The Just Security Podcast

More than two decades after the 9/11 attacks, counterterrorism still dominates most security policies and practices around the world, including at the United Nations. And yet, the problem of terrorism persists around the world – from southwestern Pakistan, to the October 7 Hamas attack on Israel, to the Sahel.Across the board, nations are failing to address the root causes of extremism. What might alternative approaches to counterterrorism look like? Perhaps no one is better equipped to consider the impact of counterterrorism on human rights than Fionnuala Ní Aoláin. This is Part 1 of a special two-part conversation. Please join us next week for Fionnuala’s insights into the human rights implications caused by spyware and personal data collection. Fionnuala recently completed her tenure as the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Human Rights and Counterterrorism. She was the first U.N. expert to visit the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and issued a landmark report on how Guantanamo deprives both the detainees and the 9/11 victims of the justice they all deserve. She assessed the conditions in prisons and camps in northeast Syria that still hold over 50,000 people more than 5 years after the defeat of the Islamic State. She raised awareness of the role of gender in counterterrorism and of the repressive effect of counterterrorism tactics on civil society, and she enumerated the ever-expanding counterterrorism mandate at the U.N. Fionnuala is a law professor at the University of Minnesota  and at Queens University School of Law in Belfast, Northern Ireland and an executive editor at Just Security.Show Notes:  Fionnuala Ní Aoláin (@NiAolainF)Paras Shah (@pshah518) Viola Gienger (@ViolaGienger)Part 2 of our conversation with FionnualaFionnuala’s Just Security article “Rethinking Counterterrorism” Just Security's Ending Perpetual War Symposium Just Security’s counterterrorism coverageJust Security northeast Syria coverageJust Security’s Guantanamo coverageThe U.N. Special Rapporteur on counter-terrorism and human rights’ website (including reports during Fionnuala's term, which ended Oct. 31)The Guantánamo Artwork and Testimony of Moath Al-Alwi: Deaf Walls Speak (Alexandra S. Moore and Elizabeth Swanson, Editors)Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)Music: “Moving” by Brock Hewitt from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/brock-hewitt-stories-in-sound/moving (License code: JIUYKTT0FITX2S4X)

Across the United States, book bans, and attempted book bans, have hit a record high. Driven in part by newly passed state laws, public schools have seen a thirty-three percent increase in banned books. The vague and subjective language used in these laws leave school boards struggling to figure out exactly what content is prohibited. Some school boards, like the Mason City School District in Iowa, have turned to ChatGPT and Artificial Intelligence to comply with these new state laws. But, the inconsistency and limitations of AI technology have led to over inclusive results that disproportionately flag content about the experiences of women and marginalized communities, and raise concerns about free speech and censorship. Joining the show to discuss AI and its effect on book bans is Emile Ayoub.Emile is counsel in the Brennan Center’s Liberty and National Security Program where he focuses on the impact of technology on civil rights and liberties.Show Notes: Emile Ayoub (@eayoubg) Paras Shah (@pshah518) Emile and Faiza Patel’s (@FaizaPatelBCJ) Just Security article on using AI to comply with book bansJust Security’s Artificial Intelligence coverageJust Security’s content moderation coverageMusic: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)Music: “Tunnel” by Danijel Zambo from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/danijel-zambo/tunnel (License code: SBF0UK70L6NH9R3G)

In response to Hamas’ brutal attacks that killed at least 1,400 Israeli civilians and continues with 200 hostages in Hamas control, Israel has imposed a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip. This includes blocking access to electricity, food, and fuel. While Israeli authorities have restored some access to water in southern Gaza the supply remains limited. For the over 2 million civilians in Gaza, the siege has created dire humanitarian conditions. Hospitals are quickly running out of medical supplies, and the International Committee of the Red Cross recently said that humanitarian organizations will not be able to provide life-saving assistance with the siege in place.Joining the show to discuss the siege, and how international law applies to it, is Tom Dannenbaum. Tom is an Associate Professor of International Law at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University where he is also Co-Director of the Center for International Law and Governance. Tom is an expert on international humanitarian law, including siege starvation. Show Notes: Tom Dannenbaum (@tomdannenbaum) Paras Shah (@pshah518) Tom’s Just Security article on the siege of Gaza and the starvation war crimeMark Zeitoun’s Just Security article on access to water in Gaza Ryan Goodman (@rgoodlaw), Michael Meier (@MWMeier23), and Tess Bridgeman’s (@bridgewriter) expert guidance on the law of armed conflict Just Security’s coverage of the Israel-Hamas warMusic: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)Music: “Broken” by David Bullard from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/david-bullard/broken (License code: OSC7K3LCPSGXISVI)

The Under Secretary of Defense for Policy in the U.S. Department of Defense is one of the biggest – and hardest – jobs in Washington. Colin Kahl served in that role for more than two years. From April 2021 to July 2023, he was the principal adviser to Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin for all matters related to national security and defense policy, oversaw the writing of the 2022 National Defense Strategy, which focused on the “pacing challenge” posed by China, and he led the Department’s response to Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, among other international crises. He also led other major defense diplomacy initiatives, like U.S. efforts to revitalize the NATO alliance. Kahl has had a long career in government and public service. During the Obama administration, he served as Deputy Assistant to the President and National Security Advisor to then-Vice President Biden. Before that, he served in the Pentagon as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East for nearly three years.Just Security’s Co-Editor-in-Chief Tess Bridgeman recently sat down with Kahl, who is now a Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Center for International Security and Cooperation, for an exit interview.Show Notes: Colin Kahl (@ColinKahl)Paras Shah (@pshah518) Tess Bridgeman (@bridgewriter) Just Security’s China coverage  Just Security’s Russia-Ukraine war coverageJust Security’s artificial intelligence coverageMusic: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)Music: “Lilac” by “Night Drift” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/night-drift/lilac (License code: CFXEBHMVBA8FXVNC) 

Last week, world leaders arrived in New York for the U.N. General Assembly’s High-Level meetings. They debated the response to Russia’s continued full-scale invasion of Ukraine, made some progress on sustainable development, and considered how to regulate artificial intelligence.  Returning to the show to discuss what we learned from the U.N.’s High-Level week is Richard Gowan. Richard is U.N. Director at the International Crisis Group, an independent organization working to prevent wars and shape policies that will build a more peaceful world. Show Notes: Richard Gowan (@RichardGowan1) Paras Shah (@pshah518) Richard’s Just Security article recapping UNGA 78Just Security’s U.N. General Assembly coverageJust Security’s Russia-Ukraine war coverageJust Security’s climate change coverageJust Security’s Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) coverageMusic: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)Music: “Hypotheticals” by “AK” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/ak/hypothetical (License code: ZYWSWAROJNPTCX30) 

In 2018, the Supreme Court created a revolution in the Fourth Amendment. In Carpenter v. United States, the Court found that the government needed a warrant to obtain data about the cell phone towers to which a person connected when using their phone. That data can reveal the digital breadcrumbs of a person’s life – including where they went and how long they stayed. But cell phone users give that location data to their phone providers, third-party companies like AT&T and Verizon. Those companies don’t have the legal ability to challenge a government’s request for the user’s data. In fact, the companies often can’t even notify the user about a request for information. This creates a paradox. Cell phone users, the people who have a Fourth Amendment right to challenge the government’s request for information, don’t know the government is requesting it and third-party companies know about the request but can’t challenge it in court. The third-party paradox has massive implications for privacy rights and raises important questions about how to challenge the government’s request for information that might be protected by the Fourth Amendment. Joining the show to discuss the third-party paradox and the Fourth Amendment is Michael Dreeben. Michael argued Carpenter and over 100 other cases before the Supreme Court on behalf of the government. He is now a partner at the law firm O’Melveny & Myers, a Distinguished Lecturer from Government at Georgetown University Law Center, and a Lecturer on Law at Harvard Law School. Show Notes: Michael DreebenParas Shah (@pshah518) Resolving Carpenter’s Third-Party Paradox (Part I and Part II) Just Security’s Fourth Amendment coverageMusic: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)Music: “The Clock is Ticking” by Simon Folwar from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/simon-folwar/the-clock-is-ticking (License code: FY1TG2G1ESDYMSHF)

The U.N. General Assembly’s annual meeting is underway in New York. Leaders from around the world will attend the High-Level Week, which begins on September 18. On the agenda are topics ranging from the continuing response Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, to slow progress on sustainable development, and the looming regulation of artificial intelligence. Joining the show to discuss what we expect from this year’s U.N. General Assembly meetings is Richard Gowan. Richard is U.N. Director at the International Crisis Group, an independent organization working to prevent wars and shape policies that will build a more peaceful world.Show Notes: Richard Gowan (@RichardGowan1) Paras Shah (@pshah518) Richard’s Just Security article previewing UNGA 78Just Security’s U.N. General Assembly coverageJust Security’s Russia-Ukraine war coverageJust Security’s climate change coverageJust Security’s Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) coverageMusic: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)Music: “Hypotheticals” by “AK” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/ak/hypothetical (License code: ZYWSWAROJNPTCX30) 

Two decades ago, leaders from around the world had a moment of reckoning. The images and news reports of genocide in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia were still fresh memories, and many countries recognized they hadn’t done enough to respond or prevent the violence. So diplomats at the United Nations had a bold idea. That countries have a collective responsibility to protect their people from war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. This responsibility includes using diplomatic, humanitarian, and other peaceful means to help each country protect its own citizens, but nations also agreed that they were “prepared to take collective action” when peaceful means prove inadequate and national authorities fail to act.  Today, the responsibility to protect, or R2P as it’s often called, is being tested as mass atrocities occur around the world – from Ukraine to Myanmar to the Democratic Republic of the Congo. But, whose responsibility it is to protect – or act – is uncertain.Even at the U.N., no clear direction has emerged. In June, the U.N.’s top official on R2P, George Okoth-Obbo, said he would resign from his role as Special Advisor after just 17 months. Okoth-Obbo isn’t alone. The previous two R2P Special Advisors left after less than 3 years. The Special Advisor’s short tenure leaves people facing atrocity crimes without an ally and advocate at the U.N. Joining the show to discuss the R2P Special Advisor’s role, and why the office has seen so much turnover, is Rebecca Barber. Up until recently Rebecca was a research fellow at the Asia Pacific Centre for the Responsibility to Protect, and she is also an honorary senior research fellow at the University of Queensland. Show Notes: Rebecca Barber (@becjbarber) Paras Shah (@pshah518) Rebecca’s Just Security article analyzing the U.N.’s support for the R2P Special AdvisorJust Security’s coverage of the R2P Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)Music: “A Simple Life” by Brock Hewitt from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/brock-hewitt-stories-in-sound/a-simple-life (License code: WIXYQUFKZO5KP7GO) 

In October 2019, ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was killed during a U.S. military raid on his compound in Syria. Former President Donald Trump called the raid “impeccable,” and the Defense Department said that no civilians were harmed in the operation. But reporting from NPR determined that two civilians were killed and a third lost his arm from U.S. airstrikes. The Defense Department disagreed and dismissed NPR’s claims as “not credible” based in part on a lack of metadata in images that NPR and Airwars, a watchdog group that monitors the civilian impact of military actions, provided. Until now, the U.S. military appears to have never required metadata for images to be considered as evidence. If this new standard continues, it will be much harder for researchers and journalists to collect and submit evidence of civilian harm in U.S. military operations, which erodes accountability when harm occurs.  Joining the show to discuss the Baghdadi raid and the U.S. response to claims of civilian harm are Airwars Director Emily Tripp and Conflict Researcher Anna Zahn. Show Notes:  Emily Tripp (@Emily_4319) Anna ZahnParas Shah (@pshah518) Anna’s Just Security article on the al-Baghdadi raidNPR’s reporting on Syrian casualties in the raid (also in Arabic) Just Security’s coverage of civilian harm Just Security’s coverage of the Department of Defense’s Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Action Plan (CHMR-AP)Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)Music: “Abide” by “Arend” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/arend/abide (License code: OSHRWBZJ90OZARBA)

Former President Donald Trump, facing his fourth criminal case, examines the extensive charges against him in the Georgia indictment. We explore his potential defenses in the Rico case, sequencing and severance in the trial, and whether the case can be removed to federal court.