Immaterial: 5,000 Years of Art, One Material at a Time

Yaëlle Biro, a former curator at The Met, discusses the intricate history of metals in art. Daniel Carrillo explores the toxic charm of mercury in photography, while Marco Leona provides insights into its scientific impacts. Irene Soto Marín reveals the economic forces behind Roman silver coinage, and Yaw Nyarko delves into the cultural significance of gold in the Ashanti Empire. Together, they illustrate how metals have shaped identity, trust, and narratives throughout history, blending art, science, and culture in a mesmerizing exploration.

Join Edward Hunter, an armorer from The Met, Marco Leona, a scientific researcher, and other experts as they dive into the magical world of metals. They discuss the enchanting craft of 16th-century armor, revealing its artistry and social significance. Explore the ancient Chinese bianzhong bells and their powerful history. Delve into the dual nature of lead, balancing its uses with its risks. Discover the cultural depths of the Sigale Gale puppet and its connection to grief, and see how copper embodies stories of memory and art in Islamic traditions.

Take a spin through The Met and you’ll find thousands of items made from linen. From a 3,500 year old sheet from Ancient Egypt, to a Giorgio Armani suit from the 1980s, linen has been a symbol of wealth and authority. But it's also been a tool for the oppression and exploitation of enslaved people in the American South, and an engine of work and comfort in the Victorian era. Suit up as we undress the legacy of linen through its complex, layered symbolism. Guests: Catharine H. Roehrig, curator emerita, Egyptian Art, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Rachel Tashijian, fashion critic and fashion news director, Harper’s Bazaar Jonathan Square, The Gerald and Mary Ellen Ritter Memorial Fund Fellow, The Costume Institute, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Cora Harrington, lingerie expert, founder of The Lingerie Addict, and author of In Intimate Detail: How to Choose, Wear, and Love Lingerie Objects featured in this episode: Length of Very Sheer Linen Cloth, ca. 1492–1473 B.C. Egypt, New Kingdom. Linen, Greatest length 515 cm (202 3/4 in); Greatest width 161 cm (63 3/8 in); Weight 140 grams (5 oz.); 46 warp x 30 weft per sq. cm. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Rogers Fund, 1936 (36.3.111) Armani linen suits (various) Nineteenth-century lingerie (various) For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Eleanor Kagan. Special thanks to Emilia Cortes, Jessica Regan, Mellissa Huber, Janina Poskrobko, Cristina Carr, Kristine Kamiya, Minsun Hwang, and Dr. Vanessa Holden.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Deep in the riverbeds of Aotearoa New Zealand’s South Island, you’ll find a stone that’s as hard as steel and as green as the first breath of the earth. It’s called pounamu, or nephrite jade. It’s been formed into everything from adzes to earrings, including hei tiki, greenstone pendants handed down in Māori families for generations. Meet a pair of hei tiki—one with two hundred years of family history, and one that's being brought back to life in The Met. From their start as colonial institutions, you'll hear about the role museums can play in setting taonga, or treasures, free. Guests: Dougal Austin, senior curator, Mātauranga Māori, Te Papa Tongarewa The Museum of New Zealand Dan Hikuroa, senior lecturer in Māori Studies, University of Auckland Maia Nuku, Evelyn A. J. Hall and John A. Friede Associate Curator for Oceanic Art, Oceanic Art in The Michael C. Rockefeller Wing, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Lisa Ruaka Reweti, public programs presenter, Whanganui Regional Museum Featured object: Greenstone pendant (hei tiki). Aotearoa New Zealand, Maori. Nephrite jade (pounamu), H. 6 1/8 in. (15.5 cm); W. 3 in. (7.6 cm); D. 1 in. (2.5 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gift of Heber R. Bishop, 1902 (02.18.315) For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Rachel Smith. Special thanks to Chanel Clarke and Cellia Joe-Olsen.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It all begins with a sea creature—a snail called a conch—and the mathematically perfect spiral it transforms into a home, which we humans then put to our lips and play like a trumpet. Throughout time and cultures, conch shells have been used to communicate across great distances, from signaling on the battlefield to connecting with the divine. Hear stories about a jazz musician who plays the conch to connect with his ancestors, why a sacred Incan site way up in the Andes became a ceremonial conch concert hall, and how a conch shell made its way from the depths of the ocean to echoing through the Great Hall of The Met. Guests: Bradley Strauchen-Scherer, curator, Musical Instruments, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Markus Sesko, associate curator of Asian arms and armor, Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Steve Turre, master jazz trombonist and seashellist Jim Waterman, founder and owner of Shell World Miriam A. Kolar, scholar of archaeoacoustics and  lead investigator for the Chavín de Huántar Archaeological Acoustics Project Featured object: Conch Shell Trumpet, late 19th century. Vanuatu, Melanesian. Conch shell, 12 x 6 in. (30.5 x 15.2 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, The Crosby Brown Collection of Musical Instruments, 1889 (89.4.772) For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Elyse Blennerhassett. Music in this episode performed and composed by Steve Turre, Lemon Guo, Sophia Shen, Elyse Blennerhassett, Austin Fisher, and Chris Zabriskie. Shell recordings from Chavin provided by Miriam Kolar and performed by Miriam Kolar, Robert Silva, Ricardo Guerrero La Luna, Riemann Ramirez, Ronald San Miguel, and Tito La Rosa. Special thanks to Tim Caster, Markus Sesko, John Guy, Maia Nuku, James Doyle, Julia Waterman, Paul Schneider, and Peter Rinaldi.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In seventeenth-century Europe, some of the wealthiest women in the world were doing something strange with the ceramic jars in their curiosity cabinets. They were eating them. But these clay pieces from Mexico—called búcaros—weren't just some bizarre snack. They were seen as a piece of the “New World,” one you could touch, smell, and taste. They were so well known that they even made it into the foreground of masterpiece paintings. But what is the real story behind these jars? Who is preserving this centuries-old ceramic tradition, and what does it mean to be one of the few artists who still works with this specific, sensuous clay? Guests: Fernando Jimón Melchor, master ceramics artisan from Tonalà, Mexico Federico Carò, research scientist, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Margaret Connors McQuade, Deputy Director & Curator of Decorative Arts, The Hispanic Society Museum & Library Ronda Kasl, curator of Latin American Art, The American Wing, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Jorge Cañizares-Esguerra, professor and historian of science and medicine at the University of Texas Featured object: Covered jar (Búcaros), ca. 1675–1700. Mexico, Tonalà. Earthenware, burnished, with white paint and silver leaf, 27 3/4 in. (70.5 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Sansbury-Mills Fund, 2015 (2015.45.2a, b) For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial #MetImmaterial Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Eleanor Kagan and Ariana Martinez. Translation, photos and field production by Fernando Hernandez Becerra of Esto no es radio. Special thanks to Marie Clapot, Monika Bincsik, Sarah Cowan, Lam Thuy Vo, and ArtShack Brooklyn.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Join Nadine M. Orenstein, Abraham Thomas, Adrian Forty, and Marco Leona as they explore the multifaceted world of concrete. They discuss the material's paradoxical nature—both a memorial and a destroyer—reflecting on its symbolism in art and architecture. Hear about the vast production of concrete and its environmental impact. Discover how Colombian artist Doris Salcedo uses concrete to express grief and memory, challenging perceptions while highlighting its role in identity and loss. It's a riveting conversation on concrete's power and presence in our lives.

Taz Ahmed, an author and activist, shares poignant memories of Archie comics during the Bangladesh Liberation War, illustrating paper’s role in personal history. Rachel Mustalish discusses the art and challenges of paper conservation at The Met, emphasizing its fragility and significance. Nancy Rosin uncovers the evolution of Valentine's Day cards, while Allison Rudnick dives into the museum's ephemera collection, celebrating paper as a vessel for memories and emotions. Together, they explore the timeless bond between people and the printed page.

Introducing Immaterial, a brand new podcast from The Met. Hosted by poet Camille T. Dungy, Immaterial examines the materials of art and what they can reveal about history, humanity, and the world at large. Launching May 25th; new episodes publish every other Wednesday. For a transcript and more information, please visit www.metmuseum.org/immaterialSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.