People of the Pod

In the aftermath of the slaughter of 11 Jews inside the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, the deadliest antisemitic attack in U.S. history, American Jewish Committee (AJC) drew up a plan to galvanize Jewish communities and their allies across the world in an expression of unity and defiance: #ShowUpForShabbat. The campaign, which reached hundreds of millions of people, urged those of all faiths to attend synagogue services during the Shabbat following the attack to show solidarity with the Jewish community. In this third episode of our Remembering Pittsburgh series, hear from some of those who showed up to that Shabbat five years ago on what the experience meant to them and how the events of that week altered their perspective on antisemitism in America. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Belle Yoeli, Anne Jolly, Rachel Ain, Sharif Street, Jennifer Mendelsohn Show Notes: Listen: Remembering Pittsburgh Part 1: Behind the Scenes at the Reimagined Tree of Life Remembering Pittsburgh Part 2: What the Family of Tree of Life Victim Joyce Fienberg Wants You to Know About Her Legacy Take Action: Urge Congress to Stand Against Rising Antisemitism Music credits: Shloime Balsam - Lo Lefached Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and review us on Apple Podcasts. Episode Transcript: Manya Brachear Pashman: This month, AJC set out to mark the five-year anniversary of the Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting at the Tree of Life with a series of episodes exploring this turning point for the American Jewish community. Our first installment aired October 5. Two days later, the Jewish people faced another unprecedented deadly antisemitic attack, this time in Israel. Synagogues stepped up security and families tamped down their fears to take their children to Hebrew school or attend Shabbat services. In the second episode of our series, we sat down with Howard and Marnie Fienberg, who paid tribute to their mother Joyce. In this third installment, we look back at how horror drew people to solidarity. May we see that same solidarity today. Belle Yoeli: We saw hundreds of thousands of people show up. And we saw pictures later, after the fact, and videos, and people making speeches, and just so much solidarity. This was captured on the news. I think it really stands out as one of the most amazing responses to antisemitism that we've seen in modern history. Manya Brachear Pashman: On October 27, 2018, Americans witnessed the deadliest antisemitic attack in this nation's history. Eleven worshipers inside the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh were murdered just for being Jewish. The senseless slaughter inside a house of worship devastated and shocked American senses because it was simply unAmerican. But the aftermath of the atrocity became an American moment when so many people showed up – showed up with hugs, showed up with flowers, showed up with prayers for their Jewish neighbors. The most visible expression of this came a week after the massacre with the unprecedented turnout of people of all faiths at synagogues across the nation as part of AJC's #ShowUpForShabbat campaign. Together, Americans sent a message that hate will not prevail. Belle Yoeli: Everyone wanted to do something, and the entire Jewish community mobilized to make this happen with the understanding that as AJC has always said that antisemitism is not just about the Jewish community. It starts with the Jewish community, but it's a threat to democracy, and the murder of Jews in their religious institution is such a breaking, a fracturing of everything that the United States stands for, everything that democratic society stands for. Manya Brachear Pashman: Today, Belle Yoeli is the chief advocacy officer for AJC. In 2018, she worked as the chief of staff for then AJC CEO David Harris. David had spent nearly 20 years counseling European leaders on the rise of antisemitism in their midst, calling their attention to violent crimes against Jews when conflict erupted between Israel and their Arab neighbors. Belle was on her way to a nephew's birthday party when she got the call on October 27 about what had happened in Pittsburgh. She remembers sobbing in the car on the phone with colleagues as they all grappled with the reality that whether they were regular shul-goers or had just happened to go to synagogue to celebrate a friend's bar mitzvah that day – it just as easily could've been them. For many, what they needed now was to go to shul and not be afraid, and to see others, not just their own community, but others of all faiths in the pews alongside them. What they needed most now was to know they were not alone. So they drew up a plan. Belle Yoeli: A couple members of our staff actually kind of simultaneously came up with a similar idea, which was that we need to, more than anything, rally non-Jews to come and support the Jewish community at this time, and what better time to do that than the following Shabbat. Manya Brachear Pashman: Dubbed #ShowUpForShabbat, the social media-based campaign called on both Jews and those of other faiths to flock to synagogues that coming Shabbat on the weekend of November 2 in support of the Pittsburgh Jewish community and all of American Jewry. The response across 80 countries was astounding. More than 250 million people spread the message on social media, including celebrities Andy Cohen, Itzhak Perlman, and Mayim Bialik, and politicians Paul Ryan, Kamala Harris, and Sadiq Kahn. And hundreds of synagogues across the country and around the world, from Tokyo to Santiago to London to San Francisco, welcomed people of all faiths into their sanctuaries. Those who walked through the doors included diplomats from dozens of countries, federal, state, and local elected officials, and Christian, Muslim, Hindu clergy. Synagogues across the country reported massive crowds rivaling or exceeding those seen at High Holy Day services. Belle Yoeli: There are some times, I think before Pittsburgh, and before Tree of Life and after, where the Jewish community doesn't always feel like we are seen, and that we need defense too. When it comes to antisemitism, because Jews are viewed as white or for other reasons, or when it comes to us attacks against Israel, we don't feel like our partners are necessarily always there for us, although many are. Seeing with such clarity how people were showing up for the Jewish community, we all really needed that. And honestly, society needed that and to see that. That we will not let this stand. I think it shook everyone to their core and not just the Jewish community. That's what struck a chord with people that could have been me, that could have been hatred towards African Americans, that could have been hatred towards the Muslim community. Every single community who has a piece of them, an identity that's so strong resonated with that. Manya Brachear Pashman: We connected with people who showed up that Shabbat five years ago, and asked them what the experience meant to them, whether the events of that week altered their perspective on antisemitism in America, or changed how they show support to their Jewish neighbors. Anne Jolly: An important part of what we proclaim is love God, love your neighbor, change the world. And so we believe that means we show up for each other. We can't love each other without being present with each other. So we have to be together. You have to show up. Manya Brachear Pashman: Episcopal Bishop of Ohio Anne Jolly was serving as the rector of St. Gregory Episcopal Church in Deerfield, Illinois in October 2018. A former hospital chaplain, she was sitting in her office when she heard the news break that Saturday morning. Her first call was to her friend and colleague Rabbi Karyn Kedar down the road at the Reform temple commonly known as Congregation BJBE. Rabbi Kedar had recently preached at St. Gregory and then-Pastor Jolly was scheduled to deliver the guest sermon at BJBE the following Friday night. Anne Jolly: I called her and we talked and we prayed. And I said to Karyn, I think probably you need to preach on the Shabbat following the shooting at your temple and she said, 'I want you to do it.' She said 'I think I think we need to hear your voice and that the congregation needs to hear you. Rabbi Kedar I think thought that to hear a voice of someone who is not Jewish saying aloud, We love you, we care for you. We believe we are all created in God's image together. And that means we need to show up for each other. It means we need to be present with each other, that to hear that from someone who was not part of their community might be more powerful, more impactful, and more important for the community here at that time. Manya Brachear Pashman: When Bishop Jolly arrived that following Friday she did not expect her sudden sense of fear when she encountered armed guards. Anne Jolly: I didn't realize I was afraid until I walked in the door. And I stopped and had to take a deep breath and realize that I was afraid because I was entering into a space of people who have long been afraid. And that I had never had to experience that before in that way. And I wasn't really afraid for my congregation the same way I was for my beloveds in the synagogue, that they had more of a reason to be afraid than I did. And that was all the more reason for me to be there, and to be present with them. Manya Brachear Pashman: Bishop Jolly credits that night at BJBE for the deep connection that formed with the congregation. In fact, she returned to BJBE many more times to celebrate Shabbat. Precisely a year later, the members of the Jewish congregation showed up at her door after a pumpkin patch at St. Gregory had been destroyed by vandals. Anne Jolly: There were a bunch of them that came to our patch and we were talking about it and they said, 'We just wanted to show you that we are supporting you. And they were worried that that vandalism had been an act of aggression against us. And I just thought it was kids. And that was a really clear distinction of how our worldviews are different. For them, a vandalism thing would, of course, of course, be something hateful against them. In this case, it was children, it was just teenagers being dumb. But it reinforced that understanding that for them, fear is always in the background because of the violence perpetrated to them – again and again and again. Rabbi Rachel Ain: It was not a wake-up call that hate existed and already the hate was being felt. And at the same time, the love with my neighbors was being felt. So I was able to hold on to both emotions. But really, as I look back at these five years. Pittsburgh to Poway to Colleyville to Jersey City. I mean, I can sort of think back to all of these moments. It's here. And we need to both be proudly Jewish, and strongly protected. Manya Brachear Pashman: For Rabbi Rachel Ain, the spiritual leader of Sutton Place Synagogue, a conservative synagogue in New York City, the massacre at Tree of Life was not her first encounter with antisemitism. She knew it was simmering. A year earlier, almost to the day, vandals had spray painted swastikas across the entrance of her synagogue on the East Side of Manhattan. She knew how powerful it had been to have members of the wider community come support the congregation after that incident. Whether to invite members of the community to #ShowUpForShabbat was never a question in her mind. Rabbi Rachel Ain: It's not only that I felt supported by my neighbors, especially those that weren't Jewish. But more than anything, it was that so many of our congregation members who were not, let's say Shabbat regulars, felt the importance and the value of showing up for Shabbat and they knew that they had an address to come to both physically and spiritually to place their pain and their needs. Manya Brachear Pashman: That same weekend marked the bar mitzvah celebration of a young man in the congregation. Rabbi Ain wrestled with how to balance the sadness and shock of the prior weekend with the joy and celebration of his milestone. And a few years later, that same young man and his brother stepped up to lead the synagogue's Holocaust Remembrance event, in which teens interviewed the children of Holocaust survivors and shared the stories that have been passed down to them. She wonders if that moving show of solidarity when he was 13 and the formational years that followed had an impact. Rabbi Rachel Ain: What I really keep thinking about is how some of our teenagers who at that point, were in sixth grade or seventh grade. And now here they are seniors in high school and freshmen in college, how their teen experience has been shaped by showing up for Shabbat and showing up for shul when bad things have happened. So what I've also tried to do is, how do we ensure that our young people's experiences aren't only about the challenges of being Jewish, but the joys of being Jewish? Sharif Street: I just remember the massive amount of people that showed up and the diversity of the folks. I mean, I don't think I'd seen that many people show up for an evening Shabbat at Rodef Shalom in, well, maybe ever." Manya Brachear Pashman: Pennsylvania State Sen. Sharif Street had been in Pittsburgh the day before the shooting at the Tree of Life building. When he heard the news that Saturday morning, he scrambled to find out if his friends and colleagues were OK. He was not oblivious to hatred and its potential to lead to violence. His father had been active in the civil rights movement and Sen. Street had sponsored legislation to curb hate crimes, but he had hoped to get ahead of the trend. This seemed unfathomable. Sharif Street: I didn't really contemplate that in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, it was within the realm of reasonable possibility that someone was gonna walk into a synagogue, and commit such a vicious, horrible act of hate. I didn't see that." I thought we had moved beyond that stage of antisemitism and bigotry. And I was reminded of what my friends, older folks, and black and Jewish community always said, which is, we have to remain constantly vigilant. Because these things have a way of coming back. It took on a new air, a new level of seriousness to me. Because this is not the idea that people could be killed because of antisemitism in America. It's not just something of a bygone era. But I realized we were living in that era today. Manya Brachear Pashman: Sen. Street accompanied a friend to Temple Rodef Sholom in Philadelphia a week later and he has a few indelible memories from that night. Sharif Street: People from every walk of life. Some people who were obviously maybe were not Jewish, who just wanted to express their support and their solidarity. And the look on the faces of people who are members, who were just, who felt so troubled, so shaken. And to see all the support from people, I think, made people feel like even in this world that seems so cruel in that moment that there were many people who are good, who stood with them. And I think a lot of times, folks who are doing these kinds of acts of hate and terror want to make folks, in this case Jewish people, feel isolated and alone. And I think that the service allow people to recognize you're not alone. And that people from all walks of life stand with you and stand against these horrible acts of hate. I think those of us who were, I would say the under-50 crowd and the younger you got, the more there was a level of shock, found it more disturbing because I guess we were further removed from an era when things like this when vicious acts of violence against people for antisemitism, racism and other forms of bigotry were more commonplace. People were wanting to make sure that this is not the beginning of a new chapter. Hopefully in our lifetimes we'll remember this as a disturbing outlier, not the beginning of an era. Jennifer Mendelsohn: What really struck me about it was how simple it was, all we asked people to do was quite literally show up. You didn't have to wave a protest flag. You didn't have to donate money somewhere. You didn't have to go on a march. It was literally just saying, 'Come be with us this evening. We're hurting. And to have that answered so resoundingly was incredibly inspiring. Manya Brachear Pashman: Jennifer Mendelsohn helped create the DNA reunion project at the Center for Jewish History, which uses the power of genetic genealogy to reconnect Holocaust survivors and their children to relatives from whom they were separated. While she did not regularly attend Shabbat services, she and her husband thought it was important to show up at Fulton Street Synagogue in Baltimore on November 2, 2018. Jennifer Mendelsohn: I walked in, and there's just no way to express what it was like. There were probably 300 people there. And you know, we normally do a potluck dinner. And I looked and there was, you know, there was no room to put down all the food, there was no prayer books, there were people, you know, just packed in. And I remember seeing the faces of neighbors of ours, non Jewish neighbors, and I immediately just got so overcome, and they just sort of smiled at me. And just to know that they had taken the time on a Friday night just to say, we care, and we're here with you. It was unbelievably powerful. Manya Brachear Pashman: Clergy and congregants from across different religious traditions helped light memorial candles for the 11 victims in Pittsburgh and the congregation sang "We Shall Overcome." Jennifer Mendelsohn: I feel like every time I go back, I remember how nice it feels to be at synagogue. You always think like, Oh, it's so much easier to just, you know, sit on your couch with your fuzzy slippers. But it's, you know, it's always nice to be there. And all of the rituals are so familiar, you know, lighting candles, and, you know, welcoming the Sabbath bride and all of that, and the songs and it just reminded me that, you know, I'm not a particularly religious person in terms of practice or ritual. But it reminded me that, you know, that's where I come from, those are my people. And it was just very comforting to be in that environment at a time of such tragedy to just be around familiar sounds and smells and sights and all of that." Manya Brachear Pashman: For Mendelsohn, 2018 had already been fraught and eye-opening, as she had become the target of online antisemitism because of a political project on Twitter. As someone who deals with the Holocaust on a daily basis, her shock surprised her. Jennifer Mendelsohn: This event sort of crystallized the sense that, you know, antisemitism was still around and perhaps, you know, coming back with a new fearsome edge… It was very hard to fathom. You know you you spend this much time thinking about the Holocaust and dealing with families shattered by genocide that was, you know, spurred by just hatred. And you think, 'Well, surely this will never happen again, because everyone understands, and clearly people don't. So it was a very sobering experience to feel threatened again, as an American Jew. Manya Brachear Pashman: But #ShowUpForShabbat also crystallized that regardless of ideology, color or creed, most of America stood beside the Jewish community in this moment. Jennifer Mendelsohn: The crowd inside that synagogue was exactly the America that my ancestors came to the U.S. to be a part of, you know, they escaped political discrimination in Eastern Europe, and that's really for me what it was all about and to reinforce that that America exists that helping, kind, inclusive America, in the face of this horrific act of violence and hatred was just really the balm that my soul needed at that moment.

Join us in a tribute to the memory of Joyce Fienberg, one of the 11 victims of the 2018 shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh. In this touching second installment of our series on the events of 10/27 , we sit down with Joyce's son, Howard Fienberg, and his wife, Marnie, as they share their journey of mourning and resilience. Joyce was not only a dedicated member of the Tree of Life synagogue but also a retired university researcher, a devoted mother, and grandmother. Howard and Marnie open up about their extended period of mourning due to trial delays, offering a glimpse into the emotional toll of such a traumatic event. Marnie details how she turned her grief into 2 for Seder, an initiative to honor Joyce and push back against the hate that creates antisemitism. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Howard Fienberg, Marnie Fienberg Show Notes: Listen: Remembering Pittsburgh Part 1: Behind the Scenes at the Reimagined Tree of Life Take Action: Urge Congress to Stand Against Rising Antisemitism Music credits: Tree of Life by Nefesh Mountain Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and review us on Apple Podcasts. Episode Transcript: Manya Brachear Pashman: After her husband and mother died in 2016, Joyce Fienberg started each day at Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, to recite Kaddish, the mourner's prayer. Even when she was no longer officially considered a mourner as Jewish tradition prescribes, 11 months, she continued to attend services each morning at the synagogue. That's why Howard Feinberg knew his mother Joyce was at Tree of Life when he heard there had been a shooting there on the morning of October 27, 2018. It would be more than 12 hours before he learned she was among the 11 killed that day. Howard and his wife Marnie are with us now from their home in Northern Virginia to talk about their prolonged mourning period and how they have held onto and channeled that grief. Howard, Marnie, thank you so much for joining us. Howard Fienberg: Thanks for having us. Manya Brachear Pashman: Howard, you followed your mother's example and recited kaddish for 11 months. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? That experience of saying Kaddish and mourning for your mother, and also can you share with our listeners why it felt like the mourning period was extended? Howard Fienberg: I felt a huge amount of support everywhere I went, in order to be able to say Kaddish every day. Which for someone who was not the most observant of Jews, it was a big lift to be able to do that every day. In fact, even when traveling in disparate places, that I could always find, somehow, be able to pull together 10 people to be able to say Kaddish was a big deal. And I wanted to make sure that no one would struggle in similar circumstances as well. Obviously, initially, in Pittsburgh putting together 10 people was not a particularly big lift. Because the community support in that first week of Shiva was phenomenal. But it's not an easy thing in many congregations, and I think we are fortunate in mine that we always seem to pull it out every day. But I want to make sure that it happens. So in practice wise, that's one of the biggest things, my involvement with the synagogue, and prayer. The broader extension of the mourning period, in a way, was a result of the constant delay of the trial for the monster that committed the massacre. And that was a result of both just the general usual procedural delays that you would expect, combined with COVID excuses that dragged things out during the trial. And once a new judge took over responsibility for this case, things suddenly snapped into gear and it moved forward. And we're particularly grateful for the judge in this case, just for his very no-nonsense approach moving forward. Manya Brachear Pashman: Can you talk about whether the guilty verdict once it did take place, and a verdict was delivered, how that verdict changed anything for you and your family? Howard Fienberg: It was a matter of relief, to a great extent. I sat through almost the entirety of the trial, heard and saw all of the evidence. A lot more than I expected to and ever wanted to, but I felt duty to do so. From an outside perspective, looking at it all, you would say this is a slam dunk case, lined up for all the federal hate crimes that were involved. And at the same time, I was in doubt until the jury came back and said, all said guilty. It's just the nature of things. I was on pins and needles. Massive relief afterwards and the same thing with the final verdict and sentencing. Massive relief for us and our families. And that did allow…nothing's ever closed. You don't finish feeling the loss of somebody, especially when they're taken in, you know, horribly violent terrorist circumstances. But you move from segment to segment. So the same as we do in the year of mourning, you're moving from shiva, which is one kind of thing, to the 30 days, and then to the end of the mourning period. And this was moving to yet another period. And what exactly this is and how long it will be, I don't know. But we're figuring that out as we go. I certainly feel a lot more relaxed. Marnie Fienberg: Feels a little lighter. Howard Fienberg: Yes, definitely lighter. Manya Brachear Pashman: That's good to hear. That's good to hear. I am curious, you said you felt a duty to listen to those details, even though you didn't want to. Can you explain why you felt that sense of obligation? Howard Fienberg: Part of it is, somebody in our family needed to. And it wasn't something that I wanted everybody to sit and hear and see. And I specifically told friends and family as much as I could, to stay far away and said, as much as you want to know, I'll let you know. But otherwise, it's horrific. And it wasn't anything that I would wish for anybody to see and hear. But at the same time, it's the reality of how my mom died. And what the circumstances were, what was going on with the antisemitic conspiracy theories that drove the monster that killed her. And what did he have in mind, and what was his intention, what did he plan, what did he do? These were important things. And the bigger picture, which I didn't even know going in, was the extent to which the police in Pittsburgh were so heroic. And while they were not able to save my mom, they saved other people, including friends of ours, and people who are now friends, who would not be alive if those cops had not tried to charge at the front door trying to charge the building and getting shot. And then the SWAT teams going into the building, and in a couple cases getting almost murdered themselves, trying to rescue the people that were inside. And they did rescue some people. And those people would most likely be dead if the SWAT had not rushed in. Equipment wise, they were not ready ordinarily for this sort of situation. But they went in anyways because they knew they needed to, and they didn't hesitate. And that's the kind of thing that you can only understand, having gone to the trial and learned what went on. Manya Brachear Pashman: Marnie, I want to turn to you. You quit your job as a federal contractor and started a nonprofit initiative called 2 For Seder. What prompted this sudden shift in your career? Marnie Fienberg: Well, I think that I was so upset about what happened with my mother-in-law, I did take a leave of absence initially. And I wanted to volunteer. Being a Jewish woman, and having all this anger and grief and all the support that we had received from people, literally all over the world. I just couldn't sit back and do nothing. So I wanted to do something that was really in honor of Joyce, but also something that would help every single Jewish individual if they so chose to be able to take some small tikun-olam-style action, and push back against the hate that creates antisemitism. And I think 2 For Seder really accomplished that, especially that first year. And we were really on track to grow quite enormously, except for COVID. COVID stopped us in our tracks, because it is about inviting 2 people into your home, who have never been to a Seder before and really educating them and immersing them in that Jewish joy and intimacy that you create every year at Passover. Manya Brachear Pashman: So I'm really curious about the seder connection. Was Joyce known for putting together really elaborate Seders? Was she just always at the Seder table? Why Seders? Marnie Fienberg: So this is a two part sort of explanation. So one is the sort of graduation to being allowed to hold the Seder. So my mother-in-law, really for 15 years we actually had done where we started at her house, and I helped her and I learned as we went and then we flipped it. And we came to our house and she would help me and make sure that I was doing things the right way and guiding me the right way. And there's, I mean, there's so much to do, putting on a Seder and trying to of course fit, you know, 30-35 people into a house that really should only have about 20 people in it is, of course, part of the tradition. And she never blinked an eye, it was never too much. It was really mostly about making everyone at the table, regardless of their background–she always had students over, she always had people who had no place to go–every single person needed to feel like they were home. So if you had some sort of dietary restrictions, or any sort of an allergy or anything, my mother-in-law would bend over backwards, she bend herself into pretzels to make you feel 100% comfortable. And every single person who ever graced her table felt like they had never been more comfortable before. They felt like they were at their mother's house. And they commented on that many times. It was a wonderful thing. And I have to tell you, it's very hard to live up to. She was one of a kind. Howard Fienberg: If I might add in, part of this comes from looking at photo evidence. I've been going through all of the family photos, last five years, trying to digitize and you can see the progression. So early on, there are pictures of Passover seders that clearly they've invited friends and other professors at the universities, students that were Jewish, they'd invite to Passover on a regular basis. And I think there's a turn somewhere in the early 80s, my brother and I would start inviting our non-Jewish friends to the Passover Seder. And probably around about the late 80s was when it became not just bringing in Jews and my brother's friends and my friends who had never been to a Seder, it was their friends and fellow faculty, visiting graduate students from far-flung countries who knew absolutely nothing about Judaism. Certainly nothing about Passover. It was a way for them to have a comfortable introduction to what we're all about. And in all the context that my mother wanted to provide of it being a welcoming taste of being at home. Manya Brachear Pashman: We talked about how the Jewish tradition provides the process of formula, you know, the shiva and the 30 day mourning period. But this, the length of time that families have been mourning has been extended, delayed, slowed down. And I'm curious if on top of the Jewish traditions that guide people through the mourning process, if the Jewish community helped fill in some of what was missing, helped comfort you in certain ways? Marnie Fienberg: We live in two Jewish communities right now. We live in Northern Virginia, and we have our community here. And then we live in Pittsburgh, in a sense, and we have the community there. And we have been back and forth many times. The community in Pittsburgh, regardless if you were a family member, if you were a member of one of the three synagogues, or if you were a member of the greater community. There were so many ways that there were supports. And even from here we were always invited to participate in them. And some of them were done virtually actually when COVID hit which actually was very helpful for us. I don't know if the larger Jewish community is aware, but the FBI actually has a whole series of people, an entire division that's just there to support families and the communities that are affected from mass shootings, which also includes a grant to stand up an actual group that that is going to help the community at large. And that's the 10.27 Center for Healing in the Pittsburgh case, and that group is still standing and still running, still helping everyone. So there's the Jewish side, where we all still pray together, where we get together for our commemoration once a year, the families always get together in Pittsburgh. And then here in Northern Virginia, there have been a variety of commemorations, but mostly our own local community at our synagogue is extremely supportive. They're, of course, another family to us. And this has only really brought us all closer, which has been wonderful. Howard Fienberg: We've had a lot of different kinds of support structures, I wouldn't identify anything as where there was a failing, other than the broader problem that people thought it was over. The presumption on the part of everyone, when they found out that there was a trial for the monster that killed my mom, was: wasn't that done already? Manya Brachear Pashman: I want to ask you both this question, what has given you hope in the last five years? Howard Fienberg: I haven't had the time and strength to go through all of the letters and cards that we received in the month or two after mom was killed. But some of the ones that really impacted me the most, outside of people that we knew, or that knew my parents, I mean, I think we have a whole box of correspondence and cards from people who never met my mother or us. And a lot of those were from non-Jews, who were deeply impacted by this, and were moved. I mean, it's one thing that we had large groups of Jews that came to our Shiva, for example, that wanted to be there to support and during the Shiva period. There were groups of students that came from universities outside of Pittsburgh, like Ohio, and from Massachusetts, they wanted to come and be a part of it, and they weren't Jewish. They just, they felt a need to support. And that's the kind of thing that gives me great hope. Part of why we look at projects like 2 For Seder as so important, that it's not just that we're Jewish, and we're other. So I see a great load of hope there. But at the same time, the fact that, you know, trailing back to the trial, the fact that the Justice Department was willing to pursue the trial, and not just take a plea bargain, but actually present evidence and pursue a case involving such rampant antisemitism, and lay out the facts and prosecute them. That gives me great hope as well. It's not something that is an easy thing. The most reasonable response on their part probably would have been to, no matter what we wanted, would have been to pursue a plea bargain and make it all go away. Because it's expensive, and it doesn't make anybody feel good. Why would you do it? Manya Brachear Pashman: So I have to ask, if the trial had happened a century ago, do you think the jury would have reached a guilty verdict? Do you think the prosecution would have pursued the hate crime charges as they did? Marnie Fienberg: So there would never have been any hate crime charges. Hate crimes did not enter the American laws until 1964, which is when the Civil Rights Act was enacted. This is why I think that we always need to be so thankful for Martin Luther King Jr. and to be proud that we were part of that. So a century ago, would this have even been considered an anti-Jewish crime, an antisemitic crime? No. I think that you can look at Dreyfuss' case and you can say very clearly, this country, this part of the world was not ready for something like that. And they would have looked the other way. Would they have convicted as just a general murder? I don't know, there's a lot of those murders that just disappeared 100 years ago. But would it have been because it was antisemitism? Absolutely not. I would be very, very interested to learn of some other way that that would have happened. But we're very grateful that the same laws under the 1964 Civil Rights Act, that is what this was all held under. Howard Fienberg: And the other angle is that the monster that killed everybody, he killed 11 people, he was not an upstanding part of the community, he did not have a whole segment of the community cheering him on, helping him, encouraging him, protecting him. That's not the way it worked. And the reactions and the killing of my mom was part of the demonstration of that, that people were horrified and they were supportive of us. And, you know, the Justice Department pursuing the case to the fullest extent of the law, as they should, would that have happened 100 years ago? No, but again, not just because of the lack of statute, but you know, our place in society was not what it is today. And society was not the same. Manya Brachear Pashman: I know we've sprinkled details about your mother throughout this conversation, but is there anything in particular in there anything in particular that you want listeners to know about Joyce? Howard Fienberg: She twisted herself into knots and did whatever she could to help others, that starts with the rest of the family, and the amount of time and energy that she put toward helping us and helping my brother and sister in law and all of her grandkids, which were a huge focus of her life. The fact that she was able to also shoehorn in a lot of volunteer time at multiple different projects in Pittsburgh, as well as being the connector of our family and multiple sets of families, both email and letters and phone calls on a regular basis. It's an amazing thing that she was able to do that on a daily basis and still sleep and function. Not to mention, make sure that she was at minyan at Tree of Life early every morning. It was an amazing balancing act, y'know, it's a hard thing to pull off. Manya Brachear Pashman: And she picked up someone each day for minyan as well, right? Howard Fienberg: Yes, so unfortunately, he passed away. Late, late last year. Manya Brachear Pashman: May his memory be for a blessing. You know, I should ask, what does that mean to you, when this phrase, May her memory be for a blessing. What does that mean to you when someone says that about your mother? Howard Fienberg: I generally have an appreciation. Because, not just of what she meant to me, but the recognition from other people of the loss. And for some of them, they understand what that loss means. For others, they don't really, but they're trying to support. I do take comfort in that. I'm not certain that I did, certainly in the first week, I was too shell shocked to be able to appreciate all the people that were saying it to me. But, you know, over time, it makes a big difference. And I appreciate being able to do that for others, even complete strangers. If I'm supporting a minyan at someone's shiva, I like to be able to do that. Marnie Fienberg: Joyce was such a gentle, loving and caring person and to have her loss be through such an act of hate is where I think we all struggle. And I think whenever anyone talks to Howard or myself or any of the families about their losses, that they can feel that, that they can feel the shock that these people who just wanted to make the world a little bit better, a little bit of a better place, that they would be taken in such an act of hate, for no reason. I think that being able to say May their memory be a blessing really emphasizes the loss that we feel and the hope that we can fill in this space. Howard Fienberg: And I will say it's very awkward to talk to somebody who's in mourning. Just the nature of it. The fact that we have what almost a rote saying that carries so much weight is a huge benefit. And I deploy it regularly with non-Jews. They're partially taken aback, and they're very touched, because they're used to getting the awkward, Oh, I'm so sorry for your loss, which doesn't make anybody feel particularly good. We can argue about the way Judaism approaches all sorts of things. I happen to think the Jewish way of death, you know, as depressing as it may be to think about, is very practical in a lot of ways. And it's designed to be helpful. Manya Brachear Pashman: Has the rest of your family embraced that? Have they turned to the Jewish faith to cope with this, to try to make sense of it? Howard Fienberg: My brother was already what is called traditional in France, traditional Judaism, he embraced that much more fully, and is much more on the Orthodox range than he was before. And that was a huge part for him as well in coping, and coming to grips with our new life, after my mom died. And that is a piece of it for all of the family in different ways. One of the positive things along these lines, my brother dedicated a Torah in memory of my parents. And by weird twist of fate, or God's hand, in choosing a date to dedicate that Torah in Pittsburgh, the date happened to land a couple of days before the final sentencing in the Tree of Life trial. So we had just a few days before, this whole ceremony and huge celebration that my brother orchestrated, to not only involve the local community and a huge celebration and things that I've heard about, but never seen. People marching in a parade down the street, not far from Tree of Life, to introduce the new Torah to its new synagogue, but also in the final writing of the letters, finishing off the Torah, to be able to include some of the law enforcement officers that were injured in trying to rescue people at Tree of Life, as well as all of the families of the victims and the survivors. That everyone was able to participate from our family and our extended family. It was an amazing sight to behold and the simple fact that it landed right before the sentencing was kind of amazing, because there's this amazing positive outgrowth that you might not have expected. And the fact that it perfectly coincided with the darkness of the trial. It's an amazing thing. Marnie Fienberg: He had been planning this for three years. When Howard says that it was an amazing coincidence to bring them both together, to bring the one of the most Jewish things you could possibly do, dedicating a new Torah, creating and dedicating the Torah, right before the sentencing. There was never a plan for that. It just, it just happened. And it was very healing to the community. But it was also, I mean, the message of the shooter was to stop Judaism, to make us so afraid that we would never go back into the shuls, that we would never go back and be Jewish. And not only in the days right afterwards, where people flocked to go to shul. But this was just one more incredibly powerful expression, that each of the families has done so many different things, to focus on Judaism, focus on making the world a better place in memory of their loved ones. But this is just one more extraordinarily powerful example about how just being Jewish, just doing what we do best, it keeps us going. Manya Brachear Pashman: Marnie, Howard, thank you so much for joining us and sharing part of your journey with our listeners, it's really a valuable conversation to have. Marnie Fienberg: Thank you for having us. We appreciate it. Nefesh Mountain, from the song Tree of Life [singing]: O sweet friends, come and dry your eyes And hold each other by this Tree of Life I'm angry and tired of this great divide But I sing, nonetheless, with love on our side Manya Brachear Pashman: This episode is brought to you by AJC. Our producer is Atara Lakritz. Our sound engineer is TK Broderick. You can follow People of the Pod on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. You can reach us at peopleofthepod@ajc.org. If you appreciated this episode, please share it with friends and family and write a review on Apple Podcasts.

At 6:30 a.m on October 7, 2023, Renana Gomeh's life changed forever when Iran-backed Hamas terrorists stormed her home in Kibbutz Nir Oz and took her two sons, Yagil and Or Yaakov, ages 12 and 16, hostage. She has not heard from them since, knows nothing about the conditions they're held in, or whether they're still alive. Listen to Renana's painful account, how she is coping, and her mission to bring them home. American Jewish Committee (AJC) and more than 110 Jewish organizations have urged the United Nations and all governments to secure the immediate and unconditional release of the hostages. Update: This conversation was recorded on October 19. On November 27, Yagil and Or Yaakov were released as part of a temporary pause in fighting. Take action to bring their father, Yair Yaakov, and all remaining hostages home now. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Show Notes: Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War: What Biden's Wartime Visit to Israel Signals to Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah Mai Gutman Was Supposed to Be at the Music Festival: IDF Lone Soldier Recounts Harrowing Week Responding to Hamas Terror: IsraAID CEO on How You Can Help Israelis Right Now Learn: What is Known About Israeli Hostages Taken by Hamas AJC.org/AttackonIsrael Donate: AJC.org/SupportIsrael Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. ___ Transcript of Interview with Renana Gomeh: Manya Brachear Pashman: Over 200 hostages are being held by the Iran backed terror group Hamas after its terrorist attack against Israel and the massacre of over 1400 Israelis on October 7. American Jewish Committee and more than 110 Jewish organizations from more than 40 countries have urged the United Nations and all governments to secure the immediate and unconditional release of the hostages. The condition of many of the hostages remains unknown, yet we know some are in dire need of urgent medical care. With me to discuss her efforts to bring back her 12 year old and 16 year old sons is Renana Gomeh. Renana, thank you for joining us. Renana Gomeh: Thank you so much for having me. Manya Brachear Pashman: Now, your two sons were kidnapped from Kibbutz Nir Oz by Hamas terrorists on October 7. You were on the phone with your sons, as Hamas terrorists were breaking into your home. I cannot imagine what you've been going through over the past 2 weeks. Could you please tell listeners what happened that morning at 6:30am? Renana Gomeh: Yes, I was on another kibbutz that Saturday morning, with my spouse. I have a partner living on another kibbutz in another community near the Gaza border, which is 15 minutes drive away. And I'm divorced, and my ex-husband lives 400 meters away from me. He's also a member of my kibbutz, of my community. And the boys just usually sleep at my place. You know, this is how they prefer it. And since they're not very young children anymore, we let them choose. So they were alone at home. And he was at his place with his girlfriend, with his partner, who I love to bits. And about 6:30 in the morning, we all woke up to the red alert, which is unfortunately something which became a routine and we're used to. Since I was also on our kibbutz on the Gaza border, all communities at the Gaza border had red alerts and rockets flying over, hundreds of rockets flying over on a completely surprise attack. We just didn't see it coming whatsoever. I called my boys as I was running to the safe room at the place I was in to make sure that they're in the safe room at my place. And as the safe room is the eldest son's bedroom, he was there but he made sure that his little brother was also there. So they were in the safe room. And every couple of minutes I spoke to them to see that they were okay. At a certain point they said they're starting hearing gunshots outside the house and I could hear gunshots outside the house I was in. Again, it was a completely well-planned and well-executed attack on all communities at the same time. So no one could go outside. And I told them it was probably the army defending them. You know, they're keeping us safe. 30 minutes later or so I can't remember. I've lost track of time to be honest, of that morning. We started getting text messages from other members of the community saying terrorists are walking outside freely, breaking into houses, trying to get people out. I was begging neighbors and people from the community to go and see, to go and see them, go and be with them. You know, try and help them. But no one could go outside. And there were probably over 100 terrorists walking around, getting into houses. So there was not a chance that anyone could help. At a certain point I asked my elder brother, who's also a member of the community, to call my eldest [son] and tell him how to lock the door. The doors don't lock in a safe room because the safe rooms were planned against missiles and rocket attacks and against earthquakes. So they actually want you to have the door been able to open from the outside, so they can take you out. So they don't lock. But you know, there's certain technical ways to try and keep them locked. So I asked him to call my eldest and tell him how to do it. And then I later found out that he held the door like hell. And he fought for that door. But it didn't make it. And about an hour later, about two hours after the attack started, they called me and said, they hear someone breaking in. Breaking the door, breaking in, walking in the house. And a couple of minutes later, I could hear Arabic speaking outside. The door opens. And my youngest said, Please don't take me, I'm too young. He was always good at manipulation. This time it didn't work. And they took them. That was the last I've heard from them. It's almost two weeks now. And I've nothing, I've heard nothing. I know nothing of their whereabouts. I know nothing about the conditions they're held in, whether they eat, whether they sleep, and whether they're still alive. Manya Brachear Pashman: I'm so sorry to make you relive that. But I also know that it's important that you share your story with the wider world. Renana Gomeh It is, it is. I know. This is all I can do at the moment, you know. And so it means a lot to me that you're actually giving me the platform. Because what I need your audience to do is to enlist to the effort to get them released now. To get my boys home alive now. They shouldn't be there. They take children hostage, 80 people out of our small community, which only is about 400 people. 80 people were taken hostage from the age of six months to the age of 86. People who need medicine, people who need medical care. It's just plain children that need a mother. I later found out that my ex-husband and his girlfriend were also taken hostage from their house. My hope is that they've met and they're together. As 80 people were taken my hope is that someone that they know is with them, to support them and to help them. That's the story you know. As a mother to other mothers, just trying to imagine it was your child being kept there. Just for one hour, let alone 13 days. My heart goes out to every mother even in the Gaza Strip. You sometimes get in the news in Israel, you sometimes get news like a 14 year old terrorist was killed tonight at a terror attack and I always my heart goes out to them and I say you know he's 14, he's someone's child. But what kind of a mother raises such monsters? Manya Brachear Pashman: Of course, listeners who are hearing this can go to AJC.org/BringThemHome to send a letter to the United Nations, send a letter to Congress to demand swift action to release the hostages. I know that you are pushing for swift action to release your sons and the other hostages. Who have you met with, who have you talked to about bringing your sons home and what can be done? Renana Gomeh: Well I've met anyone who was willing to meet me. I was mainly trying to get the media, international media to hear my voice and to get people around the world to hear us. I think the international community has a lot of tools and there's many ways you can help by just by putting pressure, as you just suggested, by putting the right pressure in the right places, in order to release them. Obviously I want all of them to be released, there's over 200 people kept in the Gaza Strip, as far as we know, I think there's more. But, you know, it's not for me to say. What we need you to do is to approach your governments. And ask them to release those civilians that are held. We don't even know, again, in what conditions and especially released those 40 or so children. Children under the age of 18, from babies to teenagers. They're not part of this game. I'm sorry. They are not bargain chips in the war game. Get them free now without any conditions whatsoever. I can't see how anyone can think otherwise. It's just plain and simple. Manya Brachear Pashman: Renana, are you getting any explanations or theories from diplomats, people that you're speaking with, on why they're holding your sons and other children like this? Renana Gomeh: To be honest, until two weeks ago, I saw us as neighbors. And I thought there was mutuality between us, you know, that we could have a future together. Those two people have a mutual economy, have mutual relations, even have mutual cultures. But I don't think we do. I can't even try and get into these terrorists' heads and the way they think, because what they did is not just taking soldiers hostages in order to bargain them, to trade them, for prisoners. What they did was to rape and decapitate and murder, just for the sake of fun. They came in, had cameras, to have this horror filmed, and put on Facebook and on TikTok. So I can't even begin to try and understand but I reckon they probably want to bargain them for the prisoners, which as far as I'm concerned…I don't care. I think the actions they took cannot be justified in normal rules of war. I can't, I can't explain. It's not for bargaining. It's for fun. Manya Brachear Pashman: Are you being told there are limits to what diplomats can do or is anyone telling you their hands are tied, or are you getting unequivocal unbridled assurance that everything is being done? Renana Gomeh: I'm not really told anything at the moment, but I'm not an expert. I understand that not everything can be told. If there are efforts being done, which I hope there are, they can't share it with 200 families. My hopes are that anyone with the right mind understands that this situation can not go on. And the children cannot stay held by terrorists for not even one hour, let alone a day or a month. And that has to be over, no matter what. I don't care if the war still goes on after. I don't believe there's any other way to get them released, but diplomatic pressure. I think this is the way to do it. But I'm not sure there's anyone to negotiate with. So you know, the other side is so different to us. And their morales are so different from ours, apparently. Manya Brachear Pashman: Are you traveling places to meet with government officials, and do those government officials include Israel, America, beyond that? Renana Gomeh: I'm willing to do anything to get my kids back home. And to get everyone's kids back home. I have another daughter, my eldest, who's 21, who was also in Nir Oz at that horrible, horror day. And who's traumatized. Thank God, her boyfriend was around and held the door. And luckily, they got out alive but very, very deeply scarred. And I have to take that into consideration while making decisions about traveling far away. But I'm doing my best by Zoom. I'm trying to get my voice heard in any way I can, under those conditions. And I still have her to think of, she's all I have at the moment. So she deserves her mother to be around. Even [if] she's willing for me to do anything to get her father and her brothers back. Manya Brachear Pashman: Where are you staying now? Renana Gomeh: We've been evacuated to a beautiful hotel suite in Eilat. My boys love Eilat. I was here with them two months ago on summer vacation. It took me years after I got divorced to get to this point where I can take them to a summer holiday on my own. So it was very meaningful also. So I'm finding it very very hard to walk around in Eilat. But everyone from my–what's left of my community of what was Nir Oz–everyone were evacuated to this hotel and we found it very important to be together. This community, you know, it's like a big family to us. This is why we decided to stay here with them. It's very hard because it's very far away from everywhere in Israel. I know for people in the States internal flights seem like a normal bus. But for us, it's not. But at least it feels safe-ish. I don't think anyone who's now staying here could bear even one more alarm. People ran for their lives, people fought terrorists. People jumped out of burning houses, people fell out of windows, people were hiding in bushes, people were faking themselves dead. There's not even a… I can't even start to describe, you know, for me, the horror was the fact that my children were taken away. But other people experienced horrors themselves. So we're here with our big family, the kibbutz, trying to recover from ashes. Manya Brachear Pashman: Much of the world's attention is on what's going on now in Gaza. What do you have to say to journalists who are covering this war? Renana Gomeh: The last thing I want, as a human being, as a mother, as a woman–if we were to run the world, it wouldn't happen. Just saying. But the last thing I would have wanted is war. You know, we've had so many in the last few years. This is the last thing we need. This is the last thing the Gaza people need. People in Gaza are used as human shields, even their children, like I said, terrorists who are 14. Terrorists, they're children, why are they carrying guns? Why are their summer camps, teaching them how to use guns and to become terrorists? My heart goes out to every mother there. And I wish we didn't have to have a war. And I wish we could live a better life. And I think the people in Gaza had that chance. We walked out of the Gaza Strip 20 years ago, took villages, complete villages out. And it was a very difficult action to do in Israel. Which, you know, we still bleed on it nowadays, politically and socially. And we gave them the opportunity to become an independent state. And they gave the keys to a terrorist organization, which uses all the money that the EU and whoever is giving them in order to weaponize themselves and in order to become terrorists and to educate their children to become terrorists. I used to tell my children all the time: your life is so much better than children in Gaza. You have education, you have running water, you have electricity. And you have the morals that the Jewish world gives to their children: of equality, of mutuality, of giving away from yourself and no wish to get something in return. The other side does the opposite. We treasure life as Jews and they treasure death. So I'm sorry, but my sympathy is gone. I want my children back home, now, alive. Afterwards, we can speak about having a war or not having a war, the conditions they're in, the humanitarian solutions. But the world should know that what happens there is not an independent state. It's a terrorist organization, holding civilians, hostages. Their own civilians. My heart goes out to every child and every mother there. It's not their fault. Manya Brachear Pashman: Thank you so much for sharing your perspective, sharing your family's story. And I am praying and we are all doing everything we can to help you get your sons and the other hostages home. And I pray that that happens very soon. Thank you so much for joining us. Renana Gomeh: I just want them–I just want my boys back home alive now and I want you to help us do it in any way you can. Thank you so much for having me. Manya Brachear Pashman: If you would like to help make a difference, go to AJC.org/BringThemHome. There you can urge the United Nations and members of Congress to secure the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages being held by Hamas terrorists in Gaza.

Jason Isaacson, AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer, joins us to break down U.S. President Joe Biden's historic wartime visit to Israel and his message to Iran and its terror proxies Hamas and Hezbollah. Jason also shares his take on the fast-moving situation, including the fallout from the explosion at the Gaza hospital, the announcement of humanitarian aid to Gaza, and the growing antisemitic attacks in the Middle East and Europe. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Jason Isaacson Show Notes: Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War: Mai Gutman Was Supposed to Be at the Music Festival: IDF Lone Soldier Recounts Harrowing Week Responding to Hamas Terror: IsraAID CEO on How You Can Help Israelis Right Now Learn: What Everyone Needs to Know About Hamas' Lie About a Rocket Strike on a Gaza Hospital AJC.org/AttackonIsrael Donate: AJC.org/SupportIsrael Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Transcript of Interview with Jason Isaacson: President Joe Biden: October 7th, which was a sacred Jewish holiday, became the deadliest day for the Jewish people since the Holocaust. It has brought to the surface painful memories and scars left by a millennia of antisemitism and the genocide of the Jewish people. The world watched then, it knew, and the world did nothing. We will not stand by and do nothing again. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever. To those who are living in limbo waiting desperately to learn the fate of a loved one, especially to families of the hostages: You're not alone. Manya Brachear Pashman: On October 18th, 2023, President Joe Biden became the first American President to visit Israel during wartime, demonstrating his unequivocal support for the Israeli government. Here to talk about President Biden's visit is Jason Isaacson, AJC's chief policy and political affairs officer, joining us from Berlin where he's witnessed some of the European response to the crisis. Jason, welcome back to People of the Pod. Jason Isaacson: Thank you, Manya. Manya Brachear Pashman: I am always shocked when the President goes to a war zone like he did go to Ukraine in February, or in this case, Israel. What did President Biden's visit signal about his support for Israel during this time? Jason Isaacson: This is a president who has long identified himself as a strong supporter of Israel, who has spoken again and again, throughout his political career, from the time that he was a young man serving in the US Senate, of his support for, his identification with Israel. But to hear him speak, as he spoke on Wednesday, in Tel Aviv, after meeting with the Israeli war cabinet that Prime Minister Netanyahu assembled, after other meetings that took place as well, to hear him speak with such passion, such conviction about the priority for the United States, of standing by Israel, of identifying with the struggle that Israel now faces against Hamas terror. To hear him talk about "the nations of conscience," as he referred to the US and Israel together. The struggle that the Jewish people have had over the centuries, the fight against antisemitism, his references to the Holocaust. All of that, and to say that the United States was standing by Israel, in the fullest possible way, the deployment of an aircraft carrier battle group to the eastern Mediterranean. Another aircraft carrier battle group, steaming to the eastern Mediterranean as well to provide additional support. The package of additional military assistance. He described it as an unprecedented package of military assistance that he is asking Congress to approve, to help Israel through this difficult time. All of these statements and his just physical presence in Israel, in the midst of war, spoke volumes of the support that the United States has for Israel. And he also spoke frankly, about the tragedy that occurred the night before he arrived, at a hospital in Gaza. And the fact that all the indications are that this was caused by the fire of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the rocket that misfired. It wasn't, as so much of the media and so much of the region, frankly, has alleged that it was somehow the work of Israel. Very clearly from the evidence that has been accumulated by U.S. surveillance and other means of data collection. This was something that was a misfire from the Palestinian side. All of that, packaged into a single presentation by the president at the old American Embassy in Tel Aviv, just spoke volumes of the support that the United States has for Israel, that the US is standing by Israel in this very difficult time. Manya Brachear Pashman: Let's talk about people who immediately assumed that it was an Israeli airstrike that caused that explosion at that hospital. Many did jump on board with that argument, including Jordan and Egypt. And those are countries with whom Israel has had peace agreements for quite some time, but they seem to embrace that story right away. What is going on with the the Arab nations? What has their response been to this violence? Jason Isaacson: It's profoundly disappointing. Lies have velocity and in the age of social media, enormous power, and circulation that really just can't be turned back without a huge effort to introduce the truth into the narrative. The lies that have been told about Israel for decades, have saturated the region and frankly, the world, and a lot of the international media as well, quite regrettably. Even in our own country. So it's easy to believe that if you've been told for decades, that Israel is a colonizer, Israel is an oppressor, Israel is heartless in its treatment of its Palestinian neighbors, then you see pictures of people carrying wounded people or bodies strewn about a courtyard in Gaza, knowing that Israel is attacking Gaza, because it's trying to root out the Hamas terrorists have attacked Israel just a few days before. It's easy to believe if you've got that background, and you've been hearing this and been raised on this kind of media saturation, that Israel is to blame. And it is only later that the facts come out, that the imagery that we have been now seeing on social media from a few sources, highly credible sources, what the United States government has now found through its own quite formidable means of data collection, that that this was not Israel, targeting a hospital or firing on a hospital. It was a Palestinian rocket that fell on this hospital while they were sending a barrage of rockets into Israel. There have been hundreds of Palestinian rockets and missiles that have fallen in Gaza and have killed Palestinians. This was the latest incident. It's horrible. The people of Gaza are suffering. The Palestinians are suffering because of the rule of Hamas. And the more that the region talks about that openly–instead of talking about it privately. AJC knows from our many years, including recently, of traveling across the Arab world and speaking to Arab leaders who know better, know the reality: that Israel is fighting ruthless terrorists, funded by, supported by, armed by Iran. And waging this war that is really their war, against these kinds of extremists who are hijacking a great faith and fighting in the name of a great faith when they are actually doing everything they possibly can to damage the reputation of and the standing and the principles of a great faith. And Israel is fighting this fight not only for itself and for its people, but frankly, for the possibility of peace and stability and prosperity in that region. I'm hopeful that at some point, it will be possible for the leaders of that region to step forward and say publicly what they have said so many times privately that they know that Israel's struggle is their struggle. And there have been a few assertions of this, I have to point out, in the last week and a half, there have been some statements that have identified by name, Hamas. I was struck by a statement made by the UAE ambassador to the UN. Statements that were issued on Twitter, by the Kingdom of Bahrain and by the United Arab Emirates a few days after the October 7 atrocities in Israel. But so many of the statements that we've seen in the last week, have been profoundly disappointing and hypocritical. Manya Brachear Pashman: You mentioned the actual threat of Iran to Arab nations. I'm curious what message Biden's visit sends to Iran and its terror proxies on the border with Lebanon? Jason Isaacson: Well, I very much hope that having the USS Gerald R. Ford in the eastern Mediterranean, the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower on its way as well. There was also, I believe, a fighter squadron that was being repositioned to the region. There are enormous military assets that were already in the region. But the US has made it very clear, President Biden, Secretary Blinken and Secretary Austin, in their visits to the region as well, have made it very clear that the US is telling the region as President Biden said, again and again, you know, my message to the region is: don't. Don't even think about the possibility of adding to this fight against Israel of joining this fight against Israel. The US will step forward. Whether the US will not only provide additional military hardware, as the President has offered, and there of course are many friends in Congress who are stepping forward right now to provide for that as well. But the US could also enter this fight, depending on the circumstance, on the possibility of a widening of the war. Should Iran make the tragic blunder of deciding to somehow enter into this fight in a more direct way, there would be a powerful response. I think the President has made that quite clear. Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you think Biden's visit will deter Hezbollah? Or are Iran and Hezbollah one in the same? Jason Isaacson: Closely connected, maybe not exactly one of the same, but clearly, Iran would like to see Hezbollah take a more, it appears, take a more aggressive posture. There have been some incursions that have been conducted by Hezbollah, or by people from the Hezbollah controlled territory of southern Lebanon into northern Israel, there have been the firings of certain missiles and mortars. Some of them are not the full scale kind of attack that Israel would need to respond to forcefully and that and that would actually represent a second front that hasn't happened. As of the time that you and I are speaking, let's hope that that doesn't happen. Let's hope that the messages that have been sent by the President, clearly messages sent by Israel, that it is prepared for any fight and will not allow its citizens of the North and the country as a whole to be invaded by by Hezbollah, it will resist powerfully and it will punish any incursion, any attack in a way that Israel has had to do in the past–at great cost. But Israel will defend itself, Israel will stand strong. And the United States will have its back as the President has said repeatedly and demonstrated by his latest visit, and the announcement that he made when he was in Israel this week. Manya Brachear Pashman: You know speaking of Iran, I want to go back to that, they have called for an oil embargo on Israel, how likely is that to happen? Jason Isaacson: I'd say pretty unlikely. I think that Iran's threats are hollow, and will be met by the oil suppliers from not only the region but from elsewhere, including Europe, including Azerbaijan. There are energy supplies that Israel produces, as you know, on its own through an abundant supply of natural gas in the Eastern Mediterranean. I'm not concerned about a cut off of energy to Israel. Manya Brachear Pashman: In Tel Aviv, President Biden announced that humanitarian aid – food, water, medical supplies – would start to flow to Gaza from Egypt. Prime Minister Netanyahu then added that Israel would prevent any aid from reaching Hamas. Why this turn of events, Jason? Jason Isaacson: My assumption is, in the early days of the fight against Hamas, there was a sense that by putting pressure on Gaza as a whole, Hamas could be induced to release the hostages, some 200 hostages that it is holding, that the Palestinian people would put pressure on Hamas, to do so, to save themselves. I believe that there was also a concern that providing anything, allowing anything to flow into Gaza, would provide the wherewithal for Hamas to continue to build the rockets and missiles and make other preparations, build out its infrastructure, and fuel its fight against Israel. So I think the idea was, as in many war situations, you know, cut them off, then move in and try to surgically, as surgically as possible, take out the leadership and, and dismantle the infrastructure of terror. But as the situation evolves, and as it's clear that the Palestinians are, are suffering from a lack of, of food or water power, I think the thinking has shifted with, with the United States and other countries offering to provide additional assistance. I think it's very clear that Israel feels also that their intention is not to harm the Palestinian people, their intention is to eliminate Hamas. Manya Brachear Pashman: So, Jason, I am speaking to you, actually, you are in Berlin right now. Can you tell me a little bit, tell our listeners a little bit about what you're hearing, what you're seeing there on that side of the ocean. Jason Isaacson: Of course, Manya. Before I came to Berlin, I was in Paris, briefly as well. And I know the Jewish communities in Paris and Berlin, elsewhere in Europe, are on edge. There have been large street demonstrations in London and Brussels, in Paris and elsewhere. There was a firebombing the night before you and I are having this conversation at a synagogue in Berlin. There was a teacher who was stabbed to death outside of Paris, a couple of days ago. There were two people who were shot to death in Brussels, as well. There have been other acts of violence. Also within a day of our conversation, Manya, there was a firebombing of a synagogue in Tunisia, which has a small Jewish community that's been, in that country for 2000 years. So there are Jewish communities that are feeling the fallout, the impact of the propaganda that has raced across the world, about Israel being responsible for the suffering of Palestinians. And supporters of the Palestinian cause have come to the streets. And some of them have come to the streets with knives and Molotov cocktails, and have expressed their anger, and targets have been Jews, not just Israelis. And this is dangerous, and it needs to be confronted, extremely directly and forcefully as it has been, for the most part, I would say, by police authorities, by federal authorities as well across Europe. AJC is very concerned about the well-being of Jewish communities in the diaspora as a result of what's happening in Israel and Gaza. We were seeing in the first hours and days of the attacks of October 7, expressions of sympathy from across the planet, striking expressions, powerful expressions. I will not forget the statements by Prime Minister Modi, for instance of India, the most populous nation on earth, expressing solidarity with Israel. But then in the days following that, really attention has shifted entirely, the narratives have changed. And now, what we're seeing more, are demonstrations in the street. There were demonstrations in the streets of solidarity with Israel in the first day or two, including here in Berlin. But, now we're seeing a very different and a very ugly, and a completely misplaced set of priorities and angers and prejudices against Jewish communities. So we need to do what we can, working with Jewish communities, with governments to provide protection to Jewish communities that are vulnerable. And we need to hear expressions of support, solidarity, and truth from governments around the world: what really is happening, what the threats really are, and standing by Jewish communities as we stand by the State of Israel as it recovers from the trauma of October 7. Manya Brachear Pashman: Thank you so much Jason, for joining us. Jason Isaacson: Thank you. Always a pleasure, Manya. Take care. Manya Brachear Pashman: If you missed last week's episodes – listen to: Yotam Polizer, the CEO of IsraAID, on how Israel's leading international humanitarian organization is responding to the immediate and long-term needs on the ground. And Mai Gutman, a 28 year old graduate student and member of AJC's Campus Global Board, who planned to join her friends at the Supernova music festival near Israel's border with Gaza on Saturday, October 7. But when relatives came to visit, she decided to celebrate Shabbat and Simchat Torah in Jerusalem instead—a change of plans that saved her life.

Mai Gutman, 28, a graduate student and member of AJC's Campus Global Board, had planned to join her friends at the Supernova music festival near Israel's border with Gaza on Saturday, October 7. But when relatives came to visit, she decided to celebrate Shabbat and Simchat Torah in Jerusalem instead—a change of plans that saved her life. At least 260 young Israelis and people from all over the world were brutally murdered by Hamas terrorists at the festival. Mai, an IDF reservist who was just recently called up, joins us from her base to talk about waking up in Jerusalem the morning of October 7, the harrowing messages that she received from friends, and the four days since. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Mai Gutman Show Notes: Donate: AJC.org/SupportIsrael Learn: AJC.org/AttackonIsrael AJC.org/CampusBoard AJC.org/CampusLibrary Song credits: Pond5: "Hatikvah (National Anthem Of Israel, Electric Guitar)"; Composer: Composer: Eli Sibony; ID#122561081 Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. ___ Transcript of Interview with Mai Gutman: Manya Brachear Pashman: The techno music festival near Israel's border with Gaza was billed as the essence of unity and love in a breathtaking location. At least 260 people were brutally killed by Hamas terrorists there on Saturday morning, October 7th. 28-year-old Mai Gutman was supposed to be there and had already joined the WhatsApp groups of friends and fellow concert goers to keep in touch. But she did not go. Mai, a member of AJC's Campus Global Board and a reservist who was just recently called up, joins us from her IDF base to talk about waking up in Jerusalem the morning of October 7th and the four days since. Mai, welcome. Where are you now? Mai Gutman: I live in Herzeliya. Currently, located in a place that I can't exactly disclose, but I am in the north of Israel. Manya Brachear Pashman: Are you able to share what you're seeing and hearing all around you? Mai Gutman: Currently where I am I mean, we can hear the news, we can hear what's going on around us in the South as well. Even though we are stationed in the north. Today [October 11, 2023] was a pretty hectic day in terms of developments on the northern border. We had a day pretty much full of running to the bomb shelters and staying there, which indicated some sort of an escalation. I can't go into too many details, obviously. But we can feel the escalation coming and we're prepared for it. Manya Brachear Pashman: So you were born in Israel but grew up mostly in Melbourne, Australia. How did you end up back in Israel? Mai Gutman: I moved to Australia with my parents when I was only 18 months old, and I had grown up in Australia. But I had always felt a very strong connection to Israel. Something that really I couldn't put into words, I couldn't explain, it was just an inherent feeling. And when I was 18, I just decided that I'm going to go to Israel, I'm going to make Aliya and I'm going to draft into the army just because I think, you know, for me, it was important, if I'm going to live there, then I definitely need to carry the burden and be a part of society in that way and contribute. Because I find it difficult to comprehend living here, and not being a part of that very fundamental part of people's lives. It's a very crucial part of people's lives around here. And I feel like I wouldn't really be able to fit in and understand, you know, Israeli society, and also the Israeli mentality without having that experience. And I also just think that it's important, all in all, just to contribute. And that's I guess, how I got into the army. And I served for almost three years in a combat unit in search and rescue. For me, at the time, when I first drafted it was really the first years of women going into combat units. So it was a very kind of still a new idea. And I was really eager to jump on that and see how I go. Manya Brachear Pashman: So with no immediate family there, does that qualify you as a lone soldier? Mai Gutman: Yes, absolutely. So I enlisted with Garin Tzabar, which is a program that brings young adults from all around the world who want to make Aliyah and specifically to draft into the IDF, but don't have any immediate family with them. So Garin Tzabar provides that network of family and support, I guess, to deal with, first of all, all the bureaucracy that comes with moving to another country and drafting into the military. But also, you know, you get put on a kibbutz and you get given a host family, which is really nice. And it's just nice to have that initial support network because it might feel a little bit lonely when we first arrive. But now we're really like a one big family and we still keep in touch to this day, even though it was I think, 10 years ago, almost that we were all together on the kibbutz. Manya Brachear Pashman: So where were you when this escalation first began on October 7? Mai Gutman: I want to preface this by saying I was in Jerusalem on October 7, I was celebrating the chag of Simchat Torah, and the Sabbath with my family with my cousins. And also I had cousins that actually came from America, to join us in Jerusalem was a very big occasion. And that's really, I think, the only reason why I decided to come to Jerusalem and spend time with family because there was a very big music festival happening that weekend. And I was very keen initially, to go to that music festival. I had initially planned to go with my friend. And I joined, you know, the WhatsApp groups to try and find a good crew to go up with and find a means of transportation and all that. And then yeah, literally, you know, I think it was a couple of days later that my aunt had called me and she said, Hey, listen, you know, your cousins are coming. We're all going to be in Jerusalem at the same time. Like, let's, let's all do hog together, we really want you to come and be with us. And I said, Well, obviously, I mean, I'd rather be with family on such a unique occasion, I can go to a music festival any other time. So you know, I just kind of dropped those plans and ended up doing it in Jerusalem and ended up spent spending that weekend in Jerusalem, which was, I think the decision that ended up saving my life. And the morning of October 7, I had woken up to the sound of sirens, of Red Alert sirens, which is the sirens that go off when there's a rocket that's approaching an area in Israel, which was quite confusing to me. It was about 8am. And it was quite confusing to me, because in order for rocket sirens to be going off in Jerusalem, for me, I had to put quickly two and two in my head and say, well, that means that there's a lot more going on down south. So I you know, being a Sabbath day being a chag day as well in my family being, you know, Orthodox and observant of that day, we didn't have our phones at the ready. We didn't have the news on or anything like that. So I had decided to quickly jump on and see what was going on. Because obviously it was a lot more serious than what I thought. And I opened my phone and I'm reading the headlines in absolute disbelief, in shock. Terrorists had infiltrated into Israeli territory, they had massacred people on the streets, innocent civilians. They had burned houses, they'd gone into bomb shelters and literally just gunned people down. I think the most shocking part, though, was when my phone started pinging with those WhatsApp groups that I was saying earlier that I was part of a music festival. And the messages started coming through saying Help us help us You have no idea that here they're gunning us down. They're shooting at us. I'm bleeding, I'm hurt. Can someone call the police, call the army. My friend's dead. I think someone help me, someone help me. And other people are texting like you know some people went some people did it's pretty big Whatsapp group. What's going on? Who do we call? No one at the police station is answering. Nobody in the army bases are answering–why? Because terrorists had already commandeered their bases. They had murdered everyone. Almost everyone in those bases in order to get through. And they've made their way to this music festival of peace and love where people were celebrating. Young people my age, young people, my friend's age, my friends as well, who were there who came to have a good time. And you see them in this footage that they're sending through in the early hours of the morning, sending through footage of, of running of bullets, and they're dressed in their costumes, their beautiful faces made with colorful face paint. And you can see that they were just having a good time and tears streaming and screaming and running and shooting in the background. And it's like a war zone. It was like a scene from Armageddon. It looks apocalyptic. And I was just shaking, holding my phone shaking. What do I do? How do I feel helpless, I have nothing that I can do. And in the meanwhile, there are sirens going off in the background rocket rocket attacks on Jerusalem, rocket attacks down south. And you just feel like, Oh, my God. And you've just woken up just so you understand. Like you've just woken up. It's so overwhelming. Manya Brachear Pashman: Oh, Mai. I can't imagine your struggle in those moments to really distinguish between nightmare or reality. What did you do to try to make sense of things? Mai Gutman: I turned on the news. And on the news, they're saying, Oh, we think that, you know, there are rocket sirens. And we think that there might be something going on in the South that maybe terrorists have entered. We're not sure. And nothing about the music festival. The music festival, I think was only broadcasted the news about the music festival. In the late afternoon. It started being broadcasted. And I from the morning, I've already known about this, the people are literally bleeding out people are dying, as we speak while we're hiding in bomb shelters, people are dying. And and what do you do? What do you do? What do you do in that situation? You feel completely hopeless. And that is, I think, until now, the feeling that most Israeli civilians, if not all, are feeling we are feeling helpless, almost betrayed by a colossal failure on the part of the Israeli military on the part of the Israeli intelligence, that how could this happen? Without you know, we brag we say, you know, we've got the strongest military? And how could this possibly happen, with the most deaths–the most Jewish deaths to occur in a single day, since the Holocaust? Unfathomable. Manya Brachear Pashman: How has your IDF service impacted your connection to Judaism and your connection to Israel? Mai Gutman: It definitely changed me, it definitely strengthened I think, my Jewish identity and my Zionist identity. It gave me immense purpose. Also, as the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, especially one of the largest families of Holocaust survivors, in Melbourne, that really, I think established the community in terms of, you know, our schools, our shows, our youth movements, we had a very family has a very big part to play, and I'm very privileged to be part of that family. But for me, it was, you know, to draft into the army. It's something that I felt as something of an obligation almost because I knew, and we can really take this situation as an example. But I knew that if I don't do something, if I'm not part of the solution, or the help, I guess, then we might not have a country, which means that we may have a Holocaust again. Ad we saw the effects today, of the very real existential crisis and threat that we face in Israel, along our borders. And if anything was to happen, if we let our guard down for even a second, this is the result. We don't have an alternative. We don't. We have a purpose. And my purpose, I feel everyone has a purpose, but my purpose that I genuinely feel, and I this was really strengthened in the army was when I swore allegiance to the army and to the state. I felt within myself that this is something that I won't only interpret in terms of my service and my physical military service, but I'll take with me to my grave I will do this in any capacity that I can. I work in Hasbara. It's my passion to defend the state because I just know that we have no other alternative without it, the alternative that we have is persecution, as the Jewish nation has faced for many years. And that's not an alternative we can accept. Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you feel like you're at home right now? Mai Gutman: Absolutely. I feel at home. I've never felt more at home than I have in Israel. When I come to Israel, it's an immediate relief, a sense of relief in my heart. It's like something when I live abroad, or when I'm abroad, there's a constant sense of yearning, that I can never shake, doesn't matter what I try, it doesn't matter how many good people are surrounding me and my loving family, as much as I love them so much. It'll never fill that void that I have that's really only filled when I'm in Israel, and I can't explain it sounds–I don't know, spiritual, I guess, but that it is what it is. And I feel very comfortable here. Despite the chaos that's going on around us this is I know that I am where I need to be. Manya Brachear Pashman: But you're not just living in Israel. You're serving your nation, you're now defending it during one of its most dire moments in modern history. Mai Gutman: I mean, until I got called up, I was sitting on shpilkes, I couldn't even imagine like I was just what can I do, I went to go to the supermarket and I bought a bunch of like a huge carton worth of stuff, for the soldiers that were already serving that were already called up. I went to go help pack boxes, I felt so helpless, though I really was just waiting for the call. I had been on standby already from Saturday. Standby, obviously is just when your bags have to be packed, don't know when you're gonna be called. And it could be at any time, it could be never at all. So I am happy to just be part of a very strong nation, a very strong military. Despite what's happened recently, I do still believe that our nation is strong and our military is strong. And we will get through this, we will overcome this. Because as we can see, I mean, you know, this whole year, we've been crying over internal division over the judicial reforms in Israel. And it just goes to show you know, what tragedy, unfortunately, that it has to come to tragedy and to bring us together. But at the end of the day, when it comes to real stuff, when it comes to the existential threats and the the things that affect us all, it shows that we are bound together and we are strong together. And everybody doesn't matter what your religious political affiliations are. We are all in this together. And everybody's banding with us together. And it's so special to see and it's only in Israel that we can see such a special and unique form of unity. Manya Brachear Pashman: Is there anything else that you want Americans or Australians to know, people who are outside of Israel– anything that you want them to know about what's happening there? Mai Gutman: I just want you guys to know, whoever's listening here. I know that it's, it seems very, it is very hard, doesn't just seem, it's very hard. The situation is unlike anything that we've seen before. We've never experienced anything like this, especially not in, in our recent history. But I want you to know, and I know it feels difficult being so far away, because I've been there. It's difficult to report on things so far away, but your support, and your raising awareness, your hasbara, your social media engagement. It means a lot. Your thoughts and prayers mean a lot. We feel your prayers, we feel your presence with us, we feel you standing behind us and it's like a whole other army standing behind us. It might feel like you're not doing enough or you're not doing anything at all, really. But honestly, it's more than what you think, it's more than what you believe. So just stand by us. And don't give up hope because we certainly aren't. And we can't, we don't have that luxury of giving up hope. Our entire nation is built on hope. And that's where our resilience comes from. So be strong. We will win this, we will get through this. By hook or by crook. We'll make it through as long as we all stick together as long as we make sure that we count what's important. We remember what's important, who's important to us, hug your loved ones. Because currently there are so many there are over 1300 families around Israel that are currently grieving and mourning and they don't get that opportunity. So make sure to tell your parents you love them. Tell your kids you love them, your sisters, your brothers, your aunts, your uncles, your cousins, your friends, because not everybody has that luxury. And, and yeah, we'll do what we can over here so you do what you can over there. Manya Brachear Pashman: Mai, thank you so much. Stay safe. Thank you for your service, and we will certainly be praying for you. Mai Gutman: Thank you.Manya Brachear Pashman: American Jewish Committee's Israel Emergency Campaign has already raised more than $1.5 million. Funds that have already gone to Israeli hospitals, efforts to evacuate the elderly, NGOs such as IsraAID, providing support for children, and friends of the Israel Defense Forces. If you would like to donate, go to AJC.org/support Israel.

We're joined by Yotam Politzer, CEO of IsraAID, to discuss how Israel's leading international humanitarian organization is responding to the immediate and long-term needs on the ground in the wake of Iran-backed Hamas's barbaric terrorist attack in Israel. Politzer shares how American Jews can step up to support Israelis through this incredibly difficult time. American Jewish Committee (AJC) has launched an Israel Emergency Campaign to support Israeli relief organizations. Their first grantee will be IsraAID, AJC's longtime partner, which has responded to emergencies worldwide, but never before in Israel. Until now. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Yotam Politzer Show Notes: Donate: AJC.org/SupportIsrael Learn: AJC.org/AttackonIsrael Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. ___ Transcript of Interview with Yotam Politzer: Manya Brachear Pashman: On the morning of October 7th, Hamas, the terror group governing Gaza and backed by Iran's regime, launched a brutal assault against Israel, invading towns and cities across the southern border aiming to kill as many people as possible and taking more than 100 captives to Gaza. By the time of this recording, the death toll had reached 900. Thousands more are wounded. In response to this atrocity, American Jewish Committee has launched an Israel Emergency Campaign to support Israeli relief organizations. The first recipient money raised will be AJC's longtime partner IsraAID, which has responded to emergencies in more than 50 countries around the world, but never before in Israel– until now. Yotam Polizer, CEO Of IsraAID, joined us in Tel Aviv earlier this summer. He is joining us again now from New York, where he was visiting when the war broke out. While Yotam is unable to return home at the moment due to lack of flights to Israel, he is working hard to coordinate emergency response from here and is with us to discuss the efforts underway. Yotam, welcome back to People of the Pod. Yotam Politzer: Thanks for having me. Manya Brachear Pashman: It must be so difficult not to be there with your team. Yotam Politzer: Thankfully, our headquarters and our emergency response team is already in full speed. So I think it's also important for me to be here for two reasons, one, to coordinate the support, and not less importantly, to communicate to people here, both in the Jewish community and in the general community, what we're seeing and hearing in terms of the humanitarian needs on the ground. Manya Brachear Pashman: So what are you hearing from your people on the ground there? What are they reporting? Yotam Politzer: I don't think I need to elaborate on the horrors because I think we've all been following the news and saw all the horrific images. But for us, as Israel's leading international humanitarian organization, we have never had a full-scale humanitarian response in Israel. This is the first time we're actually doing it. And we're doing it because the situation is indeed dire and extreme. The biggest need that we identify right now is related to mental health. And because, of course, we are not a humanitarian organization, we're not involved in the security and the military operation. And of course, there are many needs related to the operation that's going on. From a humanitarian perspective, the whole country is traumatized. I don't know of a single person who doesn't know anyone who either was murdered or kidnapped or both. And the number of people who have an immediate family member, or neighbor, who was murdered, or unaccounted for and probably kidnapped by Hamas is so high, talking about hundreds of 1000s of people. Specifically, what we consider the most vulnerable are obviously the people who lived on the frontline, the villages, the moshavim, and the kibbutzim surrounding Gaza. They have lost on average 10-20% of their population in each of these villages. In Kibbutz Be'eri, just an hour ago, it was published that they found 108 bodies– that's probably much more than 10% of the population there. And many more again, are kidnapped. So these communities who suffered the worst atrocities a person could think of are now in different shelters around the country. So supporting them in these shelters in any shape or form is the most important humanitarian mission of our time. Many of them have been evacuated specifically from this kibbutz to the Dead Sea, to the Dead Sea hotels, because it's one of the safest places in Israel. If God forbid, we will have another frontline on the north border, that's still safe enough for these people. And these hotels are now operating as shelters and evacuation centers. And the government and the local regional council and the hotel owners are currently providing the food and shelter. So there are less needs on that front. But again, when it comes to mental health support for everyone there, this is crucial. So that's what our team has been focusing on. Manya Brachear Pashman: You're also operating what are called Child Safe Spaces, which you describe as "a place for the kids to be kids." Tell us more about that. Yotam Politzer: We can't imagine what these kids went through. And we just want to give them some sense of normalcy. And let them be kids again, and let them play and let them express themselves and let them release their stress and allow their parents or whoever is left from their families a chance to finally maybe get some sleep, try to reorganize, regroup and deal with everything else that they need to deal with. Try to, you know, start thinking about rebuilding their life after these horrors, which again, will obviously take years. So when we look at the humanitarian needs, I think we need to look at the immediate needs. But even more important, we need to understand that there will be long term needs for these people, and for everyone that is related to them. And so as IsraAID it's very important for us to be first on the ground, wherever it is, in Israel, or in anywhere else in the world. In fact, our team who was responding to the earthquake in Morocco, is now on its way back to Israel to join our team that's already responding in Israel. So that's in short. Manya Brachear Pashman: In fact, some of the services that you are describing, I believe, you described to me when we spoke earlier this summer, regarding the war in Ukraine, right, many of these similar services were provided there as well, as well as other places around the world. Can you elaborate a little bit about where else around the world you have offered the same services that you're now offering everywhere? Yotam Politzer: I mean, I started my humanitarian career in Japan, again, another developed country, following the earthquake and tsunami in 2011, that killed more than 20,000 people. And they're there, the local government, the local community was very well equipped to support with infrastructure, but they didn't have any kind of emotional mental health support and trauma care. So we actually brought therapists from Sderot, who was working with children who are traumatized in Sderot and develop these models. We brought them to Japan, and we worked with the Syrian refugees with Arabic speaking therapist from Israel. We worked we work in Ukraine in partnership with the First Lady doing mental health and trauma and resilience. And, now we're in Israel. And yes, there are many great professionals doing that in Israel, but many of them were affected. And the level of trauma is so big, that we have to do it in Israel, too. Manya Brachear Pashman: So what can people here do Yotam? How can they help? Because there's certainly a feeling of helplessness as we watch these images from abroad. Yotam Politzer: Yeah and I totally understand and I think being in a position of doing is very important. Look, I think the two main things to do right now, from here from the other side of the world, which is what I'm trying to do as well, while I'm here, is supporting initiatives like IsraAID, like many other organizations who are responding, and they are great organizations, from Magen David Adom, MDA, that people know, and United Hatzalah, and many are focusing on medical services, some of the hospitals, which is very important. The other thing, which is very, very important, and I think each and every one of us can do, even if we don't have the financial resources, is to be ambassadors for the people of Israel. And we need it more than ever. And it means to do it in the Jewish community, outside the Jewish community, on social media, in synagogues, in schools, in the supermarket, everywhere, there are so many ways to become ambassadors for Israel. And this is something we can all do using our phone. And, and it's very, very important. And for the people of Israel, and especially the people who are worst affected. There's so much anger, so much frustration, so much fear, and anxiety. And showing our solidarity, in every shape or form, has a huge mental health impact on Israel. I mean, these pictures of cities, the Eiffel Tower or the Brandenburg Gate. In Kyiv. More than 20 places were displaying the Israeli flag as solidarity. I saw it shared so widely in Israel. I mean, knowing hat we have friends. And a lot of them have a huge impact, not only on the Hasbara, and advocacy, which is important, I'm not against it, but also for the mental health and well being of the people of Israel. So it's very, very important. What is less helpful at the moment, I'm not against it in general. I don't think we need to send supplies from here to Israel. I know a lot of people want to send supplies, but we can purchase supplies in Israel and support the local economy. And there's also a lot of donations going on or so I think that's less helpful. In terms of volunteers, people who want to go from here to volunteer in Israel, that may be needed in the long run. At this very specific moment. I don't think that's a big need. I think supporting organizations on the ground is more important. If you only have limited resources, rather than paying on a very expensive flight, that may or may not go, I think it's important to support organizations who are on the ground and are based there. But it may be needed in the near future, especially as this become a more long term operation. And then we will need people with specific skills and expertise. Manya Brachear Pashman: In terms of the response, what are you seeing that is giving you hope? What are you seeing that is discouraging? Yotam Politzer: I see a lot of things that are reassuring. I see the tremendous support we're getting from many, so many. Not all of them are our typical friends. And, you know, whether it's mainstream media or political leaders, political leaders. I also see some people who are not supporting or trying to paint it, you know, try to be diplomatic on both sides. I don't think at the moment that that makes any sense, to be honest. So that is disturbing. But I also don't hear enough focus on humanitarian needs. I mean, again, I'm not I think the political consequences, the security and safety are very important, but the people there and how to help them and what their needs are, are not being highlighted enough. Because maybe it's less sexy in the news, I mean, we do hear a lot of horror stories, but the people who are alive and survived and lost their loved ones and went through the worst trauma a person could think of are not being highlighted. Also the incredible story of resilience and heroism from so many people. I have seen some of these in the Israeli media, but not enough in the foreign media and not enough on social media here. So I also think we need to celebrate the resilience of the people there that have been the most resilient people before this crisis. But considering what they're going through, we need to celebrate these people, these heroes, these communities, we need to support them in whatever way we can, we need to be there for them. We need to so I don't see enough of that. Manya Brachear Pashman: Is there a particular story that comes to mind that you would like to share with our listeners of such heroism? Yotam Politzer: There are so many actually, but personally, again, and I've been following this news of so many. So many actually, not one person, hundreds of people who were you know, pulled out their sleeves and went in and pulled out people under fire. And these are people who are not in active duty. And they went in and risked their lives in these first 24 hours and pulled out people and some of them lost their lives who are doing that. I was also very touched by stories of Arab nurses and doctors who came in at even higher percentage than they are, to volunteer and to support in the hospitals. I just heard a story of this woman who was not young. But when terrorists came into her house she was so resilient, and she was able to offer – she was so smart and sharp and resilient. And she was able to offer the Hamas terrorist cookies. And to set them down until her rescuers actually came and were able to rescue her. So you know, it's unbelievable. Among the horrors, there are so many of these heroism and resilience stories and I think we should talk about them more. Manya Brachear Pashman: Yotam, thank you to IsraAID for all you're doing on the ground. AJC has been so proud to call you a partner and is so grateful that we can rely on you to help us channel our heartbreak, constructively. Yotam Politzer: Thank you so much, first of all, and we're so grateful for AJC. For everything we do together, especially now. AJC has supported us in more than 20 countries. So we have never imagined that we will need AJC to support us in Israel. But here we are. So that's number one. Number two, I do think that myself and all of us here in this part of the world have an important role to play to be the voice for the voiceless and to bring more support. Thank you very much. Manya Brachear Pashman: In less than 24 hours, AJC's Israel Emergency Campaign has raised more than one million dollars. 100 percent of which will be distributed to hospitals, trauma centers, and frontline Israeli NGOs starting with IsraAID. If you would like to donate, go to AJC.org/supportisrael.

This month, we mark the five-year anniversary of the Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting at the Tree of Life. On October 27, 2018, 11 worshipers were murdered solely for being Jewish, in the deadliest antisemitic attack in U.S. history. As the first installment in a four-part series, we take you inside the Tree of Life building before it is demolished in the coming months to make way for a new complex dedicated to Jewish life and combating antisemitism. Hear from Carole Zawatsky, the CEO behind the reimagined Tree of Life, and Eric Lidji, director of the Rauh Jewish Archive, as they explain their mission: to preserve artifacts and memories so that the story is preserved forever. Carole shares her commitment to honoring the victims, and Eric discusses the challenges of documenting an ongoing tragedy. Together, they emphasize the power of bearing witness to history and the healing strength of remembrance. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Eric Lidji, Carole Zawatsky Show Notes: Music credits: Relent by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com), Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 Virtual Violin Virtuoso by techtheist is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License Fire Tree (Violin Version) by Axletree is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License. Al Kol Eleh (backing track), with Yisrael Lutnick Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Episode Transcript: Eric Lidji: Pittsburgh definitely is not forgetting. It's ever present here. There are people who are healing and doing so in ways that, at least from the outside, are remarkable and very inspiring. And there are people who I'm sure have not fully reckoned with it yet. Carole Zawatsky: It's all too easy to walk away from what's ugly. And we have to remember. We can't walk away. Manya Brachear Pashman: Five years have gone by since the horrific Shabbat morning at Pittsburgh's Tree of Life Synagogue, when eleven congregants were gunned down during prayer – volunteers, scholars, neighbors, doing what they always did: joining their Jewish community at shul. This is the first installment of a series of episodes throughout the month of October devoted to remembering and honoring the lives lost that day and reflecting on how the deadliest antisemitic attack in American history changed those families, changed us, and changed our country. Today, we take you to the Tree of Life building that stands on the corner of Shady and Wilkins Avenues in Pittsburgh's Squirrel Hill neighborhood to hear from two people in charge of preserving the artifacts and memories of the vibrant Jewish life that unfolded inside those walls until October 27, 2018. In early September, our producer Atara Lakritz and I visited the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh's Squirrel Hill neighborhood. Squirrel Hill, where Jews have settled since the 1920s, is quite literally Mister Rogers' neighborhood. We were there to interview those touched by the events of October 27. But it didn't take us long to figure out that everyone there had been affected in some way. All along Murray Avenue, in 61C Cafe, at Pinsker's Judaica Shoppe, at the Giant Eagle supermarket, when we told people why we were there, they all had a story, an acquaintance, a connection. Later, walking through the glass doors of the synagogue felt like we were stepping through a portal, traveling back five years, when life stopped, and the reality of the hatred and terror that unfolded there began to haunt every step. Atara and I were invited to accompany a final group tour of the building before it closed in order for preparations to begin for the building's demolition. The tour was painful, but we felt it necessary to share with our listeners. As we left the lobby, we were told to take the stairs to the left. The stairs to the right were off limits. Someone had been shot there. We were led to a small, dark storage room where chairs had been stacked for guests. A handful of people had hidden there as the shooter continued his rampage, but one man walked out too soon, thinking it was safe. When first responders later came to get the others, they had to step over his body. In the kitchen, there were still marks on the wall where the bullets ricocheted when he shot two women hiding underneath a metal cabinet. The calendar on the wall there was still turned to October 2018 with a list of activities that were happening that week posted alongside it. And in the Pervin Chapel where seven people died, pews punctured with bullet holes and carpet squares stained with blood were no longer there. No ark either. But remarkably, the stained glass windows remained with images and symbols of Jewish contributions to America, the land to which the ancestors of so many worshipers once inside that synagogue had fled to and found safety. Those windows will be carefully removed by the son of the man who first installed them 70 years ago. And they will return, when the reimagined Tree of Life rises again. Carole Zawatsky: The tragedy is a Pittsburgh experience. But it's also every Jew's experience. It shattered for so many of us our sense of security in America. This is our safe haven. This is where we came to. Manya Brachear Pashman: Carole Zawatsky is the inaugural CEO of the reimagined Tree of Life. Since November 2022, she has overseen the development of a new complex on the hallowed ground: an education center dedicated to ending antisemitism, including a new home for the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh; a memorial to the lives lost that Shabbat morning; a dedicated synagogue space where the Tree of Life congregation can return. Carole Zawatsky: What can we build to enrich Jewish life, to remember this tragedy, and to show the world that we as Jews should not be known only by our killers and our haters, we should be known by our joy, our celebrations, our rituals, our resilience. Manya Brachear Pashman: The founding director of the Maltz Museum in northeast Ohio, Carole has spent the last 30 years developing programs and education around the Holocaust and genocide, and overseeing projects that explore Jewish heritage from a national perspective and through a local lens. She led our tour. On October 27, 2018, the congregations of Tree of Life, New Light, and Dor Hadash, which all met in separate areas of the large, multi-story building, had just ushered in the new Hebrew year of 5779. Young students at the Hebrew school had written their own personal Ten Commandments that the teachers had hung on the walls of an upstairs classroom. Carole Zawatsky: Don't egg your neighbor's house, respect your parent. Every one of them said: Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not kill. And those 10 commandments that they wrote in their little student handwriting were thumbtacked up on the wall in the very classroom where the gunman was apprehended. Manya Brachear Pashman: Before the rebuilding of Tree of Life begins, Carole's no. 1 priority has been preserving the artifacts and remnants that bear witness to what happened. Artifacts include the ark, damaged by bullets, the Torah scrolls, which were remarkably unscathed but for the handles. The list of whose Yahrzeits fell on that day, still on the podium; and, of course, the children's artwork and the wall behind it. Carole Zawatsky: In the work happening here, and in my role as the CEO, I constantly ask: 'Am I doing it right? Am I doing enough?' And preserving the evidentiary material was incredibly important to me, that we have the physical evidence to bear witness. And as that drywall in the classroom in which the gunman, the murderer, was apprehended, was coming down, I found myself asking: 'Have I saved enough? Will this story be preserved forever? Have we done everything we can?' Manya Brachear Pashman: Helping Carole with this Herculean effort, is Eric Lidji, the director of the Rauh Jewish Archive at the Senator John Heinz History Center, an affiliate of the Smithsonian Museum, in downtown Pittsburgh. Eric has been collecting documentation and evidence for the archive since October 28, 2018. Painted stones left in memory of the victims, hand-made signs, pamphlets, and prayers from vigils, sermons from interfaith services. But also a pair of tennis shoes, a guitar, a framed leaf from the Raoul Wallenberg Tree planted in Israel, a cross affixed with Stars of David -- all individual expressions of a community-wide anguish. Eric Lidji: Even before I entered the building, we knew that there were going to be pieces of the building that had historic value. Since late 2018, I've been in the building numerous times, dozens of times, doing work there. And it sort of culminated in this opportunity in early June, where we were allowed to go in and identify pieces of the building that became historic that day, and figure out how to get them out. Manya Brachear Pashman: This is no simple job for anyone involved, no less for Eric, who is accustomed to handling archival materials from generations past, not the present. Eric Lidji: It's hard for me to disentangle the work of pulling these things out of the building with the knowledge that these families that I've come to know and love, that this is sort of directly related to their loved ones passing. Pittsburgh definitely is not forgetting, it's ever present here. There are people who are healing and doing so in ways that, at least from the outside, are remarkable and very inspiring. And there are people who, I'm sure, have not fully reckoned with it yet. The stories that we're used to telling at the archive, they move much slower. You know, when you get records from 75 or 100 years ago, that's in motion too, but it's moving very slowly. And you can kind of sit there and watch it, and understand it. And get some sense of what it might mean. But when you're living through something, it's changing constantly, all around you. And it's responding to things in the world. And it's responding to people's internal resilience and their ability to grow. When I look out at the community, I see a lot of different stories. People are in a lot of different places. And it's going to be different on a month like this, where we're saying Yizkor. And it's going to be different in the early stages of the trial versus the late stages of the trial. It's assimilated into our lives now, it's a part of our lives. Manya Brachear Pashman: In 2019, Eric and journalist Beth Kissileff assembled an anthology of raw reflections by local writers about the Tree of Life massacre. It included only one essay by someone inside the building that day: Beth's husband, Rabbi Jonathan Perlman of New Light. Eric also contributed his own essay. He wrote: "I have no special insight into why this attack happened, or why it happened here. I don't know what would have prevented it from happening here or what would prevent it from happening again somewhere else. I don't understand the depth of my sorrow or the vast sorrow of others. I asked him if four years later he would still write those words. Eric Lidji: I feel the same way. You know, there's a second half to that paragraph, which is that, I do have the materials and I can describe those. The premise of an archive is that at some point, we'll all be gone. And when we're all gone, our things are what speak for us. And at the moment, there's a lot of witnesses here, emotional witnesses, I mean, who can testify to what this means. But there's going to come a time where they won't be there. And our job, I say our, I mean everybody's, our job in the present is to document our experience. So that when we're not here anymore, people in the future have the opportunity to have access to the intensity of the feelings that we had. That ultimately is how you prevent complacency. And so I don't claim any, I don't understand anything in the present. But I do understand the records. And I hope that we're being a good steward and custodian of them so that in the future, people have the opportunity to have access to real human feeling and so that they can really understand what this experience was like for people who were alive today. Manya Brachear Pashman: The Rauh Jewish Archive has collected and preserved thousands of artifacts and documents, but no physical or intellectual access has been granted yet. Cautious care has been taken to make sure families and survivors are ready and know what's involved in making the materials available to the public. Once that happens, a trove of electronic materials will be uploaded to the newly launched October 27 Archive, which will become the public face of the collection. The electronic catalog will help individuals, schools, and institutions such as Tree of Life to tell the story they're trying to tell. Carole Zawatsky: We're the only generation to bear witness to this. The next generation will not bear witness. Their children will not bear witness. We have a moral obligation to ensure that these lives are remembered and memorialized, and that we as Jews and as citizens of this earth remember what hate looks like and work toward a better world. It's all too easy to walk away from what's ugly. And we have to remember. We can't walk away. Manya Brachear Pashman: The Tree of Life building is now a shell of what it once was. The stained glass windows will soon be removed for safekeeping until the new building is ready to welcome them back. As the demolition crews arrive to remove what's left, Carole's focus has shifted. Carole Zawatsky: Our focus now is truly on working with our architect, working with the exhibition designer, and forming a new institution. This is an incredibly special moment for us, as we come together and continue to crystallize our mission, our vision, and form this new institution that will be a significant part of the Pittsburgh community, along with the national community. Manya Brachear Pashman: The architect for the project, Daniel Libeskind, a son of Holocaust survivors who is renowned for his redesign of the new World Trade Center site, has described the spiritual center of the Tree of Life as a Path of Light, which connects and organizes the public, educational, and celebratory spaces. Carole Zawatsky: We can never as Jews allow ourselves to be defined by our killers. And I'm delighted to be working with Daniel as our architect and his concept of bringing light into the darkness. Vayehi or, let there be light. We have to bring light back to the corner of Shady and Wilkins. And side by side with tragedy, as we have done throughout all of Jewish history, is also celebration. To have baby namings and B'nai Mitzvot. Celebrate Shabbat and celebrate holidays side by side. That this is the most Jewish thing we can do. When the temples were destroyed in Jerusalem, what did we do? We recreate. And that is the strength and resilience of the Jewish people. Manya Brachear Pashman: Carole also continues to build a multifaith donor base, comprised of foundations and individuals from Pittsburgh and across the country, to raise the $75 million needed to make the reimagination a reality, ideally by 2025. The reasons why donors give vary, but in most cases they're deeply personal. Carole Zawatsky: The events of 10/27 are personal for everyone. For those people who tell us: I heard the gunshots from my kitchen. I was with my children. From people across the country who experienced a sense of loss of safety. To non-Jews who say: I have to have something to tell my children why some people don't like their friends. What did I do? How did I help be a part of the solution? Manya Brachear Pashman: For generations, the Jewish people have confronted antisemitism in its many forms. But through it all, the Jewish calendar continues to guide the community through celebrations of life and beauty and wonder. Carole describes it as the bitter and the sweet. Carole Zawatsky: I've had on occasion, a Rabbi, a funder: 'How are you doing? How do you get through this?' And for me, there's often a soundtrack in my head. And one of my favorite Hebrew songs is "Al Kol Eleh," and through the bitter and the sweet. To me, it is the definition of Judaism. And it's the definition of what we're doing. Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you mind sharing a bit of that song with us now? Carole Zawatsky: Al hadvash ve'al ha'okets Al hamar vehamatok Al biteynu hatinoket shmor eyli hatov Al kol eleh, al kol eleh. Manya Brachear Pashman: This podcast is dedicated to the 11 lives lost on October 27, 2018: Joyce Fienberg, Richard Gottfried, Rose Mallinger, Jerry Rabinowitz, Cecil Rosenthal, David Rosenthal, Bernice Simon, Sylvan Simon, Daniel Stein, Melvin Wax, Irving Younger. May their memories be for a blessing.

All eyes have been on the University of Pennsylvania and the Palestine Writes event, a gathering meant to give voice to Palestinian art, poetry, and literature on campus. However, a number of the speakers, including Roger Waters and Marc Lamont Hill, have well-documented histories of antisemitic statements. Maya Harpaz, Vice President of Israel Engagement at Penn Hillel, and Jonah Miller, a reporter for The Daily Pennsylvanian, take you through what unfolded, growing campus antisemitism, defining free speech on campus, and the responsibility of university administrators to protect Jewish students. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Maya Harpaz, Jonah Miller Show Notes: Watch: Live from Penn: Maya Harpaz of Penn Hillel on Palestine Writes Read: Everything you need to know about the Palestine Writes event at Penn and antisemitism. AJC Campus Library: Resources for Becoming a Strong Jewish Student Advocate Listen: What the UN Needs To Do To Stop Iranian and Russian Aggression Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Maya Harpaz and Jonah Miller: Manya Brachear Pashman: Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman, AJC's Senior Director of the Alexander Young Leadership Department, guest hosts this week's conversation with two Jewish college students about a situation on their campus and how they responded. Meggie, take it away. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Thanks, Manya. This past week, it seemed like all eyes were on the University of Pennsylvania in the lead up to the Palestine Writes event. The event was meant to give voice to Palestinian art, poetry, and literature- all of which are quite appropriate and indeed valuable to have on a university campus. However, a number of the announced speakers strayed from the event's purpose and instead have well-documented histories of antisemitic statements. These include Roger Waters, who was recently described by the U.S. State Department as having a long track record of using antisemitic tropes, after he desecrated the memory of Holocaust victim Anne Frank, compared Israel to the Third Reich, and recently paraded around a stage wearing an SS Nazi uniform during a concert in Berlin. It also included Marc Lamont Hill, whose public remarks as a CNN commentator called for Israel's eradication. At play were questions around growing campus antisemitism, free speech on campus, and the role of university administrators in preventing such bigotry–particularly with the release in May of the U.S. National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism, and its outsized focus on how antisemitism affects Jewish students on campus. To help us break down these events and what unfolded are two Jewish students who experienced this all firsthand and helped drive the course of events. Joining me are Maya Harpaz, a junior at Penn, and Vice President of Israel Engagement at Penn Hillel, and Jonah Miller, a junior at Penn, and a reporter for The Daily Pennsylvanian, Penn's student newspaper. Maya and Jonah, thanks for joining us on People of the Pod. Jonah Miller: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to our discussion. Maya Harpaz: Yeah, thank you for having us. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Great. So with that, let's jump in. So there are many chapters to what happened at Penn, and I think a great deal of misinformation. So let's go back to the beginning. When did Jewish students first hear about the Palestine Writes event, and particularly its speaker lineup? And upon initially learning about it, what were the specific concerns that Jewish students had? Jonah Miller: I think that when I learned about the Palestine Writes event, I learned about it simultaneously with who some of these speakers are. Penn is a large university and institution that has countless events each day, hosted and co-sponsored by numerous different departments and facets of the university. If I had learned about this festival, solely, just about the festival, I would say, you know, great, it's great that this culture, and these literary items are being amplified on campus. Everyone and every culture should have a space on this campus. But to learn about at the same time as concerns of antisemitic speakers, that's when I as a Jewish student, started to get a little nervous. Nervous, because how could Penn allow antisemitic speakers to come speak on a campus that is close to 20% Jewish? And even without that high percentage, how could they be invited to speak at all? Maya Harpaz: Yeah, I can touch on that as well. In my role as VP Israel, a big part of that is seeing what events are going on, whether it be related to the Middle East at large, Israel, Palestinians, all of that combined. So I learned about this event A while ago, late July, early August. So before it was really even being spoken about on campus. I was having conversations as the speakers were still being finalized, as marketing materials were still being put out and discussed with a lot of the other student leaders and Hillel staff, about what our approach was going to be to handle this event. And how we were going to relay that to the Jewish community at large. So similar to what Jonah said, Jewish students definitely learned about the event and the problematic speakers hand in hand after Hillel started sending out emails about it. And after we sent our letter to the administration and after the DP coverage. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: So Maya, I want to dive into that approach in the letter that you just raised. At least from the outside, one of the first steps seemed to be a letter drafted by Penn's Jewish student leadership to President Magill, of which you were a signatory, outlining specific steps the community wanted the university to take on. So can you give us some background of how that letter came into being and can you share for our listeners what it outlined for the administration? Maya Harpaz: Yes, so this letter came to be sort of as we were having these conversations over the summer. And then once we got to campus, we all sat down with the presidents of PIPAC, SSI, Tamid, presidents of Chabad. And we sort of sat down and we were like, we know why these speakers and why this event could be problematic for our community. How do we outline that to the administration in a way that is logical and not also attacking of another group's culture. Because that's not what we wanted to do. It wasn't our goal to get this event canceled, it wasn't to blow it up in their faces. It was really just, we have specific concerns, and how do we articulate that? So we wrote this letter addressed to the president, the provost, and the dean, and sent it to high-level members of the President's administration, specifically referencing Roger Waters and Marc Lamont Hill. And we asked them to have a meeting with us so we could really sit down and have a conversation, and to make a statement about this event. And from my perspective, it was definitely a productive meeting, we voiced our concerns about the speakers, we asked them a lot of questions about what was the process of this event being welcomed on our campus, and they explained how they rented out the space and the head of the NELC department explained the process of co-sponsoring, and we really had an open dialogue about what really happened and how we can improve on that in the future. And then shortly after that, the President released her statement about the event. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: So Maya, I want to dive into a number of things that you just got at. So one is, and you alluded to this, the letter specifically did not call for the canceling of the event. And from my understanding, that's not something that Hillel was asking for. Can you talk about why that is? Maya Harpaz: Yes. So as Jonah also said, when you learn about just the event as the Palestine Writes Literature Festival, it sounds perfectly normal. Sounds like it's just a group wanting to celebrate their culture and their literature. And our goal was not to cancel that. There was over I think, 120 speakers. And our goal was to call out the ones that were problematic towards our community, not cancel their right to speak, their right to celebrate. I'm a big believer in free speech. And I didn't want to ask anyone to cancel something. I know that, I'm sure that we at Hillel and Chabad have events with proud Zionists that have maybe done questionable things or said questionable things in the past too, that maybe even some of our own Jewish students don't agree with. But Roger Waters definitely crossed the line for us. And we ended up asking for him to be uninvited and even though he was on Zoom, we were definitely very, very concerned about that, because it definitely crossed the line of our threshold of comfortableness in terms of hate speech, but it wasn't our goal to get this event canceled. And we knew it wasn't a reasonable ask either. It was a huge event that's been in the planning and in the works for a year. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: And then I want to touch on kind of the tail end of what you just described. So what did come out of that initial letter is President Magill, and her administration, indeed issued an initial statement following that letter, following what you had articulated. And that statement did have a clear condemnation of antisemitism, but it left some unsatisfied with what may not have been in there. So I'm curious from both of you, what was your interpretation of that initial statement? And can you describe what came next, particularly as the national attention started to build around Penn? Jonah Miller: Yeah, I can take this one. So in President Magill's letter, she described antisemitism as antithetical to the values of the University of Pennsylvania, which as a Jewish student was very comforting, reassuring to hear that the president of our university is very clearly against antisemitism. At the same time, she also explained how this is an event that is not being promoted or organized by the university. And at the same time, she also wrote how the university supports the notion of free speech and the free exchange of ideas. So I think what you're getting at is that, definitely a condemnation of antisemitism, which is a win. But at the same time, it doesn't really seem like there was much action that was going to be taken from the letter. It was more an acknowledgement that the Jewish voices on campus who have concerns with, as Maya said, a few of the many speakers of this festival, were being recognized, but they were not being acted upon. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: So Jonah, I mentioned at the start that you are a reporter for The Daily Pennsylvanian. So from a different lens, shortly before Shabbat and Yom Kippur, it was reported that a member of the Penn community entered Penn Hillel and in essence somewhat ransacked the lobby while also screaming antisemitic vitriol. So Jonah, can you share, first of all what we know about that, and also what it was like reporting on something that so directly affected your community? Jonah Miller: That's a great question. So in order to walk you through this timeline–to my knowledge, this is still under a form of investigation by the university, and we'll see what comes out in the next few days or weeks. But in terms of the timeline: so last Thursday morning, The Daily Pennsylvanian received information that an individual entered Penn Hillel, so all of a sudden our journalistic gears start turning, and we wanted to reach out to as many sources that have some relation to Penn Hillel, which for those of you listening is kind of the epicenter of Jewish life and culture on Penn's campus. So from what we understand now, an individual entered Penn Hillel, as someone was opening the door for early morning services, a member of the Orthodox community at Penn. Entered in to Penn Hillel a few minutes before the building officially opened for the day at 7am. So there was no security guard posted, to my knowledge. And entered the lobby, smashed a podium, flipped over a table, all while reportedly shouting antisemitic speech. So that's kind of what we understand was happening. And in terms of how it affected me, as someone who was writing it, I was really passionate and driven to make sure we have the full story. And I think as a journalist, or as an aspiring journalist, it's really important. But at the same time, as someone who I know, people from my community on campus, chances are people from my family or the extended Jewish community, in the Philadelphia area, and across the country might be reading something like this. It was really important to make sure that we had all the facts as strong and robust as possible. But at the same time, it was hard typing those words, it was hard typing how someone entered a place that I like to call a home, for me and for the rest of my Jewish community here on campus. So kind of finding that balance was definitely difficult. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: I can only imagine. And I want to turn to I guess to yet another lens, again with your journalistic hat on. Roger Waters, who Maya alluded to earlier, has a long history and well documented history of antisemitic speech, has, in recent days, basically lashed out at the paper and its coverage. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that and how that is being received by the paper. Jonah Miller: I think that, as campus journalists, it's our duty to be non biased as much as we can. And like I said, really just stick to the facts. We wrote how Penn Hillel was entered by some individual and he was yelling antisemitic speech in a clear and vivid example and trend of rising antisemitism, without a doubt. Roger Waters took this, he actually, I know the video that you're talking about, he said that he was on his way to Penn State, which first of all is not the university that we attend. But he said that he was on his way to Penn State for the Palestine Writes Festival and how the Daily Pennsylvanian commented on his history of antisemitism. But like you said, this is well documented, this is not something that we pulled out of thin air and labeled him as having a history of antisemitism. It's there, it's online, for everyone to see. And it's unambiguous. So for him to lash out at student journalists, you know, all students who are trying to do their best and maintain this journalistic integrity and share facts with our campus community members. For him to lash out at us, it's disappointing, but at the same time, we don't want to respond and kind of promote this behavior of his in any way. Maya Harpaz: And something else I'll just add is, he also mentioned in that video that he came to Philadelphia ready to speak, and then was just informed that he couldn't come to campus and posed this whole idea that Penn isn't allowing him to come on campus. And this just happened. And he came all the way here and he's ready to be here. And he wants to show his support for the Palestinian community. But as I mentioned, I've been following this event since over the summer. And I think Penn also commented this in a new article in the DP, that he was never speaking in person, it was always planned that he was going to speak on Zoom. So for him now to twist the facts and frame it as our school is his canceling him just as he arrives to speak here was definitely very misleading. Because it was never the intention of the university to have him come in person on our campus due to his extensive history of antisemitism. And he ended up coming onto our campus and rolling his window down, as I'm sure many people saw on the video, to actually articulate to participants of the conference that Penn isn't allowing him to speak. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: So I want to try and turn to something more positive, which really stems from both of you. I think, to me, what really was so inspiring to see is that instead of simply focusing on the pain, and there was tremendous pain that this caused, Jewish student leaders took a completely different path, rooted in celebrating the vibrancy and the pride of the Jewish community. And this led to the creation of Penn Unity Shabbat, which our own CEO, AJC's CEO Ted Deutch attended in solidarity. How did that come into being? And importantly, what was the feeling like in the room on Friday night? Maya Harpaz: Yeah, so this was sort of in the works from that initial meeting we had, at the beginning of the semester, when we were talking about how we want to respond to this, it was definitely always an idea that we want to have a big gathering. It's right before Yom Kippur, it's right before a very holy weekend for us. Regardless of what's going on on campus, it's important for us to feel that togetherness, and definitely because of that event, even more so. So it's been in the works for a bit and then sort of as media attention progressed on the Palestine Writes event, and as we were getting more inquiries from people about what was going on, it became really clear that this needed to be a big event and it had to go beyond just our campus community. We needed to invite leaders like Ted Deutch and leaders from Hillel International to really come and join us and to speak with them and to have their support. And the actual feeling of being in there was really awesome. I've never seen Hillel so packed before. The entire building was full, the first floor and all the rooms on the second floor. I've never seen so many people there. So it was really special. Jonah Miller: To add on, from the perspective of someone who did not have a hand in planning it, but was a proud attendee of this event, you could really feel, like you said, the vibrancy in the room and the energy where you know, in between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur students from all different parts of the Jewish community were really excited to be there. I've been to my fair share of Penn Hillel shabbats. But you know, this time I had seen people who I might not have seen before at one of these events. So I think it was really, you know, I was really proud to be a member of the Jewish community at Penn and to really see people, you know, really just come together. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: What a way to bring joy to a moment that really could have just focused on the challenge, so that–it's really unbelievable. Zooming out, now that you're a few days, just a few days, away from everything. So campus issues affecting Jewish students do get press coverage, but often it is simply within Jewish news outlets, and rarely in the wider press, and certainly rarely for such an extended period of time. What we saw at Penn felt unprecedented, both in the national interest and in the last in coverage. Why do you think it led to such significant coverage? And how did that affect the campus environment at Penn? Maya Harpaz: I think one reason for that is because of Penn as an institution, as an Ivy League institution, and also as a well-known Jewish institution. Penn has a long history of a very strong Jewish community that's actually been decreasing in size pretty steadily over the years. So I think that was a big reason why we got so much attention. I also think because of the way that we responded to it, I think if we decided that we weren't going to say anything, and we were going to let antisemites come onto our campus and spew hate, and we just put our hands up, that there wouldn't have been so much attention. But I think because we pushed back on it, it became this discourse that got a lot of attention. I don't even know how to describe it still, because I'm still processing everything that's happened over the last few weeks. But me personally, I'm not a journalist. I'm not usually someone who's ever in the news or speaking to the press. But the amount of attention that that's been on us has really, really been unprecedented. As you mentioned, it's definitely been a bit overwhelming too but I'm also grateful that we've been given a platform to share what's been happening and to bring awareness to it. Because we've seen this happen at many other schools that have large Jewish communities and very strong Jewish communities. And I never thought that an event like this would or could happen here. So I've definitely been very appreciative of all of the support that we've gotten. Jonah Miller: At the same time, I think that the incident at Hillel follows a long lasting and unfortunately, growing trend of rising antisemitism. And I think that news outlets picked up on that. Secondly, to give some credit to my amazing team of reporters and copy editors at The Daily Pennsylvanian, I think that our quick and trustworthy coverage at the paper allowed news outlets, national news outlets, to cite us in their own articles. So for instance, this incident that happened at Hillel, I noticed that within 12, 24 hours, it was picked up by Fox News, and CBS News, both of which cited interviews that I myself conducted with students who were at the scene, in their own articles. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: So connected to that, in addition to the media attention, I think, many Jewish organizations, some of which had little to no relationship with the Jewish community on campus, came to campus with their own ideas of how the situation should be resolved. What advice can you give to Jewish organizations who want to help when a situation arises on campus? Maya Harpaz: The biggest advice that I can give is just talk to us. No campus is the same and although unfortunately a lot of antisemitic incidents happen on a lot of universities, the climate of each campus is very different and the wants and needs of students are very different based off of their campus. So it's definitely important to speak to students before you make an assumption about what they you think they want or make a plan for what can be done and how to solve this issue because it's really us who have a stake in this, obviously the Jewish community at large cares, but it's it's us who have to live this as our reality. Penn is our school. It's also our home. It's our social lives. So it's our everyday lives, we can't escape that. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: So while the particular event itself may have passed for right now, there is a great deal to do on Penn's campus in the wake of these events. The President has committed to implementing much of the US National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism, of which dozens of AJC recommendations were included. And Penn Hillel itself has dedicated time and resources to educational programming around antisemitism. So as student leaders, what do you want to see next? And importantly, what advice do you have for other Jewish students should something like this happen on their campus? Maya Harpaz: So something that we talked about with members of the administration and things that we want to see next is more–and this is something that President Magill mentioned, as well–is more oversight when hosting events on our campus. When this event came through, it was just listed as the Palestine Writes Literature Festival. And they were like, cool, literature festival, fine. But there definitely needs to be more work done to make sure that the lineup of any event is not including someone that is not in line with, as President Magill said, our institutional values. Something else that we discussed is further training for Penn faculty, whether that be residential advisors, or professors, to be trained on how to combat antisemitism and how to identify antisemitism and really introducing that into the other forms of training against hate that faculty go through. And a big longer term goal that I think at some point, maybe in the nearer future than I initially anticipated, is implementing the IHRA definition of antisemitism. Jonah Miller: Hopefully, an incident like this does not happen at the campuses of other Jewish students. But should something happen, my recommendation would be to just remember that our unity can overcome the hate and the vitriol being spouted at us. At the Shabbat together event at Penn Hillel, a Penn alum and someone who's very involved with the Penn community and with the Jewish community, Stuart Weitzman, spoke about how Jews have triumphed over hundreds of years and 1000s of years of banding together. I think that message remains ever-important, to remind ourselves about today. That we really as a community are stronger and can overcome this adversity when it comes right on our doorsteps. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: What a beautiful note to end on, and I have to say for myself, for us here at AJC, and certainly for the Jewish community at large, the reason we feel so hopeful about the Jewish future is because of Maya, your leadership, Jonah, your leadership, and both the courage and joy and thoughtfulness that you brought to this situation. So for all of us, I just have to say a big thank you. Jonah Miller: Thank you so much, and thank you to AJC for all the work that they're doing for students like us on campuses. Maya Harpaz: Thank you so much for having us. It really means so much to both of us to be able to have our platform and to share what's been going on at Penn. Manya Brachear Pashman: If you missed last week's episode, we went behind the scenes at the UN General Assembly with Simone Rodan Benzaquen, the Managing Director of AJC Europe.

This week, Simone Rodan Benzaquen, Managing Director of AJC Europe, joins us to discuss AJC's leading role in the Jewish community's diplomatic efforts at the United Nations General Assembly. Simone highlights key areas of advocacy, including countering the Iranian threat, addressing antisemitism and anti-Israel bias, advancing the Abraham Accords, and supporting Ukraine against Russian aggression. We also explore the impact of addresses from Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Iran's President Ebrahim Raisi, who have used the UN platform to spread antisemitic and anti-Israel narratives. Simone sheds light on the challenges and progress in shaping international policies on these critical issues. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Simone Rodan Benzaquen Show Notes: Test your knowledge: About the UN, Israel, fighting antisemitism, and AJC's role Read: AJC Advocacy at UN General Assembly 2023 Top 5 Things AJC is Tracking at the United Nations General Assembly Five Things to Know About President Raisi and Human Rights in Iran and Beyond Key Takeaways From President Biden's Address to the UN General Assembly Mahsa Amini Protests One Year Later: What is the Current Human Rights Situation in Iran? Listen: Deborah Lipstadt on the Abraham Accords' Impact and the U.S. National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Simone Rodan Benzaquen: Manya Brachear Pashman: All this week, leaders from 193 nations have gathered in New York, addressing the United Nations General Assembly. But there's a lot of action on the sidelines as well. That's where policy experts from the American Jewish Committee do their diplomatic outreach, urging leaders to expand and strengthen ties with Israel, and counter rising antisemitism and extremism. With us to discuss what's been happening on those sidelines is Simone Rodan Benzaquen, Managing Director of AJC Europe. Simone, welcome to People of the Pod. Simone Rodan Benzaquen: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Manya Brachear Pashman: So I'll start with Iran. How are we pushing leaders to address the threat from Iran this week? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: So Iran, as you rightly point out, is a really priority issue for us in all of the meetings we've had in particular with on my end with the European leaders, and it's, and our objective is really to make sure that we are countering Iran on all fronts. Of course, there's the nuclear file. And so our objective is to push leaders to be aware and really understand that, if that was to happen, we are entering an entirely new world. If we think that the war that Russia has been waging on Ukraine was a game changer for the stability of the world, we have not seen anything yet. So our objective is to really push European and international leaders to really address the issue. The second issue is, of course, human rights. We are now a year after the murder of Mahsa Amini, and really the horrible repression that the Iranian regime has committed against its own people. And there has been a time when European international leaders were very, very clear in their support for the Iranian people, and in condemning the Iranian regime and the Islamic Republic. But these past months, we've heard a little bit less of that. So our objective is really, has really been to reengage them on that commitment. And then third of all, and this is really a very specific issue, particularly in Europe, is the Iran Revolutionary Guard. And so the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Council, the IRGC, is not listed as a terrorist organization in the EU. And that is obviously not normal. First of all, because they have been committing horrible crimes in their own country, because they have been committing terrorist acts across the world. Because they are obviously a key sponsor of terrorism across the world, because of their role also in Ukraine. They have armed Russia with Iranian drones, they have trained people on the ground. And lastly, and this is for us, very important as the Jewish advocacy organization, they have been threatening Jewish communities across Europe. There are a number of cases that are now very clear, which include in Germany, in the United Kingdom, but also in Greece and in Cyprus, where it's very clear that Iran is threatening Jewish communities and Israelis on European soil. Now, Europe for the past years, has made it very clear that it's a key priority for itself to combat antisemitism on the ground and in Europe. And that's a very important commitment. Now, if they're very, very serious about that commitment, they also have to act against the IRGC, which is today a key threat to Jewish communities on the ground. So we have been pushing European leaders to take steps to list the IRGC as a terrorist organization. As always, this will take time; it's not going to happen just during the UN General Assembly. But we've made some progress. We have had some very good conversations with a number of European countries and I hope down the line that we will be able to get there. Manya Brachear Pashman: So now what about Hezbollah? Because I know for many years we have pushed leaders at the UN General Assembly to designate Hezbollah, a terrorist organization in its entirety. This campaign has been going on for many years. Is that campaign changing in any way this year? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: No, it's not changing, it continues to be a key priority for us. By the way, the issue is linked, of course, I mean, what is Hezbollah, if not a proxy of Iran, an Iranian state within Lebanon, that is threatening, of course, Israel, but also has been committing terrorist acts across the world. So no, it has not changed. We are just trying to link the dots and explain to everybody that everything is linked. We're not there yet. There are a number of countries, as you know Manya, who have taken individual steps in Europe to list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, because it is blocked on the EU-wide level. But you know what, we just celebrated Rosh Hashana. You know, at the end of the day, there is always hope, particularly for the Jewish people. So we will not be giving up on it and eventually we'll get there. Manya Brachear Pashman: You mentioned the IRGC's role in Ukraine with providing weapons and we heard from Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky this week, warning that Russia was weaponizing essentials like food and energy, not only against Ukraine, but against every country. And I know the UN Human Rights Council created, with AJC's urging, an independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine, which has already determined that Russia is responsible for war crimes. So how are we advancing that conversation on the sidelines this week? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: Listen, on the European side, I would say the conversation is very easy, because Europeans understand that if Russia is allowed to strategically win this war. That means that, though, that they, their countries, that the European Union, as such, will be threatened by Russia. Russia will not stop with Ukraine. President I hesitate always to call him president, but Putin has made it very clear that for him, the biggest catastrophe of the 20th century, is the fact that the Euro that the Soviet Union fell apart. And so he wants to go back to that scenario. So Europeans are aware of it, their commitment to Ukraine, is very much there, actually, surprisingly, because many people, when the war started, were very much afraid that that, at the end, you know, there will not be European unity, that there will not be unity in the international community and in the West, in their support for Ukraine, and finally, you know, a year and a half later, we're still there, the United States is committed in supporting Ukraine, the European Union is committed in supporting Ukraine. But more needs to be done. We need to be able to provide more help to Ukraine. And again, as you said, especially as Russia is weaponizing every single possible way, whether it's energy, whether it's food, to exert pressure, to make sure that at the end, we are faltering. Manya Brachear Pashman: So I want to switch the focus a little bit from international diplomacy and war to the IHRA working definition. This has been an ongoing conversation with the UN. AJC has been urging the UN and its member countries to use it to develop plans to counter anti semitism. How is that coming up on the sidelines this week? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: So we've had some very constructive conversations, first of all, a majority of countries now have adopted the working definition of antisemitism. And they've recognized how much an important tool it is to not only to recognize, to define, but also to apply and to combat antisemitism. So it's a very constructive conversation. But we have also had conversations with countries who have not yet adopted the working definition, who would say, we don't have a problem of antisemitism, we don't really have to do it. And after explaining to them how important it is, and what an important tool it has been for countries, and what an important signal also it would send to the world, if they were to adopt the working definition of antisemitism. I can tell you now, in advance that in a few days, a couple of countries will be announcing that they will be adopting the working definition of antisemitism because of the conversation that we have had with them. Manya Brachear Pashman: The conversation you've been having this week with them, or ongoing over a matter of time? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: Over a matter of time, but that was concluded, specifically here at the UN General Assembly this year. Manya Brachear Pashman: And what about anti-Israel bias? Has that come up? Because I know that has been a blockage for a lot of countries who won't adopt the IHRA working definition, they want to leave the door open for criticism of Israel, but there has been some pretty blatant anti-Israel bias at the UN. And that has really been a priority for AJC to address. How have you been trying to eliminate that kind of chronic one-sidedness that targets Israel? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: This is, I have to say, Manya, a complicated conversation that we've been having, obviously, for years. As you rightly point out, Israel is treated in a way that no other country is. There is a permanent agenda item at the UN Human Rights Council. There is a disproportionate number of resolutions against Israel compared to any other country in the world. Many countries we are speaking with acknowledge that fact. But often their excuse is that they are working in a multilateral environment and that is therefore complicated, because you always have to come to some sort of compromise. But I have to say that nevertheless, I think we are making progress. If you and I had had that conversation 10 years ago, most European, most countries would not have even acknowledged that that was a fundamental problem. That situation today has changed. Many countries do recognize that there is something profoundly discriminatory in that disproportionate targeting of Israel. They just are very slow in finding solutions to that approach. Manya Brachear Pashman: We also heard from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas this week. What do you fear he is communicating? What do you fear that members of the United Nations are hearing from him and taking as truth? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: For years, I think Muhammad Abbas has been really in an endeavor to distort history by denying the link between the Jewish people and the land of Israel. He has engaged on a number of occasions in historical revisionism. He has been engaged in a number of occasions in Holocaust denial and antisemitism, in stereotypes and conspiracy theories. And I think the world needs to wake up to that reality. I mean, if any other world leader had had that kind of discourse, take away the face of Muhammad Abba, take away the voice of Muhammad Abbas and just neutrally look at what he's been saying over the years, we would not accept that. The world, the Western world, the European Union, the United States, we would not accept that, and rightfully so. So why is it that we should continue to accept these kinds of words? European leaders were right, the United States was right, to criticize Mahmoud Abbas, as they have, after his recent antisemitic remarks. But that needs to now apply all the time, we sort of have a bigotry of low expectations on Mahmoud Abbas. I mean, why is it that we consider him somehow not capable of living up to the same standards as everybody else? So I hope that the world will, at some point, wake up, and just expect of the Palestinian Authority and of Muhammad Abbas himself, to accept to have certain rules. He cannot continue to have these kinds of statements. He cannot continue to do the pay for slay, meaning to pay the families of convicted terrorists. He cannot continue to incite hatred in Palestinian schoolbooks. We have to set the same standards for everybody, including for Muhammad Abbas, including for the Palestinian Authority. Manya Brachear Pashman: And do you think the member states realize that or comprehend that and are kind of seeing through his narrative? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: There seems to be the beginning of a process. I don't know if we're there yet. But there seems to be a beginning of the process. I mean, when you have the mayor of Paris, for example, who took away the honorary medal of the city of Paris to Muhammad Abbas, when you have statements that you have never had before, by leaders of the Western world, criticizing Muhammad Abbas. I think we're maybe at the beginning of something new. I just really hope that we're not walking backwards from that, because we just simply cannot go back to that just behaving as if, you know, this wasn't happening. Some of it has to do with the fact, with this delusional idea that, you know, if the Palestinian Authority was to fall apart, if Muhammad Abbas was to fall apart and not be president anymore, there would be worse. But still, I mean, this cannot be an argument in not having the same expectations of a leader than of any other leader in the world. Manya Brachear Pashman: So speaking of narratives, the president of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ebrahim Raisi spoke to the general assembly as well, this week. His narrative was that Iran is the model of human rights and justice. Did that surprise you? What surprised you about his sermon, if you will, to the UN? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: No, there is nothing that surprised me, the Butcher of Iran, who is president, the president of the Islamic Republic of Iran, has been lying to everybody's faces, of course, for many years. Iran is committing human rights abuses, Iran is imprisoning young people. Every single human rights organization has spoken about it. Every single western country knows it and has said it. They are committing rapes of young women in their prisons. They're abducting the families, including by the way the family of Masah Amini just a few days ago, every single day, and the fact that he is lying once again to the world is despicable. What is equally despicable is that the Council of Foreign Relations has intended to host Ebrahim Raisi. There is no way even with people who are asking difficult questions or having difficult conversations with him. That it does anything else then legitimize him and legitimize this terrible, murderous regime. So the only thing that should be done is, really be as tough as possible with this regime, and clearly impose sanctions, condemn, walk out of the room, ignore, but certainly not welcome him with open arms. Manya Brachear Pashman: And do you think the world is buying his narrative? Simone Rodan Benzaquen: Well, it depends what you mean by the world. But I don't think the western world is buying his narrative at all. I think everybody knows, you know, the reality of things. They know everything that is wrong with the regime. There might be differences in how they think they should be approaching that and they might, by the way, also be differences in perception between some Western countries and ourselves on how we think things should be approached. But nobody is naive about what is actually going on in the country. And the way this person, the Butcher of Iran, is treating his own people. Manya Brachear Pashman: Simone, thank you so much for joining us, and giving us a glimpse of what's been happening there. Simone Rodan Benzaquen: Thank you.

Ambassador Deborah Lipstadt, the U.S. Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism, joins us to discuss how she's settled into her new role and shares insights on the development of the new U.S. National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism, for which AJC has long advocated. Lipstadt, a renowned Holocaust historian and one of Time Magazine's Most Influential People of 2023, also delves into the ways in which the Abraham Accords have contributed to the fight against antisemitism in the Middle East. Additionally, she provides an insider's look into the challenges and progress associated with addressing antisemitism and how the National Strategy factors in. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode Lineup: (0:40) Deborah Lipstadt Show Notes: Go Deeper: Test your knowledge of the National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism Read: Everything You Need To Know About The U.S. National Strategy To Counter Antisemitism And AJC's Task Force Honoring International Antisemitism Envoys AJC David Harris Award Listen: People of the Pod: Hear from America's New Antisemitism Envoy Deborah Lipstadt Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Transcript of Interview with Deborah Lipstadt: Manya Brachear Pashman: Deborah Lipstadt, US Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism is a renowned Holocaust historian, recognized earlier this year as one of Time Magazine's Most Influential People of 2023. She has written eight books, and four years ago, advised the United Nations on its unprecedented report on global antisemitism. In fact, she joined us on this podcast shortly after the report's release. Since then, she has joined the US State Department in a role that for the first time carries the rank of Ambassador. She joins us again this time in our popup Tel Aviv studio. Ambassador, welcome to People of the Pod. Deborah Lipstadt: Thank you. Manya Brachear Pashman: America's National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism was adopted in May. Your job primarily deals with US Foreign policy to combat antisemitism. But how does this new domestic strategy affect your work? Deborah Lipstadt: Well, it affects our work and that certainly I was consulted and worked closely with the White House in the shaping of it, my team played a part in helping to shape it people to reach out to and things like that. And there are over 24 agencies involved including the State Department, we're now looking at all the other national strategies to see best practices, what America could possibly adopt. And of course, informally, I'm the administration's most knowledgeable person on antisemitism. So they turned to me quite often for advice, for ideas, etc. Manya Brachear Pashman: Okay. All right. Well, so as I said, your role is more international. Do you need a domestic counterpart? Does the United States need a domestic antisemitism czar? Deborah Lipstadt: I'm not sure. It's a lot on–the strategy is really run out of the Domestic Policy Council, which until about a week ago, was headed by Ambassador Susan Rice, who was greatly responsible for seeing this thing come to fruition. And we'll see how it works. It's up to them to decide how they want to do it. But I think it's also good that each agency from the usual suspects, as I like to say, homeland security, education, FBI, law enforcement, are involved, but so are so many others. Small Business Administration, Veterans Affairs, Smithsonian, all looking at ways to counter antisemitism, make sure there aren't barriers that are there, whether because of antisemitism or just ignorance. Manya Brachear Pashman: And second gentleman Doug Emhoff has been certainly-- Deborah Lipstadt: Even before I was sworn in, after I was confirmed, I was in Washington and he asked me if I would come in and visit with him. We had a wonderful visit. We're in touch all the time. And he really feels this very deeply. And I give him great credit because he could easily have said, Look, I'm the first Jew in this position. First second gentleman. We put up a mezuzah for the residence. We have a Hanukkah party. We have a Seder. We do other things. Don't ask me to take the lead on this. But he's taken the lead. He's traveled all over, he traveled with me to Poland and Germany, where I coordinated a meeting for him with other special envoys, just to give him a sense of what other countries were doing. And I think when he and his staff and other people in the White House who were with us saw that, it sort of energized them to say, my God, other countries have taken this really seriously. They're way ahead of us. We have to do something serious as well. Manya Brachear Pashman: You know, with that in mind, I mean, if you think about it, your predecessors in this position have kind of made it their business to monitor, sound the alarm about antisemitism in Europe, elsewhere around the world. AJC helped convene that group of envoys at the White House. And so in many ways, the table's turned a little bit in terms of, you know, instead of the United States monitoring and sounding the alarm, these envoys came and advised the United States. Has this kind of mutual mission actually improved the relationship with some of these countries? Deborah Lipstadt: It's improved the relationship tremendously. We really work as a team, not as a team–each one has its own you know, position, certain things one can get involved in certain things. You know, I lurk and watch what's going on, but I'm not involved in it. But one of the first things I did in fact, it was the same day as last year's AJC Global Forum, which was in New York, I think, at Temple Emanuel. And I was on the stage with Katrina von Schnurbein, the amazing EU envoy on Countering Antisemitism and Enhancing Jewish Life. And then she and I left the meeting with Mr. Lottenberg, Fernando Lottenberg, who's the OAS Special Envoy, and we met with a group of us of special envoys met to talk about how we could work together. And so we've been meeting and convening. Katrina convened something that the EU others have convened, and then we meet, you know, sometimes we'll meet through the auspices, let's say, we'll be meeting here because many have come for AJC. But it is a government to government when we meet, it's not, convened by someone else. But it's people who speak for their governments coming together, which is quite amazing. I've had great predecessors in this job. They're all terrific. And were strong supporters of me taking the position, very excited about it from both sides of the aisle. And I'm very grateful for that. But there are differences. First of all, Congress elevated the position to an ambassador before I was in the picture. So it wasn't for me. And that carries weight in the world of protocol. That means you speak for the President. I see what weight it carries. In fact, I was just in conversation with a Republican senator, around the time of the rollout, because I was briefing him about the national strategy. And he had been one of those who had pushed for the elevation of it to be an ambassador. And I said, you know, when I first heard you were doing this, I said, Oh, doesn't really matter. I said, I was wrong, you were right. It really enhances the importance, and it shows how America takes this seriously. But my predecessors, certainly amongst the earlier ones, we were the first country to have a position like this. So when something happened in France, and Belgium and Germany, whatever, they would go, and they would say to the government, you know, we take this very seriously, and we think you should take it seriously. Or if they were taking it seriously, we take this very seriously, and what can we do to help you take it seriously, and say, you have a problem, we've got to address it. And now first of all, I go and I said, we have a problem, because we have acknowledged that exists in our country. And sometimes I don't have to go racing as they might have had to, because there's someone else there. There's a local person, there's a national person there, too. So the fight has become much more coordinated, enhanced, and really raised to a government level in a way that it hadn't been previously. Manya Brachear Pashman: Are there particular lessons that you can recall from any of your predecessors? Any of the envoys that you've taken to heart and realized. Deborah Lipstadt: I spoke to virtually all of them before I took the position. And they each had different advice, and I won't say one or the other, etc. But one the reasons–and I've only been in the job a year, but – building alliances in the State Department. And I'm worried a little bit not because of anything anybody tells me, just natural inclination to worry to be a pessimist so that we can be happily surprised when good things happen or the bad stuff doesn't happen. But, would I find compatriots in the State Department, would people see me as you know, an add-on, a niche? Would I be operating off by myself? And that hasn't happened. And it's really been quite amazing. Partially thanks to the advice I've gotten, partially, I think, my own interpersonal connections, but I have built really strong alliances. And I'm not saying I have personally, but people in other offices with other portfolios, see this not as a niche issue. But as a central element of American foreign policy. Manya Brachear Pashman: We hear a lot of statistics of incidents of hate crimes each month each year. And I'm curious if that's what matters most. In other words, does the perception of a community also matter whether it's a Jewish community or any other minority community, if that community perceives a rise in hatred against it? Is that enough to amplify our response? Deborah Lipstadt: The perception of a community is important, perception of an individual. Sometimes, any community, any individual can see things more dire than they are. But I think if anything, the Jewish community has become more aware of certain incidents and more aware of certain things. Give you an example, New York. I think there were a lot of Jews in New York who didn't take seriously some of the antisemitism encountered by Haredi, Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn, you know, who would walk down the street, get their hat knocked off, or get spat upon. And you could say, Okay, what's the big deal? Well, if you're walking down the street, especially walking with your kids and your hat gets knocked off, suddenly you're looking at your father, or your mother gets a little nervous because she's in, you know, other people that she sees people come in and might be dangerous or whatever. And I think now they take that much more seriously. Have that been happening on the Upper West or East Side. We would have been quicker to respond. Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you think that that is enough for a government, for example, to amplify a response? Deborah Lipstadt: Well, certainly a local government, this was happening in New York, but as it became more national, and there's something else in the strategy addresses this. That government can't really deal with, but it can call out. And that's the normalization of antisemitism. And the strategy speaks very directly in the beginning, when it's something I'm paraphrasing, when politicians, when actors, when rap stars, when sports figures engage in anti semitism and amplifies it in a way that it hasn't been before. Government can't stop them. We have that pesky thing called the First Amendment and we all treasure it. Even though sometimes it can make us gnash our teeth, the good comes with the bad, or the bad comes with the good. But the normalization, so with the strategy. And when the strategy was rolled out, I spoke from the podium of the White House, one of the things I said: government can do a lot. Congress is already doing a lot and is willing to do more. But it calls for an all hands on deck and it has to be a public, the broader society has to be involved in this fight, not just because of protecting fellow American Jews, fellow citizens, but because as I think as listeners to People of the Pod know well, antsemitism is a threat to democracy. I've been talking about it now someone even said to me, the cliche, and I realized that I had been the one to really popularize it, as the canary in the coal mine of democracy. But it's a warning, it's a warning. Manya Brachear Pashman: You began your tenure with a tour of the Middle East. Saudi Arabia, Israel, United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi, right? Deborah Lipstadt: And Dubai. The first stop was Riyadh. Manya Brachear Pashman: Oh, right. Okay. And in fact, you were just in Abu Dhabi again just a few days ago. Deborah Lipstadt: I was for a second time, right. And where I encountered an AJC's delegation. But AJC has been present in Abu Dhabi in the Emirates for a very long time. Manya Brachear Pashman: I want to talk a bit about those visits and the Abraham Accords, which is another circumstance that has changed. I mean, your immediate predecessor got to benefit a little bit from the Abraham Accords. But I'm curious if those Accords are removing barriers, helping foster relationships. And you know, that will only continue to improve the relationship between Israel and Muslim majority countries but also, their receptiveness to your message for combating antisemitism. Deborah Lipstadt: The Abraham Accords are of prime importance. And they've been wholly embraced by the State Department, this administration, and not only embrace, but I've been encouraged to build on them, in part because we see them as a good thing in terms of fostering relations in the region between Israel and these other Muslim majority countries, but also because we see them as enhancing the Middle East enhancing the economy. I mean, it's a great thing when we all go into Ben Gurion Airport and we look up and there's the flight to Atlanta and right in front of it's a flight to Abu Dhabi, you know, or the flight to Detroit, Dubai , you know, it's some people say it's Mashiach, it's the time of the Messiah in that sense. The Abraham house in Abu Dhabi, which is a mosque, a church and synagogue is magnificent, of course, that's not part of the Abraham accords. So that wasn't, that was generated in 2018, with a visit of Pope Francis to Abu Dhabi, who said, Let us build the church and a mosque, and it was the leadership of the Emirates that said, let's build a synagogue, to make it a complex of the Abraham House, of the Abrahamic faith. So and then of course, Morocco, which refers to its normalization because it's been doing this for quite a while, Morocco that expects 400,000 Israeli tourists this year. I think last year it had 225,000. And then it's just you know, everywhere. And all those things are good things. And then there are countries which are not yet and I've used not yet euphemistically, part of these things, but see them as working and see them as operating. And I think they're very important. Manya Brachear Pashman: And do you do feel that they are perhaps more receptive to your message and to listening to what you have to say? Deborah Lipstadt: Yes, of course, I mean, I think even you know, when I went to Riyadh, to Saudi Arabia, I had meetings with high ranking officials, now you can show up and you can meet with the Minister of, I don't know, keeping the paint dry or something like that. Or you can meet with higher level ministers and I met with high level ministers, very productive meetings. And one of my messages was, look, there is a geopolitical crisis in this region, we're well aware that, my country is well aware of it. I work for a government that has hundreds of people actively engaged in addressing this issue. But that's something in many respects separate and apart from prejudice, and from hatred. And the example, I had this interesting encounter in either Riyadh and Jeddah with an older imam who knew what was meeting with me and he knew what my, what my status was on my remit, was my portfolio was and he said, If Israel solved the Palestinian crisis, there'd be no antisemitism. So there was a part of me that thought, I think there was antisemitism before there was a Palestinian crisis, I think there was antisemitism, for those in Israel, I think there was antisemitism, Zionism, you need to go back and back and back. But I didn't think that was going to get me anywhere, you know, putting it on my professorial hat, my mortar board as we do at graduation and lecturing him on that. So instead, I said to him, after 9/11, in my country, there was a surge, not of Islamophobia, but Islamic hatred. And as you will remember, I'm sure, there was an attempt at one point to build a Muslim community center, opposite Ground Zero, where the World Trade Center had been. And in fact that the group that was building it consulted with the Jewish community center of Manhattan, you know, how, what's your experience? What room? Did you build enough? Should we have a gym, swimming pool, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And whatever body whether it was the city council or whatever in New York. New York, the polyglot capital of the United States, refused permission, because they said to build the Muslim community center, adjacent to Ground Zero, when it was Muslims that had destroyed the buildings and murdered the people there, would be an insult. And many of us thought that was wrong. That was prejudice. And I said, why should Muslims in lower Manhattan, a woman who wants a good place for her children to learn about their tradition, or to have an Iftar or whatever it might be a man to go to pray or whatever? Why should they be denied that right, because other Muslims had destroyed and attacked the buildings? And the man said to me, you're absolutely right. It was prejudice. I said, well, to say that antisemitism is solely dependent on what Israel does or doesn't is the same thing. And he got very quiet. I don't think I changed his mind. But he stopped arguing. Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you see any progress toward people understanding it more as a territorial conflict? Deborah Lipstadt: I think so. I hope so. I think it's a continuing, it's not like you get to a point and then well, we're at this point. Now we get to the next point, you know, like I used to lift 20 pounds, I can lose 30 pounds, you know, it goes back and forth. It goes back and forth, depending on the situation. It's a volatile process. Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you think that getting them to understand it as a territorial conflict would actually fulfill part of your role in terms of combating antisemitism? Deborah Lipstadt: Yes, absolutely. But I think it's also necessary not to do things that are going to aggravate or not to do things that are going to make it harder for some of these countries to follow through with the Abraham Accords, so it cuts both ways. Manya Brachear Pashman: In May, you and Ambassador Hood attended the annual Lag Ba'omer Festival at the El Ghriba synagogue. Deborah Lipstadt: In Djerba, Tunisia. Manya Brachear Pashman: The island of Djerba. Tunisia is one of dozens of Arab countries where Jews were forced out and displaced. And I'm curious if you could reflect a little on the situation of Jews in the Middle East and North African countries. Deborah Lipstadt: Tunisia is a different story than Morocco, different story than the Emirates, then Bahrain. In that it does have a very small Jewish community. I think there are 1300 Jews in Djerba, been there, hundreds, thousands you know, years. And it's much more a community in Tunis than in a number of other places. But this festival has been going on for quite a while. And it was really reasserting itself after COVID, after an attack about 20 years ago on the festival. And it was so promising. And when I heard that Ambassador Hood, our American ambassador in Tunis was going, I said, you want company, he said, I'd love it. So we went together. We visited the school there that is funded by and supported by the Joint American Jewish joint distribution committee, the joint, the JDC, one of the little students showed them how to draw an aleph. It's was very poignant. And we had a wonderful time. And then we went to the festival that night. And it was joy. The night before the deputy minister from the government catered a kosher meal for us, a kosher feast for many of the foreign representatives who were there. And we went to the festival and it was just joyous and we just loved it. We were so happy and meeting people and seeing people and meeting old friends and etc. And people are the American ambassadors here, which was very exciting. And we stood in a place and I noticed that our security guards were pretty tight security because of course Americans and back to two ambassadors and personnel from American Embassy in Tunis. We're getting nervous I said, it should relax. 24 hours later precisely in that same place, there was a shooting and two guards were killed. Two Jewish one French, Tunisian and once one Israeli Tunisian, were murdered. So it's very sober. Very, very sobering. And Tunisia was that in the beginning, what we say reluctant to acknowledge this as an anti semitic act they talked about as criminality, they talked about it as terrorism. So Ambassador Hood and I together, not together with, but also with president Macron, and the German Foreign Minister, all said this is antisemitism plain and simple. Manya Brachear Pashman: And swayed them, turned? Deborah Lipstadt: Oh, well, I don't know if we swayed them, but we got them to, he met with the President and met with the chief rabbi. And they changed a little bit, but sometimes it's criminality. Sometimes someone gets mugged on the street, and doesn't matter what they are who they are. But when this guy shot, he was on guard at a naval base. He shot his fellow guard, took a car and drove half hour across the island, to the synagogue, to attack the synagogue. And he didn't say, Oh, they're a crowd of people. I mean, he knew where he was going. And he knew what he was doing. Manya Brachear Pashman: My last question is, some listeners might not realize that there is actually a separate Special Envoy for Holocaust issues. Deborah Lipstadt: That's right, Ellen Germain. Manya Brachear Pashman: Your colleague Ellen Germain. Given the rise of Holocaust distortion, trivialization, your candidate, the loss of survivors, how much of what you do now intersects with her work? Deborah Lipstadt: Well, we're very careful. I mean, she's really handling Holocaust reparations issues, property reparations, not that we get directly involved, but in urging countries to address these things. But there's not that much overlap. But there's a great deal of cooperation with us, you know, times traveling together, working together, the more the more. Manya Brachear Pashman: Are their priorities that you can see for implementing the National Strategy since we started talking about it. Deborah Lipstadt: I think there are so many things in there that can be done large and small. I urge people to download it. Maybe you can put the link on your website. It's downloadable. It's 60 pages, read the whole thing. thing. I have to tell you, I knew it as it was emerging. But at one point when I saw a draft of it, and they asked me to go over it, I was abroad doing it in another country. So complicated. But of course, as I began to read it without going into the specifics even have different issues. I was deeply moved. Because I don't like to correct my boss, otherwise known as the President of the United States. But when he spoke about it at the White House, he called it the most momentous comprehensive plan the American government has ever addressed and he was wrong. It was the first comprehensive plan that the American government has ever addressed. Of course, when there've been tragedies and presidents from both sides of the aisle, from all perspectives have condemned, have responded, America has responded. Law enforcement has responded. But this is the first time that the United States government is taking the bull by the horns and saying, What can we do to address this scourge? And as I said, from the podium of the White House when it was rolled out, probably making history because it's the first time a mishna was quoted from the White House or talmud was quoted from the White House. I quoted from the verse from ethics of the elders, pirkei avot – lo aleicha hamlacha ligmor, v'lo ata ben chorin livatel mimenu. You're not obligated to complete the task, but you're not free from starting, from engaging in it. The United States government has now seriously engaged in it. Manya Brachear Pashman: Well, thank you so much, Ambassador. Deborah Lipstadt: Thank you.