Valley of Depth

Two weeks ago, we launched Payload Research, a new division within Payload dedicated to providing incisive, insight-driven analysis tailored for industry leaders and investors. Today, we welcome Jack Kuhr, the esteemed Research Director of Payload, to go under the hood of our new venture. We explore the motivations behind its inception and offer a glimpse into what the future holds. In addition, they discuss:The Starship Report: This is Payload Research's inaugural publication, offering comprehensive insights into SpaceX’s heavy lift launch vehicleSpaceX’s 2023 Financial Overview: An in-depth analysis of SpaceX's financial performance in 2023, including a detailed breakdown of its revenue and the methodology employed by our team • Chapters •00:00 - Intro00:36 - Jack's history with Payload04:14 - Why are we building Payload Research?10:34 - The Starship Report15:58 - When will we see Starship commercial payloads?20:12 - Starship cost-analysis27:35 - What is Starbase like?30:13 - SpaceX’s 2023 financials33:18 - Launch assumptions34:52 - Starlink assumptions39:38 - SpaceX’s Other revenue42:44 - Payload's next research newsletter43:18 - What should people expect from future Payload research editions?44:50 - What is Jack looking forward to covering the most this year?46:18 - How to sign up • Show notes •The Starship Report — https://payloadspace.com/starship-report/Payload Research’s website — https://www.payloadspace.com/researchJack’s socials —https://twitter.com/JackKuhrMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 15,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing three media properties across multiple platforms:1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern (https://newsletter.payloadspace.com/)2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)3) Parallax, our weekly space science briefing, hits inboxes Thursday (https://parallax.payloadspace.com/)

Our guest this week is Malory McLemore, the co-founder and CEO of Stell, an LA-based startup that is building workflow software to serve as the future data layer for hardware and industrials. Their platform enables complex, multi-company hardware development efforts to track engineering and compliance documentation, replacing traditional methods like Excel sheets and PDFs.Malory shares her journey from being an aerospace engineer dealing with subpar software tooling to founding Stell. In addition, we discuss:Stell’s origin story and fundraising plansDifferentiating engineering toolsApollo-era systems engineeringThe next generation of post-MBA graduatesAnd much more… • Chapters •00:00 - Intro00:48 - What is Stell?01:44 - Malory's career arc in the space industry05:19 - Why are  Harvard students becoming more interested in space?06:37 - Malory's previous jobs that led her to Stell today07:49 - How could aircraft like Boeing's latest be improved?10:53 - How have companies operated in the past and why should they work with Stell?12:38 - Current offerings and roadmap14:19 - Stell's business model14:55 - What does the ideal Stell customer look like?15:50 - Stell's selling point16:45 - How do you quantify money savings to a client18:33 - Government clients20:39 - How did Stella build the team22:36 - Plans for expanding beyond aerospace23:28 - How do you differentiate among other engineering management tools?26:51 - Do you think that this looks from other companies, but we’re headed to start to look similar?29:45 - Current fundraising plans30:06 - Grand vision to investors31:41 - What kicked off the growth of hard tech startups?33:23 - What would Malory be working on if it weren't for Stell?33:56 - Apollo-era management37:26 - What does the startup community look like in Huntsville?38:32 - Was building in LA the best decision you've made? Stell's website — https://www.stell-engineering.com/Stell's socials — https://twitter.com/stell_spaceMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes• About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 15,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing three media properties across multiple platforms:1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern (https://newsletter.payloadspace.com/)2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)3) Parallax, our weekly space science briefing, hits inboxes Thursday (https://parallax.payloadspace.com/)

Our guest this week, Tim Kienberger, has been at the forefront of the industry's evolution from large-scale satellite buses to the small satellite revolution. As the current CEO of LeoStella, a joint venture between Thales Alenia Space and BlackSky, he is helping the company redefine small satellite manufacturing.In today's episode, Tim reveals insights into the production of small satellites and the unique challenges of managing a joint venture. In addition, we discuss:LeoStella’s origin storyCislunar spacecraft needsThe impact of Starship on small satellitesScaling challenges of small sat startupsAnd much more…• Chapters •00:00 - Introduction00:22 - Tim's career overview02:40 - Thales/Blacksky JV06:56 - Core offerings and customer makeup09:01 - Current demand12:19 - Product roadmap14:03 - Capability needs from LEO to cislunar17:53 - Government customers19:50 - Balancing customization vs standardization23:18 - Production hurdles26:16 - Competitive landscape27:36 - Challenges for new startups31:32 - Impact of Starship on the small sat market40:18 - Long-term funding needs42:19 - What would Tim be doing if he wasn't in the space industry• Show notes •LeoStella's website — https://leostella.com/LeoStella's socials — https://twitter.com/LeoStellaLLCMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes• About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 15,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world. Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers.Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing three media properties across multiple platforms: 1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern (https://newsletter.payloadspace.com/) 2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com) 3) Polaris, our weekly policy publication, hits inboxes Tuesday (https://polaris.payloadspace.com/) 4) Parallax, our weekly space science briefing, hits inboxes Thursday (https://parallax.payloadspace.com/)

Daniel Faber, CEO of Orbit Fab, discusses in-space refueling infrastructure, the economics of fuel depots, viability of asteroid mining, contracting with the DoD, partnership with Astroscale, competition in the satellite servicing industry, and fundraising challenges in the space economy.

In the final Pathfinder episode of the year, Mo brings Payload’s editorial staff into the hot seat(s) to discuss the most significant stories of 2023 and share predictions for 2024!In addition to each team member’s trajectory to Payload, we discuss:The shortage in launch supplyStarship and the mainstream media’s reactionThe Chandrayaan-3 lunar landing (and other Moon-related news)The state of space companies in public marketsOrbital debris and the evolution of policyThe evolution of DoD vs NASA budgetsAnd much more…This episode is brought to you by SpiderOak, a US-based software company that builds space cybersecurity products and solutions for civilian, military, and commercial space operations. Learn more at https://spideroak.com/• Chapters •00:00 - Intro & SpiderOak Ad01:31 - Rachael + Payload04:24 - Jacqueline + Payload05:56 - Jack + Payload09:19 - Jack's Top Story of the Year10:29 - Jacqueline's Top Story of the Year13:28 - Rachael's Top Story of the Year15:01 - Why is it still so hard on the Moon?17:42 - The launch shortage22:21 - Media coverage around Starship29:30 - Is the market spot on with Where Space Companies Should Be Trading?32:20 - Jack's analysis on companies' cash flow34:00 - SpiderOak Ad Break34:47 - Jacqueline's policy stories38:07 - Orbital debris40:56 - Space tugging and de-orbiting market44:14 - The Kessler Syndrome46:35 - Why does the Space Force have a bigger budget than NASA?50:01 - Jacqueline's predictions52:11 - Why Jacqueline believes 2024 is the year for debris53:13 - Rachael's predictions54:46 - Timing of the first commercial Moon landing55:48 - Moon vs Mars58:03 - Jack's predictions59:29 - ULA buyers01:01:58 - Jack's favorite space TV show/book01:03:01 - Rachael's favorite space TV show/book01:03:29 - Jacqueline's favorite space TV show/book• Show notes •Jacqueline's socials — https://twitter.com/jacqfeldscherRachael's socials — https://twitter.com/RachaelZiskJack's socials — https://twitter.com/JackKuhrPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes• About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 15,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world. Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers.Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing three media properties across multiple platforms: 1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern (https://newsletter.payloadspace.com/) 2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com) 3) Polaris, our weekly policy publication, hits inboxes Tuesday (https://polaris.payloadspace.com/) 4) Parallax, our weekly space science briefing, hits inboxes Thursday (https://parallax.payloadspace.com/)

Every quarter, Lux Capital, a leading venture capital firm known for investing in hard science and deep tech startups, publishes their investor letter offering a unique opportunity to gain insight into the firm's investment thesis and strategy. The firm has been an early supporter of the space industry with early bets in companies like Relativity Space, Epsilon3, Impulse Space, Astranis, Kymeta, Varda, Planet, and Hadrian.This week’s Pathfinder features a deep dive on the firm’s latest Q3 letter with General Partner Shahin Farshchi. In addition to Shahin’s own background, the conversation covers:Lux’s fundraise success having recently closed Lux 8, a $1.15B venture fundThe firm’s investment thesis emphasizing the importance of non-consensus hypothesesGeopolitical shifts and how they’re impacting long-term investingThe role of media and the importance of informative and nuanced reportingAnd much more…Lux's Q3 Investor Letter: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s5xiwjG9psi6xRQPsAcI-I7-g6k5Pe--/viewThis episode is brought to you by SpiderOak, a US-based software company that builds space cybersecurity products and solutions for civilian, military, and commercial space operations. Learn more at https://spideroak.com/ • Chapters •00:00 - Guest Intro & SpiderOak Ad01:18 - The Lux 8 fundraise02:33 - Shahin's background06:38 - How was Lux started10:10 - The firm’s structure11:48 - A&D over the next decade15:30 - Investment highlights17:35 - Geopolitical shifts19:57 - A look at American Dynamism23:41 - Do you need to be a scientist to be a deep tech investor?27:03 - A thesis-driven strategy33:05 - Advice for emerging managers39:11 - The role of media42:33 - Starship launch predictions43:17 - The second most valuable space company • Show notes •Lux's website — https://www.luxcapital.com/Lux's socials — https://twitter.com/Lux_CapitalShahin's socials — https://twitter.com/FarshchiMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 15,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world. Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers.Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing three media properties across multiple platforms: 1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern (https://newsletter.payloadspace.com/) 2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com) 3) Polaris, our weekly policy publication, hits inboxes Tuesday (https://polaris.payloadspace.com/) 4) Parallax, our weekly space science briefing, hits inboxes Thursday (https://parallax.payloadspace.com/)

Modern engineering teams need to look radically different, at least according to Pari Singh, Founder and CEO of Flow Engineering. Flow, a London and LA-based startup, aims to overhaul traditional engineering approaches with its collaboration platform, specifically tailored for 'new age' hardware teams.Flow provides a collaborative platform for hardware and software teams, streamlining requirements management, integrating with key design tools, and offering advanced visualization for efficient design and compliance.Mo and Pari’s conversations covers a wide array of topics, including:The Flow origin storyThe stagnation of hardware innovationHow systems engineering has evolvedThe ideal modern engineering teamBuilding in LondonAnd much more…This episode is brought to you by SpiderOak, a US-based software company that builds space cybersecurity products and solutions for civilian, military, and commercial space operations. Learn more at https://spideroak.com/ • Chapters •00:00 - Intro & SpiderOak ad01:11 - Flow: from rockets to software06:48 - Was the intention always software?08:12 - Hardware innovation stagnation09:32 - Flow's products today10:32 - New engineering management tools12:38 - Scaling space companies13:55 - Flow's business model14:39 - Other markets Flow is targeting15:40 - The go-to market strategy16:45 - How do you convince clients to adopt a new engineering process?19:29 - Flow's philosophy22:30 - SpiderOak ad break23:14 - Who makes up Flow's customer base?24:06 - The ideal Flow customer25:32 - How has systems engineering changed since the Apollo era?28:48 - What does a modern engineering team look like?33:12 - Will specialization create big enough markets?35:44 - Flow's financing round37:10 - Finance landscape for software companies building for hardware39:15 - What's it like building a team in London?39:58 - What does the world look like if every company is using Flow?42:10 - If Pari wasn't building Flow, what would he be building?42:55 - Companies that excite Pari44:20 - What London football team does Pari support? • Show notes •Flow's website — https://flowengineering.com/Flow's socials — https://twitter.com/flow_engineerPari's socials — https://twitter.com/paritheengineerMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 15,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world. Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers.Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing three media properties across multiple platforms: 1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern (https://newsletter.payloadspace.com/) 2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com) 3) Polaris, our weekly policy publication, hits inboxes Tuesday (https://polaris.payloadspace.com/) 4) Parallax, our weekly space science briefing, hits inboxes Thursday (https://parallax.payloadspace.com/)

The US manufacturing industry needs a major overhaul and companies like Machina Labs are helping drive that change. Today’s Pathfinder episode features Ed Mehr, cofounder and CEO of Machina Labs, a startup integrating the latest advancements in robotics and AI to construct next-generation factories. Mehr's prior experience at Relativity includes overseeing the development of Stargate, which was the world’s largest 3D printer at the time.Machina is focused on creating flexible manufacturing systems, where design and material changes can be made seamlessly without the need for extensive hardware alterations. This flexibility is primarily enabled by advanced robotics and AI, encapsulating Mehr's vision of an agile, responsive manufacturing environment. Machina’s flagship product, the "Robotic Craftsman," epitomizes this concept, combining the dexterity of human craftsmen with sophisticated machine learning algorithms.The conversation today delves into the challenges of traditional manufacturing and explores the impact of Machina’s innovations on the space industry. In addition, Ed and Mo discuss:Machina’s origin storyThe state of the US manufacturing industryCommon startup mistakes when building factoriesElon’s manufacturing algorithmAnd much more…This episode is brought to you by SpiderOak, a US-based software company that builds space cybersecurity products and solutions for civilian, military, and commercial space operations. Learn more at https://spideroak.com/• Chapters •00:00 - Intro & SpiderOak Ad 02:02 - What is Machina Labs? 03:07 - The Falcon 9 issue 05:26 - Key product offerings 08:05 - Origin of roboforming 09:16 - Machina’s roboforming 14:24 - Importance of manufacturing in the US 18:06 - Keynote of the business 20:10 - Industries of focus 24:57 - The business model 28:28 - SpiderOak Ad Break 29:15 - Measuring the market size 31:44 - The Machina team 33:12 - Partnership with Nvidia 34:49 - Common manufacturing mistakes 37:48 - Machina’s competition 41:23 - Machina Labs's place in the market 20 years from now 44:02 - Evolution of aerospace manufacturing in the next decade 45:37 - Favorite new manufacturing technologies• Show notes •Machina Lab's website — https://machinalabs.ai/ Machina Lab's socials — https://twitter.com/MachinaLabs_ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes• About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 15,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world. Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers.Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing three media properties across multiple platforms: 1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern (https://newsletter.payloadspace.com/) 2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com) 3) Polaris, our weekly policy publication, hits inboxes Tuesday (https://polaris.payloadspace.com/) 4) Parallax, our weekly space science briefing, hits inboxes Thursday (https://parallax.payloadspace.com/)

Hélène Huby, Europe's first privately funded cargo and crew capsule; Nyx vs. Starliner vs. Crew Dragon; Design challenges shifting from cargo to human; The business model; Building and R&D for a space station with and without government aid; The future of space stations and the role of commercial players.

Relativity Space CEO Tim Ellis knows what went wrong during Terran 1’s first flight—and he shared with Payload why he is confident the same thing won’t happen to the startup’s Terran R rocket.What’s next: After the March flight, Relativity announced that it was scrapping Terran 1 development to focus solely on its larger Terran R vehicle.Ellis emphasized that this shift is not merely about scaling size, but also better aligning with market demands ($1.8B Terran R pipeline) and the broader vision of the company.Overall R&D costs should be in the ballpark of ~$1B, Ellis estimated, adding that it is designed to be reusable from the start and carry 23,500 kg to LEO.Brand awareness: In an industry dealing with expensive, long-term projects (i.e., space), it's crucial to inspire and motivate people by focusing on high-effort, creative presentations, Ellis said. The aim is to make Relativity not just a rocket company but a brand that resonates with a broader audience. And music—particularly electronic music—plays a role in the brand's energy, reflecting Ellis's personal tastes.Listen to Pathfinder #0071 for more on Relativity’s future on Mars, whether there’s a rocket larger than Terran R in Relativity’s future, the long-term strategy for 3D printing, and much more.This episode is brought to you by SpiderOak, a US-based software company that builds space cybersecurity products and solutions for civilian, military, and commercial space operations. Learn more at https://spideroak.com/• Chapters •00:00 - Intro & SpiderOak Ad01:09 - The night of the Terran 1 launch05:11 - What went wrong?10:11 - Why not launch Terran 1 again?15:18 - Are investors okay pushing out an orbital proof point?20:38 - Terran R tech specs29:05 - SpiderOak Ad break29:52 - Milestones for Terran R34:31 - Terran R's manufacturing cadence at scale37:46 - Terran R R&D costs (vs Falcon 9)46:13 - 3D printing the Terran R51:34 - The future of 3D printing58:32 - Relativity's marketing strategy01:09:53 - Heavier than Terran R01:14:48 - Relativity & Mars01:15:22 - Tim's favorite musical artists• Show notes •Relativity's website — https://www.relativityspace.com/Relativity's socials — https://twitter.com/relativityspaceTim's socials — https://twitter.com/thetimellisMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes• About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 15,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world. Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers.Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing three media properties across multiple platforms: 1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern (https://newsletter.payloadspace.com/) 2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com) 3) Polaris, our weekly policy publication, hits inboxes Tuesday (https://polaris.payloadspace.com/) 4) Parallax, our weekly space science briefing, hits inboxes Thursday (https://parallax.payloadspace.com/)