Ruminations

#12 – Michael Frey is the co-founder of DIRT Wine and second-generation steward of Mariah Vineyards, the first vineyard in the world to be Ecological Outcome Verified and produce Land to Market Verified wines. Located on a remote ridge 2,400 feet above sea level in Mendocino County, California, Michael and his wife Nicole have transformed her family’s vineyard into a thriving model of regenerative viticulture—farming without irrigation or synthetic chemicals, integrating livestock via Holistic Management, and using real ecological monitoring to drive land management decisions.   In this episode, we explore: – how Michael and Nicole convinced the older generation to embrace a new regenerative path – the specific vineyard practices they’ve adopted—from diverse cover crops and contract grazing to sap analysis and pollinator trials – the disconnect between terroir and soil health in mainstream wine culture – and why transparency, not just flavor, might be the most radical thing you can put on a wine label.   We also dig into the challenges of regenerative farming in a dry-farmed vineyard at elevation, the aesthetic tensions between “clean” and “complex” landscapes, and how Michael is thinking about measuring nutrient density and flavor outcomes at a deeper level.   +++   ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: 👉 https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: 👉 https://savory.global/find-your-path   +++   00:00 Intro 01:56 Welcome Michael Frey 03:06 Regenerative viticulture 07:41 Michael & Nicole's journey to regenerative 22:29 1st steps of their transition 36:37 Trade-offs & considerations of regenerative viticulture 43:59 The importance of data 45:30 Terroir 47:16 Conventional vs. Regenerative viticulture 52:15 Transparency (or lack thereof) for additives 55:10 Introducing DIRT Wine 59:54 The Future of Regenerative Viticulture 01:06:59 Advice for consumers & wine growers 01:12:24 Favorite failures 01:17:25 Looking ahead 01:26:50 Closing thoughts   +++   MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE: – https://www.dirt-wine.com/ – https://mariahvineyards.com/ – https://savory.global/eov/ – https://savory.global/land-to-market/ – https://sonomawinegrape.org/paul-dolans-deep-sonoma-county-roots/ – https://www.stephanvanvliet.com/ – https://www.bionutrient.org/   +++   This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through Holistic Management. For less than $1 per day, you can help regenerate 400+ acres every year: 👉 https://savory.global/member   Want to sponsor an episode? 👉 https://savory.global/podcast   +++   FIND US ON SOCIAL: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/   +++   HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION? We’d love to hear your thoughts: 👉 https://www.tfaforms.com/5169997   +++   Music written & performed by https://www.youtube.com/@travismcnamara9313

#11 – Hunter Lovins is a regenerative-economy trailblazer, co-author of the bestselling books Natural Capitalism and A Finer Future, and a force behind initiatives that help farmers, CEOs, and even entire nations build “economies in service of life.” In this episode, we revisit the big ideas of Natural Capitalism 25 years on, unpack Hunter’s blueprint for a just, regenerative economy, and hear why she’s co-launching COPx—a people-powered alternative to the UN climate talks. Hunter also shares stories from the field: scaling community-managed natural farming with 4 million smallholders in India, quadrupling yields in Zambia, and advising Gulf states on turning desert sands green. Along the way we talk about regenerative economics, the double-edged sword that is capitalism, “global weirding,” and how every plate she spins—finance, policy, ranching, activism—aims at one goal: tackling climate, water, and food crises all at once.   +++   ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: 👉 https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: 👉 https://savory.global/find-your-path   +++   00:00 Intro 04:00 Hunter’s current projects 10:03 Where does resistance to change originate? 16:36 Neoliberal economics 23:46 Origins of neoliberal capitalism 28:17 Mercantilism 34:08 Regenerating Membership 35:10 Capitalism vs. the Degrowth movement 38:40 'Natural Capitalism' 25 years later 40:53 Introducing 'A Finer Future' 44:25 COPx 58:47 What’s on the horizon? 01:02:35 Final thoughts   +++   MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE: – https://www.natcapsolutions.org/natcapinc/ – https://apcnf.in/global/ – https://reclaimdemocracy.org/powell_memo_lewis/ – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_F._Powell_Jr. – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gustave_Speth – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker – https://natcapsolutions.org/ – https://www.copx.earth/ – https://www.clubofrome.org/ – https://capitalinstitute.org/team/john-fullerton/ – https://capitalinstitute.org/regenerative-capitalism/ – https://www.kateraworth.com/ – https://doughnuteconomics.org/ – https://drawdown.org/ +++   This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through Holistic Management. For less than $1 per day, you can help regenerate 400+ acres every year: 👉 https://savory.global/member   Want to sponsor an episode? 👉 https://savory.global/podcast   +++   FIND US ON SOCIAL: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/   +++   HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION? We’d love to hear your thoughts: 👉 https://www.tfaforms.com/5169997   +++   Music written & performed by https://www.youtube.com/@travismcnamara9313

In this episode, we sit down with Jen Hunter and Andy Wear of Fernhill Farm and Fernhill Fiber, recognized as the 2022 Sheep Farmers of the Year by Farmers Weekly. With decades of shepherding under their belts, they share insights on how they've transformed their hilltop farm into a thriving cultural and ecological hub, cross-breeding 6 types of sheep to produce premium wool, on-farm events with 20,000 attendees, how EOV data informs their management, and more.    +++   ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: 👉 https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: 👉 https://savory.global/find-your-path   +++   00:00 Intro 01:25 Fernhill’s Fiber Experience event 07:19 Setting the stage 11:10 Jen’s background 15:57 The history of Fernhill 22:38 From shepherding to Holistic Planned Grazing 28:24 Trading weddings for wool 37:17 Join the movement 38:18 Financial planning 47:23 Field observations 56:27 Balancing ecological & nutritional needs 01:00:38 Ecological monitoring 01:09:16 Partnering with HD Wool 01:11:17 Cross-breeding 6 types of sheep 01:21:47 Future aspirations 01:28:27 Final Thoughts   +++   MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE: – https://www.fernhill-farm.co.uk/ – https://fernhillfibre.co.uk/ – https://fernhillfibre.co.uk/events/fernhill-fibre-experience-21st-march-2026 – https://www.fieldmargin.com/ – https://www.3lm.network/ – https://fernhillfibre.co.uk/eov-regenerative-verification – https://www.hdwool.com/   +++   This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through Holistic Management. For less than $1 per day, you can help regenerate 400+ acres every year: 👉 https://savory.global/member   Want to sponsor an episode? 👉 https://savory.global/podcast   +++   FIND US ON SOCIAL: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/   +++   HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION? We’d love to hear your thoughts: 👉 https://www.tfaforms.com/5169997   +++   Music written & performed by https://www.youtube.com/@travismcnamara9313

In this episode of Ruminations, we explore what it means to be in relationship with place—even while living a nomadic lifestyle. Our guest is Leon Bucher: Holistic Management educator, EOV Verifier, and one of five members of Savory’s Global Quality Assurance team for Ecological Outcome Verification (EOV). Together, we unpack how EOV works—not just the mechanics, but the deeper meaning. Leon shares insights from years of walking land with producers across Europe, explaining how ecological indicators serve as feedback loops for better management. From baseline monitoring to five-year trend analysis, we look at what getting EOV actually involves for a farmer or rancher—and why, in Leon’s words, regeneration is ultimately about relationship.   +++   ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: 👉 https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: 👉 https://savory.global/find-your-path   +++   00:00 Intro 02:13 A German nomad lands in northern Sweden 09:54 Career shifts 26:28 Learn everything or just get started? 31:31 Why do ecological monitoring? 34:01 TAKE MORE PHOTOS! 39:37 Monitoring for marketplace differentiation 41:18 Regenerating Members 45:20 What is EOV? 50:41 Calibrating data by eco-region 57:07 How indicators correlate to ecosystem processes 01:00:08 Leon’s favorite ecological indicators 01:01:34 Engaging your senses in monitoring 01:08:35 Setting up EOV on your farm or ranch 01:17:34 Trendlines & comparing to reference sites 01:20:27 Walking through an EOV report 01:23:37 Quality Assurance review 01:34:29 “Regeneration is relationships” 01:39:51 Final Thoughts   +++   MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE: – https://landregeneration.eu/en/ – https://savory.global/increasing-caring-capacity/ – https://youtu.be/-9b6nwJayqY?si=vL2drwUvy2UKPftM – https://www.anadolumera.com/en – https://natcapsolutions.org/product/purchaseafinerfuture/ – https://savory.global/eov/ – http://leonbucher.com/ – https://www.instagram.com/leon_regenerative_journeys/ +++   This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through Holistic Management. For less than $1 per day, you can help regenerate 400+ acres every year: 👉 https://savory.global/member   Want to sponsor an episode? 👉 https://savory.global/podcast   +++   FIND US ON SOCIAL: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/   +++   HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION? We’d love to hear your thoughts: 👉 https://www.tfaforms.com/5169997   +++   Music written & performed by https://www.youtube.com/@travismcnamara9313

In this episode of Ruminations, we dig into the legislative soil beneath America’s regenerative agriculture movement with Aria McLauchlan, co-founder and executive director of LandCore. Aria brings a rare insider’s view of how soil health is making its way into federal and state policy—often against the odds.   We explore how LandCore is reshaping the policy landscape by working alongside USDA, legislators, producers, and investors to mainstream soil health as a critical lever for economic resilience, food security, and climate action. You’ll hear about their groundbreaking risk modeling tools, the Soil Health Bill Tracker, and what it actually takes to get meaningful policy passed in a system designed for the status quo.   +++   ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: 👉 https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: 👉 https://savory.global/find-your-path   +++   00:00 Intro 03:20 Welcome Aria 04:20 Aria's Journey into Policy 09:55 Founding LandCore: Mission and Goals 12:15 Economic Incentives for Farmers 16:48 Navigating Capitol Hill: Engaging Policymakers 24:51 Risk Mitigation and Soil Health 32:31 LandCore's Risk Modeling Tool 37:55 Challenges in Modeling Grazing Practices 42:05 Practice-Based vs. Outcomes-Based Approaches 44:27 LandCore's Policy Priorities 45:56 The Farm Bill 51:28 Engaging with Legislators 59:49 Broader Implications and Agencies Involved 01:04:59 Global Perspectives 01:08:33 Economic Case for Soil Health 01:22:18 Future of Soil Health Policy 01:28:20 Final Thoughts   +++   MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE: – https://landcore.org/ – https://landcore.org/bill-tracker – https://landcore.org/news-post/2024/05/02/land-core-risk-model-interactive-beta-tool – https://landcore.org/news-post/public-comments-hhs-dietary-guidelines – (BONUS) https://landcore.org/news-post/rooted-in-health-the-soil-and-human-health-connection   +++   This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through Holistic Management. For less than $1 per day, you can help regenerate 400+ acres every year: 👉 https://savory.global/member   Want to sponsor an episode? 👉 https://savory.global/podcast   +++   FIND US ON SOCIAL: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/   +++   HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION? We’d love to hear your thoughts: 👉 https://www.tfaforms.com/5169997   +++   Music written & performed by Travis McNamara.

In this episode we're joined by Pablo Borelli, co-founder of Ovis 21, the Savory Hub in Argentina. With a background in agronomy and extensive experience in Holistic Management, Pablo shares insights on how Ovis 21 has impacted over 26 million hectares and trained over 5,000 people in Holistic Management over the last decade. The conversation explores Pablo’s journey, the underlying principles and key insights of Holistic Management, and the transformative effects it has had on Patagonian grasslands and livestock management. Plus, dive into case studies and real-world applications that highlight the importance of planned grazing, recovery periods, and the ecological benefits of regenerative agriculture.   +++ ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: 👉 https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: 👉 https://savory.global/find-your-path   +++ 00:00 Intro 04:35 Challenges and Innovations in Holistic Management 10:05 Early Adoption and Training in Patagonia 26:39 Holistic Management Principles and Practices 39:57 Understanding Holistic Grazing Plans 40:20 Redefining Overgrazing 43:25 The Concept of Overresting 48:08 Four Key Insights of Holistic Management 50:29 Importance of Holistic Context 58:16 Holistic Planned Grazing Explained 01:04:39 Recovery Periods in Grazing Plans 01:11:53 Advice for New Holistic Managers 01:13:09 The Future of Regenerative Grazing 01:20:22 Final Thoughts   +++ This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through Holistic Management. For less than $1 per day, you can help regenerate 400+ acres every year: 👉 https://savory.global/member   Want to sponsor an episode? 👉 https://savory.global/podcast   +++ FIND US ON SOCIAL: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/   +++ HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION? We’d love to hear your thoughts: 👉 https://www.tfaforms.com/5169997   +++ Music written & performed by https://www.youtube.com/@travismcnamara9313

Diana Rodgers, a registered dietitian and co-author of "Sacred Cow," dives into the nuanced debate over animal-sourced foods. She shares her journey in nutrition and the biases she faced while publishing research on meat's nutritional merits. The talk emphasizes the essential nutrients like protein, iron, and B12 found in meat, while debunking common misconceptions about red meat and health risks. Diana also discusses the historical roots of anti-meat sentiments and her personal transition towards art and community engagement.

Beth Robinette is a fourth-generation cattle rancher, educator, and co-founder of New Cowgirl Camp (https://www.newcowgirlcamp.com/) who joins the podcast to talk about what it really means to build a more inclusive, resilient future for agriculture.   From her roots on the Lazy R Ranch in Washington’s channeled scablands to her work leading education at UVE (a Savory Hub covering the Intermountain West region of the US), Beth shares how she’s blending business, ecology, and equity to reimagine land stewardship.   The discussion covers being a second-generation Holistic Management practitioner, why creating a safe environment is essential to learning, and how cultural restoration—like digging camas with Salish youth—can deepen our relationship with the land. This is a powerful conversation about leadership, belonging, and making space for new voices in ranching.   +++ ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: 👉 https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: 👉 https://savory.global/find-your-path +++ TIME STAMPS: [03:25] Beth's Family Ranching History [06:43] Transition to Holistic Management [10:59] Beth's Personal Journey and Education [15:32] Challenges and Insights in Ranching [21:32] New Cowgirl Camp: Empowering Women in Ranching [27:15] Community Building and Future of Agriculture [50:09] Savory Institute and Global Impact [55:12] Hunters of Color and Reciprocal Goodness [58:07] Diverse Backgrounds and Good Food [58:38] Relearning Land History [01:01:05[ Indigenous Land Management [01:04:41[ Collaboration with Salish School [01:16:33] Challenges and Adaptations in Land Management [01:35:46] Future Vision and Community Building   +++ This episode is brought to you by Savory Institute’s Regenerating Members, a global community committed to restoring grasslands. Learn more and join for just $10/month at 👉 https://savory.global/member Want to sponsor an episode?  +++ MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: Lazy R Ranch New Cowgirl Camp Roots of Resilience Salish School of Spokane UVE - Intermountain West Savory Hub Savory’s Earth Day Giveaway +++ FIND US ON SOCIAL: YouTube: @SavoryInstitute Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/ NEVER MISS AN EPISODE: Spotify Apple Podcasts +++ HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION? We’d love to hear your thoughts. Suggest future guests here: https://www.tfaforms.com/5169997

In this episode of Ruminations, we’re joined by Paul and Phyllis Van Amburgh of Dharma Lea—a 100% grass-fed, holistically managed dairy in upstate New York. They share their unlikely journey from first-time conventional dairy farmers to nationally recognized leaders in regenerative agriculture. What changed everything? Holistic Management. We get into the weeds of what that transition really looked like—from the tough decisions and mindset shifts to the practical changes on the ground. By moving from rotational to holistic planned grazing, they extended their grazing season by 120%, slashed feed costs, and brought herd health to a whole new level—cutting mastitis rates from 73% to just 3%. But their impact didn’t stop at the farm gate. Paul and Phyllis helped build the supply chain for Maple Hill Creamery, guiding over 125 farms in making the leap to grass-fed. Today, they mentor fellow farmers who want to build operations that are ecologically sound, financially viable, and deeply rooted in values. This is a candid, practical, and inspiring conversation about what it really takes to go regenerative—and why it’s worth it. +++ ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: 👉 https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: 👉 https://savory.global/find-your-path +++ TIME STAMPS: [5:33] Life on the farm   [13:00] Why they built a family-run business   [26:41] Getting into farming   [37:24] Unlearning old business habits   [43:40] Grass-fed vs grain-fed: financial insights   [57:55] Transition to 100% grass-fed dairy   [58:00] Managing yield drag & system change   [1:04:33] Improving soil health   [1:07:29] Understanding forage & nutrition   [1:16:38] From utilization to recovery mindset   [1:32:21] Planned vs rotational grazing   [1:39:09] Advice for transitioning farmers   [1:47:07] What changed slowly over time   [1:52:11] Visiting Dimbangombe in Zimbabwe   [1:59:32] Future of regenerative agriculture [2:10:21] Closing +++ This episode is brought to you by Savory Institute’s Regenerating Members, a global community committed to restoring grasslands. Learn more and join for just $10/month at 👉 https://savory.global/member Want to sponsor an episode? [sponsorship link] +++ MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: Dharma Lea Dairy Maple Hill Creamery Less Stress, More Grass Case Study Africa Centre for Holistic Management Savory’s Earth Day Giveaway +++ FIND US ON SOCIAL: YouTube: @SavoryInstitute Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/ NEVER MISS AN EPISODE: Spotify Apple Podcasts +++ HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION? We’d love to hear your thoughts. Suggest future guests here: https://www.tfaforms.com/5169997

Regenerative Business and Living Systems Design with Tre Cates In this episode of Ruminations, host Bobby Gill delves into regenerative business practices with Tre Cates, founder of nRhythm. They explore the concepts of living systems design, organizational health, and the distinction between managing complexity versus control. Cates shares his experiences from working with the Savory Institute, the development of the Savory Hub model, and the transformation of businesses by applying regenerative principles. This episode offers deep insights into creating resilient and thriving organizations by focusing on the interconnectedness of people, processes, and the environment. Tre Cates is the founder of nRhythm, a consulting firm helping organizations around the world design systems that align with the principles of life itself—complexity, emergence, resilience, and interconnectedness. In this episode of @SavoryInstitute’s Ruminations podcast, Tre joins us to explore: - What It Means to Design a Regenerative Organization - The Difference Between Complicated and Complex Systems (and -- Why It Matters) - How Businesses Can Create the Conditions for Life, Not Just Profit +++ ALL EPISODES:  https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS:  https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE:  https://savory.global/find-your-path +++ TIME STAMPS: 00:35 Meet Tre Cates: Founder of nRhythm 01:18 Savory Institute and Holistic Management 01:39 Exploring Complexity and Leadership 02:12 Sponsor Message: Savory Journey Giveaway 04:15 Conversation with Tre Cates Begins 05:42 Understanding the Cartesian Split 08:38 Complexity in Agriculture and Beyond 16:54 Managing Complexity vs. Control 28:27 Patterns and Principles of Living Systems 32:09 nRhythm's Approach to Regenerative Organizations 43:27 Foundational Beliefs and Operational Identity 44:52 Monitoring Health and Emergence 51:20 Understanding Governance Structures 53:00 Creating Conditions for Success 55:42 Monitoring for Emergence 56:55 Embracing Emergence in Organizations 01:11:34 Case Study: Transforming a Boutique Firm 01:18:44 The Savory Hub Network and Decentralization 01:26:13 Influential Thinkers and Schools of Thought 01:33:19 Future Patterns and Societal Shifts 01:44:00 Final Thoughts and Call to Action +++ This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through holistic management. Join today for just $10/month and help regenerate 400+ acres every year:  https://savory.global/member Want to sponsor an episode?  https://savory.global/podcast +++ MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: nRhythm • Savory Institute • Holistic Management +++ FIND US ON SOCIAL: YouTube: @SavoryInstitute Instagram: @savoryinstitute LinkedIn: Savory Institute +++ HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION? We’d love to hear your thoughts:  https://www.tfaforms.com/5169997