples, but a zero carbon community is quite a stretch. And even when you look at the Scandinavian examples, the best examples, they're missing their energy goals, largely because some of the inputs that are District Energy System remain false so, but also because they have trouble getting them. Performance out of the buildings. And so we looked at this. We also know from our experience that getting to zero carbon at the building scale in Ottawa is very, very difficult. Our climate is tough, super humid, super hot. Summer, very cold, very dry, winter, long winter. So, it's difficult at the building scale. It's funny Trevor, because you'd actually have an easier time getting to zero carbon or a passive house standard in affordable housing than you do at market housing. And that's because affordable housing has a long list of people who want to move in and pay rents. You can get some subsidies for capital and the people who are willing to pay rent are good with smaller windows, thicker walls, smaller units and passthroughs, needs all those kinds of things. So when down at Zibi, you're really selling views, you're competing with people on the outside of Zibi, you're building almost all glass buildings. And so it's really difficult to find a way to get to zero carbon on the building scale. So that moved us to district energy for all the reasons we've talked about today already. And so, when we looked at it for Zibi, you really look at the ingredients you have. One of the great things we have is we're split over the border. It's also a curse, but split over the border is really interesting, because you cannot move electricity over that border, but you can move thermal energy over that border. And so, for us, in thinking about electrifying thermal energy, we realized that if we did the work in Quebec, where there is clean and affordable electricity, we could we could turn that into heat, and then we could move heat to Ontario. We could move chilled water to Ontario. So that's kind of ingredient, one that we had going for us there. The second is that there used to be three mills. So originally Domtar three mills, they sold one mill. It changed hands a few times, but it now belongs to Kruger. They make tissue there so absorbent things, Kleenexes and toilet paper, absorbent, anything in that tissue process that's a going concern. So, you can see that in our skyline. You can see, on cold days, big plumes of waste heat coming out of it. And so, we really saw that as our source, really identified that as our source. And how could we do that? So, going back to the economies of scale, is, could we send a pipeline from Kruger, about a kilometer away, to Zibi? And so, when we were purchasing the land, we were looking at all the interconnections of how the plants used to be realized. There are some old pipelines, some old easements, servitudes, etc. And so, when we bought the land, we actually bought all of those servitudes to including a pipeline across the bridge, Canadian energy regulator licensed across the bridge into Ontario. And so, we mixed all these ingredients up, you know, in a pot, and came up with our overall scheme. And so that overall scheme is relatively simple. We built an energy recovery station at Kruger, where just before their effluent water, like when they're finished in their process, goes back to the river. We have a heat exchanger there. We extract heat. We push that heat in a pipe network over to Zibi. At Zibi, we can upgrade that heat using heat recovery chillers, to a useful temperature for us, that's about 40 degrees Celsius, and we push that across the bridge to Ontario, all of our buildings in Ontario, then have thin coil units. They use that 40-degree heat to heat buildings. The return side of that comes back to Quebec, and then on the Quebec side, we have a loop and all of our buildings in the Quebec side, then use heat pumps so we extract the last bit of heat. So, imagine you you've returned from a fan coil, but you're still slightly warm. That slightly warm water is enough to drive a heat pump inside the buildings. And then finally, that goes back to Kruger again, and Kruger heats it back up with their waste heat comes back. So that's our that's our heating loop. The cooling side is coupled to the Ottawa River. And so instead of us rejecting heat to the atmosphere through cooling towers, our coolers are actually coupled to the river. That's a very tight environmental window that you can operate in. So, we worked with the minister the environment climate change in Quebec to get our permit to do it. We can only be six degrees difference to the river, but our efficiency is, on average, like on an annual basis, more than double what it would be to a cooling tower for the same load. So, we're river coupled with respect to cooling for the whole development, and we're coupled to Kruger for heating for the whole development. And what that allows us to do is eliminate fossil fuels. Our input is clean Quebec electricity, and our output is heating and cooling.

Trevor Freeman  34:56

So, none of the buildings, you know, just for our listeners, none of the buildings have any. sort of fossil fuel combustion heating equipment. You don't have boilers or anything like that, furnaces in these in these buildings,

Scott Demark  35:06

no boilers, no chillers, no

Trevor Freeman  35:09

that's awesome. And just for full transparency, I should have mentioned this up front. So, the zibi community utility is a partnership between Zibi and Hydro Ottawa, who our listeners will know that I work for, and this was really kind of a joint venture to figure out a different approach to energy at the city site.

Scott Demark  35:28

Yeah, that's right, Trevor. I mean the concept, was born a long time ago now, but the concept was born by talking to Hydro Ottawa about how we might approach this whole campus differently. You know, one of hydro Ottawa's companies makes electricity, of course, Chaudiere Falls, and so that was part of the thinking we thought of, you know, micro grids and islanding this and doing a lot of different things. When Ford came in, and we were not all the way there yet and made changes the Green Energy Act. It made it challenging for us to do the electricity side, but we had already well advanced the thermal side, and hydro, you know, hydro makes a good partner in this sort of thing. When a when a developer tells someone, I'd like you to buy a condo, and by the way, I'm also the district energy provider that might put some alarm bells up, but you put a partnership in there with a trusted, long term utility partner, and explain that, you know, it is in the in the public interest, they're not going to jack rates or mess with things. And then obviously, just, you know, hydro had such a long operating record operating experience that they really brought sort of an operations and long-term utility mindset to our district energy system.

Trevor Freeman  36:45

So, looking at a system like the Zibi community utility or other district energy systems, is this the kind of thing that can scale up over time? And, you know, I bring this up because you hear people talk about, you know, a network of district energy systems across a city or across a big geographic area. Are these things that can be interconnected and linked, or does it make more sense as standalone district energy systems in those conditions that you talked about earlier?

Scott Demark  37:17

Very much the former Trevor like, and that's, you know, that's where, you know, places like Copenhagen are today. It's that, you know, there was, there was one district energy system, then there was another, then they got interconnected, then the third got added. And then they use a lot of incineration there, in that, in that part of the world, clean incineration for garbage. And so then an incinerator is coming online, and so that incinerators waste heat is going to be fed with a new district energy loop, and some other factory is going to use the primary heat from that, and then the secondary heat is going to come into the dictionary system. So, these things are absolutely expandable. They're absolutely interconnectable. There are temperature profiles. There's modern, modern thoughts on temperature profiles compared to older systems. Most of the old, old systems were steam, actually, which is not the most efficient thing the world, but that's where they started and so now you can certainly interconnect them. And I think that the example at Zibi is a decent one, because we do have two kinds of systems there. You know, I said we have fan coil units in in the Ontario side, but we have heat pumps on the other side. Well, those two things, they can coexist, right? That's there. Those two systems are, are operating together. Because the difference, you know, the difference, from the customer's perspective, in those two markets are different, and the same can be true in different parts of the city or when different sources and sinks are available. So, it is not one method of doing district energy systems. What you do is you examine the ingredients you have. I keep saying it, but sources and sinks. How can I look at these sources and sinks in a way that I can interconnect them and make sense? And sometimes that means that a source or a sink might be another district energy system,

Trevor Freeman  39:12

Yeah, systems that maybe work in parallel to each other, in cooperation with each other. Again, it's almost that temporal need where there's load high on at one point in time and low on the other point in time. Sharing is a great opportunity.

Scott Demark  39:26

Yeah, absolutely

Trevor Freeman  39:27

great. Okay, last question for you here, Scott, what is needed, maybe from a regulatory or a policy lens to encourage more implementation of district energy systems. How do we see more of these things happen here in Canada or North America?

Scott Demark  39:45

The best way to put this, the bureaucracy has been slow to move is, is what I'll say. And I'll use Zibi as that example. When we when we pitch the district energy system. At Zibi, we had to approach the City of Ottawa, and we had to approach the city at Gatineau, the City of Ottawa basically said to us, no, you can't put those in our streets. Engineering just said, no, no, no, no. And so, what we did at Zibi is we actually privatized our streets in order to see our vision through, because, because Ottawa wasn't on board, the city of Gatineau said, Hmm, I'm a little worried. I want you to write protocols of how you will access your pipes and not our pipes. I want to understand where liability ends and starts and all of this kind of stuff. And we worked through that detail slowly, methodically with the city of Gatineau, and we came to a new policy on how district energy could be in a public street and Zb streets are public on the Gatineau side today, you know, come forward 10 years here, and the City of Ottawa has a working group on how to incorporate District Energy pipes into streets. We've been able to get the City of Ottawa to come around to the idea that we will reject and accept heat from their sewer. You know, Hydro Ottawa, wholly owned company of the City of Ottawa, has an active business in district energy. So Trevor, we've come really far, but it's taken a long time. And so, if you ask me, How can we, how can we accelerate district energy, I think a lot of it has to do with the bureaucracy at municipalities. And you know, we're we see so much interest from the Federation of Canadian municipalities, who was the debt funder for zcu. We have multiple visits from people all over Canada, coming to study and look at this as an example. And I'm encouraged by that. But it's also, it's also not rocket science. We need to understand that putting a pipe in a street is kind of a just, just a little engineering problem to solve, whereas putting, you know, burning fossil fuels for these new communities and putting it in the atmosphere, like the genies out of the bottle, right, like, and unfortunately, I think, for a lot of bureaucrats, the challenge at the engineering level is that that pipe in the street is of immediate, complex danger to solving that problem, whereas it's everybody's problem that the that the carbons in the atmosphere. So, if we could accelerate that, if we could focus on the acceleration of standards around District Energy pipes and streets, the rights of a district energy company to exist, and not to rant too much, but give you an example, is that a developer is required to put gas infrastructure into a new community, required, and yet you have to fight to get a district energy pipe in the street. So there needs to be a change of mindset there, and, and, and we're not there yet, but that's where we need to go.

Trevor Freeman  43:07

Yeah, well, it'll be interesting. You know, in 10 years, let's talk again and see how far we come. Hopefully not 10 years. Hopefully it's more like five, to see the kind of change that you've seen in the last decade. But I think that the direction is encouraging, the speed needs a little bit of work, but I'm always encouraged to see, yeah, things are changing or going in the right direction, just slowly. Well, Scott, we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, so as long as you're okay with it, I'll jump right into those. So, the first question is, what is a book you've read that you think everybody should read?

Scott Demark  43:41

Nexus? Which is by Harare. He's the same author that wrote sapiens. Lots of people be familiar with sapiens. And so, Nexus is, is really kind of the history of information that works like, how do we, how do we share and pass information? And kind of a central thesis is that, you know, information is, is neither knowledge nor truth. It is information, and it's talking a lot about, in the age of AI, how are we going to manage to move information into truth or knowledge? And I think it, you know, to be honest, it kind of scared the shit out of me reading it kind of how, how AI is impacting our world and going to impact our world. And what I thought was kind of amazing about it was that he really has a pretty strong thesis around the erosion of democracy in this time. And it's, it was, it was really kind of scary because it was published before the 2024, election. And so it's, it's really kind of both a fascinating and scary read. And I think really something that everybody should get their head around.

Trevor Freeman  44:59

Yeah, there's a few of those books recently that I I would clear or classify them as kind of dark and scary, but really important or really enlightening in some way. And it kind of helps you, you know, formalize a thought or a concept in your head and realize, hey, here's what's happening, or gives you that kind of the words to speak about it in this kind of fraught time we're in. So same question. But for a movie or a show, is there anything that you think everybody should watch

Scott Demark  45:29

That's harder. I think generally, if I'm watching something, it's for my downtime or own entertainment, and pushing my tastes on the rest of the world, maybe not a great idea. I if I, if I'm, if I'm kind of doing that, I tend to watch cooking shows, actually, Trevor. So, like, that's awesome. I like ugly, delicious. I love David Chang. I like, I like, mind of a chef, creativity behind a chef. So those kinds of things, I'd say more. So, if there was something to like that. I think somebody else should, should watch or listen to I have, I have a real love for Malcolm Gladwell podcast, revisionist history. And so if I thought, you know, my watching habits are not going to going to expand anybody's brain. But I do think that Malcolm's perspective on life is, is really a healthy it's really healthy to step sideways and look at things differently. And I would suggest, if you have never listened to that podcast, go to Episode One, season one, and start there. It's, it's, it's fantastic.

Trevor Freeman  46:39

Yeah, I agree. I'll echo that one. That's one of my favorites. If we were to offer you or not, but if we were to offer you a free round-trip flight, anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Scott Demark  46:50

That's hard. So much flight guilt, you know, I know it's a hard assume that there's carbon offset to it. It's an electric plane.

Trevor Freeman  47:00

That's right, yeah,

Scott Demark  47:01

the we, my family, had a trip planned in 2020 to go to France and Italy. My two boys were kind of at the perfect age to do that. It would have been a really ideal trip. And so, I've still never been to either of those places. And if I had to pick one, probably Italy, I would really like to see Italy, mafuti. I think it would be a fantastic place to go. So probably, probably Italy.

Trevor Freeman  47:25

My favorite trip that I've ever done with my wife and our six-month-old at the time was Italy. It was just phenomenal. It was a fantastic trip. Who's someone that you admire?

Scott Demark  47:36

I have a lot of people, actually, a lot of people in this, in this particular space, like, what would I work in that have brought me here to pick one, though I'd probably say Peter Busby. So, Peter Busby is a mentor, a friend, now a business partner, but, but not earlier in my career. Peter Busby is a kind of a, one of the four fathers, you know, if you will, of green design in Canada. He's an architect, Governor General's Award-winning architect, actually. But I think what I, what I really, appreciate about Peter, and always will, is that he was willing to stand up in his peer group and say, hey, we're not doing this right. And, you know, he did that. He did that in the early 80s, right? Like we're not talking he did it when it cost his business some clients. He did it when professors would speak out against him, and certainly the Canadian Association of architecture was not going to take any blame for the shitty buildings that have been built, right? And he did it. And I remember being at a conference where Peter was getting a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Canadian architects Association, and so he's standing up, and people are all super proud of him. They're talking about his big life. And he kind of belittled them all and said, you’re not doing enough. We're not doing enough like he's still he's still there. He's still taking the blame for where things are, and that things haven't moved fast enough, and that buildings are a massive part of our carbon problem, and probably one of the easier areas to fix. You know, we're talking about electric planes. Well, that's a that's a lot more difficult than it is to recover energy from a factory to heat a community, right? I admire him. I learn things from him all the time. He's got a great book out at the moment, actually, and, yeah, he'd be right up there on my in my top list,

Trevor Freeman  49:54

Awesome. What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?

Scott Demark  50:00

I wish you asked me this before the election. I I'm feeling a little dark. Trevor, I think there needs to be a price on pollution in the world. Needs to be a price on pollution in America, in Canada, and I'm worried about that going away. in light of that, I'm not, I'm not super excited about different technologies at the moment. I think there are technologies that are helping us, there are technologies that are pushing us forward, but there's no like silver bullet. So, you know, a really interesting thing that's coming is kind of this idea that a small nuclear reactor, okay, very interesting idea. You could see its context in both localized electricity production, but all the heat also really good for district entry, okay, so that's an interesting tech. It obviously comes with complications around security and disposal, if you like. There's our nuclear industry has been allowed to drink like it's all complicated. So, I don't see one silver bullet in technology that I'm like, That's the answer. But what I do see, I'll go back to what we were talking about before, is, you know, we had to turn this giant ship of bureaucracy towards new solutions. Okay, that's, that's what we had to do. And now that it's turned and we've got it towards the right course, I'm encouraged by that. I really am. You know, there are champions, and I'll talk about our city. You know, there's champions in the City of Ottawa who want to see this happen as younger people have graduated into roles and planning and other engineering roles there. They've grown up and gone to school in an age where they understand how critical this climate crisis is, and they're starting to be in positions of power and being in decision making. You know, a lot of my career, we're trying to educate people that there was a problem. Now, the people sitting in those chairs, it they understand there's a problem, and what can they do about it? And so I am, I am excited that that the there is a next generation sitting in these seats, making decisions. The bureaucracy the ship is, is almost on course to making this difference. So I do think that's encouraging. We have the technology. We really do. It's not rocket science. We just need to get through the bureaucracy barriers, and we need to find ways to properly finance it.

Trevor Freeman  52:34

Right? I think that's a good place to wrap it up. Scott, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate this conversation and shedding a little bit of light, not just on the technical side of district energy systems, but on the broader context, and as you say, the bureaucracy, the the what is needed to make these things happen and to keep going in that right direction. So thanks a lot for your time. I really appreciate it.

Scott Demark  52:56

Thank you, Trevor, good to see you.

Trevor Freeman  52:57

All right. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com