The Forget The Funnel Podcast

If you’re trying to scale your SaaS, but you’re stuck tweaking features, following best practices and listening to experts who know nothing about you, your customers or your product… you’re doing it wrong. In this no-fluff episode of the Forget The Funnel podcast, Gia and Claire cut through the noise and give you the exact steps for growing your product by understanding what your best customers actually need.Forget building for the masses. Forget best practices. Forget guesswork. It’s time to focus on the customers who understand the value of your product and turn them into loyal, long-term revenue. Customer-Led Growth is the framework that gets you there—fast.What You’ll Learn00:36 — What the heck is Customer-Led Growth? Claire and Gia break down why most SaaS founders misinterpret this concept—and why it’s costing you scale.07:34 — Step One: Get out of your product bubble and into your customer’s head. Why focusing on the customer’s problem—not your product—is where growth starts.11:15 — Step Two: Map the customer journey like a pro. Learn how to move beyond “trial to paid” and take customers from curious prospects to raving fans.21:17 — Build high-converting customer experiences by solving real problems—no shiny features needed.23:04 — Step Three: Figure out what “good” really looks like for your best-fit customers and find the gaps in your current experience.26:43 — Case Study: Claire and Gia walk you through how they used the CLG framework with Invoice Simple to uncover hidden growth levers.Why This MattersScaling your SaaS isn’t about cramming in new features or guessing what customers want. It’s about understanding who your best customers are and solving their real problems. That’s what drives growth. If you want to unlock real scale, this episode is your playbook.Your Next MoveListen now, and then head to forgetthefunnel.com to get even more insights on how to turn Customer-Led Growth into your secret weapon for scale.As always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website

“Sell benefits, not features”. We’ve all seen the UserOnboard image of Mario + the magic flower = Super Mario. Or Popeye + spinach = super extra-strength Popeye. It’s the best practice that says you should focus on selling the benefits of your product, rather than the features. What if we told you that this is a best practice that’s lazy and risky?Welp. It is. Different customers value different things at different stages of their decision-making. We can’t assume that our customers only care about the benefits or business outcomes of your product. Don’t get us wrong. Making the outcomes your product provides clear is important. But is it the right thing to be leading with across all of your marketing and messaging and onboarding? I think you’re already picking up what we’re putting down. So what should you do instead? Shock. You gotta start with knowing what will resonate with your customers and then translating that into messaging that will convert. That’s what we dig into on this episode of the Forget The Funnel Podcast. And we’re joined by Anthony Pierri from FletchPMM  to help dispel the whole “sell benefits, not features” best practice brilliantly. He shares the example of the humble homepage; how a lot of brands write its content for the person who they think will approve the deal - some executive - leaning way too heavily into the ‘benefits’ and ‘outcomes’ they think they’ll care about. Increased revenue. Reduced risk. Saved time. …which leads to totally undifferentiated “me too” messaging. This episode is for SaaS founders & practitioners who are looking to: - Home in on the value themes your customers care about- Map those themes to relevant product capabilities (whether feature or benefit-based)- And make sure your messaging is targeted and effective and converts more high-LTV customers. Discussed: How exclusively focusing on benefits can lead to generic, “me too” messaging that turns prospects off - if they even pay attention in the first place. Why understanding what customers value at different decision-making stages leads to higher LTV customers. And techniques for identifying what resonates most with your customers to develop targeted messaging and marketing. As always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website

SaaS teams use the best practice of  A/B testing like a crutch for marketing, messaging and product growth decisions. And it makes sense. If you think about it, A/B testing something relieves you of so much burden. Not sure which headline is gonna resonate? Test it! Teammates have an (ahem, questionable) idea for how to improve conversions? Test it!Here’s the problem with the “test everything” approach: The vast majority of A/B testing is void of customer understanding and designed to make incremental improvements, typically without impacting revenue in any meaningful way.If you can 'cut the cord’ from the purely data-driven statistical model of trying to optimize a page or user journey, you can build bigger, better, more powerful A/B tests that hit customers directly in the feels (and your ARR).On this episode of the Forget the Funnel Podcast, Marc Thomas from Podia shares why testing isn’t the best practice it’s cracked up to be. Georgiana and Claire share when running tests is valuable and why knowing how your customers think, feel, and behave helps you run more productive and profitable tests.Timestamps:1:04—Marc Thomas discusses A/B testing as a flawed “best practice” in SaaS. He explains why it isn’t always the answer and why getting close to your best customers is a better alternative.10:28—Georgiana discusses scenarios when teams might use A/B testing, like validating a hypothesis before taking a big swing. She also explores when a smaller conversion rate can actually be a good thing.15:07—Claire explains why testing for testing’s sake will not produce the desired results. Instead, effective testing starts with understanding your customers to form stronger hypotheses.18:11—Georgiana tells a story of how testing went south for one company when the team tried to find a suitable pricing model. A/B testing steered them wrong until they zeroed in on their best-fit, higher-value customers and what value meant to them.23:29—Georgiana talks about the value of identifying Jobs-to-be-Done for one company so that they can build the customer experience around their high-value customers and optimize for the right things for the right customer.27:25—Claire points out how major organizational change can come from a handful of conversations and when SaaS companies should run tests.As always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website

If you’re building a racecar, friction is bad news. But when you’re building an onboarding experience for your software product, things are a little more nuanced. This week, we’re dialing into why the pervasive push for a frictionless user experience in your product onboarding isn’t just overrated—it might be undermining your growth potential.At some point, SaaS founders and product managers started taking for granted that friction in the user journey was always a bad thing. But that so-called “best practice” isn’t always the best because it doesn’t account for your potential customer’s context. And as we know, context is everything when it comes to their decision-making process.In fact, your customers often *need* friction to convince them to keep using your product.How can you tell good friction from bad to make sure your users get to key moments of value, educate your potential customers, and unveil what really matters to them?On this episode of the Forget the Funnel podcast, Ramli John shares why “remove all friction” is a best practice we should forget. Georgiana and Claire also share why friction gets a bad rap, when to add it in or remove it, and how customer insight unlocks how to add profitable friction for your SaaS. Discussed:Why “remove all friction from your product onboarding” became a best practice and why it’s not actually helpful advice.The difference between unnecessary friction and useful friction and how good friction can help users keep going in your product, including real-life examples.Why customer intel is essential to getting new users to moments of value when you’re adding and removing friction.Key moments:1:56 - Ramli John shares his favorite flawed best practice: “You have to remove all friction from the user journey.” This advice isn’t universal — friction can be helpful and add value to the user experience. 5:31 - Georgiana and Claire second Ramli’s take and break down what friction is, why it gets a bad rap, and why it shouldn’t (at least, not always).8:29 - Claire describes “Exhibit A” of unnecessary friction: a lengthy demo form where sales don’t actually use all the information gathered. The questions may be intended to create a better experience, but it’s a chore to fill out — and the friction’s unhelpful.11:47 - Georgiana walks through examples of products where friction is good, like Canva’s approach to catering the product experience and Wave asking for the user’s logo to show what an invoice would look like.15:26 - Sometimes “best practices” are in direct conflict with what customers want, which is why customer knowledge is critical. Georgiana shares an example of how Bitly introduced friction to educate customers based on Jobs to Be Done research and the resulting use cases. 20:27 - Claire shares how it can hurt you to remove friction when you shouldn't, using an analogy from IKEA. If it’s the user’s first time using your product, you need friction to show them the steps to take based on what’s valuable to them.24:58 - The key to avoiding bad friction is to get clear on what parts of your product matter to your best-fit customers. You have to validate that for them when they get in for the first time and keep the good friction that gets them to moments of value.29:30 - The pair wrap up the episode by sharing how you might implement knowledge about youAs always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website

How do you empower your team to make better decisions in their day-to-day work to increase conversions and drive more revenue?Here’s the thing: Most companies claim to be customer-led. They say things like, “We talk to our customers all the time,” “Our CSAT scores are great," and “User testing is part of our DNA.” But actual customer-led growth means mobilizing your entire team around the ideal customer’s experience. Not piecemeal in Product, Marketing or CS.If you’re going to mobilize a truly customer-led team, you need to know which pitfalls to avoid and how to set your team up for success so that they can take customer insight and turn it into revenue-generating outcomes for your business. On this episode of the Forget the Funnel podcast, Georgiana and Claire break down why Customer-Led Growth is such a powerful tool for driving revenue and how it helps your team break down silos and actually align around your ideal customer. They also share the challenges you might encounter when implementing CLG and how to navigate them.Discussed:The benefits of Customer-Led Growth for teams and what it looks like to implement it well.The practicality of a CLG approach and how it helps teams build more relevant, resonant customer experiences to drive conversions, revenue, and all-around smarter decisions.Common traps that teams fall into when trying to implement — from practitioners who “go rogue” to having too many cooks in the kitchen — and how to avoid them.Key moments:1:32 - Georgiana describes what it looks like to implement customer-led growth, why a lot of companies that say they’re “customer-centric” are full of it, and the benefits of being truly customer-led.4:44 - Claire digs into why CLG helps teams feel more connected to the customer and the power of a shared language across different departments. She also describes how it helped one customer to have Jobs-to-Be-Done language in real time.7:00 - Georgiana shares how a CLG approach drives a better, more resonant customer experience, which, in turn, impacts conversion rates, revenue, and your highest-level business goals.9:44 - Claire describes how adding one question to your sign-up form can be a huge win for customer-led growth and trigger more valuable and relevant customer experiences right away.11:23 - The pair talks through some of the traps teams fall into when CLG goes wrong, starting with one person trying to push the project forward on their own without involving other stakeholders — AKA the lone wolf. 17:01 - Claire talks about another challenging dynamic: stakeholders cycling in and out of a project due to turnover. Georgiana offers her take on why it happens and how to navigate it.18:48 - You shouldn’t “lone wolf” customer-led growth, but involving too many stakeholders is a problem, too. Claire and Georgiana explore the challenges of having too many cooks in the CLG kitchen and share their firsthand experiences with it.22:43 - Georgiana ends the episode by sharing practical advice on how to involve the right stakeholders in CLG, like creating a project brief and forming a CLG team at the start of the project.As always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website

We need to talk about voice of customer — because there’s been a misunderstanding.Voice of customer isn’t just for huge companies. It’s also not an abstract, academic concept that’s too broad for teams to use. Done right, insights pulled from the words your customers use are practical and actionable. And they can help your team make better business decisions day in and day out. Best of all, you don’t have to undertake a massive, endless research project to start putting the words of your best customers, aka ‘Voice of Customer', to work for your business. You can tap into both quick-win and in-depth methods to capture and leverage those insights to attract way more great-fit customers.Ready to tap into VoC? Listen to this episode of the Forget the Funnel podcast as Georgiana and Claire dive deep into why the voice of the customer matters, how you can (and should) apply it to your business, and the methods you can use to get started.Discussed:Common misconceptions about voice of customer and how it fits into the foundational understanding of your customers.Methods for capturing voice of customer, including customer interviews, qualitative surveys, signup flows, social listening and other quick-win tactics.Practical applications for voice of customer, from your homepage copy to product positioning and onboarding experiences.Key moments:1:12 - Claire kicks things off by defining voice of customer, and Georgiana explains some of the misconceptions that might hold companies back from capturing and using it.5:16 - Georgiana takes a “then and now” look at the voice of customer concept. She compares how the term was first used in 1993 to how it looks today, with practical daily applications in areas like marketing. 8:38 - Georgiana explains how capturing voice of customer is part of foundational customer understanding. She also describes the output of those conversations: both high-level understanding and actual customer quotes.12:05 - Claire asks Georgiana to share some methods for capturing voice of customer beyond customer interviews.16:21 - Claire offers guidance for which methods to start with when gathering the voice of the customer and the importance of knowing that your insights are coming from your best-fit customers.21:51 - Georgiana speaks to the importance of recording and manually transcribing customer interviews — and why you shouldn’t use AI to transcribe for voice of customer.24:27 - Georgiana and Claire share an example of a customer who gathered the voice of the customer through qualitative surveys. What they learned completely changed their messaging, which led to a 93% increase in product sign-ups.30:39 - Voice of customer is versatile and applicable well beyond your website homepage. Georgiana closes out the episode by sharing the many applications for the voice of customer.As always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website

It’s rough out there in SaaS—everyone’s feeling it. Whether you’re trying to lower your acquisition costs, make the most of organic inbound interest, or better meet the needs of your technical buyers, you might be ready to take a more product-led approach to growth.But if you’re a sales-led organization, the transition to product-led can be bumpy, and the idea of switching probably raises more questions than answers. How do you validate that there’s a real ‘product-led’ opportunity for your SaaS? How do you prevent cannabilizing your sales opportunities?  What would a shift like this mean for your team? What are some low-risk ways to leverage your product for acquisition?If you’ve got questions like those, don't miss this Forget the Funnel podcast episode. Claire and Georgiana dig into all things product-led and share the indications that your SaaS is ready for a product-led approach, how to navigate company culture pitfalls, and the baby steps you can take to get started and validate the transition.Discussed:Key indicators that signal your SaaS is ready for product-led growth.Cultural and team alignment are essentials for a smooth transition to PLG, and marketing, product, and other teams might need to change.Practical starting points for integrating product-led tactics into your current business model. Key moments:2:03—Georgiana breaks down the differences between sales-led and product-led growth and other approaches to growth. 4:01 - Claire asks Georgiana to walk through the signs that a company might need to move toward product-led growth or that it’s time to transition away from founder-led sales. 9:14 - Team culture is critical in shifting to a product-led approach. Claire and Georgiana explore some potential growing pains when moving away from the sales-led structure (and where to focus on overcoming those).13:50—Claire shares the cautionary tale of a company where the CEO wanted to move to a product-led approach but didn’t do the legwork to get buy-in from the rest of the leadership team.15:06 - Georgiana explores how the move to product-led growth might look for different teams  — and how, in particular, the expectations of product and marketing need to shift.19:14—Georgiana explores tangible ways companies can start the transition from a purely sales-led to a product-led approach, including learning from their customers to better leverage their product.20:52 -  Claire and Georgiana break down examples of tactical entry points to PLG, like a video from the CEO when someone books a demo and sandboxes or other low-touch customer experiences.28:38—The pair closes out the episode by emphasizing how important it is to know your customers intimately before you can leverage product-led growth.As always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website

“We don’t need customer research; we already know our customers.” “Research takes too long.” “Is qualitative research even valuable enough?” These objections to customer research are super common—every day, founders and teams use these excuses (and oh so many more) not to learn more from their customers. Maybe you’re wrestling with these objections yourself or trying to move others past them to get internal buy-in for customer research. Either way, here’s the bottom line: There’s no better way to gain the intel you need to grow your SaaS and improve conversions than by getting inside your customers' heads.In this episode of the Forget the Funnel podcast, Claire and Georgiana break down the four most common myths about customer research they’ve encountered. They talk through where they come from, how to get past them, and why foundational customer understanding is critical for every business decision you make.Discussed:The top four customer research objections.The importance of building a foundational customer understanding based on 10 to 12 conversations with recent, paying, and happy customers—and why you don’t need to spend endless months and tens of thousands of dollars on research.How do changes in your customers, market, product, and team make customer research all the more urgent? Key moments:1:32 — Claire sets the stage for the episode by outlining the four most common objections to customer research.3:18—Georgiana discusses the most common research objection: “We already know our customers.” Claire explains why founders often feel this way and the problem with leaning on early-stage intuition long-term.6:22 — Georgiana speaks to the similar objection that customer success or product teams frequently research or interviews with customers and why this misses the forest for the trees.10:42 — Claire shares the second most common customer research objection: “Research takes too much time.” Georgiana breaks down where this objection comes from. (Hint: It’s usually prior experiences with research projects on a massive scale.)13:18 — Georgiana explains what it can look like to gain foundational customer understanding with 10 to 12 customer interviews, along with quicker wins like running a qualitative customer survey or adding a question to your sign-up form.18:49 — Georgiana introduces the third objection, which shows up when people think 10 interviews couldn’t possibly be enough or want quantitative proof. Claire breaks down the context you need when running customer interviews and the importance of pattern saturation, which you can get from 10 to 12 interviews.25:01 —  The fourth and final objection comes when a product moves into a new market, and the team doesn’t think they can learn from their current customer base. Georgiana explains why this objection has become more common in recent years.33:54 — The pair ends the episode by pointing to other episodes of the podcast and resources that explore these topics and objections more in-depth.As always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website

From competitive analysis to NPS surveys to UX research, research can help you grow your business and revenue. But you're wasting your time if you jump into those research types without a foundational understanding of your ideal customer and what they’re trying to accomplish. You’ll end up down unhelpful or misleading paths that leave you with more questions than answers. As they say, you’ll be ‘missing the forest for the trees’.Starting with qualitative customer interviews—conversations with your best customers about what led them to your solution in the first place and the value you’re driving for them now–is the gold standard for a reason.  Customer interviews are how you reverse engineer their experience to find and acquire more customers like them. In this episode of the Forget the Funnel podcast, Claire and Georgiana get super tactical about the art of interviewing customers. They explain what it takes to interview well, the critical elements of a Jobs-to-Be-Done interview, and the pitfalls to avoid when you’re new to customer research.Discussed:How to pick the right customers to interview and the skills that make someone a great customer interviewer so you can choose the right team member to run them.The elements of an effective Jobs-to-Be-Done style interview and questions to ask.Mistakes you should avoid in customer research, how a question script can help, and how bringing in an outside expert can be an advantage for deeper learning with the added benefit to the team.Key Moments:1:32—Georgiana asks Claire to clarify why you would choose customer interviews over other customer research methods. Claire shares how learning from your ideal customers is the foundational research that helps you make strategic decisions.5:02—Claire explains how one client with a broad customer base chose the right customers to interview: They started with a survey to gather key data points and identify who had embedded a critical feature into their workflow.9:27 - Claire explains the “unfair advantage” some of your team members may have for customer interviews: a knack for active listening and navigating unpredictability without getting flustered. 10:10 - Georgiana asks Claire to break down the elements of a Jobs-to-Be-Done-style interview, and Claire shares about guiding the customer to explain what their life looked like before they “hired” your solution.  17:21 - Claire breaks down the pitfalls to avoid if your team is new to customer research. She recommends having a question script (one you adapt as you go) or outsourcing customer interviews to an expert. 19:22—Georgiana talks about why sensing a customer’s energy makes interviewing a task that AI won’t be able to take over for humans anytime soon.22:20—The pair finishes out the episode with their advice to founders about outsourcing customer interviews: You get the benefit of external expertise, and someone from your team can ride sidecar to upskill and do it themselves in the future.As always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website

One study found that 70% of people who sign up for a product log in once… and then never again. That’s why customer-led KPIs aren’t just about measuring when someone becomes a “customer” — they’re about measuring the critical customer outcomes that lead to high retention. To do that, you must focus on genuine customer value: getting them from their first moment of value to value realization, continued value and beyond. So, how do you define your own customer-led KPIs? You need to know what “job” your customers are hiring your solution to solve for them. You need to understand what matters to them to map that value to the specific parts of your product that deliver that value.In this episode of the Forget the Funnel Podcast — the second of two episodes on customer-led KPIs — Claire and Georgiana share how to build your KPIs around moments of value for your customers. They explain how to map the customer experience, share examples of customer-led KPIs, and explore how to rally your team around your new KPIs.Discussed:What your customer journey map isn’t telling you and how the three phases of the customer experience will help you operationalize growth.The critical importance of getting the evaluation phase KPIs right and how to leverage Jobs-to-be-Done to measure value realization.How to rally your team around customer-led KPIs and maximize their impact on growth.Key Moments:1:47 - Claire and Georgiana explore the difference between customer journey mapping and customer experience mapping.3:31 - Georgiana shares why the evaluation phase of the customer experience is critical for setting customer-led KPIs — and how many teams get it wrong. She also breaks down the importance of first value and value realization at this stage.7:09 - Claire asks Georgiana to talk through examples of customer-led KPIs, and Georgiana walks through a hypothetical example of how to tie a particular product feature to a moment of value.9:52 - Georgiana defines value realization (AKA reaching true product engagement) and what a corresponding KPI looks like.11:10 - Before your customers get to value realization, your only job is to help them hit those value-focused KPIs — so you shouldn’t be throwing every possible feature at them. Georgiana explains that once they’ve hit value realization, you can shift to helping them get additional value through additional features or expanding to other team members.14:06 - Claire asks Georgiana to speak about how to rally people around customer-led KPIs instead of letting those metrics sit on the shelf. (Hint: Customer-led KPIs are way more motivating than transactional measures of success.)16:27 - Another way to embed customer-led KPIs for your team? Evaluate your current customer experience and figure out what’s misaligned with your new KPIs, which will open new opportunities. 17:48 - Claire finishes the episode by sharing advice for more mature and nimble companies to gather data to implement and track customer-led KPIs.As always, you can learn more about Forget The Funnel here: Read the Forget The Funnel Book The AI book companion that comes free with the book Check out Forget the Funnel’s website