People of the Pod

Last month, we sat down with journalist and author Matti Friedman in a Jerusalem studio to talk about Leonard Cohen, the Israel-Diaspora relationship, and the turning point that was the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Selected by Vanity Fair as one of the best books of 2022, Friedman’s “Who by Fire: Leonard Cohen in the Sinai,” explores the late poet and singer’s concert tour on the front lines of the Yom Kippur War – a historic moment of introspection for the Jewish State that continues to reverberate through events we witness today.  *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  __ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Matti Friedman __ Show Notes: Listen: From the Black-Jewish Caucus to Shabbat and Sunday Dinners: Connecting Through Food and Allyship How to Tell Fact from Fiction About the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Live from Jerusalem: Exploring Israel and the Media with Matti Friedman Watch: Should Diaspora Jews Have a Say in Israeli Affairs?  Learn: Four Common Tough Questions on Israel 75 Years of Israel: How much do you know about the Jewish state? Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Matti Friedman: Manya Brachear Pashman:   Matti Friedman has joined us on this podcast multiple times. Last year, he gave us an essential lesson on how to tell fact from fiction about Israel, and when AJC held its global forum in Jerusalem in 2018, he joined us for our first live recording, so I could not pass through Jerusalem without looking him up, Especially after learning that the writer behind Shtisel is adapting Matti's latest book, “Who By Fire” about the late great Leonard Cohen's time on the front lines of the Yom Kippur War. He joins us now in a studio in the Talpiot neighborhood of Jerusalem. Matti, welcome to People of the Pod. Matti Friedman:   Thank you for having me. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So I take it you're a fan of Leonard Cohen, or just as a journalist you find him fascinating? Matti Friedman:   No, of course, I'm a fan of Leonard Cohen. First of all, I'm Canadian. So if you are Canadian, you really have no choice. You have to be a Leonard Cohen fan, and certainly if you're a Canadian Jew. We grew up listening to Leonard Cohen. So absolutely, I'm a big admirer of the man and his music. Manya Brachear Pashman:   What are your favorite songs? Matti Friedman:   Probably my favorite Leonard Cohen song is called “If it Be Your Will." Just a prayer that came out on a Cohen album in the 80s. But I love all the Cohen you know top 10- Suzanne and So Long Marianne, Famous Blue Raincoat and Chelsea Hotel. It's a very long list. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So I should clarify that your book is not a biography of Leonard Cohen. It's about just a few weeks of his life when he came in 1973, during the Yom Kippur War, and these few weeks were a real turning point in his life, also for Israel, but we can talk about that later. But I want to know, why is it important? Why do you think it's important for Leonard Cohen fans, for Jews, particularly Israelis, to know this story about him? Matti Friedman:   I think that those few weeks in the fall of 1973, when Cohen finds himself at the front of the Yom Kippur War, those weeks are really an incredible meeting of Israel and the diaspora, maybe one of the ultimate diaspora figures, Leonard Cohen, this kind of universal poet and creature of the village, and this product of a very specific moment in North American Jewish life, when Jews are really kind of bursting out of the ghetto and entering the mainstream. And we can think of names like Paul Simon and Bob Dylan, even Phil Ochs, and people like that. And Cohen is very much part of that.  And he comes to Israel and meets, I guess the other main trend in Jewish history, in the second half of the 20th century, which is the State of Israel, and Israelis, who are not bursting into, you know, a universal culture in the United States, they're trying to create a very specific Jewish culture–in Hebrew, in this very kind of tortured scrap of the Middle East.  And the meeting of those two sides, who have a very powerful connection to each other, but don't really understand each other. It's a very interesting meeting. And the fact that it happens at this moment of acute crisis, one of the darkest moments in Israel's history, which is the Yom Kippur War, that makes it even more powerful.  So I think if we take that snapshot, from October 1973, we get something very interesting about Israel, and about the Jewish world and about this artist. And in some ways, I think those weeks really encapsulate much of Leonard Cohen's story. So it's not a biography, it doesn't trace his life from birth to death. But it gives us something very deep about the guy by looking at him at this very intense and kind of traumatic moment. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Do you also think it sheds some light on the relationship between diaspora Jews and Israel? And how has that relationship changed and evolved since the 1970s? Matti Friedman:   When Cohen embarks on this strange journey to the war, which, I mean, it's a long story, and I tell it in the book, but it starts on a Greek island or he's kind of holed up. He's in a crisis, and he's unhappy with his domestic life and he's unhappy with his creative life and he kind of needs to escape. So he gets on a ferry from the island and gets on an airplane from Athens and inserts himself into this war, by mistake, not really intending to do it. And he says in this manuscript that he writes about that time, which is unpublished until, until my own book, I published segments of it.  He says, I'm going to my myth home. That's how he describes Israel. He uses this very interesting phrase myth home. And it's hard to understand exactly what he means. But I think many Jewish listeners will understand kind of almost automatically what that means. Israel is not necessarily your home. And it's possible that you've never even been there. But you have this sense that it is your mythical home or some alternate universe where you belong. And of course, that makes the relationship very fraught. It's a lot of baggage on a relationship with a country that is, after all, a foreign country.  And Cohen lands in Israel and has a very powerful, but also very confusing time and leaves quite conflicted about it. And I think that is reflective, more generally of the experience of many Jews from the diaspora who come here with ideas about the country and then are forced to admit that those ideas have very little connection to reality. And it's one reason I think that I often meet Jews here from, you know, from North America, and they're not even fascinated by the country, but they're kind of thrown off by it, because it doesn't really function in the way they expect. It’s a country in the Middle East. It's very different from Jewish life in North America. And as time goes on, those two things are increasingly disconnected from each other. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Yeah. Which is something that I think you say, Israelis say repeatedly, that lots of people have opinions about Israel and decisions that are made and how it's run. But they have no idea what life is like here, right? That's part of the disconnect. And the reason why there's so much tumult. Matti Friedman:   Yes, and runs in the other direction, too, of course. Israelis just have less and less idea of what animates Jews in the United States. So the idea that we're one people, and we should kind of automatically understand each other. That just doesn't work anymore. I think in the years after the Second World War, it might have worked better because people were more closely connected by family ties. So you'd have two brothers from Warsaw or whatever, and one would go to Rehovot, and one would go to Brooklyn, but they were brothers. And then in the next generation, you know, their children were cousins, and they kind of knew something about each other, but a few generations have gone by, and it's much more infrequent to find people who have Israeli cousins, or American cousins, you know, it might be second cousins or third cousins, but the familial connections have kind of frayed and because the communities are being formed by completely different sets of circumstances, it's much harder for Americans to understand Israelis and for Israelis to understand Americans. And we're really seeing that play out more and more in the communication or miscommunication between the two big Jewish communities here in the United States. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So this is my first trip to Israel. And many people told me that I would never be the same after this trip. Was that true for Leonard Cohen? Matti Friedman:   I think it was, I think it was a turning point in his life. Of course, I wrote a book about it. I would have to say that, even if it weren't true, but I happen to think that it is true. He comes here at a moment of a real kind of desperation, he had announced that he was retiring from music that year. So he had this string of hits, and he was a major star of the 60s and early 70s. And those really famous Cohen songs that I mentioned, most of them had already come out and he'd been playing at the biggest music festivals at the Isle of White, which was a bigger festival than Woodstock. And he was a big deal. And, and he just given up, he felt that he had hit a wall and he no longer had anything to say. And he was 39 years old. That's pretty old for a rock star. And he was in those days, of course, people are dying at 27. So he kind of thought he was washed up. And he came to Israel. And he writes in this manuscript, this very strange manuscript that he wrote, and then shelved, that he thinks that Israel is a place where he might be able to be born again, or just saying, again, he writes both of those thoughts. And in a very weird way, it happens.  So he’s too sophisticated a character to tell us exactly how that happened, or to ever say that he went to Israel and was saved or changed in some way. Leonard Cohen would never give us that moment that of course, as a journalist I'm looking for but they won't give us all we can do is look at the fact that he had announced his retirement before the war, came home from this war very rattled, not at all waving the Israeli flag and singing the national anthem or anything like that, but he came back invigorated in some way.  And a few months after that war, he releases one of his best albums, which is called “New Skin for the Old Ceremony.” Which is a reference, of course, to circumcision, which is itself a kind of wink toward rebirth. And that album includes Chelsea Hotel and Lover Lover Lover and Who by Fire and he's back on the horse and he goes on to have this absolutely incredible career that lasts until he's 80 years old and beyond. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So let's talk about Lover Lover Lover, and the line of that song. You had interviewed a former soldier on the frontlines in the Yom Kippur War. He had heard Leonard Cohen sing, was very moved by that song, which was composed on an Israeli Air Force Base, I believe originally. And then the album comes out and he hears it again. And something is different. The soldier is not happy about that. Can you talk a little bit about how you confirmed that?  Matti Friedman:   Right, so I spent a lot of time trying to track down the soldiers who had seen Leonard Cohen during this very weird concert tour that he ends up giving on the Sinai front of the Yom Kippur War. And it's this series of concerts, these very small concerts, mostly for just small units of soldiers who are in the sand and suddenly Leonard Cohen shows up in a jeep and plays music for them. And it's kind of a hallucinatory scene.  And one of the soldiers told me that he will never forget the song that Cohen sang, and it was on the far side of the Suez Canal. So the Israeli army having kind of fallen back in the first week and a half of the war has crossed the Suez Canal, in the great counter attack that changes the course of the war, and now they're fighting on Egyptian territory. And one night, on that, on the far side of the canal, he meets Leonard Cohen, it's just kind of sitting on a helmet in the sand playing guitar, and he sang a song that would later become famous, but no one knew it at the time, because it had just been written. As you said, it was written for an audience of Israeli pilots at an Air Force base a few weeks before, or a few days before.  And the song’s lyrics address the Israeli soldiers as brothers. That's what the soldier remembered. And he said, I'll never forget it. He called us his brothers. And that was a big deal for the Israelis, to hear an international star like Leonard Cohen, say,  I'm a member of this family, and you're my brothers. And that was a great memory. But there's no verse like that in the song Lover, Lover, Lover. And there's no reference at all that's explicit to Israeli soldiers. And the word brothers does not appear in the song. Manya Brachear Pashman: At least the one on the album, the song on the album. Matti Friedman: On the album, right. So that is the only one that was known at the time that I was writing the book. And then I kind of set it aside, I just figured that it was a strange memory that was, you know, mistaken or manufactured. And I didn't think much more about it. But I was going through Cohen's old notebooks and the Cohen archive in Los Angeles, which is where many of his documents are kept. And he had a notebook in his pocket throughout the war, and was writing down notes and writing down lyrics and writing on people's phone numbers. And in in the notebook, I found the first draft of  Lover, Lover, Lover, and this verse, which had somehow disappeared from the song and the verse is a really powerful expression of identification, not uncomplicated identification, but definitely sympathy for the Israelis who was traveling with, he was traveling with a group of Israeli musicians, he was wearing something that looked a lot like an Israeli uniform, he was asking people to call him by his Hebrew name, which was Eliezer Cohen.  So he was definitely, he had kind of gone native. And the verse, the verse goes, ‘I went down to the desert to help my brothers fight. I knew that they weren't wrong. I knew that they weren't right. But bones must stand up straight and walk and blood must move around. And men go making ugly lines across the holy ground.’  It's quite a potent verse. And it definitely places Cohen on one side of the Yom Kippur War. And when he records the song, a few months later, that verse is gone. So he obviously made a different decision about how to locate himself in the experience. And ultimately, the experience of the war kind of disappears from the Cohen story. He doesn't talk about it. Later on, he very rarely makes any explicit reference to it. The Cohen biographies mention it in passing, but don't make a big deal of it. And I think that's in part because he  always played it down.  And when that soldier Shlomi Groner, who I call the soldier, but he's going into his seventies, but you know, for me, he's a soldier. He heard that song when it came out on the radio, and he was waiting for that verse where Cohen called Israeli soldiers, his brothers and the verse was gone. And he never forgave Leonard Cohen for it, for erasing that expression of tribal solidarity.  And in fact, the years after the war, 1976, Cohen is playing the song in Paris, you can actually find this on YouTube. And he introduces the song to a French audience by saying, he admits that he wrote the song in the war in Sinai, and he says, he wrote the song for the Egyptians, and the Israelis, in that order. So he was very careful about, you know, where he placed himself, and he was a universal poet. He couldn't be on one side of a war, you couldn't be limited to any particular war, he was trying to address the human soul.  And he was aware of that contradiction, which I think is a very Jewish contradiction. Is our Judaism best expressed by tribal solidarity, or is it best expressed in some kind of universal message about the shared humanity of anyone who might be reading a Leonard Cohen poem? So that tension is very much present for him and it's present for many of us. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So he replaces the line though with watching the children, he goes down to watch the children fight. Matti Friedman:   So before he erases the whole verse, he starts fiddling with it. And we can actually see this in the notebook because we can see him crossing out words and adding words. So he has this very strong sentence that says, I went down to the desert to help my brothers fight, which suggests active participation in this war and, and then we see that he's erase that line held my brothers fight, and he's replaced it with, I went on to the desert to watch the children fight.  So now he's not helping, and it's not his brothers, he's kind of a parent at the sandbox watching some other people play in the sand. So he's taken a step back, he's taken himself out of the picture. And ultimately, that whole verse goes into the memory hold, and it only surfaces. When I found it, and I had the amazing experience of sending it to the soldier who'd heard it and didn't quite remember the words, he just remembered the word brothers. And over the years, I think he thought maybe he was mistaken, he wasn't 100% sure that he was remembering correctly and I had the opportunity to say, I found the verse, you're not crazy, here's the verse. It was quite a moment for him. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Yeah, confirmation, validation. Certainly not an expression of solidarity anymore, but I read it as an expression of critique of war, right. Your government's sending sons and daughter's off to fight you know, that kind of critique, but it changes it when you know that he erased one sentiment and replaced it with another. Matti Friedman:   Right, even finding the Yom Kippur War in the song now is very complicated, although when you know where it was written, then the song makes a lot more sense. When you think a song called Lover Lover Lover would be a love song, but it's not really if you listen to the lyrics.  He says, “The Spirit of the song may rise up true and free. May be a shield for you, a shield against the enemy”. It’s a weird lyric for a love song. But if you understand that he's writing for an audience of Israeli pilots are being absolutely shredded in the first week of the Yom Kippur War, it makes sense. The words start to make sense the kind of militaristic tone of the words and even the kind of rhythmic marching quality of the melody, it starts to make more sense, if we know where it was written, I think Cohen would probably deny. Cohen never wanted to be pinned down by journalism, you know, he wasn't writing a song about the Yom Kippur War. And I don't think he'd like what I'm doing, which is trying to pin him down and tie him to specific historical circumstances. But, that's what I'm doing. And I think it's very interesting to try to locate his art in a specific set of circumstances, which are, the Yom Kippur war, this absolute dark moment for Israel, a Jewish artist who's very preoccupied with his own Judaism, and who grows up in this really kind of rich and deep Jewish tradition in Montreal, and then kind of escapes it, but can never quite escape it and doesn't really want to escape it, or does he want to escape it and, and then here he is, in this incredible Jewish moment with the Israeli Army in 1973.  And we even have a picture of him standing next to general Ariel Sharon, who is maybe the other symbolic Jew of the 20th century, right? You have Leonard Cohen, who is this universal artists, this kind of, you know, man of culture and a kind of a dissolute poet and and you have this uniform general, this kind of Jewish warrior, this kind of reborn new Jew of the Zionist imagination, and we have a photograph of them standing next to each other in the desert. I mean, it's quite an amazing moment. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Yeah. I love that you use the word hallucinatory earlier to describe the soldier coming upon Leonard Cohen in the desert, because it reminded me that it was not Leonard Cohen's first tour of sorts in Israel. He had been in Israel the year before, 1972, gave a concert in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, very different shows. Can you speak to that? Matti Friedman:   So Cohen was here a year before the war. And what's amazing is that you can actually see the concerts because there was a documentary filmmaker with him named Tony Palmer. And there's a documentary that ultimately comes out very briefly, that is shelved because Cohen hates it, and then resurfaces a couple of decades later, it's called Bird on a Wire. And it's worth seeing. And you can see the concert in Tel Aviv. And then the concert in Jerusalem the next day, which are the end of this problematic European tour, which kind of goes awry, as far as Cohen is concerned.  In Tel Aviv, they have to stop a concert in the middle because there's a riot in the audience and for kind of strange technical reason, which was that the arena in Tel Aviv had decided to keep the audience really far away from the stage and people tried to get close to Leonard Cohen and Cohen wanted them to come closer to the stage because they were absurdly far from the musicians and they tried to move closer but the security guards wouldn't let them and they start, you know, people start fighting, and Cohen's begging them to calm down.  And you can see this in the, in the documentary and then ultimately he leaves the stage, he says, you know, it's just not I can't perform like this, and he and the whole band just walk off the stage, and you get the impression that this country is on the brink of total chaos, like it's a place that's out of control. And then the next day, he's in Jerusalem for the last concert of this tour. And the concert also goes awry. But this time, it's Cohen's fault. And he is onstage, and you can see that he can’t focus, like he just can’t put it together. And in the documentary, you can see that he took acid before the show. So it might have had something to do with that. But also, it's just the fact that he's in Jerusalem. And for him, that's a big deal. And he just can't treat it like a normal place. It's not a normal concert. So there's, there's so much riding on it, that it's too much for him, and he just stops playing in the middle of a concert. And he starts talking to the audience about the Kabbalah. And it's an amazing speech, it's totally off the cuff.  It's not something that he prepared, but he starts to explain that, in the Kabbalistic tradition, in order for God to be seated on his throne, Adam and Eve need to face each other, or the man and the woman need to face each other in order for the divine presence to be enthroned. And he says, my male and female sides aren't facing each other, so I can't get off the ground. And it's a terrible thing to have happen in Jerusalem. That's what he says. And then he leaves, he says, I'm gonna give you your money back, and he leaves. And instead of rioting, which is what you'd expect them to do, or getting really angry, or leaving, the audience starts to sing, “Haveinu Shalom Alechem,” that song from summer camp that everyone knows, I think they just assume that he would know it.  And in the documentary, you see him in the dressing room trying to kind of get himself together. And hears the audience singing, a couple thousand young Israelis singing the song out in the auditorium, and he goes back out on stage and kind of just beams at that. He just kind of can't believe it, and just smiling out at them. They're entertaining him, but he's on the stage. And they're singing to him, and then the band comes back on. And they give this incredible show that ends with everyone crying. You see Cohen’s crying and the band's crying and he says later that the only time that something like that had ever happened to him before was in Montreal when he was playing a show for an audience that included his family. So there was a lot going on for Cohen in Israel, it wasn't a normal place. It wasn't just a regular gig. And that's all present in his brain when he comes back the following year for the war. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Makes that weird decision to get on the ferry, and come to Israel make a little more sense. I had tickets to see Leonard Cohen in 2013. He was in Chicago, and Pope Benedict the 16th decided to resign. And as the religion reporter, I had to give up those tickets and go to Rome on assignment. And I really regret that because he died in 2016. I never got the chance to see him live. Did you ever get the chance to see him live?  Matti Friedman:   I wonder if we should add that to the long list of, you know, Jewish claims against Catholicism, but I guess we can let it slide. I never got to see him. And I regret it to this day, of course, when he came to Israel in 2009 for this great concert that ended up being his last concert here. I had twins who were barely a year old. And I was kind of dysfunctional and hadn't slept in a long time. And I just couldn't get my act together to go. And that's when I got the idea for this book for the first time. And I said, well, you know, just catch him the next time he comes. You know, the guy was in his late 70s. There wasn't gonna be a next time. So it was a real lapse of judgment, which I regret of course. Manya Brachear Pashman:   I do wonder if I should have gone to Rome for that unprecedented moment in history to cover that, kind wish I had been at the show. So you do think that the Jerusalem show played a role in him returning to Israel when it was under attack? Matti Friedman:   Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, he had this very again, complicated, powerful, not entirely positive experience in Israel. And he'd also met a woman here. And that also became clear when I was researching the book that there was, there was a relationship that began when he was here in 1972, and continued. He had a few contacts here, and it wasn't a completely foreign place. And he had some memory of it and some memory of it being a very powerful experience. But when he came in ‘73, he wasn't coming to play. So he didn't come with his guitar. He didn't bring any instruments. He didn't come with anyone. He came by himself. So there is no band. There's no crew, there's no PR people. He understands that there's some kind of crisis facing the Jewish people and he needs to be here.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   I interviewed Mishy Harman yesterday about the Declaration of Independence, the series that [the I`srael Story podcast] are doing, and he calls it one of Israel's last moments of consensus. We are at a very historic moment right now. How much did this kind of centrifugal force of the Yom Kippur War, where everybody was kind of scattered to different directions, very different ways of soul searching, very Cohen-esque. How much of that has to do with where Israel is now, 50 years later? Matti Friedman:   That's a great question. The Yom Kippur war is this moment of crisis that changes the country and the country is a different place after the Yom Kippur War. So until 73, it's that old Israel where the leadership is very clear. It's the labor Zionist leadership. It's the founders of the country, Ben Gurion and Golda Meir, and the people who kind of willed this country into existence against long odds and won this incredible victory in the 1967 War. And then it's all shattered by this catastrophe in 1973. And even though Israel wins the war and the end, it's a victory that feels a lot like a defeat, and 2600 soldiers are killed in three weeks in a country of barely 3 million people and many more wounded and the whole country is kind of shocked. And it takes a few years for things to play out. But basically, the old Israeli consensus is shattered. And within a few years within the war, the Likud wins an election victory for the first time. And it's a direct result of, of a loss of faith and leadership after the Yom Kippur War. That's 1977.  And then you have all kinds of different voices that emerge in Israel. So you have, you know, you have Likud. You have the voice of Israelis, who came from the Arab world who didn't share the background of, you know, Eastern Europe and Yiddish and who had a different kind of Judaism and a different kind of Zionism and they begin to express themselves in a more forceful way and you have Israelis who are demanding peace now. You know, on the left, and you have a settlement movement, the religious settlement movement really kind of becomes empowered and emboldened after the Yom Kippur War after the labor Zionist leadership loses its confidence and that's when you really start seeing movements like Gush Emunim pop up in the West Bank with this messianic script and so, so the the fracturing of that that consensus really happens in wake of Yom Kippur war and you can kind of see it in in the music, which is an interesting way of looking at it because the music until 73 had really been this folk music that still maybe the only place that still sees it as Israeli music might be American Jewish summer camp, where it kind of retains its, its, its hold and yeah, that those great old songs that were sung around the campfire and the songs of early Israel and that was very much the music that dominated the airwaves. After the Yom Kippur War, it's different, the singers start expressing themselves a lot less in the collective we and much more in using the word I and talking about their own soul and you hear a lot more about God after 73 than you did before. And the country really becomes a much more heterogeneous place and a much more difficult place, I think, to run and with that consensus, you're talking about the Declaration of Independence. And that series, by the way, Israel Story, which I highly recommend, it's a wonderful series about an incredible document, which we still should be proud of, and which we should pay much more attention to than we do. But when do we have consensus, when we're under incredible pressure from the outside. The Declaration of Independence is signed, you know, as we face the threat of invasion by fighter armies.  So that's basically what it takes to get the Jews to sit down and agree with each other. And, you know, there are these years of crisis and poverty after the 48 war into the 60s. And that kind of keeps the consensus more or less in place, and then it fractures. And we're in a country where it's much easier to be many different things, you know, you can be ultra-Orthodox, and you can be Mizrachi, and you can be gay, and you can be all kinds of things that you couldn't really be here in the 60s.  But at the same time, the consensus is so fractured, that we can barely, you know, form a coherent political system that works to solve the problems of the public. And we're really saying that in a very dramatic and disturbing way in the dysfunction, in the Knesset and in our political system, which is, you know, has become so extreme.  The political system is simply incapable of a constructive role in the society and has moved from solving the problems of the society to creating problems for a society that probably doesn't have that many problems. And it's all a reflection of this kind of fracturing of the consensus and this disagreement on what it means to be Israeli what the meaning of the state is, once you don't have those labor Zionists saying, you know, we are a part of a global proletarian revolution, and the kibbutz is at the center of our national ethos. Okay, we don't have that. But then what is this place? And if you grab 10 Israelis on the street outside the studio, they'll give you 10 different answers. And increasingly, the answers are, are at odds with each other, and Israelis are at odds with each other. And the government instead of trying to ease those divisions, is exacerbating them for political gain. So you're right, this is a very important and I think, very dark moment for the society. Manya Brachear Pashman:   And do you trace it back to that kind of individualistic approach that Cohen brought with him, and that the war, not that he introduced it to Israel, and it's all his fault, that the war, and its very dark outcome, dark victory, if you will, produced? Matti Friedman:   I don't want to be too deterministic about it. But definitely, that is the moment of fracture. The old labor Zionist leadership would have faded anyway. And just looking at the world, that kind of ethos, and that ideology is kind of gone everywhere, not just in Israel. But definitely the moment that does it here is that war, and we're very much in post-1973 Israel.  Which in some ways is good, again, a more pluralistic society is good. And I'm happy that many identities that were kind of in the basement before ‘73 are out of the basement. But we have not managed to find a replacement for that old unifying ideology. And we’re really feeling it right now. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Thank you so much, Matti, for joining us. Matti Friedman:   Thank you very, very much. That was great.

Join us for an exclusive conversation featuring three women leading transformation in the Middle East. Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Chairperson of the Israeli Export Institute, speaks to promoting Israeli exports and fostering economic growth; Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, a Senior Envoy at The Jewish Agency for Israel, discusses fostering connections and supporting Jewish communities in the region; and Aviva Steinberger, Director of Innovation Diplomacy at Start-Up Nation Central, touches on harnessing innovation and technology for positive change. Led by AJC Abu Dhabi Program Director Reva Gorelick onstage at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, this conversation offers valuable insights into the transformative efforts shaping the Middle East today. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  ___ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Reva Gorelick, Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, Aviva Steinberger ___ Show Notes: Listen: People of the Pod: 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?': Exploring Israel's Declaration of Independence with People of the Pod and Israel Story Watch: AJC Global Forum: Women Driving Change in the Middle East - video of the full session, as heard on this week’s episode. More sessions from AJC Global Forum 2023 Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, Aviva Steinberger: Manya Brachear Pashman: The role women play in pursuing peace and progress in the Middle East is too often overlooked. But my colleague AJC Abu Dhabi Program Director Reva Gorelick is not one to leave such an important stone unturned. At AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv she led a fascinating conversation on "Women Driving Change in the Middle East." This week’s podcast brings you a portion of that conversation with Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Chairperson of the Israeli Export Institute, Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, a Senior Envoy at The Jewish Agency for Israel, and Aviva Steinberger, the Director of Innovation Diplomacy at Start-Up Nation Central. We open with Reva posing a question to Gadeer. Reva Gorelick: Gadeer, in your career, you have broken barriers in many ways. And I'm going to read because there's so many ways that I want to make sure that I get them right, as the first non Jewish broadcast anchorwoman here, both in Hebrew and Arabic, and then as the first Druze woman to serve as a member of Knesset, what have you learned about the appetite for change and for representation of historically marginalized communities in this part of the world specifically? And how did these trends track with what you're now seeing as an emissary for the Jewish Agency in America? Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh:   Good morning. So long story short, so much, I learned so much. I'm still learning, I'm still growing, I'm still listening. And I'm still amazed to see the social impact of simply our existence, simply of being or living or achieving or talking to each other. And look at us today, this morning. The first of us, each one of us, based in different countries, speaking different language, different religion, different fields, but we are social agents. And this is what my father told me, always, as a child, you are a social agent. You are not privileged to live your life in a way that you are consuming reality, you have to shape reality.  And I did social activism even without knowing that I'm doing social activism. I broadcasted my first TV show when I was 12 years old. I believe in people, I believe that we have the ability to change reality. And then being in those positions as first, as firs, as first, when you are how I always introduce myself by saying hello, my name is Gadeer. I am an Israeli but not a Jew, I am an Arab but not a Muslim, I am a minority within the Arab minority, my mother tongue is Arabic, married religion is Druze. I'm a proud Israeli citizen..good luck. So having such a unique identity, and being the first in those positions is something that a stranger would not understand the complexity and the beauty that you have. And so I started to write my book because I'm afraid that we cannot have, we don't have enough time to talk about it.  But I learned so much the most important thing that I learned is engage, engage, engage. It doesn't matter where it doesn't matter how it doesn't matter with whom. Engage as a social agent and activate your role in shaping public opinion. I had so many stories in my life, Reva, in which I was amazed and telling myself, Yes, we can. Yes, we can. Being the only woman in so many rooms, I'm sure that Ayelet and Aviva also understand what does that mean to be the only woman. Nobody asked you if you want to represent women, you are a representative of women. So talk, represent, share their stories. And two weeks ago, we were in DC and we initiated some of the prestigious forum that you will hear about, and we were 18 successful leaders in Washington DC, but guess what? I was the only woman. And I told them guys, I got used to this in my villages in the Druze community, we are still a conservative community. Okay, but in DC in the 21st century, I am the only woman? Hey, wake up. Then I understood that okay, we did so much, we achieved so much in the last decades, last century, but we are not there yet. You know, like reminding ourselves in some countries we have no ability to vote, we have no ability to even, no right to be elected. Okay, we did, we promoted, we leverage our skills we went, we learned, we achieved. But even now today, we are not there. We don't have yet absolute gender equality.  Look at the numbers. In our current government, there are zero CEOs of ministries, five of 33 ministers are women. 25% of MK members of parliament today are women. We are talking about 30 from 120. So the up-bottom policy is also, you know, reflecting the atmosphere. There are huge ramifications of who we are, who is working with me, who are my colleagues. So we are trying to lead. We are the head, the CEO, the founder, but we need to work much more hard to achieve. And this is our role.  So the most important advice, in my opinion, that I can share here is lead. Don't wait for opportunity, take the opportunity, and I am really trying to target here, women, especially young women, excuse me, men, you have your exclusive club, you take care of each other. I believe that behind every woman, there is no man. There is a circle of women to support her, to give her the chances, to help her, to leverage her skills, to teach her. And I believe that it is our role as leaders at first, to empower women to be there for each other and to take the number much higher.  Because so many researchers found that and it's proven that our ability to read reality is much better than men. We see the macro perspective, the empathy, the way of dealing things, the multitask. And all those things affect the atmosphere in our companies, in our organizations, in politics, in the Knesset. So do it, engage and lead and don't wait for the opportunity. Take the opportunity and lead. Reva Gorelick: Thank you. I want to just follow up on one point that you brought up, Ayelet, I'm gonna go off script a little bit and just ask, you brought up a question about representation in government. And we're not there in most parts of the world, we're not nearly anywhere where we where we need to be and where we should be at this point. When we're looking at government representation and gender parity in government, what should we be striving for? And how do you see that gender parity and representation as a barometer for social change and policy change? Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin: I think it is a little bit frustrating to admit the truth. We felt that we were going forward, and then we were kind of pulled back. And it's really up to us. I've got to say something, and I've got to be very frank about it. Politics is a shitty business. I worked with Yitzchak Rabin when I was 20 years old. And at 25, I had so much political power, I couldn't believe it. And I still didn't run for the Knesset, because of the men around me, you know, for them. I was 25 years old. Why should I run for the Knesset? Nowadays, it's much more reasonable to do so, to make such a crazy decision.  But then I decided to go to the Knesset only after I already had three kids, a full career, a lawyer and board member and owner of a company, everything, that's when I decided, okay, now I'm gonna bring everything into the home, you know, and run to the Knesset. And it's a very, very difficult and non rewarding life. Even today, I tell people, I'm a politician, because I don't want people to think that politics is such a bad thing, you know, it's so important to understand, Gadeer, forgive me, she's also a politician, you know, this is not a bad thing.  You know, this is, you know, the kind of my IP, you know, that's what I bring to the, to the table, my ability to speak to people and my ability to solve problems to, to do a lot of things, you know, that probably people with, with different skills, other people will be scientists and doctors, I really, really wanted to be an MD, but that's for another session. But what we need to do is make sure that from the very, very start at kindergarten, I'm not educating my daughter, I'm educating her brothers. Her brothers need to know that she can be Prime Minister, if she would like. That she could do anything that she could want. That's the idea. Because we used to say, once upon a time for socialization, okay, so let's take care of the girls. Nuh-uh. We need to take care of all of them, of both genders, because this is what we need to do.  Because till today, and especially in a very, very complex society, like Israel, where we have both very, very strong liberalism, alongside in spite of you know, in spite of the situation in the Knesset, still very, very strong Bible values that, you know, the values that we share, and conservatism, that is not only Jewish, okay. I mean, there's no, no doubt there is, you know, is there a strong draft of conservatism from the Jewish part, but also we know well from the non Jewish parts. So the idea is, you know, people like Gadeer, I never heard you speak about what your father told you, that you should change reality. But that's exactly it. It's up to us to shape reality and shaping reality, from Facebook, from Meta, that Sheryl Sandberg used to say, speak at the table. You know, when you go through board minutes, you see that the women don't speak as much as the men. It's not only Okay, so we got to the table, but do we speak there?  And I noticed once you know that Shabbat dinners, my daughter doesn't speak as much as her brothers. She's kind of reluctant. Maybe she'll make a mistake. Maybe she'll make it out and I'll correct her. God forbid I'm a terrible mom in these things. You know, I never have patience. So I say to the boys, I say, now you sush. And I give her the front seat. And this is so important to do. And up until, you know, we'll realize that and act on it, we will unfortunately, especially in such a divided society, like our own, we’ll stay in the same situation.  As long as people for instance, in primary parties, people still vote for one woman, you know this like, that's like the one token woman that we vote for. Now, on the other side, on the left wing, it's not as much as that. But again, we don't see as many women. I think in Yesh Atid actually, Yair [Lapid] made a huge effort. Also, Benny [Gantz] made a huge effort to bring more women on board. But these are different. You know, these are different kinds of parties. By the way, if you ask me, what's better for women? Nowadays, primaries or non primaries, you'd be surprised to hear: non primaries. Non primaries. Primaries are not necessarily the best way to bring women to the front seat. Reva Gorelick: Thank you for sharing that. And bringing that into the conversation of you, I want to come back to you. Aviva, you hold the role of Director of Innovation Diplomacy. It's not a phrase that I had heard much before we started having these conversations. And I'd love for other people to hear about it some more. From your experience in Israel's tech and startup world. Can you talk to us about the cascading effects of empowering women to be agents for change in their respective fields? Aviva Steinberger: Yeah, so innovation diplomacy is a made up term. And you know, if you think about science, diplomacy, or economic diplomacy, that's generally diplomacy that's meant to further goals around science and economics. And in this case, you're looking at focusing on innovation to further diplomacy. The idea is leveraging what's coming out of Israel in the tech sector, leveraging this brand that we have as the startup nation, to build ties. So with the signing of the Abraham Accords, really created the opportunity for normalization, as we know, and countries in the region are investing a lot of money, billions of dollars, to create their own innovation ecosystems.  And they're looking at their neighbor, Israel, and Israel as a now welcome citizen of the region that everybody can play with. And saying, How can we learn from the Israel journey, Israel's journey over the last 30 years going from a resource economy where our main export was oranges, to a knowledge based economy where our main export is anyone know? Tech. Yep.  So digital, we call it digital oranges, right? The drones flying over the citrus fields and around the world, measuring the health of the fruit in the trees, etc. So really this journey and what went into building an ecosystem? What did the government do 30 years ago that enabled and incentivized foreign investment, where's the academia, where is tech transfer happening both at the university level, also in hospital levels, where what is the role of incubators and accelerators and investors. So looking at the whole ecosystem, sharing that knowledge and using that, as what I call a frictionless tool to engage with our neighbors in the region, because if you're talking about some of our shared challenges, I mentioned before, water security, and energy security and the impacts of extreme weather. Those issues don't know geographic boundaries.  And so we are all dealing, especially in the region, one of the most vulnerable to climate change, for example. By the way, in America, climate change is very politicized. In the region, it is not at all because if you don't pay attention to the impacts of climate change in the region, your people aren't going to have clean water, they're not going to have food, they're not going to have energy, electricity. And so these are not political issues. These are what I call frictionless issues, that we can sit around the table and say, we must collaborate in order to find solutions.  So innovation diplomacy is really about focusing on the role that innovation plays to create these relationships. As it relates to women. I think women play, can play and do play a unique role into driving this forward. First of all, you know, we spoke about it a little bit and Gadeer, you mentioned this idea of women being social change agents. There's something I mean, I don't think this is unique and exclusive to women, but it's definitely emphasized in women and when we walk into a room, as professionals, we are wearing a lot of hats.  You might not see them, but I think everybody on this stage is wearing a number of hats. Some of us are politicians, we're leaders in our communities, in our societies, in our companies, on boards. But we're also daughters and sisters potentially and mothers, some of us and friends, and maybe the head of a kindergarten parent group that has to worry about making sure everybody has the cake for the end of the year party. I mean, these are all things happening at once in our heads. And that’s just my own. I'm sorry. I don't mean to project. Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh:   The Sarah Jessica Parker cloud. Aviva Steinberger: Yeah, exactly. And I think the invitation that we're putting out to women and the engagements that we have is, bring all of those hats with you into a room. I mean, sometimes they're not necessarily relevant but the engagement at the personal level, at the business level, at the values level, sharing ideas for the vision of what the future, the region could look like. That's really where the connection I mean, I witnessed and sorry, I'm going to share I witnessed and embrace between these two friends who hadn't seen each other in a long time. And I overheard Gadeer say this is the hug of two strong women. That's something unique to women.  And, I think if we create the space where that happens, those ties, then feed into trusting networks, where I know that my friend, who I just met last month and spent two and a half days with, who is running a business in Nigeria, and is looking for funding. And I'm connecting with a funder in the UAE who's looking for women-led ag-tech businesses, I'm suddenly making that connection and putting them in touch. And you create these networks of trust that create opportunity. And so it's an opportunity that leads to more women sitting around the table making decisions on investments, more women sitting around the table making decisions around what kind of solutions to pursue, and where these cross regional, cross border synergies could happen.  And that I believe in my heart of hearts, is where we're charting a path to a new future for the region. I don't think it's naive to say, we are on the cusp of a new dynamic in the Middle East. Because of these opportunities, and because of these opportunities to engage. I will also say just in terms of numbers-wise. Globally, women representation we spoke about in politics, but women representation, as CEOs and founders of companies, is an abysmal 8% cap, no matter where you go, you're gonna hit that 8-9% number. When I first heard this, I immediately started checking our stats in Israel, because I was like, that's, that can't be in Israel. Israel is just hovering around 10. And we are a global leader.  This is an improvement. And you're talking about after seeing efforts. And if you look at the numbers coming out of the universities, women are very well represented today at the academic level and computer sciences. You're talking about graduates that are hovering around 50%, if not more at some university. So you think, okay, you know, we're charting a path for a better future. But that doesn't translate. The reality doesn't translate into seeing more women, founding companies, leading companies. And that is a gap that needs to be addressed. And the jury's still out on what's the silver bullet to get there. But I think it is in creating opportunities.  And Ayelet also spoke about this, this mentoring, I think, in particular in the region. I mean, from the United States, I'm American, living in Israel, for the last 25 years, I have not had a challenge finding women to model, women to reach out to and say, you know, I can track this path. And this is where I can see myself being as a future leader. But women in the region don't necessarily have that network, and creating these networks where you can access a vision for what future female leadership looks like and see it and get there and not be the only woman in the room, that has tremendous power. And that's really what we're driving to see in the business and tech community. Manya Brachear Pashman: If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for our live recording from Tel Aviv with one of Israel’s top podcasts, Israel Story. Host Mishy Harman and I joined the grandson of Moshe Kol, one of the 37 signers of Israel’s Declaration of Independence as part of Israel Story’s latest series, “Signed, Sealed, Delivered?” Don’t miss it.

Two of the Jewish world’s leading podcasts, People of the Pod and Israel Story, are teaming up to bring you inside the making of ‘Signed, Sealed, Delivered?’ – the latest series from Israel Story that explores the lives of the signatories of Israel’s Declaration of Independence and their descendants. Recorded live at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, the episode features Mishy Harman, host of Israel Story, and Eran Peleg, the grandson of signatory Moshe Kol (born Moshe Kolodny). Tune in to hear Eran’s lasting memories of his grandfather, the strong Zionist values he instilled in his family, and why the Declaration of Independence matters 75 years later. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  ___ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Mishy Harman and Eran Peleg (42:35) Yehudit Kol Inbar and Mishy Harman  ___ Show Notes: Listen: People of the Pod: Israeli President Isaac Herzog in Conversation with AJC CEO Ted Deutch People of the Pod: Two Ukrainian Refugees Reflect on Escaping War, and Life in Israel– Live from AJC Global Forum 2023 Israel Story: Episode 89 - Moshe Kol  Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Mishy Harman and Eran Peleg: Manya Brachear Pashman:   As many of our listeners know, People of the Pod recorded not just one but two episodes in front of a live audience at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv. We also took the show on the road and did a few more interviews in Tel Aviv and in Jerusalem. You’ll hear those episodes in the months to come. This week, we bring you our second live show in partnership with one of Israel’s most popular podcasts: Israel Story.  Welcome to the second live podcast recording here at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv. So on Monday, you heard two very different perspectives from two women who fled war torn Ukraine and landed here in Israel, their new home. Today, you will hear the story of Israeli Moshe Kol, born Moshe Kolodny, in 1911, in what is now Belarus. He was one of the 37 founders of the State of Israel, who signed Israel's Declaration of Independence. We're bringing you this live show together with another podcast that you might enjoy, Israel Story. Think This American Life except it's This Israeli Life. Broadcasting in English since 2014, each episode introduces us to the wide array of characters who make up this diverse and dynamic democratic nation.  In honor of Israel's 75th year of independence, the team at Israel Story set out to find the closest living relative of all 37, who signed Megilat Ha'atzmaut. In March, they began rolling out what I would call audio portraits of those 37 people. Portraits about who they met, what they could tell us about the 37 people who signed that founding document. They call the series, 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?' And since March, we have met eight of Israel's founding mothers and fathers. Over the next several months we will meet the other 29 including Moshe Kol, through the lens of his daughter. Today, you get a special preview through the lens of his grandson. With me to talk about 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?' is the host of Israel Story, Mishy Harman, and the grandson of Moshe Kol, Eran Peleg.  Mishy, Eran, welcome to People of the Pod, live in Tel Aviv.  So Mishy, I will start with you. The title is not 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered,' it's 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?' What's with the question mark? Mishy Harman:   Well, first of all, that's a good question. I mean, it's always difficult to adjust with your intonation to indicate a question mark. But I think that this is a real question. When we began this series, it was actually before the last elections which took place in November, and before this unprecedented wave of democratic, cry for democratic values in this country in light of the government's judicial reform. And we set out to ask, there is this founding document, its status, its legal status is unclear. It's the best way I think, to think of it is, it's some sort of moral compass for our country. And, you know, interestingly, the only action item that actually exists within the Declaration of Independence is to formalize the Constitution, which of course, never happened. So we want to say, to ask the question of what this document actually is in Israeli society, whether we live up to the promise of the words and the ideas that were described within it, whether we haven't. In which ways we have or we haven't, and we wanted to do this through the prism. I'm sure every citizen of Israel has something to say about this and we wanted to do it through the prism of the descendants of the people who signed this document who you know with, with strike of their pen birthed, this country. Actually Moshe Kol call was in Jerusalem at the, on the day of the declaration. There were 11 out of members from Moetzet Ha’am who were who were stuck in Jerusalem, that was besieged and didn't participate in the, in the ceremony, which was here in Tel Aviv. So I think your grandfather signed something like a month later, during the first ceasefire, the different members of Moetzet Ha’am were brought to Tel Aviv by plane actually, to sign. But we wanted to ask, well, here we have this group of people. And it's an interesting group, because the first thing to say about it is that there are no non Jews who signed Megillat Ha’atzmaut, and that's, I think, a very important thing to keep in mind. But when you look at the group of these 37 signatories, it's a little bit like a pointillist painting. So when you look from afar, it looks like a pretty monolithic group of Polish and Ukrainian and Russian Labor Party operatives. But when you come closer, you actually see that there was a dazzling diversity among the signatories. There were ultra-orthodox Jews, and there were atheists, and there were revisionists. And there were communists. And there were people who were born in the middle of the 19th century, and there were people like Moshe Kol, who was the second youngest signatory who was born in 1911, I think. And they represented very different ideologies. And we want to see if a generation and a half or two afterwards whether that diversity had expanded, or shrunken. And to what extent these people who are closest to the ones who imagines the state, how they think about the place we live in today. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So 25 signed in Independence Hall, just a little ways from here, actually, here in Tel Aviv, 11, we're in Jerusalem under siege, including your grandfather, two women. Hm. But there was a lot of diversity in the group. That said, I know that they–oh, one in America, I forgot about one in America. They organized it alphabetically. When they signed it, though, even though they signed it at different times? Mishy Harman:   With the exception of David Ben-Gurion, who signed first. Everyone else signed alphabetically, and they left little spaces for them. Some of them signed terribly. Like, even though it was the founding document of the state, they couldn't sign on the right line. And actually right underneath Ben-Gurion is the signature of Daniel Auster who was the mayor of Jerusalem. His surname is Auster, which begins with an aleph. So he was the first to sign. And he recalled how Ben-Gurion berated him because his signature was just like some sort of scribble and Ben-Gurion said, don’t you understand the importance, the historical importance of the document you're signing. I think your grandfather's signature actually is sort of legible, right?  Eran Peleg:   Yeah, you can read it. Mishy Harman:   I don’t know if you sort of, when you were a boy, when you went up to the Declaration of Independence and sort of pointed to your grandfather's signature with pride or something.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   One of the women you interviewed said that her father or grandfather, I don't recall, but she remembers practicing and practicing the signature beforehand. It was an exciting, it was such an exciting moment. So going back to the organization, how did you organize the episodes? And how did you decide the sequence of how you would release the episodes? Mishy Harman:   So we decided not to follow the order in which they appear on the scroll. We did start with David Ben-Gurion. An episode in which his grandson who was really his, the closest person, I would say to him in the family, including his own children, talked about Ben-Gurion. And interestingly, Yariv Ben-Eliezer, Ben-Gurion's grandson, has quite radical views about Israel today. And he thinks of Israel as an apartheid state and says that his grandfather would be very, very upset, and that the whole dream sort of went down the drain.  So it was important to us in the next episode to present a pretty different view. So the next episode was the son of Zerach Warhaftig, who was one of the leaders of the Religious Zionist movement. And is a sort of mainstream right winger today. We do try to take into account, you know, gender. So even though there were only two female signatories, we obviously tried to interview as many women as we could who are descendants. Some sort of political variation, we also do try to have episodes have a theme, so whether it's economy or socialism, or tourism or you know, Yemenite Jewelry, or women's rights. So it's not just about the, about the signatory himself or herself, but also sort of about the things that were most important to that person. Manya Brachear Pashman:   I tried to as we were, as we were planning this and planning this episode, I tried my hand at tracking someone down from Israeli history and tracking down descendants. And I told your producer that it just made me even more impressed by the work that went into this project, because it was damn near impossible to find who I was looking for. Tell us how you tracked everyone down? Or are there some really good stories about how you connected the dots and landed the right, right person. Mishy Harman:   So all of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence are dead. The last one, who was the only one who was younger than your grandfather, Meir Vilner, died about 20 years ago. 14 of the 37 have children who are still alive. In fact, your grandfather, you were just telling me that all of his three daughters are still alive. So that was quite straightforward to find the children. When you start getting into grandchildren and great grandchildren, it becomes quite messy, there are 1000s of descendants. There were only three ultra orthodox Haredi signatories, but they have many, many descendants. And there becomes an interesting question of who you choose, right? Because depending on who you choose, you can tell a very, very different story. And we always tried to prefer people who knew their ancestor, and had firsthand experiences with them. But also to try and maybe we'll get into this a little bit later, but to try to demonstrate a variety of opinions today, too. So it is an interesting fact that the vast, and maybe maybe you'll talk about this, but it is an interesting fact that the vast majority of the descendants of the signatories of the declaration are in what you might call today, the sort of center and center left camp in in Israel, who are concerned about assaults on Israeli democracy. And in fact, the Declaration of Independence has, in recent months, become a rallying cry for the demonstrations. Suddenly the Declaration of Independence, you can't you can't escape it. It's everywhere. The municipality of Tel Aviv, hunger, massive replica, on the building. In demonstrations. There's sort of resigning of the Declaration of Independence, it's really, it's really become an icon, basically. And it was important for us to also show that there are descendants who think otherwise. And so for example, in episodes that haven't yet come out, their descendants who wonder why we even talk about Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, they say democracy is an important concept. It's some sort of Hellenistic fossil. It's not a Jewish value. We don't think that that should even be something that we aspire to. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Interesting. Interesting. Eran, how did you get the call that Israel Story was putting this together? Do you recall that day? Eran Peleg:   The truth is, I don't remember exactly. Because I've had numerous conversations with them. I think it was probably towards the end of last year at some point. And again, as Mishy said, it was before kind of all these events happened here in Israel. Very happy because I thought, you know, it's, as you say, now it's like the declaration is everywhere. Yeah, people talk about it all of a sudden people, you know, it's, we see it everywhere. But for many years, I mean, hasn't been much discussed, actually. So I was kind of saying, Ah, yeah, it was the 75th anniversary, the State of Israel is coming up. Some chance that we'll get something about it, but that wasn't expecting much. And I was quite happy, to have the opportunity to talk about the declaration, my grandfather, obviously. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Tell us a little bit about your own upbringing and what Moshe Kol was like as a grandfather. Eran Peleg:   Well, I was just telling Mishy, I mean, quite a small family. My grandfather Moshe or as we called him, Saba Misha, grandfather Misha. You know, he had three daughters. Elisa, Sari, who's my mother and Yehudit, who is the younger one. And altogether, you know, a bunch of grandchildren, seven grandchildren. But that's, that's pretty much it. And so we're a very close family. Every Friday night, for example, we would all gather at my grandparents house and have Shabbat dinner there that was like, you know, you had to be there was no discussion about it or negotiation. So even like, my friends always know that if we want to go out on Friday nights, always after dinner at Saba Misha and my grandmother Keta’s house. So we spent a lot of time together. At the point when I was growing up already, my grandfather was obviously getting less involved with state affairs.  When I was seven years old, he kind of retired essentially, in 1977. So I had the opportunity to spend time with him actually, both here and also they took me abroad on a couple of trips with them. So it was very interesting. He was a very kind man, very interesting man.  I thought he was very smart. The Zionist project was kind of his life mission, if you like. So he was always talking in some way about it. He was always involved even after he retired he was involved in various different projects. Some of them had to do with coexistence within Israel, between Arabs and Jews, Druze, he was very involved with the Druze community, actually, he made good friends there. So even after his retirement, he continued to be active. And so I had the great privilege of kind of knowing him until I was 19 years old when he passed away. And really learned a lot from him. Manya Brachear Pashman:   When did you learn that he had signed the Declaration of Independence? Eran Peleg:   I don't remember exactly, frankly. And this is one of the interesting things is that I don't remember much discussion at home about the Declaration of Independence. And I think my mother and aunt as well, I don't think, I think they'll probably agree with that even at an earlier stage. And it's quite interesting that he never made a big deal about it, definitely. And I think that in a way, he, although obviously, in hindsight, it was, and maybe at the time, it was a big event, but to him it was I think, and look at here, I'm kind of interpreting, this is my perspective on it. I think to him, it was one necessary and important, obviously, but you know, one necessary step in the big project, and the big project was, you know, establishing and building the Jewish state, the state of Israel. But I don't think if you asked him probably what was the highlight of kind of what was the most important thing you did in your life? I'm not sure if he would have said signing the Declaration of Independence. For example, I think— Mishy Harman:   He would have said bringing over 100,000 kids from the Diaspora. Eran Peleg:   Exactly yeah, so he was head of youth Aliyah for 18 years after the Holocaust and after the establishment of the State of Israel. To him, I think that was his kind of big, the big thing he you know, he accomplished more than anything else, and he was even later a minister, a cabinet minister, and so he did you know, many other things, but I think that was probably to him, the highlight of his career, Zionist, you know, and the declaration was kind of, you know, one step, kind of  a necessary step, but just, you know, one step along the way. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So why was he invited to sign that day? Eran Peleg:   So, and maybe Mishy, who's more of a historian can, perhaps, can you shed more light on this? But what I know is that, you know, the signatories were invited, it was based on kind of a, it was a party basis, or there were different movements, as Mishy mentioned, within, you know, Zionism or wasn't specific Zionism, because it really, it was supposed to represent the people who were living here actually ex the non Jews, right?  Mishy Harman:   Though interestingly, there probably would have been non Jews who would have agreed to have been part of this effort, I mean, your grandfather was involved in, in the cause of Christian Arabs from the North, who were, who were removed from their villages, Iqrit and Biram and stuff like that. Those kinds of people were actually allies of the Zionist movement in those days. And it's, it's possible, although Druze leaders- Eran Peleg:   It’s possible, although, I mean, it's difficult, I think, for us sitting here now to know, because we have to remember this was like, it was a very tense time and, you know, we just had the War of Independence, kind of breaking out and all that. So it's difficult to say, I think. So he was representative of one of the movements, one of the factions within the Zionist movement, he was part of the, what they called, at the time, the General Zionists, Tzionim Haklaliym. And I think he was one of six representatives, I think of the General Zionists. And already at the time, he was a prominent leader within, you know, the kind of centrist Zionism. He was very early on in his life, he was already head of the, what was called the Noar Hatzioni, the movement, the global leader of the Noar Hatzioni. From there, so he kind of knew, he attended several of the Zionist congressional,l the conferences along the years, he was already a member of the executive committee of the Jewish Agency at that point. So he already had a certain position or statue within the kind of Zionist Movement. And as one of the leaders of the General Zionist, he was invited to participate in Moetzet Ha’am, which were the signatories of the declaration. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You said, I'm sorry, the first thing you said, he was the global leader of, and I didn't quite hear what you said. Eran Peleg:   The Noar Hatzioni movement. Manya Brachear Pashman:  What is that?  Eran Peleg:   It was a youth movement. One of the, at time it still exists, actually. Interestingly, less so in Israel, actually. But in some countries in South America, I know it still exists. Today it's quite small, then it was a decent youth movement. That's actually how we met my grandmother. Because my grandmother was involved in the Noar Hatzioni in Belgium in Brussels. She was one of the heads of the Noar Hatzioni there, and and he has kind of part of his job as the Global Head, whatever of the movement, he was traveling and went to see all these different, all these different places. And that's how he ended up in Brussels where he met my grandmother. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You mentioned earlier that some of the descendants had evolved, drifted away from their ancestors, ideologies, political perspectives or philosophies. I'm curious, what your team found was it was did that account for most of the interviews that you did? Or a minority? I mean, did you find that in most of the interviews, the philosophies were kind of embedded in the family DNA? Mishy Harman:   It’s interesting. Most people are quite similar to their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, mothers, and so on, so forth. But, and, of course, I mean, the important thing to remember is that we're talking in a completely different worlds now, right? If you think about Israeli society today, and you think about our chances of ever agreeing on a single document or a single vision of this state, that's you have to be crazy, basically, to think that that's possible.  I mean, we live in such a fragmented and fractured society today, that getting a group that is in some way representative of the country to agree on what this country actually is, what this project that we call Israel, really is, today seems almost unimaginable. And I think, honestly, that it was pretty unimaginable at the time too. I think that they had other things going for them that in the background that allowed them to reach this moment of agreement. Which, you know, there were, as Eran just said, that we were in the middle of a war and it was, seemed like an existential war, right. We were gonna live or die. This all came together very, very quickly. You know, people understood that this was this opportunity, the British Mandate was about to end, there was going to be a power vacuum, the Zionist movement had an opportunity to declare statehood, which was something that, you know, in the Jewish psyche, had been a dream for 2000 years, 1900 years.  And they weren't going to, there was some sense of sort of, I would say, communal responsibility, which, you know, there's this word in Hebrew that is difficult to translate, really, which is Mamlachtiut, it's really some sort of sense of, of being part of a larger state collective, that that wasn't going to allow them even if they disagreed with a specific phrasing or a specific idea to be the one saying, No, I'm going to I'm going to be the sole naysayer in this otherwise historic opportunity. And that's what got a lot of people on board, right. I mean, otherwise, how, and I know, they're all these stories about sort of vague phrasings whether they refer to God or don't refer to God or whether they can be interpreted in other ways, and so on and so forth. Today, we're a much more blunt society today. People would want things to be said very, very clearly. And we just unfortunately, and then I'd be interested to hear what you think. But I don't think that as a collective we share any clear understanding of what we can agree on. At least it doesn't seem that way today. Eran Peleg:   It's definitely, I agree. But I still remain optimistic, maybe it's my nature. But I do think that, you know, we've seen, you know, the huge amount we've achieved here in such a short period of time. And I do think that, you know, in some ways the values and political views are more clear now than they were back then. As you say, because of everything that was going on at the time, and they, and they were really occupied with kind of let's build this state more than anything else. You know, they put a lot of other things aside, frankly, it's not that they didn't have views about the economy about, you know, they had views about other other things about education, economy, it's just that they said, let's put this aside for now. And let's focus on the main project or the main mission.  And they hope to get to the other stuff. Well, they actually promised to put together a constitution, which I guess, but the truth is, it was, frankly, with historical perspective, I think it was very difficult because they were actually set a date. I think. They said that until the, you know, the declaration was signed in May. And they said by October 1st, something like that, I think it's a very short period of time after they already want to have a constitution. And I think that probably wasn't realistic.  Also because there was a war going on. And they were occupied with, you know, just existence, or survival. But also, because, you know, views were not, you know, really clear on many different issues, and they didn't have the opportunity to discuss them really yet. United States, for example, putting together a constitution, the Constitution came really only I think, like more than 150 years after people landed, with the Mayflower. So there was a long time where they were already living together. And also then, there was a very serious job around putting together the American Constitution here, they, they were trying to put it together a middle of a war and just wasn't realistic.  Mishy Harman:   I think that this is particularly interesting for American listeners, because 75 years is a long time, but it's also almost no time at all. And what we feel lucky about with this project is that we're able to still touch these people, who, before they sort of drift into the realm of becoming historical figures in in books and research papers and stuff like that, and we can, we can talk to two sons and daughters, who remember these people as real as real people. And I think, you know, that's unimaginable, obviously, in the American context. And we tend to, we tend to attribute so much importance to phrasings and to wordings, of these kinds of declarations of, and we forget that at the end of the day, these are people who are writing writing these words within within specific historical context and bringing themselves and you know, Moshe Kol, for example, is signing, signing his name on on this scroll of independence. You know, a few years, four years, I don't know, after, after his parents and sister are murdered in the Holocaust, and that was the story of many of the signatories. And as it was saying, it was in the middle of the war and 1% of the population was killed in this war. I mean, they're writing these words, both without sort of knowing what we know today that 75 years hence, Israel is going to be around and Israel is going to be this thriving country with a cantankerous democracy. It was, I think, in many ways, sort of a prayer or a wish, of what, of what this place could be. Many of them came from, you know, socialist backgrounds or from small villages and stuff like that, and suddenly found themselves here in this radically different environment than anything that they had known previously. And they were trying to imagine, well, what can we imagine a just society being? And another interesting thing is that, sort of patriotic symbols like the flag and like the Declaration of Independence, which for years had been essentially owned by the right in this country have in the last year. Eran Peleg:   Less so the Declaration. Mishy Harman:  The declaration was a little more in the right. But have been completely appropriated by the protest movement, right? I mean, if you go here to Kaplan on Saturday night, which I strongly recommend everyone to do, whether you agree with the protests, or not just because it's a really, it's an incredible, incredible sight for anyone who cares about democracy, to see what these protests are like. You'll see basically a sea of flags, of Israeli flag. So that's, for me, that's a fascinating development.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   But doesn’t it belong to both? I mean– Eran Peleg:   I mean, it definitely does. But, you know, the flag was, you know, is always perceived as a bit kind of nationalistic kind of, has this kind of flavor to it. But yeah, but you're right, it obviously belongs to both. Manya Brachear Pashman:   They're just embracing it in different ways.  Mishy Harman:   One question that I would have to you about who things belong to is whether, sorry, I don't know if you– is whether being the grandson of one of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence, makes you feel different about your own ownership of this place? Whether it sort of casts a shadow of responsibility.  Eran Peleg:   I don't think I'm in a position of privilege or entitlement different from anyone else. I happen to be his grand, yeah, grand grandson. But, but what I think I do have, which maybe some other people don't, I do have, I think, a good sense of history, at least, kind of understanding where we've come from, you know, etc. And I think that's something that sometimes I see missing with other people, maybe that gives me a slightly different perspective on things. So, for example, I see, you know, because we're the generation that was already born into the state of Israel. For us, it was like a given that, right? Self-evident, it’s given. And I see especially with people who, like us, some people. It does make me angry when some people might say, I don't like what's going on, I'm just gonna go elsewhere. And to me, like, that makes me angry. But I don't think it makes me angry. Because I'm the son of Moshe Kol, I think it makes me angry, because at least I have an understanding of, you know, what's been put into this project already.  And the efforts that have been made, and obviously, you know, people have given their lives as well, I mean, soldiers, for us to be where we are today as well. So, just kind of thinking that, Oh, you know, Israel will always be there for us, even if we go elsewhere, then we decide to come back, right. If we want, we can always come back. But no, that's not the case. Israel wasn't always here.  I mean, you have to understand that we have a very, very special situation or position where we have the State of Israel, it's such a valuable thing. We can't just give it up, you know, just like that, okay. And you can't just take it for granted that we'll be here or that it's here, that we'll be here when you decide one day to come back from wherever you're going.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   Maybe you don't feel that Israel belongs to you. But do you belong to Israel?  Eran Peleg:   Definitely. Yeah. It's definitely the case.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   Do you ever, and I actually, I address this question to both of you. Wouldn't it be great if we could make plans. But if you had complete control over the universe, and your future, do you foresee ever leaving Israel? Mishy Harman:   Eran? Eran Peleg:   Again, it's very difficult to know what the future holds. But I see Israel as my home, I've actually had the opportunity to go abroad and come back. And part of the decision to come back was because this is my home. And my home also consists of the fact that my family's here, obviously. So it's a family, family reasons as well. But also, definitely, also Zionism played a role in my decision. I've lived 12 years outside of Israel, but my assumption was always that I’m there for a limited period of time, and I'm going to come back at some point. And that's actually what happened. And so, to me, Israel is where it's place for me.  Mishy Harman:   So I don't totally know what the word Zionism really means. Today, and something I think about a lot. My grandparents, who were of the same generation of Eran's grandparents, and also very active in the Zionist movement and in building the state. So not quite the blue-bloodedness of signing the Declaration, but they met in the early 30s. They were both students, they were both British, and they met because my grandfather, who was later on Israel's ambassador to the US for many, many years and the president of the Hebrew University, he was the he was the head of the student of design a student union at Oxford, and they met at a debate in which he debated my grandmother who was the head of the anti Zionist Student Union at the London School of Economics and she was an anti Zionist not because she had any particular beef with the Zionist movement but because she was an internationalist and she didn't believe as many others in the in the years between the wars, but leave she did believed in the concept of nation states and, of course, then spent the remainder of her life in the service of this particular nation state. But she was a tremendous presence in my life, she lived to be almost 100 and lived across the street from us.  So I'll just share with you very quickly, one of the sort of formative memories of my life is that in 2006, she was already a very elderly woman in her mid 90s. She, we were and not totally with it all the time. At that point, we were watching television together and it was the Second Lebanon War. And she sort of perked up out of nowhere. And she said, Look what a strange thing we're talking about, there are hills to the north of here, that have vegetation, and have wildlife, and have flowers. And we've drawn a line in the middle of those hills. And we call one side of that line, Israel and the other side of that line Lebanon. And there are people living on both sides of that line. And what the TV is saying is that when Moti Cohen’s life is destructed, or he's injured, because a Katyusha missile fell on his building, or something, we need to be deeply, deeply sad. And Ahmad Salman’'s life is destructed because the Israeli Air Force bombed his village or something, no one's saying that we need to be happy, but we can basically be kind of indifferent.  And she said, I don't know Moti Cohen. And I don't know Ahmad Salaman, but I'm equally saddened by the hurt that both of them are feeling. And that was that statement that stayed with me and stays with me, till today.  So my connection to this place, I would say, is less from an idealistic point of Zionism, in sort of the classic sense of Jewish self determination. And more from the fact that I was born here, and I grew up here. And the park in which I played soccer, growing up still exists, and the streets, in which I, you know, walked hand in hand with my first girlfriend still exist, and my family are here, and my friends are here. And I like the food that I am accustomed to eating my entire life. And in some fundamental way, this is my home. So, you know, Madison, Wisconsin, or London are not my home in the same way. So that's what makes me want to be here and in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence, try to make our country live up to the lofty and beautiful ideals that that set out to achieve. Manya Brachear Pashman:   That’s beautiful, both of you. Both beautiful answers. Before we go, I do want to talk about, you've mentioned that a couple times, maybe the absence of God and democracy, those words from the declaration, and I'm just curious if you could both share your thoughts on: does that matter? And is it mattering today? If those words were embedded in the document, would anything be different today, possibly? Mishy Harman:   I think the absence of the word God was very intentional. And there's a lot of historical documentation about that. And I think the absence of the word democracy was less intentional in that. I mean, I don't want to bore you with a lot of technicalities. But democracy did appear in previous drafts of of the Declaration of Independence, and was ultimately taken out but not because I think that anyone had any sense that they wanted to be less…yeah, the the intent of Israel being a democracy, I think it's very clearly stated that Israel will come into existence based on the guidelines of the United Nations and the Partition Plan that called for the creation two democratic entities here.  I think the Declaration of Independence talks about equality and about freedom of religion and, and in all the main tenets of democracy. So, I think that the Declaration of Independence does, as a document does appeal to a wide variety of people even today. I think that you know, it would be more difficult Today to write a founding document, that in the current makeup of Israeli society that doesn't refer to God and doesn't refer more clearly to the divine. Eran Peleg:   But there is some implicit- God is implicity present. I think there's a- Mishy Harman:   Tzur yisrael (rock of Israel). Eran Peleg:   Exactly, right.  Mishy Harman:   Which was sort of a very famous kind of pie style compromise, of saying things and not saying them at the same time. Mishy Harman:   And maybe as the last thing to say, which opens up a whole other conversation with you, if you maybe want to invite us again, to the podcast, we can discuss, is that, you know, the Declaration of Independence set in place, a notion which I think to most signatories did not seem like a contradictory notion of a Jewish and democratic state. And I think we're grappling till this day with whether those terms are contradictory whether a democracy can be a Jewish state, whether a Jewish state can be a democracy, I think all of them signed the Declaration thinking that this was a possible outcome. And I don't think that they thought that these terms would come to clash in the ways that they have.  And I think till today, we're dealing with that legacy of this sort of impossibly simple and yet impossibly difficult coupling of terms, which we're now living in a moment in which we're trying to understand whether the signatories were right, whether this is a possibility. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Mishy, I hope you don't mind me asking you a personal question to close us out. And that is, I know you lost your father shortly before the debut of this series. It is dedicated in his memory. And you just shared a story about his mother, I believe that was your paternal grandmother. I'm curious as your team was having all of these conversations, you and your team were having these conversations with children and grandchildren, about the people they love their legacies, did that shape any of the conversations you had with your father in his final days, because you were working on it kind of simultaneously. Mishy Harman:   Sure. My father would have loved this series very much because it represented his Israel. It's also Eran’s Israel, which is an optimistic Israel, which sees the good in people and the potential and the dream of this project that we began here. I think he would have been very interested, he knew many of these characters who we’re talking about. I think he would have also been saddened to hear that a lot of them are dismayed by where things have gone. And I think he was as well. He was the greatest Zionist that I could imagine. And that he really believed. Zionism is a sort of catchphrase in which you can insert almost anything that you want into it. But I think his most fundamental belief, which he attributed to the heart of Zionism was a belief and the quality and a belief that people are people and the belief in education, and the belief in the spirit of the Jewish people. And in this really miraculous entity that we've created that allows us to ask these fundamental, difficult questions about our past. And for me, it's very, very meaningful to be able to dedicate this series to his memory. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Thank you so much to both of you for joining us. Thank you for the series. I encourage everyone here to listen to episodes of- Mishy Harman:   And the next episode that's coming out on Monday is about Moshe Kol.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   Oh, perfect timing. Wonderful. And thank you both for joining us.  Mishy Harman:   Thank you. Eran Peleg: Thank you very much. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Thank you, audience. Manya Brachear Pashman: To listen to Israel Story’s special series on the Declaration of Independence or any other regular episode, you can subscribe to Israel Story wherever you get your podcasts. Just don’t forget to also subscribe to People of the Pod and our award-winning series, The Forgotten Exodus. To learn more about Moshe Kol, here’s a sneak peek of Israel Story’s interview with  his daughter, Yehudit Kol Inbar, the former director of the Museums Division of Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. Excerpt from Israel Story - Episode 89 - Moshe Kol:  Yehudit Kol Inbar: He was eating grapefruit and he was crying, because for him it represented, ‘wow, we are in Israel and we have a grapefruit that we ourself grew it.’ He was very proud and happy with the feeling that they're building a place for the Jewish people. Mishy Harman: That’s Yehudit Kol Inbar, the daughter of Moshe Kolodny, who - for nineteen years - headed the Jewish Agency’s Youth Immigration Division, and was responsible for bringing more than 100,000 unaccompanied minors to Israel from eighty-five different countries. Despite being among the founders of at least seven kibbutzim and five youth villages, and later on holding senior cabinet posts, he considered that immigration effort to be his greatest public achievement. It was, he once said, a project that had no equivalent in the annals of human history. Manya Brachear Pashman: To listen to the rest of the episode, head to the link in our show notes. Our thanks once again to host Mishy Harman and the staff at Israel Story for sharing these incredible stories with us at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv.   

Since his election by the Knesset in 2021, Israeli President Isaac Herzog has used his position as a platform to try to mend the social fabric of the Jewish state. At AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, Herzog sat down with AJC CEO Ted Deutch to discuss key issues, including judicial reform, Israel-Diaspora relations, and the importance of the Abraham Accords. Herzog ends his discussion with an important message for today’s youth.  *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. ____ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Isaac Herzog ____ Show Notes: Watch: Israeli President Isaac Herzog and AJC CEO Ted Deutch's Conversation at AJC Global Forum 2023 To watch more videos from AJC Global Forum 2023, go to http://www.ajc.org/GlobalForumNews2023 Read:  3 Key Takeaways From Israeli President Isaac Herzog’s Conversation with AJC CEO Ted Deutch What to Know About Israel’s Judicial Reforms Listen: Two Ukrainian Refugees Reflect on Escaping War, and Life in Israel– Live from AJC Global Forum 2023 Join us next year:  Attend Global Forum 2024 in Washington D.C. Register today to secure $350 off your ticket Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of interview with Isaac Herzog: Manya Brachear Pashman: Last week at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, AJC CEO Ted Deutch sat down with Israeli President Isaac Herzog for a conversation about a range of issues, including the controversial judicial reforms, the connection between Israel and the diaspora, and the vital relationship between the US and Israel. For listeners who didn't have a chance to see it live, we are replaying that conversation this week. Ted Deutch: As an organization that is committed to advocating for the Jewish people in its entirety, all around the world, your advocacy, your commitment to diaspora Jewry to recognizing the importance of every Jew around the world, is an inspiration to us. And for us to have this opportunity. It, I'd like to start by asking the question in all of your efforts to engage the broadest cross-section of the Jewish world, from left to right, from secular to Orthodox, you've gone out of your way to be the President of Israel, who is really representing the people of Israel. Where does that come from? Is it just part of the role you see yourself playing? It's personal to you clearly, if you could just share with us.  Isaac Herzog: It is a passion. And, and I think it's also part and parcel of the role of the President, meaning the president is the head of state of the only Jewish nation, the nation-state of the Jewish people in the world. And as such, it's only natural that he will have such a role, but it also comes out of a deep passion of mine. As you know, my late father Chaim Herzog was also Israel's president was the sixth president. And I come from a family that serves the Jewish people for generations. Some of you have known my uncle Abba Eban, who was Israel's legendary foreign minister. Some of you have known My other uncle Jacob Herzog, who was a huge diplomat, some of you have known my grandfather, Rabbi Isaac Halevi Herzog, who was Israel's chief rabbi and a huge Jewish leader, you know, my brother, Mike, who's the ambassador in Washington, I can go on and on if you want to.  But truly, we believe in the Jewish people. We believe that the story of the Jewish people, I believe in the story of the Jewish people, my previous role, was chairman of the world's biggest Jewish organization, The Jewish Agency. And I'm adamantly passionate me and my family, but the story of the Jewish people and we are a small nation, of about 15 million plus Jews around the globe, in a sea of 8 billion human beings, we have a role to play, we have a role, we have a story, we have a role. And therefore we should protect and preserve the unity of our people amidst all of its differences. And that's why I've launched my initiative of Voice of the People - Kol Ha’am. Well, now right now, as of this week, we are holding labs all over the Jewish world to have discussions about how do we move on? How do we care for each other? And how do we identify the future leadership of the Jewish people?  Ted Deutch: Thank you, thank you for launching that effort. I just want to pause to marvel at the way that your family's history is just inextricably woven. Isaac Herzog: I haven’t even told you half of it, but doesn't matter. I had one of my father's uncles was the head of the AFL CIO. He was Sidney Hillman, really and FDR would say clear it with said so now you have to understand what Shabbat dinners means in our family. There's no way you can escape this stuff. Ted Deutch: As you're sitting, you're sitting here in a room full of people who Shabbos dinners. Well, while we don't have the same personal connections throughout, throughout the history of Israel, that you have our Shabbos dinners I am comfortable saying all of us are full of conversations about Israel, about the importance of Israel, about the role that Diaspora Jewry can play how we can ensure and strengthened ties between the Jewish people in America and around the world and Israel and I know that you're just launching this really important effort. And I'm not asking you to guess what the outcome will be. But I will ask right now even as you're starting this process, as we go back when we go back to America and we go back to our 25 regional offices and our offices around the world. What can we be doing to help strengthen the relationship between diaspora Jewry and the State of Israel?  Isaac Herzog: So you have a huge role to play. And I would say first that I believe that part of the problem is the lack of understanding of what Israel is all about. There's, there's a judgmental attitude in certain spheres on my American public life, in certain quarters that judges us according to certain skeleton, scale, sorry, that is not always realistic in terms of where we live in what we do. We are a small and nation which is truly challenged by a huge enemy, which works day in day out to undermine us to kill our citizens, employ, tell against us around us from all sides, and rush to the bomb and spread anti semitism and hatred. And on the other hand, we are a nation that is extremely successful, successful, reaching incredible heights in so many incredible fields that, you know, we will discuss the internal issue and the judicial reform in a minute, I'm sure. But all I'm saying is that in some places, you know, we are judged wrongly by what we do and how strategic we are. And I think you have an immense role to play in telling the story of Israeli democracy, diversity, achievements, we can, of course, deal with the faults and mistakes like any nation, I've got news for you, all nations are challenged and simmering, and, and debating, especially in the modern era. And, and of course, they need to protect and preserve our only Jewish state in the world.  Ted Deutch: So we're here on a we're, we're here on a Sunday afternoon. Last night, again, there was there were massive protests around the country, democracy is really democracy in action. How, how should we be thinking about all of that?  Isaac Herzog: First of all, let's understand where we're at, because the talks under my auspices, and I gave huge attention to this process, and I find it serious and important. And I also take this tells the leaders that they bear huge responsibility as to the fate and outcome of these talks. And especially as to the effort that is needed in order to reach a wide agreement on the call issues which are so important. These are critical days. And I sincerely hope that the leaders and the elected officials will take the right decisions, because not only the people of Israel want a wide agreement, consensus on the core issues, without of course, hurting the basic rules of democracy and the independence of the judiciary. But more importantly, I also feel that in this room, the Jewish world demands us not to be torn apart, and want us to move forward with a dialogue. Ted Deutch: AJC from the moment you launch your effort to bring the parties together has been as supportive as we possibly can be. We agree that this is a moment that the diaspora as a whole has to recognize why we cannot afford to let it tear us apart.  Isaac Herzog: Absolutely. Look, the debate itself, on the core issue of the boundaries between the three arms of government is a legitimate debate that stems from a process of debating that has ensued 30 years ago, these are critical questions that come out when you don't have a constitution. How far can one arm of government supersede the other? That's all a very legitimate debate, the way it's done? What is unleashed, actually, perhaps it's good that it has come up now, as a public issue as a real in-depth discussion of where we are and where we are going to as a nation. I find it actually a potentially healthy process where we air out our differences and talk, talk to each other. And by the way at our home, the president's residence, both Michal and me and the entire team. We are hosting 1000s of Israelis every month while discussing these issues from all sides of Israeli multicultural society. And we have to face that reality and try our best to come to amicable solutions, which preserve our democracy, which protect our democracy, which preserve and protect the independence of our judiciary, which is a very noble arm of government and nonetheless find the right answers as to the boundaries between these arms of government,  Ted Deutch: And we wish you nothing but success in reaching that compromise. Finally, Mr. President, there are over 400 young participants here high school students, college students, young adults, as you as you prepare to exit our stage-- Isaac Herzog: Do you want to say a word about the Abraham accords? Before you asked me about that? Oh, I would. Let's shift gears. I'm trying to go full of time now. I'm sorry. We'll take another few minutes. Great. So I just want to put that down, let me know when it's okay. Well, oh, then I've got a lot to ask. No, no, not a lot.  Ted Deutch: But let me just ask this instead. Now, we just came from the UAE. And we heard over and over the story of your visit to the United Arab Emirates to advance Israel's place in the world. And the attacks that were launched against the UAE and the expectation as a visiting as a visiting president, that those attacks would prompt you to leave the UAE instead, you had nothing you said no to that you, you extended your stay. Talk to us about how you view your role in advancing Israel's place.  Isaac Herzog: I believe that the Abraham Accords which have followed the trailblazing peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt, are a sea change, sea change in history, sea change in world affairs in the region, because there is an opening of a real dialogue between Jew and Muslim in the region. We see it all over. The interactions are huge. And I find the role of the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain, which we visited as well. immensely important. And I truly believe that we should make an effort that the next chapter will be with Saudi Arabia, I also want to commend the Kingdom of Morocco, which has gone has gone and is a leap ahead dramatically in the our relations. And I believe in that relations tremendously. I also want to commend the Sudan and I hope that they will settle their affairs.  But I want to say something about the UAE because the UAE is moving forward continuously in the relationship. And that is extremely important. I want to congratulate my good friend Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed, the President of the United Arab Emirates, for assuming the leadership of the International Climate Conference known as cop 28, which will take place a few months down the road. I was extremely honored to receive a personal invitation by Sheikh Mohammed and his government and I will attend that conference together with Prime Minister Netanyahu. And I also want to add that most importantly, is that this conference is still then headed by Chef Sultan Al Jabil, by Dr. Sultana Jabber, who is the representative of the UAE in dealing with climate issues. Because I believe that the cooperation between Israel and the Arab nations, Israel and the United Arab Emirates and its neighbors, as to the issue of climate and its impact in the world, has a huge potential, and it sends a spirit of inclusiveness, of friendship, of a future of hope to all peoples. And I welcomed this wholeheartedly and I believe it will make a huge change in the future.  Ted Deutch: Thank you. AJC, as you know, Mr. President, through our offices in Jerusalem, and in Abu Dhabi, remains committed to advancing this vision that you describe, as well as the opportunities to build closer relations between Jews and Muslims. And I am being told to wrap it up, but if you'd like to- Isaac Herzog: So let's take one, your final question: now, there are 400 youngsters here. Ted Deutch: Yes, yes. How did you know that was my next question. Yes.  Isaac Herzog: Because that's what you say. Ted Deutch: It's not often that they get to hear from the President of the State of Israel, what would you like them to hear before you leave our stage?  Isaac Herzog: So guys, you have your generation will face many challenges our parents generation faced our generation face and your generation will face you will have to take a lead role and and add another chapter in the history of the Jewish people. And I would say that one is the challenge of unity, meaning not uniformity, but unity, meaning the respect the love and affection between the nation state of the Jewish people, the State of Israel and its people and the Jewish Diaspora wherever it may be, all Jews must be able to practice their beliefs without fears, and we know harassment and be connected in their hearts to the State of Israel. And we should, we should be able to have the impact, the influence of the Jewish world, within our society within our democracy, understanding that Israel is a developing society, evolving society into a more multicultural, more diversified, fascinating, interesting and promising country. Thank you very much. Manya Brachear Pashman: People have a Pod hosted not just one but two live podcast recordings during AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv. If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for one of those live shows featuring my conversation with two Ukrainian refugees, who now call Israel home. Tune in next week for the second live show with Mishy Harman, the host of one of Israel's top podcasts, Israel Story, and Eran Peleg, whose grandfather signed Israel's Declaration of Independence.  

Margo Vdovichenko and Diana Buchman, both refugees of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, have found new lives in Israel. Margo, a student from Kyiv, now plans to attend medical school, while Diana, a single mother, bravely shielded her sons during their escape from Odessa. Recorded live at AJC Global Forum 2023, this moving conversation captures their journey and adjustment to life in Israel.  *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  ____ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Margo Vdovichenko and Diana Buchman ____ Show Notes: Watch:  This conversation from AJC Global Forum 2023  Listen: Hakeem Jeffries on Israel, Ghana, and Representing Brooklyn Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.  

This week, guest host Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC's Senior Director of Policy and Political Affairs, had the honor of connecting with Hakeem Jeffries, the leader of the House Democratic Caucus, after he led a congressional delegation to Israel and Ghana. As we approach the AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, we have the opportunity to listen to the Democratic leader's insights on the trip, the crucial nature of the U.S.-Israel relationship, and the historical and contemporary significance of Black-Jewish relations. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  ____ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Hakeem Jeffries ____ Show Notes: Learn more about AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv: AJC.org/GlobalForum Listen: 8 of the Best Jewish Podcasts Right Now From Roots to Harmony: Nefesh Mountain's Fusion of Jewish American Culture and Bluegrass Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of interview with Hakeem Jeffries:  Manya Brachear Pashman: This week, Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC’s Senior Director of Policy and Political Affairs, had the honor of connecting with leader of the House Democratic Caucus, Hakeem Jeffries, after he led a group of lawmakers on a recent trip to Israel. Julie, the mic is yours. Julie Fishman Rayman: Thanks, Manya. It’s my pleasure to introduce Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, who represents the very diverse 8th congressional district of New York, in Brooklyn, and also serves as the Democratic Leader. He was unanimously elected to that position in November 2022, and in that capacity he is the highest ranking democrat in the US house. He is also the former chair of the democratic caucus, the whip of the congressional black caucus, and previously co-chaired the  Democratic Policy and Communications committee. Also, a great friend of AJC and the Jewish community. Leader Jeffries, welcome to People of the Pod. Hakeem Jeffries:     Wonderful to be on. Thanks so much for having me. Julie Fishman Rayman: I want to get started by asking you about Jewish American Heritage Month, which as you know, we celebrate in May. Many listeners may not realize that members in congressional leadership cosponsor very few bills – meaning cosign or add their name to endorse them . In this Congress–correct me if I’m wrong–you’ve cosponsored fewer than a dozen bills and only one resolution–the resolution commemorating Jewish American Heritage Month. Can you speak about this effort and why it was important to you to help lead it? Hakeem Jeffries:   Well, thank you so much. And that is absolutely correct. The tradition has been that members and leadership sponsor very few bills and even fewer resolutions, just because the enormity of the request is large. And you want to make sure that you're being very discerning in terms of what you want to elevate as a priority. And for me, it was incredibly important to make sure that I co sponsored the resolution that commemorated Jewish American Heritage Month for a variety of reasons, including the fact that I'm privileged to represent a district that has one of the largest Jewish communities in the country. In fact, I represent the ninth most African American district in the country, and the 16th most Jewish. And so I represent. As a good friend of mine, Leon Goldenberg, once and I quote, you've got the best of both worlds. It's an honor, though, to represent the reformed Jewish community, the conservative Jewish community, the Orthodox Jewish community, the modern Orthodox Jewish community, the ultra orthodox Jewish community, and more Russian speaking Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union than any other member of Congress in the country. I mean, Hakeem Jeffries, who knew only in America, but that's Brooklyn, that's New York City and the Jewish community has meant so much to the country, which is why we honor and celebrate and elevate Jewish American Heritage month but particularly has meant so much to the district that I'm privileged to represent to Brooklyn and to the great city of New York. Julie Fishman Rayman: The United States has many heritage months that celebrate the various communities that form the mosaic of our country, including Black History Month, Women’s History Month, Hispanic Heritage Month, and more. By celebrating heritage months, we learn about one another, we honor the richness of our diverse nation, and we strengthen the fabric of American society. Some have described JAHM as going on the offensive against rising antisemitism, do you think that’s an appropriate description? Amidst rising antisemitism and hate of all forms, does this change how we think about commemorative months?  Hakeem Jeffries:    Yes, it's a great question. I do think AJC's leadership and certainly the leadership of my former colleague, and good friend, Ted Deutsch has been phenomenally important in this area. And your leadership, Julie, of course, and this podcast and communicating information to the American people will continue to be critical. And the fact that the Jewish community is facing a shocking rise in anti semitism and hate crimes is a cause for alarm for all of us. And it does, I think, lead to the important conclusion that we need to rethink how we lean into the celebrations and acknowledgments, such as Jewish American Heritage Month. That is not just simply an opportunity to be able to communicate to the American people about the many accomplishments, the many ways in every field of human endeavor that Jewish Americans have contributed to the growth and development of America as we know it. And that is important, and that is appropriate. And that is a central part of what celebrating Jewish American Heritage Month should be all about.  But it also provides a vehicle to make sure that the appropriate narrative is in the public domain in a compelling way, as a vehicle to push back against the rise in antisemitism and hate crimes. Because it's an all hands on deck approach. And it is going to require using every tool available to us. The rise in sort of hatred and extremism, and divisive, generally should trouble us all throughout America over the last several years, and particularly, the sharp and dramatic rise, particularly given the history of the Jewish community, over 1000s of years of persecutions, and pogroms and pain and suffering, should alarm us all. And it is exactly the reason why thinking about this month as one of the tools that we can use to push back aggressively against the rise and hatred is an important and appropriate approach. Julie Fishman Rayman: In April, during your first congressional delegation trip as Leader, you traveled to Israel. You have been a great supporter, supporting Israel’s right to defense and speaking out against anti-Israel sentiment time and time again. What were your biggest takeaways from this mission? What are the major challenges and opportunities for the U.S.-Israel relationship? Hakeem Jeffries:   Well, that was my sixth time traveling to Israel, fifth time as a member of Congress. And the first time that I traveled to Israel, I actually was a freshman member of the New York State Legislature as part of a trip sponsored by the JCRC of New York, a wonderful opportunity. Someone said to me recently, Julie, wait, wait. You've been to Israel six times. I said, Yes. That's more than any other country you've been to in the world. I said, That would be correct. Is it isn't that a lot? I said, No, not at all. First of all, I'm from New York City, where we consider Jerusalem to be the sixth borough. And I'm just trying to catch up to my constituents. Every time I go to Israel, it's a wonderful eye opening experience. This particular trip was meaningful to me in that I was able to actually lead a delegation for the first time in this position and choose where I would go to in the world as part of my first congressional trip on foreign soil, as the House Democratic Leader. And I chose to go to Israel and to Ghana, to incredibly meaningful countries to meet personally, to the people that I represent, and, of course, to the relationship that exists between the United States and Israel. And I wanted to do it so that it was timed to the anniversary of the 75th founding of the State of Israel, because I thought that will be meaningful for the members that agreed to travel with me and certainly meaningful to me to say to the world, that we're going to continue, as we've transitioned leadership in the House of Representatives, to stand behind the special relationship between the United States and Israel. And to make it clear that that's a special relationship that we as House Democrats believe, is anchored in our shared values and our shared strategic interests. And it was incredible because of the timing of we were there, both on the day of remembrance was incredibly moving. And I was able to participate in one of the ceremonies that we're held to acknowledge those who have been lost, both to acts of terror, and in the conflicts that Israel has been made to endure throughout the 75 year history. And then, of course, on the eve of the celebration connected to the 75th anniversary, and we had a very diverse group of members, several prominent Jewish American members of Congress, of course, like Josh Gottheimer and Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Dean Phillips, Sarah Jacobs, who was a new and emerging leader, but also the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus. Steve Horsford, the chair of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, Nanette Barragan, the first vice chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, Yvette Clarke, as well as the top Democrat on the foreign affairs committee, Greg Meeks. And so it was a wonderful experience. We had important public policy discussions with Prime Minister Netanyahu, President Herzog, with the Speaker of the Knesset, as well as the opposition leader, Lapid, they were open, they were honest, there were candid discussions about the challenges that our two countries face. But it was all anchored in our clear affirmation of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state, and our commitment as House Democrats to continue to lift up and elevate the special relationship between our two countries. Julie Fishman Rayman: So important. How's Israel doing at 75? Hakeem Jeffries:    I think Israel, it's a miracle, as has been described, that we've gotten to 75 years. And it's a testament to the strength, and the resilience and the ability, the heart, the soul, the love the intellect, of the Jewish people, and the people of the State of Israel. And I'm confident that through the challenges that we all face in Israel, the best is yet to come. You had an interesting discussion, because of the judicial reform, issues that are underway. And we've got challenges that we're working through here in the United States of America, certainly, as it relates to the Supreme Court, and what is the right, you know, balance in terms of our three branches of government. And we've got to work through that here. Many of us have been troubled by recent developments coming out of the Supreme Court, and Israel's working through trying to figure out what that right balance is, in terms of the rule of law, and the independence of the judiciary, and how that works together. I think what has been clear to me, in terms of Israel as a robust democracy, that will continue to be a robust democracy is not the challenge is that it's working through to find common ground. And those talks are being led, of course, by President Herzog. But most significantly, the fact that hundreds of 1000s of Israelis have been in the streets, exercising their right, their freedom of expression, their freedom of speech, their freedom of assembly, the right to peaceably gather and petition your government that is at the hallmark of a democratic society. And that's what we've seen, and not a single shot fired, probably nowhere else in the Middle East, would that have occurred other than in Israel, and it's an affirmation of Israel's democratic character. Julie Fishman Rayman: In just a few weeks, AJC will hold our annual Global Forum in Tel Aviv. What is one piece of advice you’d give the 1000 or so people coming from around the world to Israel at this time? Hakeem Jeffries:   Well, I do think that every time I've gone to Israel, what has been a wonderful aspect of the trip was talking to the full range of people in Israeli society, to get the perspectives on the ground in terms of their views related to the challenges that Israel confront, and the opportunities that exists to continue to thrive into the future. And those are particularly relevant conversations to have now that Israel has hit this incredible milestone of 75 years in what still remains one of the toughest, if not the toughest neighborhoods in the world. And one of the reasons why sustained dialogue, sustained opportunity to engage in wonderful that AJC is hosting this forum in the next month, is that the challenges are always unique whenever one arrives in Israel. You know, it could be Hamas, it could be Hezbollah, it could be uncertainty in terms of the Iranian malign activity in Syria. It's always, you know, Iran's efforts to try to secure a nuclear weapon and we're gonna make sure that Iran never becomes nuclear capable in Gaza. There are different moments in time, where particular concern meets a level of urgency, but it's always consistently within the frame of Israel living in a very tough neighborhood, which is what I, you know, we reiterated as House Democrats directly to Prime Minister Netanyahu, our commitment to ensuring Israel maintains its qualitative military edge. My view on this thing has always been, and I grew up in central Brooklyn, came of age in the mid to late 80s, early 90s. I kind of know from tough neighborhoods. That was a tough neighborhood. I grew up in Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Gaza, chaos in Syria, in Iraq, Iran with nuclear aspirations, dangerous situation in the Sinai. That's a tough neighborhood. And in a tough neighborhood. The one constant, as I've consistently said, is strength. You can achieve peace, you can achieve stability, but you can only achieve it through the lens of strength. And I think, part of the dialogue that we all should continue to have and will be important for AJC to continue to have is, you know, what are the severe threats that Israel currently confronts? And how can we continue to ensure that Israel has the strength to defend itself and to provide a foundation for lasting peace moving forward building upon things like the Abraham accords? Julie Fishman Rayman:  Prior to Israel, you and the members of congress who traveled with you to Israel went to Ghana, one of America’s closest allies in West Africa and a nation that still bears the painful scars of the transatlantic slave trade. At AJC’s 2019 Global Forum, you became the first member of the congressional Caucus on Black-Jewish Relations, I think less than an hour after it was officially launched. Did your back to back trips to Ghana and then Israel spark any insights as we continue–collectively–to try to bring Blacks and Jews closer together? Especially because Blacks and Jews were really strongly represented in your delegation? Hakeem Jeffries:   Yes, you know, AJC's effort in terms of forming the black Jewish caucus was a wonderful thing, a great foundation. And in many ways, the trip to Ghana and to Israel is in that same tradition. And as you pointed out, Julie, there were a lot of African American members of Congress who on the trip and a lot of Jewish men from the members of Congress who were on the trip who visited both countries. And, you know, we were able to involve Ghana, and in Israel and Ghana, visit the Cape Coast slave castles, which were central to the horrific transatlantic slave trade. And we also were able to visit Yad Vashem and I was able to lay a wreath and make it clear that we would never forget and never again, allow the Horus of what was seen during the Holocaust to occur. And it was important that in addition to, in Ghana, for instance, meeting with President Akufo Addo, to visit the site, for a lot of the activity of the transatlantic slave trade, and, of course, the ties that then connect to the African American community in the United States of America, and to visit the door of no return. But also to make sure that, in the time that we were in Israel, almost every time that I've been there, we've always made it a point to make sure that we visited Yad Vashem, it's always a very powerful, moving experience. And it was the same and to be able to do it together with black members of Congress and Jewish members of Congress, and leaders, who were not black and Jewish, but were on the trip with us, was really a powerful experience, I think, for everyone involved. And I think it's important for us to continue to try to lean in to strengthening the relationships between the black and Jewish community. It's something that because of the district that I represent, has always been central to my time and public service. And I do you know, I am moved by the fact that at least part of the district that I represent, and that told this story during the Democratic caucus celebration of Jewish American Heritage Month, but I tried to tell it whenever I get the opportunity that I do represent a district that was once represented in part by a manual seller. And a manual seller was the longest certain Congress person in the history of the country. He served for 50 years, first elected in 1922. And served through 1972.  He was a staunch ally and advocate for the special relationship between the United States and Israel from the very beginning. He was there, I believe, with Truman, when the United States first recognized Israel, and was there to support the special relationship every step of the way throughout the time that he was in Congress. But what also is little known about Manny seller, as he was affectionately known in Brooklyn, is that during the 1960s, he was also the chair of the House Judiciary Committee, which meant that he played an important role, legislatively, and making sure that the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, became the law of the land, to crush Jim Crow, and crushed the effort to oppress the ability of African Americans, particularly in the south to participate fully in our democracy. And then you go to civil rights museums across the country, and whenever there have been exhibits, even here in the Library of Congress, usually always an acknowledgement of the role that Manny Celler played. And I'm proud of the fact that I can represent a district that someone who was such an important link between the black and Jewish community and actually played a meaningful role in helping to advance legislation to change the course of America, in supporting the efforts and leadership of Dr. King and others, is an important thing.  That's a tradition that I look forward to continuing to build upon and at the same time, to be able to represent a district as I mentioned earlier, where I serve more Russian speaking Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union than anyone else. And to know that Dr. King took time out from his days of leading the civil rights movement, to speak to Jewish leaders and rabbinical leaders across the country famously anchored in his guiding principle, that injustice anywhere is a justice everywhere, and it was great injustice, being directed at the Jewish community that was behind the Iron Curtain during the days of the Soviet Union, and to use his voice to speak up on behalf of what he appropriately viewed as his Jewish brothers and sisters who are facing oppression. That example that was set by Dr. King, that example that was set by Congressman Judiciary Committee Chair Manny Celler, who wasn't just focused on strengthening the relationship between the United States and Israel, but also dealt with the injustices directed at African Americans throughout the United States. That's a powerful heritage for us in Congress, or us as leaders, as AJC has promoted, to continue to build upon. Julie Fishman Rayman: Thank you so much, you've provided us with such a sweeping understanding not just of the history-everything from Manny Celler to Dr. King to Yad Vashem. But also a vision for where we can all go collectively. Whether it's in May, during Jewish American Heritage Month, or Black History Month, or every day, trying to honor the legacy of Americans from all facets who lift up our great nation and make it what it is today. Leader Jeffries, thank you for your leadership and thank you for being with us. Hakeem Jeffries:   Thank you so much, what an honor Julie to be on and all the best to you and look forward to continuing to work closely with Ted, with AJC, on behalf of the issues that we all care about, particularly as it relates to the well being of the Jewish community here in the United States of America and throughout the world. Manya Brachear Pashman: If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with the Jewish bluegrass duo Nefesh Mountain, featuring not one but two live musical performances, a wonderful way to wrap up our month-long series of shows honoring Jewish American Heritage.  

Driven by their message of "radical love," hear how Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg, the husband and wife duo behind the renowned bluegrass band Nefesh Mountain, combat antisemitism within the music industry and beyond. Join us as we delve into their remarkable journey of representing Jewish-American culture, tradition, values, and spirituality through bluegrass and Americana music. The band also treats us to intimate performances from their latest album, "Songs for the Sparrows." *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  ___ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg ___ Show Notes: Learn more about:  Nefesh Mountain Take our quiz: Jewish American Heritage Month Quiz Test your knowledge of the rich culture and heritage of the Jewish people and their many contributions to our nation! Start now. Read: What is Jewish American Heritage Month? Jewish American Heritage Month Resources Faces of American Jewry Amazing Jewish Americans Listen: 8 of the Best Jewish Podcasts Right Now Sen. Jon Ossoff on Jewish Resilience Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg: Manya Brachear Pashman:     Nefesh Mountain arrived on the bluegrass and American music scene in 2014. The husband and wife duo of Eric Lindbergh and Doni Zasloff have since performed in hundreds of synagogues in the United States and around the world, representing Jewish American culture, tradition, values and spirituality in the world of bluegrass. Bluegrass Today magazine has described the duo as what happens when bluegrass and Jewish traditions meet and fall madly in love. In honor of Jewish American Heritage Month, Doni and Eric are with us now. Or I should say–we are with Doni and Eric now in their home in northern New Jersey, Doni, Eric, thank you for welcoming “People of the Pod.” Doni Zasloff:    Thank you for coming. We’re so excited to have you. Eric Lindberg:     What a treat.  Manya Brachear Pashman:    So please share with our listeners how the two of you got together. Did you have individual musical pursuits? Or did you not really find your groove until you were together as a duo. Eric Lindberg:     We're both pointing at each other. You tell it. Doni Zasloff:    You tell it. Eric Lindberg:   Well, we both had individual pursuits. We met playing music in the New York kind of North Jersey area. Years ago, we met back in 2010. And we were playing music in various fashions. And the quick story is that our band is a love story. And we fell in love a few years later, and it became apparent to each of us that we were head over heels crazy about each other. And that we also had all of this stuff that needed to come out that we kind of needed the other person to help kind of embolden our feelings of Americana music and of Jewish life and of culture and all this stuff.  So I grew up in Brooklyn. And so much of my life as a kid was part of the synagogue, my after school program, and my camp, and of course, synagogue and I had a Bar Mitzvah and I grew up with this big Jewish life in Brooklyn. But at a certain point, I became kind of just a musician, I didn't know where to put this Jewish side of myself. I went to study jazz in college and all this stuff.  So when I met Doni, she kind of brought me back to this feeling of, well, you can be proud of this and you can be excited about it. And you can live a fully Jewish life, you don't have to do it, any which way. You don't have to be a quote unquote, good or bad Jew, which, we hate those terms, but people tend to use them. Even Jewish people, of course, to show how religious or observant they're being at a certain time. So she had this completely unbridled kind of cowgirl way of looking at being wild and Jewish and proud and being yourself. And ultimately, I think that is pretty much the core of our message as a band. But I guess we'll get to that a little bit later. But she brought me back to this place of really just being proud of who I was. And that was the little germ that started this band. And then I brought kind of this musical sensibility in Americana music, with the banjo, and fiddle, and all this stuff.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   And Doni, how about you? What was your journey? Doni Zasloff:    I've always loved all different kinds of music. And I've always been very, as Eric was describing, just having a very strong Jewish spirit. And I think what Eric you know, it's exactly right. When Eric and I fell in love and started to really kind of get real with ourselves and we wanted to kind of express ourselves in the most authentic way. And I think my Jewish spirit and his massive knowledge of all kinds of music, and he just kept throwing CDs into my car–listen to this, listen to this, listen to this. And he just kind of opened my mind and my heart to so many styles of music that I--some of which I loved already, some of which I learned. It was just something about the stars aligning for Eric and I that the music that we started to write from our truest selves in that moment, came out in this Nefesh Mountain kind of a way. And it turns out, it's exactly our truth. And it's exactly the thing that we were looking for, this idea of our relationship, our connection. It is our truth and it's become our whole adventure. Manya Brachear Pashman:   And are you talking about the genre of music when you say that the Nefesh Mountain sound, or something else you’re referring to? Doni Zasloff:    It's not, it's like our language. It's the type of music that we play. It's the stories that we tell, it's the perspective that we have. A lot of people say, you know, where is Nefesh Mountain? Is that a place? And we always say it's a place. We made it up. But it's a place that we kind of, it's like a little dream world, that bubble that Eric and I have sort of dreamt up. Where, you know, it is a little like, the free to be you and me vibes of like, just be yourself. And it's infused with this huge range of musical styles. And Eric brings that to the table.  Manya Brachear Pashman:     Would you describe your genre or style as bluegrass? Or would you describe it as something else? I call it bluegrass. But what do you call it? Eric Lindberg:   That's a great question. Because we're right now kind of, you're catching us in the throes of exploring that. And we have been this whole time. I'm a huge fan of bluegrass music. But when I say that, like that means something to me. And it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to everybody. Of course, it's a word out there that means different things, like being Jewish means something different to everybody. You know, is it a religion? Is it a culture? And bluegrass has the same kind of thing where there's a purest form of bluegrass, which when you're talking about Bill Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, Stanley Brothers, etc, you know. And then you also have the Bluegrass that I grew up with, which was more of a quote, newgrass thing, and also really just ended up being kind of very fancy folk music with the likes of you know, people like Béla Fleck and Nickel Creek, and Punch Brothers and Sarah Jarosz. All these singer songwriters that are starting to write music with bluegrass instruments, and also improvising on a very high level. So bluegrass has become something that is actually more Americana. So these days, we're kind of using Americana. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Talk a little bit about the original purpose of your music, or message that you wanted to convey with your music together. Or the one that's evolved over time, perhaps? Eric Lindberg:   Well, the original purpose. I’ll say, it was all an accident. You know, we fell in love. That's always an accident. A beautifully happy, you know, accident that is ever evolving and beautiful. We, um...sorry. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Stop making lovey dovey eyes at each other. Actually, you can continue, I just wanted our listeners to know. Eric Lindberg: No, no. It's a big story. We fell in love. Your question was…say it again.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  You talked about wanting to be authentic, wanting to express yourselves originally. But has that purpose or intended message of your music evolved over time? Eric Lindberg: Yes, it has evolved and the purpose in the beginning, I noticed something when we first started making this music. As a fan of course, Americana, bluegrass, all this stuff. I noticed that so many artists could go out and sing songs about, about Jesus, about Christianity, about their spirituality. And it's not necessarily called religious or overtly Christian, or anything. It's just Americana. Because they are kind of synonymous.  And the fact that gospel music is kind of at the core and like in the bedrock of what has laid the foundation for Americana music, it goes without saying. So any secular artists can go out there and kind of be themselves in all of that. If they want to sing a gospel tune, well, let's do Will the Circle Be Unbroken, everyone will love it, you know, even though it's a gospel song. Or even songs that we've kind of turned on their ear a little bit like Wayfaring Stranger or Down to the River to Pray, I Fly Away, gospel songs that we love.  So this was our answer to that– we're gonna bring a sense of Jewish spirituality to the Americana table. And our first records, or really our first record. And then a little bit into the second dealt with some of our liturgy with some of the prayers that we had grown up singing, which, for us, meant a lot. Songs, like Henei Mah Tov, which is a whole song about how great it is to have friends and be together and, you know, celebrate each other's uniqueness and beauty. To songs like, Oseh Shalom, prayer for peace, or something like that.  Through the years, we found a new purpose. And we've also, you know, been a band through a very trying time in this country. You know, no matter what side of the political fence you're on, it's been, we're all living in a world where we pretty much don't agree. And it's kind of de facto, now, that we don't agree, and we're gonna fight. And unless you see exactly eye to eye with me, I'm your enemy. And we have now kind of taken a stance, we're not politicians by any stretch. But Doni has kind of created this term that I love, and it's called radical love, which is to, regardless of our backgrounds, regardless of, our opinion on this, that, or the other, we are going to look at people in the eye and embrace them, and to put love out, because that's what the world is clearly lacking.  And it's definitely a kind of hippie sentiment, peace and love, man. But we're fighting all the same things now that everyone was in the 60s, that everyone was in the 70s and 80s. And before that, and probably beyond. And we're challenged with the same issues. We're challenged with racism, antisemitism, a lack of empathy and diversity in neighborhoods and school systems and in cities and the world is still, we want to be happy. So we pretend that it's better than it is sometimes, but it's not great for so many people. And it is a Jewish ideal that I grew up with, this idea of Tikkun Olam, to make the world a little bit better. That's what we want to do through our music.   Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you feel like you have had opportunities to share and communicate that radical love? Are you getting through to people?  Doni Zasloff:   I think every time we get on a stage that is, in front of anyone really, whether it's a Jewish crowd in front of us, or whether it's a you know, a secular, diverse crowd of people, we don't know what their backgrounds are, we really are kind of stepping into a space where we are putting out this radical love. And I think that we have been blessed with an amazing response to it. People are skeptical about a lot of things. There are Jewish communities that were very skeptical about the banjo and very skeptical about the bluegrass thing. The amount of people that come up to us at a synagogue and say, I thought I hated bluegrass. I had no interest in bluegrass, I love it. Or I thought I was gonna hate you guys. Like I didn't understand what you guys were all about. But it turns out I really love it. So we're getting a lot of love wherever we go, which is kind of why no matter what's going on, we just keep doing it because, you know, we've also had responses from people of all backgrounds just hugging us, thanking us for sharing this, you know, culture with them. People have come up to me crying like thank you I, I've never met anybody Jewish, I just didn't know, I didn't know.  I think that music is so powerful, that it can break down so many walls and just shift people's ideas. And so I do think that the response to our radical love has been great. It's not easy, it's a little scary sometimes. It's not always been embraced. There are a lot of bluegrass festivals that wouldn't put us on their stages, because they don't want a Jewish band up there. They don't know what their crowd’s gonna think or how that would affect their bottom line, or I don't know. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Do they come right out and say that?  Doni Zasloff:   Pretty much, yeah, we've definitely gotten that feedback. It's hard to hear, as you can imagine, it's painful. But it's the truth, that there is antisemitism everywhere. Eric Lindberg:   Yeah, it used to be–we've been a band since about late 2014. And now, we're knee deep in 2023. And in the beginning stages maybe I was more naive. And I used to kind of think, because, again, the bluegrass world I had in my head was that of progressive music. But I will say that there is a flaw in the bluegrass world and some of the people who want to keep bluegrass being a certain way. And that explains part of our, you know, we will always play bluegrass. So it's not that we won't depart from the genre, but are exploring other areas as well, because we've had clear cut answers of: No, you will never be on this radio station. No, you will not be at this bluegrass festival. We don't have room for people that preach Jewish things. Which is not what we do at all. We have a big show,  I think we're a good band. We've done a lot. I'm proud of what we've done. You know, if the answer was no, because we don't believe you're good enough, then that'd be one thing. But the answer is clearly a Jewish issue. It's a tough thing to live with. So a little bit of me is, it's one of those things you hope as a little kid growing up, who loves music, who is crying and dancing and laughing and learning it and loving it. And it's the most exciting thing in your life, you hope that when you grow up, that it's not going to turn around and kind of kick you in the ass. And you're not going to see some of the dark underbelly of the world that you love. And unfortunately, some of that has happened. At the same time, I've gotten to play with my heroes, our heroes, Sam Bush and Jerry Douglas and Bryan Sutton. The people, the people that I've loved as musicians have all been the most beautiful, like creatures on planet Earth. They are very much beloved to us and our family.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   I'm not totally surprised. We love bluegrass as a family. But my kids do call it Jesus music occasionally. And we make sojourns to bluegrass jam sessions. There's one in Little Silver, New Jersey once a month that we've made the sojourn to at the little Methodist church there in town and I sing along with I Saw the Light. My eight year old wants to play the banjo, that's the musical instrument he has settled on to learn. That's why you guys stand out so much is that you have given to us, a sense of belonging. That like we belong in this world too, we belong in those seats as well. And so I'm not surprised that you have experienced that, but my heart is breaking a little as you talk. Eric Lindberg:   And I want to add that there's nothing wrong at all with bluegrass music, with celebrating Christianity and that spirituality, at all. And I just want to be really clear, because that's the music that I love. And I'll sing along with those songs, too. I love those songs. And it's not, as Doni was saying before, it's not like we haven't, we're playing a lot where there are folks that are saying yes, that are embracing us. But there is something about, you know, when you're Jewish, and when you get that kind of feedback, because it speaks more to antisemitism than I think the musical world or the culture that we live around us in, in this country. I hope that I am being clear in that, the music is beautiful, and the heritage is beautiful. And we're not saying we should be like, we love bluegrass culture, bluegrass music, Americana culture, all that stuff. We love our Jewish culture. And we only want to do right by both sides of that equation, you know, make sure that they're balanced and treated with love. Doni Zasloff:  But just like the world, there is, a little bit of a, not a little bit. I mean, the antisemitism that we're seeing, right now, in this country, it's everywhere, including what Eric was talking about. It doesn't just go away. We were at a big conference, and somebody came up to me, and I tell this story a lot, this guy came over to me in a big cowboy hat. And he just looked at me and he said, Why do you have to be here? Why do you have to play this music?  Eric Lindberg:   He actually said, you actually don't belong.  Doni Zasloff: Y'all don't belong here. This Jewish thing, just basically, get out. And I remember just like, taking a deep breath, walking outside, I think I cried a little bit. I think I called my dad. You know, I was just like, What am I doing here? Like, this is nuts. You know, but then I walked back in and I'm getting, hugs and like, a lot of love. So, you know, this is part of being outwardly Jewish, I think right now. Like, it's just kind of what happens. Eric Lindberg:   And that's the phrase that we haven't, we haven't said yet, because it seems like kind of a strange thing, to be outwardly Jewish. What does that mean? And I didn't grow up in a world where, where people did this, you know, and it kind of boils down to, there's a decision that we have to make that I had to make, and Doni, as musicians that are we going to be a band that is just about the music. And largely we are, actually we want to make good music first and foremost. And we also want to be a band that is, we live in this world, and we are seeing a rise in antisemitism, and we are scared about it. It troubles us and it makes my blood pressure rise and it's terrifying. And if we don't say anything about it, if we're not outwardly Jewish, if we're not openly wearing the star on our chest, you know, so to speak, or on our shoulders. I don't think we're doing ourselves a service. I think we're hiding behind something. For better or worse we're openly going out there and talking about this stuff all the time, because, you know, it won't get better if we don't. Manya Brachear Pashman:  You have recorded three albums, you're getting ready to release a fourth. Is that correct? Eric Lindberg:   Yeah, we actually have four albums out. One is a live one that we kind of snuck out at the end of 2021. Okay. But yeah, there's four that you can stream or buy or any of that stuff, and we have some new music coming out that we're really excited about. Manya Brachear Pashman: If you could talk a little bit about the inspiration behind those albums, because I know that they tell stories. And I'm curious if you could, you could share with our listeners.  Eric Lindberg:   “Songs for the Sparrows” is the most personal and adventurous recording that we've done, it was a huge undertaking. But maybe Doni, you want to tell them a little bit about the inspiration behind that record. Doni Zasloff: That record was inspired by a trip that Eric and I took with our older kids and my mother. My mom did all of this research about our family history, in Eastern Europe, and found all of this information and was able to locate the town that our families we're from. And so we did this big roots trip. It turns out I'm from Ukraine, I thought I was from Poland, but now it's Ukraine. And so we went on this trip, and we saw the town that my family was from and then we saw the forest outside of this town where some of my ancestors, we believe, were shot.  We saw so many things, this trip really kind of just rocked us. I mean, it's everything that we've learned about. But to go there and to see it, it's not in a book, it's not in black and white. It's there and to see that the history was kind of almost trying to be erased, in modern times. It was hiding, we had to dig it up to even know that it had happened. Eric Lindberg:   Literally hiding like we'd get there, we were in Lviv, this is of course before current day, this is back in 2018. And we were in this kind of great shopping area and parking lot and our tour guide had to say, you know, this was a cemetery. This was one of our flea markets. It was like a flea market and it was like what's going on? And there's vibrant life happening but at the same time, no one was… Doni Zasloff: Everything was destroyed, everything, you know, everything hundreds and hundreds of synagogues. I mean almost all of our ancestors, you know, this is where it all was at. But anyway, so we were on this trip. And while we were there I posted a picture on Facebook saying you know I'm on this roots trip. And then one of Eric's cousins like a distant cousin Reuvain, who had also done a lot of research on his family history, started sending email after email to Eric saying, Eric Eric, you are from six hours south of Lviv, you are from the Carpathian Mountains, that's where our family is from, you should go. So we turn the bus around, we ended up going six hours south to the Carpathian Mountains, so that we could see where Eric's family was from the next day. Eric Lindberg:   And just like you thought your family was from Poland, I thought my family's from Austria-Hungary. But in '91, the borders all shifted. And so my grandma grew up, you know, grandma, where we from, she spoke a little Hungarian and, and Yiddish too. It was always Austria-Hungary. That's where we were from. And now of course, it's present day Ukraine. Doni Zasloff:   Right, so we take this six hour drive south, and through the help of Reuvain, were able to find the cemetery where Eric's great grandfather was buried. Hours of looking, and we finally get there, and it had been destroyed. But somebody actually was trying to restore it. But it was little bits and pieces of stones everywhere. But at least it was kind of marked as something. So we went in there and looked for hours, we spent hours trying to find a little evidence of something with his great-grandfather's name on it. We never found anything.  But there was a moment when we were walking around the cemetery that we looked up and saw all of these little birds flying above us, these tiny little sparrows. And there was just something that kind of was very breathtaking about the whole experience and kind of weird. We went through this whole trip, kind of taking it all in. It was a very emotional as you can imagine, like, just very intense trip. We got home and we're trying to like process it six weeks after we returned home was the tree of life shooting in Pittsburgh. So it was like, you know, part of our brains would like you know, that was the past that when it happened over there, this was a terrible thing. It happened over there. Then suddenly we come home and it's happening here. And there's this hate and there's this violence and so it was just like all swirling in our heads and we just kept thinking we have to do something we have to like we just felt compelled to make Now we'll basically or to do something, we didn't know what it was gonna be, we just had to write. But then we kept coming back to that moment with the bird with the sparrows, when we were walking around the cemetery. And Eric and I had this thought, well, maybe those sparrows were our ancestors. And maybe the and then the sparrow, maybe the sparrow. And we learned that sparrows live all over the world. They're small and mighty, and they live and their sparrows everywhere, there's sparrows outside of this house, there are sparrows in Ukraine, there's sparrows everywhere. So the sparrow has become, you know, became a symbol or a totem for anyone who has been discriminated against and hated for just being themselves. You know, whether it's our ancestors, or anyone, right now who's just not being accepted for the person that they were born to be.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   Unbelievable. I want to ask you about your upbringing. And I know Eric grew up in Brooklyn, but where did you grow up? Did you have a bat mitzvah? What’s your spiritual journey? Doni Zasloff:  I was born in New York. And then I lived a little bit in Boston and then I grew up in DC in the DC area and then Philadelphia and then I moved to New York so it's been you know, East Coasty.  So I grew up going to Jewish camps and Jewish schools and I had this very intense connection to my Jewish spirituality. Like, I hated it, I loved it, I challenged it. It was like, I needed it. I didn't want it, you know, it was but I was in it. You know, I had this relationship with my Jewish identity. Even as a little kid, like a little girl, I remember, I wrapped to fill in when I you know, in a Jewish Day School setting, and like the rabbis were like, you know, angry at me, you know, things like that. Like, I was just like, really rebellious in my relationship with my Jewish self and going to Jewish schools and things like that. So I don't know, I felt like a Jewish cowgirl really my whole life.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   You have a film crew that has been shadowing you for quite a while now. Six months. And tell us a little bit about “We Sing Nonetheless.” Which is the title of an upcoming documentary. Eric Lindberg:   Yeah, it's really exciting. We met this awesome gentleman, Adam, up in Boston, we were playing a show, I believe that was at his synagogue. But we were, you know, it was just after the show, and I'm like, kind of sweaty, over by the merch or something, and I just start talking to this guy. And he's like, I'm a documentary filmmaker. Little did I know, he's an Emmy award winning documentary filmmaker, and his last project,  Dawnland with the--Upstander Project is the name of the organization. And we became really kind of fast friends, so much in common. And we just kind of started texting a little and throwing around some, could this work.I'm kinda like, there’s gonna be a documentary about us? I mean, what we do is really important, but I kind of forget that we're the ones that do it sometimes. And I'm like, You're gonna follow us around and, and do this thing. And he was serious about it. And it's turned into, it's happening. It's a project. It's gonna be a movie.  And the working title is We Sing Nonetheless, which is borrowed from one of our lyrics. It's from this song called Tree of Life. It's a bigger story, because we wrote it the day of the Pittsburgh shooting. But the refrain in that song is this lyric, but we sing nonetheless. Despite this pain that we've gone through with everything we've talked about with the sparrows and all this stuff, we sing nonetheless. And it's a lyric that we of course, we love, we wrote it. But when Adam came to us and said, that could be a theme. I was kind of blown away, because that's kind of one of the core messages of the band, which is that, despite history, and what history tells us and what we've learned, we are here, so we have to sing, we have to make that choice to sing. Doni Zasloff: And it's so Jewish. I mean, it's just such a Jewish like, that's what we do. So it just feels –actually he came up with the title. And I just burst out crying. I was just like, oh, yeah, that's kind of, that's just how my life has been. It's just always that, you know. Manya Brachear Pashman: I want to talk about one of my favorite songs of yours, and one of the most calming: tell us about the inspiration behind Evermore (Hashkiveinu), which is another song off your album Song For the Sparrows. Doni Zasloff: Oh, yeah. I love the gosh, every song's like another one of our babies but the song that we wrote called, Hashkiveinu, the Hashkiveinu prayer that was inspired. Eric started writing that, I think because I was having a hard time sleeping. And I think you wrote that one to try to help me get through the night.  Eric Lindberg: Yeah. Doni Zasloff:  When I was like, I just have a hard, sometimes I just can't, not sometimes, most times. Eric Lindberg:   Still some days you're just like, I didn't sleep. That's actually a great one to bring up because it's based on this ancient prayer, Hashkiveinu. It’s based on this ancient idea. And then when really reading the text and we looked through a lot of different translations and it's just beautiful that we would you know, that moment at night before sleep, first of all, we all have it's universal. And the idea that these angels come and like take us to this land and like golden shores and all this kind of like cool imagery.  Doni Zasloff:   [singing, acapella] Shelter, oh shelter as night... Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg:   [singing, acapella] Shelter, oh shelter as night settles in  Lay us down beside tranquil shores  So we can dream of the wings  That'll bring us home again  For now, and evеrmore Eric Lindberg:   Something like that.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   Beautiful.  Eric Lindberg:   Yeah, I mean, but that's our task. You know, sometimes if we are looking at a song from a prayer, I'm glad you brought it up because, while we're not like, the word religious can mean something different to everybody, but these prayers are based in also our culture and our heritage. And it's all one if you're living a Jewish life, and I think that this is one of these beautiful, poetic, whimsical, magical prayers, that is, that is a part of our culture that we're super proud of. And we kind of wrote this folk song around it, about being able to get yourself to sleep, despite the day you've had. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Beautiful. Would you mind closing us out with another song? Doni Zasloff:   [guitar playing] This song’s called Where Oh Where, it was intended to be a song of hope, inspired by nature. And it's a response to all of the not so great things that we're seeing around us, to try to comfort ourselves really. But it's called Where Oh Where. Doni Zasloff and Eric Lindberg: [singing, with guitar]  Where oh where are the sweetest songs Of Miriam and her daughters? They were sung beside the seas and tides So still must be out on the waters Still on the waters   Where oh where is the wisdom Sung by the many before us? She was there inside the tree of life So still must reside in the forest Still in the forest   Yai da dai da dai dum dai dai Dum dai ya da dum dai Ya da dai da dai dum dai dai Dum dai ya da dum dai   Where oh where is the innocence From our first days in Eden? They used to rest their heads on the flowerbeds So still must be there in the gardens Still in the gardens   Yai da dai da dai dum dai dai Dum dai ya da dum dai Ya da dai da dai dum dai dai Dum dai ya da dum dai   Where oh where's the forgiveness From the age of the flood so long ago? Under all the rain the earth remained So it’s still in the fields and the meadows In the fields and the meadows   Yai da dai da dai dum dai dai Dum dai ya da dum dai Ya da dai da dai dum dai dai Dum dai ya da dum dai   Where oh where's our compassion Is it somewhere we can discover? It's never too far, it’s right where you are It's always been in the arms of each other Manya Brachear Pashman:   Thank you so much.  Eric Lindberg:  Sure thing.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   It’s been a jam-packed Jewish American Heritage Month here on People of the Pod: we kicked off with AJC CEO Ted Deutch, popped into the kitchen with Busy in Brooklyn food blogger and cookbook author Chanie Apfelbaum, and last week, we heard from from Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff. Thank you for joining us to close out the month with Nefesh Mountain. Tune in later this week for our sit-down with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries.

Senator Jon Ossoff (D-GA), the first millennial Senator and the first Jewish member of the Senate from Georgia, joins us to honor Jewish American Heritage Month. He shares his family's survival against antisemitism and his efforts to combat it today through his work on the Senate Bipartisan Task Force for Combating Antisemitism. He also discusses his connection to Israel and feeling Jewish and proud at a recent Yom HaShoah event in his home state. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  ___ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Jon Ossoff ____ Show Notes: Take our quiz: Jewish American Heritage Month Quiz: Test your knowledge of the rich culture and heritage of the Jewish people and their many contributions to our nation! Start now. Read: What is Jewish American Heritage Month? Jewish American Heritage Month Resources Faces of American Jewry Amazing Jewish Americans Listen: 8 of the Best Jewish Podcasts Right Now "Busy in Brooklyn" Food Blogger Chanie Apfelbaum Talks Kosher Cuisine and Jewish Heritage Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Jon Ossoff: Manya Brachear Pashman: Jon Ossoff was a documentary filmmaker and investigative journalist before he became a United States senator representing Georgia. He is the youngest member of the Senate elected since 1980. The first millennial in fact. He's also the first Jewish member of the Senate from Georgia. In fact, the first Jewish Senator from the deep south since 1878. Senator Ossoff joins us now in honor of Jewish American Heritage Month. Senator, welcome to People of the Pod. Jon Ossoff: Manya, thank you so much for the invitation. It's an honor to be here.  Manya Brachear Pashman: So, Israel just celebrated its 75th birthday. It's a young country, but it's twice as old as you. You are 36, I believe. How do you relate to that historic milestone, as someone who's Jewish, who’s a father, as a Senator who knows Israel's strategic importance to the United States? How do you relate to Israel? Jon Ossoff: Well, I think I should begin with a reflection on how my family's story has influenced me and influenced how I think about US-Israel relations. I was sworn in to the Senate, and in my jacket pocket at that moment, had the ship's manifests, documenting the arrival of my great grandparents, Annie and Israel, at Ellis Island, from Eastern Europe, in 1911 and 1913. And they left Eastern Europe in the early 20th century, as so many European Jews did, fleeing antisemitism. And while many members of my family and ancestors managed to escape, as in so many Jewish families, there were many who did not. And of those who did not, to my knowledge, all but one perished in the Holocaust. And I remember as a very young child, spending time with my uncle Nate, I called him uncle Nate. He had escaped, and hidden in the forests around the camp and the worksite, until he was liberated.  And I remember as a young child sitting with him and tracing with my finger, the numbers tattooed into his arm. And I think so many American Jews have experiences like that one, having grown up among Holocaust survivors. And growing up among survivors, and being keenly aware of the genocide of Jews, the attempt with industrial-scale brutality to extinguish the Jewish people forever, has a profound impact on all Jews, all Jews in the United States, all Jews around the world.  And of course, it has a profound impact on how I view the State of Israel, recognizing that the State of Israel was established 75 years ago as Jews rebuilt in the ashes of the Holocaust, and sought to establish a secure homeland for the Jewish people.  I am now, as many American Jews are, deeply concerned about Israel's future, deeply concerned about the trends and dynamics and risks in the broader Middle East. And as an American policymaker, of course, particularly focused on US national security interests and other interests in the region. So I have worked for the last couple of years, to build strong working relationships, on a foundation of trust with regional leaders in Israel, in neighboring and surrounding countries, and in the Palestinian Authority, so that I can play a constructive role advancing US interests, and working to ensure that Israel can survive as a democracy and a secure homeland for the Jewish people. And also that all people in this region can one day flourish in peace and security and freedom. Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you believe that your colleagues share that understanding of the importance of Israel, the importance of Israel to the Jewish people. And as a follow up to that, you know, we deal a lot with combating and fighting antisemitism. How much of today's antisemitism is kind of disguised as anti-Israel criticism, and has to do with a lack of understanding of the role of Israel? Jon Ossoff: Look, I think that these things can and sometimes do overlap. And I think we also have to be clear that in our free society, and as we as free citizens discuss the state of the world, we also have to avoid dismissing any critical views of Israeli policy as mere antisemitism, because there are many principled people who have a diversity of views about the Middle East region, who hold those views in good faith, not born of any kind of religious hatred.  You know, as for my colleagues in the Senate, I do believe that there is a growing and strong awareness of the rising tide and threat of antisemitism at this moment here in the United States, and around the world. In Georgia, just recently, there have been multiple incidents of hateful antisemitic literature being littered in the yards and driveways of Jews in different communities across the state. We've seen, of course, a significant increase in hate crimes, violent threats, and acts of violence, targeting Jews.  And I was speaking recently at a Yom Hashoah event at a cemetery in Atlanta. It's an annual event that I attend, the Israeli Consul General typically attends, and local Jewish community leaders. And I heard a baby crying during the ceremony. And when I made my remarks, and as a father, my wife, Alicia, and I have an 18 month old baby daughter at home. I shared with the crowd how to me and I think to all of us how profound it was to hear a baby crying at an event remembering the unfathomable loss of the Holocaust, because that baby's voice is proof that the effort to destroy the Jewish people failed, and that we survived and that we persist.  But that Jewish child is also growing up at a time when antisemitism continues to grow as a threat to Jews in the United States and around the world, which requires us to be vigilant and determined, informed by our people's history. That threats to Jews have not been permanently defeated. As they have throughout history, they rise and rise again and we have to be ever vigilant. Manya Brachear Pashman: You have confronted antisemitism in the past, some very classic conspiracy theories. I'm curious how you confront that personally. And what government's role is in combating antisemitism? Jon Ossoff: There was the widely covered, widely condemned incident during my Senate campaign. When my opponent’s campaign doctored an image of my face to lengthen my nose, portray me as the sort of classic caricature, antisemitic caricature. And look, of course, as a public figure, some of the hate and ill will and sometimes threats that come my way have within them or are motivated by hatred of Jews and antisemitism.  You know, I think as a public figure Manya, I have had to build the armor, personally necessary to protect myself and my family, to weather threats and insults that come with public life and leadership in the public arena. But for those who have not chosen a life in the public eye, you know, the swastika spray painted on the garage door, the hateful pamphlet dropped in the driveway, the threatening anonymous voicemail. You know, it's more than just upsetting and disturbing. It represents a threat to a family's safety. It represents a threat to children, to life, to property, and it undermines and can destroy the trust that we have, that our communities are open and tolerant, and based upon love and acceptance of one another, regardless of our faith. So it's a deeply worrying and corrosive and threatening dynamic in our society right now. Manya Brachear Pashman: So, should Jewish families build a similar armor, similar to what you have developed as a public figure? Or does the government have a role in doing something to combat it? Jon Ossoff: Private citizens should not have to weather and endure and be subjected to hatred and harassment and bigotry. And there is a role for leaders in government. I work alongside my colleague, Senator Jackie Rosen of Nevada, on the bipartisan Joint Task Force on Antisemitism to develop solutions within Congress.  But at this moment of increased hatred, and violence, and division along all kinds of lines in our society: religious, racial, ethnic, political, cultural, all of us, leaders and citizens, are called upon to promote and defend and strengthen the loving and trusting and tolerant bonds between neighbors and fellow citizens to make our society more resilient to the fringe, which promotes hatred, and to ensure that the United States lives up to its highest ideals as a place where, regardless of where one came from, or how one worships one can be free and safe and treated with dignity. Manya Brachear Pashman: In fact, you called for a federal task force, an inter-agency Task Force to address Antisemitism back in December. That task force has become a reality. And I'm curious if you feel like that task force should be working toward more of a civil society response or actual government agencies, policies to really curb the spread of antisemitism? Or maybe it's a combination of both. Jon Ossoff: Look, I think that there is clearly a role for leaders in government and elected officials to promote and strengthen policies and ideals that defend the public against hate crimes, against violence, against harassment. And this also has to be a broader effort shared by leaders in all fields, business leaders, faith leaders, civic leaders, community leaders, and every ordinary citizen.  The reality is that despite how hateful and divided the public discourse can seem, and is, and despite the alarming and dangerous rise in antisemitism, and various forms of hatred, most people are deeply good. Most people are kind. Most people cherish the American ideals of equal justice, freedom of religion, and the basic idea that this is a place where people from all kinds of family backgrounds coexist and live together as Americans not on the basis of one religious creed or racial identity or national origin, but on the basis of commitment to our country's fundamental values. And I think we all have a role to play in defending and lifting up that vision of our society at a time when there is so much hate in the political and cultural and social discussion. Manya Brachear Pashman: You interned in high school for the late Congressman John Lewis of blessed memory, a longtime dear friend of AJC. What is the direction of the relationship between black and Jewish communities in America? Where are the points of tension, the points of promising engagement? Where do we go from here? Jon Ossoff: You know, sort of an extraordinary 24 hours in Georgia’s history and US History: January 5, to January 6, of 2021. On January 5, the state of Georgia, and you know, our complex history, as both the cradle of the Civil Rights Movement and the heart of the Old Confederacy, elected to the US Senate, the 33 year old Jewish son of an immigrant, and a black pastor, who holds the same pulpit that Dr. King did at Ebenezer Baptist Church. The first black senator in Georgia's history, the first Jewish Senator in Georgia's history, the first Jew elected to the Senate from the deep south since 1878.  And that is a powerful testament to what I was describing earlier that, you know, despite the level of hatred and division that we see in our public life, this country has come so far in terms of tolerance. But it wasn't 12 hours later, that the US Capitol was being ransacked by a hateful and violent mob. In some cases, sporting neo-Nazi and Confederate symbols, who tried to use violence, to prevent the peaceful transfer of power in our democracy, a core process in our constitutional system.  And so while what happened on January 5 demonstrated how far we have come, what happened the next day demonstrated the reality of the very real and present threat to those values. I mentioned that I was sworn in with, in my jacket pocket, the ship's manifests documenting my great grandparents' arrivals at Ellis Island. 2 I was also sworn in on the Tanach that had belonged to Rabbi Jacob Rothschild, who had been the longtime rabbi at the temple, the Atlanta synagogue that I attended growing up, and where I was Bar Mitzvahed. And the temple in 1958 was bombed by the Klan in retaliation for Rabbi Rothschild’s alliance with Dr. King and his denunciation of segregation. And I was sworn in on that Tanach because, of course of the special role that that synagogue had played in my upbringing, but also because of the values that it represented as a possession of Rabbi Rothschild’s at the moment when Senator Warnock and I had been elected.  And since Congressman Lewis had been a key mentor in my life, and I, so well recall that one of the first things he ever explained to me in great detail, when we sat down together, was the historic alliance between blacks and Jews in the civil rights movement, how he had marched alongside rabbis and Jews who had come to the south in the Freedom Summer to demand civil rights and voting rights. And, you know, that's a legacy of solidarity between two peoples who have had very different, but both long-term struggles against hatred, genocide. And I think it's a bond that needs to be nourished and strengthened. Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you see obstacles in the way of that? Jon Ossoff: Look in Georgia, the Jewish and black communities love one another, work closely together. And there is always room for growth. And so Manya in closing, I have to run in vote on the floor of the Senate in just a moment. I just want to, if I might, take this opportunity to reiterate what I said earlier, but at a moment like this, when there is hatred and violence, threatening and in the air, and on the ground, in reality. And when Jewish families and many American families of various minority backgrounds feel threatened by the rise in hate crimes, and religious, racial, ethnic, and cultural hatred, it's our shared obligation to make real a country that lives up to America's highest ideals.  And I believe that we can, and we will, by pulling together and believing in that and working together to defend what's best about the United States. I really appreciate the opportunity to spend some time with you. And thank you for the work you do, getting information out there and connecting Jews across the country through this podcast.  Manya Brachear Pashman: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Senator. Thank you so much for joining us. Jon Ossoff: Thank you, take care.

To continue our Jewish American Heritage Month celebrations, guest host Laura Shaw Frank, AJC's director of William Petschek Contemporary Jewish Life, speaks with Chanie Apfelbaum, author of the popular food blog Busy in Brooklyn. Chanie joins us to discuss her new cookbook, "Totally Kosher," the intersection of Jewish culture and food, and the future of kosher cuisine. She also shares how the murder of her brother, Ari Halberstam, who was killed in a 1994 terrorist attack on the Brooklyn Bridge, has inspired her career. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  ____ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Chanie Apfelbaum ____ Show Notes: Take our quiz: Jewish American Heritage Month Quiz: Test your knowledge of the rich culture and heritage of the Jewish people and their many contributions to our nation! Start now. Read: What is Jewish American Heritage Month? Jewish American Heritage Month Resources Faces of American Jewry Amazing Jewish Americans Listen: 8 of the Best Jewish Podcasts Right Now AJC CEO Ted Deutch on the Importance of Jewish American Heritage Month From Israel: AJC’s Avital Leibovich Breaks Down Latest Gaza Escalation Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Chanie Apfelbaum Manya Brachear Pashman: People of the Pod is celebrating Jewish American Heritage Month by devoting all our May episodes to what makes us Jewish and proud -- food, music, and our mission to repair the world. Last week you heard from AJC CEO Ted Deutch about why we should set aside a month to celebrate. This week nods to our obsession with food.  And for that, I’ll turn it over to my guest co-host, Laura Shaw Frank, AJC’s Director of Contemporary Jewish Life. Laura, the mic is yours. Laura Shaw Frank: Thanks, Manya. Happy Jewish American Heritage Month!  As we celebrate Jewish American culture and history this month, it feels like we would be quite remiss if we didn’t spend some time talking about Jewish food. Food plays an enormous role in Jewish tradition and culture. Jews have foods linked to particular Jewish holidays and of course Shabbat, ethnic foods linked to particular places where Jews lived, and of course, lots of Jews, myself included, keep kosher, follow the laws of Kashrut, which deeply influences the way we cook and eat.  I think I’d be pretty safe in saying that Jewish food is really important in Jewish life. Not surprisingly, statistics bear this out. In the Pew Survey of Jewish Americans in 2020 over 70% of American Jews, young and old alike, reported cooking or eating traditional Jewish foods. Which is why I’m so excited to be joined by today’s guest, Chanie Apfelbaum. Chanie is a food writer and photographer whose blog “Busy in Brooklyn” is chock full of delectable recipes and beautiful pictures of amazing Jewish foods. Her newest cookbook, Totally Kosher, hit bookstores in March 2023. Chanie, welcome to People of the Pod. Chanie Apfelbaum: Thanks so much for having me. Laura Shaw Frank: I'm thrilled to have you and really thrilled to talk to you about your new cookbook. So before we get into that, though, let's take a step backward. How did you get into kosher cooking?  Chanie Apfelbaum: Well, I was born Jewish. That's the first step, always. I always say– learning your way around the kitchen is just a rite of passage when you get married. And being a Jewish housewife, obviously, we have, you know, Shabbat dinner every week, and so many holidays, and Jews are always just celebrating around food. I actually never stepped foot in the kitchen before I got married, never really helped my mom, my older sister used to help with cooking. It just looked like a chore to me. I am a very creative soul, very artistic. And it just seemed like a whole lot of rules. And I just wasn't interested. And then I got married. And I would call my mother every Friday and like, how do I make gefilte fish and potato kugel, and chicken soup. And I started hosting a lot. And people started asking me for my recipes. And I realized that I kind of had a knack for presentation. Because I've always been artistic. And you know, like composition and things like that. And my food always was presented nicely and looked beautiful. So it kind of got me you know, a little bit interested, piqued my interest. And I realized that it could be a way for me to explore my creative side.  So I I started watching The Food Network a lot. And I subscribed to Bon Appetit Magazine, and started looking at cookbooks. And then when I had my third child, I didn't want to really work outside the house anymore. So I was like, What should I do with myself, I'm not the type of person that could just be a stay at home mom, I would lose my mind. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna start a blog. And there really weren't any food blogs and no kosher food blogs.  This is back in 2011. There was Smitten Kitchen, there was Pioneer Woman, those are both pioneers in the blogging world, in general. And there definitely weren't any kosher blogs. And I just, you know, I started my blog. And like I said, I wasn't cooking, you know, the traditional Jewish, heimish Ashkenazi food that I grew up with. Talking a little about being a mom. I had my crochet projects on there. And it was just like my place to get creative and have an outlet. And then feedback really started pouring in, everything I was posting, people were so interested. It didn't exist in the kosher world.  And despite not being a big foodie, I just continued to just do my thing and taking terrible pictures in the yellow light of my kitchen island, on automatic, with my terrible camera. And over time, just my food started to evolve, my photography started to evolve.  And fast-forward a couple of years, I went to a kosher culinary school, which really helped me kind of opened my mind to new flavors, which I was I think stuck a little bit in the Ashkenazi palate of paprika and garlic powder, as I like to say, and just tried all these Indian food and Thai food and all these flavors that I literally never ever experienced. And it just blew my mind open in so many ways.  Being creative, a few of my friends kind of started blogs around the same time. And every time a holiday would come around, it was like who's going to come up with the coolest latke or the coolest humentasch, or the most creative donut. So it really pushed my competitive side and also my creative side. And I just started really thinking outside the box and doing a lot of these cool twists on tradition and fusion recipes and caught a lot of attention in mainstream media and everything went from there, I guess. Laura Shaw Frank: That's amazing. I want to pick up on one thing that you said. You said when you started blogging that so many people got in touch with you. And you were obviously bringing them content that they hadn't seen before. What do you think was missing from the conversations around kosher food before you entered the space? I mean, I'll just you know, tell you when I got married, everyone got the Spice and Spirit cookbook from Lubavitch. I still use it, by the way. It's a fantastic cookbook. It's a more traditional cookbook. And so tell us a little bit about what did you bring that was different to kosher cooking? Chanie Apfelbaum: You know what, there's one story that sticks out in my mind that really, because I've always been this person that picks up hobbies along the way, like every creative thing. I'm knitting, I’m  crocheting. I'm scrapbooking, kind of all these type of things. I pick up a hobby, I do it for a couple of months and then I kind of let it go. So I always asked myself, like, what was it about food blogging that really stuck for me, and I think that I realized the power of it.  One year, I made this recipe for the nine days when we don't eat meat, you know, between before Tisha B’Av, some people have accustomed not to eat any meat recipes, because it's a time of mourning, it's a serious time before the anniversary of the destruction of the Holy Temple. So wine and meat are more celebratory things that we eat. So those are restricted for nine days before Tisha B’av.  So I made this recipe for Chili Pie in Jars. And it was a vegetarian chili, a layer of cheddar cheese, and cornbread, and you bake it in a mason jar in the oven. So each person has basically their own pie. So I made this recipe and I put it in on my blog, and this is before Instagram, can't DM somebody a picture, it's before smartphones, you can’t just take a picture on your smartphone. So somebody took out their digital camera, took a picture of their families sitting around the table, everyone's holding their own mason jar, and like, took the SD card out, put it in their laptop and sent me an email. This is early days of my blog. I get this picture. I see a whole family sitting around the table eating my recipe and I'm like, oh my god,  how powerful is this, that I have the opportunity to bring families around the table, it is so special.  And I think that that's something that really stuck with me through all my years of blogging and really at the core, for me, what keeps me going because I realize the power of food. Especially, as a proud Jew, to celebrate our traditions through food, because, thank God through my platform, I get messages from people–someone sent me a message from literally Zimbabwe making Challah for the first time. It’s just so special to me.  So, obviously, as a mom of five, I'm always cooking dinner, and it can feel like a chore. I get cooking fatigue like everybody else. And cooking Shabbat dinner every week. I always say in the main world, they make this big deal about Thanksgiving, you know, you have to plan your menu from Sunday, and then your shopping list from Tuesday and all that but like we literally have Thanksgiving every Friday night. It's a three course or four course meal sometimes. So yeah, I get the cooking fatigue.  And for me, I want to show people how to bring the love back in the kitchen. You know, how food can be more than just a way of sustaining ourselves, it could be a way of celebrating our Jewishness, it could be a way of bringing our family around the table, it could be a way of getting pleasure out of life. Food can be so delicious, and it can open your eyes and experience global cuisine. That's so cool and amazing. So I had that aha moment for myself, and I want other people to have it too. Laura Shaw Frank: That's amazing. I love that. So what you're really saying is that food and culture are really intertwined with one another. And you gave this example of the nine days before the Jewish fast day of Tisha B’Av, which takes place in the summertime, when it's traditional among religious Jews to not eat meat and wine and talking about sort of adjusting recipes. Could you give us a couple of other examples of ways that you see sort of Jewish history, Jewish culture, Jewish tradition embedded in food? Chanie Apfelbaum: Look at the holidays, right, Rosh Hashanah, we have a lot of symbolic foods. Most people know of apple and honey, but there are actually a whole range of symbolic foods that we eat. The actual names and Hebrew of those foods, point to different things that we want for our year,like we eat a fish head because we want to be like a head and not a tail. For me that really helped me kind of zone in on what is my niche here, right? I am a kosher food blogger, but how do I define my skill or who I am because every blogger kind of has their thing. And for me a lot of it is centered around the holidays because first of all for me like I have so many beautiful memories growing up.  My mother is very much a traditional Ashkenazi cook, making kugel and gefilte fish and cholent and matza ball soup. She doesn't veer away from that. Those are the dishes that I grew up on and they're so nostalgic for me and there's a place for that. Our home was always open, we had so many guests. I actually grew up in Crown Heights. So I really zone in a lot on holiday foods, but putting my own spin on it, because I feel like people want something fresh and new and exciting. And I definitely think there's a place for the traditional foods. You want to mix it up and have a little bit something fresh and new and something old, that's great. We're lucky that we have that core of our heritage and our traditions throughout the year with so many Jewish holidays that allow us to get together, with family, with friends, and celebrate our Jewishness. Laura Shaw Frank: So, my husband and my three sons are all vegan.  Chanie Apfelbaum: Oh, wow. Laura Shaw Frank: My daughter and I are not – but my husband and my three sons are vegan. As I was thinking about interviewing you, I was thinking about how kosher cooking is always intertwined with the places that it's located in and the time in which it's occurring. Do you feel like your cooking has been influenced by the recent trends toward vegetarian and vegan and more plant based eating? Chanie Apfelbaum: I definitely, just as someone who grew up eating a lot of heavy Ashkenazi food. Being in the food world, seeing what's out there. Besides for the fact that it's trendy. I feel like after Shabbat, I want to break from meat and animal protein. I mean, we're eating fish, we're usually having three courses. We're having fish, we're having chicken soup or having some kind of meat or chicken. Sunday we're usually having leftovers because there's just so much food from Shabbat. So come Monday we do in my house–in my first cookbook, Millennial Kosher, which came out in 2018. I had a Meatless Meals chapter. And that was really new for any kosher cookbook. You don't find it, you find definitely very heavy meat chapters. But it was important to me because I instituted that in my house many years ago. And I have it in this book as well. And I got so much amazing feedback because there's a lot of people out there who don't eat meat. There's a lot of vegetarians. There's a lot of vegans. And they were so happy that I was bringing that to the kosher world, and of course wanted to bring it again. And also my kids love it. Like come Monday they know it's Meatless Monday in my house. God forbid I didn't have time to think of something and I bring chicken they're like, What, what's going on here? Ma, it's Meatless Monday. It's like a rule. So I include this in the book where I talk about the way I structure my week because it really helped me kind of take the guesswork out of what am I making for dinner. I have a loose framework, while still allowing me the possibility to be creative because I love you know, playing Chopped with my kids, with whatever's in my fridge or my pantry. I want the possibility to be creative but I still need a little bit of framework.  So Sunday's we'll have leftovers if there's no leftovers, we'll do a barbecue or sometimes a restaurant if we’re out for the day. But Monday's Meatless, Tuesdays is beef. Wednesdays is chicken, Thursdays is dairy. Shabbos is Friday night, it's always a little bit different. And then, Saturday night is eggs. And it gives me the base protein, I know what I'm working off of and then from that I can kind of play around. And I think that really helps people that are like so overwhelmed with the idea of what am I making for dinner? You wake up on a Tuesday morning, you know, it's meat day, okay, I got to take out some kind of meat from the freezer. I'll figure out what I'm doing for later. Maybe I'll make tacos. Maybe I'll make spaghetti Bolognese maybe, you know, maybe I'll make burgers, but you took the meat out, you know. But going back to your question. So you know, Mondays is meatless in my house and we're a big bean family. My kids love beans. One of their favorite dinners are my refried bean tacos that are my first book. I have these amazing smashed falafel burgers in this book. Like I said, we love beans, I do curries I do, Falafel I do. Once in a while I'll try and play around with tofu. My kids don't love it too much. Tempe is something - I have tempe shawarma in the book which is really amazing.  Let's not forget to mention plant based beef which I think totally revolutionized the kosher experience because when can we ever make you know, meat and dairy together because that's one of the basic rules within the kosher kitchen. You can't mix meat and dairy together in the same dish. My kids love when I make smash burgers for dinner. And I always said like, I don't love vegan dairy products if you just don't get that cheese pull, but like with the vegan meat products, with the new plant based impossible beef, it's really close to the real thing. It really is.  Laura Shaw Frank: We love impossible burgers in our house and I want to try that tempe shawarma. Chanie Apfelbaum: Oh, it's really good. Laura Shaw Frank: What recipe would you say was kind of the biggest surprise for you? I mean, it seems to me like you often work from traditional Jewish recipes, but seems like you also are constantly innovating and making up your own recipes. So is there a recipe that just kind of surprised yourself and couldn't believe how it turned out? Chanie Apfelbaum: My favorite recipe in the book is my Pad Chai. And it's kind of a Middle Eastern spin on Pad Thai, where I use harissa and silan and lime and tamarind in the sauce. It almost feels like pad thai with just that little hint of Middle Eastern flavor. Pad thai is always finished with crushed peanuts, and I put crushed bamba over the top. And it's just so fun and playful. And I also love fun names. So I love just the name of it, but it's really a reflection of, first of all my favorite flavors, like I love middle eastern food, I love Thai food, marrying them together. And it's colorful and beautiful and so flavorful. Everything I love about food, and was really inspired by the pad thai made in culinary school. And it was one of the dishes that really, really transformed my palate completely. So it's kind of an ode to that. Laura Shaw Frank: You're getting me very excited to go home and make dinner for the next few nights.  Chanie Apfelbaum: You see right there. Laura Shaw Frank: So your latest cookbook, Totally Kosher, is being published by Random House. And that's a really interesting thing for a kosher kind of a niche cookbook to be published by a very mainstream publisher. So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how it came about that you got, first of all, that you got Random House to publish your cookbook, which is amazing. Second of all, why you left the more Jewish the more orthodox publishing world. Chanie Apfelbaum: I’m with Clarkson Potter, one of the imprints of Penguin Random House, that's an imprint. They haven't written a kosher book in many, many, many years. Thank God, I've been in this industry for 12 years. And I already wrote a very successful book. So my name is really out there. People know me as being the kosher cook. So they did approach me to write the book, which was really an honor. I had a very good experience the first time around working with Artscroll. Artscroll is like the main Jewish distributor of and publisher of Jewish books. My book was beautiful, and their distribution is really unmatched, but it's really only in the Jewish world. they’ll get your book and every Judaica shop in the world, but not in Barnes and Nobles, and not in you know, in mainstream, indie booksellers.  I really wanted to reach a larger demographic of Jews. As a blogger, people have come to know me and my family. I wanted to put more lifestyle photos in and most Jewish publishers don't actually publish photos of women in their books, which is something that I definitely want to see change. And I put beautiful pictures of my family, me and my daughters lighting Shabbos candles which is something that like, the moment of my week that I look forward to and a special time for me that I really feel like I connect with my Jewishness. And you know, my book is dedicated and memory of my Bubbie and to my mother and to my daughters and for me, it's really about the Jewish family and Jewish pride–not just about food, but really about family and I wanted to be able to portray that through the photos in the book. So that was another of my reasons for moving mainstream. Laura Shaw Frank: I think it's just amazing. And I just think it's so wonderful that you are illustrating your cookbook, with pictures that are not just about Jewish pride, but also about the special pride of Jewish women and the special…you know, of course, not only women cook, you know, men cook too, I have to say, my husband cooks dinner a lot more than than I do. And kids cook and lots of different people find a lot of wonderful fulfillment in the kitchen. But, of course, we do have this very long tradition of women cooking for their families, even as we change it up today. And I just think it's beautiful that you actually intentionally use pictures of women, of your family, in your cookbook.  Chanie Apfelbaum: And my sons are there too. Laura Shaw Frank: Excellent. Let's make it a family experience.  Chanie Apfelbaum: Exactly, exactly. Laura Shaw Frank: Speaking about family experience, you’ve written about why it’s so important to you to encourage family meals with everyone sitting around the table together, whether it’s on Shabbat or holidays or even just a weekday dinner. Could you share with us why that’s so important to you? Chanie Apfelbaum: Well, I grew up in a very open home. My mom always had guests for shabbat or holidays. I grew up on the block of 770 Eastern Parkway, Chabad Lubavitch headquarters, and our house was just always open to guests. It’s something of value that was instilled in me from early on.  And I don’t know if you know this, but my brother Ari Halbersham was actually killed in a terrorist attack on the Brooklyn Bridge in 1994. That’s something that I feel like, I don’t think people realize, when you lose a family member in that way, it’s not like, OK, you just lost your brother. But it affects the whole family, really for generations. And I think that one of the things that I lost was having those experiences around the table. And especially so many memories with my brother at the table as well.  So for me, I find so much healing–first of all healing, but also just, I see the greatness and the power to bring families around the table. To create family memories. So many that I draw great comfort from, I want other people to be able to experience that. It’s important for me to do that, also as a way to remember him and celebrate what he lived for and what he died for. Laura Shaw Frank: Ok, that’s incredible. And it’s an incredible message to all of us to be in the moment and treasure those moments around the table.  So the last thing I want to ask you is, so you have this cookbook that's being published by a mainstream publisher. And we know that not a lot of Jews keep kosher. The percentages are not that high. Do you think your cookbook appeals beyond just a kosher audience?  Chanie Apfelbaum: Well, I'll tell you that I have a lot of–forget about non- kosher keeping. I have a lot of non-Jewish followers on Instagram that buy my book, because they just like my style of cooking. I know it's called Totally Kosher. And obviously, it's a celebration of kosher and celebration of our Jewish heritage, and our customs and traditions, but at the same time, it's just good food, it’s just good food, despite it being kosher, and really, I really want to break that stigma that there is about kosher food - that kosher food is brown, and it is brown. You know, like I can't take it away. Matzah ball soup is beige, and gefilte fish is beige, and potato kugel’s beige, and brisket’s brown. And you know, there's a reason for the stereotype.  Laura Shaw Frank: Cholent’s brown too. Chanie Apfelbaum: It is. And if you look through my book, one thing that will pop out at you is how colorful the food is, and how beautiful the food is. And like I said earlier, I came to food by means of artistry. They say people eat with their eyes first. And it has changed and I think in the mainstream world, they haven't quite realized how kosher has evolved. I mean, there's so many different restaurants, kosher restaurants now, that celebrate different global cuisines. There's a Peruvian Japanese restaurant in the city, there's a Georgian restaurant in Queens. It's not just your Bubbie's stuffed cabbage anymore. And I want, like I said, the stigma to change and make waves in the mainstream world to see kosher a little bit differently. Laura Shaw Frank: Well, I'm for one very excited to start making some recipes from Totally Kosher. And I just want to thank you, Chanie, so much for coming to join us on People of the Pod. I think that you are bringing such a fresh take. And such a warmth, such a deep sense of Jewish culture and peoplehood, and family, and love to your work. And it's really more than just about kosher cooking. It's really about something much bigger. And I just want to thank you for that. So thanks so much for joining us today and I know we're gonna have a lot of listeners going to buy your cookbook.  Chanie Apfelbaum: Thank you for having me.  

In a special breaking news edition, Lt. Col. (res.) Avital Leibovich, director of AJC Jerusalem, joins us to break down Israel’s Operation Shield and Arrow and the threat posed by the Iranian-backed terror group Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which has fired over 500 rockets towards Israel since Tuesday. Leibovich also provides an update on how Israelis are coping with the latest escalation and efforts being made towards a ceasefire.  *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  ___ Episode Lineup:  (0:40) Avital Leibovich ___ Show Notes: Take action: Urge Congress to Stand with Israel Against Terrorism Read: What to Know About the Gaza Strip, Terrorist Rocket Attacks, and More 5 Things You Need to Know About Israel’s Iron Dome Defense System and Those Who Voted Against It Listen: Israel at 75: 7 Things You Should Know About Israel: Listen to these seven episodes of AJC’s People of the Pod featuring leading Israeli and American scholars, experts, and influencers that will help you learn more about the complexities, triumphs, and challenges facing Israel today. AJC CEO Ted Deutch on the Importance of Jewish American Heritage Month: This May, AJC is proud to celebrate Jewish American Heritage Month and the countless contributions that Jewish Americans have made as patriotic citizens, creative artists, brilliant scientists, and star athletes. To kick things off, we’re joined by AJC CEO Ted Deutch to hear his reflections on his first several months at AJC, what he’s looking forward to at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, and how he’s marking Jewish American Heritage Month. Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org   If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Avital Leibovich Manya Brachear Pashman:  Welcome to a special breaking news edition of People of the Pod to bring our listeners up to date on what's going on in Israel. Joining me is Lieutenant Colonel Avital Leibovich, Director of AJC Jerusalem. Avital, welcome, and I hope you are safe. But how are you doing? Tell me. Avital Leibovich:   Thank you. It's an opportunity for me to be here with you today and to share from the ground our experiences here in Israel. This is already the third day of the operation. There's tension in the air, but I think that our resilience as Israelis is quite strong. And I'm sure we will overcome this situation as we have in the past. Manya Brachear Pashman: So what is going on there–who is firing the rockets that are now falling on Israel? Avital Leibovich:    So the operation is directed towards the Islamic Jihad in Gaza. Islamic Jihad in Gaza is the smaller of two terror groups in Gaza. It's backed and funded and directed by Iran. And its charter is pretty clear, I would say. Basically, the organization believes that Israel has no right to exist. And in order to make sure that we will not exist, Iran is funding its military capabilities. They have managed to build an arsenal of rockets, of mortars, of drones. They have managed to train soldiers, militants in order to conduct anti-Israeli operations.  And Israel decided to initiate an operation, following two events. The first event was a week ago, where over 100 rockets were fired by this organization, the Islamic Jihad, within 24 hours, towards Israel. And the second event actually took place on Pesach, on Passover, in which 34 rockets were fired from Lebanon within 10 minutes by factions of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Lebanon. So this was an opportunity to make sure that Israel is preventing further escalation and basically defending its people. Manya Brachear Pashman: So where's Hamas in all of this? Avital Leibovich:    So Hamas has in the past, decided to actually sit quietly and not intervene. And this is common. We've seen this in the operation last year, we've seen this in the operation two years ago. And you may want to ask what the reason for Hamas sitting back and the reason is that Hamas has a lot to lose. Currently, Israel declared that it's only looking to target Islamic Jihad targets, namely not Hamas targets. And Hamas understands that if it will join the celebration of Islamic Jihad, then the price Hamas will pay will be very, very high, for one.  There are 18,000 Palestinian workers entering Israel from Gaza on a daily basis. These kinds of workers bringing salaries back home, actually move some sort of an economic cycle inside the Gaza Strip, and the shopping power is stronger and stronger by these workers. If Hamas will join the operation, then obviously, Israel will close the border and will not allow these workers to enter. And additionally, I'll remind our listeners that Hamas is still renovating Gaza from previous operations. So it would be quite serious from their perspective, to stop the renovation and then create further damage. Because as you know, Hamas and Islamic Jihads' arsenal of weapons are very much inside densely populated areas. Manya Brachear Pashman: So what are we seeing in terms of – is the Iron Dome doing its job of protecting Israelis? Avital Leibovich:    So I would say thank God for the Iron Dome, I would say thank God for the very strong and strategic partnership Israel has with the US, which is very highly valued here. The Iron Dome is basically saving their lives with a whopping success rate of 90%, the Israeli people know that there's something in the sky that will be able to protect them. There are thousands of people that have spent the last three days in shelters, their spirit is quite broken. Because sitting in a shelter, whether you're a four year old child or a 30 year old mum, and hearing constantly sounds of explosions and jets flying in the air, this is not a normal kind of atmosphere.  Manya Brachear Pashman: By the time this airs, perhaps a ceasefire will be reached, wouldn't that be a blessing? Are you optimistic that that will happen? Avital Leibovich:   You know, living in the Middle East, you have to be optimistic in routine times, in emergency times. Talks of a ceasefire began yesterday. But we have to keep in mind that there is a lot of fake news, a lot of false publications. And I don't see an end to the current situation, the next couple of hours, maybe in another 24 to 48 hours. And I'm just getting a report that there was a direct hit of a building in Rehovot, which is a city maybe half an hour from here, half an hour from Tel Aviv. So we're not there quite yet. I do want to mention, in this context, Egypt's role. Media has put a focus on Saudi Arabia's role in the region. But we must not forget that Egypt is a strong partner. And this is the partner who actually mediates between Israel and the different terror groups in Gaza. They have an important role. Israel respects this role. And we should not forget this very, very significant actor in our region. Manya Brachear Pashman: Well Avital, thank you for that addendum and thank you for joining us. I really hope that you're able to stay safe and that we are talking about a ceasefire very soon. Avital Leibovich:   Thank you for the opportunity.