Overtired

It’s episode 300! But not 300 episodes. We explain. Also, Brett visits Minneapolis, secrets of the public radio interview, and lots of complaining about expensive Apple gear. All aboard! Sponsor Meet Mindbloom. When it comes to mental health, sometimes you need something more to achieve a real and lasting breakthrough. Maybe it’s time to check out a guided ketamine therapy program — Mindbloom can help. After only 2 sessions, 87% of Mindbloom clients reported improvements in depression, and 85% reported improvements in anxiety. Right now, Mindbloom is offering Overtired listeners $100 off your first six-session program when you sign up at mindbloom.com/overtired and use promo code overtired at checkout. Show Links Vegan soul food in Minneapolis Snazzy Labs videos on the broken iMac Pro Old school tape splicing techniques Arduino IDE 2.0 Charm iTerm Warp Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jeffreyguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Episode 300! [00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired. [00:00:04] Christina: You are listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren and I’m back, and I’m joined by my good friends, Brett Terpstra and Jeff Severance. Gunzel. Guys, I’m back. [00:00:15] Jeff: Welcome back, [00:00:16] Christina: Three’s back together. No, this is actually exciting. We haven’t, the three of us haven’t recorded in a few weeks and I’ve, I’ve missed you guys. I’ve missed the pod. [00:00:23] Jeff: Yeah. We’ve missed you [00:00:24] Brett: Yeah. Here’s what I figured out. This podcast got like significantly better when Jeff joined us, Um, and not just because now one of us can disappear and the show can go on, but because like Jeff is like a foil. Between like Christina’s tendency to info dump and my tendency to just ramble and like Jeff can like ask the questions that actually get deeper into a topic. [00:00:50] And he does it with a very, like a calm approach that really tempers the two of us. And I love the dynamic and I have heard now every combination, just like me and Christina, Jeff and Christina, me and Jeff, and uh, it’s never been as good as it has been with the three of us. [00:01:08] Jeff: Yeah, I [00:01:09] Christina: Yeah, no, I totally, I I’m with you. Uh, yeah. Think the three of us balance each out. Well, actually, here’s what it is. Jeff balances me and Brett out, and then like, I balance Jeff and, uh, Brett and, and Brett, uh, balances, uh, Christina and, and [00:01:25] Brett: We all have our quirks that need tempering. [00:01:27] Christina: Right? That’s what I’m saying. Like we all like fit into like, [00:01:30] Jeff: Yeah, I was gonna say I’m not, I’m not typically described as a balancing [00:01:34] Brett: You. Okay. So your interview skills though, like the way that you ask such thoughtful questions leads to, especially when we have guests, but even when it’s just the three of us, or even like that episode you and I did where you, you interviewed me, like the questions, you, I’ve been on a ton of podcasts and I’ve been interviewed by a ton of people and it’s always been basically the same questions. [00:01:58] And uh, like they always approach me as like some productivity guru, uh, that I don’t, that I don’t really believe is a thing. Um, [00:02:07] Jeff: hurt people. [00:02:09] Brett: yeah, they’re all fake. Like nobody has the answers. Don’t, don’t look to me. But you asked questions that actually were fun to talk about and really, I felt actually revealed something about like the way I work and what I do that was. [00:02:24] Jeff: Cool. Well, it’s fun to do. I like you people. We should do a podcast. [00:02:28] Christina: should do a podcast. [00:02:29] Jeff: You know what? Let’s start with episode 300. [00:02:33] Christina: Season three, baby. [00:02:33] Brett: Oh my God. Season three we’re just, so we went to season two. We, there was a, my, a small jump in episode numbers. We took a, a long hiatus. It took us five years to get 79 episodes out. [00:02:48] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:02:48] Brett: Um, and [00:02:50] Christina: know what? I’m proud of us for actually not giving up. [00:02:52] Jeff: Yeah. That’s awesome. [00:02:54] Christina: podcasts, once they’d lost the consistency of weekly and then biweekly and then monthly and then bi month. I think that at a certain point they’d be like, Yeah, you know what? This is never coming back. [00:03:03] But we, [00:03:04] Brett: we just, we kept showing up every six months and putting out an episode to increasingly, increasingly fewer listeners. Um, but then we jumped to episode 200, uh, and, and announced season two. And we have put out in. [00:03:20] Christina: like two years, I guess. [00:03:21] Brett: We have, we have put out 100 actual episodes without skipping any numbers. And, and we have just hit with this episode. [00:03:30] This is episode 300, not the 300th episode. [00:03:34] Jeff: episode 300, [00:03:35] Brett: It does, it does officially harken, uh, season three. [00:03:40] Christina: Yeah. I [00:03:41] Jeff: Season three, you know, and the Internet’s been going crazy dissecting our season three trailer. What does it [00:03:46] Christina: have, [00:03:47] Jeff: Um, but we’re just gonna do, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna think about the fans. We’re not gonna think about fan expectations. We’re just gonna forward. [00:03:56] Brett: Okay. What do we have in store for season three? What’s, what’s, what’s the hook? [00:04:02] Christina: Yeah. What is gonna be the hook? Is there a mystery? Is there like something we’re trying to uncover? [00:04:07] Jeff: Mm. [00:04:07] Brett: announce a whole new segment where we review, we review talkies like. [00:04:16] Christina: reviewed talkies. [00:04:19] Jeff: Well, we’re releasing our own brand of microwave popcorn to go along with that, [00:04:22] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. [00:04:23] Jeff: I don’t think I’m spoiling anything. . The talkies, the Nickelodeon, The pictures. Silent movies were the worst [00:04:29] Brett: movies were the worst. Not that [00:04:32] Jeff: Yeah, Like did you hate that part of your youth? always had to watch the Goonies on mute. [00:04:38] Brett: No, I mean, I gotta assume that in their, in their era, they were super exciting. Like the idea of motion pictures had to be fucking mind blowing. Um, and, but like knowing what I know today, the idea of sitting through a silent movie just seems just too tedious. [00:04:55] Christina: Well, it wasn’t completely silent like you usually had live accompaniment. [00:04:59] Brett: piano player. [00:05:00] Christina: Right. And then, and then at one point, then the, before the jazz singer, which was the, the first film to have synchronized sound and, um, like music. Um, I think that you then had like an era where there was some synchronized, like music that might have been recorded. [00:05:16] Um, but, but you didn’t have like the, the, the voice stuff. [00:05:20] Jeff: It is astonishing to think about all that happens behind the scenes to make a movie. Even in the simplest scene, I’d be like, What is the project management system that whoever has to manage all of this is using? Right? Like what could sustain it? [00:05:36] Brett: In college, I went to art school and um, I worked grip for some of the film majors, uh, working on, you know, senior projects or whatever, and yeah. Holy shit. Even in a, a college student production movie, there is so much going on. [00:05:54] Christina: So much. Well, and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting. I wonder like what it’s like now because, you know, I, I was in college, um, during like the, the, the digital film revolution. So like, you know, you had like, like micro DV or mini DV rather and, and then, you know, some other of the digital formats and so that, that changed how quickly you could edit versus, you know, even just a couple of years earlier, everybody was shooting on film, which would, would take a lot longer and would do things. [00:06:18] Brett: If you ever used an ab deck, uh, to mix like two magnetic tape reels together, the idea of doing all of your movie production in something like Final Cut or what’s the Adobe version of Final Cut, to have that be your main tool set, because back then, if you wanted to make a real movie, a movie that people would enjoy, you made it on film because video looked like [00:06:46] Christina: Because it looked like shit until digital. Yeah. And until, until DV and, and then like hdv and whatnot, like, right. Like it, it was bad. And then like the, the digital camera starting around like 2000, 2001, you started to get these decent sensors and then it got better. But yeah, you’re exactly right. But even then it was like a lot of people still, like I, I think I did one project on 16 millimeter because my university, we had, at the time, it was like one of the most advanced in, in the country. [00:07:12] Like we had a, um, a, a digital conversion lab, um, at, at our university where like you could, you. Scan in the film and digitize it. And that was actually really fucking fascinating. And that, that was great. But like, I came of age only, like digital, Right. Or, or vhs. But there was that cut, you’re right, there was that amazing thing about you had to use film and, and cuts had to be a lot more precise. [00:07:36] You know, You, you had like, it was, you know, you could make copies of, of, of your film obviously, but like, you know, there was a lot less room for, for error. [00:07:46] Brett: I think everyone who is getting into filmmaking should have to make one movie on film because so much of what is modern software is based on the ideas that come from film editing and. It’s like using wax boards when you’re getting into graphic design to understand why quirk and InDesign work the way they do. [00:08:07] Uh, it helps to really, like, you don’t have to make a good movie, you just have to have the experience. [00:08:11] Christina: No, I, I, I, I feel the same way cuz it was one of those things where, um, you, when you’re describing the AB thing, I was like, I don’t have any experience with that, but I do obviously know those paradigms because of using mixing software. Right. And um, even like one of the first in LS that I ever used was actually something that was based off of an Amiga system, but it was this thing that my high school had, this was be before our RG three max. [00:08:34] Um, you know, uh, you know, before we got like final cut and stuff on them. Um, It was this, this like amica based thing. It wasn’t a video toaster, but it, it used video toaster like stuff, but it was kind of like an all in one box where you would basically insert one VHS tape and then you would, because this is how bad it was, you could technically, I guess you could get one where you could plug in a higher end camera, but have one VHS tape that you pull in. [00:08:57] Then you’d have, you know, the other VHS tape that it would record back to. And then it took hard drives. Like there were these hard drive sleds and it would basically digitize the VHS footage. And then you had this kind of rudimentary, like where you could, you know, do you know, move stuff around and then when you were done, rather than just like exporting the digitization that’s already on the hard drive to some sort of digital format, it would just like analog record back [00:09:24] Brett: Yeah, and it would be, it would be nice to skip that shit. Like I say, I say start with film [00:09:30] Christina: I agree with that. I agree. Do do the actual splicing. [00:09:33] Brett: and learn to do the soundtrack on magnetic tape. Like, like do an actual film, but then jump straight to modern technology and just appreciate how fucking great it [00:09:44] Christina: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, film is interesting too. I mean, audio, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have any experience with that stuff. But like film, I think one of the things there too is uh, you know, the way that that exposure works because I did a lot of like film photography before I did like anything with 16 millimeter and it is so different. [00:10:00] And that is the one weird thing is that now I do wonder obviously, like, uh, film photography has come back and vogue again, but the way that captures are shadows are captured and the way that light works is so different on that medium that it is, I think it would be a good challenge, but it would also be one of those things cuz the way you light a film, that shot on film versus something shot on video are very different. [00:10:23] Brett: Well, like, like, [00:10:24] Christina: but that’s also important to know. [00:10:26] Brett: yeah, like knowing iso, knowing f stops, knowing focal lengths, like all that stuff. If you have that experience from film, uh, those tools do still exist in, in like modern camera software. It’s great to not have to think about them though, [00:10:42] Christina: Right. It is, But I’m, But I’m even saying like, the way that you light something that’s being recorded, like with, you know, a a a, a digital camera, like digital video camera is different because the way that it picks up is different. And at least with digital, we have instant playback, which, you know, we did not have in, in, in film. [00:11:01] Especially if you’re doing student 16 millimeter films. [00:11:03] Brett: no. You had, you had one week later playback after you got the film developed and realized it was all fucked up. [00:11:10] Christina: Yeah. And you’re like, you’re like, you’re like, this is completely unusable because it’s lit so poorly. Yeah. [00:11:15] Jeff: My brother would make these short 16 millimeter films and he could shoot when he had enough money to buy a little bit of film, and then there would be some time, and then there was money to buy. Some more film and there’d be another shoot. You know, like that to me is, is one of the things that just, when I say that out loud, I feel like I’m a hundred years old. [00:11:37] Christina: No, but it’s cool. [00:11:38] Jeff: It’s super cool. And, and even like, you know, um, Jim Jarou, the filmmaker, you know, his second film Strangers in Paradise, Stranger Then Paradise, I forget, which is all single shot and then just hard cuts from scene to scene. Cuz he could only afford one camera [00:11:55] Brett: Yeah. [00:11:55] Christina: right [00:11:56] Jeff: you know, [00:11:56] Christina: now, that’s the [00:11:57] Jeff: and it established for him a pacing that is still in his movies. [00:12:01] Like it’s just, But anyway, I loved all that. The other thing he made me think about with the audio is when I worked in public radio, there was a um, like a first aid cabinet in the break room. And I remember somebody telling me like, cause I open it and there was like just nothing in it. And they’re like, you know, this thing used to be tended to better because back in the tape days we were constantly cutting tape and cutting our fingers. [00:12:22] And so we were constantly coming to the first aid cabinet. [00:12:25] Christina: When, when you worked in in public radio, were they already post tape or, or were they [00:12:29] Jeff: Yeah, there were post tape, but like in the, in, in the booths where I would go to record my pieces, they have these just amazing at Minnesota Public Radio, they have like a, like three or four just amazing small individual booths, and you could just go in there and make radio. It’s like just incredible. Um, all the gears. [00:12:46] Ready for you. It’s totally silent. Like it’s so cool. Anyway, that I had a, a friend there described like the wall in that, in that booth would’ve been just covered in cuts that were taped up. [00:12:57] Brett: Do you know? Do you know how you cross fade on tape, [00:13:01] Jeff: Do you cut an angle? [00:13:02] Brett: You cut an angle, you cut a diagonal, and then you like find the, you bring the audio in and then cut the other angle and tape it back together, and that’s how you make a cross fade. [00:13:13] Christina: amazing. [00:13:14] Jeff: That’s amazing. Mental Health Corner [00:13:16] Brett: Here’s my segue to the mental health corner. I, uh, I’ve, I’ve been working in my office all day and there’s been a fly torturing me, and I’ve not been able to kill it until right before this podcast. I had a Starbucks bottle empty on my desk, [00:13:35] Christina: Oh, [00:13:36] Brett: flew in there and I immediately captured it. So now I’m watching it fly around and just laughing. [00:13:41] After all of the torture it gave me, it says, vengeance, [00:13:46] Jeff: Not today, Satan. That’s amazing. I’m really happy for you, Brett. I think that’s a good way to start season three of Victory Brett, you had to visit to Minneapolis, in which I saw you face to face for only the second time in my life. [00:14:02] Brett: Like, we know each other so well. That I didn’t even think about it when we sat down for tacos. Like it just seemed like this is just a thing we do. And it didn’t dawn on me until halfway through the meal that, that was literally the only, the second time I’d ever met you in person. [00:14:21] Christina: So funny, [00:14:22] Jeff: It’s weird. And also when I picked you up in my car, it was so fucked up for that entire like first 10 minutes of driving. I just felt like my headphones were broken and I was only hearing you in my right ear. so strange. Anyway, how did it [00:14:36] Brett: Okay, so this is mental health corner now, right? We’re we’re mental health cornering. [00:14:42] Christina: we’re mental health corner. [00:14:43] Jeff: we’re cornering you. [00:14:45] Brett: I, uh, I had, so like, I, I think last time we talked I was starting to have some rough sleep, um, that I predicted was going to lead to a manic episode. Um, and it did and it kicked in, uh, in Minneapolis. Um, my first night in Minneapolis. [00:15:04] I. Got like four hours of sleep and was awake for half the night. And, uh, yes, I was coding on a MacBook Pro at a desk in a hotel, and it kind of ruined most of Saturday for me. I, I had low enough sleep that I didn’t feel safe driving anywhere and I didn’t wanna spend all my money on Uber. So I rearranged my schedule to try to find places to eat that were within walking distance. [00:15:33] And it’s, I was in a part of town that does not, There are parts of Minneapolis that have amazing, amazing food on every block. This was not one of them, [00:15:46] Christina: one of them. [00:15:47] Brett: but I was [00:15:48] Jeff: Yeah, you were in a little Minneapolis neighborhood called downtown, which is dead to the world. [00:15:54] Brett: like Ette Mall, not Ette, Eat Street. And a Saturday night though, Jeff came and picked me up at the hotel. He drove. We went, we went, we went to go to a really cool black owned vegan soul food place, but they were closed. Um, but we had, we had some great tacos. We had a good time. And we went to a, like a hipster bar with like girls in cardigans playing. [00:16:20] What’s that game with the board? [00:16:22] Christina: Yeah. [00:16:23] Brett: Cribbage? Yeah. It was, it was a weird bar, but beers were like $5, which is pretty fucking crazy good for this day and age. Um, anyway, I drank enough that night. I may have had one beer too many, uh, because I did manage to sleep. On Saturday night, and then Sunday was a fucking blast. [00:16:45] I had a great, I met my high school girlfriend for breakfast and, and you know, I’m a little manic, like the conversation is all over the place and she’s like, This is nothing new. Like, I knew you 25 years ago and this is nothing new. Like, I, I understand this and I’m like, Yeah, it makes sense that like you wouldn’t that, that it’s been going on that long. [00:17:09] But we connected and it was so, uh, it was just great. It was awesome. Then I met friend of the show, Patrick Rome and his, and our friend Jason Remus for lunch at Pizza Lure, and I did not realize there’s a pizza place in Minneapolis with like five locations that will serve everything with vegan and gluten-free options. [00:17:32] Almost everything on the menu you can get vegan and gluten-free and it’s [00:17:37] Christina: it any good? [00:17:38] Jeff: it’s super good. [00:17:39] Christina: Okay. [00:17:40] Brett: I, I, I had a vegan, gluten free, uh, like devil went down to Georgia Pizza with like sweet chili lime sauce and it was so good. Can I just add one thing [00:17:53] Christina: Yeah, please. [00:17:54] Brett: on my way up on Friday night, I was supposed to meet other friend of the show. [00:17:59] Harold, Chris Harold, and I got a flat tire on the freeway and it cost me $500 to get back on the road. And enough time that we, we couldn’t meet for dinner anymore And I ended up eating in the hotel restaurant that night and then got a shitty night’s sleep and thought the trip was ruined. I thought like it was all gonna be a waste of time, but it really turned around [00:18:23] Jeff: That’s awesome. Yeah, I remember I felt a lot of pressure on, on Saturday, cuz you had had just pretty much a shitty time and it was kind of like, all right, well now you, uh, now you give me, So let’s see how this [00:18:34] Brett: fixed it. You were amazing. Thank you so much. But I want to hear from you guys. [00:18:39] Jeff: Christina, you wanna go? [00:18:41] Christina: Yeah. So, um, I’m, I’m back. I, uh, was in Chicago and then last week, I don’t remember what, Oh, I, uh, I had the, I had the, got my Covid booster, um, and uh, it cake. My ass. So when, when we needed to flake and record, I just, I couldn’t do it. Um, so, um, I’m still having some of the stomach problems. It is what it is. [00:19:02] I’m really busy with work, which is a challenge. So I’m having a hard time like getting like my physical health, like in like fixed, because I’m genuinely at crunch time for a bunch of work things that, um, I am kind of crucial to. So I, it’s one of those things where like I, I, I can’t like, you know, like miss out on things. [00:19:23] So, We’ll, we’ll see how that’s going. I, um, I talked to, uh, my shrink, uh, today, which was, um, uh, good, although it was, I, I’m not really sure I got. I basically went on a long tangent about nothing really related to me. Um, uh, when we were talking based on a tangent that he went on, he was telling me about some of the, uh, advances that are happening in, in ADHD meds that are non amphetamine based. [00:19:51] So some of them are whatever the type of thing that Ritalin is, which is not an amphetamine, it’s like some other type. And then there’s, uh, a new class of drugs that are not controlled substances that there’s been some interesting, um, like research and, and, and good feedback on. So we’re gonna talk about one of them to potentially add as like, you know, in addition to my, my Dxa dream, which I obviously enjoy and need very much so. [00:20:18] Jeff: That’s cool. [00:20:20] Christina: Yeah, I’ll keep you guys updated cuz it was, it was interesting. He was, cuz my, my shrink keep was like telling me before I went off on my tangent, that derailed us. He was telling me about some of the, about a conference he went to, um, in, uh, New Orleans where he was learning about some of the advances and some of the, the different, you know, research and things that are happening in, in drugs to treat adhd. [00:20:38] And I was like, Yes. Talk to me about this. This is actually interesting, not just for me, but also for my podcast. I actually thought of you two. I was like, oh, this would probably be good podcast stuff. [00:20:48] Jeff: That’s interesting. Um, I don’t have much to report. I’m, uh, you know, I’m, Oh, actually what’s really wonderful right now is it’s autumn and it means that we are getting cool weather and I have a living room full of windows and a big old couch that we just got. We waited, I think eight months for it to be delivered. [00:21:10] And so I can take little like mini naps there with my cat, with the breeze coming in, and it is like the best way to chill me out. It’s wonderful. So I’m just, you know, experimenting with naps. [00:21:23] Brett: Let’s take a, let’s take a sponsor break and, uh, Christina, why don’t you tell us about Mind Bloom? Sponsor: Mindbloom [00:21:29] Christina: Yeah, this episode is brought to you by Mind Bloom. You just need to take better care of yourself is not a response to mental health struggles. As we’ve discussed many times on this podcast, you know all too well you live with them. Sometimes you need something more to achieve a real and lasting breakthrough. [00:21:46] Maybe it’s time you check out a guided ketamine therapy program. Mind Bloom can help Mind. Bloom is a leader in at home ketamine therapy, offering a combination of science backed medicine with clinician and guide support for people who are looking to improve their mental health and wellbeing. Mind. [00:22:02] Bloom connects patients to licensed psychiatric clinicians to help them achieve better outcomes with lower costs, greater convenience, and an artfully crafted experience. So to begin, take Mind Bloom’s online assessment to determine if Mind Bloom is right for you. And if you’re approved, you’ll schedule a video consult with a licensed clinician where you’ll discuss your goals and your expectations for mental health treatment. [00:22:26] Mind Bloom will then send you a kid in the mail complete with medicine treatment materials, and tips for getting the most out of your experience after only two sessions, 87% of mind Bloom clients reported improvements in depression and 85% reported improvements in anxiety. It’s time to enter the next chapter in mental health and wellbeing. [00:22:46] Let mind bloom guide you right now. Mind Bloom is offering our listeners $100 off your first six session program when you sign up@mindbloom.com slash Overtired and use the promo code Overtired at checkout. Go to mind bloom.com/ Overtired promo code Overtired for a hundred dollars off your first six session program today. [00:23:08] That’s mind bloom.com/ Overtired. Promo code Overtired. Thank you. Mind bloom Scripted [00:23:15] Brett: Yeah, that was almost a flawless ad read [00:23:17] Jeff: Yeah. Cold. [00:23:19] Brett: people. People won’t know there was a minor edit at the end, but I’m really impressed that was cold for you, [00:23:24] Christina: Yeah, that was completely cool. No, I, I literally was reading it for the first time as I was reading it out loud. [00:23:29] Brett: Very nice. I’m very [00:23:30] Christina: You, you almost, you would almost think that I kind of do this, like reading off a teleprompter shit for a living. [00:23:36] Jeff: That’s awesome. Yeah. It’s funny, scripted stuff for me is it’s like it either works or it doesn’t. Like I, a lot of people don’t realize that like on public radio when the sort of, when your local, like all things considered Host is talking to a reporter about something, they’re just done, right? They’re not playing a story, They’re talking to the reporter that the reporter has typically written that whole q and a. [00:23:57] Right. And it’s, it’s why they can sometimes sound really stiff and, um, there was a reporter, he is no longer there [00:24:03] Brett: written The Q or the A? [00:24:05] Jeff: both. [00:24:06] Brett: Really? This is news to me. Okay. [00:24:09] Jeff: Yeah. So especially in afternoon stuff, you know, if you’re hearing in our case the wonderful Tom Cran, um, talk to, or Steven John talk to a reporter about something they’ve just sort of dug up or whatever. [00:24:21] For the most part, those are, those are scripted out. Okay. Sometimes, you know, recorded ahead of time. So there used to be a reporter at, um, and a host at, at Minnesota Public Radio, Tom Weber, who loved, he was great. He had to leave when his wife became, um, a candidate for Lieutenant Governor. And anyway, once he, I had done a story like that and I had written the thing or whatever, and he and I were in a booth trying to do this and he would ask the questions and I’d start responding from my script. [00:24:48] And there was just this moment that was just not working. And there’s this sweet moment where he just stopped the, stopped the recorder and he just gently grabbed the script from my hands and took it out and laid it on the floor. And then we did the thing and it was fine. [00:25:01] Christina: Aw, [00:25:02] Jeff: It’s just so many there. It’s, it was incredible. [00:25:04] It’s goes back to our conversation about film. It’s just incredible how many unseen, uh, things are happening, um, you know, behind the scenes with these things. It sounds like a cliche almost, but it [00:25:16] Christina: No, but you’re right. No, and I think, I think at least like from what I understand about public radio, and again, I’ve never worked in it, but like editing there is such a huge thing, right? Like the edit is, is such a massive part. But also like to those points, if you’re doing the, the local pickups and whatnot, getting the person comfortable and, and making sure it sounds good, making sure you have the sound bite so that you can edit it into something meaningful. [00:25:40] I don’t know. [00:25:41] Jeff: Yeah, totally. And then how do you even make an interviewee? You do so much of interviewing people who aren’t normally interviewed in public radio. Like I, I still remember like my first week at Minnesota Public Radio and I was, I was sitting in on an interview that this reporter Jeff Jones was doing, and I still have the note page I filled just on what he said to that person in the five minutes before recording. [00:26:05] I mean, there’s all this stuff that I’d never thought I do. I do it in every interview now, things like, Hey, you know, I’m gonna ask you some questions and I might ask you a question and you’ll feel like I already answered that and like, just go ahead and answer it anyhow. It’s okay. We don’t have to, you know, we’re just gonna kind explore a little bit, you know, Or he did this thing like where he’d. [00:26:23] I am not going to, I’m not gonna do a lot of the normal things someone does in a conversation. I’m not gonna go uhhuh. Mm-hmm. , uhhuh, I’m not gonna laugh necessarily. Doesn’t mean that I’m not present. It’s just trying to kind of preserve your voice on the tape. You know, all these things that I just thought, man, such a, there’s such a way, and I’m sure there are reporters that don’t do any of those things, but there are so many ways to sort of hold the process and hold the person in the process. [00:26:47] Um, that I just, I love that shit. Love it. [00:26:50] Christina: Well, and you’re so good at it. I mean, uh, we, we were talking, uh, we were talking earlier about how you’re so good, like, uh, at bringing things out of, of Brett and I, when you talk and like your interview skills are so good, and I think that’s where it has to come from, right? Because you’ve gotten so used to having to interview people. [00:27:05] And record them who are not used to doing that, and make them comfortable and know the right things to bring the right things out. It’s such an incredible skill. I’m so always in awe and like impressed with that. Cause that’s always something I wanna improve myself and, and I That’s that’s really cool. [00:27:21] Jeff: Well, what that same reporter Jeff Jones taught me was you are a stand in for the listener. Like you have to try, you have to be the reporter and the listener at the same time while you’re doing the work. Right. Podcasts are like that too. It’s like we’ve all done that. We’ve all had to catch something and kind of like bring it back for a minute to make sure it all makes sense or, Yeah. [00:27:40] Christina: All right, so, um, before I took us into this digression, which look I’m very ADHD today. Um, Brett is recovering from some things. I don’t know what my deal is [00:27:49] Jeff: I love a good digression, Bitchin’ Apple [00:27:51] Christina: Um, but I was gonna say we wanna get into our, into our apple bitching, uh, segment because we had some really good stuff pre, uh, Prepo, uh, Jeff, uh, bitched to us a a about your, your apple wo. [00:28:04] Jeff: Well, the one here, I’m gonna start with one that I didn’t mention. So I own an iMac Pro, which, you know, up until these latest M one max came out, it was like my favorite computer ever. Um, and, and I had, it was a work computer, so it was, you know, I, I went all the way with it. It’s expensive, you know, somewhere around like five grand or maybe six, I can’t remember. [00:28:26] Um, just a wonderful computer. Um, and a few months back, or maybe a year back, I wanted to put it on a monitor arm. So I had to buy the, like, what is it? Visa? Visa? [00:28:37] Christina: Yeah. You had to get the base of After Kit. Oh [00:28:40] Jeff: Yeah. Which is just, it’s a little square on the, So basically you take the standout, you put the square in the place, $80 to, to buy this thing. [00:28:47] It’s beautiful. I [00:28:48] Christina: And it’s a, but it’s a piece of shit kit. [00:28:51] Jeff: It’s not a great kit. And, and so I, I put that on and then I, I retired it for a little while. Just let it, I let it have a season off this whole computer, right? So I probably haven’t used it in six or seven months. And I realized I wanted it to be running some, just some, uh, file processing stuff, um, processing like a hundred thousand PDFs for investigative project. [00:29:12] And I just wanted it to be over there working. So I’ll put the stand back on it. Okay, so first of all, this is so tedious, but I’m just gonna bring a lot of emotion to it and hope that it makes it less tedious, first of all, just to get the stand off. So if you can picture, it’s, I mean, you guys know, it’s like, it looks like a monitor and then it’s just got a little l stand on it. [00:29:31] L stand goes into the back. If you were to look at it from the back, it’s a beautiful transition. God damn it, you know, great work. You can’t see the screws or how it hooks up or anything. And it turns out that to get it out, you have to use like a credit card or a business card, and you kind of jam it in, in the most like, In elegant way, right? [00:29:50] Like this, this elegant machine that you’re already setting this like $6,000 machine down on its face. You just don’t wanna be doing a lot at that point, right? And so you, you stick a little card in and it pops out just enough so you can remove something like eight of the tiniest screws you’ve ever seen in your life. [00:30:08] And again, it comes out, it’s got all these little holes. It’s beautiful. I mean, for, as a person who likes to make things and even likes to make things with metal, like it’s just, it’s gorgeous, right? But it’s a huge fucking pain in the ass. And so I get the thing out and I go, Well, I hope I never have to put that stand back in. [00:30:24] Spoiler. I had to put that stand back in this weekend. And I thought I, I had all the screws on, I screwed them in just like I had unscrewed ’em. I watched a video, everything, and I get a little card stick in there so I can stick it in and then glide the stand all the way in. And in the course of doing that, I sheer off the heads of all eight of the screws. The screws are now stuck inside of this little mounting bracket without a way to get them out. I try to get those screws out, but I end up nicking up the, the metal, you know, and, and I’m, [00:30:58] Christina: there, there’s, there are these really terrible, um, uh, quality screws of, uh, Quinn from SNA Labs made a video four years ago, uh, called the Apple Storage Genius Bar. Broke my $5,000 [00:31:10] Jeff: I found that after I broke mine. [00:31:12] Christina: Yep. I was gonna say, if you, he’s active on Twitter, you might wanna reach out to him and [00:31:16] Jeff: Maybe I will. Yeah, that’s a [00:31:18] Christina: see if you can get some advice or something. [00:31:19] But also if you took it to the Apple Store, even if you’re out of warranty, they might have to do something for you. But I know that that would mean then you’re, and I don’t have the computer, [00:31:28] Jeff: Well, I wasn’t using the computer anyhow, so I’m I’ll do that. You know what’s crazy is if this, I mean, I don’t know if it’s free, that’s no problem. But if it’s not, if this wasn’t a work computer, I’d be freaking out. Cause like I, this is expensive computer and I, I gummed it all up now. The metal’s all [00:31:45] Christina: Oh yeah, no, totally. Yeah. So, so, so, so, uh, listeners, we’ve got in the show notes links to, uh, Quinn’s two videos because that whole thing, like the way that kit worked, it was really great that they had like a VA kit that you could buy so that you didn’t have to choose at the time. Like my iMac that I’m recording this on, I bought the Vasa version because you have to choose when you, when you buy it. [00:32:07] And so mine is on, um, a stand. The same thing with my studio display is also, I got, I got the base version, uh, because Apple, for whatever reason, Doesn’t let you choose unless you either bought the iMac Pro where they then sold a kit that they sold that had these terrible quality screws. Or, um, you know, if you get like the, the, um, whatever the Apple display is, uh, the, the XDR display, that one you can spend a couple hundred dollars to also get a, a basic hit for. [00:32:36] But um, yeah, like the fact that you, you buy this thing, you know, and it has these, it’s, you know, it’s not even a cheap tool that, as you said, it’s kind of difficult to get on and off, and then the quality of the screws, like they break off and they break off inside the thing, like it’s just terrible. [00:32:52] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. It was crazy. And for me, it’s just one in a, in a line of things like this, where it’s like, I know I’m, I’m, I’m the guy that’s deciding to spend this much money on my computing, uh, you know, passion . But like the other thing that’s happened to me is I have an M one MacBook Pro, which is awesome. [00:33:13] I love it. Love it to death. And I got the cow digit, what is it called? The thunder. [00:33:19] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. The, the TS four, The Thunder Bowl four doc. [00:33:22] Jeff: four doc because like even though thank you Apple, you added a few fucking ports to the computer. I’m really grateful to you. Uh, I still need more. And so I, I waited it out until this cow digit thing was in stock, and now there’s a bug with that thing where it just automatically ejects my, my, uh, fucking drives or it just resets my screens or whatever. [00:33:44] And I’m just like, What world am I living in? I’m definitely not living in a world where I spend 5,000 on machines. Like, [00:33:51] Brett: quick, quick quest. Quick question. When it ejects your drives, does it also remount them? [00:33:56] Jeff: yeah. [00:33:57] Brett: Because I get these, I get all these notifications. You, you’ve unsafely ejected this external drive. But then I go to find her and it’s still connected. Like I just, It like flick flickers. Yeah. [00:34:11] Jeff: Yeah. And then I mean, just add to that, while I’m complaining and I, I really, really understand that I am blessed to have a job that buys me these lovely computers. Um, but I also am someone who feels like when you spend a lot of money, like it should be really worth it. And, and little things like this shouldn’t be the problem. [00:34:29] I also am a user of the Apple Superdrive. [00:34:31] Christina: Mm-hmm. . Oh my God. Yeah. [00:34:33] Jeff: like it. You cannot run that unless you’ve plugged it directly into the computer, but the cow digit does actually have like firmware or a driver rather, that you can do this. It’s like I just have all of these needs that I’m starting to feel crazy. [00:34:47] Christina: Well, no, I mean that, that’s the thing there too, right? Like the Superdrive is kind of a great example. I mean, I don’t think they sell it anymore. It’s an old product. But also there are people who still need to fucking use like, you know, digital media, like especially for the sort of work you do. Like people will often give you things on that sort [00:35:03] Jeff: Yeah, totally. [00:35:04] Christina: and um, [00:35:05] Jeff: do make data backups onto DVDs. [00:35:08] Christina: Yeah, totally. [00:35:10] Jeff: Yeah. [00:35:10] Christina: I’m with you, Jeff. Like I’ll give Apple a pass on a lot of things. Where I won’t is when you spend so much money on the products, like part of the reason you spend the money is because, and people are like, Oh, well, don’t spend it if you don’t have it. No. Part of the thing is, and I say this to somebody who buys expensive things a lot, part of the whole. [00:35:32] Rationale there is that you get to have, you were get an expectation of a higher level of service and a higher level of finish. That is, that is part of the implicit agreement when you do that, right? Because if you didn’t care, then you could have bought any computer, right? Or you could buy any car or any other, you know, any type of like thing, like part of it honestly. [00:35:50] And, and people pay for it. Like my mom is definitely like this, Like one of the reasons you buy things typically from Apple or historically anyway, you know, it’s you, you do it because you know that it’s going to work a certain way and it’s supposed to have a certain level of finish when it doesn’t have that. [00:36:03] And when, if anything, it has like a lesser level of finish, like the basic hit, which is it, it’s not just poor it. Objectively worse than a mon, than, than like a computer that had, you know, vasa thing that anybody would have that, that would cost a fraction of what you paid. Right? So it’s not just that it, that, that it’s not up to like super high standards. [00:36:25] It’s that it is worse than like a hun a hundred dollars monitor that you would get. Right? Like, it, it is worse than that. I, I think that, you know, we are right to be frustrated and, and, um, the same thing I think sometimes with some of the, the software things too is like, okay, I, I, we spent all this money to be in this ecosystem and then things. [00:36:43] Bugs are not solved after, you know, beta is fine, but there are still bugs that are outstanding from, from Monterey, right? Like, there are things that like, haven’t been picked up on. So it’s like, okay, how, how long are we supposed to lay, supposed to wait? Um, the Thunderbolt stuff is, is especially frustrating because, you know, um, cow digit and, and o wc, uh, are, are two of the bigger, more respected like thunderbolt dock makers and the firmware for some of those things because they have to write the drivers themselves, like the software themselves because they’re, you know, these, these chip sets that, that don’t have, you know, drivers typically for, for Mac. [00:37:19] Um, Even though Apple is like partially responsible for the spec, because their things don’t adhere exactly the way they should, there are problems. And then you’re in a weird situation where like, okay, you spent $300 or however much the, the cow digit dock is, um, on a dock, Which again, like you’re blessed to get, but you need it for your work and you buy the dock, to be completely honest, in large part, because the, the computer that you spent $5,000 on didn’t have the necessary reports you needed to do your shop. [00:37:46] So, so you have to buy this third party accessory and then that accessory to maybe, you know, get rid of like the, the disconnect issue and some of those other things needs a firmware update. And the firmware update can only be done from a Windows machine. [00:38:01] Jeff: right, right, [00:38:02] Christina: you know, and, and the company, you know, you know, and like they’re working on, they will have a Mac driver and whatnot, but like, even like, you know, o wc, which their URL is Mac sales, some of their docs, like, it’s the same thing like you have to use, In the past I’ve had to use Windows machines to update the firmware. [00:38:17] It’s not about like, I’m not gonna blame. You know, in some ways, like the, the people who’ve, you know, bought the, the kind of commodity hardware and made this product that, that you need, I’m not gonna blame them completely for this. When Apple, if they cared about this, could either A, offer more ports, uh, b you know, give people more access to people to write the driver for stuff, Right? [00:38:37] Or, or, or c you know, like sell a fucking dock themselves. Right? Like, although I think even if they sold one themselves, you probably still have this shit because you have issues with like fricking superdrive, which doesn’t work with docking stations, which is a problem if you’re trying to use a superdrive with any computer. [00:38:55] You know, that’s not a, that’s not an iMac made sense, you know, uh, 2016 because it doesn’t have a freaking USBC port. So like, you’re gonna have [00:39:03] Jeff: And just to say to all the people out there going, you can, you can get one of the other drives in the world. The thing I love about the super drive is it’s built in such a way, I think it has like a ballast on it or something because it does not vibrate my whole desk. And I, and if I’m, I just like that. [00:39:17] Um, you know, what you’re making me think too is like the, an undercurrent for me in all of this is, is the right to repair stuff where it’s like we all come from a time where you could open your mac up and you could do any number of things to it without removing eight other things. You would open it up and there it all was. [00:39:37] I just recently, I was at the dump and there was a, there was an old iac, like way old, like when it was about three inches thick. Right. And I brought it home just to take it apart and see, and I open it up and I’m like, Man, with a single Phillip screwdriver, I was able to basically like get at everything. [00:39:53] Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:55] Brett: Yeah. Like those old G five s, you could do anything with those old G five s [00:39:59] Jeff: And so this was one of the things about the iMac that was making me so upset was like, I am happy to open that computer up, but, but I looked at the tear down. And in order to get to that hinge [00:40:11] Brett: eight different screwdrivers. [00:40:13] Jeff: Yeah. But in order to get to that hinge, I have to remove many vital pieces of that computer, which has never gone badly for me, but might go badly this time. [00:40:23] And so that’s, [00:40:24] Christina: and, and, and it’s a 27 inch, you know, uh, thing that has a, a heavy piece of paint of glass on top of it. So not, not only do you have to take that off, which will require two people, because if you’ve ever taken those things off, like, I mean, you may one person might be able to do it, I wouldn’t do [00:40:39] Jeff: Yeah, they’re [00:40:39] Christina: Um, there, there are intense and then again, yeah, the pro, this was another reason I was glad I didn’t get the pro, because you can’t upgrade the ram unless you take the whole thing apart. Um, yeah, you basically have to [00:40:49] Jeff: Which by the way, I’m definitely gonna do, [00:40:51] Christina: Yeah, if you, if you’re taking it apart, you might as well upgrade the ram 100%. But it’s like, yeah, you’ve gotta open up every aspect of it and potentially damage this machine, Touch all these like vital parts just so you can fix something that frankly was, in this case, a design problem that Apple made. [00:41:06] Right? Like they, they, they made, they made a shitty decision to cheap out on cheap screws for their, you know, uh, expensive add-on thing and, and like, yeah, I think that that’s, if we were easy to repair then, then it’d be one thing, but they make it so difficult. Yeah. [00:41:23] Jeff: truly listeners, the cheap square you would if you saw how this broke, you would look at it and think it was some cheap ass thing I [00:41:30] Brett: Yeah, like that’s out of all of the complaints that have come up here. The cheap screws are the ones that, to me, are the most egregious because [00:41:38] Jeff: There’s zinc. There’s [00:41:39] Brett: how much are you saving on screws? Like how many pennies, like good screws can’t be that expensive when you’re buying [00:41:48] Jeff: they also know that we’ll pay, they know we’ll pay for the good screws. [00:41:52] Christina: I was gonna say, that’s the thing. It literally, [00:41:54] Brett: the price. [00:41:55] Christina: literally, it’s pennies, but they could add $10 to the price, Right. [00:41:58] Jeff: I assumed I was paying for good screws, frankly, at $80. [00:42:02] Christina: I, I, I agree with you. $80 for a freaking basis after win if, you know, it maybe wouldn’t look as pretty or, or whatever. Although again, fuck it. [00:42:11] Like it’s the back of your computer. If you made, if you made the design outta the box so that you could actually use a vasa thing. Right. Or remove the stand more, more naturally. Like the fact that I had to spend more money on my iMac and, and it was fine, but like, you know, it was, it was an extra charge to get the model that had, uh, the vasa adapter and that if I ever sell this computer, I’m gonna have a harder time selling it. [00:42:33] I’m gonna have to include either the arm, which. Several hundred dollars. Like it’s because it’s, you know, 20 pounds. So I’m using a $300, uh, Tron hx. Right. You know, I’m using, I’m using like one of the, the, the $300 tron, um, uh, arms. Um, you know, I’ll either have to include that or I’ll have to like buy a stand to sell to somebody and they’ll be like, Oh wait, this doesn’t match. [00:42:56] And I’m like, Yeah, but otherwise my alternative would be I [00:43:00] Jeff: C, episode 300. [00:43:02] Christina: Exactly. Otherwise I can’t adjust, you know, the height of, of my, my thing, the same thing with my monitor. I spent $1,600 on this monitor. Um, I’m just gonna continue bitching and then we’ll move on. I’m very sorry, Brett. I spent $1,600 on this [00:43:12] Brett: I have complaints too. I’m waiting. I’m waiting my. [00:43:15] Christina: Okay. [00:43:16] Jeff: You’re in the lobby. [00:43:17] Christina: I spent $1,600 on the studio display. I like it. It’s fine. It is prettier than the LG one that I had earlier. And it works better with some types of machines that I have that are, that are not Max, um, weirdly, although again, still doesn’t have fucking display for it out of the box, which is stupid for $1,600 monitor, but whatever. [00:43:37] But the, the freaking camera on it, the webcam on it is hot garbage. It is so bad. Like the one on my iMac, which is two years older, uh, as a machine is 10 80 p That’s what we’re recording with now. It’s fine. Right. Um, I’m gonna, I don’t know if I can, if I can do this in, um, I don’t think I can change my camera, um, for, for you guys to see it cuz uh, even though I don’t think we’re recording video, but the um, uh, the quality is so terrible for the $1,600 thing that again, I had to buy. [00:44:12] When I made the decision to buy it, I had to, you know, get it without, um, the, with the VAA thing, without the, you know, the stand. Or I could have paid a few extra a hundred dollars more to get an adjustable stand where I still couldn’t turn the monitor. So I’m like, Well, fuck you. I’m buying it with the visa, and then I still have to spend, you know, $200 on, um, a based arm. [00:44:32] Right? So it’s like, I, I spend all this money on this thing that’s marginally better than a product that came out five years earlier that, uh, was cheaper. [00:44:43] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:44] Christina: know, part of this is on me, but, but at the same time, I also feel like, okay. But if I’m going to spend all this money on this monitor for this experience and whatnot, could the camera not be hot garbage? [00:44:54] Could you have even put the camera that was in, like the seven 20 P camera that was in the previous gin MacBook would’ve been better than the camera that’s in this thing, let alone the 10 80 p camera. That’s in the new ones. But frankly, why could you not just put the one that’s in the iMac? Make it slightly thicker. [00:45:12] I don’t fucking care. Right. Like if you actually care. [00:45:15] Brett: Didn’t they make a big deal out of the camera in the studio like it was supposed to be. [00:45:21] Christina: It’s, it’s, it’s awful. It, it’s, it’s, it’s so bad. Um, [00:45:25] Brett: because Apple knows cameras, like iPhone cameras are outstanding. [00:45:28] Christina: what they did is they used, they used an iPad camera and, and then, and oh, this is the shittiest part too. They use an iPad camera and they have the, the stupid, um, like a, what is it that the stage, um, mode, whatever the mode is where like, like, like, like centers [00:45:43] Brett: Follows you around. [00:45:44] Christina: Yeah, yeah. Which, which is, which is terrible. So that’s what they’re doing. And because of that, there’s an M one chip, M one chip in this monitor. That means that if you, anytime you need to update it or anything, you have to like update firmware on the monitor, but you have to install it on your Mac and there’s no power off button. [00:46:02] There’s [00:46:02] Jeff: of the iPod. [00:46:03] Christina: there, there’s, there’s no way to turn this off. So, um, what I did, I, I took, uh, I took a cue from John Gruber where I bought, um, uh, like an Alexa and, and um, home kit powered, uh, plug and plugged my monitor into that. And then I can use a switch if I need to turn the monitor off. But otherwise, literally, if you wanna power cycle the monitor, you have to fucking unplug it. [00:46:25] There’s no power button. [00:46:27] Brett: Huh. [00:46:28] Jeff: It’s almost as if we arrived in the, in the current day from the past, and we’re just trying to make sense of what new technology is out there these days. [00:46:37] Christina: Well, it’s almost like, you know, we spend a lot of money on products and we expect a certain experience, and again, I’m getting a shitty experience compared to something that would cost, you know, a, a, a fifth of what I’ve paid. Anyway, I’m, I’m done with my rant. Brett. Please rant on [00:46:51] Brett: I will keep it short. We’re, we are over [00:46:53] Christina: way over. I’m very sorry. [00:46:55] Brett: and, and maybe at this point Jeff has kindly edited out some of, especially like my rants. [00:47:00] Jeff: Are you talking to me in the future right [00:47:02] Brett: yes, You in the future. Anything I said up until this point, feel free to edit. Also this like, you can cut me outta this episode entirely. Um, [00:47:10] Christina: You can cut a shitload of my stuff out. To be completely honest, I don’t care. [00:47:13] Brett: My sonology, uh, is a replacement. I was two months past warranty when the reset button on it failed and it started resetting, and they were kind enough to forgive me and replace it for free. Um, yeah, great. Guess what’s happening right now? [00:47:33] Christina: It’s the reset button’s not working [00:47:35] Brett: The reset button is faulty, and now I am a year out of warranty, and there’s no help for me. [00:47:41] So I’m like, All right. I, I wanted a faster model with, uh, like nme, ssd, Overhead CAEs. Um, so I’ve been wanting to do that anyway, and I wanted a model that could run Docker, which my model can’t. Um, so this is like, I was ready to make this purchase. But now I am going until October 11th with no access to my Sonology, um, and no access to Plex, which means all of my comfort shows that I have carefully ripped. [00:48:11] I cannot, I have to pay iTunes 30 bucks to watch Big Bang now. Um, and, and it’s, it’s a little frustrating that it’s the exact same problem that I had before. And here’s the kicker. The, the newest analogies are AMD chips that cannot transcode video. So you can’t run a plex [00:48:34] Christina: Right, [00:48:35] Jeff: Are you serious? [00:48:36] Brett: so I had to buy the 2020 version of the Five Bay, uh, because they, moving forward, they have no plans to enable video transcoding, [00:48:49] Jeff: Oh my God, [00:48:49] Christina: I mean, you [00:48:50] Jeff: There goes half their [00:48:51] Christina: No, you can still transcode. It’s just, it’s a lot slower. [00:48:54] Brett: Um, so what I’m thinking of doing is I have a couple extra Mac Minis, including an M one Mac Mini that needs to be wiped. Um, I could use that as a front end. Use this analogy for storage and use a Mac as a front end. [00:49:10] Christina: Yeah. We’re not, we’re not, we’re, we’re not. We’re not using a Mac for that, but we’re using like a, another computer end because our sonology is from like 2012 or 2013, so it’s really old. So at this point we couldn’t do anything off of it. So it’s just a storage array. And then, um, just using like the front end, you know, to do the transcoding and the other stuff. [00:49:30] So we’ve got like a server on the closet that’s, that’s handling that stuff. So yeah. That, that would work. But that’s unfortunate about that. I, I, I knew that they, the AMD thing was a problem. I, because I wanna get a new Sonology system. I really like Sonology, yet, I haven’t wanted to switch brands, but I’ve actually been looking at Qnap and, and some of the other [00:49:48] Brett: We talked about that a while back. Yeah. [00:49:50] Christina: did. [00:49:51] Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s unfortunate. And I’m sorry that it broke again. Um, and I assumed that like they don’t have any sort of, um, like, um, [00:50:01] Brett: They told me they wouldn’t even be able to service it even if I wanted to pay for it. [00:50:07] Christina: fuck. [00:50:08] Brett: It’s, they’re just done with this model cuz it’s like a 2015 and apparently that’s ancient tech for them. They’re, they’ve already moved on, They move on apparent like by yearly. [00:50:19] Christina: they do. But that’s still unfortunate. [00:50:22] Brett: they sunset products pretty damn fast for what they cost. [00:50:26] I feel like they should have a longer serviceable. [00:50:30] Christina: No, I totally agree with that. Because the, the thing is, is that like theology, especially, especially the one like the five or the eight bay ones are in this weird category where because of how much they cost, like it is, you could use it in a home, but a lot of people who are gonna be using it are like smaller businesses, right? [00:50:46] Like, it’s gonna be like more, which to me indicates, okay, well then you should at least have some sort of enterprise support thing. And if you were to say, you know, this, this storage device for a Naza whatnot is only gonna have, you know, five years of, of support, um, People who spend many times the amount that, so costs would like laugh in their face. [00:51:07] Right. Because that’s just not the expectation. And, and so are expensive. So that’s it. It’s, it’s weird to me that they, they don’t do that, you know? [00:51:16] Brett: saving, the saving grace. Like I got burned by Drobo. I lost a few terabytes of my life to Drobo. Um, but uh, with analogy, if you get the right raid controller, [00:51:29] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:51:30] Brett: You can plug in your, your sayta drives from your sonology and you can recover your data. Even if sonology were to close up shop and disappear like that data, I can’t remember which rate it is and it uses a special file system, but, uh, it is possible. [00:51:48] I know that with a couple hundred dollars for a controller, you can recover your data. [00:51:55] Brett 2: So I have a new sonology on the way. I got the NME SSD drive. It already. I, I spent, you know, well over a thousand dollars to, to fix the situation and I can only pray that the fucking reset button doesn’t go faulty after a year. [00:52:13] Jeff: a silly thing to have to pray for [00:52:15] Brett 2: Yeah, [00:52:15] Christina: real. I mean, I mean, you could, I mean, [00:52:18] Brett 2: like shitty [00:52:18] Christina: depending on what credit card you bought it on, like you could maybe like get like a two year warranty or something, but that still doesn’t solve like the underlying problem, which is when this is your backup system, you don’t want the reset button to break. [00:52:29] Right. Because then it’s like, I can’t trust [00:52:31] Brett 2: That seems like a pretty, a pretty simple, like, especially if it’s a known issue, which clearly it is, they, they should have solved it. And I, I can only hope that on the newer models they have taken care of this obviously repeat issue. [00:52:45] Christina: Yeah. I hope so. Grapptitude! [00:52:47] Brett 2: Are we gonna fit in a gratitude? This is gonna be a, this is gonna be pretty rapid fire. [00:52:51] Christina: Yep. [00:52:52] Jeff: so for me, I’m, I’m choosing the Arduino i d e. So, um, you know, back to the, the thousand dollars, many thousand dollars computers. I also really like to play with $30 Microcontrollers, um, and, uh, and Arduinos, for anybody that doesn’t know, are just really simple little, essentially little tiny computers that can allow you to, you know, build projects. [00:53:16] Uh, people build robots, people build sensors, uh, weather stations, whatever, a million different things. And, um, and I’ve always loved them, but the ide. Really just about, since I got into our, do we know like seven or eight years ago or more, Uh, has been a little, has felt just outta date. It just doesn’t, the resolution’s a little goofy and they just updated their ide and, and just to give you an idea of like how, like long and overdue, some really annoying fixes were, these are some of the highlights. [00:53:47] So they added auto complete so that when you’re coding your code can auto complete and a lot of people had ditched, including Mia ditched they Arduino IDE for like, you know, Visual Studio Code can, has a, you know, Arduino package and [00:54:01] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say I was, I used, I’ve been using VS code with it. I didn’t even know they had an ide to be honest with [00:54:06] Jeff: So yeah, so they added auto complete, they added a debugging tool and the serial monitor, which is like when you’re doing our DOO stuff, you wanna be seeing what’s going on through a serial monitor. But it’s always been a popup and there was no other way to have it. And now it’s like integrated into the ide. [00:54:23] So it’s like, these are silly thing. Oh, a dark mode [00:54:27] Christina: Nice. [00:54:28] Jeff: Um, it, but it is, I mean, so I don’t mean to give them shit really because they did a really great job, um, with this new version and [00:54:35] Brett 2: it is your gratitude pick. So [00:54:37] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. And I’m excited to work with it. And while we’re talking about apps taking way too long for dark mode, last night I opened up the New York Times in bed. We have just instituted dark mode. I was like, Are you fucking kidding me? I don’t read it at night. Cause like it’s too bright. It’s like it took this long, new times. You can’t mode [00:54:55] Christina: I was gonna say, I was gonna say, New York Times, New York fucking times. The only media company to successfully not only transition to digital, like fucking kill every other digital company. They’ve grown, right? Like, like they’re, they make so much money. Their, their digital enterprise is great. [00:55:08] And then they’re like, Oh yeah, finally dark mode. And we’re like, [00:55:11] Jeff: Dark mode. I was like, Oh my God, you gotta be fucking kidding me. Anyway, uh, so that’s but gratitude, gratitude for dark mode in the New York Times app as well. Um, and all love to everybody over there, [00:55:25] Brett 2: If you ever need a dark mode hat for a website and you’re willing to run like a Grease Monkey plugin, I’ll fix it for you. [00:55:32] Jeff: Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. That really sounded, uh, really sounded like we just made some kind of shady deal. [00:55:38] Brett 2: Some kind of back room deal. Yeah. I could fix this for you, but it’ll cost you [00:55:43] Jeff: Yeah. Who’s next? [00:55:45] Brett 2: what you got. [00:55:46] Christina: All right, so my pick is Lot Terminal, which is a, um, a brand new iOS app from Miguel Deza and, uh, Joseph, uh, Hall, uh, Joseph Hill, sorry. Um, who, um, is, uh, you know, Miguel is the creator, Ofo and, uh, Mono, which was like the, you know, open source implementation of, um, do. And, uh, he created Zin, which, you know, was one of the first kind of like big popular, like multi-platform like, uh, you know, tools to do things. [00:56:17] He’s also a longtime Mac fan. He created Midnight Commander back in the day, which was [00:56:20] Brett 2: Oh [00:56:21] Christina: open source thing of, of, you know, Norton Commander, you know, he’s, he’s Miguel is, is is a amazing guy. And, um, uh, we used to work together. Uh, and, and he’s, uh, he left Microsoft, uh, not that long ago, but, uh, I think right before I did. [00:56:35] But he, um, you know, is like a true like OG hacker, right? Like the guy created fucking goodo, right? And, um, he created this app called The Terminal, which is an iOS terminal ator. And it is awesome. It is a really great experience for, uh, you know, uh, iPhones and iPads. It’s based. A, uh, a swift term, which is a, a package that he built and open sourced, um, uh, and it’s on GitHub. [00:57:00] Uh, that’s the basis for a lot of the stuff that he has. Um, but, uh, the law terminal has some other kind of niceties. It has like iCloud support. It’s, um, you know, has like secure enclaves. So you can create SSH keys using the secure enclave on it. Um, and you can, um, like you can do things like have live backgrounds and inline graphics and you know, you can choose which sort of font you want. [00:57:23] There are themes built in. It works great. I love it. It works really well with, uh, with, with tail scale. So if you’re wanting to like remotely log into machines that are on that, you can do it. Um, it’s great. So I, uh, this is my pick, uh, law terminal. We’ve got links in the show notes. It’s free and it is, um, it’s lovely. [00:57:42] It’s just, it’s a really well made app and it’s also just like, uh, you know, kind of a love letter to everything that Miguel has kind of built his whole career. So, props to Miguel and, and props to Joseph for building it and for opensourcing, like, you know, swift term, which is like the underlying, um, uh, you know, stuff underneath it. [00:58:00] And, um, just, yeah, just like [00:58:03] Jeff: Awesome. Yeah, it’s got snippets. I love the like single button key generations, like it’s very fun. [00:58:10] Brett 2: All right. I am gonna keep it short. Um, I term, if you use terminal like every, every week when we do this, I look at what I’ve been using most that week and I have been. Terminal nonstop for the last few days. And I term is a pleasure and it is so handy, powerful and flexible that I became a GitHub supporter of it. [00:58:35] I pay a subscription fee to use. I term, My name shows up. If you go to the About panel, my name’s in there. Um, I’m, I’m, I’m pretty proud to be a, an eye term supporter. Um, but really what, what is there to say? Anyone who knows Terminal knows, eye term, runner up, pick Warp. I, [00:58:55] Christina: a. [00:58:56] Brett 2: I’ve actually been doing a little writing for the Warp Team, um, side gig. [00:59:02] Uh, and, uh, so in the process of needing screenshots, I’ve needed to use Warp and. It misses the mark on a lot of the things I love about I term, but it nails some new technologies, like in terminal, uh, notes, markdown notes that you can execute the way, how it does. Um, like that my tool has it, um, uh, blocks like you can jump through the output of your recent commands with single key strokes. [00:59:35] Um, and you can share those blocks with other people. You can share entire terminal sessions. Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty hot. So that’s my runner up pick is warp. [00:59:45] Christina: Yeah, Warp is great. Um, [00:59:47] Brett 2: worth checking out and free right now. [00:59:49] Christina: yeah, I, I think that their model is, I think they’re gonna like charge for teams. I think. [00:59:53] Brett 2: They, yeah, they wanna charge for enterprise and like, I actually, I had applied just to see what would happen with them, um, for [01:00:02] Christina: Yeah. I, I get, [01:00:03] Brett 2: position. [01:00:04] Christina: I was gonna say, I referred you for that job. [01:00:06] Brett 2: Yeah. Yeah. You pointed me to this in the, [01:00:08] Christina: No, but I also sent them an email. I also sent them an email as a referral. [01:00:12] Brett 2: Oh, I didn’t know that. Um, but [01:00:16] Christina: they had a thing where they were like, Refer someone. Yeah. [01:00:18] Brett 2: came down to brass tax, they have like a four year runway. [01:00:22] And I don’t have a lot of faith that even a top notch terminal program can make a profit as an enterprise solution when there are so many, so much competition in the market. Um, so I didn’t, I didn’t leave my cush Oracle job to go work for a strappy startup. [01:00:43] Christina: I think they’re an acquisition target. Like I would think that they would be the sort of thing where if you, if you turn this into service whatnot, like if, if you’re an aws, if you’re a GitHub, if you’re a, a JetBrains or you know what I mean? Like I could see, I could see somebody buying it. Um, because it is a really cool product. [01:01:00] I agree with you. Like I, I, I, like, I still, it’s so funny cuz I still typically use I term two for almost everything, but I really do like warp. Um, [01:01:09] Brett 2: Yeah, I’ve been running them side by side. It’s actually, it actually, it comes pretty close to competing with I [01:01:16] Christina: it really does. And, and which I never thought I’d say, have you used Fig? [01:01:21] Brett 2: Um, yeah, I, I tried figure out, but it felt too invasive and like it didn’t immediately click for me, and then I felt like I had too much shit running and, and I gave up on it. I feel like there’s a lot of potential there. Um, and in when I was interviewing with Warp, like we talked about fig, because what FIG is doing absolutely makes sense for something like Warp to, to [01:01:48] Christina: No. Yeah. Yeah. So, so for people who aren’t familiar, FIG is basically, it’s, it does some of the similar things to Warp, not quite as, as advances and have like the notes and whatnot, but it, it does it inside the terminal that you’re already using. So it, it’s kind of like a service that sits on top of it. [01:02:03] There can be some latency and there can be, I’m with you Brett. Like, there have been some things where I’m just like, it takes just a little bit too long or feels too heavy for maybe what I want, but I love what it’s doing. So it’s kind of like, in a lot of ways, I think like Fig is better than doing a lot of like the, oh my Osh like setups that people do where they overload it with plugins and that’s really slows if you wanna talk about shit that’s gonna slow down your, your terminal, that’s gonna fucking bring it to its [01:02:28] Jeff: Yeah, I don’t do, I don’t do the, Oh, my ssh. [01:02:30] Christina: Yeah. Well, I. [01:02:31] Jeff: It’s too much. I like it actually, but [01:02:34] Christina: like it too. I, I, I’ve found some that are, are like really like low, you know, like small number of, of plugins that, but, but FIG does gets you a lot of that shit out of the box and, and, and is more performance. So I like, it’s kind of one of those things where you, you can envision like a world where you could have like something like Warp, but with like, you know, but package like, like fig, you know what I mean? [01:02:57] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Terminals. [01:02:59] Brett 2: everyone could just make command line tools easier to use. [01:03:02] Christina: Yeah. Actually, uh, AC [01:03:04] Brett 2: So we would, we wouldn’t need a hundred tools to make them work. [01:03:07] Christina: yeah, actually I’m gonna be doing a live stream with, uh, the team from Charm, um, in a couple weeks. Um, and, uh, if anybody’s familiar with the charm dot, if you’re talking about wanting to build command line tools, make look glamorous, it’s, it’s a bunch of, uh, Ruby libraries, or not Ruby, a bunch of go libraries that are really, really good. [01:03:26] Um, and, uh, uh, I think I’ve mentioned them on, um, The, I think I’ve mentioned charm on, on gratitude before, but if not, um, that’s another one. But yeah, the, I, I’m with you Brett. Like everybody can make like better command line tools, but, uh, so everybody should, should, should adopt a charm. [01:03:44] Jeff: Well, it’s great to see y’all here for number 300, not number 300. Yeah, number [01:03:48] Christina: Yeah. Number 300. Yeah. [01:03:50] Jeff: Not the 300th episode, but [01:03:51] Christina: But it is number 300. Exactly. [01:03:53] Jeff: Uh, you guys get some sleep [01:03:56] Brett 2: Get some sleep, Jeff. [01:03:57] Christina: Get some sleep. Jeff and Brett. [01:03:59] Brett 2: Get some sleep. Christina. [01:04:03] Jeff: Mm [01:04:03] Outtro: The system is. [01:04:09] Stinger: Hey, there are good people Before you go, we have a bunch of new places where you can. Act with us. Please check out our Instagram feed, our YouTube channel, Twitter of course, and sign up for the Overtired newsletter, which will sort of pick up where the show leaves off with expanded show notes, Uh, a little bit of what the three of us get up to between episodes. [01:04:32] And let’s face it, there’ll be some musings. How can you resist musings? You’ll find details for all the ways to interact with us in the show notes and at Overtired dot com. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you as always for listening.

Rabbi Eric Linder joins Brett and Jeff to talk band names, frameworks of understanding, spiritual atheism, and some real good apps. Sponsor ZocDoc lets you choose a doctor using real patient ratings, and book appointments (live or telehealth) in minutes. No more waiting on hold. Take your healthcare seriously and visit zocdoc.com/OVERTIRED. Show Links Rabbi Eric Linder Klezmer Local 42 Max Richter — Sleep Helen, Georgia GoVee Lighting howzit MailMate Preside PDFExpert Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jeffreyguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript An Invitation to the In-Between Brett: [00:00:00] Hello. I am Brett Terpstra. You are listening to Overtired. I, it was in a tribute to, to the queen. I just, I figured, I figured I’d do a, a Python, a Python tribute to the, to the queen. Um, jeffrey_merged: Yeah. Very slowly. Silently. Exactly. Brett: I’m, I’m Brett Terpstra. You’re listening to Overtired. I am here as always with Jeff Severns Guntzel. Uh, Christina Warren has the week off. She got her vaccine and is recovering, uh, from a couple nights of insomnia that I think we can all relate to. We have a special guest this week. We are joined by rabbi Eric out of Athens, Georgia home of REM. How’s it going, Eric? jeffrey_merged: good to, and I’m, I’m meeting you for the first time. I’ve heard you [00:01:00] on Brett’s podcast, but Naming bands is hard Eric: And nice to meet you, Jeff I and, uh, and, the B 50 twos and KLAS local 42, my jeffrey_merged: The Brett: Yes. Eric is in a band called KLAS local. Is it 42 or Eric: 42. Brett: What does the 42 refer Eric: It’s just the uh, the lead of the band wanted a name that sounded like a labor union. So he just jeffrey_merged: What was the band thinking? Fellers union, uh, back from the nineties, there was another band Brett: Street sweepers. No. jeffrey_merged: That’s a great name. It’s a great name. Eric: Oh, I have a, I have a, I have a, note, uh, filled with band titles. Like jeffrey_merged: oh yeah, Eric: I, I, have like dozens, dozens. Brett: That is the hardest part jeffrey_merged: thing in the world. That’s like, it’s amazing. Any band survives naming itself? Brett: so I had a band in high school that was called Moom man auto, which isn’t a horrible name, but it, it came about because we had spent weeks. [00:02:00] Arguing over what we should call our band. And eventually we had a chemistry book and the authors of the book were Moom man and Otto, and we’re like, fuck it. We’re that’s, that’s our name? jeffrey_merged: like an academic paper reference. Brett: with two man with two ends. And we kept that. We kept it like straight up Moom man auto jeffrey_merged: That’s amazing. That’s good. Like, um, my wife and I were, were reminiscing of the, the heyday of the very long band name. Like, um, I love you, but I have chosen darkness or there was a band in, which is an amazing name. There was a band in Minneapolis called Siegels screaming. Kiss her, kiss her Normalize sleeping at shows Brett: or God speed. You black Eric: I That’s the one I was just thinking of. Yep. jeffrey_merged: Yeah. I mean Brett: felt I fell asleep at that show. jeffrey_merged: Well, that’s actually nice sleeping music in my Brett: it is, it is. I got those, uh, the, the seats at front row behind the glass up by the bar.[00:03:00] jeffrey_merged: Ooh. Brett: Uh, what did I did I say at first a jeffrey_merged: yeah, yeah. Brett: first a that, that sounded weird in my head. jeffrey_merged: didn’t say a club. I don’t think, but I could be Brett: at first Ave up, uh, behind the plexiglass on the, on the, on the balcony level. Um, and I just sat there in a bar stool and fell asleep and it was a pleasant nap. I, I can’t complain. I like, I like got speed. Just jeffrey_merged: the, the idea of like napping at shows is really, we’ve really missed a chance culturally, to make that a norm. Like, I just feel like I’ve fallen asleep. I love going to see classical music and I will often fall asleep at some point. And it’s the nicest little nap in the world. Eric: An expensive one, but I jeffrey_merged: super expensive. Well, I’m awake for most of it, you know, but they always play a couple things. You didn’t come for, you know, like any band Brett: it’s PLE it’s pleasant to wake up and realize you’re in the middle of a, a, show you wanted to see. It’s a, it’s a great way to wake. jeffrey_merged: that [00:04:00] is max Richter has a, the composer has an album called sleep. That’s a, that’s the actual composition is like 24 hours long and Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. jeffrey_merged: And the idea is you do go and you sleep to it. Um, which is just like, awesome. Eric: I feel like it’s in an app literally called sleep. I could jeffrey_merged: there is actually an app for it. Yeah, totally. Brett: we need to add this show. No, it’s max Richter. jeffrey_merged: Max Richter sleep. Yeah. I mean, I actually was just, I just took a, uh, late morning nap to it cause I was feeling a little under the weather. It’s my napping. Totally. My napping music. Anyway, Eric, um, people who have listened to Brett podcasts have, have met you before, but I was wondering if you could kind of introduce yourself, Meet Rabbi Eric Linder (again) Eric: Yeah. So, uh, I’m a rabbi in Athens, Georgia. I’ve been here 10 years, uh, decided to be a rabbi. The, the, the joke I tell people is when I realized I would not be the saxophonist for James Brown, I decided to be a rabbi, but, uh, jeffrey_merged: so, [00:05:00] Eric: right. It was one or the other, no, nothing else. Uh, I started college as a music major on saxophone. And, um, you know, I grew up what I’ll call fairly mainline reform Judaism. So reform Judaism is a, is a denomination of Judaism that, uh, leans more to the liberal side. And I was active in youth group. And I, I, I made friends in Hebrew school. I went to undergrad at university of Florida and got involved in some Jewish activities there with Hillel and other things like that. But it was really when I went to a summer camp, which is actually just about an hour from Athens in near a small town called Helen Georgia. Have either of you been there by chance? jeffrey_merged: no. Eric: It’s a weird little town. It’s a very touristy, it’s like a, it looks like a Bulgarian. Dollhouse has come to life and you’re walking around in it, like Google pictures of Helen, Georgia. You’ll jeffrey_merged: Okay. Okay. Eric: Um, and lots of like fudge places and funnel cakes and jeffrey_merged: Yeah. [00:06:00] Okay. I get it. I get it. I’m starting to a, picture’s starting to form. Eric: you go. Um, and so there’s a Jewish summer camp, uh, very close to there that I went to as a counselor. And that kind of started this journey for me. And now I’ve been a rabbi 16 years, I think. jeffrey_merged: 16 years. Eric: yeah, it’s crazy. Uh, started in Omaha, Nebraska at a synagogue. There had a wonderful jeffrey_merged: way I, I have, most of my working life is spent in Omaha. Eric: Oh, funny. jeffrey_merged: you where we’re in Omaha. Eric: Oh, right. I mean right in the heart of it, I was, uh, in Dundee. jeffrey_merged: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Eric: and still have lots of good friends there and, uh, keep in touch with folks. And then I moved here to Athens and like two weeks after I moved here, I met the woman. That would be my wife, which is hysterical because I, Athens is the smallest Jewish community I’ve ever lived in. So like, it, it is, I mean, I, I went to rabbinical school in New York, New York city, and then Omaha is about 5,000 Jews. And then [00:07:00] Athens, nobody, if you don’t count students, it’s probably 500 or so. I mean, nobody really knows, of course. And you know, I had this vision of being on J date and like driving to Atlanta, you know, once or twice a week, going on these blind dates and was not excited about that prospect. And, you know, I met Emily, uh, through a congregant at a retirement party and now we have two kids and that That’s it, jeffrey_merged: That’s Brett: Was it, one of those, you, you need to meet my, my neighbor or my daughter kind of Eric: No. She walked into this party and I was, and I asked, um, the person who retired his wife, I said, Lauren, do you know who this woman is? She said, yes. And she’s recently single and Jewish and stereotypically, my wife does not present as looking Jewish. She’s tall blonde hair, blue eyes. So, um, jeffrey_merged: Yeah. Awesome. So you’re like, yes. Okay. Yes, the signals were not there, but now I know. Where, where did [00:08:00] you go to school? In New York. Eric: It’s so it’s called Hebrew union college is the seminary and it’s right by NYU, downtown fourth and Broadway jeffrey_merged: My, um, My, wife went to union theological seminary up near Columbia Eric: sure. jeffrey_merged: and, uh, and took some classes across the street. Um, at the what, what is the school across Eric: J JTS. jeffrey_merged: the JTS. Yeah. Jewish theological Eric: what did, what did she take there? Like what jeffrey_merged: She, um, well she was studying theologies of evil and, uh, and also feminist theology. Uh she’s like she likes to party, you know, Eric: Well, it’s like my wife’s specialty is PTSD and sexual trauma. It’s jeffrey_merged: See. Yeah. Yeah. So I can picture already the books that lay around the house. Like that was, I remember when she, we had our first child living in New York city when she was still in school. And, um, and, and it was almost like he was waiting for her to finish this paper on evil. It was just literally just a paper on evil. And, um, and she had a book laying [00:09:00] around that. Just the biggest word you could see on it was just evil, you know, and she’s like waiting for this baby to come. And it was like, as soon as she handed in that paper, she started going into labor and within hours we were in a taxi going to the hospital. I was like, just needed that, that evil paper Eric: That’s right. Just get it out. Get it. jeffrey_merged: don’t wanna bring that into the whole labor process. Anyhow. That’s awesome. Eric: the Odyssey is one of my favorite Tencent words that, you know, jeffrey_merged: a good tenent word, that’s a 25% word, but you, okay. So you’re a rabbi and I’m looking at you and, and like Brett, you have framed black and white pictures in musical instruments behind you. Um, so can you tell, tell me, tell us a little bit about that. Eric: Yeah. So, you know, music has always been huge for me. I mean, I, I, honest to God, remember when I was in sixth grade and going to like the, some open house for people interested in band, and I picked out the saxophone purely because it had a lot of buttons and I just, I liked the mechanics of it. And, [00:10:00] um, I’ve always found joy in listening to music, learning about music, certainly playing it. Uh, it’s a huge part of what draws me to Judaism, what both drew me in and in terms of, I guess, how I present Judaism, if that makes sense, you know, through music and, and through musical teachings. Um, so yeah, I have this studio in my basement. It’s it’s, as my wife likes to make fun. It’s one of my man caves that she’s allowed me. Um, but yeah, it’s a lot of fun down here. A lot of electronic keyboards and drums and, and stuff jeffrey_merged: Yeah. What’s the other cave. Eric: So the other cave is, yeah, well, so next to it is, well, it, it could be my study. It’s, it’s, it’s become a bourbon room just to my left that uh, that’s it’s the combination of pandemic and children somehow that. Um, and then I have a, a whole video game. Well, it’s, it’s the general playroom, but, [00:11:00] um, jeffrey_merged: all right, hold on. Let’s just, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about the video game room. Brett: I wanna, I wanna point out one thing because nobody can see it, but the lighting in the man cave, you’re currently in with all the musical instruments, you have some like maybe Scots lighting going on. It’s gorgeous. you have the best jeffrey_merged: It’s true. It’s true. Brett: ever seen. Eric: that you say that Brett, because it’s because a lot of bulbs are they’re all BR 30, like flood lights. But literally there’s only three on, because they’re all burned out. The electrician was here last week. Brett: It looks beautiful. Eric: speaking of like stereotypical Jewish guy that doesn’t know anything about, you know, electronics. I have the electrician here thinking like it’s some complicated mistake with wiring. He’s like, these bulbs are bad. jeffrey_merged: Oh, right, Eric: Here’s $150 to tell me that. Thank you. jeffrey_merged: That’s amazing. And a little bourbon. That’s incredible. Okay. So you have a, a video game room. It is. It is. How old are your kids? Eric: at two and a half in six [00:12:00] months. jeffrey_merged: So this is truly your video game room. Let’s hear about it. Eric: but it will be theirs. It will. jeffrey_merged: sure. Of course. That’s why That’s uh, it’s it’s under that, that you, uh, build it, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. I build this future for my children. Um, so what’s the what’s what’s what would I see if I walk in Eric: Oh yeah. I mean, Xbox PlayStation. Um, I’ve been playing with, uh, you know, about the Phillips hubs. So I have a sync box. So if I’m really feeling geeky, I can sync the lights to the TV and the jeffrey_merged: Nice, nice. That’s awesome. Do you have the, do you have the PlayStation five or do you have me too, but nobody else it’s like my, my poor teenagers are like, I wanna play with people on this thing, but nobody has it. Eric: Yeah. So we’re, we’re in Jeff. Let, let, jeffrey_merged: yes. do it. You gotta get got lucky. Got lucky. Um, do you do any, do you mess with any vintage video game stuff? Eric: like, like jeffrey_merged: gaming either? Just like, yeah. Any, any [00:13:00] interpretation of Eric: yeah, so I have emulators, I actually have an arcade cabinet that I, I got from myself. Um, Brett: the question right there is, do you have an arcade Eric: or something. Yeah. jeffrey_merged: yeah. I, um, hold on. I’m gonna grab something, Eric: Yeah. Tell me everything. Brett: while, while he’s running off, have you seen the go V lighting stuff? Eric: No. Brett: It’s super affordable compared to hu. And you can like hook it up to a microphone and have like rope lights and, and back lights, all like dance to music. It’s actually really good. Eric: Go V. Brett: G O V Eric: Okay, look, look it up. jeffrey_merged: So I built this for my kids out of a like ancient electronics project box, uh, that I got at this amazing surplus store called Axman in town. And everybody I’m just holding up like kind of a joy, it’s a joystick with a bunch of bunch of buttons and it actually has a. Eric: fighter. Uh, jeffrey_merged: has [00:14:00] that look. And it has like a seven inch screen that, uh, is actually normally hooked up to it. But I’m upgrading it. Brett: to a 10 inch. jeffrey_merged: uh, no, I’m upgrading the electronics inside and, and putting speakers in and Eric: so is it a raspberry pie or jeffrey_merged: yeah, it has a raspberry pie in it. I’m totally obsessed, um, with them anyway. Well, you have a lot of fun rooms in your house. Um, that’s great. Eric: yes. So that’s something else that right when I got here, um, met now a very dear friend, who’s the one of the, uh, heads of our band and found out I played sex and I sat in with the band and, and it’s great, cuz there’s obviously overlap culturally with Judaism, but you know, a lot of congregants come to our shows and it’s just a nice way to integrate with the community and, and be involved in the music scene and all that stuff jeffrey_merged: That’s awesome. So how did you and Brett meet. Eric: we met because I annoyed him on Twitter. I think I just had Brett: sounds about right. Eric: OmniFocus questions, [00:15:00] automation, Brett: Yeah. You hired Eric: apple script. Brett: you, you you hired me as a consultant for some of your crazier scripting stuff. And eventually, like, it got to a point where I was like attending your temple services and I wasn’t charging you anymore. Eric: Yeah, Jeff, be careful. well, yeah, I mean, I think I was asking you all these questions and you were so nice and responding and I just, I was like, you know what, rather than like one at a time and, you know, ignoring you at all hours, can I hire you for an hour and, you know, pay you for this expertise is jeffrey_merged: I basically did the same thing. Brett: is the way you worm your way into Brett’s life is, uh, jeffrey_merged: That’s how you end up on his podcast. I also like the idea that apple script is like the gateway to converting to Judaism. I mean, you all know how someone says they’re doing apple script, you know what they mean? Eric: that’s somewhere jeffrey_merged: yeah, that’s right. That’s right. [00:16:00] Well, should we do, uh, should we do our mental health corner? Brett: Yeah, let’s let’s let’s do that. And then we’ll, we’ll hit a sponsor then, then I kind of wanna talk about like an atheist attending temple. Mental Health Corner jeffrey_merged: perfect. Sounds good. Um, it’s a, it doesn’t have to be, how is your mental health? It can be a mental health checking of any sort. Uh, you, you wanna start you, are you feeling, are you feeling really brave? Eric? Eric: I mean, I, I could start, I I’ve listened to you all a few times. I, I. um, I have a sense of what’s happening even regardless of my mental health. Um, so we’re actually, it’s a, we’re actually in a, a super interesting time in the Jewish calendar. Um, we’re right before our Jewish high holidays of Han and Kippur Han actually starts Sunday. And the month prior to Rohan, it’s called Elul is meant as a time for introspection and really kind of thinking about your life and your [00:17:00] priorities and what a lot of people do. My myself included is try and have either a meditation or reading for everyday of Elul that either focuses on an aspect of introspection or forgiveness, which is another huge theme. And so in many ways, mental health, you know, in kind of capital letters is what this month is about. Um, at the, as a rabbi though, I don’t know that my mental health is as balanced as Judaism kind of would want it to be because I’m, you know, I’m trying to promote, it’s like a physician healed myself kind of situation where I’m, you know, giving it to the congregation hopefully, but not necessarily always taking it for myself. And so I’ve really been, especially as Roshan comes closer and closer, I’ve really tried to kind of take those themes to heart. Um, and it’s different with kids too, like just thinking about time and how, [00:18:00] you know, we’re, we’re always in a rush to get to the next thing, or certainly I am. And like my two and a half year old, if he wants to jump, doesn’t matter that dad has an appointment or, you know, or it’s lunchtime or whatever. So, um, that’s kind of, uh, where I am. And, and what I’ve been thinking about in terms of, uh, mental health lately. Brett: Yeah, jeffrey_merged: to have a framework. Eric: It is. And the other thing too, is like, without a framework, people don’t do it. Like, that’s why there’s apps. That’s why there’s like all of these methodologies, because we, it, it helps. jeffrey_merged: Yeah. Yeah, For sure. For sure. It’s funny. You mentioned the kids like I, so I have two teenage boys. Um, but when I, when the first home was born, I remember having this just in those hours after having this distinct feeling that I could see further and, and, uh, and almost like this opening of a, of a void or something, like avoid sounds like a negative connotation, but like, I felt like I could see [00:19:00] further beyond just whatever kind of shortsightedness I had been living my, my life with up until having a child. Right. But then really Brett: heard that description. jeffrey_merged: but really quickly it becomes you can’t see past your fucking nose. Right? Like, like And I think that’s such a funny, such a funny ju Eric: Absolutely. That’s a great, yeah. Brett: like, it’ll, it’ll never happen to me. I’ve taken surgical, uh, precautions to ensure that I never become a father. But when I hear people talk about like the perspective change that happens when you have a kid, uh, like I find myself very curious, like I’ve always considered myself too selfish to have children. Um, I am too obsessed with like figuring out my own life that I, I don’t feel qualified to, um, inflict my, uh, insecurities, I guess, uh, my, my lack of direction onto another [00:20:00] life form. Uh, but the response I get from people who are happy, parents is often like none of that matters. Once you have the kid, like everything changes, your, your perspective changes your, your, what you thought was selfishness then gets directed towards a new life form. I, I, that’s curious. I, believe that could be, uh, a situation. jeffrey_merged: Yeah, 10 years of 10 years of high triage will definitely the selfishness out of you. Eric: And, and to flip it too. I mean, I think there is a, not in a negative way. I, I have a whole thing on selfishness gets a bad rap sometimes, but, um, in, in a way it, your children is extension of your, of yourself. So it, it, it, it almost like it’s selfishness in that way too. Like, they are a part of you, so it’s not like you’re giving up something to be with them. Like it it’s like, it’s the same thing in a.[00:21:00] jeffrey_merged: a nice way to put it. That’s a nice way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. Having kids can also be the ultimate selfish act, right. Like Eric: I mean, yeah. I mean, like, look at, you know, overpopulation and the planet and the world. I jeffrey_merged: right, Eric: don’t, I don’t want our mental health to now go down thinking of Brett: if, if, if you want a list of all the reasons not to have kids, we can do Eric: AB it’s very easy. Very, jeffrey_merged: too late for me. Um, uh, I can, I can go. I, you know, I, um, I am just, uh, really benefiting from, uh, probably my eighth or ninth week with a new therapist. And, um, after having one for the same therapist for probably three years, she retired and I’ve mentioned this on the show before, but I, um, it is an incredible thing to generally in life. It’s an incredible thing to watch a good professional, do what they do, but it’s a really incredible thing to be held by the [00:22:00] sort of skills of a professional in the case of therapy in a way that, um, Uh, that I, in, in this case, I just, I’m noticing after years after decades of kind of circling around some of the same things, all of a sudden, I feel like I’m standing somewhere different with those things. I’m not, I haven’t healed from any issues. Not that healing is a final state. Right. But like, but, um, but I’ve just been so grateful, uh, to have this particular therapist at this particular time in my life and, um, and is a great argument for why, why we try so hard to find the right therapist in the first place, cuz it doesn’t always work. Um, I’ve had to, you know, I’ve had to let one go before, but, but it just is an amazing thing. Now that said she only does, uh, online therapy and I realized that after eight weeks or so, it is strange to not have been in a physical space with a person that you’ve shared this much with, you know [00:23:00] Eric: My therapist, I is online as well. And that’s the only way I know him. Yeah, jeffrey_merged: yeah, yeah. yeah. And, and like she’s technically savvy. Thank God. My, my retired, uh, therapist, the first, probably four to six appointments of COVID. I was doing tech support for 20 minutes of the hour and I was not actually in a good place. So I was just like, can we, can you figure this out some other fucking time Eric: Oh my God. I jeffrey_merged: can you figure this out? Uh, you know, she’s like, well, I’m just not hearing it now. And I’m, and then she got a kitten at the same time and the kitten was jumping on. It was just like, it was insane. Anyway, just grateful for that. And, and as always recommending, you know, if you feel like you’ve never been to therapy or like it’s been too long, uh, it’s so worth, it’s so worth looking into it and trying to find a match. So Brett: Oh, I can follow that up. jeffrey_merged: All right. Hit me. Brett: So, okay. My, I, I recently got a new therapist. I got a therapist. This is my [00:24:00] first real therapist. Um, and if you had talked to me last week after my weekly, like right now, I’m, I’m going every week. Um, and if you had talked to me last week, I would’ve been a lot more skeptical because I went to see him in person. Like I have the option to do either telehealth or in person visits. So I was like, I’m gonna try it in person. And I showed up and the session ended up being like, mostly we talked. Like, uh, media, uh, our favorite movies and, uh, Neil Gaman and adaptations of, of comic books into movies. And it was an intriguing conversation, but it’s not what I ever thought therapy would be about. And, and he was like, yeah, no, it’s good to just, you know, establish a, a personal base, uh, like groundwork, uh, to get to know each other. So I was like, all right, I’m, I’m gonna let this one [00:25:00] go. I’ll, I’ll pay for a, a shoot the shit session with this guy. And, and we’ll see what happens. And then this week, uh, I went back to telehealth just due to schedule and holy shit, like we, I learned so much. This week, like my therapist, he, he, he, he likes to explain things. Um, like I expected to spend a lot more time talking about myself, um, and have him nod and writing a notebook, uh, just based on what I’ve seen of therapy in movies. Um, but he, he has a lot of input on what I’m feeling and what I’m going through. And he’s actually given he’s younger than me. Uh, he actually has a lot, especially when it comes to bipolar, uh, ADHD, religious trauma, like he, he knows his shit and he proved that this last week, um, the big takeaway for me [00:26:00] was, uh, he suggested, so I quit drinking, uh, officially two years ago, had some relapses, um, and I was framing them as failures. Uh, Like just the term relapse in and of itself is a loaded term. And like with heroin, I have good reason not to do heroin. Like I ruined people’s lives with my heroin addiction. Uh, alcohol I’ve never hurt anybody. Like maybe I got in a fight once when I was a teenager. Um, cuz I was drunk, but I’ve never hurt anybody. I’ve never stolen from anybody. I’ve never, I’ve never even like emotionally injured as far as I know someone because I was drunk. So I don’t have this strong, like I can never drink again. It will hurt people. Uh, I just, I, I shouldn’t drink again because I know I’m not super [00:27:00] responsible with it and, and it’s not healthy. Like it’s, it’s bad for my teeth. It’s bad for my, my liver or whatever. And, uh, and so he, he wants me to attempt to reframe my relationship with alcohol and like the times that I have quote unquote relapsed, uh, I’ve been like, I’ve had a bottle of whiskey in the basement and, and I sneak it and I use some mouthwash and go about my life. Um, and maybe don’t sneak alcohol in the basement, maybe join my girlfriend for a glass of wine when she’s having a glass of wine and maybe, uh, attempt to drink socially and responsibly and not, not hide a bottle of whiskey in the basement. So it was a, it was a great conversation. Like we’re, we’re, I’m gonna attempt a new, a new paradigm. If it doesn’t work out, if it proves that I just cannot be responsible, then we [00:28:00] look at more drastic, like, uh, complete abstinence, but it was like, he, he. Saw me in a way that, like, if you go to a 12 step program, uh, you, you go in, you just, by showing up there, you’re admitting you have a problem. And the only option is a hundred percent abstinence. Uh, and he, and the way it’s framed is not necessarily, uh, helpful to people that might be in more of a gray area. So it was, it was enlightening. Um, I’m, I’m, I’m looking forward to this reframing of my relationship with alcohol as an attempt maybe, maybe, maybe AA is right. Maybe I don’t have a, a chance in hell of ever drinking responsibly. Maybe. Uh, gonna find out, gonna gonna test the waters. So all this to say, like the [00:29:00] guy has really, he proved himself to me in the last session that he sees me as a person, he understands where I’m coming from. And yeah, I’m really looking forward to my next session with him. Eric: that’s awesome. Yeah, that’s great. jeffrey_merged: That is so good. Brett: Yeah. jeffrey_merged: Yeah. Failure. I feel like it’s like a good, a good therapist. Helps. At least in my case, my therapists, when they’ve been good, have always been so good at stopping me when I I’m clocking myself upside the head and making me kind of open the fists and you know Brett: So, he asks me what’s the antonym of shame. And, and my answer was pride. Like the opposite of shame is pride, but he’s like, no, it’s compassion. The opposite of shame is compassion. and and I was like, holy shit. Yeah. Like the things that I have figured out, especially in relationship to my ADHD, uh, is compassion, like [00:30:00] understanding myself in a way that lets me, uh, feel compassion for that kid. You know, like to look back and say, this is life was rough for this kid. And I feel compassion for him. He wasn’t, he wasn’t lazy. He wasn’t a failure. He, he deserves compassion and, and same with like religious trauma and all of the shit that I’ve gone through with that, uh, compassion like that. That’s kind of the, the keyword. From my last session, it’s just compassion, especially self-compassion, but that translates to compassion for others. Like how can you possibly exist in the world? If you paint everyone in black and white terms, good and evil and have, have no compassion for, for people’s stories for, for where people are coming from. So that was actually a, that was kind of a, an eyeopening thing for me. Eric: Yeah. And that, that goes so much toward, uh, Jewish teaching too. Especially during this [00:31:00] time. I mean, it really does. And again, not trying to convert anyone, but just the resonance there of, you know, the, the Judaism and I mean, the high holidays as a microcosm of that is all about us moving forward. And you know, my wife, uh, we were talking before the show, she’s a therapist. Her specialty is, uh, cognitive behavioral. So like your therapist, Brett, a lot of talking, you know, it’s not the Freudian of like, yes. Tell me about yours. Brett: And how does that make you feel? Eric: Right. Exactly. But you know, the, the, I, one thing that she, her and I talk about all the time when I have, we, we, I have what we coin on. We sometimes where it’s just like the middle of the day and like, I’ll have a few hours free and I just don’t feel like doing anything and, or, or I’ll feel regret that I’m not doing anything. And, you know, we talk about all the time that like you go down that rabbit hole where then you just feel regretful or shame and, and to use your word, when you feel [00:32:00] compassion, you’re motivated maybe to do something productive or good in the world. And that’s, I mean, that’s what Judaism is all about is taking our mistakes or what seemed like failures or places where we didn’t hit the mark. And rather than beat ourselves up about it, just do better just starting today. Just do better. Brett: As a bit of backstory. Um, Eric and I, uh, we started a podcast called an atheist and a rabbi, uh, something, something, I forget exactly what the title was, but, um, Eric has always accepted that I am an atheist and has never attempted to convince me that God exists, but has offered me like what, what wisdom he can from a Jewish perspective. And he has invited me to temple and I have attended with like, as an atheist, I have attended temple and have learned from what Eric, [00:33:00] uh, I don’t, it’s not preaching. What, what is it you do at temple? Eric: I mean, if I give a preaching sermonizing Brett: It’s a sermon. It’s a sermon. Yeah, but it’s it’s you don’t have to accept God. To, to take something away from, from Eric’s temple or probably from most Jewish temples. Like, I, I don’t have a lot of experience, but like, uh, there’s been a, there’s been an understanding and I think if I’m not mistaken, you have atheist in your congregation, do you not? Eric: Oh 100% and that’s not atypical in Jewish communities either. And you know, the, the way, the, the way I frame it, I mean, I, I could go on for hours about this. I, I’m not, I promise, uh, to all the listeners, this is gonna be very short, but you, if you picture a Venn diagram with religion being one circle and God being one circle, there’s definitely an [00:34:00] overlap, but they are absolutely not the same Brett: yeah. jeffrey_merged: Yeah. That’s nicely put, Brett: What’s the, is it a lo Aloha, ALO Heim. What’s the Jewish word for God Elohim Eric: Elohim is, is one name there’s there’s many, but that’s Yeah. Brett: Yeah. I come from the church of yawe jeffrey_merged: I heard of that, dude. Um, I truly hate to do this, but we have to read a sponsor. Brett: Yes, let’s do it jeffrey_merged: minutes in Brett: Oh, man. jeffrey_merged: call it 30. Sponsor: ZocDoc Brett: So this episode is brought to you by Zoc before you book any brunch, you pour over lists and lists of reviews. So why not do the same when you’re booking a doctor’s appointment with Zoc, you can see real verified patient reviews to help find the right doctor in your network and in your neighborhood. After all finding the right doctor is just as, if not more important than finding the right [00:35:00] plate of eggs. Benedict Zoc is a free app that shows you doctors who are patient reviewed, take your insurance and, or available when you need them on Zoc. You can find every specialist under the sun when you’re trying to straighten those teeth, teeth, fixing achy back, get that mole checked out or anything else Zoc has you covered. 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Thanks. jeffrey_merged: Ding D ding, Bearing witness to ourselves jeffrey_merged: ding, you know, something that I think is really amazing about finding, being able to have compassion, especially as you were talking about it, Brett, like towards like your younger, younger self, is that when you can do that, when you find yourself able to have that compassion, you’re also bearing witness in, in a way that almost nobody else could, like, if you’re thinking I’ve had this experience recently looking at things when I was younger and, and finding some compassion for myself and understanding, or kind of making room for understanding what that [00:37:00] experience was like for me also ends up being that I serve as sort of a witness to it. Brett: define this term for define, define, bearing witness, cuz for me, that’s a loaded term coming from a fundamentalist background. jeffrey_merged: It comes from, I mean, it’s absolutely rooted in, uh, in a theological sense, right. Because it’s the idea of bearing witness to suffering, bearing witness to, you know, what, what is true about somebody, um, that maybe that person can’t see or bearing witness to a system that is, that is doing something to people that, you know, so it really does have its roots. Cuz the idea is like if it’s seen then all that, all that needs to happen can happen once it’s seen. Right? Brett: Yeah. Yeah. jeffrey_merged: It’s my sermon for the day. Eric: That’s a good one. No it is. And you know, people forget too, forgiving yourself is as important as forgiving others. Brett: That, that I have [00:38:00] definitely learned, like the thing that has allowed me to move forward, um, like getting ADHD and bipolar diagnoses were huge for me. Um, they gave me an understanding of why my life has gone the way it’s gone. Um, but the process of forgiving myself, the process, like even day to day, like, like you were talking about, like you have some free time and you feel guilty about all the things you don’t feel like doing and being able to forgive yourself, being able to find that compassion. Is what leads to actually doing something worthwhile. Um, and from, so from like a, a grand scheme of things, forgiving childhood me to like forgiving me for not feeling like doing this, this thing that maybe needs to be done. Maybe it’s just an idea that I wish I could bring to fruition. Uh, but I just don’t have the [00:39:00] motivation and finding that forgiveness really leads to actual like productivity. Eric: And all, you know, I, I also, I, I, I think I’m hearing my wife in my ear too. Like, it doesn’t mean anything we do is okay. And like, you know, just like you could do anything and you’re just like, it’s okay. Just forgive yourself. But don’t let that mistake be kind of, you know, is a biblical phrase, uh, from the Torah, uh, be a stumbling block for the blind. Like don’t let that mistake stop you from then doing the right thing or doing better. And that’s really the, the key, I think. Brett: Yeah, Eric: Which of course is easier to say than to do. I mean, I, I say, you know, rabbis often write the sermons that like they need to hear, and that is 100% true for me as, so I’m by no means. Am I like preaching to you here? Brett: I can tell you, my girlfriend is a yoga instructor and she often leads the class that she needs [00:40:00] for her body at that Brett’s weekend plans (including dinner with Jeff!) Brett: time. Um, can I tell you about my weekend plans? jeffrey_merged: Of course Eric: Sure. Brett: So, so I’ve decided to start taking like foodie trips. Um, I watch enough food shows it’s become like my new porn, uh, is to watch like Hulu and Netflix food shows and. And to, to really explore my palette. And I live in a small town. We have very few restaurant choices. We have some actually amazing sushi considering we’re in like landlocked fucking Midwest. Um, the, like the, we have two great sushi restaurants in a town of 30,000 people, but we don’t have much else. And, uh, so, and I have a lot of dietary restrictions. Like I am sensitive to gluten and dairy and uh, if I eat [00:41:00] either of those things, I end up, I, I pay for it. I won’t go into details, but I pay for it. Um, and I have decided to take like weekend vacations where I ignore my dietary restrictions and just plan to pay for them in the next week and go to cities with like a lot of food options and. Eat and just for two days, just breakfast, lunch, and dinner, just find the best restaurants available and, and eat the food that I want to eat. I have some savings, like I’ve been working a corporate job for over a year now. I’ve, I’ve saved up some cash and I feel like eating is what makes me happiest. Uh, I appreciate a good meal in a way that is almost religious. And, uh, so, so my first trip this weekend, uh, I leave, I leave today. I’m headed to [00:42:00] Minneapolis. Um, I have, I have dates set up for. Friday dinner, Saturday lunch, Saturday dinner, Sunday, breakfast and Sunday lunch. I’m still looking for a date for Saturday breakfast. Uh, but one of my, one of my stops will be Mr. Jeff severances. Gunzel uh, we have a, we have a dinner date on Saturday and, and I am very much looking forward to just like, I basically, I put it on, on Twitter. Like if I came to your city, where would you take me? and and I got a lot of feedback from, from people that are like, uh, so I’m gonna go to Portland. I think my next trip is to Portland because, because I am vegetarian. And Portland is considered the most like vegan friendly city for culinary arts in the country. And, and I could go to [00:43:00] Portland and eat. like gluten free vegan the whole weekend and, and, and always have great food. But, um, I’m finding even Minneapolis, which is just a two hour drive for me, uh, is full of, is full of jeffrey_merged: we got your vegans buddy. Brett: Well, jeffrey_merged: they, Dr. They, they ride really tall bikes, just like in Portland. Brett: I’m, gonna be honest. I’m willing to cheat, like I’ve already decided I’m not gonna worry about gluten and dairy. I’m I’m gonna pay the price for that. And when it comes to, if, if, if there is a Cuban pork sandwich that is calling my name, I’m gonna fucking eat it. These Eric: one for you in Athens, Georgia, Brett. Brett: these, these weekends are, are guilt free eat, good food and, and good food may include meat. And I’m willing, I’m willing to cheat just on these weekends, which will not be [00:44:00] a regular thing. And I would always prefer to eat meat that is ethically sourced, but that said like these weekends are a free for all for me. jeffrey_merged: I’ll tell you where I’m taking you, because you say you don’t mind, like in your words, cheating, but if you’re, I don’t wanna be part of putting meat in you, if it doesn’t make you feel good. So there’s a, there’s actually this place called trio plant based and it’s a black run vegan soul food place. And I say black run because in this town, if it’s vegan soul food, it was likely to be white up Brett: Right? Sure. jeffrey_merged: but it’s just an, it is incredible. I’m not vegan. I was back in the day. I’m not vegan. I love this place. Brett: All right. I’m in. jeffrey_merged: you’re gonna love it. Brett: That sounds amazing. There’s a, there souled in Chicago was the first, first vegan soul food I ever had. And it was before I was even vegan. I had souled in Chicago and was like, holy shit. jeffrey_merged: I love a vegan restaurant where, where I’m like, oh, I’ll go eat there [00:45:00] anytime. I don’t even think about the fact that it’s vegan. No offense. It’s all. It’s cool, man. Vegan’s cool. Eric: Yeah, jeffrey_merged: don’t, Brett: I am I, jeffrey_merged: ride with it anymore, but Brett: so I am pescatarian. I just wanna be totally honest. I eat eggs and cheese and I will eat fish. Um, so I am far from vegan. I am, I am three points away from being an actual vegan, but given my, uh, my allergy to gluten and dairy, it’s easiest to just say I’m vegan. Um, cuz that automatically excludes dairy and there’s a lot of gluten free vegan available. Um, but yes, uh, there’s a, there’s a breakfast joint in Minneapolis that I’ve forgotten it’s on the west bank earth, something earth. Uh, but they, it was the first place they ever had like a vegan omelet jeffrey_merged: Oh, I know what you’re thinking of. and the name is totally escaping me, but yeah, I Brett: [00:46:00] and they, you, you can give any name you want to, um, and they will call it over this little loud speaker system they have set up and I would always give my name as you and the bushes. jeffrey_merged: It’s because , Hey you in the bushes, uh it’s. You’re thinking of their dish, the like whole green Brett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. jeffrey_merged: why I can’t, you know, friend of the show Danny glamor worked there, Brett: Oh really? That makes sense. jeffrey_merged: Back in the day. um, yeah, that’s a good place for vegan and also not Brett: Wait. It may be where I go Saturday morning sands jeffrey_merged: right. Yeah. Maybe, maybe we could talk Daniel into it. Um, alright. Eric: get someone to run services I’ll I’ll come to jeffrey_merged: You’ll come. You’ll come. This is gotta get a sub Brett: So Eric, Eric is coming to Minneapolis in December and we will, I will actually, I will absolutely be coming to meet him and, and we will get a meal. Uh, but I’m also willing to visit Athens Georgia. I’ve [00:47:00] I’ve had some great food in Georgia. Like my brother went to college in Savannah Eric: Oh, yeah. Brett: currently lives in Atlanta and every time I’ve been there, I’ve had great food. Um, is Athens near the coast? Eric: No, no. And the, the Savannah is actually one of the closest beaches, which is like six hours away. Brett: Okay. Okay. jeffrey_merged: from the coast. That’s right. I forget. Eric: I know it’s weird. My geography is horrible. I just know that that’s how long it took GPS to take us to Savannah. jeffrey_merged: right, right, right. well, Brett, I think that sounds like an exciting, uh, what sounds like a year you’re gonna have, uh, going places and Brett: I’m, I’m I’m gonna keep saving up money. I’m I’m gonna try not to dip too far into my savings to do this. Uh, but flying is expensive these days. Um, even trains are expensive these days, so I gotta kinda gotta kinda figure out the best way to stretch my [00:48:00] budget, to eat the best food possible without, you know, digging into my, my retirement fund, I guess. Grapptitude (with a pre-game) jeffrey_merged: Brett, can I do a pre GRAT tube gratitude Brett: Yeah. jeffrey_merged: it’s to you? Um, I have finally started creating how it build notes in all of my repositories, um, and in a few other places on my computer. And it’s all been part of this effort. Brett knows this well that I’ve had this kind of, it’s almost like a nervous Twitch that causes me to clean install my computer once every couple, few months. Um, and usually what happens is I, I just, I don’t know what it is. I like going through the process of just kind of building things back up. I usually build some new system in the process, whatever, but it’s very destructive overall, um, to do this. And I think, and I believe connected to my now medicated, bipolar. Um, so I haven’t, this one was totally different, right. [00:49:00] So I did the, like the reinstall, but I’m building everything so mindfully, so Brett has this. I don’t know, called a utility, which called it. Brett: tool a tool, a TT tool, jeffrey_merged: a TT tool, um, it called house it, and it’s just, you know, Brett classic, Brett style. It’s a plain text file that you put into some repository where that involves you. You know, like say I imagine it like this. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a folder. It’s a project that I, I, I go to maybe every few months and every time I go to it, I have to remember some sequence of events, uh, to kind of get it running again, especially with the repository, you know, I gotta make sure the environment is ready and have I, do I have everything installed that needs to be installed and have I configured, you know, where I need to configure. And that can really, really freeze me up when it comes time to revisit. Um, a project, especially something like that lives in a repository, something that’s sort of code based, command based, that kind of thing. And so this time, Brett, when I [00:50:00] rebuilt my system, I just paused everything. Once I had all my repos in and, you know, I had successfully kind of gone through, you know, I, I have web scrapers that run from my investigative work and stuff like that. So I kind of touched everything. And then I was like, all right, no further, I’m writing a house. It file for each of these. So that the next time I blow up my computer system, if I decide to, I can at least get to this point very quickly. Um, and generally what I’m doing, because I don’t believe that I can stop myself from wanting to. Clean install my computer. I don’t know what it is. Uh, I’m I’ve decided instead to just make sure that as I rebuild it every time I sort of systematize it so that I kind of defeat, um, this part of me that wants to just like knock all the Legos over, you know, and , and I can just kind of build it back up, uh, again, as needed. And then assuming that I can beat this thing where I’m constantly, you know, knocking the Legos over, it just becomes useful and meaningful because it will be three months between touching a certain repository [00:51:00] or whatever. And so the ability to have through a text file create a sort of interaction, which is like, what part do you wanna do? Do you wanna set the environment? Do you wanna run the script? Do you wanna clean up after the script? Right? It’s just been it’s Brett: The jeffrey_merged: as always. Brett: yeah. Yeah. The time, the time that I write the most build notes is that first time I come after three months and touch a project and cannot remember how, how it works and, and immediately I’ll figure it out. And as I figure it out, I’ll document it in a build notes file for how’s it in the future. But yeah, like you have to, you have to forget once before you realize how important it is to document, and then in the process of figuring it back out, you document what you figured out and then you never have to do it again in, jeffrey_merged: Yep. Yeah. And it’s nice. Cuz like my process is I, I open up a build file and I just make a bulleted list of everything I needed to do. And [00:52:00] then I just start writing it in. You’re incredibly simple syntax. Um, it’s beautiful. Brett: I’m glad. I’m glad to hear. I’m glad to hear it. Serving someone else as well to serve me. jeffrey_merged: Oh my God. How’s it. I love it. That’s my deal. Eric: It’s like two standard deviations above my comprehension. The markdown tools, breast markdown tools are about my, my speed. jeffrey_merged: yes, no. I, I relate to that. Like I’ve only in the last year, uh, is this something that I’m even able to handle? You know what I mean? Like, so I’ve always like, groked Brett’s tools, but been like, uh, I wish I was doing the kind of project where I could use that. but slowly but surely I’m getting there. Brett: should we, uh, should we segue into your aptitude jeffrey_merged: absolutely. Brett: first? We have another sponsor. jeffrey_merged: Oh, we do. Oh, you’re making this up. You make a Brett: I’m just making this up. This episode is brought to you by atheist Judaism. jeffrey_merged: Hmm. [00:53:00] I have Eric: There’s another joke in there. Something will come to me. Brett: Do you believe in God? No. Try atheist Judaism. jeffrey_merged: You know, in my world of, you know, my wife went to seminary, so lots of friends who became pastors and, and the like, um, and then I come from sort of Minneapolis, punk rocks. So a lot of atheists in the, in the house, I I’m gonna make an, an observation that I don’t think is all that, um, Wild, but I was thinking about it as you were speaking with Eric Brett about atheist and the congregation, is that in my experience, if I am sitting with an atheist, I feel far further from that person who is, you know, maybe preaching in a pulpit than I do from, from the atheist, if I’m sitting next to the preacher of the pulpit. Um, I, I think that sometimes the, the construct of atheism, [00:54:00] which can be, I think in sometimes some cases very protective in nature, right. Especially if you’ve had religious trauma and I am not saying this is what happened to you. I don’t know. Right. But I think it can sometimes make it feel that there’s a thicker wall than there is. And I say that as somebody who is. Any more comfortable saying, I believe in God than I am saying. I don’t believe in God, so I’m not coming. I’m coming. Literally. I find myself in the middle of atheists and, and believers of some form or another all the time. And that’s how it always feels. It just feels like sometimes the wall is a little higher because my friends who are atheist and it had, they got to it after much harm. Brett: yeah. jeffrey_merged: and, and so they’ve built this fortress called atheism that is fully understandable, right? Brett: that’s the thing is like my initial, like atheism absolutely was a protection. Uh, it, when it started for me, like basically this, [00:55:00] this idea of God has hurt me enough has caused me. Uh, pain in my life that I refuse to believe in it. And over time it has become a far more intellectual thing. Um, like I, I refuse to believe without evidence and, and for fantastic claims, you need fantastic evidence and, and it has become more, it has become more scholarly, but yeah, absolutely. It was, it was a defense mechanism at first and, uh, in the process, like over the years, I have found great connection with people like Eric, uh, and as well as like even Baptist preachers, like every kind of denomination, the clergy are the people who have actually questioned. This shit and, and have, have come up with their own [00:56:00] answers and their own justifications for believing. And I have always been able to have a conversation with clergy in a way that I cannot with the average parishioner. Um, and, and it’s, it’s, um, like I, I can’t connect with someone unless they have truly questioned the existence of God, uh, the validity of religion. And, and if they have, and they have come to their own conclusions, I’m in, let’s talk. Let’s let’s, we don’t have to debate, like, you’re not gonna change my mind. I’m not gonna change your mind, but let’s talk about experiences and that’s always been fruitful for. Eric: And, you know, I have so much to say about this would be, I guess it would be weird if I didn’t. Right. But you know, the first thing is, you know, Jeff, what, what you really beautifully describe? It reminds me of. You know, in [00:57:00] many ways the, the power that clergy has and in many ways, destructive, I mean, I, I hear stories from people who want to convert to Judaism. You know, oftentimes it’s, it’s purely from a theological kind of, um, intellectual, spiritual place, but, but other times it is from, you know, they came out as gay and got kicked out of the church or, you know, all things like that. Um, and so I wouldn’t say it was a motivating factor in me becoming a rabbi because thankfully I, I did have positive experiences. I mean, certainly nothing traumatic. Um, But it, I I’m reminded of that all of the time of kind of the power of clergy, especially with younger people and things like that. The other thing too, I think about a lot with atheism is, you know, for me, this kind of litmus test, I think of the movie contact, you know, when Jodi foster is not allowed because she doesn’t believe in God, like [00:58:00] first, like you have to define God to even make it a meaningful question. Like to say, I believe in God and be like, Ooh, thank goodness. They believe in God. Like what does that even mean? Brett: Who who’s God. Eric: yeah. And you know, something I do with kids a lot and frankly, adults too, is I ask the question, what kind of God do you believe in? And what kind of God don’t you believe in? Because when I talk to people that, you know, will describe themselves as atheists or die hard atheists or something like that, I’ll say, well, what kind of God, don’t you believe in? And more often than not, that’s the same kind of God, I don’t believe in. And then the, and then, um, the, the last thing I’ll say is, you know, I, I respect Richard Dawkins a lot. I, I read a lot of, you know, some of his science books before he became kind of this, the, you know, the atheist spokesperson, Brett: Poster boy. Yeah, Eric: But, you know, I, I, I call this new crop of atheists and this might be a [00:59:00] little bit tongue in cheek, but angry atheists. Right. And Brad, I don’t see you as an angry atheist. And I, as a matter of fact, I didn’t coin this term. I, I heard, uh, Jennifer, Michael, heck, who’s an incredible poet and author jeffrey_merged: Oh Eric: it. Um, you know, like you can be a spiritual atheist. Without even question. Like, I don’t think that I don’t describe myself that way, but I absolutely think one can be, and one can find joy in religion and meaning in religion. And again, that, that separation sometimes of religion and God, and, you know, Judaism specifically, there’s a, without giving a full blown sermon right now that in the Tom mode, there’s this quote that’s attributed to God that says better. They follow my laws than, than believe in me. And it’s like, that says it right there. And it’s, you know, it’s that it it’s a little bit of a gross metaphor, but there is some truth in it. Otherwise it wouldn’t exist of, you know, Christianity is a religion of creed, whereas Judaism is a [01:00:00] religion of deed. Again, there’s so much to unpack there, but there’s something to it. Brett: So to, to any atheist of my ilk is technically an agnostic. Um, we, we require evidence. We, we are willing to change our opinions based on evidence. We cannot disprove the existence of God. We just cannot prove the existence of God. So we refuse to accept what we cannot prove, but we do not discount the idea that if the correct evidence were presented, we might believe in a God, whether we worship that God is, you know, a question that remains to be seen. It depends on the qualities of that, God, but we are, we are technically a, uh, agnostic and we, we’re not angry atheist. We are simply people who require, [01:01:00] uh, fantastic evidence for fantastic claims. Um, yeah. jeffrey_merged: There’s a, I don’t normally just pull out Jewish theologian quotes, but there happens to be one that I, that I’ve loved forever from Joshua Heshel. And it’s the, the high something that the higher point of spiritual living is not to AMA a wealth of information, but to face sacred moments. And I love that because it, for me that pulls me right out of the muck of like, of my own muck of what is God and what is, you know, whatever. And it’s just kind of like that, that idea of like reentering yourself around sacred moments and whatever that similar to you. Like, you define it, you define what a sacred, you know, for yourself, you define what a sacred moment is. And I like that as a sort of, I like those kinds of, um, those kinds of invitations into the, in between spaces. Eric: Yeah, absolutely. And Heschel’s very good. Uh, for anyone listening, he’s eminently [01:02:00] readable whether you’re Jewish or not, whatever your belief system is. And Yeah. jeffrey_merged: yeah, I think that book was the Sabbath. I Eric: Yeah. I would imagine it is, which is also very short, jeffrey_merged: yeah. Super. I know exactly right. That’s why it’s the one I know. I mean that, that’s the, the great thing about my wife being both a therapist and having gone to seminary is she leaves great books laying around Eric: I love that Brett: I think you found the episode title invitations to the, in between. jeffrey_merged: that’s right. That’s right. Eric: also. Good band name. jeffrey_merged: that is a good band name, actually. Brett: Put that one in the notebook. jeffrey_merged: yeah, exactly. Allt. Who wants to go first? Brett: go first. I’m jeffrey_merged: All right. Brett: MailMate so there are so many email programs out there these days. Uh, you got your air mail and you got your spark and you got like every possible and they’re so many of them are beautiful. They’re just like. Aesthetic pleasures to use, but if you want actual power, if you [01:03:00] want actual smart folders, if you want actual filters, if you want actual keyboard shortcuts that are truly configurable MailMate is the way to go. And I am not only an owner of MailMate like I paid the one time fee, but I enjoy it so much that I became a MailMate patron and pay a monthly subscription fee. In addition, you can purchase it one time and you own it and, and you can actually use it for free without purchasing it. It, he has very lax standards as to what a supporter is. Uh, but I am all in on mail mate and, and I pay, I pay monthly. Uh, just to support the power. It’s not pretty, it’s not a pretty application. Um, it is, it’s very much like if you imagine a Java app from like, uh, maybe 2015, uh, it kind of feels like that it, it is, it’s [01:04:00] not a Java app. It is, it uses all it’s, it’s a cocoa app, but, uh, but if you are, you know, into the airmail kind of aesthetic, you’re not gonna be pleased with it. Um, but, but like the trade off for the power, it provides the kind of smart mailboxes you can set up using this app. The kind of filtering you can set up is above and beyond any other email application available. So my pick is MailMate. jeffrey_merged: Can Eric: to open their webpage and it’s hanging maybe. So is everybody else? jeffrey_merged: It’s that Java, uh, two things I really love about MailMate as a user. One is just an instant thing you notice by accident, which is if you click on a subject, um, in an email, uh, in just the list of emails, it will immediately pop up a, a. Sub sort of folder of all of the emails with that, um, subject line. And same, [01:05:00] if you, if you just like double click on a person’s name, you just get all their emails. It’s like, it’s really, it’s a really fast way to kind of get through the muck. And the other thing I do, which may make people choke out there is about once a year I go through and MailMate has a way that I can just download all attachments from all mail. And I put it into a folder that’s very clearly labeled all attachments. And I have found that that has saved me so many times when I’m like trying to come up with something at the, I knew was in my email like six months ago, you know, but I’m not quick enough in a meeting to search it. I can, I can count on this weird folder that I should just have not indexed, you know, Brett: right. Eric: and. Brett: has extensions. It has bundles. Like if you, if you were ever a text bank, user, you’re familiar with bundles and it ha it has a whole bundle architecture. I built my own, plus it has integrations with like Adam busy, Cal calendar, E filer, fantastical lighthouse, macve [01:06:00] sublime, OmniFocus pigments, uh, for syntax highlighting, uh, vs code. Like it can do it, it integrates with everything and it’s it’s so much fun. Eric: And it doesn’t bother you that it’s not on iOS Brett: Um, so I use spark on iOS. Eric: without a keyboard. Brett: So I don’t use Eric: Brett. And I had this whole text chain spark doesn’t auto complete email addresses. If you’re using a keyboard jeffrey_merged: oh my God. Brett: like you have to tap the screen. It’s jeffrey_merged: Wow. Brett: ideal, jeffrey_merged: Wow. Brett: but I don’t use a keyboard with iOS. Like I barely use my iPad. Um, I, I need the spark on iOS. I can, again, with a little fining, integrate it with the way that I use, uh, MailMate on my Mac and, and it suits my purposes. If I were [01:07:00] primarily an iOS person, it would be a lot more grading, but iOS is kind of an afterthought for me. Um, I’m, I’m mostly Mac and I do most of my correspondence on Mac and, and, and that’s, MailMate fits the bill. If you are an iOS heavy person and you do most of your correspondence on iOS MailMate is probably not for you. And you’re better off getting into an ecosystem like spark or airmail, uh, something that, Eric: I’ve been begrudgingly using airmail, very jeffrey_merged: You have you have? Yeah, I have, I used it a long time ago, but I haven’t tried it Eric: but I really wanna switch to something, but I, I there’s nothing. And in apple mail doesn’t work for me either, even with the latest upgrades in Iowas 16. I’m not jeffrey_merged: like there’s everything and there’s nothing. Brett: there, there’s an iOS, uh, preside, have you seen preside? jeffrey_merged: no, Brett: It is a very, it’s, it’s [01:08:00] an iOS version of mail mate. Uh, totally different. Like I just mean as far as like severity of aesthetic goes, jeffrey_merged: that’s the new bar I’m looking for. Severity of aesthetic. Brett: It, but, but it offers, it offers a lot of like, uh, extra power that you don’t get from other apps, but it doesn’t work with my outlook 360 account that I need for work. So I haven’t gotten into it, jeffrey_merged: Painful. What about you, Eric? Brett: will add it as a subtopic jeffrey_merged: Sure. Brett: in the show notes anyway. Okay. That’s me. Yeah. Eric: mine’s boring, but it’s what I’ve been spending most of my time in it’s PDF expert by, is it jeffrey_merged: yes. Not boring. Not boring. Eric: Um, and I also like they’re from Ukraine and I just kind of appreciate their messaging the past few months and everything. And, um, even though spark frustrates me PDF [01:09:00] expert, you know, for the high holiday, is it, it’s a combination of, we have a choir, we have a cantorial soloist. I have announcements, I have page numbers. I have readers. And I just took a photocopy of every page of the prayer book. It’s, it’s a scanned PDF. It’s in there. I use my apple pencil on my iPad. I’m writing it up, who’s reading what, and it just, it makes me feel so much more at ease about the services coming up. And, you know, I imagine there’s so many use cases where, you know, people having a PDF and being able to insert notes and things is just super useful and yeah, it’s great. jeffrey_merged: it’s so great. You can export your notes, like whatever you have highlighted and yeah, I’ve used it forever. I love it. It is boring. It’s it’s the best kind of boring. It’s Eric: That’s. jeffrey_merged: it just is really sturdy. Hardy, dependable. Eric: Yeah. I even bought the, the Mac one, which is, I mean, it’s expensive. It jeffrey_merged: I just did the same. I just did the same. Yeah, it is expensive. Eric: But yeah. And you know, I love that. It, [01:10:00] it, you know, goes right into iCloud everything’s synced it’s. jeffrey_merged: Yes, definitely, man. That’s awesome. Um, mine is a command line utility called Rex G R E X. It is for regular expressions, which is not something I’m good with. Um, but because I deal with a lot of data and a lot of like bulk text files in my investigative work, um, I always am looking for ways into the data and what’s cool about this and I haven’t found anything else or I haven’t encountered anything else that does it. So basically you. If I wanted to borrow the band name, Siegel’s screaming, kiss her, kiss her. If I wanted to come up with the regs kind of statement that would capture both that one and flock of Siegels, I would put those two things in quotes, uh, and just write Rex at the beginning of the command. And it would show me. What regular expression would capture both of those [01:11:00] things. So if I also wanted to put, you know, I have a name, I have like a hyphenated last name, sometimes it’s Jeff severance. Gunzel sometimes Jeff Gunzel. So I have Jeffrey Gunzel if I wanted to make sure I caught all of those, I would just type ’em on the command line with GRX at the top. And, uh, and it would actually feed out what the regular expression is that I would need now, as Brett knows, it doesn’t always get me all the way, cuz I sometimes part of my contracting with Brett is like 10 minute, uh, regular expressions challenges so it doesn’t always get me all the way there, but it’s just, it’s a fun thing actually just to play with and, and helps me a little bit to understand regular expressions better. So G R E X, you can, you can brew, install it from home brew if that’s your, if that’s your, uh, Brett: it’s, it’s a, it’s a great way to start. Um, Like, if you, if you know a little bit about red XX, you can take the patterns that it gives you and really make them truly [01:12:00] flexible. Like it’s great. It’s great at matching exactly the pattern or like the text you give it. Uh, but if you wanna expand it to match, uh, a more flexible pattern, you need to know a little bit, but yeah, it it’s a, it’s a good, it’s a jeffrey_merged: Yeah. For, For, me what I can do, here’s the, here’s the actual order I can, I can start there. Then I take it into there’s a couple of web web apps that you can use that there’s something called expressions as a Mac app that you can use to like put in text and then above it, type in your REDX to see if it captures it. So it’s going the other direction. And so like, I can go from there to a thing where I’m kind of tweaking it to try to capture text that I put in. And then from there I go to Brett, like I’m starting to realize. Eric: downloadable as part of a home brew install. Not yet. Anyway. jeffrey_merged: this week. Yeah. Brew installed Brett Terpstra. Um, the, this past week I must have spent an hour and a half on this stupid thing. And finally I’m like, why am I I’m like I bill by the hour, you know, [01:13:00] I’m like, I should just really give it to the guy that can do it in 10 minutes. So anyway, Eric: And you know, I I’m like a one on a one to 10 scale of, but of expressions, but you know, people don’t non-programmers don’t realize like you’re searching email or, you know, Brett turned me onto Huda spot to find files on my Mac. jeffrey_merged: to spot? Eric: like, so Rex might be up my alley. I had not heard of that, but I, it, jeffrey_merged: That’s like, for me, I’m like you like, and in that I’m, I’m, I’m zero to one at this, but it’s like, I, I know what it can do. That’s like , that’s, that’s the first step of being dangerous is knowing what it can do. Eric: So true. jeffrey_merged: anyway, this was super fun. Eric: Yeah. Thank you guys so much. I, I hope Christina’s feeling better, but, uh, I really appreciate, uh, being on here. Brett: Yeah, it’s been a blast. We’ll have you back, Eric: would love it. And, uh, Jeff, we’re gonna have to change a plate or trade PlayStation, gamer tags. And, jeffrey_merged: Yes, exactly. That sounds good. [01:14:00] awesome. Brett: do you know how we close out? Eric: I don’t remember Brett: All right. Eric: because I, I have too much high holiday on the brain. Brett: Just, play along. You’re ready. Eric: I’m ready. Brett: get some sleep? guys. Oh, I do know how jeffrey_merged: get some sleep?[01:15:00]

Christina is off this week. Jeff interviews Brett about why and how he builds the tools he builds. Sponsor SimpliSafe has everything you need to keep your home safe — from entry and motion sensors to indoor and outdoor cameras. Visit simplisafe.com/overtired and claim a free indoor security camera plus 20% off with Interactive Monitoring. Show Links Brett’s new EP! Quick Question: Remember the illusive answer to a persistant question doing: Remember what I was doing or feeling and when bunch: Remember how I like my computer environment to be set up in countless contexts Howzit: Remember how I built or configured a thing Tag Filer: Remember where my documents go podtagger: Remember how to do podcast metadata Cheaters: Remember my keyboard shortcuts and commands Markdown service tools: Remember Markdown syntax and apply it na: Remember what my next steps are in this directory/project Peek TaskPaper Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jeffreyguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Why Brett Builds What He Builds Jeffrey: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. And welcome to another episode of Overtired. It’s me, Jeff. I’m here with Brett we’re alone. Christina could not be here this week. She’s traveling. Uh, she’s in Chicago. I believe so. Brett, it’s just you and me. How do you feel about that? Brett: I’m I’m, you know, I love you. I always, I miss Christina, miss Christina, I feel like the three of us have a, a really good thing going, but you know, the beauty of having three co-hosts is if one person needs a week off, the show can go on Jeffrey: That’s true. The show must go on. You could say that probably. Um, and, and in, in this case, the show is going on, despite the fact that your face is completely, uh, uh, ripped up and bloodied. What, what happened to you? Brett: So I, I was on my hands and knees working on my Sonology. Um, had, I had just, I had just unwrapped [00:01:00] a 16 terabyte, hard drive and. What I meant to do was sit up and what happened was I went forward and I don’t know exactly. All I know is like, instead of coming eye to eye with the Sonology on the networking shelf, I suddenly was seeing stars. And I had plowed my face into the carpet. I have like a throw rug down around this. And, and I just face first into the throw rug, took a chunk outta my nose, scraped up my forehead, ripped up my elbow. It was, and then I sat up and I’m, I had no idea what had happened. Like, it was very confusing to me. And I looked down and there’s like blood all over my hand. And I wa like in a days, wandered upstairs and I was like, oh my God, what happened? And like, well, I kind of just faceplanted into the carpet for no apparent reason. So she [00:02:00] wants me to go to the doctor now. Which I, I will do out of respect. Uh, if Jeffrey: Uh, out of concern for the why or out of concern Brett: the why? Jeffrey: a rug destroyed Brett: No, no. Out of the why, like why did you go down instead of up when, when, when you sent the signal to stand up, why did you instead ke forward? Jeffrey: Is it one of those things where you were, you were seated and in order to get up, you had to kind of lean forward to get a little momentum to get up, and then you just didn’t do the other steps, Brett: I, I just, I skip some steps. Jeffrey: bad program, Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Jeffrey: I’m sorry. Well, I support as, as a, as a co-host and I know I speak for Christina as well. We support you, uh, at going into the doctor. We agree with L uh, maybe it was like a blood pressure thing. Right? Who Brett: could be, yeah. Could be medication related. I have a lot of meds that affect my balance and woo. And. Jeffrey: Wow. Um, I really wish [00:03:00] Sonology was a sponsor. So somehow we could wrap this up into a sponsor read, and then maybe go to like Z doc. Um, I mean, I really feel like we’re living into a possible sponsor situation here. Brett: Bunch of bunch of corporate tie-ins for this one, Jeffrey: We’re gonna have to get everybody on the fifth floor on that. Um, let’s see if they can, they can work on it up there in sales. Um, well I’m glad you’re okay. That’s crazy. Oh, I see your cat. So we’re gonna do a little more, Brett. It is the 19th birthday of the everlasting cat. Yeti, who has just, I wouldn’t say marched into the screen. Brett: I said to knock on wood, cuz you went and jinx it. Jeffrey: What happened? Everlasting? Brett: said everlasting cat. I, I guarantee you. He is not everlasting. The day will. Jeffrey: Oh man. Okay. So 19 years old though, Yeti is a part of. Brett: yet. Yeah, yet he is, I, other than a couple like brief trips out of town, I have seen Yeti every day for 19 years. [00:04:00] And like, I’ve had him from the day of his birth. Uh, his mom had FIV and we had to take her kittens away and she got euthanized and we, we raised the kittens and, uh, yeah, it was, it was, uh, be born of tragedy, but we immediately like, and I honestly like when there was a litter of six kittens and I wanted the tuxedo one, um, because I had recently lost my cat trouble to a pit bull, a pit bull had. Jeffrey: That’s not funny, but you did just say I lost my cat trouble to a pit bull. It sounds like the lyrics to a song. I don’t want to hear. Brett: She, she had, she had unbeknownst to me, had a litter of kittens in the closet, um, because I was a young irresponsible person who didn’t spay their cat. And she, I lived in a, will say a less than sanitary living situation. And she [00:05:00] would escape through a broken window at night and she got pregnant and gave birth and I was oblivious to the whole thing. Um, but then she ends up trying to defend her litter against a pit bull that was visiting our house. And she lost that fight. And that kind of fucked me up for a while. So when I’m faced with this litter of kittens and there’s one tuxedo kitten in the litter and I, that was the one that I was gonna take. Um, and my. My, at that point, fiance’s mom convinced me to take the one that looked like Eddie Munster. Um, and, and over the course of the next couple years, Yeti, Eddie Munster, Yeti Munster, um, Yeti became my cat, just, we just bonded. And like he would fetch, I could throw a toy and he would run down the [00:06:00] hall and come back going and like, bring me the, bring me like the foil ball back. And we would play fetch and, and he slept with me and we just, we became inseparable. Jeffrey: well, and I I’ve, I’ve experienced not just in recording this podcast on video, but also in, in our many, many, many zoom meetings together, Yeti can just kind of walk up on your desk and just start staring at you and I’ll see the back of his head. And yet he’s just staring at you. Brett: yeah. Jeffrey: Now I have to ask this was Minneapolis with the, with the cat trouble and the pit. So there’s a, there’s a pit bull in a house with a, with a broken window. I gotta say it. What that tells me is you were living with crusty punks. Brett: I was well, okay, wait, no, actually, actually I take that back. I had moved out of the crusty punk house and I was living with a bunch of junkies who were also models. Jeffrey: Wow. Models. Like what hand models? Body models. Brett: body [00:07:00] models. We’re talking, we’re talking Abercrombie and Fitch type of models, not Abercrombie and Fitch. They were doing smaller time stuff, but like they would get makeup to cover up their track marks. And, and it was actually a very different living situation than the punk house. Um, but we were all severely addicted to heroin and, uh, that kind of ran that the house was kind of built around heroin a. Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. So funny. I lived in houses like that in Minneapolis in the day, but I never was doing any drugs at all, but everyone around me was doing those drugs. I remember I lived in a house where I had a roommate who had an AK 47 with no safety that just laid, uh, against the wall next to his bed. Brett: Yeah, we, we did not have Jeffrey: at one point, and this, I bet you’ll relate to. At one point in the living room of this house, we were in, this was a house that was in like a permanent state of foreclosure that a, a friend of mine [00:08:00] kind of got hold of. And, and we were paying like almost nothing, no utilities or anything. It was over by MCAT or by the, the art art Institute in the art school. Brett: That’s where I was living on Jeffrey: was it, we surely we ran into each other, but there was a point where there was about seven of us living in this place. I kind of like hid in my room all day, uh, working on my, my super radical politics zine called wake up, wake up. Um, but outside me, like I remember one day we spilled a five gallon bucket of paint that we had for reasons I don’t understand. And we were also eating taco bell. And for the rest of the time I lived in that house, there was a spilled thing of paint with taco bell, wrappers stuck in it. And I, I still wonder to this day, I’m like, okay, so you weren’t, you weren’t a junkie you didn’t know drugs at all. Like how did you find yourself in these situations? Jeff? Cause that one, woo. There are some stories and that was like a famous, not famous. It was a, it was a barely known, um, punk [00:09:00] rock house where like the first time green day came through town, they slept on the floor of Brett: wasn’t not castle chaos, right? Jeffrey: Oh, my God. I think that’s what it was. It’s got the turret, the turret on top. Yeah. That’s it. Castle chaos. I didn’t know it when it was castle Brett: I’ve been to basement shows there Jeffrey: Oh my God. See, we only had the second and third floor of castle chaos. And so wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. This is crazy. So I moved in at basically after castle chaos, as it was known ended. The next scenario was this scenario. I was in with the guy with the AK 47 and we had a meth dealer who also did shitty tattoos. Um, his name was lips, which we called them. It was short for apocalypse, which was the smell of his feet. Um, and he would and he would give tattoos for, for Brett: face tattoos. Jeffrey: no face tattoos in his case, maybe he would give them, he didn’t have them. Brett: I knew multiple people from castle chaos that had full face tattoos. Jeffrey: Oh, my [00:10:00] God castle chaos. Okay. So just for my own sake, because this house enters my dreams really, honestly, a few times a year, it was a, it was a strange, magical portal of a place. Um, and it was called a castle because it had this like turret or this almost like Rapunzel Brett: Uhhuh. Jeffrey: Um, and, and, and it was so unique and it was so, so stunning of a house, but it was a total piece of shit. Brett: Yes. Jeffrey: I mean, for God’s sake, it was called castle chaos for how many years. So what, how did you enter castle chaos? Brett: uh, punk rock. Like I was in a punk rock band and it was just kind of a, it was a mainstay of the punk rock scene, like parties and the occasional basement show. And, and you just, you knew like you see the face tattoos and you’d be like, Hey, castle, chaos. Yep. Castle chaos. Jeffrey: Yeah. Cause they, cuz you could get your face tattoos there. Brett: I, I don’t know where all the face tattoos came from, but these are the people that worked at like Sunnyside up, uh, the breakfast [00:11:00] joint with all the punk rockers Jeffrey: Yep. Brett: um, yeah. Jeffrey: Wow. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, I loved living there and what I thought about the reason I even brought it up is my, my roommate there had two cats, one cat was named yo and the other cat was named Corma and we call them Yagi and corny. And at one point, the ceiling in my room gave way and my room flooded. And, um, and, and once we cleaned it all up, it was still a completely destroyed ceiling, but the water was cleaned up. Cause the part of living there for almost free was that no, one’s gonna come and help you when the ceiling explodes. Right. But then the cats disappeared for a while, but they would appear every once in a while when I was sleeping, they would just show up in the ceiling, above my head and look down at me, you know, just like, let me know they’re okay. But I could totally imagine them having a litter of cats in the, in the ceiling of this place. Brett: before I lived, before I lived on Clinton avenue, I lived on east Hennepin and we had a house where the landlord had. [00:12:00] Basically, let us move in. We were renting the whole house for about a thousand dollars a month. Um, and there were, I think, eight of us. And, um, I was the only person in the group who held on a job. So to this day, everyone owes me thousands of dollars, but, uh, but he basically told us that when we moved out, he was gonna tear it down and he did not give a shit what we did to that house. Jeffrey: Yeah. We had a similar situation. Brett: paint, everywhere. We would like we would have parties where people would literally go through walls and we just, that place was demolished. By the time we left Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. I don’t know how many, how many of our listeners start listening and going? Oh, I relate. Brett: relatable. Jeffrey: relatable. Um, yeah. Okay. Okay. That was fun. Um, I mean, I’m just delighted that we shared some history of that space together. Um, okay. Why don’t we, why don’t we [00:13:00] do a little mental health corner? I would love to hear how you are doing, and then, uh, I am going to, I’m gonna interview Brett for this episode. I already started in a way, except it ended up being such a shared history, shared history of complete fuckery episode title. Mental Health Corner Jeffrey: Anyway, how you doing? Brett: I’m I’m stable. I’m in that, that kind of stable spot where I’m starting to get like bored, but grateful that I’m sleeping well. And, um, just kind of emotionally at rest, uh, kind of getting worked on. I’m still BA I’m on the depressed side of stable still. Um, but it was a pretty light depression this time around, um, I did last night have trouble sleeping and had to take some, uh, over the counter sleeping meds. Uh, which worries me because last, my [00:14:00] last manic episode, which was a little more intense than it had been, uh, started with 10 days of kind of shitty sleep. Uh, and then all of a sudden it like clicked and I was manic and, and off to the races and learning swift and writing Jeffrey: Yeah, right. I was and, and posting a blog post every 45 minutes. Brett: Right. Um, and, and it started with, with getting completely worn down by just waking up at three or 4:00 AM every morning and not like staying in bed, not getting up and coding like I do when I’m manic. Uh, but just staying in bed and tossing and turning for hours. And then like finally getting up at six and, and drinking coffee and going about my day. But, uh, this is how it began and I’m trying to figure out if there’s something I can do now, I have a therapy appointment today and my therapist is pretty [00:15:00] damn well versed in bipolar. So I’m gonna talk to him and see if there’s something I can do at this point. Well, before I manic to try to, uh, control it a little bit, try to keep it manageable. Jeffrey: Yeah, Brett: Yeah. Jeffrey: it’s so awesome. You have somebody Brett: thanks. Yeah, it took me, took me long enough to find a therapist, but yeah, I think he’s good. Jeffrey: yeah. That’s how it goes. Takes people long enough, Brett: I’m going, I’m going in for the in person. So far, we’ve only known videos. So today I get to, I get to meet him in person and, and I’ll let you know how that goes. Jeffrey: man. I, my therapist only does, um, telehealth and I’m getting to a point where I wish I could do in person Brett: Yeah. Well, I’m curious, I’m curious what the difference is. Like, like he’s hybrid, he’ll do whatever works best for his clients. Um, but I was very curious to like, just [00:16:00] see what the difference is like in person, in someone else’s environment. Um, I just, I’m curious how I will react to opening up in an unfamiliar space instead of in my very cozy office where I feel very at home. Uh, maybe it’ll be better. Maybe it’ll be worse. Uh, we’re gonna find out. Jeffrey: Yeah. I personally find it easier Brett: Yeah. Jeffrey: Yeah. Especially if the therapist has put some, some care into the, the room and the, and the appearance and the feeling of the place. And so that there are just plenty of signals that you are in, you are in a therapeutic space. Your only job is to be here at this time now, Brett: Yeah. Well, it’s kind of Jeffrey: see the other cues in your room. Brett: I haven’t been to a yoga class in person for a couple years now. Um, and my therapist actually suggested I try going in person again. Now that that’s an option. [00:17:00] Um, cuz it wasn’t, I mean pandemic for a while there, everything was zoom based. Um, but then, uh, L my, my girlfriend, who’s also my favorite yoga instructor. Um, she started doing classes at the studio again, but also zooming them. Um, and I just stuck with zoom cuz I gained weight, not because of the pandemic. I just, I gained weight. I was feeling not very confident about my body. Um, and it was easier for me just to be on zoom with the video off and just do the, do the class on my own. But I, I do think there would be a benefit to, uh, like when I’m zooming yoga on my own. There’s a pretty good chance. I check my email in the middle of class Jeffrey: Yeah. Brett: in person in a zoo, in a like live studio, yoga class. I would never check my email and, and [00:18:00] it would be better for me. I would get more out of yoga if I didn’t stop to check my email. How’s how’s your mental health, Jeff. Jeffrey: Um, I’m, I’m doing all right. I, one thing I’ve been really not focusing on that I need to, uh, is, so I take, um, I take medication that helps me sleep. I also take medication that, um, helps me to not have horrible, uh, nightmares, which has been a problem of mine for some time. And, um, and this medication works beautifully for that every once in a while, one breaks through and I wake up and I’m just like, damn it. How did you get through and why? Um, and the, how did you get through and why is something I’m working on right now, which is mostly, looks like me thinking about not acting yet, but thinking about, um, my transition to sleep, because I have a tendency to just sort of. Collapse into [00:19:00] sleep, basically from the day, there’s not much of a transition at all. There’s like a pile of clothes by the side of the bed and, and, uh, and an iPad on top of that when I’m, when I’m done reading or whatever. Um, and, uh, and so I’m trying to work on, uh, sort of long longish set of sort of signals to my brain that it’s time to time to go to sleep, time to rest. Um, and one thing that I know I shouldn’t do is work on configuring shit on my laptop until I’m ready to go to bed and leave my laptop next to me, cuz that makes it, that always makes for a bad sleep night, cuz my brain wants to keep solving problems. Um, and uh, and it just knows that the computer’s right there. So like an example is I know to not have my laptop near my bed and have it downstairs. Um, but anyway, I’m just kind of working on that because you know, my sleep’s been great ever since we sort of dialed in. What I needed medication wise, but there’s, you know, there are things that [00:20:00] medication can’t solve alone and, and that’s what I’m sort of putting my attention to. So, which, I mean, and to say, like, I went so long, really almost from the beginning of the pandemic until about four or five months ago, six months ago, I was waking up multiple times at night, often waking up on the hour at night, not like exactly on the hour, like public radio style, but like inside of every hour, basically. And man did that do a number on me. And so I am every day grateful when I wake up, when I realized I only woke up once and I slept really, really good. So anyway, sleep, sleep. Brett: And you’re back on your ADHD meds now. How’s that gone? Jeffrey: I am. I’m taking my Viva again. Um, that’s going well. I haven’t really, I I’m trying to figure out the sweet spot for taking it. Like sometimes I take it right after breakfast. Sometimes I take it just before lunch. [00:21:00] I have taken it in the early afternoon. Brett: Oh, Jesus. Jeffrey: which has isn’t bad for, well, it should be part of my sleep, uh, factoring. Shouldn’t it. Um, but Brett: it has like, it has like a 16 hour, half life. Jeffrey: I know mostly I take it before 11:00 AM, but I haven’t found like a sweet spot for it, Brett: For me for me, it’s seven. Am I take it religiously? Seven? Am I take my meds at 7:00 AM and 7:00 PM and, and yeah, 7:00 AM is the sweet spot for me, for sure. With five minutes, if I want, cuz I go to bed at like 9:00 PM. Jeffrey: Yeah. Brett: I’m an early, I’m an early to bed guy. Um, and, and, uh, taking it at 7:00 AM means I’m winding down by 9:00 PM. Jeffrey: right. Yeah. That’s smart. Yeah. Yeah. I need to dial that in, but I mean, the good thing is it’s, it’s working out for me. I I’m on a very low dose, which is what I need. And, and, [00:22:00] um, for anybody who’s considering something like an ADHD drug, just, just be so mindful of, of does this dose feel right? Cause I’ve had so many friends who, who were given a higher dose and probably they should right away or were bumped up significantly after starting at a low dose. Brett: So because I recommend Vivance to so many people newly diagnosed with ADHD. Tell me what a low dose is. Jeffrey: 20 milligrams Brett: 20. Okay. Jeffrey: I’ve had, I’ve taken as much as 60. Brett: yeah, I take 60. It, it goes up to 70, 60 is kind of where I found my sweet spot. Um, but yeah, like as far as ADHD, medication goes, five is in my experience, the most mellow, um, it, and to, to, to that end, it’s the least effective for me, but with my bipolar, it’s the one that plays the [00:23:00] nicest, um, that if it, if it weren’t for Vivance, I probably wouldn’t be able to be on any ADHD meds right now because everything else is so prone to triggering manic episodes for me. Um, and Vivance just kind of fits the bill for that. Uh, some people like you react strongly to it and, and it’s all they need at 20 milligrams. Vivance works great. Uh, for me, 60 milligrams is still like, um, I’m still scattered and have trouble with motivation, uh, which I, I don’t on a drug like Focalin or Adderall. Uh, motivation is fine for me. Uh, Vivance does not solve that issue. Um, but it also, it doesn’t cause me other problems. So it’s kind of a, a good drug for that. Jeffrey: Right, right. Yeah, man. Yeah. Medications um, [00:24:00] alright, Brett Terpstra. Brett: by the way, um, Jeffrey: read. Brett: I talked to, I talked to a friend of the show, Erin Dawson and she is totally down to make us some theme music. For, for like mental health corner and gratitude that we can, Jeffrey: Awesome. Brett: we can play in. We can we can, we can break up our segments with a little theme music. Uh, she just, she just wants some idea where to begin with it, uh, some, some direction and, uh, and we can make this happen. Jeffrey: Awesome. That’s Brett: coming, coming soon to a podcast near you. So, uh, yeah, here’s a question. Jeffrey: Yeah. Sponsor: SimpliSafe Brett: Is there anything that matters more than the safety of you and your loved ones? Jeffrey: Well, hold on. That’s the rest of the podcast right there. Oh, sorry. Sponsor Reid. Go ahead. Brett: of course not. So isn’t it strange then that many home security companies don’t act that way. This is why we use and [00:25:00] trust simply safe home security. Their advanced security technology helps us sleep at night and they always put our family’s safety first. Here’s why I love it with 24 7 professional monitoring. Simply save agents, call you the moment of threats, detected and dispatch police, or first responders in an emergency. Even if you’re not home or can’t be reached simply safes monitoring agents truly care about your wellbeing and are highly trained to help you keep calm and safe during stressful situations. Staying on the line with you until help arrives. Simply saves customer first policies. Make sure that you are taken care of with affordable plan starting at less than a dollar a day and no long term contract or hidden fees, because feeling safe at home shouldn’t break the bank. Customize the perfect system for your home and just a few minutes@simplysafe.com slash Overtired. That’s S I M P L I S a e.com/ Overtired. [00:26:00] Go today and claim a free indoor security camera. Plus 20% off with interactive monitoring. Go to simply safe.com/ Overtired. I have, I have over the course of having simply safe as a sponsor. I have really gotten better at saying the word monitoring. Jeffrey: Oh, Brett: that is a really hard word for me because my brain wants to go monitoring, monitoring, Jeffrey: Monitoring word becomes the sound Brett: I over enunciate it, but out of necessity Jeffrey: well, I’m glad to see your growth in that area. Brett: thanks, man. Promo: Soul Forge Brett: Let’s talk about another podcast. Jeffrey: So forge podcast, what is that? It is the ultimate source for learning to live your best life episodes have covered heartbreak, dementia, suicide, and transgender issues. And there are episodes on sex, tattoos, collecting, road trips and puppies, [00:27:00] exclamation point. You never know what the next episode will bring. So come on and forge your soul with the soul forge podcast. It’s everywhere you find podcasts. Brett’s New Song Drops! Brett: I put out music every once in a while. and it gets zero traction. Like I have dad jokes that get more response than the music I put out, which really leads me to Jeffrey: you just put music out? Brett: I did just put, uh, a cover of the kinks. Um, not like everybody else. Um, and yeah, and, and I really enjoyed doing a, uh, fun cover of it. But man, like my SoundCloud, I get like nine listens. I’ll like, I’ll like tweet about it. I’ll Facebook about it, you know, and I’ve got a fair number of followers and nine people will go check it out and, and they, Jeffrey: 10. I Brett: and they, and they won’t say anything like I’ll get zero comments about it. And I’ll just [00:28:00] assume Jeffrey: feels good. Brett: I’ll assume it was so bad that people listened to it and just like embarrassed for me. You ever been at a party where like the host, like corners you in his bedroom and makes you listen to his demo tape? Jeffrey: Uh, be less specific. Brett: it’s happened to me more than once. That’s why I consider this a generality. Jeffrey: Uh, got it. Brett: like when I was touring with a band and we’d go to like, after show parties, so frequently would like a, a host of, of whatever house we were at. Be like, Hey, come here, come here, come here. You gotta hear this. You gotta hear my one man. Four track demo tape. And then for like 30 minutes would like pumble you with sounds you just could not get excited about. Jeffrey: I, um, I did two things to prevent [00:29:00] that kind of thing from happening to me on tour. one is I played drums in a way that I I’ve come to learn scared people and the other is. I slept in the van, no matter what the fuck we were doing, I was like, I am not going in there. I am not going through that portal in fucking Missoula, Montana. like, I have no idea what’s gonna happen in there. I want nothing to do with it. I sleep in the van. Brett: so what you’re saying is I played bass too approachable. Jeffrey: yeah, you play face too approachable. I’m always, oh, people say I’m nice guy, but get this that I’m scary. Brett: I used, I often people would tell me when they first met me, they thought I was gonna punch them. And I have never once met someone and thought I was gonna punch Jeffrey: Yeah, Brett: Um, well, okay. It I’m sure it has happened, but for the most part, I’m super into meeting people. And, uh, [00:30:00] I guess I used to come off as very intense. Um, and I it’s still to this day, I don’t know what that’s about, but I apparently it’s gotten better because people tell me I’m a God like these days. Jeffrey: Ah, sucks, except for whoever punched you in the face. Oh, wait, that was your carpet. Brett: yeah, we, we have a history now. Why Brett Makes the Tools He Makes Jeffrey: Um, okay. I wanna talk to you about something and we’re, we’ve, we’ve gone pretty deep into the episode, but I want to try it anyhow. Um, and see, so I’ve been, I, I have used so many of your tools, Brett. It’s how I came to be a guest on your podcast. Systematic way, way, way back in the day was I followed your blog and you put out a call, uh, for guests or guest suggestions. And one of my colleagues submitted me. I jokingly call the collection of tools that I use your collection of tools that I use Terpstra OS. [00:31:00] Um, and I’ve been sort of revisiting some of them. Recently just cuz you have, you know, in the last couple years you’ve added a lot to, a lot of the things that I like to use. Um, but I wanted to talk to you about something that just struck me so hard. So the thing that I love about your tools is that they allow me to forget. They give me confidence that I can remember. Um, and for me not remembering is an extreme source of anxiety and can be a source of panic. And knowing that I can forget, therefore brings me a sense of peace and ease. I listed this list here. I listed your apps that I used and your tools that I use. And then I made a remembering statement next to them. Cause I was so struck by this. So I’m just gonna go through this. It’s bear with me. All right. Brett: [00:32:00] Yeah, Jeffrey: First one quick question. Remember the elusive answer to a persistent question doing, remember what I was doing or feeling, and when bunch, remember how I like my computer environment to be set up in countless contexts? How’s it remember how I built or configured a thing. Tag filer, which doesn’t get talked about much. Brett: it. Doesn’t. Jeffrey: remember where my documents go. Pod Tager. Remember how to do podcast metadata, cheaters. Oh, cheaters. Remember my keyboard shortcuts and commands and, and various little bits about my apps. And then markdown service tools, remember markdown syntax and apply it, right. It leaves out your writing stuff. NV, NV, ultra marked gather for gathering up markdown from a webpage, you know, mark down, editing for sublime text, which you don’t control anymore, but which [00:33:00] you wrote. And I still use, I think you still use it. Right. Um, but it’s so intense to me and it’s intense how easy it is to make a remember statement for all your tools. When I read that list, what, what do you think? Brett: So I, I would like to, okay. I, I have multiple things, but, uh, first of all, uh, uh, I like Terpstra OS. Jay Miller came up with the term TT tools, Jeffrey: Ooh. Brett: which I, I like cuz my name is B R E TT. And my handle is TT scoff and we just go with TT tools. Um, I, when I realized it came up on my calendar that it was Yeti’s birthday, but I could not remember how old he was. And I remembered that I had had this question in years past and all I had to do in my terminal was type QQ. Yeti’s how old is Yeti QQ? How old is Yeti? [00:34:00] And my, my computer was able to immediately tell me what year he was born and, and extrapolate from there. Um, and that absolutely memory. I have a, I have a shit memory. I have an ADHD person’s memory, uh, that has been affected by drug use and, and the meds I take. Um, I was on like, uh, stuff like, uh, what’s shoot, um, sleeping pills, uh, ambient type of pills for a long time, which just decimated my memory. And a lot of the tools I make are very much about being able to answer my own questions. Um, when I Google for the answer to a problem, there’s a 50% chance I get my own blog back as a response. And that’s where [00:35:00] search link came from. Like Jeffrey: Search link. Oh, right. Search link. Yeah. Brett: search search link was a way for me to, to find answers on my own blog without constantly switching to a web browser and yeah. Memory, it, it you’re, you are a hundred percent correct. So many of my tools are just about being able to remember and being able to feel confident because it is, uh, it is very it’s disconcerting and, and anxiety producing to, to, to know that you figure something out, but that you will forget it. Um, and in my case, I’ll forget it in a week. It’s not a matter of like a year later it’s it’s a week or less that I will forget that I found the answer to something and, and that produces anxiety. And just having ways, uh, goes back to like, when I first read, uh, GT D by David Allen, this whole idea of mine, like water and being able to [00:36:00] have a trusted, a trusted bucket where you could dump the things you needed to do. And know that you wouldn’t forget them, that you would be able to find them and that you would be able to get them done. And, and my brain extrapolated that to, I need a trusted bucket for literally everything. I learn everything. I figure out everything that I do. I need a way to have some faith that I will be able to rediscover this in the future. Um, and yeah, things like QQ and, and doing definitely are like, that’s a core principle of them. Jeffrey: Wait. I remember you had a, I don’t know if it was a bookmarklet or it was a tool that, um, helped to, uh, that helped to sort of document your stack overflow queries. What was that? Describe that. Brett: so, and, and that’s what gather has become now. Um, uh, I had [00:37:00] bullseye. Which when I, when I found an answer it, and it worked with Marky, the mark down to fire, which was the web API version of gather. Um, and it would basically, you would, you would click on a stack overflow solution page. You would just click inside the answer you wanted to save, and it would create a markdown version for you that you could pop right into envy or into envy ultra, um, and marking the markdown. A fire has fallen by the wayside, uh, but gather the tool I most recently updated, uh, in a manic episode, um, can, it has special handling built in for stack overflow pages. So if you, and, and it has options, you can choose to only save the accepted answer. you can choose to include or exclude comments because a lot of times the answer you want, the [00:38:00] actual answer will be in the comments to the answer. Like someone will say, this didn’t work. Why and someone else will say do it this way. Um, so there are times that I do or, or don’t want to include the comments. Um, and all of that is now built into gather as options and basically can save any time. I find what I’m looking for in stack overflow, which is the most common place I find programming answers. Um, I can save it as a markdown file, easily searchable, instantly indexed in NVI ultra. Jeffrey: I remember once you, when we first started working together, I mean, just for people’s background, you started working with me really as a consultant on workflows and, um, things related to my investigative work and, and that kind of grew into some real meaningful tool building. We first started working together. I was . I remember [00:39:00] I, I wrote you and I said, oh my God, I just dove into bunch, but here’s the thing off the record. Are you gonna be developing this thing for a while? Because I’m about to go deep, right? Cause it had been kinda left alone for a while and you’re like, no, no, it’s it’s there, it’s there. And so I said, will you send me just a couple of your own bunch files so I can get a feel for it? And what I learned and have learned from you since is that often your tools, which have a million wonderful tentacles, you’re only really employing. A handful of them. Brett: Yeah. Jeffrey: Is that the case with most of your tools? Brett: It, when I first started programming, I was only coding for myself. I was solving problems like it started like my first programming was basic. And then, uh, like I moved on to Pascal and did a bunch of like game programming in high school. Uh, but most of where I really got into creative programming was with like VB script in an old app called [00:40:00] home sea, uh, which was a home automation app on PC. And, uh, Jeffrey: like around what year-ish Brett: this would’ve been like 97, 98, no, Jeffrey: was being automated. Brett: no, 2000, 2000, 2001. Um, X, 10 X, 10 home appliance automation. Um, but. I, I didn’t, I had never released, I had never shared any of these automations. They were just for me and I wasn’t active on like the message boards or anything. And it wasn’t until I got a Mac, uh, that I actually made something worth sharing or that I considered like maybe other people would want this. And the thing I learned very quickly is that everyone has their own needs. And as someone who eventually became part of, kind of the software ecosystem for [00:41:00] max, uh, which didn’t start for me until 2000, um, uh, I, I, I learned that there’s kind of a standard number of features that make things generally usable. And I be, I over time got really good at predicting what people, what feature requests were gonna come in. So, so it can do this, but here’s what I need to do. Um, and, and I learned how to build something that had more general appeal, uh, than just solving my problem and to make something that could solve other people’s problems. And that’s kind of the core of everything I do is I made this to solve a problem I had, but I understood that my problems might not be universal. So I made it more general, uh, so that it could solve other pre other people’s problems as [00:42:00] well. Jeffrey: And well, and in doing so you, one of the other sort of tenants of everything you build is it gives the user such a sense of control, um, that would otherwise, like you have to have a little bit of literacy to get. To get deep into any of your tools, but only a little bit and, and having a little bit, and then having your tools like it’s a to use a military analogy, it’s a force multiplier. It’s like, I can’t believe, I mean, uh, bunch is such a great example, right? I can write a text file and bunch that had, I tried to do this without bunch. Would’ve been a really complex script that would’ve had to spend a year studying a language to do. Brett: Well, and the beauty of bunch is nobody does the same thing with it. No two people are using it to do the exact same thing. And you can share bunches with people as kind of an example. Here’s what you can do, but it is 100% you [00:43:00] customize it to your specific needs and it is built to, to handle the most esoteric of, of requirements. Uh, the first, the first app, the first editor I used on Mac OS was text made. it blew me away. Having spent a lifetime using windows and, and kind of limited apps that you had to have a, a higher level of proficiency in order to customize, uh, than I had at the time. Um, I started using text mate and I learned Ruby just to write text mad extensions, uh, but it provided, it provided this framework that I could make it do anything, any, any text editing tool I wanted, I could just make, and it was worth learning a new programming language just to be able to extend this app and the [00:44:00] extensibility of, of text mate. It leads to problems for developers because not only are you supporting your own software, now you’re supporting everything your users wanna do with your software. um, and it’s, you’re opening up a whole can of worms, but like it’s the reason I built custom processors into marked. Uh, so people could make it work with pan doc or ask EOC or whatever processor they wanted to preview their, their text files with was all kind of this text BA mentality of extensibility that the user should be able to extend what you’ve done. Jeffrey: Well, then it’s interesting that you bring up the, you had said, you know, in, in, in developing something like text mate, the developers had to support their app and all the things people wanted to do with it. You kind of walk this line where you make your tools. It almost seems like as extensible as possible, but you do stop [00:45:00] short of making it so that everyone’s making their own plugins. For instance, is that intentional? Brett: Um, so part of that is a lack of skill on my, on my part, um, doing is the first app I’ve ever written that allows, uh, truly has a plugin architecture. Um, and, and I don’t think I, to this day, I don’t think anyone’s attempted to use it yet, but these Jeffrey: I was even aware of the Brett: yeah, these days when I add a new feature to doing I U I do it through a plugin architecture, uh, where each feature exists as, as a plugin that you can add and remove and doing even has built in commands for adding and removing its own sub Jeffrey: Yes. Okay. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Brett: So, so I built a true plugin architecture for doing, um, you, you could look at custom [00:46:00] processors in marked as, as plugins, but really you’re just, you’re giving it a shell command to run. Um, and that shell command can be a custom script and you can go nuts with it, but it doesn’t have a direct plugin architecture with its own, like API and SDK, uh, with which to interface. And I’m only now learning like exactly how, how to engineer, something like that. Uh, and, and I, I couldn’t, I, I don’t think I have the skill yet to do that with something like marked, uh, using objective C, but, um, I could see doing it with swift, uh, creating like a JavaScript API for it. Um, And, and adding that kind of extensibility, but it hasn’t been for it hasn’t been because I didn’t want to do the customer support, like some of my favorite apps, like, uh, keyboard Myro for example, uh, [00:47:00] have an, a full SDK, uh, that you can tap into, uh, even launch bar has, has a JavaScript SDK and an AppleScript SDK that you can, you can build your extensions off of. And, and yeah, I wanna offer that it hasn’t been out of fear of doing the customer support. It’s been really a lack of, uh, experience in doing that. Jeffrey: Interesting. I always just assumed it was just a matter of like here, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do everything I can to make this thing as usable as possible. But like, especially now at this point in your life, you’ve got a full-time job. So it’s like, you can’t necessarily handle all Brett: I’m not the genius I’m giving credit for being. Like I’m, I’m just figuring this shit out. Like everybody else, I just happen to have a creative mind that, um, that can take a problem. And I have enough of a foundation to come up with a solution, but there’s always room for improvement in everything I do. And I’m [00:48:00] constantly learning new things and I’m not like I, I, I worship at the feet of some of the, like the developers in the community, uh, Daniel Jka, Andreas Hackenberg, uh, rich Siegel. Like these people can do so much more than I can do and have so much more skill. And I learn, I learn stuff from them every day. Jeffrey: What about, okay. So when I, when I talked about how so many of your tools have this thread of remembering you, it was very easy for you to connect it to your own life and your own sort of you were able to make an existential connection right away. What about when it comes to this other feature of all your tools, which is just. Empowering people giving not, I don’t mean that. I don’t mean that to sound trite, but like giving people power over their machine, um, in ways that would otherwise take a whole different, like a huge set of knowledge. Like why, why do you do that?[00:49:00] Brett: because Jeffrey: don’t, you don’t, you don’t, you don’t, uh, you don’t reign in it at all. You’re just like, here’s everything you might need this. I don’t know. Try it. You gotta try it. Brett: okay. So that’s part of the beauty of, of Mac OS. Um, at least historically is it has given users these tools, uh, to, to build their own experience. And I found them extremely gratifying and fulfilling, and I basically realized that a lot of people just didn’t have the building. To make use of tools like automator and apple script and, uh, the, the basic things that came with Mac OS. So when I would create a tool using these tools, like the markdown service tools, for example, um, I would find ways to publish them so that people who didn’t have those building blocks to start with could [00:50:00] still experience the power that Mac O S provided. Um, and this is, this is the thing that I never found on windows. And it’s, it’s what sold beyond max was the, the kind of power to the people that it offered. Um, and, and I just like, I, I got so much fulfillment from it and I get so much fulfillment from solving problems for other people. Like, I really find a lot of meaning in providing tools to people to do. Things that they aren’t, they need to do, but don’t have the tools set themselves. So like, it’s, it’s a fulfilling, um, endeavor for me to kind of bridge that gap between here are the tools that you’re given and here’s what you can do with them. And here’s the tool that you can now customize to do what you need to do with Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s a nice way [00:51:00] of, of describing what you make. Um, I’m curious, like in a given day, um, in a given day for you, what tools of yours are you using? Not, not hacking on that building, but using, uh, Brett: oh man. Okay. So search link and doing are constant for me, NA, um, which is, is short for next action. Uh, anytime I CD into a project directory, it will tell me. I need to do next. Um, just, it like pops up above my prompt and says, these are the things that last time you were here, you determined were going to be your next actions. Uh, so just as I CD around my computer, um, I use bunch frequently. Um, I use some custom MailMate commands that some of which I’ve published some I haven’t. Um, I use the markdown service tools all the time. Uh, I use search link more than the markdown service tools, [00:52:00] but, uh, yeah, Jeffrey: what’s running in the background all the same, like tag filer, Brett: tag, father’s always running. Uh, I have some, uh, uh, there’s another one I use called I think I just called it image Optim, cuz it uses image Optim, but like for, for preparing all of my images for. It’s a Hazel script that runs, um, I have a bunch of Hazel scripts that things just happen on my machine that I don’t have to think about. They’re not forefront in my mind. Jeffrey: right, right. Not one of your tools, but kind of something that you’ve cobbled together, your own mini tools inside of. Brett: and how’s, it is integral to everything I do. Like how’s it. I use how’s it minus R, which runs a topic, uh, executes, whatever executable code I put into a topic. Um, quick, quick explanation. How’s it basically you create a markdown file [00:53:00] that explains that reminds you how you do different things like build and deploy and edit. Um, so I can include code in like the deploy topic in the markdown file. I can include a code. That will run the deploy and, you know, like whether that’s AJE build and an R sync, or whether it’s a swift compile or an objective C uh, like, uh, an Xcode build command, I can put them all into a topic called deploy. And so no matter what project I’m in, I can type how’s it minus our deploy and it will deploy it using whatever, like a make file kind of thing. Uh, it just automates everything. And I alias that in Phish. And so I type BLD, D E P L, and I can deploy any project. Um, and that is, that’s a constant for me, so many of these [00:54:00] tools and it’s it. Like I use mark once in a while. Uh, it’s it doesn’t, I don’t have a daily need for mark when I’m, when I’m doing editing for work. And I, I wanna see like where I repeated a word too many times marked is great. And, uh, and because our entire workflow is, is GitHub and marked down based, uh, it’s handy, but it’s not this constant driver. The way a lot of my smaller utilities are, Jeffrey: and Phish too, is something where you’ve written about just stuff that you’ve Brett: I’ve written a lot of stuff for Phish and I’m on the verge of switching to Z show. Um, I, I have that ADHD boredom setting in Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. You’ve you’ve done Phish. Brett: I’ve done Phish. Um, like I still love Phish it’s it’s, it’s still, you know, it’s, it’s what I live in right now, but, uh, but I, I, I, I pop open a, an I term profile that loads up Z shell, uh, with, oh my Z shell and all the plugins I’m playing with. And, and I’m like, oh [00:55:00] man, Z, Shell’s pretty fucking great. Jeffrey: That’s great. That’s great. As a Z shell, I, I speak on, I speak on behalf of all Z shell users. We’re excited. You might be diving in. Um, I I’m wondering, well, first of all, let me just say for anybody who doesn’t know this, and I’m sure most of you do, Brent has a section on his website. Just called projects. And, uh, you can go and look at, look up any of these projects cuz we’re kind of mentioning them very quickly, but you know, it’s, it’s interesting as you’re talking, I’m realizing again, I’m gonna look at this list. Like so many of these things, these tools are just built on highly readable text files, right? Like how’s it, how’s it a file is, is a, is a very readable, simple text file. A bunch file is a very readable, simple text file. Um, you know, like even like something a quick question, which I love so much where you just can get on the command line and say, you know, like, this is the question and this is the answer. And it creates a text file where you know, the name of the text file is the [00:56:00] question and inside is the answer. And what quick question, lets you do is sort of query that basically, but it’s all Brett: and doing an NA both work work with task paper, format files. Jeffrey: yes. Doing and yeah, exactly. It’s just, this is something that’s so, so striking to me about your work. And I think why those of us who use your stuff and get excited about anything you’re doing it, the reason it’s exciting is it kind of feels like the world ought to be this way. Right. Like it, it, it really does feel like, um, something like a direction the world could have gone that it didn’t go Brett: well, there’s, there is, there’s a movement that’s been going on for 10 years. This like plain text. Plain text revival. I mean, it’s where, it’s where it all started. Like the first days of Unix, everything was text files and then people started building WordStar and word. Perfect. And all these formats that eventually went by the wayside, leaving all of your documents [00:57:00] inaccessible, but the thing you could still access was your text files. Your, your readme files were still perfectly readable and people have realized that there’s no, there’s no format. Even a pages document from five years ago requires conversion to open now and Jeffrey: Or, or in some cases, not pages, but certain word. Perfect. You might need an ator to Brett: oh Jeffrey: we, we have a computer running windows 95 here. So like an actual old computer for fun. And I actually popped in all my discs that I thought were dead cuz they weren’t working. When I went through an emulator, I’m like, oh my God, all my files are here. Brett: Yeah, but, but your text file, no one’s ever had a problem opening a text file. So my, if I’m going to have that faith that I’m going to remember something, and that it’s going to be accessible. It has to be in plain text because that is the one format that will out survive every other format. [00:58:00] Uh, and the stuff that I record now and back up to my Sonology and back up to glacier, uh, like these files will persist and I will always have this information. Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s a beautiful, elegant thing. I mean, I’ve, I’ve actually what I did this year was started to make sure I have like, kinda like an archive directory, but in it is the text filet thing I could come to as an archive of my Twitter. Uh, my full like history of tweets, my, all of my WhatsApp conversations, um, all of my messages, conversations, like all these things are in sort of some version of a text file, whether it’s like a CSV or a, you know, and, and I know that it’s become a memory bank for me. Like I’m starting to use it. I’m not that old, but I’m getting to a point in my life where I realize I really need to have a little, you know, grab bag I can reach into and pull out what I. Rather than having to try to search around my computer and figure out did [00:59:00] I write a document about that or whatever, anyway, that again, plain text, right? Like CSV files, um, markdown files, whatever. Yeah. Beautiful scripts, right? Like scripts are a way of remembering like, oh, this is how I wrote this Brett: well, that is totally automation like that is automation is great for time saving, but that’s only half the story. Like if you automate something, you are basically creating a permanent record of how to do something properly and you’re going to do it consistently and you’re not gonna miss steps. And it basically, it sets in stone a process, uh, and it may, it might take you four hours to write an automation that only takes 30 seconds to run. Um, but for me, like when I come back to that a month later and can’t remember what the commands were or what the sequence was or what, what things had to happen in the process. Um, and that’s part of when I built house it, like it [01:00:00] doesn’t, it doesn’t just run things. You can also include notes that will come up to say, here’s the step you need to do before this Jeffrey: how I use it. Yeah. Brett: here’s, here’s the step you need to do after it runs. Like these are things that can’t be automated, but I can record them and I can have them come up in an automated way to remind me like about processes and yeah. It’s memory. It’s all memory Jeffrey: This reminds me of, um, Uh, okay, so this is something I wanted to talk to you about, which is actual documentation of tools because, um, your documentation is, is really excellent and, you know, clearly written and, and very, very sort of like geared towards the reader. Like you’re speaking to the reader as the person doing the documentation, rather than like, I don’t know what you would call the voice of most documentation, but I don’t know who the fuck it’s talking to. It’s it’s like a machine person they’re talking to. Um, but your documentation [01:01:00] is so crisp and clear. And I wondered if, um, I wondered if the process of writing documentation happens, uh, you know, sort of isolated way when you’re done with something or if it’s actually part of creating a tool, like, are you writing a little bit and going, oh, this makes me realize I should add this to the tool and then you’re programming and then you’re writing. How does it, how does it happen for Brett: So the initial, like the initial creation of a tool is a flurry of coding and there’s not a lot of pausing. Um, just like, oh, and I can, it can do this and it can do this and it can do this and it, oh. And I’ll like, rewind, restart, get it done. Then I’ll sit back and be like, how would I explain to this, to somebody? Um, this thing that I just put 14 hours into, how would I, how would I convey my own excitement about this? And I sit down and I write the initial documentation from that point on every time I add a feature, I immediately. Add it to the [01:02:00] documentation, uh, with something like bunch, like every time I add a new feature, the first thing I do is write about it. And like the bunch documentation is some of the best documentation I’ve written to date. Uh, it’s literally a whole website full of, of explanations and, and step by step, uh, procedures. Um, and, and documenting it also helps me find bugs. So it becomes part of the workflow. Uh, I say, this is what it should do. And then I go test it and it doesn’t do that. And, and so then I will revise the code to. Jeffrey: Fact checking. Brett: Yeah, exactly. The fastest way to find bugs is to make a screencast about something you Jeffrey: Oh, totally. Totally. Brett: wrong will Jeffrey: Yes. Brett: But yeah, so like there’s, there’s an initial flurry of coding and then documentation, but from that point on, yeah. Documentation is part of the [01:03:00] development process Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. That thing about screen casting. Helping to find bugs. It’s almost like, I’m sure you’ve had this experience. You, you go on a stack overflow and you’re about three sentences done from posting your question and you’re like, oh, I know the answer. Brett: yeah, totally, totally. Jeffrey: needed to write about it first. Brett: Yep. Yeah. Jeffrey: that’s awesome. Um, oh Brett: out, writing things out in, in plain English or whatever your native language is. Um, definitely is a problem solving step. Jeffrey: yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, let me ask you this last question. I know that when you were. Making changes to gather recently, it was your first time really diving into swift. Brett: Yeah. Jeffrey: And I have a two part question to close this out. one is, do you ever have a sort of roadmap in your mind for what you want to do next? And I don’t mean what you want to add to an existing [01:04:00] tool, but like, are there, are there ever tools that are just in your head that you want to build or is it, are you reactionary enough in terms of like, holy shit, I need this now I’m gonna build it. Now that doesn’t happen. That’s my first question. Brett: So usually like a tool, like gather, which was actually a revision of multiple tools before it, but like, it’ll be something. Is an idea in the back of my head for a while before I actually sit down and start coding on it. Um, it’ll be a cool thing that I think could happen, but there, like no one has published yet. Um, so like I’ll first, I’ll go Google and if someone’s already done it great. I will gladly use other people’s tools. But, um, yeah, like then I’ll, I’ll start to code. It’s not reactionary, uh, so much as, it is exploratory. Um, Jeffrey: yeah, yeah, yeah, Brett: and then like [01:05:00] feature additions are often due to responses from after I publish something. Someone will say that’s cool, but can it do, and I will make a judgment call. Yeah. That actually fits with the original mission statement. And it should be able to do that or. That’s out of scope. Um, you know, that’s, that’s another tool you’re thinking of and, and, and I will choose to, or not to add a feature. Um, but the initial it’s always just exploratory to begin with. Jeffrey: mm-hmm . And so, and so do you have a sense, is there something banging around in your head or that’s a, that’s a awful, uh, is there something kind of, uh, in your head now that you’re thinking, like, if I ever, if I build another app, like an actual app, like a marked or, or an NV alter or something, which I know is still in progress, like, do you have a sense of what that would be? You don’t have to say it. Yeah. Brett: yeah, I don’t like right now. Right. Like right [01:06:00] now, what my mind obsesses about is getting NV ultra. Up and out. Uh, and I think about the things that I need it to do and that I, that I want it to do. Um, and I’m, I’m focused on the tools that I have in progress right now. I don’t currently have anything in mind for an app that needs to be built. It will come, you know, Jeffrey: yeah. Brett: give it a little time and there’ll be something else that I need to tackle. Um, but no, I don’t like I’ve built as of this moment. I’ve built everything that’s on my mind. Jeffrey: So the last, the second part of the two part question, and then we’ll do gratitude for sure. Just running a little long. I think that’s fine. Um, is now that you’ve gone into swift, you know, I was thinking about, you were saying you learned Ruby really as a way of, um, customizing text made. Right. Uh, and, and Ruby’s just not like a language that [01:07:00] it, people are seem to be like picking up now. Right. I’m not, I’m not making fun of it Brett: not the new kid on the block. Jeffrey: no. And I, and I’m not even playing that game. Like, I, I, I don’t like that kind of discussion too much because I actually don’t know Ruby, but I find it a pretty beautiful language when I, when I do explore it or especially when you write something and I just kind of, for me, that I have to look through or whatever. Um, but do you imagine yourself. In five years thinking of yourself as a swift person, rather than a Ruby person, Brett: Yes. Um, Jeffrey: bash person. You’re a fucking bash person. My brother Brett: I, I was, I haven’t written a bash script for, I don’t know how long, like I learning swift was extremely. I was very grateful, uh, that I found it in me to learn a new language because there have been a few languages on my list, go rust swift, um, that I have known if I was going to keep up my [01:08:00] coding skills I needed to learn. Um, and I was worried that I’d gotten to an age where I just wasn’t able to pick up new languages anymore. Um, and so the, the flurry of coding that led to, uh, developing enough basics in swift to write a small app, uh, was just so grateful to know that my brain can still do that. Um, and I hope that five years from now I’m well versed in swift and I’ve also picked up rust and. Jeffrey: Mm-hmm Brett: and Scala and like really like gotten myself into modern, modern programming languages. Uh, I, I hope, I hope well into will say my seventies, uh, that, that I continue to learn. Jeffrey: yeah, you can always go back to basic. Did you have the book? Did you have the, the [01:09:00] binder in the slip Brett: I did. I did with that 10, that 10 neural cover. Jeffrey: And beautifully designed by the way. Brett: I actually am working, uh, at work right now. We’re working on a Twitter based compiler language. Uh, that people can send tweets that will cause a massive raspberry pie cluster to perform different functionality. Um, so as a part of doing this, I have to dig into the literally the basics of compiler theory. And, and it is, it’s like going back to basic because it’s, it’s, it’s the basics of compiler theory because we want us a, a concise language with very simple, uh, outputs and yeah, it reminds me a lot of working in basic Jeffrey: That’s amazing. I love it. Basic, you know, I [01:10:00] recently got a TRS 80, Brett: yeah. Trash Jeffrey: yeah, the trash 80, but it’s like the handheld version. It was from a, a friend used it as a reporter for the start to be, Brett: no way. Jeffrey: on like a Southeast Asia trip in the eighties. Brett: Oh, wow. That’s amazing. Jeffrey: great. And I’m thinking of just, I want to, he had programmed, uh, a space invaders game in there, but it’s not there anymore, you know, by Brett: Was this, did this have like a, like an 80 character wide by, by eight pixels, tall little screen on Jeffrey: Yep. Brett: Yeah. Jeffrey: Yep. Wonderful keyboard works like a charm still fucking works. Brett: that’s awesome. Jeffrey: and the best part is that he gave me the custom documentation that the star Tribune used, which is the, uh, Minnesota or the twin cities paper. And they actually said instructions for using the trash ad at the top. It was amazing. Um, alright, let’s do some gratitude and thanks for talking to me, uh, about, about, uh, about you. That was super interesting. Brett: for the delightful questions. That was really fun. I, I, [01:11:00] I had been, I had been hoping for the Jeff treatment. Jeffrey: I feel like now you guys Brett: your interview with Christina, Jeffrey: Yeah. If one of you is gone, the other one’s gonna get interviewed. Um, do you wanna go first? You want me to Grapptitude Brett: Sure sure. I, uh, I’m actually picking task paper this week. Uh, task paper, uh, Jesse Gross, Jean created a very simple, uh, text based format for creating to-do lists and, and adding some basic tagging and due dates and things like that. All with just text files you could read in any editor, and then he built a, an app, uh, to streamline working with, uh, these text based files where you could, you know, have keyboard shortcuts for completing tasks or moving them around between projects. And, uh, and there’s a whole query syntax, uh, that you can use to, uh, you [01:12:00] can take a huge. Task paper file and query out just the, the things you need, for example, your next actions, things that don’t have, or that have a start date that is current and aren’t finished yet. Like you can, you can get a list of those things and, and batch add tags to them. And, um, it’s not a complex program. Uh, it is a very elegant, uh, very easy to use way to accomplish a lot of what you would do in like something like OmniFocus, uh, but using all plain text. And I love it. And as mentioned, uh, a lot of the apps and tools that I’ve written work directly with the task paper format, because it is a universal text based format that it just, it works. Jeffrey: Do it, your, your tool doing calls for a task paper. Brett: Yep. Jeffrey: And NA [01:13:00] awesome. I love that. You know, I, I recently found, I, I used to, I was doing a, um, research project about five years ago and it involved interviewing a ton of teachers and asking ’em basically the same set of questions. And, um, the, the way that my list of questions went is there were a couple of questions that had to get asked. I had to ask these to every single person, cuz it was a research project and the rest were like sort of a menu of options. And I was able to work with custom styles and task paper where I made, um, a list of questions for an interview. And when I would finish a question, I would, I would click it and it wouldn’t like strike it out. It would. I’m trying to kind of light gray. So it was kind of there, but in the background, cause some reason the striking it out was just noisy to me as I was looking at the transcript and then it was actually able to show me like, Hey, you forgot this, you forgot that. You know, these are one of the important questions you’ve been rambling on. You have to answer this question before this interview is done. Like it’s one of those things that’s just super extensible. Um, and Brett: actually, I. Jeffrey: as it is. Brett: I use [01:14:00] custom themes, that color, uh, tasks, uh, based on tags. I, I use priority tags at priority one through at priority five. And I have, I have little scripts that let me with keyboard shortcuts assign a priority very quickly. Uh, and then the tasks, the background color of the task changes based on its priority. So I can see at a glance, like what is high priority at any given time? Jeffrey: and there’s a developer who, I mean, I remember listening to an interview with him on Systematic. Is a lot like you and, and really has as his value, a sort of, you know, when you open up an app, are you able to just comfortably calmly start working? Brett: Yeah. Jeffrey: You know, and I love that. I love that idea and, and task paper is certainly one of those. Um, my app is peak P E E K by big Z labs. You know, this one, Brett. [01:15:00] So it’s a, it’s a paid app through an eight bucks. And it’s a quick look extension for your Mac. And it’s a wild, quick look extension. It will change your life. First of all, it works with more than 500 file extensions. So I know, you know, if anybody’s ever been in that situation where you, you know, you’ve got your in finder and you hit the space bar a quick look and all you get is the icon like that is almost not happening to me anymore, but more incredible. Is that you can do, like if you’re looking at code, you can jump to lines, you can copy, uh, text. It does scroll restoring. Um, it does syntax highlighting. Uh, it’s just, it’s the most beautiful thing. It’s everything that I always want to be able to do. When I quick look something I don’t want to have to open it. I just want to grab this one piece out of it. Brett: and markdown preview. Jeffrey: And the markdown preview is really nice. Really Brett: with, with [01:16:00] automatic table of contents Jeffrey: yes. With a sidebar that has your main headers. I mean, it’s just, Brett: And that copy paste is so handy and it works in forklift and Pathfinder too. Jeffrey: Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. So, so good. Yep. Oh wait. Did, does my forklift do that because of Brett: Yeah. Jeffrey: I was like, oh, forklift does this too. Brett: Yeah. Jeffrey: I’ve just started reacquainting myself with forklift after. Reacquainting myself with Pathfinder and deciding I still didn’t want to be in that universe. Brett: yeah, no. Uh, after it was just this year, I think, um, forklift directly integrated peak into the preview, um, also integrates with Huda spot Jeffrey: And kaleidoscope Brett: yeah, yeah, Jeffrey: You just, you click two files in the split finder window and, and there’s a button there and you get kaleidoscope for diff uh, for D [01:17:00] display. Brett: Good stuff. Jeffrey: yes. All right, Brett, it’s been a pleasure. Brett: Hey, thank you. Thank you for a fun interview episode. Jeffrey: Yeah, it was fun. Get some sleep. Brett: Get some sleep.

Buzz-free version! Bryan Guffey returns to talk about therapy as a commodity, Brenden Fraser in a fat suit (and the ethics of fat suits in the first place), good doctors, and a bunch of random stuff in-between! Show Links Harlan Band’s Descent Started With an Easy Online Adderall Prescription Brendan Fraser Hoped He’d Be ‘Unrecognizable’ in ‘The Whale’ Transformation Taylor Swift: Midnights Columbia House craft.io Homebrew Table Flip Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jeffreyguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript The Many Returns of Bryan Guffey Tired. So tired Overtired. Jeff: Hello people. This is Jeff Severns gunzel this is the Overtired podcast. We have a special guest today. First. I want to introduce my cohosts. Christina Warren. Hello, Christina Christina: Hello. Jeff: and Brett Terpstra. Hello, Brett. Brett: Oh, hi, Jeff: Brett has a beard. He’s thinking of shaving, but we won’t get into that Um, unless he actually starts to shave it in on the episode. Brett: That’s terrible radio. Jeff: and our very special guest Brian Guffy, uh, is here, been here many times before. Hello, Brian. Welcome back. Bryan: Hello. Hello. Glad to be here. Very excited and very caffeinated. Christina: Yay. Jeff: good. Christina: That is very. Jeff: What type of caffeinated? Like too much coffee or too much red bull. Bryan: Starbucks cold brew. Brett: Man. I got this stuff from this company called wandering bear. They ship you like winery in a box except it’s coffee. So I have this like tap in my fridge that I can just pour out a full glass of cold brew. Anytime I want to. It’s dangerous. And I’m on a subscription plan. It just constantly refills itself. It’s like magic. Jeff: Wandering bear. That could be my street name. Bryan: honestly, I feel you Brett: I feel like that given, given your heterosexuality that might give the wrong impression to some people. Bryan: haven’t been wandering enough lately. So that’s my problem is I would be like stagnant bear. Jeff: so listen, I know you’ve been on a bunch of times, but do you want to give a little introduction to Brian Guffy before we start talking about things? Bryan: Sure I can do a real quick thing. Um, so let’s see. I host, uh, the podcast’s unsolicited fatties talkback and, um that’s with Deshaun Harrison, Mikey Mercedes, and Caleb Luna and Jordan Underwood, where we just talk about, basically we take advice, columns designed for fat people or about fat people and reinterpret them from a fat liberation lens. And then I do this other really fun podcast called, um, technically queer, which is four trans people with ADHD and other mental health, uh, challenges, trying to make a podcast and get it out on a regular basis. And to tell you how successful we are. We have four episodes out we’ve recorded another five that we have just forgotten to release. Christina: So there’s like your lost episodes. Bryan: Yeah, exactly. Like we’re gonna release them. We just keep forgetting to put them up and hit published. Jeff: You know, I, I actually can see how that would happen because there are times when I just enjoy the conversation and like, can forget that something’s gonna come of it. Bryan: Yeah, absolutely. And I don’t know which one of us is the most responsible. It really changes week to week. Except it’s never Alex Cox. I love Alex, but they’ll tell you, like, they’re not the one that’s gonna get the thing posted. Brett: Hi, Alex. Christina: Hi, Alex, we love you. When therapy becomes commodity Jeff: All right. So we have some topics that we’ve kind of previewed when we were all kind of talking before we started recording. And one we’ve been sort of kicking down the road and I’m, I’m actually really glad that it lands here. Um, a couple of episodes ago, before we started recording, I went on the Overtired Twitter and just said, does anybody have anything they wanna hear us talk about or follow up on? And there’s a podcast called pod therapy. And one of the hosts of pod therapy wrote in with this question, he said, what are your views on the appification of mental health? Is the examples like Headspace better help cerebral. We could probably add the sponsor, uh, that we brought on last week. Um, mind bloom and awkwardly would just, just add a sponsor into this conversation. Um, and, and he said, Brett: better, better help has also been a Jeff: that’s true. That’s Brett: gonna, we’re gonna speak honestly. Jeff: And he said, do you think the tech industry and venture capital can do this well? So that’s the question that we’re gonna like look at now, before we get really started. I wanna also just point out that Christina had circulated an article to all of us from the wall street journal. Um, Christina, why don’t you take a stab at summarizing that article? Christina: Yeah, so it’s, it’s a really good, uh, read it’s it’s, it’s a, it’s a long read, um, uh, but we’ll have a link to it in, in the show notes. Um, and it’s, it’s, um, one of the stories that it kind of centers on is, um, this guy, Harland band, who, was living in a sober house. He’d been diagnosed as a kid with ADHD, but, he’d had, you know, his struggles with, um, I guess substance abuse, um, but, using, done, which is one of the, uh, various services that advertises on, on TikTok and Instagram and, and YouTube and things like that. He was able to connect with the doctor and basically get, within about 10 minutes, you know, get a, uh, appointment with. Who was then able to prescribe from Adderall. And that, I think it was actually not even a doctor was a nurse practitioner, but someone who had the ability to, prescribe medication and that kind of set him off on, a relapse. And, uh, it was the, the entire, uh, story, I think it opens up this, this question of a couple of things, one, which is sort of the culpability of what these services have in terms of, you know, prescribing medication to people and trying to kind of balance, you know, on the one hand we talk about how there’s lack of access to a lot of people who have mental health problems and, and they don’t have access to doctors. And this was especially true during the pandemic. And I think we’ve all, uh, all of us on this pod we’ve benefited from, um, you know, like telehealth services, but kind of trying to, to balance that with okay, Do the people who are, are issuing these prescriptions, how much do they actually know about their patients and, and how much are they actually, how much due diligence are they doing? Because in this case, you know, this was somebody who was able to kind of answer the right question, say the right things. And in a, in 10 minutes, get a prescription, you know, for, for a, a schedule to narcotic, mailed to his house, uh, which then set him off on, um, a, uh, a relapse. Whereas. Not to say this couldn’t have happened in person, but in person there would maybe be other, uh, um, barriers to, to prevent that. And I think beyond that, it’s saying, you know, uh, one, one of the things the article goes into, and, and there are some other articles that the, the same reporter for the journal had written about is the, I think the pressure that the, um, either the doctors or nurse practitioners or whoever are working for these services have to turn over patients as quickly as possible. So it’s not just that you don’t get a lot of time with people it’s that they themselves are under pressure and are basically encouraged to kind of turn people over as quickly as possible, but also to prescribe as much medication as possible because you need to have higher satisfaction rates. And so what does that do? Um, you know, uh, ultimately to, to treating mental health and, and does this, you know, create more problems than, than it potentially. Jeff: Has anybody has, have any of you used any of these services? It’s kind of weird to have head. There, but I, I, I think it’s fine, but beyond Headspace, anything that would be actual one-on-one mental health treatment. Brett: I tried out better help. Um, I had a pretty good experience with better help. Uh, didn’t ultimately feel like I connected with my therapist there and let it go. But, um, it, I didn’t try again, like you have the option with better help to continue. Jeff: And how did that, how, what was that like, how did that kind of get started? What was it like to, to log on? Did it feel, um, like sort of a commodifying of mental health or did it Brett: no, it actually. Jeff: I just don’t click with this. Brett: It actually felt really good. And I say full disclosure, they were a sponsor of ours. Uh, they have been in the past. Um, I honestly don’t have anything bad to say about better help. They’re not prescribing medications. Um, I feel like they’re Christina: That’s a very Brett: from right. But, uh, it did. It felt like they, they connected me with someone that checked off all the boxes that I, I said, these are the things that are important to me and a therapist. They found someone, uh, that matched as best they could. Um, I guess I had requested someone who was, uh, well versed in ADHD. And when I talked to my therapist there, uh, she did not actually have any experience with ADHD. So I guess they kind of failed in that regard. Uh, but I did have the option to, to switch therapists and I just didn’t follow through on it. So I don’t know if it would’ve gotten. If I would’ve gotten better results, if I tried. Christina: Yeah. And I can just say, um, my mom, who is, who is a licensed, uh, you know, uh, therapist and counselor, she has been contacted, she’s contacted by them probably, you know, a couple times a month asking, you know, if she wants to work for better health. Um, and for her, you know, she’s retired. It probably, I’m not sure how much they pay per hour from what I’ve looked. It looks between probably like 35 and $45 an hour for her as a retired person. It might make sense if she were to work, you know, 20 hours a week or something, um, as just something to do. Right. Um, not, not as her primary income or anything else, but I do like one of my concerns with, with services, like better health, even though I, I agree with Brett, like I think that, you know, you can get good people out of it, uh, but that you can get, you know, maybe not good people too. It just kind of depends on, on who you’re doing. One of my concerns with better health, more than anything else is the fact that it’s like the amount of money that they are paying, that the counselors is, in my opinion, going to necessitate one of two things, either people who are, um, you might have people like my mom who are retired and are qualifi. And I’ve been doing this for a long time, but you might also have people who are fresh out of school and can’t get jobs other ways and might be doing this in addition to other things. And, you know, maybe don’t have the experience that you would want, especially since frankly, when you look at the price of the service, it’s, it can be less expensive than, you know, like weekly therapy without insurance, but it’s not cheap, right? Like Bryan: No at all. Christina: couple, it’s a couple hundred dollars a month, which again, you know, like my, my psychiatrist who does therapy with me, he does not take insurance. That’s always been his thing. He’s about $400 an hour. Um, but so, you know, I see him once a month, but if I saw more than that, obviously something like better health will be less expensive, but better health is still several hundred dollars a month. And, um, I think that unless you find somebody who you can really connect with, it’s kind of a crapshoot, at least that’s been what I’ve kind of picked up on from talking to people. Who’ve used it. Bryan: Yeah. I think one of the things that I, so I’ve used modern health, I mean, Christina and I we’ve talked about modern health before they do EAPs for a lot of companies and Christina: we, yeah, we have moderate. I haven’t used them, but I have access to them. Bryan: Yeah. And so I got an, I got a specific ADHD counselor through there, not for any med, like I was just looking at their website and they don’t do, they don’t prescribe, uh, restricted, uh, like scheduled medication. They don’t do that because, uh, probably is my guess of this exact thing. But, um, you know, my experience was also like the ADHD therapist I got was like fine, but I definitely like stayed with her longer for that specific thing, because it was free, you know, like I got so many sessions involved or included. Um, but I also wanna say that I think one of the problems with therapy in general, as I know you just went through, like Brett is therapy is a crap shoot, finding the right therapist, period is a crap shoot. And one of the things that I actually think. Is a bit frustrating to me with better help. And some of these other services is the reason they exist is because of how expensive it is to get treatment period. Especially if you’re UN specifically if you’re uninsured. Christina: right, right. No, you’re exactly Bryan: thinking I can, yeah, I can go to done and I can get an ADHD prescription really easily. And we can all probably talk to how hard it can be to get a diagnosis for things and how much money you can spend. Um, you know, that’s the reason these things exist. Um, at least partially, Jeff: Or how easy to get the wrong diagnosis. Bryan: oh yeah. Christina: No, but I think you’re right. I mean, I think this is what one of the, the struggles is, is that this is obviously an area where I think that you can disrupt it with technology. Like I, I’m not willing to say that. I don’t think that there’s any role for VC in this, because I do think that technology can disrupt healthcare. I think that I, I, I think you can disrupt, uh, this field. I think it is open to that. And, and Brian and I, we we’ve discussed some of the advancements that have happened even kind of in the app space around insurance, which I think has been really positive. I think that the disconnect is how do you make sure that you’re not disrupting it in a way that could be harmful actively to, to the people where, where, you know, you go into typical like VC mode where you’re thinking I’m just gonna go for the Moom and we need to do pure growth. And you’re not taking into consideration that this is still people’s. Brett: Yeah, the, the main, the main problem is the same problem. Is you see throughout the healthcare industry is profit motive. Um, it’s right. It’s right for disruption. But when that disruption comes at the price where, where everything has to make a profit, uh, when you turn mental health into a commodity, uh, which is exactly what will happen with, with VC, uh, you turn it into a commodity. You’re not gonna get the best for the patient. You’re gonna get the best for the investor. Jeff: Yeah. And it’s like the nurse, the nurse practitioner in that wall street journal story. It’s super interesting because you know, this, this guy having gotten the Adderall prescription, went down a dark road into old addictions. And this person when interviewed by the wall street journal reporter, not surprisingly has no memory of him, right. Like, because she was in a machine and, and processing people. Brett: you had a 30 minute appointment to do all this. Jeff: Exactly. And, and I thought that, that, that was one of those times actually, when it’s very powerful to have gone to this person. Cause I wouldn’t honestly reading the article. I’m thinking I don’t have anything to learn from this person about this guy. They’re not gonna remember. Right. But that’s the point and that’s the problem that can exist with, like you said, uh, Christina, the pure profit approach. Christina: And, and, and, and to be clear though, that could also be the case if, if this was like a regular doctor, right? Like, like my, my mom, um, she was recently went through some heinous stuff with, with, um, her like her primary care doctor and, and with actually with a cardiologist. And we could talk about the, the ridiculous amount of, um, like ageism that exists in medicine, but that’s a whole separate topic, but, you know, these are these massive healthcare centers that are, you know, like huge buildings that are, that are not HMOs, but are, you know, just the, these huge practices that these corporations own, where doctors see, you know, hundreds of patients and, and you don’t know, like how much are they going to remember, you know, one person to the next, other than their charts, right? Because it’s, it’s all, it does become a, an assembly line and becomes a. Bryan: Yeah. And I’m, you know, I’m just not sure. Um, if there, there’s also something about the virtual aspect, if you’re not, if all you’re doing is virtual stuff, right. If all you’re ever doing is virtual, if that’s the way you enter as a practitioner, particularly, I think there can be an issue with seeing the person as quite the same as you would see somebody that you met in person, just in terms of like the way we treat people from a humanity perspective. We know for a fact that like, Computers, all of this technology is like a substitute, but it’s not a perfect one for being in person with people, for connecting with people, for taking the time, the minute the person is off the screen, you know, in a, in a regular session, like you’re still in your office, you know that you have another person coming in. There’s time set aside for you to take notes. You know, all of those things are allowed because you’re in a physical space, which may not be the case. If you are in a virtual space, the Mach again, the program might just pop somebody else up on your screen. Jeff: right. Bryan: know, how much is it like a call center? Jeff: Yeah. Here’s a whole nother human. On the other hand, like I, I have friends who are therapists, who, um, who really believed during the pandemic, if there were patients that came to them because they wouldn’t have to come in person. Bryan: Oh yeah. Christina: I think that’s the challenge, right? Is, is that these things, if you were to do it the right way without that profit motive, which I think you’re exactly right, right. Like that’s the problem with this. If you were able to do, to take on some of this disruption, without it being about how can we exact as much profit out of this as possible, then I think that some of this tech could be really good and could lead to better care, but that’s not how we think about the system in this country. Like we, we think about it literally as how much money can we extract and, and how much like, like what’s, what’s our best option. And the problem with that, I think, especially when you start talking about like, when you’re now talking about schedule two drugs and, and mailing them to people after a 10 minute meeting, you know, O over a zoom call, That’s a problem because, you know, look, this guy who this story’s about, he was not upfront with a therapist or with a doctor, nurse practitioner or whatever he was not upfront did not share his history. Um, and there’s no telling that he would’ve been honest in person. Right. He might have been able to get drugs in person as well, but I also have to think that in person, when you’re not on kind of a 10 minute thing, somebody might have asked some questions, like, have you had, do you have any history of substance abuse? Do you have, you know, what was your past experience with these things? And that might have led to a, a slightly different, um, you know, outcome. I, you know, there, there’s no telling if it would’ve or would not have, but it definitely does. I, I definitely have to say as someone who is in favor of more people having access to medication, I’m equally uncomfortable with people having. Unfettered access in some ways to these types of drugs when there’s not a lot of due diligence happening on, on behalf of, of the people who are prescribing them. Like that, that to me, I think is really scary because these are things that, that could fuck people up in really serious ways. Bryan: Well, and the particular thing that I think we have to look at with done is done is basically to be very clear, they markets themselves, as you can get your ADHD meds in 30 minutes, right? This is not some normal run of the mill psychiatrist or therapist. Who’s there to give you therapy. They’re literally there to write you a prescription. That’s why they exist, you know? And that’s like, that’s the purpose of the company, which again, like one of the things that I think about in all of this is how, in some ways it is the entire insurance, like. The whole medical system in the United States sets us up for this because why do therapists charge so much money? Uh, because insurance, um, because insurance often will screw a therapist in terms of the money that they get. Like they can’t, and it’ll take them forever to get money back, you know, in reimbursements and everything. Uh, it’s almost impossible for any individual therapists to go out on their own and take insurance because of the amount of paperwork it requires in all of this, you know? And so we put all of these barriers into allowing cuz it’s not just about profit. It’s about sort of like. Astronomical profit. Right? We want people to be able to live, right. We want therapists to be able to provide services and give good money and like, and get, uh, have a decent living in exchange. But they can’t do that with the way the system is set up right now without like charging exorbitant amounts of money. That’s a lot of people can’t afford. Um, or, and then, so then you get on the other side of this, a thing like done, which charges you very little money and gives you a prescription really quick, because that’s the way that’s like, there’s those two options for people. And one for people is inaccessible. Jeff: And as we’ve talked about so much on this podcast and privately with friends, like the thing I thought about, you know, putting aside some of the particulars of the, the man’s story and the wall street journal story, like just starting ADHD meds, starting Adderall, there are so many questions. There’s so many questions you have about why does my body feel like this? Is it the drug? Or is it the drug’s interaction with something? Is it neither? Am I just nervous? Am I stressed? Because I’m putting this thing in my body. Right? That’s if you’ve never had experience with such a thing, right? Like even if you’ve had experience, sometimes you can get a higher, you know, dosage than you probably should get just. As people feel like, oh, you you’ve done this before. Right. And so for me, like I’ve found with, especially with Vivance, which is the only ADHD med I’ve taken, um, I’ve had such a road with that particular drug that the idea of just having a quick, Hey, you know, yeah, you can get this and here’s how, and here’s your meds and you’re often running and, you know, no real follow up, uh, no promise of follow up that really scares me cuz of what it can do to your body and to your mind. Um, especially if you’re not used to sort of paying attention to your body and your mind as it sort of changes day to day, Christina: Yeah, 100%. And I think that Brian made a really great point. Is that done, um, you know, would advertise itself specifically as this is the easy way to get your, your, your ADHD meds in 30 minutes, which attracts a very different audience type than somebody who’s looking to solve a problem. I mean, what you’re doing there and just be explicit about it. You’re going after college kids and you’re going after people who are looking to abuse drugs and get it, get it cheaply and get it without, without having to go through barriers. That’s what you’re doing. Bryan: Or people who are already so fed up with the system, right. Christina: I mean, potentially. Yeah, potentially. Yeah. I’m just saying, I think that the way they advertise it, not to say other people couldn’t use it, but the way they advertise it is very clearly for drug seekers. Brett: So there was like a two year period of my life where, um, I like, I was cut off from my ADHD meds by a system that. Just like wrote me off because I had drug abuse in my history and there was like no chance I would ever get, uh, ADHD meds again. Um, and like a service, like dun could’ve saved. Like, I mean, my life fell apart. Uh, I I’m, I got divorced. I lost, or I gave up my job. Uh, and I couldn’t find new work. Like I went broke, um, like things did not go well. And, and, and, and I started abusing alcohol again, uh, because one of the things that being treated for ADHD is actually good for addicts. Uh, if your ADHD is treated, you are far less impulsive in your use of drugs. So the idea that an addict should never get an ADHD medication, uh, is, is errant. Um, but like a service like done could have saved me from a lot of heart. Christina: 100. Brett: But you’re right. Like, what’s the difference between me and a college kid who wants Adderall to take their finals? You know, like no, no one could determine that in a 30 minute or less conversation over, over the phone. Bryan: Yeah. That’s the thing. Yeah, Christina: I was gonna say, I think that’s the problem, right? Like I, Bryan: it flattens you, it flattens them. Christina: exactly, and, and to the, to this point, because now I think that the, the pharmacies see it as a liability, um, uh, Walmart and CVS were two of the, the biggest pharmacy changed in the us will not fill prescriptions from done. And, and it has to be because of this sort of thing. And that’s unfortunate because again, like, I do feel like to your point, like Brett, like you’re not the only one who could have been saved and had really good benefits from this. Like, I, I was reading about the service and at first I was really sympathetic to the service because I was like, I think that what, what they’re trying to solve is an important thing. And then though I think about it though, and I’m like, God, but. This is still some serious stuff. Like there has to be a checks and balances here. And I guess the more I was kind of reading, especially about done with their CEO and whatnot, the fact that a big red flag for me is zero background in, in healthcare or, or medicine, um, or, or, or, you know, bioengineering, anything like that, right. Is, is to be like, which I’m sorry. I think does a little bit preclude you from starting a startup like this, right? Like at least have a co-founder who’s a doctor. Right. But if you don’t have anybody on your founding team who comes from this world and you just see this as an area to, you know, create a middle man opportunity for yourself and speed things up and be efficient. I don’t have a lot of trust that you’re going to do things the right way. And, and in that case, you could potentially my big fear with a lot of this is that this ends up because when people have been overprescribed and have been overdiagnosed in my opinion, and I think that that leads to people, not taking people who have the actual. Diagnoses and need help. Seriously. I, I genuinely believe that. And I think that it, it leads to this thing where, uh, it, there could be, uh, like a pendulum swing where it would be very difficult for all of us, like on, on this and many people who listen to this podcast to actually get their medications. And that, that, that’s a thing that scares me because of, of how these services work and, and just kind of this culture of, yeah, we’ll give anybody a diagnosis if you happen to be of a certain class and happen to have access to certain things and, and, and say the right, you know, phrase, then we’re gonna give you your Adderall. Like, I don’t wanna not be able to get my dexo drain because you know, the, the Congress decides that they need to have more stringent guidelines, you know, because, because of this sort of thing, that that’s, I have to be completely like selfish and say, that’s one of my fear. Brett: Well sure. That’s that’s every, every, everyone who is successfully treated for ADHD, that’s a constant fear we have to live with Bryan: Yeah. I mean, yeah. It’s, I mean, they have this new advisor, uh, yeah. They just hired a new advisor probably after all of this stuff happening is why they did this. Um, Steven Stahl. Who’s actually a guy I’ve read about before, who has a lot of experience treating HD ADHD, but like fundamentally 30 minutes and a one minute assessment is not enough. Like they promote a one minute assessment. There’s a reason why the ADHD assessments take a while. Like there’s so many things Brett: Can’t assess something in one minute. Jeff: it’s the ADHD assessment for ADHD. Christina: really Brett: Right. Bryan: a joke or my boyfriend told me was if you wanna test somebody for ADHD, just have them pack a suitcase for a trip. Christina: Yeah. a good one actually. Brendon Fraser in a fat suit Jeff: uh, we actually have like a couple of pop culture topics. And I’m wondering how you feel about transitioning. Brett: do. Bryan: Yeah. Pop Jeff: All right. Well it’s I was thinking it, Brian came in saying it Brendan Frazier in a fat suit. Everybody. Do you wanna do the summary first, Brian? Bryan: Sure. So. Honestly who doesn’t love Brendan Fraser, Brendan Fraser in the mummy, Brendan Fraser in all sorts of great movies as a kid, you know, George of the jungle, like we loved Brendan Fraser in the nineties and the two thousands then Brendan Fraser disappeared. And in 2018 he came back and, you know, there was an article in GQ where he talked about, um, being blacklisted by the film industry, after speaking out about being sexually assaulted, um, you know, he has started to see, you know, more, more career, more, uh, more roles and things. And so this September, there was a big movie that was, you know, high profile called the whale, which is also a play that was, um, by Darren Aoki. Um, It’s like it’s Oscar bat, but it’s Oscar bat in which Brendan Fraser wears a fat suit. I should also note that most of us who remember Brendan Fraser, remember him as a thin, very muscular hot person. Typically Haun person, Brett: And oh man. That’s how I remember bringing Bryan: Brendan Fraser himself is fat now. And so I think that’s important to understand as well, a little bit about this movie, just a quick background. This is a movie about a man who, um, is struggling. It’s about a 600 pound gay man struggling to connect with is estranged daughter before his compulsive binge eating kills him. Um, you know, and it got him a six minute standing ovation at the Venice film festival and yeah, I mean, so this Christina: based on, based on a, Bryan: Based on a play. Christina: play. Yeah. Bryan: A pretty successful play. And like for me straight up, I’ll start the story. I don’t think, I don’t think people should be wearing fat suits. I don’t think that I don’t think that people’s bodies are costumes to put on and take off personally. Um, uh, I have a, I have a personal problem with this. I think this movie also is sympathy porn for fat people for like thin people to be like, oh, here’s a reason for me to care about a really fat person. When oftentimes what we do is we ridicule them in shows like my 600 pound life and all of those sorts of things, instead of seeing them as whole people. Um, I’m also like personally, like really struggling with the fact that Brendan Frazier as a fat person who I hope will have started to realize what it is like to live in a fat body will then choose to put a fat suit on, on top of. But I also recognize the flip side of this is that I want to think about the fact that here is Brendan Frazier. Who’s been blacklisted from the film industry for a very long time, finally getting opportunities. Um, and they come to him with this, you know, and here’s an opportunity for him to do something in a, in a movie that, you know, to me is a lot like movies about drug addicts, right. Where we’re trying to like, you know, empathize with the drug addicts. So we tell a story of a drug addict who like goes through this inspiring thing and I just really struggle with it because, um, why don’t we care about drug addicts normally, right. Why do we have to tell inspiring stories about them? Jeff: For me, it really fit in not directly, but it fit in with this tradition of often, um, very sort of trim Hollywood, male actors gaining 60 to 80 pounds for a role, I think like Robert de Niro and raging bull and like a million of those examples. Right. And like, they are praised. Yes, they are praised and placed in a very special category almost as if look what you did to your beautiful self, you made yourself this thing, just so you could act for us, you know, and it’s a very, and you’re doing violence to your body, anyhow, cuz you’re doing you’re gaining and then losing it really fast, right? Bryan: it’s really bad for your body. It’s really bad. Brett: This episode brought to you by fatness. Bryan: it’s awesome. It’s just like thinness. They’re all part of the natural human spectrum. Christina: Yeah. I mean, I struggle with this because on the one hand, I do think again, to your point, like we have this history for whether it’s a good, or it’s a bad thing. It is a history of, of people, you know, transforming their bodies for roles and, um, people, you know, um, being moved by it and, and I’ve definitely been moved by those performances, like by Christian BA’s performances, by, uh, Robert Janero and raging bull by, um, you know, uh, uh, the elephant man and, um, um, uh, Daniel de Lewis in my left foot. Like these are really fantastic performances that I, I don’t, uh, look at them as, as being like negative, um, uh, in most cases or, or like, uh, Pejoratives in certain ways. Um, ones that I find a little ridiculous, although not discounting, what, what she, the work she went into it, but like, you know, um, the fact that like Renee Zeiger, you know, the weight she gained for, um, Bridget Jones, I think that the people like Laing, that was ridiculous because she became like the, the sides of like a normal person, but I’m not going to discount ha having been someone who is very thin and then gained weight, I’m not going to discount. Uh, and then lost it again. I’m not going to discount like the actual toll and what it does to your body when your body changes that way. Like, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna discount that, but I feel, I I’m, I’m, I’m sort of conflicted because on the one hand I’m I’m with you, I’m like, I, I don’t think that we should, you know, be using like, uh, fat suits and. Although there’s a part of that says, okay, but what’s different about one prosthetic versus another, right. We use prosthetics in so many other ways. So are we going to say that one type of prosthetic is allowed on another isn’t um, and if you wanna have a conversation about the nuances that I’m happy to, but, but I think that’s important thing to put out. But the other thing though, is that I do fear and, and this is I’m sorry, but I’m just gonna be honest here. If we were to make a rule that says that people can’t use prosthetics or fat suits, then I do think that you would not see any stories that people of size told not because, because a, the number of actors who would be available to do it, but B like. This film is getting attention because it’s Darren Aronofski and it’s Brenna Fraser. If they actually cast an actual 600 pound actor in this, no one would care and it wouldn’t get funding and it’s it’s show business, right? Like, like people were really upset. Again, Renee Zevier with the thing about Pam, I understand that. Here’s the thing. If the Oscar winner is not attached to that project, it doesn’t get made. So sometimes I think you have to like opening up to, to, to the rest of you, but like have to say like, do you, do we want stories told or do we not? Cuz sometimes I think it really does come down to that. Jeff: What about Coda? I feel like Coda is a, is a film that kind of makes the, the sort of other. Christina: Yeah. But that’s a small film, right? Like you can do that for sure. I’m just saying like, you’re not going to get like Coda, didn’t go to the Venice film festival, right? Like it was, it was purchased at Sundance by apple TV. And they, you know, a really good Oscar campaign, but also in fairness here coulda had the attachment of an, of an academy award winner, right. That had had Marley Matlin. If you didn’t have her attached to it, who is unfortunately the on she’s been the face of, of, of deaf of people in acting for her entire career. Right. And because she won an Oscar when she was, you know, 21 or whatever, like she’s been the one person there, if she was not attached to that film, that film doesn’t even get its, its small amount of funding. Right. Let alone getting picked up. So like it’s a pipeline problem. I hate to be like that, you know, but that is part of it. But it just, I, I wonder if like if we can even open with a pipeline more, if you don’t have any of these roles done. Like, like if, if it’s, if it’s, so if people are so like at the point where they, they don’t even feel like they can tell any stories like about drug addicts or about people of size. Or about, you know, deaf people, like what, what, what do you do? Like I do think I do agree. In most cases you should have the people who are those things playing those roles. But I also understand that, like, it, it’s a it’s show business and it’s gonna be about who you can, you know, attach to it, to actually get funding, you know? And, and if it’s a, if it’s a matter of the film of the story, getting told and not getting told I’m, I’m a little more conflicted there. Bryan: I don’t think this story needed to be told. Christina: And that’s Bryan: I think just like, yeah, I think, yeah, I think that’s the problem for me. Um, I don’t know why we need a, like we don’t, I guess, and I don’t know why we need stories about a 600 pound man. Who’s apparently decided he’s going to die because of a compulsive eating disorder. Um, like I’m not sure that that’s the story that needed to be told. Um, I also think, yeah, absolutely. I also think you could have told it with like a 400 pound person or a 300 pound person, which like Brendan Frazier already was we already, I think like it, what’s weird about it for me is like the. Excessive, like, let me just say this. People think that 300 pound people are gonna die already. People think all like so many, like the stereotype is the fat people. You’re just, we’re all gonna drop dead of heart attacks. And so it seems like it really does seem like they used the fatness as an opportunity to make it a bigger deal than it was. And you could have told the story otherwise, Brett: Do you feel like you might have to amplify it though for, for people to sympathize Bryan: well, right. Brett: for the average person Bryan: but that’s the problem, right? Like, yeah. Now, now we’re saying that we, you, we don’t care about fat people unless they’re 600 pounds. And then we care about them in a really weird way. know, which is that we only care about them if they lose weight or they’re going to die, not if they’re just like normally living people. Um, and I think the last thing was you talk about prosthetics, Christina. I would just say, I think, as you said, the nuances here, I think the biggest one is like some prosthetics change the human body in a way to align with stereotypes and those, you know, like, I don’t just as like mainly it’s like, I don’t think, I don’t think men should play women. Either, you know, like, I don’t think that, you know, like when, when Jared Leto played a trans woman, like, I think it was Jared Leto. Like, no, not like cast a trans woman. And part of the reason why they’re not casting these people is because we’re not in the industry. And the reason we’re not in the industry is because they decided they’d rather cast thin people and have them wear fat suits or prosthetics. So I think the question is, you know, we have to, like, there are probably great actors out there who are fat and they just don’t know Christina: Sure. No, and I don’t disagree with that at all. And, and, and look, it’s a chicken and an egg thing. You’re, you’re not wrong. I’m just saying like, we have to accept the industry reality, which is for instance, with, with JTO right. That film does not get made unless it is starring Matthew McConaughey and Jared Leto, that film does not get made. And so, like, that’s just a fact. And, and so, you know, especially then now you might have a better chance you would still need to have Matthew McConaughy. You would never be able to, to make that film without it. Um, you know, I, I wasn’t in favor of the Scarlet Johansen, you know, film where she was going to be playing a transman. However, that film fell apart after she left the project, they could not get funding. So it, it does like people are retroactively angry at, at like Hillary Swank being in, in boys don’t cry, which I think is bullshit because I think in that time, That, that was the, she was perfect casting and, and that was an indie film made with, with very little money. And I think it fit the, the, the nuance of that story incredibly well. So I actually have a big problem with people retroactively being angry with that, but I can understand not wanting to, to CA like wanting to cast trans people over S I get that. I just also like, think that we have to acknowledge, this is a, this is a business, fundamentally, this is a business. And, you know, for a lot of people, the question would then become like, do we like, do we tell the stories or not? I think that there’s a valid comment to say, does this story, this play need to be told, does this need to be a film? And I, I get that, but I, I think that the more broadly you have to, like, for instance, Shirley’s th who absolutely deserved her Oscar for monster, and it’s still, to me, one of the, like, most amazing performances ever, she gained weight, they modified her face. She was in makeup for hours and hours a day. They could have cast an ugly person, right. I don’t think that you can make the argument, at least to me, cuz cuz like pretty privilege is, is, is a very real thing. And, and obviously most people who are on screen are going to have pretty privilege, but like, I, I, I, I, and I know this, isn’t what you’re saying. I’m just saying people could take this to, to its other place where they’re like, well, we, we couldn’t have cast Charlie’s Thoran in that role because we should have cast, you know, someone who actually, you know, uh, didn’t need to modify their body that way. And, and, and I think that there are nuances to, to be clear. I know you’re not saying that. I just think that sometimes the conversation becomes flat to the point where I have a hard time sometimes engaging with it because it’s like a it’s art and, and you know, a lot of people, their process is modification, but B. This is, this is a, this is a business and it’s about who you can market to and, and who you can, you know, what name you can attach so that you can get people willing to put millions and millions of dollars on the line. Cuz it, these projects, it’s not like it’s, you know, a small amount of money. It means you’re talking about, you know, like hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars. And, and you know, that’s, that’s gonna be difficult to, to do for somebody who doesn’t have a, a reputation or a name. Bryan: Yeah, I think the question, I mean, which, which goes back, I mean, what we’re pointing at at the end of the day here is that there are large systemic problems that, that cause us to be in the reality that, that we are here. I think the question is when do you decide to start focusing on the systemic problem versus worrying about or versus saying, oh, well we can’t make this now. And maybe that’s okay if we can’t make this now maybe we have to wait until we have the better people to do it, you know? And, but once again, it goes back to what did we talking about earlier profit, right? Like we wanna make this movie now because we wanna tell this story now, because we think it’s gonna be a hit, which is both, it’s a good story maybe, and it will make money, you know, and it’s. Christina: Although, although, I mean, the only thing I’ll say is like, let’s not ever pretend like the film industry. I mean, the one thing I will say like about it, it’s always been upfront that it’s a business, right? Like, like if you’re an artist and you’re somebody who can find somebody to fund you and you wanna not be seen, that’s fine. And you can get grants and what on you can do your work that way. But like, it, it it’s the whole point is to have people see your work and for it to make money and, and to do that. So I think that, unfortunately just there’s, there’s always going to be a push pull about that for certain things. But I do think you’re exactly right. Like we have to maybe have the conversation is not okay to tell these stories. I guess the only thing I would say is if we say that, then I think maybe we have to like, let people know these are the stories you’re missing out on. If that makes any sense. We’re not telling these stories, not because we don’t want to, but because we don’t have a way to do it that fits in with this system. And maybe that’s the only way you can get the system to, to, to adapt. But you have to be willing to let the stories not be told. And at the same time, not, you know, like be very angry when the stories aren’t told, like you’ve gotta almost like, Bryan: Oh, agreed. Christina: you know, Bryan: Yeah. Brett: If I can put a positive spin on trans people in, uh, television and movies, you guys watched the umbrella club. Bryan: Umbrella academy. Jeff: No, Brett: Umbrella academy. Sorry. Yeah. Umbrella academy. They actually wrote in Elliot page’s transition into the script and changed the, the credit sequence after the, after the character, just after the character, on the, on the TV series. Transitioned. Bryan: Yeah. And trans people in film, film, and TV are a great example of where we’ve started to see things change, you know, and, and that is both because of pressure that’s been put on like social pressure and more trans people have felt able to be in the industry to come as themselves to the industry. And like, and Elliot is a great example. I mean, Elliot is probably the first major movie star to transition publicly and to go well. Yeah. You know, we’re not there yet with fat people. Jeff: Well, no, I’m in a transition. That’s. On, um, I’m gonna transition right now. Brett: on Bryan: Oh, wow. Congratulations. Jeff: unless if there’s anything anyone wants to say wrapping that up, I wanna transition into pop culture topic. Number two, Brett: I just wanna point out we skipped the mental health corner and that’s part of why Brian is here. Jeff: do we have sponsors? Brett: No, actually we don’t, this, this, this episode is brought to you by whoever you want it to be brought to you by. Mental health corner Jeff: Do you wanna just do a, like a, a late check-in and I, I mean, and I know, you know this Brian, but there are no rules. It doesn’t have to be long or short or any kind of depth or, or anything. It’s just what you’re feeling like. You want to check in with. Bryan: Oh yeah. I mean, I’m happy to kick it off. I’ll just say, um, so. I a line up to being fat, right? Like this is actually, it ties in really well. So I recently got a new doctor and I got this new doctor because my previous doctor, when I told him that I didn’t wanna talk about weight loss said to me, well, then I won’t be your doctor anymore. Christina: Oh, fuck Bryan: Um, yeah, absolutely. It was, uh, luckily, um, the, I, I complained the medical director contacted me and she turned out to be a health at every size certified practitioner. So I’m now seeing her. And I just had my first appointment with her, um, health at every size is a framework that was started really to begin the conversation around the fact that like, Being fat is not fundamentally unhealthy. There are. Um, and there’s a longer conversation to say we should, we value people based on their health, which I would say no, but, um, this was the first step of like the, the past the fat liberation, which is like, um, you know, studies show that like being fat does not automat there’s no, I’m gonna say this. Nobody has yet proven causation for being fat, making you unhealthy. They have shown correlation, but not causation. And so many people forget that that’s a really important thing in science. Um, but anyway, so I went to this doctor, um, I’ve had some concerns recently about my, uh, my blood pressure. Um, I’ve been on Adderall, I’m on blood pressure pills. Um, but. I had a period where like, I was just like, my heart was beating a lot faster when doing a lot less than I thought it would need to. Um, and if it’s kind of gone away, but I was still kind of nervous about it. And so I see this new doctor, you know, um, she was really great. Like she didn’t, she said, if you wanna weigh yourself, you’re welcome to there’s no requirement. That was really cool. The first time I’ve ever had that experience, my blood pressure was fabulous. Also a wonderful thing. So, you know, great appointment and everything. But then the day after I get my labs back and there are some things that are high and this is the first time I’ve ever had labs that showed abnormalities. Um, and so my doctor was very nice. You, you all may know these days, doctors will share things at the same. Like you get the lab result at the same time your doctor does this part. Right. And so I was freaking out y’all. I was freaking out about what these numbers meant. Um, Turns out. I, so I had to follow up with my doctor today, but my doctor was like, don’t freak out. We’ll meet. I probably have hyperthyroidism. Christina: Okay. Bryan: Um, which turns out is not hard to treat Christina: Nope. You take a. Bryan: and yeah, like I found that out from a lot of people, but I was in a rollercoaster this weekend. Like Friday, I was ready to believe that I was gonna die. You know, um, I have really bad illness. Anxiety is like one of my types of anxiety that I have. Um, but you know, had a lot of friends like step up and share with me their experiences with their thyroids and everything. And help me understand that it wasn’t like a, like, you know, an end of the world thing. And, and also that it was probably, um, You know, unrelated again, to being fat. I had a, I think we may have talked about this before, but I had a friend in last December pass away, big sort of like iconic person in the fat liberation movement. I was working with her on the fat studies conference that happens every year or every two years. Really. We do it and she passed away suddenly. Um, her name was cat PAE. She’s really like one of the founders of the fat studies movement from an academic perspective. And she passed away suddenly. And you know, one, when that happens to somebody who is fat, you worry, you worry a lot. And I had been worrying until I went and saw my doctor, you know, so I was like this rollercoaster of wow, clean bill of health. Oh, wow. Maybe not there’s something going on. But then I met with my doctor today and she’s like, all of these labs, like, it’s, we just wanna figure out what’s going on with this thyroid. And it’s not super urgent. You know, all of those things are really good to hear, but it has been a Rocky weekend. Like. Like big time. My mental health was like sort of up and down and all over the Brett: Yeah. Jeff: Yeah. Bryan: otherwise, you know, I’m doing better now, so that’s good. Christina: That is really good. I’m, I’m glad, I’m glad that you are like, feeling calmer about that. And, and, and I hope that if I say this, this, this doesn’t like come across the wrong way, but. If, if this is something with your thyroid, you might find that your weight might change, like naturally because of that, which, which could, you know, lead to maybe like other, you know what I mean? Like, I’m not trying to say like, oh, maybe this will help you like lose weight. Cause that’s not what I’m trying to say, but like, I, I I’ve, I’ve had thyroid problems and, and it has an absolute effect on, on, on, on your weight, um, which, which, you know, so I’m, I’m glad that they’re, they’re looking into this and getting this checked out. Bryan: Yeah, it’s a very interesting thing to consider inside of fat liberation. I have already begun, like there was a period where I lost some weight cuz I was just exercising more. And like I had to start to think about how I feel about felt about losing weight in a different way, which is really interesting. Um, you know yeah, Brett: I have that thing where my heart beats loud and fast when I’m not doing anything and it scares the shit out me. I’ve gone to the emergency room before, uh, only to have them run hours of tests on me to say, you’re fine, everything’s fine. Maybe you’re constipated or something who knows. And it’s, it’s, it’s very disconcerting though. When you can hear your heart throbbing in your ears and you can’t fall asleep, you know, it’s awful. Yeah, Bryan: terrifying. Brett: yeah, yeah. I’ll go next. Uh, pretty, pretty good actually, um, sleeping too much. Uh, I think like I’m hitting that like post, uh, post mania, depression, but I’m not like I’m not down. Um, I’m doing I’m I’m, I’m, I’m being very social and, um, I’m not, I’m not scared that you guys all hate me right now. Jeff: Uh, Brett: sure I’m pretty sure we’re all cool. I feel like we’re all cool. Um, and, and, and I’m, I can, I could drop and take a nap time of the day right now, which is weird for me, but, uh, but other than that, uh, just kinda stable. I have an appointment with my therapist. My third appointment with my therapist is tomorrow. Um, looking forward to, uh, seeing him when I am not manic. Jeff: Is that in person or Brett: think it’s in person. I can’t remember what we scheduled. I have to check the calendar. Um, if it’s not in person, then the next one will be in person next week. Um, I will, I will be, I will be trying both versions, both flavors of this therapist to see what I actually like better. Um, but last time we talked, I was still manic and the conversation was pretty much entirely about mania and I have so many other things I wanna get into. So I’m kind of looking forward to that. Uh, we’ll see what happens. Jeff: That’s great. Bryan: That’s really awesome. I totally feel you on the, oh my gosh, everybody hates me thing just random, random days. I’ll get it for different people. Brett: real. Jeff: Yep. I had to ask, we had a, we had really good friends over like the kinds of friends that I’m super comfortable with and they get me, they know me, uh, and we had about, it was two couples over for dinner and I was just on like, super, super on the whole time, which I get when I really like the people that I’m with, but I sort of lose myself a little bit and I can’t really tell how on I was and I spend the next two days. Yeah. I spend the next two days just being like, oh my God, was that a disaster? Like people seem to be enjoying my company. Brett: We’ve had episodes where I feel like I was really gone and then we get done and I’m like, oh my God, was I the asshole? Bryan: no, the answer is Christina and I are always the assholes and it’s totally Christina: say I’m always the asshole. I think. Thank you, Brian. I, I, I, I was, I was gonna, I would’ve added that, but yeah. Bryan: Listen, we both have very strong contrarian streaks, Christina. Christina: We do, which is why I appreciate you so much because I, I, I like like being able to like, have more like, robust discussions about things. Bryan: Yeah. Uh, how are you, Jeff or Christina? Yeah. Jeff: I can go. You want me to go Christina? Okay. Um, I am, uh, you know, I was reading a book this morning called the face a time code and it’s, um, it’s by this, um, Japanese American writer who actually, I had never encountered before Ruth Ozeki or Ozeki, um, it’s actually a pen name. Um, but this is, um, what she did for this book was she, she took inspiration from a, a Harvard art professor who’s, uh, who. Whose article or like the transcript of her talk, I will put into the show notes. It’s incredible. This is an art, um, history teacher who has her students each year, pick a painting and go sit in front of that painting for three hours, knowing that that’s insane. Like, you know, she’s not just like, you’ll find your space, right? She’s like, that is uncomfortably long. And maybe even physically uncomfortably wrong, Bryan: fall. Jeff: like you can get up, you can stand whatever. And the idea being that like, you know, by the end journal the whole time, just like the things you, you know, start to see, and she had this great. Thing about how, you know, just seeing is not seeing right. Not having access to something is not the same as seeing it. Right. And so anyhow, this, this woman, um, who wrote this book, the face very short book, wanted to do this, where she put a mirror up and she was gonna stare at her own fucking face for three hours. And the book is half time coded journal and half more considered memoir. And she goes through all the stuff you can just imagine going through over that, you, the things you hate about your face, the things you are curious about in your face, the things that used to bother you, but don’t anymore things that used to be true, but aren’t true. And the way that she, um, The way that she wrote this thing was just incredible and, and beautiful. And I, and what happened to me? I read it this morning and I actually, so my, the background of this is this is the first day that my wife and my kids are all back at school. My wife works at the university, so I’m home alone and I can just have a nice slow morning. And so I’m just like laying on the couch, reading this very slow book about a very slow thing, looking at your face for three hours. Right. And I felt so good. Just be reading and not be reading exactly like story or anything. You know how sometimes like you can reading is great, but it can kind of activate parts of you, either trauma or too much joy or whatever. Right. Like it can bring you into places that you don’t mean to be. And this just kind of like hovered with me in a way that was just really. Really powerful, but she, she opens up by asking this question or writing this question. That’s, it’s, it’s a Buddhist coin, which is kind of like a, a thought puzzle. They’re like these single questions that, um, that you ask yourself and they’re meant to how she put it is they’re meant for you to like break your brain over them basically. Right. And the question that she writes is what did your face look like before your parents were born? And I loved that. So goddamn much in part, because I’m in this phase of therapy, which is also known as therapy, um, Where parent stuff is like super present. And I see myself through the lens, uh, of the son of these two people. Right. And, and more than I would like to what doesn’t say anything, that’s, that’s a neutral statement more than I would like to. Right. I would like to see myself or, or feel myself as being something more sort of detached and individual. And there was something about this question. What did your face look like before your parents were born? That like took me to that place for just a second. I just felt like a different kind of being or a different kind of presence. So, no, I’m not high, even though my co-op now sells tht THC gummies because the Minnesota state legislature made a mistake and accidentally legalized them. That’s a whole nother topic. Christina: Oh my God. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So, so, so, so gummies are legal, but, but not anything Brett: Yeah, they act, they accidentally legalize small amounts of, of edibles. Jeff: because the Republican on the committee. Read it just a little wrong and, and so was like, yeah. Okay. That’s fine. And then all of a sudden, I was like, you just legalized gummies. Thank you. Christina: like, Bryan: that’s Christina: like the, oh my God, this is amazing. Jeff: literally my fucking co-op now sells gummies. Like it’s just like it’s Christina: do. Cause it’s Jeff: so what I need to do to close out my check in is go take a bunch of gummies and go. What did your face look like before your parents were born? all right, Christina, that was I, I took us all over the place. You wanna Christina: did. Yeah. Okay. So I’m still, um, unfortunately dealing with of my, uh, uh, like issues with, with my digestive system, which means like, I’ve been having a hard time, like with, uh, like my esophagus, like, I’ve been it it’s, it’s not the gross digestive stuff. It’s like, there it’s an ulcer something, I don’t know. I’ve got an appointment, but I’m not gonna be able to be in for a couple. So I’ve been dealing with that and that has not been fun at all. Like it’s, it’s been pretty shitty I’m I’m not gonna lie. So that, that’s kind of where I’m at right now. Jeff: I’m sorry, I’m sorry. That’s the kind of thing. That’s like tooth pain. It’s like, it’s just there. Christina: no, E exactly. And it’s just like, it’s not, it’s just not good. Um, but I’m, I’m trying, and, uh, you know, my mom is freaking out obviously because a as frequent listeners of this show know, like my mom is, is like the stereotypical helicopter mom and, and it doesn’t matter how old I am or how old she is. Like, she will never not worry about these things. So, uh, yeah. But, uh, but yeah, no, it’s pretty bad this weekend. Um, and, uh, but hopefully that will, I can at least get things under control until I can get to a doctor and then have, you know, full, uh, you know, upper GI and, and all that stuff. Maybe if they’re scope me, they have to scope me, but that’s fine. Um, but yeah. I mean, I’ve had it done before, so it’s, Jeff: Yeah. No, it’s Brett: Scoping as in like colonoscopy. Christina: Yeah. Potentially or endoscopy, it would be either one I’ve I’ve maybe both ends. Maybe I’ll get lucky and I’ll, I’ll get the, I’ll get I’ll get both. Brett: Ooh. And they can meet in the middle, Christina: God, fuck. Yeah, no, I really don’t want that, but yeah, that would be, Bryan: Oh, my gosh, absolutely not in the middle. I just think about going back. I, Christina, I just think about going back. I can go all the way back to 2007. No, 2003. When I no, 2004, again, can’t do dates. But when I got diagnosed with IBS Christina: mm. Bryan: and the, and like the lead up to dealing with that, like to figuring out what was going on and just the pain, I could still remember the pain, like, uh, Brett: IBS basically means we couldn’t figure out what was going on. Cuz I went through $10,000 out of pocket, worth of colonoscopies and checkups and check-ins and dietary, uh, discovery. And ultimately they’re like, yeah, you have IBS, which means you don’t have diverticulitis. And we don’t find any other issues. Other than you have clear symptoms that we can explain. So you, you have IBS and I have lived with that ever since. Bryan: My doctor was the doctor that I, and I was a different doctor. Cause I was in the middle of nowhere. I was at it like, uh, summer theater doing summer stock theater. And he was like, yeah, I think you have IBS. And I was like, okay. And I mean, I have never, I have never challenged that the things that I’ve done have worked. So, Brett: Yeah, Bryan: uh, Brett: can I, can I complain about one thing before we get to gratitude? Christina: Please. Brett: So Y do you guys remember simple the banking Christina: Uh, Brett: company? Simple. So I, Christina: R I P Brett: yeah, I signed up for simple and they, they closed. I was like, whatever. I had like 30 bucks in my account, they sold my account to PNC bank. and, um, and I, I thought, whatever, you know, it’s, it’s in perpetuity, I’ll have $30, but they started charging service fees. And I got an email. I I’ve been getting emails every 12 hours for the last three days saying that my account was in low balance mode, meaning I was 18 cents overdrawn. Uh, in, this is an account I have not touched in a decade. I do not have an account number. I do not have a card. Jeff: Well, you clearly bought a gumball. Brett: I do not. I do not have anything related to this account. I have no login. I have, I have no way to modify the situation. I’m talking to them and they’re like, oh, all you have to do is show up at a PNC location with a photo ID. I live in fucking bum, fuck Minnesota. I have no PNC location within the state. Let alone near me. Bryan: Oh, my gosh. Brett: So basically I have until 10:00 PM Eastern tonight to rectify this situation before they start charging me overdraft fees on an account, I haven’t touched in a Bryan: Oh, Jeff: Christ. Brett: they’re not giving me. And they’re like, oh, we’ll escalate this issue. Give us your phone number. So I’m waiting for a call Christina: Oh, fuck Brett: Yeah. Christina: Oh my God. What a Brett: just, just close the account. I’ll pay you 18 cents to close my account and just leave me the fuck alone anyway. Okay. So I promised my mother, I would take her for a hike in the Wisconsin wetlands, um, in, I’m supposed to pick her up in seven minutes. So if we could, if we could, if we had roll on into gratitude, I’m sorry. Oh my God. We were gonna talk about Taylor swift for the first time in like how many weeks Grapptitude Christina: Look the whole reason. This is my gratitude. It’s usually an app. It’s gonna be Taylor swift this time. Bryan: perfect. Brett: fair Christina: Okay. So, so Taylor swift, I feel like has written an album. Her next album is called midnight. So it’ll be out in October. I feel like it is in many ways, a complete acknowledgement of this podcast Overtired, because the whole thing is about the things that keep her up at night. Jeff: Nice. Brett: Shout out you Overtired. Bryan: Honestly, I’m down with it. Jeff: Awesome. Yeah, she put a little something in the acknowledgements. I saw, I got a promo of the CD, which probably doesn’t even happen anymore. People get promos of CDs Christina: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Brett: I still get my, uh, my Columbia house, Christina: Columbia house, Brett: every Jeff: God, what a fucking wonderful time. That was. Bryan: Oh my God. Christina: man. I rip, I ripped them off so much. Bryan: my same Christina. Oh my gosh. Oh, Columbia house and BMG. Jeff: if you were under 18, you could. There’s nothing they could Christina: You could. Bryan: could, my parents would just call and say, sorry. Jeff: Oh Christina: Yeah. I, I had accounts on the dog’s name. I’m like, you’re the one who set it up an account for shadow warrant. Like, what is, what is wrong with you? Like Bryan: get so mad at me for doing it again and again, Christina: I didn’t, I didn’t even hide it. Like. Bryan: so many CDs. Jeff: all right. Should we do gratitude? Jesus. I could have gone down that rabbit hole for the next five hours. Uh, Brian, do you have a gratitude? Bryan: Yo, of course I have a gratitude. I’m ready. Honestly, my gratitude is, uh, going to be a is going to be the app craft. Did we do craft already? Christina: No, we haven’t, but I like craft a lot, so, yes. Great, great, great pick Bryan: I love craft. I love craft craft is craft came up at the same time that obsidian did, but it’s very like craft is a prettier Christina: it’s obsidian without having to be all the Bryan: obsidian. Yeah, no, you don’t need to deal with a markdown stuff. Brett: Yeah, I was gonna say, it’s not a, it’s not based on markdown tax files. So we have a, we have a difference of Jeff: Brett, Brett, this is about gratitude. Brett: Right, right. Sorry, this isn’t me. This isn’t mine. Christina: No, what I’m trying to say is obsidian is like for Brett, right? Like, like craft is for like normies. Bryan: Yeah. I got like, I couldn’t keep remembering all of them. My problem with markdown is that I can’t remember the markdown syntax, cuz I haven’t probably used it enough. So craft is great. It’s so pretty. Uh, they’ve been doing so many things. They updated and they have a whole web F now it’s really running so you can use it on the web. They’re also, I mean, we’re gonna give a shout out to all of the teachers and students craft is giving you 50% off Christina: Nice. Bryan: for back to school. Uh, this is, they’re not a sponsor, but they should, um, Yeah, it’s really pretty. It works really well. Um, and they’ve built their own workflows into stuff too, which I really love. So I’m just really loving craft is the place that I can try to remember to go, to, to put things in, because I have the problem of like, where are you putting things, Brian, which of the 15,000 places are you putting things? And craft is on all of the places right now, so I can try to make a craft be the thing. Jeff: Oh, it’s always so nice when you feel like even for a little bit, this is the place. Brett: We could do a whole episode on that. Christina: We really could, Brett: We won’t, cause that’s not what this show is. That that’s what the, that’s what this segment of this show is. Bryan: I mean, Brett, what we could say is that’s the Patreon. Jeff: Hmm. Brett: you can just, you can just listen to Brett opine about note taking methods Bryan: I mean, people would Christina: they would, I’m saying, I’m saying like I Bryan: ready for the Overtired Patreon, cuz I’m signing up. Brett: that said craft is truly beautiful. Like I hit, I hit up, I hit up against limitations. I personally, uh, didn’t like almost immediately, but I could easily see how someone willing to invest in this little craft ecosystem could be like very well served by craft. I think it’s a great app. Christina: Yeah. I, I like it a lot better than notion personally. Jeff: Brett, Brett: Okay. So I’m cheating. I’m going meta. Jeff: you’re choosing meta Brett: my pick meta. No. Bryan: choosing better. Wow. Bold choice, Brett. Brett: My pick this week is home brew. Um, the, the package manager, uh, people old enough to remember Mac ports will understand the concept. Um, anyone younger than that will just understand that if you are willing to install X code, you never actually have to use it, but you get a package manager that from the command line, you can install any command line utility available. And with casks, like the whole thing is beer base. So if you, if you have casks, you can install most Mac apps, especially free ones, uh, using brew. You can dump out a brew file. And when you open up a, a new com a new Mac, you can, you can run a brew. Install that installs all of your favorite packages, all of your favorite apps. It is. It’s just an easy way to, you can type brew, upgrade and upgrade everything on your system all at once. It is just the ultimate package manager. I love it. Bryan: Did you know that you can install Ruby gems using brew? Brett: I did. I knew, I knew it’s possible, even though they specifically said we don’t handle things like pick PIP packages and Ruby gems, you can actually make a formula to install Ruby gems. Bryan: There’s a they’ve. So somebody already has a PA basically a formula to install called Ruby gems, which lets you then install gems Brett: you can, you can tell like brew, gem install, and then, then manage your, your gems through brew. Yeah, I did see that Bryan: Which is how I’m going to install doing on my computer today. Speak. Yeah. Christina: Nice. Jeff: Um, Bryan: Which I’m going to call feeling based on last week’s conversation. Christina: I like. Bryan: about journaling and doing Jeff: All right. Mine is an app called table flip by Christian TES. It’s been out for a while. It’s been out for a few years and, um, what it is. So it’s like a wonderfully simple app for building tables in markdown, but it is also just its own little table building interface that. You can just work with so quickly, like anybody who writes primarily in markdown you’d know the woes of making a table, like you only make a table in markdown when you fucking know you have to, right. But with table flip, like you open this app, you can really quickly kind of go it’s this many rows, this many, whatever you can just do all sorts of really quick movements and start filling out a table that you then copy and paste or export into markdown. And as much as I, I use table flip for making tables that go into markdown documents, I actually use it more often as a thinking and planning tool, sort of how I use mind maps as a thinking tool. So like with table flip, I can just, or open it up and start typing. Um, Kristen Tets is someone I’ve I’ve really, I’ve really loved for a long time. He also made an app called the archive, which is a note taking app. Brett: He was integral in the creation of NV. Jeff: Uh, I did not know that Brett: I used, I used code from divine dominion back in Jeff: I had no idea. He also wrote an app that I love called word counter, which like, it just lives in your menu bar. And you can just say count words in these apps. And then it’ll just tell you, like you just, you just typed 30 words in, you know, Quip, um, or in Firefox or whatever. He just writes these really simple, but like, oh my God, I need these kind of utilities. Brett: he’s a man after my own heart. One thing I would add on about table flip is it does, you can open a markdown file and table flip and have like two-way communication. So you edit the table in table flip and it will automatically update that table in your markdown file. And that’s, that’s the selling Bryan: Oh, wow. Christina: Yes. Brett: you can send a table back and forth between the two. Jeff: That that shows you how much I use this as a thinking tool, because I don’t do that, but that is totally the selling point. And also like people talk a lot about the zeal Caston style of note taking now, like obsidian is all about that and Rome and all this stuff. But like I learned about all that stuff from Christian’s blog and his ability to write about that is just fantastic. So just go check out Christian stuff. Generally, the apps are about 10 bucks each. He’s got other apps besides one we’ve talked about, but just a developer that like, obviously we’re all on board with here. So that’s me. All right. Hey Brian, it was awesome to meet you. Bryan: Friends. This is wonderful. Absolutely. I, this is so great to be with all of you and to see all your faces, Brett: Do you wanna say it, Brian, Bryan: some sleep. Brett: get some sleep. Christina: Get Jeff: some sleep. Track 5: The.

We all know that journaling can be so good for us. Why is it so hard? We talked about what works for us and why. Then Brett tells us about the resurrection of his tool Gather. Have you heard the Good News? Sponsor Meet Mindbloom. When it comes to mental health, sometimes you need something more to achieve a real and lasting breakthrough. Maybe it’s time to check out a guided ketamine therapy program — Mindbloom can help. After only 2 sessions, 87% of Mindbloom clients reported improvements in depression, and 85% reported improvements in anxiety. Right now, Mindbloom is offering Overtired listeners $100 off your first six-session program when you sign up at mindbloom.com/overtired and use promo code overtired at checkout. Show Links exist.io The Artist’s Way Gather Homebrew NSHipster: Swift Program Distribution with Homebrew Welcome to Wrexham Always Sunny Podcast Always Sunny in Philadelphia All That Unicode Orion Opera Arc Anki Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jeffreyguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Thought Bubbles in the Brain Matrix [00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:01] Welcome to Overtired. I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Christina Warren and Jeff Severns Guntzel. How’s it going, Christina? [00:00:12] Christina: Pretty good. Pretty good. [00:00:14] Brett: And Jeff, how are you? [00:00:15] Jeff: I’m good. [00:00:16] Brett: I tried something new this week, instead of just saying how you guys doing and expecting the two of you to vye for dibs. I split it up. I learned that from Jeff. Uh, when, one time when we had multiple people on, I noticed that he very specifically like duck, duck, goosed people into talking. Jeff is a professional interviewer. [00:00:40] Title First, Episode Second [00:00:40] Brett: I have a lot to learn from him. Um, so I wanna start off by just saying that I really wanna title this episode, thought bubbles in the brain matrix. And I would like to tell you why. Um, so my girlfriend Elle uh, she sometimes [00:01:00] has trouble remembering words. I don’t know if related to ASD or just a personality quirk, but she can put together like pictures of the things she wants to say. [00:01:11] And she was trying to ask me about mind mapping, but she couldn’t remember the word mind mapping. And what she came up with by way of explanation was “thought bubbles in the brain matrix.” And, and I was able to put that together. I got that. I understood it. So here by explaining that I now I’ve now given us a reason to call the episode “thought bubbles in the brain matrix,” and immediately explained it to listeners who like maybe tuned in, because it was such a great title. [00:01:41] Jeff: That’s great. This happens to me all the time. It’s like, I, the way I describe it is like I reach into the word bag and I just grab the wrong fucking word. So I just say whatever comes to mind, like “heffleprint”, like what it’s like, there are times when I’ll ask for something and I’ll just say that. [00:01:58] And, and, and my [00:02:00] wife’s at the point where she can just be like, oh, you mean a spoon? Yeah, exactly. [00:02:04] Brett: Well, [00:02:04] Christina: That’s awesome. [00:02:05] Brett: It’s interesting because I, it’s probably true of everybody, but I know that between Elle and I, and this is, uh, the first time I’ve ever had such clear communication with a partner. Um, but we have very different needs in the way things are said to us. Um, and we try to accommodate each other’s need, like, I, for example, if I, if I offer an idea and your first response is here’s what’s wrong with it. [00:02:35] I hear that as like a no, instead of like, uh, that’s a good idea. Let’s see what we could do with it. I, I just hear that as a no. So I need like the first thing out of your mouth to be like, oh, that’s a great idea here’s a problem we might run into instead of jumping straight to the here’s, what’s wrong with the idea, uh, which is that’s the way Elle thinks, like she just accepts that, okay this is the idea we’re [00:03:00] working with, let’s start figuring out how to do it. [00:03:03] Jeff: Not a shocker, Brett your love language is “yes, and.” [00:03:09] Brett: Not a shocker. Yeah. Do you guys wanna do some mental health? [00:03:15] Christina: Definitely. [00:03:16] What are people for? (Mental Health Corner) [00:03:16] Jeff: Hey man, you guys wanna go in the back room and do some mental? [00:03:18] Christina: I like it. [00:03:19] Brett: I got the good stuff. I got the [00:03:20] Christina: I got the good stuff. Yeah. [00:03:21] Brett: Who wants to start? [00:03:23] Jeff: I could start. I have been just over the last week. There’s been just a lot going on. So we, we went to a video game convention, my boys and I, and their friends. I rented a couple of hotel rooms, using points. And so we stayed in the hotel where the convention was. It’s kinda like a 24-hour thing. [00:03:42] I get outta that is being able to go downstairs at like 11 o’clock and play whatever pinball machines I want for a long time, for free, which is really wonderful. But also I was like responsible for, you know, like I, I would set up like a sandwich buffet for these kids, like every day, a couple times a day. [00:03:57] And like just generally tracking these [00:04:00] two age groups around 13 and around 16. And, um, it was wonderful. And it was like, it was a lot to do, which was, but it was totally great. And then that was three days. And then the next day we went to the State Fair here in Minnesota for the whole day. Um, and then yesterday was like my first day back and I remembered I had scheduled with a good friend to take a walk. [00:04:23] And, uh, I did that thing that happens to me all the time where I’m just like, oh man, I’m not ready for this right now. And I like came so close to canceling so many times, but I’ve been challenging myself lately to say yes, more often and trust that. Yes in general on balance, uh, makes me happier than no. [00:04:45] And so I, I just decided not to cancel, which he didn’t even know was a yes, cuz it was already planned, you know, but that is, that is my way. And we had just a lovely night, we had a lovely dinner and a lovely walk in this nature reserve around here. And [00:05:00] then at the same time, a neighbor of ours who we are really close friends with, we have something called the border bar. [00:05:05] It’s at our fence between our two houses. We meet there even in the winter when it’s really cold and, and we just kind of call it like it’s border bar time and we bring some drinks, you know, if someone’s not drinking, we bring some bubbly water. Otherwise someone makes cocktails whatever. And uh, and so they had invited us, uh, over for drinks in the hangout. [00:05:23] And I wanted to say no, cause I was like Ahaha, but I was like, no, say yes, say yes. And, uh, anyway, so I’m just like, I find that when I say yes, I really never regret it. Like I might end up a little more tired than I would’ve liked to be. But when I say yes, even though I think I’d rather be alone is actually like the thinking I’d rather be alone is usually an indicator that probably I could use to hang out with some people, like when those people are like safe people, right. [00:05:50] Like, you know, it’s gonna be pleasant. Like if anything, you’ll just have to leave earlier, then maybe they would want you to, or whatever. So anyway, I’m kind of playing with [00:06:00] I’m, I’m reminding myself of that. I go through phases of this or remind myself like yeah, just say yes. Just say yes. It’s probably gonna be good. [00:06:06] Brett: heard the exact opposite from people who habitually say yes, who have to practice saying no. Um, and I’m a person like it took me until I was maybe 35 years old before I realized that if someone asked me to do something, even if it sounded cool, I was allowed to say no, uh, and conserve my energy and my time, because I would take on like every project, every crazy idea someone came to me with, I’m like, yeah, we can do that. Let’s fucking figure it out. Um, and, and I wore myself very thin doing that, which is, I guess, different than like saying yes to a social engagement, which I could probably do more of. [00:06:47] Jeff: Yeah, no, I mean, where you’re at is more like that really important thing where you have to recognize that when you say yes, you’re saying yes to one thing, you’re saying no to a bunch of things. And often those things are your own peace of mind, [00:07:00] relationships, you know, things that are good for you. [00:07:02] But for me, it’s almost comically, not that problem. It’s really just about like, when I say yes, what I’m saying no to is like essentially hiding. I am someone who for the most part will never be plagued by the problem of saying yes, too much. [00:07:19] Brett: I have no one to say yes to. I have after 44 years I have essentially whittled away everyone who asks me to do social things. I can’t remember the last time that I had a yes or no to offer because no one invites me to do anything anymore. And I’m kind of okay with that. I’m, I’m very okay with that, but maybe I should get out. [00:07:44] Christina: I was gonna say, I think that like that, cuz, cuz I think you’re exactly right. Like there’s the difference between agreeing, you know, to take on work stuff and the social things and to your point, like I I’m with you, Jeff. I’m somebody who I’m social and I go out with people, but I also have a tendency sometimes, especially the last two [00:08:00] years, cuz last two years have been terrible for all of us to like put off. You’re like, oh, you know, I can’t do it right now. Let let’s, we’re definitely gonna get together in the future, you know, to just like find an excuse to not do something. And I find like for my mental health, it’s actually really important for me to get out and do things because as you noted, Brett, like what’ll happen is, is if you say no too many times, people just stop asking and, and that, you know, is, is not great. [00:08:25] So for me, this is something that I, I discovered, you know, that I wasn’t like, you know, as a younger kid, you know, younger teenager, it wasn’t something that I recognize as being really important to me, like being social is something that’s actually really important for my mental health and having actual time with other people. [00:08:44] So, but it [00:08:45] Brett: Like face-to-face time, not just Twitter time. [00:08:47] Christina: Exactly. And Twitter time helps too, but really face to face time, [00:08:50] Brett: I’m really good. At the Twitter time. Face-to-face. I don’t see anybody. [00:08:54] Christina: My mental health, I find. Really is improved when, when I have like a more active in-person kind of social life. [00:09:00] And when you’re married and, you know, older, like it’s harder to make friends. And a lot of times, like, you know, the person you spend the most time with is your partner and that’s not great because at least for, for me, like, I can’t just have like just one person that, you know, I, I see all the time, like it’s actually really important for me – and I find that I, I do better in a lot of regards when I’m around other people. And so I have to similar to you, Jeff, I have to like, remind myself, like, no say yes, do these things go out because you might have some anxiety around it, you might have some other things, but it’s actually fundamentally really important to do, you know, that your overall mental health is gonna be a lot better. And, and it’s just, you know, once you do it, like you’ll appreciate it. And then it’ll like be easier to like, understand, okay, well, what are the things that I need to say no to and what are the things that, you know, I, I can, that’ll actually be really good if I go ahead and do. [00:09:51] Jeff: Yeah, for sure. I also have this thing where like I get feedback from people that they enjoy being around me and, [00:10:00] and I don’t always believe that that could be true. And I think that there’s this. There’s this sort of weird, um, self-compassion chess move in, actually going out and, and giving of myself as well as receiving from people that is like, oh, it’s okay. I, I, I like to be seen, I like to be appreciated. I like to be able to offer up whatever it is I can offer up in relationship with this person. Um, just as much as I, I love receiving from them what they have to offer, and it’s kind of a silly kind of upside down thing, but I’ve, I’ve sometimes thought like I’ve played it out and like, you know, if I only stayed home and if, if everybody that tries to get me out completely gave up, which some people have I would, I think I would just like, I would not be on a good path. [00:10:59] Brett: Yeah, [00:11:00] I feel attacked. To be honest, like there are a couple people in this town that I enjoy, um, as, as conversationalists. Um, but nobody that I feel as close to as some of my online friends, uh, friends that I see maybe once a year there’s, there’s nobody in like driving distance that I really crave seeing, or when I see them feel like I’ve really uh, spent my time well, and I know what that feels like. I know what it feels like to have a satisfying social encounter and to feel very enriched by that. I don’t currently have any friends and that’s not to say there’s nobody cool in this town, cuz there really are. I’ve just, I haven’t forged the relationships and as Christina noted, uh, once you’re older and married, it’s hard to make new friends. Um, [00:12:00] I know they’re out there. I know I’ve had good conversations. Since I quit drinking again it’s been harder to like most of the good conversations I’ve had in this town have been not drunken conversations, but have happened in bars and have happened around alcohol. [00:12:17] And there’s a new bar in town, uh, like a hipster bar, uh, opened by old people. And I think it would be like a hipster bar for old people, [00:12:26] Jeff: like us, [00:12:27] Brett: but it looks like the kind of place that I would be totally comfortable going, ordering a seltzer water or a Heineken Zero Zero, and just sitting and being social with people. Uh, without it feeling like the darker a bar is the more I need to drink. If it’s a well lit bar it’s basically a coffee house and, and I can, I can totally sit there. [00:12:51] So I’m, I’m kind of curious to try reviving that, but yeah, there, there’s just nobody here [00:13:00] that is truly rewarding for me to hang out with. [00:13:04] Jeff: I know one from Winona. [00:13:06] Brett: Is he in Winona though? [00:13:07] Jeff: No he’s from Winona. [00:13:10] Brett: All the good people leave. There’s a guy here named Kalin Kalin Larson, who is an awesome guy, super smart. Um, he he’s a hacker. He makes crazy cool stuff. Um, he got obsessed with, uh, label printers and turned it into like a full-time business writing software because all label printer software sucks. [00:13:36] Jeff: it’s terrible. [00:13:37] Brett: It’s awful. And he fixed it. He like made, uh, like boutique label printer software that he sells for a hefty price, to people who actually wanna use their label printers. Um, and he’s, he’s, he’s brilliant. He’s one of my favorite people. He really is. I just, I’m not good at, I, I [00:14:00] really only make friends with other ADHD, people who converse the way that I do and who just mirror my quirks in a way that’s very comfortable for me. Um, and I don’t always realize that I’m talking to an ADHD person, but I will realize later that is why I got along very well with them. [00:14:21] Um, yeah. Anyway, this, how did this become about me? This is [00:14:25] Jeff: Well, I just want, but that’s fine. I just wanna wrap it unless anybody has anything else to say by saying that I, I don’t want to be suggesting that the only meaningful way to connect is in-person. In fact, I thank the gods that’s not the case because like, most of my social life happens, whether it’s like connecting on Zoom, if only because most of my friends are spread out across the country or the world or whatever, like it would be, you know, for one thing, super ableist to just be like, yeah, no, if I can’t get to the bar, I can’t go out on a walk. It doesn’t matter. [00:15:00] So it doesn’t count. Right. But like, so I really wanna be really super clear about that, that I know there are so many ways it’s really very much just me. It’s about me struggling to do in-person contact and about me saying yes to in-person contact. That’s the, that’s my that’s my personal challenge. [00:15:21] Brett: I see my therapist in person tomorrow. Um, [00:15:25] Jeff: oh yeah. Cuz last time it was online. [00:15:26] Brett: Yeah, I will let you know. I will report back, uh, how that, how that, uh, differs for me. [00:15:33] Jeff: Sounds good. That’s great. What about you, Christina? How you been? [00:15:37] Christina: I’ve been fine, nothing really new to kind of updates since like our last episode, I’ve been fine. Um, like you, I totally agree. Like I love my online friendships and, and like interactions and whatnot. I’m just saying like, Seeing people is good. [00:15:51] And I’m actually gonna see a bunch of people this weekend, because there are two parties I’m going to, I’m going to a, a, a weird hybrid birthday party. That’s gonna be a lot of fun that my friends are [00:16:00] having for their two kids who are very different ages. So that’ll be a lot of fun. And, um, then my, uh, my other friend, he is finally, the next day he’s having, um, a birthday party. [00:16:09] His birthday was in may, but he had to reschedule. So, uh, barring any other things we’re gonna be getting together and I’m finally gonna see his new house. So I’m actually really excited about this because I, like I said, I, I do actually get a lot from being out and seeing people and like being social. [00:16:27] And that’s the thing I think that I miss the that’s been the most different about my life now versus two and a half years ago is that, you know, I used to see people face-to-face every single day reliably. And now I work from home, which is fine. Um, I, I go into a studio once a week, but like, it’s, it’s, you know, I, but I don’t actually see any of my coworkers because we’re all remote and that’s, that’s great. [00:16:51] Like, I love that we have that, but I do miss that, like interaction and, and stuff that I get with like actual [00:17:00] humans. Like, I, I, I, there could be too much of it, but I thrive off of it. And, and it’s something that has definitely made my life worse, not having. So I’m glad that, that I have that. [00:17:09] Jeff: Awesome. House tours and cake. That’s in your future. [00:17:12] Christina: Yep. [00:17:14] Brett: I, uh, so I will, I will say, uh, cuz this is been a thread here, um, like going to MacStock, uh, this year it was a smaller MacStock and um, I really focused my attention on two new friends that I made. Uh, one, one I had met before, but with my ADHD brain, when he contacted me on Twitter to ask what I was up to this year, I was like, who the fuck is this? [00:17:42] Um, and, and Elle was like, oh, that’s Shane. He, he’s a really good guy. You had a good time with him. I’m like, okay. So anyway, we end up hanging out with Shane and, and another friend that I met because we were, we were at a table [00:18:00] expecting, um, Dan, uh, from Agile to show up and he has a beard and he’s bald and a guy walks in matching his profile exactly and I just instinctively like, wave him over. It’s not Dan though. It’s this other guy that I’ve never met before. And he realizes very quickly that. It was a mistake, but asks if he can sit down anyway, becomes like our best friend for the weekend. And, uh, and we had some really cool, really fun conversations and I came home feeling much healthier for the social interaction. [00:18:38] So I’m not immune to this. And I don’t mean to imply that I am, and I should also say I was every year I have a birthday party and the friends that I do actually connect with get invited and it got put off this year for various reasons and I haven’t had it yet and I do miss it. And, and [00:19:00] there are, there are people here that actually do connect with, but I never see on Zoom. Like I see them once a year and I forget about them until that time rolls around. So, uh, scratch what I said before about there being nobody here, there are at least four people in this town that I like. [00:19:17] Jeff: And also just to note everybody, if you are a bald white bearded, man, Brett is gonna have you bring it in [00:19:24] Brett: Yeah, Bring it in. [00:19:28] Sponsor: Mindbloom [00:19:28] Brett: You know when a podcaster record their sponsor reads and posts, and then injects them into weird spots in the episode. Yeah, I’m sorry, but I’m doing that. And this episode kind of got away from us with all the mental health talk. Fortunately today’s sponsor is 100% about mental health. You just need to take better care of yourself is not a response to mental health struggles. [00:19:49] You know it all too. Well, you live with them. Sometimes you need something more to achieve a real and lasting breakthrough. Maybe it’s time you check out a guided ketamine therapy program. [00:20:00] Mind bloom can help. Mindbloom is the leader in, at home ketamine therapy, offering a combination of science, backed medicine with clinician and guide support for people looking to improve their mental health and their wellbeing. [00:20:14] Mind bloom connects patients to license psychiatric clinicians to help them achieve better outcomes with lower cost, greater convenience and an artfully crafted experience. To begin, take mind Bloom’s online assessment to determine if Mindbloom is right for. 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[00:21:27] [00:21:27] Journaling while manic (and otherwise) [00:21:27] Brett: I heard from a bunch of people, I shouldn’t say a bunch. I heard from four different people, um, after our last episode about how they were also bipolar and they, they loved manic episodes loved and hated manic episodes, but they understood like where I was come coming from with like my actual desire for mania when I don’t have it, but then maybe regret when I do have it. [00:21:55] Um, so that’s been, that’s been interesting and I’m, I’m, I’m gonna talk more [00:22:00] about it with my therapist, cuz I have that now. Um, but uh, Friday I started. Uh, a, a manic episode that got pretty intense and, uh, it’s Wednesday now. Um, I started sleeping, uh, Tuesday night, uh, Monday night and Tuesday night. I slept both nights, and got caught back up. [00:22:23] It was just a couple days, but holy shit, I made so much stuff in a couple days. Um, and oh my God, Elle is such a trooper. It’s hard. I, when I get manic, I get very, like, I just wanna hide in code and I, it’s a very, it’s a safe mania. Like I don’t hurt anybody. I don’t, I don’t spend a lot of money. I don’t set a lot of tweets. I don’t do outrageous things. I, I write and I code and, and it’s, it’s overall, [00:23:00] uh, very productive, but it comes at the, the costs of like, uh, interpersonal relationships. And with my ex-wife, like I was having manic episodes that would last 10, 12 days. And I would basically never see her and I would ditch her. And I swore never to do that again. So I make my manic episodes are way less serious or intense now than they were. um, and I make an effort to like, be part of the family and to join, but Elle a is really good. [00:23:37] She’s fine on her own. Like, she doesn’t mind having the house to herself while I disappear to my office for hours on end. Uh, but also she looks out for me, like she does what she can to kind of pave the way for me to just get through it, uh, kind of pain free because I immediately start worrying, like, how am I fucking in my [00:24:00] relationship? [00:24:00] Like, I’m, I’m focused, I’m obsessed with this piece of code that I’m working on, but in the back of my mind, how am I fucking up my relationship, uh, right now. And, and she, she, she does her best to make it okay. Not in a codependent way, just in way that says, Hey, I know what you’re going through. And. I’m not mad at you. [00:24:24] And she’ll like, say out loud, I’m not mad at you, which is helpful, but yeah, it’s, I’m, I’m coming down still. You can tell I’m a little bit, uh, we’ll say frazzled, but, um, I am looking forward to going to see my therapist tomorrow . Having had enough sleep. Oh. And I journaled through this whole episode, like he told me he wanted, he wanted documentation of my manic episodes. [00:24:53] And I was like, just look at my GitHub chart. you can tell where, where, when and where my manic [00:25:00] episodes happened based on my GitHub activity. Uh, and he was pretty impressed by that, but I figured I’d go the extra mile and I started journaling as soon as I realized I was. And I’ve journaled every day through the process. [00:25:13] And that first day, holy shit, I wrote four pages. It just pours out. And then today I wrote a paragraph. It waned off after a couple nights without sleep, [00:25:26] Jeff: Have you ever journaled through a episode before? [00:25:29] Brett: no, the closest I’ve gotten is blogging about like, I did a, a couple of blog posts. I did one during the mania and then forced myself during depression to do a follow up. [00:25:42] Like, this is what the other side is like. Uh, which is really hard for me. I typically don’t write when I’m depressed. Uh, after, after a, you know, a week of putting out a blog post every day, then there’ll be like two weeks where I don’t post at all. Um, [00:26:00] but, uh, that’s the closest I’ve ever gotten to actually putting into words what was happening. [00:26:06] Uh, so this time I have, I have some documentation. [00:26:10] Jeff: I’m not asking you to be specific, but I’m curious, um, we can get so sort of stuck in our stories about our mental health or about how we experience this thing or that thing. Right. Cause we kind of tell it the same way over and over for me, the way that stuff breaks is when I can journal that’s when things like become that’s when I get surprised is what I’m trying to [00:26:31] say. Um yeah. You know, and, and [00:26:34] Christina: you to like re-remember or like re-experience and, and recontextualize, oh, Right its not just this loop that I’ve been replaying that I’ve told myself. It’s it’s maybe these other things. [00:26:44] Jeff: And it’s like truly, truly, truly not for an audience, right? Like not in any way, shape or form. Um, and Brett, I was just curious if anything, about the journaling, not that I’m expecting it should have surprised you. I’m just curious if it did [00:26:55] surprise [00:26:56] Brett: Totally totally like when I’m manic, [00:27:00] I can start chaining together. Thoughts in ways that normally I would hit a logical conclusion very quickly. Uh, but when I’m manic, like I, one thing makes me realize another thing in succession and journaling in that state actually proved to be very, um, in depth. Like I discovered things in the process that I hadn’t previously realized, and they were things that I was excited to talk to my therapist about. And you’re right. It is very different than writing for an audience because I’m in that I am, I’m mentally curating what I share. Uh, when I’m journaling, I took out all the filters and I’m, I’m, I’m honest with people, but I don’t dig. I don’t dig the way I did in that journaling. So yeah, I [00:27:53] Jeff: I don’t feel like it’s about being honest or not honest. I think that when you share about yourself in public, you are, you are [00:28:00] crafting a self in the truest sense and, and you’re crafting a self that is, I mean, hopefully you’re able to craft a self that is, that is safe being that self out in the world. Right. And which no doubt means you’re leaving parts out as you should. Right. Cause it’s like [00:28:16] Christina: Yeah. [00:28:19] Brett: Yeah, there’s very little. I leave out. Um, yeah, no, I guess there are things I leave out just for people’s sanity. [00:28:27] Christina: Well right. Cuz that’s that’s the thing is like, I. So it’s funny because for me, I, the first time, and really like the only time I was ever able to consistently journal and, and I kind of wish I could get back on it. Ironically was when I had a live journal starting in high school and then in college. And, and what I liked about that is that yes, there was that public aspect, which. Yes, you, you can censor, even if you’re not trying to censor, like it just, as you were saying, you, you, there’s a different craft. There’s, there’s a different thing. But what was great about live journal is you could also have completely private posts, right. That [00:29:00] were only for yourself and, and that, that you could have there. [00:29:03] And so, you know, like I, I appreciated that like motif, cuz I was like, I can do the thing that I’m used to doing that I’ve kind of made a habit of mine, which was good for me, but I can also be like really honest in a way that, that I, I wouldn’t feel comfortable even like if you’re not trying to hide things, you’re not trying to lie. [00:29:20] It’s just like, there’s stuff that, not anybody else’s business, there’s personal writing, you know, I could still do that in that space. And I always like having kind of that dual thing, but I think you’re right. Like it’s very different, at least for me, even if we’re, we tend to be more honest about how we do things about if you’re just journaling for yourself, You don’t ever expect anybody to read it. [00:29:41] Maybe you don’t even want anybody to read it. Right? Because that, that’s not how you’re doing it versus knowing that someone could read it. [00:29:49] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:51] Brett: I did this journal. I wrote to my therapist, um, I didn’t write dear diary. Like in [00:30:00] my head, I was like, these are things I want my therapist to know. [00:30:03] Christina: That’s really smart. [00:30:05] Brett: I don’t know if that’s smart or if that made me censor it a little bit because, um, like I barely know the guy at this point. Uh, I, [00:30:14] Christina: that’s a good thing too, right? Like when you don’t know somebody like you don’t like, you don’t have any of that built ups of like, am I [00:30:20] Brett: I suppose, yeah, [00:30:21] Christina: am they gonna judge me in a way? It’s like, I don’t know this person who [00:30:24] Brett: like it’s very important to me. If I’m gonna make therapy work, it’s very important to me that I don’t lie and manipulate. Um, and so I, I approached it with that consideration in mind. Uh, but basically everything I wrote was stuff that I wanted him to read. Uh, not the deep I I’ve read. I’ve snuck in, in read girlfriend’s journals in the past, um, which is a super shitty thing to do. [00:30:53] And if you’re young and dumb, don’t even [00:30:56] Christina: fucking do [00:30:57] Brett: don’t fucking do it [00:30:58] Christina: You a, you don’t [00:30:59] wanna do it [00:31:00] a, a, you don’t wanna do [00:31:00] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, [00:31:01] Christina: because nothing you learn is going to make you feel good. There’s only possibility you’ll feel bad. And you were violating like the most intimate trust you could ever have [00:31:09] Brett: such a violation. And then, and then you feel compelled to like confront them about this thing that, that got under your skin, but then you have to admit that they, that you read their journal and then holy shit, that, yeah, you, it is a world of hurt. It’s a world of pain. Never, ever, ever read someone else’s journal. [00:31:31] Just take it from a guy who’s been young and dumb and jealous and stupid. Uh, just don’t read anyone’s journal, but I will say what I learned from that is that people who actually know how to journal, they don’t, they don’t filter. They just pour it all out. And, and that’s maybe something I, I think I filter everything on the fly. [00:31:57] I don’t think I know how to actually [00:32:00] journal. I’m always, always writing for an audience. Even when I’m writing for myself, [00:32:05] Jeff: have you ever heard of the, I mean, this dates me, cuz this is forever old. Um, the book, “The Artist’s Way” by Julie Cameron, [00:32:15] Brett: vaguely familiar. Don’t know [00:32:17] what it is. [00:32:18] Jeff: um, it’s, it’s a book about, it’s just a book about creativity. It’s a book about how to sort of, um, claim your creativity and your, your creative self essentially. Um, and I read it, it’s like a workbook kind of, I read it, uh, back in 2000, maybe 1999. [00:32:37] Um, but the thing that stuck with me and I don’t do it all the time, but it gets right to, this is there’s a practice she encourages you to do early on throughout the period that you’re working through this workbook, which is like the couple months and she calls it the Morning Pages. And the idea is that you just open up a journal or you grab three pieces of printer paper, and you just write, you write three pages, you just write straight through. You don’t – you’re not trying to sound [00:33:00] smart. Um, you’re doing what you can do to make yourself feel safe, that nobody would ever read this thing. [00:33:06] Right. And it’s just three pages. You don’t write more. You just go it’s, you can write big, you can write small, whatever it is, but you just like let it all flow out. First thing in the morning is sort of the primary idea. And, um, what I have found when I’m doing that and I I’ve done it, the longest period I did, it was like something 170 days or something. [00:33:26] I remember the, I remember counting, um, you know, you can, one way she has you do it is just put those three pages in a sealed envelope when you’re done and put it in a file cabinet. You you’re not supposed to even reread. ’em it’s just like the idea is, and you’re not going back to this nothing. Right. Um, what I have found when I do that is that after a few days, I am surprised every day. [00:33:50] So I find it annoying to do. Sometimes I’m not in the mood to do it. Sometimes I write really big so I can get through my three pages quickly. But if I do it [00:34:00] every day, there is some little surprise in there. And little surprise, nothing big, nothing mind blowing. That makes me think. I’m really glad I did that today. [00:34:08] And, um, the fact of, you know, this idea that it’s just three pages and nobody’s ever gonna read this and I am not trying to sound smart. I am not trying to get complete thoughts out. Um, you know, I’m not trying to explain something to myself, which is sometimes what can happen in journaling. Uh, I just find that to be an amazing practice and I highly recommend it. [00:34:27] Brett: What do, why, why in the morning versus in the evening, like, what do you write about in the morning? Like in the evening I would write about my day here’s, here’s what I experienced. Here’s how I felt about it. What do you write first thing in the morning? [00:34:43] Jeff: so for me, why it works well in the morning and I’ve tried it all different points in the day is that in the morning, I’m kind of putting myself on like, you know, like I’m, I’m dressing in me. Um, and I actually find the transition from [00:35:00] sleeping and dreaming. I’m, I’m a very intense dreamer. So I find that transition from that point into breakfast, into work, to be actually really difficult and, and in need of some sort of ritual. [00:35:11] Um, and, and this stops me when I’m doing it. And it’s not just that I need that ritual and I need it there more than any place else. I could also use a ritual at the end of the day, for sure. Like leaving work and going into family stuff. But like, it’s actually, it’s a ritual, not just to transition myself, um, physically into a new space, but it’s like, I just come to find when I’m doing it in the morning that I have some leftover thoughts from the day before I have some worries about the day. [00:35:39] Um, I have some things that have been just sort of passing through my head, but I haven’t really grabbed them and acknowledged that they’re there. And, uh, and I find that I, I need to sort that stuff. I mean, I find, sorry that it’s super useful to sort that stuff in the morning before I enter into my day, um, through these morning pages, whereas the end of the day, it’s just like, [00:36:00] I’m more kind of exhausted and it’s just more of a yeah. [00:36:03] And this and this and this and this and this. Whereas in the morning, it’s like, I’m a little more open to the universe. And like, I haven’t quite like, I haven’t quite solidified into like who I am for the day yet. And so it feels like there’s an opening there just to get a little metaphysical. [00:36:18] Brett: All right. I I’m gonna have to give it a try. See what happens. Like I like, I, I like the idea of jo… I’ve always liked the idea of journaling, but now that I started, um, I’m definitely curious to see. What else I can do with it. Cause like I have all these tools that track what I’m doing and, and how it’s going. [00:36:39] Uh, like I can see my productivity. I can, I can remember what I was working on, but my feelings have always been kind of ignored. [00:36:52] Jeff: Yeah, [00:36:53] Brett: so [00:36:54] Jeff: You don’t get those in GitHub unless you’re a really good commentor. [00:36:55] A GitHub activity chart for my feelings [00:36:55] Brett: Right, like a GitHub, a GitHub activity chart for my [00:37:00] feelings, which I, you guys remember exist. exist.io. Um, it is, uh, it’s a web service web app. I don’t anyway, um, it, you, at its core, you rate your mood from like one to 10 every day and you write a little status update, but you can write as much as you want, and you can add all kinds of tags, uh, at various signs throughout the day. [00:37:29] And you can, and it can automatically pull in data from other like social media sites and every week it sent you a summary of like how you did that week. Like, how were you feeling? What was your mood? And it’s pretty basic. It’s just, it’s a mood tracking app and I’ve kind of followed them from their inception like 10 years ago. And I used it pretty frequently for almost two years. Uh, and then like in my head [00:38:00] I was capturing data that would be useful to me. Um, and ultimately having years worth of mood data was not, it didn’t help me make any decisions and I kinda lost the drive to do it, but, uh, I think it kind of serves the same purpose as, as, as journaling. [00:38:24] Christina: Definitely. I think like if, what you’re wanting to get out of the journaling is to kind of track that sort of thing. I think it can, like for, for me, journaling is about getting my thoughts and my feelings out even if I never look at it again, just so I can work through my emotions so that I’m not bottling it up and carrying it forward and making things bad, like by, by, by having some explosion later on, because I never got my feelings out. Like that’s what it is for me. I don’t, I can’t say that for everybody else, but for me, [00:38:51] Jeff: pressure release. [00:38:51] Christina: Yeah, well, not even that, but just to be like, acknowledge that things happen and just write about stuff and just get my feelings out and just like, now I can, I’ve worked [00:39:00] through things because I’ve, I’ve been able to talk about some someplace I’ve been able to like, do, do what I needed to do. [00:39:04] Right. Like that, that becomes like a big thing. So yeah. [00:39:09] Brett: I would, uh, [00:39:11] Jeff: I’m curious just generally for you, does that take a lot of journaling or a little journaling? I’m always surprised by how much can be done in a little bit, [00:39:19] but you just described sounded like a lot of work, but it doesn’t not for you. [00:39:23] Christina: Well, I mean, it can, and again, I haven’t done this regularly in a really long time and I should get back to it again. It could just be small things, right. It could be small things. And in some ways, to be honest with you, I kind of treat Twitter in some ways as, as a journal, a little bit, I kind of Chronicle things as they’re happening. [00:39:37] And like, if I’m frustrated with something, then I’m like tweeting through my frustration. Like maybe not the same way that I would like journal it, but I’m like, wow, this is really annoying. And I’m doing this. And that’s, that’s like a really good thing for me. [00:39:48] Brett: That that’s why I built Slogger like, so I started using Day One and I was journaling a little bit in Day One and I realized most of what I was journaling was stuff that I already tweeted. [00:40:00] And so I built Slogger for anyone who doesn’t know, it stands for social logger, which it was a horrible name. But it ran on a cron job or a, a launchd job. [00:40:12] And it would basically bring in all of your tweets, all of your Instagram posts, all of your Facebook posts and just like create a Day One journal of your social media, which in effect what, like what, what you’re talking about, Christina, it basically automated the process of journaling for me. uh, but only the stuff I was willing to share public. [00:40:37] Christina: Right. That’s the thing. Right. And, and, and that’s why sometimes I have to like, get myself back into that mindset where I’m like, okay, if I, I really, really need to do more personal journaling. And for me, like having it be in a web database and having the ability to kind of pick and choose what could be public and what could be private like that, especially that time in my life. [00:40:54] Right. Like that was, you know, when I was, like 17, you know, 18, through , like [00:41:00] early twenties, like that was like a really formative, time, cuz you know, your body’s changing, you have a lot of emotions. Like you’re going through a lot of life changes. Like that’s like a really formative time for a lot of people. [00:41:10] Um, and, and so I think that that worked really well for me, but I’m I’m with you, it, it, it doesn’t bring in the stuff that you would do privately. And for me, like journaling, cuz I, I tried a bunch of ways before. Like I always tried to keep a diary or keep like a word document or, or other things and it’s like, I needed. [00:41:28] Almost like, I it’s almost like I needed that social interaction to make it a habit where I could then do like the, the personal writing stuff. If that makes any sense, like I needed some sort of carrot, some sort of thing to pull me in, live journal was great, man. Live journal was great. [00:41:43] Brett: So you guys have heard of doing my little command line tool for like, you can absolutely use that for journaling. You can add a note to any doing entry and you can open up an entry in your text editor [00:42:00] and you can just like, as thoughts occur to you, as problems happen, as things like it’s a very personal log file, that can keep track of, you know, what you’ve committed to GitHub and what you’ve tweeted, but also like you can add all kinds of personal notes to that. [00:42:17] And I’m, I’ve started doing that, um, just over the last few days, which is now I have a searchable archivable version of my journal. I like. [00:42:28] Jeff: Actually I wanna start using that. Um, I use doing off and on. I love doing, um, I have a friend who just does, uh, like essentially like what you would do to kind of comment out in bash as a command and uses that to log what he’s working on in thinking. And then he just like makes it so that his bash history is, is infinite. [00:42:50] And he can just kind of grep it basically, which is genius. actually, he told me this when [00:42:58] Brett: do [00:42:58] Jeff: I, what? [00:42:58] Brett: Do comments get [00:43:00] saved to your history? [00:43:00] Jeff: yeah. Anything, any command you type in, gets saved to your history? [00:43:04] Brett: I didn’t know that. [00:43:06] Jeff: Yeah. He told me that either after I told him about doing or before I told him about doing, I’m not sure which, but anyway, I, when I’ve really got my shit together, I keep a document open and called the distraction dump. [00:43:17] And so if I have this like thing where I want to go Google something, I just type what I wanted to Google into that document. I realize that would be a great use of doing cause you don’t even, I mean, I could just [00:43:27] Brett: And you could tag it with at Google and [00:43:30] Jeff: totally. I’m gonna about that. I’ll check back in. [00:43:35] Gather Redux! (With a loving nod to Aaron Schwartz) [00:43:35] Brett: if I can, if I can segue this into, um, well, shit, like, I wanna talk about what I did during this manic episode, but also I’m suddenly finding it, not that interesting. Uh, okay. Let I’ll, I’ll [00:43:52] Christina: the one who gets to choose that. So [00:43:54] Jeff: Yeah. You don’t get to choose [00:43:56] Brett: I’ll summarize. Okay. History. I [00:44:00] used to have a tool called Gather. It was a cocoa app for Mac that you could pace a, uh, URL into and it would give you a Markdown version after running it through Readability and Aaron Schwartz’s html2text it, it, it requires Python. Um, as all of my, all of my markdownifying scripts require Python. And as of the last two, OSs, Apple has stopped shipping Python by default. So all of my scripts only work. If you are savvy enough to have installed like the command line tools or your, your own versions of Ruby and Python and Perl. [00:44:44] And so I was looking for an alternative and it, I, it turned out that, a guy who I had shared my original, like I modified over the years, I’ve modified, [00:45:00] html2text to handle more modern markup and to output, uh, more multimarkdown syntax. Um, so I had shared that with this guy and, when I tweeted that I couldn’t find a Swift or Objective C version of this he’s like, oh yeah, I converted your scripts to Swift long time ago. And he sent me the repos and, and they were in Swift and I dug into them and knowing that it would solve my problem, that I could now release Swift or compiled versions of the scripts. I decided I was gonna learn Swift. So between last Friday and this Wednesday, I have learned enough Swift to be dangerous. I’ve learned, I’ve learned by hacking, but then I also went back and loaded up the most recent version of Apples Swift, uh, their book on [00:46:00] books.app. I had the original like swift 1.0 version, and it’s just a it’s updated itself over time. [00:46:07] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say it keeps updating itself, which I both like, and don’t like, like, I appreciate that it updates itself, but I’m also kind of like, okay, but I’d like to see a diff of this because [00:46:15] Brett: Well, dude, I’ve watched the changes in Swift over the last five versions and it has been enough to dissuade me from learning Swift because like core things are changing [00:46:29] Christina: Same, same. Because, because I like got excited, I was like, oh, I’m gonna get really into Swift. And then like every major version, I’m like, oh, so this is completely different. And I, I can’t rely on this. Like, I feel like, you know, like objective C and cocoa and stuff. It’s like, they added new features, but it wasn’t like if they deprecated [00:46:44] Brett: didn’t, it wasn’t breaking it. They weren’t breaking changes. [00:46:48] Christina: Whereas now it’s like, it feels like, and I know this isn’t true, but it feels like every year. They make some sort of massive breaking change where, where, where if you’ve done something, you can’t do it. And so, I [00:47:00] don’t know, like I have a, this is my own personal, like, rant that I’ll go on. I think that that’s really hurt the adoption outside of people who write iOS apps and certain macOS apps. [00:47:09] Right. Because there are still a lot of macOS apps that people still write in objective C for reasons like we’re saying, because they’ve either existed for a long time or they need to do certain things that Swift and the various Swift kits can’t do. And I’m like, yeah, it’s great to have updates, but it’s not great to like maybe make you have to refactor everything you’re [00:47:30] Brett: I’m. [00:47:30] Christina: doing. [00:47:31] Brett: The detriment is it’s a constantly expanding language. So if you wanna, you could lock into a version of the compiler and, and your code would continue to work. But if you want to take advantage [00:47:48] Christina: That’s what I [00:47:48] Brett: added each year, then you have to adapt. [00:47:51] Christina: That’s what I mean. If you look at something like .net – .net has had a bunch of variations, had a bunch of shit over the years and whatnot, but[00:48:00] if you wanna add in some of the new features, they have gone out of their way to make it possible to add those things without having to adopt the whole new set. Now they went through their own – there was like .net and .net core and, and, and all these other like iterations and all these other things. And like, they went through a bunch of stuff. Now they’re actually solidified on one base that runs multi-platforms and whatnot. And they’re adding things back, but it felt like, you know, basically I think probably because they knew that that Windows devs were, are not like Mac devs and that they will, you know, adopt the newest thing, no matter how much work it is for them, because Apple said so, and, and, you know, the users will demand it. [00:48:38] You know, the, the, the Windows devs are kind of like, fuck you. Like, we’re gonna do whatever we need to do. Um, but, um, like we’re, we’re, we’re gonna adopt our own thing. And if anything, we’re going to hold things back because you didn’t make the new thing work with our old workflow. All I’m saying is I think that this is one of those things that if you look at this thing, it can keep people from wanting to jump in, just cuz you [00:49:00] know that if you wanna cont, if you wanna adopt new things, you wanna keep up with things. You’re gonna have to be on this running treadmill forever. [00:49:07] Brett: me from wanting to jump in for like five years. I watched all of the tribulations that developers who immediately adopted Swift went through, I will say now that I’m into the thick of it it is a way more fun language than objective C way more fun. Everything about it makes more sense. Everything about it is far more reasonable than objective C. Like if you wanna concatenate two strings, you can use, uh, like plus equals you can use like an additive operator and in objective C you’d have to do like string by appending string. And that it’s, it’s ridiculous. So it’s a better language. I love it. [00:49:52] I’m really into it. Um, and I got like, I was able to update html2text, uh, the [00:50:00] Swift version with all of the new features I wanted to add. And I also, it, it also uses, uh, a port of Arc90’s Readability. Uh, if you guys remember that, that I modernized for, modern markup. Basically it finds the actual content in a webpage, it extracts or removes sidebars and headers and advertisements and comments and all of those things. [00:50:26] Uh, and then I built special handling for – any Stack Exchange question gets special handling so that you get the question and the answers. And there are flags on the app that let you include comments or exclude comments or only include their accepted answer, or only include answers that have so many up votes and then special handling for, developer, forums on Apple etcetera. Anyway, I, I got crazy with it. I made a tool that you could basically embed into a shortcut or an [00:51:00] Automator workflow or any script you are working on and, and have full power of, Marky markdownification. And, uh, I just, before this podcast added, um, the ability to clip directly into an nvUltra or nvAlt note, uh, you can add a flag and it will markdownify the page and create a new note in one step, which now I have that in a Launch Bar action and I can, I can turn any webpage I’m reading into a Markdown note in nvUltra with, with a keystroke. Um, [00:51:39] Jeff: I love it. [00:51:40] Brett: yeah, it got it got crazy. It did. It got crazy. Yeah. But oh, so I go to release it – I compile it as a binary and it’s the first time I’ve ever released a single binary, um, not a script [00:52:00] and not an app, but a binary. And I code sign it. I zip it. And I put it up on the web, you know, it runs fine for me. And then I hear immediately from someone who’s like, I get a malicious software warning when I try to install [00:52:16] Jeff: boy. [00:52:17] Brett: And it turns out you can’t code sign, you can’t notarize a single binary. You can only notarize a package. So then I go through this rabbit hole and I finally figure out the only way to distribute it is to create a PKG file that I, I, I send to Apple’s notary service. I get notarized and then publish that PKG file, which is then an installer and then you can only install it to one location. And it’s not ideal, but I’m like, okay, I can work with it. And then I figure most of the people who would actually use this have Homebrew installed, and I really need to figure out how to build a Homebrew formula. [00:53:00] And I go to Homebrew home brew’s formula documentation is fucking intense. [00:53:05] It’s so long. [00:53:07] Christina: But, very good. [00:53:09] Brett: it’s very good, but I’m going through it, trying to figure out what the little bit of it that I [00:53:14] Christina: No, no, no, no. I understand. I’m just saying cuz [00:53:16] Brett: impossible. [00:53:17] Christina: cuz I’ve had to package fonts before, like, [00:53:20] Brett: my. [00:53:20] Christina: or I had tried to package a fonts, on Homebrew and it was, was like, not mine, but I was just gonna be like the packager and, so yeah, it’s a whole thing. Yeah. [00:53:27] Brett: I eventually found after, after going through several tutorials that were outdated because Homebrew’s formula has changed. Um, I found an NShipster article that I’ll link in the show notes for anyone who does care about this. Um, it took me five minutes once I understood the, the few things I actually needed. Uh, now you can just type “brew tap ttscoff/thelab”, and then “brew install gather-cli” [00:54:00] and, and you’re good to go. You have a, a copy compiled on your own system so you don’t have to worry about notarization or anything. And. [00:54:09] Christina: is great. Yeah. Although there is a certain irony that the whole reason you went through this process was that you didn’t want people to have to install Xcode tools, to be able to run these things. [00:54:19] Right. But. I mean, that was the whole reason you did this, but of course, in order to have Homebrew installed, you still have to have Xcode tools installed. So there is a certain irony in this, right? Uh, that, that you went through this entire process to avoid something that is still going, people are still going to have to do anyway. [00:54:34] But, [00:54:34] Brett: in my, in my manic, in my manic frazzled state. I hadn’t even considered that [00:54:39] Jeff: awesome, Christina. I love it. [00:54:48] Christina: [00:54:48] But in fairness, once they’ve gone through it, this will make updating it much easier, right? [00:54:52] Brett: If you don’t already have Homebrew up and running and you use a Mac and you’re any kind of nerd, you really should get it up and [00:55:00] running, like you should already have that working. Um, which is probably a, a fair assumption that most of the scripts I share are going to people who already have all of the processors, but it’s a, it’s a principle. [00:55:14] It’s the principle of the thing. Um, but yeah, Homebrew is amazing and it like, it has surpassed all other package managers. And now that it can install like ever since casks showed up and, and now you can create a Brewfile that automatically installs all of your apps and your command line utilities, [00:55:37] Jeff: How love my Brewfile. [00:55:39] Christina: me too. [00:55:40] Brett: Homebrew… [00:55:42] Christina: a ton of time with Mike McQuaid who’s like the main maintainer, uh, of, of Homebrew, at our, um, little mini summit a couple months ago. And, I might have fangirled a little bit to be completely [00:55:53] Brett: Yeah, hobnobbing with the stars. [00:55:55] Christina: because I was like, I was like, no, you don’t understand. I’m such a huge [00:56:00] fan. I’ve been such a huge fan for such a long time. And I really appreciate what Homebrew does and the fact that it works on Linux now. And like, you know what I mean? Like, like which, which I get I’m like, well, there are a million other package managers. Yes. I understand that. I like Homebrew fuck off. [00:56:14] Brett: Oh, that makes me want, that makes me want a Docker image that installs Homebrew on Linux that I can just use “brew” to install all of the packages I need “apt get” as a pain in the ass sometimes. Um, anyway. Okay. I didn’t want to go too in depth about Gather, uh, I built a tool. It markdownifies webpages. [00:56:38] You can incorporate the scripts. It was a blast. And I, I did it all in a weekend and I’m really happy with it. And that’s all I’m gonna say. [00:56:48] AD: TextExpander [00:56:48] okay. It’s time to talk about text expander, get your team communicating faster so they can focus on what’s most important with text expander. [00:56:57] Your team’s knowledge is that their fingertip. [00:57:00] Get your whole team on the same page, by getting information out of silos and into the hands of everyone that needs to use it, you can share your team’s knowledge across departments. So your team is sending a unified message to your customers and isn’t spending time reinventing the wheel. [00:57:17] Here’s how it works. First, you store it. Keep your company’s most used emails, phrases, messaging, URLs, and more right within text expander. [00:57:26] Then you can share it, get your whole team access to all the content they need to use every day. Then you expand it, deploy the content you need with just a few key strokes on any device across any apps you use. [00:57:39] It is that easy text expander is available on Mac windows, Chrome, iPhone iPad. It’s everywhere you needed to be. Uh, Overtired listeners get 20% off their first year. Visit text expander.com/podcast. To learn more about text expander. And actually, I am gonna say more, you [00:58:00] know, how I’ve used text expander that’s relevant to this episode, we’ve talked so much about journaling. [00:58:05] I used to keep a, a daily journal template in text expander, and it was essentially just, I open up a text file. I, I typed my shortcut and a whole template of prompts and, and, and various ways into journaling came before me. Uh, it was magical and it helped me a lot. Um, because before I even knew what I was doing, I was journaling. [00:58:28] So anyway, text expander, friends. [00:58:33] Welcome to Wrexham [00:58:33] Brett: Do you guys have time for one TV show? Um, so, [00:58:37] Christina: time. [00:58:39] Brett: uh, have you seen “Welcome to Wrexham”? [00:58:42] Jeff: No. [00:58:44] Brett: is it’s Ryan Reynolds and Rob, and I never say his [00:58:48] Jeff: Oh, I, I. [00:58:49] Brett: Rob me from sunny [00:58:52] Christina: Um, yeah. Yeah. Okay. McElhenney. Yeah. Yeah. [00:58:55] Brett: buy, they buy a, a football, a soccer let’s, let’s be American about it. They buy a [00:59:00] soccer team, uh, they’re currently in like the third tier league and so they buy, they buy basically a loser soccer team in, in Wales and it’s a documentary that’s tracking like maybe how they turned this team around, but it’s only, there are only two episodes out. [00:59:22] Christina: So it’s like Ted Lasso but, like, real life. [00:59:24] Brett: Yeah. This is documentary. [00:59:27] Christina: was gonna say, I remember now hearing that Ryan Reynolds had bought like a, um, a club, but I didn’t realize that that that Mac, bought the club with him. [00:59:36] This is amazing. And I’m like very into this because [00:59:39] Brett: and they had never met before this. [00:59:42] Christina: So that makes it even better. So real quick pivot do either of you watch the Always Sunny in Philadelphia podcast. [00:59:51] Jeff: No. [00:59:51] Christina: Okay. You have to it’s like one of those recap pop podcasts, except they completely dismiss of any idea that they’re bothering with recapping the episodes at [01:00:00] all. [01:00:00] Like they’ll show, share memories about stuff, but honestly, it’s just the three of them talking the shit and occasionally bringing in, you know, other guests and people from, the show and whatnot. It is the Always Sunny podcast is everything that you like love about always sunny, but you actually get to see like the people like the guys, like you really get a feeling like it’s just like kind of the three of them, like talking the shooting the shit and like having a good time. [01:00:24] But, but the podcast is, is great. Highly recommended to anybody who watches the show and likes the show. Um, cuz it’s all three of them are brilliant and that show’s gonna fucking pass the honeymoons. If it hasn’t already like it’s it’s gonna it’s no, it’s gonna pass Gun Smoke. That’s what it’s it’s gonna fucking pass Gun Smoke. [01:00:40] It’s gonna become like the longest running televised, like, like live action show of all time, which is insane. Like it’s, it’s gonna like fucking, Always Sunny in Philadelphia that and Grey’s Anatomy, those are the two that are gonna fucking beat Gun Smoke, man, which is insane. [01:00:55] Brett: In the first episode of Welcome to Wrexham, , Mac is like, so I have [01:01:00] TV, star money. But if I wanna do this, I need movie star money So he brings in Ryan Reynolds and honestly, I can listen to Ryan Reynolds just riff all day. [01:01:14] Grapptitude! [01:01:14] Brett: So should we do some gratitude before it gets too long? [01:01:17] Jeff: Let’s grappta grappta grapptitude. [01:01:19] Brett: I’ll start off. I can go first. Um, I have an app called All That Unicode it’s a cool app that basically just gives you access to every Unicode character through different, like there’s a picker and you can go through categories and there’s a finder to search by name and description. [01:01:40] And for anyone, writing code who wants to include a Unicode character, whether it’s an emoji or, you know, like a Cyrillic “R” symbol or whatever, it it’s a perfect. For web devs, [01:02:00] too. Who, who need to know the, the Unicode code to insert a character in a webpage? It it’s, it’s a perfect little app. It does exactly what it needs to do. [01:02:11] I, uh, I’ve been very impressed with it. I use it a bunch of times today. That’s my pick for the day. [01:02:19] Jeff: Awesome. What do you got Christina? [01:02:21] Christina: Um, okay. I think I’m gonna talk about a more general kind of thing. And I wanna dive into this maybe as a topic in a future episode. So I’ve been spending a lot of time kind of looking at, at alternative web browsers. [01:02:32] So getting away from just using, you know, like, like Safari, Firefox, Edge, um, you know, uh, Chrome, and looking at some other ones out there, and obviously most of them are using the chromium, uh, rendering engine, but there’s one notably that, that doesn’t, but I’ve been playing around with, um, Opera, which, you know, I think Chinese own it now, but it’s sort of interesting Vivaldi, which also. [01:02:53] Brett: Old school. [01:02:55] Christina: which, but they’ve been keeping them updated, which is interesting. They’re kind of like at the Brave school, but they do some interesting [01:03:00] things. There’s one called Arc. Arc is, uh, from a browser company, which is really about like making, like your work stuff more productive Arc is interesting, but the one I’m gonna mention arc. [01:03:12] Yeah. I, I think that like you still to sign up it’s it’s like, it’s like browser.company, I think is the website. Um, but I think, um, or no, it’s the browser.company I think. Um, you have to get on a waiting list for it. Um, but, uh, I I’m a fan. The one I’m gonna talk about is Orion, which I don’t know if I’ve mentioned before. [01:03:32] I think I might have so Orion. [01:03:35] Jeff: but I, I [01:03:35] Christina: So Orion’s in public beta now. So you don’t have to sign up on, on a form like you used to. It is interesting because it is using WebKit under the hood. So this is a Mac app, so it’s using WebKit under the hood, but they have it so that it’s working with most Chrome extensions and, um, also making some other changes in niceties and things that frankly Safari doesn’t do. [01:03:57] So there’s, it’s kind of like, in [01:04:00] some ways, if I think of this, we’re able to be maintained well, it’s kind of the best of both worlds because you get the performance and like the battery impact and, and resource stuff of Safari, but all the stuff that you can’t get with Safari, you know, like, the extension situation and , some other, you know, kind of like niceties and the, the developer tools I think are, yeah I mean, they’re basically crumbs, but they’re, uh, you know, but at this point, safari are basically crumbs too. So it’s from a company called Kagi or Kagi. [01:04:29] Brett: Kagi. Old school company [01:04:31] Christina: no, no. That company went, that company went outta business. They bought the domain. Yeah. Yeah. So that company, that company is gone and, and this is a new guy. [01:04:41] He was somebody who he sold something and got money off of it. His, I think the whole play on this is there’s gonna be like a paid search engine, which is supposed to be like privacy focused. I have no idea, but, um, you know, I’m not really necessarily gonna be into paying $10 a month for, for a search engine. [01:04:57] Google has all my information anyway, but [01:05:00] the browser is definitely worth checking out. Uh, it doesn’t work super well with 1Password, um, which is frustrating. So I can’t, I would never use it as a daily driver, but I think that it’s one that I definitely think is worth checking out. And I’ll say this, even if it’s not something that you wanna use, like all the time. [01:05:15] I’m glad that we’re seeing people like playing around with and having new takes on browsers again. And it’s nice to see an actual WebKit derived one rather than just a [01:05:24] Brett: Yeah, right. Does another Chromium browser. [01:05:27] Christina: right. [01:05:28] Jeff: Awesome. That’s cool. That sounds fun to play with. Um, mine is, uh, this app. I don’t know if it’s pronounced Anki or Anki it’s A N K I it’s a flashcards app. It’s like a [01:05:41] Christina: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:05:42] Jeff: around forever and, and it looks like it. I mean, like it’s, it’s one of those things that’s just stayed steady. [01:05:48] The design hasn’t changed. I mean, you can do things to create themes and whatnot. I’ve been using it. It just does a really nice job of helping you create a hierarchy of cards in, in real [01:06:00] time as you’re doing the flashcards. Um, and just a wonderful job of guiding you and just kind of bite size study. [01:06:07] And there’s tons of flashcard sets that exist or decks that exist already out there. Anyway, I had used it years ago. I use it just to like, keep certain commands that are like just outside my everyday use, fresh in my head. Cause it’s kind of fun for me. Um, I’ve been doing it with Git actually, cause there’s so many weird ass Git commands that you never use. [01:06:28] And I just like being aware of them, but anyway, I’ve been using it to build up some decks or some stuff I’m trying to know better. And, and it’s awesome. And it’s also in terms of the community that uses this thing. It’s such a fucking crazy, peak into the world of medical school because it’s primarily like has a user base of medical students and those people are fucking bananas and the ways in which they use this thing, like there’s a, , there’s one, repo that helps you use your Nintendo Switch controllers, your [01:07:00] Joycons to like zip through your flashcards. [01:07:03] And like, I don’t even understand what they’re doing, cuz it’s just like, so beyond my use case. So there’s just like this really like nutty community of mostly medical students and that alone is just kind of fun to figure out how deep into that shit they have to [01:07:19] Brett: can I get flashcards on my Oculus? Cuz I would do that [01:07:22] Jeff: know what, um, that is a great idea for the Oculus. I also, my kids bought an Oculus and I was thinking how great it would be to build a memory palace in an Oculus. Um, you know, like, and there’s one app that kind of does it, [01:07:36] Brett: there’s an app. You can mirror a windows, desktop to Oculus and use your computer in a virtual space, which I love the idea of, I just needed to be for Mac and that doesn’t exist. [01:07:50] Christina: no, [01:07:50] Jeff: you can do it with Firefox though. You can, which is different, but like Firefox has a little bit of an environment that’s just beyond the browser that you can play with, but I haven’t tried it yet. [01:08:00] So [01:08:00] Brett: Anyway, sorry, sorry. Sorry to hijack your, [01:08:03] Jeff: that’s not hijacking shit. [01:08:05] Christina: No, I love this. Uh, also the, I will hijack slightly, but we should maybe talk about this more. I bought a, I bought a Oculus Quest 2, [01:08:12] Jeff: Oh, you have one too. We just did [01:08:13] Christina: Yeah. So I, I got it before the price went up and so [01:08:16] Jeff: Yep. Same. [01:08:16] Christina: so, so, so, so, so, okay. So, alright. So this is a future topic. All three of us need to talk about, about our experiences, uh, with the, with the metaverse since, um, we bought into it before the price went up. [01:08:27] Brett: have you guys found sky box yet? [01:08:29] Jeff: Not yet. [01:08:30] Brett: Plex for [01:08:31] Christina: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:08:32] Brett: Any, any movie file you have on your Mac? You can play to your Oculus without any special connectors or. [01:08:40] Jeff: not as satisfying as you want. The first thing I did in the Oculus Quest 2, was pull up Netflix and watch a Richard Pryor performance. [01:08:47] Brett: watching Netflix on my Oculus [01:08:49] Jeff: did not like it. I thought it would be the best thing in the world. Yeah. [01:08:52] Brett: Oh my God. I [01:08:53] love it. I would [01:08:54] Jeff: just have an [01:08:55] Brett: yeah, we should have an Oculus episode. [01:08:56] Jeff: we’ll meet in the, in the metaverse.[01:09:00] [01:09:00] Brett: This, episode title will be not the Oculus episode. Um, Anki man, I remember Anki from, someone asked me to incorporate it with some piece of software. I wrote like 10 years ago. It’s been around for a while effective though. [01:09:19] Jeff: Yeah. There’s definitely room for Terpstra. Yes-anding in it for sure. all right, everybody, you all [01:09:27] get some [01:09:27] Brett: call it. [01:09:28] Christina: We should definitely [01:09:29] Brett: Yeah, you get some sleep. [01:09:30] Jeff: Bye. [01:09:31] Christina: Bye. [01:09:37] Jeff: Hey, there are good people before you go. We have a bunch of new places where you can interact with us. Please check out our Instagram feed, our YouTube channel Twitter, of course, and sign up for the Overtired newsletter, which will sort of pick up where the show leaves off with expanded show notes. Uh, a little bit of what the three of us get up [01:10:00] to between episodes and let’s face it. [01:10:02] There’ll be some musing. How can you resist musings? You’ll find details for all the ways to interact with us in the show notes and at overtired pod dot com . And And thank you. Thank you. Thank you as always for listening.

Is there any such thing as a neurotypical? Our intrepid hosts discuss. Conversation styles, quality of presence, plus finding a therapist, tracking GitHub stars, and how to build the ultimate Markdown editor. Show Links It’s All All Gone Pete Tong Psychology Today Therapist Directory K.Flay — Inside Voices/Outside Voices (Spotify, Apple Music) I’m Glad My Mom Died LaunchBar (or Alfred, Raycast, what have you) Astral Little Star Canva Byword My Ultimate Markdown Editor Wishlist Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript That Particular Monster [00:00:00] Christina: [00:00:02] You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren and I am joined as always by Jeff Severns Guntzel and Brett Terpstra guys. How are you? [00:00:14] Jeff: Hido hi, episode 2 95. [00:00:16] New Teeth? [00:00:16] Brett: I got new teeth. You? Nope. Okay. So our listeners, we don’t, we’re not doing video, but for the last year I had the four teeth in the bottom, right back of my mouth got pulled. So I haven’t been able to chew on the right side of my mouth for [00:00:32] Christina: Oh, wow. [00:00:33] Brett: Um, and I just got used to it. I, I got used to having all that extra space from my tongue. [00:00:38] Uh, and you, you, your, your brain just accommodates, you know, you just start chewing with one side of your mouth. So now I have to like force myself to chew, but they put these teeth in, I got this bridge, this implant, and for, for people listening, I just like pulled my cheek back and [00:00:54] Jeff: no, you did like the old comedy, like fish hook and the [00:00:56] Brett: Yep. [00:00:57] Yeah. And, and the teeth [00:01:00] they put in this implant, they put in is bigger than the teeth that were taken out. Um, I don’t know if you can see, but it comes in like almost a quarter inch further than the normal teeth [00:01:13] Jeff: oh, jeez. [00:01:14] Christina: Ooh, weird. So, okay. Now was that an accident or is that just like how they work or like. [00:01:20] Brett: I complained about it and they explained to me that because of the way, cuz there’s two, uh, like whatever, screw posts, whatever they’re called implants, I guess. Um, and the way that they have to create a bridge that spans across these two posts, it has to be in a straight line instead of curved the way a, a set of teeth normally would be. [00:01:42] Um, so I guess it’s unavoidable. I’m gonna give it a couple weeks and if it, if I can’t stop biting my tongue, like I I’m having to retrain the way I speak. Um, I’m, I, I, I tend to li [00:02:00] now if I’m not paying close attention, because my tongue is kind of like jammed towards the center of my mouth and it’s, it’s nice to be able to chew on the right side of my mouth. [00:02:10] But honestly, I, I kind of miss not having teeth there at this point. , I’m getting, uh, as the days go by, I’ve only had ’em for two days. So I feel like I’m getting more used to them every day. Uh, we’ll see. Maybe I’ll just, maybe my brain will just adjust to this. No reality. Now, [00:02:29] Christina: I think it probably eventually will. Um, they might have to do a thing where like they shave some of it down or whatever. I don’t know. [00:02:36] Brett: if that’s an option, I’m all for [00:02:38] Christina: I mean, they might be able to, I’m just, I, the reason I’m saying this is like, I know that they can shave regular teeth down, so I don’t understand why they couldn’t shave like an implant or something. [00:02:44] Brett: Yeah. We’ll see what, [00:02:47] Jeff: I went to the dentist for a crown and they gave me a 3d print of my teeth. [00:02:51] Brett: oh, geez. What are you gonna do with ’em Halloween’s coming up. [00:02:55] Christina: That is cool. [00:02:56] Jeff: Well, my fucking family’s sick of seeing them. Uh, I had it on [00:03:00] my bedside table for a while. [00:03:02] Christina: Oh [00:03:02] Brett: my family’s like my family’s like that with the gallstones I got taken [00:03:06] Christina: your wife is like, you put that in the house first. You get that off the bedside table. [00:03:12] Jeff: it’s fascinating to look at. You never see it’s like a for, for those again, for this visual episode where retired, I have a full 3d printed version of my mouth and, uh, and I can just look at it and it’s like looking at me, uh, or at least part of me. And it’s like, where I know there’s bigger gaps in my teeth. [00:03:29] I can locate him on the side. And like, it’s just amazing [00:03:32] Brett: do you look at it while you’re flossing? So you can [00:03:35] Jeff: Well, no, but it’s actually facing me. I I’m looking at it. It’s up on top of my monitor on a little tray. So they they’re staring at me all the time. [00:03:43] Brett: So one of the benefits I was looking forward to with this whole quarter of my mouth being fake now was that I can’t get cavities there. What I didn’t realize is with a bridge like this, you have to floss underneath it. [00:04:00] So it’s not that I have a core of my mouth being, uh, like maintenance free it’s that I have a quarter of my mouth that requires different maintenance than the rest of my mouth, which I’m pretty disappointed about. [00:04:12] Jeff: What is that? You bring the floss back to the back and you go under the teeth. [00:04:16] Brett: there’s two posts in it. So you can’t just like scoop under it. Uh, you get this thing called, I think it’s called a bridge thread. And it’s like, it’s just a wire and you have to like get it between and around the post and like poke through at the bottom of your teeth [00:04:33] Jeff: Wow. [00:04:34] Brett: instead of going between the teeth, cuz it’s one solid piece. [00:04:36] So you can’t just like floss down and into it. You have to dig underneath it. And I’m not excited about that. [00:04:43] Jeff: A, uh, a, a elderly British friend of mine told me that it used to be custom on the island, uh, for a wedding gift in rural parts of the country to give the husband or the husband and the wife, uh, to give them, uh, fake [00:05:00] teeth for their wedding, present a set of full set, full set of [00:05:04] Brett: planning for the future. [00:05:05] Jeff: I guess. So I don’t understand it. [00:05:08] I didn’t fact check it. This lady’s generally very reliable, [00:05:12] Brett: everyone should have at least one elderly British friend. [00:05:15] Jeff: mm, this is the best. [00:05:16] Brett: Everyone should have at least two Austrian mates. Sorry. That’s a reference to a movie that neither of you will ever see, but it’s all gone. Pete Tong is a fucking classic and everyone should watch it. At least once [00:05:29] Christina: Okay. [00:05:30] Jeff: all right. [00:05:30] Brett: I’m adding, it’s been in here before, but I’m adding Pete Tong to our show notes right now, [00:05:35] Jeff: Okay. He is. Can you hear him clicking? He’s not bullshitting. [00:05:38] Brett: all gone Pete to such a good movie. [00:05:41] Jeff: Spelled like it sounds, [00:05:42] Brett: It’s a great movie. I’m telling you His girlfriend, his girlfriend tells him he should maybe write a book about his life and he says, oh yeah, that’s brilliant. Wait, that’s a lot, maybe a pamphlet or a brochure. I get that. I, I feel you all right. [00:05:59] Mental Health Corner [00:05:59] Brett: Should we do some mental.[00:06:00] [00:06:00] Jeff: I guess so. [00:06:01] Brett: Feel like we segued [00:06:02] Christina: I, I, I think, I definitely think we segued into it. [00:06:05] Brett: Who’s up first. [00:06:08] Christina: go first. Uh, because mine is not massive. I, uh, so I mentioned this ironically in an Adri last week that I’ve been like having some indigestion and I, I think I have an ulcer is basically what I think it is. And so this isn’t really mental health per se, but it is like my health, which affects my mental health. [00:06:27] So, so like the last few weeks, this has been a weird thing where I’ve never really had this where I have like, um, like really bad, like all day, like indigestion. So how it started was I’d been at a friend’s house. I hadn’t had much to eat that day. I ate some stuff. I had some wine and then I woke up like eight hours later and I threw up and, but I didn’t throw up, you know, because I was like drunk or anything. [00:06:52] Like it was. That thing where sometimes I don’t know if you’ve ever, either of you ever had this, but sometimes you do get like indigestion where like all [00:07:00] of a sudden you wake up and like, your mouth is full of saliva. And you’re like, I have to throw up because there’s gas or something in my stomach and that happened. [00:07:09] But then it continued to happen for like three more days and I really couldn’t eat anything. I couldn’t keep anything down. I just felt terrible. And I felt like, you know, it was like, like lower than normal indigestion, but not like a stomach ache. And it’s, it’s continued and it got better, but now it’s like worse. [00:07:26] Like I’ve had a lot of Tums I’ve been taking like over the counter things and whatnot, but, um, and things were better. I had one instance at my parents’ house for one day, but, um, then it, uh, was, was better after I was, I was taking some like, uh, some Pepsi or something, but I ran outta pep, so I have to get more pep and it’s like back and it is. [00:07:47] Not great. Like, I, I, I I’ve forgotten, like, it’s been a while since I’ve had any sort of like physical health problem, almost all my problems have been like hidden. So I, you know, like mental and, and so [00:08:00] I’m like, God damn, this sucks. So I’m gonna have to find a, a, a gastro, um, to, to go to and like get checked out. [00:08:07] But it’s one of those things that, that can make you tired and like, make you not feel good. Like otherwise when like your body like, feels like it’s, you know, [00:08:15] Brett: Right. And, and I think, I think that’s under underrecognized is that chronic pain of any kind, even short term has a major effect on, because it affects your sleep. It affects your diet, it affects your overall pain level, uh, which all affects your mental health. And that absolutely is a valid part of the mental health corner. [00:08:37] Uh, any kind people who are like, uh, deal with like extensive chronic pain or chronic fatigue. Yeah. That’s that takes a real toll on the mental health. [00:08:48] Christina: Yeah, no, and, and it, it, it doesn’t like, and obviously mine is, is, is very minor compared to those things, but it does. But I think that that’s a great point, Brad, and that, that I think was what it kind of got me thinking about, which is that a lot of times, [00:09:00] I do think sometimes like, if you’re your other health is not good, then that’s going to make everything else better worse. [00:09:07] And, and I think on the flip side, right, like they’re almost, they’re these terrible self, like fulfilling things is that if you have like, your mental health is not good, then you’re less likely to take care of your physical health. And like, it’s this, it’s this terrible, like self perpetuating motion [00:09:21] Brett: Yeah. And may maybe even vice versa. [00:09:23] Christina: Yeah, exactly. So that’s [00:09:25] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Um, So I had, I had, I had, I had an additional thought for this and I lost it. I lost it because I was working really hard to actively pay attention to what you were saying, which is a problem I have, like, I will start thinking about my response and the, the person I’m talking to will continue on with their story. [00:09:47] But meanwhile, I got stuck on this, this part I wanted to respond to and I missed. And when I edit our podcast, I always realized that I’ve done that. Like you’ve gone on, you’ve gone on and shared something important, [00:10:00] relevant, uh, noteworthy. But I got stuck on something. You said like two minutes earlier. [00:10:06] And that’s what I respond to when I like derail the conversation. And it drives me nuts to hear like my own habits when I’m, when I’m editing this show. So I apologize for all the times I’ve done that and probably will do it in the future. [00:10:19] Christina: Hey, that’s okay. I mean, I, I, I actually, I, for one, like, appreciate the, uh, the self-awareness there because I think most of us probably do that. I think that’s one of those truisms. Um, again, I, last week I quoted something from, um, invisible monsters, my, one of my favorite books, which has not aged particularly well in certain aspects, but I still love it, uh, where, like, you know, the postcards they send out, which are, are, again, these, these sort of trite things, but, but some of them are, are good. [00:10:45] Like one of my favorite quotes, but there’s one where it’s like people, you know, ask you how your day is so that they can tell you about theirs. [00:10:52] Brett: Yeah, [00:10:53] Christina: And there’s, there is a certain truth to that. I think where a lot of times we are thinking about our responses and our own things, or waiting to say our next thing and not [00:11:00] always like active listening. [00:11:01] This is my short, my, my long-winded sorry, this is my long-winded way of saying that yes, active listening can be difficult, but it’s especially difficult when you’re trying to think about what you said next. Did you, did you remember what you were gonna say? [00:11:12] Brett: No, but I saw, I saw, uh, an Instagram meme the other day that, that basically, uh, to paraphrase the conversation between neuro two neuro divergent people is basically just a series of that reminds me of the time where none of it relates to the story. The person just told, it’s just like a constant, like, well, that reminds me of, and I’m like, yeah, that is, that’s how I actually prefer to converse. [00:11:38] I feel like there’s a lot of, there’s a lot communicated when you share personal stories and some people feel, they look at that as like, oh, you’re making it all about you, but actually that’s how I relate to what you’re saying. It’s I find a connection that I can latch onto. And if my connection. Offend you [00:12:00] or it’s wrong, then I want to hear why your experience is different. [00:12:04] Like that’s, I put it out there for the purpose of like, trying to communicate, it’s my way of saying, is this what you mean? Um, and, and some people don’t deal with that. Some people like L my girlfriend, um, have learned to communicate with me in that way, uh, to hear it the way that, I mean it, uh, but, but yeah, when you’re, when you’re talking to a neurotypical that can, that can sometimes not go so well. [00:12:29] Christina: Yeah. Although I think that most neurotypical people are like that too. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, like, I I’m I’m at this point now, I don’t know if anybody is neurotypical to be completely [00:12:37] Jeff: Yeah, I was gonna say, I don’t know if I even believe in the, the, that particular monster. [00:12:42] Christina: yeah, because I think that most people, uh, are, are that way. And I, I think that what you just described, if anything, I would actually describe that as a fairly common response to say that you relate to people by being able to, you know, make comparisons in your own experiences and. [00:12:58] Brett: if that’s true. I don’t know if [00:13:00] that’s true. I can’t prove it either way. All I know is what’s true for me and, and it’s true for me, so, [00:13:05] Christina: that that’s, I think that that’s true for me largely is not universally true, but like, I think that a lot of times, like one of my first instincts, especially when talking to people is to try to find a thing I can relate to if only, not so much for myself, but, but oftentimes for them to be like, oh, you know, I, I, I know what you’re saying. [00:13:22] I have empathy or whatever. Right. Like, whereas I would think that if I, I think that, so again, like, I, I, I think terms like neurotypical and a neurotypical are, are not necessarily even helpful at this point. But, um, but I do wonder like, if, if, if you were going to go on that spectrum, I think that if people who have a hard time with empathy, that might not be a thing that might even be aware of, if that makes any sense where they could even make that connection of this is similar to this thing with. [00:13:54] Brett: So maybe, and, and maybe your life is similar to mine in that you [00:14:00] have attracted and curated people in your life who can relate to you in those ways. Um, there is a world out there that was designed by neurotypicals. Um, that is why those of us who are neuro divergent often have trouble. I mean, it’s, it’s what makes us, it’s what makes school hard for us? [00:14:24] It’s what makes work hard for us. We have extra challenges because this neurotypical world was not designed for us. Um, and this is especially true with like autism, but, but ADHD, for sure. Um, like there, there, those people do exist though. [00:14:42] Christina: oh, no, I know they do. I, I, I [00:14:43] Brett: we self-select out of those [00:14:45] Christina: Well, no, and I know they exist. I’m not trying to say that. What I’m saying is my experiences, and this is why I, I, I guess I am neuro diversion, but I’ve never identified that way because for most of my life and, and even now, like I could I’ve existed [00:15:00] in, in primarily neurotypical spaces where I’ve worked with a lot of neuro diversion people, obviously, but I’ve also been in very neurotypical spaces that are very common and like excelled in those spaces. [00:15:11] Right? Like, like I think I have, [00:15:13] Brett: at masking. [00:15:14] Christina: well, not just masking, but I think I’m actually good to be completely honest. I think I’m good at understanding social cues and social scenarios, regardless of what person I’m with. I don’t think that’s masking. I think that’s like, if anything, like, I, I just understand instantly what the social dynamic of something is. [00:15:30] Brett: You info dump though, which is not a neurotypical thing. That is an atypical thing to [00:15:38] Christina: Oh, sure. [00:15:39] Brett: you know, something about something it’s a it’s and in your case, like, you know, so much about so many things, like someone hits a topic, you know about, and you will dump, you will, you will info dump and, and it can make neurotypical people uncomfortable. [00:15:54] It can make ADHD, people like me lose focus, but, [00:15:58] Christina: good. No, totally. No, no. And [00:16:00] I’m again, like I’m not, I’m not claiming that I’m like not normal. So what I’m saying is [00:16:03] Brett: and I’m not claiming to give you therapy. [00:16:05] Christina: well, I’m, I’m just saying like, in these, in these situations, like I think what you were describing as trying to find like similarities, I actually think that’s a fairly common neuro neurotypical skill to try to find common commonalities. [00:16:18] Brett: So there’s this line. We can, we, we won’t drive this into the ground, but there’s a difference, like for me, someone will tell me a meaningful story. And instead of me, I believe the neurotypical response would just be to say, I hear you. That’s, that’s really rough, or that’s really meaningful in its way. [00:16:41] And my response instead is to say, yeah, one time when I was, you know, 25, this happened to me and it’s not, uh, just in a pure, conversational, uh, as a gambit, it doesn’t really indicate, [00:17:00] necessarily understanding, especially if what I say isn’t. Obviously correlated. Uh, I found people like Jeff here. Uh, they hear me do that and he rolls with it. [00:17:15] Like I think he understands, I think he speaks the way I do. Uh, but people like my mother, uh, will, will worry that I’m making the conversation about me when they just told me something that was meaningful to them. And my way of acknowledging that it was meaningful was to find a personal story that relates. [00:17:35] But, uh, but for my mom, it, and if anyone’s neurotypical, it’s my mother. And that’s why like, life has been rough. Uh, cuz she does not understand like what I go through and uh, and, and she sees it as me making it about. [00:17:51] Christina: Yeah. Okay. I can understand. I can actually see both of those things and I guess, yeah, this is, this would be the difference. I think that, I guess [00:18:00] I, I, I, I think that most people do actually act like you, nor even people like your mother, where they would in their mind find a similar situation. They might not share it at that moment because that might not be the right response. [00:18:15] If that makes sense. [00:18:17] Brett: Yes, I appreciate that. You think, you know how neurotypical people [00:18:21] Christina: Well, I I’ve spent a [00:18:22] Brett: as neurotypical? [00:18:23] Christina: I mean, I’m not neurotypical, but I’ve, but I’ve been around enough neurotypical people and I’ve, I’ve. I do feel like I understand how neurotypical people act, cuz I’ve been, that’s been my primary existence. Like my, my, my family is completely neurotypical, so, so I know, I know the response [00:18:39] Brett: up against it. Yeah. [00:18:40] Christina: Yeah. And, and, and I don’t like, I know I’m, I’m neuro diversion, but I’m, but I’m like, but I, I understand that this is what I’m trying to say. Like, I understand the social scenario where if you say what you’re feeling, how they’re going to react and why they would react that way. I also completely understand why they would react that way.[00:19:00] [00:19:00] Brett: and to be fair, like I can get along fine at a party these days less. So when I was younger, but yeah, I’ve gotten really good at existing in a more neurotypical, typical space. I’m not like handicapped. It’s not like everything I do comes across as like, uh, disabled in any way. Like I can be social. [00:19:21] I can be well liked. Um, I can, I can even have deep conversations with people that aren’t like me. So it’s, I’m not saying it’s not possible. Um, it’s just, there are differences in the way we naturally communicate. [00:19:35] Christina: Yeah, I guess all I was gonna say, and this will be my final thing, and we’ve gone way too long on this and you can edit out any, you can edit out any or most of [00:19:42] Brett: Nope. It all stays. [00:19:43] Christina: uh, is I think that most people, this is what I was going say. Maybe not for the reasons that you do, but I think that most people do cuz this is a truism and this is like a known like, like truism or afro. Right? This is, this is one of those things, which is that. Usually the [00:20:00] whole time someone else is talking, people are waiting and thinking about what they wanna say rather than listening to the next thing to say, like that is a truism and that is a, that is a neurotypical truism. [00:20:09] So that’s all I was gonna say is that many people I think are, are thinking about their own experiences or their own relation thing while someone else is talking, they might not share that the way you did, but most people aren’t actively listening. [00:20:21] Brett: And this will be the last thing I say on the topic, cuz yeah, it’s gone on. But um, that, that is probably one of those things that everyone can relate to. Every, everybody like has that for ADHD people in particular, it’s hard to, uh, circumvent that it’s hard to, it’s hard to bring yourself back. Um, I think it’s harder for ADHD people to, uh, to like see that that’s happening and, and do something about it. [00:20:54] Anyway, Jeff, how’s your mental health? [00:20:58] Jeff: Well, I it’s [00:21:00] interesting cuz I, uh, my mental health is, is it is what it is, but I’ve, I’ve really been thinking a lot about, um, the quality of presence. And um, thinking about that again, as you’re talking, uh, for me, quality of presence in the sense of like, I’ve just, I’ve done a lot of it over recent years, COVID excluded. [00:21:23] Um, I’ve done some experimenting with myself in social situations where, um, where I actually. You know, work to not do the thing where that you’re describing, which is like, oh, that makes me think of a story, cuz I really, I actually quite love like story trading and I think that in certain relationships I have, that’s a norm and it’s, and it’s just lovely. [00:21:48] Um, and I’ve found in many, many other situations that, um, I think I’m hitting the mark and I’ve probably missed it. And, and in missing it, my quality of presence [00:22:00] has, has degraded significantly in that conversation. And, um, and so I’ve experimented with kind of letting stories just end without me having, um, something to share about it, but in finding some meaningful and natural way to sort of mirror or, or just register that I’m, I’ve taken this in. [00:22:22] Um, and I, and whatever, whatever sort of appropriate level of, of indicating, you know, I, I feel that the gravity of this or the hilarity of this or whatever it is, um, I actually, for me, the reason that’s difficult is because I, I am like, it’s like in my DNA, on my dad’s side, like. I get antsy in silences. Um, my dad and my grandmother, his mother always did. [00:22:50] And, and always does, um, make sounds in silence whistle or Hmm. Or my, my grandma used to always go, oh, golly. [00:23:00] You know, like in any fucking silence, right. Including in really serious conversations when the silence felt meaningful, right. Like generative. Um, and so I , I learned this incredible lesson when I was working with my reporting partner, Samara Freemark for, um, American public media on a project. [00:23:19] And we were interviewing a bunch of veterans. She was holding the, um, the shotgun mic, uh, because she could actually hold it without moving her fingers constantly and causing the audio to be completely terrible. And I was doing a lot of the question asking in the beginning of our, um, of our project. And after like one interview, she’s like gun. [00:23:44] You do not leave any silence. Like you have to learn to just pause and see what happens. I’m like, okay, I’m in. I’m in, well, what do we do? And she’s like, I’m holding the microphone, which is always like very close to the source. Right. She’s like, after you ask a [00:24:00] question or after an answer, seems like it’s done, I’m gonna raise my finger. [00:24:05] And until my finger goes back down, you’re not gonna say anything. I’m like, got it. Right. Like, awesome. And it was incredible. Like what I learned about, about gathering stories and, and what can happen when you actually, this is like classic. Like we would, you believe I’m a CIS white male, um, that when you actually leave space, um, what can happen even though it’s initially awkward? [00:24:29] Is actually like transformative and, and magical, and actually does leave room for that person who just finished a story to go somewhere entirely different and that applies to conversations. Um, and so I’ve really tried and I’m not always good at it, but I really try to just leave space after someone tells me something, even though it triggers. [00:24:47] And I really want to tell ’em this fucking story, cause this such a good story and they’ll know a little bit more about me and like, you know, whatever else, like, um, I’m really practicing that kind of quality of presence. So anyway, I was already gonna talk about quality of [00:25:00] presence, but what you both were talking about really raised that for me. [00:25:04] And so I’m, I’m really just, I’m answering the question. How is my mental health by just saying that like, I. Thinking a lot about quality of presence and the ways in which my quality of presence can, can be degraded. Um, the ways in which I may feel it’s good and it’s actually not good. Is this really funny story from when, uh, my wife was pregnant with our first son, we were living in New York and we went to a, uh, we were part of a, a group, like a, a group of people that were about to have babies. [00:25:32] Right. It was like a parent. Fucking club or whatever. And we were learning different lessons about, you know, the actual birthing process. And they did this thing where it was all men and women. It was all like straight couples where, um, the women were supposed to kind of just sit in a chair and the men were supposed to come behind them and, and put their hand on their back. [00:25:51] And just, and just the, the instructions were just to be like, as loving and supportive, as you can, like send all that loving and supportive [00:26:00] energy through your hand, into their back. And we did the exercise and when it was done, it was time for the women in the group to share out. And one, after another they’re like, felt really oppressive. So, you know, we’re all going, like support, love, light babies, you know, and they’re just like, fuck, get this hand off of me. And that taught me a lot and I continue learning about quality of presence. So that’s my answer. [00:26:25] On Interrupting Women [00:26:25] Brett: I will say it was really hard for me to not interrupt you while you were talking, uh, to talk about how common it is for ADHD people to interrupt in a conversation. Um, And I’m like, I would just be illustrating the point and my conversation with Christina before you went Jeff, like I interrupted her so many times because I couldn’t like not say what was on my mind. [00:26:50] Um, and, and I feel like shit about that. And, and honestly, it is easier for me to interrupt women than it is men. And that sucks. Like it [00:27:00] it’s like I [00:27:00] Christina: That does suck. That is shitty. Honestly, that’s really fucked [00:27:04] Brett: really is. And I’ve noticed this about myself. Like if I have something I think is important to say, I’m willing to cut a woman off where I will give a guy a little more time to finish his, his speech. [00:27:18] And like, at least that’s what it seems to me in, in anecdotal situations. Like, and it’s something that I, I work on. Um, but, uh, it is a common trait for ADHD people to interrupt. And, and that is something that I could really use someone holding up their finger. And just like, just that signal would be like, okay, all right. [00:27:42] Back down. We’re we’re just gonna keep listening. Um, maybe what I have to say right now might not even be relevant by the time they finish talking and that’s okay. Like, I need to learn to deal with [00:27:54] Jeff: Well, and in the case of what you’re describing of interrupting women, more than men like to, to have [00:28:00] a bigger finger, um, that, that is up for longer, um, in those cases, I mean, that is something I think it’s really important. You’ve got that self-awareness and I think you just figure out like what, it’s just what you do on your computer, right? [00:28:12] Like what’s the hack, what can I do to make sure that, um, and it, and I don’t, I have no shame in having to like, mechanize me, shutting the fuck up, like, you know, the idea of that finger or whatever else, like, because what happens is it quickly feels like something other than mechanized, it just feels like spaciousness, you know? [00:28:34] And you know, , that’s the biggest thing in the world. Right? [00:28:39] Brett: Suddenly, I feel physically bad now about admitting that I cut women off in conversation, I’m gonna leave it in the podcast because it’s fucking true. Like, it’s just, it’s true. But I feel, I feel physically bad now. Um, [00:28:56] Christina: I’m sorry, you feel physically bad, but I’m glad that you admitted that. Right? Like I think that that’s [00:29:00] cuz honestly, like it’s one of those things, like I think that it’s a good thing to kind of like be aware of. Right. Like I [00:29:04] Brett: oh [00:29:05] Christina: that, you know, like, like I’m glad that you have that self-awareness to at least even say that, like, I think that’s really good. [00:29:11] Brett: How am I ever gonna fix it? If I don’t acknowledge. [00:29:14] Christina: Well, that’s exactly it. And which I think goes to what, what Jeff was saying, which is like, I think, and I’ve done something similar to Jeff, um, where I’ve also like tried to be more present. So I really appreciate what you were saying about that, because that encourages me to continue to do that because I, I, with, I think that silences can be beautiful, but like you, I also kind of have a hard time, like letting things be that way. [00:29:37] Um, but like, but, but I think what Jeff was was saying, and, and this is my, maybe me completely undoing. What I was just proclaiming to do is I think applicable to even like what you were saying, Brad, about like you, you noticed that you are more open to interrupting women. Like you’re aware of these things. [00:29:57] And if you can be conscious of it, [00:30:00] even if it’s hard and even if it takes time, even if you don’t have that, that physical cue of the hand going up, you can make changes in your behavior. Right. And then those BA, and then those changes, the more you do them, the more common, like the more, the easier it is to continue to do them. [00:30:17] And the more they become habits. So, you know, just like, yes, it’s, it’s harder for ADHD people, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And it doesn’t mean that, that, like, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like, like our, our, our, our, our mental, um, you know, challenges are, are, are not like crutches. They’re not excuses for us to act certain ways. [00:30:38] They’re just not. So if that’s something you really wanna change, you can take the steps, which starts with acknowledging what happens to recognize it. And then, you know, think about it. Not feel actively bad, but to be like, okay, well, in the future, I’m going to be aware of this and stop myself when, when I, when I even, even if I, since it’s happening, stop myself, when I start to do it [00:31:00] so that, you know, the habit becomes something that you just do. [00:31:03] Brett: Sure. Yeah. And, and, and I’ve been aware of this for a little while now. It’s I feel physically bad. Having publicly admitted it to thousands of people. , that’s just, that’s a, that’s a, you know, I’ll be, I’ll be very aware of it now. Um, so. So guess what? Uh, after, after months of talking about how I needed to find a therapist, I found a therapist. [00:31:30] You Need a Therapist [00:31:30] Jeff: Woo. [00:31:31] Christina: Woohoo. [00:31:31] Brett: first session a couple days ago. Um, like we, we did a meet and greet, uh, just kind of like an interview is this guy didn’t work for me. And, and I wasn’t sure, like he checked all the boxes, all the questions I had lined up. Uh, he had answers that were satisfactory. At the end of a little like 20 minute, uh, let’s just, let’s just chat kind of thing. [00:31:57] I didn’t feel like he was smarter than me [00:32:00] and I really want someone smarter than me that can call me on bullshit. Um, cuz I’m, I’m a, I’m, I’m a smart guy. I’m also an addict. I’m very adept at deception and uh, in manipulation for sure. And like I need someone smart enough to just be like, Nope, that’s not right. [00:32:22] That’s not true. What do you actually think about this? What are you actually feeling? What actually happened in that situation? And, and I wasn’t sure he could be that guy for me. Um, and I didn’t know if I wanted a male or a female therapist, so I, I put unspecified when I did the psychology today, search, um, But this guy came up and, and he has experience with religious trauma. [00:32:50] He has experience with addiction. He has experience with bipolar and ADHD. And during our first session, he, like, he explained things about my bipolar [00:33:00] specifically. Like he listened to, um, me explain what my like, manic episodes were like and everything. And he was able to tell me things about my condition that I didn’t know before and that I double check to verify. [00:33:15] And he knows what he’s talking about. It was, it was impressive. Um, he’s worked with, uh, with, uh, alcohol abuse and, and at like, uh, dual diagnosis clinic, um, in Minnesota. And, uh, he’s, he. He’s worked with seven day Adventists and some, some cult members that needed deconversion and yeah, so like he, he like, he immediately, when I talked about, um, my fundamentalist upbringing and he, without prompting was like, that’s abuse, you were abused. [00:33:56] And I’m like, I needed to hear that from him. I needed a [00:34:00] therapist who understood that while outwardly appearing like a, leave it to beaver Cleaver home, my upbringing was terrifying. Um, and I wasn’t physically abused in any way. It wasn’t sexually abused, but I was emotionally abused and, and it affects me to this day. [00:34:21] And, and I feel like this guy, I feel like he hit all the right buttons. Um, I, I. I’m no longer concerned about his intelligence level. He’s, he’s a smart enough guy. He’s at least as smart as I am. Maybe not smarter, but he’s, he’s smart enough. And I feel like this is gonna work. So I signed up to do weekly sessions for the next six weeks and we’ll see how things go. [00:34:47] It’ll be the first time I’ve actually given therapy a chance. [00:34:51] Christina: I’m I’m so, I’m so glad to hear that. And I’m so glad, like you gave him a second chance and that you didn’t just go on that kind of like initial gut feeling of, you know, he’s not [00:35:00] smart enough. [00:35:01] Brett: Right? Well, I realized like I could probably shoot down therapists for the rest of time. [00:35:06] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, you’re probably not gonna find a therapist who smart than you to be completely honest. [00:35:12] Brett: Well, and, and, and the thing is like, that’s a very subjective, like, no one’s sharing their IQ scores with me. And I don’t even know how much faith I put in the idea of a, of an IQ test. Like what he, he met all the requirements on paper that I could think of that I could possibly come up with. And this idea of like, is he smarter than me? [00:35:36] It’s subjective. And I could use that to shoot down anybody. So I had to ignore that one and just accept that he met all the other requirements and give him a shot. And yeah, I think it’s gonna work out [00:35:48] Jeff: For me, it’s not, it’s not smart. I mean, like generally speaking. Important that somebody be smart and, you know, a little wise even, right. Um, or w but clear eye is [00:36:00] actually what, for me, what matters the most is like the thing that you said where he was able to sort of reflect back at you, what, what you already knew, but you needed to hear, which is that your, your religious upbringing was traumatic, right? Clear eye enough, to be able to kind of see you in these, these ways that you’re presenting yourself, as you get to know each other. Um, it takes smarts for sure, but I think you can have the smartest therapist in the world and they might not see you, you know, [00:36:29] Brett: we, uh, we, our, our first session was, uh, telehealth. Um, I will be meeting with him in person for our second session, just so I can get a feel for like the difference between a video session and an office session. Uh, but at the beginning of the telehealth appointment, he like stretched back, put. Fingers behind his head and like raised his arms up. [00:36:53] And like, it was clearly to display that he had half sleeves on both arms, uh, tattoos [00:37:00] and, and it felt like I’m like, that is a weird flex for your first session with somebody to be like, yep. Look at me. I’m a tattooed, I’m a young tattooed guy. give me your faith and trust. And, um, that, that threw me a little bit, but, uh, I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t ask him about his ink. [00:37:19] Uh, I feel like he, he probably would’ve had a lot to say about the meaningfulness. Like apparently he grew up on a reservation and, and like North Dakota, but he’s very white. I don’t, I don’t know the story there. I didn’t ask. Uh, maybe we’ll get into that at some point, [00:37:36] Christina: I mean, maybe he’s not as white as you think. Like maybe he is like, you know what I mean? Like. [00:37:40] Brett: maybe he is one of those people who actually is one 16th native, [00:37:44] Christina: That’s what I’m saying? Like you never, or, or maybe even more than that, you don’t know, like people like race is race is a weird thing in terms of how much like it, you know, people look certain ways. [00:37:54] Brett: I was told as a kid, I was one 16th native American. [00:37:57] Christina: were all told that Brett, [00:37:59] Brett: yeah, I [00:38:00] feel like that’s. And I began to realize that everyone around me thought that as well, and everyone was getting their DNA results [00:38:06] Christina: I was gonna say, and we all realized it was lie. We all had that one. Great, great uncle who was, was native American. Like we all had that Cherokee or something. We all [00:38:14] Brett: In my, yep, exactly. In my memory, I met my great grandmother who was Sue, um, and like Missouri Sue and, and I remembered that I’m like, yep, I’m definitely one 16th. Cause the math works out now. I’m not even sure that memory is real. Her name was ha, but that might have just been like a white trash nickname she had, I don’t, I don’t even know. [00:38:40] I’m scared to ask, [00:38:41] Jeff: I’m thinking of hoo-ha [00:38:42] Brett: telling I’ve stopped. I’ve stopped telling anyone that I have any native American in my blood. [00:38:49] Christina: Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I think the Elizabeth Warren thing should have all been like signed to all of us. You know what I mean? Cuz I think that was the perfect encapsulation of like that’s what happens when you believe that? And then you go to [00:39:00] school and [00:39:00] Jeff: that was brittle. [00:39:01] Christina: and it was, and then you get the stuff back. [00:39:02] And like, because I, I don’t think that she was like intentionally trying to like fuck over the system. Like I really do think that she thought that she had that stuff and that she could claim those things and it’s like, mm, no, no. But [00:39:15] Jeff: Yeah. [00:39:16] Brett: All right. So we have a couple of subtopics in our mental health corner. First, I was gonna mention, like, I haven’t been manic for the last week, but I have gotten shitty sleep. I’ve been waking up between 12 and three every morning. And like aligned from a song will be looping in my head. I won’t be worrying. [00:39:36] I won’t be stressed, but like my brain will just be latched onto a line. Like I’ve had Kayleigh’s new album running through my head, like nonstop and like just one or two lines. Sometimes an entire verse will just get looped in my brain and I wouldn’t call them racing thoughts. I would just call it my brain. [00:39:55] Won’t stop latching onto this thing and fall asleep and I end. [00:40:00] Tossing and turning until like six in the morning when I finally get up. So I’m not like up all night coding. Like I would be if I were manic, but I am not sleeping. Well, [00:40:10] Jeff: sorry. Sucks. [00:40:11] Brett: also Kaya’s new album is fucking great inside voices, outside voices, if anybody cares, [00:40:18] Jeff: I’m scared. I’m scared of the internet was the song [00:40:20] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. [00:40:21] Jeff: I delighted me. [00:40:23] Christina: Yeah. I, I, I haven’t listened to it in depth. I’m still listening to a lot of Beyonce, but, uh, I did like give it one kind of go through and I really liked it. So, and because of you and because of this pod, I’m a okay. For this land. So [00:40:34] Brett: So T T G I F is a song she does with Tom Morelo from rage against the machine and, and it, apparently she had the line in it at the, in the first verse. She says, I wanna rage against the fucking machine. And that was in there before they brought Tom. [00:40:51] Christina: that’s nice. [00:40:52] Brett: Uh, which is like, that was the song that like, yeah, you could tie into this one. [00:40:56] And the whole thing uses like rage style, like weird guitar sounds and [00:41:00] everything. Uh, but the muck is the one that gets stuck in my head at night. Um, stuck in the muck, like, and it, it just loops in my brain and that song is a banger. Weirdo is an Anthem, but the muck that’s, that’s my pick for best track on the album anyway. [00:41:20] All right. So someone just added book rec, I’m glad my mom died. What, what is that? [00:41:24] Christina: It’s a okay. [00:41:25] Jeff: Oh, I saw [00:41:26] I’m Glad My Mom Died [00:41:26] Christina: While you were talking, um, about, uh, your like experiences and, and needing to hear that you’d experienced abuse. And I’d actually meant to bring this I’m meant to put this on the list anyway. So I just finished reading a book called I’m glad my mom died. And it’s by Jeanette McCarty, who was a Nickelodeon actress in like the, the late, uh, odds. [00:41:46] And, uh, she was on a show called I Carly. And then she was on a show with, uh, future pop star, Ariana Grande called salmon cat, which was like a spinoff of two shows, not great. Like these are like, you know, kids sitcoms, right. [00:42:00] And, uh, she quit acting. Um, and although she, she might, she says she might go back to it, but she, she quit acting and was doing this one woman show a couple years ago called I’m glad my mom died, which great title really fucking like, like that’s gonna get attention. [00:42:18] Uh, but she wrote the book and it’s a memoir and. Look, I’m a little bit too old for the shows that she was on. I’m like aware of them, but I’m, I’m too old to really know much about that. So I went into this, reading it, and then I actually got the audible version, like listening to it, not with a ton of familiarity, the way that some people would buy a celebrity memoir where they’re like, oh, I remember, you know, this, this C actress from my, my childhood. [00:42:41] Like, I don’t really have that relationship. And neither of you would have that relationship. So I think that this would be a good wreck and I still thought it was a really, really good memoir. Um, she basically talks about like her relationship with her mom who died of cancer when she. Like 21. Um, and how her mom had been the one who had pushed her into acting to [00:43:00] begin with, which she’d never really wanted to do when she was six years old and really was living vicariously through her. [00:43:05] Her mom basically like started her on, uh, you know, having an eating disorder and, and encouraging, um, that sort of thing, um, at she thinks is maybe a way of control and some other stuff. And, and just some other really fucked up things that while she was growing up, like she would’ve said like my mom’s the best, she’s the most important person in my life. [00:43:24] But then as she became like an adult and had to deal with things, she had to kind of like face the reality that she did kind of grow up in more of an abusive environment and in a really fucked up a lot of scenarios, but it’s, it’s a really, really good memoir. Like, I, I was shocked because. Usually these types of memoirs are like the Jamie Lynn Spears variety, which I did not buy, but I did pirate and was hot garbage. [00:43:45] And I don’t say that because like, I’m like more team Britney than team other ones, like I’m team. That whole family is, is like white trash and sucks. But like, this was actually really, really good. And, um, I I’m gonna wreck it [00:44:00] for people to, to read or listen to, even if you have no idea who she is, it was a really good memoir of, you know, somebody who’s kind of gone through a lot of stuff, um, kind of the weird fame cycle, but also like grappling with their mental health and, and coming to terms with a childhood that was not what they thought that it was. [00:44:16] Jeff: I don’t know exactly where this thing goes, but I, I, I do often think about how it’s not, it’s not one of the experiences that is, is like, is like, uh, socially appropriate to discuss, which is a relief. When a parent dies, a parent that’s been been, uh, complex, um, you know, uh, impact on, on your life as a child. [00:44:39] Um, and that it doesn’t mean that you wished them dead, uh, but that maybe, um, there’s some relief from them [00:44:47] Christina: Yeah, no, she talked about that in some of her interviews, because obviously she she’s been like, she’s done, you know, like the, like the press junk around this now that it’s like top of the best seller list, that’s probably only going to continue. Um, but people have asked, they’re [00:45:00] like, okay, so what about the title? [00:45:01] Like, you know, and she’s like, look, it’s it’s I really mean it like a, yes, it’s provocative and it’s gonna get people to pay attention, which is true. She’s like, but is also accurate. And, and I think that I’ve earned the title. Like, I, I, I heard her say one interview that, and I was like, that’s really, I like that. [00:45:16] I like her saying, I feel like I, my, my lived experience I’ve earned the title, but she also, George stuffs asked her on good morning America. He was like, well, what would your mom think of the title? Would, would you name that? And she was like, there wouldn’t be a book. If my. Was was alive. I wouldn’t have written the book. [00:45:31] I wouldn’t have been able to, to do that. And I think it might have been in the intro, but it, no, it wasn’t in that it was, I think it might have been something with the Atlantic or something, but she like talked about like maybe she did, maybe it was something I just read anecdotally in the Atlantic that when people are giving like tips on memoir stuff, that, yeah, this is what it was. [00:45:49] It was an anecdote in, in the Atlantic where the writer was saying that in, she was in a memoir class in college and the professor would hear people and say, you might have to wait until [00:46:00] people are dead to write that, because that is a very valid thing. I think there are a lot of people who can’t express their truth and how things really are really were. [00:46:09] Until people have passed, which I think all of us can, can relate and experience that and know that yeah, there are things that we can talk about. Even if we talk about it on a podcast like this, that we know our parents don’t listen to. There are things you can’t put out there in the public until people are gone to really get into. [00:46:25] So in this case, you know, she had to wait like her, her mom’s been, been dead for, um, probably a decade, but, you know, she had to wait, like she wouldn’t have been able to write the book and name it that, but it’s also. It’s it’s a provocative thing that will get attention, but she does actually sincerely mean it. [00:46:41] You know, like not that she hates her mother, um, you know, she has complicated feelings about it, but to your point, Jeff, like she feels that relief that a lot of people have and don’t feel emboldened or, or open to say. And that was, there was a lot of discourse, uh, when the book came [00:47:00] out or leading up to its release where people were like very upset by the title. [00:47:04] And then there was pushback from others who were saying exactly what you said, which is no, we need to acknowledge that these are things people feel and that it’s okay for them to feel that. And I think if you read, and I think if you read the book, you definitely understand, at least I, I got the impression and, and I, I would love, you know, you two write, read it or I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, you know, slide you a copy or whatever in your listeners. [00:47:26] Yeah. Our book club, uh I’ll um, you know, I, uh, I feel like she earned the title, you know, like I thought it was I’ll also just, and then I’ll, I’ll shut up. but I thought it was really well written. [00:47:39] She says that like, that’s what she really wants to do. She wants to be a writer or a director. She’s a very, very good writer. And I think that’s what makes this work. Even if you have no context for who she is as a person or as a celebrity, it’s one of those rare memoirs that I’ve read where I went. Okay. [00:47:56] This was in some cases like hard to read [00:48:00] because it’s, you know, there’s a lot in here, but it was actually very, very well written [00:48:06] Jeff: Awesome. [00:48:07] Brett: I think I’m gonna write a book called I’m sorry. I died and then have it published posthumously and, and it will not, it will not be an airing of grievances. It will just be like, I’m just gonna be honest about how I felt about everyone and everything. Um, which by and large is really good. And maybe I don’t say enough nice things to people, but, um, given, given. [00:48:32] Not famous enough to, for there to be like any real estate value to a memoir of my life. Uh, I feel like a post humus, uh, like just have it self published when I die. Like if I don’t, if I don’t check in every 30 days until it not to publish, it’ll just eventually just auto publish a month after my, my passing [00:48:54] Christina: I’m kind of into that. [00:48:55] Jeff: work, get to work. [00:48:57] Grapptitude [00:48:57] Brett: Alright, so, should we skip to gratitude? [00:48:59] Christina: I think we could [00:49:00] just go to gratitude. [00:49:01] Jeff: Yeah. [00:49:01] Brett: do it. So I’ll go first. Can I go. [00:49:05] Christina: You can absolutely go first. [00:49:06] Brett: I’m picking launch bar this week, but with the caveat that I don’t give a shit, what you use, like if you are an Alfred person, if you’re a quick silver person, if you just like to launch things with spotlight. [00:49:18] Yeah. Raycast for sure. Like anything, any kind of launcher fits the bill. I am, I’ve been a launch bar user since it came out, uh, which was in the, in the later days of Quicksilver. I switched from Quicksilver, like before round two of quick, silver Quicksilver has made resurgence, but before round two, I, I became, uh, back in God, like 2000. [00:49:46] I spent like 2006, 2007, I switched to launch bar and, uh, and I just became a dedicated user, uh, Quicksilver kind of fell by the wayside launch bar, ruled the [00:50:00] arena. I became a hardcore fan and then Alfred came out and like everything about Alfred impressed me. I think it’s a great app. I have like, I am no qualm. [00:50:11] I have no beef with Alfred. Uh, I just, I was already quick. So I mean, launch bar was already doing everything I needed it to do. So I’m a huge launch bar fan, but my pick can also incorporate Alfred Raycast, uh, Quicksilver, whatever you, whatever you want, whatever you like. They’re all amazing launchers launchers in general. [00:50:36] Jeff: I went Alfred from Quicksilver and you went launch bar. It’s like, it’s not even a type of person. It’s just like, we all sorted where we sorted. It’s like a Pachinko. It was like a Paco machine, [00:50:45] Brett: It’s just where you landed. Yeah. [00:50:47] Jeff: Yeah. [00:50:48] Christina: I I’ve done. I’ve done like all of them. So I, I went to launch bar first and I was launch bar and I still actually have, like, I still buy launch bar whenever, like it’s, it’s updated. I always buy it. Um, but then, but, but I have like a, a lifetime [00:51:00] Alfred thing. That’s primarily what I use. I recently started using Raycast a little bit and I like it. [00:51:05] There’s some parts of it that I don’t love. Um, so it’s funny. Cause often how I do it, like, cause I have three different Macs, my work laptop, my personal laptop on my iMac. And so I typically have, um, like a couple of them alias. So I have, you know, multiples that I, that I could kind of switch between. So not, not like three at one time I would usually like two at one time to kind of figure out. [00:51:29] And my only thing I think with, with sticking with. Historically has been that it had like a, a little bit more active, like third party community for extensions and things like that. I mean, obviously you, you can still do those things in launch bar, but, but Alfred for a while really kind of had the mind share. [00:51:45] And now a lot of that seems to have gone to Raycast but use what you use, but I’m with you. I love all of them. And, um, for anybody out there, who’s a windows, user, uh, power toys, which is a, a free and open source thing that the windows team actually [00:52:00] builds on GitHub. Um, spiritual successor to the old power toys that came with like windows 95 and shit has a launcher, um, which is mapped to the, the windows space. [00:52:13] Um, like, like thing that works that also has, you know, plugins that people can do and whatnot. So, uh, and, and I, I was sort of responsible for that a little bit because I showed, um, the, the guy who’s the lead of that project, um, an open source, um, Window launcher on, on windows that I had been using that I really liked. [00:52:35] And, uh, and when they started building power toys, that was something that they wound up forking because the, that project wasn’t actively, um, being developed and, um, and, and used, you know, when they were building out the, the, the launcher and power toys. So, yeah. Plus one love launchers. [00:52:51] Brett: Nice work. [00:52:52] Jeff: that is the fourth or fifth windows 95, uh, like shout out on this show since I joined [00:52:58] Christina: I love one does 95. What can I [00:53:00] say? [00:53:00] Jeff: And also, have you noticed that the, the windows 95 launch footage has been kind of moving around Twitter again, where the. Are all dancing, uh, as like which, which one’s had cocaine. Um, . Yeah, but, but especially the big guy in the middle. [00:53:15] Um, [00:53:16] Christina: bomber, come on, man. You know, he’s the one that you, he’s the one we most [00:53:20] Jeff: like, he’s like Craig Finn from the hold steady. His arms are flying and anyway, sorry, but windows 95, go get ’em. [00:53:27] Brett: quick, quick, quick. Subick I just gotta throw in here. Astrol app, have you guys seen astrol app.com? [00:53:35] Christina: I [00:53:35] Brett: It’s a way to tag, add notes and organize your GitHub stars. Like we all star repos. We’re like, yep. Let’s start this repo. And we’ll remember it later, but you get like Christina, you have hundreds of stars [00:53:49] Jeff: I have this problem. [00:53:50] Brett: and to keep track of them, all Astro app is like a, it’s like Pinboard for GitHub stars. [00:53:57] Christina: Huge, [00:53:57] Brett: I’m just gonna leave that in the show notes. [00:53:59] Christina: Leave that in the show [00:54:00] note. Yeah, that’s a huge one. There’s also a, a, um, Chrome extension or, or edge or Firefox, whatever, an extension of everything. But safari, because safari is safari, um, that is called like little star that will also make it a little bit easier for you to organize your stars. [00:54:14] But astrol is great. You can also self host. Astrol like, they’ve got their hosted thing, but that sometimes has issues, but you can host it yourself. I think there’s even a Docker container. So, um, [00:54:25] Jeff: Oh, my God. Astro’s amazing. I literally just [00:54:28] Christina: yeah, yeah, no, no, it, it [00:54:29] Jeff: there I am. [00:54:30] Christina: Yeah, it’s really good. I’m a very big fan. [00:54:32] Jeff: Wow. Needed. Needed. All right. Brett, [00:54:37] Brett: you got something for us. [00:54:38] Christina: Okay. Yeah. So I have, I talked about Canva before. [00:54:43] Brett: Oh [00:54:43] Jeff: the design [00:54:44] Brett: two ADHD people. [00:54:46] Christina: Yeah. The design [00:54:47] Jeff: app. No, I don’t think you have not. What, since I’ve been on. [00:54:50] Christina: Okay, so I haven’t talked about it. Okay. So Canva, um, is canva.com. It is a website web app. There is a Mac app that I think is basically just an electron rapper, which [00:55:00] is fine. Is, um, it’s a subscription. I, I don’t know how much it costs cuz I’m on, somebody’s part of somebody’s team plan, but, but it’s, it’s actually very reasonable. [00:55:09] And if you do a lot of design stuff, like if you’re having to create YouTube thumbnails, for instance, or social media banners or other things, or even just other kind of Photoshop, like stuff, it is amazing. And it is a really, really good tool. Uh, it’s really easy to use, but is also really powerful. And the thing that I really like about. Uh, is that I’ve used. So for instance, I have to make like thumbnails from my YouTube videos every week and I’m in front of a green screen. And you would think that we’re moving, uh, the green screen from your background would be a fairly easy task. Uh, I have Photoshop, I have affinity photo. I have, you know, all these, uh, you know, pixel, I have all these, these things that I pay for, you know, latest version of creative cloud, all this stuff, none of them do it as well as the builtin, as like the free thing for Canva where it’ll remove your background for you, whether [00:56:00] it’s a green screen or something else, it’s actually incredibly, incredibly good, but they have a lot of these templates. [00:56:05] Some of them are premium. So you have to be part of, you know, like you have to be part of their subscription to do it. You know, they’re submitted by others, but it’s, it’s a really great, just like, kind of. Design app for dummies. And, um, honestly, like I look at it and I’m like, you know, this is eating Adobe’s lunch in a lot of regards in terms of like things like Photoshop express and stuff like that. [00:56:27] I’m, I’m a really, really big fan. So CAMBA is my pick, cuz I’m actually have, I’m gonna have to use it in a few minutes. Um, I’ve been very happy with the results I’ve been getting from it, but it’s also easy to use. It’s a lot more advanced than you would think with these sorts of design tools. It’s not gonna be good. [00:56:41] Like obviously if you are a professional designer, you’re not gonna love everything about this, but if you need to do something quick and dirty or you just need to like make something like an infographic or, you know, a graph or like some or other sort of thing, you know, for, for work or for something it’s really, really good. [00:56:58] I’m a really, really big.[00:57:00] [00:57:00] Brett: I am. I am very comfortable in, um, design applications. Uh, I especially affinity stuff these days, but I grew up on, uh, Adobe and, um, I would probably immediately run into the limitations of this, but there’s so much shit I do that. I just need a quick and dirty, good looking. I need a good looking cover photo for a blog post or a podcast episode, and it could be perfect for that. [00:57:31] Christina: that’s what this is perfect for. [00:57:33] Brett: Al works for a yarn shop and she handles their social media and she has, she has dug in and learned a good amount of like Adobe, uh, not Adobe, uh, affinity photo in order to be able to create good looking promos for them. This could actually like I would split the cost of a, the, a yearly pro account is 120 bucks. [00:57:59] That’s not[00:58:00] [00:58:00] Christina: No. And, and, and I think it’s $150 for, for, for a teams thing, uh, for, for the first five people. So, you know, if, if, if each of you want, you could split an account or you could like, you know, like if you wanted to share something like it’s it’s, um, it’s so I I’m on somebody’s teams account. It’s really good. [00:58:16] I think for, for both of you, it’d be good. Like for again, I’m fairly comfortable with design tools, not as comfortable as you are, but I’ve used all of these things forever. But when I was going to like, make a YouTube thumbnail, you know? Okay. So I have to remove the, the, the background and that’s. More challenging than it should be, because for whatever reason, the AI on, on can is, is better. [00:58:37] It just, it’s better than Photoshops. It is. That’s a flat out, that’s a flat out fact. Um, and then, you know, I need to add in like the various elements and I need to, to do, you know, apply certain things, you know, to, to get the, the coloring, right. Or the gradient or this or that. And like the font and like, you know, it takes all this time versus browsing through finding a template that I can customize to my liking and, and then just [00:59:00] snapping it out and I’m, I’m not gonna lie. [00:59:01] Like I I’m much, I’m lazy and it looks good and I’m happy with it. You know what I mean? [00:59:06] Brett: nice. Yep. I’m into it. [00:59:08] Jeff: Yeah. Awesome. Uh, my, well, first of all, I’ve been playing with astrol here and you know what I wish I could do. I wish I could, I could, I could tag it with a certain tag that would cause it to be sent to Pinboard. That would be like an amazing thing. Um, but it’s so good. [00:59:27] Christina: we could write an integration. There might be a way to do an integration. [00:59:30] Jeff: It is so good. And it’s viewer when I click on the various things that are starred is just really well done. And man, thank you. This is awesome. Okay. Uh, my pick is simple. It’s a very old pick it’s by word, like, uh, [00:59:44] Christina: Oh, yeah. [00:59:45] Jeff: I don’t know if you ever used right room back in the day from, uh, Jesse, how do you say his last name? [00:59:52] Gross jeans. [00:59:53] Brett: Gross chain. Yeah. [00:59:54] Jeff: Um, who of course did bike, which has been, uh, I think was a unanimous [01:00:00] recommendation on this, um, podcast. Um, and uh, oh my God. What am, how am I not thinking of the thing that I use all the time? Task paper. Yeah, duh. Anyway, so awesome. Right. Room was great. I remember I used it, man. I lived in New York when I used right room, uh, which was like 2004, I think. [01:00:20] And you could just like, I mean, you will both know this, but you just, you know, open this app and it’s just a big black screen with green type. I mean, you could add, add a couple themes. That was the one that came up and it was just so lovely of an environment to write in. And so anyway by word, when right, you can, I think technically run, um, but by word became my replacement for right room long, long, long time ago. [01:00:42] I mean like a decade or more ago. Um, and I’ve kind of just let it go by the wayside. And then recently I had this just like desperate need to write and focus and I. Popped it in made it full screen and was just able to write. And, um, and ever since then, I’ve been keeping it up [01:01:00] as my sort of note taking app, uh, because it’s just such a lovely environment to write in. [01:01:04] So by word, still, still going, still going strong. I actually don’t know the last time it was updated, but still going. [01:01:12] Brett: I love about byword is keyboard shortcuts, uh, like byword followed the text mate mentality of like, we’re just gonna give you a blank screen with no buttons. Uh, but we’re gonna give you keyboard shortcuts. It was the first time I had the command option up arrow to gradually increase the selection. [01:01:31] If your cursor on the page and you hit command, option up arrow, it’ll select the current word, hit it again. It’ll select the current sentence, hit it again. It will select within like parentheticals or the current paragraph. Hit it again, and it’ll select the whole document and like that kind of, that kind of, and, and like control, command up and down, I think was, it was the first time I saw that for moving lines up and down without having to select stuff like that. [01:01:58] And, and that [01:02:00] became part of my. Space, my minimum viable product requirements for a markdown editor was that it had that kind of power without having buttons for it. Uh, that kind of like under the surface, like it can do exactly what you need it to do in any given time without looking like Microsoft word. [01:02:22] Christina: Yeah, for me, my number one thing with a markdown editor and, and it’s still hard for me to find it to be completely honest is when I was select text and I hit a bracket. I don’t want it to delete the text. I want it to surround the text in brackets. [01:02:35] Brett: absolutely. That is. And I’m pretty sure byword does that. [01:02:38] Christina: sure it does. [01:02:39] Brett: if you’ve played with NB ultra at all, uh, or even multi markdown composer, really good with auto pairing, um, of, of brackets, parenthesis, uh, backs for like code spans. Uh, once you get used to writing and then selecting and hitting the, the surrounding bracket, [01:03:00] uh, it’s hard to go [01:03:01] Christina: It is. It is like, I, I, I found a, I found a workaround for vs code that now doesn’t quite work and I have to figure out another workaround again, but it’s frustrating. Right. So, you know, like mate was so good for so long and I stuck to it for years, partially, honestly, because of like that sort of thing, because I was like, It does the shit that I need it to do. [01:03:21] And I got so used to being able to select text and hit, you know, the Modi and not have it delete it, you know, that I was like, like this ruins it. [01:03:31] Brett: it’s the first thing I test when I open up a new markdown editor to see if it’s something I care about is I’ll select text and hit a, hit a double quote. And if it surrounds it in double quotes, we can keep moving. If not, I’m done, I’m out. Like that’s just basic care of it’s basic user care right there. [01:03:49] Jeff: totally. [01:03:50] Christina: no, but yet I also understand the challenge because you’re like building a multipurpose text editor that isn’t going to be, you know, the response that the most people want. But if you’re [01:04:00] writing the markdown, you definitely do. And it’s funny. I think that I probably do that as a test as well. Brett, probably because you do, because we probably talked about it at some point in the last 15 years and I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. [01:04:12] Brett: I’ll see if I can find, I wrote an article at some point, uh, my ideal markdown editor and I laid out a list of requirements that, yeah, my mark, my ultimate markdown editor wishlist, I wrote it back in 2012 and people still contact me because they were, you know, they started working on a new editor and they took these requirements into account. [01:04:40] Uh, and, and I still, I stand by everything in this. In this article, uh, which includes auto pairing and wrapping. And if you start a list item, you know, with a bullet and you hit return, it should start another list item. And if you hit return again at an empty line, it should clear the clear, the list out like basic stuff [01:05:00] like that. [01:05:00] Just that’s how a markdown editor needs to work for me. So I will link that if anyone wants to build their own markdown editor, see my article as like, if you wanna build a markdown editor that impresses me. Here’s your MVP? [01:05:15] Christina: But also as somebody who’s been working off and on, on a markdown editor, you can probably tell people like, just not to do it. Right. Like, isn’t that just a world of pain? [01:05:25] Brett: well, okay. So did you ever see, um, what was it called? Uh, shit. I had a, I had a marked on editor. I wrote for WordPress that, that worked inside of the, the built in WordPress [01:05:42] Christina: Oh yeah. I remember [01:05:43] Brett: was, uh, quick, quick [01:05:45] Christina: Yeah. Quick tags, [01:05:46] Brett: mark, mark down quick tags, MD QT. Yeah. And, and I wrote it all in JavaScript and it basically was this layer that sat above the TinyMCE editor in, in WordPress. [01:05:58] And I [01:06:00] incorporated all of this into the WordPress editor and I had a blast doing it. Uh, I think the thing that scares me, uh, working on an app like NBI ultra with Fletcher is, uh, the file Handl. Like you, you corrupt a file and you’ve ruined somebody’s note. You’ve, you’ve deleted somebody’s data. That’s the nerve wracking part dealing with, like, this is what should happen when you hit this key that stuff’s easy and, and pretty fun. [01:06:28] And I did a lot of that with NVL too. Um, that, that have fun with that. If you get into actually being a file manager, like NV, ultra is then you’re treading on like, holy shit, I can’t fuck this up territory, but yeah. Have fun. Make new, make new mark [01:06:47] Christina: I mean, I definitely want that. It’s so funny. Some, one of my former colleagues at Microsoft was like, uh, like nagging me today. And they’re like, when is, when is GitHub gonna make their own markdown editor? I was like, that would be awesome. But I, I don’t know. I don’t think [01:07:00] that that’s on anybody’s roadmap, but I, that would be cool [01:07:04] Brett: All right. That was fun. You guys, [01:07:07] Jeff: It was fun. [01:07:08] Brett: what did we talk about today? [01:07:10] Jeff: Oh, don’t do that shit. Uh, we talked, we talked about styles of conversation and ways of listening slash uh, failing, failing to listen. Quality of [01:07:23] Christina: and quality of presence. Thank you, Jeff. [01:07:25] Brett: we talked about whether neurotypical people even exist. [01:07:29] Jeff: mm-hmm yeah. [01:07:31] Brett: We did not come to a conclusion. [01:07:33] Christina: did not. [01:07:33] Jeff: I said, I don’t believe in that monster, but I was searching for words and monster. Wasn’t the one I meant. So if anybody out there identifies that way, I didn’t mean monster. Uh, I still don’t know what I meant, but I’m not that mean. [01:07:44] Christina: And, uh, and we talked about apps, [01:07:47] Brett: yeah, we, we, we went, we went long on mental health and I feel like we had, we had a lot to say Brett found a therapist. Uh, we, we had a lot, we had a lot to talk about. Um, but then yeah, we got [01:08:00] into Grapptitude and I think all three picks day were, were thought provoking and, and really exciting. [01:08:09] Jeff: Yes, [01:08:09] Brett: won’t, I won’t ruin them for people listening to just this summary. [01:08:13] I won’t ruin the picks. [01:08:14] Christina: but they’re good [01:08:15] Brett: You’ll have to check it out. Yeah. [01:08:17] Jeff: actually, well, I think I picked word. If I’m not mistaken, Christina, you were Excel and then brought you access, [01:08:23] Brett: no, I, I went with pages just to be the rebel. [01:08:25] Jeff: Oh, got [01:08:26] Christina: right, right. [01:08:27] Jeff: Got it. Yeah. Great conversation. [01:08:30] Brett: Hey, you guys get some sleep? [01:08:32] Jeff: Get some [01:08:33] Christina: Get some sleep. [01:08:34] Brett (2): Check out our YouTube channel, follow our twitter and instagram accounts, and sign up for the newsletter! See the show notes for links.

Mental health, siblings, The Bear, and some apps you absolutely have to check out. Sponsor ZocDoc lets you choose a doctor using real patient ratings, and book appointments (live or telehealth) in minutes. No more waiting on hold. Take your healthcare seriously and visit zocdoc.com/OVERTIRED. SimpliSafe has everything you need to keep your home safe — from entry and motion sensors to indoor and outdoor cameras. Visit simplisafe.com/overtired and claim a free indoor security camera plus 20% off with Interactive Monitoring. TextExpander: The tool your hosts wouldn’t want to live without. Save time typing on Mac, Windows, iOS, and the web. Overtired listeners can save 20% on their first year by visiting TextExpander.com. Show Links Medisafe The Bear (Jeff just finished last night!) Sandman Hazel FastScripts Name Mangler Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript # Barely There [00:00:00] **Jeff:** Hello everybody. This is Overtired. I’m one of your hosts, Jeff severances. Gunzel and I just got outta my prepo shower. And I’m here with Christina Warren and Brett Terpstra. Hello, friends [00:00:19] **Brett:** I have always said that cleanliness is next to podcast or [00:00:23] nurse. [00:00:24] **Jeff:** podcast. [00:00:26] **Brett:** Yes. [00:00:26] **Jeff:** Hi, [00:00:28] **Brett:** Hi [00:00:28] **Christina:** Hello? [00:00:31] **Jeff:** wait, Christina, why don’t you tell us [00:00:32] where you are because people [00:00:34] can’t see, but I can tell you’re not where you would be [00:00:36] normally [00:00:37] **Christina:** yeah. I’m not where I would be normally. So I’m in Atlanta. I’m at my parents house. My mom’s birthday is today actually, as we’re recording this, so happy, 75th happy 75th birthday mom. Um, very, very, uh, happy to be here with her. So I [00:00:51] am in, um, the, uh, the bedroom that I stay in when I’m at their house. So I’m basically like in a nice, like, it’d be like, like a nice Airbnb[00:01:00] [00:01:00] **Jeff:** Mm-hmm nice. [00:01:01] **Brett:** you are 10 years younger than me, but your parents are the same age as my parents. Did [00:01:06] they have you really late? [00:01:08] **Christina:** Yes. [00:01:09] **Brett:** Is your sister older? [00:01:11] **Christina:** Yes. [00:01:12] **Brett:** Okay. So you’re, are you the youngest [00:01:14] **Christina:** I’m the baby. I’m the baby. And she’s older. And then my [00:01:17] parents were, frankly, they were older. [00:01:18] when they had my sister, [00:01:20] so [00:01:20] **Brett:** I mean, my parents were older when they had me. So [00:01:22] your parents I, I can’t do math, [00:01:25] **Christina:** yeah. [00:01:26] **Brett:** that’s, that’s, pretty advanced. [00:01:28] **Christina:** Yeah. [00:01:29] **Brett:** All right. [00:01:30] **Jeff:** Yeah, well, my parents were 24 and it did not work out. something to be said for waiting a bit. [00:01:41] **Brett:** uh, yeah. [00:01:44] **Jeff:** here [00:01:44] **Brett:** I’m the oldest, but my sister’s only six years younger than me. [00:01:48] **Jeff:** Hmm. Are you, so none of you have [00:01:50] steps or anything like that. You’re [00:01:52] dealing with the, uh, the, original set. [00:01:54] **Brett:** I [00:01:54] **Christina:** Aboriginal said OG OG, OG rents, [00:01:57] **Jeff:** Yep. I just had an [00:02:00] amazing step kid experience where, so my mom was married twice and the second marriage was when I was like, end of junior high, beginning of high school. Um, and I had a stepbrother and a step sister at that time. We didn’t get along any of us, but somehow after my parents, after their parents in mind divorced my former stepbrother and I. [00:02:21] Like inseparable. We started hanging out. He’s five years older than me. We started hanging out. We started taking road trips to New York to see bands. We, we started a band, we made an album. We toured together for a couple of years. Like we became completely inseparable. And in the process of that, I became close with his grandparents, which had nothing to do with my family or my step family and his mother who was like kind of vilified in our family wrongly. [00:02:47] And so I, I sort of built this whole weird, separate family. And about, um, three weeks ago, my brother who lives in Brooklyn, uh, came to town and, and said, Hey, I’m, I’m cleaning out my mom’s [00:03:00] garage. Could I get a hand? Could you help me? So I go over there cuz I love his mom and she loves me and I’m sitting there and I’m cleaning. [00:03:07] My mom’s ex-husband’s ex-wife’s garage and, uh, and, and someone comes by like a neighbor and she’s like, oh, have you met my son, Frank? That’s my stepbrother, former stepbrother. Then she looks to me to introduce me and, and we both just smile at each other because realize there’s like, no name, what she was trying to do was introduce her ex-husband’s ex-wife’s son. [00:03:32] Right? Like, there’s no name for that. And I just felt like this is exactly what it’s like to be a step. Like it’s so confusing. It has no fucking rules. Right? Like there’s no prediction as to how it’s gonna, uh, it’s gonna go. Um, so anyway, you pick your family, I guess. [00:03:47] **Brett:** Yeah, I, I, I have no idea what that’s like. [00:03:50] **Jeff:** Yeah. [00:03:50] **Christina:** I don’t either cuz like my parents have been married for 50 years, but [00:03:54] um, like [00:03:55] literally, uh, but like April was, was their 50th wedding anniversary. [00:04:00] But um, [00:04:01] yeah, but, uh, but I love that. Like you became close with the, with your, your step siblings, like after everything happened, like that’s, that’s just so fascinating to me. [00:04:11] Um, [00:04:12] **Jeff:** weird. [00:04:13] **Christina:** How did you even stay in touch? Cuz like, this is just me guessing how I would act. I imagine that if I had step siblings and then we didn’t get along and then we were no longer related, like by any measure, you know what I mean? Like we had no reason to even have to be around each other. I cannot imagine even like being around the person. [00:04:32] I, I think that I would just be like, that would be where I would be like, yeah, you know what? I’m just gonna, not ever see this person again. [00:04:39] **Jeff:** Yeah, well, that is how I think it would normally go because it was my older brother. Who’s my stepbrother. Like he lived with us on and off in the five years that our parents were married. Um, but he was just kind of a Dick to me. And he like, he’d like handcuff me to the dog kennel or whatever. It’s like total older brother shit. [00:04:57] But for, for reasons, I don’t still [00:05:00] don’t fully understand. And he doesn’t either. We just tried to revisit this a couple years after the divorce, he invited me out to dinner and do a show and we ended up talking, you know, into the early hours and, and he kind of went, whoa, this little brother of mine’s kind of cool. [00:05:13] And I was like, whoa, this older brother of mine likes me. And, and we just, like, we just started hanging out and we don’t really understand why, but I did, I did come to realize recently, um, that, and, and he kind of, I think he basically agrees that this must be it is that we actually didn’t know how to say it or feel it exactly. [00:05:32] But we grieved the loss of that family. Like. We may not have been close, but we were very typical, younger and [00:05:39] **Christina:** but you were family, right? Like you, yeah. Yeah. Like he, he like, he was a Dick to you, but he was your big brother. He was a Dick that way. And it probably would’ve been a thing. And again, I’m extrapolating here cause I’ve never had a brother I’ve never had steps, but I would imagine that like how he treated you, if he’d been blood related. [00:05:55] Would’ve maybe been less annoying to you. You know what I mean? Like you still [00:05:59] **Jeff:** Yeah. I’m like [00:06:00] who? It’s kind of like when you have a step, you don’t like, you’re like, you’re not my fucking dad. It’s like you not [00:06:03] **Christina:** that’s what I’m saying. It’s like, [00:06:04] **Jeff:** you’re handcuffing me to a dog kennel. [00:06:06] **Christina:** it’s like, it’s like, who the fuck are you? You’re not my brother. Yeah, exactly. Cause like my sister sucks. I mean, she doesn’t, but like when growing up, like she would do like shit to me and, and, and I would do shit to her too, but you know, like she’s my sister and I can say she sucks. [00:06:21] If someone else says she sucks, they’re gonna die. Right. Like I’m allowed to talk about it, but no one else can, but I have to imagine that if it was somebody else who like, I had no blood relation with, you know what I mean? Like wasn’t born and raised with and they were like that. I’d be like, okay, genuinely who the fuck are you do not handcuff me. [00:06:38] Right. So. But, but I think you make a good point, which is that like, everybody kind of grieved the loss of like that more familial, like unit and that, that experience. And I’m glad that he was at least able to being older, like take the initiative to reach out and do that and that you guys have a, have a good [00:07:00] relationship. [00:07:00] **Jeff:** Yeah. Because the only thing we had done prior to that, between the divorce and having dinner and going to a show was he came over before going to Europe and he, and he traded me. He had, he brought all his pat Bena records and he goes, I’ll trade you these for your backpack, which was my school backpack. [00:07:16] And I was like in a heartbeat. I was like, fuck. Yeah. Like I, I literally gave him my backpack. I had no other backpack to go to school, which says a lot about how I felt about both rock and roll pat Bena and school. And, uh, and so we made that swap and then we didn’t talk for a long time. But the, the official thing is when we realized how tight we were, we did the, uh, pinprick blood brother thing. [00:07:37] And that’s not recognized by law, but it’s, it’s, it’s the reason that most people that know us know us as brothers and don’t even realize, we just decided to say, we’re brothers now. So [00:07:48] **Christina:** no, I totally, and also, also, you know, the prick thing, it, it is recognized by like playground law, right? [00:07:54] Like [00:07:56] **Jeff:** Totally. Which is a vicious kind of law. [00:07:58] **Christina:** it really is. [00:08:00] Yeah. [00:08:01] **Jeff:** Blood [00:08:02] **Christina:** Hmm. [00:08:03] **Brett:** this summer has made me realize how much I don’t I’m I’m not close with my siblings at all. [00:08:09] **Jeff:** what do you mean the summers made you realize [00:08:11] **Brett:** This summer, both both of my siblings came for one week, stays in town with my [00:08:17] parents. So I only saw them a couple of times while they were in town. But man, my [00:08:23] brother is [00:08:24] unbearable. Like you want pretentious, you think I’m pretentious, you should meet my brother [00:08:31] **Jeff:** friend of the show? Brett’s brother [00:08:33] **Brett:** and my sister, my sister, I love like, I think my sister’s great, uh, a little religious for my taste, but we just, with a six year difference and me going off to college before she was even in high school, like we were never close. We, we barely know each other and I enjoy her and her husband and her daughters are fantastic. [00:08:56] They’re just great nieces. Uh, but I’ve [00:09:00] realized we just, we don’t connect in any kind of [00:09:03] real. [00:09:04] Way, it sounds like you are way closer with your stepbrother than I ever have, but your former stepbrother than I [00:09:12] have ever been with either of my blood siblings. [00:09:15] **Jeff:** Mm, yeah. Yeah. It’s a, it’s a blessing. You’re where do they live? They’re spread throughout the country [00:09:20] **Brett:** Yeah. Wesley’s in Atlanta. And, uh, Atlanta’s in like somewhere in Ohio Dayton, maybe. I don’t know her, her husband works for the department of defense. If I recall correctly. He does, he does laser shit. He’s an engineer who does laser shit. And he loses me very quickly when he starts telling me about work. [00:09:46] Uh, but we get to talk about like, he, his company, like his, well, his organization within the company kind of adopted this startup mentality, which I’ve been through before, when you’re in a large [00:10:00] corporation and your team starts doing scrum and, and standups. And, and you’re just like, yeah, I, there’s a reason I don’t work for startups and I don’t need that in my, in my corporate [00:10:13] **Jeff:** laser scrums though. Laser scrums. That sounds fun. [00:10:19] **Brett:** Yeah. We had, we had a good conversation. We, we went for a hike. It was, I I [00:10:24] like Joe and [00:10:26] Lana [00:10:27] better than I like the rest of my family. And I still feel like I barely know them. [00:10:32] **Jeff:** Mmm, family corner [00:10:38] we, totally just did family corner. [00:10:40] **Christina:** we we totally did just do family corner. Yeah. I, I could, I [00:10:42] could, yeah, my sister and I [00:10:44] it’s similar, like we’re [00:10:45] six years apart. We know each other, but like we would, neither of us would choose to be friends with the other one if we were not related. Um, but since she has had the baby, you know, we are closer. [00:10:58] And like I said, like, I can say she sucks. If [00:11:00] someone else does, then I’m gonna get mad. Um, I don’t know. It it’s, it’s more complicated I think, but it, but [00:11:07] there, there are some similarities. Certainly I, I can relate to what you’re saying there. Uh, I, I think the big thing for us is we’re just very different people and we always have been, and we’re both headstrong and we’re both like opinionated. [00:11:20] And so we’re very different, but we have that similarity, which means you’re going to clash, you know? [00:11:27] **Brett:** Yeah. [00:11:28] **Jeff:** Mm-hmm totally the. [00:11:30] **Brett:** Does this segue into a mental hor health corner? Pretty [00:11:33] well. [00:11:33] **Jeff:** Sure. But can I just say that, that, because I have post shower hair, [00:11:37] I’ve got kind of a KKI [00:11:38] from Greece thing going on with my [00:11:40] **Christina:** Kind kinda [00:11:42] **Jeff:** I’d [00:11:42] **Brett:** it’s pretty good. [00:11:42] **Jeff:** I mean, I love KKI. [00:11:44] In fact, my stepbrother [00:11:45] played KKI in Greece anyway. [00:11:46] **Christina:** oh, wow. [00:11:47] **Brett:** see it all full circle. I love [00:11:49] it. [00:11:50] **Jeff:** wow. Mental health corner. [00:11:52] **Brett:** So Jeff, [00:11:54] a theme song, [00:11:56] **Christina:** do, [00:11:57] **Brett:** you know, I [00:11:57] **Jeff:** would be like, [00:11:59] **Brett:** [00:12:00] so the, the software we’re using to record does have a soundboard and I’ve considered figuring that out. The thing is, if you don’t, if you don’t play a sound, when you [00:12:11] start, when it gives you the final tracks, it doesn’t start the soundtrack track until you play the first sound. [00:12:20] So nothing syncs up correctly. [00:12:23] **Jeff:** no weird. [00:12:24] **Brett:** So, if we were going to do it, we could easily just play the intro music that I usually insert in post. We could play the intro music, do the intro and then have a soundboard. And yeah, like, uh, transitions to sponsor reads transitions to mental health corner [00:12:42] or gratitude could all have [00:12:44] theme songs. [00:12:45] Um, and [00:12:47] and I kinda like the idea. I just haven’t gotten the technical aspects of it figured out [00:12:52] yet. [00:12:53] **Jeff:** All right. All right. Well, [00:12:55] **Christina:** Yeah, I’m kind of into it. I will say like, you’re the musician, uh, you two are the musicians like I’ll, I’ll [00:12:59] **Brett:** [00:13:00] Oh, we should get Aaron to pitch in and write theme songs for yeah. Friend of the show. Aaron [00:13:08] Dawson. [00:13:09] **Christina:** Yes. [00:13:10] Aaron we are just volunteering you now. Then we, we pay you [00:13:13] like, [00:13:14] we’re just volunteering [00:13:15] your, your time to, to, to do this, but yes, that would [00:13:18] **Brett:** Aaron is a very talented [00:13:19] musician. It would be, we could pair. [00:13:24] **Jeff:** Yeah, we’re rolling in money. [00:13:26] **Brett:** Yeah, [00:13:27] **Jeff:** Give us some of that [00:13:28] sweet sponsor [00:13:29] **Brett:** we got [00:13:30] three sponsors today. We [00:13:31] **Jeff:** give us some of that sponsor coin [00:13:33] **Brett:** some custom music. [00:13:36] Speaking [00:13:37] of should, should we do a [00:13:38] sponsor [00:13:38] read before? No, we’ll do, we’ll do mental [00:13:41] health corner and then we’ll just pile on the sponsor [00:13:44] reads. [00:13:45] **Christina:** we’ll just do sponsor sponsor, uh, sponsor central. I don’t [00:13:49] **Brett:** Yeah. Yeah. And [00:13:50] with, and we’ll make up some theme music as we go Yeah. All right. [00:13:54] All right. So [00:13:55] **Jeff:** God. What if we played island music all the way through the sponsor reads. Anyway. Sorry, go ahead. [00:13:59] I’m sorry. [00:13:59] **Brett:** is [00:14:00] island music is like, uh, [00:14:02] **Jeff:** Yeah. [00:14:03] **Christina:** Yeah, [00:14:03] yeah. [00:14:03] **Jeff:** drums. You got the yeah. [00:14:06] **Christina:** be some animal [00:14:06] crossing [00:14:07] type [00:14:07] **Jeff:** Little animal crossing vibe. Exactly. I always thought our podcast should be more [00:14:13] like animal [00:14:13] crossing. [00:14:14] **Christina:** I mean, same, to be honest, because animal crossing is the [00:14:17] best, but. [00:14:18] **Brett:** never played. [00:14:20] never played. [00:14:21] animal cross. [00:14:22] **Jeff:** Oh man. [00:14:23] **Brett:** I just play threes. That’s like, yeah, that’s it. That’s it. That’s ## [00:14:27] Mental Health Corner [00:14:27] **Brett:** all I [00:14:28] **Jeff:** all right. I got one. I can start mental health [00:14:30] corner up. [00:14:30] **Christina:** All right. You. [00:14:31] **Jeff:** I, I am just like, I don’t even have a, [00:14:34] uh, so I [00:14:35] take medication like [00:14:37] anybody at certain times [00:14:38] in the day, and I have [00:14:39] never successfully had a [00:14:42] system that has me taking my medication at the same time. In the same point of the day, every day. It just, I can’t get it right. [00:14:51] Not with reminders, not with pill organizers. It’s always I’m off by an hour every day or [00:14:56] **Brett:** Can I tell you about metae? [00:14:59] **Jeff:** Is this a [00:15:00] sponsor? Oh, [00:15:01] **Brett:** no. It’s this app that I use on my phone and, and I get notifications on my watch and on my phone that it’s time to take my meds. And if I don’t acknowledge it within. Half an hour. Like it sends them every 10 minutes and then after half an hour, it plays, it uses the emergency notifications to play the sound of a, to play the sound of a [00:15:23] pill bottle, shaking to let me know that I have completely missed my med window. [00:15:30] So I’m never more [00:15:31] than 30 minutes late [00:15:33] taking my meds. And it has worked for years now. [00:15:36] **Jeff:** So alerts and even those kinds of alerts don’t work on me. I, I just brush ’em off and get pissed off. They just pissed me off. Like, cuz the thing is, it’s not there’s there are no real [00:15:48] consequences to me taking my [00:15:50] meds a little late. Right. It’s just that what I would like to be doing is taking them and I’m told this helps taking them [00:15:56] consistently at the same point in day, you know? [00:15:59] [00:16:00] And, and like I, um, I have not, I took a, I used some app with my watch that did a similar thing like that and it, it worked some of the time, but not all the time. Cuz sometimes what happens to me and I don’t know if this is like a, some internal resistance to be worked out with my therapist, but sometimes what happens to me I’m like, no, not now. [00:16:18] I’m not gonna take my meds now I’m doing something else right [00:16:21] **Brett:** That’s so [00:16:22] **Jeff:** I don’t wanna be the guy that has to take meds right now. [00:16:26] that’s part of what must be going on in my head, [00:16:28] but [00:16:29] **Brett:** so so no app, no app can help you. [00:16:32] Is [00:16:32] **Jeff:** No man. No, it’s just like, you know, well maybe [00:16:34] **Brett:** re you. rebel against the very idea of a schedule. [00:16:39] **Jeff:** yeah. [00:16:40] **Brett:** Yeah. [00:16:41] **Jeff:** yeah. [00:16:42] **Christina:** can, okay. I can sort of understand that [00:16:43] cause I’m, I [00:16:44] can [00:16:44] be [00:16:44] similar, but I do have to wonder, I mean, okay. You’re saying that there’s not, [00:16:48] um, like consequences [00:16:51] or whatever, so I get that, uh, but is it. [00:16:55] Is it that like, it it’s too much effort for you to grab your pills then and [00:17:00] do it? Or, or what is it? [00:17:01] Because like, if, if like, if the pills were right there and you have like water right there, would you take it? What is it? Is it just being told you have to do it like, like what what’s what’s the hold up? Cause I would think, cuz I can be similar, but like if my pills are right there and if I’ve got water, then I’m, I’m gonna go ahead and do. [00:17:17] **Jeff:** Right, right. The big problem is in the daytime because I, I, I am very, even if I have a schedule I’m following my brain is very scattered through the day. Um, and, and even when I’m taking my ADHD meds, like I’m just all over the place. And so actually it’s very easy for me to go, oh, I gotta take my meds. [00:17:35] And cuz I do have a reminder at least once like, oh, I gotta take my meds. And then I just like totally forget for an hour that I haven’t taken them. And sometimes on weekends I can not take my meds until. Well in the midday, cause I just keep forgetting, but it’s like, do you know? I mean, for me, the way I’ve experienced, what I think is ADHD is like, it’s something that makes no logical fucking sense. [00:17:56] It’s like, how is it possible that I was going to do this [00:18:00] thing? And then I completely forgot I was going to do it until three hours later. Right. When I remembered, oh, right. I was like, how is that possible? Like it hurts my brain. Right. Cause I am, I am a systems person. Right. Like I do have systems and I really, I have a need to organize things and I’m quite good at organizing things. [00:18:16] But I have this part of my brain that just resists that or, or is totally unable to sort of come along. And, and that’s the part of me that I think causes me to take meds at different times. Night is different like at night because what I take makes me drowsy, um, Sometimes am like, it’s like, you know, it takes about 30 minutes for the meds to kick in. [00:18:35] And I maybe like it’s, it’s nine 30 or 10 30 or whatever. I’m like, well, I should take my meds, but I don’t know. I wanna be tired in a half hour. That’s another problem. So anyway, , [00:18:45] I [00:18:45] **Christina:** The night ones I can’t really help you with. But the other ones, I guess what I would say is like, what’s helped me cuz is, is just like making it as accessible as possible. Like, you know, if, if I know where I’m usually going to be, and then if an alarm goes off or whatnot, then [00:19:00] like it makes it that much harder for me to just ignore what I need to do. [00:19:03] I don’t know. [00:19:04] **Jeff:** Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, actually you’re making me realize I’m sitting here with my pill thing and I’m a half hour late on the [00:19:10] **Brett:** That’s the sound that Medisafe [00:19:12] **Jeff:** don’t I, segue to somebody else while I take those pills? [00:19:15] **Christina:** Yeah, I was gonna say, take your pills. [00:19:19] **Jeff:** else has some corner? Some corner talk. [00:19:22] **Brett:** I, uh, I can go. [00:19:23] **Christina:** Yeah, you [00:19:24] **Brett:** I, uh, So I had that like long period of what we, what we called hypomania. Um, and I’m now having a long period of hypo depression, where I’m just like, I’m sleeping too much. I’m having trouble getting going. I’m having trouble starting things, but not in this complete block kind of way that I’ve run into in the past. [00:19:52] Not in this, like I just can’t do anything. It just takes me a little extra work right now. And [00:20:00] honestly, [00:20:01] I can live with this, like, You know what I get, like when I’m stable and I’m like, oh my God, I miss being manic. And this is horrible. And I, I don’t, I don’t feel like I can do anything cuz I’m too stable. [00:20:14] Like if I can have just mild mania and then mild depression, I feel like I could, I could sustain this. I, I sh like this is absolutely not medical advice for [00:20:26] anyone, especially anyone suffering from bipolar. Like, don’t take me too seriously, [00:20:33] but like, I, I, can live with this. This is livable, [00:20:38] I think. [00:20:39] **Jeff:** I have a question for you this, this last streak without any, um, manic episodes or any real low episodes, was that the longest that you can remember? [00:20:51] **Brett:** Um, yeah, but I have a very short memory. I have like an ADHD memory and. I have stomach issues. [00:21:00] And when they start up, it would be really helpful to remember what I ate like two days before. But I don’t, I don’t remember. So for me, like the present is like all, all I really have. So yes. Um, the 3, 3, 4 months I went through of stability was the longest I can remember in my memory, but I also had two years where my ADHD meds got cut off. [00:21:32] And, uh, that, that led to [00:21:36] long periods of stability. There were still manic [00:21:39] and depressive [00:21:40] episodes in there, but I’m pretty sure during those [00:21:43] two years, I [00:21:44] probably had an equal amount of stability. Just it’s I don’t remember. [00:21:50] **Jeff:** I I ask because I, you know, having listened to you [00:21:54] kind of [00:21:54] check in on. Spell that, that, that, you know, those months that you [00:21:59] didn’t [00:22:00] have [00:22:00] any manic episodes in your starting to talk about how, um, you know, you, you sort of miss having a manic episode or it made you think of made you kind of feel like hints of desires for drugs that would make you feel high or manic. [00:22:15] And I, I was wondering at the time and wonder now, is that a, is that a phase of a long period of, um, no manic episodes that you might get to the other side of and, and go, oh, wait, I’m, I’m not, I’m not feeling as strongly that what is my identity without mania or, you know, cause that’s what I feel like I heard you saying is like, who am I without mania? [00:22:42] Right. [00:22:43] **Brett:** yeah. That’s accurate. I also, I don’t know [00:22:45] what what’s on the other side of that. [00:22:47] **Christina:** right. [00:22:48] **Jeff:** mm-hmm yeah, of course. Who, how could you know? Yeah. [00:22:53] **Brett:** but then I had a manic episode and it made me fucking happy. So I’m not complaining. [00:22:59] **Jeff:** Yeah. [00:23:00] Interesting. [00:23:00] **Christina:** Well, I think, [00:23:00] I think, I think, what it [00:23:01] is is like you’re used to it, right? Like, you know, you [00:23:04] know, the [00:23:04] mania, right? Like you, you. [00:23:06] **Jeff:** Yep. [00:23:06] **Brett:** the devil. I [00:23:07] **Christina:** It’s the w know, it’s predictable. [00:23:09] You you’ve found ways to [00:23:11] make it work for you in certain situations. It’s not [00:23:14] debilitating where you go into almost like a psychosis sort of thing. [00:23:17] Whereas some people who have bipolar do, right, like there, there, there mania episodes are not things that are, are useful at all and, and, and can be really, really dangerous, um, yours aren’t. And so if it’s not sustaining and it’s whatnot, like you almost also, I mean, if you’re honest with yourself, you probably enjoy the high a little bit. [00:23:38] Right. Like, [00:23:39] **Brett:** Oh, for sure. [00:23:40] **Christina:** right. So, so for you, I think it’s something, you know, that you understand, and then if you don’t have it, you wonder, okay, well, am I going to have the, the ability to be creative and to, to get things done and whatnot without it, right? Like, like what, what is it without. [00:23:58] **Brett:** What was, what was the, [00:24:00] there was a, I can’t remember if it was a show, it was Anne Hathaway as a bipolar. I think it was an episode of that. [00:24:07] **Christina:** Modern [00:24:07] **Brett:** Uh, modern love. Yeah. Yeah. Like I related to her in that show, I thought that was a spectacular, um, Example of the kind of bipolar I experience. Um, when I’m, when I’m manic writing a line of code that works gives me this huge dopamine burst and like, and then I’m away from my computer. [00:24:37] And all I wanna do is get back to my computer and write another line of code. And it is it’s highly productive and not at all dangerous, I’m not spending money. I’m not hurting relationships other than maybe not participating in them, but like it’s very productive and yeah, I’ve heard what other people go through with [00:25:00] mania. [00:25:00] I’ve seen it in other members of my family and I’m grateful that I don’t have that kind of psychosis and, um, binge spending and, uh, like destructive behavior. I just, I don’t have that. And for me, it, it just kind of. It works? [00:25:21] **Jeff:** Hmm. [00:25:23] **Brett:** No, I, I, I can’t, I can’t complain. I feel like I, it, El said it this morning. Like my career is kind of built on [00:25:34] my bipolar, like, everything that I have is the result of, of things that I’ve accomplished and things that I’ve done as a result of mania. [00:25:45] And, and we talked about this, like how, I don’t know yeah. Who, who I [00:25:48] am without it. Um, and, and, and Christina was pretty insistent that, [00:25:55] you know, I am a perfectly productive human being [00:26:00] without mania. I have, I have not proven [00:26:03] that [00:26:03] **Christina:** Well, you are perfectly productive [00:26:04] It might not be [00:26:05] the same though. I’m just saying, like, I’m not say [00:26:08] **Jeff:** not excessively productive, [00:26:09] **Christina:** I’m not, I’m not, [00:26:10] I’m not saying that you, I, I’m [00:26:11] not saying that, [00:26:11] that like, like I just say this from my own experiences of being like, who am I, if I don’t have the depression and, and whatnot, like you are still you and you can still get things done and you’re still creative and whatnot, but it’s not going to be the same. [00:26:25] Like, and, and now it doesn’t seem like it’s something you’ve had to worry about because you have this. But I, I do always worry anytime anybody says, and I, I worry about myself when I say these things like, who am I without X? Because that becomes like an existential question. And, and I think that, that a lot of times we, we assu we, we make correlations between things that we’ve always known about ourselves and, and give them credit for things that they shouldn’t get credit. [00:26:54] **Brett:** I read this really fun. It was a collect, it was a, an Instagram [00:27:00] story, but it was all of these collections of writings about how we pick up. Aspects of our personality from people we love even just for a heartbeat. And, and if you take away all of the heartbreak in your life, you’re left with an emptiness. [00:27:21] Not, not that you are less of a person, but if you take out all of the heartbreak, you’re left with these voids that people try to fill with more love and more drugs and, and more work. Um, and it’s it really made, this is, this is irrelevant to what you were just saying. just like something about this, not knowing who you are without X. [00:27:46] Like it made me realize, yeah, like I have picked up some affectation or some belief or something that gives me pleasure from every relationship I’ve ever had or been [00:27:57] in whether sexual [00:28:00] or [00:28:00] romantic or just friendship. Um, and those have all become like a real part of me. [00:28:07] Like they definitely add up over time. [00:28:10] **Christina:** One of my. [00:28:11] **Jeff:** or relationship with drugs, relationship [00:28:13] with mental health. [00:28:14] **Brett:** absolutely. [00:28:15] **Christina:** my favorite quotes from one of my favorite [00:28:16] books ever, although the book [00:28:18] hasn’t aged particularly well, but I still love it. Um, invisible monsters by, by Chuck, uh, Paul check, um, the, the, the quote is, uh, nothing of me is original. I’m the combined effort of everyone I’ve ever known. [00:28:30] **Brett:** Yeah, [00:28:31] exactly. That’s [00:28:32] **Christina:** And I, And I, love that. [00:28:33] So the scene is that the two main characters are writing or they’re actually at the top above the, um, [00:28:40] um, Seattle where I live the freaking the tower. What is it? You know, the the [00:28:44] stupid, [00:28:45] **Brett:** the [00:28:46] **Christina:** space needle. Thank you. [00:28:47] **Jeff:** the needle of [00:28:48] **Christina:** Yes, they’re on top of the space needle and they’re writing these postcards and that, that have these things, um, uh, you, I think they like distributing them out or whatever, but, but they write these things down. [00:28:57] And anyway, I think that some of it is. [00:29:00] [00:29:01] It’s supposed to be kind of trite, but I, I love that quote. Anyway, there’s also one that’s like when we don’t know who to hate, we hate ourselves. Um, and, uh, but, but, but you know, nothing of me is original line, the combined effort of everyone I’ve ever known. I that’s. [00:29:15] I think about that quote, when you say that, cuz I feel a similar way. I think that that’s, that’s probably universally true for a lot of people, you know? [00:29:22] **Brett:** Yeah, [00:29:22] **Jeff:** Everyone they’ve ever known. I mean, it’s kind of this infinite, you know, it’s just really quite beautiful. [00:29:28] **Brett:** no, I, I absolutely think that’s true of every single human being. I think that’s just how, [00:29:34] uh, the psyche and relationships work. [00:29:39] **Jeff:** Yeah. [00:29:39] **Brett:** anyway, Christina, your turn. [00:29:42] **Christina:** So, um, I [00:29:43] guess, so I’ve been with my [00:29:44] parents for a week and, um, and, [00:29:47] I’m going back [00:29:47] on Monday and it’s been really nice to be here. uh, the the dogs have had some, like my parents’ dog has had some [00:29:53] health, uh, [00:29:54] uh, drama. Um, he’s [00:29:56] okay. Fortunately, but that’s led distress. Um, [00:30:00] and, uh, my mom, ironically, it’s been interesting. [00:30:05] So my mom’s, you know, she’s retired, she’s a therapist and I’ve had to kind of play therapist for her this week. A little bit more of just a sounding board. And I credit this podcast a lot with it. I think that I have like better insights into some things, but she was seeing this doctor she’s gonna get a different, um, internal medicine doctor, because this doctor is clearly out of her mind. [00:30:24] Like what it is is this doctor I’m sure is fine, but doesn’t know her. And my mom is high strung. And my mom is like very type a and my mom is like kind of a high keyed person, but so she goes in and she’s read these things on her chart because they put everything on the chart before she goes in and she’s reading the stuff that she understands enough of to be dangerous, but doesn’t get all the context up and it’s freaking out. [00:30:47] And then the, the doctor, her first response is, oh, you clearly have an anxiety disorder. So I’m gonna put you on Prozac or I’m gonna put you on other stuff without even knowing her. And then my mom’s like, I’m, [00:31:00] I’m not going on this. And then she’s like, oh, well you need this, this and this, you know? And just like being very dismissive, very kind of ageist also. [00:31:07] And so I was just like, Yeah, you probably are OCD mom. Yes. You do. Probably could benefit from anxiety things, but you’re 75 and you’ve managed this while your entire life, and this is not going to be helpful for you at this point. Like, you know, like I I’ve dealt with a lot of, kind of my issues because I’ve had 20 plus years of therapy. [00:31:27] It’s different. Right. Like I, you know, you have managed, you don’t need this, so it’s, but it’s sort of been interesting talking to my mom because in some ways it is sort of like looking at almost like a mirrored version of myself, you know what I mean? Like I’m like, I’m like, oh, this is where I get a lot of my fucked up issues. [00:31:47] Um, and, and I mean that in the best way possible, cause my mom is the best person in the world, but, but yeah, that’s that, that’s sort of been interesting. [00:31:56] **Jeff:** home in the [00:31:56] **Christina:** Yep. [00:31:58] **Brett:** Yeah, I I’ve [00:32:00] become, um, convinced that my father has ADHD, like has always had ADHD and [00:32:06] **Jeff:** friend of the show. Brett’s father. [00:32:08] **Brett:** Yeah. Like I thought [00:32:09] I thought it would be interesting to see what he would be like now [00:32:13] if it, if his ADHD [00:32:15] were treated, um, but also he’s in his seventies and [00:32:20] he’s retired and he’s done fine. His whole [00:32:23] **Christina:** That’s the thing, right? [00:32:24] **Brett:** career. [00:32:25] And like, what’s the point, [00:32:27] **Christina:** Well, that, that’s sort of the problem, right? It’s kind of like, yeah, [00:32:30] you’ve, you’ve made this work. like, [00:32:31] what are, what are you, what are you going to do? You [00:32:33] know? I mean, [00:32:34] also, is it a good idea to give [00:32:36] people in their seventies? Amphetamines? Probably not. Right. [00:32:39] Like, [00:32:42] You know what I mean? [00:32:42] Like my, my dad is definitely ADHD and I don’t think he ever went on Adderall or anything with it, but he definitely is, but also like found ways to cope and, and it’s, you can be kind of maybe sad to think, well, wow. Maybe their life or other things would’ve been better if they’d had access to things. But at the same time, it’s also a [00:33:00] little bit affirming to know, you know, and this isn’t true for everyone. [00:33:03] Cause everybody has things in different degrees, but like, okay, you, you can, you know, survive slash thrive slash whatever, without these things. If, if you have to [00:33:13] **Jeff:** right, [00:33:14] **Brett:** Can I, can I share an interesting note that is only marginally related? Um, a as I want to do, um, a recent peer reviewed study has shown that people suffering from ADHD do not have a lack of dopamine. We just have we over process. Um, and serotonin, I believe [00:33:41] like we get our, our normal amounts of serotonin and [00:33:47] dopamine from everyday life, but our receptors eat it up way faster than anyone else. [00:33:55] **Jeff:** I mean it I’m gonna peer review That, [00:33:57] right now. That, that, that has just like a [00:34:00] logic to it [00:34:00] that I really makes [00:34:01] **Brett:** So which means, which means like we, we treat it with medications that increase things like dopamine, but if we could instead treat it by altering the receptors to behave in a more normal way, we could treat ADHD without stimulants, which is it’s [00:34:24] it. It’s interesting to me. I, I do find with [00:34:27] stimulants, I think they’re a great treatment, but [00:34:30] if, if you could treat [00:34:33] ADHD without stimulants, that [00:34:34] could [00:34:34] be, that could be [00:34:36] groundbreaking. [00:34:38] **Jeff:** Hm. [00:34:38] **Christina:** it could be great, right? Like it could be really good cuz I, I think that there are downsides to like the, the stimulant stuff, right? Like there are some very real things so that [00:34:47] **Brett:** Especially, especially in young [00:34:49] **Christina:** I was gonna say, especially in young kids and especially, I think in people who might be predisposed towards, you know, addiction and other things, and people who don’t want their hearts to explode and all kinds of stuff, [00:34:58] **Brett:** Sure. [00:34:59] **Christina:** you know, like, [00:35:00] yeah, that, that could be amazing. [00:35:01] I hope that they do more research on that. And I hope that, that the, they like, they’re more, you know, peer reviews at the peer review thing, like to figure stuff out. Like, it’d be really good to see. [00:35:10] **Brett:** in recent years it has become so difficult to get stimulants and it has become, uh, such a taboo for a doctor to prescribe stimulants to anyone of any age. And if ADHD treatment could move [00:35:25] beyond the requirement [00:35:28] of, you know, schedule one schedule two drugs, [00:35:32] then. Then we might see a broader treatment of ADHD, especially in vulnerable populations. [00:35:40] **Christina:** Yeah, that, that, that’s [00:35:41] actually very true. And actually, if I can go on one rant real [00:35:44] quick, before we go into sponsor, uh, central sponsor island. Okay. So something changed actually talking about ADHD stuff, because I had to, it was a pain [00:35:51] in the ass. So right before I left Seattle, like I went to get my meds filled and this was like August [00:35:58] 1st. And I went [00:36:00] to get like a refill of, of, of my medication and they couldn’t fill it because on July 26th, The DEA changed a law where they had previously allowed doctors to, or pharmacies to add your address birthday or whatever, to your prescription manually. Now your doctor has to write it in their own hand. [00:36:23] **Jeff:** Oh, yeah. You mentioned this last [00:36:24] **Christina:** Oh, I mentioned this last week. Yeah. Well, I’m gonna write about it again because [00:36:27] **Jeff:** it’s crazy. [00:36:28] **Christina:** nuts. And then I had to, because it was a pain in the ass for me to then get my, my stuff filled this week. Like I, my, my shrink mailed it to my house. It was fine. My parents’ house. It was fine. But then, you know, it was a problem of like finding a pharmacy that had the number of things in stock. [00:36:43] And then you can’t call like, like the pharmacies can’t call internally to find out if the other ones had the drugs, you have to actually ask the patient, call all the different Walgreens to find out who has the thing in stock. [00:36:56] **Jeff:** Ugh. [00:36:57] **Christina:** So that’s, that’s why continuation rant from last [00:37:00] week. I’m sorry. I forgot that. [00:37:01] I, I forgot that. I mentioned [00:37:02] **Jeff:** No. Well, no. And it’s, it’s just, I mean, I had actually forgotten about that detail and it’s something that I feel like has gotta have a lot of people in your situation [00:37:12] **Christina:** Yeah. And, and so I guess the update from that, cause we didn’t, uh, I, we didn’t talk last week or whatever was that I talked to my shrink, he didn’t know until the 26th either. So the doctors didn’t even know, like they, they, they BA they made this change and didn’t bother to tell anyone who could’ve been impacted. [00:37:26] Right. Like I was annoyed. I was like, well, it would’ve been nice if Walgreens or whoever had like, emailed me to say, this is updated. He’s like, yeah, it would’ve been nice. Doctors found out too. It’s like, no fucking shit. Like what the hell you’re gonna make this massive change, which is going to affect tons of people. [00:37:42] And then like, you know, if you see a doctor who can, like, if you’re in the same state and they can transfer to electronically, like that’s fine, but I’m not in the same state. And that’s, especially with all the COVID stuff and people doing virtual appointments, that’s [00:37:54] not uncommon. Right. So. [00:37:56] **Jeff:** Right, right. Ugh. [00:38:00] That is [00:38:00] maddening. [00:38:02] **Brett:** Almost leads into our first sponsor. [00:38:05] **Jeff:** Welcome to sponsor island. I’d like to [00:38:08] take you over [00:38:09] **Brett:** what should our theme music be? She’s like she says some dude beat boxing [00:38:13] **Christina:** Yeah, exactly. [00:38:15] **Brett:** with the like, [00:38:16] **Christina:** Sponsor spot, spot, spot. Yeah. [00:38:19] **Jeff:** You could do like an underwater sponsor read if you ever line the [00:38:25] **Christina:** Oh, I like it. I like. [00:38:29] **Jeff:** I’m sure they’ll be fine with that. ## [00:38:33] Sponsor: Zocdoc [00:38:33] **Christina:** All right. Well, this episode is brought to you by Z doc. If your doctor can recite every line from Ferris jeweler’s day off as, as, uh, as Jeff was just saying, but can’t remember your name, viewer viewer. It is time to get a new doctor with Zoc and Zoc makes it easy to find quality doctors in your network and in your neighborhood. [00:38:55] Plus with real verified patient reviews, you can find the right doctor for you. One [00:39:00] that actually remembers your name and doesn’t just call you like Simone or something. Zoc is a free app that shows you doctors who are patient reviewed, take your insurance and are available when you need them on Zoc. [00:39:12] You can find every specialist under the sun, whether you’re trying to straighten out those teeth, fix Nicky back, get that mold checked. Anything else? Z doc has you covered Z doc’s mobile app is as easy as ordering a ride to a restaurant or getting delivery to your house search find and book doctors with a few taps, find review, find and review. [00:39:32] Local doctors read verified patient reviews from real people who make real appointments. Now, when you walk into that doctor’s office, you’re all set to see someone in your network who gets you go to zoc.com to find the doctor that’s right for you and book an appointment in person or remotely that works for you on your schedule every month. [00:39:51] Millions of people use Zocdoc. I’m one of them. I’ve used them for years. I’m actually about to use them, uh, to find a gastroenterologist because I need to have [00:40:00] some, I think I might have an ulcer, so I’m gonna be using Zoc for that. It’s definitely my go-to whenever I need to find and book a quality doctor. [00:40:07] Go to zoc.com/ Overtired and download the Zoc app for free. [00:40:13] Then start your search for a top read doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That’s Zoc do [00:40:20] c.com/ Overtired zoc.com/ Overtired. [00:40:27] **Brett:** God damn. That was [00:40:28] **Jeff:** you everybody. Thank you. Now we’d like to walk you over to the other side of the island. Simply go ahead, [00:40:34] **Brett:** The today’s episode [00:40:36] is brought to you by simply safe. Here’s a question. Is there anything that matters ## [00:40:41] Sponsor: Simplisafe [00:40:41] **Brett:** more than the safety of you [00:40:42] and [00:40:42] your loved ones? Of course not. So isn’t it strange that many home security companies don’t act that way. This is why we use and trust simply safe home security. Their advanced security technology helps us sleep at night and they always put our family’s safety [00:41:00] first. [00:41:00] Here’s why I love it with 24 7 professional monitor. Simply safes agents call you the moment. A threat is detected and dispatch police or first responders in an emergency. Even if you’re not home or can’t be reached simply safes monitoring, agent Tru uh, monitoring agents truly care about your wellbeing and are highly trained to help you keep calm and safe during stressful situations. [00:41:25] Staying on the line with you until help arrives. Simply saves customer first policies. Make sure you are taken care of with affordable plans, starting at less than $1 a day and no long term contract or hidden fees, because feeling safe at home shouldn’t break the bank. Customize the perfect system for your home in just a few minutes@simplysafe.com slash Overtired. [00:41:49] Go today and claim a free indoor security camera. Plus 20% off with interactive monitoring. Go to simply safe.com/ Overtired. That’s S I M [00:42:00] P L I S a E slash Overtired. And now, and now to Jeff [00:42:07] of tax river, [00:42:09] **Jeff:** but there’s no copy. [00:42:11] **Brett:** what there [00:42:12] is, it’s literally in the it. [00:42:14] **Jeff:** Oh, wait. Where? [00:42:16] **Christina:** I don’t see either. [00:42:18] **Brett:** All right. So let me tell you about [00:42:20] tax expander because apparently Quip is failing [00:42:23] us. [00:42:23] **Jeff:** Oh, [00:42:24] Oh, oh, I, I can, maybe I can change the, uh, [00:42:26] font. It’s all white. [00:42:28] **Brett:** Oh, [00:42:28] **Christina:** Oh, it is all white. Yeah, it is. [00:42:30] **Brett:** I did. I changed it white because I use, I use, Uh, [00:42:35] Quip in dark [00:42:36] **Christina:** So this is where Quip is just a failure. [00:42:40] **Brett:** Quip Quip, not today’s episode is not brought to [00:42:43] **Christina:** Absolutely not. [00:42:46] **Jeff:** is not brought to you my quick [00:42:47] time. God damnit. Let’s just do a whole [00:42:51] episode of who’s not sponsoring our show. [00:42:53] **Christina:** not. [00:42:54] Quip. Salesforce has messed that shit up [00:42:56] **Jeff:** Okay. Sorry. I was in the, I was over there in [00:43:00] the outhouse, the Tiki outhouse [00:43:01] on, on sponsor [00:43:02] island. And [00:43:02] **Brett:** I gotta tell you when I did the, the Q and [00:43:05] a, uh, panel at max stock, uh, when we had Mike Rose up on stage, we asked, so what exactly does Salesforce do? He gave ape. Like he, he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. And I gotta say I came out of it. Still not understanding what Salesforce does. [00:43:26] I do not know what Salesforce is or does. [00:43:29] **Christina:** we don’t work in sales or with customer acquisition [00:43:31] stuff. If we did, we [00:43:32] would definitely use it as everyone does. But yes. [00:43:39] **Brett:** There’s there’s a huge building for the anyway. Jeff, ## [00:43:43] Sponsor: TextExpander [00:43:43] **Jeff:** All right. All right. All right. I would like to tell you all about text expander. What would you do with more hours every month? Oh my goodness. That could be the rest of the podcast. Uh, repetitive typing, little mistakes, searching for answers. They’re all taking precious time away from you, killing you with tiny [00:44:00] knives, stabbing, stabbing you and your team with text expander. [00:44:04] You can take back your time so that you can focus on what matters most in your business. With text expander, you and your team can keep your message consistent, save time and be more productive. Be accurate every time. The way we work is changing rapidly. Make work happen wherever you are by saying more in less time and with less effort using text expander, you’ll never need to copy and paste repetitive responses. [00:44:31] Again. With text expander. Your knowledge will always be at your fingertips with a quick search or abbreviation. Here’s how it works. Drop your commonly used content into a text expander snippet and give it an abbreviation. Share your snippet with your entire team. Just type a few characters to trigger your snippet and the content expands anywhere you type it is that easy text expander is available on Mac windows, Chrome, iPhone iPad windows [00:45:00] 95, uh, dos. [00:45:01] They got it on dos six. Um, over Overtired listeners get 20% off their first year. Visit text expander.com/podcast. [00:45:12] To learn more about text expander. [00:45:16] **Brett:** Awesome. Can we, can we talk about, we haven’t talked about media for some [00:45:21] **Christina:** I know let’s talk about it. Let’s get into. [00:45:23] **Jeff:** mixed media [00:45:24] **Brett:** so there’s this show? Uh, I just found it. on, was it Hulu? ## [00:45:30] Speaking of Bears [00:45:30] **Brett:** I think, yeah. Hulu Hulu a couple weeks [00:45:33] ago. Yes exactly. An at that show on Hulu called the [00:45:37] bear. And I watched the first episode. It’s about, it’s about a restaurant and it was about it’s about the kitchen and the chef’s lives. [00:45:48] And it was so stressful that I did [00:45:51] **Jeff:** So [00:45:52] **Brett:** I did not [00:45:53] think I could stick with it. And, and I watched the first episode. I’m like, this is just, it’s too much yelling, too much stress [00:46:00] and I’m kind of done, but it got under my skin. And by 24 hours [00:46:06] later, I was like, I need to see what happens next. And I, within a week I had finished up season one of the bear and I am delighted to find out season two is already confirmed. [00:46:20] Um, Jeff, I know you just finished it. What was your impression of the [00:46:24] **Jeff:** Well, yeah, just to say that the show what’s what’s interesting about this show is, um, and there have been shows in the past that take place in the kitchen that handle food and food service and restaurant life and whatever else. This one is super interesting because it’s the, the, the star of this show, the chef was, you know, running one of the best restaurants in the world in New York city and came from a family that ran like an Italian beef, um, joint in Chicago and just a little tiny hole in the wall place that, you know, everyone’s loyal to and has been going to since, you know, before their, you know, their dad went before them, their mom, before that, whatever it’s like [00:47:00] got history, um, in this little corner of Chicago, the owner of that particular re. [00:47:06] Is this chef’s brother and he commits suicide and, and leaves the restaurant to his brother who he had never allowed to work there. And so his brother leaves his life in New York and comes to this family Italian beef place, like pretty convinced he can save it, um, but is really just like grinding through his grief basically in kitchen life. [00:47:28] And, and it is, it is all close shot. The kitchen is not large, cuz it’s like a little Italian beef place. Um, there is so much, um, just so there are so many types of people in this tiny [00:47:42] kitchen. Um, so many little stories, so [00:47:46] much energy it’s also close shot It can be really overwhelming. Even after that first episode, I feel like there are episodes that reach a kind of climax in these close shots in this small [00:47:56] space that can be kind [00:47:57] of hard to take, but you’re so in love [00:48:00] with the [00:48:00] characters [00:48:01] **Brett:** There was even a, there was even a single shot episode. I can’t remember which one it was, but [00:48:05] **Jeff:** oh, was [00:48:06] **Brett:** that was pretty much one take, [00:48:07] **Jeff:** I didn’t notice that that’s [00:48:09] **Brett:** I, I can’t remember which episode it was or I would tell you, um, I did find out that [00:48:15] beef sales in Chicago, we’re up in a statistically significant fashion. [00:48:23] After, [00:48:24] after this show aired on Hulu. [00:48:26] **Christina:** that’s hilarious. [00:48:28] **Jeff:** That’s amazing. Well, of course, so here’s something that like, I, that we could all kind of connect around. What I loved about this show is that I didn’t know who any of these people were as actors and they were all phenomenal. It’s a perfect cast to the person. There’s not a weak link in the entire thing. [00:48:46] And, and it is so also wonderful to watch a show about a kitchen, where there are no really beautiful people. And, and the thing that’s driven me nuts. My wife talks about this all the time, especially in [00:49:00] kitchen movies and shows you always have some beautiful woman, uh, love interest or, or sous [00:49:07] chef. And then this like totally dopey dude. [00:49:10] And, and that’s like a thing that happens [00:49:12] in movies. Generally, the [00:49:13] dudes can be dopey. [00:49:14] but the women can’t be dopey. Right. And I’m not saying there was anybody [00:49:17] dopey in this thing, but there were no, just like there were no [00:49:20] beauties. [00:49:21] **Brett:** a straight up Midwestern cast. [00:49:24] **Jeff:** It [00:49:24] was lovely. [00:49:25] **Brett:** Cousin, the cousin, the, the super macho, like the guy that you, the character development of his character was outstanding. Like I have never hated and loved someone simultaneously. Uh, well, not never, but it’s been a long time in a TV show since I have had so much spite and compassion for a single charact. [00:49:52] Um, he was, it was, it’s an outstanding show. And like, like Jeff said, like every character in it has a [00:50:00] story and, and you, you find yourself wanting to see how every story turns out and there’s no way they could wrap up like every story with a neat little bow. Uh, they do an amazing job, uh, of wrapping up the season without, without having to like tie a bow on everything. [00:50:19] Uh, they come up with a way to finish the season, uh, kind of felt like they weren’t sure they were gonna get another season. It felt like they needed. [00:50:29] **Jeff:** how it ended. [00:50:30] **Brett:** Yeah. they needed to end the show and I’m, I’m very excited to see the next phase because they kind of, they, they surpassed the initial hurdles, like the whole time. [00:50:42] You’re like, ah, I, I can’t wait to see this restaurant succeed, but there’s no fucking way that by the end of the season that restaurant’s gonna succeed, um, it’s [00:50:53] **Jeff:** not really what restaurants [00:50:54] **Brett:** it’s going to survive. And that is by the end. That’s what you’re cheering for is for the restaurant to [00:51:00] survive. [00:51:00] And it’s [00:51:01] **Jeff:** you’re watching a Muppets, it’s got a Muppets movie kind of architecture to it where like this isn’t spoiling anything early on. They get a bad rating from the health department and you, you you’re like, oh, I get it. I’m in a Mt. Snoopy. [00:51:13] Now we we’re gonna spend the rest of the time, figuring out how to get that, you know, but it’s, that’s not what it is. [00:51:18] And that’s just such a beautiful thing. And also, I just have to say, I [00:51:21] kind of wish more shows that were not [00:51:23] guaranteed a [00:51:23] second season would, would wrap as if they weren’t guaranteed a second [00:51:26] season. Cuz I’ve been burned a few times and it makes me so, I mean, I like live with the shows in me that were canceled too early. [00:51:33] Right. Like can’t stand it. [00:51:37] **Brett:** So you’re gonna watch it, Christina. [00:51:39] **Jeff:** Netflix. [00:51:40] **Christina:** I’m gonna watch this. Actually. It’s [00:51:41] funny, cuz my friend Alex was telling me about this. Her brother works in the restaurant industry and uh, I think it was like maybe like too close for comfort in some ways there. I uh, I, I [00:51:51] definitely am going to watch this. So [00:51:53] you both have convinced me. I’m very [00:51:54] excited to watch this now. [00:51:55] **Brett:** I, I [00:51:56] have a friend who’s a head chef at a restaurant and said [00:52:00] that it was the most realistic portrayal of an actual kitchen that he’s ever seen. [00:52:07] **Christina:** Yeah. Um, hearing about it, it reminds me of the book a little bit, um, that Anthony Bourdain’s, um, uh, book a kitchen confidential, uh, which became a TV series, which did not last very long with the, with Bradley Cooper actually. Um, and, uh, it was on Fox. It was sitcom and it didn’t last very long, but the book, uh, kitchen confidential was my introduction to Anthony Bourdain. [00:52:29] Um, probably was a lot of peoples cuz I mean, I was, I was 18. So I, there, there was no reason for me to know who he was other [00:52:37] than that [00:52:37] book. Um, but that book is, is really great and the audible [00:52:41] version he reads and, and it’s, it’s great to kind of hear his take on all that stuff, but um, I’m, I’m looking forward to watching this now. Thank you very much for the wreck. [00:52:51] **Brett:** yeah, no, that is absolutely I’m. I’m proud to give you that recommendation. My other show on the list is Sandman, which [00:53:00] apparently you guys aren’t the Neil Gayman fans that I am [00:53:04] **Christina:** Well, I am, I am. I just haven’t had time. I’ve just been, I’ve just been busy. [00:53:08] **Brett:** Yeah, this is, I’m not judging. I’m [00:53:10] not judging. I just like, for me, like I [00:53:14] counted the days until the release of Sam and I headed off by a week in [00:53:18] my [00:53:18] head. [00:53:19] **Jeff:** Hm. [00:53:20] **Brett:** like that Friday came around and I was devastated. That was not out for a whole nother week. Um, it is, it is extremely well done. If you have read the comics, you will be astounded by how, how well they translated, uh, the sand artwork and the sand plot line to the big screen, or, you know, whatever size screen you have in your apartment. [00:53:50] Um, but even if you haven’t read the books, it still, it retains all of the magic of Neil Gayman storytelling. [00:54:00] Um, I will, I will wait and we’ll see if you guys, uh, find the time to watch it and then we can discuss further, but I will say it is an outstanding adaptation of comic to screen. [00:54:12] **Christina:** Okay. I’m excited about this thing, cuz these are [00:54:14] always the questions that you have, [00:54:15] right? Like that, you have like, okay, how much are they gonna mess this [00:54:17] up or do this? Right. So I’m glad to hear that, uh, that you’re saying that, that they’ve done this right. [00:54:21] **Brett:** Well, and Neil Gaman was integral in [00:54:24] the creation of this [00:54:25] **Christina:** Yes. Which, which, which is [00:54:26] always a good sign, but doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s always going to be good. [00:54:31] **Brett:** it’s thus far, uh, American gods, uh, good omens. Like the stuff that Neil Gaman has actually had a hand in [00:54:40] **Christina:** Agreed. American gods is [00:54:41] **Brett:** out spectacular. Yeah. Great stuff. But anyway, that we, we, [00:54:48] kinda mental health and TV, we just, we filled an hour, [00:54:53] **Jeff:** can I say one last thing [00:54:54] about [00:54:54] **Brett:** please. Please do. Oh [00:54:56] **Jeff:** don’t have, I don’t have much insight in being a chef, but I was a dishwasher [00:55:00] from age 16 to about age 23. [00:55:03] **Brett:** Jesus. [00:55:04] **Jeff:** And, um, I mean, among other things, as in punk rock band and modes and lawns. Nope. None at that point. Um, [00:55:14] anyway, uh, there’s a point where they’re loosely, they’re lightly considering a, a new dish that has risotto in it. [00:55:21] And one of the, one of the things the chef says to shoot it down is that the dishwashers would be pissed about the bands. And I was like, yes. gave the dishwashers some just a little [00:55:32] **Christina:** The little bit you’re you’re like, yes, we will be pissed about the pans because you’re [00:55:35] **Jeff:** You’re like, this is realistic. [00:55:36] **Christina:** like, you’re like this, this is burning everything to the sides. All, all these rice, all, all these rice grains are making it a [00:55:42] pain in the ass to scour. [00:55:44] **Jeff:** Yep. God. Right. [00:55:47] Anyhow. [00:55:48] **Brett:** Okay. You guys got another 10 minutes in you. [00:55:51] **Christina:** Yep. [00:55:52] **Jeff:** yeah, [00:55:52] **Brett:** All right. Okay. Aptitude, who wants to start? ## [00:55:56] Grapptitude [00:55:56] **Jeff:** I could start. I feel like there’s always one of us [00:55:58] that [00:55:58] needs other [00:55:59] **Christina:** Yeah. I was gonna say, [00:56:00] I definitely [00:56:00] **Jeff:** out what we’re gonna [00:56:01] **Christina:** I definitely need you [00:56:01] **Jeff:** I’ve totally been there. I’ve totally been [00:56:03] there. [00:56:04] so I’m, I’m uh, I I’m choosing name man [00:56:08] by many [00:56:09] **Brett:** didn’t you have re I feel like we I feel like you did this, or you did reamer. [00:56:15] **Jeff:** No, one of us did Moom in terms of many tricks, but I’ve, I don’t, I may have done this. I’m worried about that. I had done it, but [00:56:23] **Brett:** we made that rule. We can repeat [00:56:25] **Jeff:** been using it. And so name Mangler is just this lovely interface for re like batch reaming files. And, and you have, you know, similar to, to like Hazel, you have just a ton of different options for how, how it’s going to act on a file name based on whatever conditions you set and what, the reason I brought it up this week is I’m trying to come up with a naming convention for a project. [00:56:46] And, um, and I love using name Mangler to play around with naming conventions, cuz I feel like you can actually stress test a naming convention by using name Mangler, to rename just a bunch of, you know, sample files that you’re [00:57:00] gonna use in a project and see how it all look looks. And so I love it. I love using name Mangler. [00:57:05] Um, I use it all the time. I know you can do this programmatically. I’ve done that too. Um, but I actually just love the interface. Like it’s just a wonderful interface and it makes me think it actually, the interface itself makes me think more critically about. How I’m going to [00:57:21] handle a name change. And like, I’m just someone takes that shit really seriously. [00:57:25] Like [00:57:25] naming conventions really matters. I just don’t have one naming convention that always applies to every project. And so I was in that situation. [00:57:33] **Brett:** I am pretty adept at renaming files, like from the command line, uh, coming up with little loops and scripts that will rename files, but nothing is better than an interface that lets you see exactly like set up. You’re like here. Yeah, exactly. Set up. Like, am I gonna do a red X replace? Am I gonna change extension? [00:57:56] Am I gonna append a sequential number and like set all that up and then [00:58:00] see a preview of how it’s going to affect all your files and then just hit the run button [00:58:04] and, and, [00:58:05] you’re done. And there are multiple apps that will do this name. Mangler is among the top definitely, uh, available apps. Um, uh, fire, uh, forklift has, has some renaming capability built in, but, but name Mangler is classic and, and top-notch great. [00:58:23] Pick. [00:58:24] **Jeff:** Yeah, [00:58:26] **Brett:** All right. Speaking of Hazel, that’s actually my pick for the week. Um, uh, Hazel is an app, a Mac app that, uh, watches for file and directory changes, and then can act on those files and you can build, uh, kind of, um, sec sequences using a graphical interface, uh, to act on those files and perform anything you want to perform. [00:58:57] For example, if I save [00:59:00] an image file to my desktop, that contains 2% signs, um, it will then process that image, uh, in, in various ways. So I can save, um, header image percent percent. Oh dot P G and that will, uh, optimize the image and create a half size version of it and name one of them at two X. Um, if I put a C percent percent, OHC, it’ll convert it to JPEG. [00:59:33] Um, and this is all like scripting that I’ve done, but it, it means that if I wanna prepare an image for use on the web, I can just add percent percent to the name. And, uh, Jeff and I have done some automation, uh, for his, his kind of day job, uh, that is very reliant on, uh, tags and, and devices being plugged in to, uh, automate, uh, [01:00:00] processes in kind of the interview workflow. [01:00:02] And Hazel is, there’s nothing. There’s nothing else that compares. There’s no other app that does what Hazel does. And, and I think it’s definitely worth mentioning. [01:00:14] **Jeff:** Awesome. I love Hazel. [01:00:16] **Christina:** Kind of speaking of scripting things and automation stuff. My pick this week is fast scripts, uh, from a friend Daniel, Jacque. I, uh, I love this app. It’s kind of like a supercharged version of. Of kind of your apples scripts sort of thing. And if you’re somebody who runs a lot of scripts in a lot of places, it can be really, really good. [01:00:40] And it’s just an app that, um, I, uh, I always [01:00:45] wanna get more into scripting than I am, and this is the, the app [01:00:48] that. [01:00:48] kind of can probably get me there, the closest of anything. And, uh, and I like how it’s, it’s a library works. I like how, um, the, the, the keyboard shortcuts, [01:00:59] um, [01:00:59] **Brett:** You can add [01:01:00] a keyboard shortcut to every one of your scripts. It’s [01:01:03] **Christina:** It is beautiful the way that it, that it can like, do like the, the, the context switching is really, really good. [01:01:09] Um, and then what’s nice about it too, is that it’ll work with like apple script or with like automate our workflows. [01:01:15] Like, it it’ll work like [01:01:16] with [01:01:17] whatever kind of scripting thing you’re, you’re wanting to work with. So I’m, I’m a really, really big. [01:01:22] **Brett:** I wonder if, they, I don’t know if he’s integrated shortcuts into it [01:01:26] **Christina:** I don’t think he has, but I hope that [01:01:28] he will. I think that that would be awesome. [01:01:30] I’m sure he will [01:01:31] **Brett:** joke. It’s a genius. He’ll he’ll he’ll if, if it’s doable, he’ll make [01:01:36] **Christina:** Yeah. I was [01:01:36] gonna say, if he can do it, he definitely will. Uh, and, uh, [01:01:39] **Jeff:** is the Mars [01:01:40] **Christina:** yes, [01:01:41] **Brett:** exactly. [01:01:42] **Jeff:** Okay. Got [01:01:43] it. [01:01:43] Got [01:01:43] **Christina:** also black [01:01:44] ink, which if you, uh, if, if, you wanna do a good, uh, [01:01:48] puzzle app, that’s a, that’s [01:01:50] a good one. [01:01:50] **Jeff:** Ooh, [01:01:51] **Brett:** Like for generating, for making your own crossword puzzles. [01:01:54] **Christina:** No, for, for, for solving. [01:01:56] So that’s like, just like a good, like, it’s [01:01:58] **Brett:** I thought it could make your own. [01:01:59] **Christina:** I think, [01:02:00] I think you can also [01:02:00] make your own. Um, but, but it’s like, I [01:02:02] use it just to like, play [01:02:04] like, you know, puzzles from other, [01:02:06] from like the [01:02:06] times in other [01:02:07] **Brett:** I’ll admit I’ve never actually used it. I just I have so much respect for Daniel gel cut as, as an apple developer. [01:02:14] **Christina:** Yeah. He’s, he’s like one of the OGs, like, you know what I mean? Like of like, of like the delicious generation Coco, like era, like [01:02:21] he’s like one of the OGs, one of the best and just a great guy, too. Fantastic guy. [01:02:27] **Brett:** Yep. We could just do Daniel gel cut as a pick [01:02:31] **Christina:** We could honestly, I would, I wouldn’t be mad at it. He’s a great guy. [01:02:36] **Brett:** All right. So Overtired has [01:02:38] a bunch of new channels. Uh we’re on Instagram, we we’ve long had a Twitter account. Uh, we have a new YouTube channel and, uh, full episodes are being posted to YouTube. So if you’re listening on [01:02:52] **Jeff:** my cooking show. [01:02:53] **Brett:** thanks for joining us. And Jeff’s cooking show. Um, and we are also starting up a newsletter. [01:02:59] [01:03:00] So if you want to get your name on the list and get a free email newsletter, check the show notes, [01:03:06] all of these links will be in the show notes. You can sign up for free, um, get, uh, some like the gratitude. I’m not sure exactly what we’re gonna put in the newsletter yet. Uh, but you’ll get some extra special show, note, uh, links and, and maybe some we’re not, it will not be mental health advice because we are not qualified to give that. [01:03:32] Uh, but [01:03:33] **Jeff:** Maybe some of Brett dad jokes for premium for premium subscribers. [01:03:38] **Brett:** When is the guy with the little SNIC and a show [01:03:40] up? I don’t know, but it shouldn’t be long. [01:03:44] **Jeff:** Oh my God. [01:03:45] **Brett:** You’re welcome. Um, alright. Hey, [01:03:48] you guys get some [01:03:50] **Jeff:** Yeah. [01:03:51] **Christina:** Get some sleep voice.

The trio is back together to talk about this week’s mental health, tech conference hopes, music festival tragedies, and some great apps. Show Links Macstock Trainwreck: Woodstock ‘99 Retrobatch TablePlus Roon Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Peace, Love, and WTF [00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:03] Hey listeners, you are tuned into Overtired. I am, uh, Brett Terpstra. We are back after a week off. Uh, I’m joined by Jeff severance. Gunzel and Christina Warren, how you guys doing? [00:00:18] Jeff: Two in good high. [00:00:19] Christina: Yeah. Doing well, doing well. Glad, glad to be here. Uh, glad to be back with both of you, cuz it’s been a while since we’ve, uh, done a pod together because you were gone Brett, and then we took some time off. So yeah. [00:00:33] Jeff: Yep, [00:00:33] Brett: Yeah. And, and before that we took some time off. We’ve been a little, um, scattered for a couple [00:00:40] Christina: I, [00:00:41] Jeff: summer schedule. [00:00:42] Christina: I was about, I was gonna say it is the dog days of summer. Like, I, I don’t know if this is how it is at Oracle prep, but I know that like at, at Microsoft and, and also GitHub, like basically people don’t work the entire month of August. Like, that’s just one of those, [00:00:54] Brett: that would explain. So it seemed really strange to [00:00:58] Jeff: you? A bunch of Europeans over. [00:00:59] Christina: [00:01:00] basically. [00:01:00] Brett: So, so like Oracle had a bunch of layoffs, uh, like huge number of layoffs. And I don’t even know the full extent of it, but, um, I was on vacation when the big round of layoffs happened and I got back and things were so quiet. I was wondering if I had been laid off and they just didn’t tell me, like, kinda like edged me out. [00:01:25] My band did that to me back in college. [00:01:28] Christina: Okay. [00:01:28] Jeff: know what? Sorry. Go ahead, [00:01:31] Brett: just stopped inviting me to rehearsal. [00:01:33] Christina: that’s how you found out you were out of the band? No, I was gonna say like, like genuinely, like, is everybody on your team? Okay. Like, [00:01:39] Brett: Yeah. My entire team is like, we met stretch goals like all through last year and like our team. Shows, uh, real results. And I’ve been told by, by the like second in commanded Oracle, we’ve been told we’re safe, [00:02:00] uh, which is a big, it’s a big relief. I, I need, I need to have a job right now, [00:02:04] Christina: Totally totally. Uh, no, that, that’s why I was asking before we got into any other, like jokingness stuff. I just wanted to like, make sure like, cuz cuz when I saw that and I, I, I knew we were gonna be talking and I was like, if something had happened, like I would’ve seen something, I would’ve heard something, but I, uh, I wanted to make sure that everybody on your team was, um, was okay. [00:02:23] Jeff: According to a obscure, uh, business newspaper called the wall street, something, something the layoffs primarily hit Oracle’s advertising and customer experience. As company emphasizes cloud and healthcare, it services, healthcare, it services. Well, all right. [00:02:40] Christina: I didn’t even know they did that, but, but [00:02:43] Jeff: That’s a big company. Isn’t it? [00:02:45] Brett: What’s healthcare, healthcare, like they just bought Cerner. So why are they laying off? I don’t what’s the [00:02:53] Christina: another part it’s, it’s probably another, I, it’s probably another part of like a healthcare thing who knows. I mean, I’m just thinking [00:03:00] like, you know how it is with giant companies. Like there are, I think there are two or three different health divisions at Microsoft that are in different parts of the company. [00:03:08] So who even knows. [00:03:10] Jeff: Yeah. Well, but Brett, you and your basement are unattracted. [00:03:16] Brett: Right, [00:03:16] Christina: is important though. [00:03:18] Jeff: it is important. Yeah. [00:03:19] Mental Health Corner [00:03:19] Brett: here in my bomb shelter. So, uh, let’s, let’s talk a little mental health. Uh, if you don’t mind, I’ll kick it off. Cuz it’s kind of short for me. Um, I, uh, I’ve been hypomanic for. A little over a week, uh, which is extremely long for me for a manic episode, but also I’m sleeping every night. [00:03:43] Jeff: Will you explain for people who don’t know the difference between hypomanic? I mean, you’ve talked about being manic a lot, but hypomanic [00:03:49] Brett: well, so I’m, I’m kind of, I’m probably misusing that phrase, but what I mean by it is, um, I’m sleeping like four to six hours a night. I’m [00:04:00] waking up. I’m not overly obsessive, but I’m definitely, um, uh, easily, easily get like one track mind on like a coding project in a way that I don’t when I’m stable. [00:04:15] And honestly, it’s been overall very productive. I’ve had a lot of fun. Uh, it’s kind of that sweet spot of. Uh, being able to create new things, uh, with while still getting some sleep and not killing myself. Um, I do need to get back to getting eight hours of sleep. Uh, it is wearing me down. Um, but in general, like I’m not, not talking too fast. [00:04:42] I’m not, uh, I’m not hiding in my office while I should be like hanging out with my girlfriend. And, um, yeah, like it’s, it’s kind of a it’s, it’s the sweet spot. I just, if I could combine this level of productivity with [00:05:00] eight hours of sleep, I’d actually be really happy. [00:05:03] Christina: Well, that would kind of be the dream though. Wouldn’t it like if you could have like that amount of productivity and like eight hours of sleep, isn’t that like, like isn’t like the plot line of the, of like the movie slash TV series. Like [00:05:12] Brett: yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh my God. When I saw that, when I saw that the movie and the show, I kept thinking that it was basically like the drug was focal in. Except without like, like a perfect version of Focalin. I was like, I need that. I want that drug [00:05:30] Christina: yeah, no, I, I felt the same way. I was like, oh, this is like Provigil, but like better. I was like, hell yeah, I want this. Give it to me. [00:05:38] Brett: Yeah. So that’s, that’s my mental health update. I’m I’m doing okay. I’m, I’m looking forward to kind of crashing and hopefully the, any, any depression that follows it will be equally as mild and, and I’ll just kind of, yeah. Anyway, I’m kind of relieved to know. I can still have mania a [00:06:00] little bit on my new med schedule. [00:06:03] Um, I do like, I, I sadly rely on it. Yeah. It, it’s kind of disgusting. It’s sick. It’s sick. How I kind of rely on my bipolar to succeed in the world. [00:06:18] Jeff: It’s not disgusting. It’s like a part, a part of your like core identity in the most pure sense. It’s like how you know how to live and how, you know, the experience of living has gone. [00:06:30] Brett: I have found that since I’ve started being more open about bipolar, I get a little embarrassed to publish like new projects because in my head, I think everybody knows that me publishing this means I’m having a manic episode. Um, but [00:06:46] Jeff: No, you know why, you know what hides it, you are incredibly well, um, sort of reasoned and pace, documentation and blog posts. You’re the way you write is [00:07:00] so just sort of con you would never guess this is someone who’s experiencing mania. When you, when you release something and write it, you can tell by the content like how much you are sharing that there’s been a lot of work happening, but it’s like you have such a calm and collected way of talking about your software and your [00:07:18] Brett: quantity and quality. [00:07:20] Jeff: That’s right. [00:07:21] Brett: Thank you. All right, [00:07:24] Jeff: There’s my, for the day Brett’s [00:07:27] Brett: go? You want to go? You want to tell us your mental. [00:07:30] Jeff: Um, yeah, sure. I mean, I, one thing I’ve been really grateful for this past couple of weeks is just, you know, something that I think you can learn it a couple ways. You can learn it by dabbling in Buddhism. Um, and, uh, like white liberals love to do like myself, you know? [00:07:48] Um, and you can, and, and I have learned it through therapy, this idea of rather than, um, really just like banging on myself about some pattern of [00:08:00] behavior or way of being, and just going through these sort of like shame cycles, just having help to kind of step outside my myself and just be curious, like, that’s like a really key word to be curious, like, huh, I wonder why. [00:08:13] I do that, or like, I wonder, I wonder like a big one that comes up for me is like, okay, so this thing I do clearly served me at some point, right. And probably even helped me or saved me at some point, but I don’t really need it anymore. And my, my body and my mind just didn’t get the message. Right. I don’t, I don’t need this behavior pattern to protect me, uh, anymore. [00:08:33] And like being able to just be curious, that’s all, I, that’s kind of my mental health update is like, I, I have had those opportunities, especially through therapy over the last couple weeks to step outside of the, like the shame cycle and, and beating myself up and, um, thinking about all the ways in which, you know, behavior patterns make things worse for me or for others. [00:08:54] And just to be kind of curious, and when I can step into that space, I’m so much. [00:09:00] Self-compassionate um, and that window is sometimes really short, right? Like you could be curious about yourself, maybe inside the hour of therapy, and then you walk it back into your world and you are not curious anymore. [00:09:14] You’re just mad at yourself or whatever, but just my, my, uh, my gratitude for, um, for people and things and, and, and books and whatever that helped me to step outta myself for a minute and be curious has been, uh, a big deal for mental health over the years and definitely in the last couple weeks, um, otherwise cats before we recorded, I was like, I was actually like, not like running and trying to get ready to record. [00:09:43] I was just sitting on the couch and my cat walked over and just like laid in my lap. And I’m like, this is what you’re fucking supposed to do. When I sit down, come over and lay in my lap and it was so chill and calm. And so I came into this podcast feeling good, but. That’s that’s a mental health update of [00:10:00] sorts. [00:10:00] What about you, [00:10:01] Brett: wait, wait, do you, when you, when you, when you do therapy, do you do, um, video therapy or do you go see people in person. [00:10:10] Jeff: I do video therapy and, and, and something really important about the curiosity piece is I have, for the last several years, my therapy has been with a, a practitioner who can do EMDR, which is a sort of trauma therapy, eye movement therapy that like, um, essentially you go through these interesting, um, cycles where like you’re having normal seeming therapy, you’re kind of identifying an issue or something that’s particularly hard. [00:10:41] Um, I’m gonna do the really quick version cuz I’m not, not licensed. So I can only speak from my experience. So, you know, you start your therapy as you would. Maybe over one or two or three appointments, you identify sort of a, something really sort of crystalline something. That’s like, yeah, this is a, an event or a, an [00:11:00] image in my head that is really sticks with me. [00:11:02] Maybe it’s literally something that’s traumatic or it just maybe something that, um, causes you disturbance. Right. And with EMDR, there’s this kind of interesting, um, thing you do, that’s almost like a dream state a little bit. So the eye movement part is handled on video by literally two dots that just go left and right. [00:11:22] And left and right. And the idea is your eyes just follow them. This is a very old, I mean, a trauma therapy, I think goes back to the seventies. Um, and I’ve used it for some big stuff. Um, and what happens is you identify the most troubling part of the thing you’re thinking of, right? Like what’s the most troubling part. [00:11:41] It could be, you know, an image. Uh, it could be, um, a thought, right. And you sort of like lay that out. And then you’re asked to sort of, you’re asked to like come up with a negative, um, cognition. Like what’s a negative statement that you feel is true about you when you imagine yourself in this situation. [00:11:59] Right. [00:12:00] Um, I am da, da, da, right? We all have, I am statements that are just things we’d rather not even say on a podcast, but we, we believe to be true about ourselves. Right. Um, and then you go through, um, this kind of series of, you know, all right, I’m gonna, you know, the, the therapist will do the eye movement thing. [00:12:18] It can be done with fingers. It can be done with lights, uh, in your hand, if you’re in person and it can be done as I do it online, um, with just these two dots that bounce back and forth. And you’re just, the idea is just sit with it, sit with whatever the last kind of feeling you had was. And they do that for about, you know, 30 seconds, maybe a minute, What are you feeling? [00:12:39] You know, you kind of just, you go through this like, um, repetitive thing where it’s like, you’re working your way into this image and what are you feeling? What are you thinking about? And. And this is the curiosity, right? It’s like it, it says, okay, so this is the thing you’re really stuck on this one image. [00:12:54] Right. Um, now let’s just like go inside that image as like deeply as you’re [00:13:00] comfortable going. And you go through this cycle of like eye movement. Okay. What are you feeling that usually leads to something slightly new? Uh, okay. Let’s go with that. And, you know, eye movement, and it’s just this nice, really nice cycle and my experience of it. [00:13:15] And that’s the best I can explain it, but others could do a good job. My experience of it is whatever I’ve brought to EMDR as something I need to work on. And it could be something like a major trauma. Or it could be. I mean, I, I once brought a certain kind of nightmare that I had repetitively, um, and, and whatever you bring to it, it just gives you the space to just be curious about it. [00:13:38] And when you’re curious about it, in my experience, I always end up coming out on the other side, understanding it in a very different way than I did going in. Um, and so anyway, I do therapy by video and I do EMDR two things that I didn’t think would be possible therapy by video and EMDR by video before the pandemic. [00:13:56] But I’ve really loved it. [00:13:59] Brett: Yeah, I’ve been [00:14:00] like the, the brief foray I did into video therapy. Uh, it was, it was productive. I, I didn’t hate it. Uh, Felt like I would ha I would be more open and comfortable in like, you know, on a couch, uh, in someone’s office. But, um, I was just curious, uh, if, if it worked for you, so that’s good [00:14:23] Jeff: well, what I dislike is, um, I almost always have to do it in my office. And it’s just hard to go from work to therapy, to [00:14:31] Brett: right. Yeah. Same, [00:14:33] Jeff: seat and the same, you know, like that. I don’t like that. [00:14:37] Brett: Yeah. That was my, that was pretty much that’s what bugged me too. [00:14:42] Jeff: Yeah. [00:14:42] Brett: like I, I would, I would feel like opening up more if I weren’t also in the place where I conducted all of my business. [00:14:50] Jeff: Mm-hmm [00:14:50] Brett: Um, anyway, anyway, [00:14:53] Jeff: yeah. And I recommend finding a way to switch locations if you can. I can’t always, but it makes a big difference for me. [00:14:59] Brett: could [00:15:00] take my phone out into the woods and have a therapy session. [00:15:03] Jeff: Christina, how about [00:15:05] Brett: Yeah. [00:15:05] Christina: Yeah, no, it’s actually funny. We’re talking about this because as soon as, uh, our podcast ends today, I’m actually, uh, gonna be talking to my shrink, um, and, uh, having my, my monthly, um, appointment with him. Um, but even though I’ve been seeing him for like 20 years, except for like the period of time that I ghosted him, um, more for more than a decade, like I’ve been seeing him, um, Remotely, like we’ve done stuff over the phone, so I don’t even have in person stuff. [00:15:33] So it’s interesting. Kind of like hearing that experience. I think, uh, like I obviously wouldn’t be able to do the sort of, um, uh, some of the, the therapy that you do, um, uh, Jeff, where you need to see someone and like, you know, they’re, they’re looking in your eyes and, and you’re having that type of, of, of like, you know, that type of therapy. [00:15:51] I wouldn’t be able to do over the phone. Uh, and he’s not really technic. Technically savvy enough for us to do a FaceTime or Skype thing [00:15:58] Jeff: a thing [00:15:59] Christina: that that’s like, [00:16:00] not him, like he’s in his seventies and, and, you know, he’s very, very good at what he does, but like not a tech guy. And so, uh, so yeah, so it’s interesting cuz I also have dealt with that over the years of like, okay, am I in a space where I can feel like I can be free to actually say what I wanna say? [00:16:17] And, and sometimes that’s meant, you know, walking around outdoors and doing other things. I actually, this was nice back. Um, I, uh, I worked at Microsoft proper. I had an office and I had a private office for most of my time there. And that actually wasn’t terrible. A, it was nice because I could podcast from it. [00:16:37] If I had to, like, I could either go in earlier or late and like had a nice like podcasting space, but B it was honestly nice sometimes because you know, like you’ve got the door closed and you’ve got something else going on. You know, somebody sees you on a phone call, like they’re not gonna bug you. And, you know, You can kind of like feel a little more free than you might, like if you’re at home and there are people, you know, around, you know, your [00:17:00] family and stuff, which can make things a little more awkward, um, when you’re doing a therapy appointment, right? [00:17:05] Like, not that there’s like, not that anybody’s like judging or listening in or whatever, it’s just, you don’t always feel as free to be able to be open in that way. [00:17:13] Jeff: for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, man. So you do yours by phone and this is someone you’ve known since you were a kid, probably. Right? Like got it. [00:17:25] Christina: I was like 18. Um, and, um, and so I trust him a lot and he does, you know, like, uh, you know, medicine, but also does, you know, like normal therapy. He’s, he’s like a rare, like, you know, shrink who also does like, like therapy. And there have been times in my life where I’ve definitely, um, uh, gone to him more frequently than monthly. [00:17:46] It’s been, it’s been monthly for a while and sometimes I have to do it more frequently. I am gonna go on a tangent. Now my mental health is, is incidentally. It seems pretty fine. I am annoyed with this though. So apparently the DEA [00:18:00] just passed some new thing where to fill like, uh, like certain types of, of schedule, like, you know, two or schedule three drugs or whatever. [00:18:07] Like you have to have like the, if it’s out of state, like your home address has to be on the script and the birth date and all this other stuff. And it totally fucked me because I went to get my Dexter. And they gave me this thing. It apparently went into effect on, on July 26th. And they’re like, yeah, sorry, we can’t fill your, your meds for you because it doesn’t have this stuff on it. [00:18:29] And it has to be written by the doctor. And I’m like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, and then it was at a, doctor’s like a, I couldn’t, I don’t feel like I’d be confident in forging his, um, handwriting and, and style. Be which look, I, it, it, for certain doctors, I would totally have like, we’re all, we’re all friends with this podcast. [00:18:47] I would do it, but also like the area, like if I were in like one of the rich neighborhoods, maybe it’d be fine. But in this case I’m like, I don’t wanna be like, somebody think I’m like a drug seeker. I’m like, no, I’m actually just trying to get my fucking pills filled. So, so [00:19:00] now I’m, I’m in like this frustrating thing where, um, I’m glad I have a call with him. [00:19:04] And a little bit, actually, I was supposed to have a call with him last week. It, I would’ve been really pissed if he’d written me scripts last week that I, and mailed off that I wouldn’t have been able to use, but I’m like gonna be running low on meds. I’m leaving for Atlanta on Thursday. Cause my mom’s birthday is next week. [00:19:20] So I’m hoping what I’m gonna have him do is just write it out, put all the shit that he has to put on it, according to the da sheds and then, um, uh, have him mail it to my parents house. [00:19:33] Jeff: Oh my God. [00:19:34] Brett: uh, [00:19:35] Jeff: That sucks. [00:19:36] Brett: Yeah, good luck. [00:19:38] Christina: Yeah. That’s just the downside of like having an out-of-state shrink. Like if you were in state, it would be a different thing. But, but when it’s out of state, there are these different things. And apparently like it’s never been, um, discussed before. Like it’s literally like they print something out and they gave it from, from Walgreen’s. [00:19:53] It’s dated 7 26 it’s like select field leaders. The drug enforcement administration has recently rescinded previous [00:20:00] guidance that allowed pharmacists to modify or add missing elements to controlled substance prescriptions. Because in the past, like the pharmacist could add that stuff effective immediately, all controlled substance prescriptions, all elements required by 21 C four, blah, blah, blah. [00:20:13] Must be present on the prescription when it’s received, like just complete and utter bullshit. [00:20:19] Brett: what problem is this solving? [00:20:21] Christina: It’s not, that’s what I’m saying. It’s like, look, if you’re, because here’s the thing, like if you, if, if I guess that they’re trying to be like, oh, well, if you’re getting somebody out of state to write you a, I mean, I, I exact, I don’t know what they’re doing, cuz I’m like, if you are really that hard up for it, you’re just going to buy it on the street. [00:20:38] Brett: Right. Yeah. [00:20:39] Christina: you’re just going to buy it on the street and, [00:20:42] Brett: and making things harder for people to get prescriptions. It’s just gonna make more people buy it on the [00:20:46] Christina: 100%. No, that, that that’s the thing with this. I’m like, okay, well, thank you very much for like, making this really more complicated than it should be. And, and just like making me feel like I’ve done something wrong when again, like they said, oh, the [00:21:00] DEA has rescinded, you know, previous guidance. [00:21:03] It’s like, but it’s also one of those things, like, could I have had an email Walgreens? I don’t know, you know, cuz this literally this happened like 10 [00:21:11] Jeff: dude, Walgreens is, I mean, I get all my stuff to Walgreens. It’s such a mysterious black hole. What do you know? And what do you not know? I don’t understand. [00:21:19] Christina: right. [00:21:20] Brett: so. My, my doctor, just to talk about Walgreens for a second. My doctor accidentally called in two of my scripts to Walgreens instead of my usual pharmacy. And, um, immediately like Walgreens contacted me to, to clarify some things and let me know when I could pick it up. And then like, uh, I just let it be. [00:21:45] I was like, fine. Okay. Uh, I let it be for a month. And then like a week before my scripts were due, they like called to like, make sure that like, uh, the, to call to renew any scripts that needed to be renewed [00:22:00] and to, uh, and just to verify that they would be ready to pick up. And these are services that I have never had available through my, my mom and pop pharmacy that I usually use. [00:22:10] And I gotta say it was it’s nice. [00:22:14] Christina: Okay. It here here’s, what’s even better. They’ll send you text messages when you need to refill, and then you can use the app or the website and just like, have it, have it go through. It is really nice. I, um, my favorite pharmacist of all time, she, she left, but she was, uh, like the, the head pharmacist at, at Publix. [00:22:30] Um, when I lived in Atlanta for a long time, Ray, who more than. Did some shady shit to make sure I had my, my meds and that stuff was covered when insurance wasn’t wanting to cover certain things like, like gray was the shit, but I will have to [00:22:43] Brett: why I go to the mom and pop [00:22:45] Christina: totally, totally. I, I agree. I was gonna say, well, cuz Publix, obviously, you know, big supermarket chain, you might not, you’re probably not familiar with it, but it’s a big supermarket chain in the, in the south, um, in Georgia and especially Florida.[00:23:00] [00:23:00] Um, that was me rolling my eyes saying Florida. Uh, but, but this is like, can typically be like the benefit, like. Get a good relationship with some of those pharmacies. I don’t have a good pharmacist here. Um, in Seattle I did at the Walgreens that was on campus, but I can’t go to that one. I mean, I could, but I, I can’t really go to that one anymore since I, I don’t work at Microsoft proper, so I don’t, I can’t use their, their health clinic now, but there was a Walgreens on campus. [00:23:26] It was great, but you’ve understood. Like you might not get the, the, the love and care, but you get like the ability. You get so many benefits, like they’re, they’re gonna like take care of you and, and, and prescribe things. Plus I will say the one nice thing, like, even though I agree, like it’s a, it’s a black hole of stuff. [00:23:46] The great thing with Walgreens is that if it’s not like a controlled substance or whatever, you can, you can like move that shit to any Walgreens in the freaking country. Any Dwayne Reed, any Bartels, like whatever millions of things they own, you can just like, move it over and be [00:24:00] like, I’m in this city and I’m picking this up now. [00:24:02] It’s pretty. [00:24:03] Brett: I, I once ran out of meds, uh, out of, out of my ADHD meds while I was in San Francisco. And, um, I had the prescription, I actually had the written prescription, but it was from Minnesota and I had to go to, uh, six or seven different pharmacies in San Francisco, uh, before CBS finally, they were like, oh yeah, let let’s just call your pharmacist at home. [00:24:33] And they called and they verified everything and they filled it for me. But holy shit, that was, that was a lot of walking. Uh, [00:24:41] Christina: I bet. Especially cuz especially cuz like a lot of Hills, you know, lot, lot of places where you’re trying to find it. Yeah. [00:24:48] Brett: And I was staying at the Mosser. [00:24:50] Christina: Oh yeah, yeah, [00:24:51] Brett: Uh, and they had like an on-call doctor and that was where I started. And, and he was like, cuz I was taking, I think [00:25:00] 40 milligrams of focal in a day at the time. Um, and, and the doctor was like, I can help you out with a few, but that is way too many. You and he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t fill the script. [00:25:14] So [00:25:14] Christina: Totally. [00:25:15] Brett: the, the adventure began. [00:25:18] Jeff: Can I tell you little quirk about my Walgreens? Uh, well, first of all, in Minneapolis, after George Floyd was murdered, um, some opportunistic folks decided to just start raiding all the pharmacies as part of the. Uprising and, or like sort of the, the ripple effects of the uprising. And so every Walgreens in my area was Lood. [00:25:41] Most of ’em were burned and, um, , I’d not gotten my prescriptions ahead of time. And so I now have this tendency to try to, if I can get like three months worth of my prescription, cuz I don’t know when, while my pharmacies are gonna disappear, but my actual Walgreens, which I am so loyal [00:26:00] to, even though my wife has been trying to get us to switch across the street to this grocery store, uh, got shot up about a year ago, somebody was trying to shoot through the Bulletproof window to get in and, and, and you know, do the thing and there’s so they got a lot of the framings. [00:26:15] If familiar driving up to a Walgreen’s like a big window, then you got the drawer that comes out. You got a speaker that never really works that. Great. Anyhow, these fucks shout out that speaker. There are bullet holes that I can put my finger through in the framing and fucking Walgreens took until about two weeks ago to fix that speaker. [00:26:33] So we were having to like, and let me tell you, I know a little bit about electronics. That’s like a $3 speaker. And, and so we were having to communicate with them through the drawer. They’d open the drawer and like stick their face in the drawer. [00:26:47] Brett: oh, [00:26:47] Jeff: that’s the south Minneapolis Walgreens problem. [00:26:50] Brett: speaking of uprisings, [00:26:53] kinda, I want to, I want to talk about Woodstock 99. However, [00:26:56] Christina: I was gonna say that that’s a really good segue. [00:26:59] Brett: want to give [00:27:00] a brief recap of max stock before we get to Woodstock 99. Um, so max stock, it was a couple weeks ago now. Uh, it was, it was fun. It was very small this year. Uh, it was about a third, the size that it had been, uh, last time that there was an in-person max stock. [00:27:17] It’s been a couple years due to the, you know, pandemic. Um, but first of all, Aaron, uh, who’s been on the show before a friend of the show, Aaron Dawson [00:27:27] Christina: Front of the pod. Aaron Dawson. Yes. [00:27:29] Brett: best presentation of, of the weekend. Uh, like there’s this tendency at a conference like that, to talk about your favorite apps and every white guy on the, on the docket talks about their favorite apps for doing this or that. [00:27:46] Uh, and, and it, you get audience interaction. Everyone wants to talk about their favorite apps and, and it’s just the easy go-to thing. And Aaron didn’t do any of that shit. She did a presentation where she talked about, [00:28:00] uh, how to make music using logic or garage band to soundtrack your videos, uh, without having any musical [00:28:11] Christina: love [00:28:11] Jeff: Awesome. That’s a great one. [00:28:13] Christina: I need to, and, and, and she, she recorded it right? [00:28:16] Brett: she, she record it. Max stack puts it behind a paywall, uh, that you have to get like the digital pass, which I can help you guys get. But that’s a little frustrating for Erin who made the 14 hour drive, uh, to speak at a conference that was pretty low attendance this year, and now doesn’t have a public video. [00:28:37] She can show for it. So I wanna, I wanna see if I can work with, with your organizers [00:28:42] Christina: yeah, yeah. I, I would say so. I mean, cuz I, I, or, and especially like, If they wanna have a paywall for like 30 days or something [00:28:51] Brett: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:28:53] Christina: but, but it shouldn’t be in perpetuity, especially like it, cuz if they’re not paying speakers and, and, and, and, and I get that, it’s like an indie conference and [00:29:00] whatnot, driving 14 hours to come. [00:29:01] It’s a small thing to do that. I don’t know. Like, I, I think that would be something that I [00:29:07] Jeff: Oh, that’s the, I mean, if they’re not paying, I, I have very strong feelings about not paying people. No matter how Indy you are, you can pull together some money to pay someone, right. Like ask your mom. Um, but, but then, then to put it on a, on a paywall, that is a shame. They can’t even make that much money off of it. [00:29:23] Sorry, [00:29:23] Brett: we have, [00:29:24] Jeff: who you are, but. [00:29:25] Brett: we had, we had some, some, some talks, uh, Jay Miller, uh, who happens to be like the only black guy at max stock. Um, Jay Miller, myself, uh, a couple of, uh, people representing the queer community. There was a lot of conversation about what max that could be versus what it is. [00:29:49] Um, and there’s some resistance from the organizers. Uh, and I can’t quite pinpoint what it is that, that there’s, that [00:30:00] he specifically is, is scared of losing. If, if you bring in a committee, if you actually have max sack run by a committee of people representing, you know, a, a more diverse population. And there, I mean, a good portion of the attendees this year were, uh, mug people by which, I mean, 70 plus white guys, like [00:30:27] Jeff: I’ve never heard that term mug people, [00:30:29] Brett: Mac, Mac, user group. [00:30:31] Yeah. Um, which, [00:30:33] Jeff: I just got led in a little deeper. [00:30:35] Brett: which these days skews much older. [00:30:38] Christina: Well, yeah, cuz anybody who’s go well look, cuz anybody who’s gonna go to a user group. Like let’s be honest, like is going to be older cuz. Like, I’ve never, I’ve never purposely gone. I mean, like I I’ve gone to a couple of Matt. Like there was, um, a Omni did a, a Seattle, um, Mac user group thing that I, I went to a few times and then they had layoffs and then I felt bad cuz I was like, well, a lot of [00:31:00] the people that I really liked at Omni don’t work there anymore. [00:31:02] And so that feels awkward if they’re doing stuff like, you know what I mean? Um, but that was nice. That was nice to meet people in the Seattle area and is a big area. But yeah, in general, it it’s like, it goes back to like use net days, I think. Right? Like, isn’t that the whole like mug and lug thing, so [00:31:19] Brett: old, the graveyard persona [00:31:22] is who shows up for [00:31:23] Jeff: Mug and lug Linux, user groups and, and Mac user groups. Oh [00:31:26] Brett: Wait, and, and, and no, no hate for, for that community. That’s fine. I just, I don’t pay to go to a conference, uh, to hang out with those people. I go to hang out. People my age, uh, with similar interests and I mean, it does serve as kind of a, a family reunion of sorts, but it also like max has the potential to be an actual conference, uh, that, that reaches out well, that’s one of the [00:32:00] things [00:32:00] Christina: Well, yeah, [00:32:00] Brett: like there are certain things they need to change. [00:32:03] Christina: well, and maybe they, I mean, you know, the organizers, you can talk with them more, but it might come down to like, I, I, I don’t know. Cause I understand what you’re saying and I, I would be like you, like, I would, it would be good to have it. Like more committee have more open, you know, bring in a more diverse group of participants. [00:32:23] Um, but I can also think that if it’s, if it’s people who you have, who’ve been coming to this thing and what your conference is, is a certain group of people. Who’ve always done things a certain way, even if it’s not expanding, like to your own peril, maybe like, that’s just what it’s going to be. [00:32:38] Brett: that’s just a meetup. And if you’re just gonna have a meetup, call it a meetup. [00:32:42] Christina: I mean, I don’t disagree, but I mean, what, what I’m saying is what you might have to come to terms with is that it’s possible that the idea you have, and the thing you’re thinking of is that if max stock doesn’t wanna do it, then maybe that’s another event. You know what I [00:32:54] Brett: So, so that is absolutely something that’s been on my mind is if, if [00:33:00] max stock isn’t open to reshaping itself, um, I’m happy to keep going to max stock and perpetuity, but I would want to maybe like in Chicago, proper start, uh, like at first a meetup that could become a mini conference, but just a way to bring together all of the people that I would wanna see once a year, uh, and, and have a couple talks, but mostly like social time and just, I, I need to figure out how to make that appealing enough to get people from say California to fly in for a weekend. [00:33:39] Christina: You need to talk to guy English as who you need to talk. [00:33:42] Brett: Yeah. I have a list of, I have a list of people. This is, this is actually, uh, I’ve put a lot of thought into [00:33:48] Christina: No, I’m sure you have I’m I’m I’m sure you have. I’m just saying, cuz like what, what it seems like you’re describing is single 10 and things like that. And, and so which, which was [00:33:57] for, for people who don’t know, which was an amazing conference.[00:34:00] [00:34:00] Brett: If there are like current meetups happening that are big enough, like I’m happy to tack on my ideas to something else that already is established. Uh, so I need to do a little more research and I have a few zoom calls set up with people just to find out like what they’re into, what exists already, uh, without reinventing the wheel. [00:34:24] But anyway, [00:34:25] Jeff: me know. No, let me add one thing ne not on the planning committee. Okay. Chicago is lovely. City lived there. Love it. Great. Like tech community, Minneapolis, hell of a lot cheaper to get to and stay in. [00:34:37] Christina: And also better airport, frankly. [00:34:40] Jeff: better. [00:34:41] Brett: oh my God. Way better airport. [00:34:44] Jeff: tech community. There’re already a couple of good tech conferences that come here every [00:34:47] Brett: Oh, that’s really smart. Yeah. I, [00:34:49] Jeff: that out there. Just don’t go to the Walgreens on HYA waha, cuz they shot up the speaker. [00:34:57] Brett: Yeah, I lean towards Chicago just cuz it’s that’s where we [00:35:00] go for max stock, but you’re right. Minneapolis would be a better choice than Chicago. Um, alright. Alright. I will keep you all posted on progress there. Um, so, uh, last night Christina texted the group and said, uh, please watch this documentary on max stock. [00:35:20] Max [00:35:21] Jeff: next stock Woodstock [00:35:23] Woodstock ’99 [00:35:23] Brett: Woodstock 99 and I had actually already finished it and uh, to watched it in horror. Um, Christina, what did you, uh, what did you wanna, how did you wanna present this? [00:35:36] Christina: Well, okay. So first of all, um, did you ever watch the HBO max documentary on Woodstock from last [00:35:43] Jeff: Okay. Thank you. This is different because fuck that one. And I, I thought we were dealing with the same thing and I was like, I am not gonna watch a movie that a documentary that talks about sexual assault and shows tits for the first five minutes of the documentary. [00:35:58] Brett: Let’s be clear. This [00:36:00] is, this is, this just came out. I believe it was on [00:36:02] Christina: it’s [00:36:02] Jeff: gonna settle down. [00:36:04] I just said tits for the first time online. I couldn’t forgot. Do I say boobies? Do I say, [00:36:09] Brett: there, [00:36:09] Christina: you can say whatever you [00:36:10] Brett: this, this [00:36:12] Jeff: This I wanna see then [00:36:13] Brett: this did have some boobs and they didn’t talk about the rampant sexual assault until the end of the second half of it. So the end, they didn’t talk about exactly how much rape happening. [00:36:27] Jeff: Well, can I just, uh, then, because it’s a serious subject, obviously did, does that something that anybody else like, like, felt like was an issue in the HBO one, because really it was in the first moments, it was in the first five minutes and they do the montage and you know, the voices talking about it and they’re just showing like topless women. [00:36:49] And it’s like, what the fuck are you doing? You’re doing the thing. [00:36:51] Christina: Right. I, I think this one was better than the HBO one in that regard, because the way that it progresses. So it’s three episodes. So it’s, it’s like, you know, I [00:37:00] guess it’s probably two and a half hours. If you were to, to add it all. Um, but they do it in three parts and, and the way that they kind of, you know, tell the story. [00:37:07] A lot of it is, is told through footage that people on the ground were taking. And some people who were, you know, part of the festival, they have talking heads with performers, but also with some of the MTV, you know, people who were there and [00:37:19] Brett: even a couple of attendees BVIs and Butthead on in attendance. [00:37:23] Christina: and Butthead. Oh, my, these, these two guy, these two 16 year olds who were like, one of them seriously, like sounded like he was stoned. [00:37:30] He had a mullet, like genuinely looked like, like, like, like, like live action BVIs, um, [00:37:35] Brett: Totally [00:37:37] Christina: it’s amazing. Um, But no, I think it was better than the HBO one, but I think to tell the story, like you have to, like, they, they went through like day by day, like hour by hour, basically like how the event unfolded. And in that regard, I think that it was okay to not lead with the sexual assault stuff, because that’s not like that happened at the beginning. [00:37:56] Like it started out as this great thing. Everybody’s having an awesome time. [00:38:00] Then it starts to get crazier like the first night with, with corn, right? Where, where, where things start to get a little bit outta control. And then like Bush, Gavin is able to calm things down because he’s a pro and he knows how to handle a crowd, but then they have their first rave and shit kind of gets wild again. [00:38:15] But then the second day, you know, it’s like people start to get a little more, well up a little bit bigger. That’s when you have like li biscuit come in, then you have like, like, you know who Fred Durst. Fuck him. Fuck. Right. Like when he is, you know, doing that thing and, and then you have like, you know, the people literally like commandeering cars and trying to drive through the rave area and like that boy having to like end his rave set and people that is when they first talk about like sexual assault. [00:38:40] And then the third day when it just devolves into chaos. So like, I actually thought that the way that they told the story was really good, because you felt the emotion of. This thing, which seemed like, I think for a lot of people, even people who were there who witnessed a lot, the horror, like they said, like they had a great time. [00:38:58] Like if you weren’t, you [00:39:00] know, somebody who was like a hurt or whatnot, like you could see that it would be this crazy ass thing, but you could still maybe have had good memories with your friends, but how this, this event that was just mishandled by the, the, you know, um, the, the people who were running it, the, the promoters, the fucking fucking criminal, right? [00:39:17] Like they’re, they’re the ones who, you know, really. [00:39:19] Brett: intentionally obtuse in my opinion. [00:39:21] Christina: Absolutely. Absolutely like, like this one fucking promoter, like the guy who’s dead. I don’t give a shit. The guy who created Woodstock fuck off dude. Like he, he, he like, like, he, he can seriously, like, I don’t give a shit, but this other guy who was like the money guy, cuz they’d lost money on Woodstock 94. [00:39:35] And they were like, okay, we gotta make money on this one. And when he’s asked about the sexual assault stuff at the end, He’s like, well, I’m not saying that it’s good, but this was like a small city. And if you look at the number of rapes that happen in a small city, this is actually less than that. And I, and I wanted to reach through the, through the television screen and like kill the guy. [00:39:55] Right. Because it’s just not the response. Um, but,[00:40:00] [00:40:00] Jeff: you docked him instead. [00:40:01] Christina: Well, I mean, you know, but, but, but, but, but what I was, but like, what’s, I wanna get your thoughts. Right. But what I thought was really interesting about it was like a, I was brought back to that time and I remember wanting to go to that concert so badly. [00:40:13] And obviously my parents wouldn’t let me go. Right. There was no way they were gonna let me go, uh, to, to, you know, upstate New York to go to a concert, like never in a million years, I was in high school. I was like 15 or 16. They would never let me go. But I remember watching it and I was brought back to like, The way that it unfolded and the way that, like, not only that they have the pay review, but like MTV was, was playing stuff live and like was reporting on stuff. [00:40:37] And the fact that you saw it as that weekend went on, you saw the same shift that you could feel the crowd have, where it like went from this thing. That was great into this thing. That was just terrible. [00:40:51] Brett: Yeah. I, I feel like in general, the media coverage did not, like, I don’t remember my impression of what I [00:41:00] saw on the news. Matching what I saw in this documentary. I mean, yeah. We all knew it went to shit. We [00:41:07] Christina: Right. We didn’t see all of that. Yeah. Cuz I, cuz I think that they, I don’t think that they knew like, I think that as soon as it was clear, like, like I think that the Sunday stuff, I think it was clear, but I definitely think that like MTV cuz like Anand Lewis who still looks amazing by the way, like she looks fucking fantastic. [00:41:23] She’s interviewed in it because she was, she was um, like she had to leave the beach house and go to fucking Woodstock 99. She was really pissed about that. I don’t blame her. Um, you. She like, they could tell that stuff was like, kind of like getting crazy like that first night, but especially the second day. [00:41:40] And MTV certainly didn’t portray that to anybody watching at home. Like nobody at home knew until the third day when like the fires and shit started. Right. [00:41:48] Brett: they handed out fucking candles, [00:41:50] Christina: idiots were a fucking, and ironically [00:41:53] Jeff: was it for? What were the candles for? [00:41:54] Christina: It was for it, [00:41:55] Brett: a vigil for gun violence. [00:41:57] Christina: violence. They were trying to do a whole Columbine thing. Oh, look [00:42:00] how beautiful it is. [00:42:00] Yeah. So we’re just gonna hand out, um, you know, a hundred [00:42:04] Brett: they still thought this was Woodstock in the sixties. They still thought there was peace and love happening and everyone would settle down and hold onto live flames. [00:42:14] Christina: it’s like in the sixties, they wouldn’t have done that shit. If you’d treated people the way you treated them. Right. Like it was, you know, it, it, it, the what, what, but I remember. Because I think you’re right. I don’t think that people knew how bad it was until the third day. And then when all the footage came afterwards and then everybody, and it was interesting to kind of see like the news division of MTV. [00:42:35] I remember this like their take on it versus, you know, the entertainment part because cuz like MTV news, I remember being pretty critical about it, but yet like Kurt and, and Serena and, and anda were all there. [00:42:49] Brett: Were trying to put this face on it. Um, like they knew things were fucked up and they were trying to be like, well, you know, it’s a [00:42:58] festival and [00:42:59] Christina: Yeah. Cuz they’re [00:43:00] live TV and I, I ki I kind of don’t blame them for that. Like if, if, if you’re like a live host, it’s a little bit different than like the ABC news guy, you know, who was able to kind of be a little bit better about things. But, but I do remember MTV after the fact. [00:43:16] I remember they did a special going into all the horror and like focusing on that. I do remember that I do remember [00:43:23] Brett: don’t remember that. [00:43:24] Christina: yet, and they didn’t cover that in the documentary. But I remember that explicitly, because that was one of the first times I remember like, as a media student thinking, oh, that’s interesting. [00:43:35] Cuz they were promoters of this and they were part of the hype of this. But then there has to be this other section of this organization where they have different standards. Right. Um, But yeah, it’s, it’s a weird thing, right? Where all the news media was kind of complicit in some ways, you [00:43:53] Jeff: Yeah, [00:43:54] Brett: Like during this period in, in my life, I was not at all [00:44:00] interested. I was not the kind of person who would go to Woodstock 99 and I saw the news coverage in passing. Um, I, I knew there were a bunch of people covered in mud at some point, and that there were some fires and I did not realize that the whole goddamn place burned with trucks exploding and people, [00:44:22] Christina: I mean, it’s amazing that nobody died, honestly. [00:44:24] Brett: hon. Yeah, it is amazing that nobody died. It was pure anarchy. [00:44:30] Christina: anarchy. I mean, and it was the thing, like, you know, cuz like 94, I remember the mud and everyone remembers that stuff, but this was so much worse. This was like, they started tearing stuff down like on Saturday, but then like Sunday, they literally burned the place to the fucking ground and. [00:44:47] Brett: the, the PA towers. They took down the food court. They started smashing ATM machines. Oh, sorry, ATMs. [00:44:57] Christina: yeah, [00:44:57] Brett: M the M stands for machine [00:45:00] ATM machine is redundant. [00:45:01] Christina: there. There’s, there’s this, there’s this lady who, who would this, this old lady who was like yelling at, at the kids, trying to get them to clean up, cuz she was like part of the original [00:45:09] Brett: Handing up, trying to hand out garbage bags. [00:45:11] Christina: And, and, and they were like not having her, but she was kind of awesome because she like was like, what is this? [00:45:17] And she was like, this is what we did. This was Woodstock 99. Like, she was like, very clear about, like, about like the, the complicit, um, like of the, of the, you know, organizers and the promoters and this. But, but yeah, I mean, this is, it was true anarchy. It’s amazing. No one died, cuz like you think about, um, uh, Astroworld, which, which happened, um, last year, uh, that where, you know, a couple people died and that from the crush of the crowds and, and that was being broadcast on livestream and people saw kind of this horror and how, how bad that was. [00:45:50] This was so much worse. And it was being broadcast on a paper view that they were charging 60 freaking dollars for a 1999, you [00:45:59] Brett: but [00:46:00] nobody had smartphones. [00:46:01] It would’ve been a very different documentary. If that had [00:46:04] Christina: oh, you’re not, you’re not wrong. Totally totally. But, but, but yet people did have cameras with them and other stuff, but again, this was being broadcast live. I mean, this is still what’s insane to me is that like, you know, uh, there was this one guy, like this was guy actually kind of, you probably appreciate this, Jeff, like there are these, these people who were like videographers, who they, they went back into the chaos because they’re like, we gotta get the shot. [00:46:27] We gotta, like, we gotta record this. We go, [00:46:30] Brett: saw the fire starting. They’re [00:46:31] Christina: Saw the fire starting. They were like, no, we can’t leave. So they like went back into it, which had, I mean, you know, if, fuck, I mean, if you were witnesses, something like that, it would be, [00:46:43] Brett: They, they had already evacuated fat boy slim and all of the camera people were getting ready to evacuate, like run. And they saw this tower starting to come down and this like young journalist, uh, who’s telling the story in the documentary [00:47:00] was like, we can’t miss this. This is something is happening here. [00:47:04] And like FRA boys, man, like that was it’s this mentality. I’m not saying everyone, there was a frat boy, [00:47:12] Christina: no, no, but, [00:47:13] Brett: mentality of like, [00:47:14] Christina: It was well, yeah, I mean, I think it was, I mean, I think that they put it in really good context. It was like the type of music. It was that the machismo that was happening, it was the fact that it was hot is the fact that they were charging ridiculous amounts of, of money even by [00:47:28] Brett: $12 for a bottle of water even now [00:47:31] Christina: Even now would be nuts, especially when they refused to let people bring water in. Like they made people like, like throw away their water bottles when they got into the venue, like just, just terrible stuff. And, um, but, but definitely I think the culture of the time, cuz I remember. You know, going to concerts and going to big festivals, not anything like there was a, there was a concert, it was like at the Atlanta motor Speedway. [00:47:58] And it was, I think the week [00:48:00] before, or two weeks before Woodstock, 99 and many of the same bands at Woodstock, 99 were at this thing, but it was a one day thing instead of a three day thing. And it was. Up until Woodstock on United, it was like the biggest crowd for some sort of concert that had existed. [00:48:15] And it was, it was like over a hundred thousand people. It was like, you know, 150,000 people or something. And I remember crowd surfing in that. And I remember, I remember being groped. I remember, you know, like kind of that whole thing. Right. And like in a way that I hadn’t ever really been like at, at other stuff, like I remember. [00:48:32] So, yeah, I think it was very much kind of, of that time, you know, where just not frat boys, cuz the, a lot of these guys weren’t frat boys just like angry, like entitled [00:48:43] Brett: spring [00:48:43] Christina: spring break, just like white dudes. Right? Like that’s the thing. And that’s did you notice that too Brett? Like it was so fucking white. [00:48:51] Brett: Oh, so wait. Yeah, absolutely. Almost a hundred percent. Um, you, [00:48:56] Jeff: I’m [00:48:57] Brett: by the way, [00:48:57] Jeff: the lineup and it makes that, um, [00:49:00] evident without seeing it. [00:49:01] Brett: You gotta, you gotta feel for Cheryl Crow in this whole situation, [00:49:04] but should, should we try to fit in a gratitude before, uh, Christina has [00:49:10] Jeff: sure. But hold on, I’m looking at the lineup. Where’s Cheryl Crowe in this picture. Oh yeah, here. She’s on Friday east stage about midway through the day before corn. [00:49:19] Brett: Early on early enough to have people yelling, show your tits, but not so late that they were ready to tear down the stage. [00:49:26] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. And Juju was attacked, you know, to, I mean, I thought I feel bad virtual. Well, you know, this was what’s weird too, is that like fucking little fair was also happening that summer. So, you know, I get, I get why you would go to Woodstock 99, but I bet that if they’d, if they thought about it a little bit harder, be like, you know what, even if this is gonna be huge, I’m I’m I’m headlining little fair. [00:49:47] Fuck. Fuck. This thing. [00:49:49] Brett: yeah. In, in retrospect they probably did. [00:49:53] Jeff: anytime you look at the, the lineup and you go, I’m kind of opening for corn or insane clown posse or limb biscuit. [00:50:00] That’s not my place. I have not. That is not me saying they should not have been there so that they didn’t get, I’m not, that’s not my point. I’m just looking at if they had flipped these lineups. [00:50:08] Cause a lot of the midday lineups are like pretty chill. The late, the late night lineups are like, oh [00:50:14] Christina: the thing. It, it, well, that was the thing. Like, I think the first night was probably the only night they nailed it cuz they had corn go who killed it, you know? And, and, and, and they interviewed him. What’s his space from corn who was actually seems like a really cool guy. Um, but, but then they had Bush have to follow up, which, which sucked for Bush a little bit, but Gavin is a pro and like, Calmed the crowd down. [00:50:38] Like it didn’t, it didn’t go off the rails, which, you know, like, because there was a ton of pent up energy and it could have gone really badly that first night, but, but he was able to, you know, like with his hotness, like kind of like bring it, bring, bring the [00:50:53] Brett: Okay. So I never, I never followed Bush and I had actually never seen, uh, this, this [00:51:00] Gavin guy until this documentary. He is [00:51:02] Jeff: seems like a good [00:51:02] Brett: he, he is a beautiful man. [00:51:04] Christina: well, okay. Well, [00:51:05] I mean, other. [00:51:06] Brett: in 1999, [00:51:08] Christina: other than cheating on Gwen Stefani with the, with the, um, babysitter, uh, with the nanny guys know about that they were, they, they were married for [00:51:16] Jeff: They didn’t tell me about that. [00:51:17] Christina: They were married for 20 years and she found out because of, uh, he was using like the family iPad to like send iMessages to the nanny and then like, Bro can’t can’t use the same, um, you know, apple ID when you’re like sexting your nanny on like the family iPad. [00:51:33] Anyway, she’s she’s now she’s now married to, to one of the boys dudes. She’s fine. But, but, uh, but yeah, they were the ultimate power couple though. Cause imagine like, like two of the most beautiful people on earth, like, you know, Gwen Stefani and, and Gavin Rossdale. [00:51:49] Brett: all [00:51:49] Jeff: Wow. All [00:51:51] Grapptitude [00:51:51] Brett: All right, Christina, just in case you have to leave early, go first. [00:51:56] Christina: Okay. Um, so my [00:52:00] gratitude. All right. Um, I’m gonna talk about, have we talked, have I mentioned tables plus before. [00:52:11] Brett: No, uh, by the way, by the way, I just wanna make it a rule that we can repeat shit. If like, if new, if new versions come out or we just have like excessive gratitude for some like we’re. [00:52:23] Jeff: have excessive [00:52:23] Brett: cuz I will forget. I will forget, but yeah. Tell us about table plus. [00:52:27] Christina: So table plus is a really great, uh, uh, sequel, um, kind of a go kind of app it’ll it deals with my SQL deals with post grads. It deals with a bunch of stuff. It’s really, really good. It’s part of set app, but you can also buy it directly from, um, their, their website. They also have a windows and a Linux version. [00:52:44] It’s kept up to date really well. And there used to be a couple of good kind of sequel visualization apps for, for Mac OS, if you wanted to use, like, you know, like a, a database manager that, that wasn’t like a, you know, a gooey web thing. [00:53:00] Um, but most of them haven’t been updated and, and aren’t, um, still kept up this one. [00:53:05] Um, they, they handle their issues on, um, on, on GitHub, which is nice. It’s not open source, but, but the, the issues are handled on GitHub, which I really do appreciate. And this is, um, I’m, uh, trying to fix my website, which has been offline for a long time, uh, because of my fucking web host. And so I’ve been going through some stuff and this has been really, really helpful. [00:53:25] Just in terms of app, like a, a way to, to deal with having to make a bunch of changes to a bunch of, um, um, tables and databases, but it works with my SQL works with, um, uh, Amazon, uh, Redshift SQL light, um, Oracle Mongo. Yeah. So, so I’m, I’m a big fan. Um, it, like I said, it it’s, um, you can get it, uh, directly from a, a table plus.com, but you can also, it’s part of set up, which is really nice. [00:53:52] So if you’re a set subscriber, which we, we, they are not sponsoring this, but, uh, we are all fans. um, [00:54:00] wanna give, wanna give that a shout? Cause I’ve used it for a long time and, um, they’re also really responsive on Twitter and on GitHub, if you have like requests or other things, like they’re really, really responsive devs. [00:54:09] So I wanna give them a shout out because this has been helping me with, with dealing with some, um, belated old crafty web shit. [00:54:19] Jeff: I’ve been using, um, table plus for about 10 years, I think. And I’d totally have a wandering eye for other, um, similar apps and I have never, ever been pulled away from table plus. That’s [00:54:35] Brett: It’s good stuff. I agree. [00:54:38] Jeff: fantastic. Who else? What are you doing? You open a pack of smokes over there. Can’t tell what you’re doing. Okay. A screwdriver. [00:54:46] I understand that happens in the [00:54:47] Brett: My, my keyboard has a leg that’s loose and it’s [00:54:50] Jeff: No, you go and you go and fix your fucking keyboard. I’ll just talk [00:54:55] Brett: yeah. Tell [00:54:56] Jeff: um, mine is, mine is an app called [00:55:00] ruin ruin R O O N. So I have this thing where I’m, I’m just looking always for the right music player. So I obviously have used apple music and iTunes before forever. [00:55:12] Never liked iTunes, except for some of its interface. If I didn’t like what it did to my files and always frustrated me. And I finally decided to take a total audio nerd jump, and I still have a ton of my CDs. It mostly I’ve kept the ones that like. Really mean something to me as I’ve watched over the years, as I’ve watched them either disappear from streaming or never show up. [00:55:34] And so I have this, like, I need to keep the ones I love, cuz I never know if they’re gonna be gone. And when, of course I could buy ’em on eBay anytime. But anyway, what I’ve decided to do before getting rid of them possibly is upload all of them as flack files, which. The audio nerd file, uh, format. And, um, I’m partly doing that because my father is my father who retired on a public teacher’s salary. [00:55:59] [00:56:00] Um, but is like a master at electronics, um, is able to sort of buy all of this high end audio gear when it’s not quite working and fix it. And so he has this, what is probably like a $40,000 stereo system and one day I’ll inherit it. So I might as well have my CD files, my digital files in a good format. [00:56:16] And so he kind of talked me into it. Um, and so once I did that, I had the problem of like, okay, so now how do I use these files? How can I like interface with these files? Because what’s actually cool to be an old man for a minute. What’s cool about having a CD collection still is like, It’s the last true curation experience of my of my like regular life. [00:56:37] So vinyl is something that was, you know, I have tons of records and it is a curation thing, but vinyl is something where like I’ve bought records cuz they were $3 or whatever. But my CDs were always like very intentional, you know? And so it’s kind of fun to have uploaded all of them about halfway through and have this like curated library. [00:56:56] It’s not for everyone, but it’s definitely for me. But the problem was how do I [00:57:00] see other music that streams alongside these and that is ruin R O O N is like this high end audio app that. Does not satisfy even half of my needs, but is the only thing that satisfies at least half of them. And what it does primarily is I use I’ve started to use title, which I really love also an audio nerd move. [00:57:21] And so it, it can let my title and, and my flack files live next to each other in one interface. And it also has some bananas, uh, audio features in terms of EQing and doing all kinds of shit to make like a, you know, particular pair of headphones or whatever sound. Right. So I’m just having a lot of fun with it. [00:57:40] Now I look, and I see, I have one day left on my free trial, so I don’t know yet if I’m gonna [00:57:45] Christina: I was gonna say, cuz [00:57:46] it, cuz it’s like $10 a month or something. [00:57:49] Jeff: $10 a month. And then, you know, on top of that, title’s expensive, you know? [00:57:53] Christina: Okay. So, so I’m gonna recommend that you talk to fed Rico, uh, fiche, because he’s been doing some similar [00:58:00] stuff with hi, like he’s, he’s put everything inplex and other things you should re you should read some of the stuff on Mac stories and see some of his take. Um, and maybe even like DM him. [00:58:10] That’s that’s my advice to you because this looks great, but if it doesn’t do everything you want it to do, and it’s $10 a month, I mean, [00:58:18] Jeff: know, but like at the same time, like music is for me, [00:58:21] like I’m so such an obsessive, like it’s like kind of the one thing that’s worth spending money on for me. It’s like, I, I am so completely in love with music always. Wow. You just switched into pink headphones. Oh, [00:58:36] Brett: She’s like, she’s on the phone [00:58:37] Christina: Hey doc. Hello? Yes. Sorry about that. [00:58:41] Brett: Oh my God. That would be amazing. I think I, I don’t know how okay. She’s on mute now. Okay. Christina is out. Uh, sorry. Um, [00:58:59] Jeff: [00:59:00] gonna be almost like couples therapy for podcast hosts [00:59:02] Brett: that was gonna, yeah, that was gonna be interesting. Uh, Jeff, have you heard of retro badge? [00:59:07] Jeff: No [00:59:08] Brett: Uh, it’s this app from flying meat who also makes acorn. [00:59:12] Jeff: meat. That sounds like an awful scenario. [00:59:14] Brett: Uh, he, it was named after he’s a rock climber. Gus is, and I believe flying meat is a reference to a specific, uh, like cliff, uh, on a climbing route that deer are known to fling themselves off of. [00:59:30] Um, but anyway, retro batch is this image, hand image, manipulation automation app. [00:59:39] Jeff: Ooh. This is cool. [00:59:40] Brett: You get like these, you get a grid and you drag nodes onto it with things like read this folder of image, uh, images, uh, resize, every image to this dimension, crop it to this output JPEG and a, and a PNG file. [00:59:56] Jeff: The interface reminds me of how Alfred’s workflows are built. [00:59:59] Brett: [01:00:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Node based node based development of a workflow. Um, and then it can get like that alone is worth the price. Just like I have, for example, I have a template for designing header images for my blog and, and I put my, like the focal point of the header goes into a certain part of the grid. [01:00:23] And then I run it through, I, I output a large JPEG and I run it through retro batch and it crops down and makes Twitter images, Facebook images, uh, two X and one X blog images and large and small. And it outputs them all from this one image that I save outta my [01:00:44] Jeff: That’s great. [01:00:45] Brett: Um, yeah, it’s amazing. Plus, you can get deep, like you can automate with apple script, you can write plugins with JavaScript, uh, screenshot, SIM link clipboards, like in [01:01:00] addition to all of the transforming and converting that it can do it is topnotch. [01:01:05] Jeff: I just downloaded it. That is awesome. [01:01:07] Brett: I’ve been on it since the beta, it costs, it’s like $20. It’s super affordable for what it, for the power it [01:01:16] Jeff: like a one time thing. [01:01:18] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Just like straight up $20. Oh, okay. I just went to the buy page and it says we’re celebrating, flying meets 20th anniversary by lowering or raising the price of everything to $20. So I can’t remember what it costs normally, but now is the [01:01:36] Jeff: that’s genius. Wait, this is [01:01:38] Brett: Oh yeah. It’s it’s normally 30. So right now you can get it for $20. [01:01:42] Jeff: app is not 20 years old, but flying meat is 20 [01:01:44] Brett: Correct. Correct. [01:01:46] Jeff: So how, what did flying meat do in the oh, acorn? [01:01:50] Brett: acorn is the, uh, the long, long running acorn was around long before pixel Mader, long before [01:02:00] affinity like acorn, if you needed to do image, editing on a Mac without buying Photoshop, uh, acorn was where you went [01:02:09] Jeff: The name flying meet comes from a fun rock climb in Missouri. Uh, ready. The climb is named after an unfortunate deer that jumped off the top witnessed by the fellow who first found the climb as he was going up it and thus it was named flying beat. That’s a good bit. [01:02:28] Brett: uh, I had pizza with Gus in San Francisco once and he told me this story and I had forgotten the details, but I still recall it had to do with a deer flying off of a cliff. [01:02:40] Jeff: it’s good. And it almost seems like flying meat is like Gus Gus’s wife and Gus’s daughter, but. [01:02:50] Brett: I believe they, they do like PR and customer support with him. [01:02:54] Jeff: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Cool. I’ll check that out. That looks amazing. Actually looks [01:03:00] far preferable to doing it with, um, shortcuts, which are still so kind of annoying to [01:03:05] Brett: man. I, I got into shortcuts this weekend, cuz I added shortcut commands to bunch. Uh, bunch can now bunch can call shortcuts, send text, and receive responses from shortcuts. [01:03:18] Jeff: Damn. [01:03:19] Brett: That you can then apply to variables and use in various ways. But, uh, as I hadn’t gotten into shortcuts yet, uh, I’m an automator guy. [01:03:28] Everything I have is written an automator, it fit my needs. If I didn’t, if I wasn’t using automator, I was using tools like keyboard, moisture, et cetera. Um, but then I found out you can just drag an automate or workflow into shortcuts and it will turn it into a shortcut [01:03:42] Jeff: Oh really? [01:03:43] Brett: Uhhuh. And, and 90% of the ones I’ve tried worked great. [01:03:48] Um, had some issues with ones that rely on Ruby scripting, um, and, uh, the using the system Ruby was different [01:04:00] than my ability to use what en returns. But anyway, um, I’m finally getting in shortcuts is better than automator. Uh, just the fact that you have loops [01:04:11] Jeff: Oh, I don’t, I don’t dislike it. I just find that sometimes what I wanna do by the time I’ve achieved it, I’m like, this just feels clunky. I don’t really, if it breaks, I won’t know why I is how I feel. I don’t know that that’s fair. I just, you [01:04:25] Brett: yeah. No, it’s everything’s fragile. I mean, anything in automation is fragile, but anyway. All right. Yeah, this was good. I’m sorry. Christina had to leave us, but some things are more important. I understand. [01:04:39] Jeff: She kind of began and ended this one with the mental health corner. Let’s just, uh, applaud her for that. [01:04:46] Brett: right, man. Oh, you know what? Let’s let’s recap. Let’s recap. What have we talked about today? We talked about, we talked about we get your mental health corner. [01:04:57] Jeff: Mm-hmm talked about being curious, [01:05:00] talked about hypomania versus mania, [01:05:04] Brett: Uh, pharmacies, uh, different Walgreens specifically. Uh, we got into, we talked a little bit about Macstock and the future of, of a small conference. Uh, we got into the Woodstock 99 documentary on Netflix. We actually spent a good amount of time talking about [01:05:22] Jeff: And I was, I was happy to talk about it once I realized it wasn’t the HBO documentary, which I have real problems with. [01:05:29] Brett: and then, and then we got, we got your Grapptitude. We got, we got some great picks and, and Christina had to ditch out before the end, but she had table plus it was a, it was a good episode, everyone should everyone, everyone who’s hearing this little bit as just a clip, you should tune into the episode. It was worth it. [01:05:49] Jeff: Tune in, [01:05:51] Brett: Tune in, get some sleep. Jeff. [01:05:53] Jeff: some sleep, get some sleep.

Brett is traveling and Jeff has some questions about Christina’s journey from American Idol to GitHub. Sponsor Show Links How to be a Gawker commenter Tough love: Gawker finds making it harder for comments to be seen leads to more (and better) comments Panic Playdate VS Code Server Playdate SDK Join the Community See you on Discord! Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Overtired 292 [00:00:00] Christina: [00:00:03] You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren, Brett Terpstra is indisposed this week. We decided to give him the week off, but person who is not indisposed and is here with me is, uh, my good pal, Jeff sovereigns. Gunzel Jeff, how are you? [00:00:18] Jeff: I’m good. Not indisposed for once. Uh I’m great. Thank you. How are you? [00:00:23] Christina: I’m good. I’m good. I got to spend, uh, time yesterday with, uh, some friends of mine who I haven’t seen in a while. Um, one is visiting from out of town and another, she lives nearby, but we just, she’s far enough away that I don’t see her that often. And so I gotta hang out with, um, her and her husband and her baby, and I got to go to a park and go on swings. [00:00:42] I hadn’t been on a swing in probably 20 years, so that was fun. That was really fun. Um, and, uh, yeah, no, I’m good. Um, so, uh, we, we actually, for, for listeners, we recorded like three days ago. So this is like, it you’re hearing it a week [00:01:00] later, but we recorded like three days ago. So, um, what’s been going on with you over the last little bit. [00:01:06] Jeff how’s how’s the COVID recovery and everything. Uh, the, the back to life after the, the road trip and everything going. [00:01:12] Jeff: COVID recovery is good. Back to life is good. We tried to put in a new like vanity and medicine cabinet and stuff in the bathroom today, and none of them really work. So we’re sitting on top of a lot of stuff that we really just need to return and replace. So that’s a little like frustrating. Um, but so otherwise since then, I don’t know. [00:01:34] I’ve just been kind of trying to get my feedback on the ground after my trip and the COVID before it. So how about you? [00:01:40] Christina: Um, I’m good. I’m I’ve been, yeah, again, I just, you know, had like work stuff and, uh, and like I said, I, I went to a park with a baby, which was really fun. So [00:01:48] Jeff: a baby. That should be a activity you can choose any day. I. [00:01:51] Christina: I agree what was funny because we were like having this conversation, we were like, why don’t they have like playgrounds for adults because playgrounds are freaking [00:02:00] fun. Like, you know, like, like big like adult slides and, and, you know, uh, seesaws and swings and, and bouncy castles. And, you know, like, there’s, you, you could have like other stuff too, where people could like, turn it into CrossFit stuff, I guess. [00:02:15] But like, you know, like there’s, you could have rules, like, okay, it’s indoors. Cause we don’t want the bugs, but like, you know, so the park we were at was act absolutely outdoors, but you know, you could, you could have rules like, okay, you can’t bring alcohol cuz we don’t want the liability issue. But like, why not just like have like more than like a David busters, but like a full on like playground type of situation. [00:02:35] Like I think that that would be, that would be for me, I would, I would much prefer that to like the normal gym. I’m not even gonna lie. [00:02:42] Jeff: What’s as you were talking, I, I had this, I was trying to kind of picture it. And one of the things that happens at a park for kids that I would actually enjoy as an adult is how kids can be hanging out at the picnic table. And then they can decide to just run off and do a thing on their own, or do a thing with one other person. [00:02:59] Then they come [00:03:00] back to the picnic table for a bit. That’s just kind of a good model for an introvert, uh, to be socially, [00:03:06] Christina: Exactly. Exactly. Like you could still, you could have like, like, like the, the picnic table of whatever, you know, and people are like, yeah, I’m gonna go to the climbing wall now, or I’m gonna go in the swings and then you come back and like, I’m gonna hang out with my friends, you know? And it’s like completely cool. [00:03:19] Jeff: Yeah. Just someone just needs someone to keep the juice boxes cold. [00:03:22] Christina: exactly. So, so I’m gonna be working on a business plan for, for my adult park idea. Um, adult, not adult park, but adult playground idea. And, uh, also like in addition to, to the no alcohol, no sex stuff, because that’s no, again, liability stuff. Yep. Have a code of conduct and be like, look, if you meet people and you like, like each other, that’s awesome. [00:03:48] But like, don’t, don’t fuck at the adult playground. Like [00:03:51] Jeff: that’s when you upgrade to the mall [00:03:53] Christina: exactly. [00:03:54] Jeff: or a parking lot or [00:03:55] Christina: A parking lot or like yeah. Or yeah, [00:03:57] Jeff: you wanna get on to. Yeah. All right. [00:04:00] And all the other people can hang out. Just slide, stop, slide. Stop. Love it. All right. I’m in. You need, like, what do you need? 20 bucks. 40 bucks. Get you started. [00:04:09] Christina: yeah, sure. That, that, that that’ll definitely be enough. Um, listeners, let us know, uh, what you think of my adult playground idea. Um, and, uh, and it’s probably a terrible idea, but, but, uh, yeah, I mean, [00:04:21] Jeff: wanna give him your GoFundMe address? [00:04:23] Christina: yeah, I was gonna say gofundme.com/adult playground. No, that actually probably [00:04:29] Jeff: Nope. [00:04:30] Christina: I don’t wanna do that. [00:04:31] I don’t [00:04:31] Jeff: not the one you wanna, Nope. [00:04:32] Christina: That’s not the one. [00:04:34] Jeff: look, there’s some shopping that has to happen. [00:04:36] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say so, so, so, so let us know, but we think about the idea first and then I’ll, I’ll, I’ll like be soliciting for a, for investors. [00:04:46] Jeff: awesome. [00:04:47] Christina: Okay. All right. Should, should, should we do our MHC. [00:04:50] Jeff: Let’s do our MHC model. [00:04:53] Christina: All right. So MHC is our, our mental health corner. Um, uh, uh, Brett actually sent me some photos yesterday of him at [00:05:00] Mac stock with, um, some of, uh, some, some people, some mutual friends that we have, or no, no, no, Brett didn’t send it to me. Uh, uh, Jay Miller did of he, but he was with Brett and with mys and I was so jealous of him at max stock. [00:05:12] So I really wanted to go this year and it didn’t work out, but, uh, I’m definitely, I’ve committed already. I’m definitely going to be there next year and I think you need to commit as well so that, uh, [00:05:21] Jeff: I’d love to. [00:05:22] Christina: so that we can actually have like a, an in person, Overtired comp, um, but, uh, how’s your mental health going? [00:05:27] Jeff? [00:05:29] Jeff: Good. I had a, this is a much lighter than normal. Check-in like yesterday, a friend of mine. And I, we had been planning this for like weeks decided to just like take the afternoon and go record shopping. And, um, and I realized he actually described this, but it, it, it hit so perfectly all of the. All of the knowledge I have about music starting from when I obsessed over reading the credits on MTV in like 1983, [00:06:00] uh, to the present day, all of that information I’ve saved and collected sometimes even without meaning to man, when I get to a record store, I feel like, oh, I am expert in something. [00:06:13] Christina: That’s awesome. That’s. [00:06:15] Jeff: And so that was kind of fun. And it was really, it was really fun to just, I haven’t really like intentionally gone record shopping, certainly with a friend in a long time, it can be awkward. Like, are you ready? No, I’d like some more time, but no hurry. You know, like you just don’t know what a person’s timing is or like their rituals when they go into the record store, like it takes me like 15 minutes to go through the new used records that have come in, you know, sometimes 20 minutes. [00:06:41] Uh, I’m very slow anyhow, but it was a lovely time. But the thing that, the reason this is a mental health check in is, you know, I struggle with having too much stuff. And one of the categories of stuff is, you know, records and CDs. Cassette tapes. [00:07:00] And, and I’d been sitting on this box of seven inches since the early nineties. [00:07:04] It’s awesome. It’s an awesome box of seven inches, but I’d never not then. And not now, do I play seven inches? Right. Um, and so I realized like, yeah, these are fun to look at, but why don’t I just put ’em back into the river here, you know? And so I brought him in and they don’t usually nobody buys 40 fives anymore. [00:07:21] I mean, barely seven inches, whatever you wanna call ’em. But I brought him in and the guy was like, you know, he was trying to set the expectations low. He’s like, you know, we don’t really buy, I mean, I can take a look, man. And I got $300 store credit out of these things. And so, and 20% off, whatever I wanted to buy. [00:07:39] And so I got to do the most massive record shopping I’ve ever done. And I bought like $350 worth of records for $10 and it felt so good to get rid of something. And then just so directly. You know, recycle it into something new and fresh. I wasn’t just trying to give up space. This was more about giving up sort of psychic space. [00:07:59] Like this had [00:08:00] just been something I knew I should deal with for a long time. And it was just felt so good to buy so many records and not come home, uh, exhausted with shame like, oh, why did I spend so much money? Uh, so this is cool. I’ve never, I’ve never once spent that much money record shopping and it was just lovely. [00:08:16] Anyway, so that’s my mental health chicken. It gave me a big boost and I’ve spent the, you know, yesterday and today just listening to the records and I love it. What a, what about you? [00:08:25] Christina: Yeah, no, I mean, mine is pretty good. Like I said, I was able to be with some friends, which was really nice, like that always improves my mental health when I’m around people that I care about. I, um, I went to dinner with a person that I know mostly online. Apparently we had met before, but I unfortunately didn’t remember. [00:08:42] And we went out to dinner on Friday and I was anticipating that it was gonna be like a dinner where cuz he just started a new job at. And was in town for that night. So I figured I was like, oh, well, it’ll be some of his colleagues. And then I’ll be kind of be like the fifth wheel. And it wasn’t, it was actually two people [00:09:00] that he’d worked with at previous jobs who just happened to work at, live in Seattle now. [00:09:04] But the, you know, the other three of us didn’t know each other. Um, and so, um, like it was, it was kind of a nice, almost like dinner party sort of thing where, you know, we were all, it was, you know, you know, four people kind of, you know, three people getting to know each other. We had a mutual friend, but it was a really nice, like he, he picked a really good group of people to kind of meet up and nobody felt like they were, you know, like the fifth wheel and nobody felt like, you know, unin included. [00:09:31] And, and that was really nice. And that got me thinking, I was like, oh, that’s a really nice way of maybe doing kind of group, you know, intros of things. Um, but, uh, but, but being around people helps my mental health a lot. And it’s one of those things where I can have my introverted moments. But it’s very, that that’s times when it’s like, okay, it’s actually really important for me now to be around people. [00:09:54] And, and it just kind of reminds me, like, that’s what the hardest part of the last, you know, two plus years have been, has been [00:10:00] like not being around people because that, that really does impact me. I, you know, and, and, and it, it’s one of those things where at least for me, I’m like, oh, I don’t need this, but I do. [00:10:11] And it’s one of those things where, cuz I’ve had times in my life where, I mean, actually this freaked me out. First time I ever went on Klonopin or anything like that was, I was having like major or phobia, which I’d never had before. And you know, you almost had to do kind of like exposure therapy to kind of like get past it and, and whatnot. [00:10:28] But it was almost like, okay, I really do need to be around people. Um, even though I’m, I’m perfectly happy by myself sometimes like. Really important for me to be around people. And so it’s been nice, you know, the last, the last few days, you know, being around people who are either new or that I haven’t seen in a while, and like that does a lot for my mental health. [00:10:50] Jeff: It’s amazing cuz you’re describing such a simple thing, but it’s so incredible that we’ve just been through a long period of time where it was completely impossible. [00:10:59] Christina: Totally, [00:11:00] totally. [00:11:00] Jeff: I’m not, I just continue to be astonished by that. [00:11:03] Christina: No. I know. And, and I think that that is one of those things that we just, we had to do it and, and it’s going to have so many long lasting repercussions for so many people for kids, especially, you know, for young adults, but even for adults. Right. I think even for people who feel like, well, we’re, we’re, we’re stronger and we’ve gone through this stuff. [00:11:19] It’s like, no, like our lives have had like real disruption and, and there are real long term consequences to that. And, and it’s really nice when you’re reconnected with people again, but there’s still, you know, kind of this, this fear in people’s, you know, some people have like, where, like, you know, am, am I going to get sick? [00:11:37] Like, what are the risks? And I’m now at the point, and I can say this, like, fundamentally for me, the, the. Like the, the downsides of not being able to be like, kind of live my life in a more normal way and, and be around, people are much worse than like, what could happen if I got like long COVID[00:12:00] [00:12:00] Jeff: Mm, [00:12:00] Christina: you know, depending on like what that really even means, which we don’t really know what that means or, or whatnot. [00:12:06] Like I’m, I’m not at a point where I’m, I’m, you know, afraid of dying of, of COVID. Um, and, and I think that at this point, unless, you know, you are, are, have like severe, like, you know, immunocompromised issues or, you know, are older, you know, there, there things that go into it. I think at this point, like we have a good treatment plan, not to say that it’s. [00:12:27] Not a, a thing. Obviously people are still dying, but I’m just saying for me, that is not a strong risk thing. Like I’m not afraid of dying of COVID. And so for me, when I look at like the downsides of other stuff, like I, and I respect people who are like, I’m not gonna get on a plane. I’m not gonna be around people. [00:12:41] I’m gonna be masked all the time. I get that. But for me, like the downsides of not being able to live my life, the way that I was like, the, the, the trade off is, is at this point, like, it’s, it’s too much. So it’s an interesting thing. Cause I have some friends who are not at that point and I totally respect that. [00:12:59] And, and everybody has to [00:13:00] make their own decision. But for me, it’s like, yeah, I will. I’m completely okay with the risk of getting sick. If the other alternative is that I’m continuing to be alone and isolated and not able to have the things that I very much need that make life worth living. [00:13:21] Jeff: right, right. Yeah. I mean, I, I have a friend who’s a therapist and struggled in during COVID times with a few, you know, if someone was really isolated and they were trying to figure out. You know, this is more like the coming out of COVID time or the coming out of like the really intense lockdown times. [00:13:42] If a, if a person was kind of thinking, maybe I want to go to this party of three people, but I know that it’s dangerous. There’s people I’ve spoken to who were in that position, like spend as a therapist, another friend who’s like more of a kind of loose counselor role [00:14:00] who were just like, what do I say? [00:14:01] Because they need that. And they may need that more than they need to protect themselves from COVID. Um, and I’m just hearing that when you talk, it’s such an intense, intensely important thing to acknowledge, [00:14:16] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it gets lost sometimes. Right? Like I think that there are some people who are like way too much on the, like at like another, in the spectrum where like, they don’t even wanna acknowledge why people might take the risk. And I’m like, be because this isn’t going away, at least this is my perspective. [00:14:32] And again, I, I’m not expecting everybody to agree with me on this, but this is not going to go away. This is not going to change. There are things that we can do, like when things are, are bad to, to mask up and to like, you know, take more precautions, but this is not going away. And so if I have to like learn to live in this world, then I need to like learn to live with it. [00:14:51] And I, I cannot be isolated anymore. I, I can’t like if other people are cool with it fine. But like, I, I can’t. [00:14:59] Jeff: [00:15:00] Mm-hmm [00:15:00] Christina: know, and, and it’s not that I don’t care about other people and that I, you know, like that, I’m like, you know, like wanting people to die. It’s nothing to do with that. It’s just like, we all are going to have to find a way to move forward in life. [00:15:12] And for me, I will take the risk of, of getting sick. And I’m also like, as long as I’m taking precautions myself and, and I’m not like forcing myself on people who are not taking those risks too, then, then like, frankly, like I’m not even gonna be like, oh, well, you know, you’re, you you’re infecting others. [00:15:29] I’m like, well, maybe, but if they’re also choosing to be out, you know what I mean? Like we all have to kind of accept that, that that’s, that’s where we’re at. So I don’t know. [00:15:40] Jeff: Yeah, we got to the point with neighbors during the pandemic. We’re in a we’re in Minneapolis and like typical urban houses are just like touching each other practically. And we have a fence between our two houses and we call it the border bar. We meet there with drinks, um, periodically. And it started in the pandemic when it was like 25 below. [00:15:59] [00:16:00] We were just like, can’t stand it anymore. Let’s at least like stand six feet from each other in the freezing cold and have a drink. You know, it was like the one social thing we could imagine doing. But then also just like on a really mundane level, like today, one of my kids is out playing D and D with friends. [00:16:16] The other one is out tubing in the river. Those are things that didn’t happen for two years, you know? [00:16:22] Christina: And they’re important that it’s intense and they’re important. Being able to go tubing, being able to go to a park, being able to like, just play D and D with your friends. Like, it, it, it, it’s important to be around we’re social creatures and, and, um, you know, I think that there are, like, there would be ways where you could maybe like limit certain we didn’t ever, and we, that the problem is too, like as a society, we didn’t do anything. [00:16:45] The right way, like we went full stop. There’s no interaction, right. There was, it was like a full, it was like a full stop of like, everything is open, everything is closed. And then it was like, everything is open again. You know, like, like some people were doing stopped openings, but there was, there was no kind of [00:17:00] like in between stuff. [00:17:01] So it was one of those kind of like, it was like a switch that was like on or off. And, and we had to adjust to those things. [00:17:07] Jeff: Mm-hmm mm-hmm . Yeah. And I do think like, I mean, now I think the way that it all went down, um, and the way that we came out of it and the way we are now as a, as a, you know, conflicted culture in America of many different cultures. The next thing that happens, like coronavirus, there’s never gonna be a, a lockdown again. [00:17:29] Like I even, like, I I’ve told people before, like I already live, like I’m already like, uh, quarantine, adjacent dispositionally. And, and so like for me, the lockdown was like, oh, I love this. I don’t have to make too many choices socially. It’s like a huge hope for me. Um, but it’s just never gonna happen again. [00:17:48] It’s gonna be fought intensely from the moment it’s even like hinted at, and that’s, that’s something I try not to spend too much time thinking about cuz nothing’s happened yet, but like, yeah, I can’t [00:18:00] help but think, oh, it’s gonna be a not nice time. [00:18:04] Christina: No, totally. And, and the thing is like, I, I kind of understand, I, I was surprised that it happened to begin with, I just thought, like, at least in our country, like I was like, our, our independence has always been such that, that like, I, I was like, okay, I know that you can enforce this in Singapore and in China and some other places, but I don’t think you can enforce this in the United States. [00:18:22] And, and, and the fact that we, we did as limited as it was, you know, um, was, was kind of a. A Testament, you know, but, but, but would that prove to me though, is it was like if 90% of the people do the right things, if that 10% doesn’t then it’s off or not. Like, like, I, I became frustrated because I was like, I still ended up getting sick. [00:18:46] Um, even though I did all the right things, even though I, I didn’t take, I, I wasn’t acting in a way that was in any way, like going against guidelines. Right. Like I did all the right things. So what was this all for? You know what I mean? [00:19:00] Like, my, my parents’ friends still died. Like we still had people who weren’t able to be at, at their loved ones funerals. [00:19:07] Um, we still had like these situations, like we did all the right things and it didn’t matter. So like, there’s a big part of me as unhelpful as this might be. And as selfish as this might be. And, and I’m fine with, with, with accepting that I’m, I’m just kind of like, yeah, we did all the right things and it didn’t fucking matter. [00:19:24] So no, I’m not going to go through that again. I’m not like, I, I, I. [00:19:29] Jeff: like it’s almost like a desperate feeling like, fuck no, [00:19:32] Christina: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, absolutely. Cuz it’s one of those things like, okay, we did all the right things and it didn’t matter. So what was the point? You know, which, which is, is terrible, but it, but I, but I have, I think that I’m not alone in that and I don’t think it’s like a, I don’t think it’s a left right thing. [00:19:47] I think that it’s just a, as you said, it’s a desperation thing where people are just like, no, we, we gave up a lot and the consequences and the outcomes were still really terrible. Would they have been worse? [00:20:00] Probably, but, but you know, like, you know what I mean? Like, like it’s one of those things where it’s like, if you don’t do it completely, then it it’s still, you still like, let you still let things in. [00:20:13] It’s just, I don’t know. [00:20:15] Jeff: Based on like how you remember the pandemic unfolding, where on the timeline, do you put the point where, where you were at, what you just described, which is like, we can do all we want, but because you know, this percentage of people aren’t doing anything, you’re feeling like it doesn’t matter. [00:20:31] Christina: Um, I would say, I would say like November, December [00:20:34] Jeff: Mm-hmm [00:20:35] Christina: of this year, 20 21, 20 [00:20:37] Jeff: 21. Oh yeah. Got it. So, so, so like you got things starts in March of 2020, [00:20:43] Christina: Yeah, [00:20:44] Jeff: and then you’re saying like all the way up until about November, December 20, 21, like you, you were you personally just like, okay, I get it. I get it. But you were slowly that was eroding and then, and really eroding in December. [00:20:55] Christina: Yeah, yeah. [00:20:56] Jeff: get that. I get that. I [00:20:58] Christina: because at that point, yeah, we, you know, [00:21:00] we were trying, we had vaccinations and we had people who were then choosing not to get vaccinated and you had, you know, sickness still coming and you had all these variants and you had all this other stuff. And at this point I was just kinda like, okay, so we didn’t fix anything. [00:21:14] We, we, we did all this and it didn’t solve anything and it didn’t stop anything. And there’s still variants that are happening. And now you have people who are refusing to get vaccinated and, and are refusing to celebrate these good things that have happened. So what are we? And we don’t have enough vaccines for certain parts of the world. [00:21:31] And we still have, you know, these, these conflicting kind of strategies and this and that. So like what, what was this for? You know, like, yeah. I, I would say that, that I, I was all up for it until like November, December, and then I was just kind of like, all right. I will obviously respect whatever the guidelines are and I will respect other personal policies in the individual that I’m friends with or am around, wants to follow. [00:21:57] But for me personally, I’m done [00:22:00] pretending, like I can continue to have my life in stasis because, um, the, the, the consequences and the risks don’t match anymore. Like, like my, my, my personal risk assessment is now at the point where I’m like, I, I can’t like for my own mental health. And also just for what I would look at as the way I was looking at things like logically not to say that my view is accurate for everyone. [00:22:21] Else’s was just kind of like, this is, this is no longer logical. This is now outta the point where it is. It is, you know, like taking all these precautions and doing all this stuff, isn’t actually stopping anything. And then it would also get to the point where, like in Seattle, we would have certain things where you would have to show your, your vaccination certificate to eat at a restaurant, which is fine. [00:22:43] And, but they would be like, okay, you have to wear a mask until you get to the table, then you can take your mask off. [00:22:49] Jeff: and then everybody’s got their masks off for the next two hours as they talk loudly and laugh and [00:22:53] Christina: Well, and, and that was, and that was acceptable. Like, it wasn’t even a thing. Like they would say, oh, put your mask on when you’re not eating or drinking that [00:23:00] wasn’t, it. It was like, you have to wear the mask while you walk from the hostess, stand to the table and then it can come off. [00:23:07] And so I’m sorry, but that’s performative and stupid. Like either the mask works or it doesn’t, and in many cases, the cloth masks don’t work. So like, what’s, you’ve already seen that I’m vaccinated. So what’s the point, right? [00:23:22] Jeff: And like two, two things at that period that were happening. One, we were starting to realize, oh, this cloth mask thing, we are not gonna continue that everyone gets in, you know, an N 95 or whatever, but also around that November, December 21 time, that’s when I remember realizing when I was in businesses in Minneapolis and half the people were masked, the people who masked were almost definitely the people who were vaccinated. [00:23:51] Right. Cause those were the people that were willing to be like, yeah, no, I’ll do this. I’ll do this both because it’s needed and it’s symbolic. Right? Like, and, and that was, I [00:24:00] remember at that moment just being like, oh my God, this is crazy. [00:24:03] Christina: Exactly. And, and I guess for me as like, I kind of lost the symbolism aspect, I was like, look, I’ll do again. I’ll do whatever the guidelines tell me to do. Um, and I’ll do whatever people I’m around want to do to be comfortable. And I’m okay with that. What I’m not gonna do is just for symbolism sake. And also it’s absolutely stupid to be like, it’s okay in this five foot area, like you ha are required to have a mask, but in this five foot area, you don’t like. [00:24:34] Jeff: Yeah, it’s dizzying. [00:24:35] Christina: It it’s stupid. It’s absolutely stupid. At that point, it just becomes like bureaucracy. And so that, that, that to me was that those are things, that many things that broke me over the pandemic, but we’ve been talking too much about this. I, I apologize. You have a, you have a big list of questions of topic, a topic list. [00:24:51] You said you have some questions for me. So I would love to hear your questions. [00:24:56] Jeff: They’re just questions that I’ve meant to ask you from the first time I was [00:25:00] on the podcast. So one is. Back in the day you had, uh, uh, you were writing a blog for USA today, coaching American idol participants. And I want to hear how that came about and anything that is of note about that experience. [00:25:19] It’s true. Right? [00:25:20] Christina: it? No, that’s 100% true. That was my first professional writing experience. I was in college and [00:25:25] Jeff: were in college. How [00:25:26] Christina: I was in college. Uh, I was like 22, 23. [00:25:29] Jeff: Okay, how did you get it? [00:25:31] Christina: Uh, I was a block comment. [00:25:33] Jeff: Nice on the blog. [00:25:35] Christina: On the blog. So, so the, the, then music editor at, uh, USA today, he had his music blog and he had an American idol blog. And I used to watch American idol with my parents actually, like it was like kind of our show. [00:25:47] We always enjoyed watching it. And you know, this was back when it was the number one show on television. So this is back when it was like, you know, it’s peak. And I would comment kind of on like my opinions of the music industry and of the [00:26:00] contestants and how things were going. But I would also comment on his general music blog and he liked my commentary and he thought I was a good writer and thought I was funny and reached out to me and said, we’re putting together a panel of coaches that will, there will be a column in the paper, you know, every whatever day it was, where they’ll be giving advice to the contestants. [00:26:20] And, um, and then it’ll be a longer version that’ll run online. And would you like to do this. I was like, I was like, yeah, are you kidding me? That’d be amazing. So I was in the paper every week and like, my photo was, was there and then a longer version was online. And, um, I got, I got paid $1,500, uh, which was not a lot of money, but I, I thought it was [00:26:41] Jeff: what? For each column. [00:26:42] Christina: no period [00:26:43] Jeff: Okay. Got it. You got 1500. How long did you do it? [00:26:47] Christina: whatever the length that the season was. [00:26:48] So like 12 weeks, I guess. [00:26:49] Jeff: Okay, got it. Yep. [00:26:51] Christina: And, uh, so not a lot of money, but I’d never done anything, you know, professionally before. And, uh, I bought a black MacBook with it that I named Simon because Simon [00:27:00] cow wears a black t-shirt, you know, and, and American idol and inadvertently paid for, you know, my career and no one, it was amazing. [00:27:06] Um, what was so great about it is that gave me the confidence then to. So blogging jobs, which then led to my professional career, because that gave me the confidence to say, oh, well, I’m, if I was good enough to write here, you know, about something that I am not qualified really, to comment on the same way that, you know, cuz it was, it was some actual industry professionals. [00:27:26] And then me who was just like the fan, um, then, then like, okay then clearly my writing is good enough that I could, I could write, you know, for a blog that pays me $10 a post. Um, and, and which then led to led to a much more lucrative career. Yeah. But no, it all came from blog comments. It’s, it’s one of those stories. [00:27:46] I still can’t believe that that happened because even in 2007, when that happened, that was not a common. Thing like that, that seemed like that was like a, a fantasy of someone like being like, [00:28:00] you know, somebody being like literally like, you know, lifted from the blog comments and, and lifted up into, you know, like, you know, a stardom and, and wasn’t stardom, but it was definitely, um, I remember being in a class, I was taking this journalism class and the teacher was terrible and she sucked and she hated me. [00:28:18] And she, um, cause I would ask questions about like, what about blogging? What about, you know, digital media, new media as they’re calling it then. And she was really dismissive of it. She was really dismissive of it. And so I was then immediately dismissive of her. Cause I was like, whatever, and I wasn’t gonna tell her, well, you know, I got a job writing because I blog commentary. [00:28:38] Like, didn’t, didn’t say that. But one day somebody in the class had a USA today and they saw my photo. And then Christina, is this you? I was like, yeah. And they’re like, oh my God, Christina’s in the paper. And then, you know, I had to explain, yeah, I have a, a weekly, you know, thing that comes out and the teacher, she was mad. [00:28:54] She was like, how did you get this? And I was like, yeah, I commented on the music. Editor’s blogs. [00:29:00] And, and he liked me. And she was like, well, you know, don’t expect, she basically was like, don’t expect this to turn into anything. [00:29:06] Jeff: Oh, my [00:29:06] Christina: And, [00:29:07] Jeff: like a bad high school [00:29:08] Christina: it really does. Right. And this is college completely, you know, she was just so completely foreign to her. [00:29:13] And I was just kind of like, and I didn’t argue, I wasn’t gonna say anything cuz in my mind I was already like lady, if I want this as a career. And I, and I thought that I kind of did at that point, I was like, I’m going to be successful. Like. [00:29:25] Jeff: Yeah. [00:29:26] Christina: You know, like, fuck you, you know what I mean? But, but it, but, but it, it, it, it was like, it was, it, it was even then though it was unbelievable that it happened, so, yeah, that’s it’s um, yeah, [00:29:40] Jeff: Were you, um, were you the, were you commenting on lots of different blogs or was it mostly that one? [00:29:46] Christina: it was, it was, I mean, I commented both, both of his music, blogs. I would come on other blogs too, though. Like I had, you know, I would comment on, on sites that I like to read. Like I was a Gawker commenter back when you had to audition to, to, uh, be in the goer comments [00:29:59] Jeff: that’s [00:30:00] right. What, what did that, what did that actually, uh, what was that about? How, how did you have to do that? [00:30:05] Christina: oh, they would just basically choose that you were funny enough and in that regard or smart enough, and in that regard, I was smarter. I knew that I was like, I might not be witty enough for Gawker. This is like 2004, maybe. Right. So this was a couple years before the, the idle thing happened, but I, I was, I was like, mm, I might not be good enough to stand Toto toe with the best goer commenters, cuz at the time, like at that era, the comments on go were almost as good as the site itself. [00:30:35] And like that was the like media and, and kind of, you know, like, like a New York kind of gossip and culture and like, you know, like that, that was like the blog. Right. But won, get which they owned then had a much more liberal policy in terms of approving commenters. So I got approved to be a won, get commenter, which then in turn made me a Gawker commenter. [00:30:57] Jeff: And who was, who was editing? Won get at that [00:31:00] time [00:31:00] Christina: Anna Marie Cox. [00:31:01] Jeff: it was Anne Marie. Was it always Anna Marie Cox. [00:31:03] Christina: No, she was the original, then I think she got hired away by time or someone. And then other people took over and then eventually like Nick DIDNT sold, won, get to someone else. And then I think won get still exists. But I think they’d like are independent now, but yeah. So when it was the honorary Cox era, I was a, a, I basically like did an in run around the system and I was like, okay, if I’m a prude as a won, get commenter, then I can comment on Gawker. [00:31:31] Um, and, and then that, like, you know, I’m sure I also commented on in gadget and Gizmoto and things like that. But like Gawker was like the apex, because, you know, they like you had to audition. Like they, they would even do this thing back. Such a different time in, in internet things, because this before, like the spam took over the, the comments and, and everything like where they would like have like comments of the week, but they would also have this thing where they would basically like put things up for vote, be like, should we ban this commenter or not? [00:31:58] And like the people like [00:32:00] would, would, you know, kind of comment, like based on like, like bad comments of the weekly, it was, it was brutal, but it was funny and it was such a completely different time than now. It’s so funny to think back about, um, one of the saddest things. That happened when they did the Gawker archive, when Gawker was went bankrupt and, and then Univision for legal reasons, couldn’t keep the site. [00:32:20] Um, the archive team did archive it and, and, um, but honestly also the most of that work happened behind the scenes from, from the, um, engineers who worked at, at, uh, goer media group who like went through the process of, of archiving the old site. But when they did that, the comments for most, for most of the blogs were not archived because of the, the JavaScript and other stuff. [00:32:41] They just didn’t have time. And so the, the comments which were in many cases, so much a part of the whole thing don’t exist. Um, there are some things like if you go far, far, far back on the way back machine, you might see some things, but just because of how JavaScript for commenting server side stuff would work, cuz it was usually, you know, like, like [00:33:00] Ken J was its own platform. [00:33:02] You know, the, the way that it would usually maybe be stored on another server or whatnot, like it’s not, they don’t come up. So it’s one of those things where, um, like there’s this, this amazing part of history that is just sort of gone. Um, and, uh, and, and it’s, it’s sad. Yeah. [00:33:19] Jeff: Right man. I, you know, I don’t think I’ve thought enough about the loss of comments when you also, you know, I often, I mean, selfishly so much work I’ve done has been lost because of media [00:33:33] Christina: going under mm-hmm [00:33:34] Jeff: yeah. Going under, or just doing a, a, you know, redesign in a relaunch and not thinking through the most basic things about what would happen to the archives. [00:33:45] Um, but I admit that I hadn’t thought about the fact that you’ve also lost all those comments, um, which is a big deal, [00:33:53] Christina: No, it is a big deal. Cause that was a huge part of how communication happened, like pre Twitter and Facebook and, and those types of [00:34:00] things. Like you’re, you’re, you’re back and forth. Like were your comment sections and, and a lot of people built relationships and friendships and things there [00:34:07] Jeff: Yeah. In the comment sections, right? Like you would on Twitter in the early days of Twitter, to [00:34:12] Christina: 100%. No, exactly. Right. I mean, and I think that’s one of the reasons why most organizations have gotten rid of comments is they’re like, oh, people will just use Facebook or Twitter or, you know, Instagram or whatever. Um, and also because moderating them becomes difficult, you know, not just for spam, but, you know, as things got bigger and bigger, like you would have more polarizing things, but like, yeah, like I, I owe my blog career to being a blog commenter and I definitely was always somebody who would, would post in comments. [00:34:41] Like I’m always writing letters to the editor when I was like nine years old though. [00:34:45] Jeff: Who were you? What about, what about what? [00:34:47] Christina: Oh, so I’ll never forget this because I got a letter back. Um, they were sort of appreciative, but they weren’t really, so there was a, an article in glamor magazine about depo, Vera being [00:35:00] given to rapists to basically kind of like, um, you know, prevent them, like they thought like, oh, this will be a way to like lower their sex drive or whatever. [00:35:08] And like, you know, have like some sort of recidivism, but the way that the story was written, as I recall it, and, and this is many, many, many years ago was, um, and in many ways kind of like overly kind to the rapist and, and, and, and was like overly sympathetic. And I was as a nine year old, I was, it was my mom’s glamor magazine. [00:35:33] No, it wasn’t glamor. It was red book. Well, no, it was red book. I think it was red book or glamor. It was one or the other, but it was my mom’s regardless. And I remember reading this and being just very bothered and I wrote a letter to the editor. Um, you know, basically like expressing my, you know, I was handwritten and like, I signed it, my name, my, my name, my age, and it wasn’t published, but most of the other published letters were of my same opinion.[00:36:00] [00:36:00] And, um, and you know, I got something back from, from, from them basically. Like, we appreciate your comment, you know, but we, you know, are committed to this, that and the other, you know, and, and it was just kind of one of those kind of brush off things, but it was, um, but I was in sense enough by it that my mom was like, no, they had letters to the editor. [00:36:16] You need to write one. And, um, and that was kind of like my first kind of experience with that. And I think that I had a letter that are published an entertainment weekly, or I think it was entertainment weekly when I was in high school. I remember being very proud of that. Like that was like a massive thing, you know, that. [00:36:33] Jeff: was that about? [00:36:34] Christina: I don’t remember that. I don’t remember, but, but I, but one of my comments was, was in entertainment weekly, um, or, or some entertainment magazine, I think it was entertainment weekly. And, and I was like, very excited by that. And now I was just kind of like, oh my gosh, like my name like Christina w you know, from Atlanta or whatever is, is here. [00:36:51] And like, that was like you, that was like a big deal. Right? Like that. And that was the sort of thing that cuz I always loved magazines and, and loved that type of stuff. And I [00:37:00] was like, so, so blog comments made complete sense to me. [00:37:04] Jeff: I love it. I, I remember I used to tell, like, if I was, when I was working for like, even like small media organizations and someone would say like, how do I get a job at a media organization? It was like, back in the day, it really felt like some, you know, if you wrote well, somewhere on the internet, it could help you to get a job. [00:37:27] Now that may have been tr true for a certain kind of person. For sure. Like, I don’t even know if this is real, except for your example. [00:37:36] Christina: Yeah, there were, I mean, I know a number of people who, again, it’s rare, one-offs you hear about it? But what I would say is, and I would still say this to this day that it’s like, if you wanna be a writer, you need to write. And obviously it’s harder now to get attention and, and to get like people to pay attention to you because there’s so much more of it out there, but like, you have to get in the habit of writing every day. [00:37:59] Like, I don’t think I [00:38:00] would’ve been as good, um, of a commenter on the American idol blog. Cause I don’t or the music blog and I was commenting, you know, like he would post several things a day and I would post comments and I was one of the active people there. Right. And then the community develops, there’s a back and forth if I wasn’t like blogging personally, like on my live journal. [00:38:17] And if I wasn’t, you know, you know what I mean? Like if I wasn’t, if I didn’t have that kind of practiced thing of I’m going to write every day. And, and, and I think that, that I, I was. I was positioned at the right time, right place and right. Type of mindset where like blogging made complete sense to me. [00:38:35] And, and so that wave of journalism and that change of the guard from print to digital, I never did the print stuff. Like I was in print, but I didn’t have to write for like, like they, I had an editor who’d cut the column down. Like I, wasn’t having to worry about like, how many inches is this and how many words and how to frame it. [00:38:51] Like, I never had to do any of that. Right. Like I always was even, even in college, like I didn’t write for the school newspaper I wrote for the school, like digital [00:39:00] magazine, like, you know, like, so I was always digital because I just got it. Um, because I was just primed at that right place, right time. But like, when I, when I mentor younger writers now, and I don’t know what your advice is, but my advice is always just first and foremost. [00:39:17] Right? Like even if no one’s reading it. You know, get in the habit of, of writing and, and, you know, doing the work because that is, you think that’s obvious, but there are so many people who go to prestigious journalism schools and can’t write for shit and, and, you know, like spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on these things and can’t write for shit and don’t do it and don’t have a voice and don’t have like a, a way of writing. [00:39:45] And, and that, that, I think, like you only get better at it by doing it. [00:39:51] Jeff: yeah, I’m really bad at giving advice about writing. I do, but the one thing that I tend to say is just wherever [00:40:00] you write, if you want to be a writer, anything you’ve written as an editorial product, like, and, and if anyone trying to hire you is like, Uh, you know, savvy at all, they’ll wind up looking at that stuff. [00:40:14] And so, like, it doesn’t mean like censor yourself. It certainly doesn’t mean like, if you think you want to, you know, work in public radio, write like a public radio script writer, like don’t do that. Like write your, write your heart, like write who you are, you know, and realize that I just had to tell this to my son when he was my son’s really Google language. [00:40:34] He’s a teenager. Um, and he joined Reddit a couple years ago and I was like, look like he already knew what he was getting into. Like he had been, you know, following different sub Reddits for a long time. So he knew how people can be. Um, and I was just like, look, you do what you want. I can’t control it, nor would I try to control it in any like serious way, cuz that’s uh, just a complete farce given the way the internet [00:41:00] works. [00:41:00] Um, and that you are a private person, but it’s like just try not to be an asshole. like, if you can just manage to not be an asshole, then cuz this stuff’s gonna be with you the rest of your life. [00:41:12] Christina: right. Or, or at least, or, or at least use like a username that then you’d never use again, or don’t ever, that’s never linked back to you. Right? Like if you’re going to be an asshole, cause we’ve all had those times. then don’t have it tied to like the username that you use your whole life. Like that’s, that’s the, the thing, but like, I have people who there was a Simpsons forum, it was called no homers that I was on for a long time. [00:41:34] For years, people from that forum knew me and they would see me on TV or they would see other things. And I would, I would find weird peeing back store. I see things on Twitter and they they’d be like, oh my God, film girl is on TV. You know, like these were people who knew me from like that life. And they were really proud of me, which was really nice, you know, but like they literally saw me go from like college student Simpsons nerd fan to, you know, someone who’s on television and like made it right. [00:41:58] And, but, but [00:42:00] I was always myself in those things. And, and, you know, to your point, wasn’t an asshole. There were things that I lurked on and there were things that I’m sure I was mean and, and bad on, you know, and stuff. But you know, that thankfully most of have been lost to time. And some of them were under usernames that are not associated with me at all, but it was, you know, [00:42:20] Jeff: like film, gal [00:42:22] Christina: I mean would be completely different. Right? Like, I was always like my OPSEC as, as they say was, was always fairly good to your point, because even back then, I was like smart enough to have an instinct that like this stuff might come back, you know? But, but yeah. I mean, that’s good advice to your son. It’s like, yeah, this stuff will stick around and, and not in me, I’m like, like for Reddit, I’m like, okay, well, like delete your account. [00:42:47] You can delete the account. I mean, people can find certain things, but it would take, it would take be much harder or like use a different username. You know? Like if you’re not super happy with some stuff, then just start a new username. Yeah. You’re gonna be starting over, [00:43:00] but it’s but, but it’s okay. Cuz especially when you’re like in high school and stuff, right. [00:43:03] Like I also think, and it’s weird because we go as a culture, we go back and forth on this, where. When I started working like more professionally, like I remember like even the USA today stuff, I was like, and this was early, like Facebook was still college only. So I didn’t have to really do a lot of the stuff where I had to like private all my things. [00:43:24] But like when I got my job at blogging, like yeah, I had to kind of lock down some of my college stuff and I was like, okay. You know, I actually learned this the hard way where I’d uploaded something to flicker for a test for a, for a post, for download squad and R I P and people found all my photos because they just looked at like, whatever the URL and the screenshot was. [00:43:51] And that kind of was, I was like, oh, and this was like 2007. And I was. [00:44:00] okay. I have to be way more careful. And if I’m now in any way, public than, than people on the internet can draw these conclusions. And I was not famous. I didn’t have, I wasn’t a public figure of any stretch of the imagination and, and, uh, you know, didn’t have any sort of following at all, but I learned that and I was like, oh, okay. [00:44:17] I have to separate these things. And like, when I got my job at Mashable, by then, I’d already like, had all of the sorority party photos and all that stuff, you know, that was already like archived. Cuz at that point, when I got that job in 2009, I had, I don’t know, I had probably 10,000 followers on Twitter, which was significant for that time. [00:44:35] But Mashable was a massive, massive deal in certain circles. Like it was a massive blog and we had massive traffic and I knew, and because we did comment, we did, you know, have back and forth in the comments and whatnot. And because it was one of those things where I was like, oh, okay. So my, my personal life online has. [00:44:56] Is now no longer really going to be a thing the same way. [00:45:00] And so at like a young age, I had to sort of realize, and I’m glad I had this lesson because I, I then would write posts. I would have to write posts about people who would get canceled, where they would find bad tweets or they’d find, you know, stuff that they did in that. [00:45:12] And like, I’m not a fan of that. Like, I’m not a fan of like taking people’s like stuff they do on their personal, not public, you know, Facebook. And they’re like, oh, this teacher said this and we’re gonna fire them. Like, I think that’s fucked. Like, even if I don’t agree with what the person said, I’m not a fan of that, but we’ve seen this happen now for 15 years where you go back and forth where sometimes people are like, okay, well this was a different time and place and this was a child, so we’ll give them a pass. [00:45:35] And then you also have the, the same, you know, era you’ll have people who are like, it doesn’t matter. You know, that, that, that it was a child who wrote this they’re canceled forever. Right. So it, it it’s, we, we still haven’t decided and it’s kind of fucked up cuz I it’s going to happen. Probably like next time we actually have like non Arians, like running for office when, or Arians, whatever, you know, their [00:46:00] they’re um, thing is when we have actual like millennials, like running for president social media. [00:46:06] And what people have said in their past is going to become political issues and we’re going to have to start deciding. What, what, like breaks we give, cuz this is just gonna become part of real life, right? Like it, it similar to the way, like if you wrote an op-ed for college, you know, that could come into something. [00:46:22] Um, and I think most people would, would dismiss some of it. Um, it would necessarily be like a, a career ending move, but it is going to be a thing where a tweet you sent when you were 14 years old is going to be used in someone’s political campaign against you. And, and it’s it’s, which is unfortunate to me, but that’s just kind of like this, this weird place where we are. [00:46:44] And so I, I feel [00:46:45] Jeff: occurs to me there’s this, you know, there’s this thing that’s really probably ending with the, the, with the boomers as politicians. But like, there are these politicians who have known from a young age, they were going to be, uh, [00:47:00] trying to get some sort of office. Right. And because of that, the paper trail is like nothing, right? [00:47:05] Like it’s like meticulously, trimmed along the way in the, in the future. When everybody’s got this digital history, that’s gonna seem real weird. Right? Like that’s not gonna be like. Oh, [00:47:18] Christina: well, I would hope so. [00:47:19] Jeff: because there’s nothing it’s gonna be like, wait, wait. [00:47:21] Christina: Why don’t you have anything? [00:47:23] Jeff: yeah. [00:47:24] Christina: Right. Well, and, and, and I wonder about that and I hope that that happens, but like, I’ll say this, I didn’t ever have any, like, I really didn’t ever think I was gonna have photo aspirations, but when I was 16 or 17, I was part of some independent film that I didn’t get paid any money on. [00:47:40] And, and we wound up doing kind of that film. We didn’t really have any funding for. And so we then tried to shoot kind of a documentary thing this back when documentaries were a big deal. Um, this was like 2000. And, um, so we had a party in shop documentary and I was underage and drunk and I made some comments, um, about stuff. [00:47:59] And [00:48:00] when I made them at the time and I’m like 16, right. [00:48:03] Jeff: yeah. [00:48:04] Christina: I was like, holy shit. If this video, I was like, well, there goes my political career. Like I was drunk and underage and all that stuff. And I was still like, holy shit. Well just, just blew my political career if that ever comes out. And I don’t think that video ever will come out. [00:48:17] Like, I I’m sure that it’s long gone. It’s never been on the internet or anything, but like, I, I, I don’t know what this says about me, that I had like an awareness at that young of an age about that stuff. But now you’re right. Like if you don’t have those things, although a lot of kids do lock down their social media profiles and their private, but screen caps and things exist. [00:48:38] It is going to be weird though, to be like, I, I, at least I hope where people are gonna be like, yeah, I was an idiot online. Like I hope that’s what happens. Like I hope that’s the weekend as a society, except yeah. [00:48:52] Jeff: outside of stuff that is obviously harmful or threatening [00:48:55] Christina: Right, right. That’s what I’m saying, right? Like, like, like being a shit Lord online. I don’t think when [00:49:00] you’re a teenager or even like in early college, I don’t think that should preclude you 20 years later from being a different person. [00:49:06] Because if, if the worst things I’ve ever said on, if that I’ve ever said on the internet, people wanted to hold me accountable for today that I said, when I was, you know, in college, I’m sorry. I think that’s fucked. I think that’s stupid. Right. And, and I, I’m not gonna hold anybody else to those standards either. [00:49:22] Um, especially if every other indication they’ve made in their life shows that they’re different. Right. I’m not going to assume that that, that the edge Lord shit that you did or, or the impolite stuff or the stuff that was funny and was allowed, then that is no longer acceptable by today’s standards or like was, is going to invalidate somebody’s ability to, you know, have a professional job. [00:49:46] Right. Like, I, I think that, I hope that we can get to that point as a culture where we can all just kind of acknowledge. Yeah. We’re all, you know, we’ve all been those, that asshole kid online, that’s part of growing up [00:50:00] on the internet. And I don’t know if, if, but I, but I don’t know if that’s, if that’s gonna be the case or. [00:50:05] Jeff: mm-hmm yeah, that’s interesting. I, well, I, I watch it curiously as someone who was past that point in my life when the internet and, and being a participant in the internet became a thing. Um, I think I was pretty set in a way of, of communicating in the world by the time that happened. So it was mercifully [00:50:25] Christina: No, exactly. That’s what I’m saying. So that’s why I think like, like your, your, your son’s, your, your son’s like their generation especially is really gonna deal with this. But, but I really do think it’ll be like, when we have millennials running for president, it is going to become like a thing, because that’s, that’s when you’re, you know, again, like, like my online history, like if you really wanted to be real with it, like goes back to me, literally being in middle school. [00:50:47] So, and, and, and, and, and, and I’m an older millennial, so, you know, for, for anybody who’s after me, then, then it’s, it’s even younger. Right. So it, so it’s, it’s becomes one of those things where [00:51:00] I, I don’t know, I, I hope that we can be sane about it. Um, You have some other questions we’ve only got, like, we don’t have much more time left, but, but which, what do you wanna talk about? [00:51:08] Do you wanna [00:51:08] Jeff: Well actually, if we wanted to, I’m looking. Yeah. If we wanted to go into gratitude, I could make my part. Sorry. I could make my part an extended gratitude cause I wanted to, I wanted to bring up the play date one more [00:51:21] Christina: yeah, of course Floyd. Absolutely. Let’s talk about, let’s talk [00:51:24] Jeff: should I do that for a few minutes? And then you can pick something if you wish. [00:51:28] Christina: absolutely. [00:51:29] Jeff: so to describe play date again, uh, this, you know, it’s created by the company, panic who panic does so, or did so much, but do what do they do now? What are their main things? Is it the [00:51:40] Christina: They have Nova the text editor, [00:51:42] Jeff: Nova, the text editor. What am I thinking? Sorry. [00:51:45] Christina: transmit, the FTP client. Um, they, they, they published games like they published, um, um, untitled goose. [00:51:54] Jeff: Oh, they did untitled goose game. [00:51:56] Christina: Yeah, so they didn’t develop it, but they’re the publisher. Um, [00:52:00] and, uh, and, and, and the play date, and, you know, like their, like, you know, but their history of being like some of like the, the greatest Mac apps of all time, I [00:52:08] Jeff: Right. Where, where would I, where would, where did you first encounter panic? [00:52:14] Christina: ion, which was like their, like the like win amp for, for Mac. This was like a Mac app in, in like the, the, like the early, it was like an MP3 player, like in the late nineties, early two thousands. [00:52:24] Jeff: yeah, [00:52:25] Christina: And that was, that was great. Um, and, and then like, I don’t know, like when it became like a big like Mac app person, like they made some of the best ones, like they made an app called candy bar. [00:52:36] They would let you like, change the icons and like the themes of your Mac, which was awesome. And they had, um, you know, I remember when Koda came out, which was like, you know, their, like, which was amazing, which had like, you know, CSS editor and an FTP client and like a text editor all in one. So you could like edit, you know, do all of your web projects. [00:52:54] It was great. Um, I don’t know. I’ve just, I’ve always been a really, really big panic [00:53:00] fan. [00:53:00] Jeff: I came on board with Coda and I mean, so given all of that kind of rich history, especially rich, very literally aesthetically colorful history, right. Um, the fact that they’re behind this very simple, this very elegant handheld gaming console that happens to have a crank on it. Um, which is this thing called the play date, which Christina, I know you have, uh, and which I covet and dream about. [00:53:29] Um, it’s a play date. Uh, the play date is something that you can kind of design for yourself. Which is super cool. If you got the play date today, there are already a bunch of kind of games people have made for it. Um, so you can just like dive right in, but then they’ve made this environment that actually makes it a lot easier for me because I want a play date, but they’re not gonna be available till 20, 23. [00:53:53] Right. And so what they have online is the play date SDK, which has a simulator for the play [00:54:00] date, which is super cool and beautifully done. It has something called caps, which is an online bitmap font, bitmap font editors. You can make your own, uh, font. Um, and then they have something called pulp, which is like a web based game editor. [00:54:15] And it helps you do all sorts of things, like make a song for your game or sounds, or the sprites or whatever. And like, as someone who has seen a lot of, sort of, Hey, design, your own game and this web interface stuff through my kids, I found this to be just like lovely and something I absolutely want to engage in. [00:54:34] And you have this, like, you have this like very visual editing. System, but they also have their own scripting language called pulp script. So basically panics created this like physical object for which you can do all of these wonderful things, but you can do all of those things without having the physical object, which is lucky, cuz in this planet, on this planet, we have a chip shortage and if you wanted to get the play date right now, you’re [00:55:00] gonna, you’re gonna buy it. [00:55:00] And then you’re gonna wait till sometime in 2023. And so my aptitude is actually for their SDK environment and how much thought they put into creating these interfaces. So you can do some of these really simple, simple looking things like create your own bit mat file bit. I can’t say that’s hard to say it’s like rural juror bitmap font. [00:55:22] Yeah. so anyway, panic. Amazing. Um, and I just wanted to say Christina, we’ve talked about this once briefly before, but I would love to hear your endorsement for the thing. [00:55:33] Christina: Yeah, no, I think it’s a great little device, right? So it’s, it’s unfortunately you have to wait as long as you did. Like, I was able to be part of the first batch of people who got it. Like I was within, I guess, like the first 8,000 orders or something. And so I got mine probably a month and a half after they started shipping, even though I was in the first batch, um, of, of stuff that I was able to get mine. [00:55:55] Um, I guess I got it back, like in may and. I love it. Like it’s, [00:56:00] it’s adorable. It’s um, it’s whimsical. So it’s one of these things. Like it is not going to be your full-time game machine. Like it’s a nice little kind of, you know, toy. Right. And it, and it’s designed, I think for people like me who have enough disposable income and have like nostalgia and also like the idea of both playing indie games, but also maybe building their own. [00:56:20] And, and I think that was the thing that for me, like they, they have this, this concept of season. So when you buy it, you’ll get two new games every week, um, for six weeks. And then, um, so you wind up with, you know, like, like, like 12 games and, and it, and there they’re fun, but there’s also additional games you can either buy or get for free from H IO or GitHub and the people have created for it. [00:56:42] And then you can build your own, you can side things it’s super easy to do. And people are even building things like GameBoy, emulators and, and other stuff, which is, which is really fun. Like, it’s just sort, it’s a really delightful little device, but, but like you, I think that all the work they’ve put into like the SD. [00:56:58] And like the, [00:57:00] the game engine stuff. Like I actually, I haven’t gotten too far with it. I’ve had other things going on, but I, I want to like build my own game. And the thing is, is the game development is so complex. Now there’s no way that I could even think about trying to do that on, on any other platform to be totally honest, right. [00:57:17] Like, like just both with my artistic skills and also just how much would go into like the, the programming and whatnot. And so the fact that I, I can come up with some ideas of, of like maybe creating my own like little, little small game, I think is, um, That even, even just as an exercise, like even if nobody else ever played it, I think is really fun. [00:57:38] And, and I appreciate that so much about, about panic and about like what this device is, you know, that, that it’s, I, I think that it, it’s not designed to be something that millions and millions of people own, like this is, this is for a specific audience, but I think it’s a really fun device and I’m really, really pleased with it. [00:57:55] And it’s incredibly well made and, um, you know, very, very proud of them. Cause [00:58:00] I know I first used it at XO XO, like a prototype, um, in, in 2019. And um, you know, I, I I’ve been waiting for this thing for, for years. And so I was really excited that, that I was able to get mine and, and um, you know, it’s, it’s really fun. [00:58:19] Jeff: That’s awesome. And how cool, um, that they have that this has been their journey, like when I think it was, so I wanted you to go through Pan’s history because it’s so fascinating to, to see them take this, turn into this very simple looking device that they’ve approached with all of their sort of aesthetic talent and, and care and everything else. [00:58:39] And like, again, I don’t know if this was planned or if it’s just how it ended up, but the fact that you can immerse yourself in this thing without having the physical item is something that I kind of wonder. Maybe that’s like a, an accidental model for things moving forward. As we deal with chip shortages. [00:58:56] Christina: Yeah, maybe. I mean, I think the definitely like they had to kind of [00:59:00] figure out a way early on as they were still working on stuff like, okay, how do we get people to develop this? And so maybe part of it was, you know, creating like a, an SDK maybe out of necessity. And then I think it becomes with the chip shortage even more important. [00:59:13] And, and Pan’s whole ethos. Like I still have someplace, so they sold these, this was, I don’t even know how many years ago, but they made Atari styled software boxes for their apps, like with the Atari drawing style and stuff. And like, they sold them on their web shop and I have them somewhere. So like they’ve always loved games and they’ve always loved this sort of retro nostalgia stuff. [00:59:34] Like that’s always been part of their ethos. And so the play date really fit with all of that, but yeah, I mean, what great timing to be able to have such a fully functional, you know, in SDK, so you can play. Before actually having it. So if you do pre-order one, you can, you know, like, okay, you’re gonna be waiting, you know, sometime into 20, 23 for it, but you, you can, you know, be able to, um, you, you can still like, [01:00:00] get the sense of what it’ll be like and, and, and try games out and things like that. [01:00:05] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. All right. I I’m convinced, I, I partly brought this topic up to convince myself to buy it. Um, and I’m convinced [01:00:13] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely, I mean, I think it is unfortunate that it’s like taking as, as, as long as, as it has, but, um, uh, they don’t have any control over that. Right? Like they, [01:00:24] Jeff: right. [01:00:25] Christina: it, it, it’s, it’s, it’s a crappy situation for them. Um, and I’m sure that they wish that they could do, you know, sell all the things. [01:00:32] But it’s interesting. Cause I got my pocket from a company called analog, which is basically an F PGA like game boy and game boy advance. Um, and so analog is a company that makes very expensive, but well designed, um, and beautifully designed like F PGAs of like exact, you know, like perfected, like, like one-to-one, um, like recreations of things like the super Nintendo or the Nintendo or the sake of Genesises. [01:00:55] And then the pocket handheld is kind of like, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s an expensive, [01:01:00] you know, GameBoy advance game, boy, color, whatever. Uh, you may have original game boy. And I got that a few months before I got the play date. And I’ll be honest with you. I’ve spent it a lot more time with the play date. [01:01:11] I think not the, the pocket is more, um, powerful and I can play real games on it and whatnot, uh, real games, meaning like real like games from my childhood for like Tetris and, and super Mario brothers and things like that. But I think the play date just has a lot of, um, you know, like. More more fun in terms of just it’s just whimsy. [01:01:35] I don’t know. I love it. [01:01:37] Jeff: Yeah. It’s like, it’s just one of those, one of those products that just is like beckoning you [01:01:42] Christina: Totally, totally. And like, I like, like I said, I think for, like, for, I think for like perfect people and not perfect people, I think that for certain people, this is just a really perfect product. That’s what I was trying to say for certain people. This is a really perfect product. It’s not for everyone, but for the people that it is for, I think that it’s like really [01:02:00] good. [01:02:00] So. [01:02:01] Jeff: yeah. Yeah. Awesome. You got some gratitude. [01:02:05] Christina: Yeah, I’m, uh, I’m trying to kind of, uh, narrow it down slash find something for my gratitude. Okay. Actually, this, this is one, um, I, uh, it’s not widely available yet. It is just in private preview, but it will, it will be coming open, but this is cool. So the visual studio code team just announced slash, um, I guess it’s, it’s an, I still don’t have access yet, but I will have it soon. [01:02:27] Um, from, from what they tell me a visual studio code server. And so what this is is one of my favorite parts of visual studio code for the last probably four years or three years or whatever has been there, remote development extension. And that has, um, basically means that you can, um, Have like, you know, code running on another machine and you can kind of like SSH or, uh, you know, do whatever else into it and then be accessing all of your builds and your extensions and stuff [01:03:00] using the web interface or, um, even like a local vs code instance on your, on your, um, you know, a laptop or, or Chromebook or iPad or, or, uh, what have you. [01:03:10] And so, um, it it’s been a, a really, really, um, great way to like for windows, for instance, this was, I think kind of it’s, it’s it’s original kind of conception was the idea would be like, okay, if I’m using the windows subsystem for a Linux, I want all my Linux tools and user land stuff. And so I can have all of, you know, like my versions of open SSL and I can have like, like my like new tool chain and I can have all of my versions of Python or, or, you know, note or whatever I want without having to, you know, deal with the complexities of having that running under windows. [01:03:43] I can have all that running in my, you know, fully, you know, baked like Linux environment, but I’m able to access that transparently using visual studio code for windows. So I’m using the native interface that I know and love. But all the tooling and everything is actually executing [01:04:00] on the Linux side. And that’s great. [01:04:03] And so you then saw a number of, of, of, um, you know, different, uh, uh, companies like the code server and, and GI pod and some other, um, People who would kind of create a way where you’re like, okay, you can run, you know, um, instances of a visual studio, um, in the cloud. And, and again, like, okay, I’ve got a VPs server somewhere that I’m paying five or $10 a month for, and that’s pretty powerful. [01:04:27] And I’m having that run all of my coding environment stuff, and then I’m just using whatever front end I want from whatever machine I happen to be on at the time, which is pretty powerful, uh, that then led to things like a visual studio code space or excuse me, GitHub code spaces, uh, which is like a, basically the same thing where it’s a cloud, um, based, uh, thing that you pay for. [01:04:48] And basically you can create a machine of how, what, however powerful you want it to be. And it’s running all of your, um, your, your code stuff, but you’re able to access it natively. In, or on the [01:05:00] web, in, in visual studio code, um, without having to mess up your own machine, install things locally that way. [01:05:07] And it makes it a really easy way to set up like dev boxes or do things for tutorials and, and other stuff. Um, but one of the things with that has been like, as much as like, I love get, have code spaces, like, okay, but what if I don’t wanna pay for it? What if I wanna run this locally in my server, my closet or something. [01:05:25] And so, um, the, the visual studio code team just announced, uh, a couple weeks ago, something called visual studio code server, which basically is they’re, they’re gonna be opensourcing and basically, you know, letting it it’s a CLI and a server code that you could run on your remote machine or wherever you wanna develop against. [01:05:43] And then you can, um, basically. Create whatever kinds of, of dev instances you would want there. And then kind of transparently like using, uh, vsco.dev access, those, those machines and instances. [01:06:00] So this will make developing on an iPad really, really easy. And, and, and, and, and it’ll be free or free insofar as like, you know, you just bring your own compute. [01:06:09] So if you wanted to install it on a VPs, you can, if you have a server in your closet, like I do, you can do that. Or if you have a more powerful home machine that you always have on and connected, and you want that to be kind of home base, and that’s where you want your builds and your Docker containers and all that stuff to live, you can do that. [01:06:24] But then from any of your other machines, you could just go to vsco.dev and like log in and have access to that stuff. Whether you’re on an iPad or a Chromebook or a laptop that doesn’t have those versions of, of Python or node or, or, you know, uh, C sharper or whatever installed, and you don’t have to go or even Docker, and you don’t have to go through that, that process of setting those things up. [01:06:46] You’re just remotely executing things. Um, basically in the cloud go kind of transparently, you know, in, you know, a native app or your web browser. [01:06:56] Jeff: Awesome. That’s awesome. [01:06:57] Christina: So, so, so vs code server, which, um, [01:07:00] again is in private preview, but it’ll be opened up to more people. You can, there’s a sign up form. We’ve got the links in the show notes, but I’m actually pretty excited about this. [01:07:07] So that’s, uh, that’s my pick. [01:07:10] Jeff: Nice. There it is. The first ever, uh, Christina, Jeff Overtired. [01:07:18] Christina: I like it. I like it. I, I, um, I, I would love to talk more about you. Like, I’d love to hear from you. We should have our own kind of like side chat sometime. I wanna hear about how you got into music, journalism and, and journalism in general. And like, I would love to like, hear, like what your, what your, um, process was in journey, [01:07:35] Jeff: it was largely to stumble without falling [01:07:40] Christina: which is great though. Right. Because cuz now you’ve been doing it for however many years. Like it’s it’s, which is really incredible. So [01:07:47] Jeff: Awesome. Well, we can always talk about that. Um, and uh, next week we’ll be back the three of us. [01:07:53] Christina: yep. [01:07:54] Jeff: Um, I sure hope you get some sleep. [01:07:57] Christina: Get some sleep chef. [01:07:59] Jeff: it’s some sleep[01:08:00]

Jeff is back and he has stories to tell. Lots of mental health in this one, plus tips for the savvy traveler. Sponsor SimpliSafe has everything you need to keep your home safe — from entry and motion sensors to indoor and outdoor cameras. Visit simplisafe.com/overtired and claim a free indoor security camera plus 20% off with Interactive Monitoring. TextExpander: The tool your hosts wouldn’t want to live without. Save time typing on Mac, Windows, iOS, and the web. Overtired listeners can save 20% on their first year by visiting TextExpander.com. Show Links Packing cubes Hyperjuice charger Cocoon backpacks Noteplan Astrofox Gifski and Gifski GUI (Mac App Store) Join the Community See you on Discord! Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Small P Prepper [00:00:00] Jeff: [00:00:03] Hello. Hello, ear holes across America and the world. This is, this is the Overtired podcast. I’m Jeff severance. Gunzel and I’m here with my cohosts, Christina Warren and Brett Terpstra. And we’re all back together. This is the reunion show. Um, it’s really great. Like most, uh, band reunions. I’m a little I’m, you know, I’ve gained a little weight. [00:00:26] I’ve got I’m a little, you know, my face is a little bigger. Um, but here I am. Let’s go. [00:00:33] Brett: Have you seen the, do you follow the circle? Jerks on Instagram? Just outta curiosity. [00:00:38] Jeff: No, I was never a fan. [00:00:40] Brett: Okay. [00:00:42] Jeff: I don’t wanna make you mad. I don’t wanna make you mad. [00:00:44] Brett: no, they just, they’re so old and they’re still doing it [00:00:48] Christina: Yeah, I, I don’t even know who the circle jerks are. [00:00:51] Brett: really [00:00:52] Christina: No, I have no. [00:00:53] Brett: live fast, die young. This is no. [00:00:57] Jeff: I know. Well, who the, [00:00:58] Brett: Old it’s [00:00:59] Jeff: are. I have [00:01:00] never gone through a whole album. [00:01:02] Brett: Old punk rock. [00:01:03] Christina: Okay. Okay. I mean, I felt like I heard some stuff. I probably would be familiar because like the punk rock of my generation, which is like, you know, like pop punk ripped that stuff off. But [00:01:14] Brett: don’t think they ever had a chart topper of any kind. [00:01:17] Christina: Oh no, I I’m not, I’m not saying that I’m saying like that stuff, like it becomes I interpolated and, and inspired and whatnot, but yeah, no, I, uh, I Nope. [00:01:27] Brett: So Jeff, you [00:01:28] Jeff: uh, when it, when it comes to, let me just say this, when it comes to the classic punk rock, I’ve always had this sort of attitude. This is true of hardcore too, where I just, I kind of reach back and I pick one or I pick two, so I’ve got black flag. Right. And, and, and I, I come forward with them when it came to hardcore, I had bad brains and I kind of moved forward in life with them, but I never really spread out in, in, uh, hardcore or in that early, especially west coast, [00:01:54] Brett: who’s your black, who’s your black flag front man of choice. [00:01:58] Jeff: Um, [00:02:00] I don’t know, I I’ll take Henry Rawlins. I liked them all. I just enjoyed it [00:02:04] Brett: same. Like, I like used to be like, oh, Chavo or bust and not man Henry Rollins. He, he was black flag. You, you can’t deny black flag with Henry Rollins. It, [00:02:15] Jeff: Well, and it was weird. Like he, you know, pictures of him all like muscled out and like squat kneeling on [00:02:21] Brett: uh, [00:02:22] Jeff: a little aggressive. Like there was the thing about black flag. And especially with him was like, there was just, there was definitely too much testosterone, but, but it was, it was a learning band for me. [00:02:33] It was a band that was a link in the chain and helped me understand how we got from one place to another. So that’s how I think of them. [00:02:40] Brett: yeah. [00:02:40] Jeff: Anyway. [00:02:41] Brett: So you got, you got the COVID Jeff. [00:02:43] Jeff: I got the COVID. Yeah, I happened to get COVID a few days before my family was supposed to leave for a meticulously planned trip to Kenya to visit, uh, a good friend of mine who has an organic farm there. [00:02:57] And then to also go to the coast of Kenya. Um, [00:03:00] and, uh, yeah, we had been planning that one for quite a while. Uh, and it was a huge disappointment and I had not gotten COVID yet. So this was my first COVID and I got it just in time to cancel like a really, really special trip. And because we booked a lot of that trip with points and because. [00:03:17] The way airlines are like . Whereas we had paid about $600 a person for our tickets that we were going to use to go, um, to rebook tickets ranged from 2000 to 9,000 per person. And, um, this just wasn’t gonna work out. And so, um, and I got really sick for a few days. Like I didn’t have the kind of like, ah, it’s just like having a head cold. [00:03:39] Like I had a few days of just rolling around being like, make it and, and, um, and then a few more days of just really intense, uh, fatigue and just feeling really, really out of it. My wife and I were both kind of relieved when on the day we should have been flying out. I felt really terrible, cuz it just would’ve been hard if I was, I [00:03:59] Christina: Oh, [00:04:00] yeah. [00:04:00] Jeff: if I was having like COVID light and I was just like, I’m fine. [00:04:03] And we [00:04:03] Christina: Oh no, [00:04:04] Jeff: is leaving. [00:04:05] Christina: 100%. Like, like yeah, no, no, you needed it to be all in. Were you able to get like, at least refunded your points and stuff or. [00:04:13] Jeff: everything was refunded. No problem with that. Thank God. And, um, and we were able to kind of pull ourselves together and actually like improvise a really fun family road trip out west where, uh, the kind of main anchor was Yellowstone, but really it was about just being in Wyoming, which my family had never been. [00:04:31] I love Wyoming. Um, and I love it way more than South Dakota, which neighbors, it, uh, Minnesota has South Dakota on one side and, uh, Wisconsin on the other. And there are, those are both states that just feel this sort of it’s like they have some kind of complex to announce their politics above all else. [00:04:49] And when you’re in Wyoming, man, we saw, we drove around Wyoming for three or four days. I saw one Trump flag, but you know, there’s a lot of Trump supporters [00:04:56] Christina: Oh, yeah, the whole state, the whole state is like mud Trump supporters. It’s [00:04:59] Brett: [00:05:00] all, [00:05:00] Christina: are like five people who live. I was gonna say, I was gonna say, it’s like, Montana’s the same way? Like, like there are like 10 people in each state. Um, yet they each get, you know, electoral college shows, but regardless. [00:05:13] Brett: Yeah. [00:05:14] Jeff: the boys when we were rolling into Wyoming, I’m like, here’s at the oath Wyoming. It’s like 2000 people, 5,000 horses and you know, maybe 20,000 guns. And you know, other than that, but I love Wyoming. I really do. I, it honestly feels like the west. It feels like the mythical west and that’s not all good. [00:05:31] Of course. Right. [00:05:32] Christina: sure. But no, but, but yet, [00:05:34] Jeff: Oh, it’s like going to another country for a, certainly for a Midwesterner and certainly for Midwestern teenage boys, you know? Um, so it was super cool. We pulled that together and just kind of improvised it along the way, because there had been a lot of flooding and the park had only just opened, uh, Yellowstone was actually pretty dead. [00:05:53] And so we didn’t have the experience of like, you know, massive car lines and whatever else. [00:06:00] And very importantly, there is something that my family refers to as the Gunzel South Dakota curse. My father in trying to take us on trips over the years had a lot of mishaps. The one that I most remember was being in South Dakota. [00:06:16] I think we were headed for Yellowstone, which I’ve never been to because of this. If that’s the case and all of our luggage was stolen by a motorcycle gang. [00:06:24] Christina: Oh, my [00:06:24] Jeff: And, and this was back in the day when like, you know, families were traveling with like cash, right. Or maybe checks, but mostly cash. And so we were, and they’re public school teachers, so we didn’t have a lot of money. [00:06:34] So we had to go to JC Penney and buy the cheapest, like shirts and shorts we could find. And I ended up with like a wardrobe of like clearance racks, South Dakota shirts that I had to wear the rest of the trip. And, and then eventually the luggage was found and actually mailed back to my father with maggot and everything. [00:06:54] I mean, like all kinds of weird bugs. And for some reason, the sheriff was like, here you go, there [00:07:00] was nothing in it. He’s like we found it, wanted to give it back to you. So anyhow, we broke the South Dakota. Curse, except for one thing, which is just a quick, very quick one thing. So I got the whole front end of my minivan fixed, uh, before we left for the trip, we picked it up and left for the trip, right. [00:07:18] And about two hours into our trip, our left front wheel starts rattling, like really intensely. We pull over. To sleep for the night so we can call a mechanic in the morning. My mechanic says, oh, I don’t think that’s a problem. You can, you can keep going. You know, but if you feel like it’s grave danger, bring it in. [00:07:35] And so there happened to be a mechanic next to our hotel. I brought it in and it turns out two of the bolts holding the caliper of important part of my brakes to my wheel had just fallen out on the trip. And we were in a situation where had we not pulled over it would’ve seized our wheel. And if we were on the highway, we could have just flipped. [00:07:53] And, and it would’ve been this just totally horrible accident. But the key is, this was before we got [00:08:00] into South Dakota. So the gun curse didn’t count. So we got it in time. We got it fixed and everything was beautiful from them, but that was chilling. And I just wanna say to people, if your mechanic says that bump is not a big deal, here’s why. [00:08:13] Don’t listen. [00:08:15] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. He’s just being a lazy ass. Holy shit. You could [00:08:18] Jeff: he was shook when I told him what it was, he was shook. He was like, that’s really bad. And [00:08:24] Christina: Yeah. Cuz that’s his fault. That’s 100% his [00:08:27] Jeff: Bad. Yeah, [00:08:28] Christina: exactly. That, that that’s him being fucking lazy and not like bolting the, the shit down [00:08:33] Jeff: or someone in the shop. Yeah. [00:08:35] Christina: and, and then being doubly lazy and being like, yeah, I don’t wanna check this out. It’s fine. [00:08:40] Jeff: Right, [00:08:40] Christina: Like honestly, like you need, you need a new mechanic. [00:08:44] Jeff: I’ve never had a mechanic, which this guy in Minnesota, in St. James Minnesota did, when he saw what was wrong. I’ve never had a mechanic say, you’re gonna wanna come out here and take a picture. just to like, you want evidence that these bolts were missing. [00:08:59] Christina: Yeah, no, totally. [00:09:00] And I’m just saying like, like, so thanks to the St. James Guy who, thankfully you’re not in, in South Dakota. Um, and also like listening to these stories, are you sure your dad wasn’t like John Hughes? Like, I, I know his stuff was like the Chicago land area, but like, are you sure? Cause this sounds like this sounds like, you know, um, vacation stuff, like, you know, national lampoons vacation stuff, like the motorcycle gang stealing the luggage, you know, almost having like the car, like literally fall apart because the brakes aren’t attacked. [00:09:30] Like this is, this is genuinely like, like national Lampoon stuff. [00:09:35] Jeff: It is amazing. It is amazing but we beat it. [00:09:39] Brett: without, without, uh, without violating any medical privacy for anyone, do you know how you got coronavirus? [00:09:48] Jeff: Um, you know, frankly, uh, and I’m really embarrassed to say this, that, like, I, I also understand how it happened and I shouldn’t, I’m not super embarrassed. Um, [00:10:00] we just like completely let our defenses down and EV and, and, and like that could have been it’s one thing, if we weren’t going on a vacation. But the fact that we were going on a vacation should have meant that we were masked everywhere, in my opinion, like in, in what happened with us and. And in one, just one very specific case. I went to a place that I know, well, my son, they were helping my son, uh, work on his vintage gaming PC. Um, and we all can, can appreciate this. It was like, it was how to load like an audio driver on windows 95 so he can play so he can get the full sound from doom [00:10:44] And this is a place that’s really basically empty. It’s like a really cool little space where they call it a retro tech thrift store. It’s called free geek in twin cities. And, um, It’s basically empty in the past. People were always wearing masks. And I, I know there are people that’ll [00:11:00] listen to this and like be banging their head against the, um, whatever device is playing this podcast. [00:11:06] But like, I was comfortable there and I felt like it had always been a place. I was comfortable. People were always wearing masks. And we were at a point here where everything was so, so low. We had not started to have this current, um, spike that we have. I think actually I was on the front end of that. Um, and so we sat in there for like three or four hours. [00:11:23] Couple people came and went and that’s the one time I know I was unasked for a long time in one place. And, and that might have well, have been what did it, so, [00:11:32] Christina: I mean, it could have been that it, it also could have been any other thing. I mean like the, the current variant is so contagious that even if you were masked, if you weren’t in an N 95, there’s, if you’re there for three or four hours and it could have been any other place and you’re around people, like when I got Omicron, it was, I was masked and I was triple vs. [00:11:50] And I was like a month out of my, I, I had my booster, like my second, you know, my, my first booster for like a month. Right. Like, so it, it still should have been, you [00:12:00] know, you would’ve thought like, like at its apex and I was masking everywhere. Didn’t matter, you know, like, like, like you, you, you, you can try to like, say yes, we were going on vacation. [00:12:11] We should have taken more precautions. I would argue, like, you still tested and, and figured this stuff out before you got on a plane. Right. [00:12:20] Jeff: Well, yeah, we were still testing all the time and you know, like for sure. And with me too, like the thing about me and masks is like, I mean, nobody can see me here, but I’ve sort of like, got like a, a big face with a beard. And when I put a mask on, I know I’m getting stuff in and stuff is going out. [00:12:38] There’s no mask I’ve ever found that where I feel like, oh, this is a good seal. Um, and so it could also be that I was masked somewhere and I got it, cuz this stuff is just moving around so fast. So, so I got it. [00:12:51] Brett: I’m getting ready for max stack this weekend and I’ve been more like we’re in the green right now, as far as community spread goes. [00:13:00] So I, I do let my, my guard down. Um, I, I went to the co-op without a mask this week in general. I’ve been pretty good about masking everywhere, just as a precaution, um, we’ll test before, uh, before we take off tomorrow, um, I do have at least one good friend who is missing because he tested positive and he is asymptomatic. [00:13:22] Like you were saying, like, you were thankful that you were symptomatic on the day you were supposed to leave. He’s asymptomatic. And that’s very frustrating to him, uh, because he feels fine, but you know, based on guidelines, gotta quarantine. [00:13:37] Jeff: Well in travels 10 days, you know, and we were just like, yeah, I respect that. We would. I mean, like Christina, to your point, like, I’m just glad I caught it before I went on two different planes to how many different countries, um, and brought it to a place that where whose numbers are actually pretty good, you know, like I’m super grateful that it was not a hard decision. [00:13:58] I mean, we were instantly just like, this is not [00:14:00] happening. You know, I can imagine, I, I know people, I, I can imagine people who would be like, well, if I’m symptomatic, I’ll just keep it quiet, you know? [00:14:07] Christina: Yeah, no. [00:14:08] Jeff: back in anymore. [00:14:09] Christina: Well, that’s what I was gonna say. Like, like there, there are a lot of people who, and, and I’m not even necessarily gonna, like some people I know who listen to this podcast will probably like wanna like condemn all those people, but I’m, I’m not going to, like, I can understand if you’re asymptomatic or, or not feeling bad. [00:14:25] And you know, it, you’re also maybe not, it’s not a PCR test and, and you don’t have to test to get out or to get in. And, and you’re like, fuck it. You know, I’ll just, again, the same as is, is any other kind of illness in the past? It’s not like people wouldn’t travel, you know, when they, when they were sick, you know, um, this is obviously different, but I’m just saying, I do understand. [00:14:47] I’m just glad that you caught it. Like it, to me, the, what would’ve been bad, would’ve been like, if you were not symptomatic or, or it was in the early things and you were on the plane, not just potentially getting people [00:15:00] sick, but then you being sick in Kenya, you know, sick on the airplane like that, would’ve just been, been awful. [00:15:06] Jeff: When it does seem to come so fast. My, my teenager was at a, a gathering with some friends the other night and at about 12 30, 1 of them just started instantly feeling like terrible. And then she tested and tested positive. [00:15:19] Christina: Yeah, that happened. [00:15:20] Jeff: fast. [00:15:21] Christina: Yeah, that happened with, and I, I was concerned before I, I was very concerned. I was testing before I, I went to, um, uh, Copenhagen because I had been around someone who it was the same thing. Like we were in the same space and we weren’t like super close near each other, but we were definitely in the, in the same like room and space. [00:15:38] And she just started feeling terrible and was like, I, I, I, I gotta go. And she was like, you know, cuz she, she gives me a ride home. Sometimes she was like, I can’t give you a ride today. I was like, that’s fine. I was like, no, you actually like need to leave and put a mask on and like leave if you’re not feeling good, you know? [00:15:51] But it like, it hit her like instantly and then she tested positive that night. And then I was freaked out cuz I was like, I’m supposed to get on a [00:16:00] plane in X days. I feel totally fine. You know, I, I, I was testing and I, I was okay, but, you know, but it was one of those things where I was like, I don’t wanna infect anyone, but I also don’t feel bad. [00:16:12] So, yeah. But so you’re right. Like I think it hits people real quick. [00:16:20] Jeff: definitely. And all through my trip, people coughing, sneezing, you know, like it was, it really feels, I mean, at least, I dunno if it’s like this for you all, but for me in Minneapolis, like once I got sick, um, right after that, we started hearing a just friend after friend, not people had been in contact with, to be clear, [00:16:38] Christina: Right, right. [00:16:38] Jeff: it just seemed like there’s a wave. [00:16:40] And then you have, you can look at the stance for your state, but they’re kind of meaningless [00:16:43] Christina: They are [00:16:44] Jeff: you know, [00:16:44] Christina: well, cuz they’re trailing indicators. Right. So I mean, and, and we we’ve seen now, you know, that there is like a surge in a lot of places, so yeah. I mean, people look it’s, this is not going away. This is never going to go away. We’re going to have to find ways to like deal with it. Um, I’m just glad that you were able [00:17:00] to like, you know, make, um, you know, eliminate out of the situation, have a really good family trip, see Yosemite and, and be, you know, like, like have like a great experience that way, get, get your points back and, and your money back on your trip, cuz like that would’ve been awful. [00:17:15] Um, and, and then, you know, figure out travel right now is also a shit show. So you might have dodged a little bit of a bullet, um, even in, in that regard, like it might be better like, you know, to replan when you can go back and, and visit your friend. Um, uh, and, and his farm, like when things are not as terrible, cuz the, the airports and, and. [00:17:35] That situation. It I’ve never ever it’s it’s bad. It’s bad. [00:17:40] Jeff: mm. Yeah. [00:17:43] Brett: Can I, uh, Can I tell you about a sponsor? [00:17:46] Jeff: You wanna tell us about a sponsor? Is it related to being sick or trying to cure yourself from it? [00:17:52] Brett: I cannot, I, I do not have a segue for this. [00:17:56] Jeff: Wrong sponsor. All right, go ahead. [00:17:57] Brett: do you know, I [00:18:00] could do something with like feeling safe in a mask and then feeling safe at home. [00:18:04] Christina: Yes. See, I was gonna say, I was gonna say I was gonna do that. That’s exactly perfect. [00:18:08] Brett: okay. Damn. All right. So, so worrying a mask can make you feel safe, but sometimes you wanna feel safe when you’re at home. [00:18:16] Sponsor: Simplisafe [00:18:16] Brett: Today’s episode of Overtired is brought to you by simply safe home security here at Overtired, we believe home should be the safest place on earth for every family. That’s why we recommend simply safe. [00:18:28] Simply safe is advanced whole home security that puts you your home and your family’s safety first. Here’s why we love it. Simply safe offers comprehensive protection, not only against intruders and burglary. But against expensive home hazards from flooding to fires with 24 7 professional monitoring, simply safes agents take action. [00:18:50] The moment a threat is detected dispatching police or first responders in an emergency. Even if you’re not home, simply safe uses [00:19:00] proprietary video verification technology so that monitoring agents can visually confirm the threat in order to get higher priority 9 1 1 dispatch monitoring plans are affordably priced at a dollar a day with no long term contract or hidden fees, because feeling safe at home shouldn’t break the bank. [00:19:19] You can customize the perfect system for your home in just a few minutes@simplysafe.com slash Overtired. Go today and claim a free indoor security camera. Plus 20% off with interactive monitoring. Go to simply safe.com/ Overtired. That’s S I M P L I S a F E. Dot com slash Overtired. I edited, I edited this by the time people hear it, but man, that took me a couple takes. [00:19:47] There’s some real tongue twisters in there. [00:19:49] Christina: was gonna say lots of SSEs. Lots of SSEs. [00:19:53] Brett: Um, uh, Jeff, do you want to go ahead and tell us about tech expander while we’re, uh, we’re we’re on a little sponsor break. [00:19:58] Sponsor: TextExpander [00:19:58] Jeff: Yeah, I, I can, [00:20:00] I can do that for you. uh, get your team communicating faster so they can focus on what’s most important with text expander. Your team’s knowledge is at their fingertips. Get your whole team on the same page by getting information out of silos and into the hands of everyone that needs to use it. [00:20:16] You can share your team’s knowledge across departments. So your team is sending a unified message to your customers and isn’t spending time reinventing the wheel. Here’s how it works. First. You store it, keep your company’s most used emails, phrases, messaging, URLs, and more right within the text. Expander. [00:20:35] Within the text expander, uh right there. You know what? Put it right there in the text, expander over there by the microwave. Um and then you could share it. You can get your whole team access to all the content they need to use every day. Then you expand it, deploy the content you need with just a few keystrokes on any device across any apps you use. [00:20:56] It’s that easy text expander is available on Mac windows, [00:21:00] Chrome, iPhone, iPad windows 95. Um, Overtired listeners get 20% off their first year. Visit text expander.com/podcast. To learn more about text expander. [00:21:15] Brett: Thanks tech expander. [00:21:17] Jeff: Thank you so [00:21:17] Brett: So there are people out there. I’m not gonna say like it’s a, a huge number of people, but they have begun referring to the mental health corner as the MHC. Like it’s their favorite part of the show and they’ve given it an initialism, the, the MHC. So you guys ready for the MHC? [00:21:39] Jeff: Mm. Yep. [00:21:41] Brett: Jeff? I feel like. [00:21:43] Jeff: I live my whole life in the MHC. [00:21:45] Brett: It’s been a while. Let’s hear from Jeff. [00:21:47] Christina: Absolutely [00:21:48] Jeff: hear, let’s hear from Jeff. Um, my mental health corner, my MHC. Um, well, one thing is post COVID. Uh, [00:22:00] I’ve had some pretty intense brain fog and I just can’t tell for sure if I should attribute it to medication to stress or to long COVID pew, pew, pew. I don’t know what we would do after we say long COVID, but anyway, um, and, and that’s been kind of, it’s actually been kind of intense for me. [00:22:20] Like I’ve really had some. Moments where I don’t know what it is I’m trying to think or say. And, um, and that’s something I’m really struggling with. Um, and hopefully it will get better. I mean, I’m kind of, part of it is that like I’ve been away from routine for so long. Um, in the week prior to getting ready for Kenya, I was like, you know, getting ready to leave the country for two and a half weeks. [00:22:46] And so that was just kind of a wild time. And then I got COVID and that was just a, you know, shut down from everything situation. And then as I sort of started recovering from COVID, um, we decided to do this road trip, which by the way, [00:23:00] was in the safe distance after my getting COVID. Um, and so then I was on a road trip and for me. [00:23:06] For me like road trips. I used to be in a band that toured a lot. And, um, I just love road trips more than anything. I love I, what I love the most and what I loved the most about this particular trip was like, I’m, I’m down to like the real primary things. Like I am driving a van. I am a father of two boys who are in the back. [00:23:27] Actually the tallest one who’s now taller than me is sometimes in the front. I am the husband of the woman who is usually sitting next to me in the car. and, uh, and I’m the owner of that van. And that’s really that’s, that’s it. That’s who I am and we’re on the road and there’s no real clear rules and there’s no real big decisions to make, besides where are we gonna stay each night? [00:23:47] And I love that feeling. And that simplicity so, so much, um, that it was really hard to come home from. And when I did come home, you know, I just have a lot waiting for me here. [00:24:00] Um, whether it’s work stuff or there’s just house projects, there’s just a, a million different things that, that were not present and didn’t have to be present in that minivan, driving across the country. [00:24:12] And so coming back to it has been hard and it has forced sort of an existential crisis in a way, which is totally my style. Like, I, I am very quick to existential crisis. Like it it’s like I am, I am probably, I have the shortest path to existential crisis of anyone. I know. And so when I, when I came home, it was like, what do I, what do I let back in? [00:24:33] And in what order, and how about this stuff that I don’t really wanna let back in, like some of these unfinished projects or whatever else, right. Like, I was just kinda, it took me a minute to. Come back to reality and to grieve the simplicity, especially I have two teenage boys. So like the it’s so cool to be so close. [00:24:53] Um, cuz we’re not close. They spread all over the house and they’re doing their thing and God knows what and they go to bed after me and whatever. [00:25:00] And so like, it was really cool for the four of us to just be that physically close all the time and we get along. So that, that worked well um, so anyway, so I got back and that was just, that’s what I’m kind of coming out of right now. [00:25:14] Um, but in the midst of that, I actually, this is just a PSA to everyone out there who takes meds without getting into how it happened. It was just a series of miscommunications, but I ended up having to go four days without, um, my search lane and you’re not supposed to just cold stop that stuff. Like there are consequences to it and um, and. [00:25:38] And it was part of the reason it was four days is cuz I ran out on the weekend. Um, and then there was just some really poor communication issues with my medication manager, my pharmacy, whatever. So it went like four days, maybe five days without Citraline and um, and it was awful. Like I got extreme nausea, um, at [00:26:00] first and then I was able to find a friend who took Citraline and I went and got, you know, that one pill from him thinking that’s all I needed, but then I had a couple more days and um, Yesterday was the, the, you know, just before I actually was able to get the prescription, like, so I’d had all these waves of intense nausea. [00:26:18] I had felt really fatigued. Um, but man, I had some, I had some stuff happen yesterday. Like some nervous twitches, like my jaw was sort of twitching. Um, I had to go out and fix . I have a tarp hung up in our backyard right now between our driveway and the, um, and the alley. And it was, uh, it was blowing in a, like a, kind of a windstorm and I was out there trying to fix it. [00:26:43] And the. The experience of the pressure of the tarp blowing on me was amplified like by a hundred. And the sound of it was like amplified by a hundred. And I was just like, I really felt like I was losing my shit. And so just a warning to everybody, like, [00:27:00] get ahead of it cuz you don’t wanna find out what it’s like and it takes a day or so before it starts hitting. [00:27:06] But like, man, it hit different every day after that. And it really, really scared me. [00:27:12] Brett: I will say, [00:27:13] Jeff: health. [00:27:14] Brett: like, I’m on a, I’m on a med. Uh Lamictil that you’re not supposed to go off of suddenly. Um, and I, my like my personal reaction to going off it is very much like, um, Like narcotic withdrawal. Um, I get like my skin’s crawling and I get nauseous and headachey. And, um, my pharmacy, I use a small pharmacy where they know me by name. [00:27:42] Um, if something happens with my psychiatrist, uh, if they fail to call in my refill on time, um, if any insurance problems happen, they will front me up to four days of [00:27:57] Jeff: Mm. Oh, that’s [00:27:58] Brett: without, [00:28:00] without a valid prescription. Um, because you know, I’ve been getting it for years now. Um, they know that that prescription will eventually come through and that is to me, one of the benefits. [00:28:10] It’s why I refused to my insurance company, wanted me to switch all that over to mail order. Um, but I really I’ve benefited greatly from having a pharmacy that knows me by name, uh, because exactly because of situations like that. [00:28:29] Christina: Yeah. Um, I had a similar thing. Um, when I lived in Atlanta where it was a chain, it was public’s pharmacy, but the pharmacist like the, the, the head pharmacist, um, Ray, who was just a wonderful lady, like knew me and would, would do the same thing, you know, for, as you brought as something happened. But yeah, withdrawal is not a joke and it can be different for every medication and it can depending on the half life, but it is, it is not a joke and it can fuck you up and it can take a while to come back in. [00:28:57] So I’m really sorry. You’ve had to go through that because that [00:29:00] is not fun. [00:29:01] Jeff: Yeah, thank you. It was not fun. I’ve had many versions. Oh, go ahead. [00:29:06] Brett: I can relate to this, uh, reintegration when, when, like, I mean, there are myriad ways it could happen. But to simplify your life and to only have to focus on something as simple as where are we gonna stay tonight? And the rest of it is just take it as it comes and then you have to reintegrate into adulting. [00:29:28] Um, I, I, I feel you, that is like for when I, this always, it always comes back around to drugs for me. But, um, the beauty of being addicted to drugs for me was always how simple it was. My only concern in life was the next fix. And like, nothing else really mattered. I could survive, you know, I’d get through I, but nothing else mattered. [00:29:55] And now I live a life where so many things matter and it’s, [00:30:00] it’s hard to be an adult and the simplicity, like going on a vacation. Yeah. I get that. I hear you. [00:30:07] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s great. It’s great. I mean, also this thing makes me think about like, you know, back after George Floyd was murdered and, and we had a really chaotic, intense period of time here with the uprising and then the military coming in and my own pharmacy, um, was actually wasn’t, it wasn’t burned, but it was looted as most of the pharmacies around here were, and there were like bullet holes in the glass of the drive through thing or whatever. [00:30:34] And I could not get my meds. Uh, I had to get it all switched out, but most of the pharmacies in the area were looted. So it was like trying to find like, oh, I guess I can go out to the outer suburbs for my, but anyway, it makes me realize that it, it, I am a small P prepper and I, I, it makes me think that like, I actually wanna have just, I wanna have 30 days of every bit of my medication or whatever it takes to kind of wind down from it in case something happens again, because the crazy thing [00:31:00] about that period of time was like, All the stuff you think wouldn’t happen. [00:31:04] Like, should you keep a tank full of gas? Why? Well, all our gas stations burned. Um, it’s like, that’s exactly why anyway, it makes me think about that. And I was gonna say too, that like on the withdrawal front, and this is a data point of one, but I, I have something to share. I learned from my medication manager, it’s like, so I take this medication called Seroquel. [00:31:23] And one of the things that it can do, that’s really, really hard to manage is it can cause really rapid weight gain, which it did in me. It caused me to gain about 20 pounds. I’m a big guy already, like pretty quickly. And, um, and it put me right into like pre-diabetes, uh, mode. Right. And so. Yeah. So I managed to do like a month before our trip of, of eating, like a very, a very limited diet, um, that brought it back down. [00:31:52] And now I have to like, try to figure out how to keep myself where I’m at. Not because of anything, not even any body image, nothing like that. Just like [00:32:00] it put me into pre-diabetes and, and I, I have diabetes in the family and I just didn’t wanna go all the way if I, you know, if I can avoid it. So I started pulling back on how muchs I would take during the day and at night. [00:32:13] And that actually [00:32:15] Brett: without guidance from, without [00:32:17] Jeff: without guidance. No, I was under the impression I was under the impression I, I had a range I could work in. Cause even my prescription was like one to two morning, whatever. [00:32:25] Brett: that’s true sometimes, but you have to be explicitly told that [00:32:29] Jeff: And I, and I talked to my, so what confused me was that my bottle actually said one to two morning, afternoon and night. [00:32:36] Right. So I was, yeah. And so I [00:32:39] Brett: What are the, how many are these? A hundred milligram? A hundred milligram tablets. [00:32:43] Jeff: Well, hold on. Let’s let’s go ahead and shake, rattle the can here. Um, I forget. And I’m going away now. Oh, they’re 50. They’re 50. [00:32:51] Brett: 50. Okay. That’s a pretty one to two. That’s a, that’s pretty severe. [00:32:56] Jeff: I know. So anyway, I mean, yes. All, all of what you’re saying is right. Like [00:33:00] that’s exactly the problem, right. Is that I misunderstood it as something I could just do and, and that had its own, uh, serious issues. So just to everybody out there, like don’t mess with it and keep it moving [00:33:13] Christina: and, and talk to your medication manager and like, make sure that they don’t put shit like that on the, on, on the, the bottle without you understanding why it says that, like, maybe they’re doing that cuz they wanna get you extras. Right. Which is fine. Or, or maybe they like, if you’re cuz certain sensitive medications that I’ve had to do this where. [00:33:32] I’ve had to literally cut the pills to a certain extent because the, the amount that, um, it, you know, if it’s like a tablet, because the, the available prescribed amounts don’t fit what is needed for me. So I have to have a pill cutter and cut it all the time. So, but like, you need to understand that I’m. [00:33:49] Wow. Yeah. So that, that didn’t help with your withdrawal or any of the other stuff. If you’d been messing around with how much you were taking, trying to mitigate the weight gain. [00:33:58] Jeff: that was more like a month or so [00:34:00] ago. And yeah, it was really bad. And I mean, and just to say, you know, one of the things my medication manager said to me about, you know, I was just asking, like, I have so many friends that are now starting to take medication. What, you know, what do you think it is? [00:34:13] Is it cultural that it’s more acceptable? Is it whatever? And she said like, you know, in some cases your body just may have been producing something that was helping you manage a certain aspect of your mental health that it stopped producing. And so to all the people out there like me, cuz I didn’t start taking any medications until just the beginning of the pandemic by coincidence. [00:34:32] Uh, thankfully, um, So I’m still learning, I’m learning all this stuff, right? Like I’m still kind of just a baby when it comes to dealing with medications and, and like, you both responded so quickly to the thing about Seroquel pulling back. Whereas for me, it was just kind of like, oh, let’s give it a try. [00:34:49] Right. So hopefully this is one way in which mental health corner is helpful to [00:34:53] Christina: No, I think, I think you’re right. Cause people don’t know. And I think, I don’t know. I’m I’m also thinking, I don’t know if it’s the. [00:35:00] Bodies aren’t producing it or that, that, you know, maybe like a, it’s called more cultural thing. I think it’s a personal awareness thing. I think like when you, it’s kind of like when you, you know, um, are looking for a red car or, or you get something new, like you see it everywhere. [00:35:13] Like there there’s a, there’s a term for that, um, for, for that phenomenon. But I have a feeling that’s some of it is that where you’re just much more aware of it because it’s new to you and it’s top of your mind. So you notice and pick up on every conversation you have with anyone who is new to taking medication. [00:35:29] Um, but you’re right. I think, but, but I think this can be really helpful. You’re right. For people, like, if you’re new to this stuff, don’t fuck with your meds, especially your psychiatric meds at all, without talking to a doctor, it will lead to bad things, [00:35:40] Brett: like they absolutely will, they will need adjustment. They always need adjustment, but you have to do it. You have to do it with guidance. Like there are people that you’re paying to help you make these decisions. And I don’t care how knowledgeable you think you are. Uh, you need, you need to follow [00:36:00] someone with at least what is an RN? [00:36:02] Is that, what, what do you need to be an RN? [00:36:06] Christina: Um, well, on our end, I think I would want like a physician’s assistant more than [00:36:11] Brett: Sure, [00:36:11] Christina: trust in RN, to be honest with you, but yeah. [00:36:14] Brett: sure. But you, you want someone with at least some schooling in, in, in the field, uh, which you can’t get just by reading the DSM. [00:36:24] Christina: No, you can’t. And that’s the thing too. Like you, you really need people who’ve like seen stuff and, and, and can see how things can act. And also to be clear, not every doctor medication manager is going to get everything right. That doesn’t mean that you don’t still seek out other people. [00:36:36] You know what I mean? Like, just because their dumb ass doesn’t mean that you give up on the whole thing and think, oh, I know best. And I can adjust myself. No, you really can’t like it’s, it’s a bad [00:36:45] Brett: really fucked up is interactions. And like for, for me, with bipolar and ADHD, like I take four different meds in addition to suffer like blood pressure and, and, [00:37:00] uh, cholesterol. I take four different psychiatric psychotropics. I take four different meds for my mental health and the balance between them. [00:37:11] I don’t care whether you have seven years of schooling or two, um, nobody knows. Every possible interaction or how a tweak to one med will affect the combination with another med cuz everyone’s unique and it, yeah, you, you, even if they make mistakes, though, you’re working, you’re working with someone who at least can account for the mistake and figure out how to correct it. [00:37:41] Uh, cuz blind guessing is not gonna do it for you. [00:37:44] Christina: No, it’s not. And, and, and people who think they can be like lay pharmaceutical, you know, uh, geniuses themselves, which I know wasn’t what you thought. Um, uh, Jeff, but like, but some people I know, really do think, oh, I, I, I can do this myself. No, you really can’t like, and it’s one of those things that think, [00:38:00] especially as intelligent people, we, again, it’s like Dunn, Kruger. [00:38:03] Like we assume that we can do more than we really can because in many cases we have. and, and no with, with medication stuff, like I’ve just learned. And, and I unfortunately learned it at a very young age, but, um, you know, some of the stuff that like you’re learning now, like minor adjustments can make a massive impact on your life. [00:38:20] Um, withdrawal can come on really quick. I mean, like, it’s possible that when you were adjusting your stuff, that like, if your body got used to a certain amount that even ripping down that smaller, uh, dose was kicking off certain withdrawal symptoms, right? Like it, it depends on what the medication is, but some of ’em are that sensitive, which means that if you’re doing those weird amounts, you have to figure out like how to, you know, balance the right things. [00:38:43] So, so that you get consistent, but it’s just, it’s, it’s, uh, it takes time and it’s complicated, but you need to work with your, with your doctor or medication manager or whatever on that stuff. And I’m really sorry you’ve been going through that because like, nothing to me is worse about like, [00:39:00] To me, it’s, it’s honestly, in many ways, worse than the, than the depression, like worse than the diseases themselves is sometimes the process of having to manage, like finding the right medication and going through that testing and going through the withdrawal period and going through all that stuff is, is sometimes as debilitating as like the, what you’re trying to treat. [00:39:19] Like obviously it’s, it’s not, you know, what you’re trying to treat I think is, is, is worse and, and could have like longer term consequences, but I don’t wanna ever, um, pretend like that process of finding a solution can’t be equally arduous and, and really difficult. [00:39:36] Brett: you pay, right? It’s it’s the mental health tax is, is all the medication futzing that you have to do, [00:39:43] Christina: Yep. Which a lot of people don’t wanna do. I think this is why a lot of people say medication doesn’t work for me. And my response to that is usually okay. How many have you tried and, and how much out, right, honestly. And how, how, [00:39:54] Brett: you put in the effort yet. [00:39:56] Christina: Right. And, and, and the thing is it’s shitty. [00:39:58] It sucks to have to go through the effort. [00:40:00] It sucks to have to pay that tax. Cuz we didn’t ask for any of this, we didn’t do anything wrong. It’s not a choice that we made, but it’s, it’s the same with anybody who has it. It’s somebody who’s diabetic. Somebody who has, you know, some, some other sort of, you know, like, uh, you know, condition like it’s, it’s shitty, like it’s unfair, but it is, but, but you’re right, it’s the tax you pay so that you don’t kill yourself or hurt yourself or hurt someone else, you know? [00:40:25] And, and that, that is ultimately worth it. But the process of getting there can be very, very difficult and really, you know, frustrating and, and you have to kind of unfortunately go through it and I’m glad you’re you have like a supportive family and, you know, situation where you can go through those things. [00:40:42] Like my, my great, my, the only thing I’m grateful for, you know, my experiences is that I was, you know, like between 14 and 17, when I went through most of my, like. Testing of, of, of stuff. So I mean, it fucked up my life then, but, you know, I [00:41:00] was, at the time it seemed like all, all consequential. Now I’m like, God, if I had to do this while I’m trying to work a, a high profile corporate job and doing other things, like, I don’t know what I would do. [00:41:11] Right. Like I, if it got bad enough, it would be one of those things where I would have to take like disability time and, and go on, on leave. You know what I mean? Like, and, and be because I, I don’t know how you, how you deal with it. Otherwise, if, if things get really bad, when you’re trying to figure out like what medications are, right. [00:41:26] And tweaking things and, and getting all that stuff together. So I’m glad that you have support and, and don’t feel like, hopefully don’t feel like the weight of everything is on your shoulders and that you can take the time to know it’s not gonna be perfect. It’s gonna be shitty and take time to figure out, but it’ll be okay. [00:41:43] Brett: But it’s worth it. Like [00:41:44] Christina: is worth it. That’s the thing. [00:41:45] Brett: we’re glossing over that part. Like when, when you do figure, when you make it through the [00:41:50] Christina: better. Yep. [00:41:52] Brett: Then your life can be multiple times better, uh, with medication like [00:42:00] it’s worth, it’s worth the [00:42:01] Christina: it is. No, it is. [00:42:03] Brett: med at the right dose. [00:42:05] Christina: No, I totally agree. No, and I, and I say this and I mean, this absolutely sincerely, and I’m not being like, I’m not trying to, you know, like, uh, trigger anybody or whatever, but like, I would not be alive without medication. There’s no doubt in my mind, I, I would not be alive. So for me, it is one of those things where I’m like all the hell, all the other stuff, as bad as it is, it is still better than the alternative, which is not being able to get out of bed and function as a human being. [00:42:30] And literally like praying for death. Like it is, you know, [00:42:35] Brett: Yeah. [00:42:37] Jeff: Hm. Glad you’re here too. Glad for medication [00:42:40] Brett: yeah. Do you want, do you wanna take the next mental health corner, Christina, [00:42:45] Christina: Sure. [00:42:45] Brett: on that note? [00:42:47] Christina: on that, on that happy note? No, I’m I’m okay. Um, I don’t really have much to, uh, much to add. I’ve just been doing some work stuff. Um, had some gastrointestinal stuff this morning, which is not fun. I hate dealing with that. Um, but, um, [00:43:00] yeah, no, I’m I’m I’m I’m okay. I’m okay. Um, so I have some friends who are in from out of town this week. [00:43:05] Um, uh, Amazon, AWS is having some sort of internal thing. And so, um, like it seems like every person I know now works at AWS and developer relations, so I’ve, I’ve been able to see people, which is cool. So I’m, I’m, [00:43:20] Brett: about that. What’s funny about that is Victor and I work at Oracle yet. We’ve been they’re, they’re launching, uh, an AWS, uh, heat wave on AWS where you can use an Oracle database with like, uh, it’s it’s a whole thing. Victor knows more about it than I do, but we’ve been dealing with AWS and AWS people not stop to. Anyway. Okay. Um, I’m kind of the same, uh, I, I was doing, I was doing well. I got up at 3:00 AM today because it was one of those nights where I fell asleep, [00:44:00] thinking about a problem and I solved it in the dream I had between 9:00 AM and 1:00 AM. And then I woke up at 1:00 AM and I laid in bed for two hours. [00:44:12] Thinking about the solution. That I had come up with. And then at three I gave up and decided just to code it out and, and it worked, it, it, it was great. It, it worked, um, if Twitter hadn’t changed their API, since the last time I Fuzed with it, um, it would be a perfect solution, but they did. Um, but anyway, like, I don’t think I’m manic right now. [00:44:38] I think I’m, I think I have insomnia and maybe a little bit of obsession. Uh, but I’m certain I don’t have like the elevated mood. I don’t have the, like, I’m pretty fucking laid back right now. Um, [00:44:54] Christina: I’m sorry about the API. I, I think that there’s somebody who maintains like a more up to date [00:45:00] kind of Python [00:45:01] Brett: they did, [00:45:01] Christina: to go for. Sorry, go on. [00:45:03] Brett: they, they moved it to V2. Um, and I, I haven’t played with it for at least a year now. Maybe more, um, So the apps that I had created for the V one API still function. And as long as I used the API keys from those original apps, my, my little integration, I made it so that doing can import your tweets as doing entries. [00:45:31] And as long as you have a V1 API app made it works great. But the Ruby gem that interfaces with the Twitter API is only for V1 and you can no longer create a V1 app. You have to create a project and an app now, and it has to use V2 endpoints. So I have to find a new gem if I’m gonna make this work. So the thing I figured out and, and I’ll make this brief because no one gives a fuck.[00:46:00] [00:46:00] I figured out how to make plugins for doing, uh, gem based. So you can develop a doing plugin as a gem and publish it, and then people can install the plugin just by typing gem, install, doing plugin, Twitter import, and, and it installs it. And it’ll pick up any gem on your system that starts with doing dash plugin dash will be loaded as a plugin and doing, um, so it makes plugins distribute distributable to this date. [00:46:38] Nobody has ever written a doing plugin aside from me. And I don’t see it being a big community effort, but at least now I, I know how to do it. I figured out figured out a way to make that work. [00:46:50] Jeff: That’s awesome. [00:46:52] Brett: Yeah. [00:46:52] Jeff: That’s awesome. [00:46:54] Brett: So can I ask you guys, I’m getting ready to travel for the first time in a [00:47:00] while? We’ll say a couple years. [00:47:02] Um, and I’m just going to Chicago, which is like a six hour drive for me, not a big deal, but I’ve forgotten how to pack. Do you guys have any tips for like managing a packing list? How do you put together your packing list? What do you, how do you double check? How do you know you got all your shit together before you leave? [00:47:25] Christina: Yeah, Jeff, do you wanna take this one? [00:47:27] Jeff: yeah. Okay. I’ll take, I got, I got three things I wanna say right away. Okay. So in terms of the packing itself, I always designate a table or a space for where I’m gonna throw everything as I’m getting ready to pack. And that might be just the morning that I’m packing or might be a few days before. So it’s like, if I know I want my sunglasses, the sunglasses go on that table. [00:47:52] We actually have like a folding table. I set up. It’s like how my dad used to plan pancake packing or, uh, camping trips. And, um, if there’s some, you know, [00:48:00] like there’s a hat I wanna bring, I put it there. If there’s like a medication on making sure I have, I put it there. Like I just make this ugly ass pile of stuff. [00:48:09] Ends up being for me a lot easier than a packing list. So like my first round is just to walk around the house and be like that, that, that, that, and throw it on the table. Then I make my packing list and the way it works after that is if it’s on the table, I can cross it off the packing list on or under the table. [00:48:28] So I might put like a suitcase under the table. Right. [00:48:31] Brett: Yeah. [00:48:32] Jeff: and that’s when I make my packing list and I always make my packing lists, um, on like index cards or on a half piece of paper or whatever. So I can just carry it around with me. Um, I’ve tried doing templates. I’ve used like task, paper format or whatever, but that didn’t work for me. [00:48:47] So that’s, that’s the packing recommendation. Okay. Just pile it all up and then figure it out. My second thing is fricking, uh, packing cubes for your suitcase, the cubes that you, you do, you use those[00:49:00] [00:49:00] Christina: I do. I do. Yeah. I, I, I was like for a long time, I was like against them. I was like, this is stupid. No, it is not. It is the way that I make stuff work, honestly. [00:49:10] Jeff: It’s incredible and, and like get enough so that one can be just for dirty clothes. Um, and so like, my family just went on a trip and we borrowed packing cubes from a bunch of friends. So each person had a different color packing cube, and we all packed into one suitcase. And if you wanted your stuff, you just grabbed the one that had your shirts in it, or the one that had your shorts in it or whatever. [00:49:31] I like you, Christine. I was just like, I don’t know about all this, but it has changed the way I travel. Um, especially with multiple people, but even if I was alone, I would use them. The third thing is just to bring an extension cord. That’s all always bring an extension [00:49:46] Brett: uh, what kind of exception? Cord two, prong three prong lightning, cable SBC. What kind of, [00:49:52] Jeff: It’s I, I do a three prong with a couple of three prong outlets in it and a couple of USB outlets in it. So, you know, the kind, you [00:50:00] can just grab off a target shelf or [00:50:01] Brett: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have some good. I have some good options for that. [00:50:05] Christina: Yeah, I, um, I made my mistake when I went to Europe that I didn’t even realize this because it’d been so long since I traveled that I couldn’t find my, um, like, uh, converter kits for, you know, my, my, my foreign stuff. So I had to buy something in the airport. Um, and then I did actually have one that I could use. [00:50:22] So I had two different plug things, but what I found, I have this, um, thing, the audience won’t be able to see it, but I’ll show you two it’s great is, um, from, uh, it’s, it’s called it’s from a hyper and it is a, um, USB plug. So it’s great. So on the back of it, it has like a two-prong plug, but you can obviously attach any sort of converter to it, which I did on the front of it. [00:50:48] It also is a two-prong plug. That’ll take up to 1500 Watts so you can plug [00:50:52] Brett: pass through. [00:50:53] Christina: Pass through other stuff into it, including another one of these. And then on the front, it has, it goes up to a hundred. Watts has three [00:51:00] USB, C hundred watt ports. You’ll do total a hundred Watts and then one 18 wat, um, us B a. So with this, I can basically have my iPad, my, um, phone, um, my laptop all fully charged and it has a pass through for anything else I need to plug in. [00:51:18] So with this and a power converter, like, like a, you know, just like a universal kind of, you know, plug thing, this is really good for me. This is better than the Belk one that I used to use for travel, because it’s got enough wattage for the, all the, um, you know, like I can do a 16 inch MacBook, fully charged off of this thing. [00:51:37] Brett: Can, can you drop a link to that in the [00:51:39] Christina: I sure can. Um, it’s really good. I’ve got two of these. It was a Kickstarter, but they sell them like officially on their store. Now it’s really, really good. Um, something like this. Um, and I would also say, uh, yeah, like having cables, I tend to keep my, my advice. Cause my advice is basically very similar to Jeff’s, but I would also say if you’re traveling more frequently, like I [00:52:00] try to keep my laptop bag. [00:52:02] um, there are some changes and I, I get fucked up here sometimes, cuz I knew that I had a cable in the bag and then I don’t, but I try to keep like my tech bag, uh, kind of filled at all times. So I’ll have stuff that I use just in the travel bag. Right. So I buy extras. So I have a lightning to USBC cable. I have, you know, like, um, a two and a half millimeter, you know, audio Jack cable, um, just is something to have, you know, again like a charger, like one of these, these, um, things from, um, hyper that I just have in the bag. [00:52:32] Some other stuff like, like my, my travel adapters and I try to keep those things always there so that when I’m doing my tech stuff, which is a lot of times for me, even a bigger deal than like. The clothes or, or other stuff? Well, no, cuz cuz clothes are a big deal, but you can always buy clothes. You can’t always buy the tech stuff. [00:52:51] So if I, if I have that organized, then I know that I just basically have to grab my bag. Like I know that I have that. And, and then for me, I also make sure, like I keep my [00:53:00] pills in. Um, it’s funny. I use a, a, um, an air France, um, amenity kit, um, bag that I got the, the honestly like the, from fine business class so much over the last, uh, you know, few years I have all these amenity kit bags, which are great for story, medication bottles and things like that. [00:53:17] And also like adopt kits. So like I have like these, these Tomy bags that are basically all my toiletries and that’s the same thing. I have toiletry kits that are not my day in and day out toiletries, but just my stuff for traveling. If you’re not traveling all the time, you don’t need to do that. But I would say similar to the packing cubes, having whether it is, you know, um, a. [00:53:38] A clear, you know, gallon bag that you have to use for TSA if you don’t have precheck. Um, and I forgot about this because when I, and that in Europe, they don’t have precheck. And so I forgot that I had to put everything in a plastic bag and held up, you know, security. I mean, it was fortunately, it was, it was, um, not very busy, but in, in Copenhagen. [00:53:55] And the people were very nice to me when I had to send my things through four times, like a freaking [00:54:00] novice and I felt so bad, they were so kind to me. And I was like, I am so sorry. I did not realize that I had all this stuff in there, including a phone that I totally forgot about. Um, like it was. A lot, but yeah, but having like bags set up for your toiletries, your meds and, and that stuff, um, works, but yeah, packing cubes are amazing. [00:54:22] And then, yeah, just kind of, uh, I always do like the broad city, like, like, you know, phone, wallet, keys, uh, and then I add on like my denim, like pills kind of mantra, like before I’m leaving a place also when you’re like leaving the hotel room, you know, checking for everything. Do you have my phone, have my wallet, my keys. [00:54:37] Do you have my medication? You know, cuz those are the important things. Anything else you can, you know, replace? [00:54:43] Brett: The one tip I would add, I have like a, I have a tech go bag. Do you guys know what a cocoon backpack is? um, like it has, it, it has a whole panel of just like elastic straps, and you can just kind of like [00:54:58] Jeff: Oh, like a [00:55:00] tactical [00:55:00] Brett: stuff and yeah. And, and I have that rigged up with every possible adapter from this to that, um, including like an ethernet cable for hotels where I can have a hardwired connection, uh, USB dongles, USBC us B a to, you know, everything. [00:55:21] And I just, I, I don’t use those cables at home. And that bag is basically always ready to go. So anytime I’m going on a trip, that’s going to involve tech at all. Like if I was going to, uh, Yellowstone, I probably wouldn’t bring the bag, but for anything that involves tech, uh, it’s, it’s a, it’s my go bag. [00:55:45] It’s it’s everything else that I’m finding [00:55:48] Jeff: Yeah, that’s amazing. Oh, wow. Are you driving? [00:55:52] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. [00:55:53] Jeff: purse. That’s the other thing I, I converted the house purse into a car purse and it was amazing cause I brought it in and it [00:56:00] would be by my bedside in each hotel. It was incredible. [00:56:03] Brett: Nice, man. We, we didn’t get through half our list today. We spent a long time on mental health and I’m okay with that. [00:56:12] Christina: No, I think it was good. It, it was also great to hear like a, a Jeff update and, and I think, I think this was like a really solid episode actually. [00:56:19] Jeff: Yeah. [00:56:20] Brett: Okay. So [00:56:21] Christina: then, and then I think, I think we’re gonna save the other stuff for when you come back from max stock. I think Jeff and I are gonna do like a, a solo show, probably this, uh, this next one. [00:56:30] Um, so that you, so that, so that Jeff who, uh, so the Brett rather a birthday boy, uh, can, uh, can enjoy his que and, uh, and enjoy all of his people at max stock. [00:56:41] Brett: oh yeah, it was my birthday on Wednesday, [00:56:43] Christina: Yes, it [00:56:44] Brett: Tuesday. What day is. [00:56:46] Christina: Today is [00:56:47] Brett: It was Tuesday was my birthday. [00:56:49] Christina: Happy happy belated. And, and now who knows when it was, when you’re listening to this podcast, but, uh, but, but happy birthday to, uh, to Mr. Terpstra [00:56:58] Brett: How old are you Christina? [00:57:00] 29. Is that what it [00:57:01] Christina: Uhhuh. Yep. [00:57:02] Brett: I, I just turned 29 as well. [00:57:04] Christina: That’s awesome. Welcome to the club. It’s a great age. [00:57:08] Brett: 20, 29 come 44. [00:57:11] Christina: Mm-hmm [00:57:12] Brett: I think I had, I keep having to do the math. I’ve lost track over the last few [00:57:16] Christina: it, look, you’re just turning 29 for the 15th time. It’s not a big deal. [00:57:20] Jeff: Yep. You’re doing great. [00:57:23] Christina: 16th time, whatever, like, yeah. Math is hard. [00:57:26] Brett: Arithmetic. [00:57:27] Jeff: lightning round. [00:57:28] Brett: Oh, Jesus. Uh, how did I forget about gratitude? Yes. Okay. Jeff, go. [00:57:34] Jeff: Uh, I am, uh, I am grafting, um, note plan, which is an app that I’ve, I’ve kind of made an attempt to integrate into my life three or four times since its inception. Um, and I’m doing it again right now. Note plan is, uh, you know, text document based, um, notes, organizer, but really that’s not why I use it cause I have other things I use for that. [00:57:59] I’ll [00:58:00] see Brett Terpstra. Um, but what it does is it puts sort of an interface in front of you that has a little bit of a, like you have like your picture, you open up the app and you have a little mini calendar in the right hand side, uh, UN below that in a column, you have your, your events over the next few days, right? [00:58:18] And then you have kind of a. Basically a text editor in the middle. And what it allows me to do that I like so much is I can look at that calendar and just very quickly click on an item and make notes for that item, for that meeting. That’s coming up for that, you know, um, that deadline I have or whatever. [00:58:37] And it’s just, it’s, it’s built, it’s one of these apps that, you know, if this sounds interesting to you just go look because it’s built in features over the years, really consistently and really wonderful features. And so I use it mostly just to keep sort of a, a one note for the week and a note for each day, um, that I can create in an advance. [00:58:56] And it just allows me to kind of, um, you [00:59:00] know, anchor certain key tasks or things I need to think about. And I can just let ’em go. Um, and for me, I really like that more than I like doing it inside of like an OmniFocus or something, but, you know, none of these solutions is perfect, but the it’s just wonderfully designed. [00:59:17] There’s a wonderful templating, um, sort of, uh, system inside of it that you can use. And, and the coolest thing for me is what makes me able to play with this and then put it down. Is that like all good apps of this type. It’s just looking for a folder that has your text documents in it. And that’s sort of my primary requirement for anything like this is like, can I just turn you on and show you my text documents and start using you with the stuff I’ve already got and not have to create a new system or anything like that. [00:59:46] And that’s what note plan allows me to do. It’s also on set app, just to be, uh, clear about that, what were you gonna [00:59:53] Brett: Interesting side note, cuz I knew you had to go Jeff, but uh, um, Eduardo from note plan [01:00:00] and I have, we both use Cindy for marketing emails. So if you ever get a marketing email from note plan, uh, I designed, he gave me the template and I designed the script that turns a markdown file into that email, uh, with his [01:00:16] Jeff: nice. [01:00:17] Brett: So E emails from marked, uh, share the same formatting as emails from note plan. Um, and he, he designed them. I scripted it and uh, it’s synergy developer synergy [01:00:32] Christina: Is it Eduardo? Uh, uh, Brett production. [01:00:35] Jeff: yes. And Eduardo’s just done really an incredible job at this app. Um, because I, I do once a year ago. Oh, I think this is what I need. Um, and I dive in and what’s amazing is that every time I dive in, what I did before is still basically there. And, um, and that’s the, how I use tools. I, I dip in and out of them all the time. [01:00:55] So anyway, it’s just a wonderfully designed app. Check it out and that’s it. Who’s [01:01:00] next. [01:01:01] Brett: All right, go ahead, Christina. [01:01:03] Christina: Okay. I don’t think I’ve mentioned this one before. Have I talked about J ski before? [01:01:06] Jeff: No. [01:01:07] Brett: You know what? I don’t remember. [01:01:09] Christina: I then, then, then I, then I, then I’m gonna talk about it. If I I’ve somehow talked about this before that I apologize JSK or GSKi however you wanna say it is a great, um, uh, app. So it’s, it’s two things. It’s both, uh, there’s a CLI that’s kind of like a front end and there’s also a, um, a Mac app that, uh, uh, CiDRA, uh, CI house. [01:01:30] Uh, and I know that I said his name wrong, um, created for, um, sorry. CiDRA [01:01:38] Brett: Sohu Sohu. [01:01:40] Christina: Sohu Sohu anyway, uh, he’s a prolific open source contributor who makes a lot of really great Mac apps and, and, um, also created like the awesome list, uh, stuff and whatnot. He makes a lot of really good utilities, um, and a lot of, uh, free open source stuff. [01:01:54] Um, some of his things are, are paid, but most of them are free, but this is basically a GIF, [01:02:00] uh, a GIF converter. So convert videos to, to G’s animations, but it, it focuses on quality. So you can have really high quality, like, so I’ve had to do this recently where I’ve had to make. Um, JS have like screen recordings and stuff so that we can share, uh, screen recording videos that I’ve made like on social media. [01:02:19] And most of the built most of the, the, the GIF, like conversion tools are terrible to be completely honest, they compress things way down. They don’t look good. And, and they’re just, they’re not worth a damn gys ski, which is free, is great. It’s a high quality different coder. So like the file sizes will be large. [01:02:36] You can actually then limit the number of frames and you can also. How big the, the image is if you need to, um, to, to get it down. Um, and, and I found that actually will, will get you a long way, but the quality is incredible. And, um, the Mac app and, and the CLI version basically has to be run, you know, from the command line. [01:02:56] And you can pass in, you know, like your frame for a second [01:03:00] and you’re width. And, and, you know, like, you know, the, the name that you want, you could do all of that. Exactly. Maximum of colors and, and you uses FFM peg, and it can, can do that stuff. But the, the Mac app is incredible because it’s super easy for you to just drag in a video file and then make adjustments. [01:03:16] It’ll give you kind of an idea of how big the resulting file will be. The resulting file is actually usually a little bit smaller, which is good to know, and the results are just top notch. Like I haven’t found anything even remotely close and I’ve used basically everything else you could use. So this is from, um, the image Optum guy. [01:03:34] Um, uh, and, uh, so it’s, uh, it’s really, really great. And, and if you have to deal with, with, with the gifs or gifts at all, and, um, converting them, like in the old days, we actually had a guy at Gizmoto, uh, Andrew Zuki. Who’s amazing who would make us the best, like gifs that I’ve ever seen, where he would, what he would do is he would take footage from the video. [01:03:57] He would import all the frames into Photoshop, and then he would [01:04:00] export them out. Like he, he, he would do the editing and like export them out and, and Andrew has a setup, so he can do it really quickly. But if you don’t have an Andrew on your team who can do that for you, then this is going to be the closest thing you can possibly get. [01:04:12] And it’s, and it’s free and it’s, and it’s also open source. So really good step. [01:04:16] Brett: So two things, first of all, it’s amazing that you’ve given up on the fight and you just say both G and GIF every time you’re like GIF or GIF, GIF or GIF. Um, second I use GSKi on the command line in combination with G sickle, um, and the two together. I I’ve come up with a pretty good GIF workflow even though for like websites. [01:04:40] Um, I’m using looping MP4 video now, but for social media, I’m excited. [01:04:47] Christina: to. Yeah. [01:04:48] Brett: I’m excited to try this gooey. This looks really cool. I [01:04:52] Christina: the gooey is great. Yeah. The gooey is great. And the reason I like it is because it’ll give you the preview of the size because certain social media sites like [01:05:00] LinkedIn will like be really particular. Like they need a G, but it’ll, it can be up to eight megabytes. [01:05:06] And then some like, Twitter will be fine with the file size. But if the resolution is too big, then they won’t, it won’t work. I didn’t know these things until the social media team was like, I need you to convert this to a smaller size or a different size. And I’m like, are you freaking kidding me? And thankfully I was using a tool that like, let me hone in on all those detail. [01:05:27] Jeff: Awesome. [01:05:28] Brett: All right. My pick will be quick. Um, I just discovered it, it was one of those that came up when I updated brew. I always look through, it tells you like what the new formula are formula and, and I go through them and I do a, a brew home, uh, brew home on all of them. And, um, I found this one called Astro Fox in the Cass brew CAS, and it is an open source free to use application that you can drop in an [01:06:00] audio file, for example, a podcast. [01:06:03] And it will do background images, titles, and waveform, animations, and output an MP4 for you to upload to YouTube. Um, I’m excited because we’ve never agreed to record our actual faces while we’re talking on this podcast. And I have always been hesitant to just publish a video that was just a static image. [01:06:29] Um, and, and then have our audio over it, but I do want to be on YouTube and this gives me an animated, visually interesting video from our little conversations here. Um, so I am very impressed with Astro Fox, uh, especially because it’s free and, uh, I’ll link that in the show notes. That’s it? [01:06:52] Jeff: Awesome. [01:06:53] Christina: I’m gonna definitely check that out. That’s great. That it’s, that it well done. Checking out the, the home brew formula, new new formula [01:07:00] things, cuz I’d never heard of this and this, this is like a perfect solution for what we’ve done and also might be useful in some of my other endeavors. [01:07:06] So this is cool. [01:07:07] Jeff: but did you pick it based on name alone [01:07:11] Brett: no, [01:07:12] Jeff: when you update, do you get like descriptions as well? [01:07:17] Brett: No, when I, when I update it, I just get, I get names. So, yeah. Um, there’s a lot of stuff like flock. I know what it does, you know, I don’t need to, but if it’s a weird name, that sounds somewhat interesting. Um, the other one I found was tuck TUC, which is a variation of the Unix cut CLI. Um, but it does basically stuff that you would have to do some extensive said and a magic to do. [01:07:47] Um, it basically uses cut syntax to say cut the second and fourth column, transposed them and split them with the centimeter. Um, it, it’s [01:08:00] very intuitive. Uh, I’ll link that one as well [01:08:02] Jeff: is the one it’s like a, it’s a node module, right? That’s am I looking at the right thing? [01:08:06] Brett: I think it’s a go, I don’t remember what it’s [01:08:09] Jeff: Anyway. Cool. That’s awesome. Um, I would like to thank a, a special guest today, which is my youngest son. Who’s been making pesto in the kitchen, outside my door. So if you’ve heard a lot of kitchen noises, I do not have the heart, uh, to tell him to stop cuz he is making pesto. [01:08:25] Um, so that’s it, but [01:08:28] Brett: I, I didn’t hear it. I [01:08:29] Christina: I didn’t either. I didn’t hear any of it. So, so [01:08:32] Jeff: I delighted. [01:08:33] Christina: so a great soundproofing and B um, you got to like hear and smell the pesto making and now you [01:08:38] Jeff: Yeah. It’s awesome. [01:08:39] Christina: So that’s [01:08:40] Jeff: awesome. Before I get some sleep, [01:08:43] Christina: Yes. [01:08:44] Jeff: get some [01:08:45] Brett: Speaking of get some sleep guys. [01:08:49] Christina: Get some sleep. Can I Onvoy.