Ben Yeoh Chats

Saloni Dattani is a founding editor at Works in Progress, a researcher at Our World in Data and a commissioning editor at Stripe Press. She has recently been profiled by Vox as part of the Future Perfect 50. Saloni is an excellent thinker on progress and science with recent articles for Wired (on making science better) and Guardian (on challenge trials).  Saloni tells me what are the most important questions in science that we should be working on. We discuss making science better and thinking around challenge trials, making science more open source, reforming peer review and thinking around experimental clinical trial design. We talk about vaccines, why Saloni tends to optimism and what risks and opportunities she is thinking about. Borrowing from Tyler Cowen, I ask:  How ambitious are you ? Which of your beliefs are you least rational about?”  (Or what is she most irrational about?) What is something esoteric you do ? We play over rated / under rated on: Substack, Misinformation, Doing a PhD, Women in Science; Vaccines and Drugs We end on Saloni’s current projects and advice. Transcript and video available here: www.thendobetter.com/arts/2022/11/8/saloni-dattani-improving-science-important-questions-in-science-open-science-reforming-peer-review-podcast

Jérôme Tagger is CEO of Preventable Surprises. Jérôme is a thinker on long term ESG trends (a catch-all phrase for extra-financial environment, social and governance) and systemic risks. He was a Director at the Global Impact Investing Network, the founding COO of the UN-backed Principles for Responsible Investment, Head of Research at Eurosif and Chief Revenue Officer at ImpactAlpha. Link to video and transcript: www.thendobetter.com/investing/2022/11/2/jrme-tagger-sustainability-esg-as-a-negotiation-impact-investing-podcast We chat about the differing roles of companies, civil society and government. What Jérôme thinks about the most important levers and theories of change. Why ESG could be thought of as a form of negotiation. Whether we have an idea on what the neglected issues or under rated ESG challenges are. What you should be thinking of as the chief exec of a think tank start-up. How we should think about building institutional capital. The importance of relationships and “social capital”. Whether we should consider “less democracy, technocractics rather than democratic decision making. What Jérôme thinks about billionaire philanthropy. What Jérôme is hearing about views on regulation on greenwashing and, in particular, on SFDR (Sustainable Finance Disclosure Regulation, EU). “... I haven't talked to a single person whether on the finance side, on the NGO side, civil society or otherwise that is happy with this regulation.” Jérôme ends with advice and current projects.

Mark Koyama is an Associate Professor of Economics at George Mason. Mark researches comparative national state economic development and the rise of religious tolerance. He is interested in how historical institutions functioned and in the relationship between culture and economic performance.    Transcript:  www.thendobetter.com/investing/2022/10/9/mark-koyama-how-the-world-became-rich-economic-history-intangibles-culture-progress-podcast  I ask why it has taken economists and historians so long to form central views on how we have become rich? Mark discusses what historic progress might tells us about economic development today.  I ask about the interaction between the main factors behind economic progress such as: institutions, culture, infrastructure, geography, energy.  I question the role of common law and ask about living constitutions. Mark discusses his reading of the literature and how the UK is relatively unique in its living constitutions.  I query the role of intangibles and the patent system and briefly lay out the case (after Brad De Long) for importance of industrial labs and the corporate form. Mark discusses these factors and their importance from the 1870s but also what was important pre-1870.   We chat about culture (using Joe Henrich’s terms) as a set of heuristics. Mark discusses the literature on the importance and role of slavery (probably not the most major facotr in the UK’s industrialization, but still heavily argued), and the role and roots of social progress such as women’s rights.    We cover impacts of war and also the black death from an economic history view and we discuss the challenge on climate.   We play over/underrated on : GDP, carbon tax, representative democracy governance mechanisms, universal basic income.   Mark ends with current projects and advice.   "….So podcasts; everything is online basically. The young person who's ambitious and interested can actually get to speed quickly. So you can teach yourself econometrics by watching tons of YouTube videos. Most people won't because there's other stuff to watch on YouTube, there's other stuff to do. I could be teaching myself foreign languages on YouTube and I'm not doing it because my opportunity costs I guess is maybe high. But if you're young and wanted to study this stuff, you can get a huge head start just by use of the internet cleverly. Tyler Cowen’s advice is find the right mentors. Find some people and learn from them. But you get a huge amount early on to give yourself a head start before you go to university because to be honest, the university experience isn't necessarily going to be all that…"

Jacob Soll is a professor of philosophy, history and accounting. His latest book is Free Market: The History of an Idea. Jake has works on the history of accounting, The Reckoning: Financial Accountability and the Rise and Fall of Nations (2014); the influence of Machiavelli, "The Prince" (2005) and Louis XIV’s First minster, Jean-Baptiste Cobert, The Information Master (2009). Jake works on accounting standards and financial transparency as well as the history of ideas. Transcript, video and links here: https://www.thendobetter.com/investing/2022/9/24/jacob-soll-the-history-of-free-market-ideas-cicero-adam-smith-hamilton-machievelli-podcast We discuss is better accounting can save the world by looking at externalities, natural capital and human capital better. We chat about the central role of Cicero and stoic thought in the history of free market thinkers, and how Cicero was in this respect more influential than Aristotle. Jake talks about how Christian thinkers, and Franciscan monks thought about free markets and also Alexander Hamilton and Machievelli. We discuss the role of institutions in shaping thought. Jake argues for the importance of patenting ideas and if UK’s patent office gave the country an edge when the industrial revolution started. We debate if “idea” or “dream” would be a better word to encompass the historic thinking on free markets. We discuss the role of culture, to what extent protectionism and some tariffs helped economies develop historically. We play underrated/overrated on: GDP as a measure, carbon tax, standardized sustainability measures, and UBI, universal basic income. We end on Jake’s current projects and life advice. Study more serious humanities books! Don't read easy to read books. I think they are the most destructive thing on our culture; these CEO books. “Pull up your boots and tie your shoes in the morning. Don't let the government give you eggs.” I read some of these books and I'm like, "How is this helping anybody?" Go back and read the kind of books we were reading when we were actually building big states and building things that have proved sustainable. If you don't know what they are, just go back and read great literature and great novels. What is that? Well, you can make a decision. It can come from any country. It can come from any religion, but there are great books. Over centuries I see traditional books that we've decided over time are extremely useful to us. Go back and read those. For me, it's the 19th century novel. It has become Roman and Greek philosophy. It's also become the early works of the fathers of the church which never ceased to fascinate me. The writings of William of Ockham… Those are fascinating books. Read serious books. I really think it's time to put down the Harry Potter and get challenged.

Naomi Fisher is a clinical psychologist. She has written a book: Changing Our Minds: How children can take control of their own learning. The book is an excellent look at self-directed education also known in the UK as home education, or in the US as home school or unschooling.   We discuss her background as a psychologist and her work with autistic people. We chat about her experience of eleven schools and why she has ended up asking questions about control. Why we control people and particularly why we control children. Naomi discusses the different schools of thought on education and why progressive doesn't necessarily mean child-led education and why she likes the idea (Alison Gopnik) of a child as scientist. We chat about what Naomi views as  the problems of the current system such as the overuse of exams and why behvaiourism only covers a tiny slice of what learning is in the real world. Naomi highlights some of the benefits of a self-directed education process and what home education can bring. We talk about the amount of time we have spent in the world of Minecraft. Why parents may be overworried about the use of technology and screen time. Why YouTube might be more beneficial than not. Naomi answers my question on how to deal with child meltdown and outlines the idea of zones of tolerance. I pose a question on to what extent we should influence a child’s learning “syllabus” and Naomi outlines her view that a child should always have agency and not be forced into “learning” but that does not mean we should not seek to give a child a rich environment and opportunity to learn. Naomi answers listener questions. First, if home education is only for rich people, and, second, the impacts of the pandemic on home educators. We play overrated/underrated and Naomi rates: the government setting the curriculum,  the role of exams, social media and technical colleges. Naomi talks about her latest projects including a second book on neurodiversity and self-directed education, called “A Different Way to Learn” available in 2023. Naomi ends with advice: “my number one advice for parents would be trust your instincts about what your child needs and how your child is. There are a lot of parents I talk to they say, "I think that my child is really unhappy or I think that my child needs these things, but the professionals are telling me that I'm wrong." I think you need to just retain your knowledge that you know your child better and you probably have a really good sense. You don't just know your child better, but in most cases you share genes with your child. Therefore you often have a kind of intuitive understanding of the experiences that your child is having and that you can get inside their heads in a way that professionals often can't. So I would say really listen to your instincts, give yourself space to think about what you think as sort of apart from what everybody tells you, you should be thinking. The other thing is lean into the things that your child likes; whatever they are, lean into them and embrace them because this is a short time of life when they're like this and when they're young and it is an amazing opportunity to connect with them if you choose to do that rather than choosing to pull them away from the things that they love.” Transcript available here: https://www.thendobetter.com/arts/2022/8/31/naomi-fisher-home-education-unschool-agency-in-learning-meltdowns-child-led-learning-cognitive-psychology-podcast

Kana Chan is living in Kamikatsu which is Japan’s first “zero waste” village in rural Japan.  She writes a substack at Tending Gardens and runs INOW which is an educational homestay programme to stay to at Kamikatsu. In 2021, she was selected as an Emerging Climate Leader Asia-Pacific through the ProSPER.Net Leadership Programme.   She has lived and worked in Bangladesh, and travelled widely as a photographer and story teller. Kana cares deeply about climate action, sustainable tourism, and education. I ask Kana about how she arrived in Kamikatsu. I ask what people should understand or misunderstand, how Kana finds Japanese culture and how it differs between rural and city. What she misses about the city. What people have learned coming to Kamikatsu, all the farming knowledge she has learned growing and harvesting her own food, and what the process of tea farming (awa bancha) has been like. Kana explains that zero waste currently means here that 80% of all waste in the village is recycled (in 45 different categories!) and how the villagers manage their waste systems. We play overrated/underated on toilets that play music, sitting in hot baths and Japan train journeys. Kana ends on her latest projects and her advice on what can be learned from disconnecting from a culture of convenience. "I think being able to just see a diverse amount of the way people live and seeing how people choose to spend their time, how people choose to spend their money, I think can be just a really enriching experience. And so you have those things to contrast and see, "Oh, that's probably something I can take into my own life or not." I don't think the countryside is necessarily for everyone, but I do think that people can incorporate aspects that bring more nature into their lives or bring more self-sufficiency into their lives and I think a good starting point for that is spending time in the countryside and then being able to see what you can take back to wherever home is for you. If you do decide to move to the countryside, just changing your frame of mind and seeing the things that are inconveniences as opportunities for you to spend your time in other ways, and disconnecting from a culture of convenience can be just a really personally enriching thing. That's what I've found for myself and so, yeah, I hope everyone gets to spend some time in the countryside; whether it's permanent, temporal, or just transient. If Kamikatsu interests you in particular or sustainability from a countryside perspective, I'd be happy to welcome you here to Kamikatsu" Transcript and link to video available here: www.thendobetter.com/arts/2022/8/1/kana-chan-living-in-a-zero-waste-village-in-rural-japan-kamikatsu-podcast

Larry Temkin is a moral philosopher. He has major works on inequality (book: Inequality); transitivity and social choices  (when A > B > C, A > C ?; book: Rethinking the Good) and recently on the philosophies of doing good (critiquing some aspects of Effective Altruism, long-termism, international aid, utilitarianism | book: Being Good in a World of Need). As of 2022, he was Distinguished Professor of Philosophy at Rutgers University. The podcast is in two parts. The second part focuses on Effective Altruism (EA) ideas. The first part looks at transitivity, and other debates in philosophy through a pluralist lens. This is part 2 on EA ideas. The whole conversation is 3 hours long, so please feel free to dip in and out of it, and if you are intrigued go and look to Larry’s original works. There is a link to a transcript and commentray in a blogpost at the end. In the podcast, I ask: I ask how Larry comes up with such unique ideas such as on inequality and transitivity, and the story of how he was rejected by three great philosophers when he first proposed his idea. (In part 1) Larry explains consequentialist notions of personhood, especially with respect to a question I had on Singer’s view on disability, and even though our general views are more pluralist. (In part 1) I pose a dilemma I have about the art of a friend who has done awful things, and Larry explains the messiness of morals. (In part 1) (In part 2) Larry recounts the dinner with Derek Parfit, and Angus Deaton, along with a billionaire and other philosophers. This dinner gave Larry bad dreams and lead to Larry thinking up many disanalogies to Peter Singer’s classic pond analogy. We discuss the pond analogy and how it may or may not be a good analogy for doing good in foreign places especially the disaster that was Goma. Larry discusses how he changed his mind on whether international aid may be doing more harm than good and both philosophical and practical reason behind it. Larry also discusses some concern on the the possible over focus on long-termism. We barely touch on Larry’s work in inequality, but I will mention that it has been influential in how the World Health Organisation and potentially ultimately China has viewed access to healthcare. The work has also highlighted the complexity around equality, and that it may be more individualistic and more complicated than often assumed. Throughout all of this is the strong sense of a pluralistic view of the world, where we may value many attributes such as fairness, justice, health and that a focus on only one value may lead us astray. Larry ends with life advice: “I've taught many students over the years. I'm coming to the end of my career. I'm retiring. I've had countless students in my office over the years who are struggling with the question of, "How should I lead my life? This is extremely controversial, but being the pluralist that I am, I believe in a balanced life. Now, you can find balance in a number of ways. But just as I'm a pluralist about my moral values, I'm a pluralist about what's involved in being a good person and what's involved in leading a worthwhile human life. I'm signed up in the camp of, "We only have one life to lead." Transcript and video, plus blog posts here: https://www.thendobetter.com/arts/2022/7/24/larry-temkin-transitivity-critiques-of-effective-altruism-international-aid-pluralism-podcast

Larry Temkin is a moral philosopher. He has major works on inequality (book: Inequality); transitivity and social choices  (when A > B > C, A > C ?; book: Rethinking the Good) and recently on the philosophies of doing good (critiquing some aspects of Effective Altruism, long-termism, international aid, utilitarianism | book: Being Good in a World of Need). As of 2022, he was Distinguished Professor of Philosophy at Rutgers University. The podcast is in two parts. The second part focuses on Effective Altruism ideas. The first part looks at transitivity, and other debates in philosophy through a pluralist lens. This is part 1. The whole conversation is 3 hours long, so please feel free to dip in and out of it, and if you are intrigued go and look to Larry’s original works. I provide some links in the blogpost link at the end to his books and some commentary from others (Tyler Cowen, reviewers) and a transcript. In the podcast, I ask: How should we value a human life? What is transitivity? And we discuss the axioms that transitivity underpins for economic, social and moral choices. I ask how Larry comes up with such unique ideas such as on inequality and transitivity, and the story of how he was rejected by three great philosophers when he first proposed his idea. Larry explains consequentialist notions of personhood, especially with respect to a question I had on Peter Singer’s view on disability, and even though our general views are more pluralist. I pose a dilemma I have about the art of a friend who has done awful things, and Larry explains the messiness of morals. Larry recounts the dinner with Derek Parfit, and Angus Deaton, along with a billionaire and other brilliant philosophers. This dinner gave Larry bad dreams and lead to Larry thinking up many disanalogies to Peter Singer’s classic pond analogy. We discuss the pond analogy and how it may or may not be a good analogy for doing good in foreign places especially the disaster that was Goma. Larry discusses how he changed his mind on whether international aid may be doing more harm than good and both philosophical and practical reasons behind it. Larry also discusses some concern on the the possible over-focus on long-termism. We barely touch on Larry’s work in inequality, but I will mention that it has been influential in how the World Health Organisation and potentially ultimately China has viewed access to healthcare. The work has also highlighted the complexity around equality, and that it may be more individualistic and more complicated than often assumed. Throughout all of this is the strong sense of a pluralistic view of the world, where we may value many attributes such as fairness, justice, health and that a focus on only one value may lead us astray. “I've taught many students over the years. I'm coming to the end of my career. I'm retiring. I've had countless students in my office over the years who are struggling with the question of, "How should I lead my life? This is extremely controversial, but being the pluralist that I am, I believe in a balanced life. Now, you can find balance in a number of ways. But just as I'm a pluralist about my moral values, I'm a pluralist about what's involved in being a good person and what's involved in leading a worthwhile human life. I'm signed up in the camp of, "We only have one life to lead." Transcript and video: https://www.thendobetter.com/arts/2022/7/24/larry-temkin-transitivity-critiques-of-effective-altruism-international-aid-pluralism-podcast

Leigh Caldwell is a cognitive economist. Leigh has done excellent work around the psychology of pricing and exploring how people consume intangible products with their mind. He has founded several software companies and is co-founder of the Irrational Agency.  We chatted on Leigh graduating from university at 18, what attracted him to the internet and wanting to start companies and what lead him to the path of psychology, behavioral economics and ultimately to cognitive economics. How the question of “Why do we get so much of what's important to us from what is manufactured inside our heads?” inspired Leigh to understand more about the brain. Leigh dicusses his ideas on  why the human brain might have developed the mental tools that we have. We explore the idea of mental simulation, what the brain may be incentivised to do and how the brain may solve the challenge of planning for future action and deferred gratification. Leigh discusses the idea of discounting the future, the challenge of long causality chains in our scenario thinking  and how the ease of imagination may impact how we think of future actions. Leigh explains his model exploring agency and choice, and the difficulties and limitations of models. We discuss the power of stories, why narrative might work and the possible process of conditioning and deconditioning to story narratives. Why once a myth or pattern is embedded, it is so difficult to work around. Leigh gives me some free consulting on how to price and sell sustainable investing products, how to use surveysand how a small company could do it themselves to an extent. We discuss utility theory and  nudge economics. We play over-rated/under-rated on: nudging, carbon tax, carbon labels, being a generalist, deliberative democracy; and Scottish Independence. We end on current projects and Leigh’s life advice. ‘...storytelling is your voice going out there and hopefully having as big an impact as you want. But, story hearing is the other side of it. We should be listening to the stories of all the people around us, and the many people whose stories are not heard in society. By hearing those stories and understanding what underlies them, then we will be able to figure out what the right story is that we might then want to tell…” Transcript/Video: https://www.thendobetter.com/investing/2022/7/21/leigh-caldwell-cognitive-economics-power-of-stories-how-the-mind-consumes-dreams-and-plans-future-actions-podcast

David Finnigan is an award winning theatre maker, writer and games creator from Ngunnawal country, Australia. David produces performances and writing that explores concepts from Game Theory, Complex Systems science, Network Theory and Resilience. He has also had the dubious honour of performing on stage with me, in our performance lecture collaboration, Thinking Bigly. He has a show coming up at The Barbican, London, 27 September, 2022: You’re Safe Til 2024: Deep History. We discuss how all art might be considered climate art. Thus we should consider jobs as jobs, why put green there? or health is health. This can take some of the heat out of the language. Even in the great depression, we sort of look back now. There's a tradition of screwball comedies in the great depression. Now, we look back at them and they had nothing to do with the kind of political issues and economic issues at the time. But we look back at them now and say, "Oh, they were deliberately escapist from those conditions of the time." So whatever you kind of create now it's very hard to not find a way to read it. That is a climate reading. And when something becomes all encompassing like that, it's almost such a broad term that it ceases to be useful to use it. I'm thinking now of your comment the other day where you said, "When we talk about climate health or we talk about climate justice, that's just health and that's just justice." At what point is it relevant to use the word climate and at what point is it unnecessary? Because climate's everything. Climate's everywhere. So it becomes a bit too vague. We chat about the process of creativity in particular in performing arts. The importance of David finding a community in his home town and the constant making of work at the start of his artistic journey. David discusses what he learned from scientists and his father. How this has integrated into his art. We debate on what is most misunderstood about Australia and London. I ask David what he learned from injured possums.  David talks about London foxes and Underground mosquitoes. How theatre is narrow but deep. How theatre is bad for being able to pay rent. What David learnt from theatre in the Philippines. What we learn from failure. How we practice creativity and how we improve. David’s work in music and spoken word. We end on David’s current projects including his one man climate show coming up at the Barbican. David gives his advice to creatives. “Don't ask for career advice, don't ask for professional advice. Ask people their story.” Transcript and Video available here.