Behavioral Grooves Podcast

Chiara Varazzani, PhD is the Principal Advisor at the Behavioral Insights Unit in the Victorian Government's Department of Premier and Cabinet in Australia. Chiara is Italian born, French-educated, and employed in Australia, adding her to the list of Italian-born behavioral scientists we’ve had on our show (Cristina Bicchieri, Francesco Gina, and Silvia Saccardo, in case you’re counting). She blew us away with her passion for behavioral science as well as her comments about the way our brain calculates the ratio between effort and reward with dopamine and noradrenaline. It was a reminder that there is hard science behind why we do what we do.  She also wondered why so much of behavioral science interventions rely on what she very passionately described as old school methods. Interesting question! If you’re a marketer or a health care provider, Chiara has insights that prove beneficial to your work. And if you have any ideas on how to use smell in the world of sales incentives, we’d love to talk with you about that! We also had a great exchange about music. Chiara has very wide musical interests and her playlists are bound to invite you into some wonderful, and possibly unfamiliar, artists. Please enjoy our conversation with Chiara Varazzani.   © 2020 Behavioral Grooves Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan   Links Chiara Varazzani, PhD: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvarazzani/ Antonio Damasio, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Damasio FMRI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_magnetic_resonance_imaging Electroencephalogram (EEG): https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/eeg/about/pac-20393875 Portable EEG: https://imotions.com/blog/eeg-headset-prices/ Common biases and heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit# Sleep, Rotten Eggs and Smoking Study: https://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/46/15382 BETA (Behavioral Economics Team of Australia): https://behaviouraleconomics.pmc.gov.au/ BETA Impact Report: https://behaviouraleconomics.pmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/resources/pmc-beta-impact-report-web.pdf Dopamine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine Noradrenaline: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/noradrenalin Neuromarketing World Forum: https://www.neuromarketingworldforum.com/ Michael Hallsworth & Music: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/michael-hallsworth-from-mindspace-to-east/ Cristina Bicchieri, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ Francesca Gino, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/francesca-gino-curiosity-and-rebellion-makes-your-career/ Silvia Saccardo, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/silvia-saccardo-ethics-of-decisions-and-italian-rap/ Jana Gallus, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/jana-gallus-the-role-of-precision-in-incentives/ James Heyman, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavioral-grooves-1-james-heyman-phd/   Musical Links Leonard Cohen “Suzanne” with Judy Collins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toEk9DaLrgs Jacques Brel “Marieke”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfGDpzL9H7Y Fabrizio de André “Creuza de Ma”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78YNQ7zzxvQ Antonio Vivaldi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Vivaldi Bombino: https://open.spotify.com/album/4gcKhaSReWjY8R5q2jMdLz?highlight=spotify:track:6p3PMnO8z1I8fPqx2j1Mkj Trent Reznor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Reznor Natural Born Killers Soundtrack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Born_Killers_(soundtrack) Judy Collins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judy_Collins Stephen Stills “Suite: Judy Blue Eyes”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVUwrifwKrI Tim Houlihan “Those Who Discovered the World”: https://open.spotify.com/track/1UMdtl78cXrrrRZRQ0zRSv Tim Houlihan “Aljezur Sunrise”: https://open.spotify.com/track/1UMdtl78cXrrrRZRQ0zRSv

John Fuisz is co-founder of Veriphix and a marketer who believes in building great brands. He does so with a sophisticated system that, on the surface, appears simple and direct; however, it’s built on his astute observations of consumer behavior, the clever use of data, and most importantly, it’s related to Annie Duke’s use of bets to measure future behaviors. We wanted to talk to John because his work tracks the seemingly subtle, yet extremely powerful, ways our buying and voting behaviors can be influenced. Veriphix connects brands with users with three primary tools: First, by tracking emotional vectors, to understand how we feel about things on a weekly basis by asking them to make bets about what they expect to feel. Second by monitoring the emotional triggers that get us to do the things we do. Lastly, he watches for the implicit delta, the measure of the emotional impact of an issue. And he does so with very strict ethical standards. John believes that marketers should elevate their messaging to build great brands, not just influence our subconscious decision making. He wants to dilute the impact that nefarious actors have on consumers (and voters) by challenging us to a meaningful first step. He notes, “We want to believe we’re rational humans, but to have an effective defense [against bad actors], we have to admit we’re irrational.” Please take a moment to rate Behavioral Grooves or leave us a review. Our podcast doesn’t have advertisers; rather, we rely on listeners like to you help us get the word out. Your help is greatly appreciated. We hope you enjoy our conversation with John Fuisz. Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan © 2020 Behavioral Grooves   Links John Fuisz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-fuisz/ Veriphix: https://veriphix.com/ Annie Duke: https://www.annieduke.com/ “Thinking In Bets”: https://www.amazon.com/Annie-Duke/e/B001K88E4U/ Claire McCaskill “Korea”: https://www.vox.com/2018/8/20/17759574/midterm-russia-china-north-korea-iran-hack-cyber DARPA: https://www.darpa.mil/ Christopher Wylie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Wylie “Mind Fuck”: https://www.amazon.com/Mindf-Cambridge-Analytica-Break-America/dp/1984854631 IRB: https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/institutional-review-boards-frequently-asked-questions Ozan Varol “Think Like a Rocket Scientist”: https://www.amazon.com/Think-Like-Rocket-Scientist-Strategies/dp/1541762592 Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit# Charlotte Blank: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlotte-blank-52554a2/ Jeff Kreisler: http://jeffkreisler.com/ Neuromarketing World Forum: https://www.neuromarketingworldforum.com/ Darren Brown video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ John Bargh and Replication: https://replicationindex.com/2019/03/17/raudit-bargh/ Moral Foundations: https://moralfoundations.org/ Kids Priming video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=TLf2gOrL1iM&app=desktop   Musical Links Depeche Mode: http://www.depechemode.com/ Sharon Van Etten: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7sTHoeH0eA Gary Clark, Jr.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYXMDCNjl8M Guy Clark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Clark Ziggy Marley: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggy_Marley New Order: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(band) The National: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_(band) Sha-Na-Na: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha_Na_Na Sinead O’Connor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin%C3%A9ad_O%27Connor Wolfman Jack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfman_Jack Iron & Wine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_%26_Wine Calexico: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calexico_(band) Madison Cunningham: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VSDUqVmnI

Author and economist Andrew Wagner’s new book, The Economics of Online Gaming, shares how economic decisions get made by players of online games. We discuss how reputations and player behaviors impact success in the game. For instance, a very positive reputation could lead other players to work with you, but it also could lead them to take advantage of you. Andrew discovered, in this game, that while a bad reputation sets people against you, it also provided unforeseen benefits in the game, economically speaking, of course. We agree with Andrew that economics can be intimidating because it is a math-heavy field. To some, economics is simply inaccessible. However, we all love the drama found in video games, so Andrew combined drama with economics in his book. Also, if you’ve not checked out our new podcast channel, Weekly Grooves, please do so. Each weekly episode is short-commute ready (no more than 15 minutes long) and brings behavioral insights to the week’s headlines.  © 2020 Behavioral Grooves Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan   Links Andrew Wagner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/atwagner/ The Economics of Online Gaming:  https://www.businessexpertpress.com/books/the-economics-of-online-gaming-a-players-introduction-to-economic-thinking/ Eternal Lands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Lands PacMan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pac-Man Guide to Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit# Ponzi Scheme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme Tom Petters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Petters Bernie Madoff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Madoff Multilevel Marketing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing Economies of Scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale Reputation Capital: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reputation_capital Comcast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comcast Risk Tolerance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_aversion Ethics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics Jeff Kreisler: https://www.harpercollinsspeakersbureau.com/speaker/jeff-kreisler/ Alex Azar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Azar Boeing 737Max: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX FAA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Aviation_Administration Dan Ariely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Ariely Napster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napster Welcome Back Kotter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_Back,_Kotter Weekly Grooves: https://weeklygrooves.podbean.com/   Musical Links Staind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staind The Fray: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fray Cold Play: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coldplay Fuel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_(band) Green Day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Day The Rembrandts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rembrandts “I’ll Be There For You” Theme Song: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ll_Be_There_for_You_(The_Rembrandts_song) John Sebastian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sebastian “Welcome Back” Theme Song: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_Back_(John_Sebastian_song) The Lovin’ Spoonful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lovin%27_Spoonful

In this special edition, bestselling author and Forbes contributor, Rodd Wagner, organized a question-and-answer session with Kurt and Tim in front of a live audience to discuss whether behavioral sciences could be applied to corporate environments in ways that allow leaders to manipulate their employees. And, if so, where does that land on the ethical spectrum? Rodd has grown increasingly intrigued and sometimes concerned that behavioral science has reached a point of refinement and adoption that it could create an unprecedented and unfair imbalance in the social contract between companies and the people who work at them. For example, IBM claims it can predict with 95 percent accuracy whether someone is about to resign and some companies are experimenting with selection systems in which candidates interact first with robots. Rodd, Kurt, and Tim are joined by John Harris, currently the Lead UX Design Researcher in the Healthcare Business Group at 3M and was recently a Projects Director at ideas42, a premiere pro-social non-profit organization. John started his career at the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa and continues to maintain a very pro-social mindset. Some of the issues covered in our conversation included:  What if corporate leaders can keep their employee satisfaction scores the same by giving employees water bottles rather than raises? What if the “client” was the rank and file of the firm, rather than the leaders?  If nudges are aggregated, do they necessarily become manipulative? Is there a single ethical code that should be applied to every situation? We hope you join us for this non-traditional approach to our podcast.   Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan   Sponsored by: Lantern Group: http://lanterngroup.com/ BehaviorAlchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/ © 2020 Behavioral Grooves   Links Rodd Wagner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roddwagner/ John Harris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnharrisiv/ Kurt Nelson, PhD: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurtwnelson/ Tim Houlihan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-houlihan-b-e/ Azul Seven: https://azulseven.com/ Rodd Wagner Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rodd-wagner-this-episode-could-save-your-life/ Steve Sisler Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/steven-sisler-seeing-people-as-we-are/ Katie Milkman, PhD Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-behavior-change-for-good/ Cristina Bicchieri, PhD Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ Victoria Shaffer, PhD Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/victoria-schaffer-end-of-life-decision-tools/ Patricia Norberg, PhD: https://directory.qu.edu/Profile/27981 Magical Thinking, Eric Oliver, PhD: https://voices.uchicago.edu/religionsinamerica/2018/01/26/21-workshop-measuring-an-intuitionist-worldview-by-professor-eric-oliver/ Behavioural Insights Team: https://www.bi.team/ Doug Burgum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Burgum Great Plains Software (now Microsoft Dynamics): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Dynamics_GP Casuistry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuistry

As a new product and innovation professional, Adam Hansen has always believed in the power of possibility – accepting new approaches, questioning conventional wisdom, and being open to anything. This impulse led him to a career in developing new products for innovative companies such as Mars, Melaleuca and American Harvest, before joining the innovation firm, Ideas To Go, in 2001. Now as a facilitator, Adam is passionate about helping clients understand their own possibilities—even beyond the scope of their projects—so they take the innovative energy and momentum they gained at ITG back to their own organizations. Adam is the co-author of Outsmart Your Instincts – How The Behavioral Innovation™ Approach Drives Your Company Forward, which explores the intersection of behavioral science and innovation, revealing simple ways to get past the nonconscious cognitive biases that make innovation unnecessarily difficult. Adam’s path to innovation process started with an MBA in product management from Indiana University. He also cultivated his passion for New Product Development on the board of the Product Development & Management Association and serving as a volunteer innovation advisor for the National HIV Clinicians’ Network at UCSF.   Links Adam Hansen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adhansen/ “Outsmart Your Instincts”: https://www.amazon.com/Outsmart-Your-Instincts-Behavioral-Innovation/dp/0997384506 M&M Mars: https://marschocolate.com/ Ideas to Go: https://www.ideastogo.com/ Metacognition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacognition Biases & Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit?usp=sharing Teresa Amabile, PhD “Brilliant but Cruel”: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6409 “Yes, and…”: https://bigthink.com/experts-corner/why-yes-and-might-be-the-most-valuable-phrase-in-business Viktor Frankl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl Kurt Lewin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Lewin Johan Huizinga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Huizinga Homo Ludens/The Playful Ape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Ludens System 1 / System 2 Thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow Assumption Busting: https://www.ideastogo.com/articles-on-innovation/assumption-busting-with-ikea Functional Fixedness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_fixedness Conformity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity Progress Principle: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=40692 Blood Harmony: https://www.deseret.com/1999/6/10/19449890/sibling-harmony-br-family-members-often-have-tight-vocal-harmony Hammond Organ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammond_organ Leslie Speaker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_speaker Rap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapping Rock n Roll: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_roll Major Third Chord: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_(chord) Major Ninth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth Two-Seventh Resolving to Five: https://www.hearandplay.com/main/resolve-dominant-seventh-chords Linnea Gandhi episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linnea-gandhi-crushing-on-statistics/ John Sweeney episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-sweeney-everything-is-a-story/ NY Times – Overcoming Your Negativity Bias:  https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/overcoming-your-negativity-bias/ John Cacioppo: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/200306/our-brains-negative-bias Homo Ludens, by Johan Huizinga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Ludens    Musical Links Iron Butterfly “In A Gadda Da Vida”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIVe-rZBcm4 Deep Purple “Smoke on the Water”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUwEIt9ez7M Doobie Brothers “China Grove”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udSHItTjWyQ Steely Dan “Don’t Take Me Alive”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gV1sxB8TxI Monkees “Pleasant Valley Sunday”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUzs5dlLrm0 The Thorns “Among the Living”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh-aL6FCvMY Crosby, Stills & Nash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMJug2iz3NA The Beatles “Rubber Soul”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_Soul The Beatles “Revolver”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver_(Beatles_album) Crowded House “Don’t Dream It’s Over”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9gKyRmic20 The Beach Boys “God Only Knows”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8qZMFFDYa0 Louis Prima “Yes, We Have No Bananas”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hF05ik5TFQ

For this episode, we’re republishing a terrific conversation we had with economist and author, Caroline Webb, PhD (in episode 33). We loved her book, How to Have a Good Day, and still do, and we loved talking to her about her work both as an economist and as a musician. On top of that, Caroline is just one of those people that is great to hang out with. Caroline was educated at Oxford, Cambridge, and the Levy Economics Institute. She has worked at McKinsey & Associates, performed at Carnegie Hall, delivered speeches at the Davos World Economic Forum. And more importantly for our discussion today, Caroline as the author of How to Have a Good Day, a terrific how-to guide that has been published in more than 60 countries. It’s worth noting that when we talked about How to Have a Good Day, Caroline said that it was the hardest project she’s ever taken on. In fact, it is literally the result of her lifetime’s worth of research and experience. She even admitted that she doesn’t see another book – at least like this one – in her future. We agree that How to Have a Good Day is rich with wisdom beyond the bullet points and we recommend it to our listeners.   Links Caroline Webb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Webb How To Have a Good Day: https://carolinewebb.co/books/how-to-have-a-good-day/ Personal Why: https://magazine.vunela.com/part-ii-defining-your-personal-why-eed037a352e2 Priming: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/priming Priming Socks: http://blog.lanterngroup.com/?s=socks Carnegie Hall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Hall Peak End Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end_rule System 1 “Automatic”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow System 2 “Deliberate”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow   Musical Links Donna Summer “I Feel Love”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm-ISatLDG0 Cecilia Chorus: http://ceciliachorusny.org/

In this grooving session, Kurt and Tim share how to conduct a behavioral diagnosis. A behavioral diagnosis is a tool we use to uncover the underlying drivers of behavior inside an organization to bring about meaningful change, all with the use of applied behavioral science. Kurt and Tim have been conducting behavioral diagnoses for many years and have found that leaders often don’t understand why their employees behave the way they do – particularly when it comes to employees response to changes in the workplace.  Leaders all too often expect announcements of corporate changes will be met by rational responses from the employees. However, people are not always rational, and to make things more difficult, don’t understand their own motivational drives. This renders surveys and employee satisfaction studies irrelevant because theses tools don’t get to the heart of the behavioral beast. In order understand the drivers of employee behavior, you must go below the surface. That’s where the behavioral diagnosis comes in. The process of a behavioral diagnostic varies from situation to situation, but typically begins with identifying the key strategic objectives through interview key stakeholders (leadership, typically). Then we research the status quo: what is the culture, what programs are in place, what are the current behaviors of the employees and why are they doing those things? Next we conduct interviews and/or focus groups to get at the underlying motivational drives of the employees. After a complete analysis of trends and available data, Kurt and Tim make recommendations to the leaders and develop interventions to bring about change. If you’re interested in learning more about a Behavioral Diagnosis for your organization, please contact us so we can start a conversation. © 2020 Behavioral Grooves Kurt Nelson: @WhatMotivates Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan Links “A Battle Between Sales & Marketing” by Tim Houlihan: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/the-battle-between-sales-and-marketing

Kurt and Tim are producing a new podcast called Weekly Grooves, launching January 31, 2020. Weekly Grooves is the weekly podcast that offers insights into the headlines through a behavioral lens. Kurt and Tim will be applying their more than 40 years of combined experience in behavioral work to give the headlines more relevance and meaning. We are going to put more meat in your sauce! Check it on Podbean or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. We want YOU to be one of first the Weekly Grooves listeners. And we're giving away a prize to the FIRST person who emails us, tweets us or sends us a message on LinkedIn stating that they listened to Weekly Grooves.  We hope you enjoy!

Stephen Martin and Joe Marks, PhD dive deep into one of the most important eye-openers about communication in our world today: the importance of WHO delivers the message. Their book, “Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don’t, and Why,” is a major revamp on the claim made by Marshall McLuhan in 1964 that, “The Medium IS the Message.” While Steve and Joe are hard-pressed to say McLuhan’s refrain is dead, it’s being outsized by a more contemporary and relevant one: “The Messenger IS the Message.” In our conversation with Steve and Joe, we discussed the way they’ve broken down their research and organized their book. The first section is on what they refer to as Hard Messenger Traits: Socio-Economic Position, Competence, Dominance, and Attractiveness. The second section works its way through the Soft Messenger Traits: Warmth, Vulnerability, Trustworthiness, and Charisma.  Their comments deconstruct how motivated reasoning is more than just aligning our tolerance for untruth with our desires; more importantly, it’s an alignment with the person who is expressing our desires. To illustrate this point, they asked UK voters if they thought that Boris Johnson lied about Brexit. Seventy-five percent agreed that he did. Then the researchers asked if the voters still considered Johnson trustworthy. For “Leavers,” the lies no impact on his trustworthiness. He wasn’t tainted because his lies served the voters’ underlying goals. While there are decades of psychological research on the impact the messenger has on the message, no one has synthesized it into a single narrative as Joe and Steve have. It’s an excellent read and we found our discussion with them filled with anecdotal gems and slightly uncomfortable laughter. It’s also worth noting that Steve is a co-author with Robert Cialdini, PhD on several great papers their groundbreaking book on persuasion. We hope you enjoy our conversation with Joe and Steve.  © 2020 Behavioral Grooves    Links Stephen Martin, PhD: @scienceofyes Joe Marks, PhD: @joemarks13 “Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don’t, and Why”: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/43522604 Robert Cialdini, PhD: https://www.robertcialdinibf.com/ “YES: 50 Scientifically Proven Ways to Be Persuasive”: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2208661.Yes_?from_search=true&qid=Tk8IuivDSr&rank=1 John Henry Marks, MD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marks_(doctor) “I’m not a doctor, but I play one on TV”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts0XG6qDIco   Musical Links Bettye Swann: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8iSfknnMfc Otis Redding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTVjnBo96Ug Prince: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXJhDltzYVQ ELO “Electric Light Orchestra”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQUlA8Hcv4s The Beatles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_ZzBGPdqE New Order: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYH8DsU2WCk The Baseballs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM2177pHMT0 Joy Division: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dBt3mJtgJc Ed Sheeran: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymjNGjuBCTo Adel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08DjMT-qR9g Aretha Franklin “Think”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqYnevHibaI Aretha Franklin “Respect”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOUqQt3Kg0 Right Said Fred “I’m Too Sexy”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ AC/DC “Back in Black”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoMLhnvV-yM

Melina Palmer is the host of The Brainy Business podcast and she has dedicated her career to seeking answers to these questions for herself and her clients. Melina uses behavioral economics to help everyone from global corporations to entrepreneurs understand the psychology of why people buy, unlocking the secrets of small changes that make a big difference via her podcast, public speaking, and column on Inc.com. The result is messaging, branding, advertisements, pricing and products that are more “brain-friendly” (meaning more leads, conversions, and revenue). Our conversation with Melina covered the anchoring effect and what a powerful tool it can be for both sellers and buyers alike. We also chatted about her John Mayer playlist on Pandora and some of the things she’s doing to make the world a better place through the education of behavioral economics and neuroscience. Kurt and Tim are also announcing our newest podcast, Weekly Grooves, which will be launching shortly, and we hope you’ll check it out. Groove idea for the week: What are you doing to integrate the anchoring effect into your business or your personal life? © 2020 Behavioral Grooves   Links Brainy Business Website: https://www.thebrainybusiness.com Melina’s INC.com articles: https://www.inc.com/author/melina-palmer Melina’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thebrainybiz/ Melina’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thebrainybiz/ Melina’s YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thebrainybusiness Melina’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/thebrainybiz Melina’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melina-palmer-36ab8712/ Melina’s John Mayer Playlist: https://pandora.app.link/UrWQ28B6l3 Anchoring Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring Decoy Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoy_effect Ran Kivetz, PhD: https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/cbs-directory/detail/rk566 Katy Milkman’s Fresh Start Habit: https://magazine.wharton.upenn.edu/digital/katherine-milkmans-fresh-start-study-becomes-perennial-media-favorite/ Counterfactual Thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_thinking Seattle Mariners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Mariners Audacity (digital audio workstation): https://www.audacityteam.org/ George Loewenstein, PhD: https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/people/faculty/george-loewenstein.html    Musical Links Gene Autry “Back in the Saddle”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSqcxFGFVas John Mayer: https://www.johnmayer.com/ Michael Bublé: https://www.michaelbuble.com/ Lady Antebellum: https://www.ladyantebellum.com/ Miranda Lambert: https://www.mirandalambert.com/ Patsy Cline: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patsy_Cline Christina Perri: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Perri US National Anthem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner Tom Petty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Petty Damien Rice: https://damienrice.com/ Red Hot Chili Peppers: https://redhotchilipeppers.com/ Ella Fitzgerald “Mac the Knife: Ella in Berlin 1960”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR1__k-BxhY Steely Dan “Gaucho”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaucho_(album) Beatles “Abbey Road”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_Road Beatles “Sargent Pepper”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgt._Pepper%27s_Lonely_Hearts_Club_Band Iron & Wine: http://ironandwine.com/ Dessa: https://www.dessawander.com/