SpyCast

SummaryNigel West (Wikipedia) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss Germany’s military intelligence service during WWII, the Abwehr. Nigel is known as the expert’s expert on spy history.What You’ll LearnIntelligence The rise and fall of the Abwehr  The 20th of July plot to kill Hitler & Operation Valkyrie  How effective German intelligence was during WWII  How “Nazi” the Abwehr was Reflections The search for truth across generations The power of historical documents EXTENDED SHOW NOTES HERE!Quote of the Week“The Germans were ruthless. They had really good intelligence on all the bridges. They knew exactly what had to be captured in advance. The bridges would then be held, so as to allow the tanks over, and the tanks wouldn't wait to attack strong points. They would just go directly ahead in order to achieve their objectives.” – Nigel West.Glossary Abwehr: Germany’s military intelligence service from 1920-1945, serving both the Riechswehr and Wehrmacht. Translates to “defense.” Reichswehr: The name for German armed forces from 1919-1935, under the Weimar Republic and first two years of the Third Reich. Per the Treaty of Versailles, the Reichswehr was very limited in arms and personnel. Translates to “Reich Defence.”  Wehrmacht: The name for German Armed Forces from 1935-1945 under Nazi Germany. The heavily militarized and manned Wehrmacht illustrated Hitler’s intentions to expand Germany. Translates to “Defense Force.”  Sicherheitsdienst: The intelligence agency of the Schutzstaffel, or SS. Translates to “Security Service.” Gestapo: Nazi Germany’s political police force. Notorious for their brutality and representation of Nazi authoritarianism. Full name Geheime Staatspolizei, translating to “Secret State Police.” EXTENDED SHOW NOTES HERE!Resources SURFACE SKIMFeatured Resource(s) Hitler’s Nest of Vipers: The Rise of the Abwehr, N. West (Frontline, 2022) Hitler's Trojan Horse: The Fall of the Abwehr, N. West (Frontline, 2023) *SpyCasts* Nazis on the Potomac – with former National Park Service Chief Historian Bob Sutton (2022) A Jewish Spy in Nazi Germany – 101-Year-Old Marthe Cohn’s Incredible True Story (2021) *Beginner Resources* July Plot, Britannica (2023) [encyclopedia entry) From War to War in Europe: 1919-1939, National WW11 Museum (2018) [Background on Interwar Period] The Treaty of Versailles, What Did the Big Three Want?, YouTube (2016) [3 min. video] German Chief Spy Admiral Canaris, P. Kross, Warfare History Network (2014) Abwehr, A. Lerner, Encyclopedia.com (n.d.) EXTENDED SHOW NOTES HERE! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryCathy Hackl (Twitter, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss the potential implications of the metaverse on intelligence. Cathy has been called the “Godmother of the Metaverse.”What You’ll LearnIntelligence What the metaverse is Security and counterintelligence in a virtual world Futurism within intelligence agencies  Potential risks and consequences of the metaverse Reflections How virtual spaces can affect our physical world The necessity to evolve alongside technology And much, much more …Episode NotesThe web will continue to evolve and change with time, but what’s coming next? And how will this evolution affect the ways that intelligence organizations around the world conduct their operations?This week on SpyCast, Cathy Hackl joins Andrew to explain what the metaverse is, what we can expect from living in this new virtual world, and how intelligence agencies can begin planning for the Web 3 future. Cathy Hackl has been dubbed the “Godmother of the Metaverse” ResourcesFeatured Resource Into the Metaverse: The Essential Guide to the Business Opportunities of the Web3 Era, Cathy Hackl (Bloomsbury, 2023)  Metaverse Marketing [Cathy’s podcast] *Beginner Resources* What Is the Metaverse, Exactly?, Wired (2022) [Article] Web 3.0 Explained In 5 Minutes, YouTube (2022) [5 min. Video] 12 new tech terms you need to understand the future, R. Gray, BBC (2018) *SpyCasts* How Artificial Intelligence is Changing the Spy Game – with Mike Susong (2022) Trafficking Data: The Digital Struggle with China -- with Aynne Kokas (2022) The FBI & Cyber – with Cyber Division Chief Bryan Vorndran (Part 1 of 2) The FBI & Cyber – with Cyber Division Chief Bryan Vorndran (Part 2 of 2)  *Wildcard Resource*Watch the world’s first metaverse music video, Snoop Dogg’s “House I Built,” here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryShane Harris (Twitter, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss the role of intelligence in the Ukraine conflict one year after it began. Shane reports on intelligence for the Washington Post and is the author of two books.What You’ll Learn Intelligence  Where we are with the war in Ukraine The role intelligence agencies are playing in the conflict The leadership of Zelensky and Putin What it’s like to report on spies Dealing with sources inside the intelligence agencies Reflections The tenacity of the Ukrainian people and army History as both repetitive and unpredictable  Episode NotesThis week on SpyCast, Shane Harris of The Washington Post joins Andrew to reflect on the previous year and discuss the role of intelligence within the war in Ukraine. He has been writing about these issues for more than two decades, including a period with the Wall Street Journal. He is the author of two books, The Watchers, on the rise of surveillance in the US, and @War, on the rise of the military-internet complex. He was part of a team that won the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service in 2021.Quote of the Week“At the outset, [I] believed that what we were looking at was probably a pretty swift Russian victory … They would come in, they would decapitate the central government in Kiev in the first 72 hours, and it would be bloody, and it would be violent, but that Russia would prevail because they were deemed to have the superior military in terms of technology experience numbers. Turns out, all those things were spectacularly wrong.” – Shane Harris.Resources *SpyCasts* How Artificial Intelligence is Changing the Spy Game with Mike Susong (2023) Dealing with Russia A Conversation with Counterintelligence Legend Jim Olson (2022) Becoming a Russian Intelligence Officer with Janosh Neumann (2022) The Information Battlespace: Foreign Denial and Deception with Bill Parquette (2022) *Beginner Resources* Has Putin's war failed and what does Russia want?, P. Kirby, BBC (2023) A Brief History of Modern Ukraine, BBC (2022) [YouTube video] Russia-Ukraine Relations in 60 Seconds, CBC News (2022) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryAliza Bran (LinkedIn, Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss her role as Media Relations Manager at the International Spy Museum. Aliza is a D.C. native and graduate of Washington University in St. Louis. What You’ll LearnIntelligence The media and intelligence International Spy Museum Artifacts Espionage fact vs. fiction The history of The International Spy Museum Reflections Creativity & Ingenuity  Growing up in the DMV  And much, much more …Episode NotesAliza Bran’s passion and excitement for the world of SPY is contagious. Around the office of the International Spy Museum, Aliza is known for her cheerful demeanor, quick wit, and intensely creative mind. She’s been working at SPY for six years now, four of those years as our Media Relations Manager. How does Aliza navigate the ever-changing media landscape and represent the International Spy Museum on this worldwide stage? What are Aliza’s favorite memories, artifacts, and exhibits from SPY? What makes her love this work so much, and what skills do you need to build a career in media relations? Tune in to find out. And… Aliza has been particularly busy these past few weeks covering the news surrounding the Chinese Spy Balloon. For a taste of Aliza’s work, find articles and video on the subject that she orchestrated here, here, here, and here. Quote of the Week“Part of it for me is knowing that we live in a very polarized world right now and I want to have a sense of our full audience, which is everyone. So I'm going to look at stories, places that aren't natural fits for where I tend to go. Because if people go there to read the news, I want to know what they're reading, I want to know what interests them. I want to know what people are excited about, worried about, looking at.” – Aliza Bran.Resources *SpyCasts* My Life Looking at Spies & the Media with Paul Lashmar (2021)*Beginner Resources* What is Media Relations?, Nancy Shenker, ClearVoice (2021) [Blog Post] Paid vs. Owned vs. Earned Media: What's the Difference?, Indeed (2021) [Article] Books The Good Assassin, S. Talty (Mariner, 2020) The Alice Network, K. Quinn (William Morrow, 2017) Articles Deadly Women, Dirty Laundry, and a Shootout With The IRA, Reaper Feed (2020)Video Former CIA Operative Explains How Spies Use Disguises, WIRED (2019) Meet a Former CIA Chief of Disguise, Atlas Obscura (2020) Alias, ABC (2001-2006) Artifacts from SPY’s Collection  Scrotum Concealment Aston Martin DB5 Iron Concealment Device *Wildcard Resource*Check out the Refinery29 article that features Aliza’s SPY expertise applied to the collection and analysis of Taylor Swift-related intelligence.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryAlan Kohler joins Andrew to discuss the FBI’s counterintelligence division. He is a recipient of the FBI Director’s Award for Outstanding Counterintelligence Investigation. ***FULL SHOWNOTES AVAILABLE HERE***What You’ll LearnIntelligence Counterintelligence vs. Counterespionage How the FBI recruit’s foreign agents  Ideological motivations behind spying Effect of technology on counterintelligence Reflections Staying grounded under pressure  The value of creativity NotesAlan Kohler (LinkedIn, Website) has been the FBI Assistant Director for Counterintelligence since 2020. Alan and Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) talk all things counterintelligence.***FULL RESOURCES AVAILABLE HERE****SpyCasts* The FBI & Cyber with Cyber Division Chief Bryan Vorndran, Part 1 (2022) The FBI & Cyber with Cyber Division Chief Bryan Vorndran, Part 2 (2022) My Global Career as a Female FBI Agent with Kathy Stearman (2021) The FBI Way with Counterintelligence Spy Chief Frank Figliuzzi (2021) ***FULL RESOURCES AVAILABLE HERE****Beginner Resources* What We Investigate, FBI (n.d.) [webpage] FAQ’S, FBI (n.d.) [webpage] US Opens Counterintelligence Investigation into China Every 12 Hours (Dir. Wray), MSNBC (2022) [video] What We Know About China’s Spy Agency, Bloomberg Originals (2019) [video] Hollow Nickel/Rudolf Abel, FBI (n.d.) [Article] NCSC Mission, Vision, and Goals, ODNI (n.d.) [Website] Glossary:  Counterintelligence: Information gathered, and activities conducted to identify, deceive, exploit, disrupt, or protect against espionage or other intelligence activities FBI Attaché: a special agent assigned to a U.S. embassy or consulate overseas to liaise with local law enforcement and intelligence agencies. They pursue terrorist, intelligence, and criminal threats with international dimensions.  Occam’s Razor: a rule of thumb theory that states when you are faced with competing explanations for the same phenomenon, the simplest one is probably the correct one. Attributed to William of Ockham, a 14th century English theologian.  ***FULL RESOURCES AVAILABLE HERE*** Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryMike Susong joins Andrew to discuss the impact and potential of AI on the intelligence field. Mike is a former CIA case officer who now oversees global intelligence for a risk management company.***FULL SHOW NOTES AVAILABLE HERE!***What You’ll LearnIntelligence What AI is and why it matters How the Intelligence Community is using AI  The pros and cons of AI for case officers in the field Ukraine - intersections between AI and OSINT AI in Alan Turing’s Imitation Game Reflections Replicants, machines and robots Will humans become obsolete? NotesMike Susong (Website, LinkedIn) is an expert in the growing field of artificial intelligence. He joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss.***FULL RESOURCES AVAILABLE HERE!****SpyCasts* From the CIA to Strategic Cyber -- with Hans Holmer (2022) So, I Design Board Games for the CIA... - with Volko Ruhnke (2022) CIA Case Officer, Cyber Entrepreneur, Burning Man Volunteer – with Mike Susong (Part 1 of 2, 2022) CIA Case Officer, Cyber Entrepreneur, Burning Man Volunteer – with Mike Susong (Part 2 of 2, 2002) The Cyber Zeitgeist – with Cyberwire Host Dave Bittner (2021) ***FULL RESOURCES AVAILABLE HERE!****Beginner Resources* Machine Leaning: Explain it to me Like I’m 5 Years Old, Bob Deprizio, Medium (2020) What is AI (Artificial Intelligence)?, Youtube (2019) [2 min. video] Singularity: Explain it to me Like I’m 5 Years Old, Roey Tzezana, Futurism (2017) [Article] Alan Turing: The experiment that shaped artificial intelligence, N. Sharkey, BBC (2012) [Article]  Glossary:  AGI: Artificial General Intelligence. The unrestricted ability of software to learn, understand, & respond to any intellectual task that a human being is capable of.  ANI: Artificial Narrow Intelligence. The restricted ability of software to perform a limited subset of intellectual tasks.  Deep Learning: a machine learning technique that teaches computers to learn by example, something that comes naturally for human beings. Machine Learning: The field of study interested in building computational systems that can improve their own performance of some task. Natural Language Processing: A field of study that aims to analyze and understand human language communications both spoken and textual.  Uncanny Divide: Where people feel a sense of unease or revulsion in response to humanoid robots that are highly realistic. ***FULL RESOURCES AVAILABLE HERE!*** Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryAlexander Rose (Website; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss a gripping spy-vs-spy true story from the U.S. Civil War. He wrote the book that was the inspiration behind the hit TV-series TURN.What You’ll LearnIntelligence The secret plot to build a Confederate Navy Why Liverpool was so important to both the North and the South  How Civil War espionage played out in Great Britain  The high-level spy the South had in the British Foreign Office  Reflections The birth of the Atlantic World The malleability of public opinion And much, much more …Episode NotesLiverpool. The city of the Beatles. The home of Liverpool F.C., winner of six European Cups. Did you know that there – thousands of miles away from the bloody battlefields of Fredericksburg, Shiloh, and Gettysburg – the U.S. Civil War played out? In fact, it was a key part of the strategies of both the North and the South since at that time it produced more ships than every other dockyard in the world combined. The North wanted to choke off the South, with the help of spies; but the South wanted to build a navy, with the help of spies. Who would prevail? This is the story of spy-vs-spy, North vs South, and Thomas Dudley vs James Bulloch.And… If this spy story makes you hungry for more, check out Alex’s historical espionage newsletter, Spionage. Quotes of the Week“If Dudley hadn't stopped Bulloch, or if Dudley hadn't existed and Bulloch created this massive fleet of blockade runners and had built more commerce raiders … You would've had a many more sinkings of American merchant vessels. You would've had larger inflows of arms and weapons into the South. The biggest change of all would've been that having the sea lanes open like that would've allowed the South to fight on much longer than it actually did.”Resources SURFACE SKIMAndrew’s RecommendationYou must watch Ken Burns landmark documentary The Civil War; but, you must also read more recent commentary and critique – there’s even a whole book related to it.  Headline Resource The Lion and the Fox: Two Rival Spies and the Secret Plot to Build a Confederate Navy, A. Rose (Mariner, 2022)*Beginner Resources* Civil War: Evolution of Espionage in America, INTEL.gov (n.d.) [digital exhibition] The History of Liverpool, Historic UK (2018) [webpage] Liverpool and the American Civil War, National Museums Liverpool (n.d.) [short article] British Support During the U.S. Civil War, LDHI (n.d.) [digital exhibit] DEEP DIVE*SpyCasts* George Sharpe and the BMI – Peter Tsouras (2019)  Intelligence in the Early Republic – Ken Diagler (2015) The Beginnings of U.S. Overhead Reconnaissance – Jim Green (2014) Intelligence and Espionage in the U.S. Civil War - William Feis (2012)  Books The Civil War Abroad, J. Priestley (McFarland, 2022) Cotton, Liverpool and the American Civil War, J. Powell, (LUP, 2020) Lincoln’s Spies, D. Waller (S&S, 2019) Liar, Temptress, Soldier, Spy, K. Abbott (Harper, 2015) The Union and Confederate Navies, J. McPherson (University of North Carolina, 2012) The Civil War at Sea, C. Symonds (Oxford, 2012) Articles Liverpool, site of last surrender in US Civil War, S. Abdelaziz, CNN (2020) CSS Alabama: Lost and Found, Naval History & Heritage Command (2020) Primary Sources  The Secret Service of the Confederate States in Europe, J.D. Bulloch (1882) Letter from J.D. Bulloch to General McRae et al (1865) Dudley Introduces Lincoln to a Liverpudlian Union Sympathizer (1863) Dudley’s Concerns About Southern Secession (1860) *Wildcard Resource(s)*You know Liverpool as the city of the Beatles. Did you know that The Beatles’ first single “Love Me Do” and James Bond’s debut movie “Dr. No” were released within a month of each other in 1962? And while none of the Beatles went on to become spies themselves, Ringo married Bond girl Barbara Bach in 1980 and Paul was behind the first rock Bond theme song, “Live and Let Die,” in 1973.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryJim Popkin (Twitter, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss America’s most damaging female spy, Ana Montes. Jim is a four-time recipient of the national Emmy Award for outstanding journalism.What You’ll LearnIntelligence How Ana Montes was recruited Her espionage at the heart of the Department of Defense Cuban intelligence tactics  The molehunt to capture Montes Reflections The “City of Spies” Washington D.C. Betrayal and familial loss And much, much more …Episode NotesShe’s “the most famous spy no one’s ever heard of” – Why? Clouded by the tragedy of 9/11, Ana Montes was arrested on suspicion of espionage on September 21, 2001, as the Twin Towers smoldered. She had been spying for Cuba for almost two decades, sending secrets from the heart of American intelligence to Fidel Castro’s regime. This week, author and investigative journalist Jim Popkin joins Andrew to discuss Ana Montes’ story framed by his new book, Code Name Blue Wren: The True Story of America's Most Dangerous Female Spy—and the Sister She Betrayed. Jim debriefs us on how Ana was recruited, how she gathered and sent secrets, and how she ultimately the net closed in on her. And… The timing couldn’t be better to discuss Ana Montes’ story. Ana was released from prison two weeks ago on January 6th after serving 21 of her 25-year prison sentence. Why has Ana been released while fellow spies who caused tremendous damage, Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames, remain incarcerated? Tune into this week’s episode to find out!Quotes of the Week“There's a haunting message that the FBI found on her laptop from the Cubans that said, ‘Thank you so much for revealing [Redacted.] We are waiting for him here with open arms.’ So, she revealed the real name of someone who was headed to Cuba, the Cubans were aware of it, and, and they were, ‘waiting for him with open arms.’” – Jim Popkin.Resources Headline Resource Code Name Blue Wren: The True Story of America's Most Dangerous Female Spy—and the Sister She Betrayed, J. Popkin (Hanover, 2023)*SpyCasts* “SPY@20: Spy of the Century Kim Philby” - With Curators Alexis and Andrew (2022) America's Most Damaging Russian Spy: FBI Agent Robert Hanssen – with Lis Wiehl (2022) Leningrad, Molehunts, and Life After the CIA – with Christopher Burgess (2021) FBI Special Agent Pete Lapp (2019) *Beginner Resources* Ana Montes: Cuban Spy, FBI History (n.d.) [Short Article] A Timeline of US-Cuba Relations, I. Roman, HISTORY (2021) [Timeline] The Evolving Motives of American Spies, N. Hunt, Washingtonian (2013) [Article] Books Castro’s Nemesis: True Stories of a Master Spy-Catcher, C. Simmons (Independently Published, 2022) American Spies, M. Sulick (GUP, 2013) True Believer: Inside the Investigation and Capture of Ana Montes, S. Carmichael (Naval Institute, 2009) United States-Cuban Relations: A Critical History, E. M. Dominguez (Lexington, 2008) Articles ”Ana Montes released from prison” C. Yilek, CBS News (2023) “A DC Resident Spied for Cuba for Years. How Did She Get Away With It?” S. McNamara, Washingtonian (2023) “Ana Montes: How Cuban spy used incredible memory to betray US” C. Bailey, BBC (2023) “How Spy Agencies Use American Universities to Secretly Recruit Students” D. Golden, Town & Country (2017) Video Traitors Within - Spies Who Sold Out America, YouTube (2018) The Two Faces of Ana: Model Employee/Cuban Spy, YouTube (2017) Primary Sources  The Ana Montes Press Reports (various)  Prisoner of Conscience: Ana Belen Montes is free! (2023) Scholars or Spies? House of Representatives Hearing (2018) Inspector General Review of Ana Montes Investigation (2005) Ana Montes Statement During Trial (2001) FBI Arrests DIA Employee (2001) *Wildcard Resource* “Lasso of Truth!” Wonder Woman’s secret power has a connection to the polygraph... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryJohn Hamilton (LinkedIn, Website) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss Woodrow Wilson and the birth of American propaganda during WWI. He is a Professor of Journalism at Louisiana State University. What You’ll LearnIntelligence Propaganda as a form of covert action  The history of the Committee on Public Information  Woodrow Wilson & Intelligence Deception and mental manipulation  Reflections There is nothing new under the sun...or is there? Life chapters in very different settings And much, much more …Episode NotesWhen the Committee on Public Information was created in April of 1917, the United States was but one week into the first World War. In fact, the Selective Service Act would not come about for another month after the organization of the CPI. Why was Woodrow Wilson so quick to establish a system of control over public opinion, and how successful was this endeavor?To answer these questions and more, author John Hamilton joins Andrew in a conversation about how propaganda and manipulation were used as a covert tactic during WWI and beyond. As John notes, “everything that’s done today can be traced to the CPI.”And… While the CPI formally existed for only a year, its impact and imagery has endured for over 100 years. For proof, look no further than the story of the iconic “I Want You!” poster of Uncle Sam. Quotes of the Week“You may not like the enemy, but the enemy and you are doing the same thing to manipulate people’s attitudes. And while you may think you have a just cause, your means are quite often the same – Right down to lying, and manipulation and coercion.” – John Hamilton. Resources Surface SkimHeadline Resource Manipulating the Masses: Woodrow Wilson and the Birth of American Propaganda, J. Hamilton (LSU, 2020)*SpyCasts* The Third Option: US Covert Action with Loch Johnson, Part 1 (2022) The Third Option: US Covert Action with Loch Johnson, Part 2 (2022) Crossfire Hurricane: Trump, Russia & the FBI with Josh Campbell (2021) Intelligence and the Presidency with John Hedley (2008) *Beginner Resources* How Does Propaganda Work? A. Cuncic, VeryWell Mind (2022) [Article] Selling the War, The National WWI Museum and Memorial (2020) [6 min. Video] Committee on Public Information, R. McNamara, ThoughtCo (2019) [Article] Deeper DiveBooks The Imposter’s War, M. Arsenault (Pegasus, 2022) This Is Not Propaganda: Adventures in the War Against Reality, P. Pomerantsev (PublicAffairs, 2020) The Fake News Panic of a Century Ago, L. Huebner (Cognella, 2020) Articles Ukraine’s Garwa Media Fights for Truth in Kharkiv, B. Dooley, Human Rights First (2023) The Espionage Act’s consitutional legacy, S. Bomboy, National Constitution Center (2022) Modern Political Propaganda Posters & the Principles of Art, B. Krudwig, ArtsHelp (2020) Video World War I: Its History and Art, Metropolitan Museum of Art (2017) Crackdown on Dissent, PBS Learning Media (n.d.) Primary Sources  World War I Posters (1914-1920) The Sedition Act (1918) The Espionage Act (1917) To the Four Minute Men, George Creel (1917) Letter From Creel to President Wilson (1917) *Wildcard Resource*Check out the Mussolini funded movie Scipione L’Africano (1937) - an attempt to use the story of a legendary Roman general to justify the fascist regime and its ambitions in North Africa. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SummaryThomas Leahy (Website; LinkedIn) and Eleanor Williams (Website; Twitter) join Andrew to discuss the intelligence war during “the Troubles.” Thomas lives in Cardiff and Eleanor lives in Belfast. What You’ll LearnIntelligence The Troubles through the lens of intelligence Some key intelligence players in the Northern Ireland conflict How the IRA and the British Army adapted organizationally The role intelligence played in the end of the conflict Reflections The fluid nature of motivations and intentions How historic narratives shape and constrain the here-and-now And much, much more…Episode NotesFrom the late 60’s to the late 90’s Republican and Loyalist paramilitaries, and the British and Irish states, were engaged in a period known as “the Troubles”: a struggle to define or redefine the future of the island of Ireland. This is an issue with deep and complex roots, but the intelligence dimension of the period known as the Troubles is fascinating and often overlooked.To help us get our head around it all, Andrew sat down with two specialists to discuss all things intelligence and the Troubles: from the role that MI5 and MI6 played, to the Force Research Unit and the RUC Special Branch, through to how the IRA played the counterintelligence game and the role that informers, agents and moles, such as the notorious “Stakeknife,” played. Thomas is the author of the Intelligence War Against the IRA, while Eleanor is a doctoral candidate comparing intelligence use during the Northern Irish and Colombian conflicts. And…The head of the Republic of Ireland’s police and security intelligence force, the Garda Síochána, is Drew Harris. Drew Harris was a career Royal Ulster Constabulary officer whose father, also a career RUC officer, was killed by the IRA in 1989. He was the first external appointee from outside the Garda.Quote of the Week"What's their [IRA] main role in this intelligence conflict?...one of the key points here…the IRA was quite highly regional regionalized. That's actually quite key to explain why British intelligence had some difficulties against them…Initially, it was set up similar to armed forces. It would have brigades, battalions and companies…the IRA operated this kind of army structure up to 1975…the IRA then switched to this new strategy…And part of this was to prevent mass infiltration, which had started to become a problem, particularly in Belfast pre-1975. So, what it adopted in Belfast and Derry was a cell structure." – Thomas LeahyResourcesBooks The Intelligence War Against the IRA, T. Leahy (CUP, 2020) Britain’s Secret War Against the IRA, A. Edwards (Merrion, 2021) Thatcher’s Spy, W. Carlin (Merrion, 2019) The Accidental Spy, S. O’Driscoll (Mirror, 2019) Snitch! S. Hewitt (Continuum, 2010) Infiltrating the IRA, R. Gilmour (LB&C, 1998) Fifty Dead Men Walking, M. McGartland (Blake, 1997) Best Books on the Troubles (Five Books) Articles The Murky World of Spying During the Troubles, J. Ware, Irish Times (2017) Alternative Ulster: How Punk Took on the Troubles, T. Heron, Irish Times (2016) AudioMI5 Chameleon Infiltrated New IRADocumentary Spotlight on the Troubles: A Secret History, BBC (2019) The Spy in the IRA, BBC (2017) Web  Operation Kenova MI5 in Northern Ireland  Primary Sources IRA-MI6 Intermediary: Interviews with Brendan Duddy (2009) Good Friday Agreement (1998) Downing Street Declaration (1993) Anglo-Irish Agreement (1985) Thatcher Speech at Airey Neave Memorial (1979) IRA Green Book (1977) PM Wilson & Thatcher discuss N. Ireland (1975) Secret Meetings Between Government and IRA (1972) Senator E. Kennedy, Ulster is Britain’s Vietnam (1971) IRA Reports on Intelligence Informants (1922)  W.B. Yeats, “Easter: 1916” (1921) Oral Sources Duchas Oral History Archive (2014)Wildcard Resource “Murals of Northern Ireland” (4500+ Photographs) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices