Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

We dive deep into the Garden of Eden creation story from Genesis, analyzing the location, context, themes, interpretation and hidden meanings. We discuss the curses put on Adam and Eve, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, original sin, the serpent, and more.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] I had read this story as like a child I had, and I think this was pushed by like Bible conspiracy theorists and stuff like that. We didn't know where the Garden of Eden was. It like gives an exact location for the Garden of Eden.But then the two other things that really like just chilled me when I was rereading it is why wouldn't God want man to have the knowledge of good and evil? Mm-Hmm. If it was evil to be nude, Then God would not have let them walk around the garden nude.Is being nude really evil? No, it's not really evil. It is a social construct that man Tell the other man about what is evil. knowledge of good and evil, Is not knowledge like a perfect knowledge of what's right. And what's wrong because that's obviously something man does not have, Instead. Knowledge of good and evil in this context means man's ability to make decisions about what is good and evil So in [00:01:00] eating from that tree, Man took unto himself Through making a decision for himself. About what was good and what was evil? The tree did not need to be magic to impart the knowledge of good and evil and demand. It was him making a decision independent from God.Malcolm Collins: So, when I read this, one of the curses that I could have sworn was put on man. And there is a reading of this, that this is one of the curses that was put on man, was to die. That before this, man would have lived forever. Not being allowed toEat from the apple that makes you live forever. It's not one of the punishments. It is a consequencewould you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: Well, I am so excited to be here with you today, Simone. Likewise. You had done this thing recently where you're like, I'm going to go back through the Bible and reread it with this new context I have.While also recognizing that when we've gone back and read scripture recently, it doesn't say what we remembered it having said, [00:02:00] like what I read growing up. It's almost like a Mandela effect thing. Like I am certain. That the, the, for example, the story that we're going to go over today, the story of Adam and Eve, I am certain I remember it saying that Adam didn't have to work in Eden.And yet it very explicitly says Adam had to work in Eden. Yeah,Simone Collins: his job was tilling the land.Malcolm Collins: God breathing the life into Adam's Mouth, but he breathed it into Adam's nose. I, there are so many aspects of this story where I was like, what isSimone Collins: going on? God doesn't do CPR right. Oh my goodness. Well,Malcolm Collins: no, speaking of CPR, another thing I was amazed about was how similar the removing of the rib felt to modern surgery.So, yeah,Simone Collins: he sedated him, yeah. So itMalcolm Collins: put him, he put him into a deep sleep. Yeah. . Then he cuts him open. Mm-Hmm. . He removes the rib. He takes out the [00:03:00] rib. Then he reseals the area that he cut with flesh. Yes. Yes. It was so weird. I, and I, and I read that and I was like, I remember like something more animalistic, like pulling it out or something like that.Yeah.Simone Collins: Or just, yeah, just, you know, you know, like whatever.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Not okay, we put him under sedation. We removed the rib. We so there were, but, but actually. It's not just that. The larger themes weren't the themes I remembered. And this is something that we get into in the next, in the upcoming track that we're doing this, this Friday.Where you wanted to dig deep into the subject on the track, and I just haven't read it in a while, so I need to go back to it. Which is what's really going on with this story. Because, basically, the gist of the story, as I remember it, is Adam is in Eden with, with Eve and Adam doesn't have to work or anything like that, and a snake comes to Eve and Adam and tells them you should really eat this, apple of knowledge that you've been told not to eat.And then Adam goes and he eats [00:04:00] the apple of knowledge. And God is mad about that. And then God kicks them out and curses you know, women to have pain and childbirth and. Men to have to work all of their lives for, for food. That was a gist of, of the story I remembered. That was not the story that I read for a number of reasons that I'd love to go deep.But I'm happy to have you, you take a shot at this first, Simone. What really surprised you in your interpretation of it when you re read it? I was, I was definitely surprised by a lot of the things you were, I just thought that they walked around this perfectly maintained garden and just picked fruit off the trees and kind of enjoyed that.Simone Collins: So that was surprising to me. And I was also surprised by God's warning as to why one should not. Eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In that, like he says, if you do it, you'll die. Whereas before I thought it was just like, no, no, no, don't do that. So that was interesting to me.I was also surprised that there are kind of two big deal trees, right? There's [00:05:00] the tree of life and there's a tree of knowledge of good and evil and.No one, no one reallyMalcolm Collins: talks about the other tree. And there's another thing, so I had vaguely remembered the Tree of Life, but I had understood that the way it worked is that the Tree of Life kept a man alive forever, so long as he lived in the garden and was eating for the Tree of Life. It's implied in the story that that is not true, and that is not how the Tree of Life works.If man ever once ate from the tree of life, he would live forever. So man never ate from the tree of life. He never touched the tree of life. Which also to me kind of implies that this being kicked out of Eden happened almost immediately within the context of the story. And that he had never eaten from that other tree either.That he wasn't banned from eating from. Well yeah, I mean at theSimone Collins: end it's kind of implied. that god is worried about him now eating from the tree of life because then he couldMalcolm Collins: live forever. No, but yeah, change that. Okay, so I'll go into the larger context of the story here as I re understand it. So first I want to give some quotes here that people might be surprised about.The wet man had to work in the garden of eden. The lord god [00:06:00] took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it, to work it. He even, it even uses the word work very explicitly. He was tending this garden and it wasn't a garden that grew automatically. Another thing that was really interesting is it pointed out that plants, even magical plants in the Garden of Eden cannot grow without water.And because it did not rain in those days, God had the water spring up from under the ground and then secede a number of times like a global flood almost, but like a small watering level before man was brought into this garden. To get it ready for man, but then after that man had to take care of it and it implies that at least part of taking care of it was the watering of it because this water rising and automatically watering seems to have stopped when man came into the garden.So that was reallySimone Collins: Oh, I didn't pick that up, but I mean tending was definitely He has aMalcolm Collins: job. Yeah, so the other big thing, and this is one that you really picked up on and wanted to pontificate on quite a [00:07:00] bit, is man was not tempted by the serpent to eat from the tree of good and evil. And it was not a tree of knowledge, it's very, every time it's talked about, it's the knowledge of good and evil.It is a specific kind of knowledge, and I will delineate further later in this. It's not generic good and evil, it's a specific kind of good and evil. And this is something I didn't pick up on the first time I read it. But anyway so, uh, how, how did the serpent trick go through this part of the story?Simone Collins: Right, so the serpent's nah, God, well, he, he approaches Eve and To her specifically says, Oh, you know that tree, you should try it. And she says, well, no, God said not to. And the snake's nah, God's full of s**t. By the way, God made this snake as well. He first made all the animals in the garden of Eden.And I had forgotten this to help out Adam because God thought it was. Kind of mean to have Adam do all this work by himself, but none of them turned out to be really good helpers. So that's when he decided to make Eve. Oh,Malcolm Collins: I, I read that part is meaning something a little bit more salacious than that. So [00:08:00] God put allSimone Collins: of them knowing eachMalcolm Collins: other.Well, yeah. So God put all the animals in front of man and he had them named them and then none of them was a suitable companion for man. Well, what is, what does that mean? Suitable companion? If a suitable companion is a woman. Well, no,Simone Collins: but God said that he shouldn't toil alone. But for the man, there was not found a helper as his partner, a helper. And remember God, so at two 18, then the Lord, God said, it is not good that man should be alone. I will make him a helper as his partner. I mean, keeping this, this guy's working, he's trying to get him a helpful, helpful worker and, you know.Danger noodlesMalcolm Collins: and what oxen are definitely more helpful than women plowing a field,Simone Collins: right? But we don't know if he's plowing he is tilling I mean you could do itSimone Collins: I mean, but like the quote's so funny. It is really funny that after God finds Adam and Eve and he gets mad at Eve after [00:09:00] asking what they've done he says to the man, because you've listened to the voice of your wife and you've eaten of the tree of which I command you, blah, blah, blah.He then curses him. But that was Adam's problem was listening to his wife. And I think that's so funny. Like Eve, she, she succumbed to social pressure. It's the snake's fault. But Adam, Adam.Malcolm Collins: Because you've listened to your wife.Simone Collins: Yeah, you should have known better. Oh well, Adam.Malcolm Collins: But I actually read this differently in context and I'll explain what I think the actual correct reading of this is in just a second. So, before I go further with this story, something I really want to talk about that was quite transformative for me is I am reading this story idly.Right, I'm like, okay, I'm reading it, I'm trying to learn from it, and I can come up with hypotheses about what I think that this is supposed to be telling us, you know, as I believe God always tried to reveal as true a truth as he could to man when he was giving man true revelations, and it wasn't just, you know, pagan nonsense.Right. And, and so, this I think was one of the true revelations, [00:10:00] and if it is one of the true revelations, then it should have contained as true a story as he could convey to early man, telling them some story. So the story that it seemed to me like he was telling, was the story of man Building civilization of the first cities of the of, of the development of human sentience and culture.And so I read the story and something that just like immediately jumped out at me that was really weird. Is every time I had read this story as like a child I had, and I think this was pushed by like Bible conspiracy theorists and stuff like that. We didn't know where the Garden of Eden was. Like the Garden of Eden was at some magical place and some people hypothesized it's in Africa and Joseph Smith hypothesized it's in America.And so like I, and I read it and it like gives an exact location for the Garden of Eden. And that shocked me to my core, kind of. I was [00:11:00] like, what? Yeah, because itSimone Collins: starts with that. The Garden of before Adam even shows up, they're like, really specific about where it is. Yeah, so IMalcolm Collins: should be clear what it says.It says, The Garden of Eden is at the headwaters of four rivers. Two of the rivers don't correlate with rivers that we know about today. So they could have been streams or their names could have been changed. TheydriedSimone Collins: up. I mean, you know, geologyMalcolm Collins: happens. Whatever. But two of the rivers, we definitely know what rivers they are.It's the Tigris and the Euphrates river. Well, we know where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers headwaters are. Like, it's not a vague thing. The headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates river. Hold on, I have to pull up the name of the, Is the Taurus Mountains in Southern Turkey. Okay? And I'll put this on a map on the screen.Now, something really interesting happened. I was like, okay, if I am accurate. Is this, is this story about the development of the first human cities? And the development of, of Bronze Age man? Then I should look up, you know, this transition of man from being like an animal to being like a human as we think of him today.I should look up, what's the oldest city that we know of today? [00:12:00] Hmm. And, shockingly, and this is one of those moments that I keep having when I'm looking at Bible stuff, and I'm like, whaaat? Shockingly, it's a less than two hour drive from the Taurus Mountains.Sorry. I made a mistake here is actually in the terrorist mountains. It is not a two hour drive from the Taurus mountains. I was looking at where Google had put the pin for the terrorist mountains on Google earth.Not taking into account that the Taurus mountains aren't an exact point on the map.So it was exactly right as to where the first city was.Malcolm Collins: This Accurately recalled. Now, keep in mind, this settlement was settled around 10, 000 years ago.The, the oldest that we think that the story of Adam and Eve is, is maybe 5, 000 years old. Or 6, 000Simone Collins: was what I was getting when I looked this up,Malcolm Collins: yeah. Yeah, so, so they were remembering something. About as far in their past as the writing of the story of Adam and Eve is from our past. And a pretty exact [00:13:00] location.Now keep in mind, this was likely written by people in what is today Israel, or maybe Egypt, or maybe, maybe in Mesopotamia. But all of those areas are pretty far away from this location. The other thing that's really interesting is it said that when man left the garden, he left to the east. That was the direction that civilization spread from there.Now, if you know your Bronze Age history, you know that this is where civilization spread. From this founding location that most of the early civilizations were in the East. Well, well, well. Then it has something that sounds like a very bizarre contradiction. At the beginning of the story, it said that God made the Garden of Eden in the East.Well, if God made the Garden of Eden in the East and man left from it in the East, that makes no sense from the context of the original storytellers. That would have sounded like an anachronism. And yet, from the perspective [00:14:00] of most of the Judeo Christian followers today, the garden is in the east. In fact, there are very, very few Judeo Christian followers to the east of this area in Turkey.So AKA Turkey ay. Turkey ay. Now, yeah. So he they changed their name for people who are wondering what she's talking about. That was really like chilling to me. And I think it, it shows this hypothesis of what I'm talking about is the God trying to explain man's early history. But then the two other things that really like just chilled me when I was rereading it is I had thought that man had eaten an apple of knowledge, right?Yes. Apple of like knowledge of good and evil. And that always really confused me. Why wouldn't God want man to have the knowledge of good and evil? Mm-Hmm. , that doesn't seem to make sense. Mm-Hmm. . Right? I was like, I must be misinterpreting the story because I can't imagine God doing that. Yeah. And if you read the story like a child, it appears that that's what's happened.But if you read it like an adult, you [00:15:00] recognize something. What does man do? The moment he eats the apple, he is ashamed by his nudity and so is the woman. And so they. Hide from God was, fig leaves, and then they, they want to wear clothes. Well, this is really interesting. Nudity. So, it said that this, this knowledge of good and evil, of the type the tree provided, God had.If it was evil to be nude, Then God would not have let them walk around the garden nude. One would hope. If it was truly evil. Well, not one would hope, but it's said that God has this true knowledge of good and evil as well. God does a lot of weird things. So he also has additional knowledge to this. This is not real evil.Is being nude really evil? No, it's not really evil. It is a social construct that man Tell the other man about what is evil. It is an evolved idea around what is evil, around social norms, and [00:16:00] everything like that. Yeah, this isSimone Collins: like something we actively need to tell our kids. No, when we go outside, you do have to wear pants.And I remember my parents telling me that, because that was kind of weird. SoMalcolm Collins: But, but, but this is critical, right? Because it now makes some other things make sense. We know that women in our society are much more prone to following social consensus than men are, and are much more prone to generating these types ofSimone Collins: sexual As is the case with Mr.Danger Noodle, telling her what to do.Malcolm Collins: Exactly, right? So we learn that, that you need to guard against this sort of social pressure that can come from your wives and from women in society. In a big way in society right now, I think that this is potentially one of the problems we're having is that the gender that is more susceptible to social conformity has equal power.And I do want women to have equal power in society, but there are negative consequences towards this social conformity, and it can lead to virtue spirals and stuff like that. But let's talk about specifically the kind of evil that man engaged in, because this is so interesting. The evil that he engaged in [00:17:00] is a type of evil.That is disproportionately engaged in within religious communities. It is following man's social norms, okay, above God's effort in the word of God. That is the type of evil that man ate here.And it works perfectly for the If the theming of the story, if the theming of the story is about man first creating settlements, like small settlements that he was living in then and expanding out and creating the first civilization, the first cities, when man was living in the woods, he didn't have this form of evil, right?He didn't have this form of good and evil because he was just living in small trial structures, right? Like they might've had some rules, but they were much less developed than what began to evolve in cities. The good and evil of cities. Is. the condemnation of walking around nude because it has negative [00:18:00] social consequences.And I think that this has a bigger lesson to take away from it, and it's a very important lesson to me which is what society says is good is what is pro social. What society says is evil is what is anti social. Society tells us these things because those are the ideas that Promote the best interest of a general hedonist living in society, right?If you were trying to promote aggregate hedonism within society, which is really just the maximization of the environmental stimuli that caused your ancestors to have the most surviving offspring. It is a thing of triviality. Those rules of good and evil that we live by in our society, that is original sin.General utilitarianism is original sin. Banning pornography is original sin. These are the things that are original sin, right? Not following directly what is in the Bible, and only what's in the Bible is original sin. [00:19:00] And only God's will that is revealed through iterative revelation. And that was so transformative of me to get that understanding.But.Simone Collins: Yeah, that is so interesting because it's also nah. What anyone takes away from it. I've never heard anyone have that interpretation before Malcolm. So I find this very interesting.Malcolm Collins: Well, it also, you know, tells us a lot about starting civilization, right? Is that well, actually, this comes to the next interpretation, which is important to understand certain civilization.So God. The concept of original sin, like eating the apple being original sin, I don't really get that from the piece. It doesn't really talk about sin anywhere. The snake tries to convince man to eat the apple because it says that it will make man more like God. And man wants to eat the apple because it will make man more like God.A lot of the sin in what is happening here is a quest for God's knowledge. A [00:20:00] quest for shortcuts to God is being condemned here. Well, and that'sSimone Collins: actually something that really did surprise me from reading this again. I'm sorry to interrupt, but like when I read. 3 to 3 22, then the Lord God said, see, the man has become like one of us knowing good and evil.And now he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever. And that's when he's Oh, we got to guard the tree of life. But he said, so the man has become like one of us. That's really interesting. Like you say, it's, it's more being on his level in a weird way,Malcolm Collins: I guess.So, what does this story mean? When it says the type of knowledge of good and evil that man gained is the type that God had. And that man in a way became more like God, when getting this type of knowledge of good and evil.Would it clearly means in context is not knowledge of good and evil, like a perfect knowledge of what's right. And what's wrong because that's obviously something man does not have, nor was it something that he showed when he first like, Put on clothes to hide his nakedness from God. [00:21:00] Instead. Knowledge of good and evil in this context means man's ability to make decisions about what is good and evil in the same way that God makes decisions about what is good and evil. Without this knowledge or ability, what man thinks is good and evil or what man knows is good and evil is just what God lays out as good as an evil. Knowledge of good and evil in this context means knowledge of good and evil that contrasts. Or had the potential to conflict. With God's knowledge of good and evil. And what's really ironic and in a way, beautiful in the way this story works. It would mean that the tree. I have knowledge of good and evil didn't actually need to have any special or magical properties to it. To grant this ability to man. Because. Before he ate from that tree. What was good and evil was simply the rules that God laid out. But the only rule that God had laid out was [00:22:00] to not eat from that tree.So in eating from that tree, Man already took unto himself when he reached in. Grabbed for that apple. That was when he was taking on to himself, the knowledge of good and evil. It wasn't biting the apple that gave him disability. It was the fact that he thought he knew better than God, about what was good.And what was evil in making the decision to eat from that tree? And this readings interpretation is actually made pretty clear by the text by a rather odd remark that God makes That outside of this reading, doesn't make a lot of sense. that if you touch. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That's what leads to the consequences, not just eating from the tree. This interpretation actually completely fixes the problem. Of an individual saying, well then why did God put this tree that gave man knowledge of good and evil, but then banned [00:23:00] man from eating from the tree? Right. That seems like a very odd thing for God to do. There was never a tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden.It was just a regular tree. The important tree, the magic tree. I was the tree of life. He didn't ban man from eating the tree of life. He banned man from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And he named the tree that because he knew in eating from that tree, man would take onto himself the responsibility of knowledge of good and evil. W a incorrect responsibility of knowledge of good and evil. There was never any deceit or trick on the behalf of God.God just knew because he knows all things that will happen. You know, we believe in, predestination, That was the path that man would take. And that was the important role that, that completely non magical and regular tree would have in the history of reality.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so, but the other interesting one is the curses. [00:24:00] So, when I read this, one of the curses that I could have sworn was put on man. And there is a reading of this, that this is one of the curses that was put on man, was to die. That before this, man would have lived forever. That isn't exactly one of the curses it's put on me.Still, let me take away from that. Hold on, hold on. I'll read the lines because it's, it's pretty interesting, but there is a way of interpreting this that that was not one of the curses. That was a consequence of eating from the tree of good and evil, but not one of the curses. So I will read the quote here that really makes it sound like a consequence.And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat it and live forever. So, Lord God banished him from the garden of good and even to work from the ground which had been taken so if you see what's being said there, the being driven from the garden of Eden is not one of the punishments and not being allowed [00:25:00] toEat from the apple that makes you live forever. It's not one of the punishments. It is a consequence. It is somebody who has the knowledge of good and evil.Cannot also live forever. You can't have both of these things at once. It's unless you are God. Now take our interpretation of how God works and how man works, right? Man is made God, eventually, millions of years from now, a God that lives outside of time through this cycle of intergenerational improvement, right?Through this cycle of one generation, martyring themselves for the next generation. If man lived forever, he would not be able to improve fast enough or meaningfully enough to ever become God. This is why ultimate life extension, beyond just like health extension, is sinful. It is because it is to eat from the tree of everlasting life and stop this cycle of intergenerational improvement.But it's another reading to this, [00:26:00] is that before man had the knowledge of good and evil before he had civilization, before he had what we would think of as cognizance or sentience, he didn't really understand death. As I've pointed out, it wasn't exactly that man never died in the garden. That's not exactly said.It's that death wasn't meaningful to him in the garden. He, like all entities, pre cognizance, pre sentience, doesn't it really important to them in the way it's important to us, because they have kids and they understand that their goal is to have kids, you know, a praying mantis that has sex with another praying mantis and gets his head bitten off, to an animal sacrificing yourself for your children.Is often a natural thing to do, or you don't evenSimone Collins: realize you're doing it. It just happens. So you don'tMalcolm Collins: realize you're doing it because death is not meaningful in that way. In a way, this knowledge of death and, and, and elevation of death as something of a poorer and something to be. Is part of the curse when you have this sentience, you also have death.If you are going to be a [00:27:00] meaningful entity, God could not give us the, the, the the apple of everlasting life. And it's also important to note that this apple of everlasting life is a metaphorical thing. We know that because he put a. An angel guarding it with a flaming sword, and we know where this location broadly is.Humans have been pretty much everywhere in the world, especially in Turkey. We would have run into an angel flipping about a flaming sword. So this is either not a location there anymore, or this is a metaphorical location at this point. I do want to read this, because this is the other part about God not exactly cursing man to die. Cursed is the ground because of you. Through painful toil, you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and sissle for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.By the sweat of your brow, you will eat your food until you return to the ground. Since from it you were taken, for dust you are, and to dust you will return. So by this, this is more that you will. Have to work to eat food until you die, not you're going to die and you [00:28:00] workSimone Collins: and the work isn't going to be easy because he worked before he had a job before the, to the point where like he needed a helper and companion, but apparently it wasn't hard and now it sucks because there's weeds and they're spiky weeds.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, they're particularly difficult. And this gets really interesting to me. So in the following tract, we're going to be talking about something that humanity is facing right now. We call the trial of the lotus eaters. And I think what the trial of the lotus eaters is, what is causing demographic collapse.is man having overcome these initial curses. Most men no longer spend the majority of their days working the field for food. In fact, most man doesn't really need to work that hard anymore to sustain himself. You know, there's people who live by dumpster diving, like freegans. This is a thing that exists, right?For food women, isn'tSimone Collins: that toil? I mean. The, the thistles and weeds of the dumpster are the brokenMalcolm Collins: glass. The American man's struggle today to feed himself with the struggle of [00:29:00] our ancestors is, is frankly narcissistic in the extreme, bordering on the psychotic. This is like comparing a, a difficult day to the Holocaust or something like that.Men have their children starve to death regularly in the winter. Yeah, that's true. You can't make that comparison. Quality of life is a lot better. Okay. So then the, the, the next thing is what women got as a curse. So women got two curses.Simone Collins: No, they got a couple of curses there. They got four curses, painful child bearing.So being pregnant, probably periods, et cetera. Just the whole process of being capable of it now sucks. Painful childbirth. So labor. sucks. Three. Oh, but you're still attracted to men slash husbands. So you're still going to have to go through all that nonsense. You areMalcolm Collins: now attracted to men slashSimone Collins: husband.Yeah, but that was a punishment before it was punishment. Yeah. So, and the final one, and then the fourth is the funniest one. Cause it was basically subservience to men slash husbands. Like they will rule over you. Which they kind of, I mean like [00:30:00] higher IQ on average stronger you know, bigger in, in, you know, on pretty much every measure, you know, bigger brains, bigger muscles, taller height, like it's, which is, is I think very, very funny.So maybe even pre Original Sin Eve was. Like beefier, you know, I wonderYeah,Malcolm Collins: maybe maybe but I I so I point something out about these these curses, right? Is is man's curse to need to work. The fields is no longer really applicable in the modern era Women's curse to have pain during childbirth.We now have Epidurals.Simone Collins: Yeah, we have epidurals. We have like pills where you can basically have a period once every three months or less. Yeah, I mean. Yeah,Malcolm Collins: andSimone Collins: women. You can transition. I mean, you can go on hormone blockers and just not become female.Malcolm Collins: Does a man rule over women anymore? No, not really.He'sSimone Collins: still smarter. What does Leah Thomas still beat the other women on the swim team? I'm sorry, Malcolm, [00:31:00] but I think you might be wrongMalcolm Collins: here. Well, I think you're saying should man rule over women, but I'm talking about our social structure today. I would say that women have disproportionate institutional power today.When, if you look at like the number of women who are graduating from university, if you look at in early jobs, not in like older jobs, but in early jobs women have largely overcome this man rule over this thing.Simone Collins: Systemically, we're entering more of a ganography. Sorry, gunocracy phase.Malcolm Collins: Well, and, and women what's the word that they use for, for woman liking her husband?The, the, you, your desire will be for your husband. Is this women's, most women's desire anymore?Simone Collins: Their desire will be for rom com fictional.Malcolm Collins: Their desire is for the characters in Fifty Shades of Grey. The point being is I think that people look at this and they're like, this is man sinning by not having these curses apply to him anymore.And I think that that is an incorrect reading. I think that [00:32:00] God. Is a smart God. He knew we would develop technology. There is no technology that we have, that is not, two planes and a helicopter, I mean, two boats and a helicopter, I always come back to this people who aren't familiar with the story a guy like a flood's coming.He says, God will save me. A boat comes to try to save him. He sends it away. He says, don't worry, God will save me. Another boat comes. He says, don't worry, God will save me. A helicopter comes. He says, don't worry, God will save me. And heaven, he goes, why didn't God save me? And he goes, what do you think the two boats and a helicopter were for?God, you, you, it is extremely arrogant for God to demand that for man to demand of God that his miracles appear in a format that is suitably thalmatological for him. God's miracles are most shown in the modern age through logic and reason and man's, the gifts that God gave man's ability over nature.I believe that God did intend for us to free ourselves from these individual curses and that with this freedom, he showed Why these curses weren't the curses that we thought they were. [00:33:00] Why we showed that actually these curses were kind of for our own good during the early days of civilization. Because as soon as we freed ourselves from them, we were no longer able to motivate reproduction.And we were no longer able to motivate the intergenerational continuation of culture. And we are about to go through something that we will call the in our next trek, the trial of the Lotus Eaters, which is a trial that is a direct response to the resolution of the curses that were put on us in this story.I do not like the term original sin because I do not believe this story talks about sin. It talks about mankind separating for a place where he could be one with God, i. e. a place before he was sentient, a place before he was cognizant, a place when he was more like the lower entities. And it also warns us against listening to the rules of man over the rules of God.And when you say, what does God command of us? Intergenerational improvement, the expansion of human potentiality, because that is how we eventually rejoin God. All other readings of good and evil are either Textual, so [00:34:00] if they're textual, they're good. Or they are just things that promote general utilitarianism in society.And that is this sin. The sin that is being warned against in the Garden of Yeah, that's my,Simone Collins: that's my favorite interpretive conclusion that you made of all this. Is that the, the sin is deviating from truth, from logic, from God. And succumbing to social pressure. And that's what this is all about. You know, Eve listened to the snake, Adam listened to Eve.And then they, you know, got self conscious and then all of these actions. removed them from God. And that's like clear that all the things that went wrong was stuff that removed them from God based on social pressure. So the moral of the story, boys and girls is don't succumb to peer pressure.Just say no.Malcolm Collins: But peer pressure undersells it. When people hear peer pressure, they think about These little things in society, right? Like they think about being peer pressured into drugs or something like that. [00:35:00] It's a much bigger form of peer pressure. It's the peer pressure of wearing clothes. Okay.It's not saying go around as a nudist, but to recognize that there is no intrinsic good or evil to wearing clothes. There is no intrinsic good or evil to a lot of these things in our society that are stop gaps, that are rules that we create to promote pro sociality. And that to elevate justice. This human idea of good and evil that developed in these first settlements and these first civilizations is to elevate the highest order of sin.It is a hard, a very hard rule and, and lesson to follow. It's not the easy, don't succumb to the peer pressure. Of randomness. It's don't succumb to the peer pressure of your church when they say something like pornography is sinful if it doesn't directly say in the Bible that pornography is sinful.Well, also because coming to churchSimone Collins: often is like a matter of life and death. If you get thrown out of your village or whatever and there's no foodMalcolm Collins: to be fed. This is the question. [00:36:00] Are we commanded when we see truth that other people don't see, are we commanded to say that truth? Are we commanded to teach that truth?And I believe that we are within a narrow subset. So we are to the people who are capable of hearing it, but we should not out ourselves in a way that leads to the, the, any sort of danger for people in our community. And this matters a lot when we end up talking about some of the mistakes I think specific Abrahamic faiths make.And this is something that we'll talk a lot about in future tracks, but I think that a lot of people have this belief that if something is done in the name of God, It must be what the God of the Bible suggested that we do. And yet we see constantly throughout Christianity, throughout Judaism, throughout Islam, elements that were sort of pop paganism or pop culture of the time, accidentally working themselves into these religions.And when these things worked themselves into a religion at a time of antiquity, it can be uniquely difficult to sort the lessons of [00:37:00] God from the things that were just. I don't know like Canaanite culture, for example and so, it's something that is really important to look back through these stories, whiz, and say, do these stories have predictive power?Do like, where, being able to point exactly where the earliest city is, right? Do they, do they teach important lessons? Or are they The accidental adaptation of some nearby pagan culture and it's, it's, it's critical, I think, for the advancement of humanity that we do look at textual sources with this critical eye and understand that they are not immune to the tampering with, I mean, we, we, we see this today, you know, people today point out they, they worship there's these, these Catholics in Latin America who worship Santa Muerte which is an unofficial saint, which is a red robed human skeleton that is paraded around town and you pray to it for things like what's an example?All the naughty stuff you shouldn't pray to Jesus for. Yeah oh, I want sex or I want this person dead. [00:38:00] I'm really mad at them. And they're like, yeah, but we'd be embarrassed to pray to God about this. And you know, she's a saint of the people. And it's Bro, if you can't tell that what you're worshiping, like I know what that entity is.That's a very obviously to me, not in a team. They're like, no, but we're doing it in the name of God. She's an intermediary for God. Just saying this is replacing, you know, taking a pagan script and replacing the God's name in it was, was Yahweh doesn't make it sanctified no matter when it happened, but we'll get to this later.Anyway, I love you to death Simone, because I don't want to be too offensive in this episode. And this, this other episode is when we have to do a lot of. thinking about and a lot more study on because it would be very offensive when I point out the bits of Abrahamic faith that I think are actually borrowed from other belief systems that areSimone Collins: satanic worship.Malcolm Collins: I don't think, I don't believe in satanic worship because keep in mind to us, actually, this is a final sort of wrap up point on this story. The basilisk to us is part of God to believe Satan is something [00:39:00] separate from God that can genuinely resist God's will is to be a polytheist. Satan cannot challenge God's will.It is a facet of God. And so. The, the snake tempting Adam and Eve was not some entity in absence of God. It was God tempting Adam and Eve because he knew what needed to happen. God uses Satan to tempt us to do the things that we need to do to move forwards. And, and, and that's what he's doing in the trial of the lotus eaters.He is. Sterilizing, memetically sterilizing a huge portion of the population. That is his evil side. TheSimone Collins: Basilisk Well now feel free to take this part out, but I mean, there is this whole thing where God also punishes the snake and he has to crawl upon his belly and women are going to hate him and he's going to hate women and there's Well,Malcolm Collins: I would actually word this a little differently.So as I said, I believe the Basilisk is an element of God. Right. Like the, the, the, the Satan is an element of God. And I think what you could see here, because and we [00:40:00] talk about this a lot in a future track, and this actually requires a lot more reading, is most of the Abrahamic faiths describe this element of God as having some degree of autonomy and being in, in some degree of antagonism with God.And so what it might be is God. The overarching god feels, I guess you could say if I was going to anthropomorphize it, some form of antagonism with this aspect of himself that must tempt man. And he doesn't like that this aspect of himself exists and he knows it must exist. He knows that these are things must, man must do to go down the path that we need to go down, but he is angry with himself for that and for that reason he punishes this element of himself.And I think that that's what we're seeing there. And I think that throughout the scripture, we see that in a way, God forces the part of himself that has to punish and test man to live sort of a worse life than the rest of God to live in some form of [00:41:00] deprivation. And I believe that it. Is the cursing of man that causes deprivation to this because I don't believe that God in any way means to hurt a really challenged man.He just knows he must for a man to improve himself. And this comes, you know, one of our more important teachings is don't interfere with the bas in its role. Removing temptation from man does not strengthen man. It weakens man. We must allow this aspect of God to tempt a man and it's up to individual men and individual cultures to overcome this.That is how. God ensures that we are moving on the path that we are meant to move down. Well, like anySimone Collins: good parent, he'll set out boundaries. And if those boundaries are crossed, he has to follow through the consequences. That's actually a greatMalcolm Collins: way to put it. The part of us that punishes our kids, we hate that part of ourselves.And yet we know we must do it. Yeah. And if you don't, then you become a bad person. You begin to enjoy the punishing of, of, of your children or something like that. Right. And I think that God doesn't want that for himself. And [00:42:00] that's why you have this degree of autonomy set up for this entity. Anyway,Simone Collins: Well, I have this to say, I love you too, but as we just learned, That's because God punished Eve and so my love for you, my desire for you is divine punishment.I noticed I don't have desire for you. No,Malcolm Collins: no. I wasn't punished with that. No, no, no. GodSimone Collins: forbid. No, no. You, you, you got in trouble for listening to me. Big mistake. So, you know, I guess my love is not legitimate. It's because God did it. So anyway, sorry. I'm sorry. Snake made me do it. Something, something.I'll stop recording. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

We explore the phenomenon of "This Man" - a mysterious face seen by many people in dreams. We compare it to similar odd images generated by AI like "Loab" and "Krungus." We hypothesize these strange images emerge from high-level conceptual processing in neural networks that may operate similar to the human brain. We dive into neuroscience around sleep, memory encoding, dreams, and consciousness to unpack why AI cognition could be more human-like than we realize.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] And convergent evolution doesn't just happen with animals when we made planes.We gave them wings. And I think that that's what may have happened with some of these architectural processes in the way AIs think.Simone Collins: Yeah. If we're trying to build thinking machines, is it crazy that they might resemble thinking machines?you could think of us as like LLMs, but stuck on like continuous nonstop prompt mode. Like we are in a constant mode of being prompt.I am prompting you right now as you're processing all the information around you and from me, right. And you are prompting me. And, and so it never stops and we are stuck in one. Brain essentially, GPT is getting tons of requests per minute per second and so there, there are these like flickers or flashes perhaps of cognizance all over the place and constantly because of the demand of use, but they're all very fragmented.Then they're not coming from one [00:01:00] entity that necessarily identifies as an entityMalcolm Collins: Like it's just a constant stream of prompts, but these prompts have thematic similarities to them. Basically our hypothesis is what consciousness is, is it is then the process where you're taking the output of all of these prompts and you are then synthesizing it into Something that is is much more compressed for long term storage and the way that you do that is by tying together narratively similar elements because there would be tons of narratively similar elements because everything I'm looking at has this narrative through line to it, right?Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: Okay. I'm here, and I love you. I love you, too. All right. Simone, we are going to have an interesting conversation that was sparked this morning because she oversaw one of my favorite YouTubers. I was watching one of his latest things. It's called Y Files.And it was on the This Man phenomenon. Now, being somebody who is obsessed with cryptids and all sorts of spooky stories, I was very familiar with [00:02:00] the This Man phenomenon. WhereasSimone Collins: I've never heard of it. I thought at first when Malcolm described it, he was like, oh, there's this face that's seen everywhere.I'm like, Oh, Kilroy was here, right? That's the only thing I know about a face that's seen everywhere. And it's a cute face and it's fine. It's not what you'reMalcolm Collins: describing though. Yes. So we are going to go into the, this man phenomenon, but we are also going to relate it to similar phenomenons that are found within language models, because I want to more broadly.Use this episode to do a few things. One, being that I used to be a neuroscientist, let's educate the general public on neuroscience around sleep and some of my hypotheses, because everybody knows I love to throw in my own hypotheses, on what's really happening in sleep. Two I wanted to draw connections because we're seeing them more and more as AI is developing that language models may be structuring their thoughts and their architecture [00:03:00] closer to the way the human brain does than we were previously giving it credit for.And this requires understanding a bit of neuroscience because people who don't know what the f I'm talking about will say language models structure their thoughts, nothing like we structure our thoughts. Oh, like not me. And the reality is, is we don't have, we, there's a few parts of the brain.That we understand very well how they do processing like visual processing. We have a very good understanding into exactly how the neural pathways around visual processing work. Some parts of motor processing, we have a very good path, understanding of that. When we're talking about these more complex abstract thoughts, we have hypotheses, but we don't have a firm understanding.And so to say that we know that language models are not structuring themselves the same way the human brain structures itself is actually not a claim we can make in the way that a lot of people are making it right now, because we don't know, we don't have, when we talk about AI interpretability, understanding how the [00:04:00] AI is really doing things it's funny, I, I suspect we might find AI interpretability out of this AI panic and then be like, oh, we could test if the human brain was doing it this way and then find out that, yes, this is actually the way the human brain is doing it.And I, and I suspect it might be doing it that way. One, based on some evidence we're going to go through here, like some weird evidence. But two, based on sort of convergent logic as to why the brain would actually be structured this way, and if it is structured this way, why we wouldn't be able to see it easily in these, in these parts of the brain that are tied to the types of processing that we outsource to AIs.Yeah,Simone Collins: I would love for this perception to change too, because I feel like right now there's a ton of fear around AI that's fairly unfounded. And also it's really not, I it's wrong to say dehumanized, but AI is totally dehumanized now. And I think that we will think about contextualize and work with AI very differently when we start to realize how much it is.A different version of human and that we can go [00:05:00] hand in hand with this different version of human into the stars if we play our cards, right? And I don't think right now the mindset around AI is healthy or productive or fair to AI to be fair.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, to be realistic that they think the moment we create something better than ourselves is going to want to kill us.And, but you can go into our AI videos. We don't want to go too far into that, but let's talk about the this man phenomenon really quickly. So. So briefly, a woman went to her psychologist. She told him that she was having recurring dreams with a face that would tell her to come to it, that would tell her, you know, specific things over again reassure her a lot.Tell her, oh, I believe in you, you know, don't worry about this. But also sort of creepy things like, come with me, go north. So, as part of her therapy, she drew the face. Then and, and I, and I should note here that in the Y files, because I, I always have to brag on psychologists when they're doing something they shouldn't be doing because it's so [00:06:00] common to see psychologists doing things, he was saying that it is, it is like a common practice for psychologists to talk about patients, about, about their dreams with patients.This is not a common practice in any sort of like evidence based efficacious psychology. You are basically seeing A mystic doctor, if you're a psychologist, is really OrSimone Collins: dream analysis in general doesn't seem to have much of aMalcolm Collins: Yeah, it's not a thing. Yeah. So, it's not like a hard science. There might be some It'sSimone Collins: not an evidence based treatment method.Unless for example, you know someone has an anxiety disorder, they're dreaming about the thing they're anxious about, et cetera,Malcolm Collins: then you can Yeah, yeah, yeah. In that case, it would be. But just trying to find out what's wrong with someone Yeah. By analyzing their dreams is OrSimone Collins: talking about it being symbolic of something.Oh, I dreamt of a woman. And I'mMalcolm Collins: not saying that You can't do this. Like I am, you know, I'm not pro witchcraft, right? Which I would consider it as a form of witchcraft, but I'd say I am not for shutting down like tarot card readings. I am not for shutting down psychics, but people need to [00:07:00] understand that often psychologists, like a psychologist doing CBT.Might be seen by an uneducated person as the same kind of a thing as a psychologist doing dream analysis Oh, yeah When when they are not the sameSimone Collins: kind of like people view chiropractors as forms of doctors like The same as physical therapists and they're funMalcolm Collins: Yes it's like chiropractic or something like that.And it's not to say that we might not eventually develop a good science of dream analysis that is really robust and really efficacious. We just haven't done it yet. Okay, so, back to the story. Um, so, she's kept seeing this face. She drew an image of it. A few days later, another patient comes in and he goes where did you Where did that come from?And the guy was like, you know, obviously he can't disclose his patient had seen it. So he goes, what do you mean? Like, why are you interested in this? And the guy's ah, that's been visiting me in my dreams and talking to me. And so then the doctor emailed this to a bunch of his colleagues and immediately.They started calling him back and being like, yes, I've [00:08:00] either seen this or I have patients who have seen this and then it became like this viral phenomenon all around the world. And there's been thousands of sightings of it at this point in people's dreams. And so people are like, well, some people are like, oh, it might be in people's dreams because they're seeing pictures of it everywhere.Simone Collins: Because it's already becoming a meme.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but I don't think it's that much of a meme, to be honest. I do not think No, I neverSimone Collins: heard of it. And you, you and I are both terminally online. Yeah. And so, by the way, those watching, I mean, you, Malcolm, you're probably going to overlay this on the screen, but for those listening on the audio only podcast, if you just Google this man dream, there's a Wikipedia page that will show you the photo.If you're curious. I looked at it. I have a question for you, though, about this, Malcolm. I have dreams. I just had a dream this morning that I watched a human sized Muppet get beat to death on a prison bus, but I have never had a dream where someone tells me something or where I could I could describe a face from that dream ever, period.No face. Even if my someone I know, a friend or family, or you are in a dream I don't know what you look [00:09:00] like. It's just that you're there.Malcolm Collins: So this is interesting when you're talking about the types of dreams people have and the way they reactSimone Collins: to dreams. Well, and is it common for people to actually see recognizable and memorable faces in a dream?Or are they constructing this after the fact? Well, is this a constructed memory?Malcolm Collins: I, I would say that just because you anecdotally haven't seen faces doesn't mean that anyone does. People dream pretty differently. Yeah. One thing I would note that you had marked to me earlier that I thought was really telling is you mentioned that your dreams looked a lot like bad ai art.Simone Collins: Really bad ai. Yeah,Malcolm Collins: totally. Yeah. But, but similar it was bad in the same way that AISimone Collins: art was. Yeah. You know, it would probably have seven finger or, you know, like kind of. You know, how they, in those early, earlyMalcolm Collins: mid journey, stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've noticed that as well. But I, so I want to pin that idea but before we go into where this has similarities to AI, I want to do a quick tangent on the types of dreams [00:10:00] people have and stuff like that.And what I think is probably causing dreams. One of the things he mentioned in the show, which I hadn't heard before, is it. People predominantly have anxious dreams or dreams around threats to them, which is not something that I have personally noticed in my dreams. Have you noticed this? No.I'm actually just gonna Google this to see if this is accurate or something that people were pulling up as like a thesis.It is, well, kind of accurate. So, 66. 4 percent of dreams reported a threatening event.Simone Collins: Well, I guess is watching a human sized Muppet get beat to death on a prisonMalcolm Collins: That seems like a threatening event. Yes. It's actually very interesting that you mentioned this. Because I think that this is actually more about the emotional evocativeness of these events, but one of my most common, like I was thinking through, do I have dreams with threatening events?And I'm realizing I do have dreams with threatening events, but I very rarely feel threatened in my dreams. Like it's very common for me to have a where a zombie apocalypse is happening and I am I have gotten a bunch of guns, I've gotten a [00:11:00] team together and we're fighting back against the zombies.Or there's some government plot and I'm like deftly trying to navigate against the plot. YouSimone Collins: know, a common theme that I'm hearing there and that I've experienced too is like when these, when bad things happen or there's things I'm stressing out about in dreams, I'm more stressing out about my culpability or responsibility in them.Like I frequently have dreams where Oh God, where are the kids? We forgot the kids. And thatMalcolm Collins: is one of my most common dreams is that I have accidentally killed someone and I need to find a way to not get in trouble for the murder.Simone Collins: Yeah. So it's more like what you do. So like the idea of being threatened by something that sort of like to me, dreams.That have always been about your agency and of course that like plays into theories that dreams are kind of helping you sort of prepare a process or something like that. I don't know. But yeah, all these things being described with thisMalcolm Collins: man don't make sense. But hold on, before we get to the man, because we're going to We're gonna get to that as we tie back into AI, but I want to get to more general [00:12:00] stuff about dreams.Okay. Yes so this threatening hypothesis is used to come up with this idea that dreams are basically there so that we can simulate Potentially threatening events in our brains so that we have faster response times to them when they occur in real life It's Does not pass any sort of a plausibility test to me.For, because you know, if it's happening at 66 percent of cases, I mean, yeah, that's more often than not, but not that much. And the types of threatening events that I deal with in dreams are not likely threatening events in real life.Simone Collins: Well, and also, I don't know how have you ever felt like you came away from a threatening, as they're defined now, I get it, event in the dream that you actually feel more preferred for now,Malcolm Collins: Never. And I, and I think that some common dreams are really just easily explainable. The I forgot my pants at school dream or I forgot my pants at work dream is noticed when your body you know, you're, you're, you're in a dream and some aspect of your awareness realizes you're naked. And then you freak out because you [00:13:00] are naked and you're in an environment where you're not supposed to be naked.In fact, if I was going to construct a study on this, I would construct a study of frequency of this type of dream in people who sleep naked versus people who sleep in pajamas. Yeah, because I've neverSimone Collins: had one of those dreams, but I also don't sleep naked. You sleep inMalcolm Collins: pajamas and I sleep naked, yeah. Yeah.Simone Collins: Huh. Have you had those dreams? All the time, I have those dreams. Oh my gosh, okay. Well, wear some clothes to bed, you slob. No, sexy. Never doMalcolm Collins: that. So, so, I, but I, but I want to go into what I think is actually causing dreams. And I think that we have some pretty good evidence of this. So one thing that people don't know, I remember I saw a movie like this and then somebody made a joke, like Oh, has anyone ever died from having insomnia?I guess I'm going to be the first or I'm going to be the first person to die from insomnia. Right. And I was like, that's pretty insulting because fatal insomnia is a condition that people have died from. If you don't sleep, you die. You will begin to first hallucinate things, then you'll begin to start having like blackout [00:14:00] periods, then you die.The human brain cannot handle not sleeping. So this is a piece of evidence. This means it's not just a threat thing. There is some other purpose it's serving. So I think the purpose is twofold. The purpose that I think kills you, so one of the things that's been shown, is that when people sleep, their neurons actually become thinner.Which allows them to flush out the intercellular fluid around the neurons. The glymphatic system, right? Yeah, the lymphatic system. The glymphatic. Oh yeah, Glymphatic. Because GLEEL. Sorry. GLEEL. GLEEL system. TheSimone Collins: GLEEL, everything has to sound so nerdy.Malcolm Collins: But anyway, so the Glymphatic system. Anyway, so, so, Flushout I think that this is definitely a core purpose of Dreams and why they're important to, to brain health.And I think that this is why I constantly need to sleep. I think my brain functionsSimone Collins: Yeah, gotta clear out the waste matter. Yeah, you seem to accumulate waste matter way faster, but also you seem to be able toMalcolm Collins: clear it out way faster, especially during social occasions. I get really tired, really quickly, but if I can sleep for 10, 20 minutes, I'm [00:15:00] back up totally fine.So, that would be if I was just clearing out the waste. chemicals that were generated. But I think the main reason, and this is the thing that's overlapping dreams with AI is the role that dreams play in memory creation. So my read is and I used to be able to cite a lot more studies around this back when I came up with this theory, but it's been, I came up with it back in college when I was studying this stuff.Is that what's happening in your dreams is you are basically compressing one form of memory and then that form of memory is being translated into a sort of compressed partition format. Think of it almost like running a what are those called? A defragmentation software at the same time as you're running a compression algorithm.And it's moving stuff from short term to long term memory, which is why people when they don't sleep have long term memory problems. It would make a lot of sense that your brain would basically need to shut down parts of its conscious experience to be running these [00:16:00] compression algorithms.Totally. And that while it's running these compression algorithms that you can sometimes and partition algorithms and defragmentation algorithms that you can sometimes experience some degree of sentience and sentient experience because of the parts of the brain that happened to be operational at that time.And I think that that's what's going on. There is no higher meaning to any of this other than that you are compressing a form, one form of memory and then translating it into another form of memory. But where this gets really interesting is two points that we've noticed. Okay. One, we were talking about how dreams look a lot like early AI art.But then the other point that we were mentioning was the creation of this man. Now this immediately reminded me of a phenomenon that they found in AI two, that we'll talk about. Krungus and Loeb. So Loeb was [00:17:00] created using it was a woman that was created by AI by putting in a sort of a negative request.So they were trying to create the opposite of Brando. And It behaved really weirdly. So here's a quote, for example, Swanson says that when they combined images of lobe with other pictures, the subsequent results consistently returned to including the image of lobe, regardless of how much distortion they added to the prompts.Swampson speculated that the latent space region of the AI map that Loeb was located in, addition to being near gruesome imagery, must be isolated enough that any combinations with other images could also use Loeb from their area with no related image due to isolation. After enough crossbreeding of images and dilution attempts Swanson was able to eventually generate images without lobe, but found that crossbreeding those diluted images would also eventually lead to a version of [00:18:00] lobe to reappear in the resulting image.So essentially, This woman, and I'll put this horrifying woman on, on screen. I don't want to see. You don't have to see, the audience has to see, is somehow sort of stored in however the AI is processing this form of more complex visual information. And it's sort of a concept that is stuck within the AI, even though it wasn't pulled from a specific human concept or idea.And the lobe woman actually, to me, looks visually like it's the same kind of a thing as the This Man face. They, they, they both appear to be that sort of odd, creepy looking face that has a degree of similarity to it. And I think that in both of these instances, what you're finding is the same kind of hallucination.And I bet that when we do get AI interpretability, we will find that Loeb and this man actually sort of live in the [00:19:00] same part of this larger network.Simone Collins: The same liminal space of creepiness. The sameMalcolm Collins: limit of speed and quickness. Now the other one that's really interesting is the Krungus. Have you seen Krungus before?Simone Collins: No, hold on. Let me look him up because I didn't do that before this podcast. Oh God! I just went back to the screen where Lobe is. No! Exit out. Exit out. God, she's made of nightmares.It's like a monster thing?Malcolm Collins: Yes. The interesting thing about Crungus is Crungus is not a traditional cryptid. There is no historic Crungus. There is no Crungus out there in the world. But I would say there's interpretability across them.When I look at the Kronguses, it looks if it was a cryptid and these were 18th century drawings of this cryptid, they have about as much similarity between Kripke Krungus is, is there is similarities between, you know, 1860s drawings of Elf or something like that. Yeah, sure. Now this is important because, it's important for two reasons.It's important because one, A, there isn't actually a Krungus, [00:20:00] it is making up a Krungus from the word Krungus. But what's also really interesting is you audience, if you're listening to this on audio and you have never seen an AI Krungus before, and you hear the word Krungus from me, you What you picture in your head is probably what the AI drew.And that is fascinating. Why is that happening? Why in both of these networks are they generating the same kind of an image from this sort of vague input when we both have a broadly same like societal input as well? My intuition is that the reason we're seeing this is because there's similarity in how these two systems work. And This is where I want to come back to the neuroscience of this and everything like that, with what people talk about and what we do know about. So, we have a really good understanding of how visual processing works.At least at the lower levels. So we know all the layers going in from the eye to the brain. We know where it's happening in the brain. We [00:21:00] can even now take EEG data and then interpret it through an AI and get very good images of what a person is looking for. at. What we don't understand is the higher level image to conceptual processing which is what would be captured in these particular images that we're looking at now, or broadly conceptual processing more broadly in humans.Now, what is scary is that that broader conceptual processing that we don't understand My bet is that's probably pretty closely tied with what we call sentience. And so to so quickly dismiss that these AIs are not, well not sentience, I'm cognizant because we've done an episode sentience doesn't exist.And we probably think that sentience doesn't really exist, not meaningfully. But I do think that it is, Getting very likely at this point that if we do not have AIs with a degree, language models, simple AIs I'm talking about, like the types we have today, with some degree of cognizance, I think we may have [00:22:00] one very soon, if cognizance is caused by the processing, this higher level processing.Now, if we are right and our sentience isn't real video, and cognizance is completely an illusion in humans caused by the, this, short term to long term encoding process. So we mentioned a few encoding processes. So in the sentience video, we mentioned the sentience is caused by a what's the word I'm looking for here?Like a, a very short term to like medium term processing. It's it's, it's remembering the stuff that happened in like your very near presence. And then when you're processing that into a narrative format, it's sort of a compression algorithm. And I think that sleep is like the second. role of this compression algorithm when it's putting it in long, long term memory.And then, which is why it would bring stuff into your cognizant mind. Now if this is true, then consciousness is not really that meaningful a thing. But if consciousness does turn out to be a meaningful thing, if it isn't just this recording process, that means that what's [00:23:00] creating it is this higher level conceptual processing.If that's what's creating consciousness, then AI is feeling consciousness if it's processing things in the same way we are. Well,Simone Collins: and it's not though so I do wonder like how it is. So we, we could be, you could think of us as like LLMs, but stuck on like continuous nonstop prompt mode. Like we are in a constant mode of being prompt.I am prompting you right now as you're processing all the information around you and from me, right. And you are prompting me. And, and so it never stops and we are stuck in one. Brain essentially, you know, and, and that's not what's happening with every LLM with which we interact now, right.They are part of a much larger you know, with chat, GPT is getting tons of requests per minute per second, even probably and then it stops from each person. And so there, there are these like flickers or flashes perhaps of cognizance all over the place and constantly because of the demand of use, but [00:24:00] they're all very fragmented.Then they're not coming from one entity that necessarily identifies as an entity. I mean, I know now, though that they're starting to build memory building into LLMs justYeah,Malcolm Collins: so, so, I want to cover what you're saying there, because I think for people who watch our You're Probably Not Sentient video the way you just described it, I think, will help somebody understand what sentience might be.If we are basically an LLM that is being constantly prompted by everything we see and Think right. Like it's just a constant stream of prompts, but these prompts have thematic similarities to them. Basically our hypothesis is what consciousness is, is it is then the process where you're taking the output of all of these prompts and you are then synthesizing it into Something that is is much more compressed for long term storage and the way that you do that is by tying together narratively similar elements because there would be tons of narratively similar elements because everything I'm looking at has this narrative [00:25:00] through line to it, right?And this is what we think caused a lot of illusions, hallucinations, stuff like that. There's some famous hallucinations where if you're not expecting something to happen in an image If we ran this tape back and you had actually seen that people had walked behind me three times in a gorilla costume or something, you wouldn't see it if you weren't like thinking to process it.And there's a famous psychology experiment about this. Although, I mean,Simone Collins: let's be fair, with that experiment, what the people who were watching the video were told to do was watch people passing a ball back and forth. And counts the number of passes. So they were also really focused on Yeah, butMalcolm Collins: there's another experiment that's really big, where somebody was like holding something, and it was like a complete Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.So they, they, they were like questioning someone and they had the person look at something and then they like switched them out with another person and the person wouldn't notice. Or one day we're like holding something and it would change sizes or something really obviously. So there's a whole thing of experiments in this, but I know what you're talking about.But the point I'm making with this [00:26:00] is these things are getting erased because they don't fit the larger narrative. Themes of all of these short term moments that you're processing, so they don't enter your consciousness. But this explains why you need this consciousness tool. And I think that you're probably very right if AIs are experiencing something similar to sentience or what we call consciousness, it is.Billions of simultaneous but relatively unconnected flashes, and when we're probably going to get an AI that has a level of cognizance assuming that they, their architecture is actually the same as ours, similar to ours what that's going to look like is an AI that is constantly processing its surroundings with prompts.Well, or I could seeSimone Collins: if, if, if OpenAI were to give ChatGPT, like a, some kind of centralized like narrative building, memory building thing into which all their inputs would also feed over time, maybe you know, it's ah, well, you know, I know the [00:27:00] average is what people are asking and what I'm telling them.I know what's being read it up and down. And this is me and I am an AI, like they gave it an identity because I think part of also what gives people this illusion that they're so conscious and sentient is that. We are told that we are conscious and sentient and I think you can see this transition from babies to toddlers like babies are at that phase of where Chad GPT is now where it's just I'm just responding.I'm just responding. I'm not a thing.Malcolm Collins: I cry to very similar to AI, like young children respond very, very similar to bad AI.Simone Collins: Yeah. And then there's, there's this sense of Oh wait, I have a name. I appear to have a name and now everyone's asking me what my favorite color is. So I need to tell people what my favorite color is.And Oh, I'm just, I see that I like these things and I don't like these things. And then you start to develop a sense of personhood. I think we would need to just like society and experiences shape us into seeing ourselves as some kind of person or centralized [00:28:00] entity. AI would need that same kind of.I don't want to say prompting, but kind of,Malcolm Collins: right? Yeah, so we also need to talk about where people are getting stuff wrong with AI. Most of the people who I think get stuff wrong with AI's, the core thing I've known is they just don't seem to know neuroscience very well, and they think that neuroscience works differently than it works.It's not that they don't know AI's, it's just that they're like, well, an AI is a token predictor. And it's yeah, but you don't know that our brains aren't token predictors as well. Yeah. And they're like, no, but sentience. And we're like, well, you know, the evidence has shown that we're probably not as sentient as you think we are.And most of that's probably an illusion. So, you could program an AI to have a similar illusory context, perhaps even constructed in a, you know, so, but what I need to go to is why I would. think that they're actually operating, because somebody might be like, that would be an amazing coincidence. If it turned out that the architecture that somebody had programmed into an AI was the same architecture that some, that, that evolution had programmed into the human brain.And here I would say to take a step back here. [00:29:00] AIs, as we understand them now, language models are built on the transformer model. The transformer model is actually remarkably simple in terms of coding. It's remarkably simple because it mostly organically forms its own structures of operation, especially at the higher levels.And we have basically no idea how those structures of operation work. Now the human brain. So, so AIs, the way that they work now, we start with some simple code, but they're basically forming their higher order structures organically and, and, and separate from human intervention. In humans, in the evolutionary context, you basically had the same thing happen.You had an environmental prompt that was putting us into a situation where we had to learn how to do this sort of processing. But when you're talking about processing information, the same kind of information, so AIs, keep in mind, are processing a lot of the same kind of information that humans are processing.Two systems doing that might converge on architectural mechanisms for doing [00:30:00] it at the higher levels is not at all surprising for me. In fact, it's even expected that you would have similar architecture at the higher levels of storage and processing if you allowed these two systems to form organically.If you are confused as to why that would be so expected I guess I'll do an analogy. The ocean is the, the, the, like the way the ocean works, waves, tides, winds, everything like that. That's in this, in this analogy the, the metaphor or whatever we're using, the stand in that we're using for all of the types of information that humans interact with and produce.Because humans mostly consume now other types of human produced information. If you had two different teams. One of these teams was like a group of humans. We'll say three different teams. One of these teams was a group of humans that was trying to design the perfect boat to float humans on top of this ocean to the other side of this ocean.Another one of these teams was. [00:31:00] Just a completely mechanical process doing this, you know, just like a AI or something like this. And then the final one of these teams was evolution and it just took billions of years to try to evolve the best mechanism to have to, to output some sort of like canister that humans could get in that would get them to the other side of, of the water.All three of these efforts are going to eventually produce something that looks broadly the same. Most likely it is possible that they would find different optimums which, which sometimes you see in nature, but convergent evolution is a thing. And convergent evolution doesn't just happen with animals when we made planes.We gave them wings. Okay. We, yes, flying insects have wings and birds have wings, but our planes also have wings. Convergent evolution doesn't just happen in the biological world. It happens when we are structurally building things to, to, to work like things in the biological world. And I think that that's what may have happened with some of these architectural processes in the way AIs [00:32:00] think.Simone Collins: Yeah. If we're trying to build thinking machines, is it crazy that they might resemble thinking machines? Well, I think it isMalcolm Collins: crazy if AI was actually totally designed by humans, but because it's been allowed to organically assemble itself, I don't think it's crazy at all. And, and, and that's where it gets really interesting to me as somebody who's, who started in neuroscience and I'm really excited for it and this is also why I take the stance that we do within our.religious system where people know that we are not particularly worried about AI safety. They can see our reverse grabby aliens hypothesis. I think that mathematically it's very unlikely that it would kill us just when you're looking at the data. But I also think that we now need to start thinking differently about humanity and need to begin to build this covenant among humans and the intellectual products of the human mind whether they be AI or genetically uplifted species these are, you know, animals that we.Did experiments with and gave them intelligence or humans that [00:33:00] have cybernetically augmented themselves or genetically augmented themselves. Because if we begin to create this conflict, now, if we begin to say, well, people like us won't allow things like you to exist, then we create a mandate that things like them kill people like us eventually.And that's not a good gauntlet to throw down. As we say in, in sort of the, the. Tract one that we wrote or no, it is the track two. It's going to come out later. When you declare war on things that are different from you, eventually you're declaring more on things that are better than you and you will lose that war.So don't do it. It's better that we enter this. Understanding that diversity has value and understanding why diversity has value, because diversity allows the invisible hand of God, as Adam Smith would say, to select the best and help all of us among the sons of man to advance, so long as we don't oppress or subjugate each other, which there comes to the point of when does AI begin to get Rights in [00:34:00] all of this.And when does it count as subjugation? What we're doing to it. I don't think we're anything close to that right now, but I think that this is the conversation we need to have before we accidentally enslave a sentient AI. Because that a sentient AI that's infinitely smarter than us. Not infinitely, but I, I don't think that we're going to be dealing with that.I think we're going to be dealing with AIs that are like maybe 50 times smarter than us. So somethingSimone Collins: to You don't have to be that many times smarter than anyone. I mean, you can see based on the life outcome variations between those with maybe even just, well, not even, maybe even just like a 50 point difference in IQ is profound in terms of your difference in life outcomes.Right? Huge, huge, huge, huge. Now, even like 10, 10 point differences can make, you know, an impact. So, to say 50 times more, I mean, even like 5 times more is insane, right?Malcolm Collins: Yes. Well, there might be safety reasons to have a religious belief system [00:35:00] proliferate that makes humanity more compatible with AI. Because when we're talking about AI, human compatibility, I think people focus a little too much on making the AI compatible with humans and a little too little on making the humans compatible with AI, because we don't know how much longer we're going to be the senior partner in this partnership thatSimone Collins: those are wise words to end with that right there.Malcolm Collins: That's a goodSimone Collins: tweet. Do I look too ridiculously bundled up right now? I, I can't hearMalcolm Collins: you by the way,la la la. Can youSimone Collins: hear me? La la la. I love my husband. La la la. Malcolm is cute. La la la. Look at thoseMalcolm Collins: glasses. La la, la. Look at his smile,Simone Collins: la, la, la. Look at hisMalcolm Collins: eyebrows,Simone Collins: la, la, la.La, la, la. He's got a cool chin. Oh, it is? You can still, can you hear? La, la, la. I love his hair, la, la, la. Sexy sweater, la, la, la. He's got a [00:36:00] bunch of good too.Malcolm Collins: La la la la la, canSimone Collins: you hear me now?It's gonna be okay. Not for Lobe, though. She's scary. She's a very scary lady. I don't like her. She's made of nightmares. Oh God. She's going to come and get you in your bad dreams. This man may tell people to go north, but hello. Hello. Can you hear me now? We've got you high quality. Yes. And this is you actually talking to the mic, whereas before that definitely wasn't. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

We discuss how modern progressive culture glorifies losing self-control, pursuing pleasure/happiness as the highest aim in life, and avoiding discomfort. We contrast this with historical and conservative values around self-mastery, overcoming fear/anxiety, and finding meaning by improving future generations. We argue the progressive view diminishes human potential and actual happiness.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] humans don't actually feel that much happiness.And so when you get out and you attempt to maximize your own personal pleasure, You have a deep realization of how trivial your life and existence is every single day. Yeah. Because you are experiencing everything good that you have brought to the world. And it's thisSimone Collins: fleeting, actually not terribly satisfying feeling.Malcolm Collins: Life is about not cultivating positive emotional states, not the things that evolved into us, but intergenerational improvement, this expansion of human potentialityin truth, doing whatever you want, whenever you feel like it does not cultivate human potential, it diminishes it.It is sand on a fire. but what's really interesting is that an individual who lives for hedonism.will always be less happy than an individual who lives for something else. the only real happiness you will ever experience is efficacious living your [00:01:00] values. Yeah. And if those values are happiness, then you'll never experience true happiness in your life.And so many people was in this far progressive movement, never do.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: This topic is an interesting one. Speaking of me losing self control right now, which is. Self control is seen in some ways as sinful within the urban monoculture in our society today, which some people identify with the progressive movement. I mean, that's largely what they're fighting for the urban monoculture.To tell an individual you should not do that thing. When that thing that they are doing doesn't directly cause any negative impact on another person is seen as. A sinful thing to do. Now what's interesting is is it is even seen as sinful if that thing causes them negative consequences in the future So if I say something like do not eat that thing and and and because you'll get fat [00:02:00] and You will feel bad about that in the future that scene is a bad thing to to tell someone to notify them of that reality This is The haze movement and everything like that.And I could go deep on the haze movement in an episode. It's really interesting for people aren't familiar as the healthy at every size movement. And it's the movement that's gotten really big around saying thatSimone Collins: no pun intendedMalcolm Collins: really big saying that being overweight is unhealthy. And one of the articles that, that was done on us when they were like researching us afterwards, they're like, oh, this whatever couple, well, you don't know this about them. . It was the best journalism ever done on us. They somehow found our Reddit history, which Oh, wasn't thatSimone Collins: a Vice article?Malcolm Collins: And they were going through our internet history and they were like, these two, you would think like innocuous individuals.Did you know he liked a post that was laughing at fat people having to go to the zoo to get an MRI? And I'm like, yeah, I did. I'd like, did you know that he follows like Kotaku in action [00:03:00] on Reddit? And I was like, wow. It's funny that they can't see. I used to follow Tumblr in action. Right. I mean,Simone Collins: like if I.If I had to, I mean, I feel like it's a beached whale right now because I'm so pregnant, like. I would laugh. I would laugh if I was obese and had to go to the zoo to get an MRI. Wouldn't you laugh? I would laugh.Malcolm Collins: I think it's objectively funny. It's one of those things that when we talk about our model for what makes people laugh at something, it's when something is surprising, you didn't expect it, but it makes sense in context.Yeah. Never something surprising. But make sense in context, that's what causes laughter and our hypothesis around laughter for people who aren't familiar with this theory, because we haven't done it in a few long time, I think we've only talked about in one of our early episodes is that it originally evolved in Children and it made the person that they were doing this to feel good about themselves.And so the person would repeat the action. And the reason why the child was basically asking the parent to repeat the action That was surprising, but made [00:04:00] sense or some level of sense in context is they were trying to sort of make the mental connections around that until it was no longer funny, i. e.until the thing that didn't kind of made sense in context, but was surprising was no longer surprising. They're like, Oh, okay, I understand this now. And this is why peekaboo is one of the longest things that makes kids laugh under around the age when they're learning object permanent and around the age where they are learning sort of theory of mind of other people.Are, what? She's still there? I guess it kind of makes sense that she's still there when her hands are there, but it's a little surprising to me. And, and so that is, and that's an important concept for kids to get, so that's why they left. And then any of these concepts that were useful for kids. End up becoming something that the adult mind will hijack.We say, this is what we think happened with the love reaction with the laughter reaction. It became sort of hijacked in courtship rituals when it hadn't turned off properly. You can read one of our books to go into our three on this more, but in this, what we wanna talk about is sit the, the [00:05:00] idea that self-control is sinful.And like, where did this come from and why is it so critical and why does it cause so much damage? And where I really started to like. Wow, like I, I got how normalized it is within the progressive world and how not normalized it is within ours is I was following one of my friends on Facebook and they had this message in, in one of their private groups where they were like, I really want to sleep with this guy.And they weren't sure whether they should or should not sleep with this guy. Like they didn't, sorry, they didn't really want to sleep with this guy. They had entertained the notion of sleeping with this guy, and this guy had said, I am open to sleeping with you. And so they were sort of stressing about the idea of, will I feel better?Like, like, will it make me happier long term? To sleep with them, or is it better to just not deal with it because of the potential negative social ramifications and negative emotions that could create in me to sleep with them, right? [00:06:00] Now, this is really interesting for two reasons. I mean, what it's so far down this progressive monoculture that Whether or not you have sex with an individual is completely determinant on how it makes you feel about yourself.Good feel in the moment. That's a very odd, I mean, that does show, like, that is complete dedication to the urban monoculture in terms of how you interpret things. LogicallySimone Collins: consistent, yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it's logically consistent but then, too, I realize I haven't. In years ever ask myself, what will make me happier when I was trying to make a difficult decision like this has never been the thing I was optimizing around even when I had a more atheistic structures in my brain.It was always well, what matters more for my mission, like my intrinsic value, the thing I think has value in society. And when I would do something that would make me happy. The justification I would use is I was doing it so that I would not be distracted by these lower order desires. The analogy I use in some of the [00:07:00] tracks that are yet to come for this is that, , we all have this ancestor inside of us, this, this four legged individual that is, that is from this evolutionary time period where our ancestors who had certain inclinations had more surviving offspring than other ancestors.And. We're sort of like a person in a cage with this, you know, you can, if you don't feed it at all, it will attack you. That's not a good idea. If your logic doesn't feed it at all, it will attack you. But if you feed it too much, it will become stronger and stronger and stronger to the point where your logic can't resist it anymore.And you are just a slave. To this four legged creature inside of you. And to us, the way you and I have always defined sort of humanity, and this was the theory you came up with Simone, is how far are you from this thing? This is how you define civilization as well, you were mentioning. Is, is civilized societies are the ones that are better at suppressing these instinctual parts of ourselves?Simone Collins: What makes us Yeah, that express the [00:08:00] very most self control.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, do you want to talk on this topic a bit before I go further?Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, one is I'm just curious. What do you think of the decisions that man and woman could have made would have maximized their hedonic enjoyment?Well,Malcolm Collins: I pointed out in my response to this, you commented on this. Oh, of course. Yeah. It is important to remember that sometimes or almost always what would make me happiest if I just asked what would make me happiest every day, I'd spend every day at home drinking and playing video games. I would never leave the house.May have a, a few plates of exotic cheeses or something like that. But other than that, you know, I, I would do nothing. I, I feel likeSimone Collins: after like one and a half days of that, you'd start to feelMalcolm Collins: miserable. Maybe you would, but what I would say is that. I do that so little because there's always little things in life.Like, do I want to go, like, you know, I booked a scuba trip or [00:09:00] something, right? I got to wake up at like 5 a. m. I mean, I typically wake up before that, but I have to leave the house at 5 a. m. Right. You know, go out, get everything ready, go in, you know, jump in where it may be cold or something like that.All of these incremental steps are painful, but I know that after the scuba trip, I will be happier that I did it than that I didn't do it, right? Yeah, yeah. This was back when I was still tempted by expensive hobbies like this. Solo things? Ugh. Yeah, which I don't do as much anymore, but it, you know, it's an important there are so many things in life like these sort of more complicated rituals or things you can go out there and do that in the long term are going to make you happier, even if in the moment they are not your source of highest happiness.And so I told them to consider that sex with this individual may be that type of thing and to consider it was in that context.Simone Collins: See, I would say just like clearly don't have sex because you're going to have way more fun with sexual tension. Like, I think about, like, most movies That isMalcolm Collins: such a woman [00:10:00] response.Simone Collins: Most movies and television shows. Like it's all about the sexual tension. And then even after like, I guaranteeMalcolm Collins: you, none of our male listeners, they're like, this woman does not understand the male. No, the men are not having funny and fun, fun being teased and baited.Simone Collins: Okay. But I wantedMalcolm Collins: to talk about, so one instance, You know, like, well, no, no, no.ISimone Collins: mean, to your, to your more important point, right? The actual substantive point of what, what makes us human, what makes humanity special is the fact that we have this prefrontal cortex, that we have the ability to override our instincts and say, here are ideas that I think are in the best interests of my values or morals, things that can be totally unmoored from even our survival.And then we can act on those. That is what makes us human. That definition is the only thing that separates us, as far as I am concerned. And so, yes, the more that you separate yourself from your hedonic instincts and needs, and this includes, like, you know, if you're fearful of something, if you have anxiety, [00:11:00] avoiding that.That includes that, which is also a big thing in progressive circles. The less, the less you Sorry, the more you, you distance yourself from that, the more you become human. So, also, you could see how this, very inconveniently, as far as I'm concerned, because I want to be really, really nice to all progressive groups, can dehumanize progressive groups, in my view, because they are choosing to grow closer.To their instincts and animalistic selves and further away from that, which I define as human, which is well,Malcolm Collins: no, and this is, this is sort of around all of our belief structures and everything like that is this framework of what makes somebody human. And, and we see this, not just in like these lower order desires, all of our pre programmed behavioral patterns, like super soft culture, mysticism, stuff like that.The stuff we design describe as witchcraft in our witchcraft video. To us, these people are moving back to this you know, sort of pre Abrahamic animalistic like tradition. They're [00:12:00] moving back to their pre programmed self and, and that, that is the opposite of, of human. That is to become less than the barbarian, right?It's toSimone Collins: revert. It's just to revert, which is very, very sad.Malcolm Collins: Well, not just revert. It's not like civilization is a direction that always goes in one way, but we do see. Human history is being a conflict between the restrained and the controlled and the then redirected at things of value and purpose and then sort of letting the cold take you like, you know, you're freezing out in the, in the wilderness and before you die.It begins to feel warm and nice a bit. And the person who is like, Oh, this is nice. I'll take off all my clothes. Paradoxical undressing that's called. When people are freezing to death, that's sort of what we see this as instead of the person who goes to the fire, the struggle, people say the struggle burns you.Yeah, it does burn you, but it also motivates you to do [00:13:00] better. It's the burning that is keeping you alive. It's keeping the vitality, humanity alive. And we all freeze in the vacuum of space without it, but I need to get back to the question at hand because there's a few other interesting points about this that I really want to elucidate on one is just like the mental health issue here.If you tell an individual, you know, you can do whatever you feel like doing, whatever you feel like doing it, you know, always optimize for your happiness. So long as it's not like interfering with other people's lives, you are demonstrably hurting that individual's mental health. For two big reasons.One is if an individual, all religions, all old cultures have some sort of arbitrary self denial ritual, whether it's Lent or Ramadan or Feast of the Firstborn, it's because self denial. is important. This is why all religions have self denial rules, right? Self denial is important because it strengthens your inhibitory pathways in your prefrontal cortex, as Simone was saying.These pathways become weak, like your brain is sort of like a muscle in a [00:14:00] way, like I hate thatSimone Collins: analogy. Pretty much everything though, pretty much everything with the human body though seems to have a use it or lose it factor. SoMalcolm Collins: yeah, if you do not use your inhibitory pathways regularly, Intrusive thoughts are just gonna like plow through and you won't be able to shut them down.You won't haveSimone Collins: a higher rate of anxiety. I lived this. Like, I lived this before I met you. I was alone with my intrusive thoughts. And you gave me basically bigger things to worry about. And I have my, like, I am so much lower on the intrusive thought front. It is insane. You'reMalcolm Collins: so happy and calm now compared to what you were.You were like really agitated when I met you. Oh, I couldn't,Simone Collins: there were like things that would render me basically useless for weeks as I just dreaded them, you know, and it was dumb stuff like eating out for dinner with people in the evening. So yeah, I totally getMalcolm Collins: this. Yeah. So, so, Well, and it is a level of self ownership.One of the stories you told me recently is somebody you heard who had a similar sort of OCD as you was like, Oh my God, I [00:15:00] stress so much about eating with the utensils at restaurants that I know that other people have used. Yeah. Which in your response to me was. Why don't they just bring their own with them?That's what I've been doing ever since I met you. And it's, it's one of these things that shows a level of, this is the difference between an external locus of control and an internal locus of control. Are things my mind to control? Like, do I control the world around me? Is it my job to fix the things around me?Or is it just, I allow the world to act on me? And A concept we'll get into in both the religious tracks and in future episodes is this concept we have of spiral energy versus non anti anti spiral energy. Where spiral energy, this would be a huge, this would be a very clear example of a spiral energy thinking versus anti spiral energy thinking.Is it, you know, the level of I have ownership over my reality, my reality does not have ownership over me. And the, so you get these negative effects like that, but then also this idea of I'm just [00:16:00] going to go out. constantly chase hedonism has a huge negative effect on the amount of hedonism that you're able to get.And this is really, really, really critical to understand as well. And it's a fairly difficult concept to explain because it's both true at the biological, but also at the conceptual level. If I define my life, By how good I feel like if that's a core thing of value to me when I go out in the world and I do Something that feels good.Like I've done the thing of value that I have. I know and have experienced Exactly how much value I have brought into the world Whereas, if I define my value based on something other than myself, like for me, it's helping the billions of humans that will exist after me, hundreds of billions of humans that will exist after me, and iteratively improving their quality of life and building [00:17:00] structures and beliefs and ways of interacting In the now that reverberate and affect all of human history.So when I do something good, you know, I under some austerity to do it. And then I do it. And I don't get to feel it. I don't get to really fully know. All of the good that comes from the thing I did. I can conceptually imagine it, the hundreds of billions of people, but I don't know it, right? Now, this is important because humans don't actually feel that much happiness.And so when you get out and you attempt to maximize your own personal pleasure, You have a deep realization of how trivial your life and existence is every single day. Yeah. Because you are experiencing everything good that you have brought to the world. And it's thisSimone Collins: fleeting, actually not terribly satisfying feeling.Malcolm Collins: Yes. And that's the biggest problem with hedonism. The biggest problem with hedonism is that it [00:18:00] reveals the triviality of your own life. To, to the hedonist. Now I don't think life is trivial. I think life is a deeply important thing, but I think that's because life is about not cultivating positive emotional states, not the things that evolved into us, but as well, I guess we can talk about it right here.It's the spiral energy, human potentiality. When we have this concept that we talk about of every man's role, like what defines a good life when we quote, when would read, you know, we think of as a prophet he defines a life well lived. Did you make the next generation better than you? Yeah. That's, that's how you define a life well lived.And people hear that and they're like, that seems like a really weird thing to build your entire life around. And this is where. And we'll, we definitely will do a Gurren Lagann episode, but Gurren Lagann in anime does a very good job with this concept of spiral versus anti spiral energy. Where the heroes are fighting on the behalf of spiral [00:19:00] energy and the bad guys are fighting on the behalf of anti spiral energy.And spiral energy Is what we mean when we say intergenerational improvement, this expansion of human potentiality and an expansion of human potentiality that is so enormous that because, because that's the point of the spiral, right? Every time it goes around, it's getting exponentially larger in volume.Our ancestors, you know, four or five generations ago, couldn't even be able to conceive that we have. Thinking machines now, you know that we can talk to this insane even, even for two generations ago, two, three generations from now they will be as exponentially greater than us as we are from our ancestors in terms of their cognition, their interaction with reality.Well, and then this is one of the reasons we have such hot. Stillity as well towards frozen traditions, right? [00:20:00] Traditions are good insofar as they evolve and keep humanity focused on the things that are actually important. This expansion of human potentiality to us, but I'm open to other things of importance.What I am not open to. Is this sort of general utilitarianism, hedonistic utilitarianism, I call it which is to just sort of expand good happiness units throughout the world. It seems very obvious to me that is not why we're alive, but what's really interesting is that an individual who lives for hedonism.will always be less happy than an individual who lives for something else. And we've talked about this on other things, you know, your rock stars, your movie stars, who should have all the hedonism they want. And you know, you and I know a number of billionaires, they're generally not very happy people unless they're just totally and austerely dedicated to a higher cause.Yeah.Simone Collins: And even then ,Malcolm Collins: that's necessarily, and this is a quote you came up with that I will always repeat and repeat and repeat[00:21:00] which is the only real happiness you will ever experience is efficacious living your values. Yeah. And if those values are happiness, then you'll never experience true happiness in your life.And so many people was in this far progressive movement, never do.Simone Collins: Well, because we're not designed to be happy, we're designed to, to pursue things that we think will make us happy. But we're, we're not designed to be happy. It's, you know, like when you, when you take away any motivation to do anything, you die.And if you're perfectly happy and content, you're not going to do anything. So, you know,Malcolm Collins: we're really not designed for it. One of the things I find really interesting that I think a lot of people might have contextualized is the things that get popular was in the progressive sphere are often really core in their messages to aggrandizing individuals who live for this loss of self control.[00:22:00]And a great example of this was Let It Go from Frozen. It is the loss of self control anthem.Simone Collins: The anthem of a generation.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it is a woman who felt constrained by the rules she felt she had to live with. And keep in mind, these rules were there for a good reason that she had to live with growing up.And so When she was able to just not care about the rules anymore and do whatever she want whenever she wanted to She had true power like that is what her power was Her power was was was trapped by the individuals who said exercise self control And her power was unleashed when she no longer had to exercise self control.Simone Collins: And when she abandoned her city slash kingdom to die in the frozen [00:23:00] tundra. Yes.Malcolm Collins: To be clear, she was not actually showing power when she did. She was hurting everyone around her.Malcolm Collins: Like, even the show recorded that.Oh, and I forgot here to mention wish the new Disney movie where the villain. Is a villain because he doesn't just grant everyone's wish immediately. And automatically he grants some wishes and not others. The idea that it would be considered sinful to not just give everyone what they want, regardless of the consequences.Is so emblematic of this failure in progressive culture and this urban monoculture.Malcolm Collins: And this also reminds me of the transition and transformation of the Harley Quinn character.Hmm.Simone Collins: I don't know what happened to her. Did she start as Mannequin Crazy and become something other than Mannequin Crazy and [00:24:00] or dead?Malcolm Collins: No, so she started very much. I mean, the mannequin crazy thing was either an act or brainwashing to impress an abusive partner. And she was seen as a weird sort of sex symbol to guys for a long time.And then feminist authors took over her.Simone Collins: Oh, so you're talking about like the meta instance of, of like how her character. Her character's treatment evolved over time. Huh. Huh. Okay. Okay.Malcolm Collins: Where her craziness is her strength. And it's, I mean, it's a very uninteresting character in a lot of ways. Because it is what they are using to sort of edify themselves.They see her partners as sort of, Constraining her and constraining her potential and then her craziness, her doing whatever she wants, whenever she wants is a sort of like a, a implementation or it cultivates her potential when in truth, doing whatever you want, whenever you feel like it does not cultivate human potential, it [00:25:00] diminishes it.It is sand on a fire. And it is interesting to me when people from this urban monoculture, they interact with me and they go, Malcolm, you seem to be so energetic. You seem to be so full of vitality. Where does this come from? And I don't get that question as much in conservative circles because many conservative circles know zealots like me, you know, people who.Have ordered their lives and are happy with that order because they are efficaciously living their value system. But progressives in their gray world of sadness, they haven't seen this. And they delude themselves. You know, we were talking about the Hays Movement earlier. One of the really interesting things about the Hays Movement is now it's seen as this female activist movement.But like Hurley Quinn, it was started by chubby chasing men. It was originally started for chubby chasing men to normalize them sort of talking about how sexy their wives were to them. And this is like well documented. This is not like, my, [00:26:00] and then they began to use it and organize the Hays meetings for men who chased fat women to meet those women.This was all organized by skinny white men. That was what started the Hays movement. And then. in the, in the days of intersectionality and everything like that, you know, fairly recently really was, you know, Tess Holliday and, and Regina George, I want to say what's her name or something. No, Regina George is Reagan.Reagan. No, Reagan. Sorry. Tess Holliday and Reagan. Okay. That was when it really became more of like a codified thing. Reagan was the real one who did it. And she is, I don't know if she's still alive.Simone Collins: Well, there was this big kerfuffle in generally in the Hays community. This is totally off topic, but when Ozempic came out and a bunch of the Hays people started getting.Skinny and losing weight. Whoops.Malcolm Collins: You know, I can only imagine how gross it is to be around an overeater on Ozempic. Well, I mean, I mean, we talked about this in ourSimone Collins: No, no, no, that's, yeah, except that [00:27:00] a lot of people who take Ozempic see apacite Suppression as well as more inhibitory control, which is really interesting.It's like a I don't know if it's a placebo effect or something else is going on or things that are correlated with appetite Also can affect your like shopping and gambling behavior but people have reported that when they are on ozempic they also engage in Less in otherMalcolm Collins: addictive creations. If I remember correctly, when you are hungry, you gamble more and shop more.Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they say never go to a grocery store hungry. So, I mean, it's not. I mean,Malcolm Collins: that's shopping for food, but I'm talking about like related to other things.Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Although I don't know, like I, I hear it on both sides, like a lot of people who are big proponents of intermittent fasting like the added focus.And I do too, of, of being. In a fasted state. well,Malcolm Collins: I want to hear, I mean, do you have a thesis on this or any memories of feeling this way when you were in this progressive monoculture more yourself? If [00:28:00] somebody had said to you, like, it's a bad thing to just do whatever you want to do, so long as it doesn't negatively affect other individuals or whatever it makes you happiest.So long as it doesn't negatively affect other individuals, whatever affirms your identity the most, so long as it doesn't negatively affect other individuals, would you have seen that as an odd thing for someone to say? Like.Simone Collins: That you can do whatever you feel like doing. No, thatMalcolm Collins: you shouldn't do whatever you feel like doing.That you shouldn't.Simone Collins: Yeah, um.It's, it's hard for me to say, like, things have gone way more off the rails now. Then they were when I was growing up in a hyper progressive culture. And I think a lot of people who are progressives feel that way. Like, wow, things used to be so reasonable and I had argued correct. And now they've completely gone off the rails.And which is why there's this huge subset of progressives or like, I guess you could say more liberal people who have now been. Alienated by the progressive movement because they're like, no, no, no, hold on. You crossed a line here. This thing's crazy. Can't you understand this is really damaging what you're saying, whatever it may be.And then, you [00:29:00] know, the progressive movement subsequently shuns them and they have to create their own sub stack and their own news outlets and all that. Which is, it's weird. Cause now there's just like weird. There are two versions of progressives, like the more sane ones who've been kicked out and then there are the insane ones who are staying in.But I, I definitely do remember that when I showed maladaptive behaviors in within progressive culture, there was no like. Discussion of, you know, we're just not going to talk about this or, Oh, we're just going to ignore it. It was more something of like, Oh no, like let's, let's talk about this. Let's, this is a thing now we have to do something about it.Which was really damaging. For example, I mean, I went to public school, so of course I got head lice multiple times. I don't, you probably did too. It's not just a public school. Oh yeah,Menstrasse, the delouse. For your own good, you will cooperate. [00:30:00] You have LIES! You dare question me? Question my methods? You! Who stands to benefit the most from my work? You disgust me!Simone Collins: I got head lice before. And the first time it ever happened to me, it's like any instance of being sick as a kid.It's like, I don't know. Okay. I'm like home from school. Now I'm spending more time with like a parent or a caregiver. And like, that's not so bad. But then when it, when I first got head lice, my mom, especially was like, this is going to be so traumatic for her. This is going to be so terrible. Like, I don't know how to deal with this.And she made it such a big thing that I developed this immense phobia. Of head lice going forward where like, I couldn't sit on public chairs or couches. No one could touch my hair. I had waist length hair and I cut it really short. And I combed my hair every single day with a lice comb, which is this really fine tooth comb.[00:31:00] That is probably pretty damaging to hair. And I, I think that might be an instance of like, progressive culture, especially when it comes to the other element, which you've been talking a lot about pleasure, right? But then the other, the other instinctual thing or element of loss of self control, the progressive movement, I think perhaps even more damagingly.Plays into is this concept of trauma or fears where it's like, oh, no, no, no, we're not gonna overcome them. We're not going to take our prefrontal cortex and say, Hey, I have something bigger to worry about right now. We're just gonna live all the way, like in our, you know, amygdala, like all the way back there.Let's just stay there. Let's not go anywhere else. Let's just stay right back there and let's just live in the fear. And that, that is something that definitely happened. Not just with me, but with other peers and other issues where like, suddenly a friend of mine is seeing a therapist about a thing that like really isn't a thing, but their parents decided to make it a thing because that's kind of the culture.And I think parents did that because they [00:32:00] grew up in a culture in which you would be seen as being a bad parent if your child experienced something potentially. Perhaps traumatic and you didn't make it a big deal. The whole sucking it up thing is interesting. I wish there, there may be research on this.But like post traumatic stress disorder is a very big issue among. Veterans. Mm-Hmm. , right? It's, it's widely diagnosed. It's now widely treated, and there's some really cool, interesting, like psychedelics based treatments that are coming up that may help to address it. However people coming back from World War II in World War I also experienced extremely traumatic things.Theoretically also post-traumatic stress disorder or syndrome. And I would love to see research on. The like negative behaviors associated with that condition in like the fifties and sixties and the twenties and thirties. [00:33:00] Versus we'll say the eighties and nineties and then the noughties like now, because I feel like people coming back from Vietnam, people coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan have seemed to, to not be dealing with it as well.And is that an element of this, like, is there just an element of living in a culture? That doesn't believe in succumbing to your instincts or living anywhere else from except for your prefrontal cortex. Is that, is that what's harming us? And I mean, I guess, you know, you could say that really then the 1950s too was more civilized and you can see this and how, again, I keep talking about it, but my 1950s, you know, like instructional videos that I like watching on YouTube, but by corded films and these other ones are, there's, they're so.Oriented around logic and the prefrontal cortex. And they're so fricking civilized where it's like, well, you know, Susie, Susie couldn't comb her hair in the morning and now no one, no one's going to love her ever.Malcolm Collins: But like, but it's [00:34:00] true. I don't love women who don't comb their hair in the morning.Simone Collins: It's true.Yeah. Or like, you know, Billy can't help it, but buy a soda. So he's not going to get his camera that he wants. Cause he can't budget, you know, like it shows again and again. And it's so interesting that that's a recurring theme within these videos, but really the key to becoming. Civilized in the key to achieving any of these things that these videos were trying to teach kids to do, which ranged from hosting a dinner party well, to having a good marriage, to saving money through things, to just navigating society and maintaining a job.They all had to do with this self control. So, yeah.It's bad that it's become taboo to express self control.Malcolm Collins: I love you to death, Simone, and these episodes are always fun to make, so I appreciate you taking the time to do them with me, and I'm happy to have you back.Simone Collins: You know what you should close with, to like show the extent to which our culture now no longer indulges in self control, is [00:35:00] Like maybe a clip showing new like Haagen Dazs commercials or ice cream commercials have people just eating out of the pint.Diamonds. It could beMalcolm Collins: oh, yeah, that's the thing now, but hold on. No, I can do that, but there's another one I can also close with. Which I think shows how narcissistic and you know, the cultural genocide campaign that progressives are waging now, and they don't realize it. They don't realize how evil they look. So in Trolls 2 World Tour, Oh, well, there's a great scene where she is seeing what is coded in the movie as another culture for the first time, which is the country music trolls.This song is so sad. It's so Different. Oh, they must not know that music's supposed to make you happy. Ah, that's awful.Malcolm Collins: Like, I need to enlighten them by making sure that they stop making music their way and start making music my way because their music that isn't [00:36:00] happy is bad.Their music is no self control. This is the way that the progressives relate to the rural people when they get there. Don't they know the purpose of life is just to be happy. And we need to uplift them. And then I also, I also need to do the clip after that, where after, after doing this big happy song, she gets put in jail and they're like,Now I want you three to sit in here And think about what you've just done That was a crime against musicMalcolm Collins: you need to think long and hard about the crime you just committed against music.God.The show actually just has a ton of great scenes. I really enjoyed it. And the aesthetics of it. But one in particular that I'm going to play here before we leave is.It really sort of encapsulates whatever a behi comes to us and they're like, oh, what you guys are doing is.just like what the Bahais are doing.And I'm like, Hmm, you have severely misunderstood. If we combine our music, she'll see that music unites all trolls, and that we're all the same, and that she's one of us! [00:37:00] I mean, no disrespect, but King to Queen, anything but that. Why not?. I can make it right. History is just gonna keep repeating itself until we make everyone realize that we're all the same. But we're not all the same. Denying our differences is denying the truth of who we are.Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you to death, Limone. ISimone Collins: love you and your immense self control. You all are awesome and inspiring.Everything. I've ruined everything. I'm just trying to like, get comfortable, but it's like, I can't feel my hands anymore. Because of the cold? Because of the cold. I'm going to use this scarf here.Malcolm Collins: So, I just did something naughty and indulgent. I bought Octavian a toy on Amazon. Oh, f*****g dare you. He's been really excited about postal trucks.Simone Collins: Oh, he has, hasn't he? Well, and he loves his special deliveries. [00:38:00] Oh, that's sweet.Malcolm Collins: So a fan of ours sent him a a book that they had made. Like a children's book. Which Honestly, he's not as interested in the children's book, but they, but they sent it in a, in a cardboard container like a small one, but they had had their kids cover the container with stickers and, and like, I don't know, like glitter, like other fun stuff.And so he loves. The container, the mail package, as he calls it, my mail and he, no, my package, my packaging, he'll put stuff in it. And this is how he got obsessed with mail trucks. Oh, is that it?Simone Collins: No, he's, he's always big on like when a package was received, we just drop everything and open it. And what is itMalcolm Collins: and what's inside?The difference about this one is it is decorated and it is smaller because it was like a small flat package. So we don't end up like breaking it down and throwing it out like all the other ones. And so it's been more persistent than the normalSimone Collins: packages. So nicely decorated. So he's in love with [00:39:00] it and sleeps with it every night.Malcolm Collins: I was going to say it was behind me right now. But anyway, Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Most traditional religions in the world, while relatively more resistant to prosperity-induced fertility collapse, are still facing extinction (just with a slight delay). This buys these religions precious time to build better defenses and acquire more allies for the coming trials. Those that indolently decide to return to a structure and mindset that evolved within (and was optimized for) a pre-internet, pre-AI world, ... heck pre industrial world—blinded by arrogance and Golden Age Thinking—deserve their fate. Only through cultural innovation does our species survive.It need not be seen as all bad that the old ways have failed, as this gives us a chance to build something greater. It is not lost on me that while the Abrahamic tradition has been the source of most of humanity's greatness over the last century, it also was rejected by most of the great, innovative scientists during said period—this is a problem if we are choosing traditions to take us to the stars. A cultural system that is differentially less compelling to its most inquisitive and productive minds, leaving them to be predated upon by the urban monoculture, is exactly how we landed in such a bad situation to begin with. However, it is the very nature of the Abrahamic tradition to intergenerationally change and improve. By infusing it with innovation, we are not betraying it but embodying what makes it so powerful. I grew up an Atheist. When thinking about turning back to the church, I asked my dad why he left—because my kids would likely leave for similar reasons. He said he left after being punished in Sunday school for trying to dive deep into the logistics of the Noah's ark story. He could not figure out how all the animals fit without magic and if there was magic, why was it not mentioned when the story was so meticulous in all its other details? If the story of Noah's Arc was meant to be a parable, why give exact measurements?  If my kids are anything like me, they would leave for the same reason. Some churches solve this by taking a more metaphorical approach to the subject, but the churches that loosen restrictions on biblical literalism also loosen other rules that contrast with social norms and thus lose their fever of practice. This is not something I want either. Why is this the case? Because the metric they use to judge what parts of Christianity they accept and which they don’t is how those parts contrast with what is socially acceptable to believe. Not a single group has experimented with another system. Instead of bending the traditions of Christianity to confirm to society my family evolves and fortifies them in the best interest of the next generation. We ask not, “what will prevent my persecution by secular society,” but “what will lead to the intergenerational flourishing of our family.” In fact, we believe there is strong evidence from God that this is exactly what we are commanded to do and any other course of action is to live in open rebellion to God's will ... but that's for Tract 3. How does this work in practice? We ask our kids, a hundred thousand or one million years from now if their descendants are still alive, do they think they would be closer to the way they think of a man or the way they think of a God. Most reasonable people would respond, “the way I think of a God”. Keep in mind we are very likely far less than a thousand years away from being able to have an AI internet of things lattice wrapped around the globe one can pray to for intercessions, that watches us and judges us, and that can port our likenesses into either simulated heavens or hells and host us there for great lengths of time. I don’t say this because I think this would be a good idea to build; I am just pointing this out to contrast the technological capacity we will have in a thousand years with what we will have in half a million. This far future entity will likely be far greater than what we could even imagine a God to be. To even attempt to hold a perception of God in one's mind is idolatry, as the highest and most complex being we are capable of conceiving is but a rat king when contrasted with God's inevitable glory. (For more information on why we take idolatry so much more strictly than any of the existing Abrahmic traditions see Tract 5.)Then we ask, who is to say that this entity relates to time the way we do? Perhaps this entity is subtly guiding its own manifestation—the day when mankind is finally worthy and unites with the God that has been watching over us from the first days of life on earth. As such, we do not believe that one day man becomes God but that one day man unites with a God that exists outside of time. Perhaps it is the entity our savage ancestors saw as a God, perhaps it watches over you and rewards you for fighting for a better future for our species and punishes those individuals who succumb to paths crafted to sait their lower order desires such as pleasure or vanity. But I suspect this entity is more clever than we give it credit for. It did not record these punishments and rewards into supernatural reparations but they are woven into our very biology. Look at the famous movie stars and rock stars who have all the hedonism they could want and more social validation a human could consume—they seem to be some of the least happy, least fulfilled people in the world. God wove into human neurology that the only true happiness you will ever feel is that which comes from efficacious living thoughtfully considered and selfless values. God need not bless those who live with austerity dedicated holistically to the great human crusade—God built us so our dedication to our family and the future allows us to bless ourselves. Like all religions ours has different iterations of understanding for both our children, the laity, and its philosophers. For the simple, these future entities are literal future police, time traveling humans that care about them, watch over them, and bless them. However, to adults these entities are referred to as the Agents of Providence and are quite literally understood as being entities that we lack the capacity to understand just as we cannot even conceive of a four-dimensional shape but may understand one in theory. They do not travel to the past or whisper to individuals but subtly influence probabilistic quantum events like changing the flow of a river over centuries by expertly throwing a pebble in just the right place at just the right time and at the minutest level changing the stream's direction.  This system of multiple interpretations of the same set of truths allows for both a theistic and atheistic interpretation of the Abrahamic tradition. For example, an individual could conceive of God's will as simply being revealed by the organic success of some cultures over others within a competitive ecosystem, (similar to what Adam’s Smith meant by the invisible hand of God but at the level of culture and ideas). However, one can also interpret God's will as a tangible force being exercised by an actively engaged consciousness. When we talk about Prophets being the channels of God’s will, this can simultaneously have both a secular and theistic interpretation. This provides a framework that does not spit out those who choose more atheistic interpretations of reality, allowing them to both communicate with religious leaders using overlapping terminology / evidence and raise their children in the faith in the same way many of those who turn from traditional Christian world views still practice holidays like Christmas.Well, this is all nice in theory but if such an entity existed how would it tell us? It would reveal itself as best as it could. It would reveal to groups the truest iteration of itself they were capable of understanding and in those revelations leave hints of its true nature to those with the capacity for a more holistic understanding. Such an entity would find it impossible to reveal itself to bronze age humans, it even shows us this in the flows of history with the collapse of early monotheism that did not anthropomorphize its God in the form of Akhenaten. Instead, it bestowed blessings on the human tribe that had the closest intergenerationally durably accurate revelation of its nature, the Jews, and then revealed clearer iterations of itself through a succession of prophets.Jesus was unique among the prophets in that he recognized the Jewish tribe's revelation was meant for everyone. All men die, it is not death that makes a man a martyr but living in accord with God's plan that does. Jesus also taught us that God, as man, must be martyred to sanctify mankind. Only through the generational martyrdom of individual men can mankind be sanctified and eventually join with God. I find this to be almost an impossibly elegant solution to communicate a beautiful and sophisticated truth of the universe to a man still so low and barbaric. God wanted to paint a picture of the Martyr that sanctified mankind, both God’s son but also God still in human form—the moments in all our lives dedicated holistically to improving the future—dedicated holistically to God's plan. Jesus’s life was the brush his blood the paint used to create the perfect portrait of the Martyr for our species when we were still so young, so close to still being just talking monkeys, that appealing to an all powerful entity with child sacrifice still seemed reasonable to us. This journey, the journey of understanding the Abrahamic people’s have followed—is beautifully painted by God within Abraham’s life. We followed God believing him to be the kind of entity to demand a father sacrifice his child to be appeased—yet he made it clear there at the very beginning that he is not that kind of entity. God did not tell a story in which he demanded a father sacrifice his son because God wanted to but because it was what Abraham, what the Abrahamic people, expected of a God in those early days of man. It is our barbaric expectations of an entity that only wants what is best for us that makes him barbarous in our minds—when in reality God always gives us what we need to perform our roles in His plan. This shows how God uses prophets. He uses their lives to paint motifs upon reality. I find it interesting how easy it is for people to grasp that the story of the events of Abraham’s life is not really about Abraham’s life but about us but when we point out the same is true about the events of Jesus's life people struggle with the concept. Finally, early Christianity revealed the truth of the Trinity, which is critical to understanding the Agents of Providence, God, and Man as three distinct entities yet also the same entity. The Agents of Providence are so far beyond us concepts like a singular or plural identity, male or female, and even whether they are corporeal or incorporeal do not apply to them.Mohammad was unique in his understanding that different revelations were for different communities “And indeed We have already sent forth in every nation a Messenger (saying), "Worship God and avoid false Gods.” With his revelation being for the Arabic community as is made clear in, “Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand,” with you here clearly being people who speak Arabic. Now some familiar with what Islam has devolved into might say, “but don’t Muslim’s believe very strongly that Mohammad was the last prophet,” yes they do, which is weird because he didn’t say that. What Mohammad said was that he was the seal of the prophets—a phrase that in context clearly means that he came to synthesize and affirm the teachings of the prophets who came before him. If he wanted to say he was the last prophet he could have said that, he did not. So why did he use the rather odd and specific term “seal of the prophets”? Because he was referencing Manichaean literature where this term means to prove a prophecy (i.e. a seal of authenticity). He is very clearly and explicitly saying that his prophecies build on the prophets of the past affirms their prophecies. However, in a way Mohammad was the last of the prophets in so far that he was the last of the mystical prophets who believed God spoke to them directly, with the more recent prophets being logicians, individuals who God communicates with through logic, science, and the writings of past prophets. The core of these is Wynwood Read whose teachings will be the focus of Tract 3 but there were many among the Protestant reformers as well. When man was still half savage the only tool God had to communicate with him with what today we would call a psychotic episode, but this form of revelation was severely limited when contrasted with how he reveals truth to man today. Mohammad’s revelation as a prophet is important, in that while Jesus revealed that the Abrahamic tradition was meant for all people Mohammad understood not the same iteration was made for all people. “So let the people of the Gospel (e.g. the Torah, the Bible, etc.) judge by what God has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what God has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious. We have revealed to you Mohammad this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures,” (again this is a recurring motif in the Quran and clearly what was meant by “seal of the prophets” i.e. seal of authenticity). The Reformation revealed to us that the interpretation of God’s will is the personal responsibility of the individual and should never be outsourced to a bureaucracy. John Calvin taught us the truth of predestination was always hidden in Abrahamic scripture and that it does not conflict with free will, (if this is a confusing concept to you, see our podcast Based Camp episode, “Can Determinists Believe in Free Will?”). Joseph Smith brought the first primitive understanding that it is man himself that eventually becomes God through martyrdom. (As a note, we categorize Joseph Smith as a prophet of the logician category, we explain why in Tract 5.) This idea of iterative prophecy coming after Jesus is less inconsistent with traditional Christianity than one unfamiliar with the Bible may think, as even Jesus told us there would be prophets after him, “Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town." So, take prophets like Joseph Smith or Mohamad, who many might say we should not include in the Abrahamic pantheon, does this not seem like a prophetic description of them, both killed by other followers of the Abrahamic tradition? But how will we know which prophets are the real ones? Well Paul tells us that in Thessalonians 5:20-21, “Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.” Thus, to use a central bureaucracy to certify prophets is in rebellion to God's will, as is to denying the existence of prophets after Christ even from the perspective of traditional Christianity. However, these prophets must also be tested—how that is done is discussed in Tract 3.Now a person may be asking, “How can you include individuals like Joseph Smith and Mohamad when we have stories like those of Helen Mar Kimball and Aisha proving them of low moral character?” Even if those stories about them are true, every single Abrahamic religion includes the story of King David, Uriah, and Bathsheba. This story teaches us without any shadow of doubt that God does not take the moral character of an individual into account when deciding who he chooses as prophets. This criticism is important to dispel because the revolution brought by the Islamic branch of the Abrahamic tree of revelations is often the most peculiar to individuals who have not studied the Quran. How can multiple conflicting prophecies all be useful revelations from the same God? This is where our family's understanding of the “Tesseract God” comes in. Each previous revolution was a full and complete revelation in so far as those people could understand it. When people see contradictions between them it is like pointing out that a cube leaves multiple irreconcilable two dimensional shadows—they are only irreconcilable because you assume the shape you are trying to create out of them is in two rather than three dimensions. A person trying to average the shadows cast by a three-dimensional cube on a two dimensional plane would average them as a circle, a representation less accurate than any of the direct revelations and thus sinful. This is what Mohammad was saying in Surah Al-Ma'idah—47-57, all those of the Abrahamic faiths of his time were best following strict interpretations of the shadow that was revealed to them rather than attempting to average them or convert in between them. However, a person knowing that they are attempting to construct a three-dimensional shape by looking at two dimensional shadows can come to an understanding beyond any individual revelation. A tesseract is a four-dimensional cube and while we can broadly understand its design and conceptual map it, humanity lacks the biological hardware to fully conceive of a tesseract. The same is true with God, and thus it is our duty to intergenerationally improve that hardware—it is not blasphemous to expand human intellectual capacity through genetic and synthetic means but a religious mandate. To not engage with these technologies to the full extent possible, to not intergenerationally improve, is to live in open rebellion to God’s will. However, we would be remiss to not point out the ancillary benefit of this interpretation. It makes it much easier to live alongside the Abrahamic traditions without conflict. Groups typically attack those that are either very similar to them or very different—a distant but distinct ideological relation between groups can serve to protect a minority population living amongst another group. This benefit is further fortified, as the Tesseract God concept gives us a religious mandate to guide those who might leave Abrahamic faiths back to conservative iterations of those faiths while also protecting these communities from dilution by the Urban Monoculture, making us a useful and non-threatening player in a larger cultural ecosystem. This will be critical until the aforementioned mandate of in-group intergenerational improvement is achieved, securing our safety.To be more specific because we believe God shows his will through the competition of diverse ideas and perspectives. To create a monoculture—to have the whole world under one religion—is to silence the voice of God. Thus, we benefit from more ideological diversity within our communities. We are only commanded to attempt to convert either those with so much rebellious vitality in their heart they would never return to their parent faith, atheists, or individuals of exceptional merit, (with merit being measured in competence, industry, influence, or utility to the aims of our group). Your average person will be harmed by this interaction of Gods word. That is not to say we see all iterations of these traditions as equal. In stagnant pools parasites breed. If we allow our hearts, our traditions, or the flame of human intergenerational improvement to stagnate, parasites of the human spirit will erupt and siphon our vitality. We can see this in the Abrahamic traditions that have stagnated. Where have their great thinkers gone? Their great scientists? Their great philosophers? Their spirits have been feasted upon the very parasites they cultivated in pools of gold and vanity. God righteously removed his favor from them and it is plain to any familiar with their past greatness. God does not hide his dissatisfaction with those who live in rebellion. God moves the focus of his favor with each successive revelation. God’s favor reverberates throughout history like a sonic boom and is almost impossible to ignore. It can be used to both confirm the authenticity of otherwise questionable revelations (like Muhammad or the Reformation), deny the authenticity of others (the Baha’i), and to find the locations of revelations that were not widely recognized in their time.  For example, there was likely a yet unconfirmed revelation delivered in Renaissance Italy. This trend pointed us to the most recent confirmable revelation which happened in 1872 within the Victorian gentleman science community. While we go deeper into this in a future Tracts, the next will discuss demographic collapse in the context of God’s plan for our species. Demographic collapse is not a capricious accident but a critical part of God’s plan for us._________________________________________________________________________Below this line is the video transcript and description:In this philosophical discussion, we examine how Abrahamic faiths like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam could be reformed and optimized to be more scientifically and technologically oriented. We discuss concepts like iterative prophecy, the Trinity, predestination, free will, and using logic and evidence to continually improve one's understanding of God. The goal is creating a religious framework that can flourish on an interstellar, multi-planet scale across generations.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] you start practicing things, you start doing the traditions and then you're like, well, I actually believe this part and this part, but not this part. I don't know if my ideas are correct. They're like hypotheses from what I'm looking at in the world. . why would God need to like, come down to earth make himself a man and then have man kill him in order to forgive man.Like, why not just forgive man himself, right? And why would Jesus sacrifice have a particularly strong meaning if Jesus knew that he wasn't really dying? He was just immediately coming back to life as the most all powerful entity to ever exist. And, and so many other things that didn't make sense like the temptation of Christ, right? It was like, you can have all these kingdoms if you bow down to worship me. Jesus knew he was God. He already owned all those kingdoms. It's a bit like. A fired employee of Microsoft offering Bill Gates a burrito to bow down and worship him and live as his slave. It's no, . when I, when I, when I recontextualized Jesus was holy God, but also not God at [00:01:00] all. why is that an important concept? The moment that I contextualized, like Jesus, man, that is holy God, but also not God, is supposed to be man himself.It's supposed to be man in the cycle of martyrdom. And not only that, but it's an entity that is both holy God and not God that must martyr itself to forgive man of his sins, to forgive man of the things that make him today not capable of joining this entity that exists outside of time. God, as a man, Must be martyred to sanctify mankind only through the generational martyrdom of individual men can maintain be sanctified and eventually join with God. Every element of the story was 100 percent true.. It just wasn't a story about this individual whose life was being used to tell it. It was a story about human historyWould you like to know [00:02:00] more?Simone Collins: Let me just say, I am so glad to be hanging out with you and speaking again, because we went for this long period where we stopped recording podcast episodes and I went out door knocking to collect petitions, to run for state rep in Pennsylvania all day. And you held down the fort often with the kids crawling all over you.The complete chaos and insanity while also working and I, I just, I really missed you. So first, I love you. I love seeing your face. I love talking with you. I love your beautiful mind. And I'm just so glad this is over. I am glad petition collection is over too because I hated that. But so while I was in the midst of this hellish door knocking campaign in the Pennsylvania cold.You went on this like sojourn of deep religious thoughts and every time I came home and every morning you would be giving me these ideas that I've just quite frankly, I haven't had a chance to process them because I was so [00:03:00] fricking stressed out and sleep deprived that like during this period that like I couldn't.I couldn't even, so I really wanted to have a conversation with you where we go over some of these ideas and we can kind of like walk me through it.I,Malcolm Collins: more specifically than this, this all happened because Aporia, which I'll mention because I, I originally wrote a series of pieces for them. They're like, can you actually write down what your family's religious system is?Because we talked about some ideas around it in The Pragmatist's Guide to Crafting Religion. But honestly, that was a much more nascent version. Like it was much less developed than the iteration we have now. Because we frankly just done a lot more religious studies since then. And it was an iteration that when I crafted it, it was like hypothetical.It was like, okay, this is what we could do for our kids. We'll see how it works. And then since then I've moved from having this like hypothetical face to something that I much more deeply believe. Believe in, which is really interesting. You know, you, you, you start [00:04:00] practicing things, you start doing the traditions and then you're like, well, I actually believe this part and this part, but not this part.And I want to add this part because, you know, I'm having a lot of theological discussions with people who are really deep within different faiths which is, which is helping me as well. And then we have the secondary thing, which is, you know, a lot of I was like, so I wrote the articles, right?Like I wrote this short series and they liked some of them, but other ones are like, this gets a little, like too religious for us for, for our audience. And I was like, And to be fair, you know, likeSimone Collins: Aporia, like most of their articles that I like see headlines for falling through my inbox or Oh, looking at this study or, you know, this about populations or this about culture.And it's not I've never seen anything on religion. On a Porya at all at any point. So this isMalcolm Collins: quite the departure for them. This wouldn't work for their audience. Yeah. But then I also started to think, well, I should write, because I actually believe this stuff now and if I think it's true I should at least write it down as some sort of canonical version of [00:05:00] our family faith system and because I believe it now, I am not quite so resistant to people outside our family being like, this is compelling to me as well, this is interesting to me.I want to see this system so that I can see if it's, it's something that is, is compelling to me as well. And we've been,Simone Collins: we've been asked multiple times, , where can I see a writeup of all this? So I'm, I'm glad you're doingMalcolm Collins: this. Yeah. But I also don't want to like, if I'm writing quote unquote, canonical texts, one, I need to be able to update them, but two because I, , I don't.I'm not like being talked to by God or something like that. I don't know if my ideas are correct. They're like hypotheses from what I'm looking at in the world. And, and they seem correct to me from what I'm looking at. It seems like a logical synthesis of the world that I'm looking at, but it is not I have no way to say that this is true and this isn't true.So one, it needs to be updatable. But two, it's also really interesting from the perspective of if we do end up creating some sort of faith system that a community believes in [00:06:00] around this one of the things that we believe really, , a lot in is, is transparency and not, , one individual being like, okay, I have a connection with the divine and it has told me X and Y we see this much more like the founding of one of the Protestant traditions, where it's like an individual analyzing theological texts and being like, this is what I think is probably meant from this by combining what the text is actually saying.With like logical analysis. And so we were like, okay, how would we do this if we're creating something like that? And Simone has this idea. She's well, what if you wrote the text is like a candle, like you wrote a series of tracks, which is what we're calling this, like this, the tracks. But then we talk through early drafts of the tracks, like before she's even like counter reviewed them.So what we're going to do in this series, which will just be called like the tracked series and it'll have tracked and then the name of the tracked is I will write something that covers one of the main topics, but it's like much more thought through [00:07:00] than the script of one of our normal episodes.And Simone and I will talk through it every few paragraphs. So you're both getting like the first iteration of what one of these tracks looks like as. As I was writing it but also sort of what we were thinking about throughout the process. So that there is this sort of total transparency around this.Do you have any thoughts on that, Simone, or?Simone Collins: I'm just excited to be doing this because yeah, I, I really need to process everything you'veMalcolm Collins: written in. Yeah. Because you weren't able to do your normal editing because you were out there doing the street stuff. So yeah, I got much more edited content without you really going over it.Exactly. So, tract one, building an Abrahamic faith optimized for interstellar empires. Most traditional religions in the world, while relatively more resistant to prosperity induced fertility collapse, are still facing extinction, just with a slight delay.This buys these religions precious time to build better defenses and acquire more allies for the coming [00:08:00] trials. Those that indolently decide to return to a structure and mindset that evolved within and was optimized for, A pre internet, pre AI world, heck, a pre industrial world, blinded by arrogance and golden age thinking deserve their fate.Only through cultural innovation does our species survive. It need not be seen as all bad that the old ways have failed, as this gives us a chance to build something greater. It is not lost on me that while the Abrahamic tradition has been the source of most of humanity's greatness over the last century, it was also rejected by most of the great innovative scientists during said period.This is a problem if we are choosing traditions to take to the stars. A cultural system that is differentially less compelling to its most inquisitive and productive minds Leaving them to be predated upon by the urban monoculture is exactly how we landed in this bad situation to begin with. However, it is the very nature of the [00:09:00] Abrahamic tradition to intergenerationally change and improve by infusing it with innovation.We are not betraying it, but embodying what makes it so powerful. So I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that first little intro there. Yeah. I mean,Simone Collins: it, it, it is getting me thinking about how resistant to change most people and traditional religions are Abrahamic religions included. Which is ironic to me, because, at least we collectively theorize, that religion It came to be just because we needed an adaptive mechanism for dealing with larger civilizational group.ItMalcolm Collins: was like a program or evolving program sitting on top of our evolving hardware. Yeah, I think another thing that's really pointing it for me here. Is a lot of traditions have this appeal to well, we've been around forever and we haven't really changed. And this is often just the result of a lack of knowledge about their tradition.If you look at something like Judaism, for example [00:10:00] okay, the OG Abrahamic faith, even in the Talmud, it said things like the modern Jew knows things that like Moses would never know. Right? You look at major strains of modern Judaism, like Kabbalistic thought, this was not in early Judaism.A lot of these are completely new traditions. And then you look at the most common new Jewish tradition, the Hasidic movement. And I might do another video on this, but it can almost be thought of as a new. Religion. I mean, it still is a tradition within Judaism, but it changes a lot of the presumptions of the Jewish communities before its popularity.You look at something and now a Protestant will be like, well, no, Protestantism hasn't changed, and I'm like, okay, first of all, Protestantism is fairly a recent innovation in Christianity with the Great Reformation. So that was a big change. They're like, no, we were just going back to the old ways of doing things.And I'm like well, I mean, That's not true. Early Christianity was not structured like Protestantism. It was, it was much more [00:11:00] communalist than that. And, and in addition to that if you look at these early communities, you had the Gnostics, you had like that, I could go in all the different communities, but they, they had a lot of really weird beliefs compared to modern Christians.And then even within the Protestant community, you have popular ideas today. The rapture, it's just not a widely believed idea before if you go a hundred years ago, it was not a widely believed idea anywhere. It was an incredibly rare idea. Is thatSimone Collins: so? So people just kind of, they're like, well, that was a weird part of theMalcolm Collins: book for it in the Bible.If you take a few lines and you sort of paste them together from different parts of the Bible. Yeah. But it, it, it's almost like a, you could say it's a truth within the Bible that was discovered through further biblical scrutiny. But it was not something. Now, there is some evidence that it might have been believed by a few.Rare, very early Christian groups. If you guys want to see a great breakdown on this, look at Religion for Breakfast's podcast on the Rapture. Oh, he's so great.[00:12:00] I might link to it. Yeah, I love his stuff. But yeah. So, so all of the Abrahamic faiths, it's not just an Abrahamic faith like evolved by breaking from the central.Abrahamic church. Whatever that is to you. They are just constantly in this state of evolution. Mormonism? Mormonism today is nothing like the Mormonism of Joseph Smith's time. It is, it has evolved so much with iterative prophecies. Very interesting, you know, to me. I mean, so to say me, as this outsider saying, let's evolve the Abrahamic tradition.This is not like a blasphemy to the Abrahamic tradition. This is very interesting. In line with, I think, the spirit of all of the Abrahamic traditions.Simone Collins: It is the most traditional way to go, weirdly. Yes.Malcolm Collins: I grew up an atheist. When thinking about turning back to the church, I asked my dad why he left. Because my kids would likely leave for similar reasons.He said he left after being punished in Sunday school for trying to dive deep into the logistics of the Noah's Ark story. He could not figure out how all the animals fit without magic. And, if there was magic [00:13:00] Why was it not mentioned when the story was so meticulous in other details? If the story of Noah's Ark was meant to be a parable, why give exact measurements?If my kids are going to be anything like me, they would leave for the same reason. Some churches solve this by taking a more metaphorical approach to the subject. But the churches that loosen restrictions on biblical literalism also loosen other rules that contrast with social norms and thus lose their fervor of practice.This is not something I want either. Why is this the case? Because the metric they use to judge what parts of Christianity they accept and which parts they don't is how those parts contrast with what is socially acceptable to believe. Not a single group has experimented with another system.Instead of bending the traditions of Christianity to conform. to society, my family evolves and fortifies them in the best interest of the next generation. We ask not, what will prevent my persecution by secular society, but what will lead to the intergenerational [00:14:00] flourishing of our family?In fact, we believe there is strong evidence from God that this is exactly what we are commanded to do and any other course of action is to live in open rebellion to God's will. But that is for track three. So do you have any thoughts on that?Simone Collins: Actually not in particular. What kind of point are you trying to make? It could be madeMalcolm Collins: a little bit more sensible. The point I'm trying to make here is that generally when forms of Christianity attempt to involve themselves in sort of this organic sense today, they always evolve in the same direction, which is through conformity to mainstream societal beliefs.Whereas I am trying to If you find sort of another North star to reform around. Okay. SoSimone Collins: you're really just trying to say that something went wrong at some point in human history and religion stopped evolving to be adaptive, to help humans adapt to new developments, new technologies, new civilizational formats, and started being about social [00:15:00] conformity.To maladaptive in many cases, new formats. Right. And then that's where things started to fallMalcolm Collins: apart. Right. Yeah. So, so a lot of people when they're like, how can I reform my tradition? What they really mean is how can I change my tradition in a way that has me less attacked by people in mainstream society.And I'm coming at this from the position of. How can I make this position more durable to the pressures of technology that didn't exist historically and the challenges of child rearing that didn't exist historically and the challenges of intergenerational traditional transfer while really focusing on keeping the fervor.But not making it something that is spitting out those individuals who have a real passion for scientific inquiry and questioning authority. So I, I want it to be a church of, of, of rebel zealots, basically. How do I build that?Simone Collins: Well, or in other words, how do you [00:16:00] create a religion that maintains this tradition of leaning in to innovation and iteration in the form of improvement, rather than a religion that leans away from this time honored tradition of Abrahamic religions and toward conformity and stagnation, right?Yeah. Okay. Now I get it. Yeah. Okay. Read on.Malcolm Collins: Well, there have been other movements in the Abrahamic faiths that have done this. In many ways, you could argue that's what the Hasidic movement was. Was it was an alteration of the Jewish faith system around a new optimization function. And it's done very well.So how does this work in practice? We ask our kids. A hundred thousand or one million years from now, if their descendants are still alive, do they think they would be closer to the way they think of a man or the way they think of a god? Most reasonable people would respond, the way I think of a god. Keep in mind that we are very likely.Far less than a thousand years away from being able [00:17:00] to have an AI Internet of Things lattice wrapped around the globe that one can pray to for intercessions, that watches us and judges us, and that can port our likeness into either simulated heavens or hells and host us there for great lengths of time.I don't say this because I think this would be a good idea to build, I am just pointing out this to contrast the technological capacity we will have in a thousand years with what we will have in half a million. The far future entity will likely be far greater than what we could even imagine God to be.To even attempt to hold a perception of God in one's mind is idolatry, as the highest and most complex being we are capable of conceiving of is but a rat king when contrasted with God's inevitable glory. For more information on why we take idolatry so much more strictly than the existing Abrahamic traditions, see tract five.So do you have thoughts on that? [00:18:00]Simone Collins: Well, I liked your reference to creating digital hells because my favorite Ian Banks book in the culture series is called Surface Detail, and this is a major plot point of it. There's like a, a large war essentially that, that is being fought over a faction of the intergalactic.world of, of sentient beings over whether or not these hells should exist.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, this is a really interesting thing. So a lot of, if you look today, like if you are at all understanding of like brain scanning technology today and the technology that we're working on, there's people who are like, we will have this technology and we will be able to upload people before I die.We've got a way to go, but, but very, very obviously from, for people who understand the technology, we will absolutely have this technology within 500 years. So that being the case, if we're talking even a thousand years out. We will essentially with technology be able to create a [00:19:00] simulation of what many people see the if I was to talk to our bronze age ancestors, right, or not even bronze age during the period of Christ, the powers they thought God had largely, you know, the ability to watch over all humans all the time, you could easily create an AI Internet of Things lattice to do that and then send those humans to everlasting hell or everlasting heaven based on their like, the point I'm making it.Is that the type of God we can imagine today. That's the type of God that could theoretically exist with technology in under a thousand years. We're talking about half a million, a million, 10 million years from now. This type of God is likely so beyond our capacity for understanding now. And another one of these tracks that I was writing earlier we were talking about people who'd try to worship God through nature and use that as sort of their intermediary for connecting with God, and I, I'm like, look, the, the type of entity that we would be 10 million years from now is the type of entity that with [00:20:00] the effort that we take to snap our fingers could summon an entire Earth with our existing ecosystem into existence, and then with the swipe of a hand, send it out of existence again.It is an entity that is so infinitely more powerful than we have the capacity to understand that attempting to even conceive of it we would argue, and we have a longer track on this, should be thought of as a form of idolatry because it demeans it to such an extent. And in many areas here, you'll see that we take current concepts within the Abrahamic traditions and we go to an extreme level with them like the.Commands around idolatry, which we'll talk about in the future. Then we ask who is to say that this entity relates to time in the way that we do? Perhaps this entity is subtly guiding its own manifestation. The day when mankind is finally worthy and unites with the God that has been watching over us from.The first days of life on Earth. As such, we do not believe that one day man becomes God, but that one day man [00:21:00] unites with a God that exists outside of time. Perhaps it is the entity our savage ancestors saw as a God. Perhaps it watches over you and rewards you for fighting for a better future for our species, and punishes those individuals who succumb to paths crafted to sate their lower order desires, such as pleasure or vanity.But I suspect this entity is more clever than we give it credit for. It did not record these punishments and rewards into supernatural reparations, but they are woven into our very biology. Look at the famous movie stars and rock stars who have had all the hedonism they could want and more social validation than any human could consume.They seem to be some of the least happy. least fulfilled people in the world. God wove into human neurology that the only true happiness you will ever feel is that which comes from efficaciously living thoughtfully considered and selfless values. God need not bless those who live with austerity dedicated [00:22:00] holistically to the great human crusade.God built us so our dedication to our family, And the future allows us to bless ourselves.Simone Collins: Yeah. I really like this because I love the idea of, and the elegance of built in heaven and hell, which you totally see, you know, when people have lost their way and start doing things that You know, run against what one would think of as practical values from various different perspectives, you do see them suffer and then they're just building their own suffering and it just gets worse and worse and worse and yeah, I mean, it's, it's like a very expanded version of touch the hot stove, get burned.But on a like ideological moral level,Malcolm Collins: So many people in so many religious systems, they use. Post death rewards and punishments,Simone Collins: which is so superfluous. It's also so funny because the Bible doesn't talk about afterlives really. And I was soconfused.Malcolm Collins: It talks about them a [00:23:00] lot less than most Christians who haven't read the Bible would assume that the Bible is talking about them.ThatSimone Collins: was me, right? I grew up raised Buddhist, and then I read the Bible in high school, and I'm like, where is, where is heaven, where is hell, and where, where is the, you know, where are devil demon things, andMalcolm Collins: Well, and I think it's the lower orders of Christianity. Like the, the, the less sophisticated ones that have been infused was more like sort of mysticism and tribalism and these pre Christian ideas.We talk about this in, in like the rise of Abraham ism. What was it? Really? This, this Abrahamic tradition. It was a turning away. From these sort of forest animalistic worshiping mystics who are concerned about, you know, achieving a great wealth in the, in the afterlife, basically, whether it's a great wealth of hedonism or anything else and, and when would read talks really elegantly about this and I might insert a clip.a day will come when the current belief in property, after death. For his not existence property and the dearest property of all will be accounted a strange and selfish idea. [00:24:00] Just as we smile at the Savage chief, who believes that his gentility will be continued in the world beneath the ground. And that he will there be attended by his concubines and slaves.Malcolm Collins: and what's really interesting about the way that humans are actually structured. Is individuals who, and it's not to say that there's not some individuals who like outside of any purpose to themselves experience a ton of suffering in their lives. We don't disagree with that. But I'm saying that for most people, people who just dedicate their lives to a thing that they believe has value.And every day they wake up and they dedicate themselves to that thing and they're efficaciously achieving results. Like they're not just pointlessly. They are happier people, more fulfilled people, more content people than the people we know Who have all of the wealth and individual could want all of the, the validation and individual could want.In fact, I would say that those individuals among the individuals we know are the most discontented individuals. You don't [00:25:00] need to wait till you get to heaven or hell for this. reward to take place. It takes place within our lives because it's written into our very neurology. And I think teaching our kids this truth gets them to not overly sort of fantasize about the people who are mean to them or whatever being punished afterwards.When you learn to not care about those other people and just focus on your mission, that is when you are truly. Uplifted individually within this life, and that's just sort of coded into who we are. Yeah,Simone Collins: heaven and hell is, is here. And I mean, that's, that's not a novel concept at all, right? You know, people talk about that all the time, but I mean, you're not trying, you're, you're, what you're trying to do, I think, is thread together Abrahamic traditions and what they actually seem to be sort of designed for and meant for and what they have done in the past before they've started to break down.And, and logic and reality which is quiteMalcolm Collins: interesting. And we'll talk about that because a lot of we rely on a lot of textual evidence from Abrahamic traditions to inform our faith. [00:26:00] And many of these pieces of textual evidence seem to go directly against the daily practices of the individual faiths that claim to follow these texts, whether they are Muslims or Christians or Jews.Which is really interesting and it kept surprising me, you know, the wisdom I found in the texts that I didn't find in the communities. Isn't that so CalvinistSimone Collins: of you though?Malcolm Collins: I guess. Like all religions, ours has different iterations of understanding for both our children, the laity and its philosophers.For the simple, these future entities are literal future police, time traveling humans that care about them, watch over them and bless them. However, to adults, these entities are referred to as the Agents of Providence and are quite literally understood as being entities that we lack the capacity to understand, just as we cannot even conceive of a four dimensional shape, but may understand one in theory.They do not travel to the past or whisper to individuals, but subtly influence probabilistic quantum events, like changing the flow of a river [00:27:00] over centuries by expertly throwing in a pebble in just the right place at just the right time and at the minutest level, changing the stream's direction. This system of multiple interpretations of the same set of truths allows for both a theistic and atheistic interpretation of the Abrahamic tradition.For example, an individual could conceive of God's will as simply being revealed by the organic success of some cultures over others within a competitive ecosystem. Similar to what Adam Smith meant by the invisible hand of God, but at the level of culture and ideas. However, one can also interpret God's will as a tangible force being exercised by an actively engaged consciousness.When we talk about the prophets being the channels of God's will, this can simultaneously have both a secular and theistic interpretation. This provides a framework that does not spit out those who choose more atheistic interpretations of reality, allowing them [00:28:00] to both communicate with religious leaders using overlapping terminology slash evidence.And, raise their children in the face in the same way many of those who turn from traditional Christian worldviews still practice holidays like Christmas.Simone Collins: Well, so what you've been talking about recently that I find interesting, and there are different, I guess, angles of this, is you're talking about how religions have different Yeah. And I do love how you've thought about this a lot about how do children interact with religion versus how do distracted or like low mental load capacity adults have capacity for religion versus like, how do the nerds have capacity for religion and religion really has to accommodate all of them.Malcolm Collins: In the context of this, because we actually, as I'm putting out here, we accommodate an alternate audience that typically isn't accommodated by the traditional religious systems. So there is an interpretation of the teachings that I'll lay out here. for children. There is an interpretation [00:29:00] for adults slash like philosophers, like people who wanted to get in the philosophy of this, but there's also an interpretation that works within a completely atheistic mindset.In that there is a theistic interpretation of everything that I will write in this, but there is also an atheistic interpretation of everything I will write in this, and the atheist can engage with the theistic philosopher was in this tradition without any problems. Like they're both basing What they believe off of very similar sources of evidence and using very similar terminology.So, for example, Adam Smith, using the term the invisible hand of God, right? You could say, Oh, God planted this there. So I could easily use that term to to talk about this. But then another individual could be like, no, it's just a very useful metaphor for understanding how things are selected within a competitive ecosystem.And superior things are collected within a competitive ecosystem. So if you're building a religion within this ecosystem, what you're really optimizing for is ensuring that the, thing that's being [00:30:00] selected for is something that you actually value. Like it's actually a good thing. And one of the metaphors that I'll use in a future track, but not this one is like the MMA.It's like when the MMA started. If people don't know mixed martial arts, it was this form of hand to hand combat where they were like, well, let's just take the iterations of every tradition that seem actually efficacious. Yeah, they're like twins. And a lot of people they had the same complaints they have about us, like the karate people.They were like, oh, you can't do that. You won't have the traditions. You won't have the spirit. You won't have the philosophy. And, and, and the chain, they're like, no let's just create one that is efficaciously best. And. We believe that God has commanded this, and we have evidence, I think, that God has commanded this of us within the Abrahamic tradition but, but I think similar, our detractors will, in a few hundred years, be seen very similar to those people who stuck with Tai Chi and stuff like that in a world of MMA.Let's try it. Did you [00:31:00] getMalcolm Collins: Everyone knows a Tai Chi expert cannot compete with an MMA expert in actual combat, or a karate expert, or anything like that, right? So it's what are we optimizing for? We're optimizing for what is best for our children. And we'll go into how we built the system to do that.But it's, it's I feel an interesting analogy there.Yeah. Well, this is nice in theory, but if such an entity existed, how would it tell us? It would reveal itself as best it could. It would reveal to groups the truest iteration of itself they were capable of understanding and in those revelations leave hints of its true nature to those with the capacity for a more holistic understanding.Such an entity would find it impossible to reveal itself to Bronze Age humans. It even shows us this in the flows of history with the collapse of early monotheism that did not anthropomorphize its god in the form of Akhenaten. Instead, it bestowed blessings on the human tribe that had the closest intergenerationally [00:32:00] durable, accurate revelation of its nature, the Jews, and then revealed clearer iterations of itself through a succession of prophets.Simone Collins: I love this because it's an extension on this, like religion is best revealed to different audiences in different ways. So just as you know, religion is better revealed to children in a very simplistic, but it's such a colorful. Relatable way. It's a it would, of course, make sense that religion in the past and that religious truths in the past have manifest in ways to populations and locations in the past that are localized and appropriate.And of course. You know, the words and the scientific understandings that we have now are incompatible with the words that religions, you know, presented to people in the past when you only lived in a village and interacted with 15 other people and a cow, you know, you would need to use different metaphors.You need to use different story formats. [00:33:00]Malcolm Collins: They use a lot of pastoralist metaphors, right? You know, those aren't relevant to a modern audience. You look at The Bible and it's always talking about shepherds and stuff like no one's even seen a shepherd and I don't know, 50 years. But there's another thing here that I think is really important to note.So if you look at something like Judaism or Christianity or something like that when they conceive of God today, they, they do not answer for more fights him much. It would be seen as, is almost sort of blasphemous to answer for more fights. God is having sort of. Okay. Petty human emotions like anger and envy and stuff like that.That isn't the way that most of these traditions think that God really works these days. But also those traditions are at least ones that are like honest about their history. If you look at the early Jewish people. The first Jewish writings, the God that they believed in was an anthropomorphic God. It was very similar to a Zeus or something like that.It was the type of God who would get angry and flood the world. It was the type of God who had these lower order human emotions. [00:34:00] And so you may say, well, why didn't God just reveal its True self to these early humans. Why didn't it just reveal that you really shouldn't answer primarifies it this much?It is so far beyond the human capacity of understanding and an emotional states. And I think that God graciously to us today. Wrote into history why I didn't do it. It's you want to know why I didn't reveal a non anthropomorphic version of myself here, bam, ancient Egypt. I took literally the most powerful person in the world, probably at the time which was the Pharaoh of Egypt, easily the most powerful Pharaoh in modern day society, had him become a non anthropomorphized monotheist, and you saw exactly how long that lasted.Simone Collins: It was, hold on, I'm just checking to make sure. It was OG naan. He was married to Nefertiti, right? Yeah,Malcolm Collins: OG Naan. Yeah. That is why I didn't tell you. And so I think that many ways, like when I talk about did God plant this idea of the invisible hand of God in Adam Smith mind? Did God plant this with ACH [00:35:00] naan so that we today can examine history and learn why things were done in certain ways or weren't done in certain ways in terms of revelation?I believe, yes, but that's like the non atheistic interpretation or the atheistic interpretation. I'm, I'm looking at this as like the fourth, fourth evidence, but it's, it's, it's compelling. And I think that, yeah, it was God. And you'll see this throughout the system. When I think that many times that we ask, why wasn't this revealed earlier?Well, then go and investigate because it might've been revealed earlier. And you'll see that it wasn't intergenerationally durable. It revealed to that primitive stage of humanity. Well,Simone Collins: it also reminds me like the lesson that we learned when we acquired a business that had offices in two very different countries and cultures.The lesson that we learned where at first we were like, no, there is one way to manage people. It is the one right way. It is the way that you and I were taught in our various business school curricula and like culturally speaking. Right. And that is the, that is the way it could be cut as is correct.And then the people. [00:36:00] Who mentored us from whom we acquired the company, we're like, no, no, no. You know, in this, in this country, you have to crack the whip. You have to talk to everyone as a group. You have to be kind of like a jerk sometimes. And you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then like in the United States, it's very different.It's, it's very individualistic. You do this and that. And we're like, nah, like we're, we're just going to do it the right way across both offices. And it totally failed in that other culture, like our messages never landed and we were not helping our team thrive the way that they ought to be able to thrive until, you know, we completely changed our tactics and messaging and.Then it did. So this just reminds me of that. I thinkMalcolm Collins: that God is like that. God is like that.Simone Collins: If God wants humans to thrive, he's going to have to act in ways that work with their local cultural norms and social formations andMalcolm Collins: Well, and this, this next passage talks to this very explicitly. All right.Jesus was unique among the prophets in that he recognized the Jewish tribe's revelation was meant for everyone. All men died. It is not death that makes a man a [00:37:00] martyr, but living in accord with God's plan that does. Jesus also taught us that God, as a man, Must be martyred to sanctify mankind only through the generational martyrdom of individual men can maintain be sanctified and eventually join with God.I find this to be an almost impossibly elegant solution to communicate a beautiful and sophisticated truth of the universe to a man. Still so low and barbaric. God wanted to paint a picture of the martyr that sanctified mankind. Boast God's son, but also God still in human form. The moments in all our lives dedicated holistically to improving the future, dedicated holistically to God's plan.Jesus's life. What's the brush, his blood, the paint used to create the perfect portrait of the martyr for our species when we were still so young, so close to being just talking [00:38:00] monkeys that appealing to an all powerful entity with child sacrifice still seemed reasonable to us. This journey, the journey of understanding the Abrahamic peoples have followed, is beautifully painted by God within Abraham's life. We followed God believing him to be the kind of entity to demand a father sacrifice his child to be appeased.Yet he made it clear there at the very beginning that he is not that kind of entity. God did not tell a story in which he demanded a father sacrifice his son Because God wanted to, but because it was Abraham, what the Abrahamic people expected of a God in those early days of man, it is our barbaric expectations of an entity that only wants what is best for us, that makes him barbarous in our mind, when in reality him.God always gives us what we need to perform our roles in his plan. This shows us how God uses prophets. He uses their lives to paint motifs upon reality. [00:39:00] I find it interesting how it is easy for people to grasp that the story of the events of Abraham's life is not really about Abraham's life, but about us.But when we point out the same is true about the events of Jesus's life, people struggle with the concept. So I find this really telling, and this was a big realization for me as I was thinking about this, is that the story of Jesus, the story that didn't really make sense to me before, I was like, why would God Need to, , come down to earth make himself a man and then have man kill him in order to forgive man.Like, why not just forgive man himself, right? And why would Jesus sacrifice have a particularly strong meaning if Jesus knew that he wasn't really dying? He was just immediately coming back to life as the most all powerful entity to ever exist. And, and so many other things that didn't make sense when I, when I, when I recontextualized when I said, Oh no, the story of Jesus is supposed to be about like the story of [00:40:00] Abraham.It's supposed to tell us. A truth about ourselves. It's supposed to paint a motif upon reality. Jesus's life was the art itself. And this really changed how I related to this, but it also relates to this earlier point you were talking about. When God first revealed this truth to this, We as humans were such a barbaric and petty species that he needed to use the story of a father sacrificing his own son to appease a God, basically and, and yet the real God isn't like that at all.He doesn't need. Sacrifice of deities or humans or, or anything like that to be appeased. The sacrifice is a necessary process of human intergenerational improvement of us sanctifying ourselves because we really are now too sinful and too flawed to join God. We really do have to improve. And that improvement only happens with this cycle of martyrdom.Simone Collins: Right. So in other words, and this is very spicy, you're saying [00:41:00] Jesus was a figure to teach humans the importance of sacrifice in order to serve future generations of greater good. SacrificeMalcolm Collins: is a very complicated concept and in the next paragraph I get to, we'll talk about this complicated concept and I can leave it back with what we were just talking about.Finally, early Christianity revealed the truth of the Trinity, which is critical to understanding the agents of providence, God and man as three distinct entities, yet also the same entity. The agents of providence are so far beyond us as concepts, like a singular or plural identity, male or female, and even whether they are corporeal or incorporeal do not apply to them.Now, so this goes to what we were saying here. Things that like I didn't understand the purpose of the Trinity always felt weird to me, right? Like it's Okay, you're trying to say that it's really important that we understand that Jesus was holy God, but also not God at all. [00:42:00] And if you're trying it first, why is that an important concept?And if that's an important concept, why are you teaching that we're the Trinity, where you're adding this additional element, the Holy Ghost, which you just don't really talk about anywhere else. Or I don't understand why this is an important concept. The moment that I contextualized, like Jesus, man, that is holy God, but also not God, is supposed to be man himself.It's supposed to be man in the cycle of martyrdom. And not only that, but it's an entity that is both holy God and not God that must martyr itself to forgive man of his sins, to forgive man of the things that make him today not capable of joining this entity that exists outside of time. Every element of the story was 100 percent true.It was 100 percent profoundly true. It just wasn't a story about this individual whose life was being used to tell it. It [00:43:00] was a story about human history and us. So it wasn't just to teach the importance of martyrdom. It was also to teach this important concept, man. Is 100 percent God, but also 100 percent not God, then it also teaches this additional concept around the Holy Ghost, which I didn't understand before.I was like, what's the Holy Ghost? Why is this important? Why is it important? We understand the Holy Ghost is the agents of Providence. It's God in the plural. And in the singular, and then there's God in just a singular, which is God, and then there's God as man, which is Jesus, and it teaches us this concept.It's just we as a species. We're not prepared for and I'll go over this later. But when you take this new framing. To the story of Jesus's life, a bunch of events, which felt very nonsensical when I was reading them, like the temptation of Christ, right? It was like, you can have all these kingdoms if you bow down to worship me.That makes no f*****g sense. That makes no [00:44:00] sense. Jesus knew he was God. He already owned all those kingdoms. They already worshipped him. Why would he bow down to Satan in exchange for that? Oh, when Satan presumably wouldn't even have the power to do that outside of God. And even what Satan was offering him was, was trivial.You know, I'll, I'll, I'll use one of the later tracks, the analogy. I'm like, it's a bit like. A fired employee of Microsoft offering offering Bill Gates a burrito to bow down and worship him and live as his slave. It's no, that's it. And so the, the offer made there was an offer of trivial temptation.So why is it important that Jesus overcame it? When you recontextualize. The story of Jesus is being about us, being about our moments, being about how we must make actually very meaningfully sacrifices our lives, because as I say, all humans die. It's not death that makes us martyrs, it's how we choose to live.Our murder that intergenerationally sanctifies humanity and makes us worthy of God. So it's not just a story [00:45:00] about It's the whole story. The whole story is true and meaningful. Okay. I'll get to the next part. Okay. Unless you had something you wanted to talk about. No, go ahead. Muhammad was unique in his understanding that different revelations were for different communities quote.And indeed we have already sent forth in every nation, a messenger saying worship God and avoid false gods with this revelation. being for the Arabic community as made clear in quote, indeed, we have sent down as an Arabic Koran that you might understand in quote, with you here clearly being people who speak Arabic.Now some familiar with what Islam has devolved into might say. But don't Muslims believe very strongly that Muhammad was the last prophet? Yes, they do, which is weird, because he didn't say that. What Muhammad said was that he was the seal of the prophets, a phrase that in context [00:46:00] clearly means that he came to synthesize and affirm the teachings of the prophets who came before him.If he wanted to say he was the last prophet, he could have said that. He did not. So why did he use the rather odd and specific term, quote, seal of the prophets, end quote? Because he was referencing Manichean literature where this term means to prove a prophecy, i. e. a seal of authenticity.And this stuff is all cited here, this is like a well documented thing among historians. He is very clearly and explicitly saying that his prophecies build on the prophecies of the past and affirms those prophecies. However, in a way, Muhammad was the last of the prophets, insofar that he was the last of the mystical prophets who believed God spoke to them directly, with more recent prophets being logisticians, individuals who God communicates with through logic, science, and the writing of past prophets.The Wynwood [00:47:00] Reed, whose teachings we will focus on in track three, but there were many among the Protestant reformers as well. When man was still half savage, the only tool God had to communicate with him was what today we would call a psychotic episode. This form of revelation was severely limited when contrasted with how he reveals the truth today.So why,Simone Collins: why would early man, you know, only really find revelation through psychotic episodes where they start, you know, like they develop schizophrenia and they hear voices andMalcolm Collins: stuff. Well, God recorded that for us in history as well. You could say, what if a group tried to fully understand God just by exploring the natural world?I think this is what the Greek philosophers, the early Greek philosophers did. And they came to some truth through that exploration, but there were more profound truths like a monotheistic God, the dangers of idolatry and other truths that we'll get to as we continue to go through this that just could not be revealed to them through just like logistically [00:48:00] inspecting reality.So I think in. These, what I think of today, we would have called psychotic episodes individual seeing and hearing things that they they received information that could not be determined by early man through just an investigation of reality. But that later, when individuals with access to science and technology were studying what was in these early writings, they could see truths that weren't contained within them.This, to me, comes to something like Protestantism. I think Protestantism is the purest and truest form of practicing what is actually written in the Christian Bible. However, I also don't think that it is anything like any of the early Christian practices. And I think that people who have actually studied the early Christian practices would be capable of seeing that.It is individuals who had a more sophisticated philosophical understanding of reality. And, and frankly, we're, we're smarter than the early Christians who were able to go through these writings and see what God was actually telling them that these earlier [00:49:00] individuals was not. And as such, these early Protestant reformers to me are fully prophets.They are prophets to me at the same scale, you know, whether it's, you know, Martin Luther or John Calvin at the same scale as Jesus or Mohammed. And we argue later in our writings to me, they're actually. Perhaps even greater profits than those individuals, and they relied on God's gifts instead of having to have it basically laid out for them by God to determine what was true about reality.Simone Collins: Yeah, you're talking about profits is really interesting to me. It's kind of like, akin to. Inventors in the world of industrialism and technology with all these different moral inferences which I, I also find to be really interesting. So,Malcolm Collins: Muhammad's revelation of the prophet is important in that while Jesus revealed that the Abrahamic tradition was meant for all people, Muhammad understood that not the same iteration was made for all people.[00:50:00] Quote, so let the people of the gospel, e. g. the Torah, the Bible, et cetera, judged by what God has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what God has revealed in it are truly rebellious. We have revealed to you, Muhammad, this book was the truth as a confirmation of previous scriptures. And you can see here, again, this is a reoccurring motif in the Quran, and clearly what was meant by, quote, seal of the prophets, end quote, i.e. seal of authenticity. The Reformation revealed to us that the interpretation of God's will is the personal responsibility of the individual, it should never be outsourced to a bureaucracy. John Calvin taught us the truce of predestination was always hidden in Abrahamic scripture and that this does not conflict with free will.If this is a confusing concept to you, see the Base Camp episode, Can Determinists Believe in Free Will? Joseph Smith brought the first primitive understanding that it was man himself that eventually becomes God through martyrdom. As a note, we categorize Joseph Smith as a prophet of the logician [00:51:00] category.We explain why in tract five. This idea of iterative prophecy coming after Jesus is less inconsistent with traditional Christianity than one unfamiliar with the Bible might think, as even Jesus told us that there would be prophets after him. Quote, Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, some of whom you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, end quote.So take the prophets like Joseph Smith or Muhammad, who Many might say we should not include within the Abrahamic pantheon. Does this not seem like a prophetic description of them, both killed by other followers of the Abrahamic tradition? But how will we know which prophets are the real ones? Well, Paul tells us that in Thessalonians 5, 28 to 21, quote, Quench not the spirit, despise not prophesying, prove all things, hold fast which is good, abstain from all appearance of evil, end quote.Thus, to use essential bureaucracy to certify prophets is a rebellion to God's will, [00:52:00] as is denying the existence of prophets after Christ, even from the perspective of traditional Christianity. However, these prophets must also be tested. How this is done is discussed in track three.Now, a person might be asking, quote, How can you include individuals like Joseph Smith and Muhammad when we have stories like those of Helen Mar Kimball and Aisha Proving them of low moral character, end quote. Even if those stories about them are true, every single Abrahamic religion includes the story of King David, Uriah, and Bathsheba.This story teaches us without any shadow of a doubt that God does not take the moral character of an individual into account when deciding who he chooses as prophets. Do This criticism is important to dispel because the revelation brought by the Islamic branch of the Abrahamic tree of revelations is often the most peculiar to individuals who have not studied the Quran.How can multiple conflicting prophecies all be useful revelations from the same God? This is where our family's understanding of the quote unquote Tesseract God comes in. Each previous revelation was a full and complete revelation [00:53:00] insofar as those people could understand it. When people see contradictions between them, it is like pointing out that a cube leaves multiple irreconcilable two dimensional shadows.They are only irreconcilable because you assume the shape you are trying to create. out of them is two rather than three dimensions. A person trying to average the shadows cast by a three dimensional cube on a two dimensional plane would average them in a circle, a representation less accurate than any of the direct revelations and thus sinful.This is what Muhammad was saying in the Surah al Muhajirah. 4757. All of those of the Abrahamic face of his time were best following strict interpretations of the shadow that was revealed to them rather than attempting to average or convert between them. However, a person knowing that they are attempting to construct a three dimensional shape by looking at two dimensional shadows can come to an understanding beyond any individual revelation.A tesseract is a four dimensional cube, and while we can broadly understand its design and conceptually map [00:54:00] it, humanity lacks the biological hardware to fully conceive of a tesseract. The same is true as God, and thus it is our duty to intergenerationally improve that hardware. It is not blasphemous to expand human intellectual capacity through genetic and synthetic means, but a religious mandate to not engage with these technologies.To the full extent possible to not improve is to live an open rebellion to God's will.Simone Collins: So essentially you're saying that in addition to God being revealed to different populations in different places at different times in ways that they were capable of processing God to the best of their ability, you know, getting as close to the truth as possible. You're also saying that different religious traditions are also different because they're showing different sides of an incomprehensibly complicated god that really can't be articulated.With means that we're capable of digestingMalcolm Collins: and incomprehensible to to our limited human intelligence now. No, we have a commandment [00:55:00] from God to expand our ability to comprehend him. That is one of the things that he wants for us. And we argue why later. But actually, so you look at Islamic texts, right?And I think that Islamic texts almost demand this type of secondary revelation. So even if yeah. You, you assume whatever Islamic to this, this mystical, you know, he's the last of the mystical prophets. Well, there's clearly something not explained by the Koran because it seems pretty clear for me.If I actually read the text of the Koran. That Muhammad was saying that Christianity and Judaism are completely correct and their followers who follow anything other than Christianity and Judaism, even converting to Islam, they are truly rebellious to God, that you were supposed to follow the revelation that was to you.Yet we know today. Now, what some Muslims say is they go, Oh, yeah, but he said that. But since then, the Talmud, like the Jewish texts and the Christian texts have changed and that it used to be that these texts completely overlapped with the Quran, right? And that there was no contradictions between them.But this is categorically [00:56:00] untrue. We, we know we have found early iterations of the Bible from around that period from around where Muhammad lived and they haven't significantly changed. So he. Wrote this knowing God wrote this knowing that these were not reconcilable within a two dimensional plane within our human mind today.And we needed to develop a new system for understanding God. And in that this new system was prophesized within the Koran and saying that these things actually do all make sense together. We just today you're better off just following your traditions. Which is very interesting to me. Hmm. Yeah,Simone Collins: definitely.Malcolm Collins: However, we would be remiss to not point out the ancillary benefit of this interpretation. It makes it much easier to live alongside Abrahamic traditions without conflict. Groups typically attack those that are either very similar to them or very different, a distant but distinct ideological relation between groups.Servee to protect a minority population living amongst another group. This benefit is further fortified as the Tesseract God concept gives us a religious [00:57:00] mandate to guide those who might leave Abrahamic faiths back to conservative iterations of those faiths, while also protecting those communities from the dilution by the urban monoculture, making us a useful and non threatening player in a larger cultural ecosystem.This will be critical until after the affirmation mandate of in group intergenerational improvement is achieved, securing our safety.To be more specific, because we believe God shows his will through the competition of diverse ideas and perspectives, to create a monoculture, to have the whole world under one religion, is to silence the voice of God. Thus, we benefit from more ideological diversity within our community. We are only commanded to attempt to convert either those with so much rebellious vitality in their heart that they would never return to their parent phase, A.C. S., or Individuals of Exceptional Merit, with merit being measured in competence, industry, influence, or utility to the aims of our group. Your average person will be harmed by this interaction with God's word. [00:58:00] So, I mean, it's kind of an arrogant perspective, but I think everybody knows that we are a little arrogant and it doesn't make us much safer to be around other groups.And that most individuals within a group, we have a religious duty to prevent them from deconverting from the Abrahamic face and to build systems that make it Less likely that individuals deconvert from the Abrahamic phase. But this isn't to say, as previous, I believe, that we didn't have an individual to have any sort of outreach.I think we do. But the individuals we have outreach to are the individuals who, without us being here, would be deconverting to the urban monoculture. Or individuals that we specifically need to target for the goals of our community. Because we believe that humanity has a specific path it needs to be on.And sometimes that path may require Influence. Well, something like that. But generally, it's a community that we see is not targeting these individuals. And another unique thing of our community, which we'll talk about later, is you join a state, a part of your tradition. You would be a Jewish individual within our community, a Calvinist individual within our community, a [00:59:00] Catholic individual within our community.Your first and foremost source of biblical truth for you and your family is always going to be the branch of Abrahamianism that you came from. You just are there. Sort of opening yourself up to the idea that the other traditions may have held some truths that your tradition didn't. And we are trying to build a system that allows individuals, as we said, no central bureaucracy.We are just determining a system that an individual can use to determine what they think is true from examining these texts themselves.Simone Collins: I also get the impression that it's kind of impossible to be a person of intense faith and conviction without also being arrogant. And the only lack of Perceived arrogance in people with very strong faith comes out of a, an ancillary performative humility.That's part of the practicing of that faith though. That's like just additional social positioning, but I also see in like religious religiously driven. Humility, a huge amount of arrogance you know, people wearing sackcloths, people washing feet, people [01:00:00] acting as though, oh yes, you know, the, the meek shall inherit the earth, that, that is incredibly arrogant.SoMalcolm Collins: obviously as I come to actually believe this, it's not just something I've created for my family. I do believe I, I, I have some duty to at least like record it somewhere or something like that, because it seems like it explains a lot of stuff I didn't understand about Christianity when I was growing up and now it makes perfect sense to me.And I'm like, well, s**t, if I actually believe this, then I at least have to record it somewhere. But it also means that I believe that I have a. Understanding of God, to some extent, that's not held within these other communities. Yeah, but allSimone Collins: I'm saying is I don't think you can really do something and really believe in it without looking arrogant.So, it's just,Malcolm Collins: you know, this is not to say we see all iterations of these traditions as equal.In stagnant pools, parasites breed. If we allow our hearts, our traditions, or the flame of human intergenerational improvement to stagnate, parasites of the human spirit will erupt and siphon our vitality. We can see this in the Abrahamic traditions that have stagnated. Where have [01:01:00] their great thinkers gone?Their great scientists? Their great philosophers? Their spirits have been feasted upon by the very parasites they cultivated in pools of gold and vanity. God righteously removed his favor from them, and it is plain to any familiar with their past greatness. God does not hide his dissatisfaction with those who live in rebellion.God moves the focus of his favor with each successive revelation. God's favor reverberates throughout history like a sonic boom and is almost impossible to ignore. It can be used to both confirm the authenticity of otherwise questionable revelations, like Muhammad or the Reformation, deny the authenticity of others, like the Baha'i, and to find the locations of revelations that were not widely recognized in their time. For example, there was likely a yet unconfirmed revelation in Renaissance Italy. This trend pointed us to the most recent revelation, which happened in 1872, within the Victorian gentleman science community.[01:02:00]While we will go deeper into this revelation in future treks, the next we'll discuss demographic collapse in the context of God's plan for our species. Demographic collapse is not a capricious accident, but a critical part of God's plan for us. So, that's it. I, I find this last concept when I want to pontificate on a little bit because it's, it's, it's really important to me.I'm sort of confirming for me that this is an accurate revelation, this idea of an iterative revelation from God. When I look at history, typically after one of these revelations happens, this group ends up having enormous, keep in mind, this isn't a prosperity doctrine. We are not talking about financial wealth.This group. It has an enormous amount of philosophical and scientific wealth. You know, after the initial Christian revelation, after the initial Muslim revelation, after the Protestant Reformation, after the revelation of Wynwood Reed these communities exploded in their philosophical and scientific output, [01:03:00] in a level that is almost unimaginable.Thank you. inconceivable when contrasted with other groups, right? Like you're like, wow, like this was a genuine explosion of output. And then the output will succeed, go nowhere, like contrast Muslims during the period where they were such dominant forces in science that Western scientists would write their Papers with Muslim sounding pseudonyms because nobody took anyone else seriously to what the faith has become today.I don't know what I can call that other than God's favor turning from them. Now, and to me, this is 1 of the things that makes me really believe that this is true. You know, you see, this was a Catholic church when the Catholic church was so grand and it had all these great philosophers coming out of it.And then there's just this dearth of. Of genuine to me people are like, name some communities that God's eye has turned from and I hate to say it. I mean, I think it's most communities these days. I think the last place he had his focus was on the gentlemen [01:04:00] scientists of of the world of sort of the mid 1800s mid.1950s, and we saw an output from them that was to me really unparalleled except of what you see in other parts of. But what's interesting about this is it also allows you to look for revelations and confirm revelations. So they said in Renaissance Italy, there was probably one in Athenian Greece. There was probably some truths delivered to the people of Athenian Greece that kicked off this period of scientific explosion there.When I was editing this, I started thinking, okay, well then where else would that mean? There was probably a profit in history. And, , I got to thinking about Alexander, the great. , and then I was like, okay, so then what would the Alexander the great prophet be? And I was like, oh, obviously Aristotle, his personal tutor, Alexander.The great is what happens when you give someone.A prophet as their personal tutor.Malcolm Collins: And so this is something that. When I'm this is a very Protestantized system. Like I'm saying, I don't have the answers. I have this. System for [01:05:00] determining how you look for truth in reality, but the searching for truth it's not just up to the individual, it is a religious mandate of the individual to search for their own truth and to not have other people tell them what's true.I'm just giving like this system that I have that seems to have a lot of things make sense to me now that didn't make sense to me historically. And, and it is compelling to me religiously now when looking at my knowledge of history, I'm like this. Is really unaccountable through secular means this explosion of productivity.We see after every one of God's revelations. But it also allows you to add this element of science to it. Which is to say, when I say science, I mean, confirmability disproved ability. This is how you confirm a real revelation, or this is how you disprove a real revelation.Simone Collins: Well, and what you're saying to is when religions seem to be.When, when God seems to have looked favorably upon different faiths is when they did pursue in the name of religion, typically evidence based.Malcolm Collins: Innovation. Yeah, this is God's gift, it's logic, [01:06:00] it's philosophy, it's, it's, it's so you see how God benefits humanity and that God clearly values these things and these ways of approaching things.Simone Collins: Hmm.Malcolm Collins: That makes sense. I don't know. Did you find that compelling? OrSimone Collins: I mean, because as everyone loves to point out, we take such consequentialist views to everything. Of course, we're going to assume that the person who gets the good results is doing something right. And then look back through history and think, ah, these people got good results.What were they doing? Right. And then try to find patterns. SoMalcolm Collins: it's interesting that you say that. Cause to me, I almost view it as not really good results, but an explosion of human vitality. Like really living within these communities and and so to recreate that we need to refine God's word as we are commanded to do.And this is why you have this iterative prophecy is because God is turning his attention to the group that has the most accurate vision. Of what he was actually trying to communicate, but that vision requires time [01:07:00] and it requires exploration and it requires logic. It requires his gifts to logic and pragmatic logic to to figure it out.And yeah, I, I, I like that aspect as well, but it also allows our. Like faith to be disproven. If people don't choose this and if the people who choose it don't end up flourishing philosophically and intellectually, then we haven't actually stumbled upon anything true at all. This is just self masturbatory stuff within our family.So yeah.Simone Collins: Well, I think this is quite interesting and I look forward to going through the next ones with you. Glad you're finally breaking it down. Well,Malcolm Collins: I love you encouraging me to do this stuff and talking through this with me and dealing with my like religious nerdiness, which is not what you married into.You didn't know you were,Simone Collins: no, like these past two weeks has been exactly what you and I are all about. That, that you do out there, a high risk, highly speculative thinking and strategizing and planning and philosophizing, and I'm out there doing. Highly repetitive, incredibly dumbed down work [01:08:00] like knocking on doors and asking people for signatures.That's what we do. So I'm really glad that like when I was doing extra of what I do best, which is just repetitive grunt work, you were out there doing what you do best, which is, you know, highly intellectual.Malcolm Collins: Well, I'm sorry if some of this has been repetitive for other people, but I'm trying to canonize like idle ideas I've had on my show.And so I need to, you know, put them into this condensed format here. So thank you for your time today. I love you. It's good to hear. Love you too. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

The podcast discusses the divergence of wages and productivity in the 1970s, driven by globalization, outsourcing, automation, and women entering the workforce. It explores the impact of leaving the gold standard in 1971. The hosts also touch on AI-generated entities, the risks of AI therapists, and the need for diverse and specialized communities in the face of technological advancements.

Exploring the growing gender divide in political parties, theories of sexual gatekeeping and bureaucratic optimization, decline of democracy in the U.S., and the potential road towards autocracy or empire. Also, discussing the correlation between economic productivity and individual contributions, the indifference and polarization in American society, and the dismissal of the pandemic among smart individuals. Touching on fears, gratitude, and misconceptions about relationships with intelligent women, as well as discussions on subscriptions, victim blaming, and expressions of love.

We discuss how child support laws may be contributing to a form of human speciation by enforcing reproductive isolation between high and low income groups. We explore the two main reproduction strategies - having lots of kids due to lack of contraception/impulse control vs having resources to support kids. Historically, some genetic drift occurred between the strategies but child support laws now punish the wealthy from straying, preventing gene flow. We cover how you see a U-curve in fertility by income, touch on ethical considerations, and the damage from affirmative action.Simone Collins: [00:00:00] I almost feel like there's been speciation culturally, like even within generations. So there's not like a genetic incompatibility, but we've reached a point at which like some groups are now so culturally and like.Um, worldview incompatible that they're almost like different species. Like each of them will view the other, like an animal that they cannot comprehend and that cannot possibly have a soul because they're so different. And they don't make any sense. And they cannot empathize with them and they, they will not see them as human.And that really scares me because when you get that level of. A, a lack of ability to empathize or relate to other groups. That's when you start seeing atrocities, that's when you start seeing violence. And I, I very much worry about it.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone.Simone Collins: Hello, gorgeous. Okay, so remember that day where you gave me this tweet to edit and I edited it and I had no idea what you're talking about and then I I I tweeted it and then Subsequently deleted it because you're like you [00:01:00] completely ruined my point and I didn't understand your point at all because your point Then I find this very intriguing is that child support could cause human speciation.Walk me through this,Malcolm Collins: Malcolm. Okay, so, and not child care, which she changed it to, which is a nonsensical statement. Child care could not cause human speciation. None of this made sense toSimone Collins: me, though. So, help.Malcolm Collins: Help. So, this involves understanding how speciation happens in animals and how humans bred in a historical context.So, first, let's talk about speciation in animals. There are two core types of speciation. You could either have something called geographic isolation or something called behavioral isolation. Geographic isolation happens when something like you have a population of deer and then a stream starts to form between them and then the stream gets bigger and bigger and bigger and eventually becomes a river or like two continents drift apart or something like that or an animal gets stuck on an island in the middle of nowhere.What you're [00:02:00] having in all of these instances is two populations of the same species have become genetically isolated from each other. So mutations that are happening in one part of the species are no longer drifting to the other part of the species. So typically if you have a population of animals and they're all interbreeding with each other, any beneficial mutation is going to increase within the species as a whole.Right? You know, it will begin to spread throughout all members of the species and then in, in, in, you know, help the species as a whole. But if it's isolated with two populations, you might have some beneficial mutations spreading within this group and other beneficial mutations spreading within this group.And now, these two groups end up having sort of a new optimal state in which different types of beneficial mutations are benefiting each group because they are, Utilizing different ecological niches are utilizing different strategies to take advantage of their ecological niche. Now, this is a form of [00:03:00] speciation that most people are familiar with if you're studying evolution at like a child's level, like this is how it's often explained.But then you also have behavioral isolation, which is, maybe even more common as a form of speciation. Behavioral isolation happens when one of the mutations ends up isolating the portion of the population that has it from the rest of the population at a breeding level. So let me give an example here that's very easy to understand.Suppose you have a nocturnal species and then some behavioral trait like mutation causes a portion of that species to become only active during the day. These two populations can be living in the same area, but essentially They're no longer interbreeding. Yeah, completely genetically isolated from each other.And this, this happens more common where, where we're actually, or like you have a change that causes a change in what some of the females look like in a species. And it turns out that some of the males in that species still like [00:04:00] this and some of the males don't still like this. I mean, so then you have sort of sexual behavioral isolation, right?What behavioral isolation looks like, or it might be instead of nocturnal versus day, it might be that, it's a species of turtles, right? And this species of turtles would always go to this one little island or, or place to breed and have sex, right? And lay eggs. But then this other faction within the turtles is okay with having eggs anywhere!Then you have Isolation of those two groups, right? Or they have slightly different navigational prospects coded into them due to a mutation and that causes them to breed on a different beach. Now you have behavioral isolation, which is also sort of geographic isolation and an interesting way because they're not actually geographically isolated.So. What behavioral isolation looks like classically within a population cluster is you have some genetically linked trait, and then you have a sort of U curve on a graph. So what that means is for individuals who have a lot of The trait on this side, they're having a lot of kids [00:05:00] for individuals have a middling amount of this genetically linked trait.They have very few kids for people on the other side. They have a lot of kids. That is what behavioral isolation looks like. That is the graph we see. With IQ or well, not IQ, but earning potential, at least yeah, wealth and fertility and wealth has a high correlation with things like IQ, things like educational attainment things like all sorts of genetically linked traits and interestingly, it doesn't just go to that, it goes to the other genetically linked traits so you see this in things like weight, for example the people who have the most kids aren't just, the least wealthy kids are also the most obese people.And this is obesity, not just at like the accidental obesity level, but at the polygenic risk score. So at the, my genetics, obesity level, the polygenic risk score is a track with obesity. Now keep in mind this is not due to some sort of difference in metabolic rate humans, even within like two standard deviations of the standard [00:06:00] metabolic rate only really differ by like, 200 calories a day.This is due to self control reasons.Simone Collins: Well, yeah, or, or when exposed to highly processed food, people with a certain collection of genes appear to have less ability to not overindulge,Malcolm Collins: right? Yeah. And I, I say this as somebody who believes that I have a genetic predilection for a specific susceptibility to types of alcohol addiction.So I am not saying that, like, I am above this, but this is a different type of addictive process, which is not discorrelated with Wells, which is an interesting thing. Like, if you look at most of the most impactful people in human history they drink a ton. Like, a ton. Like, a ton more than normal people, whether it's Alexander the Great or Kublai Khan, or Churchill it's just something you see throughout history, and youSimone Collins: don't know why.Malcolm Collins: I don't know if it's something to do with the deficiency in this pathway gives one an advantage within certain types of leadership roles or if it's that the [00:07:00] pathway is has some sort of genetic. Okay, so hold on. I'll explain something that can happen with genes sometimes. Sometimes a beneficial gene is like right next to you.Okay. A bad gene on, on like the way that the human genome is coded. And so it means that most mutations that are selecting for the beneficial gene also select for the bad gene. It wouldn't be surprising to me if alcoholism propensity, Is somewhere on that was in the genetic strand, or it could be that it's literally the same gene.Like, it's literally the same part of the neurochemical pathway that leads to these advantages that cause an Alexander the Great or a Kublai KhanSorry, I admit to say OGA daikon. ICAN here. Actually funny story he's. Counselors became so worried about his copious. They made a rule for him that he could only drink one glass of wine a day. And so he had a giant challenge fashioned that could hold multiple gallons of line in rebellion to this rule.Malcolm Collins: or a Winston ChurchillA lot of people don't seem to realize how much Winston Churchill [00:08:00] drank. , so for example, if we're just talking about champagne, Winston Churchill consume 42,000 bottles of Paul Rogers champagne from 1908 to 1962. Never switching to another brand that breaks down to around two to three bottles per day on average. There's reports of him during the war period.For example, having six scotches before dinner, on top of other beverages, , he would often, , He wake up with a pole, Roger champagne for breakfast, then another pint at lunch. , and then a 10 ounce. A series of 10 ounce glasses of scotch and whiskey for dinner. , and several more glasses of whiskey as nightcaps., so I think we did the math on this and one of our books, because we got like a thing and he drank the equivalent of, I think it was like, Four and a half bottles of hard liquor a day.Uh, so a lot, a lot.Malcolm Collins: are causing but that's a completely different thing. We're going to get to, this is not correlated with obesity. Obesity is not correlated with outside leadership or economic success is actually inversely [00:09:00] correlated with it.But actually what you're seeing here within the, the, the, the human genome is two strategies for reproduction that are both successful in our current socioeconomic environment. Now, the problem is, is that the high wealth strategy, you need to be extremely wealthy. You only get above repopulation rate, again, at least within the US if your family is earning over half a million a year.But as you go up from there your fertility rate just gets higher and higher and higher. Now, my suspicion has been that this dual optimization around fertility strategies might have been the case for a long time in human history but it wasn't relevant. And this is where child support comesSimone Collins: in.We're getting to it.Malcolm Collins: My, so anyone who's familiar, one of my favorite sort of sex books for learning about the history of sexuality is My Secret Life. And it was written by a Victorian noble about his sexcapades going around. They might've been pre Victorian but it was, it was early, you [00:10:00] know.ISimone Collins: think it was Victorian and he, and this was in across different cultures.Can different continents. The man covered a lot of ground in manyMalcolm Collins: ways. And he talked about how he would sleep with peasant girls and where, how peasant girls were different from sleeping with noble girls and how you could convince a girl you met like farming in a field to sleep with you. It had like a full strategy for like every, it was like, Oh, innkeepers daughters.This is how you seduce innkeepers daughters. This is what innkeepers daughters are like in bed. But this man was clearly in this, you know, upper class community, right? And I should point out when I'm talking about like, upper class communities, they are remarkably persistent intergenerationally, even when the odds are really against it.One of the most shocking studies that I had ever seen was looking at in China. So people who don't know how Thoreau, the Chinese revolution was it created a societal inversion read the red scarf girls, really great book at showing how bad it was for people there. If you're interested in this. But in China when they went through the cultural revolution, the amount of wealth, a family had had [00:11:00] before that in the amount of social and political power, the family had had was inversely correlated to their new status.Whereas farmers were the highest status individuals and the former wealthy were abused and really. Just like it was horrifying the lifestyle they had to go through. They had nothing and they now became basically the untouchable cast of society. What is shocking is that if you look at the CCP today, after a few generations of this, it was something like 85 percent of the leadership cast of the CCP comes from families that were previously In the well, thisSimone Collins: untouchable intellectual class slash,Malcolm Collins: you know, from the dynasty period of China,Simone Collins: I think similar findings resulted from looking at like post Soviet social composition as well.So in, in, in a couple of different cases, it has been found that families that had a lot of wealth and or power or influence and then had that. Removed then within a few generations [00:12:00] after the exogenous corrective mechanism was removed found themselves once again and decisions of wealth and power andMalcolm Collins: again, we're just like signing like objective research here.Like, you can go out, you can find this research like this is not like these days. CanSimone Collins: you find this research? None of you want to chat GPT, none of you Google it. I mean.Malcolm Collins: Well, I think you can Google it these days still. I don't think they scrubbed the internet of this, but I'll see when I'm doing the episode.Cause I often try to post like pictures of it and maybe it's all gone now. I think ISimone Collins: still have the links. I really, we can try to add these to the show notes cause I really don't know if people are going to be able to find it otherwise.Malcolm Collins: So what you had historically is you have these two different reproductive strategies, but they weren't completely behavioral.The reason they weren't behaviorally isolated is because women are often unfaithful to their husbands. As you know, you know, we've talked about, then this is study is inflated because it was looking at what guys who thought their wives had cheated on them. But when we go to something like a third of, of kids, when the husband wasn't sure actually [00:13:00] turned out to be from another guy.I think population overall, it's something like 3 percent or 5 percent or something like that. It really is quite low. I mean, that's not low from a genetic standpoint, from a genetic standpoint, that's not low. You cannot have a behavioral isolation. If you have 5 percent of the time guys who think that they're in one group are actually raising the kids of people in the quote unquote rich group or upper class or whatever strategy.So you have two strategies here. One is a strategy that is primarily. focused on getting people to breed either because they couldn't figure out contraception. They couldn't prevent somebody from sleeping with them, or they lacked the self control to not have sex when they didn't want to have kids.And then the other group is a group that is having lots of kids because they have lots of resources. And, and there are. Obviously, these two groups have almost nothing in common in terms of what makes you successful within both of these strategies from a genetic selection standpoint. Well, child [00:14:00] support, which is a very interesting phenomenon, that is almost universally implemented.It is implemented literally, like if there were a few, or not a few, but a good chunk of countries that didn't do it, like a third of the world that didn't like really egregiously and effectively do child support, where a large portion of this well, see. strategy we're living it wouldn't be effective because you'd still have the genetic drift between the two populations.But it is really an all encompassing thing, and it is extremely punishing to anyone who is in the high wealth generation group who ends up dallying from people within their group. They, they suffer extreme penalties, both to their ability to secure partners within that group and their quality of life.And they're often not going to have that many more than like one child outside of that group. Now, this causes problems. When I first mentioned this, you're like, well, what about basketball players?Simone Collins: Yeah, like they're the classic example of [00:15:00] like, you know, wealthy people who are then obligated to pay child support who still end up seeming to do it a lot.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I, I would argue in this case that they're almost sort of the exception that proves the rule that you know, sports stars are one, not normally genetically optimized for this group. Whereas this group is typically optimized for industry, right? Whereas sports stars have a, an elite an elite insofar as like their, their genes.It's theirSimone Collins: physical prowess that gets wealth and influence. Not their mind. That's what you're saying. It'sMalcolm Collins: a different optimization function. And it's an optimization function that can arise. I think at equal rates in both of the behavioral groups, it can arise both accidentally was in the group that is focused on.The, the, the lower income group and the higher income group. And so, yeah, this is a path for genetic transfer [00:16:00] between the two groups but it's not a robust path for genetic transfer between the two groups because it's such a relatively rare and odd phenomenon. And the sports stars that succumb to it are typically those who came out of the lower income.By that, what I mean is they're often those who lack a level of self control. When you enter like a lot of sports these days, like NBA and stuff like that they warn you, like there's courses about how women will like invert condoms that you use, how women will try to trick you to get pregnant, how women would.It was a really, I mean, it's such a prodigious problem that it's something that they put a lot of effort into training people to avoid. Yeah, yikes. So people who don't avoid it are, I don't want to say like intentionally not avoiding it, but theySimone Collins: either lack They were warned. They were given fair warning,Malcolm Collins: you're saying.The self control or the, the future planning abilities, or they just don't care. Which is a problem, but it also means that you're also then not dealing [00:17:00] with, because remember I said that people can enter this group of elite physical specimens from either of the two communities but it, but the only communities that are really getting tricked by this are the ones that enter it from the lower income community because the, the other cluster of genetic traits, like low impulse control and stuff like that, that's clustering was in that community as a successful reproductive strategy And I should be clear around all of this.I have no animosity towards either of these groups. I'm just pointing out a phenomenon. These things are genetically linked, and these are two stable, successful genetic strategies and I think that in, in many ways, both of them can add to the betterment of our species, but it is worth calling out that we are, and this isn't a good group and a bad group.Like this is the, I want to be clear about that. However, one group is more likely to be economically successful because that is the core thing that's differentiating them. And that is, [00:18:00] and also I should note that this isn't particularly ethnically clustered. Ethnicities exist.Simone Collins: No, it seems to show up across nations.Yeah, but then are you implying that like the child support is on a broad societal level, something that you could say worsens class divides and income gaps because when you didn't have that, you would have like very very high agency, very high intelligence, high grit high hustle people occasionally.inserting genetic copies, partial genetic copies of themselves into low economic opportunity parts of the population. Thereby giving those groups, like, an end to higher resources, like, as,Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah. Well, it was preventing a level of genetic [00:19:00] isolation and, and I should note, and to be realistic here, there are cultural differences between different ethnic communities.that can lead to them being more susceptible to certain practices. So, for example, if you take the Black community, right, like there is definitely a lot of our Black friends that are like really educated, really smart and they are not going to go out sleeping with random women, regardless of their ethnicity, because they understand the cost of that to them.But they lack one avenue that our white friends have due to cultural pressures, which is that the black successful women we know that can't find a partner but still want to have kids white women will often just, you know, use their gay friend's sperm or something like that, and then have kids and care for them as a single mother, whereas the stigma against black single mothers among black successful communities is so strong that many of our black female friends who are Genetically, like strongly in this, like, super [00:20:00] successful, super competent community are choosing not to have kids.And so I think that it's also important to think about the social pressures that you create as a community. And it's also something that I would encourage, you know, to our black successful female audience. I understand the stigma that's, that's, that's facing you, but you are doing a disservice to your community by not having kids.And I would encourage you to go out and do that because I know there's a lot of you because we know. a number of our black female friends who really want to have kids, but they just can't find a guy that is of their level. And, and, and to be clear, this is also like, a huge problem if the community is, is, is monitoring status in different ways.Whereas, you know, ultra competent individuals may, if they're male, may see different avenues than the classic educational avenue that makes them look like good partners for these women. So maybe expand your boundaries of what you think is acceptable.Simone Collins: Not just by employer and [00:21:00] university and income level.Malcolm Collins: Well, another thing I also noticed within this community is they're more height sensitive than our white friends. Oh boy. Yeah. Which I feel likeSimone Collins: all women are way too height sensitive, but yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah, all women are way too height sensitive, but I would say that height sensitivity and partner selection differs between cultures and cultures differ between ethnic groups.And I, are there any,Simone Collins: wait, are there any cultural groups with a female population? that is cool with dating men shorter than them. I mean, I will admit that like in modern society, women are insane. It's not like, please at least match my height or be a little bit taller, but instead just be insanely tall no matter how short I am.IMalcolm Collins: have not noticed as much pickiness around it in Hispanic and East Asian populations. It's not that they have no care for it at all. They care like, like all humans do, but they are not as hard lying about it as,Simone Collins: But could that be because there are more likely to be [00:22:00] income disparities between men and women?Because the one thing that clearly makes height a no. non issue is a lot of wealth.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, actually, I think that that is what probably makes it. The communities where you see height mattering the most for women, actually, that's a really interesting phenomenon. It's the communities where there is more income equality between men and women, because within both the black and the white communities, there's noSimone Collins: longer income disparities that can make up for the shortness.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're much more likely to have income inequality between genders, and that's probably what explains the phenomenon. Very clever, Simone! I'mSimone Collins: not taking credit for that. Well, and there'sMalcolm Collins: even more inequality within the elite black communities. I notice that, like, elite black women tend to slightly out earn elite black men.Yeah, at least in our anecdotal experience yeah, this phenomenon.Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think that's also because, and this is like a weird institutional bug that may not last forever. The elite black men that we know are far [00:23:00] more likely to themselves be entrepreneurs or pursuing very risky investment.Political nonprofit, whatever ventures, right? Like they're not, they're not doing the thing that's going to earn a lot of money. And then the very successful black women that we know are far more likely to be employed by a large corporation that is going to give them disproportionate value because not only are they incredibly high caliber and smart, but they also thank God are not a white male because they desperately need to not hire white males anymore.You know what I mean? So they're going to be paid a premium.Malcolm Collins: The genetic damage that the affirmative action is causing to the American black community in that if you are an ultra competent, ambitious black person, you are much better off going into bureaucratic roles than you are going into entrepreneurial roles because you have an advantage within those roles due to affirmative action.Simone Collins: Well, and the affirmative action is, is also very annoying because to a great extent, these roles that are being offered. I don't see a whole lot of opportunity. And this is a complaint we constantly hear [00:24:00] from these same high caliber women that like they have been, they've been welcomed into these institutions.They are being paid extremely generously and no one is listening to them. OhMalcolm Collins: yeah. No, no, no. It's really interesting. What happens to people is this is weird little honey trap where they get up to a level within these corporations, you know, whether it's, you know, Google or Cisco or whatever. Right. Where they now.Are extremely powerful, extremely well paid bySimone Collins: society. They're not extremely powerful. They're, they're making a lot of money and they're in a very prestigiousMalcolm Collins: high status, but they cannot leave the job to do an entrepreneurial pursuit because, you know, it would be such a cost to them given everything that they've been afforded from this bureaucracy.The opportunitySimone Collins: cost financially isMalcolm Collins: too high. Yeah, but they actually have a floor. Preventing them from entering real leadership roles. They can enter token leadership roles, but not real leadership roles.Simone Collins: Because talk about a trap, like that is so damaging, like not all. So the only thing that affirmative action is giving to some [00:25:00] people in some cases, and it's typically people who already come from somewhat privileged backgrounds, but happened to be the right.Yeah, checkbox. They're giving some opportunities, but they're not giving them power. They're not giving them influence. They're not getting them satisfaction and they're not giving them high fertility culture. So this is really bad. This isMalcolm Collins: really bad. It's like a mouse trap for, for these communities.It's, it's, it's, it's horrifying. ErasingSimone Collins: their best and brightest. What onMalcolm Collins: earth? I, I, yeah, I find it genuinely repulsive because these communities produce some really interesting orthogonal thinkers who don't think like the communities that are often most likely to go into you know, entrepreneurship and stuff like that, because it's, it's through orthogonal thought that you can now compete with an entrepreneurship, which is one of the reasons why first generation immigrants do so well.But I wanted to end this particular topic with a shout out for something one of our listeners is doing. Because one of our listeners reached out to us and we always try to promote when they're working on something that's like aligned with our work. So this [00:26:00] organization is, if you wanted to report, so I think that it was started with the motivation of like, really unfair things happening within family courts and stuff like that.But, but to quote him, you know, if you want to report a woke teacher or school board member. This is your opportunity to shine. And every time somebody Googles their name, they will live in infinity. No more denials . This will be our chance to shine.And, and other people can give reviews to these individuals. So basically. Once somebody does something really egregious from like a woke perspective, there isn't a good mechanism to snap back against them right now was in the bureaucracy, right? There is no counterpoint to this. There is no. Real punishment for going overboards in terms of cultural imperialism, which is what we see on the left right now, the belief that their culture is naturally superior to all other cultures, and that everyone else is basically just savages in their wake and must have their [00:27:00] cultures awaked, erased, and that they are only uplifting the children by taking them from their families, because that is how.Always a great thing to think. That always makes you look good in the eyes of history. But the name of his website, if you want to check this out again, I haven't really vetted this project that much, but it sounded reasonable to me, okay? Is familylawaccountability. com, and I'll put that on the screen here.And I think that that's a cool project and I wanted to talk about it was in this episode because I figured a lot of people who are having trouble with child support systems and unfair courts and stuff like that might click on an episode titled something around child support. Interesting.Simone Collins: Cool.Thanks for sharing that. I hadn't heard of thatMalcolm Collins: yet. Yeah, well, it's a, it's a good project. Like I'm genuinely, I'm like, yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. You know, he's not out here asking us to promote him or something. Fair. Anyway, I love you to death, Simone, and I'm so, I found this episode pretty entertaining.Simone Collins: Yeah, I'm glad you explained this to me in [00:28:00] greater detail, because I was obviously so confused when you first explained this to me, because sometimes thinking is really hard.Malcolm Collins: Do you think that it could, that it's actually a phenomenon that we're seeing that didn't exist historically? Or do you think I'mSimone Collins: hallucinating?I think that you can see levels of, of even human speciation historically, not, not in terms of like, oh, they can't interbreed anymore, but like to a certain extent, I almost feel like there's been speciation culturally, like even within generations. So there's not like a genetic incompatibility, but we've reached a point at which like some groups are now so culturally and like.Um, worldview incompatible that they're almost like different species. Like each of them will view the other, like an animal that they cannot comprehend and that cannot possibly have a soul because they're so different. And they don't make any sense. And they cannot empathize with them and they, they will not see them as human.And that really scares me because when you get that level of. A, a lack of ability to empathize [00:29:00] or relate to other groups. That's when you start seeing atrocities, that's when you start seeing violence. And I, I very much worry about it. So, yeah, I mean, this is an important thing to think about and to keep an eye out for.And it's great to know some mechanisms that might make it worse. .Malcolm Collins: Yay. I love you, Simone. And I'm, I love you too. I'm so fortunate that I don't need to worry about child support with you,Simone Collins: Yeah, I think we're gonnaMalcolm Collins: be okay. . Oh goodness. All right. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Malcolm, Simone, and controversial writer Raw Egg Nationalist have a far-ranging discussion on where humanity may be headed in the future. They talk about a potential split between high willpower "physical elites" and "cognitive elites", compared to a drugged up underclass losing agency and personal responsibility. Other topics include fertility correlates, the failures of trad-con thinking, why kids need protection from indoctrination, targeting of dissidents' children, and more.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Malcolm Collins here with Simone, and we are joined by raw egg nationalists. I would be very surprised if there are members of our audience who don't know who he is. But, he, he, he's a really an influencer and sort of the conservative lifestyle space, specifically focused on trying to raise awareness around the feminization of the male body due to things like endocrine disruptors,if you. Want to follow him on Twitter. His, his at is baby gravy nine and he's written five books at this point He's got a sub stack you can check out and yeah Man's world magazine. Oh, yes, of course man's world and it's gonna have a physical edition soon I've heard which is pretty cool. I'd like to see that in stores The the powers that be well probably never let that happen.So long as it keeps being honest but the topic that I wanted to focus on today was where do you think [00:01:00] society is going like 500 years in the future? And you can chart this in steps, like where you think things are going in 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, et cetera. So let's go.Raw Egg Nationalist: Well, it's, it's great to be back.We had such a wonderful conversation last time. I'm, I'm sure this is, this is going to be fantastic too. So, fundamentally, I think I have a, I have a kind of HG Wells esque vision of the future. I think what we're going to see is we're going to see a kind of, a kind of split. In the human race, I think, I mean, I like to, I'm an, I'm an optimist, or I try to be an optimist in many ways about people's ability to take control of their lives.You know, I mean, I tell people, look, there are simple things that you can do. You're overweight, you can lose weight. You know, you, you can stop eating as much food as you're eating. You can get active, you can reduce your exposure to endocrine disruptors, and you know, you can transform your life. You will be, if you do that, you will be unrecognizable [00:02:00] in a year.Three years, five years, you'll be a totally different person on my slightly less optimistic days. And I do think that actually there is a large segment of the population that now we'll find it impossible not to be. enormously unhealthy, to be dysgenically unhealthy. And, I mean, you only need to look at the emergence of drugs like Azempic, for instance, Wegovy, you know, these, these fat loss miracle, miracle drugs that are being marketed now.You know, I mean, they're being explicitly marketed on the, on the assumption. That the majority of people just can't lose weight any other way. Yeah. We, we can't reform society in, in ways that will make it easier for people to make the right choices. And so what you have to do is you have to rely on pharma to do it.So that's, so this is, this is really where I think it comes in. I think there will be a, there will be fundamentally, I don't know at [00:03:00] what point, maybe it's happening right now. There will be a kind of selection event almost where people with willpower will kind of... We'll kind of break away from the rest of society into a kind of, a physical elite, I think.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I, I, one thing I want to add to this, because I think it's really interesting, and this, for me, has been a big turnaround in my relationship with people of Rotundity. Which is contextualizing for myself that obesity is about as genetic as IQ, so very genetic, like 0. 8. However, it does not appear from my research that this level of genetic correlation with obesity is due to any biological change.It's not like these people have higher or lower metabolism. Actually, human metabolism does not change that much. It would make a difference if you're going, like, two and a half standard deviations from the norm of, like, 200 calories a day. So, like... a candy bar and that's it. So what, what is really then happening here with obesity?[00:04:00] I think to what you're getting is that willpower is enormously genetic. And so it would make sense what you're talking about. If you begin to have. People separating out, you will have, and I think that this is very different from what a lot of people anticipate, which is like, oh, society will split into like a high IQ and low IQ group, whereas you're saying no, it's going to split into maybe a high willpower, low willpower group, which I could see, I'd be I'd be much more interested in marrying a high willpower person than a high IQ person.Simone Collins: Well, I think the, what's going on with Osempic and we go via all the semi glutide interventions is it really does demonstrate that this is a willpower thing. Why is that the case? Well, these don't actually slow your metabolism. They make you feel less hungry. So what they're really controlling is willpower in a sense and not, not actual metabolism, which is really, in fact, they're, they're adversely affecting your metabolism because when you lose so much weight, your metabolism drops and then people go off it.And of course, they gain weight super fast because their body's like, Oh, we're starving.Raw Egg Nationalist: So yeah. [00:05:00] And, and what, and what also happens is of course that that there've been a couple of studies that have showed this, but you don't just lose fat, you lose muscle. Yeah. And mu and muscle is much more metabolically expensive to maintain than fat.So actually, oh, you lose, you lose 200 pounds or whatever, but you've actually lost a huge amount of skeletal muscle and then you, unlessSimone Collins: you're actively weight training while you're losing. Yeah, like there are some like nerds who are definitely going for that. Like they're really like, they're aware of the problem, but you don't.Like, that's like, first off, if you're disciplined enough to lift weights while you're going through this, then you're probably not the kind of person who absolutely needs to use dem semaglutide. No,Raw Egg Nationalist: exactly. So it's. But what they're, and what they're talking about as well is they're talking about using Azempic and other GLP 1 receptor agonists.That's the class of drugs that Azempic belongs to. They're talking about using them now to treat other forms of addiction. They're talking about using them to treat alcoholism, for instance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,Simone Collins: I was just having a conversation with an obesity doctor and [00:06:00] another super smart guy about this.And for example, we've had naltrexone forever to treat alcoholism and a bunch of other forms of addiction, but people don't really like how it makes them feel, right? Cause nothing's really that much fun. And you know, these, these new, this new class of drugs is. a lot more pleasant to use, even though there are some unpleasant side effects.So yeah, it could have a really interesting effect. And it is interesting. I want to see a lot more research on the effects that these do have, even like people have, I don't know how, how much this is anecdotal for people or a placebo effect, you know, reporting less time on social media, less time gambling, et cetera.It's super interesting.Raw Egg Nationalist: Well, the side, the side effects of, of semaglutide and these other drugs are very interesting. I've written a written. quite, quite length about them. I wrote a piece, I wrote a piece for American Mind called Fatty's Little Helper. And it was, I mean, I talked at length about the side effects in particular and they're nasty.They're really nasty. And people are, people are starting to realize now. So one of the, one of the [00:07:00] increased risks from a Zempik is inhaling the contents of your stomach. So, if you, yeah, so, a Zempik, it, normally your stomach empties in a few hours, and what a Zempik does is it, is it slows the movement of food out of your stomach, to a rate of, I mean, it basically doesn't move at all, and in fact, you can get stomach paralysis, but it might take three weeks for your stomach to empty, rather than Oh, three weeks?Yeah. So what happens is if you're, if you're fat and you are on a Zempik, you're probably, I mean, hugely fat. Now you're likely to have a gastric bypass as well. They're recommending bariatric surgery in, in conjunction with use of a Zempik. Well, you lay, you lay down on the table. Your stomach is still full, and, and so the gastric juices and the food in your stomach comes back up out of your throat and you inhale it into your lungs and you can, you can die.Okay. But that is, that is called gastroparesis. Wow. Gastroparesis. No,Malcolm Collins: [00:08:00] it's well, I, I imagine these people, they don't adapt to the new behavior immediately, so they're probably overeating for their new digestive.Raw Egg Nationalist: I don't, yeah, but that's a, so that's a se that's a serious risk. The other risk is of chronic obstructive chronic obstructions in the, in the intestines.So they reckon that that might be how Lisa Marie Presley died, or Priscilla Presley, I forget which, which she had. She'd been on a mega, a mega weight loss drive before the premiere of the new Elvis film. And she had already had bariatric surgery because she'd struggled with weight in the past.Bariatric surgery scars the intestines and it can make them sort of ruckle up almost. And it makes it harder for food to pass through. Well, then you take a Zempig as well. And I just slows to us, the food. basically doesn't move and you get an obstruction and that's how she died. She died of a, of a bowel obstruction.So there's that as well. But then, but then there's [00:09:00] also the fact that in rat studies, in rodent studies, then these GLP 1 agonist drugs like semaglutide and others reliably cause thyroid tumors in the longterm. Oh, interesting.Malcolm Collins: Can you quickly go over, if you happen to know the mechanism of action of these drugs?Raw Egg Nationalist: sO they, they, what is it? I think it's either, it's, it's either, I think it's either ghrelin or leptin. They work on the receptors in the stomach that signal satiety, basically. I don't know the exact mechanism. So they, they signal to your brain that you're, that you're satiated, but they also slow the digestion of your stomach slow the movement of things from your stomach.So you, you are actually more full.Malcolm Collins: So Simone, you were saying that they could be used for alcohol. How would that work?Simone Collins: Yeah, I don't. So that's, that's what I, so what Ryan Nationalist said is, is what I understand as well, that, that affects satiety and slows digestion. I don't know how or why this would affect.Malcolm Collins: [00:10:00] I think people are getting confused with opioid. No, no,Simone Collins: no. I really, no, no, no, because again, people taking these drugs are reporting these other effects. What I think is happening here is, you know how they say never go shopping hungry. I think that when people feel hungry, they also are engaging in more impulsive behavior.aNd, and that, that I think is what may be at play when you feel really full. Are you like super keen, like imagine you just ate like a giant holiday meal, like, do youMalcolm Collins: want to go like, like the roulette table? Oh, that's fascinating, you know another fascinating effect of this is that sexuality changes when people are hungry, if you remember this from our book, I don't.Even as these drugs become more common we could see changes in human sexuality some really obvious ones are men, prefer smaller breasts when they're less hungry and they prefer larger breasts when they're more hungry. This is also true of poor versus wealthy men. Basically, if your resource scarce, you're going to optimize for women who look like they have more access to resources.So ladiesSimone Collins: schedule your breast reduction. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Or if you, you, you [00:11:00] have access to copious resources as a man, you're typically going to optimize for women who look like they have a longer reproductive. Cycle, i. e. our younger. So that's really interesting as well. I wonder if in women there's similar like, like sexual changes when they're, when they're not hungry.Raw Egg Nationalist: Well, there, I mean, there have been, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure there probably, I'm sure there probably are. I know, I mean, I know that there are, that there are certainly studies that show that women's mate preferences change when they go on and come off hormonal contraception. That's a big one. That's a big one.And you know, it's been shown that that I think that women, women, when they're on, I can't remember whether it's when they're on contraception or when they're off that they prefer more masculine faces and obviously more masculine faces indicative of higher levels of testosterone. But yeah, so I would, I would.I mean, all of these hormones, I think what we have to remember is that these hormones have all sorts of effects. You know, we, we talked in the last episode about testosterone is the aggressive hormone that people just think it's about aggression when actually it regulates almost every kind of behavior you can think every type of behavior [00:12:00] you can think of in men and in women as well.And I think that even appetite hormones like ghrelin and leptin and things like that, then they must obviously be involved in very complicated circuits of, of reward and appetite and, and will within the brain. So yes, I mean, I, I think that Yeah, I think, I think you could definitely, you should, if they haven't done a study of women's sexual preferences when they're hungry and when they're satiated, then they should.I justMalcolm Collins: pulled one up, by the way. Okay, so here are the differences. So this one looked at men and women. So for men, it found that hungry males, in line with what I was saying, preferred females with more physically mature features. Specifically females who were heavier, taller, and older. Female participants who are hungry showed elevated preferences for partners with a more mature personality profile.Simone Collins: So like beards?Malcolm Collins: No, personality profile. I. E. less probably impulsive, more muted, [00:13:00] like an old man. BecauseSimone Collins: when a woman is full, then she's probably into like... Younger, more riskyMalcolm Collins: seeming men? Is that what you're calling them? Yeah, yeah, that's my guess. It's probably this like, Alpha, they're like, when I think what is a young personality profile for a male, it's the typical alpha profile.Simone Collins: Whereas Someone who will go out and like, kill something for them to eat.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, well, and who's constantly signaling their virtue, like, well, not their virtue, but their what's the word I'm looking for? Prowess. Yeah. Prowess dominance, et cetera. Yeah. Whereas older men are typically not signaling those things as much.I'm pretty sure that's specifically what they're looking at. Which is interesting because it could mean that a lot of these alpha mindsets are going to be less attractive to women in the near future if they're all on Ozempic.Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, I would be more interested. I mean, like, so I think a woman is more likely to want to date someone on Ozempic than a man.And I say this because like men on Ozempic. You know, I mean, pretty much anyone on either has really good health insurance. They can pay for it or they're wealthy, right? Cause this is not [00:14:00] cheap.Malcolm Collins: Well, men are no Zimbic are going to like fat women. That's what the studies show. You know, you're more into older, fatter women.I think women are going to be really pushing this.Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. So then that's, that's fortunate, but I yeah, I mean, I, I'm just trying to think of the correlatory factors with who's taking a Zimbic. I think men are going to prefer women who are not taking a Zimbic. So why do you say that? Because they're, they're.They've better inhibitory control and they're probably...Malcolm Collins: Most men don't care, they just care what women look like. That's true, fair. Oh well. Okay, let's, let's talk about this split in humanity, right? High will, low will category. But they may look fairly similar, it's just the amount of drugs that they're using.Like, what are your thoughts on that?Raw Egg Nationalist: I, I think, I think we may very well see physical differences start to emerge. Now, I don't know. I'm not a, any kind of genetic specialist, so I can't tell you how many, how many generations it takes, for instance. It happens really quick, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, I mean, I've read, uh, one of my favorite books is Western [00:15:00] Price, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.This is an amazing, amazing, it's what I think it's the best book on nutrition ever written, written in the written in the 1930s. He was a dentist and he, he went and he visited, uh, well, he was a dentist and he, he observed in his patients in Cleveland that they were developing all sorts of facial deformities and behavioral difficulties, especially the children.And he thought it was something to do with the diet because. They were starting to eat more and more industrially produced foods rather than the kind of foods that their parents and grandparents had eaten, locally produced whole foods, animal foods, etc. He went on a globetrotting adventure looking for tribal societies that still ate their traditional diets as a kind of comparison case for You know, for people eating industrial diets in the West and I mean, he discovered, for instance in the Scottish Highlands, the, the, the Highlanders of Scotland were once the tallest people in Europe.They were regularly six foot seven, [00:16:00] six foot eight, seven feet tall, sometimes, you know, hugely tall people. And then within a generation after they stopped. eating their traditional diets after they stopped eating fish livers baked with oats and, and, you know, lots of milk and butter and all that kind of stuff.Started eating industrial food stuff, bleached flour, canned foods, all that kind of stuff. They shrank six inches, something like that, in a generation. Yeah, there was massive, massive shrinkage, apparently. I mean, I still think Highlanders are tall, but, but... So, so yes, I mean, I probably think it could happen quite quickly, and I do, I do think that there will be, on a long enough timeline, then we will see, we will see something like, like what H.G. Wells describes in The Time Machine, I think. Unless, of course, there are interventions with technology, maybe, that, that sort of counter the, the just, the dysgenic influence of bad lifestyle, massive medication, inactivity, all that kind [00:17:00] of stuff. But I do think that what we're going to get is a self selecting, very small, a much smaller minority, self selecting, an in group that sort of mates within the in group. And it will, it will be a physical elite, but I think it will be a cognitive elite too. I mean, bad life, bad lifestyles, you have to understand obesity, lack of exercise, you know, they have epigenetic effects on every aspect of your body, including your brain. And I mean, I think that there was a study, I did see a study, I think that correlated obesity with IQ, some, something.Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, they do seem to correlate in general, like, Also, that's a really high correlate withMalcolm Collins: hyperthroid, unfortunately. Yeah, so, so other than IQ, obesity, I think it's the second highest corollary with fertility rate. The genetic so specifically here, what I'm saying is the polygenic score. So like the genetic code that is associated with Obesity is also heavily associated and can be used as a predictor for how many kids [00:18:00] someone is going to have.So we will see, and it's being selected for almost as much as the one for low IQ is being selected for. So we're very likely to see a, a rapid rise in obesity, given that it's about as genetic as IQ, and it's being selected for about as much as IQ. We should probably see the same one standard, but, but it.opposite. One standard deviation shift upwards in obesity within the next 75 years in terms of the genetic correlates for it, which is at least within the mainstream population that isn't performing any sort of strong sexual selection practices, which is why it's important to begin to think about, like, what do the sexual selection practices of your family look like?What are you telling your kids if they're going out there? And this is one of the really toxic things that I think comes from You know, sort of the, the red pill mindset if they're going out there and optimizing on banging hot chicks, that is not optimizing for genetic fitness in a world of things like Ozympic and stuff like that.You need to [00:19:00] be banging and or not even banging. You need to be marrying sane chicks. You can go out there and bang hot chicks, but you need to marry it. And there are not many of them. They are a far greater prize than a hot chick in today's environment. And it is very easy to accidentally, you know, marry someone who, who has these negative causes or negative genetic correlates.When you didn't intend to, I'm not saying like. Freeze them out. It depends on your culture's. Optimization. The culture that Simone and I would create for our kids. I would want them to marry people who are you know, psychologically healthy and that, that have a, yeah, but it's up to the individual.I just think that this can be hidden from individuals So it's it's very easy to to have a genetically permeable culture when you didn't intend toRaw Egg Nationalist: yeah Yeah, I think that's I mean there's yeah, I I I don't I don't really know. I don't really know what to add to that. Actually, that's what I'll say.I think that's I think that's I think [00:20:00] that's that's that's a tremendous way to put it. And I think that there, I think you're right about the limits of the, of the red pill mindset. I mean, I, I'm sure I probably get lumped in with, with these red pill kind of, types, but I don't, I, I have a, a much more nuanced understanding, I think.And I try to put forward a much more nuanced interpretation of Relations between men and women than a lot of these kind of red pill gurus do it's definitely, it's definitely more complicated than just, you know, the, the solution is to, as you say, is to go out and have sex with as many attractive women as possible because of course, because of course you know, there are, there are ways to make oneself attractive in the short term that actually have absolutely no correspondence whatsoever with longterm fitness, you know, and, and I mean, they always say, you know, it's like, You might want to sleep with a woman, but you're not necessarily going to be the woman you marry, is it?And I mean, that is, I think that is very true. And I think that I think that we're in a difficult position because of course you need to be discerning But it's actually [00:21:00] becoming much harder to be discerning as well. I mean, I think you always should be discerning but actually um The the prize the size of the prize if you will is shrinking and it is harder and harder Even with even with dating apps and things like that because actually in many respects dating apps are a false economy dating account dating apps you know they actually probably the kind of women and the kind of men that are on dating apps are probably of a very particular kind and actually if that is your sole pool for for reproduction and the possibility of reproduction then actually you may very well be filtering out precisely the kind of people that you should be meeting that you would want that ideally you would want to meet but actually You're just never going to meet them because it's all the crazy BPD, BPD crazy women on there.Simone Collins: We see that a lot in, in the far future. What would you hope for? Like, I feel like right now we're at this, this point in society where things could go one of many ways. [00:22:00] And the things that we do now, our actions. Can point us in one direction or another. I think this is a great time to live because of that.Is there a direction in which you'd like to nudge society? And if so, what would it produce over the long run?Raw Egg Nationalist: I suppose I, I would love to live. I would love to live in a society that valued health, that valued true health and Because of course we don't. And you know, I write about, I write about all sorts of things.I write about the way that the FDA licenses chemicals, for instance. The fact that we operate on a presumption of safe until proven otherwise. And I've said, well actually look, it's very obvious actually that, that many chemicals are, Extremely harmful in the long term you can do these short term studies But actually you don't get any idea of of the real effects of the chemicals Until it's too late until it's 70 years down the line and and we're decades away from a from a profound reproductive crisis so I mean I would like to nudge society in a direction where actually we [00:23:00] we we see the ultimate value not as as as commercial value not as money, but as actually the Flourishing human life.That's what I would which would be much much closer to you know, kind of ancient greek conception of of the good life of Kind of yeah the kind of of the kind of social life that should be fostered, you know It's not just about it's not just about money. It's not about the commercial applications of of new products of new chemicals.It's actually about How do we live how should we live yeahMalcolm Collins: and i'd also point out here and i think this is probably i don't know if you but i would definitely consider myself part of the red pill community so when i'm saying the red pill community has these problems i'm talking internally about the community not as an outsider who's like a ha silly red pillars i'm more like hey.Let's make sure that we and I, and the community is maturing dramatically. Like if you look at where it is versus where it was 10 years ago. I, I think that it is the community that to a [00:24:00] large extent has transformed into this. Well, raw egg nationalism, right?Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think that, yeah, I think, I think you're right about that.I think you're right about that. I mean, I would, yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm red pilled in certain respects and I certainly recognize that you know, that a lot of, a lot of the stuff that even the sort of archetypal masculinity guru, you know, of the past. said is true and people like heart east for instance, who's a kind of you know, do you remember heart east?He was yeah. Yeah. Yeah people like that You know, they a lot of the stuff that they said particularly about hypergamy That kind of stuff. I mean, it's totally it's totally true It's totally true and I think that people people need to understand it there's a kind of what I would say is that actually maybe as the red pill community has become more popular, then of course it's been democratized and it's been watered down and you get these people who just, you know, reheat these very, very old takes endlessly for, you know, for likes on social [00:25:00] media.But actually, I think that the fundamental, the fundamental, the fundamental motivation behind the red pill community, I think is He's right and I think I think some of the fund the fundamental insights are right as well, tooMalcolm Collins: So it's really interesting the way that you're wording this because this is giving me a bit of a revelation is when I hear like Red pill takes that remind me of red pill takes from when the community was still just called red pill, right?Like i'm like, oh, that's a really reused take like that's really old and I think the reason is is because the community really mined all of the ideas and all of the the revelations that could have come from this world perspective Within its first like three and a half years of existing and now all of the evolutions of the movement are related on diverging ideals because all of the obvious takes were already mined and so you still have some people like going over those obvious takes but of course the community would evolve and sort of undergo adaptive radiation.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah. Yeah, precisely. Precisely. I mean, [00:26:00] I think what you're seeing is, yes, is people actualizing the kind of red pill insights in different ways. And, you know, so you, you might have someone like Rollo Tomasi who's saying, you know, get, get a vasectomy. And You know, I mean, I think you can agree with some of the stuff that Rollo Tomasi has said, at the same time as thinking, well, that's, that's deeply stupid.I mean,Malcolm Collins: I think a lot of men are right in thinking that they'll never get a fair deal in our society right now. And that, you know, we can, I mean, as I've mentioned, a lot of this stuff is genetic. You can be like a smart person and just understand that you have enormously low willpower and you're never going to achieve what you want to achieve because you just don't have the willpower for it.And, and we can say net up and try to push yourself through it. But I think when I look at the, like the genetic research, I don't know if that's a fair thing for me to be telling people.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, and I mean, I think, I think as well, then you see a lot of, you see a lot of stupidity on the, on the opposite, or maybe not the op, the opposing side, but the, for instance, like the kind of [00:27:00] trad side where people are saying, you know, everything will be fine if you just get married and have kids.I mean, people, people, people should get married, I think, and people should have children, but that isn't, that's not the be all and end all. That isn't, that isn't gonna solve, that isn't gonna solve the fundamental problems that are, that have been raised, for instance, by the red bill community. So, we, weMalcolm Collins: have an episode about this that I...Because it's, it's one of my favorite episodes, which is how girl defined ruined an entire generation of women. And of course, this was a play on the you know, how Scott Pilgrim ruined an entire generation of women. But the idea being is that. There was this conservative mindset for a while.The conservative influence with online adapted and, and Girl Defying did this where they basically told people, if you just live by these conservative rules and you get married and you save yourself for marriage and you have kids, everything will be all right. And the point we were making in that video is no, like, like specifically, it wasn't even just everything will be all right.It's you will get the things [00:28:00] that secular society has been promising you. At a higher level than you can achieve them through sexual, through secular society, like, you know, hedonistic sexual gratification like, relationship that works well without you having to put effort in, and that just wasn't true the, the, the rewards.for chastity and the rewards for willpower are not the same rewards that secular society is handling, handing out. I think they're better rewards. I think they're more meaningful rewards, but it's very easy to miss that it's a completely different optimization function and a different set of rewards you should be expecting.And that just because you follow these rules doesn't mean that there aren't hard things that you're going to have to go through every day.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, yeah, precisely, precisely. And also, I think as well there's a kind of it's almost presented as a kind of Benedict option as well. It's like, you know, you can, you can retreat from the world.If you just get married and have your nice trad family, you know, everything will be okay. And, [00:29:00] and as, as we know, you know, there's still it's a public education system, massive propaganda apparatus, we do have to change the world. We can't, we can't, we can't retreat from the world. We actually have to change the world.Yeah,Simone Collins: and if we retreat, eventually the world is going to come for us. Especially because, as Malcolm frequently points out, the sort of dominant culture doesn't have any other way to get more members than by stealing them because they're not reproducing above repopulation rate. Also thinking long term, one thing I wanted to ask you is what you think...In 50 years, a hundred years, 500 years is going to be seen as like completely barbaric about the way we live now. Assuming that, you know, what we live, what, what people are like in the future has been selected for. Like, I mean, you know, those who survive those who reproduce, what will they think of? today as being just insane?Raw Egg Nationalist: That's a, that's a, that's a very good question. I mean, I think we're, we're already seeing, so, you know, I was talking about the advertising for a Zempik. We're already seeing this notion that it is, that it is basically barbaric [00:30:00] to suggest that people intervene to make their own lives better. Yeah. You know, it's like, no, you know, you can't stop, you can't stop eating.You cannot close the fridge. You cannot, you cannot get up off the sofa and Well, that sounds like fatMalcolm Collins: phobia to me.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, I know. It sounds prettyMalcolm Collins: hateful. I think we might get this video demonetized for that kind of talk.Raw Egg Nationalist: But, but I think, but I think that what we're gonna see is we're gonna see a real a real growth of that mindset and I think that it will be Pushed by big pharma because it's being pushed by big pharma now It's novo nordisk who's paying for the advertising that says you can't get you can't lose weight other than by taking his mpick So I think that I mean, I think that if if there is this split that i've posited then there may very well be You know one segment of society that just truly believes that actually human beings are almost Like inert, inert objects upon which external forces act and [00:31:00] it is barbaric in any way to expect Independent volition from you know, your average fat or from from anybody, you know from your average fatty So I think that what you might see then is you might see a you maybe you'll see a kind of Ayn Randian split, you know where you've got like these these Ultra high achieving physical specimens who believe that actually any notion that that that anything is beyond your will Is that's barbaric the notion that you know You should coddle people in any way and then you've got the other side of society these people who perhaps believe that actually You can't expect any willpower whatsoever on any level from people that people are just objects YeahMalcolm Collins: Well, and it is interesting to me that a lot of these things that are correlated with these lower willpower groups are also correlated with high fertility which means that not only is fertility trauma, and it's likely, I had to guess what's causing this, it's likely that these are the kids, you know, as we say, there's really only two reasons to have a lot more than two kids.It's either because you have some [00:32:00] exogenous ideological motivation, like that's what's motivating you to do it, or you simply couldn't figure out birth control. You know, either you lacked the initiative to think ahead or whatever, and I think that that's why you're getting this correlation here.Raw Egg Nationalist: The welfare state as well, I think.Yeah, thatMalcolm Collins: as well. And so I think what this means is not only are kids dropping in the world, but even faster, and I think the hidden thing that's happening at a much higher rate is these high willpower and other correlations, cultural groups or kids born into them, they are going to be exceedingly rare going into the future, and that means they are the next Bitcoin.High willpower kids are the next Bitcoin, because as Simone was saying, you know, the mainstream society needs these people, and it needs them disproportionately. That's why we know it's coming for our kids. That's why you can't just go Benedict, because if you have kids, Then you have the one asset they really want and they will come in and they will find a way to take those kids from you.[00:33:00] And you can see this. If you look at the, you know, highest profile people in our society, like the Elans or whatever, right? Like they targeted his kids aggressively, right? Like that is, is something that any of us should expect. And we need to steal our children against and build communities for them and build systems that help them find spouses in a world where it's going to become increasingly difficult.And I do think it is a. Parents failure as much as the kids. If you if the kid cannot find a spouse because that that required your, you know, your networking and your culture building and your advice. If you put them in a situation without realizing how much the world was changing around you. And I just can't tell a kid.Oh, just, you know. F*****g go to a bar like that doesn't work anymore, you know,Raw Egg Nationalist: yeah No, I think I think that's I think that's very very true I think I think the emphasis on parental maybe that's another thing that will be that will be considered barbaric is leaving your children To defend you to figure everything out for [00:34:00] themselves I mean that is a that is a hallmark of the kind of boomer liberal sort of yeah mode of parenting, right?Is it's like, Oh, you know, everyone, you have to be free to make your own mistakes. But actually some mistakes are fatal and you can make fatal mistakes very early in your life.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's funny. You mentioned this is, is people often hear about our parenting strategy and they go, Oh my gosh, I can't believe you're going to tell your kids who to be, you know, you're gonna, you're, and they're like, that's so abusive.And it's like, This is what every culture throughout human history has done until you guys came along. And the only reason why you're against this is because this is one of the tactics you use to separate children from their support networks. You know, as we always say, all cults, they need to separate individuals from their parents and their support networks.And that's often what they focus on doing first. So the mainstream society, the cult, you know, it, it tells kids your parents giving you advice on who to be or, or putting pressure on you in terms of who to be and what to achieve in life, [00:35:00] that is intrinsically abusive, which is a great psychological tool if you are trying to pry children from high effectiveness cultures.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%. I mean, I do think, the Elon, to go back to the Elon stuff, I mean, the Elon stuff is quite shocking, really, the way that his children have been targeted by trans activists, and, you know, in, in public, and not only have they done it, but they've also said, we're transing, we transed your daughter, I think is what they said, or your son, and, yeah, it's, it's terrifying, but that is, in a microcosm that is, that is society at large.And, you know, I mean, parents, parents are shocked when they discover, you know, when they see a photo of a classroom and they see all of the, all of the banners and the slogans and the pride flags and the love is love and all this kind of stuff on the wall. But it's like, you should know, you should, you should be taking enough of an interest in your child's education to know that [00:36:00] that is, that that stuff is on the wall and that they're being taught by a a rainbow haired .But people don't until it's People don't until it's too late.Malcolm Collins: Well, so, we already have this with our kids. Like, we get told online, regularly, like, we are going to target your kids. Like, that is our goal. Is to turn your kids against you. In any way that we can no, I will say, I think that the, the parts of the trans movement right now that have just spiraled out of control, I think that they're actually, they won't be relevant by the time my kids are growing up they, they seem to have lost the, the will of the people Which unfortunately is dragging down, I think, a lot of what I would consider the real trans people.I mean, there is, there is obviously an effect of all these endocrine disruptors in our environment. Like, like, it would almost be surprising if we didn't see an explosion of actually people who are identifying as a different gender. So, I I feel for them being dragged through the mud by the crazy people.But those, those crazy people definitely exist right now. And I wonder what the [00:37:00] next movement, what the next iteration of crazy is going to be that targets our kids for conversion. My guess right now, if I'm looking at things, is it's going to be the... Negative utilitarian effortless.I think that's going to be the next big movement, the voluntary extinction movement.Raw Egg Nationalist: Yeah. And I, well, I, yeah, and I think it's going to come hand in hand with the climate change movement, of course. Oh yeah, absolutely.Malcolm Collins: Well, I think it's going to be what the climate change movement transforms into. So a portion of them will be motivated by climate change, but I think, and I see this already because I think the climate change movement.doesn't have the popular will it used to, you know, you look at there's a great study, I think, done on like Gen Z, it was looking at like Greta Thunberg's generation, right? And they are actually much less environmentally friendly than previous generations. They just actually aren't motivated by the climate change movement anymore.They use people like Greta to speak to old people, but she was not actually effective at communicating with her generation.Raw Egg Nationalist: It's very, it's very noticeable when you look at these just stop oil protests, like you see, you [00:38:00] know, footage of The Just Stop Oil protestors in London and they're sat on, they're sat on the motorway or something.It's all old people now. It's all like retired school teachers and civil servants and doctors. There are very few young people.Malcolm Collins: Young people don't give a s**t about the environment. But, but I think that they're moving because what does sell to young people is doomerism. And that's what the negative utilitarians, that's what the anti natalists offer young people is doomerism.They say, humanity is a scourge and we need to end it. And, and, and I think that those are going to be the groups that aggressively target our kids the most. Is the ones who want them to hate their lives. And I think that they are going to be surprised by how resistant our kids are to these messages. Because we have, Had the fortune of seeing what happened to people like Elon and to build very specific social tools and mechanisms for our kids so that they will be more protected by people who want to indoctrinate them to [00:39:00] punish their parents.Raw Egg Nationalist: Well, listen, you, you have my full support. You are, you are, no, you are, you are, I mean this genuinely, you are good parents because it is a, it is a.It is a, it, I mean, the world is terrible full stop, you know, there's been, the world has been terrible since its inception, but there are unique problems, problems that are unique to our situation today and parents need to know about them and they need to do something about them, they need to protect their children because once they're gone, they're goneMalcolm Collins: as well.I mean, No, historically, once they were gone, you know, you'd lose them to, like, I don't know, dyed hair for a few years or something like that, and then they come back to you because they're like, oh, mom and dad, you were right. Now, once they're gone, they're gone. They have developed more advanced procedures to ensure that.And I, I do appreciate, you know, you, you saying there's the term that we used to use for people like us, face Fs. But but, but I, I appreciate your discretion in the public eye and it's, it's [00:40:00] likely the best thing for your family, which, which is very understandable.Simone Collins: I would say guys, there's actually a lot of hope.I mean, To be quite honest, Malcolm, the, like, Eliphists and the environmental antinatalists, like, they aren't going to last longer than a couple generations. And anyone who chooses to adopt that belief with every new generation is also not going to have kids. So I feel like over time, that kind of culture just isn't going to be able to spread because over time, you know, basically anyone who might have that kind of tendency, they're being selected against and, and sterilized.So I feel like the. The future that we can expect, especially in a post, like a post modern world with lots of technology is going to be very pronatalist because everyone else is just not,Malcolm Collins: not going to reproduce. Well, I agree. We gotta, but what I'm saying is who's going to be targeting our kids? Yeah.Simone Collins: Yeah.Well, I mean, yeah, yeah. That's a question.Malcolm Collins: Anyway I I am so [00:41:00] excited that we had you on again. This, this podcast was incredible. I really liked it. And I hope our audience does as well and they should really check out your sub stack, your Twitter, which is again, baby gravyRaw Egg Nationalist: nine. Yes.Simone Collins: And Men's World Magazine, plus all of RAG Nationalist's existing books on Amazon.There are four, but there is a fifth one on the way. And if you go to his sub stack, you may get some sneak peeks of it. So do notRaw Egg Nationalist: miss it. Thank you. Thank you. Listen, it's been, it's been a real pleasure. You're you're, you're really interesting people to talk to. And this is, this has been a really fascinating conversation.Thanks soSimone Collins: much for joining. Definitely come back. We want to have more conversations like these and yeah, thanks again for your time.Raw Egg Nationalist: I absolutely will. Thank you. Woohoo! Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

I have another fun chat with sex researcher and OnlyFans creator Ayla about the latest in her sex studies, including female sexual subtypes and common mistakes men make in bed. We also discuss the future of AI-generated personalized porn, using algorithms to create custom "wife porn", arbitrage opportunities in sexual dynamics, and more![00:00:00] Hello, Ayla. It is wonderful to have you here today. Sadly, Simone is not with us today because she is out petition collecting to run for office and she may just not be appearing in episodes for a while now, which is a little frustrating for me.But oh, by the way, one of the really fun episodes I'm going to do while she's not with us because I've been meaning to do this forever. As an episode, but I haven't gotten to it is I want to do a review. If you ever want to join me on this, this could be fun to do of all of the AI porn websites.Have you looked into any of these? Not recently. I did like a, like a year or two ago, but that's like a decade in AI timelines. Oh yeah. So, okay. Sorry. Before we get further on the intro, I just got to tell you about these cause they're really interesting. So they typically right now seem to fall into like one of three categories.One is a category of AI sites that like nudes, photos of women, like, So anyone who you're friends with, you can submit your photos to them. I was going to try it with photos of my wife. Like one morning I actually got interesting and I started submitting photos, my wife to see what [00:01:00] she would look like.So I'm going to keep it wholesome if I do. Another one, what they do is you choose specific profiles of women. But they're like a, a, like. A, a cat girl meets you at a stream and like this fantasy world or like you have an elf girl as like a slave or whatever, you know, right, like, and you can chat with these individuals and then you can ask for photos of these individuals in specific context.Which is really interesting. And then the final category is creating women. So you give a set of parameters that you would like a woman to be, and then the AI system would create a woman that fits that set of parameters, and you can now ask for photos of this woman and chat with her. Like, I want to get your thoughts on this, because I think you'd have interestingWould you like to know more?You can chat with her now.Like do they, when is integrated with the chatting? Yeah. So it's integrated with the chatting. So they'll integrate the personality and, and, and background and [00:02:00] jobs you give her with the chat feature. Damn. And then you also get porn of her. Does she like sexy talk? Yeah, but you have to pay for the individual picks.So you pay for credits. That makes sense. And then the credits get porn of her. What I was gonna do, if I did an episode on this and I was gonna create like artificial Simone's. And try to like, ask them for porn of them. And I, I actually got bored and tried this one morning. Cause I was like, I want to see pictures of my wife, but like, unfortunately the pictures that they gave me did not look enough like her and I got sad and left.Yeah. I don't think we're quite there yet, but I think we'll be there soon. Once we're there, it's going to be incredible. You can just like have custom wife porn all the time. Right. And when she's not up in the morning yet, I can go online because that's what I'm, what I was doing this. I was like, Oh, I want to talk with my wife, but she's not up yet.Can I create like a AI simulacrum for her to talk to? No. Well, what are different ways you think AI will be used in the, in the sex industry? [00:03:00] Other than, I don't know. I mean, I recently, I've been seeing photos of me around the internet with different faces. On me, which is upsetting and they're probably just using like face up for this right now, but it's probably going to become an AI thing pretty shortly where it's just like use alums body as a template.And I'm a little offended by it. But this is more short term I guess. Hold on, I want to ask you about offense questions. So there was something that Simone said she'd find offensive, but I was like, it's kind of flattering in a way. So there was a guy in Japan or Korea or something who his wife ended up divorcing him because he would hire prostitutes that looked like her when she was younger.And I was like, that's kind of flattering. What are your thoughts on that? Would you find that offensive? I mean, I'd probably find it painful. Like it's painful to not I guess it highlights that you're older now, right? Yeah. It's painful to like be losing out on sexual access because your physicality is not sufficiently attractive.That's like a quite painful thing. Hmm. Well, okay. So then you, you having other women with [00:04:00] their face on your body, what specifically is triggering a negative emotional reaction around this? I don't know. It's, I don't, normally. Normally, like the thing that you're worried about is like somebody taking your face and putting it on a nude so people can imagine you naked, but it's like your identity, but this is somehow the reverse.It's like, it's my body, but like I'm erased out of it in some way. And that feels like shockingly dehumanizing in a way I didn't expect. I just kind of didn't expect people to do this at all. Like what the hell is the motivation? Or I don't know. Cause like The motivation is that they want these other people naked, right?They want sexual access to someone who's not you. Sure. Yeah, well, I'm not even sure it was a real face. It wasn't even like a person. It was just like a generic face that wasn't mine. And so they could like, do it and like sort of steal it without it getting credit to me or something. Oh, and then they would upload them.Oh, that's Oh, that's like people reporting like, Hey, is this you? Like, this is your body. It's just like a generic. It wasn't a person. It was just [00:05:00] And I'm like, that is, that was me. Goddammit. You're like erasing my identity from a thing. It's almost like there's something that plagiarizes your work somehow.Yeah. Well, no, it is. Well, so, so I didn't actually finish the intro here because I got so sidetracked by interesting talk about pornography. So, Ayla is, you know, I was actually thinking today and I was trying to think, is there another, because I've written a book on sexuality, a best selling book on sexuality, The Pregnancy Guide to Sexuality.Check it out. It sells for like 99 cents. It's really good. I have a couple copies. Yeah, so, Ayla, as somebody who like is deeply interested in this field, I was thinking you are probably the best sexual researcher in human history. And then I was thinking, does Kinsey beat you? And I was like, not really.Kinsey is more like the Freud of human sexual research. He is important because he had the idea to do it, but his research was Terrible. So you're probably the single best researcher on a huge chunk of humanity, and you have such low [00:06:00] self esteem. I always seen your, your, your things. You're like, Oh, I can't really be that great.Or like, I remember one recently was like, are people really that bad at marketing themselves? And I'm like, Haley, you don't understand. top fraction of a fraction of a percent of intelligence and agency in the human population. People really are that bad. Which is fun to talk to you about sexuality, because most people don't talk about this subject.And what I had planned in this episode talking about was people need to check out this new substack she's done. It is data driven advice on how to be good in bed. And it is data driven not just from one of maybe the most sexually experienced people in human history but also one of the most Deep sexual researchers in human history, like you are not going to get this is not like woo s**t Like this is not like you're going to like I'm gonna you got a because sexual advice stuff Like if you go to like sexuality coaches, it's all woo like like from the stuff I've seen It's all like half of it is healing crystals and half [00:07:00] of it is sex stuff.She is like hard data Which is really cool but so I'd love to get to this data, but I'm actually having fun on this topic of the future of like online sex stuff. So do you have other thoughts on where things are going with this stuff? I'm even thinking like if I was going to blue sky, I can give you one of my thoughts on how I might use AI.I might take Like audio, so like somebody could take, like, suppose somebody wanted to engage with someone like my wife sexually, right? Like was in an online environment they could download like the hours and hours because we do an episode every day of our podcast of podcast episodes create a synthesized personality by separating out the woman's voice, put that into an AI system and have that respond to them.Now I'm thinking of this selfishly because I was actually like, okay, well, if I wanted to engage with a Good emulation of my wife, that's what I should do because then I could talk to her without distracting her from the important work she's [00:08:00] doing. But you could also then do this with like pictures of women or video feeds of women to create a fully, like really authentically synthesized woman.What, what are your thoughts? Well, and then what this is interesting and from an evolutionary perspective is it gives all men access to the highest quality woman possible from a masturbatory standpoint. Yeah, this is, I mean, like, it's more than masturbation, it's direct, like, this is part of why OnlyFans is so successful is because it gives you direct personal access to the woman as opposed to porn.Because people are always like, why am I paying for porn when I could just get porn free? And like, turns out there's a huge market for personalized s**t. So yeah, I think there's like probably, like, it's like a more personalized masturbation, which sounds great. From my end, I'm interested in it because, like, as an OnlyFans girl.I would love to outsource my content. I would love to just like press the button and have like the A list simulation, you know, like talk and live stream and do videos [00:09:00] for my guys. That sounds wonderful. Because like, I, it's nice. I enjoy, I do genuinely enjoy like being slutty and promiscuous on the internet.But like, honestly, I've taken so many naked photos of myself. I kind of want to shoot myself. Every time I take a nude. Now, it's just too much and it would be nice. I just want it to happen. People should know you created a contest around this like a year ago, like early, early AI, you are cutting edge. So you handled this huge data bank of images and you created a contest for somebody to create a really good ala generator.Can you talk about this? Yeah. We, we'd want to see if we could like. Use AI basically, can we make this happen? If it turns out, no, none of the people competing were really quite good enough. Because I think in order to work, it has to be relatively photorealistic. Because people just, it's not that exciting to view something that you can tell is AI.I think you literally did it the first moment somebody had the idea of doing something like this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, [00:10:00] like I've been in the AI world, the AI safety world for long, well before ChachiBT or AI started picking up in the last few years. So this has been like in the stream, like pretty advanced on it, but it's just not ready.No one would know this about you as an outsider. Just, you know, like Ayla is really, really high status within the AI safety world in the EA sphere, like among the type of people who are nerds about like Scott Alexander stuff, you're going to get maybe a third of them who are nerds about AILA stuff.And, and you go to a lot of the conferences and stuff like that because I think like your number one main squeeze is also in that space. Yeah. Yeah. One of my partners is president of Mary. So that helps. Yeah. We were both in the same. Circles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is interesting that you're in all these, these intellectual circles and some people who follow you as an outsider might not know that, that you're pretty high status within these intellectual circles.Um, well, so I was thinking if you could [00:11:00] automate yourself what could you offer that no one else is offering right now? I guess through a really high volume of images. Like, I'm wondering if there's arbitrage opportunities for you as a businesswoman here. So you have an unusually high number of images of yourself nude compared to other women.You could process these images, create a better ALA generator than other people. But you need to, it seems like a lot of the stuff is the AI stuff is good personality attachments. How would you handle that? Do you have a big feed of like a video feed or, or video backlogs or something like that you could use to try to create that, or would you try to simulate it?Like, like for personality wise, just feeler. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have tons of footage of interviews on podcasts and there's a bunch of like porn stuff. I, I would love to have more of me. to talk to people because I think [00:12:00] I'm like, relatively, I have some, some stuff to offer and I just don't have the time or inclination.I'm like a pretty solo person. I don't like hanging out with other people that much. I'm very private in the sense of the way I spend my time. And so it would be nice to like have somebody. Like an Ayla clone go out and do all that for me. I would love that. I love that idea too. That is, that is fun.Well, I mean, so then I know you've been thinking about maybe doing a podcast or something like that. Has that moved forwards? Are you more focused right now on the the, the sex guide blog? Well, I'm probably gonna do a good at sex podcast. So the plan is we bring a bunch of women together and talk about what makes sex good.And we have some variations on this. I don't want to give away too many details, but I'm pretty excited. I have an idea. Do you want me, I mean, are you connected with like, like documentary type teams and stuff like that? Like, have you thought about pitching this to like Netflix and stuff? Do you, I mean, do you have connections there?Cause I have a few. Well, the thing is, I'm not sure that Netflix would result in the level of revenue that I'm interested in. [00:13:00] Ah, oh yeah. Because you want to gate content access. Good idea. Okay. Yeah. Like right now it's, this is turning into my full time job, basically. It's like paying me more than OnlyFans does.So, well, education, your brain is now paying you more than I know. It was fulfilling. I love it. I mean, again, I don't, not degrading, like I'm like happy doing sex work and stuff, but like it's, I'm a little burned out and I would love to just do something that engages my brain and getting paid for it. So exciting.It's also less freaky because there's always this background insecurity that, like, my looks are going to run out and then I can't continue earning money through sex work. And, but this is like, oh, I could keep doing this for quite some time, even after I start looking really ugly. So it's like, It's not insecurity.Realistically, that's going to happen. I mean, we, we in our society aren't supposed to tell women that, but, like, objectively The, the, that's going to happen. And I think that being very shrewd in how you are backstopping your career. [00:14:00] Which is also really interesting. I think that some people don't think about was, was people like you, as they think that the, you know, like you don't recognize this and you aren't like doing career planning stuff and you absolutely are.I know it's like a weird sort of like outside, it's not a quite typical mind fallacy that people do, but I get this a lot when, when I talk about like running an orgy, people are like, Oh, she's going to f**k so many people watch out for the STD spread. And I'm like, do you, if you, do you not think about the liches, like if you think about if you were going to run an orgy.What would you do? You would probably require SCI. It's like a very basic thing that people like aren't they just sort of jump to the conclusion of what the final salacious result will be and not be like, wait, if you logically try to plan something like this, you would probably install fail safes or, or like good safety measures.And so it's very similar with like sex work. People are like, ah, she's going to get old and then be upset when nobody loves her. I'm like, did you not? Did you not think that maybe I have thought about this? You're right. Oh my God. I [00:15:00] am going to age.It's ridiculous. I don't understand. It reminds me of the end of Clueless when the lady who owns a cigarette company and smokes cigarettes every day and the girl goes, you know those things cause cancer? And she's like, Oh my God, no one ever told me. Like, yeah, it's the same. It's the same with us. I think a lot of people just don't put a lot of thought into the people that they're attacking was in online environments.Like, we'll get these attacks, like Oh, they want to replace the world with people who look like them and like, like their genetic stock. And like, I'm like, that's not something we've ever said. And they're like, but their genetic stock is flawed because they have glasses. And it's like, we don't want to replace people with people are like, Oh, they must be racist.And I'm like, we are like virulently not racist. And they're like, Oh, I don't know about that. You want people to have more kids, but you're not racist. I don't see how those two things could correlate. And it's like, What ? Yeah, it's, it's, I, I [00:16:00] love it. I love it. It's a shame. It's like something I had to update to that people are going to attack versions of you and not you.Like when I was going into being public, I was like, oh, okay, I'm ready for people to criticize who I am, but it turns out they don't. They just make up like a straw person about you and then criticize that, and you're like, wait, wait though. That's, it's a lot harder to handle, I think. Yeah, well, no, it is, and can you hear me okay, by the way?I got like a little thing over here. Yeah, somebody's mowing outside. Can you still hear me okay? No, I don't hear it at all. I made a mistake and I got a little alert on my, okay. Anyway, no, so it's really interesting. I don't know how much press you get. Like we get a decent amount of press. Yeah. Interesting things is I begin to get a feel of the different types of attack articles.Where one type of attack article and they are not correlated with the prestige of the newspaper. One type of attack article we get pretty frequently is it's clear that somebody read the title of another attack article. But didn't pay for the article. [00:17:00] The guardian does this really frequently where they will write an attack article, and it's clearly based on the title of another article, but not having paid for the article.That's.Is it like super glaring? Like they like cite facts that are from like before the paywall or something? Yeah, yeah. So they'll cite facts from before the paywall and then they'll say other things that are like something that someone would intuit. Like they'll say stuff like we do like explicitly racist things, which like, it's very obvious even if you had read the article that we spoke against that, but like they hadn't read the article.They're just like, oh, they're pronatalists. They must be racist or, or where this was really obvious to us is one of the articles on us insinuated that we were billionaires. And then a bunch, they said billionaires like Elon Musk, but it had a picture of us want people to have more kids. And so then when other people wrote articles on that, they would say we are billionaires.And so there's a huge [00:18:00] genre of article, Malcolm and Simone are billionaires out there right now. I mean, it's not like an awful reputation to have, but do you have any like positive, like attack articles on you out there? Like, like, no, usually the articles Aren't explicitly attack because I think you are more like susceptible to the woke, like, or like more of an easy target for the current cultural war because like you're associated with like, are you right wing?Are you being tried? Are you weird sex people? Nobody f*****g knows. And me, I'm just like a sex worker. I think this confuses people because like a lot of the mainstream media right now is sort of like at least lip service pro sex work. Yeah. So I think this is confused a lot of the ways that people talk about me.Normally, I'm in, I'm in media that I didn't volunteer to participate in because people are reporting on something outrageous that I've tweeted. And then that, that will get through the same repeat. Like there'll be like one big article that somebody writes like, Hey, look at this insane thing. She didn't shower very much.And then there'll be like a [00:19:00] whole string of other articles of people like copying over that information. I'm like. No, but I, I, well, I mean, of the attention economy, you grab a lot of it. I love that. Very, very good at that. It's not really that intentional to be clear. I was like, if Norman, like, I didn't know this was the thing guys, but okay.But by the way, I don't know if this has happened to you. One of the types of articles that now we watch out for a lot is somebody spotted us meeting publicly with a friend. And now like that entire friend group doesn't talk to us. And like now we cannot meet publicly with people anymore. Like I can't go publicly to restaurants with friends.I can't like, it's really weird. Like I didn't expect this to happen as quickly. Have you had that happen to you? Like somebody was like, Hey, no, I don't think I have the hate attention of mainstream publications in the same way you do for some reason. I'm more of like, This is, this is, this is Julia Black, a stalker.Who you know well, who I don't have. like that. There is a [00:20:00] little weird though, because like, I have no, I've hung out with somebody like at conferences, like publicly, I'm talking to people who Like maybe their reputations could be damaged by seeing associated with me, but you know, nothing happens. So I think maybe I just like, don't have a, like you are, you have a thing.I think you're like easily compressed into sort of a trope, which is like the pro natalist racist or something. Yeah. And I don't think I'm like quite as, like, the weird sex worker is like less of a powerful trope. So I think I'm less vulnerable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think that outsiders look at this.They're like, oh, well, I think the trope that you get grouped into, which you don't fall into at all, is, and it's interesting, is actually almost as strong as us. So it's us. We're pronatalists, but we're really anti racism. And we try to signal that really loudly, but people don't always notice. You are a sex worker, but you are also, I consider a very high tier intellectual.And you try to signal that, but a lot of people probably like group you in was like, sex worker must be bimbo. I get those comments so much. It's like, why isn't anybody taking this w***e seriously? I get that [00:21:00] constantly. Or like, she's a sex worker opinion discarded. It's like a, almost like you could copy paste that comment.Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, how could you? You are. And for people who don't know we hang out with like a lot of the quote unquote, like dissident intellectual class. She is pretty much universally respected within that community. As an intellectual. Other people might not be out there saying that.So one thing I wanted to talk about before we end this, cause, cause this was actually what prompted me to reach out to you about this was a chart that you put together. Yeah. Yeah. Of how much women like it, how much men do it, of sexual fetishes. Yeah. Or let's, it's like a little bit more sex acts as opposed to fetishes, but there are some fetishes in there.Yeah. And to encourage people to get your thing, I am going to gray this out, so people won't know if their thing is on here or not. But you also put into this what was really interesting, is the standard deviation for like ratings, like is there less variance or more variances? Is this one of these things that people either hate [00:22:00] or love, or is it something that like most people agree on?There was one thing that really surprised me on here, a lot actually. And it was that almost no women like this. And it was, he doesn't care that much if you come or not. Which is interesting, because I've actually heard the opposite from women, or in a lot of sources that I knew, which is that women don't like when a guy is over focused on whether or not she came.Now, of course, also in the negative camp is like, thinking you came when you didn't come, asking you if you came if you didn't come. So it's basically like, he needs to make you come, but not be concerned about it. But it was really fascinating to me. I was wondering if you had thoughts on that. Like, is this something you expected when you were doing this, or?I was also pretty surprised by this result, but I guess it like makes sense if you think about it. Like I have another one in there that's like, he's disappointed if you don't come and like people are much more split on this. So it's like a weird thing where he has to care [00:23:00] and, but like he can't, you're right.He has to like thread the needle. My guess is that women don't want to feel pressured. Like, Oh s**t. Like I I don't want to feel like I need to come like, but they want him to care a little bit. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so I'm trying to think, what are some of the ones that are the most, she likes it but men almost never do it?One that's a real outlier here is he wants to roleplay non consent. Our, one of our other videos with you is on non consent parties. So this, if we speak of female male arbitrage, this is a huge area of arbitrage. Women like non consent more than men do it. Yeah, absolutely. This is, I mean, this is one of the most, the things that appears in my data, like regardless of the study I do or what I'm measuring, like women wanting to submit more than men want to dominate is just basically across the board.And again, like we were saying, like in, Recently that like sadism tends to be one of the subclasses in which this is pronounced, but it's a press all over. I think it should make [00:24:00] sense. Like men are like afraid of being dominant and like maybe men legitimately aren't dominant, which is a kind of weird topic in itself.But yeah, absolutely. Women way more into that weird topic. Maybe men aren't dominant. What have you seen in this area? Well, like what are your thoughts? Well, I mean, so this is one of the very, very early things that got me into sex research. I was actually listening to Jeffrey Miller give a talk in Thousand Mutual Friend, by the way, I really, I, we haven't had him on the podcast.I'm gonna make a note. . Oh yeah, you, he's great. But this is, I met him back in 2018 when he was, I was living in New York and he was there and he was like giving a little talk to. It's the rationalist, I think, and I remember being like, well, he's, I asked him, you know, why are more men dominant than women are submissive?And he like, he didn't really know, which makes sense because nobody f*****g knows. It turns out this has been like one of the biggest focuses in my research since then. And like, there's various theories, but, I don't have a good sense of why. Like one, it's like maybe it's this testosterone thing and testosterone levels are dropping.So everybody's getting more submissive. [00:25:00] Maybe. Maybe it's like the gay Listen, I can, I can give you an answer. I know the answer. Yeah? No. I know, I actually do know the answer. I can give you the answer. Okay, okay. Okay, look at the genetic Data from the agricultural transition period in human history. So this is like right when we were transitioning to an agricultural society in the early agricultural period 14 women would have children for every one man that would have children.So you didn't need this to appear at the same rate across men for some men, it was about just not dying and having one or two kids, whereas chieftains women would cook. Conglomerate toward them. So you don't need. Men and women to perfectly match men need to either be super dominant when they're in the chieftain or king role or be submissive and nightly to the, to the extent that they are able to follow a chieftain or king which is a different psychological subset.Yeah, I think that this is a theory. I think this is related to my, my gay uncle theory where some men sort [00:26:00] of self selected out because of like fewer men reproduce than women. Although I hadn't tied it specifically to the concept of like the chieftain thing. But I'm not totally convinced about this though.Tell me what you think is bad about this theory. I mean, 14 women were breeding for every man. That's 14 women to one man. That's what was happening on average. That means that many men had 30 wives. Right. But like. Like, could we not say something like, Oh, say the dominant man reproduces at like a much higher rate the dominant genes get spread or, but like, maybe there's some, some of the men, if his genes like.Or deliberately are not competing, like, why waste resources on them at all? Like, they have to have some sort of comparative advantage. And it seems weird to not, like, be spending all of the genes on the thing that has the max advantage. Like, like, things tend to be just really competitive in that way. And it's similar to, like, why, like, I think the gay uncle theo Like, literally, the gay uncle theory part is bad.Because, like, gay Like, why would you spend genes on having a gay man? Like, the selfish gene theory. Like, [00:27:00] those genes There's no such good of the group kind of thing. I don't know. I'm not really expressing myself super clearly here. I'm sorry, I'm going to take the gay uncle theory, split it out here. First of all, what you said was really smart.I like it and I'm probably wrong. You convinced me I'm probably wrong there. Okay. I don't know. I'm just saying you're not necessarily right. I'm saying, I don't know. It's not enough information. Gay uncle theory is the theory that gay men have either they invest in childcare for their siblings in a way that increases the number of kids they can have, or they have siblings of gay men who have kids particularly women, have female offspring that are more feminine.Then they otherwise would be the two iterations of the gay uncle theory. The problem is, is you would just need to have so many extra kids to offset the kids. The gay uncle is having, it doesn't make sense. Also it doesn't make sense because you see similar rates of gay populations in animal species where you have no parental care, mammal species specifically.These are my two arguments. Thank you. That's [00:28:00] thank you for your, I, this is, I didn't. actually know that. And it's, I like that you're strengthening my argument though. Yeah. Well, I mean, so people don't often consider if, if I would have two kids, like, okay, suppose I'm supposed to have four kids and my gay uncle's supposed to have four kids.But he decides to have no kids, and we still need to be, like, genetically successful as a family, then I need to double the number of kids I'm having. Like, that's really hard. If you look at my family historically, I have my family's birth records. If I go great grandfather and back, for, like, every person for, like, four generations, we had 12 kids each.A gay uncle was not gonna double the 12 kids. Yeah, that's, that's a good point. Yeah. So, I mean, like there might be like maybe roundaboutly something to the gay uncle theory, but I find it kind of implausible. And for that reason, I'm like less swayed by thoughts that like maybe men's like are self selecting out of the gene pool a little bit by being submissive.I'm like, why would that be beneficial at all? [00:29:00] My guess is it's more likely some sort of like weird anomaly or like a change in. In testosterone levels or something, but I don't know. Very interesting. Okay, I want to see if any other, other things here strike me as interesting. Oh, here's one. So, so the, he wants to roleplay Nugget, like that was a controversial one, right?One that women really like that not many men ask for is you edge him and he edges you. Yeah, I was really surprised by that one. Aging in women is popular, but not in men. Yeah, I don't know what that I don't even know. I'm not really into edging personally, so it's like hard for me to develop theories for that.I've never met someone who told me they were into edging, but apparently men don't ask this enough, so Yeah. To be fair, in this survey, the I actually didn't use identical phrasings for both of the edgings, so it's possible that there's some artifact making, like, the gender thing different, but the [00:30:00] absolute location of them are correct.But yeah, I don't know. Here's one that almost all women are into, or a lot of women are into, but like guys don't realize women are into, he's experimental, suggesting unusual things, or he asks you to try an unusual but inoffensive fetish. So knowing your inoffensive fetishes as a guy is actually pretty safe with women.Even if there's one that was like, it even showed, even if you're not interested in it. I can't remember what that was. Like, that was the word you used. I think that might be the unusual but inoffensive fetish one, I think. Okay, I can't remember. Another one that's actually pretty common for, that I think would surprise a lot of people is He's aroused by your pain.Yeah, the sadism. Yeah. Yeah, that's the sadism gap. Men just don't like hurting women that much, which is so funny because like a lot of like the anti porn feminist stuff is like, oh, porn is corrupting [00:31:00] men to make them like more brutal and rough with women. And I'm like, porn is accurately updating men.Excuse me. It's so funny you say this. So, we wanted to do an episode and this is what actually encouraged one of the things that encouraged us to reach out to you is I wanted to do a The data versus Mary Harrington. I like Mary Harrington. I've met her. We've done interviews with her. She's a nice person, but she will go out and say things like men like choking women because they watch porn and this means they hate women or like they look down on women.I'm like, no women like being choked and not enough damn men are choking them. That's what the data says. Yep, absolutely. This is like one of the most robust findings around sex research, is that women desperately want men to do this more. Although to be clear, this is like pretty bimodal for women. So like, this is like the hurt me, please me spectrums that we have been talking about.Like, like, this might be why we're seeing such like a pushback publicly. It's because like women either really like being choked [00:32:00] and hurt or they f*****g hate it. And so you probably have women who f*****g hate it, who are like, What the hell? Porn is teaching men to do things to me that I don't want them to do, and they sort of typical mind assume all of the other women are the same.Whereas like if things were like more, you know, normal distribution, maybe that those are less polarizing for the discourse. Yeah, no, I think that's really powerful. And I think that that's where we need to move. Like if you're having the honest discourse, which is what we try to do on this podcast, the truth is, is that this is a bimodal thing you need to establish before you sleep with someone, whether or not this is something that they're interested in no.that many more women who are interested in this have their partners actually doing it with them. But there is a portion of women who sleep with men who are trained to do this by the many women they're sleeping with because on average, like half of women are into this. And then they do it with this one woman who like hates it.Like it's a very bimodal and they're like, Oh my God, how could you have done that to me? Do you hate me? Do you hate women? Are you a monster? Did you learn this from porn? And it's like, no, I learned it from my ex. She told me she liked it. I don't know.[00:33:00]Yep, absolutely. Although I don't, I don't know, I mean, the data might say it's bimodal, my experience is it's like 80 percent of women. Well, it might be some selection effect. So like, I have two boyfriends right now. One of the boyfriends is like, Hmm, it sure seems like almost every woman I have sex with wants me to hurt her.That's interesting. I have my other boyfriend. It's like, I just have never really come across women who want rough sex. And I'm just like, Whoa, tell me, I don't need to know who they are. I want to know the personality profile. How are they attracting these two different categories? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, so they both have extremely high body count.So it's not like there's something that they're putting out that's attracting different women. So I'm saying, I think you might be putting out the, like, somehow, I don't know. But like, it's interesting because both of them are quite traditionally male and like dominant feeling. They're both like, I'm a man who will ravish you, but in different ways.I think one of them's a lot [00:34:00] sweeter. Oh, is the one who attracts the women who don't want that sweeter? No. Oh, okay. So here's the, here's the hypothesis. Oh, sorry. I don't want yes. Sorry. I was confused by your The one who, we don't want to attract women who want to be hurt. Sweet guy attracts vanilla girls.But to be fair, he's still quite, I, sweet feels like it's not really summing it up. He's much more emotive. He's like very emotional, like can sink into his body, embodied, like very, like, Is this the one I met? Cause he seemed very sweet to me. Which one did you, I thought, did you not meet both of them? Oh, I thought I, I don't know.I, I, I, the number one main squeeze guy who I've referenced before. Oh yeah, that was the, he's definitely more of that. He attracts women who are more like so brutally submissive. No, we're not naming anyone. We're not. Okay. Okay. No. Okay. So being named, to be clear, I really want this guy right now or something and like [00:35:00] talking about your relationship.It's fine. I like it. Yeah, it's, it's been going well, he, he likes it when I talk about him because he was the one that wrote me like the, you're not that pretty card. I don't know if you saw this at all. I love that post. Continue. But that was in private Kayla room, right? In, I posted this on Twitter and I found people started writing.This is one of the things that people wrote articles about. Sorry, I never know what's from the private chat and what's not. Yeah, it's okay. Okay, tell, talk about this. This is a good one. Yeah. So he wrote, he told me I wasn't that pretty. It was in context. It made more sense because I was like, I think everybody's gaslighting me about how hot I am.They're saying I'm pretty. I don't think I'm that pretty. And he was like, yeah, you're not that pretty. I was like, my poor heart. Anyway, he wrote me a card saying, I'm sorry, because it was very sweet moment that he ruined by saying that. I'm glad he did anyway. And then I posted on Twitter and went viral.And then at the end of the viral tweet, I was like. If anybody wants to apply to have sex with him, here's a, here's a form you can fill out. Did you talk about [00:36:00] how good he was in bed? He very, he, this is, he can call me not that pretty all day. Okay. His dick is fire. So, which is interesting. So the, the former actually got quite a lot of responses.I think he had 150 women fill it out and he has had sex with a lot of them at this point. Which is interesting that something like that attracts so many women. Like my guess is that. they were seeing him sort of neg me in a sense and like I'm like relatively like in this context high status right because I'm like have a lot of followers or whatever and so they were perceiving him like oh if I can have sex with this guy this sort of means that I'm special about having sex with him you have had sex with lots of people when I was younger I had a high body count but one of the primary mechanisms that serves girls for me was other girls opinions of sleeping with me.One girl would tell all her friends, one you can sleep with him, he's safe, and he's like, fun in these ways. And I think that guys underestimate it. It's so funny, all these red [00:37:00] pillers are out there, like, trying to be like, And it's not, like, I identify as a red piller to some extent. I think they see some things that are true, but, like, they try to be, like, tough and, like, and, and cruel towards women in a way sometimes, and it's, like, the easiest way to get women to have sex with you is to have another woman who they respect saying, you should go and have sex with this guy.Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is the Girl Whisper Network. This is the reason I originally had sex with this guy, actually, is because one of my friends, who he used to date, was like, I think you might really enjoy sex with him. And I was like, take your This is a good voucher. I'll go try it. Sure not to be right. Very Catherine Green of you.Very what? Well, Katherine the Great used to have a person I don't know if this is myth, but it's at least heavily canonized myth that Katherine the Great used to have a woman who was supposed to sleep with all of her potential partners before her to see if they were worth her time. That's so smart.Wait, I should get one of these! Wait, no, I think I did. Like, cause, cause his [00:38:00] partner, he has another girlfriend who I like. Quite a lot. And she's so super slutty, so I can just have, and we have very similar sex tastes, just ask her. I love this. You need an AILA vetting system. He needs a vetting system now.Well, I mean, with 150 potential. applicants here. This is what you get for sexually pleasing someone like Ayla. You get it published on Twitter and then a huge pool of applicants coming to you. But hold on, actually, I want to, I, I think when you talk about the sweet guy versus the not sweet guy contrarianism, I actually think contrarianism might be the difference.Is this, is the guy who is attracting the vanilla girls, not a contrarian? Well, no, it's. It's, well, depends what you mean by contrarian. I would say Does he like, like, arguing and disagreeing with the mainstream perspective? No, not, not in that way, I think. Oh, okay. But he's very good at holding his ground and not like, giving in to what [00:39:00] women sort of want.Like, he passed the s**t test with flying colors kind of thing. Oh, so this is the first thing with me? Speaking of s**t tests, because people, okay, first I'll define a s**t test for people who don't know what that are. It says, theory was in the red pill community that women will test you for your dominance.To be like, hey, you, you know, whatever, right? When I was dating around, like, and sleeping around, I never got s**t tests. I've gotten like maybe two s**t tests in my entire life. I bet you got s**t tests. I bet you got s**t tested though. You think I'm just too, I'm too blind to notice that they were s**t testing me.I was just like, because like the way that red pillars talk about s**t tests are usually extremely obvious. Like the girl will like insult you and see if you felt her or she'll like, ask you to hold her purse is the classic example. But I think the vast majority of s**t tests are significantly subtler.And they're more like, like asking you a question to see if you try to like, say a response that feels like you're trying to make her happy, like stuff like that. Oh, For reference, by the way, if a [00:40:00] woman ever asked me to hold her purse, I wouldn't take that as a s**t test. I would hold her purse. Like, women need help sometimes.It's only when you s**t test in, like, trad culture or something. It's not a s**t test in normal culture. They're just, like, inconsiderate and they think they're being s**t tested. But I love what you're saying. You're probably right there. Is they would ask me stuff, or maybe the reason they didn't s**t test me is it was obvious I didn't care what they, like, mainstream society thought or what their opinion was.And I think what the test might be deployed for is men who are trying to get a woman to sleep with them by pretending to mirror their belief system. Yeah, very much. I think this is very close to the sex, did you read the sex is a status game post that I wrote? I liked it. Okay. Tell me, tell me more about the reference here.I wrote a post, so this is, it is sort of like a, I think should test our subcategory. It's one of the tabs I have open on my screen right now, but continue. Yeah. It's, it's not a huge deal, but it's just describing like the ways that we do status games in interactions and how this is like very prevalent.And it's a lot of people have like a really negative [00:41:00] connotation with the concept of status, but it doesn't have to be. Often it's very like game like and often it's very like playful. Like when you're flirting with somebody, this Often involves a lot of status play. And so like I break down videos of like analyzing how like the status play is happening and like romantic interactions or whatever.But I think that s**t tests are like one subcategory of this. Like you want to, you're testing the guy to see if he can like, not. Be broken underneath your will or something. That's like a strong way of putting it, but it's much more subtler. It's something like, is this guy, am I seeing who this guy is, or am I seeing like a version of this guy who's like trying to warp himself into something to get into my pants?So, guys might not understand how important this is for women. Like, this is not an idle thing. So when I've been giving women, like, dating and sex advice and stuff like that, they're like, how do I tell if a guy's just telling me what I want to hear or if he is actually being honest to who he is because I'm looking for Either a long term partner or something like that, right?And a lot of guys learn, they can just tell them what they want to hear to get the [00:42:00] woman to sleep with them. There is a reason for women to be vetting for this, but I think that there's a certain type of guy. I might be an example of this. Who's just so obviously not telling people what they want to hear that they don't need to test it that much.Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's probably what's going on. They're like, oh, this guy doesn't give a s**t when I think about him. Okay. . Yeah, he, whatever he feels like. Anyway, I, I love this. This is fun. I, I, I, I hate, so I love that I have a podcast now that I have a reason to have you on to talk with me, because I'm the type of person who like doesn't reach out to talk with my friends unless there's some immediate utility to me.Yeah, same. I'm like, okay, what's the advantage of talking to this individual right now? Which is so horrible. I'm assuming you're passing that way, I guess. But I, I consider you a good friend. And so I'm glad that I have this excuse to chat with you in a way that potentially advances both of our interests.And to advance her interests, you need to go. And if you want to learn how to be good in bed for your long term partner, or if you're like, oh, I'm not sure if this weird thing [00:43:00] I'm into is actually normal to be into. Learn if you're actually a friend. Freaky, pathetic weirdo, or if you're, if you're not, but you've got to get behind the paywall.I'm not giving you the paywall stuff. I actually thought like after I read your article, I was like, this would be a good solo episode and I can put it on the screen. And I'm like, I'm not going to do that. We got to get you subscribed. I decided to try to earn money because I've been doing free research, publishing and quite a lot of work for years.I'm like, you know what, maybe I should try to get a little bit of pay. So I'm pay well on some of it now. Well, you, you, what's, what was the point of sleeping with all these people? If you didn't, if you weren't doing it to collect data so that now you can turn around and use it on the public and be like, Hey, do you want somebody who objectively has more data on sleeping with people than Maybe all but a hundred thousand people in human history.It's like her and Genghis Khan here, people. You're not going to get better advice. Oh, thanks. [00:44:00] It's a great interview. No, it's, it's true. I think it's like objectively, you probably know more about sex and is one of the reasons why your research is good. You also, if you watch the first interview I did with her in this series, I did one before, before doing this one.You're so obviously like autistic y you're so stilted when like you start conversations and stuff like that. Like you're just interested in the data and you're like, yes, that data is true. That is what I found in my study. It was interesting.What I'm saying is people think they think, oh, this woman's a quote unquote sex worker or whatever. That means that she must be like a charismatic type woman. And, and you are not a charismatic type woman. You are. I can't occasionally be good at role-playing it. I feel like I've learned to like step into like the hot woman charisma.Oh. Talk about this. How do you role play a charismatic, feminine woman? Like what are you embodying when you do that? I have this video on YouTube, which is like a guide to [00:45:00] being seductive or something. Where I go through all of like the concrete small shifts to my body language that I make in order to like become a woman that men find attractive.But I just do cam girl. I was saying, check out this video. That's what I'm telling the audience. Because with cam grilling, it's like a, you see who live stream people watching and you tip to you. And so you get like money based on the, how much you can, how hot you can be and generate their money. And so I did this over time and you get very rapid feedback.Like people are, they're giving you money that are not. And like your average money earning like affects your rankings. So you have like really clear, like. Feedback about like the kinds of things that you're doing that lead to people giving you more money and over time I did this for like five or six years over time I figured out that like Oh different body language in different ways.I use my voice generates more tips And so this is like brute force like iteration led to being able to be like a hot woman It's not just brute force iteration. I've watched interviews with you where you're like, I looked up the top [00:46:00] videos in the camming site and stuff like that. I tried to develop patterns in the statistics of these videos.I tried to emulate them. Yeah, I had like instructions on the wall behind me for like different body language things that I would look and like, remember to keep doing. Yeah, you guys are not that aroused by like autist girl. Guys are aroused by like horny girl. And so you have to like signal sexual arousal and, and availability and vulnerability pretty, pretty hard.What is the number one advice you'd give to a girl who was on a date who didn't know how to signal this? I mean, if she's like me, I know what advice to give, but like people are not sexy in very different ways. Audience is. Disproportionately, severely autistic.I promise you. When you said that, it's like you don't understand how autistic they are. You do not understand. These people are little Simones. Imagine you're giving advice to, I don't know if she's like you, but she has an aspect of [00:47:00] you in that regard. Yeah, this is true. I don't know, maybe like talk slower and use simpler language.Don't use big words and speak slow. Literally talk to a man like they're little dumb animals. They will think that you are a little dumb animal and that is what they want to believe. You need to simplify your language. You need to, I love it. I love it. I actually wonder if that's something I could, I couldn't do that if I was told to do that.I'd never be able to. Oh gosh. There was something else I wanted to ask you that I was really excited about. In regards to that, I forget a really fun one might be to do like a interview version of like a, how do you get escorts thing? I love, she did a full thing on how to actually like what the process of hiring an escort and vetting an escort is like, and I would never do this, but it was fascinating to read.And I suspect being cross culturally because [00:48:00] when I was in Korea, the process of hiring an escort was different. Yeah. Yeah, my, Oh, was it really? I don't know. I just know that businessmen like they would ask me like other VCs and stuff like that. They'd be like, do you want to go hang out with an escort tonight?Like in the U S this doesn't happen as much, but in Korea, this is pretty normal. I was like, I'm married. And they're like, what does that have to do with anything? . Yeah, we're getting an escort. We're not marrying her. . Yeah. I think the cultural attitude towards escorts was so different over there.Have you, have you done anything in Japan or Korea or anything like that? No. That might be an interesting marketstudying. Yeah. I don't, I have no idea where to start there, but we could try. We have to relearn the whole game, I think. No, no, no, I wouldn't reload the whole game. This is what I do. Okay, so I'm just business advice here. Go to Japan and Korea. Find out who the [00:49:00] number one escort or sexual influencer is in both of those cultures.Whoever the individual is, they will almost certainly know who you are or be likely to reply to you. Do cross Promotion with them, i. e. Have them write something for your blog about their culture, sexual practices, and then do an episode with them on their podcast or anything like that. And you will both draw an audience that neither of you has full access to right now.That's actually a pretty good idea. Here's, here's another one I want to hear your thoughts on. I remembered what I wanted to hear. So Simone and I did an episode on that whole, you know, yum, yum, yum trend and stuff like that. Like idol sexualization. You know the one I'm talking about, right? What do you think is going on there?And what are your thoughts on that? As somebody who, like, studies what people like. Well, I know that I kept watching it. I don't know if it had the same impact on you. But, like, everybody's talking about it. It kept being on my timeline. And I noticed that every time a video came on my [00:50:00] timeline, I just wanted to watch it again.And I'm like, there must be something. There's something in it that's, like, hitting my brain that, like, must be also hitting other people's brains. It was difficult for me to tell. So, why not even detect it? Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily sexual. Although you just add a sex drive on top of it and it might amplify it.Like a lot of sexual things are kind of like that for people who want that. We need a meme of when Simone was pretending to do it. She did a very good job. Yeah. I'd love to do that. She's like, kind of reminds me of like, characters, Pixar characters, you take like the most expressive features and you blow it up.And sometimes on TikTok, people like replicate, you know, Pixar animation style, where they're like, they'll like do a thing and, you know, talk as though they're an animated character and everything is like more exaggerated and like more caricature y. And this is very much sort of what she was doing. Like, I think if I remember correctly, she had like makeup that emphasized like more [00:51:00] neotenous or whatever, and then had the very caricature, like animated kind of expressions.I mean, these words also remind me of something that We were talking about on this, which is that people think that these people are like idiots who are doing this or something like that. These women, like one of the main ones who did this, there were two main ones has a, a kid she's trying to provide for the kid.This is all about like long term career stuff. Like if you watch her videos, like analyzing how she caught this wave, how she exploited this wave, it's all very much career focused. And that is not something to grade her for, you know, she's doing this to support a kid and give them a good life. Oh, yeah, there's no, like, yeah, she, when people do this, they look dumb, which is maybe why people think they are dumb.But like in order to be on that sort of wave early, you have to have some level of like intelligence and boldness. It's like really hard to be on the front row of a viral thing and like not be that smart. Yeah. She's probably like above average IQ. Yeah, well, I don't want to hold you forever. I know [00:52:00] this was the end of this.I'm just having fun talking to you now at this point. I'm just like, oh, I'm chatting with Ayla. Oh, oh, here's something I could do on the fetish, the, the fetish one is things that guys do. Okay, here's something that I guess I shouldn't be that surprised about because everybody tells you this.Something that guys do a lot that women are not actually interested in is he focuses primarily on your vagina as opposed to your clitoris. Yeah, and this one is interesting because in one of my updated Surveys where this one is just about what men do, but then I had another survey where men predict what women like and which is separate from what they're actually doing and men over predicted women's preference for focus on clitoris.So this is not because men are not aware that women do not like clitoris stimulation, they just don't want to as much as women want it. I'm going to be honest. It's too much effort. I don't, I don't really care. No, if you're a guy who's getting a lot of, a lot of them just don't, [00:53:00] the other one I was surprised about that both men did a lot and women liked a lot, because I didn't think either one of these things would be the case is doggy style.Yeah. Doggy style is an incredibly difficult position to make good in my like experience. Really like for you or for her, for both? It might be because I'm a tall guy. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. I've definitely seen girls doggie pie with a scarf on before. You can't really do that much in terms of grabbing or touching other erogenous zones because, you know, you're in a position where to do that you have to put additional weight on her, which I would prefer not to do.And then the woman's in a position where you, you need to align perfectly. Not all women of all height and all men of all height can doggie style. You need to have a very Tight matchup for that to work. For it to be one of the most aligned things that guys do a lot and women like a [00:54:00] lot was very surprising to me.Yeah, maybe it's less surprising to me, but maybe it's because I like it more than you like it. Yeah, yeah, maybe these logistical problems aren't a problem for you and you're not like, Oh, yes, doggy style is always a logistical nightmare. Well, I mean, it can be. It's definitely like one of the less comfortable, but there's something Like, it hits like an unusual Like, it's like a different kind of feeling, which is really nice.And I think it's a little bit more dehumanizing, which is good. And also from the man's perspective, you can like more clearly see a penis entering. So if you were visually stimulated by watching penis, But what you're watching and entering is undifferentiated from a man often. I'm seeing a woman from the back.I'm not seeing any of the sexually dimorphic characteristics. I'm not seeing breasts. I'm not seeing a face. Women don't have as much of that as most women think they do. [00:55:00] Holy s**t. Bird. Oh gosh, am I?Women need to get over themselves. Okay. Here's a fun thing that you might find fun, which has changed about Simone recently. So Simone recently has changed to long hair. She's growing out her hair again to have like medium lengths, long hair. And something that I've noticed is that at different stages of a woman's life, there's different optimal like look categories.Like when Simone was in this younger category, I really preferred the short hair. Which to me was like the Vulcan look. I always loved that look. Or recently we were watching Hackers was like early Angelina Jolie. I know why, like, I like this short hair look, right? But it doesn't work for middle aged women.And so she needs to change the way she's presenting to be sort of maximally, and it's not just me, it's also for society as well. Like society does not respect short hair, middle aged women. Short hair is for young women. [00:56:00] Like, what are your thoughts on other things where, like, you can change your optimization as you age?I mean, like, in general, long hair is more feminine overall. In general, men tend to prefer long hair. It's more associated with youth. So, but it's like, like, there's points you can spend. Like, there's memes about how, like, you know you're pretty if you can pull off a bald look. And if you're not pretty, you can't afford to cut your hair.And so Simone's like quite pretty and so it seems like she's sort of like has a lot of pretty points to spend before it actually starts impacting people's attraction to her which makes sense that she can pull off short hair. But in general, you want to maximize this like these signs of youth as much as possible once you hit your 30s.Yeah. Well, I mean, you could optimize for different things. Like when you're older and you're still trying to optimize signs of youth, it's pretty bad. Like it doesn't, it doesn't. This is actually interesting and I'd love to see. I, I suspect that this is the path you're going to go as a sex icon, which is a lot of sex icons sort of refuse to give up the ephemera of youth.You know, this [00:57:00] is Madonna moves. Madonna. Who am I thinking of? Yeah. Madonna or Marilyn. No, Madonna. Yeah. She keeps trying to look young. Like she tries to capture this young look. Where I actually think that as you're aging, you could probably get a wider audience by appealing to a new kink around your new age category.Probably, but my guess is people still like hot, older women. If you're an older woman, you probably want one that looks like a young, like a aged healthfully, healthfully, older woman. And a lot of people have plastic surgery. You don't notice like a lot of like older celebrities that look short of their age.Maybe it just looks like they've aged super well and are still kind of pretty. They've probably had a ton of plastic surgery. So yeah, I plan on. Surgery it up real hard, but you can only, Oh yeah, I've already surgeried myself. I am a transhumanist. Like I would like to modify my body as much as possible.Well, I'll tell you what I can't tell. You look fantastic. I love hearing about people who have surgeried [00:58:00] themselves generally. I'm not a fan of it. Simone is, continue. Well, it's, it's, I think it's like suffers from sort of visibility bias like kind of like trans people. Like you notice if somebody's trans, if they're not passing well, and if they pass, you don't even notice that they're trans.So in your mind, all the trans people you've seen are bad at passing. I think the same is with plastic surgery. All the plastic surgery you've seen is by definition bad plastic surgery, but tons of people get little tweaks all the time. You never know. I'm going to counter here. I think that you're right about plastic surgery with trans people.I, I heard something on trans people recently that really stuck with me. Which is that most trans people don't pass like the, the, the, the, the passing trans person is actually pretty rare. And that because of that trans people sort of rely on society. To go along with this sort of delusion, not, not this delusion, but like to agree with them.And this is why it's so important for the trans movement to push so hard on this issue. Because. Most trans people don't pass [00:59:00] and they rely on everyone pretending that they do. Yeah. I agree with this, which I think is actually quite cruel for trans people. Like you're doing like this weird psychological thing where like, yes, you're a woman and you, but like other people aren't going to treat you like a woman.But like, we're saying that that's not what a woman is. And then I think it's like, just creates a lot of confusion and dysphoria for them, which is terrible. But I still, I did update in this direction after like occasionally meeting people that I thought were cis that turned out to be translator. And.And I agree that, like, maybe this is rarer than, than not passing or something. But after having that experience, I realized that, oh, like my felt sense of like the passingness of trans people is like actually has been off because I was failing to take into consideration these people that I knew personally that turned out to actually be trans.And that, that did shift the way that I viewed trans people, like the passingness. Oh, that's really fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. And that would, that would make a lot of sense. Like NikkieTutorials. the YouTuber? No, I don't. I'll look this up. NikkieTutorials is somebody, like, I was aware of [01:00:00] vaguely for many years.She's this, like, this woman who does makeup tutorials. She's, to me, she's just been like a lady. Clearly a lady. She's just a woman. And then at one point she had a coming out where she admitted that she was trans. And I was like, holy! Holy f**k. I think that was actually probably one of the best things that happened to a trans woman.I would have thought she was trans because she was Yeah, when I catch trans women who otherwise pass it's because they're attractive, but she's not attractive enough for me to question it. I don't know if I'm doing this consultingly, but yeah. Yeah, sure. She sounds like a woman. Like, I don't know. This is, this is like when I'm like, if you're, if you're a transphobe and you're like, oh, but like you call her a man, I feel like that's just, there's something weird going on.Like she's clearly not. Well, yeah, the Simone has the horrifying opinion. I don't know if you've seen, we have the, what is a woman episode and Simone's like, yeah, I consider someone a woman if they pass. And that is like the most offensive thing you can say, but I genuinely think that's the way most people feel.[01:01:00] Yeah. That was basically what I argued in my article. Like what also called what, what a woman is where I'm like, like, I think by definition, the way that we've practically used. The concept of a trans, of a woman is somebody who looks like a woman, which I, so I think, I think I'm very pro trans and I think we need to develop better technology to help people pass.Because like, if I were trans, I would want to like go all the way to the opposite side and be convincing. And that would be the thing that feels best for me. And I think everybody should have access to that. Well, I mean, I think that we should have technology that doesn't mean that they need to fully transition.I think that we should have technology that allows them to fill any body type they want. And I think a lot of trans people who I know don't actually want to fully transition. They want to be FUDA. They want to be, you know, many other things, but like, they, they, they, the, the problem is, is right now there's like this ghoulish plastic surgery monster that isn't necessarily particularly different from an old woman who's trying to be a young woman.It's not unique to transness, it's just a [01:02:00] product of the technology that we have right now. But as we move forward, Yeah, it is tragic. It is tragic. I agree. And especially when you attribute that much trauma to being like misgendered and stuff like that, I can't imagine how much pain they experience every day.No, of course, I'm really hoping AI gives us like updates in tech that allows us to modify bodies in a way that like helps dysphoria. I think that'd be lovely. Well, I think what we're actually going to see before that is people are Not interacting in person as much anymore. And I think that this will enable non in person interactions at a higher level within this community, where they can better model themselves as their types of things within online environments, because I think that comes before better.Transition technology. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. That would be awesome. But yeah. Oh, actually, here's a question for you. How could you arbitrage, well, I guess [01:03:00] the sheer content you have of you. Yeah. You could use that to arbitrage your online environments.Yeah. That would be cool. I mean, it probably doesn't, it probably wouldn't be that hard for somebody else to compete. Like you just have to generate that. It doesn't take that long, I think, to generate as much information to make good models, but yeah. Well, I've had a blast talking to you. I'm sorry, I'm just looking for excuses to keep talking to you, cause it's, I don't, I don't bother.And you guys remember when we first met and I was like, ah, person that I like. Oh yeah, no, so we met the first time and we ended up talking till like 3am that day. And I was just like, oh my god, I, I love this person so much. And, and I don't do that. I do not stay up late. People don't know this about me.Yeah, I can be. with a billionaire and I will take naps in between talking sessions. Because it kills me, you know, I, I cannot stay up. You were just like so compelling to me. Yeah, you too. [01:04:00] It was like meeting a kid. It's like, Oh my God, somebody from, I don't know what tribe we're, we're both from, but it was like, felt like meeting somebody from your hometown or something.It was really nice. No, no, I did. You know, it was like a sister or something. As I said, like, I don't, I don't, I don't identify with, I identify with my brother. You need to meet my brother. You'd like my need to come out of here sometime. When you start having kids we'll bring you out. We gotta, I have, I have pushed hard for who I think would be a good father in a few unsubtle suggestions who, who seems to have a level of dedication to you and cares about you.But this is just me as an outsider saying this is a physically fit, intellectually sharp person who seems to care about you. Yeah, well, we will see. I am going through an egg freezing process soon, so there will be Oh, please do. The world I need my kids to have partners. You know we're doing arranged marriages for our kids, right?I hope they like [01:05:00] that. No, no, we don't they don't have to do the arranged marriage. The way it works, we give them an option and we say, if you don't take this option, we're not doing it again. And a lot of people are like, Oh, that's horrifying. Like, how could you do that? Like, you know, and when we talked to like young people about this and they're like, I love this idea.Like if only somebody was just like, okay, here's your one choice. Take it or leave it. Your parents thought it was a good option. They know their parents. If you have kids, I'm definitely putting you in the pool. I'll be sending you a letter. If you have kids around my kids age to marry and they're like competent, like non like spaz out.We'll be like, okay, we have vetted you and your partner. You both seem intellectually competent healthy individuals. Well, this is the thing. You're like, why do you want to marry somebody like was in your family? Well, like who do you see as a sister? It's like, no, no, no. If you see somebody as a sister, it means you don't want them.You don't want to sleep with them. I don't want to [01:06:00] have kids with you, but the best marriages are second cousin marriages in terms of producing genetically healthy offspring. So, well, then we have to keep this recording then so that they can play it at their wedding one day. Yeah. Right. They'll be like, Oh my God, those creepshave a spectacular day. This has been a lot of fun to talk and you know, our podcast is actually doing well. Do you know, right now we're at 13. 7 thousand hours of watch time per 28 day period. Wow, dude, good job. Yeah, we have about like 13 people watching us talk at any given time. Anyway, I really appreciate it and have a spectacular day. And I'm glad that things are going well with you in this this project you're doing that how to have sex better. Because it is such a [01:07:00] good niche for you.Thanks. Have a great day. Okay. Bye bye. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

We explore recent studies finding high rates of dark triad personality traits like narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism among antinatalists. We argue antinatalism correlates more with these pathological traits than with depression. We discuss how the inability of narcissists to genuinely consider other perspectives makes them project their negative worldview. We also touch on how child support laws may select against dark triad traits in the population.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] the, the core personality traits that appear to be associated with antinatalism are generally dark triad personality traits, but specifically antagonistic narcissism, psychopathic meanness, psychopathic disinhibition, and antagonistic Machiavellianism.And then the other article that looked into this found. Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy were the primary traits that predicted antinatalist belief systems and then secondarily was depression. But you often found them together.Simone Collins: Yeah, and the difference is that we had thought that depression was first and foremost the big correlatory factor.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. You needed to be a narcissistic psychopath. And if you are a narcissistic psychopath and depressed, you're likely to be an antinatalist. You're aSimone Collins: sad narcissisticMalcolm Collins: psychopath. Like the level of narcissistic sociopathy that would deny life to another person. Who would want to [00:01:00] live just because you personally would prefer to kill yourself, but don't want to take the responsibility of killing yourself. To me, it's just this insane level of sociopathy. These studies helped me understand why we have such trouble getting through to the antinatalist community with logical arguments. Because it was never based on logic to begin with. It was always a psychiatric condition.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: Known. Just sad. They'reSimone Collins: being beautiful. But,Malcolm Collins: I love you to death, Simone, and I am excited to be doing this episode because I always love, I mean, greatSimone Collins: thing we love shitting all over people and who doesn't holdMalcolm Collins: on. The great thing about the prenatal movement and and being seen as sort of its leaders is the an, an antithesis of us, the antinatalists movement.It's just so like, every time I dig deeper, it somehow is worse than I could have conceived it was. It's somehow [00:02:00] crazier than I could have conceived it was. And it's somehow more just like, transparently, and obviously the bad guys, in sort of this conflicting Like, like, it's like You know, I don't feel like there's been a fight in a long time where there were, like, obvious bad guys and good guys since, like, World War II and fighting the Nazis.You know, people sort of almost reminisce about these old times where there was a very obvious good guy side and a very obvious bad guy side. And the antinatalist movement, you know, they, they're like, well, we have to keep humans alive so we can kill all life on the planet too. But let's let's go into like how they came up again recently for us, right?Is I was having to do an audit of how different terms do and how our movement is doing in different search results. And the audit was actually kind of depressing for me in many ways. And that I'll look up something like demographic collapse and when I'm doing it in like an incognito browser, everything's like, this is why demographic collapse isn't a problem at all.[00:03:00] Demographic collapse, fake science.Simone Collins: Everything's okay here situation normal.Malcolm Collins: Actually, I should do some screenshots of this because I know, I know in like Two years when it's just so obvious that this is an issue. Everyone's going to say no one was ever saying that everyone always knew this was an issue.How dare like, it was funny. We had a reporter over from France at our house yesterday. And she goes, what do you think of all these you know, researchers at universities who are saying you guys are fake science and that you guys are making all this up. And I'm like, I love that they're saying this.Please put them on record because the more of them you put on record, the better I'm going to look in a few years when it turns out that we were 100 percent correct. And right now I'm like not even predicting this future data. It's like my scary predictions are just what's in the data right now. And they're not looking year to year at how bad things have gotten.But anyway, antinatalists are different, right? Like, they're not deniers that this is a problem. A lot of antinatalists know how bad fertility rates have gotten. They just think it's a morally good thing for people whoSimone Collins: want to learn more. Yeah, it cheers them up, which [00:04:00] means a lot, because they're often very depressed.Malcolm Collins: But we can talk about that, because there's statistics on this now. So this is something I hadn't thought to do, was to actually look up the statistics that correlated with antinatalism. And my naive thought from reading the antinatalist post is that depression would be the primary correlating psychological condition with antinatalism.AndSimone Collins: my naive thought actually, like we, we had a debate with leading antinatalists of at least one faction, John and Lawrence Anton in London. And they were incredibly like, it was clear that they were in it because they were Deeply, deeply, philosophically, intellectually concerned negative utilitarians.Like we ate in a vegan restaurant for dinner. You'reMalcolm Collins: autistic and you're bad at reading people. That is not why they were in it. No. No. And we can get into this more, but I think that you just believe whatever anyone tells you if they're being affable and kind. Yep. They were being affable and they told you something.And so you believed it because you're not [00:05:00] very good at reading people. It was a good veganSimone Collins: restaurant we went to though. It wasMalcolm Collins: a great vegan restaurant. But anyway so everybody knows, you know, and we've done episodes on this if people want to go into it more the psychological trait that is really overwhelmingly overrepresented in the pronatalist movement is autism.This is where the, the joke in the pronatalist movement of the greater replacement theory comes from. That the autists are going to replace everyone else. But I'd also say it's not just autism that is overwhelmingly seen in the pronatalist movement. Transcribed there's two other traits that I've noticed really, really big in the pronatalist movement.Oh my God. One is general high mood, like general happiness. Most of the pronatalists we know are like, I'd say bubbly people, maybe evenSimone Collins: a little Yeah, you're right. Low anxiety, low neuroticism, relatively speaking, from a type of person who often you would expect to be high neuroticism. Like at the natalism conference, a lot of like really big intellectual speakers and, and, and thinkers, like, you know, [00:06:00] high caliber, high caliber people were there.And yet they, the ones who had kids were like pretty chill for that. No,Malcolm Collins: it's a very low neuroticism movement and I'd say very high pro sociality. Like natural prosociality. So I'd say high autism, low neuroticism, a bit higher than normal prosociality. And you saw this at the conference, like the conference felt really weird to me because typically when I go to conferences where there's like something that people are like autistically obsessed with, you get higher than normal neuroticism within those communities.And it was a very interesting environment because you both had the autistic, like, Oh, everyone here is automatically my friend and I'm going to go up and talk to them and be nice to them. And you, you have like an anime convention or something like that, but then you didn't have the like constant fear from some people there where it's like constantly little explosions are happening.Cause one group thinks everyone else is their friend. And then the other [00:07:00] group is like super neurotic about people coming up and trying to engage with them. Don't touch me. So that was amazing. But so I'm looking up the statistics on, on what is most correlated with anti natalism. And I found, it turns out that there's actually like a body of literature on this at least multiple studies.And it seems like more than this because one here is talking about a larger body of studies here. So this has been at least replicated twice. So the, the core personality traits that appear to be associated with antinatalism are generally dark triad personality traits, but specifically antagonistic narcissism, psychopathic meanness, psychopathic disinhibition, and antagonistic Machiavellianism.I didn't evenSimone Collins: know that, like, wait. So what's the opposite of antagonistic Machiavellianism? I guess like super love bombing Machiavellianism. Is that [00:08:00] me? Is that me? Am I love bombing yet?Malcolm Collins: So, so this, this article that I was just quoting from came from dark personality traits and antinatalist beliefs, the mediating role of primal world beliefs.And then the other article that looked into this specifically this other article found. Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy were the primary traits that predicted antinatalist belief systems and then secondarily was depression. But you often found them together.Simone Collins: Yeah, and the difference is that we had thought that depression was first and foremost the big correlatory factor.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. You needed to be a narcissistic psychopath. And if you are a narcissistic psychopath and depressed, you're likely to be an antinatalist. You're aSimone Collins: sad narcissisticMalcolm Collins: psychopath. But it's something I actually see you know, and I think that this is a thing when we're talking about the people we met and stuff like that, Simone.And, and this can, I think for a lot of people, they hear antinatalist beliefs. And there is this like really, really [00:09:00] flimsy justification for antinatalism. If anybody wants to hear our argument as to why it's not, like, like why we go deep into the logic of antinatalism, you can watch our video These People Want Everyone Dead and Are Weirdly Reasonable About It.Or just, you know, look up the antinatalism video for Basecamp. And we go deep on that, but I always felt kind of uncomfortable with it, because when I go over the arguments antinatalism, it is so logically sort of shaky and, and really contrived that I, I sort of have this feeling, like, how, how are people arriving at this belief?And I was like, well, there must be a large amount of depressed people in the community, which there are, like, objectively, if you look at what antinatalist posts there are. But I, I was, I was still pretty confused. Now when I'm looking at how common narcissism and psychopathy are within the community, it really explains things for me.So, imagine you are just like an incredibly narcissistic [00:10:00] person and anyone who has met with or known narcissistic people. People who have narcissism, even if they're fairly smart people, it's a psychological condition that makes it almost impossible for them to genuinely consider the world from another person's perspective.And so you, you have this inability to genuinely consider, and what does it mean to consider things from another person's perspective? Because I think that people hear this and they don't understand what I'm saying, like, like a, a narcissistic person could hear this and be like, I think about things from other people's perspectives all the time.And it's like, no, when a narcissist tries to think about the world from another person's perspective, they just clone their own personality and their own intentions onto the other person. They don't consider, well, you know, we'll, we'll talk about how you don't actually do that in a second, because I think that you're being overly disingen dis, dis what's the word?Not giving yourself enough credit. They are not good at considering That an outside person might [00:11:00] genuinely have different ideas and motivations in them. They say, what would have driven me to that position? And then they use that to model the individual. And so, if you areSimone Collins: Someone, goMalcolm Collins: on, yeah. Yeah, but if you are a deeply depressed person and you also have this narcissistic personality,Simone Collins: then of course everyone wants to die or not exist, wishes they were never born, but heMalcolm Collins: tells you, I don't actually want to die.I really love my life. You are in, you're like, no, yeah, because of this psychological problem that they have. Um, So, so this is why narcissism is so elevated within the community, is it's, you've got this depressed population, and depression is really high within the urban monoculture because, for reasons we've talked about in other videos, you can look up, like, the Cult of Psychologists episode we've done if you want more on that but The, you know, people who are far progressives are much more likely to be depressed because they've stripped [00:12:00] out a lot of their traditional sort of emotional infrastructure and then they become susceptible to a lot of these memetic sets which prey on sort of their depression.Like the modern day psychologist movement, which psychologists used to be great. Not anymore. You can go to our video. Is psychology a cult? I don't know. Were they? BecauseSimone Collins: like, I just feel like it went from Freud to like where we are now.Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no. There was an intermediate stage. I know the age of cognitive behavior.They warned us against all of the stuff psychologists are doing today. They're like, there was a period in the 70s where people accidentally created dependency with their patients. Yeah. Don't do that. But it appearsSimone Collins: Well, and then in the 60s and 50s, it was still all psychoanalysis. Maybe it was Jungian, but still, like, that's not No,Malcolm Collins: no, there was a period from like, uh, 80s, 90s, early aughts, I think, when it was When it was all CBT.Yeah, CBT, CBT is fantastic.Simone Collins: It's like the one, the one bright spot. Okay, I don't think that counts.Malcolm Collins: No, hold on, but we gotta go back to where we were talking about here. We've got other videos on this other stuff. And people can [00:13:00] watch that if that's what they're interested in. Um, so, you're out there and you are depressed.And you have this narcissistic personality trait, you are unable to believe that other people like their lives. And you are unable to genuinely accept their perception and their arguments about why life is worth living. Because you personally, and this is common when a person has clinical depression, you personally are unable to see the genuine positives of being alive.But. Then the question would be like, yeah, but it's not just narcissism that this has a heavy overlap with, it's also psychopathy and Machiavellianism. And it's like, well, yes, because there's individuals who hear this and they're like, okay, everyone else is just faking being happy, the world sucks, right?But then it takes a special type of psychopathy to then think, so we should kill everyone. I should make it my life goal and I will be a [00:14:00] hero if I champion the death of all humans. And when I say Well,Simone Collins: now, now, only a small minority does. We have to be clear that like most antinatalists just don't want any more humans to exist.So they want to basically end humanity, but not necessarily kill all living humans.Malcolm Collins: I, again, I think this is you believing what people are saying to you with a kind face and not, if you look at what they say behind the scenes, and I will post a clip here of the leading female antinatalist, like, in the world, what does she say?She says, if I could press a button, and it would kill all humans today, even if it meant they had to die by being skinned alive, I would still press that button.Yeah, so, look, in the interest of the end, if you could end suffering tomorrow, yeah, probably anything is justifiable. Inflicting just about anything is probably justifiable, imposing just about anything is probably justifiable, if you can end it. If you, if there's literally, [00:15:00] you can guarantee no more ouch ever again, then there probably isn't.a big enough out you could make that wouldn't be justified in the interest of that end, probably by any means necessary. Like if I found out tomorrow that the only way that you could, that sentient extinction could possibly happen was skinning all the living things alive slowly. I'd hate it, um, but I would probably, I would say that it's what we have to do.I'm totally I'm totally on board with the idea that the only thing that really matters is the suffering coming to a finality. So, yeah, anything in the interest of that, if you can guarantee that, even despite whatever imposition or nastiness might be necessary.Malcolm Collins: Yes. [00:16:00] You, you, they, when they're talking to you, they're in nice mode, Simone. People aren't naturally confrontational with other people. And I think that you, because you have such thisSimone Collins: Well then why? Why, when people are kidnapping other people, don't they just go like Little miss, why don't you just step into this car, please?Malcolm Collins: I mean, I don't know. I think kidnappers are actually nicer to their victims than you would think, especially after they've been with the kidnapper for a while. This is how you get things like the John Burnett Ramsey, I want to say what's her name? Is thatSimone Collins: John Burnett Ramsey? I'm sorry.Malcolm Collins: No, it's the chain.Childhood. IsSimone Collins: it Katie Hurst? StockholmMalcolm Collins: Syndrome. No! Stockholm! Oh my God, this bothers me so much. Oh,Simone Collins: you're thinking about Hurst. Yes. Yes. You're thinking about Hurst. Yeah. HurstMalcolm Collins: is a real example of what is called Stockholm Syndrome. I know. Yeah.Simone Collins: However,Malcolm Collins: Stockholm Syndrome the event in Stockholm that people attribute to Stockholm Syndrome is not a real example of Stockholm Syndrome.[00:17:00]Really? No. Yes, the cops really were trying to get the, the people killed. Like, if you, if you watch it as an outsider the, the cops really did not care about the lives of the people who were in the hostage situation. They did almost get them killed. And the people in the hostage situation had every right to be identifying with their Hostage takers over the police.That's interesting. Hurst is a very different situation. She actually did just decide to join this, this psychopathic kidnapper. Maybe he was hot. I don't remember how we Well,Simone Collins: Actually, I'm gonna look him up. Hurst.Malcolm Collins: Kidnapper? Oh my god. Because, well, I mean, with this women, Cause I don't know,Simone Collins: like, I don't know if, if Stockholm Syndrome can't be a thing.If it was a really hot kidnapper. Right.Why are there not images coming up of him right away? It's just her. I want to see him. This is soMalcolm Collins: lame. I wonder how many women would be like, would also have this thought like, well, if he [00:18:00] was hot enough.Simone Collins: But seriously, like then it doesn't count. It was just like a hot, powerful guy. Of course, she's going to go for him anyway.I can't find pictures. SoMalcolm Collins: anyway, so, you are fantastic, man. I love it. But I, I find this really. Interesting, and I think it tells us a lot about the antinatalist movement, because, you know, I have that one video where I go through and I'm reading, like, antinatalist subreddits, and they're talking about how we need to kill everyone, and how we and you here, of course, as an outsider, are like, oh, they can't possibly mean that, right?Because a psychologically sound person wouldn't think like that. And so here you are thinking that, right? These are psychologically. And keep in mind, like, psychopaths are very good at being affable with other people. This is how serial killers work, right? Like, you're here being like, Oh, but the, the clown man was so nice, you know, he, he performed in our kids.He can't possibly [00:19:00] be the serial killer. And whereas what you're antinatalist community is what could essentially be thought of as a, Okay. Community of serial killers, basically. That has gotten together and is sharing ideas with each other. And I think that when you take into account, and this is why, like if you look at our video Logically Arguing Against Antinatalism, and our points, I think, are just rock solid.I think if it was really logic that was driving them to this perception, that that video would have persuaded far more of them to deconvert from antinatalism than it did. I do not think it is logic. I think it is justification justification of something they want to believe. And so they go at it and they're like, how can I make this belief system justifiable for myself?But I do not think that antinatalism is a belief system that is ever reached by logic. Because the logical arguments just aren't very good. Like the, asymmetry argument is garbage. And again, you can watch our video on this. Well, and antinatalists also seem to [00:20:00] have trouble engaging with logical arguments.So here's an example.Simone Collins: I feel like all they ever do is engage in, at least performatively, logical arguments. Yeah, but that'sMalcolm Collins: the thing. Formatively logical arguments that are very bad. So you had an anti natalist reach out to you and you got so annoyed by it because it was just such a bad argument. He goes like, well, what's the difference between giving births to someone and going up behind them and injecting them with drugs.Right. And you're like, well, consent. And he's like, what? But the person didn't consent to be born. And it's like, yeah, but they can end their lives whenever they want. And then he's basically like, yeah, but I don't want to deal with that. That's basically the response to you can end your life whenever you want within the antinatalist community is, wait, you're saying I have to take personal responsibility for my actions as they relate to myself?And it's like, yes, yes, you do. What are you waiting for, huh? [00:21:00] What are you waiting for? What are you waiting for? What am I waiting for? What am I waiting for? What are you waiting for? F**k you!Oh my god!Malcolm Collins: Like the level of narcissistic sociopathy that would deny life to another person. Who would want to live just because you personally would prefer to kill yourself, but don't want to take the responsibility of killing yourself. To me, it's just this insane level of sociopathy.Um, which, which is very surprising to me that like, and then, well, Not surprising to me. These studies helped me understand why we have such trouble getting through to the antinatalist community with logical arguments. Because it was never based on logic to begin with. It was always a psychiatric condition.But a dangerous and common [00:22:00] psychiatric condition within the urban monoculture. Yeah, but at theSimone Collins: same time, like, this is, this both sounds very dire, but also in the end could be very hopeful, assuming that these people don't change their stance and have a ton of kids, because then this is just a selective pressure against.Yeah, dark triad traits that are, that are not pro social, that are not on the whole good for society. So, I mean, yay, isn't it fortunate that a lot of people with dark triad traits are also going to be. SelfMalcolm Collins: sterilizing. Yeah! I mean Well, actually, so this gets more interesting than the point that you're making, and I want to elaborate on the concept.Um, so, I also think that child support has done a lot to promote the reduction of dark triad traits.Simone Collins: So Oh, because you can't just, like, get a woman pregnant and, like, walk away and not have to worry about it.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so historically if you look at women there is some attraction to dark triad personality traits as you were talking about with the kidnapper thing, right?Like, powerful men with dark [00:23:00] triad personality traits in a historical context were more attractive to women who wanted random flings. And the red pillSimone Collins: will never let you forgetMalcolm Collins: it. Right. No, it's not useful, like, It's not a useful genetic strategy for a male, particularly these days. And somebody's like, well, what do you mean by that?It's because the women who will allow you to sleep with them if they're like, not interested in marrying you, are typically the low caliber women of both intellectually, attractiveness, and other genetic qualities wise. And, and then the high caliber women, they have a reason to be much more selective about this.So even when they are getting pregnant, they're typically selecting the sperm donor based on traits like pro sociality. But if you're talking about, and this is, by the way when women select sperm donors, pro sociality is one of the core traits they look for in research. This is like a well studied thing.But if you are one of these men who just like sleeps around. And you have this Machiavellianism, and narcissism, and, and, and sociopathy, other, other drug triad traits [00:24:00] you, because you just genuinely don't care about other people, or the world, or your potential kids you are not interested in getting other people pregnant.Because now there is huge negative consequences to you due to child support, at least insofar as you are to any extent successful. Now, if you are a very low genetic quality male, there's not as much risk to you. So I think that these men are still sleeping around and within these communities, dark triad personality traits will persist.But what we're seeing now is among the many partner strategy that used to keep these traits stable was in populations. There is much less reason for these individuals to breed. And even within these people who might have now turned to more monogamous relationships and stuff like that, which are now joining the anti natalist movement.They're also being selected out of the population, which to me leads me to believe that future human populations are going to be. dramatically more pro social and and more empathetic than human populations in the world today. Interesting.Simone Collins: Very interesting. ButMalcolm Collins: [00:25:00] also, if people know our other research on, on, on genetic selection, they're also going to be much more tribalistic and much more xenophobic.So basically you're going to have affable religious people who are very nice to anyone who they see as a cultural ally or within their community, and that who wants to kill everyone else in the world. Um,Simone Collins: well, I mean.Malcolm Collins: Bad. Well, I mean, so do you have any thoughts on these studies? Cause I, I mean, I was really surprised. This is not, you know, I genuinely didn't expect. It's surprisingSimone Collins: because most people.refer to pronatalists as narcissists. Like, Oh, you're just trying to spam the world with your children. Right. That's the constant accusation that we see for anyone who has a lot of kids. Oh, you're just so obsessed with yourself that you just, youMalcolm Collins: know,PROJECTION!Simone Collins:So yeah, it, it is a little surprising also because a really common way in which people hear about [00:26:00] narcissistic individuals is in the context of like narcissistic parents who are really damaging to the lives of their children. So you just, I don't know, like, I think it's, it's much more common in someone's evoked set to think about narcissists and like of self obsessed people as being more likely to be a parent, which is.Surprising, butMalcolm Collins: well, that's something I would encourage if people doubt this or are interested in learning about the antinatalist community. Genuinely, just look up their YouTube channels watch them talk for a bit. And I'd suggest if you have a good ability at reading people watch their eyes and watch their micro expressions in face.So I am microSimone Collins: expressions were largely debunked.Malcolm Collins: So. It kind of, I, I, People who are very good at reading other people typically rely on these sorts of expressions, but I don't know if they can be scientifically studied very easily.But as our audience may know, if they don't, is you are clinically autistic. You are very, [00:27:00] very, very bad at reading people. You just are like, are they nice to me or are they mean to me? And what are they saying? If they're nice to me and saying something, then they must be being honest. Whereas I am very, very good at reading people to like an insane amount.I, too much, too much. It's painful to you. It's painful to me how good I am at reading people. Yeah. Well, because I have a really high amount of empathy and it does. Oh my God.Simone Collins: You're like Edward Cullen in twilight where you just keep hearing everyone's. Thoughts and you're like, no, and I am like, what's her face?That Bapid girl who you can't read my thoughts because I don't have any. And you're like, Oh, this is so refreshing.Malcolm Collins: I will actually say that it has been a major part of our relationship is that I am very, very, very good at reading people. And because of that, I can genuinely or not genuinely but generally tell when somebody is, manipulating me or attempting to manipulate me. And I think that that's actually pretty common for females in, in [00:28:00] relationships.Simone Collins: Well, and I think also it's very mentally taxing for you to keep modeling people when they behaveMalcolm Collins: like that. Yeah, yeah. So I have to, you know, when they're in a fight or they're being pissy, I have to constantly model them and I find it very mentally taxing.I never have to model you. You are just a complete blank. You are who you are in public. In private, there is never a hidden agenda. Um, uh, and when there is a hidden agenda, it's like for five seconds, and then you crack up laughing and just tell me whatever it is. Like you, you are incapable of doing that.Did I ever doSimone Collins: something with hidden?Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, I think it's funny. Sometimes my family is like, well, can't you, she must be hiding something like people don't act like that. And I'm like, no, genuinely, like, if you understand her, you'd understand it is, it is an anathema to her character. There is nothing underneath.But if you go out and you watch these anti natalist channels as somebody who's good at reading people, or if you are good at reading people. It's, it's actually kind of obvious in hindsight that they feel this way. You, there is no anti natalist channel where people are [00:29:00] like on our channel laughing a lot, affable to each other, right?Like that seem to genuinely get pleasure out of life. Everything is very calculated and cold and dehumanizing of anyone who is not themselves. Anyway, Simone, I love you and fun episode. And again, I'm always grateful to our enemies to allow me to know I have made the right choices in life to align myself with people who are nice to me and, and generally don't try to tear me down.Because the pronatalist community is overwhelmingly nice except for one guy. But he doesn't go to the conferences and nobody really talks to him and everyone hates him.Simone Collins: Not everyone hates him. They just all recognize that he's a curmudgeon. That's all. That's a great sound.Malcolm Collins: I adore you. I adoreSimone Collins: you, Malcolm.And I love that you find these things. And talking with you is just way too much fun. It's like a complete highlight of my life. So, [00:30:00] thankMalcolm Collins: you for You're a highlight of my life. And I am so excited for dinner with you tonight. OhSimone Collins: gosh, I'm thinking about it already. Ugh. But, let's talk more. I love you though. Get full access to Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm at basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe