Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

Dive into the mysterious world of the Iron Mountain Underground Facility, a former limestone mine housing government secrets and inefficiencies. Unearth the shocking tale of a $100 million fraud scheme linked to social security. Explore dark conspiracies surrounding political figures and historical events like JFK's assassination. Laugh along as the hosts critique absurd societal regulations and envision a quirky future. Plus, enjoy lighthearted discussions about culinary adventures and exciting discoveries.

In this episode, we explore the two key topics: how to secure and convert high-quality partners and how to avoid hypergamy in relationships. The discussion delves into personal examples and broader societal observations, including the dynamics that made the hosts' relationship successful. We also touch on the pitfalls of traditional and urban monoculture relationship paradigms, and the importance of having an aligned objective function for a stable partnership. Insights on effective dating strategies, transparency, and ideological alignment in relationships are shared to help viewers navigate their own journey to finding a lasting and fulfilling relationship. Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. I'm really excited to be talking with you today. I am a woman, a wolf, I'm hypergamous, I'm evil. And I'm going to tell you exactly why I chose my husband, who of course I will discard someday for a better, I mean, maybe let's find out specifically the two concepts we're going to be discussing in this episode.is how I secured Simone as a wife. And the second is IE, why did she develop feelings for me from her own perception? Why did she decide to marry me when before this she had been very urban monoculture, very in that bubble, you know, how do you secure and convert, not just secure, but convert high quality women?And then second, how do you avoid hypergamy? We're talking about this because a lot of people following this podcast are interested in finding a wife and also many of the ambitious, intelligent, successful young women they're dating are [00:01:00] also very urban monoculture pill. They're just like me. They never want to have kids.They want to focus on their career. They're the idea of pregnancy is abhorrent to them. So maybe we can use me as a case study delve into my previous brain and at least the, the dynamics that enabled. Malcolm's in my relationship to happen to see if maybe some of this might be replicated for you if this is a goal of yours.And then how to avoid hypergamy, which I would argue is made likely by overly trad relationships. Both being too overly urban monoculture or overly trad makes you very at risk for hypergamy. That's interesting. The first thing I think of when you mentioned that is when it comes to careers, the smart thing is to switch careers every few years because you're able to get a better income.And I wonder if the same dynamic is the case when your career is being a wife, like after a few years, especially if you feel like you're appreciating in value, like if you're building an online following or you're getting hotter in any way, like if you're actually a terrible wife trading [00:02:00] up and being hypergamous is, is actually the logical thing to do.That's interesting. Sorry. Well, let's start with you and why you chose me and what guys have Gotten your eye before. Yeah, so I have a very consistent track record of people I've had crushes on since I was a teen the universal factor is Having a unique passion for something in your life, knowing who you are and being very transparent about it and unapologetic about it.In other podcasts, we've, we've alluded to this like very embarrassing crush I had on this guy who was really into Catholic doctrine. And I would go to his dorm room bringing all these cupcakes and asking him hard questions about Catholicism. Cause it was just like my excuse to like get him to talk to me more.I had crushes on people. who were, you know, ended up, he ended up, he's like, Oh, Simone, I've enjoyed these discussions with you so much. I've decided to become a priest. And she's like, [00:03:00] no, this is how good my game is. For those who don't know, Catholic priests can't marry or date. So yeah, that was, yeah.I know it worked out really well. Come on, Malcolm. I'm really all is as it should be. I want to take a few notes on what you're saying here because Simone is not unique in this fact. Not at all. Most high value women I know have this profile in terms of what that like gets them excited about a partner.And A lot of the guys I know when they are pursuing women do not pursue them using these techniques and we'll go over the techniques that they use that are really ineffective. The first, I think one thing I'll just note is even when you look at a lot of the crushes that take place in fictional universes it's often on guys who.I have no interest in women are not like, Oh, I'm here. Cause I'm like powerful and cool. It's men who are extremely passionate about whatever it is. Like be that revenge or [00:04:00] saving their kingdom or something else. It's people who know who they are and have a mission and are pursuing it. And these are the women, this, these are the men to whom women want to hitch their wagons.Yep. Lots of Luigi Mini Gionni fan fictions going around right now. I was just watching that. Oh dear. But I, I. I want to explain one, why this is the case. And two, the, the reason why guys are making mistakes is the first mistake comes downstream of the red pill movement. And you and I would actually consider ourselves like red pillars to an extent.The red pill is fundamentally correct where it taught guys that, hey, women say they want X, but they really want Y. But there was a sub caveat to everything the red pill taught men and everything the pickup artist taught men Which was, this is how you win on the sexual marketplace. And as we've always pointed out, there are two key marketplaces.There is the sexual marketplace, and there is the marriage slash long [00:05:00] term relationship marketplace. And on the sexual marketplace, women have an enormous advantage. And, you know, these same guys will laugh at women who think they can get the same type of guy to marry them as they can get to sleep with them on a one night stand, but not apply just as for that woman, different rules apply between these two marketplaces, different things are arousing, different things are desirable.The same thing is true for men. And so they apply. Tools and techniques that have been optimized to secure a woman who will sleep with you as quickly as possible. Like, as attractive as a woman as possible, sleeping with you as quickly as possible. Well, what's one of the things that those techniques are going to filter out if they are working as intended?They are going to filter out chaste women very early. You would want them to filter out chaste women. But I'm going to a bar and I am looking to come home and sleep with someone that night. A pickup line that causes [00:06:00] a woman like Simone, who before me had never slept with someone to like and walk away is actually a good line.It increases the probability that you end up going home with someone. But the problem is, is it also means that intrinsically the women who you are bringing home are gonna be well, both one less chaste and two less interesting. And so you could say, okay, so why is it that so many of this chaste cast of women is thinking like Simone is in terms of their arousal pattern?Like, why are they looking for a man who has a mission? And I think that there is. A line in Rick and Morty that is said derogatorily, but it's actually, I think, the aspiration for a lot of women. Which is, he says, hey,I mean, it's not like he's a hot girl. He can't just bail on his life and set up shop in someone else's.Simone Collins: But that, I think, is the reality of an aspiration among many women.Is they want to set themselves up in a [00:07:00] life that looks like it's going to matter and be respected. Or at least be something that they can take personal pride in being a part of. I think it also might correlate with long term signs of career stability. So it, this is the behavior that you would expect from someone who is not a free radical, from someone who is likely to have a steady income and security in their life.And I think, Women looking for long term partners are subconsciously looking for someone who is also dependable and consistent and a safe person to address it. I disagree actually. So here, listen to this and then you'll be like, Oh yeah, you're right. Okay. Okay. Of the women I know who have chosen partners based on this factor, which a lot of high quality women have.The most common relationship structure is the sword and shield structure that we have discussed multiple [00:08:00] times. Sword and shield structure relationships mean the woman chooses, or not the woman, one of the partners, chooses to be the shield. That means they are a secure source of income. And then the sword goes out and does the high risk, high reward things that can move the family.It's the passion. It's the consistent passion and transparency that indicates that they will be a sword at all. I think absolutely. Women are more likely to be the shield. I think you're totally wrong in thinking that. Women aren't looking for a consistent driving passion to be able to trust that their men will be a sword.I cannot tell you how many women i've encountered who have met and ended up with men and then ultimately left them or just been Dragged by down by them for life because those men end up just being louts at home and not doing anything Like that is a really common issue You're saying but the way that you had framed this to begin with is they look for this trait of In men, because it leads to economic stability and careers.But you have to understand a man who is [00:09:00] passionate, who knows what he's all about and who really is like. big on a thing isn't a guy who like gets a salary job and does his nine to five. Right, because this is literally antithetical to economic stability. No, I don't, I don't mean economic stability. I mean, like you can depend on them to be driving the family forward.Towards the goal. Yes, but I think that's the way you said what you said could easily be misinterpreted by a guy to be girls want a guy was a successful, like, say, bureaucratic career. And I'm sure some do some do, but I would say that if you're looking for like really high quality women, often that is not what they want and they actually want to be support for the guy, but when they want to be support for a guy, they want the guy doing something big and interesting enough to be worth dedicating your life to a supporting role in that.Because you're investing, you're [00:10:00] essentially investing in a startup. So you're not going to invest in a startup. Stupid sounding startup. You want to invest in something good. Yeah. And I also know we've had sword and shield relationships for people who are like, well, I prefer traditional relationship.Well, this was traditional for Vikings. Women stayed, they managed the family finances. They managed the farm and the guy would go in Spartans too. Yeah, no, this is actually probably more of a common relationship in, in human history. Then anything close to a nuclear family has been where the guy goes out and earns all the money and the woman stays at home and does nothing.That's, that's incredibly rare. That's really kind of descended from aristocratic relationships. The women, yeah, the women never really did anything if they were high achieving, even aristocratic women. Did a lot like they did the household management if you were an aristocratic woman, that means that your husband ran ran You know an estate this this was the equivalent of running a city like being a mayor of a city Yeah, you were there were there were tenants who were farming you had a village you had the entire household You were [00:11:00] entertaining important guests.You were basically running an events management company and a small town This is where you got the, the poverty and I'd call it like the, the emotional poverty of the nuclear family, which as we pointed out before really only started in like the 1910s and only lasted until the 19 let's say seventies, where you had men who supported a wife at home.And that was because the middle class in America. Tried to model their family structure off of the family structure of aristocrats of before 1910. So, you know, they saw the woman staying at home, the man going out. And but by the way, before this period, what you had was corporate families, the man and the woman would work together to run something.But anyway they, they, Saw this happening and they tried to model it but without understanding That the women who lived this type of lifestyle were actually doing a ton of stuff But because they didn't have courts because they didn't have you know parties Every other month at [00:12:00] their house that like hundreds of people would come to because they didn't have a staff The woman was just sitting at home all day And this is why you got all these housewives addicted to like cocaine and like other stuff What were all the drugs that they were on?I can't remember Mommy's little helper. Yeah. A major problem for housewives because you can't just like sit at home and do nothing all day. I mean in the like 30s to 50s it was in fed means and then after that it was like, I would say 60s to 90s it was benzos. So it kind of depends on your time. Yeah, but I'd also note here around like, let's say arousal patterns because like you actually, you didn't just like logically decide to go for me.Yeah. You developed a crush on me when you saw my passion and how much I had thought through things. Like, explain how that works, because I think that's going to be interesting for people. Yeah the, the biggest thing that felt so shocking, going on a date with Malcolm after going on a date with me, A bunch of [00:13:00] other guys in the Bay Area when I was on my campaign and that is to say when I turned 24 I decided there's a new year's resolution that year I was going to fall in love and have my heart broken and then live alone forever So I was like systematically going through okay Cupid going like dating through the bay area the san francisco bay area to try to find someone I could fall in love with The guys before, you know, we, we had some of the conversations were interesting.Some of the dates were really interesting and surprising but they never really, no one stood out because no one, no, everyone was aimless. No one knew what they, Really valued what they cared about. There were certainly things they were interested in. They were building this or that are working on us with their career, or they really were interested in four year transforms or like building obstacle courses or all sorts of interesting things.Like they were interesting people. And I, I also, I think it's misleading for me to be like, none of them had passions, but none of them had passions that [00:14:00] came from any sort of ideological or like deep set values. It was, it was hobbies. And I think Interesting hobbies that augmented their self perception as interesting people.Yeah, and you know, I don't know if this is true. I was listening to a podcast earlier this month about hobbies being something that were concertedly developed even through the school system under the understanding that as technology advanced, society would end up with a ton of free time, and needed to direct that free time in a virtuous direction.Like with sports or woodwork or fishing or whatever, so that, you know, they didn't like loiter on the streets and just start breaking things for fun because they had the time because they didn't have to work all the time anymore. And I really, whether that's true or not, and it's probably at least a little bit true.The concept of hobbies really is kind of this opiate of the masses thing. It's like, yeah, I really highlight on something. They were in terms of women's arousal patterns. [00:15:00] Right. Which is hobbies are what you do to masturbate specific emotional pathways as a male, what you do when you don't have.Purpose in life. Because if you have a, if you know what you're doing with your life, no, no, no, hear me out here. Like if you really know what you're all about, you may do something to wind down a little bit that you could call a hobby, but you really don't have like. A big all encompassing hobby because you have a bigger thing to work toward and you're going to take your free time to do That to advance on that, you know, I I agree a hundred percent but but like for me, for example I do like recreational activities that I understand to be purely recreational like video games For yeah, but you only do them when you like actually need to rest because you literally can't think anymore You've been right, but I, yeah, I understand that they are no different from masturbation.That is what I am doing when I am playing a video game. I am masturbating parts of my head. And I think that some men hear women to say something like a guy [00:16:00] who's a gamer gives me the ick and they're like, Oh my gosh, like, because you see this like guys, right? They're like, Oh, women like just discount any guy who's a gamer.And like, you misunderstand what's being said here, right? It's guys whose primary thing in life is gaming is what is giving the ick. It is guys whose gaming is more important to them than their purpose. That is going to give any high quality woman the ick. Any sort of hobby, where hobby is defined as something that doesn't follow some sort of like deep seated value for, Like I could say improving the world or whatever it is that you want to do, right?Even if it's well a fairly high status one like I Put together like a zombie run in san francisco every year or something like that, right? Like and it's it's big and it's all on all the newspapers and it's like that's a big thing But it's a thing devoid of purpose It's a high status thing and it adds a quirk to your character, but it's a thing devoid of [00:17:00] purpose or I do these really cool like Burning Man art displays and come check out this giant like truck a saurus I made and it's like that's cool, but yeah, a lot of people like that and it was fun exploring these things with them, but I never came away from our dates thinking.Like I want to be associated with this person. Like this is someone I could spend my life with. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I, I think thatone thing you said to me when you were talking about this is you're like, they have to have an objective function. And if you don't have one of those yet, the pragmatist guide to life, our first book, it's 99 cents on Amazon. Like just get it and read it. An objective function is a term that we use to describe Thing or collection of things like, you know, weighted weighted things that you think have inherent value and that you want to maximize with your life.They're not life goals because that implies that this thing of inherent value can be achieved. Whereas pretty much [00:18:00] all objective functions whether it be, you know, reducing suffering in mankind or maximizing the amount that you can learn or you know, protecting human flourishing and intelligence all of these things are, are not discreet goals.So do you have any more thoughts on this particular topic before we go to the next one? The other thing that really was And that stood out, which I think is also super important. And this is an issue with both men and women is how transparent and honest you were on our first date. You sit across from me and you say I'm not looking to date.I'm looking to find a wife and I expect to find her this fall at Stanford where there's a large pool of pre wedded candidates. Immediately. I knew that you were looking to get married that you Had specific criteria for a wife that you didn't think that I fit that criteria, but you were still willing to talk to me.And then you proceeded to give me, like you laid out your, your objective function, what you believed mattered and how you were going to achieve it with your life. And that to me was [00:19:00] so refreshing because I know that everyone I went on a date with wanted something, but the vast majority, like, well, none of them until you.Actually told me that, you know, it was just always talking about other things. It was never, just never out there. And I think that both men and women, I think they think because they're often tropes of being transparent as, as being seen as being desperate or needy, you know, like a woman being like, I'm looking to get married on a first date.And not playing hard to get, for example being seen as bad, but honestly, it just, There, there are bad ways to deliver it, but if you deliver it right, and if you're based and honest about it, when you really reveal your agenda, you are saving time. If someone doesn't want to get married and you want to get married and you're on a date with them, it is so good for all of you.If you just, Make it clear that you're not a good match. The sooner you get to know on that front, the better. And it's similar with, you [00:20:00] know, pickup artistry. If someone isn't interested in having sex that night and you want sex that night, you need to move on. And this is really clear in all the strategy forums.Like you, you cannot afford to spend your entire night working on a girl who clearly isn't going to go home with you. So Yeah, I just, that transparency was huge, and I loved that. It was very sexy. And that's the problem with the pickup artist community in terms of finding wives. It's that woman who is literally the worst woman for a pickup artist.Oh, yeah. The best woman for a guy who wants to get married. Yeah. And so it led to really bad techniques being developed. And, and here I'd note the final thing, the huge mistake that guys make is a big thing in pickup artistry is looking dominant and fitting this aesthetic of masculinity. And a lot of men online will shame other men for not fitting this aesthetic of masculinity.They'll be like, Oh, you know, you're not being masculine or buff in this way. Or, Oh, you're not being masculine or buff in this [00:21:00] way. That is a form of masturbation. No different from video games in the eyes of high quality women. Of these quote unquote, like masculine buff type guys. I don't know a single one of them who has landed a high quality wife.Like it just never happens. And they'll go online and they'll s**t on other guys for like acting Faye or like, Oh, I bet he's gay or like whatever, you know, because that's how they built sort of their internal structure. Well, that's this obsession with. Appearance reeks of insecurity and women can sniff that out like shark sniff blood.Right on. I am gonna hit a homer today. Hey, who's that handsome guy? Hello? 9 1 1. Emergency. There's a handsome guy in my house. Oh, wait a second. Cancel that. It's only me. Oh, you drive me away,Simone Collins: And that's another reason why your honesty was so hot and why anyone's honesty is hot is that. Honesty reeks of [00:22:00] confidence, which is the sexiest thing you could possibly have. It's so much more important than looks. Yes and and so i'd really if guys see themselves as very masculine very manlike and that's a very important part of their identity I will say and I I I know that this requires like serious soul searching in terms of like Whether it's reading the pragmatist guide to life or rethinking other things about your life.If, if you are struggling to find high quality partners, that's likely why. Guys like this do not get high quality partners almost ever. And you can be like, well, what about Andrew Tate? And I was like, well, do you think his partners are that high quality? Like, these are like bimbos. Like, what, what are you talking about?Would you actually be happy? Like having an intellectual discussion with them and you're like, well, you don't need to have an intellectual discussion with your wife. And it's like, you better hope you plan to have an intellectual discussion with your kids because if you marry a woman who's a bimbo and an idiot, then your kids are going to be bimbos and idiots.Weak wives make weak sons. Okay. So that's not a good [00:23:00] strategy and it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. You can only get so many Andrew Tate's, you know what I mean? So to the next thing, hypergamy. All right. So fundamentally what causes hypergamy? It is When a woman chooses a man and there's this fear among a lot of men that like if you had my wife had a guy who had significantly more money than me, who was interested in you and at an equal level of attraction or whatever, and you've had guys who I think have had hundreds of millions of dollars interested in you or express interest, you might be too autistic to notice.I genuinely wouldn't tell you. Is this the only reason I haven't left you, Malcolm? Yeah, yeah, you gotta give him a piece of advice if you don't notice. But what people note here, and one guy was like, yeah, well, okay. He said this and I think that he sort of began to understand how you prevent hypergamy when he was going through his, oh, yes, but he's like, look, when a woman finds a guy who has, let's say, 5 more than her husband [00:24:00] and that guy will take her, she'll leave him for them.And then the guy was like, well, yeah, but then you've got to like price in things like starting the relationship over again, the risk of the new relationship, blah, blah, blah. He's like, okay, okay, okay. Once you price all that in, if they have, you know, marginally more money they will take that. And here you might be expecting me to say, no, they won't take that.And I'd actually say, actually, yeah, most women will take that. But that is because. Many men have not priced into their relationships, the cost of leaving them i. e. the structure of their relationships into the cost of leaving them. So, for example, you could and, and this often happens with guys and girls, and you were talking about this, like a guy moves up in the world.And with that brings a woman up in the world. Maybe he becomes a congressman or something. Right. And then she ends up meeting some business tycoon at some fancy party. And now, you know, she's no longer a waitress. She's the wife of a and then [00:25:00] I was at an event recently, a heritage foundation event, and there was a lawyer there who's talking about how divorce can even become trendy in some communities and positively start augmenting people's social status.Like, well, if you don't have an X, then you're not really, I mean, you're sort of scoogy, you know what I mean? So when you have all of that, you can have people want to leave their partner with only minimal cost to them, right? It's like, well, you know, I'm staying at home. And this is why stay at home.Wives are so likely to leave their husbands because husband's are like, what? I did everything. I supported them. And it's like, no, you created a lot of life. Where they could just trade you out for anyone else who was supporting them with an equal amount of money. That is what you created. And worse, they have a psychological belief in their head.If they don't have a, a new partner lined up, which sometimes they don't that they can secure the same type of partner that they were dating when they first met you. Now this belief is wrong, but it can still lead them to leaving you and making really, [00:26:00] really dumb decisions that hurt you both or.You know, their friends will be like, Hey, you can get all that money, you know as they say, you know, in a divorce, his lawyer was telling me that's, it usually goes half the money goes to the wife, a quarter goes to the lawyers and a quarter goes to the husband. Oh gosh. And this woman can get a stipend.She doesn't need to listen to you anymore. You know, she's on pay for the next, this is a pretty good, like, okay. So then you're like, if you didn't have some kind of emotional investment in the relationship, like an ideological or emotional investment. You'd be kind of dumb to not go for it. It would be It would be stupid to not so then a person can say, wait, you're, you're making it seem very likely that a woman would leave you.Right? It's like, no, if you do this trad thing, it's likely that a woman like the Laura Thurston thing, right? You know, she tried the whole trad thing and then they broke up and Or that Steven Crowder thing. He was trying the whole trad thing and they broke up. But and you know, who knows if she, you know, [00:27:00] overly exaggerated in the claims against him and stuff like that.I've heard that she might have, but you know, there's the footage, so whatever. The point being, I'm sure if you could get footage of the worst I'd ever been to Simone, I mean, it wouldn't be like that, but I would look bad. I'd be like, We all look bad when we're being dicks too. Each other. I mean, what do you want to say?The point here is if you left me both of us would have nothing the cost to leaving me to you and me Is so catastrophic that No matter how much money a guy had, it wouldn't be worth it because we have built a traditional corporate relationship, which means that my public identity in your public identity and our public identities being our, so for example they're like, wait, you guys work in private equity.Yeah, but we worked in private equity together. We were co CEOs of our companies. We co raised money for our [00:28:00] funds. They're like, well, you guys are well known public figures together. We have a joint Wikipedia page. I don't know anyone else with a joint Wikipedia page. How do you get divorced? If you have a joint Wikipedia page we've written all our books together.We do our podcast together. I want your thoughts on this.The marriages I've seen fell apart and some of them even include marriages that I just thought were. The dream marriages of, you know, the parents of my friends who I thought were just perfect together, they, they resulted from a lack of ideological alignment of the relationship being of two people living their own lives, rather than a team fighting toward a shared goal.When you marry someone because you want a partner, someone, a friend, someone to keep you company, someone to raise your kids, someone to clean your house, someone to make money for you. So you can keep a house that, that it often isn't [00:29:00] ideologically aligned. It's not the incentives aren't aligned and you can drift apart from that person really, really easily.That's why I, it's, it's not for me. I actually think it would be fairly easy for us to part ways logistically speaking. And at least for me, to have a career, I think being a white man and trying to get a career is really scary these days, but like, if I had, you know, no attachment to you and you suddenly became terrible to me, It would not be a problem for me to leave you, period.Like, it's just that easy. And I think everyone, like, this is why men are afraid to get married. The reason I This is a really good point. So, so I, yeah, I could have been wrong in what keeps you with me which is You are wrong. I am wrong. So it's that what really puts a marriage at risk, and this is a problem for a lot of trad individuals, is they marry somebody who has chosen to marry you, not because of you, but because you allow them to fulfill a role, i.e. they really wanted to be a mom, they [00:30:00] really wanted to be a stay at home wife, they really wanted to be a, and you Functionalize that role. And this is a huge problem. Like if you're like a trad Mormon or a trad Cath or like a trad, you know you will find a lot of women like that who aren't marrying you for a shared mission but are marrying you so they can perform a role.And that means that you are interchangeable for anyone who makes that role incrementally easier. Or not even interchangeable. You will become irrelevant. if their desired role changes or if you fail to, to maintain that role yourself. Well, I mean, I think the really scary thing for guys is they can maintain the role, but somebody else can maintain it better.That's true. Yeah. That's, that's the third way this can go wrong. No, the, the, I would not leave you because not, I mean, not only do I, like, am I over the moon for you and I love you and also you just get hotter every day. And I don't know why there's just so many things that [00:31:00] I absolutely adore about you.It's because there, I cannot fathom a, a more effective way. To achieve my objective function then by working in tandem with you that I will be significantly worse off at maximizing my values. If I'm working without you, and I think there's something similar for you, you know, without me, your impact in life would be so much less.And for that reason, we are a very strong team. We are more impactful together. And there's a very strong disincentive for us to not work together because working alone, we achieve. 20 percent of what we achieve working together. And that's the big thing. Well, I mean, but that's the cost thing. Like you say, it's not a cost to leaving me, but a cost to leaving me is that you are less efficient at achieving your goal and you would price that in most couples.I'm in, I'm [00:32:00] talking about a scenario in which that wasn't the case. Like we weren't ideologically aligned. In which case logistically, like from a perspective of me having an easy life and having the income I need to, you know, meet my needs. Like there's no problem there. And that's how most people are thinking that the vast majority of couples, as you know, I mean, have you talked to a person recently, like, you know, we, we do this all the time, are not ideologically aligned.They're, they often are, you know, smart, wonderful people who love each other very much. And are nice and like get along well. And people typically think, Oh, there goes a really nice couple, but if they are not ideologically aligned and essential to the other person to help them achieve their life's purpose, the relationship is on thin ice.Right. Well, and that's something that is a result of the first thing that we talked about. And it's why it's good to have these two conversations together, which you chose me because I had a [00:33:00] purpose in life that you could understand and logically agree with. Yeah. More importantly, you had a purpose in life and it 100 percent aligned with what I valued.My, like I wrote in my diary after I met you after our first date about how mad I was that I wasn't you. Because you got it as far as I was concerned and you were doing such a better job than I was. Like you, you had thought through things so much better than I had. You knew what you were doing. You were on your way.And I was just so pissed that I wasn't you. And I think that's, that's another really good sign. It's like, Oh, like this is a, this is a force multiplier of me. Like I want to be them is a much better. Instinct to have with a potential life partner than I want to be with them where I want to, I want to have sex with them.I want to be them is like. That's, that's who you want to marry. That's someone you admire. That's someone who can help you achieve your goals in life. Like that is, that is something beautiful. And I still exist. You're still here. The truth is, and this is [00:34:00] what makes dating so hard is you really do need to, you cannot, and I think so many guys try this as they try to.Accommodate women who are in the urban monoculture rather than shock women in the urban monoculture, out of the urban monoculture to try for something more and bigger. And this accommodating approach to dating, I think leads to really negative outcomes as negative as the trad outcomes. Because you're like, okay, we're going to like compromise our beliefs about the world.So we can kind of work together because both of us want to be married and like have a kid or something. Right. Which is very different. You need. Personal belief system that you have so much conviction in that it sort of shocks him out of this poorly thought through urban monoculture framework, which is the reason why when people are like, Oh, I want to date, which of your books do I read in the pragmatist guide to relationships with the pragmatist guide to sexuality?I'm like, it's the pragmatist guide to life. That's the one to be good at dating. Yes. Anyway, I really hope that this helps somebody and that you don't make these mistakes because it is [00:35:00] so easy to do. Yeah. Which is funny because I think. For the vast majority of human history, people have been getting together for the reasons we describe, you know, it's like, hey, we want we're fighting for the same thing.This is a sensible partnership. We, we shall marry, so I will, but yeah, I love you broadly both why it's not just the progressive marriages that are struggling. It's. Also, the conservative and tribe marriages and a lot of people and it's so heartbreaking to me. They're like, but I was earning good money and I was supporting my wife and kids.Why would she leave me? And it's like, well, because she can, she can leave you and she can get a stipend for the rest of her life and she can do whatever she wants and she doesn't need making meals anymore. And she can screw the pool boy. Like why wouldn't she leave you? You did. nothing to integrate her into your mission for life.And there are ways a stay at home wife can be integrated into a man's mission for life. But it's hard and it's risky and it's [00:36:00] nuanced. You are threading the needle. You can't just serve a role. If you just serve a role, you've done the single most risky thing you can in terms of the structuring of the marriage.Anyway, am I going to look really stupid when you leave me in a year for hot rich guy who's into you? You are hot like I just I can't You, you know, that like, if you were to die, for example, and you're not allowed to do that, by the way, there would be no replacement. There would be, there should be your life would be harder without one.No, there's just, there's no replacing you. And I, I would not, I'm, I'm saying you should find another husband if I die. Well, I'm not going to, cause I think like all, all humans disgust me. And for some reason, yeah. You you're my human. So deal with it. Well, what about our kids? Don't they need a dad?They'll just watch your podcasts, and I'll, you know, beat them up more. You'll, you'll synthesize one through an AI? Yeah, I'll just make an AI Malcolm. [00:37:00] It's fine. So, yeah, that's that's how I feel about you. There is no replacing you. I know you're going to replace me right away. I'd replace you right away.I know, I know. Yeah, who's, who's the, who's the hypergamous one now? Who's the one who's, who's not faithful now? Huh? Huh? Wait, would you not want me to replace you? No, I would, I, yeah, I really want our kids to have someone who You're like, look, I can do both of the jobs. You don't clean. You don't do laundry.You cannot do both of the jobs. I admit that. Yeah, the house would be in shambles. I, I, no, I would be turning in my grave. Which, no, please cremate me and turn it into diamonds so our children can wear their mother and be creepy about it. I'm really excited for that. Alright, love you Simone. I love you too so, and Hey, thank you for efficient use of time there, by the way. The way, I'm gonna handle the chickens after this, before I pick up the kids because I was just, Oh, and your Christmas present to me has finally [00:38:00] arrived of what is it? You'll find out, won't you? I'm so excited. She buys presents from me to her because I'm not, you know, the best.I buy the presents for everyone in the family, but Malcolm still, with his discretionary income, pays for them, because he pays the exact same amount that I pay. For him and the same goes for our kids. So, so no one in the family receives more in monetary value and gifts than anyone. Is it just your weird neuroses?I believe in equitable spending across the family. Thank you very much. So. There it goes. All right. I'm excited to be here. Sorry. Stop doing that. This is why, you know, this is why Octavian had that irritated lip issue. He kept licking his lips. You need to stop. But this is where he got it from. Malcolm. I get it.It's too dry. You know what? I'm going to put the same. Bitter like skin thing on your lips that we had to [00:39:00] put on his. If you keep this up, put it on you when you're asleep, you won't, you won't have an escape because you are a deep sleeper. So watch out. Okay. I see you doing this again. Oh, Oh yeah. We got a terrifying life here.You see, it's not all, what are the guns and roses? It's not all guns and roses.Is that a traditionalist American thing? It's sunshine and rainbow. Oh, okay. Why would somebody want rainbows and sunshine? No, guns and roses. What would I do without you, Malcolm? Thank you for existing. Yeah, yeah.We mentioned that, , because, you know, so many people were at Na, Alcon looking for a potential husband or wife that we'd start doing ads for women who are looking for a husband, , and happen to be watching. The reason we do it for women and not men is because most of our audience is men. So [00:40:00] most of the people who are going to be hearing this are going to be men., and many of them will be single and potentially interested in marrying someone. So, , if this person sounds interesting to you. , and you live in their area, you can email us and we'll pass it on. A creative young woman, 25, living in NYC and capable of managing money, conversing, dancing, and altogether making a calm, happy home.Wishes to obtain an introduction to a sober, hardworking gentleman, not greatly, her senior who delights in having children underfoot and is eager to build a lighthouse on the sands of time? Must be a practicing Jew object matrimonial alliance. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com

In this episode, the hosts engage in a deep discussion about the controversial downfall of Jack Murphy, a former conservative influencer, and whether kink shaming should have a place in the new right ideology. They explore sexual fetishes, societal norms around sexuality, and the implications of shaming non-normative arousal patterns. The conversation also touches on traditional values, arousal pathways, and the potential consequences of making private sexual preferences public. Join us for a candid, thought-provoking discussion on the balance between sexual morality and personal freedom in conservative spaces. [00:00:00]Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I had an interesting thing that happened in an episode recently where Ry Nationalist was on. We were talking about Jack Murphy, who used to be a famous sort of conservative influencer who had this, this club and this podcast and everything like that.And then it turned out that he was in to being, I. Cued specifically his girlfriend sleeping with other people and into putting things in his butt and this, we're gonna go over all of that. I wasn't like, we weren't conservative influencers when that happened, right. So, like, we had nothing to say on that, when that happened, but when I heard this, my first intuition was to be like, oh, I feel kind of bad for him.Like. I didn't have like embarrassing fetishes that I had to worry about like that, you know, like this is what turned him on, you know? And you don'tSimone Collins: get to choose what turns you on and what turns you on isn't a reflection of your morality either.Malcolm Collins: Yeah.Tamura, I [00:01:00] miss me something. My computer's hard drive. I need you to dump it in the bathtub and fry it. All done. Please rest in peace, Satoru.Malcolm Collins: And it made me think a question, right? Like. I want to go into all of this again, and I want to go into it, you know, as the, the new right.And the tech right is sort of consolidating as a ideological perspective. Okay. And you and I are some of the, I'd say primary, regular influencers shaping that ideological perspective. What should be like as we unc, UNC ourselves from the left, as we Debra de brainwash, deprogram ourselves, what should our perspective be on kink shaming?I like is kink shaming [00:02:00] something that we should continue to do? Is it certain kinks where we should continue to do it? And here, I would note when I talk about kink shaming, and I need to be as clear as I can about this,Simone Collins: hmm.Malcolm Collins: This does not include instances in which somebody else without your consent forces you to participate in their kink.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. ThatSimone Collins: is,Malcolm Collins: that's very different. They talk to you about their kink. That means they dress up as their kink in a public context. That means they go to children's book readings in their kink. Here I am talking about things that people do in private, and the reason why I think it's, it's bad to pretend like.All kinks are bad is, well, our book, the Pregnant Guided Sexuality, we did a, a survey on this just to see how common kinks are, right? Like non-normative arousal patterns. And we found that the average person is aroused by 22 weird things. People have. K people have a, a . I need to cut that out.'cause I had no more swearing on this show. [00:03:00] Mm-hmm. A basket of kinks. It was 23.1 for men and 20.8 for women. So not even like that different. And if you're like, how clustered are these? There was a study of 2,300 people in the UK showing that roughly 75% had some kink. So the vast of people. Have a kink.Mm-hmm. Our society works because we do not talk about it.Alright, kid. Here's the deal. At any given time,Around 75% of the people you interact with are perverts in some way.Most of them right here in Manhattan, and most of 'em are decent enough. They're just trying to make a living cab drivers not as many as you'd think. Humans, for the most part, don't have a clue. They don't want one or need one, either.They're happy, they think they have a good bead on things, but why? Why a big secret? People are smart. They can handle it. A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals. And you know it. 1500 years ago, everybody knew the earth was the center of the universe. [00:04:00] 500 years ago, everybody knew the earth was flat.And 15 minutes ago you knew that people wereMostly just turned on by the opposite sex.Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.What's the catch? The catch? The catch isjust because you're aroused by something doesn't mean you have to indulge in itAnd That doesn't mean it's okay to talk about this stuff in public. You keep that to yourselfor.you will sever every human contact. Nobody will ever know you exist anywhere, ever.I'll give you the sunrise to think it over.Hey, is it worth it?Malcolm Collins: If you're strong enough.But it's, it's a thing where it's like you can have something unusual that arouses you without communicating it to other people. 100%.Simone Collins: And without acting on it.Malcolm Collins: And without acting on it. But there, there's, there's multiple categories here. Like if it's deleterious to other people, I can see, do not act on it, right?Mm-hmm. If it is like there's, you know, if, if it's like, you know, just your masturbating to it or something like that, I think that's a [00:05:00] very different category than going out and doing it in public. Like say if you're gay, right? Well, that might be a too offensive one to choose. What's a less offensive one to choose?Because I was gonna say like, it's, it's harder to get married and have lots of kids if you don't have a lot of money if you're gay. So it's better to just if you, if you're not like a successful tech bro, just. Not act on it if your end outcome is having a lot of kids. But that doesn't mean that like there's necessarily this huge moral negative to like masturbating to it or something.And by the way, this does reduce the incident of like people like, oh, like masturbating to something makes you want it more. And it's like, no, like the actual studies are very categorical on this.Simone Collins: You know, ALIST, latest substack as of the time of this recording is her earnest argument. In, in following up on her most controversial tweet saying that if we had more ai, PDA file porn, fewer children would be harmed.So she's making the same argument. [00:06:00] Well, I,Malcolm Collins: that is what got me thinking about this, but I wasn't Oh, really? To include that as part of the argument. Because I'm just pointing what you're saying. No, I'm saying that gets too spicy. I'm just talking generally kink shaming on the right, but, but you know, if you look at like porn more generally Yeah.Like the idea that, oh, porn makes you do bad things. Mm-hmm. In countries where porn was illegal and then it was made legal, the amount of child, essay decreased by 50%. This is the check. Yeah. This,Simone Collins: it is. Clearly if you care about children, you are not going to ban porn.Malcolm Collins: Yes. But, but it's like, okay, when people don't have access, and they, and it was repeated in other countries where they did this, it's just like a really persistent thing mm-hmm.In the United States as access to the internet increases, which is basically access to porn. Rates of sexual assault also go down. Like, this is a very clear correlation. You are arguing for a aesthetic and not real, like an individual who says, I am against Child sa. And I am against pornography is [00:07:00] similar to a environmentalist who is like, I am against global warming and I am against nuclear power plants.It's like those two things might be aesthetically aligned, but if you logically actually cared about the first thing, you wouldn't be pro the second thing. Mm-hmm. Because again, the, the people who are engaging in certain, but what I, what I wanted to get to here was this idea of, of this guy. What he did, his downfall.Other conservatives, because there's other conservatives. The guy who ran the Proud Boys, apparently he did a thing that apparently a lot of people have criticized him for. Being like, oh, you know, anal stimulation in males is something that you can try without being like less masculine. Right. Okay. And apparently, I mean, just theSimone Collins: sheer number of dudes who show up in ERs with I slipped in the shower and something random up their butt shows that this is actually way more common than people wanna let on.Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, but I mean also like biologically, like if you're just looking at like the, the, the stimulation points of males, like the interior prostate is [00:08:00] one of the stimulation points Yeah. That a person could be using if we'reSimone Collins: talking just pure logistics. Yeah. If you're looking for more ways to feel things.Yeah. If you're lookingMalcolm Collins: for pure logistics of how to maximize your turn on. Yeah. And, and the. Funniest thing about Simone and I is, I think one of the reasons we engage in sexuality topics so much is we find it so intellectually perplexing. Like I think if I actually had like a bunch of skeletons in my closet or something, I wouldn't be doing this because I'd be so afraid.But like actually we're more like, yeah, humans, like sex is gross. Like this, this whole thing is gross and, and you can intellectualize it or engage with it, but some people, well, it's likeSimone Collins: watching. You know, pigeons court each other and being kind of disgusted and asking why do they do that?That is, yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But, but I also, you know, feel like Jack Murphy, for example, he didn't choose to have this like he was dealing with an No no. An entire category [00:09:00] of temptation that I have never had to deal with. Yeah. And that's rough. It's building up an influencer career is. Hard work. Okay. It is a lot of work and a lot of risk.Yeah. And to have done that and then have that destroyed no, no. He did other things when he was caught with this. You know, we'll get, we'll get into all that. It made me be like. Should we normalize this in, in the new Right. Not the old right? The old right. Can do whatever the hell they want. Like the religious, funny duddies.Okay. They're always gonnaSimone Collins: be sex negative. I don't that only sex, marriage,Malcolm Collins: whatever, right? But we're not that, you know? Yeah. So what do, what do, what do we think about this? Let's go into this. So, this is, I'm gonna be combining some various articles and some various AI asks and stuff like that. Okay.In like a narrative sense where I felt like it was interesting information.Simone Collins: All right. HeMalcolm Collins: incurred the wrs of the online right when he rudely responded to podcaster Sidney Watson, asking him about the [00:10:00] article. The article in question was a 2018 piece Murphy wrote. On cultivating erotic energy from a surprising source.The source being sending his girlfriend to have sex with other men. Yeah. And if I put this, but he was, he publicly talked about this. It wasn't like it leaked. No, you publicly talked about this. Wow. Okay. So if I, if I,Simone Collins: so he felt really comfortable about this. HeMalcolm Collins: felt really comfortable about this.Yeah. If I post the stories here, it's today I sent my adoring, loyal, hot young girlfriend of two years to have sex with a stranger from Tinder. She's currently at his apartment, checked in with me via text, and it's per route. Presumably sucking and effing her way to a good time. Oh, I'm alone writing. Be happier.So he has a humiliation fetishSimone Collins: too. Be happier. No, he, that blog post was part of it. He was,Malcolm Collins: yeah. He wasSimone Collins: jizzing onto his audience with that. That is, that's likeMalcolm Collins: including your audience in this, which again, I don't think is great. Like I think that, that, that is, that is like, Hey, you guys wanna be a part of like me?[00:11:00] No, no, no. Using,Simone Collins: using an audience to get yourself off. I'm not like, no.Malcolm Collins: Okay, so in 2015, Murphy wrote an art a detailing the experience of his girlfriend to have sex with this danger from Tinder,Simone Collins: UhhuhMalcolm Collins: describing it as a source of erotic energy. He framed cook holding as a manifestation of his control writing.Today I sent my adoring a loyal hung blah, blah, blah, that suggests he was experimenting and intellectualizing his unconventional sexual practices. And then later after that. Murphy admitted to producing and posting amateur pornographic content with his fiance around 2019, driven by financial desperation.He stated we didn't have any money coming in and there were no jobs at all. I was lost and desperate, so my fiance and I did cam porn at home. People paid us to F on the couch. We made thousands of dollars. These videos live stream publicly on platforms for tips, included acts with his fiance and solo performances by Murphy.[00:12:00] So no problemSimone Collins: with that, that everyone's consenting there. Everyone wins there. Wait, because he clearly enjoys this and she, I guess,Malcolm Collins: wait.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: PJ Media National File claimed that certain SIL acts involved Murphy using a dildo for anal stimulation,for example, national file article references a torrent was a username linked to Murphy, big beard, 1000. Containing content under a folder called Bear. Oh yeah. That is definitely gay. .Suggesting Homoerotic material. But I mean, that's for his audience, right? Yeah. Though they did know.No, you have to know your target audience and if you're looking to make money.Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. No, hold on. He knows his target audience. He [00:13:00] needs money. He also enjoys that form of stimulation. I don't think that's as suspicious anymore. I thought that you meant like a person Yeah. Annel that leaked from his computer.But that's totally different now.Malcolm Collins: As far as specific allegations of of gay sex, and again, I have nothing against gay sex, but I do understand why people were like, wait, you're like an alpha male influencer who's been like, follow me to get girls, and this is what you were into. Like I get the incongruency of that.Well, there'sSimone Collins: also just the issue, which you also see with same sex especially man, man. Sex where there's just a very, very strong disgust reaction in many people and, oh, no, no, I agree. People lack the sophistication to understand that a disgusted reaction is not, does not equal this equals morally bad, which is very annoying.Malcolm Collins: A ton of males have arousal patterns that an average person, as I've pointed out, is going to because non-normative arousal pattern. This is why there's the meme of, you know, I'll put on the screen here of the, the, the [00:14:00] anime where they, his best friend after he dies, takes this computer CPU and throws it in a bathtub.Oh, yes,Simone Collins: yes, yes.Tamura, I miss me something. My computer's hard drive. I need you to dump it in the bathtub and fry it. All done. Please rest in peace, Satoru.Simone Collins: And,Malcolm Collins: I, I. I, I, I'd say for me what's really funny is like if you look at my unusual arousal patterns, the truth is I don't think like our audience would find it like weird or disgusting at all. What's so funny though, is like people have actually apoplectic, people have sentSimone Collins: us emails where they're like, I know exactly what your fetishes are, and Malcolm, not once have they gotten them right.Malcolm Collins: Nothing never happened. Yeah, yeah. Progressives would freak out. Progressives would actually like panic. Yeah. Yeah. But, but right wing people would be like,Simone Collins: what? Well, okay. Okay. Sex negative progressives [00:15:00] though. Because I, I think most sex positive progressives know all the kinks and are like, yeah, yeah, yeah.They're like, yeah, they're all fine. Everything goes. So, yeah.ModerateMalcolm Collins: that. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I guess I will moderate that, but yeah, so he, he labeled himself in one thing as Heteroflexible. Right. Okay, fine. So maybe he had, you know, male again, like, why is this, you know, again, I don't wanna say like, for, and I feel so comfortable talking about this because I am so disgusted by the idea of sleeping with me.I'm like, oh the, the, the, like, this isn't. Like my particular closet thing. Like it's really not my particular closet thing. I'm, I'm just not gonna touch anything in that category. No, you're not. Um, But, but this, I'm like, come on guys. Like, he, he was into that. He did it at one point and now he's monogamously married with kids, right?Like, oh, with the sameSimone Collins: woman, or is someone different?Malcolm Collins: I think he's, yeah, I think it's the same woman kids. Oh, that makes me happy. Aw. It worked out for them.So I had read that he had kids and I hadn't read anything about him raising [00:16:00] them alone, so I assumed he was married, but no, it turns out that he had kids and was divorced long before he ever became famous, and what he called like a blue pilled relationship, meaning he didn't probably think much of her or that it didn't go very well.So no, he was not happily married.Malcolm Collins: He was happy when you hear the trajectory, he really got sort of screwed over by all of this. And you know, I think he was, he was, he was putting out deal ideas that were so mainstream.He was like partnered with Claremont, like,Simone Collins: oh yeah, that's, no, that's the problem. You, you, he, but he made a very, very huge, and I would think obvious misstep. In doing kinky stuff while playing in the conservative realm, but that's the conversation we're having is should this still be the case? Should being kinky and conservative get you disqualified?Yeah. As an influencer.Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, that's the discussionSimone Collins: here. I, I don't, because look, what what's your, what do you think? I know what I think,Malcolm Collins: but before I go further, look, you, you've gotta keep in mind there is like a level of debauchery, right? Where it's like, , and debauchery should [00:17:00] not be defined by non-normative behavior.Hmm. It should be defined by the effect it has on the self and others. Mm-hmm. So, like in Mormon circles, right? And we talk about like a lot of kinks seem to be bred by what the population did historically, right? Or, or, or negative stereotypes and. And Mormons were in ous relationships historically. Which meant that people who were okay with their partner sleeping with other people in front of them would've had more kids historically, or knowing that their partner was sleeping.Mm-hmm. And so there's been this thing of like wife swapping and husband swapping where you do everything but full sex. And like, I would find that not just like gross, but like if you had done that with another guy in front of me, I don't know if I could get aroused by you. Like again, like it would be like, yeah, youSimone Collins: wouldn't be able to, I just know for a fact it wouldn't happen.Malcolm Collins: I try so hard. I try, ISimone Collins: promise, I, I literally have bad dreams where like I'm assaulted. And I don't care about the fact that I'm like the biggest concern I have at that moment. Obviously I'm like distressed for many reasons, [00:18:00] but the biggest one is, oh my god, Malcolm will never. See attractive again, that's like the number one thought on my mind.In addition to hating everything else, but like the number one thought is there, I know that this is true there and it sucks because you can't control that. You just can'tMalcolm Collins: control that. Yeah, I can't control that. Like I, I I. Yeah, I, I mean, there mightSimone Collins: be ways if, if, if I, I don't think so. I really, Malcolm I know you now, I know you well enough that it's just not, it wouldn't happen if this doesn't make you a bad person again.And that's, that is how arousal works. It. This is not about what you morally condone or not. This is just about Yeah, how you feel.Malcolm Collins: But apparently within Mormon communities, this isn't that strong. Yeah. ThatSimone Collins: clearly doesn't play here, but that makes sense. That make sense. A lot of people areMalcolm Collins: shamed like that.This has happened and I'm like, like there's been some scandals around this and stuff like this, and it's like, what? Like why? Like this doesn't seem to hurt anyone involved. Particularly like I'm like. And if you, and if this is the, the, the, the thing that I talked about was like the, you know, the Dursleys and one of their kid ended up sleeping [00:19:00] with one of his, like, like assaulting his younger sisters and stuff like that.When you tell someone all sex is bad, the all arousal patterns are bad. The daughters.Simone Collins: The Duggar. Oh, you so confused. I was like, is this Yes. The nature of Dugger, not the HarryMalcolm Collins: Potter family, the Duggars they, they end up thinking like, well, I'm a bad person sexually. They contextualize themselves that way.Mm. And then they normalize other genuinely horrific behavior. Right. So.And I think people can wonder why I hammer on the topic of sexuality and arousal patterns so frequently, and it's because it really is that central and important to the fight against the urban monoculture in that it is the core way that the urban monoculture peels people out of traditional cultures.Many people within traditional cultures just don't have fully developed models. Or healthy ways of relating to their own sexuality. And so the urban monoculture can can go and where you don't have sort of mental scaffolding, they're like, oh, I'll just plug this USB stick in here and put in this self-replicating [00:20:00] mimetic set, which will eventually build out an entire world perspective.And they do that within the field of sexuality. That's why so much of the urban monoculture focuses on this sexuality stuff. It's not just. The debauchery of the urban monoculture, it's that there are not appropriate defenses in place within many traditionalist cultures during their, uh, you know, puberty period, during their, their teen, late teen years.That's when they're the most vulnerable. And so it is really, really important that we find ways of relating to this that did not produce vulnerabilities.And just saying, you know, well, I'll pretend that all of this doesn't exist or that everyone's normal, or that blah blah blah. Like all of that is basically serving your children up to the urban monoculture on a platter. I.As a, uh, analogy here, it would be a bit like, like I think we can all agree pooping is gross, but. Somebody could be like, well, what? Why are you on your show always talking [00:21:00] about pooping? And it's like, well, because for whatever reason, most of the conservative cultures started teaching kids that people don't poop and that if you poop, you're weird.And I'm like, well, most of these kids, all of these kids are pooping. And if they think that they're gross and weird every time they're doing this. And then somebody else comes along and they're like, actually, you were lied to and abused. And it turns out everybody poops. that's gonna be potentially a compelling message to them where if you're like, no, both everyone poops and it's gross and weirdBut it's like an anular bodily function and definitely not the purpose of your life. If you make it the purpose of your life or essential focus of your life, or build rituals around it, , that is a waste of your life., I think that that is going to be much better at preventing kids from being peeled out.Malcolm Collins: So I think that like the new right should do a better job of like categorizing different types of non-normative sexual behavior in terms of like [00:22:00] acting on versus like, feeling. One, experimenting when you're young, I, I first experimenting when you're young or things you do when you're young.When I say young, I, I don't mean just like a kid. I mean like up to like 25, let's say 23, 21, 22, 23. 23.Simone Collins: 23. Like 20. You gotta get serious.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Anything really done before 23 or 24, I'm like full pass, like whatever. Like this guy was talking about.Simone Collins: Well, with the caveat that with women having a lot of sexual partners can, you know, that's kind of course, but womenMalcolm Collins: make mistakes, right?Like Yeah. And. I, I, I think if you wipe every woman out of the sexual marketplace who was sexually active before this age, you know, you can say, you, you shouldn't do this. You should know this is gonna affect how the partner values you. But in terms of the public stage, like if a conservative influencer woman, I.It came out that she had slept with a bunch of people before that age, like before 23. Like suppose it came out that like Louis Perry [00:23:00] or or Mary Harrington or Katherine Pak had had sex with a bunch of people before 23, and this is at odds was their current like conservative persona. I'd be like, you cannot count that against them.I, I would, I would like actively attack anybody who tried to shame their adult publicly.Simone Collins: Yes. But, you know, men would have an issue with that, which is why with our daughters, I'd still warn them again about it. Right.Malcolm Collins: I agree. But that's not what we're talking about. Yes. That's notSimone Collins: what Yeah. We're talking about should you be reputationally disqualified as a conservative influencer based on your.History sexually. Right.Malcolm Collins: Right. If anything, I'd feel worse for them. I'd feel like everything that they had done in terms of influence was in part to try to save young girls from their position right now and they just didn't want to have that publicly associated with them.Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. I,Malcolm Collins: I, I don't think I'd have an ounce.I, I would've an ounce of anything but rage as somebody who tried to attack them if that came out. You know, and I think that this is what I'm talking about in [00:24:00] terms of like how we categorize this, right? Yeah. Like what actually I. Assuming they disclosed it to their current partner before marrying,Simone Collins: which is important.Yeah. Which isMalcolm Collins: important. Right. You know, and again, I'm not saying that any of them did. I don't, I have no reason to believe that any of them did this. No, I was just giving an example here, right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, before the age of 23, I'd say, okay, throw that out. I'd say and, and keep in mind he was here talking about this camming stuff he was doing when he was like 19 or something, or his fiance.Oh, it was from the past. I dunno what he was.Simone Collins: No, it sounds like he published a blog post about. His wife doing it as she was doing it,Malcolm Collins: whatever. Well, we'll see. We'll, I, I, I can go back and try to find out how old he was when this stuff's happened.Simone was in the right here. It was as he was doing it, which makes it extra indefensible.Simone Collins: All right. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: But in, in terms of stuff like anal play for men I see no reason why this should be shamed.I understand it like it goes against norms. It's not like particularly dangerous. It's, it's something they can do as like a mono monogamy partner. It's also notSimone Collins: even time consuming. [00:25:00] So, yeah. Like if it causes him to orgasmMalcolm Collins: quicker and get the whole thing over with quicker than just do it. Yeah.Simone Collins: Power to the, yeah, absolutely.I, so my, my stance on this is the really big contrast in my view between the left and the right in our modern age is performative activity versus consequentialist activity, and then hedonism versus values alignment. So the way that I look at acceptable sexuality versus non-acceptable sexuality has more to do with are you putting your sexuality above the pursuit of your values?Like, are you spending most of your time dating people and trying to get new sexual partners, or are you spending most of your time doing what it is that that's meaningful to you? How muchMalcolm Collins: are you letting your sexuality distract you from your end goal?Simone Collins: Yeah. Or like be a part of your identity when that's not.At all related to your objective function or if your objective function is hedonism, you just shouldn't be here. You shouldn't, you don't belong here [00:26:00] on the other side.Malcolm Collins: Well, no. I actually argue that, that Jack Murphy, if, if you look at this, he was allowing it to distract him. You know, he was no.Simone Collins: And so that I, I, I hold all of that against him.And also the fact that he was acting on it in a way. That logistically would've taken a lot of time, like sitting down with your girlfriend or fiance and saying, listen, I'm really into this. Listen, I want you to go out and do this. I mean, she's also taking a risk, going out and having an intimate experience with someone from Tinder, like that's not necessarily safe for a woman either.And if, if she's doing it safely. Yeah. There's also a lot of vetting that's very time consuming. You, you, you have SDD testing, you have some, some kind of due diligence that you're hopefully doing on this. Lucky gentleman, so. Like, really? Don't you have better things to do? You really think, like, you really think,Malcolm Collins: but, and this is, this is, this is why.And it's funny again, like all of the stuff that I'm defending here, I would not sit on camera and defend something I actually do for fear that it comes [00:27:00] back to me. So when I'm talking about like the, the like anal simulation and stuff like that, that is not, I, I find it like the idea, the, the, like the smell.I thinkSimone Collins: both of us are too squeamish around. To handle. Like we don't, human bodies aren't our favorite thing. Yeah. Human bodies are not my thing. Like I'm I, well like butt stuff is way too human. Is way too human. That'sMalcolm Collins: always been your famous line was me, which is Malcolm. I'll doSimone Collins: anything for you. But Anal.Malcolm Collins: But anal. But she literally. All the time. Like it's funny that I don't think that's ever been recorded on air or anything that she this, but like within our personal relationship it's always like she'll hold my hands and be like, Malcolm, I'll do anything for you. But anal.Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: And for me, I'm just like, why? Why, why add that when you could just masturbate? Like that's like a gross additional step. Like, even, even,Simone Collins: well, and I think, so my, my additional problem with anal when you have a choice, like when there are other holes available, is the amount of prep and [00:28:00] maintenance you have to do.Yeah, let's go. I'd love to, do we have all the gear, do you think? You know, I've got my hiking shorts. Yeah, I think I have everything. Yeah, let's get the gear. Alright, hike. Yeah. What if it rains? You right. Let's get the ringer. You know.Simone Collins: Yes. So again, when it comes to are you spending your time pursuing and maximizing your values, if you do frequent anal. You're following all these steps. But I also hold that for like, someone who spends an hour a day doing their hair and makeup. That's, that is just as valueless as someone Oh, yeah.Or spends an hour preparing for, oh, somebodyMalcolm Collins: football games or something. You know, uhhuh like,Simone Collins: yeah. So like, I, again, like we, it we are not sex negative. Were was hedonism wasting time.Malcolm Collins: Negative hedonism. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I, I agree with all that. But what I'm saying here is like, when I hear.Like the head of the Proud Boys apparently got canceled for, for, for saying something like this. And I was like, [00:29:00] no, you shouldn't be doing that. Like, because then, you know, you don't know your own kids end up into something like this and you frame this as like this horrifying thing. And then now they're like, okay, well I guess I'm just a sexual monster, may as well great.My sister. You know, and it's like, well,Simone Collins: yeah, suppressing this stuff isn't good. And I think. Knowing about your arousal pathways and possibly even talking about it when it's relevant and whatnot, I have no problem with that. And people shouldn't be shamed for what turns them on and off. But.Yeah, pursuing it, investing a lot of time into its pursuit. You should just be on the project. Well, I actually, this likeMalcolm Collins: if you're being logical puts like the new right. Strictly morally superior to the left around arousal and kinks. Well, because what we're saying is that's what every side thinks.They're, you know, you could, you could have the kinks you want to have, so long as they don't have negative externalities in how you're applying them. And so long as you are not forcing other people to participate in them, which is what you are [00:30:00] doing when you. Dress up that way in public when you publicly blog post about something like this when you you know, like all of this is stuff that's done to involve other people in your kinksSimone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Without their, theirSimone Collins: consent. Yeah. And so that's why OnlyFans is different. It is opt-in. And I think that's, that's one of the really underrated great things about OnlyFans is if you have a. Humiliation, fetish. If you have a, like public exposure or fetish, all those sorts of things. Like this is the place where you can do it and make money and everyone can sense.And I just think that's beautiful. It's wonderful. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Like, oh, here's a great thing. If somebody, and I don't believe the Russian pee tapes are real, if some Russian prostitute really peed on Trump, like whatever I, I like even think was the right as it is right now. These came out, people would be like, whatever, like F off, no oneSimone Collins: cares.Malcolm Collins: Like, I'm glad I wasn't born like that. But alsoSimone Collins: like everyone knows Donald Trump would never, he's such a germ phobe, so it's not Yeah, he's, he'sMalcolm Collins: a [00:31:00] complete germophobe. He would never do that.Simone Collins: He seems like the kind of person who would see like the tiniest stain on a carpet and be like, we need to leave this hotel right now.You think he's gonna, he's gonna do water sports? I know. I alsoMalcolm Collins: think that he's a sexual elitist like me. I, I, I would not be surprised if he has not slept with prostitutes. That he only sleeps with, like, he's, he's wrote articles about sleeping with like, not rote, but that articles written about him, about how he likes like sleeping with his friends' wives and stuff like that.Yeah. Because they'reSimone Collins: high status women. HighMalcolm Collins: status. Yeah. I'm, I'm very, and squirmy Daniel was aSimone Collins: high status like celebrity. So yeah. I think for him, status is hotter than. A lot of other, not status. It'sMalcolm Collins: hotter. I think low status women are disgusting to him. Oh. It's a version thing like myself. Interesting.Yeah. Anyway, so to continue here, Murphy's own admission of the video's existence coupled with his attempt to label the redistribution as revenge porn.Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. The claimMalcolm Collins: debunked as the content was wily, publicly posted. Fueled the narrative. He locked his ex account and deleted his tweets. Furthering, escalated scrutiny.Mm-hmm. His defensive to questions about the [00:32:00] 2015 Cook holding article, particularly lashing out lashing out. The podcast hoster the Sidney Watson is, is what caused people to get angry at him. From the perspective of manosphere letting other men have sex with your girlfriend is definitely a no-no.And we'll earn you the ultimate put down C, which is to say cuck hold. By the way, cuck holds both in our data and other data was more common among conservatives getting cuted by your partner Yes. Than progressives. Yes. Isn't that interesting? Interesting. Murphy's defensiveness poured patrol.Yeah. So the big problem is his defensiveness and sort of how he handled it. Now what is interesting here is his writings were criticized.Its Smith Sandra racist and aligned with alt-right ideologies, which led to his doc. Sing in 2018. Hmm. This revelation that he was a senior manager at DC Public Charter School Board resulted in administrative leave in January, 2018.Simone Collins: Oh.Malcolm Collins: So apparently that's when he started leaving, leaning in to like the Jack Murphy live stuff.Simone Collins: Oh.Malcolm Collins: And [00:33:00] then His in 2021, his profile expanded as he became a Lincoln fellow at the Claremont Institute, a conservative think tank highlighting his influence in right-wing circles. However, December, 2021 brought significant personal revelations. He admitted to authoring in two a 2015 Cook holding article and producing amateur pornography.So the cook holding stuff he had written when he was still like a public democrat. And he had this pseudonym that was doing right wing stuff.Simone Collins: Interesting.Malcolm Collins: I mean, and so it'sSimone Collins: fairly complicated.Malcolm Collins: Yeah a a and then a, during this period, by mid 2022, Jack Murphy live ceased new episodes suggesting a withdrawal from his public role concurrently heal a large Rebel health alliance, a personalized healthcare service, focusing on optimizing longevity and metabolic health.And it's something that is still operational and appears to be his. Mainstream source of income. So one thing I wanna look at is the stuff that got him canceled. Like how actually offensive is this guy, right? Yeah. Everyone says, oh, they're misogyny. And people say Are, we're misogynist and racist [00:34:00]Simone Collins: uhhuh.Malcolm Collins: So he said, if feminists need grape, it is our duty as men to save feminists from themselves. Therefore, I am offering to grape to feminist as an olive branch. Who's asking for trouble? It's asking for trouble. It's provocative, but us saying that like the, the Handmaid's Tale is leftist fantasy and that the data proves it mm-hmm.Could be seen as analogous to that.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Fair. He said if you open her a, you open her mind. He said this is not something I'd agree. Like obviously my wife says I'm not interested in this. And I'm like, yeah, okay. Oh, I'm not interested in either. But but like I, okay another one here is big female myths.Is that they are pure, true says they are hungry, dirty, and enthusiastic about sex. And I love. How feminists don't believe in agency. That is not an offensive statement at all. So he said like almost nothing here, wrong from [00:35:00] what I can see. Well, butSimone Collins: also, no, I think that sweeping statement is not accurate.That is accurate about some women. Definitely not. Oh yeah.Malcolm Collins: Well, okay. Here's one thing that I do have a problem with. He said in one post he wrote I've had s. Sex slaves, little girls and tied them all up. Feminists seek me out to f them, like the patriarchy which the little girls sing, like I can understand it sexualized, but like, maybe you shouldn't say that publicly.Simone Collins: Maybe notMalcolm Collins: like, like I, like, I what I mean is I do not think that he's actually talking about little girls, but I like understandSimone Collins: DDLL. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dlg. Yeah. Sorry.Malcolm Collins: Okay. Here he is. It says he's talked about at an esno state where he said the logistics are necessary in the course of events in which leads us towards an esno state.Simone Collins: Okay.Malcolm Collins: That's, that's actually something that like, I think a lot of people need to think about when you have a large. Amount of immigrants in a country and there might be an a, a desire to preserve that country in the future, like Germany or something. Okay. You gotta think about, well, what [00:36:00] happens to the immigrants that have been imported into the country?Like, how, how does the country, if it changes its mind about thisSimone Collins: mm-hmm.Malcolm Collins: Handle this, like, when it realizes it may eventually go extinct. And like what we mean here is 25% of the German population. Currently came to the country after the 1950s or their, their ancestors did. Mm-hmm. They have a higher fertility rate than the mainstream German population.Like eventually Germans will be replaced. And this isn't like a, I'm not saying like some evil person plan this out or anything like this, but that this might lead to. Ethnic tensions is obvious, and if a far right government came into place, a question of what do you do that isn't genocide is something that is worse establishing so that people don't jump to genocide.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Anyway and, and I mentioned the other one who this had happened to, which I found was interesting is, is, is Glavin McKinneys who, who talked about butt stuff in, in straight men and, and that not being unmanly. And I'm like, well, but like this manly [00:37:00] obsession is pointless in the first place. I think that, well, thatSimone Collins: is, again, it's, it's pretty preening and performative among men as well.And to me it screams of insecurity. So I don't, I, I really don't care like a man who's very comfortable with his sexuality. Like there's nothing more masculine. And whether this is demonstrated by a man or a woman than confidence and comfort with your sexuality and being very open about it, that's a lot of confidence and that's very masculine.And this whole like shaming thing, there's nothing more feminine than public shaming. Absolutely. Yeah. So this whole, it's not masculine stuff is, is very, you know, it doesn't, it's not the right brand. I think it's not the brand that conservatives necessarily want to. Project not, not dunking [00:38:00] on Man's world or anything for theMalcolm Collins: health of keeping people was in their community.If you've created a community, you know, one thing I mentioned to a progressive reporter recently is I was like, well, you know, back when I was a progressive. There were all sorts of ideas and arguments and everything like that that I had, that I knew I needed to keep private. If I was gonna maintain my acceptance within the communitySimone Collins: andMalcolm Collins: within the new right, I'm able to say everything I believe about the world, right?And people will be like, well, I disagree with you here, let's have a debate. But it is friendly, you know? It's like they, they actually want to convince me They're not like, shut up. You're not allowed to say that. Right?Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: And I think that alongside arousal patterns, you know, if 75% of people have some sort of a kink, and we're talking about like 20 kinks per person on average, right?Like if, if you create a community where on average people are supposed to, to to know. That if something came out about them or something like that, that it would, it would be a reason to like shame and, and remove their [00:39:00] platform. And the average influencer in this space feels that way. Like the average conservative influencer by the statistics has something that turns them on, that they're hiding from you.And they would hope that they're friend did dunks or PC in water when they die. Like, the, the fact that that is the case is, i, I think not the way we should structure sexual morality was in the communitySimone Collins: 100%.Malcolm Collins: Because it, it's gonna push people out and it's gonna limit our audience. And instead to say you know, whatever arouses you can arouse you, just don't act on it.Don't live your life in that way and to know, yeah, don't make itSimone Collins: your identity, and don't structure your life around it. Just like with drinking, just like with eating, just like with exercising. All like, if it is not,Malcolm Collins: don't, don't force others to participate in it. Like, this is what trans people do.They're basically forcing others to participate in like their arousal patterns, right? They're like, Hey, everyone needs to, you know, and you, and you could tell like, part of this is about arousal. Like, they're like, none of [00:40:00] it. No, part of it's about arousal. Like, I, I, I get it. Like, for, for some of them it.Definitely when, when the, especially when they don't even try to pass it's like, why are you forcing them to call you by a gender that you're not even attempting to look like? Like, oh, it's because you're getting turned on by having power over them. Right. When, when you have the who is the swimming guy who you wanted to be?I can'tSimone Collins: remember his. Leah Thomas. Leah Thomas.Malcolm Collins: And, and we have reports that, she would go into the locker room and hadn't had surgery, wasn't on anything, you know, and had a maleySimone Collins: was out. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like,Malcolm Collins: Why are you, we used to call this being a flasher. Like, what are you doing? Like you can, you can do this.If you just wanted to be seen as a woman, you wouldn't be doing this clearly. Well, you know,Speaker 17: [00:41:00] Ah!Malcolm Collins: like part of me justSimone Collins: wishes we lived in the Starship Trooper's world of mixed gender restrooms and like everyone has. A male like locker room approach. I'm much more angry thanMalcolm Collins: that because if it's a mixed gender restroom, then then she, she, oh, yeah.Then it's not special. Yeah. Yeah. It's not special. Mm-hmm. She's not forcing herself on other people and that, yeah. See, no, that's, that's the solutionSimone Collins: is you just eliminate all gender neutral bathrooms. You just eliminate all gender neutral spaces and suddenly everything's okay again.Malcolm Collins: Well, and I also like that.Because I think it desexualize the other sexist body, and I, I think that that's erection. We should be going Well, that'sSimone Collins: the point. I mean, in, in societies when things get arbitrarily sexualized, suddenly they are sexualized, whether it's an armpit or an ankle or whatever. And if we just don't make it a thing, guess what?Suddenly, I mean, of course for some people, they're gonna.Malcolm Collins: In the Muslim world, right? Like you, you get like [00:42:00] ankles and stuff like that, sexualized because they're covered up. If you just had everyone like seeing naked males and females normalize, you wouldn't sexualize the other gender much at all. You just, well, I wonder why,Simone Collins: like, perhaps, so in Germany you get a lot more nudist colonies and resorts and stuff.Mm-hmm. And the, the primary kinks that you see associated with Germany are BDSM. They're power dynamic based kinks. Yeah. Instead of like body. Body stuff. Like when I think of Germany and I think of X-rated material, it is always power dynamic related and not related to body parts. And yet when I think of the X-rated material associated with say, India or a lot of other regions that are much more conservative, then it's all about body parts.And that is really interesting.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Is that a good thing? Yeah, I think it is a good thing. I think I, I, I, I think well, because in a good thingSimone Collins: for it not to be an obsession with body parts, but rather power dynamics.Malcolm Collins: Well, maybe, I don't know. Like, here's the funny thing in Germany, like why is it power dynamics that are the thing?It's because body parts are not [00:43:00] shamed. Like they see naked people all the time. Yeah. It's likeSimone Collins: germane. It's like, well, of course, like my, you know,Malcolm Collins: lack quality is shamed in Germany because they're like so obsessively progressive. And so the idea that somebody would have power over another person is what is most,Simone Collins: oh ha.It's a, it's germane,Malcolm Collins: you would say, as a as an arousal pathway.Simone Collins: Interesting. Oh.Malcolm Collins: Anyway, I, I, I find, yeah, this is my thoughts after I think through this is I would generally, like if I had been around when this was happening, I would say, look, the way he handled this was gross. He shouldn't have involved the public in it.The, the way that he was defensive about this was also bad. But if you're talking about something like Gavin McKinneys, he's just like, look, you know, you shouldn't be seen as unmanly because you're, you're doing like prostate stimulation stuff. I'm like,Simone Collins: what? Well, however, however, I think that it is important.To separate your personal life from a professional life, even when yeah, your professional life is about your personal life. That's not true. When people are [00:44:00] influencers and it's all around their personalities, no, it's not about them as people, it's about the caricature that they've chosen to present online.And the caricature that these men had chosen to present was of a, of that time classically conservative male, which didn't do the things that they suddenly started promoting. Mm-hmm. And it was them bringing their personal lives to work. That messed that up. And again, that is something I just wanna abide by.We don't, we don't, we don't abide by that professionally. Don't bring your personal life into work if it doesn't help work. And they made that mistake. And so I, I, I, I still hold them responsible for it. If it came out, for example, that like their, their search history was leaked, then I would not hold them at fault.Malcolm Collins: Hmm. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, like search history being leaked or like, who was it like, not Vosh one, one of the, one of the guys like had it. Pictures of Hint Eye. We've had, we have had Hint Eye leaked on this show, by the way. I accidentally put it on on, not accidentally, it's a joke. There were the, in [00:45:00] the, in the yak, the, the one about Yankees, the mild D Oh yeah, no, youSimone Collins: put,Malcolm Collins: you put the put hint tie on the show and other people are like, oh yeah, that's a great one.I know that one. They're like, I didn't expect him to actually put it on the screen. The, oh, just for people who don't know, it's called like my childhood friend. It's broken or something. And it's a, it's a story. It's super awesome where they have a, a, like, a hint, I story about a, a ga ga, what's the word, G ya.Guru girl, which is like when the Japanese women like do their face different colors and like, have lots of piercings and MalibuSimone Collins: Barbie, Japanese editionMalcolm Collins: garish outfits. And it's, it's apparently you learn. I, I, I decided to read the whole thing after putting in the episode. I was like, I gotta make sure this actually isn't like bad.Apparently you learned. That in the past she was assaulted. And she dressed this way because she wanted to feel powerful and like reclaim a sense of power. And then she meets a childhood friend and they fall in love. And then he, he does nice things for her. And over time [00:46:00] she learns that she doesn't need to dress this way to feel like she's powerful and she becomes a mom and she has kids.And the, the series ends. When her kid meets another kid playing in a park, and this is supposed to be a new childhood friendship that continues to cycle. Aw. Well, it's, it's, it's sad at the end actually, because they're commenting on how they, they don't know anyone who has kids their kids ages and no one's having kids anymore.Simone Collins: Well, yeah, but they're gonna be the new culture that generates. Or sorry that, that inherits Japan. So that's, yeah, allMalcolm Collins: of the actual, like, cant I, like, not safer work scenes happen after that scene. It's, it's, that's so weird. There's this whole like, lifeSimone Collins: arc that's super wholesomeMalcolm Collins: and then suddenly it becomes, well it created the wholesome like arc and in like the, the not safer work scenes are clearly supposed to happen at various parts of the life arc.Simone Collins: Oh.Malcolm Collins: Because obviously she gets pregnant, but I just wantSimone Collins: to establish that like, these are, this is part of a wholesome. Loving relationship because that's part of the erotic experience for the reader.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. This is, this is, this is people who want the erotic [00:47:00] experience of a wholesome, loving relationship that is, yeah.And, and youSimone Collins: can't get that full stimulus if you don't have the backstory that proves that that's happening. 'cause it's really hard to like lay that expedition exposition out in like three frames. That's really funny. That's really funny. But I don't,Malcolm Collins: I don't, I don't want, you know, there's like 215 panels of this.It's like Really? Oh my, my, geez. I, but I, I want that to be when Malcolm accidentally leaked tint tie episode that he, he had the that, that, that one where everyone No, I don't, ISimone Collins: don't think that's when it came out though, that you have in the, in the past Consum Penta, because you've talked in the past about the fact that you like, or both of us agree that in an ideal world.No porn would depict real people.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, I'm a hundred percent for only. And you expressed then that you foundSimone Collins: real porn to be extremely disgusting. So I'm pretty sure that anyone who was actually paying attention at the time would be like. Oh, then I guess Malcolm likes head tie because like, what else are you gonna like if you [00:48:00] can't,Malcolm Collins: but if you're who, why?I find it disgusting. I just can't like look at a real person in, in that sort of a position. There's somebody, somebody'sSimone Collins: daughter and or son. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Like this is somebody's daughter, somebody wife, somebody's, they probably haveSimone Collins: kids. This is, it's rough.Malcolm Collins: Like, this is gross. Like this, this is a human life that we're talking about here.Like why is this okay to get off? No, I, I think it's, it's, it's it's rough. I don't know if other people have that reaction. Like I maybe, maybe other people don't. Maybe other people are just like, no, but like in this context, it's not them, it's just a picture of them. But like for me, it's like,Simone Collins: I don't know.Like it's, I, I think it, I was just thinking about. You know, would I feel different if they were someone, if it was you? Like, would I feel uncomfortable? But like then if, if ever I was watching even video of like, you made something for me privately or something, I'd be like, oh, what if this leaks? I'd be so uncomfortable.And I think I think about that a lot. When I think about the other people, I'm like, oh, like. How old are they now? Are people [00:49:00] comparing their younger body to their older body? Like, what, what, what, what if their mother sees this? And you just start thinking way too much about it, and then you start thinking about yourself.And that's one of the reasons I think why many female audiences like. Ywe, which is man on man drawn like manga and stories. It's sometimes explicit and sometimes not because at that point you're totally taken outta the situation. Not only is it drawn, so you're not thinking about humans in general, but there are no women at all.So you're not thinking about you as a woman. Am I pretty enough? I think that there's some, there's a big theme in many genres of erotic material. That are instead of optimized around specific arousal pathways, optimized around avoiding specific, if not discussed pathways, then anxiety pathways.Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I'm exactly the same way.What a lot of you is, is now the AI stuff has gotten good, I don't even need to worry that like a human, like, like drew itSimone Collins: and Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Humans were involved at some point in the process. Yeah. But I don't need to think about some guy in his basement drawing this. Right?Simone Collins: Yes, that's [00:50:00] true. That is kind of a turnoff when you think about it.Malcolm Collins: ThanksSimone Collins: for ruining that for me.Malcolm Collins: But I, I also point out with all of this, you know, the, the, the reason I say all this is I'm like, okay, so what if some guy is actually like a sabi guy and he is in a relationship and his partner is into this and, and they're into like him being a sub in the bedroom. Right. You know, like Uhhuh, are we supposed to be like.That guy can't be a good man. They can't be a good masculine man. They can't be a good dad. Like I think what we need to say is like, look, if you're a Suby guy, and this is why, because I feel bad for all of the Suby guys because there's like a lot of Suby guys out there, right? Yeah. I mean, likeSimone Collins: the numbers indicate that there are a lot of outMalcolm Collins: there.If you are a savvy guy, that doesn't mean that you cannot be the perfect masculine man. You can be a good dad who is there for your kids. You can be in a, a relationship with your wife that is stable and supporting and when the lights are off [00:51:00] and you're doing your own thing. That, that, that can be your own thing.And I don't think that we as a community benefit from those guys feeling in constant. Fear that they are gonna have everybody hate them if they ever found out about that. I think that that is not a healthy thing to, and thatSimone Collins: fear leads to a lot of avoidant problematic behavior. That's like, that's why you see this problem in states where porn is like banned or deeply looked negatively upon by the predominant religion that you see much more problematic behavior.And yeah, this is definitely something, shaming is the wrong thing to do, but not so shaming the fact that you feel it bad, but pursuing it at the cost of your productivity. Also bad. That should, that should probably, yeah. And if not shamed met with a, like the same kind of concerned reaction. [00:52:00] That you react to someone who has an eating problem or a drinking problem or some other, like a gambling problem, right?Yeah. Like those are things like, oh, you're disgusting. You gamble, you sports gamble. You have a sports gambling app. I can't believe it. I I'm never gonna be your friend. And you can't be an influencer. No. It's like. Hey, dude, are you okay? Like this? Can this, you're, you're ruining your savings. Like you're not gonna achieve your life goals if you keep doing this.And that is, I thinkMalcolm Collins: it's such a great way to frame it, is that we should, we should focus on these sorts of sexual prohibitions in the same way we focus on like gambling prohibitions.Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.Malcolm Collins: They're very, very serious. And they can hurt other people around them, but you need to, you need to frame them with you know, compassion in this way and be like, Hey like do you have a problem here?Instead of, you know, one of the funniest things that everyone's like, people thought that like you weren't sexually gratifying me enough and that like they, they sent you emails about that.Simone Collins: Yes. I've received multiple messages from people who are like, are they usually for women or men? It's been [00:53:00] both actually.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I, I can tell you that is not the case. No. Now they'reSimone Collins: gonna write to me again and be like, he's saying that this is his call for help, Simone. This is his call for help. He's calling for help right now. Understand how inefficient sex is. I understand. I don't think they understand.Yeah, I don't think we understand that.Like we're at the precipice, the turning point of the entire future of humanity, and that every hour that we spend doing something indulgent is an hour that we're not maybe tipping the scales in favor of human flourishing instead of extinction. Hello. People,Malcolm Collins: timelines we're so short in terms of like what we're building and everything like that.I just feel like. Like, do they not get that every because it, we're working on the same project together. So like, if I take Simone's time for like an hour of sex. Yeah. Like you, you only get so many hours a day. Like, it's not that we never do it, but it's, it's such a waste. Yeah.Simone Collins: Anyway, [00:54:00] that's we'll see what they have to say next.Malcolm Collins: Well, I, I dunno, I, I love it how you, for a while were like really acting weird about this with me. Like, I was like,Simone Collins: Malcolm, whenever you want, like we're here, we can block out time.Malcolm Collins: And I was like, Simone, 'causeSimone Collins: y'all got in my head.Malcolm Collins: I was like, no, you do not understand how much I appreciate the work you're doing.Right. But wheneverSimone Collins: you want, Malcolm.Malcolm Collins: I was like, what is this worth more than the current Andreesen application? The current survival and flourishing? I know it's not, I know, but like,Just in caseSimone Collins: this is like one of those double reverse blind. No, but it's like,Malcolm Collins: like literally, what am I putting off for this?We've got. Four kids that we're raising as well. Like Yeah. Of which one of 'em woke up, so I gotta gotta, all right. Love you to De Simone. I love you too. What am I doing for dinner tonight? Oh, yeah. It's a crumble.Simone Collins: Yeah. But also, I'm gonna try something that I've never tried before, that I'm very curious about it.I'm gonna try it too. [00:55:00] Shout out to Margaret for telling me it's possible.Malcolm Collins: What are you gonna tell me?Simone Collins: You will find out. What is it? If it succeeds tonight, I'm not gonna tell you.Malcolm Collins: Okay. I'm notSimone Collins: gonna tell you. But it is something that you and I both like and that we can't get in America.Malcolm Collins: By the way. Oh, scotch eggs.Simone Collins: That's what I'mMalcolm Collins: gonna say. Ah, wait. Oh my God. But okay, so if you're gonna do scotch eggs, don't bother with frying the rice. Just do like regular rice and I'll mention the crumble. No,Simone Collins: no, no, no. Because what if they really don't turn out? This is my first time tryingMalcolm Collins: regular rice with crumble and toy sauce will be fine.Simone Collins: Malcolm, just let me, let me do my thing, but let me go now so I can actually prep everything. I love you. All right. Love you to death. Why? have this permanent crease in my eyebrow region, but I realize now you do too. SoMalcolm Collins: you have a what? Val region.Simone Collins: Permanent crease. Like a little look at. Look at your furrow lines. Even when you're not furrowing, they're, they're still there. And that's the problem. Well, not the problem. It's just naturally part of [00:56:00] our aging process.Malcolm Collins: Well, I wonder, do you have, do you have the, the smile lines yet?Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Well,Simone Collins: that's your fault. That is your fault. The furrowing is my fault. The smiling is, is your fault because you make my life too fricking awesome. And we laugh way too much.Malcolm Collins: No matter how big your wrinkles get, I will not leave you. So don't you worry.Okay, we'llSimone Collins: see. We'll just see how, how big they need to get.Malcolm Collins: No, we'll see if you stopped being able to have kids, that's where things get dicey, Jesus.Simone Collins: Just in case anyone thought that you were being nice and charitable. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com

In this episode, we dive into the alarming state of religion in the United States with shocking statistics and insights. We discuss the significant decline in church attendance and religiosity among Americans, highlighting key findings from various studies, including the Pew Research Center's Religious Landscape Study. The conversation reveals a startling drop in religious affiliation, particularly among younger generations, and examines how different religious groups, such as Mormons and Catholics, are faring. We also explore the implications of these trends for the future of religion in America and the potential societal impacts. Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be discussing the horrifying state of religion in the United States. I'll be discussing some statistics I found, and you'll be discussing the statistics you found. Mm-hmm. The fifth one that I found that was shocking, where there was a recent study where they looked at where people were going in the United States using cell phone data.Mm-hmm. And they found out that despite 21 to 24% of Americans saying they attend church weekly, only 5% do. Which is way lower rate of religiosity than anyone expected.Simone Collins: Why would you lie about going to church on a survey? We'll get to that when we get to the interesting stuff. What is your, the gist of what I found is that religion is literally dying in the United States in every measurable way, and specifically by dying.I mean that the only people who still had God were the old ones. This isn't even about young people losing their faith. They never had it.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and this is something that people really get [00:01:00] wrong, is they look at the pupil where it showed religion going, not going down this year in the United States, and they think that that's an indication that the erosion of traditional religion in the United States is over.It is not. But let's go into the dataSimone Collins: so with regard to the United States and what the pew, and by the way, you should definitely check out the interactive tools with this pew research to give some background, has a religious landscape study.This spans over 17 years. They first did it in 2020, 2007. Then they did it in 2014, then they were gonna do it again in 2021, you know, every seven years. But then. You know, pandemic. So they actually did it 20, 23, 24. So you get this really wide span and you're able to see really how quickly over this 17 year period, we lost God.So, basically what happened was we went from 16% of Americans being religiously unaffiliated, like, you know, not that many to over 29%. So almost, almost a third of Americans just aren't religiously affiliated. And I would say it's [00:02:00] gonna be higher than that because they considered other religions to be things like Unitarian Universalists and spiritual people of like new age and that no, like dangling crystals does not make you religious.I'm so sorry. What? People fallMalcolm Collins: into that category other.Simone Collins: It's, it's like one, 1%, so very, very little. Now 2% actually. So it was 1% around 20 2007, and then around 2% in 2014. But I still, you know, that's. That ain't religious. So everything, I thinkMalcolm Collins: before we get into the statistics, the reason why a lot of people from religious communities aren't seeing this is because they are from religious communities.Yeah. And definitionally, it's the people when they leave your community. I. That they are disappearing from your religion so you no longer see them, you know, when they move or whatever. Mm-hmm. This is and, and people when they deconvert from religions, don't do it for the reasons people think.The, the number one reason why people stop attending church is just because they moved and they didn't, they didn't start going. Yeah, [00:03:00] because it was,Simone Collins: it was a community thing. It was a friend group thing. It's very similar to our models of friendship where you have. Convenience friends who are basically just the people that you were friends with because they lived right next to you.And I think a lot of people grew up, and especially this is the old people who are now dying, they were only religious because it was convenience, religion, that being a part of your community kind of mandated your being religious or showing up at church. 'cause that was also culturally normative. And you get a lot of side eye.Suspicion if you didn't show up at church. So they did it, but it was convenience religion. It wasn't utility religion. People didn't practice religion because they, on the whole, because they found it really helped them perform better in life, even if it did. And so,Malcolm Collins: and, and, and so this is why when Covid came and people started doing religious services from home mm-hmm.And all of these communities stopped, many of them never really fully reopened. That 5% number that I gave you that was measured before Covid.Simone Collins: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. There is one really interesting statistic that actually runs against a lot of what you've said so far.Okay. About Mormons. That [00:04:00] gives me a lot of hope for Mormon. So when you dive into this research and you look at at age distribution among different religious groups, every religious group over time is seeing an erosion of their 18 to 29-year-old range, which is really bad because again, what this, this research is finding is that.Religion is, is going down, not because, and I know you're, you're gonna argue it's because people are like actually changing their behavior over time. What Pew argues is that, no, it's just that the religious people are dying and the younger people aren't religious at all. And yet when you look at Latter Day Saints, Mormons.25% of Mormons are 18 to 29, which is a pretty healthy ratio. Cons, and what, what was it in the past? So it's actually better than it ever was during the survey period in 2007, 24% of thinks were in that range. And in 2014 it actually dipped. It was 21%. Now it's 25%.Malcolm Collins: That's really [00:05:00] impressive.Simone Collins: So I'm, I'm actually seeing, and it's subtle, but they also just signs of recovery because actually what we are seeing in, in sort of, inverse is we're seeing fewer proportionately Mormons in the 30 to 49 range.Yeah. And I feel like there's this millennial. Millennial slump that the LDS church had that lost a lot of people. And I feel that they've developed some cultural technologies to start recovering from that. And or the LDS community started realizing early people who left or they saw people who left and they're like, wow, it's not working out for them.I'm gonna stay in, I'm not gonna jump the ship. So youMalcolm Collins: look. The numbers that she has here. Sorry, this is important to get to because you, you're just, you're saying the graph says something, but a lot of people listen on podcasts, so we've gotta explain what the graph says. Yeah. So, if you're looking at the elderly population.Within the latest measurement, the 23 to 24 range, it was 20% in the two. Previous to 2014 and 2017, it was much lower only 15% and 16% [00:06:00] respectively. Now that's really striking when you consider that now they're dealing with a bigger, much older 65 plus range in much younger, under 29 range, 18 to 29 range.Which implies that there was sort of a baby boom within the LDS church for one generation. No, andSimone Collins: this is really important because just to give you some perspective, okay, in 23 to 24, 20 5% of Mormons were in this 18 to 29 range. They were young. Compared to that, to Catholics in the 23 to 24 range, 14% of Catholics were in the 23 to 24% range and 28%.Basically a third plus another 29%. So basically two thirds of Catholics are over 50 years old with 29% being 50 to 64 and 28% being 65 or older.Malcolm Collins: It gets worse when you look at the historic data because if you go to 2007, not that long ago, only 16% of Catholics were over 65 and now it's 28%. Yeah. [00:07:00] Catholics are dyingSimone Collins: and this is, this is huge.' cause I mean, I, I, I'm, I, so I do have hope for Catholics because I think that there are a couple very small communities. That are very high fertility that could come to represent the new version of the Catholic Church. However, I also have my doubts in this model. You know how a lot of people are like, oh, the future will be inherited by the Amish.It's hard to even find Anaba. Mm-hmm. Let alone like, I mean there's on Amish, there's Mennonites, Mennonites, there's heater Hutterites, right? Like there's literally different subgroups. But of all the Anabaptists in general. It's, it's around 1%, maybe less. And this could be a polling issue, right? Like it's probably harder Of theMalcolm Collins: US population, you mean?Simone Collins: Of the US population? Yeah. If you look in this, itMalcolm Collins: doesn't matter if they're 1%, if they're, if they're growing at the rate that they're growing now, like they'll be a hugeSimone Collins: chunk very shortly. Yeah. But I don't know, I don't know if they're actually growing at that rate. I just, they're, they're so small. I, I'm really putting all my hope inMalcolm Collins: are we can look at the data.This happened in another country, specifically Israel. So Israel, right now, if you look at the Hawaii population, you know how [00:08:00] they don't. Have to participate in war and stuff like that. Another 16% of the population. Yeah. The reason why they got the war exception was because when they first went to and applied for this, there were like 10,000 of them or something.They were basically, they're like, oh, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. And now they've exploded. So yeah, this literally has happened in other countries. Simone that's, that's, that's the power of compounding interestSimone Collins: maybe. ButMalcolm Collins: I'm also not, the, don't really matter because they don't have technology.So no matter how big they get, they're not gonna be a force that can impose its will on their neighbors. So you don't really need to think about them. And because they're pacifists, they can't defend themselves. If anybody wants to, like, if they don't have the state protecting them, it's, it's, it's irrelevant.But the, the Catholics here. I find to be really fascinating how much they're arose. I actually, it's so muchSimone Collins: worse than I thought. I would not have guessed it was that bad.Malcolm Collins: Well, it, it's, it's bad for the, the, remember that phone survey I, I found so, only only 2% of Catholics [00:09:00] actually attended church Weekly.Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, no. So here's, here's the thing too though, and like to put things in perspectives, at least from a starting position, Catholics are coming off from a, a stronger position. So 19% of Christians in the US which. To be fair, only make up 62% of Americans, but of those 19% are Catholic and only 2% are LDS.So, you know, that's a,Malcolm Collins: but again, this doesn't really matter. I, again, you, you have to look at this in terms of compounding returns. A a as I've pointed out, if we have eight kids and they have eight kids, and you do that for just 11 generations, we have more descendants than there are people on earth today.When you're starting with existing large populations. There was a one population that I was looking at of Hutterites and I, and I'll. Put the exact gross numbers after, but I, I seem to remember that they grew I think it was something like. God, I can't remember. I wanna say like three, 350% in just like 50 years.Mm-hmm. Like you can [00:10:00] explode really. And then keep in mind when you're growing on top of that, it's compounding. No, no. YouSimone Collins: make a fair point. And you also haveMalcolm Collins: compounding collapses.Simone Collins: And also Yeah, like when, when there's nobody left. All that matters is who's still there and they'll still be there.So that's good for them as long as they don't change. Yeah. But this, another, theMalcolm Collins: thing with Catholics is, and to to, to focus on this Yeah. Is, is they internally don't accept how bad things are for them. They don't accept their deconversion rates. Yeah. They refuse to, they don't accept they're low fertility rates.They're like, the ones that I can see are fine. And as I've said before, this is like looking at a battlefield and being like, my troops are purposely healthy. And I'm like, what about all the dead ones? And they're like, why would I count them among my ranks? It's, it's survivorship bias. The, the, the Catholics who matter are the ones who are deconvert.It's, and, and, and leaving. It's not the ones who are there. But I was actually just talking with a Catholic earlier today. He's a fan of ours. And he was sort of asking like what he should do as his future. He really wants kids and a family. But he was thinking about the priesthood, you know, and he knows like this is a, a challenge and a choice.And this is again, one of the problems. Oh boy. This is just. [00:11:00] Remember how we liked the opus Day before? Yeah. Did you know 30% of the Opus day are silhouettes? Oh, thisSimone Collins: was the guy who, so he's the same guy who wrote to us about this.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is he got the guy in Poland? No, no. Different guy.Different guy. This is a Oh, totally. We have lots of Catholic fans. Okay. Anyway, the other Catholic fan was thinking about what he's gonna do with his future. The guy in Poland actually had some really interesting points. Both, yeah. Like, is actually pretty bad for family creation because they gender isolate people.Mm-hmm. And they have 30% celibate and they're just more focused on this like performatively. And so I went to this guy, I was like, well, what if you like. Pitched the Vatican on starting an order that takes, oh snap. The opus day's idea that you can dedicate yourself like faithfully to like anything you're doing in your daily life.Yeah, but refocuses it entirely on the sacrament, just beingSimone Collins: apparent.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, REFA not, not being a parent explicitly, but the next generation. Mm-hmm. So what you would do is not just be a parent yourself, but you would like religiously put together things like, like [00:12:00] daycares was in existing, like he was talking about a parish that was about to shut down near him.And I'm like, well, what if you, you know, build a, a daycare facility in there? You know, what if you find people to, in their free time within this order. As a way of giving back to the church man, this what have you, you know, this is the type of thing that the church could get really excited about.Simone Collins: Yeah, actually that's, I mean, I think it's worth pitching. It fitsMalcolm Collins: Catholic ideology.Simone Collins: Like we should pitch that to the person that we've spoken with in the past. He's a priest.Malcolm Collins: Who shoulda not. Yeah. We could connect, we should pitch it to them.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Be like, yeah, because I was like a wow to think I have connections in the Vatican, but Yeah.Okay. But yeah, connect them because I think that that, that it's, it's completely conducive with Catholic's current belief system. It would work. It's, it's something they desperately need. Yeah. It works with their theology. And so why not just put that together and then you can build this like.Prenatal as Catholic sect. And you already have the justification from the [00:13:00] opus day that lay people can, can, can like, live a life of, of, of sacrifice. Like what if you canonized this idea of sort of like living martyrdom to the next generation.Simone Collins: I like it. Oh, very. Techno puritan. Of course. I'm gonna share with you one more thing that I think is relevant at least to our, I told you so narrative that came from this.Pew study, which is that the urban monoculture is spreading and has really effectively spread from the university system in more elite parts of society to mainstream society. Mm-hmm. And that is you can see this when you look at the levels of education and then the loss of Christianity. So when you look at these numbers for the beginning of this survey in 2007.The percentage of people with high school or less as their education was 60 some, 66% Christian 5% other religions, and then 27% religiously unaffiliated. And then by 2014 I, I guess they [00:14:00] don't have the most recent stuff. It went to 75%. Were Christian which is really interesting. Like they sort of became like the uneducated became more Christian.But when you look at people with postgraduate degrees 56% of them were Christian. So very, very few, like from the very beginning, oh, sorry. When you look at 2014 and. People with graduate degrees, 62% of them are Christian. So almost like the sort of level of average Americans today. Mm-hmm. And I feel like this has very much trickled down to mainstream society now.It's even, even fewer. Only 56% of people with postgraduate degrees are Christian. But compared to today with high school or less, that's, that's 66% in other ways. In other words, the gap between postgraduate. Americans and high school or less were Americans was actually higher in terms of religiosity in 2014.Mm-hmm. It was 10% [00:15:00] different in terms of Christianity versus 16% in 2014. And I feel that that difference in like wow. Postgraduate people were a whole lot less religious. That difference in 2014 decreasing is a sign of basically just the urban monoculture spreading from just elite culture to all culture.So even people without high school. Wait, you saidMalcolm Collins: that the uneducated became more Christian, so that's, that's almost like the urban monoculture. Sorry, ISimone Collins: got it wrong. I was looking at the, the wrong tabs. 'cause there's a lot, there's a lot of tabs here. So, okay. Then say it correctly. Yeah. In 20 14, 70 5% of people with high school or less were Christians.Now only 66% consider themselves to be Christian and with postgraduates in 2014 waiting for it to load. Come on. Okay. Okay. And with postgraduates in 20 14, 60 2% were Christian. Now only 56% are, but as you can see, the gap got narrower. And I think that's just a [00:16:00] sign of the urban monoculture spreading from the university system to, yeah, mainstream culture.Things have just become a lot more normalized. Another thing just that's important to point out. In this, this survey finding is on every area that they measured religiosity, people were moving in a less religious direction. So it came with identity, it came with beliefs, and it came with practices. So people aren't going to church or praying as much as your data shows.They are not identifying as religious as your data shows. And they don't believe religious things, which. Part of me would've wanted to think, okay, well people still identify as Christian or they identify as Jewish. They're just not going, you know, they're not actively practicing. Or they maybe don't even believe, but they, you know, they still call themselves that.And then the final important thing to note from this pew in data, which is interesting and does kind of feed into the natal con, we have to protect the west narrative, which is surprising because it's not what [00:17:00] I expected, is it? Only Christianity seeing a decline in the United States When you look at the United States in general.Yeah. Or we do that.Malcolm Collins: I wanna go into the Protestant data because I find it interesting. Okay. The Evangelical Protestants. Yeah. These are Protestants who identify as evangelical Protestants and they're actually in. As bad a situation is the Catholics. So not, maybe not as bad, but, but pretty bad. No, it'sSimone Collins: pretty pathetic.No, no, no. Don't, don't, don't understateMalcolm Collins: it. This is embarrassing. Look at evangelical Protestants. They're 18 to 29 percentage is the same as Catholics. 14%. Yeah. It's pathetic. And, and they're over 65 percentage is 27%, which is the onlySimone Collins: group I saw that had me thinking, oh, you guys are getting it together.Is is Mormon. Period.Malcolm Collins: Period. They're, they're over 50% over the age of 50 right now. Like that's crazy. Like well over 50% again, andSimone Collins: because they're dying. And that's what you see in these numbers is it's like the skew is shifting to old people. Because literally as this survey has progressed over this 17 year period.People's views have stayed the same. It's just that the people who had faith areMalcolm Collins: going to dieSimone Collins: soon.Malcolm Collins: The Protestant [00:18:00] numbers are more stable than the, than the Catholic numbers in that if you go back to 2007, they were already at only 16% of their population, you know, being 18 to 29. Yeah. So basically there isn't something new happening 2007 to now in the Protestant population.Yeah. The evangelical Protestant population. And note here, like I've talked about this, I've, I've said the evangelical movement is. Dying. Like, yeah. Like the extremist, like Quiverfull, Protestant, et cetera they don't really exist within this generation in large numbers. They're not a major voting block anymore.They're not like, they used to be like super, super, super important to American politics. Yeah. They defined their Republican party. And they have been replaced by four C Channelers, I guess you could say. Like, yeah. As, as like the key voting block before ChansSimone Collins: aren't exactly known for having faith.Also, this has serious implications for Tism in general for, for America's birth rates in general. Because the, the research also tracked things like marital status and it is very clear that there is a correlation [00:19:00] between religion and marriage. So as of 2007, I mean, it was very stark. 81% of married people in the United States were Christian.Only 14% were religiously unaffiliated. 80 Wait, 21%? What? What? 81%. So eight out of 10. Eight outta 10 married people in the United States were CED Western Dinner, or Americans are Christian and Oh, in general, on that year.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like that. That justing means nothing without knowing how many,Simone Collins: yeah, yeah. Sorry.Let give you the comparison.Oh, come on.Let me find this. It's a Littley.Malcolm Collins: No, you literally just Google it.Simone Collins: I don't know what's, okay. 67%. 67%. No. Hold on. Go to US data. Oh, there we go. Okay. In 20 17, [00:20:00] 70 8% of Americans in general. Were Christian, 81% were married, so there wasn't that much of a gap. Let's go to 2014. Suddenly 76% of married people are Christian, and yet the US population that is Christian goes down to 71.The gap is getting bigger. Then 20 23, 20 24, only 62% of Americans are Christian, and yet we're, we're seeing a slight uptick. 68% of married people are Christian, and I'm, what this says to me. Is it the thing that is keeping people getting married is religion.Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.Simone Collins: In more cases than not. Which is, which is meaningful.So we're gonna see if fewer marriages, because we're gonna see fewer cultural frameworks that make marriage make sense. Especially in a country like in the United States, where for a lot of middle and lower income people getting married gives you a tax penalty. Like, it's not, it's not a culturally logical, like in the absence of religion, it doesn't make [00:21:00] sense to get married if that makes Yeah.Like just, and that's, that's insane. But like we live in a country that actually penalizes marriage in many cases, especially for normal people, not like, not for very rich people. So this is going to hurt birth rates, just period. And it, it makes me really sad because this, this is getting reflected in, in rates of sex and everything else.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you are you were gonna give data on the fertility rates of non-Christians in the United States and what's happening with them?Simone Collins: Oh, like the parental status of non-Christians? No, you saidMalcolm Collins: the only groups that are dropping are Christians. And then you were going to talk about groups that weren't Christians that are not dropping.Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. No, no, no, no. So just in general, an important thing to note with this research is that. The fairly low, but, but now apparently constant percentage of non-religious people, or sorry other religious people has sort of stayed the same. So in 2007, 5% of US [00:22:00] adults were other religions. This includes Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, and then what We wouldn't count Unitarian Universalist and New Age and Native American religions.Then in 2014, it actually jumped up to 6%, and in 20 23, 20 24, it jumped to 7%. So the only reason it jumped to 7%, by the way, is that we now have more people identifying as New Age and Unitarian Universalists. So I don't actually, I think a lot of people would be like, oh, that means we're getting more Muslim immigrants or like more Jews.No. Those have stayed constant. They have not changed. 2% of the other religions are Jewish. That's just stayed the same. Same for 1% for Buddhist, 1% for Muslim, there was a slight increase in Muslims because in 2007, fewer or less than 1% of American adults were mu, or of the 5% that were other religions were Muslim.It switched to just 1%. But the problem is that like, is that, is that 1% ofMalcolm Collins: Americans or 1% of the 5%,Simone Collins: 1% of the 7% that are other religions are Muslims [00:23:00] now.Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. So very small. So there'sSimone Collins: very, very few Muslims, extremely few Muslims extremely few Buddhists. And then, and then actually a, a way more than there should be new age and we would argue and hearing universalists.Yeah. So one new religions we, I would argue have not actually increased because you shouldn't count UUs and New Age Crystal. People as religious that is religiously unaffiliated and being into a trend. And I think that that's important to note because it runs counter to my world model that like western civilization isn't falling and like Christians are doing just fine.I mean, Christians are still a huge percentage of Americans, but. They are eroding. But I also, like other religions are coming from nowhere and they're basically just holding steady. They're not increasing. So I don't see this as real as Christians being replaced by any stretch of the imagination. However, these other religions aren't tanking in the same way that [00:24:00] many Christian religions are, except for the Mormons, which by, you know, we keep tank.We like. We keep saying they're doing a terrible job. They're saying a huge exodus. They're bouncing back.Malcolm Collins: They're, they're taking this situation seriously. Mm-hmm. Which I think is why they're doing well. Yeah. Like they're actually like sitting down and doing like, what the Catholic should be doing is like starting new orders based on having kids and stuff like that.Like, they're the, they actually do this stuff. Yeah. Like when. When their fertility rates started to drop. A lot of Mormon things that we think of as, as having been around forever are new cultural technology. Like the singles wards were invented in the 19 seventies. Like, that's, that's not that old, that's not like always been a part of Mormonism.Simone Collins: Yeah. And it's, and actually those, it was the perfect time to do it because it was during the age of. Female professional empowerment. It was during the age when people were not as tethered to their childhood communities, which I think made getting married a little bit easier. So the church either intuitively or very intentionally and logically saw where the headwinds and tailwinds were and [00:25:00] decided to create new forms of institutions that would make it possible for people who were not moored.Malcolm Collins: Yeah.Simone Collins: To a single community and who had careers to find someone, which is so cool.Malcolm Collins: Like a question I have internally is like, why are Catholics not able to take this as seriously as Mormons or treat this as seriously? Yeah. And I have a hypothesis.Simone Collins: Okay.Malcolm Collins: It has to do with how their central leadership is decided.Mm. So both Catholics and Mormons have a central church that could disseminate these messages if it had a mind to, okay. The Mormons Central Church, the people who end up is the, like prophets and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. And like the, the head people in the central church a lot of them have a background in.Bus business, like they show their company. They're, they're like bane type people. Oh. They're like,Simone Collins: yeah. McKenzie type people. They're private equity people. They own businesses. Yeah. They're privateMalcolm Collins: equity type people. And, and so when they come into religion, they're, they're viewing it like a giant company, right?Like they're trying to, to make money and grow and think long term, right? Yeah. You know, that's, that's their goals. The Catholic leadership is made up entirely of people who have dedicated their entire life to theological [00:26:00] study. Hmm. Not just that, but celibate people who have dedicated, it's, it's almost like lifetimeSimone Collins: politicians making policy versus business people making policy.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And, and because of that, the issue of fertility collapse is just not something that's on their mind. And when it's brought up to them, they would believe that they have some form of theological protection from its implications, I believe. Hmm. You know, because they're relating to this all through, through the lens of theology rather than through the lens of like, well, let's be practical about the situation.Now, Mormon fertility rates have taken a hit, but like, as you've pointed out here, they appear to be already riding the ship, like the, the, the, the torpedo hit and the ship is now coming back online. Whereas. Yeah, this is interesting. Evangelical Protestants, the reason I don't mention them is 'cause they don't have a centralized structure, so they can't disseminate new messages.Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. And they're kind of, they're, they're unmoored and listless and they're isolated communities.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So if you, if you're like, what's going to replace them? Well, I hope something like techno Puritanism [00:27:00] replaces them, to be honest. Like, I'd be okay with that. I like, I, we don't actively proselytize, but I like the the structure of this.And I think that and when I say something like, what's replacing the evangelical movement? The Jordan Peterson movement the the, the various new forms of Christianity that are more melds of secular self-help slash Protestantism. Mm-hmm. Mixed with religiosity. These, this, this is where that community is going.And I see Techo Puritanism as an iteration of that, that's more extreme. And, and, and more dedicated and more is sort of like the techno puritanism is like the opus day to whatever Jordan Peterson is. You know, like if Jordan Peterson represents the Jesuit branch of this Protestant faction, we would represent the Opus Day faction.Mm-hmm. Just like the way more intense about it, the way more extreme in expectations. And, and like, I think that, that, that works. But the thing about Protestantism is, is unlike other groups, you [00:28:00] know, you don't have some higher group deciding what's canon and what's not canon. Mm-hmm. You need to go out there on the ground and convince people of your perspective or out breed them.Simone Collins: Yeah. And parents especially, I mean, parents see what's happening to their kids on the ground. They're the ones who know what their kids need as they go through whatever religious system is rearing them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. I mean, it's it's worse than I thought.Malcolm Collins: Well, I was, I was surprised by the e how cooked evangelical Protestantism is.Like I've mentioned it before, but like, it's something you don't see 'cause nobody really molds. I don't know. But yeah.Simone Collins: Yeah. It's so much of the content that we create, you know, about the new right. About the interesting religious movements. Where are the evangelicals? Where are the influencers in this space?They don'tMalcolm Collins: come. Like, I literally, like, I have been involved in politics a lot recently in terms of meeting with political influencers and people who work in politics. I haven't met a single evangelical project. Yeah.Simone Collins: They're just not there. And that's the thing like that, that's, to me, that's why I'm not at all surprised.I'm like, well, yeah, they, this explains it. You know, [00:29:00] they're all just dying. They're, they're old and they're offline and they're dying. Well, but here's the thing. I've met tons ofMalcolm Collins: Catholics. So they're also dying. And that is, yeah, that is the reason have institutional power. That's,Simone Collins: but that's why I have hope for Catholics is, is they are getting organized in their communities and if anything, they're literallyMalcolm Collins: not bro.They're literally not. They have like some communities that seem to work, but I think they need something from up top going down. I think they need border. So you don't think that over timeSimone Collins: as these groups are the only ones that are left, they will influence policy at the Vatican level? You don't think so?Malcolm Collins: Like already. I mean, I think the majority of Catholics, at least the ones that I found who take it seriously, are very unhappy with what's happening at the Vatican level. Like the, yeah,Simone Collins: yeah.Malcolm Collins: The idea that the Vatican is, the point is though that their opinion doesn't matter now becauseSimone Collins: they're too small and when they are bigger, they, their opinion will matter.Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. I, I said the majority of Catholics I know are actually involved with their religion are not so already. Okay. Interesting. Already the Vatican is not a democracy in the way, like America's [00:30:00] democracy, right? Like if the average Catholic is, is is like suppose like you had like super prenatal Catholics having lots of kids growing and everything like that, the the entire.Career pipeline to getting in the chair that votes on the Pope is celibate. Mm. Like you are not near those people. Yeah.Simone Collins: That's not gonna help.Malcolm Collins: So, so you do have this and, and if you believe you have divine protection, you're not gonna take threats like this as seriously.Simone Collins: That's also fair.Malcolm Collins: So that does worry me.Yeah, I can see that that potentially not going on. What's even more sobering though,Simone Collins: if we wanna get to this though, is we're just looking at the P research data for the United States. A actually fairly passionate religious country. I think if we were to see EU data, we would, I. Oh, absolutely. It'd be so hot.Vomit with anxiety. Yeah. Japanese jata, south Korean data.Malcolm Collins: I've pointed out, like if you look at like ic, majority of countries in the eo like, like Italy, right? Where like the Vatican is, it's at 1.18 now. Fertility rate [00:31:00] they hundred Italians, there's only gonna be 20 great grandchildren. And there are, but this is a good thing because there are like small high fertility Catholic communities.I think that they might be able to stabilize and like replace a lot of the rest of the Catholic population pretty quickly. Hmm. The questions I have is just like, what's the deconversion rate in these communities? 'cause I don't feel like that's being taken seriously. Yeah. Like the communities exist, but like the Quiverfull movement also existed.Right. You know, and I know I'm saying all of this only because Catholics can actually do something. Like, Protestants can't really, likeSimone Collins: they lack the top down organization necessary.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they lack the top-down organization necessary to address this outside of the way that we're doing it. I mean, I think what we're doing is the best way to handle this as a Protestant.Yeah. Which is to create a living religion, which continues to update in the way that Protestants have updated in a long time. I mean, Protestants have undergone major re-understanding of their faith throughout American history. And us having that [00:32:00] was like the track series and stuff like that.Is not in any way discordant with American Protestant traditions. So I, I'd argue like we are fighting for the Protestant thing, is what we're doing with tracks is what we're doing with second Puritanism.Simone Collins: Yeah. Fair.Malcolm Collins: So, I mean, maybe somebody else can create some, some other form that's like persistent, but I, I, I think I'd, I'd like to see that.That'd be cool, right? Like, it, it could work, but you just don't see many of them. Like, like at at Natal Con, you don't see many Protestants.Simone Collins: I guess not. I mean, if you do, they're not the main speakers or influencers there. Yeah, which is interesting. Cool. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: But in terms of church attendance, I'll put a heat map on screen here.So like who is actually attending church? Yeah. In what regions are they?Simone Collins: Okay. LDS church is a must 'cause you have, you know, your callings, you have to, you've, you have a job. Like you can't Yeah. Not show up at church because you literally have to play piano or help man the kitty [00:33:00] pool or what, whatever their like daycare version thing is.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I'm trying to find out where, where the LDS was. I seem to remember for the LDDS, it was 11%, which is really high for weekly attendance.I went back to double check, so I'm gonna get some of these numbers wrong coming up. So just remember these are the right numbers.For Catholics, it was 1.9% of Catholics to attend mass weekly. For Protestants, it's 7% of Protestants to attend mass weekly. And for LDS it's 14.6%. Attend Mass weekly.Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. 11 percent's actually pretty low. LowMalcolm Collins: when you consider the way their face is structured. Yeah, yeah, lookSimone Collins: low when you consider what a proper practicing Mormon should be doing, and if you are a proper practicing Mormon, you have a calling at your local ward.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, likeSimone Collins: you, you have a job. You have to do something.Malcolm Collins: Well, there may be, there's just not that many proper practicing Mormons of the Mormons. That'sSimone Collins: crazy. Okay. That's actually, now I'm worried about the LDS church. This is not good. ThisMalcolm Collins: Protestants, it was like, I wanna say 5%. The remember was Catholic.It was only, two to 1% I [00:34:00] think. Whoa.For Catholics, it was 1.9% of Catholics to attend mass weekly. For Protestants, it's 7%To get into some more data here, only 19% of Americans self-identify as Catholic, down 24% in 2007. This is a 20% decrease by comparison. Protestants decreased by 21% while religious nuns. Increased by 81% and Muslims increased by an astounding 200%, although they still make up a small percentage of the overall population, only 1.2%.Even though the Pew Survey headline suggested a decline in Christianity in this country may have quote unquote leveled off, it's clear the overall direction is downward. This is a quote from a Christian magazine about it. .Malcolm Collins: If you look at the map, you can clearly see the Bible belt. Like the Bible belt is just like dark, dark, dark. You're looking at like 6.4% in those regions. If you go to like Massachusetts or Maine or something like that, you're looking at like under 1% in all of those regions.Wow. You go to Texas, you're looking at like 4.5%, [00:35:00] 4.8%, you know, around 5%. Same with Florida. Pennsylvania, you're looking fairly low. You're looking at around like it seems maybe like 2.3%. And, and, and what you might be surprised about is California, you're looking higher than that.California, you're looking in like the 4% range.Simone Collins: Is that from all the inland Christians?Malcolm Collins: Yeah. California has a big conservative population in it. Yeah. It's basicallySimone Collins: San Francisco and LAMalcolm Collins: is, and then a bunch of conservativeSimone Collins: progressives and then like the rest is, yeah,Malcolm Collins: it's funny. Nevada's also in that range, Washington's also in that range.Interesting. Oregon is actually pretty Blue Oregon is, is is in the like 5% church attendance range.Simone Collins: I guess these rural regions help to holdMalcolm Collins: them up. So like close to like, you know, New Mexico or Florida or something, or Virginia. Which I, I found pretty interesting. That is interesting. But you know, another thing you might be surprised about is how low church attendance to this in the Midwest, Montana, Wyoming, North [00:36:00] Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, all of them have around 2% church attendants.Simone Collins: Wow. Oh man. Okay. Yeah, no we are, it's over. We. Yeah, and this is just an, I think this is also a lot more evidence indicating that going back to the old boys, like we just have to get more traditional Catholic, traditional evangelic, whatever is clearly not working you. You can't just go back to that. People have clearly chosen to abandon it.It's not trying to make that work, I think is the wrong approach.Malcolm Collins: I agree. I agree a hundred percent.Simone Collins: But then you know what does work? Because I think it's also very difficult for people to do the othering, to do the weirdness if they don't feel like there's at least some safe tribe that's doing it with them.I think we're unusual and that we really don't care that we dress weird and have weird names and do weird holidays. I [00:37:00] think other people would be very uncomfortable if they did that in isolation. So how do you.Malcolm Collins: Well, and that's why's that why people are gonna go extinct?Simone Collins: Oh, so just the people who don't care what mainstream society thinks will survive.Malcolm Collins: Well, that's what I mean. If you look at our video on like, they're gonna replace you like the Japanese subculture and the, the tradies and the, you know, the, the, a lot of these are people who just do not care what mainstream society No, no. ButSimone Collins: the tradies and the. The Japanese soft Yankees, they do live in tight-knit communities.They do live close together. No, theyMalcolm Collins: have communities that they choose, but it's not like everyone in their community lives the way they do. They, they, they choose these groups. It's like a subculture, right? You know? They're like goths or something within the United States.Simone Collins: Yeah, but I think that they're more representative of what I would expect from future high fertility cultures and that they do geographically concentrate and live next to each other and feel solidarity in their weirdness together.I.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Also, you'll note here if you're, if you're looking at the, the regular church attendants, the greater Appalachian region [00:38:00] is like also really darker than the other regions around it. Hmm. Which is interesting. But yeah, as, as, as I you know, one thing I didn't get a chance to point outta that video that these, that these Yankees, that these whatever guys.That dress like, you know, greasers and stuff like that in Japan are, are staying high fertility. This means that we're in the timeline where space dandy or red line happens. There's been a number of, of, of far future like space animes where one of the characters is a Japanese Yankee.And I can totally see that likeSimone Collins: yeah, they called it without realizing what they were calling.Right. Which is interesting. Yeah. They're just like, no, this, this subculture is visually interesting. Little did they know that it was a future friendly subculture as everyone else chose to die out? Well,Malcolm Collins: I unlikable, you know, I, I think one of the thing is is, is J Japanese person could be like, well, does Japanese culture really survive?If it's the Japanese Yankees, I mean, you don't walk around in like samurai armor or whatever, right? Like, you don't walk around dress like somebody from the ma maing whatever period. Like ma you, period. Yeah, yeah. Like. You, you, you change a lot as, as things go on, and you might be undergoing one of these changes [00:39:00] right now where when our descendant think of Japanese people, they're thinking of somebody who looks like whatever, like the Yankees and, and Gaza or what, what are those girls called?Who dressed Goldman? Ros become. Yeah. And if you're thinking about Americans, you're thinking about like, what, what, you know, the, the Hill people became the country music culture. And, and the Mormons. I, I think that they're gonna write the ship on them because Utah and Idaho are just so high fertility right now.And that's where the, the Mormons are based.Simone Collins: I'm thrilled. They not highMalcolm Collins: fertility, high high church attendance. They're, they're Boston in Lake.Simone Collins: So then, you know, space Mormons too. They called it. Yeah. Starship Troopers. The, the few that will remain, by the way, she's referring toMalcolm Collins: the scene that they started the war, they Mormon separatists you know, were not listening to, to the sky Marshal and settled a, a remote outpost called Brigham Young.I love you death, Simone. Have a spectacular day.Simone Collins: And may we never lose religion. [00:40:00] Yes. Space Mormons.Is this daddy's phone? Yes. So be very careful with it on tv. What you doing? Um.No, look. Careful, careful, careful, careful.Uh oh. She's gonna clobber you guys. This is a public episode. 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