Valley of Depth

Even Rogers, CEO of True Anomaly and former Air Force weapons officer, discusses the urgent need for the U.S. to prepare for potential conflicts in space. He highlights a pivotal moment in 2007 that shifted the perception of space as a battleground. Even dives into the importance of advanced autonomous systems for defense and the role of both public and private sectors in innovation. He also addresses the strategic necessities for the Space Force and the complexities of missile defense, painting a picture of what space superiority truly means.

This week on Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Paul Lwin, co-founder and CEO of Havoc AI—a builder of integrated hardware, software, and logistics that enables collaborative, autonomous maritime operations. A former Navy test pilot and electronic warfare officer, Paul saw firsthand the strategic challenge posed by China’s industrial scale in the Pacific and set out to build an asymmetric answer.In this episode, Paul shares how Havoc went from pre-seed to delivering 40+ autonomous vessels in just 18 months, what it takes to deploy real autonomy in contested environments, and why the Navy forced them to sell their early prototypes. We also cover:Why Havoc built 12 USVs with just 5 people and a $1.2M pre-seedHow Ukraine’s naval tactics shifted the Pentagon’s mindsetThe difference between platform, mission, and decision autonomyWhy primes can’t match Havoc’s pace—or price pointHow Replicator changed the rules for startup engagement with DoDWhat it’ll take to get thousands of autonomous boats into the Pacific…and much more.Check out VoD #006 on…YouTube, Apple, or Spotify. • Chapters •0:00 - Intro1:07 - Company Mission & Vision3:43 - DoD Autonomous Exercise Demonstration6:41 - Funding to Demo Timeline8:43 - Founding Team & Headquarters10:19 - Market Demand for Autonomous Maritime Tech12:42 - Vertical Integration Strategy14:30 - US Navy Capability Gaps16:24 - Geopolitics & Business Strategy17:40 - Product Architecture Roadmap21:21 - Commercial Market Potential24:05 - Autonomy Level Achieved26:48 - Contested Environment Design28:24 - Next Frontier in Naval Tech30:04 - Scaling for DoD Requirements32:09 - Competitive Differentiation33:48 - Prime Contractor Advantages35:21 - Replicator Initiative Impact36:19 - Buyer Incentive Structures37:44 - Desired Policy Changes39:09 - Scaling Funding Requirements40:35 - Defining Mission Success • Show notes •Havoc’s socials — https://x.com/HavocAi_USVMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspaceIgnition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/ • About us •Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

This week on Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Marc Allen, CEO of Electra and former Chief Strategy Officer at Boeing. After nearly two decades at one of aerospace’s most iconic companies, Marc stepped away—and then doubled down—on aviation with a bold bet: a hybrid-electric aircraft that takes off in 150 feet, carries 1,000 pounds, and can land almost anywhere. In this episode, Marc breaks down why the future of flight is short-runway, low-noise, and mission-flexible—and how Electra’s EL-9 is carving out a new category of aircraft entirely. We also get into:Why hybrid-electric beats all-electricHow Electra won over DOD and NASAThe military’s growing demand for quiet, flexible airliftWhy rotorcraft are ripe for disruptionThe company’s $13B+ order bookAnd how Marc thinks about scaling from Boeing to startup • Chapters •0:00 - Episode Introduction0:58 - Marc's Transition: Boeing to Electra3:13 - Electric Propulsion Breakthrough Moment4:29 - Electra's Core Technology5:17 - Importance of Electric Aircraft6:52 - EL9 vs Helicopter Comparison7:30 - Safety Features10:06 - Automation Capabilities10:54 - Charging Infrastructure11:18 - Technology Maturity Level12:41 - EL9 Market Potential15:57 - Current Demand & Use Cases18:17 - Operator Economics20:20 - Air Force Partnership21:16 - Defense Applications23:43 - Autonomous Potential24:41 - Future Aircraft Versions26:08 - NASA's Interest26:47 - Civil vs Defense Models27:21 - Manufacturing Process29:15 - Certification Timeline31:32 - Key Challenges34:24 - Fundraising Status36:32 - Commercialization Costs38:00 - Upcoming Milestones38:24 - Team Size39:03 - Scaling From Large to Small Company41:15 - OEM Strategy41:50 - 10-Year Vision42:44 - Marc's Personal Interests43:40 - Pilot Training Requirements • Show notes •Electra’s socials — https://x.com/ElectraAeroMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspaceIgnition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/ • About us •Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

This week on Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Erik Kriessmann, Partner at Altimeter – the $10B crossover firm known for backing generational companies across tech, defense, and space. From sourcing early-stage deals to helping build world-class teams, Erik’s path into venture started with a deep focus on talent, giving him a rare edge in identifying high-potential founders and building lasting partnerships. In this episode, Erik shares how Altimeter thinks about concentrated investing, why the firm bets big on supercycles, and what it takes to earn a seat at the table with the best teams in tech. We also cover:How Altimeter defines a “supercycle”The firm’s bets across AI, defense, and aerospaceWhat separates a good founder from a great oneWhy Altimeter backed Anduril and K2His take on the Mars hype (spoiler: not yet)And how SpaceX changed the game for everyone…and much more. • Chapters •0:00 - Intro1:05 - Did Erik know he was going to be an investor?1:44 - Erik's career journey9:05 - Going from building talent teams to working with CEOs directly12:07 - The investment philosophy core to Altimeter's growth15:31 - Public vs private side of Altimeter16:42 - How decisions get made19:35 - What is today's super cycle?21:14 - What technologies is Altimeter currently excited about?22:40 - What does Erik look for in a founder?24:25 - How do geopolitics weigh in on Altimeter's investments?27:20 - Space super cycle28:56 - What is Erik on the lookout for in the space industry31:04 - How about Mars?33:42 - Why did Altimeter first invest in Anduril?36:09 - Navigating the DoD procurement process37:50 - Expanding margin with the government customer40:27 - Are we in a defense tech bubble?41:56 - Has Altimeter invested in pure play defense names outside of Anduril?44:03 - Exit paths for Altimeter's investments45:34 - Foreign defense investment opportunities47:34 - What would Erik be doing if he wasn't an investor?49:42 - What's Erik listening to these days? • Show notes •Erik’s socials — https://x.com/ekriessmannBrad’s socials — https://x.com/altcapMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspaceIgnition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/ • About us •Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

This week on Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Christian Garcia, Partner at Breakthrough Energy Ventures — the Bill Gates-backed climate fund investing in bold technologies to accelerate the energy transition across every sector of the economy. With portfolio companies tackling everything from geologic hydrogen to reusable rockets, BEV is redefining what it means to scale climate impact through hard tech. In this conversation, Christian shares how BEV thinks about breakthrough innovation, what makes a venture-backable climate solution, and why some of the most disruptive ideas look impossible—until they’re not. We also get into:BEV’s origin storyHow climate and national security are convergingThe firm’s approach to fusion, hydrogen, and aerospaceWhy BEV backed both CFS and Pacific FusionWhat drew Christian to space — and Stoke Space in particularAnd his take on what’s really being underestimated in climate today• Chapters •0:00 - Intro1:04 - What is Breakthrough Energy Ventures and how is it different from a typical fund?2:26 - BEV's investors and why are they interested5:45 - Is there a defense interest at BEV?9:00 - How did Christian get into this space?11:13 - What is BEV currently focused on?14:17 - What type of breakthrough is BEV investing in and when?17:16 - Firms BEV co-invests with18:34 - Seed and Pre-seed investing25:43 - What is the goal of investing in multiple fusion companies?30:23 - How does space fit in BEV's climate portfolio?34:23 - How do you separate bold vision from wishful thinking?38:03 - Balancing science and storytelling42:08 - Tech that Christian has passed on45:37 - A BEV company that Christian thinks will shock the world with its success48:48 - What are some common misconceptions about climate tech?51:28 - Rapidfire questions • Show notes •BEV’s website — https://www.breakthroughenergy.org/our-work/breakthrough-energy-ventures/BEV’s socials — https://x.com/BreakthroughMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspaceIgnition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/ • About us •Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

This week on Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Tejpaul Bhatia, the newly appointed CEO of Axiom Space — a company building one of the first commercial space stations and leading private human spaceflight missions to low Earth orbit. The company is gearing up for Ax-4, Axiom’s fourth mission to the ISS, which will fly astronauts from Poland, Hungary, and India under the command of Axiom astronaut Peggy Whitson. In his first interview (and podcast) as CEO, Tejpaul shares what the leadership transition means for Axiom, why he sees the company as a “forever business,” and how he plans to scale its station, suits, and astronaut programs into a thriving orbital economy. We also get into:Tejpaul’s journey from startup founder to Axiom CEOThe state of the space station market and the case for demandWhat investors misunderstand about orbital infrastructureAxiom’s shifting revenue mix and modular station roadmapHis take on the CLD program and U.S. industrial strategyHow Tejpaul thinks about scaling trust, culture, and ambition in space• Chapters •00:00 Intro00:59 Tejpaul's transition into the CEO role03:25 Tejpaul's background before Axiom08:03 Reaction to being offered CRO role10:50 Previous CEO's departure12:57 Preserving vs evolving at Axiom14:23 Initial priorities as CEO19:06 Free-flying space station market24:37 Number of future space station operators27:06 Science projects vs commercial viability32:44 Current and future revenue streams38:11 Commercial Low-Earth Orbit Destination (CLD)41:21 Moving beyond NASA dependence45:45 Technical roadmap47:19 Astronaut program pricing53:21 What investors miss about stations56:04 Capital requirements and fundraising01:00:07 Cost of first station01:01:35 Axiom & SpaceX relationship01:04:40 Tejpaul's personal interests • Show notes •Axiom’s website — https://axiomspace.com/Axiom’s socials — https://x.com/Axiom_SpaceMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspaceIgnition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear / https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/ • About us •Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Bryon Hargis is the co-founder and CEO of Castelion, a dynamic defense startup creating affordable hypersonic missile systems. In this conversation, he reflects on his transition from SpaceX and the cultural shifts shaping Castelion's innovative approach. He dives into the rising hypersonic threats posed by China, emphasizing the need for effective non-nuclear deterrence in today's geopolitical landscape. Hargis also discusses the challenges of military procurement and the importance of agile development in defense technology.

This week on Pathfinder, we’re joined by Ed Fyfe, founder of Ed Fyfe Design, a creative studio focused on branding and visual identity for space and hardware companies. With a background in agency work and a passion for the space industry, Ed has built a reputation for helping companies craft compelling brand identities that stand out in a crowded market.In this episode, we explore the role of branding and design in the space industry and why it’s more than just a logo—it’s a strategic asset. We also discuss:– Ed’s journey from working in consumer branding to launching his own space-focused design practice– The importance of branding for space companies and when founders should prioritize it– How SpaceX, NASA, and other major players have influenced space industry branding– Common branding mistakes in the sector and how to avoid them– The impact of branded hardware and creative storytelling in making space companies memorable– The role of brand partnerships and what makes a good collaborationAnd more… • Chapters •00:00 Intro00:53 Ed's journey in design and branding03:45 Why is branding and design important?05:26 Why and when should a space company care about branding?08:45 Why should a space company be thinking about branding?10:38 Common branding mistakes space companies make13:33 How much of brand identity is instinct?15:38 How much of NASA's legacy influenced modern branding strategies18:35 Historical branding elements in the space industry21:56 How do you translate a company's vision into a brand identity?33:34 EO industry's branding39:43 Branded hardware45:08 What are brand partnerships and do they matter?50:14 Advice for space startups on beginning with a strong differentiated brand?55:09 How to find, connect, and work with Ed • Show notes •Ed's website — https://edfyfedesign.com/Ed's email — edfyfedesign@gmail.comMo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspacePathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on WednesdaysYou can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

Jack Kuhr, Research Director at Payload, specializes in the financial analysis of the space industry. He shares insights into SpaceX's projected $13.1 billion revenue for 2024, spotlighting launch services and the booming Starlink network with 4.6 million customers. The discussion covers how Payload builds revenue models, the impact of Starship on launch pricing, and the competitive landscape. Speculations about an upcoming IPO and the potential for SpaceX to become the first trillion-dollar company mesmerize listeners as growth drivers are dissected.

This week on Pathfinder, we’re joined by Matt Weinzierl, Chair of the MBA Program and Professor at Harvard Business School, and Brendan Rosseau, a member of the strategy team for launch at Blue Origin. Together, they’ve co-authored Space to Grow: Unlocking the Final Economic Frontier, a new book exploring the history, key players, and economic forces driving the momentum behind the space industry.We discuss:The evolution of space economics and how government-private sector dynamics are changingThe role of NASA as an anchor customer and whether the model has limitsThe rise of defense-focused pivots in commercial space companiesMarket competition and whether we’re seeing monopolization in spaceThe economic case for lunar activity, space stations, and emerging industriesThe biggest risks that could stall commercial space progressTheir book launches on February 25, and this conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in the economic forces shaping the future of space. You can order here! • Chapters •00:00 Intro04:00 HBS’s Space Program06:36 An introduction to “Space to Grow”08:50 The shift from space to defense13:02 What to expect from the book16:56 Space competition or monopolization?21:52 How classic economic principles apply to space29:24 Are we transitioning away from NASA to anchor customers?33:36 Does space have the right financing structures in place to build this industry?38:47 Economic case for the Moon (Mars?)44:16 Viability of space stations48:22 What space industries have the best economic potential in the next couple decades?52:32 Biggest impediment to the space industry55:43 Key takeaways from “Space to Grow”59:05 Matt and Brendan's favorite books01:01:13 Where to find Matt and Brendan • Show notes •Space to Grow — https://www.amazon.com/Space-Grow-Unlocking-Economic-Frontier/Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislamPayload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspacePathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspacePathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes • About us •Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on WednesdaysYou can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/