The Gray Area with Sean Illing cover image

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Latest episodes

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Oct 28, 2019 • 1h 27min

We live in The Good Place. And we’re screwing it up.

Welcome to the first episode of our climate cluster. This isn’t a series about whether “the science is real” on climate change. This is a series about what the science says — and what it means for our lives, our politics, and our future.I suspect I’m like a lot of people in that I accept that climate change is bad. What I struggle with is how bad. Is it an existential threat that eclipses all else? One of many serious problems politics must somehow address?I wanted to kick off the series with someone who knows the science cold. Kate Marvel is a research scientist at NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies and a professor at Columbia University’s Department of Applied Physics and Mathematics. But Marvel isn’t just a leading climate scientist. She’s also unique in her focus on the stories we tell each other, and ourselves, about climate change, and how they end up structuring our decisions. We discuss:- How a climate model actually works- Why this is the good place- Why there is so much variation in climate scientists’ predictions about global temperature increases- Why global warming is only one piece of the much larger problem of climate change- Why a hotter planet is more conducive to natural disasters- The frightening differences between a world that experiences a 2°C temperature increase as opposed to a 5°C temperature increase- Whether the threat of climate change requires solutions that break the boundaries of conventional politics- The underlying stories that animate much of the climate debate- Whether the planet can sustain continued economic growth- What it means to “live morally” amid climate changeAnd much more...Book recommendations:Parable of the Sower by Octavia ButlerParable of the Talents by Octavia ButlerAnnihilation by Jeff VendermeerMy book is available for pre-order! You can find it at www.EzraKlein.com.Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.comYou can subscribe to Ezra's new podcast Impeachment, explained on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Overcast, Pocket Casts, or your favorite podcast app. Credits:Producer and Editor - Jeff GeldResearcher - Roge KarmaEngineer - Ernie Erdat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Oct 24, 2019 • 1h 35min

Neoliberalism and its discontents

“Neoliberalism” is one of the most confusing phrases in political discourse today. The term is often used to describe the market fundamentalism of thinkers like Milton Friedman and Frederich Hayek or politicians like Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. At the same time, critics often place more progressive figures like Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and even Elizabeth Warren under the neoliberal banner. This raises an important question: what the hell is neoliberalism?I decided to bring on two guests today to help us answer that question. Wendy Brown is a professor of political theory at UC Berkeley, author of Undoing the Demos and In the Ruins of Neoliberalism, and one of the foremost critics of neoliberalism, not only as a set of economic policies but a “governing rationality” that infects almost all aspects of our existence. Noah Smith is an economist, a columnist at Bloomberg, and is known for his robust defenses of some (though not all) neoliberal positions, which earned him the prestigious title of Chief Neoliberal Shill of 2018. We discuss:- The differences between neoliberal theory and “actually existing neoliberalism”- Neoliberalism as not only a set of economic policies but a form of “public reason” that influences our very conception of what it means to be human- How neoliberal thought came to dominate almost every aspect of our lives- Whether neoliberalism is an inherently anti-democratic project- The relationship between neoliberal economic policies and traditional morality- The differences between New Deal liberalism and Obama-era neoliberalism- Whether a growth-driven economic model is compatible with our planet's ecological limitsBook recommendations: How Asia Works by Joe StudwellLaw Without Future by Jack JacksonDemocracy in Chains by Nancy McLeanMy book is available for pre-order! You can find it at www.EzraKlein.com.Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.comYou can subscribe to Ezra's new podcast Impeachment, explained on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Overcast, Pocket Casts, or your favorite podcast app. Credits:Producer and Editor - Jeff GeldResearcher - Roge KarmaEngineer - Topher Routh Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Oct 21, 2019 • 56min

The four words that will decide impeachment

Hey EK Show listeners! Something different today. The first episode of my new podcast: Impeachment, Explained.This was the week of confessions. Acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney admitted to a Trump administration quid quo pro with Ukraine, with cameras rolling. EU Ambassador Gordon Sondland confirmed that President Trump made Rudy Giuliani the hinge of America’s Ukraine policy. And then the administration announced that the location for the upcoming G7 summit: Trump’s own resort in Doral, Florida. We break down the three stories that mattered most in impeachment this week.And then we dig into the four words that will shape the entire impeachment fight: “High Crimes and Misdemeanors.” What did they mean when they were added to the Constitution? How have they been interpreted through American history? And do Trump’s acts qualify?Listen to the first episode here, and subscribe to Impeachment, Explained, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Overcast, Pocket Casts, or your favorite podcast app to get stay updated on this story every week.References:"Indispensable Remedy: The Broad Scope of the Constitution’s Impeachment Power" by Gene Healy"The case for normalizing impeachment" by Ezra KleinWant to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.comCredits:Producer and Editor - Jeff GeldResearcher - Roge KarmaEngineers - Malachi Broadus & Jeremey DalmasTheme music composed by Jon NatchezSpecial thanks to Liz Nelson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Oct 17, 2019 • 1h 36min

We don’t just feel emotions. We make them.

How do you feel right now? Excited to listen to your favorite podcast? Anxious about the state of American politics? Annoyed by my use of rhetorical questions?These questions seem pretty straightforward. But as my guest today, psychologist Lisa Feldman Barrett, points out there is a lot more to emotion than meets the mind.Barrett is a superstar in her field. She’s a professor of psychology at Northeastern University, holds appointments at Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital, and has received various prestigious awards for her pioneering research on emotion. Her most recent book How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain argues that emotions are not biologically hardwired into our brains but constructed by our minds. In other words, we don’t merely feel emotions — we actively create them.Barrett’s work has potentially radical implications. If we take her theory seriously, it follows that the ways we think about our daily emotional states, diagnose illnesses, interact with friends, raise our children, and experience reality all need some serious adjusting, if not complete rethinking.If you enjoyed this episode, you should check out:A mind-expanding conversation with Michael PollanThe cognitive cost of poverty (with Sendhil Mullainathan)Will Storr on why you are not yourself A mind-bending, reality-warping conversation with John HiggsBook recommendations: Naming the Mind by Kurt Danzinger The Island of Knowledge by Marcelo Gleiser The Accidental Species by Henry GeeSense and Nonsense by Kevin L. LalandWant to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.comSubscribe to Impeachment, Explained on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Overcast, Pocket Casts, or your favorite podcast app to get stay updated on this story every week.Credits:Producer and Editor - Jeff GeldResearcher - Roge KarmaRecording engineer - Cynthia GilField engineer - Joseph FridmanThe Ezra Klein Show is a production of the Vox Media Podcast Network Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Oct 14, 2019 • 1h 30min

How politics became a war against reality

In his brilliant 2014 book Nothing is True and Everything is Possible, Soviet-born TV producer turned journalist Peter Pomerantsev described 21st-century Russia as a political anomaly. He wrote about “a new type of authoritarianism” that waged war on reality by peddling conspiracy theories, disregarding the notion of truth, and framing all political opposition as the enemy of the people.Sound familiar?Upon leaving Russia, Pomerantsev found that the world around him had been infected with the same post-truth disease he had diagnosed in Moscow. The war against reality had spread across the globe, from London and Washington, DC, to Mexico City and Manila, Philippines. All over the place, the same values that had once defined liberal democracy — free speech, pluralism, the open exchange of ideas — were now being used to undermine it. This development became the centerpiece of his dizzying new book This is Not Propaganda, and it is the focal point of our conversation. We discuss:- How information went from being the tool of dissidents to the tool of authoritarians- Why Russia developed modern, post-truth politics first- The tactics that spin doctors and troll farms use to warp our sense of reality- How the end of the Cold War triggered a global descent into relativist chaos- How liberal democratic values like free speech and pluralism are being used to undermine liberal democracy- Why “all politics is now about creating identity”- Whether it is possible to organize the internet democratically- Why the informational chaos of digital politics is much worse outside the US- The worst butchering of a guest’s name in the show’s historyAnd much more. Taking a step back from our current moment, American politics is now dominated by the internal machinations of the post-Soviet political systems Pomerantsev specializes in understanding. To see our politics clearly requires seeing their politics clearly.References:For a Left Populism by Chantal MouffeOn Populist Reason by Ernest LaclauBook recommendations:The Asthenic Syndrome by Kira Muratova (film)History becomes Form by Boris GroysIf you enjoyed this conversation, you may also like:Jia Tolentino on what happens when life is an endless performance Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.comNews comes at you fast. Join us at the end of your day to understand it. Subscribe to Today, Explained Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Oct 10, 2019 • 1h 22min

The loneliness epidemic

Former US surgeon general Vivek Murthy joins Sean Illing to discuss the loneliness epidemic, highlighting its profound impact on public health. They explore the physical and emotional effects of loneliness, the role of social connection, and the distinction between loneliness and solitude. The podcast also delves into the illusion of loneliness perpetuated by social media and explores the variation of loneliness across cultures. The guest shares impactful book recommendations and offers comfort to those who feel lonely.
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Oct 7, 2019 • 1h 31min

Ibram X. Kendi wants to redefine racism

Racism is one of the most morally charged words in the English language. It is typically understood as a form of deep inner prejudice — something that people actively feel and consciously express. My guest today, Ibram X. Kendi, wants to redefine racism. He defines the idea simply: support for policies that widen racial inequality.Kendi is a professor of African-American Studies and director of the Antiracist Policy Center at American University. His National Book Award-winning Stamped From the Beginning argued that racist policies beget racist ideas, not the other way around. His new book, How to Be an Antiracist, is a continuation of that project. It focuses on racism as a structural ecosystem that black people face, not a prejudice that white people feel.The implications of this redefinition are far-reaching. Are you a racist if you loathe people who aren’t of your race but don’t want to pass policy on it? Are you a racist if you tried to narrow racial inequality but your program backfired?In this conversation, we map the boundaries of Kendi’s definition and its implications. We discuss his admission that he “used to be racist most of the time,” his argument against racial integration, whether it’s giving too much power to policy to blame it for all racial inequality, whether the word “racist” is too charged for the more nuanced conversations we need to have, the meta-philosophy behind African-American studies, and much more.Book recommendations: Autobiography of Malcolm X (as told to Alex Haley)The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. DuBois Fatal Invention by Dorothy Roberts Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.comNews comes at you fast. Join us at the end of your day to understand it. Subscribe to Today, ExplainedWe are conducting an audience survey to better serve you. It takes no more than five minutes, and it really helps out the show. Please take our survey hereRegister to attend the live Ezra Klein Show taping in SF Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Oct 3, 2019 • 1h 37min

Malcolm Gladwell’s Stranger Things

Malcolm Gladwell’s work is nothing short of an intellectual adventure. Sometimes, as in his podcast Revisionist History, he takes something small and mundane — a hockey statistic, a semicolon, a verbal tic — and draws a broad, sweeping conclusion that shatters your worldview. Other times, as in his new book Talking to Strangers, he takes something big and contentious — the death of Sandra Bland, the wrongful conviction of Amanda Knox, the ponzi scheme of Bernie Madoff — and produces insights that challenge conventional wisdom, leaving you wondering how you missed what he saw all along. In either case, once you’ve experienced what Gladwell has to say, you can never see things in quite the same way again. This conversation is an adventure of its own. We cover everything from the secrets behind Gladwell’s creative process to the basic social ingredient that undergirds all of modern society to the story of how an entire field office of the CIA got infiltrated by Cuban spies — and what that teaches us about human nature.So, tune in and be a part of this adventure with us. Books recommendations:Exit, Voice, and Loyalty by Albert HirschmanThe Journalist and the Murderer by Janet Malcolm The Fall of Heaven: The Pahlavis and the Final Days of Imperial Iran by Andrew Scott Cooper Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.comNews comes at you fast. Join us at the end of your day to understand it. Subscribe to Today, ExplainedWe are conducting an audience survey to better serve you. It takes no more than five minutes, and it really helps out the show. Please take our survey hereRegister to attend the live Ezra Klein Show taping in SF Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Sep 30, 2019 • 1h 33min

An inspiring conversation about democracy

Danielle Allen directs Harvard’s Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics. She’s a political theorist, and a philosopher, and the principal investigator of the Democratic Knowledge Project. I talk about democracy a lot on this show, but it’s her life’s work.I've tried a bunch of different descriptions here, but they fail the conversation. I loved this one. Don’t make me cheapen it by describing it. Just download it.References:Talking to Strangers by Danielle Allen"Building a Good Jobs Economy" by Dani Rodrik and Charles SabelBook recommendations:"Politics and the English Language" by George Orwell"What America Would Be Like Without Blacks" by Ralph EllisonMen in Dark Times by Hannah ArendtWant to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.comNews comes at you fast. Join us at the end of your day to understand it. Subscribe to Today, ExplainedWe are conducting an audience survey to better serve you. It takes no more than five minutes, and it really helps out the show. Please take our survey here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Sep 26, 2019 • 1h 33min

Samantha Power’s journey from foreign policy critic to UN ambassador

Samantha Power reported from the killing fields of Bosnia. She watched a genocide that could’ve been stopped years earlier grind on amidst international indifference. What she saw there led to A Problem From Hell, her Pulitzer-prize winning exploration of why the world permits genocide to happen. She emerged as a fierce critic of America’s morally lax foreign policy, a position that led to a friendship with Barack Obama, and then a series of top jobs in his administration, culminating in ambassador to the UN. Power’s new book, The Education of an Idealist, is a memoir of this journey.It is rare that an outspoken critic of the foreign policy establishment becomes so powerful within it. But that’s what makes Power’s career, and the lessons she learned, so interesting. In this conversation we discuss:- What causes ordinary people to participate in genocide- Why policymakers so often fail to respond to genocide before it is too late- Whether foreign policy decisions are too restrained by the overreaches and mistakes of the previous generation- Power’s reflections on Libya, Syria, South Sudan, and more- How the US’s inconsistent moral stances undermine its strategic interests- The blurry line between morality and strategy in foreign policy- How the next administration should handle US relationships with China and Russia.- The case for being “unreasonable,” even as a policymakerAnd much more. This conversation is weedsy at times, but in a way that I think is telling: It’s a window into the agonizing complexity and impossible choices that define foreign policymaking.Book recommendations: Switch by the Heath Brothers The Abandonment of the Jews by David S. WymanA Room of One’s Own by Virginia Woolf Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.comNews comes at you fast. Join us at the end of your day to understand it. Subscribe to Today, ExplainedWe are conducting an audience survey to better serve you. It takes no more than five minutes, and it really helps out the show. Please take our survey here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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