Immaterial: 5,000 Years of Art, One Material at a Time

How do art conservators save video art from obsolescence? If a painting on canvas rips or a marble sculpture shatters to pieces, art conservators are trained to respond accordingly and repair it. Artworks that unfold over time – like videos and software based works – are a different thing altogether. These artworks are made using cutting-edge technologies that are constantly being updated. If the “canvas” or medium an artwork is made on keeps shifting, how do art conservators protect these works from obsolescence? Guests: Jonathan Farbowitz, time-based media conservator Jennifer and Kevin McCoy, artists Ho Tzu Nyen, artist Nora Kennedy, Sherman Fairchild Conservator In Charge, Photograph Conservation Featured artworks: Thomas Tompion (clockmaker) Jasper Braem (case), Longcase clock with calendrical, lunar, and tidal indications, also known as the Graves Tompion, ca. 1677–80: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/209296 Jennifer and Kevin McCoy, Every Shot, Every Episode, 2001: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/284985 Ho Tzu Nyen, The Critical Dictionary of Southeast Asia, 2017–present: https://cdosea.org Cover art: Joseph Knibb (clockmaker), Longcase clock with calendar, ca. 1680–85: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/205601 For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialtime #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy. Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Laura Barth, Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith. Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Mueller.Original music by Austin Fisher.Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman. Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund. Special thanks to Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong, Avery Trufelman, associate conservator Jonathan Farbowitz, conservator in charge Nora Kennedy, collections technician Sam Winks, Kevin and Jennifer McCoy, Ho Tzu Nyen, associate curator Lesley Ma, and associate curator Lauren Rosati.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Join Ellen Ruppel Shell, an author intrigued by a unique mahogany tree after seeing a guitar, and luthiers Ken Parker and Reuben Forslund, who crafted guitars from its remarkable wood. Guitarist Steve Cardenas highlights the tree's enchanting sound. Historian Jennifer Anderson shares insights on the mahogany trade's historical context. Discover the gripping tale of a massive mahogany tree in Belize, its legacy in music, and the environmental consequences of its trade, painting a vivid picture of artistry intertwined with ethical dilemmas.

An archaeologist and an artist walk into a dump…  For most of us, we throw our garbage to the curb, and it disappears from our lives. But to some, that’s just the beginning of trash’s story. In this episode, we follow two people who seek the truth in trash—an archaeologist who excavates ancient rubbish in Turkmenistan and an artist who spotlights the people responsible for making trash vanish. Guests: Martina Rugiadi, associate curator, Department of Islamic Art, The Met sTo Len, artist Andy Blancero, development officer, Freshkills Park Alliance Featured artworks: Chakaia Booker, Raw Attraction, 2001: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/492175 Bowl with Green, Yellow, and Brown Splashed Decoration. Excavated in Iran, Nishapur, 10th century: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/449348 Stone Oil Lamp. Excavated in Iran, Nishapur, 9th century: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/449328 Painted Dado Panels. Excavated in Iran, Nishapur, 9th century: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/449862 James Hampton, The Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations’ Millennium General Assembly, ca. 1950-1964: https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/throne-third-heaven-nations-millennium-general-assembly-9897 Fragment of a Wall Painting with a Fox or a Dog (and Painted Layers). Excavated in Iran, Nishapur, 12th century: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/708593 For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialtrash #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy. Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Laura Barth, Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith. Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Mueller.Original music by Austin Fisher.Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman. Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund. Special thanks to Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong, Avery Trufelman, Brinda Kumar, Navina Haider.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What can the tiny chia seed reveal about the history of oil painting? For centuries, one of the most prized mediums of art at museums like the Met has been oil painting, a European tradition embodied by the so-called "old masters." This is the story of how the oil of the chia seed — yes, the same one that’s a staple add-on for smoothies and acai bowls — and its origins in Mexico could help us look at oil painting and our world with fresh eyes.  Guests: Elsa Arroyo, Mexican paintings conservator Ronda Kasl, Curator of Latin American Art, The American Wing, The Met Monica Katz, Conservator, Hispanic Society José Luis Lazarte Luna, Assistant Conservator, Paintings Conservation, The Met Roger Danilo Carmona, General Manager, Kremer Pigments Inc. Julie Arslanoglu, Research Scientist, The Met Mario Gaspar, Lacquerware artist Featured artworks: José Manuel de la Cerda, Turnus Provoked into War by Aeneas, ca. 1764: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/841656 Juan Correa, The Virgin of Valvanera, ca. 1710: https://www.denverartmuseum.org/en/object/2008.832 Juan Correa, Allegory of the Holy Sacrament, ca. 1690: https://www.denverartmuseum.org/en/object/2015.570 Juran Correa, Angel Carrying a Cypress (Ángel portando un ciprés), ca. 1680-1690: https://collections.lacma.org/node/1034999 For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialchia #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy. Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum,  Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Laura Barth, Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith. Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Muller.Original music by Austin Fisher.Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman.Special thanks to Adwoa Gyimyah-Brempong. Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund. And special thanks to Aleks Popowich, Alfonso Miranda Marquez, Beatriz Ortega, Marco Leona, and Avery Trufelman. The research presented within has been made possible in part by the National Endowment for the Humanities: Democracy demands wisdom.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What happens when our most intimate possessions end up in art museums? Blankets comfort and keep us warm. They accompany us through our lives. They are keepers of some of our most intimate stories. We look at a group of artists who harness this power of blankets and quilts as totems for memory, community and cultural survival. Guests: Loretta Pettway Bennett, Gee's Bend quilt maker Marie Watt, artist Ally Barlow, associate conservator, Department of Textile Conservation, The Met Louisiana P. Bendolph, Gee's Bend quilt maker Louise Williams, board president, Freedom Quilting Bee Legacy Featured artworks: Qunnie Pettway, Housetop, ca. 1975: https://www.soulsgrowndeep.org/artist/qunnie-pettway/work/housetop Marie Watt, Untitled (Dream Catcher), 2014: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/849042 Louisiana P. Bendolph, Housetop quilt, 2003: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/654095 Annie E. Pettway, “Flying Geese” Variation, ca. 1935: https://www.soulsgrowndeep.org/artist/annie-e-pettway/work/flying-geese-variation Willie "Ma Willie" Abrams, Roman Stripes quilt, ca. 1975: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/654081 For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialblankets #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy. Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Laura Barth, Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith. Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Muller.Original music by Austin Fisher.Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman.Sensitivity listening by Adwoa Gyimyah-Brempong. Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund. Special thanks to Eva Labson, Scott Browning, Curator Amelia Peck, and Avery Trufelman.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What is hidden in the 'empty' spaces of an art museum? The Met is more than a museum of art. It is a city unto itself: population 2,000, with a transient population of 5 million. The Met is 21 buildings nested together like puzzle pieces, and it takes 400,000 light bulbs to illuminate all the spaces. But who actually changes those light bulbs? In this episode, peek behind the curtain and meet the people who maintain the hidden ecosystem of The Met. Guests: Marco Leona, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, The Met Eric Breitung, research scientist, The Met Anna Serotta, conservator, Objects Conservation, The Met Louisa Lam, security officer, The Met Frida Escobedo, architect Featured artworks: Coffin of Irtirutja, 332–250 BCE. Egypt: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/551163 Vincent Van Gogh, Cypresses, 1889: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/437980 For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialspacepart2 #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy. Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith. Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Muller.Original music by Austin Fisher.Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman. Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund. Special thanks to Maureen Catbagan, Iva Keselicova, Michael Millican, Elizabeth Reyes Moreno, Sarah Freshnock, Avery Trufelman, and Jennie C. Jones.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this engaging conversation, Rachel Whiteread, a contemporary British sculptor noted for her explorations of space and absence, shares insights with Brinda Kumar, Associate Curator at The Met, and Shania Hall, a talented Blackfoot Nation photographer. They explore how art can convey vast emotional experiences and the concept of absence. Shania discusses her journey of cultural identity through photography, while Rachel’s sculptural works reflect on personal narratives and emotional spaces, creating a powerful dialogue on heritage and loss.

Carolyn Riccardelli and Jack Soultanian, conservators at The Met, delve into the tales told by broken stone. They discuss the emotional fallout of restoring Tullio Lombardo's iconic marble sculpture, Adam, after its catastrophic fall. The duo highlights how cracks in statues convey complex human stories and the historical significance of stone in art. Listen as they share insights on the delicate balance of conservation techniques and the deep emotional bond artists have with their creations.

What is hiding in the material choices of artists and makers? Immaterial, The Metropolitan Museum of Art’s marquee podcast, is back with eight more episodes that reveal the emotional origins and transformative power of art through the lens of materials. This season we learn from Mexican artisans keeping centuries-old traditions alive; we go to ancient Mesopotamia to understand time travel; and we find a mythical tree in Belize that’s been making music for decades. From traditional materials like stone and wood, to more abstract ones like space and time, the podcast explores how these materials shape the inner lives of artworks and the human experiences they reflect. Season 2 of Immaterial drops June 4.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Grab a cup of tea and join us for a bonus episode on tarot. We learn about the cards from their patrician origins to the present day, when tarot is being used to subvert limiting tropes of gender and sexuality. A tarot deck begs some questions: what makes something art? And who decides? Some of the answers may surprise you. We meet the artists behind a queer, Southern, collective tarot deck, and hear from an educator at The Met how tarot can be a source of both beauty and resistance. Plus: Camille Dungy, host and tarot skeptic, gets a slightly apocalyptic reading from a fellow poet. Producers Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan take us behind the scenes: probing something that's not quite a material, but whose story is too dynamic not to share. Guests: Suhaly Bautista-Carolina, creator of Moon Mother Apothecary and senior managing educator of audience development, Education, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Marco Leona, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Allison Rudnick, associate curator, Drawings and Prints, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Alexander Chee, poet, author, and professor of English and creative writing, Dartmouth College Camille Dungy, poet and host of Immaterial Slow Holler Tarot Artists: JB Brager Corina Dross Miranda Javid Nic Jenkins Objects mentioned in this episode: Niki de Saint-Phalle (American, 1930–2004). Niki de Saint Phalle tarot cards, 2002. 22 cards: illustrations ; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm) ; Width: 3 1/8 in. (8 cm) + 1 booklet (48 unnumbered pages ; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm)). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (N6853.S255 S25 2002) For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan. Special thanks to Holly Phillips, Jessica Ranne-Cardona, Maria Schurr, E. Henderson, and Rachel Pollack.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.