
Boundaryless Conversations Podcast
Boundaryless Conversations Podcast is an ongoing exploration of the future of Platforms & Ecosystems.
Here we explore new perspectives about how we organise at scale in a rapidly changing world.
From Boundaryless SRL
Hosted by Simone Cicero and Shruthi Prakash
Latest episodes

Jun 8, 2020 • 1h 4min
Ep.13 Martin Revees - Remaking the Case for Strategy in an Interdependent World
In this episode, Simone Cicero is again joined by a special co-host and former guest on the podcast — Bill Fischer — Professor of Innovation Management at IMD Business School in Lausanne.
They talk to Martin Reeves, Managing Director in the San Francisco office of BCG and Chairman of the BCG Henderson Institute, BCG’s think tank on business strategy and co-author of the book “Your Strategy Needs a Strategy”. Martin is also currently leading research on the post-COVID era, winning the ’20s, competing on imagination, corporate vitality, purpose of purpose, strategy and artificial intelligence, competing on the rate of learning, diversity and performance, innovation strategy, organizational vitality and the humanity of corporations.
The conversation takes a deep dive into what it means for a business to become “ecosystemic” and compete in the 2020s, and about the bankruptcy of the current ways of doing “strategy” in a world in deep and continuous transformation. Martin also speaks widely about the renewed importance of imagination in organizations and about the need to compete on the rate of learning, combining human ingenuity with the power of machines and much more.
Read our story on Medium to access our key insights and the interview transcript for the episode.
Here are some important links from the conversation:
To find out more about Martin’s work
> https://twitter.com/MartinKReeves
> Your Strategy Needs a Strategy by Martin Reeves, Knut Haanæs, and Janmejaya Sinha: https://www.bcg.com/publications/collections/your-strategy-needs-strategy/intro.aspx
References and mentions
> Martin Reeves, Fortune 50, October 2019. “How the Fortune Future 50 identifies companies with long-term growth potential”: https://fortune.com/2019/10/21/future-50-best-stocks-for-long-term-growth-2019/
> Martin Reeves, Ming Zeng and Amin Venjara, HBR, June 2015. “The Self-tuning enterprise”: https://hbr.org/2015/06/the-self-tuning-enterprise
> Adam M. Brandenburger, Barry J. Nalebuff, Co-Opetition: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0385479506/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_U_x_cHC3Eb88TT1DN
Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast
Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio find his portfolio here: www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/music
Recorded on May 18th 2020

Jun 1, 2020 • 1h 8min
Ep 12. Alex Osterwalder - Unleashing thoughtful Innovation at Scale
In this episode, Simone Cicero is joined by a special co-host and former guest on the podcast - Bill Fischer - Professor of Innovation Management at IMD Business School in Lausanne.
Together they pick the brain of nobody less than Alex Osterwalder, whose work continues to influence the way established companies do business innovation and how new ventures get started. The inventor of the Business Model Canvas, Value Proposition Canvas, and Business Portfolio Map together with Yves Pigneur, Alex just released a new book called The Invincible Company, whose ideas are mentioned throughout the conversation.
Alex talks about why, in the furiously changing world of today, innovation portfolio management is a must, as well as transforming innovation into a pervasive process inside the organization: we also debate a lot on the several ways to do it.
We also talk about the responsibility of companies to become great workplaces - being able to keep and reallocate talent across business units - and serve society beyond shareholder interests. Enjoy this jam full episode!
Read our story on Medium to access our key insights and the interview transcript.
Here are some important links from the conversation:
> About Alex Osterwalder and his work:
> Alexander Osterwalder (Author), Yves Pigneur, Alan Smith, Frederic Etiemble, The Invincible Company: https://www.amazon.com/Invincible-Company-Alexander-Osterwalder/dp/1119523966
> Strategyzer: https://www.strategyzer.com/
Other mentions and references:
> Ritha McGrath, “Transient Advantage”, HBR, 06/2013: https://hbr.org/2013/06/transient-advantage
> Scott Anthony, “Breaking down the barriers to innovation”, HBR, 11/2019: https://hbr.org/2019/11/breaking-down-the-barriers-to-innovation
> Ritha McGrath, Seeing around Corners, interview with Aperture: https://medium.com/aperture-hub/seeing-around-corners-19-ec64b2260337
> All Things Marketplaces with Dan Hockenmaier, Casey Winters, and Lenny Rachitsky,
> Village Global's Venture Stories: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/all-things-marketplaces-dan-hockenmaier-casey-winters/id1316769266?i=1000467536947
Companies mentioned: Amazon, Ping An, W.L. Gore, Logitech, Kodak, Haier
Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at: www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast
Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio find his portfolio here: www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/music
Recorded on May 11th 2020

May 25, 2020 • 57min
Ep. 11 Joost Minnar - Tackling the Fundamental Problems of Organising at Scale
In this episode, we talk to Joost Minnaar, co-founder of the blog Corporate-Rebels.com in 2015. Joost travels the world researching progressive organisations, blogs about the discoveries he makes and advises on workplace issues. Joost is the co-author of the book 'Corporate Rebels, Make Work More Fun' (2020), winner of the Thinkers50 Radar Award (2019) and a Doctoral Candidate at the Amsterdam Business Research Institute (VU University, Amsterdam). We also have the pleasure to collaborate with Joost and his colleagues in our work on the Haier Group model (check-up our upcoming webinar: https://platformdesigntoolkit.com/adopting-haier-model-webinar/).
In our conversation with Joost, we get quite practical about the three “fundamental problems” of organising at scale, as he frames it, and how organisations tackle them. We loved how this episode helped us nail down some key thoughts into discernable patterns, drawing on Joost's rich library of experiences from researching so many great organisations.
Read our Medium publication to access our key insights and the interview transcript.
Here are some important links from the conversation:
Work by Joost and Corporate Rebels:
> Corporate Rebels Blog: https://corporate-rebels.com/
> Joost Minnaar on Twitter: https://twitter.com/joost_minnaar
>Joost Minnaar, Corporate Rebels, “Solving Organizational Complexity With Simplicity”:
https://corporate-rebels.com/how-fast-can-you-scale/
> Joost Minnaar, Corporate Rebels. “How To Organize A Large Company Without Middle Management”: https://corporate-rebels.com/how-to-organize-a-large-organization-without-middle-management/
> Pim de Morree, Corporate Rebels, “A Radical And Proven Approach To Self-Management” (Ner Group), https://corporate-rebels.com/ner-group
Other mentions and references
> Geoffrey West, Scale: The Universal Laws of Growth, Innovation, Sustainability, and the Pace of Life in Organisms, Cities, Economies, and Companies: https://www.amazon.com/Scale-Universal-Innovation-Sustainability-Organisms/dp/1594205582
> Geoffrey West profile https://www.santafe.edu/people/profile/geoffrey-west
> Principle of least action, http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Principle_of_least_action
> Deborah Frieze, From Scaling Up to Scaling Across: https://medium.com/in-praise-of-scaling-down/from-scaling-up-to-scaling-across-ed5092acd22f
Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast
Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio find his portfolio here: https://audiojungle.net/user/liosound/portfolio?utf8=%E2%9C%93&order_by=sales
Recorded on May 4th 2020

44 snips
May 18, 2020 • 1h 15min
Ep. 10 Indy Johar - Redrawing the Human Development thesis for the 21st Century
In this boundaryless conversation we speak with Indy Johar, architect and co-founder of Project 00 and most recently Dark Matter Labs (see his full bio here: https://about.me/indy.johar).
Indy is really a great thinker when it comes to going beyond “corner shop” size social transformation initiatives to explore the next generation of institutions - living at the edge between public, open and private.
We explore what he thinks will happen to organising, institution-building and human potential, as we move beyond an information age towards an era where building capabilities for antifragile institutions is key.
Find out more about Indy and his work:
>About Indy Johar, https://about.me/indy.johar
> Dark Matter Labs and its distributed team: https://darkmatterlabs.org/Team
> Dark Matter Labs collaboration with EIT Climate-KIC on Longtermism: Reorienting mindsets towards long-term thinking and acting: https://darkmatterlabs.org/Longtermism-Reorienting-mindsets-towards-long-term-thinking-and-acting
> Medium series of Longtermism, https://medium.com/futures-in-long-termism/futures-in-long-termism-95f64710f9b2
> “Letters from Amsterdam” on how they’re organised: https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/amsterdam-2019-2020-letter-to-our-future-dbd67a035ffe
> Indy Johar, Good work is the answer…: https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/there-is-nothing-wrong-with-the-consumer-society-as-an-idea-3c408b17ce
> Trees as Infrastructure, https://darkmatterlabs.org/Trees-as-Infrastructure-Rewilding-urban-forests
Other Mentions and References:
> John Vervaeke, Ep. 1 - Awakening from the Meaning Crisis - Introduction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54l8_ewcOlY
> Danny Dorling, Slowdown (2020): The End of the Great Acceleration—and Why It's Good for the Planet, the Economy, and Our Lives: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B086LK5KSL/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
Music by liosound.Recorded on April 29th

May 11, 2020 • 1h 3min
Ep. 09 Daniel Wahl - Organizing in Nested Systems: Re-regionalisation, Landscape and Global Solidarity
In our conversation with Daniel, we talk about the interplays between technology and landscape, between the virtual and the analogue world, and we explore what kind of new experiments and institutions that may emerge — and what new constituencies will likely gain a key role in organising at scale — for the re-regionalisation of the economy, which is such an important step of society’s regeneration.
How to find and support Daniel’s work:
> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@designforsustainability > Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/DanielChristianWahl?fan_landing=true > Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrDCWahl > LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-christian-wahl-phd-51a54616/ > Regeneration rising Youtube conversations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zBxHnVsuus > Facebook groups: https://www.facebook.com/regenerativecultures/, https://www.facebook.com/Ecological-Consciousness-567337650286414/, https://www.facebook.com/groups/920150431523616/about/ Mentions and references:> Daniel Wahl, Midwives of the Regeneration: On the fertile edges of the more beautiful world, https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/midwives-of-the-regeneration-on-the-fertile-edges-of-the-more-beautiful-world-4a28a9c6496f > Daniel Wahl, Salutogenic Cities & Bioregional Regeneration (Part I of II), https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/salutogenic-cities-bioregional-regeneration-part-i-of-ii-2772a13bad9a > Jung’s cognitive functions, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions > Joanna Macy, https://www.joannamacy.net/main > Janine Benyus: “life creates conditions conducive to life”, https://www.ted.com/talks/janine_benyus_biomimicry_s_surprising_lessons_from_nature_s_engineers/transcript?language=en > Ecolise: https://www.ecolise.eu/ > Planetary Health Alliance, https://www.planetaryhealthalliance.org/mission > Wendell Berry, The Unsettling of America: Culture and Agriculture, https://www.amazon.com/Unsettling-America-Culture-Agriculture/dp/0871568772 > Regenesis Group: https://regenesisgroup.com/ > Bayo Akomolafe: “times are urgent so let’s slow down” http://bayoakomolafe.net/project/the-times-are-urgent-lets-slow-down/ > Rebel Wison, Sense-Making the Coronavirus outbreak, with Jamie Wheal, Diane Musho Hamilton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKDWmKL7xCk > Yuk Hui, Cosmotechnics as Cosmopolistics, https://www.e-flux.com/journal/86/161887/cosmotechnics-as-cosmopolitics/ > Thích Nhất Hạnh (interbeing): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Nh%E1%BA%A5t_H%E1%BA%A1nh
Music by liosound.Recorded on April 06th

May 7, 2020 • 1h 2min
Checkpoint episode with Lisa Gansky - Ecosystems: between the "no more" and the "not yet"
This is a “checkpoint” episode where we talk to Lisa about what we’ve been discovering so far in the research for the Whitepaper and get her valuable take focusing on the role of incumbents in adapting to a fast-changing world. She talks about the emerging space between the “no more” and “not yet”. In this in-between space where most of the potential to re-invent organizing seems to lay, ecosystems appear to be a candidate driver of transformation for incumbents, although questions abound regarding their maturity.
> Follow Lisa Gansky on Twitter: https://twitter.com/instigating
> Subscribe to “Instigate this” curated by Lisa: https://paper.li/instigating?edition_id=1f138460-82ac-11ea-a01c-0cc47a0d1605#/
Some references mentioned in the show:
> Marc Andreesen, “It’s time to build”, https://a16z.com/2020/04/18/its-time-to-build/
> Slavoj Zizek on Coronavirus: "Things will not go back to normal", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfWIMPredyI&feature=youtu.be
> Ichak Adizes, Organisational Life Cycle: https://adizes.com/lifecycle/
> Reporting 3.0 “Maturation Matrix”: https://medium.com/@r3dot0/introducing-the-r3-0-maturation-matrix-6652047a0ba8
Music by liosound.Recorded on April 20th

May 4, 2020 • 56min
Ep. 08 Stowe Boyd - Ecosystemic Organizations and the Future of Work
Stowe describes his calling as “the ecology of work and the anthropology of the future”. He’s founder of Work Futures, where he explores critical themes of the future of work, and top writer in Economics, Leadership and Futures on Medium. He also writes extensively about work technologies and serves as a Gigaom editor.
In our conversation, we talk about how platforms contribute to changing the relationship between consumers and producers and how this — in turn — leads to re-shaping organizations, as firms optimize for a low transaction cost economy. We also talk about fairness and the importance of distributed governance to be transparent and reliable, allowing the players in an ecosystem to operate without constantly “covering their backs”.
How to find Stowe Boyd and his work:
> Medium: https://medium.com/@stoweboyd
> Work Futures: https://workfutures.org/
Mentions and references:
> Rent the Runway: https://www.renttherunway.com/
> Amoeba Management | Management Philosophy | KYOCERA, https://global.kyocera.com/philosophy/amoeba.html
> Stanley McChrystal, Chris Fussell, Tantum Collins, David Silverman (2015): Team of Teams: New Rules of Engagement for a Complex Worldhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22529127-team-of-teams
> Carlota Perez social and economic impact of technical change (including S curves): http://www.carlotaperez.org/
>Follow the work of Ben Evans and Ben Thompson: https://www.ben-evans.com/newsletter; https://stratechery.com/
> "In all chaos, there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order." - Carl Jung, https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/carl_jung_157280
> Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic and Cindy Gallop in HBR on female leadership https://hbr.org/2020/04/7-leadership-lessons-men-can-learn-from-women
> Participatory City: http://www.participatorycity.org/about
Music by liosound.Recorded on April 3rd 2020

Apr 27, 2020 • 1h 3min
Ep. 07 Bill Fischer - Leadership as Architecting: Transforming Organisations into Thriving Ecosystems
Bill Fischer, a Professor of Innovation Management at IMD Business School, dives into the transformative power of organizational models. He discusses the Haier Group's entrepreneurial culture and how it contrasts with traditional corporate structures. The conversation covers the necessity of decentralized decision-making and the evolution of middle management towards flat structures. Fischer emphasizes the importance of fostering strong relationships and a creative work environment to navigate uncertainties and drive innovation in today's dynamic landscape.

Apr 20, 2020 • 1h 3min
Ep. 06 Michel Bauwens - Commons-based peer production at the edge of a chaotic transition
Michel Bauwens, founder of the P2P Foundation and research director of CommonsTransition.org, dives into the fascinating shift from traditional societal structures to commons-based peer production. He discusses the historical cycles of extraction and regeneration, emphasizing the need for sustainable practices in response to capitalism's challenges. The conversation touches on local and global connections, innovative governance models, and the role of emerging technologies in fostering community resilience. Bauwens advocates for gradual change, highlighting the importance of personal transformation in this transition.

Apr 13, 2020 • 39min
Ep. 05 Ana Andjelic - Brands in transition: the sociology of ecosystems
In this engaging discussion, Ana Andjelic, a Strategy Executive and Doctor of Sociology, delves into the evolving dynamics between brands and consumers. She emphasizes the growing importance of empathy and social responsibility, especially post-COVID-19. The conversation also tackles how technology can enhance, but not replace, human connections in branding. Ana explores the rise of community-driven brands and the need for sustainable practices that resonate with modern values, highlighting the balance between local and global influences on consumer behavior.