The podcast dives into the mental health crisis affecting progressive women, revealing strikingly lower life satisfaction compared to their conservative peers. It explores how urban monocultures and harmful online communities exacerbate loneliness and mental health issues. The discussion highlights shifting identities among youth influenced by political ideology and social media. Additionally, it critiques traditional mental health practices and examines the potential of AI therapy, all while addressing the societal impacts of these trends.

The conversation kicks off with Spoon delving into the relevance of democracy today and exploring alternative governance systems. The duo discusses the allure of rebellion in politics and contrasts left and right ideologies, examining church-state dynamics and cultural influences. They critique the shortcomings of democratic ideals and the moral integrity of politicians. Humorous takes on topics like Daylight Savings Time and the complexities of sexuality add depth to the dialogue, culminating in an engaging exploration of modern governance and generational views on monarchy.

Dive into the intriguing dynamics of political empathy, exploring how conservatives often show more understanding towards liberals than the other way around. The discussion reveals surprising insights from research on ideological perceptions and the complexities in grasping opposing viewpoints. Delve into the gaming community's political biases and the polarization that affects friendships. Plus, discover how political identity shapes mental health experiences. With a blend of humor and personal stories, they tackle serious issues while keeping the conversation light-hearted.

Dive into the fascinating world of pessimism and nihilism as the hosts explore Emil Cioran's philosophies. Discover how these mindsets can serve as psychological shields while contrasting them with optimism and personal responsibility. The conversation addresses the nuances of relationships and the effects of negative attitudes, urging a shift toward positivity for mental well-being. Reflect on the subjective nature of pain and the importance of enthusiasm in overcoming life's hurdles, all while challenging the traditional views of desire and meaning.

Discover the surprisingly modern origins of Wicca and Druidism, revealing key figures like Gerald Gardner who crafted these practices in the 20th century. Unravel how folklore, personal beliefs, and societal influences shaped contemporary interpretations. Challenge common myths about these mystical traditions and dig into the fascinating blend of ancient beliefs with modern spiritual movements. Dive into a humorous look at cultural stereotypes and the quirks of pop paganism, exploring how these 'placebo religions' captivate today.

In this engaging episode, the hosts sit down with Mike Solana, founder and editor-in-chief of Pirate Wires, to dissect the contemporary political scene. They explore Solana's role in shaping the tech-right political movement and the significant changes since the recent election cycles. The discussion spans from the transformation in Silicon Valley's political affiliations to the rise and strategy of Donald Trump's second term. Solana shares insights into the surprising status gain of Trump supporters in tech and the implications of such a shift. The conversation also delves into broader societal changes, including the shifting values in America, the decline of mainstream media, and the increasing significance of niche communities in a post-job economy. The episode is a fascinating look at the undercurrents shaping today's political and social landscape. Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. We're excited to have with us today. Mike Solana, the founder and editing something chief of Pirate Wires. 1,Simone Collins: 2, 3. Hello everyone. We're so excited to be day today. Oh my gosh.Okay. Yeah. Sorry. You went,Malcolm Collins: this is why we go with mine. Okay. Anyway. For people who don't know who Mike Salona is he doesn't just have a podcast. It's very popular. But in a publication, that's incredible. Yes. You also sort of put together heretic on, right?Mike Solana: It was my idea.Yeah. Founded it, created it. It's out of done out of out of Founders Fund, but yeah, it's mine. All mine.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So you've been a central figure in the coalition or sort of the consolidation of this sort of new right or tech right political movement that right now is sort of blowing through the country within the White House and a lot of what we're seeing.And I wanted to talk with you as somebody who [00:01:00] is. Totally integrated in like what's going on sort of the venture capital Silicon Valley tech worker scene the vibe shift that you have seen post election cycle there What's changing about how people are relating to things as well as the role that you played in this?Consolidation to to write some history here as the country changes and also to discuss the political realignment. We're seeing in the United StatesMike Solana: Well, I think first of all my own in my own personal life. I kind of i'm like very cagey about labels I Have tried to just be honest about what I'm seeing.And so people tend to put me in a box based on that. Maybe I belong in the box. I don't know, but I can talk about what I've seen. And in terms of what's different right now, I think the best thing to contrast is not what's happening today versus what was happening like four years ago with Biden, but just to, to just, we have this great example of Trump's.[00:02:00]Presidency and his inauguration and you can just compare the first one to the second one. He's had two first terms in a sense Really like he hasn't had a first in a second term. These are two totally separate I said not too long ago. It sort of feels like He played the video game and and, and lost.And he just started the exact same game over from the very beginning. Now knowing where all of the bosses are, right? It's not like he's gotten to the second chapter. He's just still in that first chapter, but he's doing it all over again. So we've never seen that. None of us have seen that in any of our lives.So it's, it's like a very kind of new thing. And within tech, you can compare that first one to the second one. And it's obviously night and day. I mean, the first one was there was one person in tech who was open about his support of. Donald Trump. It was Peter Thiel, and he was completely alienated right out of town for it and has since been sort of forgotten to a, to a large extent because there were much louder people who came to Trump's defense and support this second [00:03:00] time around who've, I think, occupied a lot of the, Discourse surrounding that in tech.And I don't want to like, obviously I feel some kind of way about that. Having been on the front lines of it, obviously not like Peter, but I mean, I work for Peter, I've known Peter forever. So I have a feelings about the way he was treated. But the difference is just obviously today, Trump supporters.Have status in Silicon Valley. And in fact, being a right wing person almost grants a certain amount of status, I would say at the higher levels. So I think it's really unclear what's happening among the rank and file. We haven't seen another round of fundraising data. The last time that we looked tech was still overwhelmingly voting.funding Democrats, venture capital will so overwhelmingly funding Democrats, but all the people openly talking about it are, it's just like overwhelmingly Trumpian. And then everybody else is, I think either conflicted because the Biden term was so [00:04:00] disastrous or quiet. And I suspense it. I suspect it was conflicted rather than quiet.I think people actually just didn't know how they felt.Malcolm Collins: So I want to pull apart the two things you said here to focus on each individually, because I think they're really, really interesting. The first thing that you noted, I think is so true. It's like that game the movie with I want to say the Scientologist guy where every time he dies, he plays the same day tomorrow.What was it, Colleen?Mike Solana: Edge of Tomorrow.Malcolm Collins: Edge of Tomorrow. Yes. Trump's edge of tomorrow ing it right now, but the thing that's weird about this and the part of this I want to focus on is why is the left doing everything exactly the same? Like why are they being so predictable? Why is it the exact same play through?Mike Solana: I think that they. I have no idea what they are right now. They're, they've lost so many things and it's not just an election, right? They've lost the culture. They've lost the youth. They have lost their sense of political identity [00:05:00] because Trump is not a regular Republican. Trump, they tried really, really, really hard to make the kind of like, Oh, he's a rich guy who wants to just help rich people, things stick.But even if you could, maybe that is secretly true. His policies are populist policies. They are economically populist policies. There's a reason that Tucker Carlson was aligned with him and is talking about things like banning self driving cars to protect the jobs of drivers. That's like a Democrat idea.And so I don't think it's like, if you've taken away the economic populism or at least provided a competitive economic populist. Platform you, what are you left with to differentiate yourself and what they were left with in the last election and even now today is like, maybe we should trans the children, maybe that's okay.Right. And that's, I don't think they even believe that they're just, that's something they were just forced to say by the party elites to sort of be in the party, but that's all they have now. It's like those really deranged far left social issues because also the right over the last 20 years has moderated a [00:06:00] lot on social stuff.I think there's, yeah. A lot of transformation happening on the right on the social stuff and conflict on the right now, but that's that's like coming That's not currently where we are like the terrain right now is the major the dominant figure in right wing politics Republican politics, but I don't think it's really that is Donald Trump and he is an economic populist who does not give a s**t about gay people marrying.He just does not care I also don't think the thing that's really hard to make stick is the abortion stuff because Yeah, he has been like, Oh, yeah, like, I'm, I'm against Roe v. Wade, but no one believes that that man hasn't paid for an abortion. Like he's not a Christian right kind of guy. And and he also is strongly said, you know, I'll knock out the any kind of federal ban for or whatnot.He's like states rights only. It's a bad case, but he just isn't that kind of. He's not that kind of right wing socially extremely far right wing kind of guy. It's just more complicated. So they don't know what to [00:07:00] be. And I thinkMalcolm Collins: there's, I've noticed two big differences in this particular playthrough.One sort of highlights the point that you're making here and Trump has even said this verbally. He's like, I'm pushing this issue because it's a nine 90 10 issue. This was specifically when he was talking about trans people in sports. And, and I think. The administration right now is looking to only battle 90 10 issues at the beginning because Democrats culturally have a compulsion to double down on whatever he is opposing.Mike Solana: So, well, because it's also always worked. They've always been able to just. Scream until they got what they wanted and they've, they've, the country has changed a lot because of it and the other overwhelming sort of like, let's say 80 20 issue at least that trump first one on and I think one on again is immigration.And they don't know what the f**k to do about that because they presided over an open border for four years and have people in their party who have now normalized that to the point that they can't go backwards. That's the thing about the [00:08:00] left, man, is like they can never go backwards, that they can never pivot.They can never change their mind. Trump doesn't care about changing his mind. And he's also not a Republican. He doesn't care about Republican baggage. He's just this guy who's doing what he thinks is the right thing to do. And so it comes off like common senseMalcolm Collins: rather than ideology. Well, so the second thing that he's doing differently this time, and I want to hear your thoughts on this, because this is like a huge difference.It's like when you're choosing to run for president and you're like picking a character, like your character is your VP, in many ways, in terms of like how you're colored, and the VP he picked sort of demonstrated a completely different alignment. I mean, Mike Pence versus J. D. Vance. Yeah. It was really like the.GOP Inc versus the new right or the tech right?Mike Solana: Well, I wouldn't even say it's the tech. I think, I mean, the tech right thing is something that's put on. That's like a Steve, Steve Bannon likes to, I think there's a, there's a tension between Steve Bannon and the tech right with JD Vance I think it's complicated because he's come out like in favor of Lena Khan and people like this who [00:09:00] want to regulate the hell out of the industry.But I agree you're right that the difference between VP pick is really important and the first one is I need it was Trump like I want approval from. The elite, and I don't know why he wanted that, but you could tell that he really did. And so he picked an establishment guy and he wanted establishment approval in the press.This new term is like JD Vance is an anti establishment guy and he blew up the press. He blew up the press room. He's now got like Mike Cernovich in there asking questions alongside the New York Times. It's like he, he, Trump knows that he will never have establishment approval. And so that actually was a huge mistake on the side.of the establishment. They should have brought him in instead of trying to ice him out because now he doesn't have anything to gain from working with them. He has a lot to gain from destroying them and that's what he set out to do. He'sMalcolm Collins: completely surrounded now and it's this weird phenomenon with people who hated him in the first election cycle.I mean, JD Vance, Elon, RFK, you know, it seems like his entire administration is just former adamant opponents. [00:10:00]Mike Solana: I don't know that. J. D. Vance was ever an adamant. I think it's like he has some comments that he's made and whatever, but he wasn't like, IMalcolm Collins: thought he led like the never Trump movement practically.Yeah, because he wrote hillbilly elegy and then he did this like apology tour for everyone who voted for Trump.Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx): Just for clarification here so I don't look uninformed, here are some quotes from J. D. Vance about Trump in his early days. He called Trump America's Hitler. He called him an idiot. He called him reprehensible. He called him cultural heroin. He called him unfit for office.Mike Solana: Okay, so I don't know anything about that. I know that he, the hillbilly, I know that he's defended trump supporters and things like this. I don't know if how committed he was to like the sort of never trump or cause in the beginning.It's definitely true that the others were against it. But even Ilan, I feel It's like, you have to think back to that period of time. And I give people all sorts of grace because at that period of time we were living in like a one party state, which became very apparent the moment that Trump [00:11:00] entered office and the whole entire deep state apparatus rose up to prevent him from doing anything and then tried to put him in jail for the following four years.And I think that was really the radicalizing moment for most reasonable people. It was like, you maybe didn't support him in 2016. You maybe didn't vote for him in 2020, but what happened after 2020. Was really scary. That was like the coordinated tech thing to the platform him. Then the government went after him, started putting his allies in prison, tried to put him in prison.I think that he would be certainly in prison at this point or on the path to it if he didn't win. And that's really scary. And so it's like everything the left is saying about him. I have not seen that from him, but I have seen it from them. And the sort of jig is up in that respect. Like you can't really hide the fact that you tried to put the front runner presidential candidate in jail, like in the middle of an election.Malcolm Collins: So you're going to hypothesize where the left goes in response to this?Mike Solana: Well, I think they have two choices. I think the first choice, no one wants to hear this, but I think that Gavin Newsom. Starting his new podcast is [00:12:00] really interesting. Mm. He is a total sociopathic political creature. He's like a classically presenting sociopathic politician in the late 20th century modelMalcolm Collins: of this.Yeah. Yes.Mike Solana: He's like a Bill Clinton kind of person.Malcolm Collins: Exactly. What's coming to my head as Bill or, or Hillary Clinton. Well, he feels, he's more like Bill. HeSimone Collins: feels more like a mayor out of Gotham City.Speaker 2: I'm just a poor schmoe, got lucky. I wish I could Hand out world peace and unconditional loveSpeaker 6: intimidate me. Bully me if it makes you feel big. I mean, it's not like you can just kill me.Speaker 4: Actually, it's a lot like that.Simone Collins: Like to me, he's more of a comic and I grew up in San Francisco. Like I, or well, right next to it. I grew up like sort of around, yeah.Just steeped in his, his lore. It just feels comic book ish.Mike Solana: Yeah, I think though that he's really smart and really underestimated. And the fact that he's now speaking to like Steve Bannon on the second issue of his episode of his podcast is really fascinating to [00:13:00] me because what I saw while I was watching the clips of that was he had clearly never, ever in his life.Had strong pushback on any of his ideas, even on the issue of was the election stolen? That's not something that he's whether, regardless of what you think about that question, that's not a question that, that, that he has, that Newsome has ever had to answer before. He's never had to beat back against the argument that it was stolen.And so to have them there. Laughing it off and pivoting in a smart way. He's also learning the fact that he's even talking to Steve. Ben is means that he's learning from the culture. He's his son is obviously red pilled and he's like, Holy s**t. Why is the youth Republican all of a sudden? And so he's trying to talk to these people.He's going to learn or whatever. He'll still be a sociopath. He'll probably be a centrist and he'll have some better signaling or. What I think is much scarier and maybe more likely is the like Hassan pikers of the world, the pro like the Luigi Mangione left the populist, radical, yay murder left the pro [00:14:00] Hamas left like, and I think the Hamas thing is less important as As the reaction to Luigi Mangione has really frightened me because it's so earnest and so deep and it also crosses into the world of Trump supporters.Anytime a left wing policy, you start seeing Trump supporters talk about it is like, Oh, that's real policy. That's like a Bernie Sanders, Trump overlap kind of thing. And I think that rather than put up that little, I forget his name. He's the ex Parkland kid who became a leftist activist and had the pillow company briefly.And now he's like a DNC chairperson.Simone Collins: Yes, we know of him, we don't know his name.Mike Solana: So that little dweeb rather than him, if they put Hasan Piker up there, who has a lot of energy, is good looking, is very, I wouldn't say he's masculine, but he peacocks masculinity, and he has a lot of young male supporters, and he's a total monster, like an actual earnest, like, guy who would have put all of us in, had all of us killed in a communist revolution, like they might win.So those are the two paths. I think the energy is actually on some [00:15:00] form of the populist left side and we'll see what happens.Malcolm Collins: That's really interesting. Okay, so I'm just sort of thinking through this in my head. If they go the Hamas Piker path, I actually think that that would lose their support from the mainstream institutions.In the same way, like when Trump ran the first time and the Republicans had to sort of like re coordinate Because, you know, he's, he's, he's supported like the kill. He said babies are legitimate military targets.Mike Solana: Sure. But what have, what is the left not normalized? Give me like a crazy left wing policy that they have not normalized.I mean, open borders now is a normal policy. The transing of youth women. Let's say biological women competing against biological men in youth sports. Like these are all things that 10 years ago we would have been like, Oh, that's crazy. Free speech is no longer it's like we must do government censorship, right?Like that's a mainstream Democrat position. I do not trust that there's anything that they won't actually normalize. And so I think that might be right.Malcolm Collins: That is really [00:16:00] scary. A world where that becomes normal.Simone Collins: I feel like your average American though, if you get out of especially coastal cities is not cool with that stuff.And I think that whether or not we see a radical left versus a reasonable and corrected, like market corrected left depends on trust and institutions. I think that the reason why Luigi Mangione is seen as a saint. Is because there is this fundamental sentiment that there is no law, there is no order, there is no justice.If you are not wealthy, if someone steals from you, if someone attacks you, if crimes are committed against you, well, sorry, nothing's going to be done. And I think if the Trump administration manages to restore some sense of faith in institutions, like, oh, now we actually First, prosecute people for breaking the law.That would be kind of huge. So it, it, I'm really watching closely to see what happensMike Solana: with the fact [00:17:00] that he's doing the things that he said on like immigration, for example, huge,huge.And he really didn't in the first term. And then the second term, it seems like it's all he cares about. And. Well, he cares about, he's doing a lot actually, but this is something that he promised that he seems to be taking seriously, even deporting Mahmood.What's his face? The Columbia guy. Yeah. Yeah.Simone Collins: Who? He's married and has done nothing but organized protests that are anti USA. Right.Mike Solana: He's been here for four years. He's only participated in anti American protesting. It's like he's being deported and that's a difficult move for Trump for a variety of reasons.Because I think there's actually. Once someone gets a green card due process enters this, it's, it should be harder to kick them out rather than if they were just here on a visa, it seems like he's just doing it. You know, the optics there are not great for him and he doesn't give a s**t. He's like, this is the kind of stuff that I talked about.If you hate the country, you're. going back to where you came from. If you don't belong here, you're going back to where you came from. And and these are things that, [00:18:00] you know, people have a harder time talking about online, including friends of mine who are on like the more centrist people, more thoughtful libertarian type people.But when you just talk to anybody who's regular, they're like, Oh yeah, why would we want that person here? Obviously, back to Syria or wherever the f**k he came from, it sounds like he likes it better. Why would we don't want him? Why do we want him?Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it seems like active enemy propaganda, like in our school system.Simone Collins: Yeah, I think actually just maybe today you tweet something like your, your, your minimum requirement for citizenship. Should be that you want to be an American. You like it. There's something along those lines. You should loveMike Solana: us and want to be us. Like you should want to become what you see here. It should not be like, Oh, that would be a great country.If only I could change it and make it like a little more Islamic. No, we're not doing that. That's not what we're doing here. Yeah,So would you like to see Sharia law in Canada replace Canadian law? At some point, it will. You know, Because we are, we have families, we are making babies, you're not your [00:19:00] population is going down the slum, right?. One day we can have a Muslim majority nation here in Canada.Right In your face!Malcolm Collins: all of these people who point out that you have these big protests going on in California where people are protesting being sent back to Mexico with Mexican flags. It's like, what, why, why are you madder thanMike Solana: you're with like, I feel that way about Israel and Palestine too.It's like my problem with it. Is I don't want to see either of your flags in my streets like I, it's an American flag or no flag is kind of how I feel about it. I just don't care about either one of these flags. You're perfectly nice people. I'm sure. Definitely what happened on October 7th was disgusting.Like definitely it happens a lot. Terrorism is bad. All true. I don't want your like multi thousand year old blood feud Being litigated in the streets of New York city. It's like, I just don't want to see that. And this is the problem with immigration. And this is, I think the reaction of the average American who is like, why the f**k are we even [00:20:00] talking about this?This has nothing to do with us. I don't want to have to think about this. I don't care. And Trump is just. He has like an instinct for that and he just talks to the people who no one else talks to, which is most people, by the way, that's like,Simone Collins: yes, well, I mean, it's, it's not just him mentioning 90 10 issues.I'm hearing it more and more, even on issues when he doesn't plan to support them, like with daylight savings, when he was asked. Will you finally get rid of daylight savings? He said, well, this is more like a 50 50 issue. I'm not going to touch it no matter what I do. Someone's going to get mad. He really, it's so refreshing to hear a president look at what the majority of reasonable people want and try to get that because it seems like we haven't done that for a really long time.Mike Solana: It's not ideological at all.Simone Collins: Yeah.Mike Solana: That is the thing that people get so wrong about him is he's actually, I think the most. Pragmatic president. We've had, you see this on issues of things like trade where and also things like, I mean, any policy [00:21:00] position he has, it's never, it's never about what should the world look like?It's always about like, well, what is the landscape and how do I get the best deal possible based on what? People all seem to want, he's all about making deals with people. He loves striking deals between people who don't want the same things. He loves brokering those kinds of deals. And that's just unlike we've never seen anything like that for better or worse.It's just a new thing. And I find the honesty of that refreshing.Malcolm Collins: I want to transition from this into the second part of the very first thing you said, which I thought was just really interesting is the conversations that are happening on the ground, the nature of them is really changing. And you mentioned it a little bit here in terms of like what people are saying.I know from my experience, I got this email chain from Stanford MBA. And, and it was from my class and it was all of them were like panicking, like panicking, panicking. I was like. The one person who would start just went on it and started magging and I probably really burned my chance of ever getting a job through that [00:22:00] network.Just by being like, Hey, if you ever want to talk to somebody with the opposite perspective,Mike Solana: They don't newsflash or narrator narrator's voice. They did not,Malcolm Collins: But the, the The at the same time, you know, we have people on our show all the time who have nothing to do with politics, like I'll invite somebody on because he runs like a statistics channel on fertility rates in like Eastern Europe or something or a religious thinker and like before the recordings turn on, it's always like, oh my God, like, I'm so glad, like, I wish I could move to America or I'm so jealous for what you guys are getting to go through right now.We're like,Mike Solana: yeah,Malcolm Collins: a lot in Europe. Is, is, how is this, is it like filtering down from the top within Silicon Valley, like in the intellectual class of Silicon Valley, because we're really connected to them, I'd call it like the EEO sphere, like the former effective altruist community, like the top intellectuals who we have connections with, they're like They're, they're, they're moving more centrist on this sort of stuff when previously they would have been hyper reactionary against it, but I [00:23:00] feel like the rank and file still think they're supposed to hate Trump.Yeah. Like that's sort of what I'm seeing.Mike Solana: That's the culture of there's this thing that is like. The aesthetic of thoughtfulness and they feel you have your centrist people, you're like Yimby type people, any kind of wonkish policy person, your former EA type people, your rationalists, they care more about projecting a sense of their own personal thoughtfulness than they do about securing.High level goals. I truly believe this for the country, like just positive, let's say growth borders, law and order, things like that. They don't care about that as much as, as how they come off to their friends and things like that, which is a weird thing to say, because they're rationalists and they're not supposed to care about that.But that is truly my read of most of them, even the ones that I like and friendly or whatever. I think that that's what's happening. And there's nothing about Trump. The aesthetics of Trump, there's nothing reasonable about them. He comes off [00:24:00] way crazier than he actually is. So the way that he just like, even on tariffs or something where it's an issue that you could actually get behind the idea of reciprocity and trade, he just every day is announcing something new.And so if you're like, your aesthetic is thoughtfulness. That, well, that's not thoughtful. He didn't think it through. He's changing his mind. He changed his mind five times. What does he really believe? And I look at that and I have to do the math and I've now known him for, not personally, but I've watched him for however many, 10 years almost.And it's like, Oh he's creating leverage out of nothing in advance of some kind of trade negotiation or deal negotiation that I don't even. Know anything about right now. The other day I saw him throw Google under the bus for something. And I was just talking to myself like, I mean, I wonder what he wants from them.Like maybe that's what's happening. Right? Like, like, I don't know what's going on over there, but probably something is going on there. And so that's how I approach Trump is just the principle of charity. I. I just assume that he's not deciding, Oh, I would really like to tank the economy today by doing something [00:25:00] crazy.I would like to just tank the stock market or whatever. My assumption is there's a plan and I just don't know what it is and we can judge him for it in, you know, six months or whatever. And it's like we can change the whoever's in charge now anyway. I wasMalcolm Collins: talking to New York times reporter today.And she was like, well, what do you think of like what he's done to the economy? And I'm like, he didn't like. Plan to take the economy if he even if he did he meant for it to be short term Like his goal is to make the american worker feel more secure likeMike Solana: well ain't also just to shore up Manufacturing security and that is a goal.It's like we just F*****g forgot that that's an important goal. COVID happened and proved that that's an important goal. It proved that it's not just a thing that you should care about. If you are this plebe who is saying, Oh, I wish that I could afford a home. And you're this, a rich person is like you idiot.That'll never happen again. That's not what we do here anymore. We don't give you like great middle class jobs. It's no longer just an issue for those people. It's an issue for all of us when you have a country like [00:26:00] China controlling so much of the manufacturing, and then they're also manufacturing viruses that they're then releasing, and then they're hoarding things like PPE, and that is something that was not nearly as bad as it could have been, but I think that the takeaway from that has to be.Oh, wow. That could have been easily so much worse. It could have been a little more lethal and that would have been way more devastating. And we were way not prepared for it. And so I think about it in those terms that completely 20, how could 2020 not have changed your mind completely about things like domestic manufacturing and Trump really cares about it.And we'll see what happens.Malcolm Collins: Interesting. So there was something you said there that aligns with one of our recent theories that I thought you might find interesting to pull on. So we were looking at why American conservatism like Americana conservatism is the only group really other than Jews who stay above repopulation rate fertility wise when they get wealthy.And what we pointed to was the truck nut fertility thesis, which is to say within Americana [00:27:00] culture, there is this idea that if some sort of culturally dominant force or respectable force wants to force something on you. Your reaction to that should be reflexively reactionary. Like put truck nooks on something because it's not respectable.Put the little naked girl on the thing, the Hooters chicks, you know, like, be. offensive in your existence. And that this was Trump authenticated him in a large part of America's mind rather than undermining his credibility. And there is, with these individuals who live their lives just to signal, I'm a good person an incapability of recognizing this.Mike Solana: I think that's true. I think that the way he talks, even just the cadence and the strangeness of his vernacular is all signaling a segment of the population that is considered [00:28:00] not elite to elitists. And when people like my parents heard it, all they really registered was like, Oh, this guy hates it.All the same people who I hate. I, they don't care that he was rich. They don't care about his dumb real estate deals in New York city, which by the way, like, does anybody think that there's no corruption in real estate in New York city? Like the only way to do real estate in New York city, like they don't give a s**t.They're just like, he's going to throw. a grenade at the machine, which I can't stand. And if he doesn't do that, we're going to have a problem. And then he didn't do it enough. And there was a problem in the election is my read of the 2020 election. It was like, he didn't do enough of the s**t that he was going to say, but I think, yeah, the way that he speaks the offensiveness, everyone thinks that's fun.The supporters think that's funny. And, and they register it as, oh, he cares just as little about, he has just as little respect. For this system of morality, the elitist morality as I do, you know, these people are people who [00:29:00] grew up saying before white privilege was a phrase. It was in the early nineties.You still had politically correct language. And there was this idea of like, why the average, like working middle class white person is like, what, what do black people What do I have that black people don't have like no one has ever given me anything? Why do I have to have this like reverence for this idea that the black person is persecuted or something in 1992?They don't believe they just never believed that because their lives weren't that good and they were really hard and the government wasn't giving them Anything and so to disrespect to show disrespect for that system that never in their minds gave them anything Is absolutely a part of his credibility.They're like, Oh, he gets it. That's a guy who doesn't, he hates the same stuff that I hate.Malcolm Collins: I think what's really fascinating is that it, I think that that also gave him credibility with like the tech bros, I guess I'd call them like the Silicon Valley VC crowd has always had an intentionally contrarian streak to it.But it's almost [00:30:00] like. Like for me, for example, I wasn't pro Trump his first election cycle. I, and, and I see it now as like maybe internal cowardice or something like that, but it took me a while to recognize the contrarianism in what he was doing and that that aligned with the value system that I was, you know, purported to have.Mike Solana: I don't agree. I think that it was more a matter of for the people who are maybe more famously pro Trump, like David Sachs and Mark Andreessen, that's probably true. But for the rank and file, like all of the, like the Mark Zuckerberg and the Google people calling up Trump and everybody was donating to his inauguration parties and stuff.That was much more about. Tech had tried for years to be a part of the elite and succeeded to a certain extent when he was censored while Trump was in office, they succeeded, like they, they, there was. It wasn't just remember the tech platforms or the speech platforms. It was like every tech company [00:31:00] cut Trump off and we're lockstep with the Democrat elites who were in power.It was a very scary moment in American history. I was like, Oh yeah, that was like straight up. Like we were teetering on the brink of real authoritarianism at that point. And and I would say that most tech people were. Aligned. And then what happened was four years in which it became absolutely certain that the Democrats were going to do everything in their power to dismantle that power.They were, they were, they were never going to be aligned with tech power. It didn't matter how much the tech elites peacocks the same values and pretended they cared about the same things like they were just not going to work because the https: otter. ai Do not want competition in power and tech was becoming too powerful.It was powerful enough, for example, to silence a president. The Democrats saw that and they were just as nervous as the Republicans. They were like, Oh my God, if you can silence the president, who is actually the powerful person here? It's not the democratic party, even all of a sudden. And so there was suddenly they were out of alignment and the backlash against the Democrats was, I think, totally expected just in terms of like.A read of [00:32:00] the, the, the power structure.Malcolm Collins: You think, you think the Democrats started, cause I, I personally didn't see any of the Democrats really targeting tech institutions leading up to the election. I, I remember them being really happy when they're banning stuff other than Elon.Mike Solana: This last, this, which election are we talking about?Malcolm Collins: This last like, like Zuckerberg that didn't really, you know, they were fine with him. They,Mike Solana: you have antitrust legislation targeting like every major tech company Valley. You have the global trade war targeting tech from Europe that our administration not only did nothing about, but abetted by. Sharing information with the Europeans.They talked about, they were constantly dragging tech people before Congress to yell at them and talk about whatever the issue was. They were talking about new taxation stuff. They were talking about, you had people like Elizabeth Warren, who talked about I don't want to get that wrong. So I don't want to say who it was, but there was an a conversation about going after unrealized gains.That is very popular on the list. Oh, yes. That would kill the entire concept of startups, how we know [00:33:00] about them, which is like raising equity to people who don't have money to pay the taxes on something like that. Yeah, because the, the, the gains have not been realized, which is like a basic economic concept, but they don't, the Democrats don't care because there is an, there is a huge part of that party.Many centrist Democrats would, of course. Would care. And in fact, there were many Democrats in Silicon Valley who absolutely cared and talked about it, but the Democrats have in their party, a group of people who do not believe in like industry as a concept, this is like, they're very socialist and it's not a small number of people.And so I think at that point, When they were in power and all of this happened. It was like, wow, if we want to keep on existing, we cannot work with these people here. Maybe they will, that party will crash and burn and the new version of the Democratic Party, we will be able to work with. And that's, I think what someone like Gavin Newsom is trying to demonstrate even in his rhetoric, he's trying to demonstrate that.But what we currently saw, the Biden thing, whatever, whatever was in charge while Biden was technically the president, that thing. [00:34:00] The tech industry just, it was straight up pragmatic. It was like, we will die if this is in charge. So,Malcolm Collins: so, no, I, I, I think you might be right about it. It's very different from my intuition of what was leading the tech community.Which was, if I look at like the words of the tech people, like Mark Zuckerberg, it was the. Government forcing him to censor stuff in weird ways. So I think the censorship, my read was censorship handling of COVID and the trans stuff is actually what turned the tech intellectuals away. But you see it as more just like pragmatic economic orientation.Mike Solana: Well, it depends on who you're talking. If you're talking about like, again, the Mark Andreessen's and the David Sachs's of the world, I think those are always thoughtful people who kind of disagreed with that stuff. And they, their opinions are not that different now than they were. I think a while ago if you're talking about corporate leadership, you know, the C suites of all these companies, I think it was just straight up economics and for Mark specifically, I think there was probably, there is something earnest to the evolution there for someone like Jack [00:35:00] Dorsey, who I've covered really closely, I absolutely believe there was an earnest intellectual philosophical development there.I think that he saw what happened during the Hunter stuff, not even from the administration, but from his own team, from himself, from what he Really antithetical to all of his like crypto libertarian values, which he has talked about forever. I think he was horrified by what he had become and I think he gave it, he worked to put Elon in power to end that whole entire machine.I love Jack. I defend him all the time and people always get mad at me. But I, I think that he is one of the most earnest, that's like the most, the most earnest evolution on the issue of the safety stuff. He would maybe even argue, he never. Evolved. I don't know, but he certainly, his company certainly had become something really terrifying on the censorship stuff.HeMalcolm Collins: ran blue sky for a bit too, right? Like he was on their board.Mike Solana: That came from Twitter. He was on the board. Blue sky was a protocol developed by Twitter. That's why they don't like own it now. It's, it's not a [00:36:00] part of the company. But then he was on the board and then he left because he was like, well, this just became the exact same thing that Twitter was.Malcolm Collins: What are your thoughts on, because we're talking about like how it almost became fascist of the US with the alignment of censorship and government, and yet I look at what's happening in Europe and the shutting down of election cycles, the extreme censorship. Do you just think Europe is cooked? Or like?Mike Solana: Yeah, I mean, this is a good example of, we were saying, oh, well, not everyone in the country, like most people in the country aren't going to stand for these crazy ideas. That can be true. As it is true in Europe that most people in Europe believe that you should want to become European, you should want to be if you're German coming to Germany, you should want to become German, you should want to learn German, you should want to integrate with the German population and ultimately be a part of the German nation,you canall believe that and still have people in charge of your country who are doing things in the opposite direction, because they've just They've really seized power and the democracy doesn't matter at [00:37:00] that point.So the only thing I think that is going to stop what's happening in Europe is some kind of, I mean, it would have to be a major change in the political structure, even cause they're like an endSimone Collins: to the EU.Mike Solana: I don't think that's enough. I think it's gotta be like on an individual level, like, cause you could, you'd have a change in a country like France, political change in a country like France, EU.I think the EU doesn't matter as much as France leaving the EU matters. But I think, right, I feel. Like it's over for you. I don't think that they have, I don't think they're going to do it. There's no mass deportation coming out of Europe. And just on the demographic, the demographic question alone there 20 years from now is going to be such a different world thatMalcolm Collins: you're absolutely right.I mean, one thing I point out is, is 25 percent was actually 24 percent of German's population is either immigrated or the descendants of immigrants after the 1950s. Well, that'sMike Solana: close to a third of Canada's population is from a different country. [00:38:00] Like, like immediately.Simone Collins: Wow.Mike Solana: Immediately. It is, it's like, it's 20 something percent.I'd have to Google it really quick. But, but it is, it's extremely high number. That's like a lot of people in your country who are not from your country. Yeah. And you may or may not want to be a part of your country.One day we can have a Muslim majority nation here in Canada.Right In your face!Malcolm Collins: Of Canada. There's been one like a gambit that I don't understand why Trump hasn't polled and it's like really surprising me actually.Why not just like go to Alberta, go to, there's one other conference. Province that would probably flip. And provinces can secede from Canada just by a popular vote. Why not just say, Hey, you want to join the U SMike Solana: I don't think they have those. Numbers yet. I think that's like the most likely province, but they're not quite there.And I go back and forth on whether or not Trump even actually wants Canada to become a state. I think he'd love it. It'd be fine. He'd be open to it. But I think the reason he's talking about Canadian statehood is just to demoralize Justin Trudeau. I think what he really wanted was to get rid of [00:39:00] Justin Trudeau.And that has, he succeeded. Justin's now out and he just resigned today. And I don't know. I don't know that he thought much more about it other than that other than like this really works for me rhetorically in terms of rhetoric and it really works against him. It makes him look like a total loser and he's just going to keep hammering it because it made Justin look, you know, impotent.Malcolm Collins: That makes sense. I would like to see a push on that. That'd be really cool. Simone, you've been quiet here for a CanadianMike Solana: statehood.Malcolm Collins: Well, no, to take the economically most productive regions of Canada just take their oil regions because they already don't want to be part of Canada. Canada established when the whole Quebec thing was going that you can just secede.And Canada has been using these regions resources to fund the rest of their stupidity.Mike Solana: I kind of think Canada is on a long term path to American integration. It's like the, the way is just in terms of. It's a slow [00:40:00] cultural economic, you know, integration until there's just we forget why we're not even the same country and then it just kind of happens.I don't think it will happen like this. But then also, I would say, like, if the demographics totally change in Canada becomes a very different place. I don't know what that looks like. And that could happen because this country is a country that seems to hate itself is a country that seems to not want to be Canada anymore.And that is what we're seeing in Europe too. And that is maybe the fundamental thing of our era that I don't understand that the weirdness of our era is like what seems to me to be a pervasive self hatred that in America, we have now room to not be that it used to, we had to be that culturally there is all we have now that everyone else does not have is we have permission.To love ourselves. And they don't have that in Europe. And in fact, when I was abroad just about a month ago, a few weeks ago for a conference I was in London and that is the thing that everybody kept saying was like, man, I wish that we had that over here. I wish that that we had people who loved it that much over here.It seems so fun and exciting to be over there right now. They didn't even care [00:41:00] about the policy. They only cared about it. Just like the permission to be excited about being alive and, and being your, your nationality. And yeah, they truly just do not have that there and we do, and that's precious right now.We'll pop it. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: It's funny that you mentioned that. Cause I was talking to some reporters about the prenatal conference and I was like at the last one. Really the most shocking thing about it is that everyone, it was the first time for a long time. I've been with a group of people where everyone was happy to be alive and excited about the future.Even though they think it's bleak and I think that the reason for this is just cultural evolution, which is the dominant culture in the world right now. It's the urban monoculture as we call it. And to convert somebody out of their birth culture, because the urban monoculture is a very low fertility cultural group, you need to disillusion them with the starting cultural tradition.If I want to convert somebody out of Americana culture, if I want to convert somebody out of German culture or British culture into the urban monoculture, I need to cut them off from their family, you know, convince [00:42:00] them their parents are horrible, and convince them that the culture itself is horrible, that that's how I deconvert them.And as such, I need to convince them that they are. Horrible. And a lot of cults do this, you know? And so I think it just sort of spiraled out of control. And then everyone was like, why do we, why do we all hate it? What, like what, why am I supposed to hate my ancestors and our tradition and our civilization?Mike Solana: Yeah. And then it turns out when you just refuse to do so and a bunch of other people say, yeah, I don't, I'm not doing that either. And you talk about it out loud. The hysterical screaming eventually dies down because it no longer works. It's like the behavior only persists for as long as they get a positive reaction from it and it just eventually it just dies down.I kind of think of 2020 as I thought of 2017, I thought was the peak and then 2020 happened and I thought, holy s**t, it's worse. Okay. There is, it keeps getting worse. But there's this idea in behaviorism called behavior extinction. [00:43:00] And the idea is that you know, people will act out to get a reaction.And then when you stop reacting. They don't stop reacting. They don't stop acting out. They actually act out much more at first. It's it's like they have to do much more to get the same reaction and then that works. And so they have to do much more. And the behavior extinction happens when as much as they ever acted out and then they don't get the reaction and then it dies.And the behavior being that, like The sort of woke behavior is broken and part of that sort of constellation of bad ideas was this expectation that you hate your culture in America. At least that no longer exists. That behavior has gone extinct and those people still maybe there are people out there that have those ideas, but I'm allowed to not and nobody can stop me and nobody even really cares, which is why I find so tedious.The people who are still doing anti woke. Content in 2025 as like their whole beat, which is like every day. It's woke whack a mole. It's like, look at this [00:44:00] blue haired idiot telling me that that white people are bad. It's like, no one cares anymore. I don't care. Like no one doesn't matter what that idiot says.They don't have power over me anymore.Simone Collins: That's actually one of the things I wanted to ask you about, which is a lot of energy and time went to that sort of the resistance. And now you have a whole bunch of people who don't really shouldn't be thinking about that aren't talking about that anymore. I'm really curious to see because you're so.A finger on the pulse of the cutting edge. Both societally and in the tech world in some spheres, what you're seeing is like new dialogues and new obsessions and new themes that are emerging that people are talking about and obsessing over and thinking about how to solve now that they're not trying to fight.Sort of progressive overreach.Mike Solana: I think that whenever Trump is in office, he casts this like crazy smoke screen. He just, I think he just, I'm trying to find the right metaphor for this. But he just makes it hard to think about anything else. And so I think a lot of people are distracted by him and I'm trying my best.To [00:45:00] sort of be like engaging with the culture, but to not be distracted by him from like, I'm, I'm sort of really refusing to be upset ever by anything that's going on. And whenever he says some crazy thing about tariffs, whatever, I'm just going to wait a few days and see what we learn. And people get mad at me for that, but that's just how I'm going to move on.But I think a lot of people are distracted by him.Ithink on the far right of politics, on the far left of politics, there's total. Collapse and confusion and not even far left. Let's say the center left. That's where it's collapsed. Confusion disillusionment, sadness. They don't know what to be. And they're just not being productive at all on the far left.There's excitement because the center left is dead. They have no competition and they're gaining followers. Then on the far right. Not even the far right, the whole spectrum of the right. There's a huge war for what it means to be right wing because Trump is bizarre and he's not the future of the party because no one is like him.He is. No one else is as pragmatic as him. Even the Trumpians like they're Trumpian. He's not Trumpian. He's just Trump. It's a very different thing. There's no philosophy there for him at all. So whoever comes next, that's the war and you see it. I think [00:46:00] the. On both the economic side, where there's a conflict between the Bannon types and the the sort of the tech writer, the Elon Musk types, and then you see it on the social side, where there's also a conflict between like Elon Musk and his.It means like Genghis Khan. It's like, how many kids is he going to have with random people? And the Christian right? The people who Pretend they're the Christian right, the trad right, which started as a meme and feels more real to me by the day. I think there's a lot of interesting, just no one knows what it's going to become.And there's like conflict there, and it, without a common enemy on the woke left, it's becoming much more vicious.So that is going to be distracting right wing people. And I think it's just going to be that what's happening is just going to be culturally quite chaotic because this is also happening at the same time that media fragmentation has happened.So not only are all, are all of these things, would it have been natural even with standard media that was closer to what we saw like eight years ago with a few big giant tech companies and then the mainstream media, it's way more fragmented now. So no matter what you believe, you can [00:47:00] hop into a place that confirms all of your biases, shares news with you.That is true. But super radicalizing about what you're about, what you believe. And so everyone is like very different and becoming more different. And yes, I think chaos for a while, unfortunately.Malcolm Collins: Okay. Here's a question that leads from that, that you might have an answer to. Cause I asked Simone about this.So Hassan Piker is most popular Twitch streamer. If you look at the most popular long form podcasts eight out of 10 of them are right wing, right, right wing. Why do you think the podcast scene has gone right or right wing people succeed in the podcast scene? And. On YouTube as well. And the, the left is becoming focused on things like Twitch and TikMike Solana: TOK.I have no idea. I don't know. I've even, I had this idea. Yeah, no, I don't know. I, I actually have no idea. I just know that it's true. And I don't know that I don't know Twitch. I'm not familiar enough with Twitch to know who the other popular people are. I know that a lot of what they do [00:48:00] is, I mean, they love to fight with each other.And get on into their shows and attack each other. That used to be popular on YouTube and it's not really as much anymore. And that was at a time when YouTube was more left wing. I don't know if there's something related to that, that it's all more He's just like a good WWE kind of star. I don't, I don't know.That's,Malcolm Collins: that's, that brings me to another point where you're like, you know, people used to fight when you had the lefties in control. It is something that you mentioned as part of the narrative, which is personally not something I'm seeing. And I've sort of taken it to be like a left wing gaslighting because, you know, they do a lot of this was media is that the right is now fighting each other.I just personally haven't seen that much of the right fighting each other.Mike Solana: I mean, you see it even with just like the Babylon B talking about anti semitism and getting attacked for it by there are all sorts of sort of. Is real skeptical where you really see it breaking down is on the question of Israel and Palestine, which is like a shadow war for all sorts.It's our proxy war for all sorts of ideas about [00:49:00] nationalism and the influence of Jewish people and things like that. And try my best to just stay out of that entire thing. Because I think it's one not what I focus on America only. And then to It just seems like there's no way to enter that world and not become like a way scarier person.I think that you just become the things that you fight and everybody there that's fighting that I see fighting. I don't want to be like so I've just tried my best to stay out of it. I worry that that fight that's budding up on the right is going to. Kind of overtake us all and we'll be dragged into it and have to pick sides or whatever.But for now, I don't think we have to, but I do see a lot of fighting on the right. I think it's on the question of Israel, Israel's influence. The influence you see, Bannon really trying to gin up fights between the, what he calls the MAGA right. And what he calls the tech, right. I, those are, I don't believe in that distinction.Maybe it will become a more serious distinction in the future, but he for sure feels. A conflict there. I just saw him on a Newsom podcast talking about the tech oligarchs and he hates the [00:50:00] influence of tech people on Donald Trump. I think this Elon thing really, really, really bothers him and he's going to stoke those flames and stoke those flames until he gets back into a position at the right hand, I think.But yeah, those, those fights, I see a lot. I think the left is correct about those, those who is maybe I actually haven't seen the left to talk about this as much.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it's interesting. My, my read of Steve Bannon, and I could be super wrong about this, is he's just like deep state slime and like everybody recognizes that now and he's mad because Elon is showing that he, he was the Elon of the first administration and he did effing nothing.Mike Solana: Right, exactly. He failed. He ended up in jail. That's, and that, by the way, That's what happens if you fail on this game, you go to prison, like you lose your life. That is what they proved. And that's why the stakes are so high, right? Like we, everyone knows going to prison. If he doesn't nail it, this does not succeed.We all are going to jail. Like that is what is going to happen. They say it, they actually just f*****g say it is like they lost the game fair and square. And their response to [00:51:00] that is. We should do communism. And and that's, that's like, that's the scary thing that's hanging over our balance. And that's why I worry about people like Hassan, because I think that he's the only one who's being really honest about, about.His intentions.Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and people find that honesty, very attractive, very appealing. I mean, for the same reason they love Trump,Mike Solana: which is a very difficult question. You'll have to answer eventually. If that conversation picks up is like, do you have to act like them or something? Because that, again, it's like, it's just, it's the only way to survive a fight like this, I think, is you become not even, I don't know if you can even resist it.If you're in a fight with someone, I think you just start to become them. That is what happened with everybody who fought. The woke people is like, you just fought fire with fire. You used to, you get obsessed with the culture wars you became. And I say this even a little bit like just self reflectively, like I became too much like them over the last few years.I don't regret it because I don't know that I could have been effective in that environment if I didn't,butit is a sad thing. I look back at [00:52:00] my work from. Six, seven years ago when I was first, like, why can't people just let me write about this f*****g Mars thing? Like I'm doing a podcast on Mars. Like leave me alone.It's not white supremacy. Shut up. Like, I look back at that guy and I'm like, man, I have, we like, I personally lost a lot by Fighting this thing. And I want to like get back to it, but it's hard. Like you just, you change in this kind of, in this kind of idea environment.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I can see that. One thing that I find really interesting that to expand it a bit from what's going on in the tech world.And I don't know how much insight you have into like a nerd culture stuff, which is another area that we do like a lot of stuff on, but the, how nerdy are we talking? Well, I, I was going to say Too muchSimone Collins: WarhammerMike Solana: lore? I played Magic the Gathering, and I had familiar with DungeonsMalcolm Collins: and Dragons. The, the breakdown of the video game, like the woke video game industry in the United States has been pretty catastrophic to the extent where you'll have like 400 million dollars, and this has [00:53:00] happened multiple times, it's about to happen again with Assassin's Creed Shadows, 400 million going to a project and like 500 people buy it or like 1000 people buy it.And it's, it's, it's destroying a giant industry. There was like the major media industry. And at the same time as I'm seeing this industry burning, I then see the, the news media, like the traditional MSNBC. It almost feels like a light switch flipped and everyone now is like, Oh yeah, they're not like meaningful sources of news anymore.Even the people who work at these companies,Mike Solana: well, even the left, they're like, Oh, they're too right wing or whatever. Like there's the trust in media is totally collapsed. But I think I was going to say, as you were talking about, I was going to connect it with media and I, I just see that as opportunity, especially as AI as our, as our AI tools advance and we are more able to create these things more easily ourselves.You're just going to see new gaming companies and new people, or gaming people, single individual creators of incredibly popular, beautiful games. You're already seeing that on the media side. And that's maybe the future of everything is people doing more with less and creating new [00:54:00] institutions, new balance of status and power and wealth and things like this.Malcolm Collins: It's funny that you mentioned that we're actually doing that. We're building a video game company right now with AI. Which I'm really excited for because the big like institutional players are so bad at using AI effectively.Mike Solana: Yeah, I mean, well, so new it's like, and no one has ever super incentivized as a giant to embrace the new thing for this.Like the, what is the famous innovators dilemma? You don't want to be creating the thing. That's going to put your, your bread and butter out of business. I guess they should be able to use new tools, but if they create tools that give way more autonomy to the user, just to get to a point where, You start to wonder what the point of this thing is, which is like, you know, that's what kind of is happening with the sub stack ecosystem and social media and stuff like this.It just got to a point where I remember the whole blue check conversation was so crazy. And when Twitter was still Twitter. And the first thing that Elon did was he was like, I'm taking rid of, you're no, no, you no longer get blue checks just because you're like this anointed, you know, priest, high priest of the establishment, you're going to [00:55:00] have to pay for a blue check.And anyone can have a blue check if you're a person and you give me money. And they were furious. The shift had already, like no one took that blue check seriously. It was just like, you don't deserve this because you have, you have 400 followers and you're crazy and you happen to work for like Vox.That's, I am more influential than you. And that's crazy. Like you don't, you're not more special. You don't deserve a new, a special suite of tools and access to the administration or the art, what I consider my administration, which is whoever runs Twitter. You're not, you're not better than me. And he just, Elon just made, he forced his company to confirm with the reality that already existed.And that's always a really interesting place to be when, when there is something that everybody already knows to be true, but you can't say it, or everybody's already doing something, but you can't, you can't talk about it or discuss it or plan for it. And then someone just. This is the real thing. This is what we're doing.This is reality. And people love that. It's [00:56:00] like, thank you for saying the truth. And also now the world is different overnight.Simone Collins: We're going to see a lot more of that in the coming years. What doMike Solana: you think the things are? Maybe that what is the one, what, maybe one thing that you think most people kind of think, but you can't saySimone Collins: about social media or the news.I think people realize that we live in a post job economy already. And that also money doesn't matter anymore. Those are my two big things.Malcolm Collins: It's in the process of not matter. And Elon has said this as well, like because of AI because of AISimone Collins: and also because of sort of debt cycles and inflation. And we're, we're headed towards a Jubilee.That's not going to play out like a Jubilee, like social security is going to fall apart. But then I think the government's just going to mint money to sort of cover it. I don't think social security is going to be privatized. And then, I mean, even if that doesn't happen, so even if our currency isn't massively devalued that way people are already behaving in a way especially younger generations and especially people who aren't wealthy and there there's a lot of them like, well, money just doesn't matter anymore.I'm going to be in debt forever. I'm [00:57:00] going to put it on a credit card. Cause I'm never going to pay it off. It doesn't matter what the interest is because it's never going to be paid off.Malcolm Collins: Weight of relating to money has inverted. So historically, the core store of value was anything that was fungible and had a set value like land or Bitcoin or house, you know, whatever.But gold but now because those things were great for storing value because the number of people who wanted them was growing exponentially. But when the population begins to stabilize and then begins to collapse. The core thing that we thought of as a store of value collapses, and you could say, well, you could put it all into the economy like the S and P or something like that.But all of the large companies are going to be the companies that are most at risk from the AI transition. So all of the places where you could store value are very unsafe.Simone Collins: Yeah. And I think a lot of people feel like they've been scammed so many times. Yeah. I mean, I can't buy a house. I can't, you know. I can't afford this.I'm in debt. Money doesn't matter anymore. Everything's going to be on credit. And eventually we're going to say, well, this happened in Japan a couple of times where they're just [00:58:00] kind of like, huh? Okay.Malcolm Collins: It is always a part of the beginning of demographic collapse.Simone Collins: Yeah. Let's what, what debt it's gone.So yeah, money's going to go crazy. And I think a lot of people are already the idea ofMike Solana: our national debt. Like, I don't know how you pay that back. So do you just have to say, I'm not paying that back? I think that that's actually how it ends. Yeah.Simone Collins: And our currency can be. Massively inflated until it doesn't really matter anymore.And, you know, the portion of our budget that it becomes is going to be so silly because we get to just inflate it to high heaven. So yeah, that's, it's something that we think about a lot because, you know, we, we keep, our kids are now becoming obsessed with money and asking us. You know, how, how will I, how will I buy things?And, and where do I get my job? And we're like, no, you won't get a job. That's never going to happen. And it's, it's, we're not trying to figure out what to tell them. To help meMike Solana: understand, what do you think is going to happen rather than having a job?Simone Collins: You're going to have to create a niche personality.That's that is capable of selling gatherings, events, access [00:59:00] or artisan goods of some sort. That people want that a niche of people wantsMike Solana: That's a fraction of the population. So what happens to what, I don't know what that world looks like.Malcolm Collins: There have been worlds in the past. And I think that people just fundamentally, like in our generation, art.Capable of accepting this. But if you go back to like the 1910s 1900s you know, you didn't have a welfare. You didn't have social security. You didn't have medicaid when people were poor. They just died. And we're going to go back and a lot of people are just gonna And the rest of us are going to be scraping by and there's going to be a few people with an astronomical level.There's goingSimone Collins: to be extended families sort of, I mean, we're going to, I think we're going to see a bit of a return to feudalism where you're going to see sort of these walled gardens where the top 001 percent is going to be. And then these ecosystems around it sort of in a, in a feudal format.I think that there could be a world in which there's basically UBI, but then you're going to see systems kind of like [01:00:00] in you can see in prisons where. Sure. Your food is covered, your housing is covered, but there are all these artificial economies where people are making food for each other, they're trading services, they're cutting each other's hair, they're threading, they're, they're doing all this.So there's going to be a lot of like human to human service exchanges. And that's, that's for the, everyone else who basically is just getting by sort of living in these. Localized and I'm not meaning even geographically, but often sometimes we call them like techno feudal where like you're sort of living based on your cultural subset, like, you know, the furries over here and like the, whatever.And they're all sort of exchanging services and you're probably a member of a bunch, like you're probably a member of your geographical one and then maybe one or two social set ones like the FLDS and you're this geographic area or like EDM enthusiasts of this weird subset. And. this local geographic area, and you're going to be exchanging goods and services based on that.And the ones who really thrive and manage to gain wealth, who are not part of the 0. 001 percent who just maintain all the wealth in the future, you have to have some kind of celebrity status where that 001 percent [01:01:00] comes to you for their artisan vegan leather bike shoes. Because you are the one, the master, the one whose, whose content they've watched, who, you know, they get obsessed with your artistry or the fact that you can weave.This rare silk fabric using the method used in the 1500s in, in some obscure region in China, that kind of thing. You gotta, you gotta sell to the autist and you gotta be an autist. I guess IMike Solana: just, things will change. That's such a radically different world. ThatSimone Collins: it's more like it's been for thousands of years.It's back. It's back to what things were. We're in the aberration. We're in the sci fi world.Mike Solana: What, what is the, what, it was like I guess the era of industrialization.Simone Collins: The era of industrialism and the era of, basically with the riseMalcolm Collins: of,Simone Collins: it began with the British Imperial Empire and it is ending with AGI.Mike Solana: What I'm hearing is colonialism was not that bad.Simone Collins: It was [01:02:00] a good run. It was interesting. It produced a lot of cool stuff. It's just also, it's like a wave crashing on itself. It will produce something new.Malcolm Collins: For us, this is existential. Because, you know, we want to have a lot of kids. We want to create a culture.We're building a religion. And so we've got to think about, you know, next hundred, next two hundred years. And I just think that things are going to be astronomically harder for the next generation. And they're going to have to, like you would need to in, in, in these earlier eras, figure out how to support yourself, but maybe without a community.Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, the future is here, just not evenly distributed. You can get got by probably telling a kid. Teaching them to get a job and do that and like do the traditional breadwinning stuff, but it's going to be shakier. It's going to, it's kind of like a game of musical chairs. There are not going to be that many chairs left.I think a lot of the people getting laid off from corporate tech jobs and from the government are just, they're just never going to get jobs again.Mike Solana: Yeah. Well, the good thing is we'll be able to see that happening soon and maybe we'll have more information. TheSimone Collins: numbers are so off, like the reporting's really [01:03:00] off.So I feel like we're flying blind a little bitMike Solana: in techSimone Collins: and in employment and do people have jobs anymore? I think that we are, we've gone off the rails.Mike Solana: Here's, I think one good indicator that they do have jobs is the protest sizes have completely plummeted since the BLM era. Everyone is out of work.That's really the true, that's the real story of the BLM protests and why they were so big is because no one had anything to do. And right now you're looking at protests at like Trump tower or whatnot. And even like they're, they're cleaning up BLM alley. And no one's even there protesting. There are reasonsSimone Collins: to lie flat.Malcolm Collins: I know. I think it's the Hikikomori causation that happened during COVID. I think COVID taught people, you can just stay in your house in bedrot. And a lot of people never came out again.Simone Collins: Yeah. Why protest? I mean, they know it doesn't do anything. LikeMalcolm Collins: it just, there's, I think it's not. We see in our fan base who reach out to us sometimes and stuff like this, just never interacted with another person, really.[01:04:00]Mike Solana: Yeah. I don't know why. It's super not rational, but I just feel like this is not, it's not that bad. I think even AI. You're soSimone Collins: wholesome. You're so like, you're so, your interpretations, though being heterodox and though being cutting edge, I don't know how you managed to do it. They come across as so kind, so charitable, so optimistic.And I love it. I love, I love your vision. I justMike Solana: think it's like, like even with AI. It's did you guys see this Sam Altman? He posted the AI telling a fiction story.Simone Collins: No,Mike Solana: it just wasn't. He's like, this is great. And all the people were like, this is there. It's fake. It can do fiction. And I just felt like, it could do a lot, but it couldn't do what he said it could do.And we're talking. I don't think so, actually, because what it's really good doing is predicting The words that are going to come next based on words that have already happened. AndSimone Collins: guess what? So are you. [01:05:00] So are you. We've done it. Do youMike Solana: believe, you believe that I am an LLM? This is, but we've always done this.Simone Collins: We think that there's. Abundant proof.Mike Solana: But this is what people have always done with technology. If you look back 150 years ago or whatever it was, people were like, what is the future going to be? And it's like a crank machine that gives you knowledge. It's like, how does the brain work? The brain, the way we describe it, we describe it in terms of the technology that we see.And so I don't think it's like this. LLM is what we are. I think that that is just how we're understanding ourselves because it's the most advanced thing that we have and we recognize that the brain is Actually still the most advanced Piece of technology that exists in the world by far. It's a very, very strange and I don't utilizeSimone Collins: his training data to come up with.I mean, like, come online, likeMike Solana: a car, like it's not the same. I think it's not the same. We can do things that it can't do. And have youSimone Collins: been in a car with a 16 year old who was just learning how [01:06:00] to drive?Mike Solana: Cause I've been the 16 year old who was just,I'd note here that this is a bit different from times in the past where we have, , said, Hey, humans work kind of like a machine. , it would be more akin to if we said, Hey, humans work kind of like a machine. And then we got the first fMRI images of a person's head and it was filled with gears. , that is basically what's happening as fMRIs.Studies on how humans process language get better with LLM related stuff. We have an episode on that right here if you're interested in this topic. But I didn't want to derail this particular conversation too muchMalcolm Collins: no, hold on, the smartest humans can do things that AI can't do.I don't know if like, there's a few things that AI is bad at because they appear to be using different systems in our brains like counting or something like that. But I don't know if like, when I look at the, the language processing of AI, that seems better [01:07:00] than 80 percent of humans. 70%? It's not about Sorry, I'mMike Solana: getting a phone call right now.Simone Collins: Oh, we've probably gone over time. Yeah, we'll leave you go. We kept you for way longer than we said we wereMike Solana: going to. This is another fascinating conversation. I wish we could have done more about it. But it's been great talking to you guys.Malcolm Collins: Thank you so much. Thank you for coming. Is there going to be another Hereticon?Mike Solana: I think there will be, yeah, I think it'll, I don't know if it's going to be the last one or not. Maybe these things will be good. It's a feel like a trilogy is important,Malcolm Collins: yeah, we love having you on. Go check him out. Oh yes. Very similar to this show, but much more mild. And if you hate our AI takes, which like a big part of our fanbase does, because we're very pro AI, like, this guy is like us, but with saner AI takes. More optimism. This is if you like us, but you don't like our pro Luigi Mangione stuff.It's like us, but not pro Luigi, you see, thanks guys. so much. Enjoy your weekend. Bye. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com

In this episode, we delve into the famous 'moral circle' chart from the study 'Ideological Differences in the Expanse of the Moral Circle.' We discuss common misinterpretations of the study, highlighting errors made by the researchers that led to widespread confusion. We explore how conservatives and progressives allocate their moral concern across different layers, from immediate family to the entire universe. We also examine neurological and psychological differences between these groups, touching on aspects such as threat sensitivity, cognitive processing, and brain structure. This comprehensive discussion aims to shed light on the fundamental ideological divide and how both sides perceive and value their moral priorities. [00:00:00]Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. It is wonderful to be chatting with you today. Today, we are going to go in to the famous circles or charts of interest. It comes from a study titled Ideological Differences in the Expanse of the Moral Circle. And so this is a moral circle chart that everybody loves to show. And I wanted to go into this in an episode because one, what the study actually says, Versus what people think it says is hugely misinterpreted, mostly because the people who wrote the study made a mistake in the way they described the procedure of the experiment, which led people to completely misunderstand what was being shown in the graph because the graph is intuitively not what you would expect it to be.So there is actually data that looks at what people think this is, which is on average what conservatives and progressives care about. But it's not the graph that you think you're looking at. Okay, so what a lot of people think that this graph shows that I have shown you is [00:01:00] sort of moral expanses of what people care about.Where do they put their intention with each layer of this circle, representing moving out from like yourself to your family. To out out out. So let's go over what the the various rings mean. The innermost layers include categories like immediate family, closest friends, et cetera.Simone Collins: Okay,Malcolm Collins: then you have the innermost layers, layers, sort of the middling layers, all people you've ever met, all people in your community, all people in your country which reflects sort of a broader sense of community.Then you have the outer layers. These encompass all humans, all mammals, all living things in the universe, including plants and trees. And then you have the very outermost layer, which is all things in existence, like rocks and everything like that, okay? And what a lot of people interpret this chart as meaning is the average of what conservatives and progressives care about.And in a way, it's telling, because not a lot of people pushed back against this interpretation. I. e., you see here, conservatives care about things like family. [00:02:00] their countrymen, whereas progressives in this interpretation cared the most about things like rocks and plants and stuff like that. And, well, I mean, people intuitively hear this and they're like, yeah, that sounds like the type of brain dead thing a progressive would care about.The problem is, is they did ask that question. Okay. It's just the data that they collected from asking that question was shown in a separate chart. Which I will show you in a second. And this chart shows data around the question of what is the furthest extent of the things you care about.Simone Collins: Which makesMalcolm Collins: progressives look a little less crazy.IE conservatives often do not really, it actually makes the conservatives look a little sociopathic with many conservatives not really caring much outside of their family, their friends, etc. And with, and I, and progressives being like [00:03:00] almost sort of sociopathic in the other extreme. I care about the universe and everything.I care about all things.Simone Collins: Yes.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so let's look at the real graph that that actually looked at the answers to this rating and you'll see why nobody shares it because it's done terribly and it's hard to interpret.Now,if you saw this graph, you'd think that the first graph was the, what do you care about most? Not the extent of your beliefs. And right. This graph was the extent of your beliefs question, but no, they did it oppositely because they were bad at their jobs. It was great for memes and they haven't really gone back and commented on it much because They're scientists and they don't like that it's become like a meme thing and they feel kind of bad about messing it up to begin with.It's sort of like my read of what's going on here. But what you can see from this chart is this took the thing that you care about most on average basically gave people a number of tokens. And you can slot them into different categories. You can put like all your tokens on family and only like one or two on country and stuff like that.Or you can distribute [00:04:00] your tokens more evenly. And so when you divided people into human versus non human categories, what you see here is that generally the more progressive somebody was, the less they cared about human things. More plants, animals, space, rocks. Or more,Simone Collins: I, I would argue the more equally you care about all things.Malcolm Collins: Well, including non human things. Yes, including non human things. This is assigning value to non human things, which I think is weird, but okay. And then I'll put another graph on screen here, which will give you a bit more, because it shows like the error bars on each of these. Or the, the margins so you can get an idea of how much they separate from each other.And what you'll notice here, is some interesting things. But in general, the broad trend is that, yes, liberals actually do care about non human things more. Now I want to, now suppose you're like, okay, but what if we did like a heat map of what people were caring about? [00:05:00] Graph what people are caring about.And then we're going to go into the neuroscience of this because the conservative and progressive brain are actually a little different.Simone Collins: Okay. Oh.Malcolm Collins: So here, here you can see like a depth map or heat map of where people were actually clicking and it does show that yes, the conservatives largely viewed their loyalty in tranches, i. e. a lot of them were really loyal to family, a lot of them were really loyal to country and then you have a smaller like out there group, whereas progressives are much more unified in their beliefs with sort of a out there, probably all plants and animals.Yeah, like it'sSimone Collins: very, it's much more outwardly focused with. Very little emphasis put on the nearest circle.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and I I'd say that I also understand this conservative idea of okay. I'm distributing tokens. What do I care about? It's gonna be Family a lot in country a lot. Yeah, or when I think of country, I've been like wider cultural System that I'm a part of right maybe not necessarily exactly like just a country for arbitrary like countryman's sake [00:06:00] Yeah, and I think that's the way a lot of people would interpret that and then the second graph here that I'm showing what you can see is Approximate distance from center aggressive versus conservative, and you can see that what you actually get is progressives actually care about almost everything more except for family, where the conservativesSimone Collins: beat you a little bit more.That makes so much sense that you always make the point that like the urban monoculture works like a cult by starting. with a separation between the person and their family and their support network. The therapist goes and finds about all the terrible things that supposedly were done by this person's parents in their childhood.And there's a lot of hatred for one's inherited group and their traditions because they're backwards. And Savage,Malcolm Collins: right? Yeah so, I think that, why is this a meme? Before we go into neuroscience and stuff like this. Why is this all out there? I think because it shows something that we all know to be intuitively true, which is that [00:07:00] progressives care about things outside of sort of their immediate circle.People will be like, well, why can't you care about everything? Why can't you just Like, I guess you can say that, but care units are attention units. You can say care units are units of like, what are you weighing? Right. And somebody who distributes too many care units outside of, because that's what I'm saying when I'm, when I'm distributing a care unit, I'm saying when I'm making moral decisions or equations, how much am I going to reference things outside of my immediate communitySimone Collins: and, or how much of your mental bandwidth goes.Yeah.Malcolm Collins: And this actually matters a lot if I'm thinking about the type of people I want in my community or I want to invest at invest in, in members of my community because these individuals, I can invest in them, but then they will make decisions or the community can invest in them. And they will make decisions that benefit things other than the community.It's [00:08:00] like. You know, you have the old grandma who you're giving money to, to try to help her and her cat and you learn that she's been giving it all away to Rwanda. And you're like, well, you know, yeah, I gave you this cat grandmother. You were supposed to be taking care of it. Like, what are you doing?Like, it's like, well, I gotta give it all to Rwanda. And it's like, well, I gave you the money. For you, like, do you not have any loyalty to that? And it's like, no, I don't because we're Wanda. And I think that this is, this is why it makes sense for conservative cultures, i. e. cultures that have survived a long time and are just like made up modern philosophical hokum to want to reject and eject individuals who over emphasize moral weight of things far out of the system.Simone Collins: Mm hmm. I mean, I would also argue just from a logical standpoint, I've I've definitely shifted from being very, very outward circle focused to very, very inward circle [00:09:00] focused because I'm aware of where I as an individual can make the most difference and you can make the very most difference at the local level.Not, you know, not very far away. And honestly, if you really care about Rwanda, the best way you could make a difference is probably by well one either like Donating as much of your income as you can to that and just focusing on it exclusively or honestly going out there and helping like getting on the ground and helping.Yeah. If you can't make a lot of money. And then, and then what? Then it becomes your local circle. So now you're, you've, you've shifted the circles and now you're, you're, you're, you're an inner circle person. It's almost like they, they, they want to make the outer circles their inner circles, but they don't.And so they're feckless. And that's, that's what bothers me.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It's almost like, But I think having kids really switches this up for people, because then you get invested in this sort of the intergenerational part of life, investing in the next generation, thinking about how you're going to set things up for your kids, for your country, for your cultural group.And you begin to realize. That a [00:10:00] lot of the signaling of things far outside your immediate cultural group is ultimately signaling to make yourself feel like a good person. I think I don't think that a lot of this is actually deeply caring about these things as you see with a lot of progressive causes, you know, they care.They say, Oh, I care about human suffering. And I'm like, well, yeah. Population collapse is going to lead to astronomical suffering when social security systems and welfare systems collapse. Don't you care about that? Or I care about the environment. Well, then shouldn't we be doing nuclear plants? Why are you shutting all the nuclear plants down in Germany, right?Like, that's people who say they care about the environment doing that. Like, that's nuts. But it's because they don't actually care. They care about looking like somebody who cares about the aesthetics of the environment or the aesthetics of family or, or, or human suffering. Whereas I think conservatives, when you are allocating your points pragmatically, like, where am I actually going to be able to make an impact in the world?I think that that's a big part of why conservatives [00:11:00] allocate their care in this way, because they know that that's where they can matter and where them, when you. Help communities that aren't your own overly you typically end up one causing communities that are less healthy and cause more suffering over the time to proliferate and end up making your own community suffer.So just on net, you cause more suffering in the world. When you look at our video on, on Nietzschean philosophy on this where we critique it, but we say, but you know, it's not wrong on everything. But let's go into the, the, the brain and psychology of all this. Psychologically, progressives tend to score higher on traits like openness to experience, a big five personality dimension tied to curiosity, imagination, and tolerance for ambiguity.They're often more comfortable with change and uncertainty, which aligns with their inclination towards social reform and making things up. Here it says innovation, but. I'm gonna say making things up. Conservatives on the other hand typically score higher on conscientiousness, particularly the sub trait of orderliness, and [00:12:00] they value stability, tradition, and structure.You see, Simone, you were always meant to be a conservative. Orderliness, conscientiousness.Simone Collins: Well, and why I was the black sheep of my family as I grew up in California.Malcolm Collins: Low anxiety, structure. Order this can make them more skeptical of rapid change and more focused on preserving established norms. And, and I think that this is not as much what we see from modern conservatism because we live in an odd time where the dominant culture is a progressive culture and to maintain tradition and what the conservatives largely make up today is people who are rebelling against a domineering and fascist like Social order attempting to force people to live and think what it believes if you look for example Let's say like the reason why the people who are labeled anti lgbtqia or whatever are anti it now very few are anti it because they're like This is what the bible says [00:13:00] if you look at the most prominent leaders of this space They're generally just anti trans And started as pro trans, but moved anti trans when engaging more with the science and with like J.K. Rowling didn't go anti trans because she was a Christian curmudgeon. Elon Musk didn't go anti trans because he was a Christian curmudgeon. Both of these people started as avidly pro trans. and moved against it over time as they learned more about the, the science and the social costs and the, the nature and psychological, you know, stuff.You can look up our trans episodes, we don't need to go into that here. But the point being is what motivates people to be a conservative today is often very different than what motivated them in the past, which was maintaining traditions. Which I think changes a lot of the nature of the community.When the conservative community of today goes towards traditions, they go towards them [00:14:00] not out of a fear of change, but because they believe they work. Like you can look at someone like J. D. Vance, like why is he going towards traditions? And I love that all the Four Horsemen of the Atheist Monocle and stuff all now said, because the evidence does show this, it turned out that the Christian traditions were probably better and we shouldn't have met with them.And the one, the Muslim one who did end up converting to Christianity, she even said when the, you know, people would be like, why did you convert, you know? It wasn't like a religious argument, it was, it was a functional argument. She was depressed, she had tried everything, and her psychologist was like, I know this is going to be offensive to you.Oh my gosh. Thought about just trying to pray. Really? And that's what did it for her. She tried and it worked and she started to feel better. And then she, she got into it again.Simone Collins: And this is like Grimes saying she, she might, she might be getting Christianity because it helps her quit vaping, whatever it takes.Malcolm Collins: Sometimes you just need,Simone Collins: sometimes religious fixes problems. That's so true.Malcolm Collins: But yeah, I, I think of that, that well, no, but I mean that that, that means that [00:15:00] the modern conservative today, actually the, when the old right tells the new right, you guys have a lot of progressive traits or, you know, you, you guys used to be in the progressive movement.I think they're, they're right about both of those things, but they're misdiagnosing what's happening. What they picture is happening is the Overton menu, just moving window, just moving further and further to the left. And then. People who, you know, in the nineties would have been like standard progressives in their ideology becoming conservatives today, and I don't think that that's what's actually happening.The core reason why they look like progressives of the nineties is because that they are the rebels trying to buck the social order. And that's fundamentally where the new right comes in is most of them are people who are like, they didn't like the censorship of tech. They didn't like all of these.like anti reality stuff, like, Oh, men, when they transitioned, don't have an advantage in sports. When like, everybody knows that's like clearly, obviously not a true thing. And yet we're supposed to repeat it. They are people who feel like [00:16:00] in the same way that many of them built a grudge against Christianity, telling them what to do in the nineties and in the eighties.That same instinct and those same cultures are now antagonistic against the progressives. And it's funny that it turned out that the way that you got these people to become Catholics, like, like, say, J. D. Vance or something like that, was just to have atheists tell them what to do. Like, you know what?I'm going to become a Catholic, dammit! And, and I actually think that this is where we're getting a lot of growth in Christianity today, is the urban monoculture overplaying its hand and trying to force people to become believers. And I also think it's why, when you look at faiths that are the minority within their region, their members are typically much more faithful.I. e., if you are a Catholic in a majority Protestant country, and the Catholic communities in majority Protestant countries are typically Much stricter in their faithfulness and much more believing and in their sense of community than Catholics in [00:17:00] Catholic majority countries where you see Catholicism dying out much more quickly in terms of fertility rates and in terms of strictness of practice.And, and I think that that's what we're seeing here is being a rebel is useful. And even within America, I think that it is fundamentally wrong to try to raise your kids to be full. America, American, you can be Americana so long as Americana is framed as a state of rebellion against those who control our society and the, the, the people in power and everything like that.But trying to try to push for this normalcy, I don't think works, but thoughts before I go further.Simone Collins: I think you're right. And I think this shows up in, in the fact that you see lower rates of fertility in homogenously religiously conservative, like when it feels forced on you. That back, there's backlashMalcolm Collins: emotionally, fear and threat sensitivity play a big roles.Studies like those from John Himmering and colleagues suggest conservatives have a stronger physiological response to [00:18:00] threatening or disgusting stimuli, e. g. images of spiders or rotting food, measured through inconductance or brain activity in the amygdala. The fear processing hub. This heightened sensitivity might explain a preference for security, authority, and clear boundaries.Progressives, while not immune to fear, seem less reactive to these triggers and more attuned to empathy driven concerns, often prioritizing fairness and harm avoidance as seen in John Haydite's moral foundation theory. Now, I note here that this has actually changed. Okay, continue. John Haidt. John Haidt.Jonathan Haidt. Oh, yeah. Where I do not think, I think in the 80s, a lot of the conservatives, and I mentioned this on other videos, you can check it out, really interesting, where we talk about conservatives motivated voters with disgust. You vote against gayness because of disgust, because it makes you feel disgust.This system largely just collapsed and fell out of favor, culturally speaking where very little is motivated by disgust anymore. Then we had a system that was motivated by. Fear of social shame. This is the cancellation system that progressives really jumped on to. And [00:19:00] the new conservative system is motivated positively through sort of vitalism.Which you see in Trumpianism and everything like that. This idea of like. Be alive, have hope in the future, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You think for yourself.Speaker 5: let's go start a f*****g revolution. Take it!Speaker: The entire world would be better off if these people were permanently removed from these platforms. Like, there is no downside and only upside to see people like Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, Tim Poole never be allowed to publicly broadcast their opinions ever again.Speaker 5: Tread on them! Tread the f**k all over them!Speaker: I don't give a f**k about anybody that winds up at any of these rallies and gets shot or whatever the f**k, okay?Speaker 6: You gotta fight! For your rights! At home in such despair. NowSpeaker 20: Is free speech under threat in the UK? With the rise of so called non crime hate incidents, arrests over grossly offensive memes, can you really speak your mind in 21st century Britain?Speaker 7: [00:20:00] bussy. You gotta fight for yourMalcolm Collins: And there's very little discussed, but I can see why in the older disgust based framework, when these studies were done, discussed would be found more among conservatives.Simone Collins: Oh here, here's a study I found actually just in, in contrast to the one that you cited that in this case, researchers found that conservatives do not appear to feel more disgust than liberals.Malcolm Collins: When was it done? Remember I told you that the way that people motivate political action changed over time.Simone Collins: Yeah, so, this is My guess is is discussed a conservative emotion published when was yours? I told you. Yours was later.Malcolm Collins: No, the one I did was a long time ago, that would have been like the 80s. What I said was, is that in the past, in the 80s and 90s, conservatives [00:21:00] used disgust to motivate voting behavior.Today, they don't use disgust to motivate voting behavior. They use vitalism to motivate voting behavior.Simone Collins: So it's just less Which means that you would noMalcolm Collins: longer see this trait clustered in conservatives like you would have historically. So that makes perfect sense and seems to validate my theory.Simone Collins: Interesting. Okay, fair enough.This is, this is interesting though, because I, I kind of gave up for a while on reviewing studies on conservatives and progressives, because After a while, it became so obvious that it was just about people with agendas, like, basically a bunch of researchers just wanted to publish a study saying conservatives are dumb or conservatives are whatever, it's the same, like, progressives are stupid and, and then they, they're just not really well done they're not very interesting, there's not much that I can act on.So I just, I kind of gave up on them, but I do think that when you see the averages that come out, [00:22:00] you see patterns and there is, we, that, that should help us understand what's going on and what it actually does mean to, to be more progressive versus conservative so that it's a worthwhile discussion and I'm glad you brought it up.Malcolm Collins: If you talk about threat sensitivity, research actually suggests that leftists exhibit higher threat sensitivity to certain types of threats, such as environmental issues and social inequality when compared with conservatives. However. Conservatives are more sensitive to what we would call real threats, such as physical threats or social order threats or crime and terrorism.Interestingly Social studies have shown that conservatives tend to be less threatened by social threats, e. g. outgroups, but more responsive to physical threats, which goes against what a lot of progressives would want to believe, that conservatives are the ones afraid of people who don't think like them, which isn't true, they're afraid of being stabbed by somebody who doesn't think like them, but it is fundamentally the progressives who are more afraid and have a higher tendency of being afraid of people who think differently than them.Simone Collins: I think this, [00:23:00] this reveals though, a very deep set understanding of how you relate to the world. I remember, remember that interview around the pandemic that went viral of some woman who is progressive saying that she was assaulted on, I think the New York subway and how that was just like, you know, normal, like she wasn't supposed to do anything about it.And I think it had to do with this broad concept that it's. I don't know, like it's, it's not your responsibility or there's nothing that you can do about these immediate physical threats and really the, your way of relating to the world is so much more cerebral, so much more, I mean, if you want to be prerogative about it, you would be, or sorry, derogative about it, you would say that it's performative.But I guess they would say that they're focusing on the big problems that really matter. Whereas the conservative mind seems a lot more oriented around what. Do I need to physically address in my immediate area now? Well, [00:24:00] there can I actually protect? Can I actually help?Malcolm Collins: It's like a mass action solutions as we've seen, whether it's, you know, social services or, you know, UBI or anything like that.See our UBI video. They, they appear to make people worse off intergenerationally.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yes. And, and they appear to make cultures that they end up getting bloated. They end up not serving their original function. Argentina is basically a case study to all of this. The ways that progressives attempt to fix things doesn't work, but the ways that conservatives attempt to fix things do work intergenerationally.I. e. because they're focused on the cultures and people who they can influence, i. e. my own culture, my own community my own people. And the paper I was talking about earlier is titled, Who Fears Strangers and Spiders? Political Ideology and Feeling Threatened. Neurologically brain structure differences pop in some studies a 2011 study by found that conservatives tend to have a [00:25:00] larger amygdala, potentially amplifying threat perception, or at least certain types of threat perception.While progressives show more gray matter in their anterior cingulate cortex, ACC, a region linked to conflict resolution and handling ambiguity, fMRI research also hints that conservatives active Regions tied to rule based reasoning more strongly, while progressives lean on areas involved in social and emotional processing.I actually think what we're seeing here, and we've talked about this before, is the memetic virus. It's sort of like a self replicating virus, which Is represented in the urban monoculture when I mean it's a memetic virus. I mean quite literally It's a virus that gets into people's heads and then starts replicating and then uses them to spread itself it needs a certain amount of structure And so it's pretty bad at spreading in people below a certain level of intelligence Um in in which case those people only really conform to it when they realize that they can use signaling their conformity to it Do you get other people to do what they tell them to?This is why you see was like [00:26:00] the low IQ communities. They use the wokest context concepts when they think that they can browbeat someone into following them.Or when they're afraid of bring Val break themselves,Simone Collins: That's really interesting,Malcolm Collins: cognition is another divide conservatives often favor intuitive heuristic thinking quick gut level decisions rooted in tradition or group norms again This might have changed. I don't know. Progressives are more likely. I mean, it seems to me that now progressives make the gut level decisions It's interesting in looking at this research.You can see how much What aligned people with conservatism has changed over time? It was do you actually like are you doing this because of the tradition or are you doing? Like with progressives, are you doing this because you're part of the urban monoculture because there used to be an alliance with like elitist, intellectual culture and fighting back against the system, which, you know, you could say started with the hippies, right?Are you actually fighting for individual freedom or are you fighting with the ultimate goal of imposing your values on everyone else?And that, that sort [00:27:00] of split, you know, was now the progressives that are left are just the ones who want to impose their values on other people. Yeah. Cognition is another divide. Conservatives often favor intuitive heurists. Yes, sorry I said that. Progressives are more likely to engage in analytical reasoning. It seems to be one of your studies of like, trying to make progressives sound smart. Absolutely. Questioning assumptions and weighing abstract systems according to work by psychologist John This can make progressives seem overthinky to conservatives, while conservatives might strike progressives as rigid or simplistic.It's interesting, I'm pretty sure of this flip. Because when I talk to progressives now one person has noted, and I think I have a question, is why do conservatives have like, if you look at like 8 of the 10 long form podcasts, why are they conservatives? And as somebody was saying when they were on the long form podcast, that Gazam Newsom has now done, where he talks with conservative thinkers.Oh, God, and peopleSimone Collins: loveMalcolm Collins: that. I want to get, you know, it's got a review of like 2. 5 or something on, on what's the progressives bombing it? Like, why are you giving these people? OhSimone Collins: my gosh. How sad is that? But conservatives are [00:28:00] loving it though. They're like, wow, he actually listens. Just this idea of a progressive actually listening to conservatives is mind blowing.But the pointMalcolm Collins: being is the reason why conservatives have all this long form interview content and stuff like that and long form talking content like this show is you couldn't do this as a progressive, like I couldn't every day go over for like 45 minutes something that is interesting without updating my beliefs, just be telling you what you're supposed to believe.And most progressives already know what they're supposed to believe. So they don't need to be told again, you know, there, there, there is no. curiosity about digging into these subjects because if you dig into things like human sexuality or arousal or transness, you're bound to accidentally cross the line somewhere.ISimone Collins: don't know. No, I, I listened to a decent amount of long form progressive content, but it's mostly just building a case as to why something is something. So it doesn't need to lead to a changing of minds. So I don't really know what it is.Malcolm Collins: That is [00:29:00] fundamentally, I think, you know, like what ContraPoints does and stuff like that.Yeah. Like one long form progressive area where they do like broad philosophy, but they do it fairly rarely. My X is Y. I, I don't know any that are regular shows, like Philosophy Tube, ContraPoints, all of that stuff is like. Once youSimone Collins: mean just like philosophical discussion, or do you mean discussion about current regularMalcolm Collins: podcasts?If we're looking at regular podcasts, eight of the top 10 are conservative, like daily podcasts or weekly podcasts. I don't know, like the one I can think of that's progressive is Hassan, but Hassan is mostly done in a short form context. And without really engaging with people who have different beliefs or attempting to update his view of the world.Which makes it, you know, less interesting unless you're just there for the shock jock stuff, which Hassan does very well. I mean, I do think that that's how you make progressive. Content interesting is be shocking in how extreme you are, which is one reason why the progressives who have done that and white progressives do well on platforms like tick tock.And [00:30:00] originally on systems like Twitch before, you know, I wonder if that was moderation, like Is it the only reason progressives seem to do well in any platform, whether it's Twitch, because the Chinese are trying to destroy us, or old Twitter, because they are very good at controlling bureaucracies and then putting their finger on the, on the scales.Once the finger is removed from the scales, they end up fleeing like we've seen with TikTok.Simone Collins: Yeah, maybe. I don't, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't spend enough time on TikTok to be a good judge of any of this. I wonder if blue sky is still growing. I do too. I really do.Hmm.Malcolm Collins: You're looking it up? Yeah, looking it up. It says its growth has slowed significantly.Simone Collins: I mean, it would. Yeah. And you get the initial boost, then itMalcolm Collins: slows. Actually, even the, the articles about it slowing are mostly pretty old at this point. So, oops. That, I mean, it could, could continue to grow. I mean, it's, it's astronomically small when compared with two other platforms.So,Simone Collins: yeah,Malcolm Collins: well, any takeaways you've had from this[00:31:00]Simone Collins: that perhaps this isn't just a story of polarization. When we talk about very difficult to cross political divides, perhaps it's also a story of a fundamental way of relating to the world. And perhaps part of the reason why it can be so difficult for conservatives and progressives to relate to each other and effectively communicate is because they have such a different contextualization of self and a different contextualization of that which we must protect.So when people are talking about protecting good things, or, you know, we have to do this, it's just. It's it's difficult to have a debate when your definitions are so different whenMalcolm Collins: I disagree pretty strongly. Yeah, I think that this is what progressives tell themselves when they're trying to look like they're they're seeing both sides of the issue.But I think the core thing is that conservatives, when they look at what they want to protect and [00:32:00] grow. It's typically realistic things. Like it is a real system that could potentially work and improve the world. Whereas a lot of the progressive stuff, like shutting down nuclear power plants and stuff like that, it's not realistic stuff.It's stuff that is based around personal signaling.I think that that's the core difference is the conservative is okay with. Doing what actually makes the world a better place, even if it makes them look like a villain. Whereas the progressive cares more about looking like the good guy than doing good.And we've seen this from conservative icons throughout history, like Ayn Rand, for example, like famously leaned into that. And I think that we're seeing it even more within the new right, the acceptance of Do the right thing, even if it makes you, I mean, what is the pronatalist movement, but that what is hard EA.org, but that,Simone Collins: yeah,Malcolm Collins: I love you to that Simone. I love you too.Simone Collins: You're perfect.What are weMalcolm Collins: doing for dinner tonight?Simone Collins: You can have [00:33:00] potstickers or you can have green curry with coconut rice.Malcolm Collins: Green curry!Simone Collins: Green curry.Malcolm Collins: Green curry is really good.Simone Collins: Well, then that is what you shall have, my love.Speaker 2: Egg Tower! Go ahead, take a bite, Octavian. It's ready for you. Woah, woah, woah! I put a ton of salt on already. Yeah, you can taste it by taking a bite. Right, Titan? This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com

Join us in an inspiring conversation with Catherine Ruth Pakaluk, a professor of economics at Catholic University, and author of 'Hannah's Children'. Catherine, a mother of 14 (8 biological and 6 adopted), shares her experiences of motherhood, the purposefulness behind having many children, and insights from her qualitative research on mothers with large families. We discuss the controversy surrounding the book, factors influencing high fertility rates, and the cultural and policy implications of promoting intentional childbearing. Catherine also provides practical advice on parenting, gender roles in large families, and the surprising joys and challenges of raising many children. [00:00:00]Simone Collins: Hello everyone. We are so excited to be joined today by one of my favorite people in the entire world and inspiration to me. Catherine Ruth. She is a teacher.She's a professor of economics at Catholic University, but more importantly to me, she's author of Hannah's Children, the book that changed my mind from wanting seven kids to 10 plus kids. It got me so excited about it. So we're thrilled. We're thrilled to have you on and we're very keen. to ask you some questions, both about the book, but also about being a super mother.I mean, you've had, you're the mother to 14 children, eight of them that you've given birth to. It's just insane, like, that you're living this, this dream. Just to clarify, you haveMalcolm Collins: 14 children. But that gives you a lot of data points.Catherine Pakaluk: That is true.Simone Collins: So the first thing we were curious as we were prepping for our conversation with you and just wondering is when you published Hannah's Children, which is a book in which [00:01:00] you really share academic research where you did qualitative interviews with.Mothers who had more than five Children or five or more Children, I should say. When you released the book or even when you were doing the research what was the most controversial thing that came up or the place where you got the most pushback or bristling?Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah, probably. If you want to know the truth, probably the fact that I limited my sample that college educated women.Yeah,it's just interesting because a lot of people wanted to you know, number one, you know, are you sort of saying that the only way to be like a full human being is to have a college education, which is funny because I'm like on the other end of this I I'd be. More inclined to say, like, we've done too much college in this country, and we need to kind of free up the education market, free up the credentialing market.But so that was something that came up a lot as a kind of pushback was like, you know, you're, you're, you're zeroing in on sort of this a special group of people, right? Because it's not, it's not everybody. Why did youMalcolm Collins: choose College Educated Women?Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah, well, I did, because that's where in the data, we really see [00:02:00] this the, the, the correlation most strongly, right?So the more education people, women and countries have, the fewer children they have. So you see what I mean? So you kind of want to figureSimone Collins: out this post globalization, post female empowerment world. You're totally right. It's one of the things we were just recording an episode about. was how we can't go back, how researchers have found that, for example, giving men more economic empowerment relative to women actually doesn't increase marriage rates.You know, so like, yeah, no, okay. That makes sense. Now I get it.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah. That was the reason. And of course I wrote the book really for a general audience, a very wide audience. And so I didn't want to, I didn't. Use a lot of space to make that case. It's like, it's like a couple of sentences. And then people ask me later and they're like, Oh, you know, they didn't even read those two sentences.And they, they think like, it's really elitist to just talk to college educated women. I'm like, I didn't have a lot of space here guys, but I did, you know, I did go, I did. Intentionally, from my sample of people who applied to be interviewed, I did grab women from kind of all parts of the [00:03:00] socioeconomic spectrum.So, I mean, you know, there are women who have college degrees who aren't living it up and just toMalcolm Collins: make sure you got some that were poverty and you kept some on who wanted to get PhDs and work in academia.Catherine Pakaluk: 100%. There you go. You nailed it. Like my best friends. Yeah, that's right.Malcolm Collins: So question here. What surprised you most of the like findings or the commonalities in these women maybe that differentiated from your own experience or that affirmed your ownCatherine Pakaluk: experience?Yeah. Good question. Let me see. So, I think this is going to sound funny, but you know, the first piece that kind of confirmed my experience was that like, people have reasons for what they're doing. I mean, I know this is like the whole, you know, this is something you guys talk about all the time.You represent this in a lot of ways. For so many people. And I think that's so cool. Which is like, we don't end up with a lot of kids. We just don't know how that happens, right? Like, obviously like we go to great lengths to make it happen. It's something that you could with a college education or whatever else.A lot [00:04:00] of other things you could do with your time. You could choose it on purpose. So, so that like I, my hunch going into it was like, women are purposeful. Couples are purposeful. They're not accidentally having kids. We all pretty much know how this happens at this point. And like birth control isn't that expensive.So, so why did you do this? So, you know, but again, in a sense, it was a hypothesis. I had to, it had to come out of the research, which was like, yeah, people have reasons and they can say what they are. That was great. So that really confirmed my experience. You know, I, I, like I say in the first chapter, I know when any, every one of my kids was conceived and I could have avoided it.Right. So there has to be like a story there. Like, what were you thinking? Yeah, so that was a big thing.Malcolm Collins: Well, there's a theory that I've been building that's related to this and we were gonna go over it at the pronatalist conference But it said all kids come into existence for one of three reasons one is a Parents are practicing Jesus take the wheel basically You know, they get pregnant when they get pregnant.They keep the kids. They keep [00:05:00] the second category is the parents wanted a child and then did what they needed to to bring that child into existence. And then the third case is the kid was conceived accidentally and the parents then, then kept the kid. And when you're looking at pronatalist interventions, Pretty much every form of pronatalist intervention only affects now we can put the Jesus take the wheel families in a different category because they're ones so rare and already high fertility, but of the other two categories, every pronatalist intervention you can do only affects one category.So, for example, banning pornography, banning contraception, banning abortion, all of these increase the accident kids. Whereas economic factors, increasing house sizes all of that stuff, that affects the intentional kid category. And that It's something that we can be really intentional about as we build out policy, but also to bring focus to the fact that if you look at where Children are disappearing in the United States, [00:06:00] we pointed out on a lot of podcasts, you really only see a drop in the Children.The number of Children and women under 24 in the other categories is either growing or staying steady. And to me that represents a likely accident kids in any time recently. So what actually is causing the existing fertility crash is a disappearance of this accident category of baby. And the best way to resolve this is to increase intentionality around having Children and build more.And I'm wondering how you would think about doing that. You've seen so many families that made this decision.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah. Well, I mean, so if I understand you correctly, you're saying like in a sort of move people from the accident category into the intentionality category, which is like totally possible to do.I think I mean, first of all, I talked, so, so I mean, just, we can't underscore enough, like, I love the, I love the way you guys are thinking about this and it tracks a little bit with some of the things I'm hoping to present at the natalist. Are you guys going to person? Yeah. Or we're not. Great. This is going to be fun.Catherine Pakaluk: Using the code word [00:07:00] NATALISM. ORG or just look up NATALCON, , you can get discount tickets using the code COLLINS, all caps.It's March 28th and 29th this year in Austin. So, just coming up.So it tracks a little bit with the, how I'm trying to formulate things. But right. If people have reasons for what they're doing, then they, and they can say what those reasons are. And they're not like hard to understand. Well, then, you know, that, that should inform our policy tremendously. It should have a huge impact on our, on our policy.That's the first thing. Second thing is. I talked to a ton of people who didn't, like, grow up wanting to have kids in or not wanting to have, like, more than, you know, two kids or one, one kid, 1. 5 kids. So, so people can be persuaded, they can change their mind. And, and that's like, that's like the most normal thing in the world.So, so a hundred percent, like our focus has to be on kind of like what defines this intentionality category, where it comes from. Where, how, what manner of educating kids is likely to perpetuate that? Because this has a lot to do with what, you know, in the policy world would think of as preference formation, you know, kind of, [00:08:00] or somebody else might just say, like, your beliefs, like, what do you believe about things?So, that's more of just a way of underscoring the importance of the question.Simone Collins: Well, I want to dig into this actually, because we. Sort of offline discussed the, a little bit of the way wise change, like often young parents start off wanting kids, or even a lot of kids for one reason, and they sort of build their plan, but then like, there's a totally different driver, and I feel like there's a pretty different way significant disconnect between all of the whys of high fertility families and then most of the policy focus, like I should ask, like, did any of the families that you're interviewing that you interviewed before that you're considering intervening in the future say like, Oh, well, you know, I got a little more money and so then we decided we should have a big family.https: otter. aiCatherine Pakaluk: Yeah. Okay. So, well, I'll get to schooling in a minute. I mean, probably the number one thing was like, I really enjoyed my kid. Right. And that sounds like so simple. It's so ordinary. And yet you don't hear that as much. You don't [00:09:00] hear this sort of these sort of stories. I mean, I would want to merge that and say, like, there's kind of an interaction effect between I really enjoyed being with my kid and some kind of arrangement where people had the freedom to say, well, I'm really enjoying this kid.And yeah. I could just do this full time. I mean, so that there's something there like the woman who gave up being a doctor because she just actually turned out to hate being a doctor.Simone Collins: Yeah,Catherine Pakaluk: but presumably her husband made enough money and they could just keep having babies. So there was this. I mean, I do think the enjoyment or the experience of having kids was a big factor for a lot of people.Then you have to ask that question. How early do you have to have that first kid to kind of yeah. Realize this like, oh, I really do like this and I'd like to do this again and again. Yeah, probably for most people That's going to be like in your 20s.Malcolm Collins: Did you have any examples of husbands who convinced their wives and what arguments worked?Catherine Pakaluk: Well, I had one like famous case and it was so famous and so bizarre that it like it had to be a chapter in the book. It was kind of the exception that proved the rule. Because actually right of 55 people I interviewed, there was only one [00:10:00] case of all the 55 of what I would call husband led childbearing.And it was the least religious couple in my sample. So that I think is kind of fun and mind blowing a little bit. These were not like a bunch of religious families where the husband was like, more, more, more, you know, tribe, established tribe no, it was the least religious couple. And you know, I don't know a lot about him.It'd be great to go back and interview him. What I do know is what I can say is that he was a, he was a faculty member at a, at a really elite school. And I won't say the state because that will, it won't help. So, you know, he's a really successful, talented person, his wife so dual PhD couples.When they met and they first started dating he said to her right away, like, I want nine kids, you know, and actually she learned about it first through his mom and she's like, why? You know? And I guess. I guess part of the point about, like, he's really bright, and he was a bodybuilder, and has a gym in the basement, and you're like, okay, does he just, he thinks he's got, like, he's, he's, he's, he likes his life, he likes who he is, and he wants to have more of himself.They, they [00:11:00] didn't describe themselves as especially religious. They did identify as Jewish, but she said really clearly that Jewish part is separate from the having kids part, whereas all the other Jewish women I interviewed would have said, no, no, no, like, of course, this is like the fulfillment of our religious beliefs.Right. And so how did he succeed? I mean, he just, he just said he really wanted these kids. And The way she put it, I drilled down. I'm like, look, if you don't want the kids, how do you keep going along with this? She said, it's really hard to make it sound like he's not a dick. Like this is what he says.And he's like, but she's like, they have this great marriage. They're really they're really into each other. And she said, you know, and this is. I think really telling, and it kind of reminds me of something that our friend at MoreBirths the, the ex account MoreBirths says she said, you know, he doesn't ask for much.He, he doesn't want me to cook for him. He does his own laundry. He doesn't, this is like the one thing he really wants for me. We have a great marriage. And so like, why would, why wouldn't I just want to give that to [00:12:00] him? And so that sounds like in a way so old fashioned.Malcolm Collins: I make her have lots of kids and she cooks for me and she cleans and she makes our money because I'm a feminist, full empowermentSimone Collins: on my part.That's interesting though, because we also didn't come from a religious background and Malcolm was the one that led the interest in fertility. See, that isCatherine Pakaluk: interesting.Simone Collins: And then I,Catherine Pakaluk: well, I do, I do kind of wonder if there's part of this like secular, right. This like emerging secular, right. Which you guys are.Certainly representative of in some sense. Nobody's representative of anything at the day, right? We'reMalcolm Collins: certainly mixing in there An episode on this in the near future one of our fans who sometimes collects data collected data in utah that was really interesting He was looking at fertility rates of mormons and voting patterns and he found some really interesting stuff in this study but one of the things that I found particularly interesting is that if You divide counties by you know, Mormon voted [00:13:00] Trump, Mormon voted against Trump, non Mormon voted Trump, non Mormon voted against Trump.Non Mormon voted Trump has the same fertility rate as Mormon voted against Trump. So voting for Trump is as impactful for your fertility rate as being Mormon.Catherine Pakaluk: Mormon in Utah.Malcolm Collins: So Trump'sSimone Collins: solution to the birth rate. GetMalcolm Collins: on my team. It'll fix the problem. Fixing may be more of a thing than people realize in terms of the vitalism.You know, one thing I was wondering was because what I see with a lot of people, like my anecdotes, when I ask families who wanted to have a lot of kids and didn't end up having a lot of kids is it's always, well, they had that one really bad pregnancy scare or something like that. Could you run into that frequently?Were these families who just didn't have that happen or did they have it happen and they kept going?Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah. That's a good question. And actually I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to come back to this. Like, well, what, what, what, what kept them going? What was the why? And oftentimes it was really enjoying that first baby.And so, yeah, these aren't people who had like the [00:14:00] nightmare experience with their first kid. And so the first point is like, Yeah. Your experience with kids actually highly influences like whether you have more kids. Like that's a really, which kind of brings us back to like, well, what are those experiences?Do you feel as one of the women said, like alone in a box,Simone Collins: weCatherine Pakaluk: send people home from the hospital. They are alone in a box with their baby.Simone Collins: Yeah, basically a good wayCatherine Pakaluk: to put it. Actually, that's true. No wonder. No wonder you wouldn't want to go back to that. For sure. So were there no bad experiences? I would say there were a couple of bad experiences.Where people kept going. Of course, I don't know the counterfactual. There could be, you know, bazillions of people who were potentially like multi parity people who had a terrible experience and didn't go on to have children. And I never interviewed them because that wasn't part of my study design.But I did interview a few people who had bad experiences at the beginning. Postpartum depression. Tough kids, that sort of thing. But the description there was kind of like, we really believed what we were doing when to keep going. And at some point it leveled off. So there was also this kind of interesting idea about like three was the [00:15:00] hardest number of kids to have.And that, you know, if you, if you kept going and got that far, like after that, it was kind of like, there wasn't that much else to, to learn. It's like, it sounds like weird, but yeah, that was.Simone Collins: Yeah, no, that's why after three, well, really after four economies of scale kicks in, and I guess with you, you like came in with economies of scale, like suddenly, like you became mother to six children.Yeah.Catherine Pakaluk: Economies of scale. But I think there's another piece, which is you know, like one mom said something like, well, I hate, you know, she said something, I feel really bad for the people who give up after two, because like, now you're good at this. And so there's this idea that like, there's a skill to be learned.And if you take that 10, 000 hours concept.Simone Collins: Yeah. ICatherine Pakaluk: actually haven't worked it out. How many kids do you have to have to do 10, 000 hours of parenting? That's a quick question. Gosh, like, actually not that much, like, you're, you're, you're,Simone Collins: a couple of years in you're.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah. You're probably pretty close, right?Simone Collins: Even if you're not doing a whole lot of childcare. Yeah. Right.Catherine Pakaluk: Cause unlike the other skills, you have to like go out and do them. For a few hours a day, whatever that is like to 10 years over a few hours a day. But anyway, I mean, [00:16:00] just take that concept. I think this is a big piece of our culture is that people think of parenting as a binary condition.Like you're, you're our parent or you aren't a parent. But there's such a thing as being like a better parent and a worse parent. And actually I think that's why people don't like to talk about it. Cause it seems like you're criticizing people like, Oh, you're, you don't even, you don't have much experience, but actually we've got to talk about parenting as a skill in part because it's great news.it means that actually you can get better at it.Simone Collins: True. Yeah. Speaking of parenting as a skill, I mean, you are, yeah, you've done a lot of it. I'm very curious to hear what one you would say is most misunderstood about being in a large family, a parent in a large family. And, and two things that you learned after having a lot of kids where you now like.When you meet someone who's becoming a first time parent or they're about to start their family, you're like, let me hit this off.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Maybe I'll go backwards. Things that I want to head off at the, I'm like, I look back, especially with my last few kids and I'm like, [00:17:00] wow, I didn't need all this stuff.Like all that stuff, like those, you know, the babies, you got all like four different kinds of strollers and baby seats. And I just didn't know. Right. All the stuff I really. Maybe there's no way to prevent that, but I think part of it is like at the beginning you feel like, it's like the crash test dummies, you feel like you need to sort of, everything has to be protected and it needs a tool or a machine.My last couple kids I just had like a thing I threw, like a backpack or a thing and I just, the car seat never left the car, I didn't tote things around. I hardly use strollers to be honest. Same actually. Yeah, I mean, maybe because I don't live in a city, but you know, mostly if I went out with my kid on foot, I would carry the kids.So, I found baby wearing to be really something that freed me up to do a lot of things. You have your hands when you're, yeah, when you're wearing your baby.Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean,Catherine Pakaluk: I used to teach classes with the baby on my back, which was great. Anyway, so I think there was a sense in which when I was younger, like, there's just a lot of stuff.And like, I carried a huge diaper bag at the beginning. And then later it was like, I don't think I [00:18:00] need more than. Two items and I can stick them in something else. You know my pocket like there's a diaper and a and a onesie in my pocket I'm good to go, right? It's a good pocket that that goes against theSimone Collins: female conspiracy against pockets,Malcolm Collins: but ISimone Collins: knowMalcolm Collins: here's a question What are your thoughts on advice to people who are dating to attempt to find a partner who wants a lot of kids?Yeah,Catherine Pakaluk: well, you definitely have to be up front right and I think people have to like have to match on that from the beginning. I don't, I don't know. I guess I've known a few cases where it was like, surprise. I really, but I feel like that ought to be like very high on the profile. Oh yeah. Right. It could kind of cut through a lot of stuff.I suppose people don't want to like reduce the pool or something, but fundamentally that's what you have to do is reduce the pool.Simone Collins: You get to know sooner if you filter them out earlier. Otherwise you've just wasted two weeks or more. Yeah.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah. Cause I think if you don't have kids, I mean, right. If you don't, If you don't have kids, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a pretty big sell.I mean, it's a, it's a, something you really have to kind of [00:19:00] get through. But yeah, that's my number one thing with my, my own kids that are dating my college students. You're like, you, you, like my son dated a girl in the fall and they met on hinge and, you know, and you're like, Did you know, do you know if she wants kids, you know, three weeks in, you know, it's like, Oh, it's not going to work out.And you're like, that's what it was. Wasn't itjustkids, right? It's like, well, cause if anybody will say you want kids, maybe you have to be more specific. It's like, I want to get married to start a family like right away because that'll scare them off really quickly. Yeah.Simone Collins: No, would that have scared you off Simone?Well, on our second date, Malcolm was like, I want to have a lot of kids, but I didn't say right away. I didn't say right away. Well, it was on the second date. It was on the second date. Yeah, it was after and it wasn't like the first conversation. I think it's a good second date subject. Yeah.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah. You don't want to let it go.You don't want to let it go too far. Yeah. There's some chemistry and attract. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, obviously, like, look, churches do this for people. And so there's a lot of this happening in churches where you don't [00:20:00] have to be explicit, like you're both, you're part of some tiny traditionalist group.And you know, like everybody in this church already agrees that this is what we're going to do when we get married. And then you don't have to have all those conversations. But I think if you're just dipping into the big pool and a dating app or whatever, you're going to have to get it out there quickly.Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. That's fair.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: So at the beginning I interrupted you, you were going to say the second thing that you thought was interesting in the pool of people that you had or surprising toSimone Collins: you. That surprised you about theCatherine Pakaluk: interviewees? Right. Well, I guess this was interesting. I guess. Well, I don't know.Like, I'm, I'm familiar with Catholics. I'm Catholic. But I interviewed women of a bunch of different religious backgrounds and beliefs, and I didn't really know what the story was going to be. And I think what surprised me was to find out that while religious identity was strong in most of my interviewees, except for that one, that one couple what surprised me was how I don't know.Way to go, baby. Is he drinking? She's drinking the beer. Yeah, basically. Just Malcolm. That's so cute. It's a girl, right? [00:21:00] She's a girl. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, what surprised me was actually like how non credal the common sort of religious factors were. Meaning they were Kind of common across all of these different Jewish and Christian groups who shared the same, you know, or, or partially share the same scriptures.So this kind of like thing that you can say in a, in a, in sort of non religious terms that children are blessings, I guess it's a religious term of like a blessing. But you know, it wasn't like, well, the Mormons have this One idea. And then the Jewish women had a totally different idea and that it was really linked to their specific religious creeds.It was pretty general. And so I think that was interesting. So I, I've started to think and, and by the way, what was the content of that? It was this, we, we might call it pronatal belief. I know that's what some people like to call it or like a conviction that children are, are really important, worth having.Yeah. And I think what that drove me to think, and I'm, I'm really kind of [00:22:00] thinking about this going forward, looking at the social science of religion. I mean, you've seen this Pew study that was out this week about how like Christianity stopped falling. I guess the number of people who identify as Christian stopped falling.It's not exactly like it's rising, but it's stopped falling, like that's what Ryan Burge is calling it. Like maybe we hit the floor of and so. I think that the study of religion, the scientific study of religion in this country has got to move past like just these denominations. Like, that's as much as we do.We just sort of survey. And what I'm finding is there's this like minority group in all these different religious groups that has this very strong we could say biblical set of principles or beliefs about the value of having children, but And if you want to know who's having kids, you, it's like, that's who you have to find.It's like the 5 percent of Mormons and the 5 percent of Catholics and the, and so it's religious. It is religious for those people, but you couldn't find them just by finding out who's religious. You'd have to dig into, so it's like intersect the being religious [00:23:00] with this specific belief. Like, so it's like, what kind of religion?Did you find anySimone Collins: unifying, was it that they also lived in really high fertility communities? Like were there correlatory factors that seem to indicate like, okay, so this is, this is what makes them that 5 percent of Mormon or Catholic or whatever it may be that is really high fertility.Catherine Pakaluk: Well, I'd be hesitant to draw a strong conclusion from my relatively small sample, which wasn't representative but I did have like all kinds.I mean, I did have people who did live in these smaller communities, but a lot of times, like, they went to move near them. So they already, they got this belief, or they became convinced of this. And then that's why they sought out the community. So the causality went in the other direction. It's true. I had one lady who moved to a, because of a school and then met a bunch of people and was like, okay, I can keep going.But then you've got the couple in chapter seven and they just are like opening the Bible and they feel like, you know, they're Jesus take the wheel types. And and they just are off by themselves at their own church in the Rocky mountains. So I think we need to do more [00:24:00] research on that. I think there were certainly cases where clearly the orientation or belief was coming out of how they were, how they had been.Educated how they've grown up and that's a piece that's relatively understudied. So it's something we can take to the data in the next couple of years and kind of ask like what, what types of schooling most predict higher, higher birth rates. Mike, like my hunch would be, we'd see a lot of homeschooling, we'd see a lot of private independent schools, like micro schools, co ops, things like that.That'd be my hunch, but I haven't asked the data yet.Simone Collins: Yeah, we're really, we'd love to see more research on that too. And he's like, in terms of,Malcolm Collins: oh, go ahead, you're talking about the, the idea of these high fertility sub factions of these religious communities is, is participation in them intergenerational?Like does it persist with fidelity or do they deconvert to the other type of Christian within this community? Have you seen?Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah.Catherine Pakaluk: That well, that's the question. There's been a little bit of work on [00:25:00] intergenerational transmission of values in in that I looked at in in European data, but my problem with that data, because it would it would it would argue that basically like religious groups don't pass on their values like particularly well, but I would argue that the thing that they're not looking at is the.Beliefs of the groups like it's not granular enough. Because some people clearly are. And so, you know, you just need to get more granular. What type of religious group is it? And then how do they educate their kids? We know that sort of alternative schooling isn't that common in Europe. So. If I were to guess I would say that that's the missing link.Malcolm Collins: Oh, I I don't know I actually i'm gonna push back here I think that a lot of people who are from religious backgrounds when they see things like the rate of religion stabilizing or growing what they think it is this family's getting better at keeping their kids within the religion and what it actually is is people training new types of religion that are radically different from their parents version of christianity.Yeah and i've seen increasingly poor [00:26:00] rates of keeping kids, especially within the incredibly conservative iterations of religions. One of the things I was telling Simone recently, I didn't know is apparently, and I've got to look for more information on this, but the F. L. D. S. The F. L. D. S. R. FLDS are the most extreme.Those are the Mormons that have like multiple wives and dress kind of frumpy. Apparently they just held their third gay pride parade this year.Speaker: Two towns on the Utah Arizona border with deep roots in the FLDS Church will celebrate pride this weekend. Jenna BreE shows us how queer people are openly showing their colors.,Speaker 2: An area known for its polygamous community and ties to the fundamentalist LDS Church,Speaker 3: the history of the town.Um, you know, I feel like it kind of gets a bad rep.Speaker 2: Last year, Short Cr in the fourth of july par they plan on marching wit again this year..Malcolm Collins: Like we're seeing within the most extreme factions of these religion communities, they're losing [00:27:00] young people to woke like at a way higher rate. Which is really shocking.It's not what I would expectSimone Collins: because I thought they were more culturally isolated. It'sMalcolm Collins: what I'd expect if you have a cultural preference for high authority and following what the average of the community pressure.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Go ahead. I was going to say that we definitely have to study this more because we don't really know.Simone Collins: More data is needed. I want to hone in on something that you said about sort of the factor that made people want to have a lot of more kids,Which is that first kid is that they, they really like it. Like they have one and they get hooked. And I think Malcolm and I got hooked after two or three, like it wasn't, I think.We think the hardest number of kids to have is one. It's just like, you're doing everything for the first time. It's too stressful. But I'm also curious from a policy or cultural design or lifestyle design standpoint, if you came across factors that you think correlated with that being a good versus bad experience, like basically being alone in a [00:28:00] box with your kid, sort of terrified and alone versus super enjoying what we think is like the hardest stage first time with everything.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah. Hmm. You know, I'm just, I'm reaching, it's not something that that I, I mean, I would certainly say I was gonna say some sounds, sounds obvious. Like, I would certainly say for me, the, the, the hardest transition was zero to one.Hmm.I think in terms of like, just the, the chaos of parenting, it was harder.Like at three or four, or three toddlers was really tough. Oh. But yeah, like the lifestyle changes, like the psychological shock was biggest from zero to one. There she goes again. But I had a lot of I had a lot of kind of cultural capital coming into that because I came out of a large family.So I kind of had this vision, like it's going to get better. Oh, you'd seen it before. Yeah. And I felt like that's probably the, the me, you know, like that would, that would have to be, but then, you know, then you kind of bump into this. I think it's one of the reasons why lower birth rates beget lower birth rates, like how you get into these traps that keep cycling [00:29:00] down because I think that the fewer kids there are around, the less you have like a, a belief that it will get better.You haven't seen it before. So that we don't have any context to interpret how difficult that is.Simone Collins: Yeah. At one point in the book, you do talk about the. The shortage of, of people growing up in America who even have had exposure to infants in their entire lives. Like maybe when they have a kid, that's their first time encountering a young human which definitely was.It's pretty much the experience for me, for example.Catherine Pakaluk: So do you thinkSimone Collins: that'sCatherine Pakaluk: a big factor? I think that's a huge factor. I think, I think it's got to be a huge factor. I mean, I did some back of the envelope, you know, calculations, like how many, how many years of your childhood would you have been exposed, like even if you had one sibling, which is a pretty normal family these days, two kids.Well, like most normal people are going to have their two kids and probably maximally like a five year span, which means that by the time, by the time your brother or sister is [00:30:00] born, you're like two by the time you're six, you're not going to remember a baby by the time you're 12, a baby never happened in your house, you know?Right? So I think that's gotta be enormous. Like, and then you don't have cousins nearby and then that's it. That's, that's got to be really good. When you feel strange, like, well, think about like you're in the hospital and like you've got these unrelated human beings who are like, let me show you how to put up a baby on your boob.Yes. Yeah. And change a diaper. And you think about like the dogs and the cats and that like you think what a weird species that we like need someone To show us how to feed our our offspringMalcolm Collins: Which I hadn't thought to ask before but I guess it's actually really important for this new theory I have if you were going to Estimate what percentage of these high fertility families, you know five kids over when you were talking to them. Didn't plan on their children i. e. They were using a full jesus.Take the wheel thing Not not tracking their cycles not anything like that Versus what percent do you think really intended on having every kid they had? [00:31:00]Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah well i'm pretty sure because I did ask like I asked about every kid in the interview It's it doesn't necessarily come out in the book I'm, pretty sure it was like one out of 55 was the jesus take the wheel case YeahMalcolm Collins: Yeah, that was my way as well.Incredibly rare. I was talking with a Catholic reporter about this and I was like, it's rare within Catholic communities. And he was like, what makes you think that? And then Simone had great evidence for that. She said, well, they track their cycle so well that they were the first to realize the vaccines were causing issues.The only reason you would know your cycle that well.Catherine Pakaluk: Yes, yes, exactly. I don't think they would mind if I yeah. Share this case, but well, I'll just say I know a young couple. I wouldn't say who they are, but they got married. They're Catholic. They got married. They knew because she was, they were tracking before they got married, cause they wanted to have kids.They knew that they got married like on peak fertility. Nobody would know that. And so like they got off their honeymoon and knew that there was a good chance they were expecting because they got married on peak, peak, peak fertility tested at the earliest possible minute, you know, so, but [00:32:00] like under two weeks from their wedding, they knew they were expecting.And you nailed it when you get people looking at them like you definitely must have like gotten pregnant before you got married But that's because people don't understand how granular that is and how much I could know about your cycle So that's really interesting. I only met one family I put them in the book because again like my job was to display the whole diversity of it The general story was that people did intend and knew exactly when they got pregnant but there was that one couple that in chapter seven and we're like we just didn't ever we didn't ever do anything to plan or it Yeah.Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's really rare. And I, and I think that's what we should expect. Like, I think people are kind of, people are smart and they, they learn stuff and, well, IMalcolm Collins: don't, I don't think it used to be that way. I, I think that this is a, that used to make up maybe 30 percent of, of some populations birth rate, maybe.You know, 50 60 years ago.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah, I think that's correct. And it's, but it's, it's one of the reasons why I don't know, some people sort of naive idea that we could just like ban [00:33:00] birth control would somehow like change the picture. I don't think it would change the picture.Malcolm Collins: It might for like communities in poverty that are really uneducated like with apps being what they are now.I think people just people find a way. Also,Simone Collins: historically, you can see different birth rate trends and when economic prosperity goes up, suddenly birth rates go up to like, I've always kind of had a ways, even without the apps, even without, you know, you can pee on you. There have been so many ways for people to take care of their children.I mean,Catherine Pakaluk: probably, you know, probably like the teenagers and the kids that like people who aren't planning to have sex and then all of a sudden, you know, so they weren't tracking or something. But that's, again, that's that third category that's shrinking, this kind of accidental ones. But I think among the people who like.Are coupled up or would like to be coupled up. I mean, I think people are they're either using birth control. They're tracking tracking is becoming incredibly common. And it's like, so easy to do it at this point. I do think that's going to be a huge piece of the futureMalcolm Collins: of what percent of the kids were in public schoolCatherine Pakaluk: of the kids of the [00:34:00] women that I talked to.Yeah. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Oh, I'm curious. We're around public school in these communities. Or was this That's a greatCatherine Pakaluk: question. You've asked me a question for which I don't have a ready answer. I didn't total that up. But if I'm just thinking through the people I talked to it was certainly under 50%.Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah.That makes sense. Well, I mean, this is, I see it being terrified. We have our kids until middle school and public school or until they say they don't want to be there anymore. And our own community is like, you can't put that, like, what are you doing?Catherine Pakaluk: Amazing.Yeah, we'll see.Yeah, we'll see. Well, I mean, I think that I mean, we're, this is a kind of a funny moment to talk about schooling because my own, I think like 10, 15 years from now, the, the menu of options that are going to be out there for schooling is going to be so diverse and so different from what we have now.Malcolm Collins: Well, the Collins Institute is improving quickly. We're, we're adding a test and tutor to it, which should be ready by the summer. We're trying toSimone Collins: like make possible at scale. And [00:35:00] very affordably aristocratic tutoring, which just seems like such a great way of learning, you know, just being able to explore what you like and talk to someone who can guide you through itCatherine Pakaluk: andSimone Collins: not be, you know, taken through this industrial system.But yeah, I mean, I think a big factor that we look at certainly with pronatalism is just. School choice and educational freedom because there does seem to be this element of mainstream culture that just takes the focus away from that point that you point out of just kids are good. You know, kids are a blessing.Kids are good. And that that is this really important meme that takes place with high fertility. And I'm, I'm curious to get your thoughts on like other ways that a country trying to improve its birth rates can do that. I mean, we've, when you were talking about your exposure to babies thing, for example, I was thinking about, I think it was in Australia, that one case where the birth control program, where teens had to take home baby dolls yeah, they were like, Oh wow, this is, I can handle this.This is great. Like they, they got exposed even just fake baby dolls and it [00:36:00] encouraged more fertility, which is crazy. But then there's, there's kind of examples of like watching teen pregnancy reality TV. really successfully reducing rates of, of teen pregnancy. Cause they saw it as like low class or undesirable or disastrous.And I'm curious if you saw anything among the families, I mean, it sounds like even within your family. Yeah. With your kids who are dating. There are some discussions on like, well, I mean, do the partners want to have kids? How do you promote a pronatalist kids are a blessing culture within your own family?And how have you seen the families you've spoken with do it in a way that's not like, you know, creepy or backfiring.Catherine Pakaluk: Right. Well, I, there's probably a lot of things to say if there's like the policy stuff, by the way, I wanted to say that I think, okay. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm hopeful that like the remote work stuff is going to keep going because I think it's crossed.Yes. I think that's been, I mean, look, I, I work remote. I mean, although I, I have a job that wouldn't have been called remote work for a long time, but when I was in [00:37:00] college and I knew, like, I wanted to have kids and be, you know, be, be able to have kids. I remember looking at the menu of options. I was like, well, I'm, you know, Doing economics and math.And, you know, there's a strong pull to do wall street or finance at that. And I'm looking at it like you have to be in your actual office, you know, like 40, 50, 60 hours a week, not going to work because I want to have a couple of kids. So I'm looking at it as a young person thinking, how come like academics aren't like all with a huge family?Cause I'm thinking to myself is what blows my mind. It seems like these people have very flexible jobs, right? So, so why? Yeah, well, I think like academia is like tilted left and sort of anti natal as long as I can, I mean, certainly for 100 years, if not more.Malcolm Collins: Have you run into anti natalists yet?Catherine Pakaluk: At university or in general?Within yourMalcolm Collins: job or within your promotion? Yeah, yeah, for sure. ICatherine Pakaluk: get emails from them a lot. Oh, okay. I'm like, yeah, I mean, you know, like the nastier ones are the ones who send you these little scripts. Do you guys get them? Like little handwritten, scrawled notes and you're like, Oh, [00:38:00] yes. I'm looking at this script and like, I think you're 95 and you're in the Bay Area.Was it on aSimone Collins: used, like, bill envelope? Cause that's what we got. Like, you know, the ones with the windows of like, he just used, cause he's, he cares about the environment. There are too many people. So he's free using. Oh yes.Catherine Pakaluk: They're like, you're like, you areMalcolm Collins: just like filled with old bills and stuff like that.And like writing books.Catherine Pakaluk: No. Exactly. No, they, they do, they come out of the woodwork. They send you, you know, letters and you're, and you're like, you're so old and you're so out of touch, like, who is paying your bills? Like, you know, buddy, this is just outrageous. So I don't, I mean, I was gonna say, I don't have any colleagues or any, I haven't experienced anything super nasty personally.Good. The antenatal, you work at CatholicMalcolm Collins: University though, so. Oh.Catherine Pakaluk: You would think, but I will say like politically there, it's all over the map.Simone Collins: Oh,Catherine Pakaluk: yeah. I'm soSimone Collins: sorry. Catholic, but university, Malcolm, university.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah, no, no, it's true. Yeah, I won't, I probably should, I should probably just leave it there.Simone Collins: So, [00:39:00] and that makes sense though.I mean, cause when we speak with academics especially when they're young. They're like, well, you know, no one would take me seriously if I got pregnant. And in all these things, I've been told not to have kids. And I mean, actually the same thing happened to us when we were in private equity. We had people be like, well, don't have kids until you've completely gone through the entire process and sold your company.And we're like, oh, should we not tell them that we're pregnant right now? This is, and we just did it. And that's the thing is you have to just do it. You just have to do it. You just have to do it. Well, my husband's not on this.Catherine Pakaluk: My husband's not in this conversation, but at some point the four of us will sit down together and like, you guys are not short on confidence.And you know, like we're kind of similar, we're like, well, you know, my, you know, my way or the highway. So, but you know, it's true that definitely in the eighties and the nineties, like there was this very normie kind of thing, which was like in academia, you know, you had your, you, you. You had your, you finished your degree, you got tenure and then, you know, we were like 38, you would kind of start having, and it like didn't work for a lot of people and little by little people were like, Oh, you know, kind [00:40:00] of, so my advisor, one of my advisors was a female.And you know, she really never said anything outright. But she at some point she dropped me the tiniest line and said, you know. You're, what did she, how did she put it? She said, you're, you're you're narrow, like you're, you're narrow, narrowly focused peers will regret their narrowness later.And I,and I thought like, that's not exactly a encouragement, but it's also not a discouragement. So it's kind of, you know, it's, it's pretty good for the ivory tower, you know, broadly antinatalistSimone Collins: environment. That was her like, underground railroad of hinting.Catherine Pakaluk: She didn't have kids and most of the women in the faculty didn't have children, but you know, you never really know like some people already know youMalcolm Collins: were pregnant when she said that, though.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah, that was, that was like, it was like three kids in and I'm sort of like, I'm sorry, I didn't get you this stuff. I'm slow. You know, she was like, she was a little, you know, she's the one voice of like, don't worry too much aboutSimone Collins: it.Catherine Pakaluk: Which was, yeah, I really am. I'm really great. I probably saved that message [00:41:00] someplace.I thought it was like a miracle. But you know, I mean, especially when I was in my twenties, I didn't think of, of trying to find out why the childless women on the faculty didn't have kids. Like, was it because they had waited too long and couldn't, or is it because they didn't want to? I never asked her.Simone Collins: Interesting.Catherine Pakaluk: Seemed impertinent.Simone Collins: I can't remember if this was mentioned in many of your interviews but did you find any trends with. male versus female task sharing within the household. I mean, there was a pretty good mix of like, there were some women who were full time mothers. There were some women who had sort of hybrid part time careers.Someone fully in. Was there a pattern?Catherine Pakaluk: What I heard a lot of was a lot of nice stories. I mean, again, you know, most mostly people volunteer to talk to an interview about their family size. You know, you're certainly not getting the people who are really upset about how things are going. So, I mean, I realize there's a bias there, but I got a lot of nice stories about, I mean, I guess I would say like, we would broadly think of it as like, we [00:42:00] figured out a way between us to kind of like share tasks in a way that is kind of division of labor ish.And I would say that in general, it was kind of and I, there's like that one quote from The academic couple at the beginning of the book, and she says at the end of that chapter, she says something like we started out like kind of progressive and egalitarian. We're like, we're going to split everything 50, 50, whatever.And she's like, but here we are with five kids. And it's kind of weird how traditional it's turned out to be. It's not intentional. It's just, it was like, we each leaned into our strengths and this is what we got. Whereas, you know, you had the couple where he was staying at home full time. So I guess I would say I heard a lot of stories about when you have a lot of kids there's a lot going on.Like your household is certainly a complicated, almost as a small enterprise, right? It's something else that you're, you know, you have your work to manage and you have this other enterprise and if you're doing it well, you know, you've got like, you're developing your kids and you're, and so that, because it's an enterprise. We do the thing that we do in human life. Generally, we sort of like we make rational decisions like you're better at this. So you do it. So I [00:43:00] wouldn't say like, I know, I knew this guy a couple, he's an academic. I knew him through, through conferences. And they were homeschooling and their, their deal was like, he did all the cooking cause he was so good at it and he loved it.And it was the deal because she was homeschooling. So she was like, well, by the time my day is over I've had it and he just did the, so I wouldn't say I got like this really long list of sort of like super traddy looking things, but rather sort of like, it's worked out well because, you know, he's good at some stuff.I'm good at some stuff and efficiency means that's how you do it. You just, that actually says a lotSimone Collins: though. Pretty radical because I think modern marriages are often like we are peers. We each do exactly the same thing. You know, maybe we make almost exactly the same amount of money with the male making a little bit more.And with children, everyone has to do exactly the same thing interchangeably. And otherwise it's not, it's like earlyCatherine Pakaluk: on. I mean, my husband and I didn't have any role like. We don't have any like principles about who does what and, and, [00:44:00] but I figured out really quickly, like if, if I, if I divided up like the nighttimes equally and I was like, you take this night and I take that night, the kid was going to not be happySimone Collins: and ICatherine Pakaluk: was going to not sleep well.So it was going to be like, not a good deal. So I'm just like, okay, I'm nicer in the middle of the night and I want my kids to have a nice life. So I'm going to see them in the middle of the night. But if we were to fast forward and like, look at their teenage years their early teen years, he does so much more with them in terms of like taking them to sports stuff.Oh, that's interesting. So like stages ofSimone Collins: life too. Cause I would say likeCatherine Pakaluk: now, you know, now I'm working a lot more than I did when they were babies and he is. kind of, in a sense, I don't want to say over the hill. That's not right. He's, he's very productive. But he has done enough in his profession that he has time to, so he's like, you know, taking him to, he oversees the piano lessons, he oversees the music, he oversees the sports.And I'm so glad, I'm so glad because those are. The things that I'm not really that good at. I'd be way inclined to be too much of a gentle parent, like the minute they're crying over a piano lesson. I'd be like, all right, that's it. We're done. We're [00:45:00] saving that money. My husband's like, no, this is so good for them.We're doing this. We're going to push through it. So, you know, I'm glad I was the person that was getting up in the middle of the night. Cause I think the babies were. We're better for it. Better off for it. But we didn't, we didn't go into marriage with like this game plan. Like this is how I'm going to do it.Right. You just sort of go hit the moment. You're like, yeah, I'll take him at two in the morning. Like you suck at this. It's like basicallySimone Collins: true. And you touched on something though, talking about that, you know, you, you do invest in some activities for your kids. And, and we also talked about sort of frugality at the beginning of this conversation briefly.We, we, one of our big arguments is that. Parenting is completely overblown now, like people very, very unsustainably parent their kids and that's why they're like, well, I can't afford to have a kid, but they're basically raising a millionaire, like a retired playboy. And like, I don't know why you think that's normal.Like it hasn't been for the vast majority of humanity. And I, I, but I, I feel very conflicted on this. Like, I don't want to both Malcolm and I are like, we want to give our kids everything we also want to be [00:46:00] reasonable. We don't want to spoil them. We don't want to coddle them. And we also don't want to clutter their lives with things that are like, you know, to your point, like we all get too much stuff.So. Where have you found it to be, like, really useful to invest in things in your kids? And where have you just decided, like, we don't need to spend money on this?Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah, well, I definitely think skills and skills and things that are really challenging to learn. I think it's hard to self teach and a lot of those types of things, like, you know, I would say certain, certain academic things.I mean, like, you know, you could do a lot in math and languages that. That your local schools aren't gonna be able to do. You can invest in tutors if you can't do it yourself. Those are things that are hard to just tell your kid, like, just pick it up. Right. Whereas whereas, you know, some of the skills my kids have are things that, because we didn't do, we didn't occupy, we didn't have tablets.They didn't have devices. They didn't have video games. Like they went outside and did stuff. And those are things we, we really under parented in that sense. So my, my three oldest sons are all like kind of really accomplished fishermen. I don't know anything about fishing and neither does my husband.Did theySimone Collins: just go out and figure it out once?Catherine Pakaluk: Yes, they 100 [00:47:00] percent did.Simone Collins: How did you not getCatherine Pakaluk: CVSSimone Collins: cold on you? This is, this is the mystery.Catherine Pakaluk: No, we lived in Florida. Well, this is the funny thing about it. We, we moved there. I thought my kids were going to eat and buy alligators. And but we lived, we had like, you know, there's, there's water everywhere.And the kids are like, can we go to Bass Pro Shops? We want to learn to fish. Me being this like Northern sort of like. educated, you know, safety conscious mom. I'm like, they're going to die. Like they're going to get sharp stuff, you know? And of course, like, I know nothing at this point. I know nothing, you know?And then I think it was the grandma that brought him to best, but like, it wasn't me. Right. So the grandma brought him over there. They go out there with their stuff. And then like the next thing, I don't see them for four hours. And so you're like, Hey, this is kind of good. Like that's good for them.Right. But actually the end of the story is really kind of cool. Like they just, they became such good fishermen because of all the time they spent unsupervised, just kind of figuring it out. So it's kind of a mixture. There's a great story about them kind of in their mid teen years when they went out on a charter sea fishing boat.And well, it was like a, like [00:48:00] a neighbor brought them on this thing and it was like a fancy thing. So they're out in this. deep sea boat off the gulf coast of Florida. And the captain says, Hey, they can't line up shoulder to shoulder on that, on that rail. Like they'll get their lines crossed. Yeah. The boat's moving, you know, the water's moving.And so you can see that would be reasonable. And the neighbor guy that took him, he said, no, I think there'll be okay. And anyway, later the captain said, I've never seen three men stand shoulder to shoulder and not screw up. He said, but that's just, they stood shoulder to shoulder. Do we know how they learn, you know, so they're great fishermen.So I think there's some mixture of like, there's a bunch of things you want to throw your kids at that allow for that kind of like just organic learning and lots and lots of time, but you know, music lessons there, most kids aren't going to. They're not going to persevere, you know. Our kids wouldn'tMalcolm Collins: do music lessons, no.Simone Collins: No, no, no, no. Who knows? I think for developing inhibitory control, that's amazing. Like, one of the things that I've read that really stuck with me [00:49:00] is that all humans now, in like sort of developed societies, have lost the ability to sit with discomfort. And that a lot of building resilience and maturity is about learning how to be uncomfortable and not to immediately freak out and think something needs to be fixed if you are not happy and serene.And I think that things like music lessons, when it's just like, this is actually really frustrating and kind of boring and I'm not enjoying myself is like that is building that muscle for you. Yeah. So I like that, especially in the absence of a really strict religious environment where you're like fasting and get all these things out and like, you know, spending like three hours at mass every day, like things like that, because that also could do it, but it could do it.Yeah. MostCatherine Pakaluk: people don't.Malcolm Collins: So, question. Do you, where do you see the most, because you've mentioned a number of guys cooking, where do you see the most gender nonconformity in large parent families in terms of the roles that are taken on?Catherine Pakaluk: That's a good question. Probably a lot of like shuttling kids around.Like if [00:50:00] you've got a drive to, yeah, I think, cause I think when I did that, see, I think, well, I think there's this idea of like the soccer moms, right? I mean, that was like, it was like not a dad thing. It was a mom thing. But I think that with the larger families, dad, but because of the number of trips, dads have to get involved with that.I think. That's, that's it's softly at least a gender nonconforming thing. I think cooking is Cyber truck dads are the new stalker moms. Oh no, funny.Simone Collins: That's it. It now makes sense. What dads? Cyber truck dads. Cyber truck? Yeah. Yeah.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah.Simone Collins: Yeah.Catherine Pakaluk: So I think that cooking, I think maybe tutoring or, or kind of helping, helping kids.I mean, I did see, I don't think we've talked about this yet explicitly. I think there's some, there were a couple of you know, sort of the interaction with these kind of alternative forms of schooling. Because a lot of the dads are kind of getting involved with, with, with tutoring or helping the kids with, with schooling.There were a couple of couples who kind of hit that place where they had kids in private schools and then realized like, we're either going to have another kid or we're going to keep schooling and we want another kid. [00:51:00] And then you hear like, well, that's when we turned into homeschoolers. And so, so that means dad's involved with a lot of stuff during the daytime.Maybe. Come in working, working from home or kind of juggling in and out. So those are all kind of slightly, you know, they're not, he's not wearing a dress, but they're also like slightly gender nonconforming. Yeah. Bedtime, bath time. I mean, I was just going to say that's a big one. Yeah, there you go. I think.Yeah, I think because there's this idea like mom's pretty pretty like tapped out by the end of the day, but when mom'sMalcolm Collins: pregnant again, she's got to go to sleep early. Yeah, ICatherine Pakaluk: know. Leaning over a bathtub with that belly is a terrible thing.Malcolm Collins: Not ideal. You don't trust me. Yeah, actuallySimone Collins: I do the baths because a bath with Malcolm is not to my standards.Yeah, I see that'sCatherine Pakaluk: like middle of the night parenting is not to my standards of my husband. Yeah. He'd be like, he'd be like, I solved the problem. I just let the kid cry to sleep and you're [00:52:00] like, Oh yeah, you didn't solve the problem. You just turned the kid into like an anxious wreck for the rest of her life.Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. No, I think that's the interesting thing too, about how division of labor plays out. It's, it's both what you're inclined to do and what you like to do, but also like where you can't tolerate your partner's standards. And then that's right. And you take it on. Exactly.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah, exactly.Simone Collins: Which makes sense.Like to your point, like you're too gentle parenting around some things like piano lessons where the kids get frustrated. No, I would fold immediately.Catherine Pakaluk: No, I would fold. I'm like, that's it. I can't. The kid is criminal. We're not.Malcolm Collins: I mean, we get into trouble for barely beating our children. Barely. Barely. But I don't know.It's interesting. I've talked to my wife. It's very interesting how we both intuitively have such similar beliefs. around, you know, punishment and the way I always get so happy when I see that she actually punishes a kid. And I know that everyone else is going to tell you to keep it likeSimone Collins: for context.The last time he was berated by another parent in public, it was merely because he removed one of our children from an arcade because [00:53:00] that children, that child had stolen a toy from another girl who then started crying like horror, like what it's Breaking the cycle of trauma and like all these things and like Malcolm didn't hit the kid.Malcolm didn't know. Malcolm just was like, we have to go home now. I only didn't hit the kid cause I was afraid of being yelled atMalcolm Collins: too.Catherine Pakaluk: Well, you're self regulating a little bit there.Malcolm Collins: I don't want my kid to grow up to be a hippie. Yeah.Catherine Pakaluk: That's so funny. Yeah. Well, but these are soSimone Collins: go ahead. Sorry.Catherine Pakaluk: Well, these are all things that like really grow out of experience. I mean, the first time you think like, maybe, maybe you have to smack your kid because they're reaching for something dangerous, you know, and you kind of realize like, it actually doesn't ruin anything.It doesn't, your kid doesn't like love you any less. And, and then, you know, actually like over time, it, it creates a sort of a cycle of trust and exchange where the kid knows they're safe. And I mean, that's all good. And that's kind of like how it's meant to be. But these are definitely ways that [00:54:00] parents make or I don't know if it's, it's not that they.mean to do it this way, but it ends up making parenting so much harder. Right? Like if your kids are well disciplined, well raised from when they're young, like they're not terrible in their teenage years.Simone Collins: This is true. This is terrible. How old is your oldest? Our oldest is four. So we're still pretty young.You're notCatherine Pakaluk: at the payoff stage yet.Simone Collins: But also like, I don't know if the payoff stage is ever going to come. Cause even though like Our kids are broadly honorable. They're also, like, we know genetically, like, from just the, the other family members that have gone through adolescence and adulthood, that the rebelliousness will not stop no matter what we do.So we can more just be like, This is the price, like the new phrasing in our language is like, this is the price of this activity, like everything is a tax, you know, you can speed, you might get a speeding ticket, but it may be worth it, even if you have to pay that, like, whatever fine, because you need to get there, and we're like, yeah, maybe you're going to do this, this will be the price if you do it, cross the line, pay the [00:55:00] price but like, that's too funny.That's all we can do now. We can just try to be like the real world. We can't develop some kind of like honor or morality. You have toMalcolm Collins: learn, when you have kids, there's, there's this category of kids. I don't know if other kids are like our kids, but there's this category of kids where somebody is like, how, how much do you like punish your kids?Like, how hard do you hit your kids? And I'm like, hard enough so that they don't laugh.Catherine Pakaluk: Because it's not hard enough.Malcolm Collins: It's just hilarious. And they're having fun. Yeah, they don't think it's a game. Like Jordan Peterson being like, I just sit that child down at the end of the table and I just wait him out.And I'm like, wow. Your kids are really different from mine.Catherine Pakaluk: Yeah, that's a lot of time too, by the way. I'm like, I got stuff to do, you know. Yeah, I donot know.Definitely in our in our parenting that's been different for different kids, right? Like each kid is pretty different. We've had some kids, you just look at them funny.They're crying. Oh my gosh. All you need to do, right. It's just like, no, you know, and you, you know, wrinkle your, and they're like, why are you yelling at me? [00:56:00] You're like, nobody was yelling, but they just are so sensitive. That's how it feels to them. And then our daughter was likeMalcolm Collins: that when she was younger, but she grew out of that phase.Yeah. Now she, she just,Simone Collins: the important thing for her is that she makes eye contact with you while breaking the rule. Smiling. She just like loves to see your devastated face. Oh, the youngster. Okay. That's your baby. It's our number three.Malcolm Collins: Intentionally break rules ever. Like Octavian almost never breaks rules.Yeah. That's all. Okay. Punish the other kids if he sees them breaking a rule. But I think that's a verySimone Collins: common first child thing.Catherine Pakaluk: That is a very common first child thing. It doesn't mean that they don't have some other interesting things going on, but they're kind of like, they figured out the system.They're like, those are the rules, right? But there's something else. Like I was like, the kids later, it'd be like, you didn't, you never knew what Joe was doing behind your back.Simone Collins: That's no, I mean, like, that's the thing that at least Octavian has revealed to us as the eldest is that he likes the rules because then he believes that he has the right to impose them.And when [00:57:00] we were trying to like adjudicate things between them and he was like, don't. Talk to the little ones like they were in his domain,Catherine Pakaluk: heSimone Collins: rules them and I think maybe that's a goodCatherine Pakaluk: and actually that's a great point. We haven't touched on, which is like the community of the children, right? Like how there's this cool thing that when you have a bunch of kids, like they actually.Take on their own community. There's like the the parents and then there's the kids and they kind of like practice politics they practice like all kinds of like they make societies and they have their own rules and you know, Like pecking orders and it it's got to give them something that they this useful stuff that they take into societySimone Collins: Absolutely.Yeah, I'm gonna think it's like really brilliant people But like I love that I'm reading his his one of his books again, David Sedaris. Like I love his writing. Oh, yeah Great writer how much of his writing is about Growing up in a family of six kids and it's about the politics of them when they were young and the things that they got up to and you realize just how much kids really raise each other and I love that because Malcolm and I are very flawed [00:58:00] people and we don't necessarily believe that we have everything right for yourself.I'm a very flawed person. My husbandCatherine Pakaluk: is perfect and beautiful. Malcolm is perfect and a hero and a saint.Simone Collins: But I love that like, With every additional kid we have, that is one more moderating factor, where if we're wrong, maybe they'll be right. And they sort of make everything a little more reasonable, butCatherine Pakaluk: Yes, and if you ask kids later, it's really interesting, because I don't think as parents we ever really get our feel for it.They often have a completely different Story about what it was like, you know, to me, we imagine it's this and they have this completely different story and that's, I don't, I don't think we can ever bridge that, but it's, it's, it's a great point you're making that that our children can moderate kind of the experience of life for our other children.Simone Collins: Yeah. Huge benefit. Oh my gosh. I just, I want to thank you again for writing Hannah's Children for doing that research.Catherine Pakaluk: I doSimone Collins: think that this is like, again, looking at how to move forward because we can't go back.You have to look at these populations. What do educated [00:59:00] people who have a lot of kids, Yeah. What do they do? What do they say? What do they think? And to your point about, you know, young people being exposed to babies, I think to a great extent adults being exposed to high fertility families, even just through your book is, it has a very birth rate increasing property because it definitely did that to me.And I'm not the only mother who's read your book and been like, I'm in for more. Because you're just like feeling like you get to know these families and you did great interviews with them. Thank you. It just really. Yeah. And ICatherine Pakaluk: think, youSimone Collins: know, most people when they have a lot of kids, it's like, it's just people act like you're crazy and then you're like, well, I must be crazy.I can't do this. And this makes it seem doable. So everyone, if you haven't actually read this book yet, you've got to read this book. If you have a girlfriend who you want to maybe have considering like having more kids, like her wife, like maybe give it to her as a gift. Along with other really nice things as well, of course, maybe like, you know, some help around the house, cooking, driving somewhere.Yeah. [01:00:00] Thank you so much for coming on this podcast. You're so welcome. And we'll see you at NatCon. We'll see you in Austin in like a month.Catherine Pakaluk: This is the countdown. I know, it's great.Simone Collins: Alright. Okay. One month from today. Good. Alright, well from today. Thank you very much.Catherine Pakaluk: You're so welcome. That's fantastic.Alright, I'mSimone Collins: gonna end the recording here. That was fantastic. Really like keeping the house at 55. Okay. We're paying like 600 for electricity. SoCatherine Pakaluk: this is how it goes. But you know,Simone Collins: I think a lot of it like comes down to your, you point out in Hannah's children. Yeah. Again, and again, how families just sort of choose to prioritize their kids too for these other things.And ICatherine Pakaluk: think there's something connect, there's a connection between thrift and having a lot of kids. I don't think I've got it like mathematically worked out, but it seems to be true.Simone Collins: Yeah. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com

In this episode, delve into the controversial transformation of Yale's infamous secret society, Skull and Bones. The discussion explores how the organization, historically known for its exclusive white male membership, has altered its selection processes to prioritize diversity, equity, and inclusion. The conversation covers pivotal moments and changes within the society, raising questions about hypocrisy, elitism, and the true motives behind these shifts. It also touches on broader implications for elite networks and how they reconcile with modern political ideologies, highlighting the complexities and contradictions within these evolving traditions. Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be talking about the secret society skull and bones. And before anyone thinks that this title was clickbait and that maybe this secret society, one of the most famous secret societies in the world didn't actually go woke.I'll start with a quick excerpt for what I'm going to be reading in 2020. Skull and Bones had its first entirely non white class today, the idea of skull and bones selecting someone whose dad was a Republican president seems inconceivable.The so called tap lines, the tradition guaranteeing the football captain and the student body president would end up in bones, are all gone. And few descendants of the alumni members get in. Instead, the secret societies affirmatively select students ,the bones class of 2021 had quote unquote all kinds of people, but the one thing they didn't have was a single member who was a conservative. Okay, I get an [00:01:00] idea of just how there's been aSimone Collins: takeover and that's a, that's a little Al canes recalls being tappedMalcolm Collins: by a senior who wanted to keep the Latino line going.So this was a person who was tapped by another Latino with the intention that they would go and tap a Latino themselves to keep at least this Latino line going with it. Okay. All right. He decided to focus on a different diversity metric. I chose three trans people. Oh no, oh no. That was my specific goal.Simone Collins: Oh, it's yeah, wow. No white people, three trans people. It reminds me of those cartoons of like, a little fish eats a another tinier fish, and then a bigger fish eats that one, and a bigger fish eats that one until, yeah. IMalcolm Collins: wanted to go into this because I think a lot of people, when they look at these societies, there's a few things that we can take away from this.One is we're going to learn sort of how they took over these organizations and how this happens to, we're going to see these strange parallel [00:02:00] between the, if you look at the history of skull and bones, you know, they were a. Supremacist and an ethno supremacist organization at times. Well, they still are.It's fine. Nothing has changed. Literally, the racists are still the one in charge. Yeah. They are still deeply concerned with and talk about the skin color background. Well, thank goodness. Tradition isn't dead. Of everyone that's being admitted to the organization. This is great. To me highlights the ethno elitism of the leftist oligarchical class at this point.It shows how these people get into positions of corporate power to continue to carry out their dastardly needs. And it shows I, I think as well when people think to these old pockets. Of secret societies, and you know, you famously used to be managing director of a secret society that was founded by Peter Thiel and Orrin Hoffman.We go to stuff like Hereticon, that's one I can talk about. We also go to a bunch of things I can't talk about, like I mentioned before, [00:03:00] because it was found out by a secret undercover reporter that I've been to the Bohemian Grove. But I can't say anything more than that. I can only do quotes from other people.Same thing with my knowledge of Skull and Bones. I need to, I can talk around it. I didn't go to Yale, so I'm, you know, not directly connected. But I, I might be able to add some elaboration as I'm reading through this, but again, I have to be very careful about what I say, but I have a lot of insight into these things.One of my favorite claims to fame personally is that the book, The Bloodlines of the Illuminati which is like the major Illuminati book, the CII hosted on their website for whatever reason. Says that my dad, like calling him out by name and the company he runs is one of the supposed leaders of the Illuminati.So I'm the oldest male child, so I wasn't born yet when this book was written. So now I guess I'm one of the leaders of the Illuminati too. But what's humorous is in terms of the secret societies that actually impact things, you and I actually are like significant players. And I think what people don't.realize is that the secret societies and parties that impact things are not the ones that you and conspiracy [00:04:00] theorists are afraid of. And most of them are on your side. I. e., if what they were saying at these events was something that you could just say out in the open then it would be what aligned with the urban monocultures goal for our society.It would align with what like the leftist oligarchs want for our society. The reason they're meeting secretly is because they are in opposition to that. Now, I'm sure that there is likely some mirror societies to ours that are the actual like PDA file stuff. I mean, we know that like Epstein's Island existed and everything like that.Yeah. So, like, clearly there was an elite network of leftists of PDA files and they likely didn't disappear just because we got rid of the school teacher that hosted the stuff. So, yeah, that, that likely exists. But I don't know if those, those organizations have the power that they used to have.And we'll see likely why they lost a lot of their power. It's just because of governing inefficiency when you devolve into this DEI nonsense.Simone Collins: ButMalcolm Collins: any thoughts before I dive into this? [00:05:00]Simone Collins: I really want to hear more. I want to hear how this happened.Malcolm Collins: All right, skull and bones equity and inclusion This was a piece in the atlantic a couple years back one evening in 2019 in a windowless building known as the tomb in the center of yale's campus The members of skull and bones snapped there They were having granted membership to the most elite secret society at one of the most elite universities in the world Part of a rare group that for generations included individuals from the most powerful families on the planet the vanderbilts the rockefellers And Buckley's have all been members of Skull and Bones.Three bonesmen would go on to become President of the United States. Their traditions, including oaths of secrecy upon admission and antics, stealing a gravestone of Yale's founders and the rumors about them that the Bones tomb contains a human skull are legendary and an intense source of campus gossip.Just, you know, I've cut a lot out of this story, so I'm just reading the juiciest bits.Simone Collins: Good.Malcolm Collins: That assumes that most of our audience is going to Basically know who the skull and bones are a lot of that expository stuff. I took out But they're in the tomb [00:06:00] surrounded by oil portraits of former bones men all white all chosen by the society's alumni board The current members felt overcome not by the achievements of those that had come before them or by the possibilities that lay ahead But instead by the organization's long history So the students did what they felt had to be done they pulled the portraits down and replaced them with homemade signs Criticizing the Secret Society's records of keeping people of color out of its rank.Ugh! Quote, Portraits is a relatively straightforward and easy ask. End quote. One member who participated in the redecoration told me, Quote, The way a place looks can have a large impact on somebody's psyche. End quote. This is somebody in the Skull and Bones! My psyche was terrorized by the pictures on the wall of the people who built the society!Simone Collins: Oh my goodness.Malcolm Collins: This was not the only act of Skull and Bones Rebellion in 2019. During an all expense paid trip [00:07:00] to meet with George W. Bush in Texas that year, one of the members confronted the ex president, who wrote in his 1999 autobiography, I joined Skull and Bones, a secret society. So secret, I can't say anything anymore, and criticized him for leading America into wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to several people familiar with the trip.More recently, young graduates of Brezeliz, another of the Ancient Eight, these are other secret societies on Yale Yale's most elite secret societies. Pressed to change the name of the society's nonprofit legal entity from the Colony Foundation on the grounds that it evoked slavery and colonialism.Students in LOEA society named for LOE Yale also tried to re christen the organization over the name Stakes. Ties to the Slave Trade. When the Bones Clan of 2019 took down the portraits, some of their predecessors were aghast at the bad . Manners a former member. Of the bones alumni board who graduated from Yale in the 1960s told me given that the society's former members were overwhelmingly white [00:08:00] He argued it didn't make sense to criticize skull and bones for accurately portraying its own legacy Their historical protest was silly, end quote.He said, Still, the Bones board tried to appease students by putting up photographs of non white alumni alongside the portraits. This year, the former board told me the board will unveil the Seeker Society's fourth portrait of a black alumnus. Similarly, Bresoliz agreed to rename the Colony Foundation.Eloi, However, is keeping its name picture of skull and bones or any of the anyway. Yeah. Continue. Would you, what'd you want to say? Like,Simone Collins: I just start at this point, you have to wonder why people want to join. If they hate it so much, why do you want to join it? I'm very, youMalcolm Collins: can see it later. It's because they don't actually hate what it represents.They don't actually hate the exclusion and the special privileges. They're like, Oh, well I hated it before I got in, but now I can use it to get a good job.You know, fundamentally, they'reSimone Collins: [00:09:00] still taking down the paintings. They're still criticizing the alumni. Like they're, they're undoing those benefits.What's the point?Malcolm Collins: Oh, no. These individuals still get those benefits. These individuals, you'll see, you'll see they still get the old people. Haven't learned their lesson about don't let these types of people into your organizations. They were not let in because of their moral character. They were not let in because of their.You know, integrity or work ethic or likelihood to be successful in the future. They were let in because they're vile, frankly, because they identified with the cult that took over and destroyed your organization's history. And I think that accepting this and trying to find a way forwards from this place of acceptance is where these people can begin to think about fixing things.And, yeah, it's it's just horrifying. But I think it shows how quickly and how totally many of these organizations have just been completely destroyed [00:10:00] from any historical route that they had. And yet this destruction is based in racist and racial elitism. Picture a member of skull and bones or any of the other ancient eight societies.And you'll probably conjure a preppy white guy who summers in the Cape. In fact, in recent years, the demographics of Yale's most elite organizations have been utterly transformed in 2020 skull and bones. had an entirely non white class. Every year, the society admits around 15 rising seniors. Selections must be unanimous and members have final say.This was the key thing that allowed for the destruction of the organization.Simone Collins: BecauseMalcolm Collins: the admission had to be unanimous. So you have one woke person, you get one diseased member in your organization. That's it. All of a sudden, they scan for everyone.Simone Collins: And then it's just a war of attrition until everyone's like, Yeah, fine.Well, we'll select your person. Fine.Malcolm Collins: And then it's all Black, extremely woke people. Yeah. They, as I said, they didn't invite a single person from a conservative ideological background. These are not organizations that are interested in. Continuity with the past outside of racial [00:11:00] elitism.Interesting. But this racial elitism is exemplified in woke culture in a way that Oh, 100%.Simone Collins: That's the top place where it's alive now. And you can see that in the way that suddenly the composition of, of skull and bones changed.Malcolm Collins: Many of the societies now have only one or two students each year who aren't from historically marginalized groups.So it's very hard to get in now, if you're white today, the idea. So you one to two white people every year.Simone Collins: That'sMalcolm Collins: it. Today, the idea of skull and bones selecting someone whose dad was a Republican president seems inconceivable. The so called tap lines, the tradition guaranteeing the football captain, the student body rep, the skull and bones are long gone.Few descendants of alumni get in. Instead, the secret societies affirmatively select for students who are their first in family to attend college, who are from a low income background or who are part of a minority group. This has created something of a diversity arms race. Quote, people are intentionally or not thinking does this cohort have too many white people in quote said Alkanes a member of [00:12:00] Brazilian class of 2020.It's definitely an undercurrent. He said, I graduated from Yale last spring and I didn't belong to a secret society when it came time for members in my year to select the next class, a friend of an ancient eight society worried that the person she wanted to tap wouldn't get in. He was a person of color, but came from a wealthy family and was not the first in his family to attend college.She was the right to worry. The society rejected. Well, that's how bad this is.A history of progressive activism is an asset among secret society hopefuls. Oh, so you need to be a progressive activist as well. One of the leaders of Yale's Democratic Socialist Chapter, socialists Mind. You joined Scroll and Key, one of the oldest secret societies last year. Okay. The Bones class of 2021 had quote people from all kinds of backgrounds.In quote, one member of the class told me, but no conservatives unless you count centrist as [00:13:00] conservatives, which some members do.Simone Collins: Most members probably do.Malcolm Collins: Like Yale student body overall members of the secret societies mostly range from far left to left of center in short Yale secret societies are now filled with students who as a matter of political conviction consider wealth privilege Indefensible, but who as members of Yale's most elite clubs enjoy enormous advantages skull and bones pair students with alumni mentors in the field They hope to enter.It has an endowment of 17 million. Bones members spend a week in late summer getting to know one another at the group's private island on St. Lawrence River. Dinners at ancient eight societies are prepared by private chefs. They used a 17 million endowment and all of these privileges and all of these mentorships to progress and further this cult that they're a part of.Simone Collins: Wow.Malcolm Collins: And this racist fundamental cult. And I think That if I was a member of the alumni of this group, I would focus on attempting to create a [00:14:00] parallel society at the university that focused on individual integrity and not this racist nonsense or find other ways to deal with this. Like, just let the organization drain the 17 million dollar fund because they will stop doing the mentorship, start doing the mentorships for people who deserve it and are actually being ethnically discriminating against which.These days as not these people as we can see from their acceptance into these organizationsSimone Collins: YeahMalcolm Collins: And, and that is what we're seeing, like at the dinner parties we host in New York, the dinner parties we host in D. C. We always try to have young, rising stars at these events when we can, and we connect these individuals with movers and shakers, and it's done a lot to accelerate their careers.And I think that this is something that it's upon us and all, you know, sane thinking individuals with ties to power to continue to do. It's on you to fund and invest in the things that can't get [00:15:00] investment in other ways to do donations to those types of things instead of, you know, what keeps you on the board of whatever that makes you look good.In 2021, Caleb Dunson, then a Yale sophomore published an op ed in the school newspaper. Titled Abolish Yale. Oh, fantastic. In the essay, he described his discomfort attending an opulent holiday feast for students while homeless people suffered in the cold nearby. Remember, they have private chefs, private islands.The school operates, quote, under the assumption that only a small group of remarkable people can push humanity forwards, end quote. Well, I mean, that's true wrote Dunton. And it's likely not you or the people you're associated with, to be frank who is black. Quote, it started off excluding women and people of color from its student body and now parades them around for diversity photos and justice brownie points, end quote. Even if the university made marginal changes, which Johnson argued it had been reluctant to do, its nature would remain the same, quote, since we can't change Yale, we have to tear it down, end quote, he wrote.So they're trying to destroy [00:16:00] these traditions, these organizations, and everything they stood for while using them to push their cult like message. Today, Dunson is a member of one of the ancient eight societies. That's the type of person that these organizations are admitting. He knows how that looks.When I asked him about the apparent contradiction, he said he decided to join in order to make new friends and be part of a community, but acknowledged that he was attracted to the status that being in a society confers. Quote, once you get a tap for a society, it's funny how quickly you get invested in the preservation of that society.End quote. He told me, ultimately, he said, given his political views, are at odds with attending Yale in the first place, quote, there's already a bit of cognitive dissonance, end quote. So joining a secret society isn't that big a leap. Oh, what aSimone Collins: hypocrite. This is so annoying. If you don't believe in Yale, don't apply to Yale.Like, huh. I hate this. ThisMalcolm Collins: is, oh, it's painful.This is why I love when you talk to one of these lefties who want like communism or more socialism, and you're like, well, every [00:17:00] time that's been done in the past, the people, as soon as they got power to manage the system, ended up abusing it, taking all the money for themselves, becoming elitist, creating a strict class system with an oligarchy that was it.Malcolm Collins: Even less predictable than it was under capitalism and they're like, oh no, no, no, no, no the next generation of elite communists They're not like that They would give up the power as soon as it was handed to them and yet we see it even in the case of these kids at like Yale Being given these giant endowments and private islands and stuff like that that we'll learn about in just a second They don't give it up.They don't give any of it up. they keep the system working for them even individuals like Bernie Sanders, for example, number one, and has been for like 10 years receiver of a pharma donations among senators, , and, and he also was like, oh, well, those are all small donations.Those are all small donations. Really, Bernie, buddy. , that's why you fought so hard against RFKgetting [00:18:00] appointed that makes no sense that you, it, when you're looking at an industry, That has a vested interest in greasing the hands of senators that you could beat every other senator in terms of donations by chance from small donations from employees multiple years in a row for a decadeand that you would ardently campaign for their interests. No, the point is, is that these individuals, whether it's Bernie Sanders or these DEI guys and skull and bones, , the moment they get power, all of their values that they have been campaigning for disappear.Are these people not the, this is the majority of the people at Yale now. Yale now on somebody's resume just stamps them as this kind of grifter. I mean, you really gotta be like, and when did you graduate? You know, I went to Stanford back when Stanford was still like a respectable institution.A lot of people went to Yale in the past. I know some friends who went to Princeton who are, I think doing a lawsuit saying that the organization no longer has any it's like a negative. On their [00:19:00] resume at this point. No,Simone Collins: the idea was yeah to to file a lawsuit because their management of the school had degradated the value of The degree that they'd spent so much money to getMalcolm Collins: Yeah, which is absolutely true These organizations are being horrific stewards because they have been co opted by the cult and we'll see if the vibeship pushes them back We'll see if the supreme court lawsuit making it illegal to discriminate against someone based on race Surprise surprise that we had to do that in the united states States.And these were the people fighting against that Supreme Court decision screeching about it. But they're also the elitists who control everything. The Republican Party of today is fundamentally an anti elitist party. It is a party of the people because this is elitism. You can't be pro this stuff and anti elitism.Yeah. The DEI is elitism. It's like a fundamentally elitist idea. Yeah. Yes. The most common argument current and recent members give [00:20:00] for preserving the societies is that by opening them up to groups that had previously been excluding, they can help diversify the elite. Ally Canals recalls being tapped by a senior who wanted to quote, keep the Latino line going.Once inside, Canals focused on a different diversity metric. I chose trans people, Canals told me. That was my specific goal. So three trans people, no Latinas. Today's students believe that their values are better than those of the secret society members who came before them, and thus they will use their positions in more socially beneficial ways, even if they're not yet sure exactly how.The member of the 2021 bones class had been uneasy about joining, but was convinced by a student from the year above quote. Yes, there is that baggage that we do have to reckon with in quote. The older student told her, but the fact that you are reckoning with it.The other people in your class are reckoning with it. That's a good sign. Her class included many students from low income families. And they often talked about how they would leverage their [00:21:00] network to help their communities. One recent Bones member used an alumni gathering to fundraise for a non profit she ran.Mm hmm. Nearly all of the current, and basically to get money for herself. Yeah. Nearly all of the current and recent members I spoke with said that it would be better if secret societies didn't exist at all. But, given that they do exist, they decided they might as well join to make it better. The most full throat.critiqued as societies tends to come for people who didn't get in. Elizabeth thou. Oh, she was Asian. She never had a shot. Who graduated from Yale in 2023 felt confident in her odds to be tapped by St. Elmo's one of the ancient eight, but she spent tap day crying because she wasn't chosen. Of course she's Asian.Doesn't she know she's, she's an underclass by the standards of DEI and comparing her qualifications against those of her friends who were, Invited in. In Yale Daily News op ed, she argued that secret societies should be torn down rather than open up. By including more students from marginalized backgrounds, [00:22:00] she wrote, the society system merely diversifies the ranks of the worthy without transforming the underlying structures that deem others worthy.In quote, yes, it's exactly the same as it always was in that respect. And yet she admitted, quote, I know in my bones that if I had gotten tapped by Selma's, I would have taken it and likely wouldn't have developed a critical mode of participation. In quote, they're all, they're all such Democrats.Quote, everyone talked a really big game. In quote, one member of the LA class of 2019 told me, quote, in the first months of my time in the society, there were people like, we got to burn this place down. We need to mobilize the endowment to redistribute the wealth back to New Haven. And then inevitably we all just ended up doing what had been done in year.It's previous, which is doing the bios, hanging out with each other and a few volunteer things, but it wasn't anything radical in quote, as the 1960s bones alumnus, former member told me, quote, if you want things to stay the [00:23:00] same, everything has to change in quote, in his view, the secret societies are thriving.This is an old alumni members. And alumni meet for the annual bone celebration in New York. The old guard gives a hearty applause to the new members and the kids are thinking there's somebody in this room who's going to help me get a job.And that's what the old board member was saying, the quotes there. So they, and this is fundamentally what a lot of these people who were conservatives of the last generation and were taken in by the oligarch and are like the never Trumpers and everything like that, they don't understand how much this new generation.One does not care about integrity. They do not care about actually making the world a better place that they care about this redistribution cult if you gave skull and bones Endowment to for example, just redistributed it to yale. It would be gone Like that. It's basically dumping it in the ocean. In terms of the impact it would have as we've seen from things like the UBI studies.It might even make the [00:24:00] situation worse. These individuals do not care about any evidence backed direction to make the world better.Simone Collins: Do you think these people are going to get jobs from the network though? Because if I were one of the senior How do the woke people getMalcolm Collins: to the top of BlackRock and s**t like that, Simone?This person was one of the heads who said, Oh, I think this is all a good thing in the 1960s. A lot of elitist society, as you and I have seen, Like, if you talk about like the, the, The reason why we do secret meetings is because we're like Part of the underground, right? The overground, if you go to like the Met Gala or something like that everyone there agrees with this ideology without fully realizing that it plans to have them erased.I'm not evenSimone Collins: concerned about that. I mean, I, I guess, wait, maybe this makes sense because a lot of like this particular network, which I guess used to be kind of an old boys network hired. Almost like [00:25:00] hereditary dynasties into, we'll just say show positions that didn't actually need to perform necessarily.Yeah. Like, I think you saw this a lot with sort of the old garden Dallas where. Like kids would expect to go into family businesses, but then like not actually do anything, you know They just like they'd get a big salary and just be there and maybe that's what these networks were meant for was fulfilling these these almost dynastic positions that were No, a lot of these positions don't workMalcolm Collins: that way anymore.Simone Collins: That's, that's the point though, is when we moved to Dallas, you realized that all of your friends who had grown up in that aristocracy weren't getting the jobs they expected. Yeah, they thoughtMalcolm Collins: they were going to get handed jobs, but now like boards exist and stuff like that. But these boards have been taken over by these types of people.Simone Collins: This isMalcolm Collins: fundamentally a religious cult that is taking over things. And it functions like a cult, like a self reinforcing mechanism. I see.Simone Collins: Yeah. So we basically went from old boys, dynastic networks, putting useless people into useless possessions to woke [00:26:00] boards, putting people not based on merit into yes, that we're transforming theMalcolm Collins: company's goals, the goals of these organizations.Now it's to promote the D E I mindset, this, this cult mindset. And they've said that very clearly. I see my role at this organization as promoting this mindset. Yeah. In terms of what we accept, in terms of how we leverage our money, in terms of what we do when we get into other companies. They believe that this is like a moral north star that they build every action that they take around.Simone Collins: Okay, that makes sense.Malcolm Collins: And it is Well, I mean, how do these people get in places like BlackRock and stuff like that? You think that these people are smart? Like they're not particularly intelligent. Like we've run into them whether it was you know Given that I went to institutions like Stanford for my MBA and stuff like that, and St.Andrews for my undergrad where you had this, the people, you know, and so I've seen the people who do the DEI pathway and they're not your [00:27:00] great performers they're, they, they are You know, they, they often got there through a DEI pathway as well. And it's, it's obvious. Well, I thinkSimone Collins: that's the problem is they could be great performers, but the way that they rose wasn't from learning how to be great performers, it was from learning how to manipulate DEI oriented networks.So they, they weren't given the opportunity nor were they given the incentive to build the ability to be, to, to yield a return on investment. And that's a really, really sad thing is that these. actually typically are very smart people because it takes a good amount of savvy cunning and emotional intelligence to To get that far and theseMalcolm Collins: people, yeah,Simone Collins: and yet they're then going forward, they only use the cunning and savvy and Machiavellian manipulation skills rather than complex problem solving and project management and data analysis and all the things they should be using if creating good outcomes for whatever organization they've chosen to join.So it's a shame [00:28:00] and I just want to make it clear that we don't think that these people are inherently. Less than. We think that they have been incentivized to play a game that makes them useless.Malcolm Collins: If somebody is the agent of a dangerous cult that is dangerous, not just in its racial discrimination and its implementation of a racial hierarchy it's, it's dangerous in a lot of the ideas it pedals, you know, when you begin to push this stuff at like the FAA, where we talked about where people were being hired to try to get more.Black people on board, they post the idea of, Oh, well, we need to have a test that like the wrong answer is science was my favorite subject at school, or I take answers well, and it becomes like a racist person stereotype of black culture because these people have a really, really harmful beliefs boast about Because I think a lot of them know that they're not really from these cultures.A lot of them know that they're not actually from a family that has deep roots within black culture and stuff like that. And that's what you often see by the people who grift on this system. Is they're often not [00:29:00] actually connected to the communities that they claim to represent. And this creates a huge sort of like imposter syndrome.Where they then make up, they're like, Hmm, what? What's black stuff? I guess it's, it's, it's being bad at science and math. So we should make those the questions on the test. Like what, what, like And when you see people, cause we actually have a lot of like really close black friends who like work to and, and have sort of entered like real elite circles to try to better the black community.And I'd say the core difference between the black people who don't go crazy about this s**t and the black people I know who do go crazy about this s**t is it's, did they. Actually come from like a discriminated background. Like one who we know, for example, grew up an orphan and was raised in that environment and grew up in like actual poverty.And he does like really cool stuff was like fixing education systems. Whereas when I think about. You [00:30:00] know, the, the ones I know that have gone the DEI grift route these are individuals who grew up to, like, wealthy parents who, or recent immigrants from, like, royalty in Africa or something, and really have no connection to American black culture, or wanting to improve it outside of how they can utilize it to get money, like this one girl who's like, I used it to raise money for my non profit.Well, let's see how much of that went to her. You know, that's, that's the way the grift goes.Note here when you read things that these organizations like what we work really hard for first generation You know college people who came from whatever background you can tell that they are not Actually from these communities and they've just learned to do the grift really well By where they are focusing their efforts and their buy in to the dei stuff Or they might have come from parts of these communities that have built their entire identity around a DEI government welfare grift, which is something that I've also seen.And a lot of these old people who go [00:31:00] to the like, Met and stuff like this for the yearly gala or whatever, they're frankly too disconnected and bought into like this media lie ecosystem to know how bad the grift has got.What?Simone Collins: I think you're right. It's just depressing. But it also feels, you can't help but feel a little smug about it. I mean, this wasn't. A secret society without some flaws and certainly a lot of elitism and now it's experiencing the end result of all that.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and the, the cool kids club is now like way more dynamic, way more open, like for the, the cool events that we would be invited to like Hereticon, I think it's the best secret society event that's ongoing right now.They do it so well. They, oh my gosh, it's incredible. So, but how do you get an invite to Heretic Con? You have to be out there saying interesting, controversial, new ideas, and be bringing them to the scene and [00:32:00] changing the world. And that's like such a better criteria than these older systems. And I really by the way, if you go to Heretic Con again next year, are you gonna get a tattoo this time?They, they do free tattoos at Heretic Con.Simone Collins: I mean, I still think you should get the gear tattooed on you.Malcolm Collins: I'll get the gear tattooed then.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Where, where, where should I get it?Simone Collins: At your wrist. Wrist?Malcolm Collins: Do youSimone Collins: knowMalcolm Collins: how much thatSimone Collins: hurts? Where it hurts the most. Yeah. That,Malcolm Collins: you are intense. That's where youSimone Collins: do it.That's where you doMalcolm Collins: it. But, you're a typical Puritan,Simone Collins: Malcolm. You gotta show it.Malcolm Collins: I gotta show it? I gotta, oh god, you are, you are insane. But, hey, you know, there's, there's, there's, it's a good souvenir from like a hereticon or something like that. God, my whole life without getting a tattoo, am I gonna get one at 38 or something, I guess?I mean, I'm going to be with you. I don't need to attract any other partners, I guess. Yeah. ISimone Collins: still would love for someone to explain to me why people get tattoos. That would be helpful.Malcolm Collins: The last time we were there, they had a stall where you could genetically alter [00:33:00] frogs to glow in the dark. And so we both did like, yeah, it's aSimone Collins: mega frog embryo.That was, yeah,Malcolm Collins: it was pretty cool. No, it's like, but you're like, what if people do it? Like the cool secret societies, that's the stuff that's happening. And they geneticallySimone Collins: alter frog embryos and genetically altering frog embryos, you know, eat delicious food, talk with fascinating, smart people. The general premise of Skull and Bones, which I hadn't, I haven't really read much about it.I didn't know that so much of it was sort of highlighted around getting a job and networking. That in itself makes it to me pretty gross because I am definitely of the belief that you should get your job based on merit and hustle instead of like, Oh, well, I got accepted, accepted into this club and therefore you will hire me.And I felt the same way about sororities and fraternities, which also often sold it as like, You'll find it easier to get a job. And I just thought that was disgusting. Like who hires someone because they're friends? I mean, that's, that's really an argument against hiring that [00:34:00] person. Because then when you have conflict, or you need to give constructive criticism, it becomes so much harder.It's just a terrible idea. This, the entire premise of this society is fundamentally unsound.Malcolm Collins: Yes, I, well, yeah, I, I like that things are changing and that this system has in a way destroyed itself. It was a system based on nepotism and then there's a cult that found out how to hack nepotism networks.And it is destroying the system and this is why We started an organization deiremediation. org if you need to hire people for one of your orgs to clean out dei you let us know we are a non profit as well. So You can pay us in tax deductible money to come in and fix the, you know, the, the inefficiencies and racism that are affiliated with this, but I not just inefficiencies, mission creep.Well, let's talk about where the, I mean, you, you and I see the real like secret society networks that are important now, right? And I'd say they generally fall into a few [00:35:00] categories. The EA network, while being a giant peerage network, is still very important. The effective altruist network is probably in terms of like a global influence.The number one sort of society that you can access the next. Big one is the counterculture network that we're like sort of organizing members of. Like allSimone Collins: heterodox related things.Malcolm Collins: Heterodox related things. There's a few others that are matter. Like there's that secret society that I think is still sort of old boy, the Catholic one for and you're getting Catholics promoted within the judge network which is really important and conservatives within the judge network, which is really important.But even ones like, you know, like the Coke network and stuff like that. I think a lot of them have become less relevant as, as time has gone on because they're not generating new ideas.Simone Collins: I think there's different types of secret societies. So some are like you could call them resource distribution, secret.And that's what it seems like Skull and Bones was that was what [00:36:00] the Koch Society was that's like, it's it is of people typically wealthy benefactors deciding. Where to throw their crumbs and playing patronage games and sometimes ego games. You could argue maybe that the Bohemian Grove was a little bit like that because it was supposed to be very, very expensive membership for wealthy people balanced out by either subsidized or free membership for artists.And so that, that, I think that, that qualifies as well. And then you have. What I would argue are the power broker secret societies. And I think this is where you get like, you know, Sun Valley and all the sort of more exclusive corporate founded retreats plus the heterodox meetings, arguably like a lot of the EA stuff.It's about, Hey, we want to get these high agency people together because when they talk and when they mix more, they build really cool things and. We, the organizers of the society or conference or retreat series or community like that and want to see more of that and [00:37:00] also personally benefit from it, but there isn't like some, there's no daddy warbucks.There's no patron per se that runs those communities. In fact, when there is some kind of patron that does start to turn those communities into money grabbing places. Like Sam Bankman Freed did with the Effective Altruist community for a while. I think they degrade significantly because you attract entirely the wrong kind of person.In fact, that was when you saw the EA community becoming very corrupt, where people were just Vying for attention and privilege to get funding for a nonprofit that basically just funded their salary and lifestyle for them to do research on AI, which basically just meant like pay me a huge salary and I'm going to dick around on the internet all day.Oh, I'm so good. So I, I would, yeah, I think that's the important distinction here. And clearly Skull and Bones was more for like entitled people who wanted to have their solutions made for them rather than people who [00:38:00] were already building things would always build things and would just Be excited to meet other people who are building things and debate with them and share ideasMalcolm Collins: Yeah, I I think for me the important thing is as this system crumbles because it was never built to be efficient in the first place that For the first wave of defectors or the first few waves of defectors that we've had so far I think it's really important to accept them in um to the to the movement of like the vital society, the ones who are actually taking humanity forwards.But I think for the later defectors, for the people who defect when it becomes like corporate okay to defect these people need to be sort of permanently frozen out. Because they are bad actors who will turn bad again if given the opportunity and means.Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely.Malcolm Collins: And that's why I agree with creating lists and stuff like that, what the Trump administration is doing.And I think that other organizations you know, as we go through and we work on this stuff, I think having lists that organizations can share of anyone who's ever [00:39:00] engaged in this sort of activity is really important because we can't allow this to happen again. And, and if. A movement like this based on elitism and systemic racism ever grows again they need to know that they will be destroying their careers when the movement goes.But I think a lot of these people sort of assume that no backlash was ever possible to the lifestyle that they were Living and, and we can only fight back by making sure that there is actually a punishment so that the next class, the next crop is like, Oh yeah, I see what you're peddling, but I'm not going to be about that.Simone Collins: Even if there's only short term potential, I still think people are going to go for it. Unfortunately.Malcolm Collins: Mm.Simone Collins: Sorry.Malcolm Collins: We saw this is like, BLM grift and everything like that. Hey, they still got those mansions out of it. I mean. That's their family.Simone Collins: Yeah, that made it worth it for them.Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you to decimum.Simone Collins: I love you too.Speaker: Okay, so what did you want to [00:40:00] tell subscribers? Like, I like and subscribe to somebody's channel too, and I got so happy that I like them.Do you think that they'll get happy if they like and subscribe to our channel? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com

In this thought-provoking episode, Simone and Malcolm tackle the contentious and controversial topic of gay conversion therapy. They delve into its history, methods, and the scientific data surrounding its effectiveness (or lack thereof). The discussion spans various types of therapies, from psychotherapeutic to medical and faith-based methods. The hosts confront the ideological biases and misinformation often found in debates about changing sexual orientation, while highlighting the ethical and practical implications of imposing such therapies on individuals. The episode also touches on broader societal issues such as community identity, the cultural significance of sex, and the impact of modern ideological conflicts on age-old practices. Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be asking the age old question is. If somebody is gay, can you turn them straight by electrocuting them?Speaker: Do you think you should turn gay? I don't think it works like that. Okay, well, Hot Topic's next on the list. Could I turn gay working there? You can't just magically turn gay. This isn't Degrassi. Why are you so against turning gay? Because if you think you turned gay, there's some weird Christian guy who thinks he can electrocute you into turning back.Speaker 3: People think that?Malcolm Collins: No, so hold on so actually I feel like for anyone who hasn't seen there's this show in the u. s The unbreakable kimmy schmidt everybody's on netflix, right? And it's about a girl who grows up in this cult with a guy who lied to her about everything and when she enters the world, she has to constantly find things and then be like Oh yeah, I need to check if this was a lie or not.And this happened to me recently around conversion therapy. Okay. Just, you know, I think if you grow up in the broadly like progressive sphere the line [00:01:00] is conversion therapy, gay straight conversion therapy doesn't work. Yeah. And, you know, recently I found myself reflecting on this and I was like, oh yeah, but if it did work, they'd still say it doesn't work.Like they have an ideological reason to need to believe this uh, due to the way that they were framing like gayness as an identity. And, what really hit me is when I asked an AI questions about this, it got really angry at me. I don't know if you noticed, but there's certain issues where I'm like, hey, can you just steel man this other perspective?It could not bring itself. Perplexity could not bring itself to steel man the other perspective.Simone Collins: And this is a really important thing for us to be talking about now specifically because As of our recording now this coming Monday, the Supreme Court is going to take up state bans on conversion therapy for LGBTQ plus children based on a Colorado case.So, this is actively something that is being discussed. Do you haveMalcolm Collins: a religious right to [00:02:00] electrocute your children? That is, I'm, I'm joking by the way. What we're going to go over is all of the different types of conversion therapy. The thing that really got me in the AI Answer is I don't know if you guys have ever asked an AI a question And it gives you parts of the answers that are just obvious and transparent lies.Yeah like it gave me a list of things that it said do nothing to change an individual's, you know Sexual expression and one of those things was castration and I was like brother. I'm not like brother in christ I'm, not saying that we should be castrating gay people, but it obviously changes their sexual expression.Yeah And and Another thing that I just know because I've done a lot of research on like LGBT stuff is it will say, you know, you cannot change an individual's sexual orientation. And yet anyone who's familiar with like trans people just knows that wrong. About 43 percent of trans people report changes in their sexual orientation.When they go through hormone therapy. Yeah, it was only about 13 percent experiencing a complete change, but 13 percent do [00:03:00] experience a complete change. Exactly what gay conversion is supposed to achieve. Now, again I don't think that many conservatives are like that, that doesn't really solve the problem for most conservatives but it does show that there is a potential mechanism of action to achieve this.And in addition to that, you have the case of it would say that like certain therapies didn't work. But then I'd ask, well, are these therapies used in other areas? And he was like, oh yeah, they're also used in like phobias and alcohol addiction. And I was like, do they work there? It turns out they don't mostly so a lot of this stuff that it was actually right But it was much more nuanced in how it said they don't in those instances It was interesting debate, but I will note here that you can be like, but what about all the studies that say?It didn't work One of the things that was a real red flag for me because well there used to be a popularly cited study that said that It didn't That it worked. But the, even, even the academic who wrote it had it retracted because it might cause harm. Oh. And then I was like, [00:04:00] oh. So there were evidence out there and people could have lost their jobs for publishing that, which shows why you're getting such bias in what's being published.There is one study that's out there right now out of like the 36 studies on this that shows Okay. could plausibly work. This one was a two silent study, retrospective self reports of changes in homosexual orientation, a consumer survey of conversion therapy clients. What I will note as we go over all the data and all this stuff here, if you're like, what's the actual answer to this?There does not appear to be a persistent and reliable way. IE the urban monoculture was Kind of right on this to induce a new arousal pattern in an individual. If I am not aroused by women nothing that happens at gay conversion camp is going to make me aroused by women. If I am not aroused by men, nothing that happens at a gay conversion camp will make me aroused by men.Doesn't mean nothing can. You [00:05:00] could, like, try to do a gender reassignment with hormones, but I think if you're a conservative Christian and you have a problem with same sex attraction that is not the pathway that you are interested in taking. You're right. And it doesn't even work all the time. It works like 13 percent of the time and 50 percent of the time.Basically, given that 50%, you know, have new arousal patterns afterwards. Gender reassignment and like hormone therapy is like re rolling your character. In terms of what arouses you. Yeah. Yeah. Which isSimone Collins: actually the, the one we've had, I think, different maybe podcasts about this, where we talk about how if you're dealing with severe depression completely changing your identity by also changing your gender and your hormonal profile could successfully kickstart you out of it.And it's not the, the fact that you had gender dysmorphia per se that changed it. It's the fact that your entire hormonal profile and identity and clothing changed. ChangingMalcolm Collins: the way that you see yourself and relate to other people is one of the easiest ways to change sort of persistent psychological [00:06:00] issues.So, like we're, we're trying to be as, as sort of fair minded on this topic as, as we can be, as we go into the data. However, what is also true and where the left is just lying about this is, is while you can induce a new arousal pattern. There are plenty of ways to suppress an individual's libido and arousal patterns.And we did another video, something like my husband's not gay or, or like, I would be okay if you, I don't remember what it was, something like that. Where we basically say that like, I'm okay with same sex attracted individuals deciding that they want to be in cross sex relationships. I don't think that like, that's something that We as a society need to freak out about or police them on.And I can understand why an individual might want that for me, one of the most powerful things I ever read in regards to that was from an Amish kid on rumspringa, which is, you know, when they leave their family. And go live like in the secular world, for a year Uh when they when they go through like a bit [00:07:00] after puberty basically before they decide to come back in the community And decide to be an amish and he was saying in it he having lived in the secular world now now recognized I am a same sex attracted or gay individual, but I am still going to go back to live in the amish world with The point he was making was even though, like, I understand I can fulfill certain things more easily by continuing to live in the secular world there was just a greater sense of purpose of mental well being of sort of a life that he really wanted in the future.If he went back to the Amish world and he saw the, the, Having to have sex and have a wife who he wasn't attracted to part of that is being Marginally more challenging, but not worth giving up everything else that came was an Amish life And in the video game that we're doing now talking about like weird woke themes because you know You don't say that the the LLM game it's coming along great really [00:08:00] excited takes place in a post apocalyptic world post fertility collapse world and one of the early sort of conflicts is is I tried to do an inversion of the typical thing here, which is a young kid wants to go live with the Mormons, and he is same sex attracted, and he knows that he will have to live a different type of lifestyle, and his mom doesn't want him to go live with the Mormons, being like, but you're same sex attracted like you should stay, live with us, live this lifestyle and I thought it was a, a, a fun inversion of this particular debate that you see so frequently, and interacting with it.You know, for me, I like with all the characters I'm creating, creating interesting interactions and debates that cause the player to look at issues from a different angle.Simone Collins: Right.Malcolm Collins: But okay, so I'm going to go into this. Anything you wanted to say, Simone?Simone Collins: Just to give a little bit of context to why I think you find it often practical that people who are still same sex [00:09:00] attracted get into heterosexual relationships is that it can be, if you, if you care more about having a family, if you care more about, Being able to maintain a certain community.It's just a no brainer. And, and I think the fact that we live in an age where people put sex lives above family and community is pretty crazy that like it is, it is your extracurricular, curricular sex life is a more important than that is.Malcolm Collins: Well,Simone Collins: andMalcolm Collins: think about what is meant by this. I mean, if you talk about something like the Amish or like a conservative Mormon community or conservative, like Catholic community.These community identities mean a lot to the people who are part of them. Yeah. And I think that we, in our society, trivialize them as just, you know, seeing them as the oppressive thing that they can be framed as, instead of the rever I mean You know, for example, if I'm a conservative Catholic and I grew up as a conservative Catholic, even though [00:10:00] I'm same sex attracted, you know, I might believe that, like, you know, the Catholic God exists and everything said in like Catholic Catholic theology is real.And yet we treat it like it's a mistake to make that choice. Or the Amish person is like, well, I mean, you know, I'm choosing between this and. Not necessarily heaven, but the wholesome life I could otherwise live with this community and community support.Simone Collins: Yeah, a little more context beyond that, too.Alyssa Grenfell talks about this, actually. Many people who grow up in these more conservative religious communities, where people, for example, know that they're gay, but still marry. Someone of the opposite sex. They sort of grow up thinking that sex is not going to be pleasurable for them at all.Like Alyssa Grenville talks in a detail about how her OBGYN at BYU when she was about to get married was like, well, you know, sex is painful for many women. And she actually gave her this. Like dilator to use, [00:11:00] like before she had sex for the first time to try to make, like, I think maybe to break her hymen, like to make it less painful.Like it's just not framed. Like they're not given, they're not expecting at any point in their lives, sex to be amazing, which is of course, it's very different from what the that other conservative influencer, the,Malcolm Collins: Wow. It was these two Mormon women. No, no, no. They'reSimone Collins: not Mormon. They're not. Those aren't Mormon.Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, no, they were part of some conservativeSimone Collins: But yeah, oh my gosh, so, while they grew up certainly expecting sex to be amazing, not all conservative religious groups do. Girl defined.Malcolm Collins: GirlSimone Collins: defined. OurMalcolm Collins: episode, how girl defined ruined an entire generation of women, but I actually think that this is really bad No,Simone Collins: no, but my point is, many additional communities, including many subsets of the LDS church, apparently, Basically never expect sex to be amazing.And many just never have a satisfying sex life and never thought that was important. And yet they still end up having tons of kids. So how can it be a surprise to someone of like, Oh, well, I'm not attracted to [00:12:00] this person, but we're going to have sex anyway. Like just, you know, whether it's. Being sexually oriented toward a specific sex or just expecting sex to be pleasurable.Like if you're not even expecting sex to be pleasurable, then it doesn't really matter. I actually thinkMalcolm Collins: it's more culturally healthy. And that's why we did the video on Girl Defined is that Girl Defined maintain the idea of chastity until marriage and then you would get married and then sex would be the most amazing thing because sex is better in marriage.And I'm like, that's not something you should ever be teaching someone is like you sex. It's better because you wait to have it in marriage. It's like, As somebody who's had a lot of sex, that's like objectively not true. Like, Yeah. Sick burn, Malcolm. No, I'm not saying that's it. What I'm saying is as a guy, for example, if you're sleeping with a lot of people, like the, the pleasure that you get from that sex is going to be I, I would suppose easier to access.Just keep digging.Speaker 8: Hey everybody, today we're going to teach you [00:13:00] how to dig yourself a hole.To begin with, you need yourself a pair of very durable work boots. Steel toed, preferably.Malcolm Collins: No, just because it's multiple people, just because it's multiple people. Well, anyway,Simone Collins: I think the important note though, is, is, is that yes. The, the girl defined message that they grew up with was very toxic, but it messed up their head. Cause they get into marriage and then it's not that great.I'm saying it was really toxic. And I'm saying one thing that I love, Alyssa Grenfell, she is a, an ex Mormon YouTuber and TikToker. She wrote a book about leaving the Mormon church where I really. Disagree with a lot of her episodes like I just watched a really long episode. She did on Mormon funerals Where she's like, oh, isn't it horrible that they restrict this and they restrict that like you're not supposed to have a Mormon funeral That lasts more than like the church service shouldn't be more than an hour and I'm like, yes.Thank you They're like, you know just for considering the people there. Yeah, like let's just keep you know, keep it going. Don't get too emotional Like, think on the positive things, you'll be reunited in the afterlife, all this, right? And she's like, can you believe they're not letting people grieve?They're making it too fast. And I'm [00:14:00] like, nope, that's good. They're, they're not letting people Are we, are we making that a technicalMalcolm Collins: puritan thing? Funerals can't last over an hour.Simone Collins: Just no funerals.Malcolm Collins: No,Simone Collins: we should, we should build, we should build death rituals because it's really important to have death. My point though is that Alyssa Grenfell points to the fact that, oh, can you believe that they are teaching young women that sex isn't going to be enjoyable?And can you believe that they restrict funerals in this way? And can you believe they do this and that without realizing this is a Chesterton's fence issue? Like there is a reason why. Those things actually have benefits for the culture at large, even though they appear to cause, in many cases, a lack of hedonic pleasure in the immediate term.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, what you're pointing out here, and I think that this is really valuable, is a lot of people hated how sex negative their religious traditions were. negative, like had a negative view of sex and sexuality and sexual indulgence. And they thought that by ripping out that sex negativity and replacing it with sex positivity, but staying [00:15:00] Christian, saying whatever, they were creating a, like a better form of like Protestantism.And you saw a lot of churches do this and thinking they were being so hip. But in reality, there's a reason for the sex negativity that actually leads to more. Hedonic, you could almost argue, pleasure for the average person within that community because they're making better choices. And for example, choosing their partner based on arousal choosing their partner based on great aside here.Simone Collins: Yeah, I just want to, like, I just think that the best religions do set expectations low. And frankly, if you find a partner with whom you have a lot of good sexual chemistry, it's gonna happen. Just consider Queen Victoria, right? Like, the most, like, straight laced, like, everything Albert, and yet, I mean, they have nine kids.And they, she was into him. She was very into him. Although the first meeting, it was all about the parent. Anyway, keep going. Sorry.Malcolm Collins: Well, I'd also point out for people one, keep in mind that sexuality on average works very different in men and women. So the idea of saying to a woman telling a guy you can.You know, [00:16:00] change what arouses you or you know, what you're going to be interested in is, is quite a different thing. Like, and I think we see this a lot of the people who run a lot of these like sexual reassignment clinics are women may not understand how much more set in stone. Male arousal patterns are than female arousal patterns which I think are much more flexible around stuff like, well, we know from the data that they're more flexible around stuff like this.And I'm saying this just to start, like, if you're watching this and you're a straight man, like what could somebody do to get you turn, like to sleep with a guy? Like seriously, like for me, it would be. It would be really, really hard to get me to become aroused by a guy. Like, I just don't think it could easily happen.It, like, not if you electrocuted me, not if you electrocuted me every time I didn't get turned on by a guy. Not if you had me look at pictures of naked men every day for You [00:17:00] know, and these areSimone Collins: 100 percent all things that have been done in gay conversion therapy. Yeah, and like look at these sexy woman pictures.Are you not convinced now? It's just done by people who are so freaking straight. They're like, oh, I can't control myself Yeah, yeah, i'll not say no to this one. Oh my godMalcolm Collins: I'd actually think that that would get me more grossed out by women. 100%. Yeah, because thenSimone Collins: you're going to be like, why? It's like being exposed to a smell and you're like, listen, I'm just not into that smell.And they're like, no, smell it again, inhale deeper. And then you suddenly you're like, I think I'm going to throw up. Like thisMalcolm Collins: is. I'm being conditioned to hate. Like I have a visceral negative reaction to this smell.Simone Collins: 100%. Yeah. They just make you gayer. You're just getting gayer. AnotherMalcolm Collins: thing that's important for people to remember is if you go to our book, The Pragmatist Guide to Sexuality, we lay out a really long argument that disgust is the same emotion as arousal.It's just operating with a negative modifier. Not gonna go into long argument here for this, but what it means is that when somebody has inverted sexual patterns like, [00:18:00] say, a gay man, for example they are much They're more likely to have a disgust response to naked female bodies. So it's important to keep in mind that they might actually have an active aversion to sleeping with a woman.Which is different than just not being aroused, and that can make things significantly harder. But that can be mollified through many of the things that mollify arousal the, which we'll get into in a bit. Okay, so let's start here. What, what goes on at these, right? You know? Is it But I'm a Cheerleader for people?I used to love that show. It was my favorite movie growing up. It's such a good movie. It's about a girl who gets sent to one of these. Very funny if you haven't seen it. I actually suggest it. It's like an indie film. Anyway, psychotherapeutic methods. So talk therapy is common here. This is the most common form.It includes cognitive behavioral and interpersonal therapies. Some practitioners use hypnosis to alter thought patterns related to same sex attraction as well. Just like picturingSimone Collins: someone [00:19:00] sleeping on a couch and the therapist being like, you are not gay. I hypnotized your son to be into chicks.Boobs are cool.Oh myMalcolm Collins: God. No. So, So I was like, okay, so what does this mean exactly, right? So, identify and changing thought patterns. Therapists may try to help individuals recognize and alter their thought patterns around same sex attraction, often by reframing these attractions as unhealthy or undesirable. This seems like a giant mistake to do.For people who aren't aware, if you try to get somebody to not think about something, or frame a certain Thought is sinful. You get these patterns where people just like will like compulsively think that thing. And they'll think it much more and they'll feel like negative thoughts when they're thinking about it.Like teachings around sinful thoughts are likely like really deleterious. If this is something that you want to handle, it's much better to be like, okay, I understand this as part of who you are. Maybe even it makes sense to continue to masturbate to this stuff. But I wouldn't, like, [00:20:00] what? Like, can you to, to try to avoid and see these thoughts as sinful?This doesn't mean that you can't change people to change how they're thinking about their environment. So by this, what I mean is you could, for example, work with somebody to See an arousing thing is, is not necessarily a mandate for action, as it is seen within some parts of progressive culture, you know, just because this arouses you doesn't mean you need to do X or you don't need to think about this as controlling your identity.That could be really helpful in these sorts of therapy, but not, I think, probably everything they're doing. Role playing and behavior modification. Some therapists use role playing to teach stereotypical masculine or feminine behavior. Well, theySimone Collins: do this, but I'm a cheerleader. The movie you're referencing about a lesbian girl who was sent to one of these conversion camps.And I think they all, like, the girls have to wear pink and the boys all have to wear blue. And they have to, like,Malcolm Collins: do, like, Mopping and like vacuuming. Yeah. You do like play fighting and there's a great scene where in the play fighting ring. There's like a cutout of one soldier on his knees and the other has a gun to his head.But it's like [00:21:00] stereotype like boy blue.Speaker 5: Backwards. AndSpeaker 7: you slip it in, and out. Who wants to go down with me? Your thoughts, we'llMalcolm Collins: This almost certainly does nothing. If anything, I'm quite. It's funny. So. It's funny, but it almost certainly I, I'd say gets individuals more into their gender into their existing like gay or lesbian identity because you abstract these gender roles into something that feels unnatural for the individual.And you say, this is what a natural gender role is, but because they're not enjoying it and it's not, you know, natural in that context, I mean, you've made it an artificial thing in this context. They then think, oh, this isn't for me, like, this, I am not straight or I would be [00:22:00] liking the play fighting or the vacuuming or the other stereotypical women roles.Exploring childhood experiences. Practitioners might explore an individual's childhood experiences, suggesting that same sex attraction is a result of past trauma or family dynamics. One, it's not. Like there's just, this is an area where like, I'm not worried about the data. Like it is not psychotherapySimone Collins: nonsense.What did your mother do to you?Malcolm Collins: Yeah, because the stuff, well, and I, I think generally almost any form of psychotherapy or, or, or, or psychological talk to help somebody. This used to be a field that I worked in people. I'm not like out of nowhere. I actually had memorized the entire DSM at one point.I'm that much of a nerd about this stuff. If for people who know the DSM is like this thick, it's like an insane thing to have memorized it, but I want it to be cool that that was what I thought the cool kids did. That's how much of a nerd I was. But anyway the, the, if somebody's doing like a, what happened to you in your childhood that caused something that person is [00:23:00] not a therapist, that is a cult.That is not a real thing. The reason why people do that is to help break your connection with your support network, which is your parent and birth culture. And then that can be used to build dependency on an individual. This is why, if you go to something like a Scientologist meeting, if you, I've gone to them before, they'll be like, okay, what, what, like, that's the first thing they'll ask you.So why therapists used to do this before they realized how bad it was and why it's re emerged within some of the hokier parts of therapy. And some people like freak out on us on it because they've read books by individuals, like say Erica Commissar who's like, oh, all this stuff, relation, children to their parents.And if you actually look at, like, she's a great person, right? She's a fine person. But her beliefs around like the psychological schools that she finds compelling are like straight up Freudian. It's like she's like, I'm influenced by Freudian psychology. This is not this is [00:24:00] a, I'm not going to say it's like evil or wrong or anything like that, but it is a theological position, I guess I'd say.It's not bound by like a realistic mechanism.Simone Collins: Yeah, but you would argue, even if we're calling it a cult or a culture, that it doesn't produce Great outcomes. SoMalcolm Collins: it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't, it's not, it's not based on what I would call like a, there's, there's different ways that you can rate relate to the mind and something like this.And I would put hers in, like, look, if somebody's doing like Kabbalistic therapy or something like that, I'd be like. Okay, but that's like a religious therapy like you understand most people be like, yeah, I understand that this belief that all of this stuff that happens when you're super young is super important to your adult life It's just not that important.Unless it's like really big like you can like traumatize a kid for sure like yeah Can you traumatize them into being gay? Probably not, unless you've done some like really serious stuff. Well, you could, you could give them [00:25:00]Simone Collins: hormones. FearMalcolm Collins: of sleeping with the opposite gender. You could give themSimone Collins: hormones and mess them up that way.Oh, you could doMalcolm Collins: that, yeah.Simone Collins: And parents too, so.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, parents too, but the, the which, which would change gender if primary attraction, you're right about that. Could, which could. Could. But and again here I'm not, thing that nothing that happens to you in your childhood matters. It can matter, but it needs to be pretty extreme to matter.It's not like general, like how much was my mom home has a huge difference. Your mom is like broadly non abusive and you have somebody caring with you for you. The, the difference is not that big. As we can see, when kids grow up in single father households, they don't do that much differently than parents who grow up in two parents households.Which is usually because if they're with a father, that's the more responsible person. And so from that, we know a lot of the research on people who grow up in single parent households or, or other sorts of disruptive households. The, the, what There are confoundingSimone Collins: issues there. Basically, in a, in the United States, if a father is getting the kids, he is so exceptionally better than [00:26:00] the mother, than it Did throw things off.So what it showsMalcolm Collins: is if you get a good pair, it's like the same way that the studies that show that like when, when gay people raise kids, the kids turn out better often than when straight people raise them. And that's mostly an effect of just how hard it is to get kids as a gay couple. That doesn't necessarily indicate but, but, by this, what I mean is you have to go through like tons and tons of screening to get kids with a gay couple, at least when a lot of the studies were done. I don't know if it's still the case, but I think it is. I mean, my understanding is adoption is astronomically difficult right now.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: So I imagine it's still the case.Okay, so then aversion therapy. This involves associating same sex attractions. It was unpleasant stimuli such as shocks, nausea, or physical discomfort to create negative associations. It's like remembering, but I'm a cheerleader when they shock her every time. Yeah. Does this work now? Of course, you know, the AI at first was like, well, obviously this, you can't fix sexuality, but then I'm Is aversion therapy used in any other place in psychology these days?Like, because like, obviously it won't say that it works for sexuality, but does it work for anything else? And it's like, well, it's used in addiction treatment. It's like, okay, so what? It is? Oh, [00:27:00]Simone Collins: itMalcolm Collins: is. Aversion therapy can lead to short term reduction in substance use, but long term efficacy is debated.Basically it doesn't have long term efficacy. Oh, okay. So it doesn't work. A phobias. Again it's been shown to have some short term utility, but does not appear to have long term utility. Same with anxiety behaviors. So it's used in self harm behaviors. Aversion therapy has been used to reduce self harming behaviors, such as cutting, by associating these players with unpleasant stimuli.But I don't get, isn't like cutting the unpleasant stimuli. You're just giving someone like an additional unpleasant stimuli. Like you just madeSimone Collins: cutting plus congratulations. Upgrade plus new mode activated. Cutting a premium premium version. Yeah. Are we going to talk about what does work not for changing orientation, but for at least reducing.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, so they, they then mentioned medical methods. So hormone and steroidal therapies have been attempted. These are, it said, these are sometimes used under the belief that [00:28:00] hormonal imbalances contribute to sexual orientation or gender identity. I love it. It says this as if this is not true, like your hormones absolutely determine your, you know, sexual identity.That's why this is likeSimone Collins: extremely well attested, just based on the way that women's arousal patterns. Interests in different types of male dynamics change throughout their cycle, like even within one person.Malcolm Collins: The problem is, is there don't appear to be, like, good studies on this. So, like, if I was somebody who, like, personally, absolutely wanted to attempt to change my arousal patterns, I would probably do some hormonal experimentation.But it's just not well studied. Like we know from trans individuals, plausibly it can change how erosive patterns activate, but I'd imagine you really need to do something that extreme to get a change in patterns. And that like, if I'm a gay man and I just take more testosterone or something, I'm just going to be even more turned on by men.That would be my thought as the main. outcome of that. With [00:29:00] women, there might be more stuff that you can do in regards to this, but basically the answer here is not enough data to know.Chemical castration. In some extreme cases, this involves using drugs to suppress sexual desire. And I thought it was so funny when I was thinking through, I was like, Oh, it's so wild.That when I was young the fear is that, you know, conservatives would come and, and take away like the, the young, like tomboy y lesbian girl and chemically castrate them. And now those same drugs are being given to that same population by far lefties under the guise of puberty blockers and, and trans stuff.So, that is wild. It does change sex I mean, I don't think anyone should be doing this to But like, it does, you know, work in that it does lower arousal patterns, I suppose. And then that got me thinking. I was like, okay, well, suppose I just want to, like, lower my arousal patterns in general, so I'm not as tempted, right?I was like, what, what can do that, right? Because obviously things can do that. Like, every [00:30:00] antidepressant says, like, I don't lower your arousal patterns. SSRIs do,So anti androgens can medications like Kipro, Actinor, and Endicor can reduce testosterone levels and lower sex drive. They're sometimes used in cases of hypersexuality and treatment of sex offenders, so they probably work on a regular person.Or you can just be unhealthy dietary adjustments. So for example soy products you could become a level four boy. High intake may lower testosterone levels. Greasy foods will affect sperm production and libido. Refined carbohydrates and excess alcohol consumption all may help now I don't know because alcohol consumption would lower Your ability to suppress the libido.So it might lower libido, but also lower your ability to contain whatever was there Exercise that'll also help lower your libido.Simone Collins: Really? That's interesting. And I heard that before. OhMalcolm Collins: no, but if you exercise too much apparently it can lower libido. Like when you did when you were younger and you ended up losing it.Yeah, yeah,Simone Collins: yeah, yeah.Malcolm Collins: AndSimone Collins: Oh, cause your body thinks you're like migrating and starving.Malcolm Collins: Before I go to the last one, I would [00:31:00] argue like if I wanted to do this, right? Naltrexone is an absolute wonder drug.Simone Collins: I was just thinking that. But it would just make sex not fun. It wouldn't make you interested in what it would make itMalcolm Collins: marginally less fun.So I take enough naltrexone so that I'm only a little addicted to alcohol. I didn't want to give up my alcohol addiction entirely. This is not the way you're supposed to use it. But it actually has like a bunch of other like positive side effects. If you take naltrexoneSimone Collins: yeah, like this is not super well documented, but it may have made him.Significantly more immune to COVID. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, because I never got COVID and I always wondered why and I was reading a study and it was like, Oh, low dose naltrexone appears to create immunity to COVID in some people. I was like, that's crazy. But it has like a bunch of other benefits because you know, now I, you know, I actually stopped checking Facebook.Like entirely?Simone Collins: Yeah, I think it'sMalcolm Collins: also becauseSimone Collins: FacebookMalcolm Collins: got boring. It makes you less addicted to social media, it affects those pathways it can be useful for gambling, it can be useful for [00:32:00] anything that's using the opioid pathway to sort of force behavior. Yeah, food, sex,Simone Collins: exercise, gambling, anything but smoking, prettyMalcolm Collins: much, right?But yeah, but what's important is that you take it and then you do the thing. So you'd have to like take it and masturbate to gay porn and then not be interested in masturbating to gay porn as much within a few weeks of doing that. Yeah. You can take it at low doses. If you're like, I still want to enjoy this.I just don't want to enjoy it so much that it's distracting or causes unhealthy behavior. Yeah. Which is, I wanted a little unhealthy behavior with alcohol. I was like, I don't actually want to be a teetotaler, but like. I also don't want to die. And I found a happy medium. I test myself all the time now and I'm not having any issues.I even got my liver scanned and it's totally down to a normal size here. It looks like a normal liver. And so, I, which it wasn't for a while. I actually had major problems at one point, which is when I, when I decided I needed to look at this seriously and do something about this. But I mean, how is that decision particularly different?Like I. [00:33:00] Was prone to addiction to alcohol or prone to like really wanting alcohol because of my genetics, right? A person might be prone to same sex attraction because of something that they can't control. I didn't control that I had a preference for alcohol. And yet I am able to say, and therefore, despite that, despite me not choosing this desire, I am choosing to suppress this desire or work to engage with this desire in a fashion that doesn't interfere with other things I want from life like having aSimone Collins: familyMalcolm Collins: and everything like that.That's not considered weird but if I do that for, like, eating too much with, like, the Haze movement, then it's considered weird. I've always thought, Haze is an even better example of this, like, I control my alcohol, or I work to do that, and they're, they don't work to control their food, they're like, eating too much.No, no, no, no, no, no, no, but, but what,Simone Collins: Ozempic. It, Ozempic is, is the naltrexone of food. People are totally into that. [00:34:00]Malcolm Collins: Yeah so, you could use naltrexone to, to work on this, what youSimone Collins: pointed out in the pragmatist guide to sexuality was you could also just overdose on it. You canMalcolm Collins: also overdose, that should work.So you do appear to be able to reduce sexual desire of specific varieties by overindulging in them. Yeah, like theSimone Collins: best gay conversion camps would be like quarterly gay orgies.Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, I sometimes wonder if those didn't happen historically. Yeah, you just gotSimone Collins: it out of your system. And I mean, I listen, I mean, if I were so actually responsible player in the space and I actually wanted to help these poor Christian young men and maybe women just like get over it and like go back to the real world and feel normal.This would be the right thing to do. It wouldn't, the families wouldn't want to know about it, but if you want to like really reduce. Their desire,Malcolm Collins: this would be the right thing to do. Well, I mean, that might actually be something that's happening. So, [00:35:00] you know, I can't talk about my own experience. Again, not slept with a guy at something like the Bohemian Grove.But it has been reported that I've gone in, in various things. I can say, like, at least I've gone. I can't say any more about the extent of my connection to that. But I can talk about somebody who did go on the record about their experiences there which was Richard Nixon, and he called it the gayest f*****g place on earth.He actually used aSimone Collins: worse, a worse word than that, but you can imagine. Oh yes, he didn'tMalcolm Collins: use the f word. And so it's an all male retreat for like elite conservative men. And could it have been if a Richard Nixon's understanding of it was accurate, could it have been a place where a lot of gay people went and slept together?Obviously that wouldn't be everyone there. You have a lot of other reasons to go to a retreat without women. But when I look at throughout history, the all male secret societies. That, that elite conservatives went to and knowing quotes like Richard Nixon talking about one of the [00:36:00] things that people who already had this arousal pattern at these specific events may have overindulged in that, that they may have served some utility for that.And that's absolutely fascinating. It's a fun theory.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Does that make them more satanic? Who knows?Simone Collins: Doesn't it make them more progressive and normal? I, yeah, who knows? What I can tell is somebodyMalcolm Collins: who's like gone to all the actual Secret Society stuff like the stuff that people have on their records is like so much tamer than anyone thinks it is.Simone Collins: Yeah, but also like their insinuations of what could be worse are so off. They're so off.Malcolm Collins: They're so off about like where the, the bad decisions are made behind closed doors and where the, the, Yeah, and whatSimone Collins: the really crazy outlandish stuff is. It's not what you think it is.Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, and a lot of these organizations have been taken over by wokes.Like Skull and Bones was totally taken over by wokes. We should probably do an episode on that one day. You know. I guess a lot of people wouldn't have a lot of connections in there, but yeah, skull and [00:37:00] bones and it's, it's even in like the media now, like the media has, I'm not releasing private information here.I don't want to get in trouble. That's why I'm just like being like, but yeah, skull and bones totally taken over by the wokes. And I can say that I think the, the, the, their, The culture war has touched all of these types of locations, and typically the older a place is the easier and more bureaucratic it is, the easier it was for woke individuals to sort of get their teeth into it, and then basically prevent it from serving anything close to its historic function.Which is why we run our own secret societies basically now, when we go to cities and stuff like that, and we invite people who are, like, influential in that city. And I'll note here that these are not like fan meetings. Sometimes fans have reached out and been like, I've heard you're meeting with people.It's like, yes, because all of these people have jobs. It's not like for anyone who watches our podcast. But anyway thoughts before I go into the final stuff here, the faith based methods.Simone Collins: No, proceed. Oh, you mean we're going to talk about faith based methods now?Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, I was just going to say the faith based methods are prayer and spiritual counseling.These [00:38:00] methods often rely on religious beliefs that view same sex attraction as sinful or abnormal. They may include anti gay slurs and prayers. You know, I don't think that this is going to be very effective. If anything, I think it's just going to focus the person's attention on these issues. And then exorcisms, in some cases exorcisms.Oh,Simone Collins: okay.Malcolm Collins: Which that actually could work weirdly. I'm going to say, because an exorcism could be similar to like,Simone Collins: Going trans, like really just being like, I've been, I'm new, I'm a different person. It's gone. TheyMalcolm Collins: could see themselves as a new person enough that it might change their arousal patterns.I don't, like, I wouldn't say it. ItSimone Collins: could help them contextualize the residual arousal patterns that they feel. As remnants of demonic possession and therefore not act on it and in general not lean into them because I think there's also like, well, we don't have a lot of control over our sex drives and.I do think that you can lean into something and you can lean out of something. [00:39:00] You can make it a bigger thing, or you can choose to play it down, and that might encourage playing it down.Malcolm Collins: Yeah and so, broadly speaking I think that the best thing to do, like, if you actually, if this was a big problem for you and conflicted, with your faith and the way you wanted to live your life.Something like naltrexone I think would be the safest way to address this. I think a, well, especially ifSimone Collins: you're trying to reduce what you see to be problematic behavior that you don't want to have anymore, but it's not going to make you want to do something that you,Malcolm Collins: it's only if you want to get rid of the behavior, right?You want to reduce these impulses, indulge in them while on naltrexone. Yes. But I think theSimone Collins: bigger thing is. You can't make yourself want something that you don't want, but wish you wanted.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and i'd point out here now i'm going to say something crazy i'd point out here if you want to live a hedonistic life, there are few things you can be born that are better than a gay man.Like, I was actually bemoaning this with Simone. I was like, [00:40:00] I if I was a gay guy, I, it would be like being able to one, have an easy time, like with like an orgy where like everyone at the orgy is a woman, first of all, because you're like, you're aroused by everyone at the orgy. The thing that grosses me out the most about like the concept of an orgy is like half the people that are going to be guys, like, I don't want to see naked guys.I receive a strong disgust response, but if I was a guy I'd be like an orgy full of women. And dating way easier, you know, because you're, you're reaching out to people who aren't a******s who have, I'm not saying all women are a******s, but I'm saying that being the gatekeepers within sexual marketplaces causes women to relate to men in a way that can be derisive.Like if they don't, I mean, women really. come off as quite cruel to men within sexual marketplaces because they get spoiled. Seeing like even normal overtures as creepy or whatever wouldn't have to deal with that as much if I wasn't being creepy as a gay man. Because you know, they would have a [00:41:00] better understanding of me.Another one you like would be dealing with people who are on average, more attractive to the general population. I don't know if you like Have many gay male normal friends, but like a gay men, put a lot more effort into how they look Yeah, on average they take way better care of themselves.Yes. Yeah and And I was also just thinking like even something like a like a singles cruise Like I was on a gay man on a singles cruise Like that's something where you can actually like sleep around with women. You can't do that because like women actually want something out of this. Like there isn't like this large pool of women who just wants to sleep around all the time, but all of these men who I was attracted to would also have the male sexual profile of preferring variety.And. Now, all of this is, is, is maybe on the net bad for gay people because it's more temptation. But I'm just saying, if you're hidden as a maxing you're actually in a preferable position to be born gay. In this age,Simone Collins: yeah. InMalcolm Collins: this age, well, with this prep and everything like that, which is like an [00:42:00] AIDS drug and stuff.It, but I'll never experience that. A party, like a multi-day, day like fire I island party. There is like no straight thing. That's the equivalent to that? No, except like maybe a furry party, but that's mostly gay anyway. No, you like,Simone Collins: no, there's, there's just always gonna be drawbacks there. Yeah. Unless you're like some historical sultan with a menagerie of women.I guess there's, there's just no Did gayMalcolm Collins: people, what did you say? Gay. Gay people get to have the sex lives of like historic sultansSimone Collins: basically. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Basically.Simone Collins: But it's a little more fun because I think, let's say that you're a sultan with your menagerie of women, like you don't get to feel like you've conquered, you don't get to feel like you've won someone over.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Because they, they're justSimone Collins: there because you have money and resources. So I think it's even better now.Malcolm Collins: Then you murdered their husbands.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I'm not, I'm not saying that, well, that might make it a little hotter, you know?Simone Collins: Yeah. For some, it depends on what you're into.Malcolm Collins: I mean, it depends on what [00:43:00] you're into.Yeah. But the, the, the point I'm making here is that, think it's cool to revisit these topics that we, for so long, we're not allowed to talk about or investigate or think critically about with a more open minded approach that is less reactive in the way that the progressives in the urban monoculture react to the environment.Simone Collins: Well,so then I think our takeaway from this is if the Supreme Court overturns state bans on gay conversion therapy. A bunch of like businesses are going to maybe start providing, providing it again, but it's not going to do anything. So you're just getting, it's, it's like being like, Oh yes, we now allow homeopathic therapy again.And it's like, well, okay. I mean, some people are going to get make money and some people are going to have their money taken from them.Malcolm Collins: It entrenches the issue because if you look at the types of practices that they're doing, for me, it would cause me to focus more on what's arousing me and help me not.See myself [00:44:00] as, you know, what could make you think you're not straight more than simulating like a housewife's life with a stranger? I know, I know. A person being like, does this feel normal to you? Yeah, I think likeSimone Collins: if, let's say that we were in like some culture where it's just like super not okay to be gay, we'd just be like, well, like your life is not about pleasure or sex.And whether you were gay or straight, we wouldn't want it to be. We don't want you to be in a straight relationship and straight and obsessed with sex because that is really not productive. It's almost a blessing that you're gay. So, don't worry about it. That's fine. You know, focus on the things that actually matter and you're okay.That kind of thing, like, I guess, is what we would advise someone to say if they actually were really not okay with their kid being gay.Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, I would, I would focus more on the kid. I think that like, my question here is, should a kid be forced? to have an opinion like that. No, it can't, shouldn't be forced to have an opinion like that.But if they were brought up in a culture that they like and want to [00:45:00] stay in they should be allowed to pursue therapies and stuff that make it easier to stay in a culture that they want.Simone Collins: So I don't know, like if our sons, if any of our sons say, listen, we're gay. My first thing is just like, make sure you make a lot of money because.Having kids is going to cost you a ton more. If our daughters turn out to be lesbians, I'd be like, Congratulations, you can double up on kids immediately. This is amazing, you've hit the jackpot.Malcolm Collins: But I would be about as orchi our kids going to something like this, as I would be our kids you know, being gender transitioned.I'm going,Simone Collins: they're going through gay conversion. Yeah, I do not think Yeah, no, no, it just makes things worse. You're absolutely right. It makes things worse.Malcolm Collins: And I think that in reality, the vast majority, when I talk about like drugs and stuff like that, that lowered libido, the majority of the time I actually think these drugs should be implemented is not necessarily same sex attraction for young people, but just arousal patterns that the young person [00:46:00] finds problematic or deleterious with their daily life.Yeah. Which some people have, they develop fetishes or they develop You know, it was one I saw somebody talking about on a show recently was they developed like an addiction to like sissy hypnoporn and like, I wouldn't like if I was aroused by that, I would probably take a chemical to suppress that.Yeah. Oh, yeah.Simone Collins: Yeah. If you don't like it and it doesn't make you feel good about yourself, then let's let's. Let's take some naltrexone.Malcolm Collins: I'd be like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, ISimone Collins: bet that there are a lot of gay men who are in, who have like a beard, who are in a relationship and they are the only ones in the world who actually know their arousal pathways, who really wish that they just felt them less.And in this case, naltrexone would be. Amazing. Just make lifeMalcolm Collins: less. So I think it's about being accepting of all lifestyles, both gay people who want to live as gay people, but also gay people who want to live within cultures that, that say that you should marry a woman and have kids.Simone Collins: Because again, [00:47:00] whoever said that sex was more important than religion, culture, and family?Malcolm Collins: The urban monoculture, literally. But that'sSimone Collins: insane! That's insane. I mean, even for someone who has a lot of sex, then the hours of the year that they spend having sex, not that many hours. Not that many. In the end.Malcolm Collins: That's a weird thing to define identity around.Simone Collins: Yeah, but just like, if we're talking pleasure hours though, like versus other things that could yield more pleasure hours, if that's all you're optimizing for, it just is such a dumb thing to make your life decisionsMalcolm Collins: around.Doesn't make, there's no logic to it. I love you autistic woman autistic, mostly asexual woman who's just like, sex doesn't make logical sense.Simone Collins: Give me the argument in favor of its utility. Right, Indy.Malcolm Collins: Love you to death, Simone.Simone Collins: I love you so much, Malcolm. And you are very, very, very, very sexy. I'm, I'm gay [00:48:00] for you, so.Malcolm Collins: Well, I'm, I, I'm gay for women. Thank goodness. That's, that's wonderful. No, I think, I think you're attractive as well.Simone Collins: Huh, yeah. You're just dealing with post marriage sex life, which Well,Malcolm Collins: I mean, it would reward me more if I was sleeping with lots of other women. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. We have that video.I'm allowed to, but like, it seems like a waste of time. RememberSimone Collins: the last time we were on a college campus or in a bunch of people wearing swimsuits, it was like kind of hard. Like there were enough fit guys around, butMalcolm Collins: oh yeah, men are not as attractive as they used to be. When theSimone Collins: economy is kind of rough right now.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I was like,Simone Collins: so yeah, good luck. I'm glad you went on your rumspringa sexually when you did, because I think before you, yeah, well, no, no, no. Like before women started letting go, I guess before theMalcolm Collins: randomly accusing people of things. [00:49:00] And before all of these women have, but also like on the whole, I thinkSimone Collins: college women were more attractive 15 years ago.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you areSimone Collins: now.Malcolm Collins: Sorry. I'm sorry guys. You've got the mooses, the mooses, the meeses. Mooses are majestic creatures. And many people would say that about these scooter roaming college campuses these days. They'reSimone Collins: just They're not even Scooter Beasts, they're like soft and unremarkable. Yeah, shapeless, like, yeah, like lumpy space princess.Malcolm Collins: Yes, that is, that is, that is women on college campus these days, this lumpy space princess.Speaker 11: I knew you liked me. No, I don't. I'm just stopping by because Just admit it, lover boy. You can't resist me. Well, if you want these lumps, you gotta put a ring on it. Where's my ring? I knew you liked me then.That's why you're running. Get in touch with your feelings, [00:50:00] babe.Simone Collins: Sweatpants, the rounded edges, yeah, there's just no more sharp edges left.Malcolm Collins: You just want my lumps, I'll post thatSimone Collins: Alright, alright,alright, alright.I love you.Malcolm Collins: Love you too.Simone Collins: That was fun, I just love speaking with you so much.I loveMalcolm Collins: speaking with you too.Simone Collins: All right. Thank you.Malcolm Collins: By the way, this Limestone article is such a puff piece.Simone Collins: What? The Guardian article? It's not about Limestone.Malcolm Collins: It is largely about Limestone.Simone Collins: Well, they hate us. So he, and they, share a common person they dislike. They're clearly trying to censorMalcolm Collins: him as like the pronatalist you should listen to.They don't say anything mean about him or take anything that he said out of context.Simone Collins: Nope.Malcolm Collins: Which shows that like they are To anyone who has, like, media literacy, they are trying to promote him while framing him as a reasonable alternative to us. But the problem is that everything he says in the piece is super Like nothing burger, [00:51:00] like watery and, and, you know, it's, it's not going to do well.Like nobody's going to familiesSimone Collins: need to be treated better. It, it is vague, but it is the guardian Malcolm. Don't worry about it.Malcolm Collins: Well, nobody sees it anymore. They don't even have a Twitter account anymore. Or an ex account.Simone Collins: Oh, yes. DidMalcolm Collins: they get the, you know, all their pieces were getting nerfed. Unless they just summarize them.And so, you know, who sees their stuff anymore?Simone Collins: Subscribers, people in. The UK, theoretically,Malcolm Collins: theoretically.Speaker 12: It's a shopping cart. A shopping cart?That's a pretty full purse. What's going on with the airport? I just had to bring these back to the airport so, uh, but I got these from the [00:52:00] Predators. Yeah, it's a small car,Oh my gosh, Titan. You have such a full purse. Nom, nom,Speaker 14: nom, nom. Oh, the, the police are protecting the police, the, the police are making sure predators do not get in the airport.Speaker 12: I think the predators of an airport are called terrorists.Speaker 14: Terrorists.Speaker 12: Yes.Speaker 14: Stop interrupting my airport. You're out.Speaker 12: Terrorizing. Stop terrorizing my airport.Speaker 14: Yeah. Terrorizing. He's terrorizing the airport. This is a public episode. 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