The Long Game

Carl Hulse is chief Washington correspondent for the New York Times and has been writing about Congress for the Times for three decades. He knows the US Capitol better than almost anyone. He's also the author of "Confirmation Bias: Inside Washington's War Over the Supreme Court, from Scalia's Death to Justice Kavanaugh." Carl interviewed Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Thursday, and of course we talked about that. But we also discussed what it was like to cover impeachment from start to finish, and what it's like to work on Capitol Hill without losing touch with the outside world. We discussed Twitter, and I told Carl how having a tweet go viral can be weirdly like being inside a pentecostal church service. We also talked about why House Speaker Nancy Pelosi went from buttoned down last September to tearing up a text of the president's speech at the State of the Union, and what that means. And I asked Carl to reflect on what kind of president Bernie Sanders would be. Outro music: "Crowded Table" by The Highwomen Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Lee Drutman is author of "Breaking the Two Party Doom Loop: The Case for Multi-party Democracy in America." He says introducing ranked choice voting would make it more likely that other political parties would emerge beyond just the two we have now. Drutman's book argued for abolishing party primaries as well, and for using ranked choice voting to elect members of Congress as well. Drutman is a senior fellow in the Political Reform program at New America. Outro music: "Awaiting Resurrection" by Drive-By Truckers Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Yuval Levin is director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute and Editor in Chief of National Affairs magazine. This is our third conversation on this podcast, and comes as Levin is releasing his third book, "A Time to Build." "We lack the grammar and vocabulary to talk about what is breaking down, and so cannot even begin to do something about it. We look for diagnoses in the realms made visible to us by our assorted sciences of society, but the troubles we find there are not sufficient to justify our despondent mood. Something has gone wrong somewhere else, in some invisible realm, and we have been straining to perceive and describe what it might be," Levin writes in his new book. The theme and cause of institutions is something we have been discussing since mid-2017 on this show. You can listen to that first conversation here, and to our second from 2018 here. One of his most valuable insights is the concept of platforms and molds. This is the point that for too many of us, institutions have become merely vehicles for us to use to promote ourselves, rather than objects worthy of devotion. Now if institutions hold only marginal value, then perhaps we shouldn't be discussing the possibility of devoting ourselves to them, and in some cases sublimating our own egos and brands to larger institutional goals. But the entire point of this podcast has been, in fact, to explore the notion that institutions are in fact indispensable, and to better understand why that is. Levin has played a crucial and deeply influential role in this exploration, for which I'm grateful. Outro music: "Song in My Head" by Madison Cunningham Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jeffrey Rosen is the president and CEO of the National Constitution Center, a contributing writer for The Atlantic Magazine, a law professor at George Washington University, and the author of Conversations With RBG: Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg on Life, Love, Liberty, and Law. I spoke with Rosen about what we can expect from Chief Justice John Roberts as he presides over the Senate impeachment trial, and also about his writing on the dangerous direction that American democracy is headed in, and how to possibly turn things around. Rosen's 2018 Atlantic Piece: "Madison vs the Mob" Rosen's 2019 Atlantic Piece: "How to Revive Madison's Constitution" Outro music: "It Might Be Time" by Tame Impala Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Bob Inglis was leading the charge 20 years ago to impeach President Bill Clinton. Inglis was an up and coming Republican congressman from South Carolina, and a self-described bomb-thrower. A few years ago, Inglis asked to meet Clinton at his offices in Harlem. He walked into that meeting and asked Clinton's forgiveness. This is a conversation about how that transformation came about, and about what Inglis is up to now. He's been a lonely voice on the political right seeking to raise awareness about climate change, but he said that conservatives are slowly coming around on the issue, and that whenever President Trump exits the stage, he will "take climate disputation with him." Outro music: "Crowded Table" by The Highwomen Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Susan Glasser is a staff writer for The New Yorker, where she writes a weekly column on "Trump's Washington," and she is a global affairs analyst for CNN. She founded Politico Magazine and was editor of Politico during the 2016 election. She was editor-in-chief of Foreign Policy magazine, and previous to that a senior editor at the Washington Post, following years of reporting in Russia, Washington, and Iraq and Afghanistan. We talk in depth about her impressions of the impeachment hearings, which she watched every second of. Glasser is the author of "Kremlin Rising: Vladimir Putin's Russia and the End of the Revolution," which she co-wrote with her husband, Peter Baker, who is the chief White House correspondent for The New York Times. Glasser wrote in her most recent column about the two worlds of the impeachment hearings, and how that played out specifically with regard to Republican defenses of President Trump, in part by trying to blame Ukraine — not Russia — for election interference in the 2016 U.S. election. Outro music: "The Drawing of the Line" by Josienne Clarke Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jack Goldsmith is the author of "In Hoffa's Shadow: A Stepfather, a Disappearance in Detroit, and My Search for the Truth." It's the story of his step-father, Chuckie O'Brien, and the man he spent much of his life working for, Jimmy Hoffa. Goldsmith weaves his own personal story into a dramatic and compelling tale of how Robert F. Kennedy abused government power to go after Hoffa, and set bad precedents for government surveillance and targeting of individuals. These themes intersected with Goldsmith's own career when he found himself at the center of a massive fight inside the White House in 2004 over whether there was legal justification for torture and secret spying on American soil. Goldsmith is a law professor at Harvard University and co-founder of the Lawfare website. He was director of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel from 2003 to 2004. He wrote a book about his time there, called "The Terror Presidency." Outro song: "King of You" by Wilco Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Chris Hayes is the host of "All In With Chris Hayes," a nightly hour-long show on MSNBC that airs at 8 p.m. He wrote "Twilight of the Elites" in 2011, and a second book "A Colony in a Nation" in 2017. "The most important social project we must undertake in the wake of the fail decade," he wrote in "Twilight of the Elites," "is reconstructing our institutions so that we once against feel comfortable trusting them." I asked Chris about whether political parties should have more say over who they nominate in their primaries. He said he has thought about that question a lot, and has wondered how he would handle it on his own show if someone like Kanye West actually ran for president as a Democrat. He indicated he would feel the obligation to speak out against such a nominee, but also implied that he knew it would be difficult to do so given the public's attitudes about what they think of as democratic and undemocratic. Hayes has his own podcast, which is called "Why Is This Happening?" We talked here a little about why he does a podcast given his already heavy work load and large platform. Outro Song: "In Care of 8675309" by Lambchop Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Stacey Abrams is a 45-year old politician who ran for governor of Georgia last year and lost, but in the process became a nationally known Democratic star. She's at the top of the list of potential running mates for the 2020 Democratic presidential field. And she's only seen her her profile rise since last fall by contending that Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp, a Republican, defeated her through underhanded tactics. Abrams is the most prominent public critic of voter suppression. We talk in this episode about the reasons why many Americans don't think voter suppression is a problem, whether their minds can be changed, and what Abrams is doing to fight it. Abrams also weighs in on the story of the Quitman 10+2, the subject of my in depth investigation earlier this year. Abrams also tells me that she still wants to be president of the United States, even if she has chosen not to run in 2020. And we talk about why she is comfortable talking in blunt terms about gaining and keeping power, a topic that most people approach delicately or not at all. We end by Abrams talking about how she became a fan of country music, and why a song called "Pray to Jesus" by Brandy Clark is one of her favorites. "[Clark] really speaks to the existential challenge that faces, you know, the working class and the poor, which is that there seem to only be two ways to achieve progress. Either, you know, prayers answered or you win the lottery. And I want to believe that there's more. And that's why I'm committed to trying to make sure voting works, because we should make sure there are three chances. Pray to Jesus, win the lotto or vote for people who lead us forward," Abrams said. Outro song: "Pray to Jesus" by Brandy Clark. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Mako Fujimura is an artist and a philosopher. He's been blowing my mind for 15 years, first with his painting and then with his writing. "Culture is not a territory to be won; it is instead a resource we are called to steward," he has said. That statement is a rebuke to the last forty years of American life. Mako is a Christian, and so he is in particular rebuking American Christianity. He gives us a radically different paradigm through which to view the world. He is a renowned painter. His works have been shown all over the world, at "the Dillon Gallery in New York, Sato Museum in Tokyo, The Tokyo National University of Fine Arts Museum, Bentley Gallery in Arizona, Gallery Exit and Oxford House at Taikoo Place in Hong Kong, Vienna's Belvedere Museum, Shusaku Endo Museum in Nagasaki." "He is one of the first artists to paint live on stage at New York City's legendary Carnegie Hall as part of an ongoing collaboration with composer and percussionist, Susie Ibarra." Mako paints using an ancient Japanese technique called Nihonga, which relies on the use of pulverized minerals and is makes use of papers made from Japanese mulberry and hemp fibers. He has likened his use of these pulverized minerals to the way that suffering can be redeemed in our own lives. "These materials themselves have to be pulverized and pounded to become beautiful," he said. We talk about his experience on 9/11/01, when he lived three blocks from the World Trade Center and didn't know for some time that morning whether his children, who were in school two blocks from the towers, had survived. This is from an August 2019 commencement address: "After 9/11, I had to train my imagination by painting over and over images of fire. I needed to transform haunting memories and images of destructive fire into the fire of sanctification. When I saw the spire fall at Notre Dame last month, yes, I was right back where I started — but I was able, also, to turn my mind and my heart back to my studio near Ground Zero, and again go into my daily practice toward sanctification. These fires do not have to end in destruction. Fire can purify our memory and desire. ("Memory and desire, stirring Dull roots with spring rain." T.S Eliot, The Wasteland) A renewed neuron network can form, if we imagine through the darkness." Mako has written three books: "Culture Care," "Silence and Beauty," and "Refractions." His work on "Silence and Beauty" brought him into collaboration with renowned director Martin Scorsese, who directed the film "Silence," a story based on the Japanese novel by the same name written by Shusaki Endo, which plays a big part in Mako's book. Here are links to a few other writings & speeches. "The Aroma of the New" - Makoto Fujimura commencement address at Belhaven University, 2011 "Would You Give Your Life for Beauty?" - Makoto Fujimura commencement address at Messiah College, 2013 "Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/thelonggame. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.