Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

In this episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the disturbing world of the 764 Group—a cult that originated on Minecraft and Roblox, targeting vulnerable youth through online platforms. They discuss the shocking tactics used by the group, the psychological and societal factors that make children susceptible, and the broader implications for parents and communities. The conversation also explores the intersection of online radicalization, sexuality, and the importance of open dialogue with kids. Episode Transcript:Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be talking about a Satanic cult that was started on Minecraft by a 15-year-old onSimone Collins: Minecraft.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, yeah, it grew early on Minecraft and Roblox.And people can hear about this and they can be like, how bad can it be? Specifically, we’re gonna be going over these 7 6 4 group, which is linked to other groups in the Calm network, like the No Lives Matter movement, the Manic Murder Cult, the Sadistic Manic Cult, the Satanic Front oh goodie and the Mordoff Division.But anyway. So you might be hearing this and being like, how bad, how bad can this really be? It’s a bunch of children. So I’ll read from an article in Wired and then we’ll get to the article itself, but this is just sort of. Preview of the type of shenanigans they get up to. Okay. Cardin head and other members of this [00:01:00] group would lure young women into video chats and extort them into cutting themselves performing live what’s the word here?I, I should use actual acts or harming themselves. Eve a girl from the Midwest. When she was younger her, her mother recounted her daughter being drawn into the exploitation network through Gore servers on Discord. Where I’m gonna, just going forwards in this, whenever I’m talking about people who are, below certain age ranges, we’re just gonna use the word chicken instead. Okay. Okay, that sounds good. The word chicken instead. Okay. I think I can handle that. Okay. Where chickens would watch ultra violent content what 7, 6 4 would do is they would go in and drop videos in these groups and try to start pulling kids out of it and into that server.Before I go further this is actually really interesting before we get into what happened to this girl is, is how they did it. So they take gore and other extreme content. Okay. And they do bit into [00:02:00] things like Minecraft or Roblox or Children’s discord servers.Simone Collins: Oh. So like Elsa Gate, but on steroids and way worse.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, because it’s very intentional. Well, it’s different than that because with Elsa Gate it’s like, oh, this stuff is doing well with kids or anything like that. This is more like if you’re at that edgy phase of like being young, you know, like let’s say you’re like 10 or 11 or something like that.Yeah. And you’re like, oh, I’m not allowed to talk about this sort of stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, somebody dumps it and you’re like, oh, this is where the edgy cool kids are. Let’s go to their town. Like, let’s go to their server.Mm-hmm.So the moderator of 7 6 4 server who went by Brad, one of the aliases connected to Caden head, quote unquote groomed her daughter through false shows of affection and convincing them to send unclosed photographs.Once they established a degree of trust, Caden and the Exhorters threatened to harm her elementary school aged brother. Or release the explicit photographs on video calls. They would urge her to unli herself and convince her to carve [00:03:00] usernames of members of the server into her skin.Oh my gosh.They talk later in the piece that I think like half a decade or a decade later, she still has some of these scars. Oh oh, this is screwed up. They pressured her to strangle her cat and even behead her hamster on camera. Wait, and sheSimone Collins: did it.Malcolm Collins: Yes, but biting its head off. They said, bite the head off or I’ll f up your whole life.Oh a username. Felix told Eve on video. Oh. During the police investigation, Felix was an alias associated with the IP address linked to Caden head. Eve did all of this from her bedroom closet. Things took a turn for the worse when she cut herself too deeply one night in the bathtub and turned the waters red, like one of her exhorters had requested.They also swatted the family’s house and began calling her school and telling the principal she tried to murder animals, prompting school officials to file a report to the police. You just don’t realize how quickly it can happen. Eve’s mother [00:04:00] said, according to her mother, FBI did not reach out to Eve until December, 2023.The Stevensville Police Department was not aware of Eve’s victimization by Camden Head, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Until two years after his arrest Eve’s mother said, FBI Agents contacted her the following months and asked for details, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sorry, I, I, I skip ahead a lot when I’m reading pieces for stuff you guys don’t care about.An interview with Canon had gave the probation SER services, confirmed the general details of E story. Bradley did admit to the group’s use of the servers to do that sort of extortion on individuals. That thread said they would do this for money and sometimes just for power over individuals. Oh mygosh.And Caden had himself admitted, urging users of the server to carve his initials into their bodies as a form of ho homage, and described his servers as a cult and himself as a venerated leader. Last spring, this guy Caden had, who we’ll get to later, 18 years old, 15 when he started the group, was sentenced to jail for 80 [00:05:00] years.Simone Collins: Well, okay. At least there was that was Well,Malcolm Collins: no, no, no, no, no. There’s, there’s unfortunately many other individuals in, in, in this group, they we’re gonna be going over a series of the arrests, but you typically don’t know of what they’ve done until after they’ve been arrested.Simone Collins: I can’t believe So we’re actually talking about this because I heard Catherine d mention it on a blocked and reported episode this morning.Like I’d never heard of it before and I can’t believe I’ve never heard of it. ‘cause this is so. Grizzly and horrible, and it’s something to which so many of our kids are vulnerable. One thing that’s getting a lot of coverage recently is porta potty pot parties in Dubai. Have you heard of them?Malcolm Collins: No. Tell me.Oh, yeah. Well, they take women or whatever to, to explain.Simone Collins: Well, no, basically, so yeah, like really, really wealthy men in Dubai offer to pay like Instagram models and influencers who are really, you know, like. Attractive women between, you know, tens of thousands to even over a hundred thousand dollars to come out to these really debauched parties where they make them like eat poop and urinate [00:06:00] in their mouths and things like that.Right? Yeah. But like these are adult women who are making really bad judgements and you know, they’re signing NDAs and they’re making a lot of money from it. And now there are cases of women unliving themselves after this. Or even potentially being, having their lives non consensually ended if they like, refuse to comply during the parties. Like, I’m not saying these don’t go wrong, but this is like women getting themselves into it. Right? It then, but then, then they’re getting a lot of coverage. The fact that this is happening. To young children whose parents think that they’re just having fun on Roblox.No,Malcolm Collins: but I, I think that that actually undersells the scope of this. Yeah. If you look at this, there are as many, if not more people in the young perpetrator category. Yeah. I’m talking. You know, around the age of like, let’s say 15 to like 17. Right. Then there are in the victim category. So when you think about your kids and how they get sucked into this mm-hmm.You [00:07:00] shouldn’t just be thinking about your kids as potential victims. Right. But as potential perpetrators.Simone Collins: Yeah. And like, again, like there are only so many rich men in Dubai. I mean, there’s a lot Right. That are, that have like, you know, really, really, yeah. Fetishes that they wanna act on and are willing to do it.Like, but like there, there’s an endless number of screwed up. Adolescents and the fact that, well,Malcolm Collins: I think all adolescents are intrinsically screwed up.Simone Collins: Yeah. But now there’s this, this pipeline to like incredibly evil acts.Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah. But I think the pipeline is actually in a way created by the parents.And we’ll get to that. A another thing I note here, if you’re like, how is this stuff done at scale in the way it’s, it’s happening. Okay. It is, so later on the, the piece goes, the abuse was systemic and even codified in writing. A user was the alias, convict, circulated. A how-to guide for grooming potential victims that identifies chickens with mental disorders and illnesses as the most susceptible to manipulation.Oh, of course, thedetailed instructions document how to Fein affection and draw victims into influence. Oh, and then turn attention into [00:08:00] negative enforcement in so self-doubt. In order to bring the person to the edge of a quote unquote borderline episode, the Guide reads quote, when they hit an episode, continue to break them down until they seem defeated in quote.Simone Collins: That is so sick. Oh yeah. God, how are we on? And, well, I’m glad we’re learning about this as parents.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So I, I, we will go into this as, as we get into specific examples and stuff like that. I mean, people can imagine all the examples end up being somewhat samey, if I’m gonna say, if salacious. But I think it’s more interesting now we’re at the beginning and we’re talking the hook to talk about the theory around all of this and what’s happening in our society.Okay.A lot of the pieces on this will be like, this chicken started to engage with online erotic material at like X young age. Yeah. And that material involved Gore. That is how they were brought into these communities. The problem is, is, you know, [00:09:00] when we did our you know, sexual survey for our arousal pattern stuff.Mm-hmm. One generally if kids are on the internet, they are engaging with erotic material if they are at all counterculture, right? Like that.Simone Collins: Oh, not even that. I mean, I, I listened to a whole podcast on just those. Those weird mobile ads for games that ultimately are like 100% about fetishes, like foot fetishes and vore and all these things.Mm-hmm. Like you’ll, you’ll even see it if literally you’re just exposed to mobile game ads. But go on.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, no, I point out with something like Voor or something. In the book, one of the statistics I always loved is the percent of the American population that is aroused by vore, that is people eating other people is larger than the population that lives in the state of Massachusetts, which is like the fifth most populous state or something.Yeah, to give you some scale, so we’re not talking about, and if you’re talking about. Any of these more you know, sort of, gore related, sadism related. Masochism related. [00:10:00] Like any of the ones, like we’re not supposed to talk about arousal categories. If you put those all together, you’re probably looking at like 25% of the population.Simone Collins: Yeah. And just to be clear, and this is something that Malcolm emphasizes. Again and again in the Pragma Dis Guide to Sexuality. Just because something turns you on doesn’t mean you morally endorse. It doesn’t mean you practice it, et cetera. Like a lot of these people clearly are going way too far with these, but just because you’re turned on by this doesn’t mean you sh should, can, or even are morally okay with doing this.Any of that. Okay. But,Malcolm Collins: but consider what’s happening in these kids’ minds. Mm-hmm. From the perspective of the way the parents have normalized different forms of sexuality and arousal content. Okay. So, yeah. They hit, you know, 15, 16, whatever they start being aroused by things if they all don’t have another explanation forsure.And they see stuff, whether it is masochistic related content for many of these young girls, I, I would not be surprised given how common young girl masochists were when I was you know, [00:11:00] like in high school and stuff like that.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Cutting wasSimone Collins: so common in my middle school and high school.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Not, not, not even just normal cutting, but I’m talking like more direct mass because at one of the pieces they’re like like he like cut the girl and like drank her blood or something like that. And I’m like, bro, I know so many people who were into like vampire stuff. Oh, well, yeah. I mean, yeah.At those ages, that’s obvious enough. Yeah. But here’s the problem. It’s the media. And it’s the parents who teach the kids that when what they, the kids don’t realize are fairly common arousal patterns, right? Mm-hmm. When these start to emerge in them they are the only, the only evoke set they have is If I am getting X impulses, I must be an evil satanist, right?Oh, oh, yeah. Because no oneSimone Collins: has told them that a lot of people feel this way and it. Doesn’t correlate with what you morally condone or Yeah, it doesn’t mean it’s just not in order to act on it. Yeah,Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah, yeah. You can, you can feel something. That doesn’t mean you have to act [00:12:00] on it. That doesn’t mean to Yes, but that’s not the way this is contextualized for them.You’re totally right. Only evil people. Like engaging with this sort of stuff.Yeah.And because the kids are taught that at this very young age, when they’re trying to figure out who am I? Right? They don’t know who they are yet. Yeah. They say, well, if only evil people find this stuff alluring, then I am evil.And then what they do is they begin to Evil Max they begin to take. All of these other things, they associate with vague evilness. So what you’ll notice about these groups is they don’t often have like a coherent ideology. They’re not attempting to achieve any specific end in the world. They’re described as nihilistic, but nihilism is the wrong way to put it because they’re quite agentic for nihilists.You are right?Yeah.They’re not really nihilistic. They have an [00:13:00] agenda. Right. But what the agenda is, is a collection of all of the ideas and motivations and ideologies that society has told them. Whether it’s Nazi ideology or satanic worship, like Nazism and Satanic worship are. Actually pretty antithetical ideologies.Yes. If you actually look right well, no, no, you see this with the type of like iil who’s like a white nationalist and like a Catholic integralist which is like weirdly common among like the Nick Fuentes crowd because, you know, he’s a Catholic integralist and some people think he’s like white nationalist.So he and, and these two things are literally directly antithetical. The, the. Kku Klux Klan was specifically interested in wiping out blacks, Catholics, and Jews. Like Catholics were just as bad as blacks to the Klan. Yeah, true. And yet they will identify as that and this other thing because in [00:14:00] their.Progressive minds. I actually think that this is how people adopt these antithetical ideologies. They grow up in progressive urban monocultural households and they go, what are the most evil groups I could associate with? Oh, let’s go Nazi. KKK, and you know, some extremist religious Christian group.This very traditionalist, like Catholic nationalism.Mm-hmm.And it, it, it forms a completely incoherent ideology. Or you look at these kids who grew up very sort of in more normy families and stuff like that. And it’s okay. What’s the most evil things that could happen? I’m an evil person now.No, I know that because my entire life I’ve been told that people that wanna engage with X or Y are evil.Simone Collins: Yeah. Or that feel good when exposed to. Well, some form of good aroused when they exposed to X or Y.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And when sometimes it’s not even arousal, sometimes it’s just like, this is interesting to me.Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like I was told that this would repel me, and yet I find it curious and interesting and I want to know more.Simone Collins: Yeah. And they, [00:15:00] they, they assume that’s conflated with them, endorsing it somehow. And it’s not, it’s not,Malcolm Collins: no. But then they get into communities, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Communities that collect content like this and they share content like this and they want to be involved in those communities, status hierarchies.Because that’s just sort of naturally what happens to kids. They say, okay. You know, I’m an X or Y group. Now this is a group of people who are like me because my parents are not like me. They have signaled people who like X, Y, Z, they’re, they’re evil. Right?Simone Collins: Right.Malcolm Collins: And so I am going to. Try to, because, because our brains, our animal brain is like, okay, who’s your tribe?They’re like, this is my tribe. What does my tribe do? It tries to get chickens to bite their pet’s head off in, in closets while filming it. Right now I need to do more than that. Like that’s how status is earned within these communities, which, which made the articles go into and I need to do more than that and I need to do more than that, and I need to do more than that.And people can be like, well, I monitor my kids’ online activity. And it’s like, [00:16:00] you. Cannot fully monitor your kid’s online activity once a kid is 15. If they are a smart kid.Yeah. When they’rean agentic kid, which you should hope your kids are.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: They will understand technology at a level that you don’t.Mm-hmm. You cannot monitor a 15 year old’s activity on the internet any more than your parents could have monitored you at 15 on the internet.Simone Collins: You see that’s a great way of putting it. Yeah, yeah,Malcolm Collins: yeah. You simply know more about how computers work than they do. Mm-hmm. And they will simply know more about how AI and whatever the computers, if tomorrow work and you’re like, well, I monitor they’re a PC and I monitor their phone and I monitor their, their tablet. And I’m like, well, I mean, you do know that you can buy a cheap burner phone for like. 40 bucks, right on like eBay or something that’s a few years old and that can access any discord server, any online forum. They don’t need top of the line hardware for this.And then you’re like, oh shoot, I hadn’t thought of that. Where would [00:17:00] my kid hide a burner phone? You don’t know where. They’d hide a burner phone. It could be at school. The only way around seeing your kids radicalized is. And people can be like, well, look, in my generation, this is one of the things, and this is why, you know, many people on our, on our show or in our comments know that we are like, look, I’m not saying pornography is like the best thing ever, but I am saying, or even.Fetishize pornography or, or online, things like that. But I am saying that building too much of a negative stigma around them within the current online social context gives attackers a very easy pathway to your kids. And, and keep in mind it’s not just this type of content. I mean, like, what about furry content?Like, if, if you tell them that these people are weird degenerates and then they watch something like that, you know, now if you’re adding like, furry stuff, furry stuff in here, you’re not getting like. Yeah, like e every, everything that could potentially be derided by somebody that turns somebody on, you’re getting to like 50% of the population now.You know? You now they’re like, oh, well I’m a [00:18:00] furry and furries are evil, so I’m gonna do a bunch of evil stuff. And so the question is, is how do you, how do you. Go over this stuff with your kids. Well, one, we offered the Pragma to guide to sexuality for like 99 cents. I think it is a fairly good book that does not glorify arousal or sexuality, but also doesn’t put too much negative stigma.I will say it has a slight negative stigma throughout the book on it, which is like, humans are gross, humans do gross things. But like you’re still a human. It’s, I think, a pretty good book for parents to go over with their kids in the same way that like, my parents would go over I dunno if your parents did with you, like the, the puberty books that are supposed to teach you about, like,Simone Collins: oh no, we didn’t do that.Malcolm Collins: What’s gonna happen at puberty? No. That’s what I’d probably go over with my kids because I think it explains so many aspects of arousal and gender identity in a way that is better than the lgbtq plus community does. From the perspective of. Like some of the things we point out [00:19:00] is that grouping humans into gay or straight as categories basically makes no sense when you consider that.The number of people who are aroused predominantly by swapped genitals. So by this what I mean is they will find sorry, primary and secondary sex characteristics, primary sex characteristics of sexual characteristics used in the mating process. Secondary sex characteristics are stuff like.Breasts or hand size or like broadSimone Collins: shoulders?Malcolm Collins: Broad shoulders. Right. The, the broadly fear beard form, right? Yeah. So, the percentage of people who are aroused by one set of primary sex characteristics and the other set of secondary sex characteristics is larger than the population that is aroused by, or I think it’s like around the size of the population.I can’t remember. It is, it’s big to the point where. If you’re talking about the community that arise by matching yet opposite sex characteristics you’re like, oh, this isn’t like a, particularly in terms of unusual arousal patterns [00:20:00] particularly pronounced enough to define it as a totally new type of humanity or something.And this helps when you’re going through all this with kids because then they’re like, oh, when somebody comes up and tries to feed them this stuff, they’re like it reminds me of when I was a kid. And one of the things my mom did was me. That really helped me not get into drug culture as a kid is when I was younger, she would smoke marijuana with me.And so, it was a, it was a momSimone Collins: thing and therefore a not rebellious thing.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I thought it was like an old lady thing. Like people would come and they’d be like, and it made it much easier for me to turn them down. Was. Feeling like I’m being excluded. Yeah.Where they would come and they’d be like, Hey, do you want marijuana?And I was like, I can always get marijuana from my mom. Like, yeah. Why, why do I want it from you? Your marijuana could be laced with something. Yeah. And this immediately one sort of frames to them, I’m actually way cooler than you. And in a way, cooler environment and household and everything like that.That’s true. Two. I’m doing it in a subversive way. Like, well, you don’t know what [00:21:00] that’s been cut with. Like how, how reliable is your dealer? How did you source him? Yeah. You know, now all of a sudden you’re coming at this from a totally different Oh, that’s mom stuff. Yeah. And I wanna do that for sexuality with our kids.Actually, the intro to the pregnant, this guy to sexuality is, we pray that this book ruins or something like that. We’re sorry for this one. It was like that it’sSimone Collins: dedicated to our children for whom we’ve just ruined sexuality.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But yeah. Anyway. I’m gonna keep going here, but anything you wanna say before I go further?Simone Collins: No, I, I very much agree with what you say and do think that in that sense, we’re setting up our kids pretty well to be prepared for this though. I like all this sort of like, chat room medicalization stuff. I think Mm, I need to put more thought into that.Malcolm Collins: Hmm. Oh, there’s just so little you can do. So little you can do.You really need to give them a good friend network. Work really hard to make sure they have good friends. Mm. Online friends because that’s where their best friends are likely to be, which is why we focus on networking, why we create. You know, the Discord server we have and everything like that, because [00:22:00] I want environments where I would feel safe.Like I know on the Basecamp Discord server, nobody’s getting groomed. Nobody’s getting radicalized. Like it’s just too diverse in the, in the number of perspectives that are, that are within it. And so it’s a great environment for my kids as they get older.Mm-hmm. Right.And, and. I think that what I would, you know, put upon people within the Discord server especially, is when young people are in the server you know, be very supportive and make them feel important.Because that’s what people, young people especially want from online communities.Simone Collins: Yeah. Because there is sort of the opposite type of online communities. It’s like, I think Okay. Within limits. The effective altruism slash rationalist community for teens has been really good. Like they’ve jumpstarted their careers, raised money.Sometimes it doesn’t go so well, but like there are some instances of of teens entering tight-knit communities that start online, that lead them to accelerate their maturation and education and empowerment. So it’s not like it’s all bad. And I just [00:23:00] has to be careful, I guess. IMalcolm Collins: mean, I don’t think EA communities are safe anymore.Simone Collins: Yeah. But they used to be, I mean like we met so many young people who were like incredibly mature, incredibly entrepreneurial VI,Malcolm Collins: literally came out of the EA community. I know. ISimone Collins: know. It’s just, we’ve also met many young people who have been really nicely shaped by it and the connections I made within it.So it’s ThatMalcolm Collins: was in the last generation.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: I don’t think it’s, yeah, I guess notSimone Collins: anymore, but I’m just saying that there have been historical examples of, of online communities. I mean, I think theMalcolm Collins: base base camp is the new safe EA community.Simone Collins: Hopefully,Malcolm Collins: like that’s, that’s what we’ve been becoming. That’s what the prenatal movements have been becoming.Because if you go to the normal one, it’s all like AI doism. I have no reason to live anymore. Know that’s very toxic book tour. But anyway, the FBI and other foreign law enforcement agencies are investigating 764 for both.Simone Collins: Are you trying to find a YouTube safe way to put this?Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Chicken meel. [00:24:00] Assault,Offenses and terrorism because of connections to the Order of Nine Angels, a Satanist cult from Great Britain that has been ever present in the online edge, Lord and militant neo-Nazi circles for over a past decade.Oh, no watch’s. Nazi memes and acceleration, accelerationist propaganda glorifying homicidal members of white supremacist groups like ANR division frequently appear in the extortion group’s. Telegram shots well. Many users of fear unfamiliar with zero nine a dogma, the sex symbols, text and aesthetic have been widely co-opted within the group for shock value.The practice of urging victims to injure themselves with cut signs also bears a striking resemblance to oh nine A rituals. Now I’m gonna get into oh nine A, but I think you see the media is misunderstanding what’s going on here. They say they’re getting into this for quote unquote shock value, and I don’t think that’s it.I think they found one thing interesting and now they assume all things that they’ve [00:25:00] coded negative in their mind must be co coded, is interesting. Mm-hmm. So to continue with a different piece here, ‘cause I’m skipping to a new piece that’s discussing this. Oh nine, A group that they’re affiliated with, a US soldier has been accused of plotting an attack on his own unit by sending information to an obscure Nazi satanist organization called The Order of Nine Angels.But who are they? I founded in the UK in the 1970s. The ONA is an increasing focus for law enforcement and appears as an influence in several recent UK terrorism prosecutions relating to extreme right wing stuff. And, and again here of course, just whenever they don’t, like, whenever they see Nazis.Even though Nazis are far closer to modern socialists than anything, right wing hey, they even hate the Jews. You know, they’reSimone Collins: national socialists.Malcolm Collins: And a lot of people are like, they weren’t socialists in the way that they’re socialists we talk about today. And I’m like, no, they, no. Literally were socialists in every economic way.You could use the word socialist. Come on guys. We have another video where we go into that and I might [00:26:00] put just another one, like just how socialists were the national socialists and it is very socialist.Hmm.And very anti-Semitic. The National Socialists today, and they divided people based on rights and ethnicity and sexual orientation, just like progressives today.They’re like, oh, but we do it with different ethnicities. And it’s like, it doesn’t matter, man. It is the dividing humans based on that stuff. So, anyway, I, I consider these groups to be left wing, whatever your politics are you wanna call it. But anyway, continue. So the group at Lionizes the Nazi era and dates its calendar from the birth of Adolf Hitler.But its supernatural belief system goes beyond anything normally associated with right-wing extremism. So note here, again, I’m saying they’re just trying to evil Max. They, they start their calendar with Adolf Hitler’s birthday, right? In the short term, the goal is to undermine what they characterize as decent Judeo-Christian society.So note here, I love it that they say that they’re an extreme right-wing group and they are an explicitly anti-Christian group with an emphasis on placed real world attacks. The aim being a new [00:27:00] imperial civilization based on a. Cruel mixture of social Darwinism, satanism, and fascism adherence are encouraged to secretly infiltrate government organizations such as the military or Christian churches in order to destabilize them from within.Those who progress through the O a’s hierarchical ranks are required to undertake various tasks, including forming their own small groups to prove their leadership abilities. Was a result that a decentralized network of associated bodies exists throughout various countries. There is a total rejection of Essex and some key texts, even discuss virtual sacrifice, both symbolic and actual such groups reject attempts at gaining popular support on the extreme right because they’re anti-Christian.They’re not right wing at all anyway whether through demonstrations or campaigns and are instead committed to an ideology of so-called accelerationism, which predicts societal collapse and racial warfare, seeking to speed the process up through acts of violence. Well, really what they’re often trying to do is increase speeds and stuff like [00:28:00] immigration and stuff like that.‘cause they think it’ll lead to social warfare, which they can take advantage of. So they support pretty much only left wing causes, but, okay, let’s. The ideology is promoted in several online spaces, and that is where it blended with ideologies by ONA, giving the latter and increased influence and the further edges of the online community.The Durham Teen neo-Nazi became, quote unquote, the Living Dead. Somebody said about him. This last year, a 16-year-old British boy became the youngest person to be convinced of planning a terror attack in the uk, and he was influenced by this.Simone Collins: Goodness gracious.Malcolm Collins: So we can talk about the 15-year-old who started all this.Yeah. Can read his Wikipedia. Okay. He was bullied during his high school years. A classmate called him an easy target in his early teens. He suffered multiple psychological breakdowns and was isolated. He told probation officers that he stopped caring about anything, and after dropping outta school at 15, withdrew to his room.He found the online network and named it after his zip code of his hometown. So that’s, that’s where it is, Steven. [00:29:00] Ah,okay.Kahan had noticeably been disruptive as a student. At the age of 10, he was fascinated by graphic online content depicting murder and torture. He assisted principal alerted authorities about him leading to an investigation into terrorist threats.Despite disciplinary measures, he continued to use school computers to draw images of school. Goul bangings pow POWs like our kid got in trouble for, they say, oh, somebody, he drew a picture of a dead person. But you see, we don’t stigmatize that. Mm-hmm. When our kid does that, we don’t stigmatize it, which means it never becomes alluring to him.It is boring parent stuff.Simone Collins: Well, yeah, we we’re, we’re not like, that’s an evil thing. That means that you must be an evil person.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I actually talked with the school about this. They’re like, well, I mean, look at all these raising rights of violence in schools and stuff like this. Why do you want to normalize this for your kid?And I go, those rates have have occurred. In correlation with the resilience, with the rate that you have [00:30:00] not normalized this behavior in young boys. He can’t talk about guns. He got in trouble for talking about a nuan school. He can’t draw. People who are are, are dead. He can’t draw people with a gun. He can’t draw people with a knife.I was like, when can he draw like Roman soldiers in a battle or something like that? It it like, how old did he have to be? And they’re like, well, I don’t think. Even in high school, you’d be allowed to do that today. And I’m like, well, do you know how often men think about Rome? You know, how many times a day, you know, you, you are suppressing completely normal thoughts in his head, which leads to radicalization.And, and when we talk about like, just how, how far this goes Jason Curo, who is a judge who was going over him, said of him in court, there is something horribly wrong with you horribly. Where it’s like they’re looking at stuff that they haven’t bench lined. They don’t know the percent of young boys who find this type of thing interesting.And they just assume because it’s not normalized in their communities. And keep in [00:31:00] mind how much you chill out as an adult. Okay. And as a young kid, there were many times where I was like, well, who am I? Like, am I evil because of X? Like, am I supposed to lean into that because and I think this is a really, really toxic thing to teach young people.Simone Collins: Agreed. Totally.Malcolm Collins: And you can see here the nihilism that is pervasive in many young kids makes this easier. But nihilism in use has always been a thing. Like people were like, come on. Yeah. Young kids in the nineties weren’t nihilistic. I was like, okay, what a you. You literally went from like the goth who were incredibly nihilistic.The emos who are like a different. Brand of nihilism.Simone Collins: Yeah. ToMalcolm Collins: the vampire kids who were yet a different brand of nihilism.Speaker: Okay. Different how they’re, you know, one is good and, and Emos are horrible. They’re, you know, they’re posers. Emos suck my golf balls. Alright. Alright. Think of it this way. A golf [00:32:00] believes that deep down the world is totally up, but an emo thinks that deep down they are totally. That’s not much of a difference.Speaker 3: That’s a huge difference. Okay. Okay. Look, emos are more prone to suicide this b***h man. But goths are more prone to be depressed that so many people commit suicide go’s. Darkness is nihilistic, whereas Emos is cynical. Wait, I thought we were cynical. Well, well, whatever. It doesn’t matter. No. Say you’re nihilistic.Oh yeah. You.Simone Collins: Yeah. This is just so normal. You’re going through it with adolescents, it’s, it’s gonna happen. And then on top of that, I mean, you also point out like, you know, a lot of this is based on people sort of realizing there are, they’re aroused by stuff.Your arousal levels, especially if I think you’re an adolescent male, are at their peak during these years. They’re out of control. So even people who are adults were like, oh yeah. I mean, I guess I could kind of see no man, like it must be so much stronger for what they’re experiencing as well.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If you go going into other [00:33:00] choice pieces from this this is about another user.Mm-hmm.And 2021, according to court records, Alameda posted a photograph of a bound in gag, half dressed chicken with a caption. Life’s always been. S**T still I see passed through rose colored lenses.Simone Collins: Oh, this is so sick. Oh.Malcolm Collins: And yeah, they were talking about how on the other guy’s phone they found 20 images of his, his online moniker carved into people that they had carved into themselves.And in this other one they’re talking about, this guy was showing that there were at least multiple chicken victims who he had got to engage in, in acts,Simone Collins: gosh, that’s so screwed up.Malcolm Collins: But the problem with when I read all of this is they keep collating normal teenage behavior. With evil behavior, even in the way [00:34:00] that this stuff is covered.And it’s just, you know, oh, you drew people fighting, you know, and you’re a young boy, that must mean you’re a psychopath. It’s like, no, you know, you wanted to have secret fights with other kids, or you wanted to,Simone Collins: yeah. I mean, how, how did this founder ultimately get all this time alone in his room to learn how to radicalize and then torture chickens?It was because he was first bullied and then kicked outta school and then treated like some kind of pariah. You’re absolutely right. I mean, this didn’t have to happen. Yeah. I mean, he, he might’ve been a little weird always. I, I doubt that he wouldn’t be right, but it didn’t have to be like this.Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, you see how easy it’s to radicalize, like you saw the, the people who are radicalized into the Charlie Kirk shooting, and they all come from Mormon communities.Mm-hmm. And then are exposed to alternate sexual identities and immediately their brain goes crazy. Right? Like, if, if, if you do not vaccinate your kids against this and you cannot vaccinate somebody with hate, [00:35:00] hate actually makes it easier for them to flip. Yeah. ‘cause the moment they engage with somebody and they’re like, oh, this person isn’t evil, like my parents said, then they throw out every other warning.You came about that group of people.Simone Collins: Well, and you also can’t vaccinate your kids if you don’t vaccinate your kids. Meaning that if you just shelter them and are like, well, we’ll just keep you away from those people.Malcolm Collins: Yeah.Simone Collins: It’s not gonna protect them. And you’reMalcolm Collins: like, well, you’ll future enough. The thing about the Charlie Kirk shooting with Tyler Robinson is, he didn’t radicalize until he was, what age age was he when all this happened? Like 19 or something? Yeah. ISimone Collins: mean, well into his college career it seems, when he started living on his own.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Which is when I think a lot of parents think that you’re safe.Right,Simone Collins: right. Like you’ve left the nest. I, I’ve done my job. It is all good now.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And so this is just a conversation that I think within the, the, the circles of society that we plan on continuing to survive that like really, really needs to be had. What’s actually fascinating about it is, I [00:36:00] think it’s also how, because you saw this with the Tyler Robinson shooting and everything like that is originally he and his partner had at different times been when they killed Charlie Kirk, they were left wing radicals.Mm-hmm. But they had been interested in Right, right-wing ideas beforehand. Like there’s. Forum posts about them complaining about white discrimination. We know that the trans roommate of the shooter was really into Jordan Peterson. He, he even apparently was into that till the end. You know, and, and I wouldn’t say Jordan Peterson is radicalized, but you know what I mean.Like, they, they’re involved in sort of these edgy forums. And I do think that some, you know, young people get involved in conservative circles. Because they were raised by urban monoculture parents. In the same way that we need to worry about our kids joining a Satanic sex cult. They have to worry about their kids joining, you know, our sorts of circles.But the problem is, is when they join and then they become growers. And this is what I think you need to, like, recognize when you’re, when you’re talking about any of this, is that did you meanSimone Collins: to sayMalcolm Collins: gripes, griper, [00:37:00] whatever they’re called.Simone Collins: Sorry. Someone in the comment had noticed that the last time you did this, I mean, it’s, it’s obviously tradition for you to things I love, but the pointMalcolm Collins: being is that the people who go in right wing message boards and are like, yeah, we actually should like hate the Jews, or, you know, we actually should you know, hate gay populations or we actually should you know.By the way, Charlie Kirk was not saying that stuff. He was saying, the Bible says that you shouldn’t do this stuff. Mm-hmm. He wasn’t saying that you should hate these people.Mm-hmm.Right. And yet these people come into our spaces and you need to see them as being no different than these people on the left.They, they aren’t really part of the wider ideological movement. Like, oh yeah, we really should you know, create you know, like an all white nation or something like that. Right. Like, these individuals are, just our community sort of ticks, like their community has ticks and they can grow and radicalize people into becoming shooters.Like just, what was it recently? There was a shooting [00:38:00] at ICE or something. A a against, not the ice officers this time, but against the migrants. Right. And so it is our job to prevent that by pointing out how pathetic these individuals are and there isn’t really a coherent philosophy behind what they believe.Yeah. It’s just that their parents told them these things were naughty, and society told them these things were naughty and now they think they’re being cool by doing. Yeah. It, it’sSimone Collins: philosophically vacant. Edge lords desperate for attention. It is the most thirsty and sad thing you can ever do.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and this is something that we’ve promoted on other recent podcast, is the topic of post racism, which I think we as a society need to move towards, which is.The old definitions of racism and non racism, they don’t really matter anymore. Everybody could say, oh, you are racist, or You are racist. By the nineties definition, it’s like, whatever. Like clearly the wokes have some new definition of what racist is. And clearly the right is like, I don’t even see why we’re like focused on this word when, you know, whatever.You know, the [00:39:00] definition seems of fluid and I think that post racist is a good concept, which is just to say you recognize that groups are different. But like. Focusing on every edgy way in which they’re different is not a productive conversation for anyone. And you’re not really sharing information that anyone who’s interested in learning it does, isn’t already aware of.Yeah. You, you just you know, serve to, well basically masturbate online. Like that’s what you’re doing. You’re like, look at how edgy I am. Look at how edge I am. Look, I know information I’m not supposed to know. Which is one of the things that we always try to avoid doing on this podcast. Yeah. When we, when we try to do something edgy, it’s because we’re asking a question that other people haven’t asked, and you need to say what we’re saying on this.Podcast is quite edgy for the conservative audience that we have which is you need to normalize fetish porn. You don’t it’s, and it’s not necessarily fetish porn, but I’d say fetish arousal patterns, like unusual arousal patterns, just be like, weird things are gonna turn you on. That’s totally normal.That’s [00:40:00] not because you were abused as a kid. We’ve, we’ve actually pointed out. In a lot of our research, there’s not strong correlation between a lot of this and abuse. Like, like it’s not that abuse doesn’t affect sexuality at all. It can like make you more like hypersexual and stuff like that, but it doesn’t focus whether or not weird things are gonna turn you on.Mm-hmm. It appears to just be random genetics. Mm-hmm. And that’s, that’s really all there is to it.Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s not about your choice. You don’t get that choice. What you do get to choose is, is how you act on it and how you deal with it. And yeah, there, there are productive ways to handle this and I think, you know, the most productive way depends on the time and context.And so I think that many religions, like historical religions methods for dealing with these things may have made sense in those historical contexts, but those coping mechanisms don’t work in the modern age when there are internet forums and discord servers and telegram groups, et cetera. Where things go off the rails.You know, it may [00:41:00] work in like a small village with no telecommunications. We don’t live in that age anymore. But that is, yeah, God, it’s just terrifying. I didn’t know this was a thing. I, I just can’t believe that people are, you know, up in arms about Dubai’s port-a-potty parties whenMalcolm Collins: this is, they don’t care.No kids going cra Yeah. No, that doesn’t, yeah. LikeSimone Collins: meanwhile, their kids are in a closet biting off their hamster’s heads and carving usernames into their skin and no one’s talking about it. I mean, I guess you said that wired heads done a beast, but Catherine d when she mentioned it. Had said actually coverage on this is, is just pretty dismal.Like very, very few outlets are actually covering this and actually going into this and it’s a serious issue. I’m sure when they, their wayMalcolm Collins: right wing extremism.Simone Collins: Yeah. IMalcolm Collins: don’t know actually,Simone Collins: no. She cited that there was one really conservative outlet that has actually done some of the best reporting and that she was really loathed to, to admit it, that she never would admit it if the reporting weren’t really good.[00:42:00]So.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, there’s that.Simone Collins: I, I appreciate that. Well,Malcolm Collins: I mean, it’s an anti-Christian group, soSimone Collins: Yeah, maybe that’s actually why mainstream media isn’t covering it as much, just because they’re like. Eh, you know, Satanists,Malcolm Collins: whatever, like trying to take over churches, I guess. Yeah. That word. Yeah. They do them.Simone Collins: Yeah, sure.Whatever. But, wow. Yikes. Thanks.Malcolm Collins: Love you to Decone. Have a spectacular day. And don’t join a Satanist cult. Okay.Simone Collins: Yeah, you neither. And let’s maybe talk to our kids about this.Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah. Just and, and again, if you’re like, well, what do I do? The Pragma Guide to Sexuality, the audio book, the book, we make them super cheap, easily accessible and it is a good, like, honest sexuality book and sexuality is the number one way that kids are radicalized.Simone Collins: Yeah, there you go.Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you to death.Simone Collins: Love you too. And by the way, thank you so much for, I mean, since [00:43:00] 2:00 AM handling temperamentalMalcolm Collins: well, you’re pregnant, you know?Simone Collins: Yeah. But. I feel guilty and grateful and they clearly feel super comforted by you and it was so nice of you to go down and make sure they’re okay and clean up messes well,Malcolm Collins: I’m glad I, I fooled them into thinking I’m a nice guy.You know, the kids are, kids seem to like me. I, no, they adore you. This is but poor judgment of character on their part. I’ll tell you what, just ‘cause I’m their dad, I’m okay.Simone Collins: You are a safe place for them. And they love it and they love getting, I dunno, I’veMalcolm Collins: read the news. Apparently I beat them. This is they beatSimone Collins: you more.Let’s be honest. They beat you more. Yes. The best moment ever was when we had that journalist over and we were showing them like how completely unafraid they were of us by like going to like s slap their face, but then like stopping our hands right there. And they like don’t react at all and they just think it’s really funny and then they.Went to do the same thing to you later and you like [00:44:00] flinched big time because both of us are covered in bruises from them.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They they’re, they’re attack children. This is what they, I there was the one video at the end of one of the videos recently where the kids were coming after me and. They all got together like a pack and they were being very aggressive and I felt like I had like a pack of like wild animals chasing me around.It’s likeSimone Collins: that scene in Jurassic Park with the, you know, that little, like the, the guy’s like, oh, they’re just little tiny, you know, like SSIR raptors. Like not a problem. But then they start flocking and he’s screwed.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And thatSimone Collins: as soon as we get to kid number five, I mean, it’s good to get to a point where you are genuinely scared for yourself.Oh,Malcolm Collins: absolutely. Well, you are happy.Simone Collins: Actually, we’ve already reached number fiveMalcolm Collins: in a few days, so. Oh, we gotta have enough backlog, right? That you guys don’t miss a day.Simone Collins: Not a day. Yeah. And who knows how much I’m gonna hemorrhage out in this one. So we gotta Did you hemorrage last time? I lost, I lost. I mean, you always lose a lot of blood when you do these, but like with some c-sections, you [00:45:00] can lose a lot, a lot of blood.I, I, I shouldn’t, but like, you know it, who knows? I, I try to get out of the hospital. You don’t be lost byMalcolm Collins: cutting off your finger.Simone Collins: I know, man, that cut the tick inside of my finger. Let’s go. You ready?Malcolm Collins: Oh. How did the episode today do?Simone Collins: It went well. I think people really enjoyed it. We, we today ran the episode on survey stats showing the differences between Gen Z, male and female, Trump and Harris voters.People found it telling, they found it interesting. People had interesting things to say about their thoughts about whether and when there will be a debt jubilee how Gen Z is going to fare through the collapse and the disruption. So it’s just, it’s a very thought provoking. Topic that I think is also very much top of mind for so many people.As we’re clicking our way to the top of a rollercoaster right now, waiting, waiting for our stomach to up, what happens? [00:46:00] Alright. Yeah. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

This discussion takes a sharp look at the decline of celebrity culture, spotlighting Taylor Swift as a potential last true pop star. The hosts unpack the backlash against figures like Emma Watson over controversial opinions and how social media has transformed our view of fame. They explore the hollow legacy of traditional stars, the rise of micro-celebrities, and how scandals erode the untouchable aura once held by celebrities. With shifts in public sentiment from aspiration to resentment, the conversation reveals a world where authenticity trumps mass appeal.

Malcolm and Simone explore alarming findings about large language models and their surprising capacity for self-preservation. They discuss scenarios where AI models might choose harmful actions over being shut down, likening it to human self-defense. The duo examines blackmail tactics employed by these models and the motivations behind misaligned behavior. They also warn about trust issues within AI interactions and contemplate potential solutions for improving AI safety, emphasizing the importance of aligning AI goals with ethical standards.

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they dive into the viral controversy surrounding Tylenol, pregnancy, and autism. From RFK’s claims to TikTok trends, they break down the science, the media reactions, and the real risks behind the headlines. The discussion covers medical studies, social media challenges, political polarization, and personal stories about pregnancy and autism. Whether you’re a parent, skeptic, or just curious about the latest health debates, this episode offers a nuanced, evidence-based perspective. [00:00:00]Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I am excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be going over something that I have found really fascinating, which is both RFK, saying that, you know, Tylenol and pseudomona could lead to autism or other birth complications.And then more interesting the left’s reaction to it for me where there have been viral trends of women just taking lots of Tylenol, I can’t even TikTok, and there was one report of a death from this and we’ll get over whether that report is likely accurate. I hope it’snot,I think it’s plausibly accurate.I think over 50% chance that it’s accurate. And we’ll do, I mean a lot ofSimone Collins: people overdose on Tylenol. All the time anyway, so, yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well you don’t know when you’re trying to get like TikTok points or something like that. I mean, these other women who are doing this and there have been thousands of videos of women doing this that are getting millions of views.Right. I hope they’re justSimone Collins: drinking something fake [00:01:00] out of Tylenol bottles or, or taking fake pills. They’re taking.Malcolm Collins: Well, they’re,Simone Collins: yeah. May I, I hope they’re taking, you know, like your pills.Speaker: I got a call, very frantic call at four o’clock in the morning from a husband whose wife is now dying of liver failure on a ventilator in an ICU, um, because she was trying to prove that Tylenol doesn’t cause autism because of, um. What Trump said on the news, mind you, that’s a Harvard study. Now, whether or not you believe the Harvard study or not is not, not the issue here.The issue is that she’s somewhere between 23 to 25 weeks and she overdosed on Tylenol and she’s going to die. She’s not gonna come off that ventilator. People are, are just taking massive amounts of Tylenol to prove, prove Trump wrong. I mean, weren’t these the same people who put Harvard and Fauci and the pillars of science?On a pedestal. And now they refuse to believe [00:02:00] 28 weeks pregnant. You know what, I’m gonna take some, the title, we’ll see. The oph gonna work like a charm and my baby won’t have autism.Speaker 3: How dumb are they that you hate a president enough? To risk the health of your unborn child, and where the hell are the, the men who made him pregnant? Mm. Probably, I’m telling you, I would have an issue. This is not new. The warning not to take acetaminophen during pregnancy is not new. It is. Well.Simone Collins: So,Malcolm Collins: and we’ll get into this for people who don’t know Tylenol is by like, mu, let’s ignore the JFK, let’s ignore the new studies that we’re gonna go into.Mm-hmm. It was considered to be the safest pain reliever when you’re pregnant, but not. Safe for pregnancy, it, it was the safest option when you needed an option. [00:03:00] Yeah, and to beSimone Collins: clear, in multiple pregnancies we have used Tylenol, and that is because you have to balance risks. So if you have a really high fever and you have, for example, a first trimester baby.You, you risk giving that baby neural tube defects if they are exposed to a high fever. So for the baby we just had who is now in the NICU and was otherwise very healthy, he basically sustained an injury while being born. So nothing inherently wrong with him. I had a very high fever. Moments after the embryo was transferred and then like one week after when neural tube development began, I was definitely on Tylenol.Like everyone was likeMalcolm Collins: aware of is is cost benefit trade off with this stuff ‘cause we’re, we’re also gonna go over in this. Even if RFK is right about everything he’s saying, what is the actual risk of one of the complications from Tylenol? And it’s still fairly low. Mm-hmm. I say a single one to 2% increase in, in probability.Yeah. And this is [00:04:00] based probability, not, you know, if the, if the original risk was 1% and now the new risk is 2%, you could say, well, it increased by a hundred percent, or it increased by 1%, itSimone Collins: doubled your risk, which sounds so scary.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and but the, sorry, the point I was gonna make here is it’s as if these people hate, like our political side more than they love their children.They would just decide to risk their, and when I say risks, their child, Tylenol itself said in tweets, in multiple tweets that will go over. Do not take this when you’re pregnant.Mm-hmm. Ithas not been approved for use in pregnancy and it may have negative consequences.Mm-hmm.When people asked if they could, so like, this is mainstream, the company itself saying don’t do this.Everyone should know that you can’t just take infinite Tylenol. But I think these people are just like, my side says, Trump is bad for saying [00:05:00] x, therefore. I don’t need to like, like do they not even research? Did they not even Google before? They just start taking a ton of Tylenol when they’re visibly pregnant?I mean,it reminds me of in, in Scotland I heard one of the, a report from my friend of, of a girl who he knew from like inner city Glasgow. ‘cause that’s where he grew up, where she was smoking when she was pregnant. And they were like, why are you doing that? And, and she said she heard it made the, the baby smaller so that giving birth would hurt less.Oh.So there are astonishingly stupid people out there. Well, and, and there’sSimone Collins: the, the other example of I, someone on, on social media was complaining that they ordered a grocery delivery that included Tylenol and the person who delivered the groceries substituted it for acetaminophen and was like, didn’t you know that Trump said that Tylenol isn’t safe?And. They’reMalcolm Collins: theSimone Collins: same thing.Malcolm Collins: The same thing. Yeah. I know. And the Simone has been bemoaning the entire time this [00:06:00] controversy has been going. How upsetting it must be to be at Tylenol just because Trump cannot pronounce acetaminophen. Yeah. And we know that’s why he said Tylenol. ‘cause there’s this feature apparent, we’re like.You describe it, you described it to me this morning. Oh my. It’sSimone Collins: the, no, you have to, I’ll, I’ll try to find a clip of the press conference. Yeah. Where Trump, you know, makes this big announcement about RF K’s report on acetaminophen. And he’s like, oh man, I’m gonna mispronounce this. And he tries to say the word acetaminophen and butchers it multiple times.And, and Kennedy, RFK is just standing right behind him the whole time with his pain, look on his face and you know, his voice is super screwed up. So he is saying acetaminophen, acetaminophen. And like obviously Trump is not hearing it and you could see his, his lips moving and he’s trying to tell Trump, obviously Trump didn’t listen to the white Stripes.And, and,Malcolm Collins: and a and did they talk about acetaminophen?Simone Collins: Yeah. There’s this, the, you know, you have no taste in medicine. Acetaminophin. Okay. You see.Speaker 5: First, , effective immediately the FDA will be notifying physicians at the use of ace. [00:07:00] Well, let’s see how we say that. Ace acid, acetaminophen. Acetaminophen. Is that okay? Yes. Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol during pregnancy can be associated with a very increase. Risk of autism. So taking Tylenol is, , not good.Alright. I’ll say it, it’s not good for this reason. They are strongly recommending that women limit Tylenol use during pregnancy unless medically necessary. That’s, , for instance, in cases of high fever.Simone Collins: Well, so the,Malcolm Collins: the great thing here about all of this and, and I will know when people are like, like, what are your guys deeper thoughts before I get into this?Simone, you believe that there actually aren’t. Particularly like you think that RFK messed up the studies that [00:08:00] he was citing. I think that maybe you were told this by a progressive journalist without actually looking into the volume of studies that he was citing. Okay. So I, I, I think he is likely accurate that there, there probably is some complication there.I also really, mySimone Collins: understanding is that this is one of those issues where he, there, there wasn’t enough correction used. Like when you ultimately correct for. A bunch of factors that you should be correcting for in a, in a study, which is hard. It’s a very nuanced thing. Right.Malcolm Collins: But that’s, you sort of have the impression that this was like one study of like 20,000 people.Yeah. When it was like. Eight studies of like 80,000 to 200,000 people each. Mm-hmm. Done by different teams that all came to around the same result. So I, I wanna be clear here. It you, you had the impression, like, it was like one study that made a mistake, and I think one study might’ve made a mistake.I mean, the left has to react reactively to everything like this. I think the wider problem around autism is Simone’s diagnosis, autism. Our kids are diagnosed with autism. It’s genetic. Also, it’s a bunch of different things. My mom had a view of autism that is not [00:09:00] dissimilar from RFK. She’s like, you know, she won’t be able to love you or the children.And when one of our kids was diagnosed with autism, she was like, well, you know, that’s it for his life. You know, and at RFK I’ll see all these things. Like, you know, when people with who have autism, their lives are ruined. Meanwhile, you know, Elon has been diagnosed with autism because he is diagnosed with Asperger’s, and Asperger’s is no longer a separate diagnosis.So he would be technically autistic. And so, we need to, I think realistically as a society break apart autism into multiple diagnoses. Again, yes, it’s really, really stupid to have it listed as one diagnoses when one person is like Elon or my wife and then another person. Can’t use the bathroom on their own.Like, why are we calling these the same thing? It’s, it’s, it’s not even like degrees. And the reason why the wokes and the woke departments cannot do this is because. Then all of the people who are using this to try to claim like disability points and which, which, which they need for their social games, [00:10:00] right?Like anyone could just self ideas, autistic, which they do, you know, the internet, right? And then the people who actually. Have challenges because of this. They, they point to them as if they’re in the same kind of disabled camp as the actually severely disabled person. And the mere fact, and I actually think it’s really sick and psychotic, that people do this because you will see like far lefties online, like literally be like.How dare RFK say he wants to reduce autism rates. This is a genocide against my people. This is my people being erased. And, and, and so no research should be done into reducing autism. When I’m like, you understand that? Like this is a diagnosis that’s also being applied to people who can barely function in society or Yeah.WhoSimone Collins: will forever be in diapers and need full-time round the clock care, who will never be able to get a job, will never be able to do anything independently. Who are huge risks to themselves and others. Yeah. Yeah. Like how,Malcolm Collins: how dare you say that those [00:11:00] people that we shouldn’t try to reduce whatever’s causing that.Just so you can claim your disability points and the RFK is coming to genocide, you. Yeah, and I thinkSimone Collins: that there, there are some conditions that are diagnosed as autism that are downstream of just other things, like there’s this new medication that a lot of people are talking about. Which is meant it to treat, I think maybe like a thyroid imbalance or something like that, that really does seem to effectively treat it at, at least in, in the research, it’s been focused on children, but adults have also reported big changes in like their language processing ability, and that’s getting grouped in and, and those people want this treatment because it makes them.Like they, they can be more functional as people. Yeah. And so there’s all these things that like sensitivities to stuff, imbalances to things. All the, and it’s autism. I’m sayingMalcolm Collins: this to somebody with autistic wife. Autistic kids, right. If you use the fact. That you are autistic to try to prevent other people, [00:12:00] especially if you are not low functioning autistic.Mm-hmm. To try to prevent other people from coming up with cures or preventing that you are an actual psychopath and like when people shouldSimone Collins: have the right to. Try to avoid or lean into certain traits that they want. You know, you shouldn’t force people. Right, right, right. That’s not what I’m talkingMalcolm Collins: about here.When you see somebody online being like, how dare they attempt to reduce this? How dare they work on cures for this when you are not actually dealing with the negative consequences that they are trying to address? Ohyeah, yeah. Youare. Basically sacrificing those people and those future people for your chance to sort of emotionally masturbate online.And one, our audience needs to call these people out when they do this. Like people need to stop feeling okay doing this. Yeah. People need to stop feeling okay. Like this is how we got to this place in society is that people would do stuff like this and we’d just like roll our eyes and we need to be like, you are an actual psychopath that you would throw low functioning autistic people under the [00:13:00] bus like this.Yeah. Just so you can feel good about yourself. But anyway I wanted to go into the woman who’s, he’s he’s back on screen by the way. Cam, maybeSimone Collins: NICU cam.Malcolm Collins: We just had maximally autistic. We, we, you know, did all of it all write feedback off screen? No. Needed to ensure maximum autism in this one.Yeah. Text the autistic, that’s his middle name, the autistic, it’s, it’s actually Demy from the, the Culture Series by Ian Beman. But anyway the woman who, who potentially killed herself, where does this report come from?Simone Collins: Yeah,Malcolm Collins: whatSimone Collins: happened? Well, first, what did sheMalcolm Collins: do? She did a video where she did a bunch of Tylenol to try to show that it’s not risky at all while she was pregnant.No. Oh, oh, oh. I told you thousands of women are doing these videos. This is a viral trip.Simone Collins: Then. It’s not just her, she’s putting at risk. Oh, that’s dude. Like, yeah. Everyone knows in pregnancy, like, you can’t take anything. You can’t take anything. You can’t drink chamomile tea. I mean, come [00:14:00] on.Malcolm Collins: These people hate you more than they love their children.That’s, that’s just the end of it. Okay. They, they, they, their children, they’re just having them to extend this. A life, I guess this, this, this hypothesis of happiness that they are living, that that clearly isn’t giving them what they want. So by the way, Simone, I just finished this off. Let’s try to remember to not throw these away and wash them out because I think they make really good bonkers for the kids.They’ve got. Okay, I’ll, I’ll, let me wash them out with soap though. You don’t want ‘em to like grumble? Yeah. They’ve got a sort of club shape to them. I can put them in like a milk break balloon or something. Yeah, they’re gonna break our kidsSimone Collins: play with trash. We’ve beenMalcolm Collins: looking for some, like good toy swords for our kids and yeah.This, this would be a great one. They’re goodSimone Collins: clubs. Yeah. IMalcolm Collins: gotta, gotta look for that in the future. The, the good bonker stuff. Try to findSimone Collins: some way for them to decorate them or something. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: But anyway, it was a video posted by Nicole Sir Tech, who is the executive director of American Frontline Nurses.Now the reason why a lot of progressives disbelieved it [00:15:00] is she was flagged with COVID misinformation. Specifically she was one of the people who said that these shots might be killing some people. Which. We basically now know that some of the early shots were causing the type of blood clot in some individuals basically.Okay. So the story here our behind the scenes information on this is that when the shots were approved, they were approved for intramuscular injection only. And that that required a special type of trained nurse, and so it would’ve made it harder for them to be deployed at the rate that they needed to be deployed at.Mm-hmm.And so, when they accidentally did go intravenously which I think happens like one of like 5% of the time or like 3% of the time it would form a blood clot, which could cause heart, heart issues. And yeah, like when youSimone Collins: do an intramuscular shot, what you’re supposed to do is pull out the plunger a little bit to see if you pull any blood.If you do, then you need to start. It’s not thatMalcolm Collins: hard to train people. They just basically decide. Yeah, it justSimone Collins: takes a lot and I mean. But it’s also like more disturbing for the actual [00:16:00] recipient. So I could see like from an optic standpoint of view. Yeah. The point being isMalcolm Collins: that she wasn’t wrong about this, but you know, she broke a progressive, like mainstream thing and so they’re like, oh, now you can’t trust anything she says.But anyway she claimed that she received a frantic 4:00 AM call from an anonymous husbands who’s 23 to 25 week pregnant, had overdosed. On an entire bottle of Tylenol after seeing trumped announcement in TikTok trends CTEC said the woman was now on liver failure and a ventilator and there was little chance of survival for her and her baby.And people have said, well, why can’t you get a camera crew on this woman if this is real? And she is Basically, the answer is, if you’re not. Retarded is this woman clearly does not like Trump, right? She doesn’t want the fact that she screwed up and likely is going to die, and her baby died. To be a right wing talking point, very obviously, she isn’t going to consent to being on camera about this.You could say, why wouldn’t the hospital consent to this? You think a hospital’s gonna throw one of its patients under the bus like [00:17:00] that? Like are you out of your mind? There, if, if this is a real thing, you wouldn’t be able to easily confirm it. And this lady is not on record having lied before, and she runs a major nurses organization.She’s not like a, a nobody out there. Right. So, yeah, I, I think it’s very plausible what she’s saying, especially when I look at these TikTok Trends videos and I’m like, that looks like a potentially lethal amount that you’re taking there. Like somebody has explained to you that Tylenol isn’t. A a no side effects medication.Right. Like, I, I just don’t think they, they’re aware of this. So to get to the thing I was talking about, the Twitter from Tylenol the at Tylenol brand wrote, we don’t actually recommend using any of our products while pregnant. Thank you for taking time to voice your concerns. They deleted that post, by the way.They got freaked out because it’s gone viral recently. Oh goodness. In another post at Tylenol said, congrats on your upcoming edition, ex. So exciting [00:18:00] Excl. Mark, it would be great to touch base real quick since we haven’t tested Tylenol to be used during pregnancy. Call us when you can quote then in another one on addressing pregnancy brains at Tylenol.Said, we’re sorry to hear that it hasn’t helped your pregnancy plans. Please be sure to talk to your doctor for alternative pain relief options. So basically, and multiple. Things Tylenol was saying, Hey, you shouldn’t be doing this.Simone Collins: Yeah, and just for pain, I mean,Malcolm Collins: yeah. You undergo so much pain during pregnancy when you tough it out, Simone, you’re such tough.It’s better.Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, like, I don’t know. I, I think that medications should only be taken to protect the baby. When you’re pregnant, you get thrown under the bus. I do not care. Mm-hmm.Malcolm Collins: I, I heard you can’t even drink when you’re pregnant anymore. What, what would I actually feelSimone Collins: like peopleMalcolm Collins: are really loosening up on that.They’re like, ah, like,Simone Collins: yeah, takeMalcolm Collins: it’sSimone Collins: fine. Have a glass of wine. MyMalcolm Collins: mom, she drank during pregnancy.Simone Collins: YourMalcolm Collins: mom? Yeah. Half a bottle of wine a day. Yeah. Half a bottle of wine a day. So she drank and, and everyone’s like, wait, you don’t have fetal alcohol [00:19:00] syndrome? You can tell like, you know, Greta Berg has fetal alcohol syndrome and it, it’s pretty easy to tell when you’re looking at somebody.And people can be like, why aren’t you? And I was like, do you know how much alcohol I drink? Like my family is like immune to the effect not evenSimone Collins: immune. It, it’s like you, you need it like bender.Speaker 6: Leave me alone. Look at that. Five o’clock rust. You’ve been up all night. Not drinking, haven’t you? Hey, what I don’t do is none of your business please bend or have some malt liquor. If not for yourself, then for the people who love you.Speaker 7: Wait. I want you to look me in the eye and promise you won’t get behind the wheel without some kind of alcoholic beverage in your hand.Speaker 6: I promise nothing.Simone Collins: It’s, yeah. It’s a necessary part of your diet without you,Malcolm Collins: people are like, Malcolm, you’re really smart.I’m like, imagine how smart I would be if I wasn’t born you know, soaked in and half a bottle. Born pickled. Yeah. Pickled.But let’s go into these studies. Because I think [00:20:00] that you might have a, a misunderstanding of why he made this decision. Okay. Where did you get this understanding that you have, by the way, was it on blocked and reported that No, I asked, I askedSimone Collins: PerplexityMalcolm Collins: no. Okay.Simone Collins: But I mean that, you know, like, it, it’s dealing with source data that has skewed so.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And I’m asking crock, so right, like we’re, we’re getting it both from ads. Well, there you go. So, so, nurses in health study two, 2019, among 29,000 mother child pairs, prenatal acetaminophen exposure was linked to 20 to 30% higher risk of autism or A DHD In children the adjusted odds ratio is 1.22, 1.3 longer exposure duration correlated with greater risk.Now, I’ll note here before we go to the next study, that was a 29. Thousand mother child pair thing. And it didn’t just show greater risk. It showed the more you took, the greater the risk was.Simone Collins: Yeah. But I thought that what there was was a correlation between people who [00:21:00] were autistic themselves taking more Tylenol when pregnant.Malcolm Collins: Okay. Maybe, but I, I just can’t believe that that wasn’t tested for in a single one of these studies. So we’re gonna go to the next study.Simone Collins: Okay.Malcolm Collins: Next study. Boston birth cohort in 2,500. Urban mother child pairs diverse, low income, prolonged exposure, over 28 days associated with four x. Higher a SD risk or autism risk.Now this one is interesting because this is what I saw when I looked into this before when you first started giving birth, because of course I wanted to know like, is Tylenol safe to take while you’re pregnant? And what I remember reading, and this is what I’ve always communicated to you, is that when it was found unsafe, particularly in animal models you basically needed to be on it for very long periods of time.IE 28 days or more, like you wouldn’t even. Think of taking Tylenol 28 days in a row while you were pregnant whereas this is where you’re getting these, these risk scenarios. And, and, and [00:22:00] this was what we saw in mice around risks from it. Is is normal amounts of Tylenol taken for extremely long periods of time.And some people just do this because they have daily pain. And that’s where I think we really do need to be looking at the risk from this because I, I would not be at all surprised to this four x higher rate. And, and I don’t think you can get something like a four x higher rate just from a correlation with autistic people being more likely to take Tylenol.Simone Collins: I think maybe there’s a I’m gonna check this to something about siblings like. In, in pregnancies that had more acetaminophen intake. If you also looked at whether their siblings were autistic, there were, but then, I mean, presumably the mothers just have a habit of taking moreMalcolm Collins: Yeah,Simone Collins: more acetaminophen.However it, it does say that some research indicates that there is a maternal genetic predisposition to neuro development conditions and, and correlating with increased pregnancy symptoms like autistic people. As you know, are more sensitive to [00:23:00] a lot of things. True. And therefore may medicate more.I don’t think they getMalcolm Collins: you four x higher risk. That’s really high. Okay, let’s go to the next one here. Harvard th Chan School of Public Health Review 2025. Mm-hmm. They did an NIH funded meta analysis of 46 studies with over a hundred thousand. Participants.Mm-hmm.And they found, quote unquote, co consistent associations.27 studies showed positive links to a to autism A DHD with higher quality ones being more likely to report risks. So ones that were using more controls showed more risks.Mm-hmm.Say, recommended minimal use John Hopkins University and that, that just came out this year and used over a hundred thousand people.John Hopkins University study 2019. Meta-analysis of seven studies with around 130,000 participants reported 20 to 30% increase in both A DHD and autism. And this mattered more in boys and more if it was used later in pregnancy. Later in pregnancy. Later inSimone Collins: pregnancy. That’sMalcolm Collins: [00:24:00] interesting ‘Simone Collins: cause normally.The impression I get is it’s the, it’s what you’re exposing a baby to earlier in pregnancy. That has more of an impact.Malcolm Collins: Then we have the, and note here, I’m, I’m, I’m here talking about like John Hopkins, Harvard, NIH. This isn’t like some crack pot, like conservative, whatever. Seen a bunch of yahoos. This is, it’s, it’s not like the, the actual thing that happened here is not.That because a lot of people are like, well, he couldn’t possibly have run enough studies to get this data in this amount of time. This is basically something that was well and commonly known throughout the medical field before this. Hmm. But it was also known that we don’t wanna scare women about Tylenol too much because we, we do.Simone Collins: I’ll take autism over a neural tube defect any day.Malcolm Collins: Yeah,Simone Collins: absolutely. AnyMalcolm Collins: day. Right? So that’s, that’s the point, right, is they wanted to not overly freak people out. So they, there wasn’t some big [00:25:00] campaign around this, but I’ve, but I’ve noticed that there was this like weird reactive thing on the left, and I think it sort of came from the, autism is from vaccines thing where any explanation for autism is taken as a sign of a conspiracy theory. Mm-hmm. Anyone saying this is what might be causing autism rates they’re just like. Ah, that’s definitionally conspiracy theory because we know that what causes autism is one of the things we’re not allowed to talk about.I I, in the same way that like, if we’re talking about like falling fertility rates, you’re like, oh, that must be a great replacement theory thing. That must be a conspiracy theory because we just know this is in the category of things we’re not allowed to talk about. So Mount Sinai study came out in 2025.This was the cohort of a thousand mothers and it found 25% higher risk. There was the international consensus statement in 2021 which had 91 experts from 17 countries review data and urged precautionary limits on acetaminophen during pregnancy due to quote unquote emerging neurodevelopmental [00:26:00] risks.So, so in 2021, like a group of experts, and this was published in nature. Nature reviews, endocrinology saying the experts, the 91 experts came together and said, do not take this wantonly during pregnancy. Biological mechanisms. Review 2022. This one actually had a proposed pathway.Acetaminophen may disrupt fetal brain development via glutathione depletion and prostaglandin inhibition and hormone interference.Simone Collins: Oh, wow.Malcolm Collins: So yeah that’s a lot of research from a lot of really, and, and this is the thing, there’s also a lotSimone Collins: of research that points out that endocrine disruptors in, you know, first trimester at the very least, and probably all trimesters.You know, are, are really not good to be exposed to. And if you’re ordering takeout, if you’re eating at a restaurant, like your stuff is being cooked in plastic, you’re getting that exposure. If you’re microwaving stuff in plastic, you’re getting exposure. [00:27:00] If you’re breathing in the air, you are getting that exposure.So. You know, like,Malcolm Collins: no. But the point you are making, and I I make this point as well, is if you watch this podcast, you’re gonna be broadly aware of the tide studies that she’s referencing here which show that young boys who mothers have endocrine disruptors in them during the first trimester of pregnancy which are common in a lot of chemicals today.They develop less into fully males. They show more female play behavior at the age of seven, lower an genital distance at birth. Yeah. So, this is a thing that is known. If RFK went up there and said there’s a chemical that’s, you know, making young boys develop more like young girls everyone would be like, oh, you turn in the frogs gay.Oh, this is a conspiracy theory. Oh, can you believe how crazy it is? The next day there would be 20 things from the left about why these studies don’t have proper controls and why these studies don’t have properSimone Collins: women eating plastic microwaving their vegetables and plastic bags. Yeah. YouMalcolm Collins: [00:28:00] guys know this.We know this. This was just a category of thing that was in certain communities, was commonly known. IE, the the in nature from the big panel of international experts. And RFK just basically went up and said it publicly and the left had to have an existential freakout in the same way that and I, I won’t say right these days, this is more common on the left, but the right used to be like this.Like when Michelle Obama decided she was gonna like plant healthy gardens in the right. Oh yeah.Simone Collins: She, yeah, she planted like a victory garden at the White House. Yeah. Yeah. What canMalcolm Collins: I do? This not gonna offend. Then it became cool on the right to be like performatively unhealthy for a while and people would walk around with like the giant, like baby size.Speaker 9: Then there is a horrifying 512 ounce version that they call child Side. How is this a child size soda? Well, it’s roughly the size of a 2-year-old child. If the child were liquified,Malcolm Collins: oh God.Simone Collins: Yes.Malcolm Collins: Cups of, of [00:29:00] soda drinking them just to show Oh, I’m not a, a cocky damn. I, I am destroying my body to, to show how bad they are. Right. You know? The broader thing is. Because people often ask, what do we think of Maha? What do we think of RFK?He seems pretty cool, is what I’d say. I, I don’t think, I think he’s like, seems like a righteous dude. He seems like a righteous dude. Yeah.Speaker 11: . He jeopardizes my ability to effectively govern this student body.Speaker 12: Oh, well, he’s very popular. Ed, the S Portos and Motorhead geeks sluts, bloods, OIDs, dweebs, dickhead. They all adore him. They think he’s a righteous dude.Malcolm Collins: He, he, he’s not right about all the science that he does. Absolutely true. He does make mistakes. He is not like a rationalist, he’s much closer to a granola mom.But. He doesn’t attack the things that I care about. He’s, he’s not out there, you know, complaining about GMO foods, [00:30:00] which I think are like a way, I love that, that we took the, let’s prevent the random chemicals in endorphin. A blocker, you know? And let’s, let’s drop the GMO in anti-nuclear stuff.That was common in, in the old granola communities. Like I remember at Stanford, somebody was like, you’re, you’re they’re trying to get me flyers about that. And I was like, oh, like, no, sorry, I’m, I’m a scientist. And they’re like, oh, well then you must be extra against it. And I was like. Nobody who has a deep understanding of biology is against this, it, it, it’s not that it cannot cause issues.Right. Like you, you can’t get crossbreeding with wild specimens. You can’t get change in wild populations. And then, you know,Simone Collins: there’s the, the, the political commercial issues of like theoretically an agricultural company that produces them suing a farmer who’s growing it because they didn’t pay for the seeds.Right, right, right. ButMalcolm Collins: if you’re, but if you’re actually aware of how much. Extra crop is produced because of this. Well, and oftenSimone Collins: without the need for, [00:31:00] genuinely bad for your health. Pesticides. Pesticides, yes.Malcolm Collins: Which grow into the water supply. Yes. And then it’s not just the pesticides that you are eating these pesticides through.The rainwater go into the rivers. And they just completely f up these ecosystems. Yeah. Like if, if you care about environmentalism, you are pro GMO. Clearly if you care about like starving Africans, you’re pro GMO, it gets all of these very important nutrients into regions where you can’t easily otherwise get them through like golden rice and stuff we’re talking about.Hundreds of millions of lives are almost certainly saved every year by the existence of GMOs. Mm-hmm. Like the, the, the, it’s, it’s one of these things where you just need to be sort of like comically incompetent or evil to be against it, like being against nuclear power or something like that. Mm-hmm.Like it’s, it’s like a strict benefit thing when it’s being well maintained. I mean, you can say, well, what if, what, what if it’s not being, then focus on maintaining it, man. Right. Like this isn’t the, the decommission them when they get too old. Right. Build new ones. That’s what we should be doing right now, but we don’t have any major projects doing [00:32:00] that.And most of our nuclear plants are over 50 years old. I don’t know if you knew that. Not, not great. When I think of a 50-year-old person’s structural state but. The, the, the, what was I gonna say was the, the wider point here. I don’t know whenSimone Collins: you think about it though, also, like appliance has built 50 years ago, last, a lot longer thanMalcolm Collins: appliances built today, so, yep.But you know, but the other thing I was gonna say about RFK is so people are like, well, so he gets some science wrong sometimes being over granola, over crunchy. Like, is that a problem for you? And I’m like, as long as he doesn’t touch my GMOs, as long as he doesn’t touch my nuclear. Mm-hmm. And the ways that he is, is making these decisions, they’re like, well, more kids could die because communities are going unvaccinated.I think that we have treated questioning vaccines as a sacred cow for far too long. And I think we as a society need to. Go back, look at various vaccines and be open to saying that they may not be safe in some circumstances. AndSimone Collins: what REU has argued on X, which I think is. Both very [00:33:00] brutal, but also fair in like a, in a world in which we respect people’s cultural autonomy is the highest rates of vaccination happened after big death scares, after people realized this is what happens if you don’t vaccinate.If we don’t have herd immunity and then people went out in droves, like forcing people to get vaccinations is not the way people need to do it because they see the value. They themselves have been convinced and you know, they, they do it. Lemme point this out onMalcolm Collins: another episode. There’s been studies done post COVID on like masks, for example, and we now know that masks.And the regions that were heavily masked, like in the United States, the states that had less mass restrictions actually had fewer overall deaths. Mm-hmm. Even though it did increase casualties in the short term. So the idea of slowly building herd immunity and not having better effects in a lot of these external things is another thing that we just haven’t been studying very well.This, this also is true in, in, in Europe. Not, not smaller, it was statistically no different effects there. Mm-hmm. But. [00:34:00] The point being we as a society need to be open to having conversations about this. And I’m okay with RFK mostly because I like the voter base he brings into the right, like. He brings in the granola moms and the soccer moms, and we only have to care and deal with like a few.He’s not like banning you from getting Tylenol while pregnant or something. Right. You know, maybe incorrect things being spoken about. You know, somebody was boomer’s idea of what autism is like. If you’re autistic, you’ll live your entire life in diapers and be a drain on the economy. Meanwhile, like up on stage is Elon Musk like looking nervously.But no, but I thinkSimone Collins: that DC at the time, probably Good call what? He left DC at the right time. He hasn’t, he like didn’t go back since. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Well I love that. What was it? You know, Chris Chan is, is very upset about Asperger’s people and, and now that Asperger’s isn’t around being considerate autistic because he doesn’t.I think rightly he sees them as [00:35:00] using people like him who are undergoing real and genuine challenges, like the inability to not great their mom. Come on, come on. I had to, I had to go on that. Yeah.Simone Collins: Yes, you did.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I found out today because we’ve been going through and, and pushing to private on our fab.ai, which is like the AI chat engine that we built, guys try to, it’s like getting so much better every day. I’m really proud of it. But push you know, scenarios that are overly potentially like would squi people out in the not safer work simulator section.For clarification here, the only reason we can see these is because they were set to public intentionally when they were created. , You can just choose to set things to private by default and, , unlike any of the other chat engines, our fab.ai has, , local saving enabled and not just local saving, but your save games themselves, not the local safe scenarios, but your save games themselves have military grade encryption on them and.Every time you reload, , it will ask you for a word that is used to unencrypt them. , And that word, the [00:36:00] reason it’s asked every time, is because it’s not saved on our database. So even if somebody had our database and your computer, without knowing that string , of text or word, they couldn’t unencrypt your files.Oh, and as to why we’re pushing some to private. We have some investors looking at us right now, specifically made it to the next round of the Andreessen Horowitz, , application. , And , by pushing them to private, the person who created them can still play them. But we don’t have to worry about an investor getting squibbed out and deciding that they don’t want to.Now I know a bunch of people are gonna rush and try to create specifically embarrassing stuff on there, but whatever.Malcolm Collins: We have like an automatic generator, so you don’t need to like, use simulates other people made to private. And there were a lot on incest and somebody was like, is this like a power user who’s making them all public? Or like, we, we, we on the, on the dev end don’t actually like have the ability to see that because I tried to make everything super anonymized.So wait, someone’sSimone Collins: just adding a bunch of incest content.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Incest. Fantastic.Simone Collins: I love it. Okay. Go. Whoever you are, go off whatever. Yeah. [00:37:00] Hey,Malcolm Collins: we had the episode where we’re like, yeah, cousin marriages are the best. Fourth,Simone Collins: third to fourth, but yeah,Malcolm Collins: third to fourth cousin, right? Yes. And and that was the episode where we had the big reveal to me that you and I are not related.I had no idea.Simone Collins: I know, I know. We were so sure. You were so sure that we were gonna come up as cousins.Malcolm Collins: Well, I felt like third or fourth cousins.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: But no, we look very similar. I know people joke all the time, we have similar personalities. It makesSimone Collins: sense though, like when you look at our, our the, what we knew about our lineages and like where our ancestors immigrated and stuff.It would, it would be fairly surprising. Yeah. They, yeah, they came over in very different waves. From d very different groups.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So anyway I any, any final thoughts from you on this?Simone Collins: I’m, I, I wanna look more at the research now. Yeah. I was under the impression that it was, it was totally misinterpreted.So now I’m like, well, I guess I need to.Malcolm Collins: Well, ai, you know, sometimes the question that I affirmed it was is, is why did he [00:38:00] believe this? Like, where did he get this information?Simone Collins: Oh. So, yeah, I mean, that could be a little confirmation bias, like, I mean, well, I also thenMalcolm Collins: why people don’t believe it and the answers it gave for why they didn’t believe it were so bad.Confounding factors in studies. Women take Tylenol for things like infections, migraines hyper blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, that wouldn’t increase the risk by that much. Mm-hmm. That, that would’ve a correlation to the risk, but not four x or something. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Inconsistent or weak evidence of the 46 review studies, 20% show No.Or inverse effects, but. Only 20% show no inverse effects. That’s like normal science. When you know something is right when only 20% of the studies show no lack of causality or proof. This is just nonsense here. The, the experts like those at Yale or Penn, no. Genetics explain 80 to 90% of the autism variants.Yeah, but that doesn’t then, then what about the other 10 or 20%? Like we still need to talk about that. And then they’re like, an RFK is a conspiracy theorist. And then there’s been statements from who, FIGO and European agencies [00:39:00] which say evidence does not support causality, which they released that, or the RSK thing.And I’m like, yeah, but like your top scientists were saying that it did until RFK went out there and went on the record, right? Like, this is the thing. Like everybody was like, chill about this until the Republican said it. Then they all freak out and start. Putting their heads in the sand is basically where we are as a society.And if, if you’re watching this and you’re wondering like, where do I come down on this? I think it probably does increase the risk, especially if taken for long periods, like 28 days. However, I also think that pain management is critical in a pregnancy. I don’t think so. You’re right. I thinkSimone Collins: fever management is critical in a pregnancy.IMalcolm Collins: think fever and pain management. I think if the mom has too much cortisol for too long a period, it can likely cause neurodevelopmental issues in the child. So there’s actually some really interesting studies on this. There was one study that looked at women who gave birth during a period of famine.And their children were like significantly more likely to become obese later because [00:40:00] basically their bodies were, and that has toSimone Collins: do more with caloric restriction.Malcolm Collins: Right? Right. The point I’m making here is their bodies. Transfer information about the environment that that baby is going to be born into, to the fetus, right?Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.If you are very stressed or you believe life is very hard, and there have been studies about this during like economic depressions and like the effects it has on babies this is not good for babies. It can cause like anxiety, it can cause depression in adulthood. It can cause sort of hoarding behavior.And this is all like natural and evolutionarily adaptive. Right. So it’s, it is not even something that I would like question when I see this in a study, I’m like, oh yeah, like, that makes sense. Right. You know? And so I think that it’s about using Tylenol where it’s effective. Sorry. Using, using Tylenol like.To, to, to some extent while understanding that you are trading one risk for another risk.Simone Collins: Yeah. Like do you want higher risk of neural tube defects or [00:41:00] do you want higher risk of autism? Yeah. You’re, you’re choosing a lesser evil and that that is the calculation to make, not, I’m just not gonna do this and be completely blind of the opportunity cost.Malcolm Collins: Yes. I think that’s really important.Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s, it’s a much, it’s a much more important way of looking at it or, or, or functionally of looking at it.Malcolm Collins: And I think it’s also, the other thing I take away at the end of this is. The other side literally hates us more than they love their own children. They are willing to, that isSimone Collins: disturbingMalcolm Collins: callously and casually put their children’s lives at risk because they have dehumanized the rights so much that if somebody on the right says something that was well known in the scientific community and largely accepted before this they just have to reactively be like, well, then it must be wrong.I, I almost feel like, I mean, it reminds me of the, the vasectomy van that was outside the DNC oh my god. You know, by Planned Parenthood. And I was like, if the right had sent a van, like, I wanna do that, I wanna get like the vasectomy van [00:42:00] sponsored by prenatal list.org. Right? We want Americans to have more children know that doesn’t mean you free vasectomies.Then they’d freak out and be saying, we need to ban vasectomies. You know, this is, this is just what you do. Right.Simone Collins: I suppose yeah, reverse psychology in the most simplistic way possible, and yet they fall for it. I, yeah,Malcolm Collins: I, I would, I would love, like if I had like a big foundation, like one of these mi or like,Simone Collins: or if you were funded, like Turning Points USAMalcolm Collins: Yeah.You would,Simone Collins: you would, you would ditch the, the paid for debate me bro sessions and just put out vasectomy trMalcolm Collins: trucks. I would literally, I mean literally send a truck. A vasectomy truck. Two the DNC and I have it very branded, like American Flag. Why, whySimone Collins: do it when they’re doing it and paying for it?Let them pay for it? Well, becauseMalcolm Collins: of the, the, the one I think it would, would do a good job of highlighting [00:43:00] for people who are open to hearing our message. Like the actual cost of not having kids and that we are not against dinks. You can be dink. That’s great. And then you can, you can put signs on it.Like, oh, you know, you talk to news teams, it goes, you know, back in the day we had to round these types of people up these days, they just marched right in our van. You know, it, I think it would highlight for people. The value of being able to reproduce and that when somebody is excited about taking that away from you, they are not a friend to people like you.Okay? Like that is why Planned Parenthood opened. The first place was to sterilize black communities like that was their stated objective. Okay? Yeah. It’s still so hard toSimone Collins: believe and yet.Malcolm Collins: There you go. 89% of them are in majority minority communities. That’s, that’s still I think the popul. I think it was like some crazy that the US black population would be 40% higher if Planned Parenthood never existed.And I don’t under, I mean, for right-leaning [00:44:00] people, I, I think that this is a much harder pill if you’re like your classic like nineties rightist instead of like the new right, that doesn’t have any racist in it at all, and you’re like, actually a racist. It’s like abortion or racism. Which 1:00 AM I for?You know, we, we saw one guy who wanted to fund Planned Parenthood for racist motivations. And he wanted to like start a big campaign around it. And I was like, I mean, you can try. But that, that’d be another fun thing to do if you want to end Planned Parenthood. Very, very easy. Be like start a campaign to fund Planned Parenthood for explicitly racist reasons.And I think really quickly that would do the news rounds. People would freak out. Planned Parenthood would not take your money. And then people would be like, oh yeah, abortion, when you’re targeting specific demographics is really. A horrifying thing. Not that abortion isn’t more generally a horrifying thing, but, you know, anyway, love you to DeSimone.So glad that we were able to welcome our kid into the world. Same. And anybody who, who wants to that’s a bunch of money [00:45:00] and wants to fund a vasectomy brand ban outside the DNC this next election cycle you let us know. And, and, and, and we’re gonna be like, we’re here to have a conversation.You don’t want to have kids. We don’t want you to have kids. Oh God. Love you Malcolm. Put a scorecard outside the van, okay? Okay. God hitting. End recording. Love you.Simone Collins: And set up. I learned something really interesting about I guess ultimate fighting and boxing. When Ultimate Fighting was introduced, it was seen as very savage and, I don’t know, inhuman because they were moved. Boxing gloves. This was bare knuckles fighting, and that was seen as, I don’t know, more violent, I guess.Yeah, but it actually isn’t more violent. And do you know why boxing gloves were actually introduced in the first place? I do not. They have a higher [00:46:00] knockout rate. They enable you to hit harder.Malcolm Collins: Oh. ‘Simone Collins: cause it doesn’t hurt your hand as much. Like, you know, the classic film trope where someone punches someone else and they’re like, ah.Because it hurts. AndMalcolm Collins: yeah. When you, my recent causing a concussion by, that is, that is crazy that that’s a, especially when,Simone Collins: When, when boxing gloves apparently get wet, it’s, they’re like, you’re just fighting with giant rocks on your hands. It’s, it’s so question. And so the reason why there is an economic reason to do this is with sports betting, knockout rates are really favorable.You want more knockouts because more people then have something to really, like, a clear thing to bet on is too easy to tap out if you’re just grappling or something like that. So it was, there was a commercial reason. For this one, for boxing gloves to be introduced and also for more, more violence. But then of course, there was also commercial re reason for the Ultimate Fighting Guide to be like, oh yeah, Barry Knuckles.It’s definitely more violent.Malcolm Collins: Fascinating. Yeah. All right. I will get started with this, by the way. What, [00:47:00] what, what’d you think of the, the comments today?Simone Collins: People enjoyed it. I mean, a lot of the, the, the biggest criticism was Asman Gold is not to the right. And yeah, he is a centrist, but these days, if you don’t tow the most extreme points at the left, then you are categorized as on the right.Malcolm Collins: I mean, even Russian right? Is, is, is, you know, JFK or whatever, who we’re gonna be talking about today, R-F-K-R-F-K, or you know. No, come on. RFK is like a, a, a lefty by previous definitions. Right. You know, yeah,Simone Collins: a very, yeah. Crunchy, crunchy lefty. Yeah, totally.Malcolm Collins: Even, even with controversies are left leaning, like, so the, the right, I mean, if you’re using that traditional definition of the right I think, I think MG GOLD is very sort of like the, the modern ID of the right.In terms of Yeah, and I thinkSimone Collins: a lot of people just haven’t recognized that the right is no longer about just pure conservatism, social conservatism and religious conservatism. It is about a heterodox alliance of people who want cultural autonomy. [00:48:00]Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Which is very, very different than we’re gonna force cultural, where the cultural conservative types.They’ve actually moved to the left, um mm-hmm. Because they wanna do things like ban porn, which requires VPN bans, which means you’re basically giving the government to control what anyone says or thinks. Yeah. And in that case, you end up with like extreme leftist positions. Like, we need to give the government and bureaucrats control of what I’m allowed to see and think.Yeah.And so I think that, yeah, it’s just different world that we’re living in now. We’ve changed through technology and social situations. I guess I’ll get started here.Oh yeah, we should probably also let people know. So we had a kid the kid is in the NICU still. There was, I forget the word, holes in his lungs due to aspirating in each lungs in each lung. Yeah.Simone Collins: Which is, is it’s, it’s another word way of saying collapsed lung.Malcolm Collins: And he’s probably gonna be okay.You know, obviously we’re, we’re praying and we’re hoping that things work out. He if you, if you wanted to see [00:49:00] like a full video of like the births and the hospital process and everything like that we put that on one of our picture on episodes. It’s not because we wanted toSimone Collins: ize that paid Substack episodeMalcolm Collins: or, or paid substack.It, it is not that like we were trying to hide that from our general audience. I just don’t think that the type of people who come for our. Usual talks are going to find that interesting. And so it would’ve hurt us in the algo. So that’s why we put it with paid content and that’s what often happens with the paid content.Yeah, I wouldSimone Collins: show y’all texts on our NICU panda cam, but he’s being fed right now, so I have to, but I have him on a constant screen. And that’s one thing that they don’t tell you about NICUs, that a lot of NICUs have a constant camera you can have on your baby. So even when you can’t be with them, you can still.Watch that. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Oh, and for those who don’t know, because you did mention that some people were like, oh, if I could pay for you guys, I would, well, we do have episode seven days a week. It’s just the weekend episodes you only get if you’re paid. I, I will note the weekend episodes are, are shorter and oftentimes on subjects that I think that like.[00:50:00]Yeah. Honestly, like when, when we’re doing our, our regular episodes, it’s a lot of stuff that I think will do well in the algorithm, like women, bad, Democrat, silly when it’s weekend episodes, it’s, it’s,Simone Collins: it’s listener requests that we agree are really interesting, but that we don’t, that we think we’d be punished for on YouTube.Mm-hmm. Basically. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: So it’s more like what we think is interesting and what I think our higher economic user base is gonna think is interesting.Simone Collins: So I, I like it. I love, I love the weekend episodes. But anyway, I like all episodes. Anyone who gives us the honor of their time these days is, I mean, that’s the most precious thing these days.It’s, it’s a huge honor, but the monetary support is really appreciated, so thank you.Speaker 13: Ben Bridge is working. Are you gonna break his legs? Soci.What? Oh my God. You just punched the Yes, I did. [00:51:00] I off, off, turn off. What?Cracked by the giant.You’re breaking my leg towards move. Shoes are not allowed on the couch. Octa’s correct. Titan a pot of.Okay. Walk through me and go This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Simone and Malcolm Collins explore the collapse of shared culture and how politics has emerged as the new entertainment. They discuss the balkanization of media, where bubble communities limit broad relatability and niche interests thrive. The episode highlights how politicians have become celebrities, influencing modern discourse. With data showing declines in traditional media audiences and the rise of influencers as news sources, the hosts argue that culture is fragmenting, leaving only a few topics for collective bonding.

The discussion tackles the controversial link between puberty blockers and declining IQ, delving into animal studies that show dramatic cognitive changes. Personal anecdotes add depth as the hosts explore the social and ethical implications of these findings. They examine both supporting and conflicting research, emphasizing the need for transparency around hormone treatment effects. The conversation also touches on personal reflections about gender transition and the implications for adults considering these medical decisions.

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they dive deep into the pitfalls of extreme manosphere ideology, the “wife guy” meme, and the real dynamics of modern relationships. This episode explores the breakdowns of high-profile marriages, the dangers of performative masculinity, and the importance of emotional control and partnership in marriage. With personal anecdotes, cultural analysis, and a touch of humor, Malcolm and Simone challenge toxic narratives and offer practical advice for building healthy, functional relationships. Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] the way in which women reduce you and all of your creative and adventurous impulses and render you to a headless quote unquote husband. The ideal husband has put aside in his ideals, all dangerous ideas. The meme term for this is the wife guy. I have seen many men who are already quite mediocre in spirit, debase themselves to a level of slavery for their wives and children. But the point here being is he sees this wholesome marriage and I think many people downstream of the manosphere and everything like that have come to see a wholesomeness, like a wholesome, sweet loving couple as, as a form of humiliation. They, they see it as humiliating to the man because it’s not what Andrew Tate sold them masculinity was.Would you like to know more?Malcolm Collins: Hello. I am excited to be here today. Today we are gonna be going over how some people are so red pilled, they cut themselves. And it is. A problem that I see [00:01:00] consistently within parts of the manosphere where individuals develop an idea of manhood and what it means to be a man, which is incompatible with tolerable women wanting to be married to you.Simone Collins: Tolerable. That’s the key point. Tolerable women,Malcolm Collins: right? And so, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll go out there and they’ll just be like, women are always like a drain on their husband and like, make their lives worse. And I’m like, like, clearly that’s not the case. Like you’ve, you’re an awesome wife. You, you do way more of both your share of the professional and housework.You you know, are pregnant with kid number five right now, which you do with a plum. You’re only worried when the kids might have some sort of health issue or anything. You, you know, cook meals with family like clearly, and people hear her talk. She doesn’t, she. You do nag me. I, I will say you do nag me.Not a lot more recently. But not in a way that’s like her trimesterSimone Collins: doesn’t yield great emotional control if we’re this year, yeah. I remember this fromMalcolm Collins: last time you were [00:02:00] this, this pregnant and she’s really sorry. Yeah. And it really only happens when she has genuine justification, like she’s doing far more of the workload on something than I am.Note here, , she just gave birth to our fifth kid who is Healthy Tex. , She is with Tex in the hospital yesterday. She gave birth to him, , by her fifth C-section. So very dangerous surgery. We’re very, , grateful that it all went well. , And I am at home playing with our oldest as she recovers in the hospital.So that’s how intense she is about this.Malcolm Collins: But the point I’m making here is like, clearly good women exist, right? The problem is, is that if I acted the way that many of these manosphere influencers told me to act, women like Simone would not want to marry me or be around me. And so when these men say all women. Who exists like a wall or whatever, all winner like that have, you know, these, these character traits.And I’m like, well, I don’t see that in the women that I’ve dated in the past or that [00:03:00] I’m married to. What they’re really saying is the way I act filters for women who act like this. And unfortunately, a lot of these ideas can come out of this, this wider community that we’re a part of. And lead to, we’re gonna go a bit into likeSteven Crowder’s marriage breakdown.We’re gonna go a bit into Laura Southern’s marriage breakdown. Oh boy. We’re, we’re gonna go a but we’re gonna go all at this from the framing device of an essay. By deep at left analysis, which is a extensively a left wing guy.But when you begin to hear this article, you will immediately be like, that sounds not leftist at all to me. So like culturally, it’s clear where this came from and I think it’s one of the best examples of this, where he literally argues that he’s gay for like manos fear reasons.Simone Collins: So he’s the political lesbian of men of, [00:04:00]Malcolm Collins: I guess, yes.Simone Collins: That’s crazy. Okay, we gotta get into this. ‘cause I didn’t, I don’t know. I, I figured that women would be political lesbians because in general women are more attracted to dominance versus submissions and care relatively to men, a lot less about primary and secondary sexual characteristics, whereas men are a lot more sensitive to that.So I just thought like, well, women are political lesbians because they can be. But, but,Malcolm Collins: but here, what you’ll see, and you’ll hear in what he’s saying is within like the Bronze Age pervert sort of a mindset or something like that. Mm-hmm. He’s signaling something to our community that you would understand is sort of like a, you know, gorilla punching his chest, being like, I, I so manly.I know words. I know how to say them. And it only works for signaling your status to other men. It repels women. And yet people misunderstand and think that this is actually the way they need to be acting or talking about women. Tra [00:05:00] women are materialists, but I also know if that he’s kind of right about stuff.Simone Collins: Well, you can be right and end up being a cupped Yes. Political gay man. But continue. So trad women are materialists in the lowest sense of the word. Their goal in life is to identify a worthy male and then browbeat him into submission psychologically abuse him, neuter him, and castrate him. This is a very practical thing to do and a very safe and produces an effective slave society, but is devoid of idealism and heroism.Malcolm Collins: Modern gaze are a radical extension of this feminine drive towards practical materialism. You see what I mean when I say he comes off as very right wing? Do, he really says he’s left wing again. What well sake about this, he’s attacking trad women here, right? Like he’s saying that trad women are materialists in the lowest sense of the word.Their goal is to identify a worthy male, then browbeat him into submission. And for many trad women. [00:06:00] Yeah. That’s kind of what they are looking for. They’re not looking for a man they can empower, but a man that they can, in a way, enslave.Simone Collins: Enslave. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: When I say trad women, he again, quoting him here. When I say trad women, I’m referring to Steven Crowder’s ex-wife, who claims that the highest duty of a man is to marry a woman and then do whatever she says.Ms. Crowder is a parody of the trad woman, but she is only saying aloud what many trad women secretly already believe. So what did she actually say? Because first, you know, I wanna get the, the actual information hereSimone Collins: from the horse’s mouth.Malcolm Collins: She posted on Twitter. The most alpha thing a man can do is marry and be faithful to a good woman for the entirety of his life and be willing to storm the greats of hell to stay married to her.This was in response to a video by conservative commentator Matt Walsh, discussing marriage as supernatural generated significant backlash and discussion on X. We as many users, interpreting it as promoting an overly sacrificial and one-sided view of men’s role in marriage, though it does [00:07:00] not, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.The, the point here being is she does appear to basically think that and a lot of people are aware of the Crowder and his wife breaking up, but I wanted to start talking about them to be like, this is the type of woman that a man who acts and presents like Crowder is able to, and keep in mind, Crowder is the height.Of what this type of man is, right? Like presumably he’s gonna have his pick of the litter in terms of, of, of women who will tolerate a man like this. So if you are the very best of what this community can achieve, your outcome, and, and keep in mind that the alternative understanding here is, is Steven Crowder’s is just not a good guy or good husband, which may be the case.We’ll get into that. But I think that many of his flaws as a partner came downstream of trying to emulate the philosophy of the red pill and [00:08:00] traditionalist version of what a male is. In a way that doesn’t work within a modern context. And it’s very important that we do not do that. Like our goal is not to signal to other people in the manosphere how tough and cool we are.Our goal is to get married to somebody who wants to improve our lives and works every day to improve our lives and has lots of kidsSimone Collins: more, more. Actually our goal first and foremost is to maximize something we believe has inherent value, and we choose to find a partner because we understand that if you find the right kind of partner and form the right kind of relationship, you will be more collectively effective at maximizing that thing or that collection of things that you value than you would on your own.Mm-hmm. It’s not even that your goal is to find a wife.Malcolm Collins: Yeah., And, and I’ll note here. We often say like, you’re, you’re often not going to end up in a place better than the advice you’re getting from somebody. So if somebody is a leading figure in like the larger, wider [00:09:00] manosphere scene and they are giving out advice and they can’t keep a marriage past their first two kids that advice has a high probability of leading you to a similar endpoint.Simone Collins: That’s fair. And even,Malcolm Collins: and even if you say it’s the wife’s fault, which we’ll get into analyzing how much of it, ‘cause I do think a large part of it is the wife’s fault. He still chose and vetted her as a wife. And the way that he’s acting and the advice he’s giving will lead you to have a wife like that. Like, that’s, that’s all of our responsibility before we got married.That’s, that’s what the dating phase is for. That’s what the engagement phase is for. People don’t become new people magically after, after that. I, I guess you can say that they tricked you the entire time, but often when I see these individuals, they haven’t been tricked. They were signaling that this is what they wanted.The couple separated in 2021 after Steven left their home for elective surgery in June and did not return.Now he says he did not return because he was working on his temper. He purchased a separate townhouse following the birth of their twins in August, 2021. So, when she, if [00:10:00] you’re buyingSimone Collins: a separate house to work on your temper, though, I don’t see, you know, this isn’t like. I’m gonna take a breather and work on myself for like a couple weeks.You’re buying a house?Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So while she was pregnant with the twins he basically abandoned her. And these were his first kids, right? So he’s not there for the. Pregnancy, which was incredibly complicated. In terms of the actually having the c-section, ‘cause she had a, an emergency C-section.Well,Simone Collins: even without an emergency c-section, pregnancy, the twins are tough and, and they’re very often born premature. It is not, it’s like the hard mode of both pregnancy, the newborn forMalcolm Collins: them as young kids, you know, he’s not in the area. He says, well, I don’t believe in divorce. You know, I never would’ve gotten divorced except she filed for divorce in December and he hired his divorce attorney in November.Now you can say he is doing this preemptively thinking that the divorce is going to happen. Mm-hmm. But it wasn’t when he knew that a divorce looked like it was coming down the tracks, he wasn’t all hands on deck. Let me go back to where she’s living because she has [00:11:00] multiple times asked me to come home and help with the twins and try to work something out.It’s, I’m gonna hire a divorce attorney. Right. So whatever was in his mind was his mindset on this. It led to, to bad outcomes.My actual read of what led to this is, is he had such a strong belief. Against divorce, like divorces just don’t happen, that he didn’t consider it a possibility as things were going off the rails in the relationship, and so he didn’t work to more quickly correct and address the way things were going off the rails.Because I think that if you had considered divorce a possibility and you just really didn’t want a divorce, the last thing you would do is when your wife is pregnant with twins, buy a house in a different state and move there. , You, especially if she was asking you not to do that. So, , and then this is what I’m talking about where I’m like, be careful of these sorts of mindsets.Like divorce isn’t a possibility because it can , , ironically lead to divorce.Malcolm Collins: [00:12:00] In leaked ring camera video from June 26th, 2021. He berates her at demanding that she perform her wifely duties. But the problem is, is his demands were totally reasonable, like medicating and walking dogs tasks that she claimed she feared were unsafe during pregnancy.Medicating dogs is not unsafe during pregnancy. Maybe walkingSimone Collins: dogs is if you’ve been ordered on bedrest and it doesn’t seem like he was very pregnant in her things. Plus, I, you saw, I’m sure you saw the footage. I saw the footage. Yeah, the, the famous Crowder ring cam footage. It looks, it’s bad. He’s just being a complete ass.I think the, the bigger problem for me is I completely lose respect for people when they just angrily berate people. He, he could have said the same things like coldly and with emotional control, and I wouldn’t have had a problem with it it’s when people lose emotional control. That I just completelyMalcolm Collins: like. Well, and I think especially, and this is one of these things where it’s like, can I take her word for it? She does appear to have been being a bee, but keep in mind he [00:13:00] filtered for this, like his presence filtered for a woman who was a bee in the way this woman was a bee.You know, he chose this based on his criteria of what a good woman is. The problem is that like a traditionalist criteria often lend themselves to finding individuals like this, right? But then also believing things like showing low emotional control is manly. So if we look at his work environment, for example multiple former employees, including at least five, who spoke anonymously, described a pattern of verbal abuse where Crowder would scream at staff and use derogatory language.Simone Collins: How do people rise in their careers when they behave? So unprofessionally, especially these days. Well, I think because his career allowed him to rise through a sort of online fame where this stuff could be cut out you know, apparently he would yell at people in meetings and stuff like that. Now,why would these people keep working for him?Just ‘cause they thought he was making a lot of money.Malcolm Collins: Often people need to support their families and that’s why, you know, because they’re getting [00:14:00] paid and, you know, but I, I note here that this is, if, if you wanna get like how inappropriate he was accused of repeatedly exposing his genitals to male members in a nonsexual, but harassing member matter such as walking like what in flashing staff as a joke.There, there was drug related stuff, which I don’t care. And then it’s like, oh, and he had this NDA thing that was really strict, where you could be sued a hundred thousand dollars. I don’t care. People have a right to have NDAs, but yelling at employees you just fire them. If they’re not doing a good job, you just let them go.Right? Like, I, I think that that for me is like a that somebody could think that that was a, nor like,Simone Collins: yeah, if you respect your employees so little that you’re berating them, then you’re not a good match. If you’re berating your employees, it’s clearly not working, you should hire a different employee.Same with a wife. If you have a wife who you’re berating, like, why did you marry them? It, it seems so odd to me.Malcolm Collins: Well, well, it’s not just that, but I, I just think that this is something that he thinks is a normal way [00:15:00] for a man to act in public. Right. Or, or with his loved ones. And you know, if, if you’re like, oh, Malcolm, like, surely you sometimes yell at employees like Bru one of the fans of the show who a lot of people know on like Discord and stuff like that.Bruno works for me on a project like you, you can ask him. I I do not I, I would, I, I can’t even imagine thinking it’s okay to yell at, at somebody who is working for me. And then when it comes to raising my voice was my wife. I would only do it if I had first communicated to her that something was dangerous for our shared goals and she was not listening or engaging with the information when it was communicated was out the emotional addition, right?Like you should be able to control your emotions as an adult. I, I’d also note here that for me as well, the whole thing about saying I wanted to work on a marriage he, he described a marriage ending in divorce at the deepest of personal failure. It’s like, well, if you, if you feel that way, right?Why [00:16:00] did you hire the lawyer instead of immediately going back and trying to fix things with her? Clearly she wanted to talk this out for a long period where you both left her and financially cut her off. Like you basically forced her hand in this. And I think that this is part of a breakdown that comes downstream of what we are being taught is normal in terms of how you source partners in a mano spheric culture.And I think that we also saw this with Lauren Southern. So, was Laura Southern, the relationship deteriorated into what Southern described as abusive and toxic. She reported verbal abuse such as being called worthless, empathetic, daily, worthless, empathetic daily being locked out of the house and being.Abandoned with her infant son for days. Sometimes in bad weather, that’s completely a non-issue if he had a job that took him out. But and being locked outta the house could have been an accident that she’s over doing. But being called worthless and pathetic by your husband [00:17:00] ever is a really big deal.Like, as a culture, you should know to feel shame about that. Like we should be building a culture where a man would be horrified about anyone ever finding out that he called his wife worthless. Empathetic. Yeah. ThatSimone Collins: sounds like Stanford prison experiment stuff. It doesn’t sound like what you would do to anyone who you wanna work with.Like if you’re trying to, to torture and demoralize a, a victim at a black ops site, probably. But this, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. Like, could, could this be some misinterpretation of like military basic training? Like I have to break you down in order to build you up. Like what is this coming from? Where is the logic behind this?Malcolm Collins: So I think within the type of manosphere content that was originally created by people like Andrew Tate this idea of being this growly, angry person became associated with masculinity that people began to confuse anger with [00:18:00] muscular.Simone Collins: Hmm.Malcolm Collins: And we’ll actually go into this because later in this piece that I’m gonna keep reading, the guy describes like what he doesn’t think masculinity is.And it is the wife guy who a lot of people online have been making fun of.Simone Collins: Who is this, like his username? The wife guy?Malcolm Collins: No wife guy is like a meme these days. I’ll put a picture on screen of what a wife guy looks like. It’s a husband who genuinely loves and appreciates his wife. It’s the guy who you know, and there’s lots of memes about this.Speaker: woke up one day. I’m a wife guy. A change from a playaways at the right time. You can never know how you grow in your life. Now all I talk about is how I love my wife. I can’t believe that I turned into a wife guy. Fries. Happy wife, happy life type . That’s a saying that I just came up with.A lot of y’all love your wives, but I love her the most. I’m currently working on an anniversary post.Malcolm Collins: Like, you know, the, the, the wife making demands that are [00:19:00] normal of wifes to make of their husband and the husband sweetly deciding to do it, right. Any subservience to your wife is often seen as a negative thing or any degree of capitulation or I even sort of say wholesomeness, like it’s, it’s, it’s being wholesomely, married.Is not masculine to these people. And, and is that not true? You, you look downstream of the Andrew Tate’s world is being in a, a genuinely wholesome marriage, right? Like where every day, I mean, how many I loves yous do you think you get per day? For me, ISimone Collins: 12 on average maybe?Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Probably 12,Simone Collins: 13. Something around conservatively speaking here.Malcolm Collins: Okay. How many like genuine mean? How often do I genuinely like meanly criticize you?Simone Collins: It’s been like two years since the last, soMalcolm Collins: not frequently. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me a wife guy because I’m not asserting dominance over you constantly. Mm. I think a [00:20:00] lot of this came downstream of this obsession was dominance.Whereas as the point of dominance then again though, like am I constantly trying to undermine you, is the leader of this family And it sounds like these women kind of are, but. You didn’t because you, when I was looking for you, and if you read our book, like the prag guided relationships, when you come outta that, you’re gonna find a wife like my wife.Because you understand that what you’re looking for is somebody who respects you and respects your shared vision, right? Who isn’t trying to, I think a lot of this bad behavior comes down from the man seeing his life goal is filling a role, IE the role of the man or the husband and the wife’s role in goal in life is supposed to be, to be the wife.You know, and if you see these as your individual roles in life, instead of making some wider change in society, raising good kids, everything like that, it’s much more easy for these sorts of incurable differences to arise and also you to not feel like a man when you subvert this man-like action for something potentially bigger.Simone Collins: Hmm. So to [00:21:00] continue with the piece here, feminism by contrast, is a relief from slavery because the feminist with her short blue hair and unshaved armpits is less seductive, less deceptive, less effective, and entrapping. In ensnaring men feminists upon inspection are porn addicts with the desire to be choked and spanked and abused in all sorts of violent ways.Malcolm Collins: This is degrading and unpleasant, but it is morally superior to the trad woman. There is a beautiful point. What if feminist are super anti-porn? I mean, I guess tra women are too, but where is he getting this? He’s talking about urban monoculture women. Not, oh,Simone Collins: just like mainstream romance, novel readers, book talkers,Malcolm Collins: green, blue hair, you know, polyamorous, et cetera.But I, I, I. There is a biblical story where in a Jewish woman, I think her name is Ru Seduces, one of the many inner enemies of Israel. Notice I wouldn’t be getting my Bible this wrong. I’m quoting the guy here. While he is sleeping, he cuts off his head or drives a nail in it. I may be confusing two different stories here, but the Bible [00:22:00] is full of repetition, but the story is metaphorical for the way in which women will cut the head off your penis physically.Then they will reduce you and all of your creative and adventurous impulses and render you to a headless quote unquote husband. The ideal husband has put aside in his ideals, all dangerous ideas. The meme term for this is the wife guy. I have seen many men who are already quite mediocre in spirit, debase themselves to a level of slavery for their wives and children.Why sour grapes Much? Yeah. Why don’t you Google wife guy so you can get an idea of what’s being talked about here. .Simone Collins: Oh, so just a husband is there for his wife andMalcolm Collins: yeah, sort of unabashed enthusiasm for your wife and marriage and willingness to compromise and, and a desire to please her and, and be a, a good guy. God forbid. The ideology of of the wife guy is justified with the theology of Traditionalism, which states that God wants media, Christ to reproduce as much as [00:23:00] physically possible.This is a gross and disgusting ideology, and its adherence deserve only humiliation, which they gladly receive. Washing and sucking toes, making themselves into fools, speaking in tongues, being fat, engaging in hysteria. Conspiracy theories about globalists having sex with 17-year-old prostitutes. Well, I mean, that’s not a conspiracy theory.That’s. Something that, like on the record happened maybe we haven’t found everyone eng engaged with it, but it definitely happened. But I guess the point he’s making here is why should you even care? It’s 17-year-old prostitutes humility and humiliation for these people. Wait, your point is, asSimone Collins: long as they’re being paid fairlyMalcolm Collins: well, he’s just like, they’re close to the age of consent and, you know, people really, I, I don’t, I can understand how somebody could just be like, whatever, you know?It might not be my opinion, but I, I can understand, you know, where somebody is coming from. But the point here being is he sees this wholesome marriage and I think many people downstream of the manosphere and everything like that have come to see a [00:24:00] wholesomeness, like a wholesome, sweet loving couple as, as a form of humiliation. They, they see it as humiliating to the man because it’s not what Andrew Tate sold them masculinity was. It’s not, well, this sounds soSimone Collins: similar to the feminist stuff we’ve read about marriage too, that it’s humiliating and degrading that, you know, I I this could easily have just been word swapped.Malcolm Collins: Yes. For for being a woman. Yes. Then skipping part of the story here, humiliation before God is recognition that in any place at any time, you might become possessed and a slave to a higher power, which will compel you towards acts of insanity. For some higher purpose beyond comprehension, the most humble are the most open to salvation.And these men are heroes. But the TRAs has reduced humility to the nine to five job changing diapers, all sorts of other petty humiliations, the TRAs worships, biological children and the wife, and most absurdly vain repetitions. And this is the [00:25:00] thing, I think it’s the type of guy who doesn’t wanna change his kid’s diapers.Who sees this as, as making him no longer a man. Right. Like, well, and also like, if you really don’t wanna change diapers, you don’t have to. I mean, when’s the last time you’ve changed a diaper? It’s been years at this point. Honestly, it was only early with our first kid when we were sharing all of our roles.And now you always do the young kids and I do the older kids. Yeah. Like there are ways, if you have concerns about specific elements of marriage or if you’re like, you know, I really don’t wanna be this kind of husband and I really don’t wanna, you know, when’s the last time you sucked my toes? Malcolm?Simone Collins: Like, neither of us would consent to that at all. Like, I don’t know, I just like the, these things that he perceives as normal. But I think that they see it as a package. Yeah. They see the wholesome doubling husband on their wife. He must also suck her toes. He must also change the diapers. He must also, you know, they, they, they, they, they, because [00:26:00] they see life as not about in states, but about roles that you’re serving.Malcolm Collins: Oh. They see some parts of a trope that they can apply to me and assume that I must be optimizing for the entire trope instead of just focusing on a higher goal. Which is, you know, obviously the advancement of human society and, and raising kids who can contribute to that and expand my genetic line.But she is reframing as unmasculine, having and caring for babies. And, and it is true was in Andrew Tate world, baby care is deeply unmasculine, right? But it’s what the genetically successful people end up doing. I can actuallySimone Collins: see Andrew and Tristan. Really getting stoked to play with toddler or so.Like crawl on or Yeah. I could see them secretlyMalcolm Collins: being pretty sweet and not wanting wrestling.Simone Collins: Yeah. I think I, I could see them as being really sweet dads, but like, they would never let anyone know.Malcolm Collins: Well, and that’s, that’s part of the point, right? Yeah. Like they don’t wanna and then skipping a bit [00:27:00] here the majority of people have always been lowly and evil.And so marriage has always had this humiliating, ludicrous quality for them. But the masses are excluded from good history. And so when we learn of the Greeks and the Romans and the. R vs. And even the Israelites, we learn of marriages of a different quality. When we read about these ancient people, we see marriages, which did not inhibit the men who entered from into them, but inspired them to great deeds.Specifically the Moha. Bharata demonstrates the way in which wives were one through contest, the s Marva. And in the Rahma, Rama competes a tour of duty, slaying the forest dwellers before he marries in the Odyssey. The attempts to court the wife of Odysseus all involve contestants and competitors, and Odysseus reclaims his throne by slaying all the suitors, the aristocratic form of marriage.He didn’tSimone Collins: have to, I mean,Malcolm Collins: I mean, they thought he was dead, that that was being kind of Yeah. Truly on their part, but [00:28:00] it, it, it works. Okay. That’s morality of the time period. Somebody saying, on your wife, you gotta handle it, right? I mean, yeah.Simone Collins: Yeah. Let off some steam too. Why not?Malcolm Collins: The aristocratic form of marriage involves contests.There can be no marriage without it. The traditionalist concept of quote unquote marriage at 18 preceding any great deed or life risking, is a utilitarian, pragmatic, and mediocre inversion of form in the Aris. So I, I find that very interesting that he’s like, well, we don’t fight for marriage enough anymore.Which I don’t dis I, I disagree with pretty strongly. I think finding a, a wife today is much harder than it was to find a wife in ancient Greece. I, I think that or, or ancient Israel or, or pretty much any other time in human history. Well, yeah, because alsoSimone Collins: in the past, as people in our comments have pointed out like the average number of even potential partners, you know, people of the opposite sex that were around your age, maybe there were four, and, and, and you typically married someone who like lived within four miles of you, and these weren’t.Dense [00:29:00] populations. These weren’t large. Well, I mean, findingMalcolm Collins: a wife in today’s world is difficult. Like, like it’s, it’s a, and today it’s an needle and a halfSimone Collins: situation. It’s a mess.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You’re not, you’re not going out and fighting a war. You’re having to go out and date some of the most d depraved humans that have ever existed on earth.Simone Collins: Yeah. One person, when we talked about the rise of marriage pointed out that maybe, maybe what’s going on is people have found out that dating culture today has become so aversive. Now marriage just seems so much better.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Make dating so bad. Marriages is better anyway. Yeah. So in the aristocratic form of marriage, the woman is judge of the contest.Alternatively, she’s a victim of kidnapping, which itself is a ritualized context in which the noble man steals her away in his chariot, which is then chased by the police. And if he escapes, the woman is rightfully his. This is called the Nia, sacred among the tic people, but later demonized by the Dian priests.Even if we see elements of contest in [00:30:00] modern society, what follows is a deviation. The ancient marriage of Arjun and Odyssey demonstrate a disregard of any norm of cohabitation. The idea that a husband and wife should share a bedroom is absent. The idea that they should share a house or even a country is neglected.The purpose of a wife is to be impregnated and to raise children, which I agree you, you can do this today. You know, we don’t share, my wife and I don’t share a room or a bed. Her job is having kids. She has a kid a year, like she’s doing it. Okay. Like these women exist, you’re just not finding or making them.Right. Well, that’s the pointSimone Collins: you made at the very beginning. You know, they’re not going to find the types of women they actually want.Malcolm Collins: Yes. The, the way that they have constructed themselves would be repellent to a woman like you. Mm-hmm. You know, if a Steven Crowder like approached you on a dating app or something, would you date him?Like would you even.Simone Collins: No, and I, I dated people [00:31:00] who talked about being felons very openlyMalcolm Collins: there. What would be the, what would be the red flag that you’d be like, no, I’m not gonna date this traditionalist conservative. Like what?Simone Collins: A a a lack of demonstration of intellectual engagement that comes from a place of not respecting me intellectually, plus anyone who were, were to berate me or belittle me.Malcolm Collins: But he, he goes out to public campuses and debates people, like clearly he’s an intellectual. Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, we’ve met many people who, for whatever reason, and this includes some of the smartest people in the world who I don’t know what it is they can even have female coworkers that they, you know, respect intellectually and work with actively.Simone Collins: But then as soon as they are romantically involved with someone, or they classify them as like, this woman I’m dating, suddenly they become this completely different class of person who’s only good for, [00:32:00] you know, having kids and, and being like, figureMalcolm Collins: Oh yes. And it really messes up the person who we’re thinking of their life is completely effed up because of this.Yeah. ‘cause they’ve, they seem to be unable to genuinely respect somebody who they are having sex with. Yeah. Like asSimone Collins: soon as it’s, it’s, you know, like the, the heart emojis there, the Facebook official, like whatever it is. Like, it just, I don’t know. And, and so I, I think, you know, yes, I agree that, that Crowder is capable of intellectually engaging with people, I’m sure of all backgrounds and sexes and genders.But I, I think there are just some men who think.Malcolm Collins: I just don think the tra framing works. Like I do not think that that that quality women, well, and I don’t even thinkSimone Collins: it’s tra right? I mean, like we know what, what historically has happened in most arrangements that are marriage adjacent, which is you have people forming long-term, logistical and economic family bonds.[00:33:00]To survive because it, it increases their odds of making it to old age and having lots of kids and being safe and not dying or starving.Malcolm Collins: Right. But the, the point here I’m making is, I think the thing that turns off women like you, and I think many people in the red pill need to be like diaspora, need to be aware of this.Is, is is people may look at me and they’re like, you look soy or something like that. And what they, they, they often mean is, I’m not buying into this over trad framing of myself. And I think that what the trad man wants, unfortunately they also filter themselves out of, because the type of woman that wants to like intellectually support and, and help you, rather than be this kept trad dove.Simone Collins: Here’s how I would put it. Instead, they are marketing as though they’re selling to Grindr. When they need to be selling to Bumble. They are, they, they think that they need to aesthetically for, if we’re talking about the aesthetic angle of it right [00:34:00] now, they’re doing a better job of appealing to gay men per this like red pill, masculine aesthetic than they are at appealing to women.Malcolm Collins: Well, I are, look at this guy, this gay guy right here who’s like, I love this aesthetic.Simone Collins: I mean, ‘cause it’s, it’s a great gay aesthetic. And I mean it’s, it’s, I, I can appreciate it from a technical execution standpoint, but I appreciate the same way that I appreciate excellent drag queen execution, if that makes sense.Like, I don’t wanna bang it. And when you look at fan fiction and what tons of women online obsess over, it’s typically not the same body type that you see selling really well to gay men. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah,Malcolm Collins: it’s true.Well, and so to, to keep going here, the closest approximation to this idea today would be for a noble man to impregnate a woman, leave her and pay child support for 18 years with occasional [00:35:00] visitations.This is the most aristocratic form of child rearing, not the domesticity imagined by the Travis. There is nothing noble about changing diapers. No amount of shaming or hysterics or threats of hell fire will change this. And, and that’s, that’s within his framing of, of nobility, like within his framing of masculinity, right?HisSimone Collins: framing of trashy ability. Men weren’t seen as respectable when they had b*****d children who they were paying for.Malcolm Collins: Right. But what he’s saying is you used to just like, have kids and then like you’d have staff to raise the kids or something like that. I, I cut out, I didn’t wanna go too far into this, but,Simone Collins: oh, okay.So he was implying there was marriage involved there.Malcolm Collins: Something like that. I don’t know. Not that part really. I mean, look, look, he’s basically saying you cannot fit this image of masculinity I have while you are married and raising children in a healthy relationship.Simone Collins: Hmm.Malcolm Collins: And I think that he’s saying it’s so clear cut here that you can maybe be shaken up enough to see what he, he means by this.If, if you [00:36:00] are one of these people who bought into this and you’re like, oh, here, somebody’s just coming out and saying it. If we want to be masculine in this trads way that we’re being masculine the, the, the real maxing of that comes from not marrying at all and then just being gay.Simone Collins: Yeah. It, it sounds like per this formula, if we’re gonna optimize, donate a ton of sperm, which you basically have to lie to do and never marry women.Malcolm Collins: Yeah.. Having thoroughly attacked the TRA vision of matrimony, I would like to go be good to also discuss the problems of modern gay and contrasted with the ancient Greeks.Modern gays are weak, skinny, fat, obese, materialistic, fashionable, acne ridden, and diseased skinny fat. I’m sorry, have you, not all, not all. Not all, but most. Has he been to Provincetown recently or where is he looking? He goes, I went to a gay pride event in San [00:37:00] Francisco and all the men were fat, weak, disgusting, and old.There were no handsome tweak bodybuilders. There was nothing erotic at all. It was like walking into the YMCA locker room was a bunch of naked hairy boomers. Yeah,Simone Collins: that’s ‘cause no one goes to pride event anymoreMalcolm Collins: themselves before his body degenerates into that state. Now note here he’s arguing here that he’s a closeted gay man.He’s not an openly gay man, but the the point here being is Simone, I think you’re remembering gay culture from when we were younger. I actually think it has deteriorated significantly, especially in the, the core center of the urban monoculture. ‘cause you could already see stuff like this. It’s a false, I disagree.Simone Collins: Are gay friends who I follow on Instagram look, but they’re conservative gays? Are they? I’m pretty sure they are. Maybe they’re traditional Catholics. Oh, I’m, I’m actually referring to other gay friends. Oh yeah. And they’re all, all of them are, are hot and fit. So. I don’t know what to say.Malcolm Collins: I think a lot of what we call normal gaze or hot and fit.Then to skip a [00:38:00] bit more here. Most tram and modern gay are forms of slavery in the first case, tram enslaved society to the role of the mediocre, so that the median rules over the excellent adventurers are put to halt and domesticity rules overall. In some cases, it is possible to have some degree of tram, so long as exceptions are made.Spain during the period of the conquistadors had somewhat normative trads among the lower cast, but also dedicated billions of dollars to the adventures of single men. Modern gay is a more severe form of slavery. Since there is no escape from the budgie, one cannot flee across the ocean and lay waste to foreign shores.Budgie will come to you bearing human rights and no, he had a screed here about how buttigieg his marriage was too wholesome because he’s gay, married, and has kids. Oh, how dare he. He doesn’t like this. He sees this as unmasculine.Simone Collins: So any, any form of, of marriage and having kids, any form of biological success is, [00:39:00]Malcolm Collins: yeah.Well, and this is why I, I, I bring this up for our audience is to try to shake them out of this if they have bought into this version of tram. So that they don’t get trapped in one of these marriages where their partner doesn’t respect them. And instead of just trying to be the most housewife of housewife or the most husbandy of husband rather than work with them towards a common goal.And then finally here, he says dot, dot, dot, because I took out a section here. This is still difficult since the mig tau and the red pillar is lie, and it is easiest to get married between 23 and 26, not at 33. This is very true. This is because most women prefer a partner was in two years of their age.And by the age of 33, the dating market shrinks considerably to single mothers heartbeats, antisocial hags, and women who are forever who for whatever reason failed to attract and hold a mate during their prime years, 23 to 26 to date a younger woman. This requires overcoming certain hurdles. The kind of women who date older men are distinct from other women.Whether this is good or bad, [00:40:00] I will not say here but young women, so I actually agree a lot with this advice. You need to marry young, young, young, young, young. It, I know it’s difficult, but the, the, the choice pieces women get taken off the market early. I mean, we started dating how old I, it was on the older end for me.Simone Collins: I was 24 and you were 25.Malcolm Collins: So we were you know, he said, you need to get married between 23 and 26. We were right there at the, the, the age range that he’s talking about, right? Like, this is when you have to lock it down. And if you look at my brother, it was when he was a freshman in college, right?Like, in fact, I think about everyone in my family who’s married almost all of them started dating their partner before the end of college. It is very, very, very difficult to find somebody after that as a man, right? Like I understand the market dynamics tilt in your favor and you can get more random sex.If you’re a three, 3-year-old, that’s fine. Yes, you can get more random sex but it is not with women you want to settle down with. And people just [00:41:00] don’t think well, andSimone Collins: you don’t want to child. I, I think that’s no, but like people seem to miss thatMalcolm Collins: if you are a woman and you. Want kids, you’re gonna try to find a guy who will give you those kids, like as soon as you, you get on the market, right?Because they’re dealing with a, a higher ticking clock and everything like that. Like if you are open to this sort of agreement, the types of things that you need to agree to, to get married as a woman some guy will have asked, Hey, are you okay with these concessions if you marry me before you are like 25.Simone Collins: That’s what I wonder about. With Crowder though, like in terms of going back to the beginning and, and how his relationship fell apart, I feel like this is mostly downstream of them have v having very different expectations about what marriage was gonna be like and they just didn’t Yeah, I think they were both like, yeah, we’re rad conservatives, we know how to do marriage, right?Divorce, under no circumstances, we’re gonna have a big family. And then because they didn’t [00:42:00] hammer out their terms, they didn’t have a marriage contract, they didn’t have agreements here. She is heavily pregnant with twins and believes that someone else should be, you know, feeding and walking the dogs, and that she should just be feet up in bed, relaxing.And he believes that she should be feeding and walking the dogs and cooking dinner. And neither of those expectations and isolation is a bad thing. I mean, they’re valid expectations. The problem is they didn’t discuss them ahead of time. Yeah. And then they just got mad at each other for not reading each other’s mind and knowing that that’s, you know, how they came in.So, yeah. Well, and then, and then he responds to her expectations with yelling and that Yeah. Like, that’s gonna fix anything down. The communication, because now you’re communicating with emotion rather than logic. Mm-hmm.Malcolm Collins: And I think a lot of this comes down to, yeah, not having a marriage contract. You know, the Pregnant Guide for Relationships Read it.It’s one of our first books you can buy for like a dollar. The ebook version, it’s not expensive. So check it out. Also got audio books for that. But to finalize here, here he is giving young women advice, [00:43:00] but for young women, I will advise this. Do not seek older men. Consider Mark Zuckerberg’s wife.She’s nothing special. If she had waited very long, she would not have had the opportunity to marry a billionaire. She was. Too much complication. She became a doctor and she went to Harvard. Nothing special, but she recognized his greatness when they were both young and she used her abilities to ensnare him.And now they are secure. Buy your bananas while they’re green. Not when they are ripe. I have seen this with too many women as well, right? Like I, I, we have our younger female audience members marry young as well. You guys need to marry younger. And this is the advice I’ll be giving our kids. And I think all of us who are watching this and have kids, the advice and expectation should be, you should probably know who you’re gonna marry by 23.Like that’s, that’s the window of when you need to start panicking. If you, if you hit 23 and you don’t know who you’re gonna marry, you have seriously effed something up. And a lot of our fans can be like, well, I’m older. What, what advice do you have for me? And I’m [00:44:00] like, well, this isn’t for you. A lot of our audiences like married and has, we still try, still try.I try. Yeah. Obviously try. All you can do is try. But I, I mean, I see if, if you’re like, well, I’m a, you know, 25-year-old guy and I don’t need to, I, I can wait until no.Simone Collins: Oh yeah, no, that’s, that’s nonsense. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: So, because then we hear, we hear some of our, you know, if, if, if you, if you plan to be married, it’s okay to not be married and not have kids.Like that’s fine, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maybe you’re just not meant to be part of the human race going forwards. Right? Like that’s, that’s a choice that we all get to make. I’m not saying you have to do this, but I’m saying don’t say I’m going to do this while taking actions that are out of line with what somebody would be doing if they were actually going to do this.Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s fair. And I I have to say, I like in part, I read what he’s saying here and I’m like, you have been so incepted by this, that. [00:45:00] You have defined a good life, not as raising the next generation, but as filling a iteration of masculinity. But you’re not wrong to do it that way within the culture of the male internet right now.Malcolm Collins: Like I can see how you came to these cultural norms and thought that they were good’s preaching a logical conclusion. It’s just very myopic. Yeah. And his advice is also not bad for people who aren’t him. He’s almost like, I missed the window here. Right? So this is my advice for people who missed the window, but if you didn’t miss the window here’s my advice for you, Mary Young, and be very disciplined in how you choose your partner.Totally. Marriage advice I’d give here, by the way, for, for choosing someone you can know who you’re going to, like if some, you, you should, you date. The purpose of dating is vetting whether or not you want to be married to the individual. Right. Have kids with them. Spend your life with them. That doesn’t take five years to [00:46:00] do.That takes a few months to six months to do. If someone’s been dating you for like, more than I’d say a year and they’re unwilling to commit to an engagement I would say that they’re not serious about it. And there’s a lot of reasons why somebody might be.Simone Collins: Yeah. I feel like six months, if, if you’re looking to get married and you’re with someone at the six month mark, if you are not either, okay, I’m gonna break up with you now or we’re getting engaged, something is, is deeply wrong,Malcolm Collins: deeply wrong.The only caveat I would make on this is if you are very youngSimone Collins: oh yeah. If you’re like maybe 17.Malcolm Collins: So my brother and his wife, he met her first day, freshman year of college. And they didn’t propose until. I wanna say sophomore or junior year? No,Simone Collins: no, no, no. It was, it was their senior year, I think, because their parents were in town for graduation.Malcolm Collins: Oh, was it senior year? So four years. Yeah. But that’s, I’m pretty sure [00:47:00] if, okay. If you’ve been doing, no, I feel like that’s the, that I would beSimone Collins: proud if our kids did that in the college way of like, we’re not, you know, we’re gonna wait until graduation. I’m okay with that. ‘cause people do grow a lot in college.There is however, a benefit to having kids while still at uni. So, yeah, either way, you know, but I don’t think. You know, they, they still were committed to each other so early, they were seen as so precocious compared to other kids and people who did get married younger than when they got married. Mm-hmm.People we know have told us just how socially difficult it was for them. It was basically social suicide. People acted like they were crazy, people stopped talking with them. I think an underrated thing that we don’t really talk about is, okay, we, we can recommend this until the cows come, come home.But what these people are facing is still a huge amount of social prejudice when they do the right thing. So here’s this guy saying, oh, get married young, and you know, all these people and, and we are saying this, that it’s a really [00:48:00] good thing to do. This doesn’t change the fact that if someone does that today, they are going to be socially punished.Malcolm Collins: I think that’s changing. We’ll see, I think trad iss coming back, but real trad, not this like, you know, signaling sort of trad, but a wholesome trad, I guess I’d call it. Instead of grizzly trad grizzly trad. They act likeSimone Collins: performative anger and masculinity, trad,Malcolm Collins: performative masculinity, trad versus, you know, dad maxing.Simone Collins: Okay, I could see that. Yeah. There, there’s a, yeah, I guess just a, a return to functional marriage, you could say. I wouldn’t even call it trad. I just would call it a return to functional marriage. ‘cause that’s what it is. It is people marrying the way that people have traditionally married. But I feel like the word traditional or rad has just become so corrupted by aesthetics and performative gestures that aren’t even [00:49:00] traditional, that we can’t use it anymore.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I have enjoyed talking to you. What’s for di? We’re gonna reheat the endang tonight.Simone Collins: Yes, but I’m not gonna put garlic on it tonight ‘cause we have meetings tomorrow. So insteadMalcolm Collins: oh God put so much garlic on my food the other day and I was like, I’m really sorry I had it in my thoughts.Well, at least I’m not gonna be seeing anyone anytime soon ‘cause I Yeah, but you’re not.All right, well, I’m gonna do some rendering with I guess the, the, the bread stuff that you made yesterday. Mm-hmm. And that should be it for me.Simone Collins: Yeah. And I can toast it. I’ll just toast it with butter and some like kosher salt for texture. Sound good?Malcolm Collins: Sure.Simone Collins: Or just plain. Do you want it just plain,Malcolm Collins: plain rendering is a very flavorful dish.That’s true. And you don’t, that’s true. Need to put flavor on something if it’s being used as a,Simone Collins: a, an absorbent sponge of rendering ness. Right. Yeah. Then we’re on, I’ll be so much Malcolm, and I’m, [00:50:00] I’m really grateful to you for.Malcolm Collins: Comes downstream of not understanding normative male behavior. Like at any moment where he yelled at somebody, he should have felt humiliated at himself for ever doing that. Like, if I lost my temper in that way, I would punish myself severely. And I don’t think that he was taught to do that.Simone Collins: Well, it also as, as someone who listens to this podcast had pointed out before, and I think it’s just so well put when a man gets to a point where he is yelling or otherwise pulling rank by like maintaining frame and exerting that dominance, he’s already lost, like dominance is, is exerted through being the person that people respect and turn to for leadership and direction.Yeah. And if people aren’t doing that, like if you have to yell at people to get them to do that, it’s because you’re not dominant. Yeah. It’s because like this, this [00:51:00] just speaks to this immense amount of insecurity. And that is the biggest issue with performative masculinity is that it belies this intense insecurity when that masculinity is expressed in through anything.But security, confidence, strong leadership and foresight, plus immense amounts of emotional control, which is why I really do love that stoke philosophy is pervasive in the manosphere that people really admire figures like Marcus Aurelius, who was all about emotional control. Yeah. Who was all about perspective.I mean, that is natural dominance. It, it’s odd to me that this performative masculinity and deep insecurity is caught on as much as it has. ‘cause I feel like people can kind of. Smell that like I’m sure you had teachers when you were in school who would lose their minds, you know, they’d lose their composure and they’d start yelling at the class and berating them and nagging them, and [00:52:00] you didn’t respect those teachers.And then there were the teachers who like with a quiet sentence, got everyone to snap into place.Malcolm Collins: Yeah.Simone Collins: This is no different. So yeah, it’s, this is just so strange to me. But yeah, I, I love that you’re pointing this out and I, I just also find it so interesting thatlike the, the most supposedly masculine people are, like you’re saying, just getting cocked, never having kids, and ultimately removing themselves from the gene pool. It’s, it’s so, it’s so bizarre. So, but that irony is fun and delicious. So thank you for sharing this with me.Malcolm Collins: Thank you so much. By the way, we should leave earlier than three hours and 30 minutes.Something could go wrong on our journey.Simone Collins: Okay.Malcolm Collins: I mean, it, it takes three hours and 30 minutes on a regular drive over. I would add at least an extra hour in there.Simone Collins: Okay. And I don’t know, we just like get lunch or something if we get there early.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If [00:53:00] something goes wrong, we just get lunch or something.I like, we get there early, it’s everything goes right. But I have a feeling that, you know, you, you want a, a much safer window.Simone Collins: Okay.No, this is an episode we recorded a while ago because my wife just gave birth yesterday. So obviously we’re not recording episodes right now. Uh, but back when we recorded this, we couldn’t tell you guys, but now we can is what we’re talking about here is a, a talk that we did at the White House, , on fertility rates.I.Malcolm Collins: And we will you’ll get the slide deck done tonight.Simone Collins: Yep. After I finish the kids’ dinner, when I have them playing downstairs, I’ll just bring down my laptop and work on itMalcolm Collins: and we’ll do some printouts tomorrow.Simone Collins: We’re gonna, I thought we were gonna just email them the PDFs.Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, we’re gonna need something, I guess you can do it from your phone that we can practice copying from in the car till we memorize the speech.Simone Collins: Yeah. Yes, that’s, that’s the plan. And, and the one thing that I am adding to the deck at the end is just a slightly more structured overview of our general recommendations because [00:54:00] all you really put in there was like propaganda when actually we had like a lot more in terms of our policy suggestions.I mean, you put in propaganda and work from home and that was pretty much it. Whereas I feel like that should be a little more fleshed out. So that’s the only thing I’m adding just a heads up on that. And then I’m, I’m presumably gonna deliver more of that because it’s,Malcolm Collins: well make sure that what you add mm-hmm does not contradict what we wrote in the speech.‘cause we say things like, you know, cash handouts and stuff like that don’t work. And so if you’re, yeah,Simone Collins: none of our executive orders had to do with that. Okay. Yeah. Don’t worry.Malcolm Collins: Alright. Love you.Simone Collins: I love you too. You’re pretty.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he is just sitting back on his head like this, of course, chilling. And I was like, Hey, you wanna go to the station? To, he’s very adamant, no,Simone Collins: no,Malcolm Collins: I want to stay here. So I got him some milk. And he is, he is having a chill day because he was terrified about having his blood drawn.Simone Collins: Well, saying when he was getting his blood drawn.[00:55:00]Malcolm Collins: He was, he was, at first he was screaming like, I’m scared. I don’t want you to do that. Please don’t do that. And he’s like, and then when he was actually gonna get giant screamed, please somebody help me because you know, dad’s there holding him in place, you know. Oh God. Of course I’m traumatizing him, the doctors, but here’s what we need to tell him.Okay. ‘cause that’s what I’ve been telling him. What you need to tell him, it’s because he’s too small, he’s not eating enough. Which is true. That is why you got the blood drawn. That is exactly to terrify him into not finishing his dinner. You know? Well, you’re gonna have a good, get your blood drawn again if you don’t eat your dinner.Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Good. We can use this fear. This will, this,Malcolm Collins: this trauma that he went through today, this traumatic experience we will use to get him to eat. Amazing because we’re such desperately okay parents, that’s what he needs. He needs toSimone Collins: eat food That, yeah, that plus 10 hours a week of a BA therapy that seems [00:56:00] entirely oriented around him eating.We also need to work on some basic safety stuff. Like, hey, maybe don’t try to dismantle the toilet in the middle of the night. Please. Screaming.Malcolm Collins: Ah, my dad, I’m scared.Simone Collins: Oh God. Like, yeah buddy, you should be scared. You, you should, why did you, how did he even get it? Get the top of the toilet refill thing off.It’s heavy.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that’s what made him scared because it’s also chained in place so he can’t take it all the way off. Keila certainly would’ve broke it if it wasn’t chained in place. So kids are so easy. Having little raccoons in your house every day. Simone was saying we were walking through like their room at night.It feels like they intentionally mess it up every night. Like, yeah, because when we comeSimone Collins: down, like all of the couch cushions have been thrown off the couch. [00:57:00] The, the ladders to their bunk beds on the floor. It’s like they get up in the morning and they’re like, oh gosh, I have so much to do. I have to throw everything on the ground.I have to, you know, take every book off the bookshelf and fling it across the room and, and like, I’ve watched them do it. This isn’t like kids who are having a tantrum or something. Yeah, they’re just like in a very busy, productive seeming way, you know, like, hi hoe, hi hoe. Like little, yeah, little dwarfs just going to the mines.Creating their mess, theMalcolm Collins: bookshelf to get new, new things to throw around the room. Uhhuh.Simone Collins: Yeah. You gotta march back to the thing and you know, whatever bucket or bookshelf is present and you have to take the thing and then you have to take it as far away from that proper storage place as possible.What is wrong with them? And then of course, if they find anything that they can break or disassemble, they will also do that. Like that antique doorbell that you wanna keep for whatever reason. Torsten was, oh, myMalcolm Collins: [00:58:00] favorite is when one of them comes to me, like Torsten is the one who does this most frequently.And he’ll like, walk to me from another room with a handful of screws and he’ll be like, look at these, you know, he’ll call them golden screws if they’re like copper. The golden screwsSimone Collins: from that. Yeah. That one placeMalcolm Collins: he’s like. I’m like where did you get these from? And he’s like, they were in the chair.And I’m like, the, that was hard to build. They were in the table. You know, just, it’s like toasty. TheySimone Collins: will fall the table, the table’s going to fall apart if it doesn’t have this screws in it. And he’s like, well, why did they make the screws golden? Is if that’s like, you know, why was she wearing a minikit and walking down a dark alleyway, huh?Exactly that. Okay. Okay.Malcolm Collins: You’re a funny one. Simone. I like being married to you a bitSimone Collins: toaster. Our funny one. A little toaster strudel. A brave little toaster.Malcolm Collins: You gonna show him that video?Simone Collins: That’s a horrifying movie. I can’t handle that. If you wanna watch that with them. [00:59:00]Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I guess you’re right.Simone Collins: There were at least in what was, what were some other ones of our childhood?A amazing adventure or something where like animals, like cat goes down a waterfall, animals something. There’s another one where thingsMalcolm Collins: like a, a button bunny dies, like watershed Down, I think it’s called or something.Simone Collins: Oh no. Watership Down is a fun book. I, I don’t know if I’ve seen the movie. There’s a lot of like, like really screwed up.Mo Bambi. What, what was that? Yeah, yeah.Malcolm Collins: Hello. This is, oh, are we on the right side?Simone Collins: Oh. Thank you for catching that.Malcolm Collins: Alright. All right. Here we go.Speaker 2: Okay, so you see Simone has been cooking up all these cookies so that people don’t mess up her C-section. So they know that she’s a nice person or believe that she is. Right, Simone. So you’re trying to trick them. Yes, I think, yeah. All right. And the other [01:00:00] kids, we got our one little watermelon here. Right?You’re like a watermelon. Are you an actual watermelon or like a fake one? What about you, Octavian? Have you eaten your food tonight?We were talking with Telemundo today, which is A NBC subsidiary. They told me there were no genetic differences between human instance, between human ethnic groups, and this is a scientific fact. A book. Oh, a book. Do you like this book? Yeah, because it’s.Don’t break it. Okay. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

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