Valley of Depth

This week on Pathfinder, we’re joined by Jeremiah Pate, founder and CEO of Lunasonde, a company pioneering subsurface imaging from space. Lunasonde is developing technology to map the Earth’s underground, leveraging low-frequency synthetic aperture radar (SAR) to identify critical minerals and resources.With two satellites launched and the first full-tech satellite in their constellation set to launch in July, this episode dives into how Lunasonde is reshaping resource exploration. We also discuss:Lunasonde’s founding story and Jeremiah’s inspiration for the companyThe fundamentals of subsurface SAR and how it differs from traditional radar technologiesThe company’s royalty-based business model and its potential to disrupt the critical minerals industryReal-world applications, including a breakthrough discovery of a previously unknown copper depositThe long-term vision for Lunasonde, including applications beyond Earth and mapping resources on the Moon and asteroidsInsights on the challenges of scaling a space startup and navigating regulatory barriersAnd more… • Chapters •00:00 Intro03:04 What is SAR?05:19 What is subsurface?06:29 Critical minerals and Lunasonde's approach to the market07:49 Size & demand10:20 System architecture11:28 Lunasonde's launches12:02 Interpreting SAR data13:27 SubSAR vs seismic imaging or ground penetrating radar15:25 Environmental reasons behind building subSAR16:22 How to ensure accuracy and reliability of the data17:08 Corona satellites20:48 How does Lunasonde convince ideal customers to embrace new technologies?22:48 Examples of discovering new deposits24:09 Lunasonde's competitors26:02 Why do people think subSAR is impossible?27:12 Going beyond the Earth28:39 Other revenue models30:27 Commercial vs government traction31:27 Is Lunasonde looking for partnerships with space mining startups?32:14 Scaling path33:09 Funding34:11 What keeps Jeremiah up at night?34:52 Long-term vision36:53 Could orgs like NASA use Lunasonde's capabilities for more intensive resource hunting missions?38:28 What would Jeremiah like to change in the space industry?40:51 If Jeremiah wasn't working at Lunasonde, where would he like to work? • Show notes •Lunasonde’s website — https://www.lunasonde.com/Lunasonde’s socials — https://x.com/Lunasonde/Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspacePathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on WednesdaysYou can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

This week on Pathfinder, we’re joined by Awais Ahmed, founder and CEO of Pixxel, a company focused on developing hyperspectral imaging technology from space. Pixxel is developing the world’s first commercial hyperspectral satellite constellation, aiming to provide detailed insights into critical industries like agriculture, energy, and defense.With the recent launch of three Firefly satellites—the first in Pixxel’s commercial fleet—this episode explores the company’s progress and vision for the future of Earth observation. We also discuss:Pixxel’s founding story and Awais’ background in satellite engineering and Hyperloop competitionsThe fundamentals of hyperspectral imaging and its advantages over traditional imaging methodsPixxel’s satellite constellation plans and how they’re balancing commercial and government marketsThe role of AI in satellite imaging and its potential to unlock new applicationsAwais’ take on the evolving Earth observation market and the challenges of scaling a space startupAnd more… • Chapters •00:00 - Intro00:48 - Impact of the new administration02:32 - The story behind Pixxel07:37 - Hyperspectral imaging11:14 - How hyperspectral fits into the other types of satellite imaging15:01 - How big is the satellite imaging market today?17:30 - Government uses and advancements in hyperspectral21:30 - Established commercial vs growing government markets25:23 - What does Pixxel's constellation look like?27:22 - Firefly vs Honeybee28:03 - Customer experience at Pixxel29:46 - AI's impact33:44 - Most valuable part of the EO stack36:05 - Starlink architecture and other EO businesses37:49 - Pixxel's commercial traction39:27 - What's a good margin profile?42:01 - Valuation of public EO businesses45:19 - Raising private capital in EO and fundraising plans48:37 - Pixxel in 203550:22 - What else excites Awais besides EO?51:29 - Pixxel's US office • Show notes •Pixxel’s website — https://www.pixxel.space/Pixxel’s socials — https://x.com/PixxelSpaceAwais’ socials — https://x.com/awaisahmednaMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspacePathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on WednesdaysYou can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

Adam Draper, founder of Boost VC, discusses his journey in venture capital and the family legacy in the space industry. He emphasizes the importance of backing 'impossible' ideas in deep tech and shares insights on evaluating committed founders. Adam delves into the unpredictability of space investments, highlighting the significance of storytelling and transparency in startups. He also speculates on the future of space and biopharma, including the intriguing possibility of discovering extraterrestrial life.

This week on Pathfinder, we’re ready to kick off 2025 with our first episode back from a brief holiday hiatus. Joining us is Stefan Powell, co-founder and CEO of Dawn Aerospace—a company focused on building scalable, sustainable space transportation solutions. After cutting their teeth with an in-space propulsion business, Dawn is now pushing the boundaries with Aurora, a rocket-powered plane that recently breaking the sound barrier (or Mach 1).In this episode, we explore:From Student Rocket Club to Thriving Venture: Stefan’s background and how his early rocketry experiences shaped Dawn’s mission.Satellite Propulsion: Why Dawn’s safer, scalable alternatives to traditional satellite fuel are gaining traction in the market—and how they enable near-term revenue.Aurora’s Breakthrough Flight: Hitting Mach 1.1, testing supersonic aerodynamics, and the path toward suborbital flight capabilities.Hypersonics & Beyond: Why government R&D and military programs are pouring billions into hypersonics research—and how Dawn plans to help solve the “access-to-test-time” gap.Aircraft-Like Space Access: Dawn’s long-term vision for truly rapid, reusable, runway-based vehicles that could revolutionize launch operations.Building for the Future, One Step at a Time: How Stefan thinks about scaling, capital efficiency, and bridging near-term commercial opportunities with an ambitious roadmap.…and much, more. • Chapters •00:00:00 - Intro00:01:45 - Founding Dawn00:06:33 - Core products00:08:52 - Sustainability00:11:25 - How Stefan got into the space industry00:16:20 - What Stefan is developing with Aurora00:19:09 - Recent flight00:20:38 - Why is it important to go past Mach 1?00:24:02 - Technical milestones before full orbital capabilities00:26:43 - Hypersonics and building commercial ability00:30:23 - Government customers00:31:39 - Opportunities in hypersonic weapons?00:33:02 - Payload capacity of first commercial launch vehicle00:33:58 - Long-term scaling goals00:37:15 - What is so difficult about building commercial hypersonic platforms?00:42:05 - Most significant hurdles when it comes to scaling and manufacturing00:44:32 - Building in New Zealand00:46:38 - Revenue mix00:48:15 - Capital efficiency00:51:47 - Effect of Starship on the launch market00:53:42 - What does success look like for Dawn over the next 10 years00:56:25 - What Stefan has learned about being a CEO/Founder for 15 years00:58:11 - Everything's on the table • Show notes •Dawn’s website — https://www.dawnaerospace.com/Dawn’s socials — https://x.com/DawnAerospaceStefan’s socials — https://x.com/Stefan__PowellMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspacePathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on WednesdaysYou can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

Join Joe Miller, President of BWXT Advanced Technologies, and Kerry Timmons, Senior Manager at Lockheed Martin, as they dive into the exciting future of lunar architecture powered by nuclear technology. They discuss how nuclear systems can provide reliable energy during the lunar night and the engineering challenges involved. Learn about the interplay between nuclear and solar energy and their vision for a thriving lunar economy, supported by collaborative efforts across various sectors. Plus, they explore advancements in nuclear propulsion that could revolutionize deep space travel.

Tim Cichan is a space exploration architect at Lockheed Martin, while Christie Iacomini is a senior program manager focused on lunar infrastructure technologies. They discuss the essential elements for establishing a sustainable lunar presence, including innovative power systems like vertical solar arrays and nuclear fission. The conversation highlights challenges in communications networks, the importance of in-situ resource utilization for water extraction, and the role of international collaboration in achieving long-term lunar sustainability.

This week on Pathfinder, we’re excited to bring you a special one-off episode, made possible by Astroscale U.S., the Denver-based subsidiary of Astroscale, a global provider of on-orbit servicing solutions. This episode dives into the DoD’s push to integrate commercial in-space servicing, assembly, and manufacturing (ISAM) capabilities to enhance flexibility, resilience, and sustainability in military space operations.Joining the discussion are retired Colonel Dennis Wille, Senior Director of Business Development for National Security at Astroscale US, and John “Patsy” Klein, Senior Fellow in Strategy at Falcon Research and a leading expert in space policy and strategy. Together, we unpack how ISAM technologies are transforming space operations and advancing U.S. leadership in the domain.This episode covers:The DoD’s commercial space integration strategy and ISAM’s role in enhancing operational resilienceThe challenges and opportunities of managing space debris and enabling active debris removalHow ISAM capabilities like refueling, repair, and inspection are reshaping spacecraft lifecyclesThe critical role of commercial partnerships in supporting national security objectivesThe future of space operations and the technologies poised to drive innovationAnd much, much more… • Chapters •00:00 - Intro04:12 - What is ISAM and why is it so important to the DoD's space strategy?06:08 - Patsy's role in commercial integration of ISAM08:49 - What is the DoD's commercial space strategy?10:57 - Astroscale's priorities14:53 - Why does the government care about debris removal?16:18 - Why does space junk removal help the US to maintain leadership in space?19:30 - PLEO and commercial opportunity22:49 - Tech capabilities being developed at Astroscale26:50 - Mature ISAM capabilities that we have today29:23 - Astroscale and DoD partnership31:07 - Government vs commercial customer makeup prediction32:19 - Policy/regulatory hurdles for ISAM34:17 - What will it take for commercial to become a bigger part of Astroscale's business?37:09 - Does ISAM have an education issue?39:18 - Technical gaps in ISAM40:50 - What technological advancements should we anticipate?42:24 - What defense strategies will ISAM create?45:06 - How Astroscale positions themselves against competitors47:59 - Advice for investors interested in ISAM49:28 - How can the US maintain their leadership role in space?51:53 - Book recommendations • Show notes •Astroscale’s website — hhttps://astroscale-us.com/Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspacePathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on WednesdaysYou can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

In this discussion, Alex MacDonald, NASA's Chief Economist, and Rob Chambers, Director of Strategy for Human Space Exploration at Lockheed Martin, delve into the future of lunar architecture. They explore the ambitious Artemis program and the shift towards sustainable lunar operations. The conversation highlights the role of international partnerships and innovative technologies like nuclear power. They also reflect on lessons from Apollo, the evolving lunar economy, and the vision for a human presence on the Moon and beyond.

Chris Morales, a former naval officer and current Partner at Point72 Ventures, discusses the intersection of venture capital and defense technology. He explains how the emergence of low Earth orbit architectures is reshaping the space economy. The conversation highlights the significant challenges startups face in this realm, such as financial barriers and government funding impacts. Chris also analyzes SpaceX's influence on market dynamics and the future of space colonization, emphasizing the importance of strategic investments for national security.

This week on Pathfinder, we’re excited to welcome the one and only Peter Beck, founder and CEO of Rocket Lab. Rocket Lab continues to solidify its position as a leading end-to-end space company, offering launch services, spacecraft platforms, and in-house satellite manufacturing.In light of Rocket Lab’s Q3 earnings report, which saw a 55% year-over-year revenue increase and a growing backlog of over $1B, this episode dives deep into the company’s strategic and operational decisions driving its success.In addition, we discuss:Rocket Lab’s journey from its early days to becoming the world’s third most frequent launch providerThe development of Neutron and its significance in addressing medium-class launch demandPeter’s philosophy on efficient engineering and capital allocationThe rise of Rocket Lab’s spacecraft business and its role in the company’s end-to-end space strategyInsights into launch market dynamics, from smallsat needs to Starship’s impact on the industryAnd much more... • Chapters •00:00 - Intro00:34 - Where is Peter Beck?01:20 - Space and the coming administration02:05 - Rocket Lab in the market and where they're going03:42 - Neutron's first launch04:24 - What's next after Neutron?05:41 - What will be the most dominant aspect of Rocket Lab in the future?07:10 - Hypersonics08:51 - Electron demand vs. supply10:02 - Electron after Neutron13:05 - Neutron's development timeline16:07 - How does Neutron compare to Falcon 9?17:20 - Neutron launch cadence18:12 - What leads to capital efficiency?21:03 - How Rocket Lab created successful projects23:04 - Aesthetics vs Engineering24:26 - SDA contract and de-risking25:23 - Why build both spacecraft and launch vehicles?27:33 - Why own and operate your own constellation?29:56 - DoD's proliferated LEO satellite services program30:40 - Frank Klein joining Rocket Lab31:50 - Operations and scaling philosophy33:25 - Outlook of the supply and demand for launch market35:13 - Is there still room for new launch startups?36:46 - Future of launch outside the US38:30 - Timeline on human spaceflight at Rocket Lab40:01 - Most strategic or technical risk that Rocket Lab currently faces41:14 - Rocket Lab and the Moon43:24 - Things to embrace in order to build a successful company44:30 - What keeps Peter up at night?45:16 - When will the space industry be welcomed by the public markets?49:20 - Things Peter is keeping an eye on51:03 - Date for humans on Moon and Mars • Show notes •Rocket Lab's website — https://www.rocketlabusa.com/Rocket Lab’s socials — https://x.com/RocketLabPeter's socials — https://x.com/Peter_J_BeckMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspacePathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on WednesdaysYou can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/