Talking Tokens

In this episode of Talking Tokens, Jacquelyn sits down with Annelise Osborne, Chief Business Officer at Kadena — a proof-of-work Layer 1 built by former JP Morgan blockchain leads. Kadena isn’t just another chain; it’s an ambitious bet that regulation, decentralization, and enterprise-grade tooling can live in the same ecosystem.They dive into Annelise’s Wall Street background, her work on the SEC’s ICO task force, and why she sees tokenization, smart contracts, and privacy as the keys to bridging TradFi with crypto. From building Kadena’s BD, grants, and ecosystem playbook to running fan tokens for the Croatian football team, Annelise shares what it takes to build a business layer on top of chain infra — and how she’s positioning Kadena for long-term adoption.⏱️ Timestamps(0:00) - Intro: Why Proof-of-Work Still Matters in 2025 (1:26) - Annelise’s Background: From Moody’s to Crypto and the ICO Task Force (5:12) - Why Kadena Chose Multi-Chain Proof-of-Work (8:13) - Merging TradFi & DeFi: Tokenization and Real-World Assets (12:34) - Institutional Adoption: What They Want (and Don’t) (17:12) - Building a Business Layer on Top of Kadena (20:05) - Fan Tokens, Fashion NFTs & Global Consumer Use Cases (24:01) - Who Kadena Funds and Why (27:23) - The Challenge of Regulated DeFi and the U.S. Compliance Angle (30:00) - The Future of DeFi: Access, Collateral, and Mortgages (34:04) - M&A in Crypto and Where Kadena Is Looking (37:35) - How L1s Are Competing: Devs, Regulation, and TVL (40:18) - Why Private Chains May Struggle vs Public Chains (42:26) - Final Advice: Stay Curious, Be Resilient, Build in PublicYou can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube.If you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZApple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Follow us on XJacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinekTalking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokensFollow us on InstagramTalking Tokens: https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/

On today’s Talking Tokens episode, Jacquelyn sits down live at the Finance Leaders Collective with Jonas Kristensen, Head of Wintermute Ventures — the investment arm of one of crypto’s most prolific trading firms. With over 100 startup investments since 2019, Wintermute has become a force in early-stage crypto VC.Jonas shares how they spot high-conviction founders, why stablecoins are the hottest sector right now, and how regulation, memecoins, and institutional appetite are shaping the space. He also reflects on the impact of Circle’s IPO, and why prediction markets are his next big curiosity.Whether it’s DeFi, stablecoins, or new rails like tokenized equities, Jonas explains what’s real, what’s noise, and how Wintermute plans to keep deploying — in bull and bear markets alike.TIMESTAMPS(0:00) - Intro (0:46) - Who is Jonas Kristensen & how Wintermute Ventures operates (1:46) - Why Wintermute focuses on infrastructure and trades off its own balance sheet (2:34) - State of crypto VC in 2025: active, early-stage heavy, regulation turning (4:03) - Stablecoin builders from the bear market are now winning (5:44) - How U.S. elections + Robinhood’s token push reshaped the market (7:24) - What VCs look for in early-stage crypto founders today (8:30) - Circle IPO, public demand, and stablecoin market exposure (10:25) - Three real PMF products: stablecoins, perp trading, Bitcoin (11:31) - Going mainstream: ETFs, neobanks, and new distribution rails (16:03) - Prediction markets: untapped trading frontier with big potentialIf you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZ Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokensTalking Tokens: https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/Note: This podcast is for informational purposes only and any views shared by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have a direct or indirect financial interest in content mentioned in this episode.

On today’s Talking Tokens episode, Jacquelyn sat down with Misha Putiatin, co-founder of Symbiotic — the cross-chain staking protocol that quietly raised $29M in April from Pantera, Coinbase Ventures, and 100+ angels.Rather than announce with a whitepaper, Symbiotic launched with product in hand — already live across 16 networks. Misha dives deep into why staking infrastructure today is broken, how Symbiotic is enabling universal staking without one-size-fits-all assumptions, and how the team’s 25 developers built a framework adopted by 16 protocols (and counting).They also talk about developer culture, what most people get wrong about blockchain security, and how to break out of the crypto bubble to reach real users.TIMESTAMPS(0:00) - Intro: Who is Misha & what is Symbiotic (1:02) - Symbiotic’s $29M raise: not the focus here (3:00) - What universal staking really means (4:15) - The origin story: 25 devs, 16 networks (6:00) - Why Symbiotic launched product-first, not with hype (9:15) - “Whitepaper drops” vs actually building (11:00) - How building has changed across cycles (13:00) - Why audits cost millions (and why they matter) (15:00) - What “universal” staking means in practice (17:00) - Are protocols coming to Symbiotic — or vice versa? (19:00) - How big can this get? (21:00) - The challenge of one-size-fits-all security (23:00) - Where today’s staking systems fall short (25:00) - Breaking the crypto echo chamber (27:00) - Is blockchain security fundamentally broken? (29:00) - Why people need to look under the hood (30:00) - What the $29M raise will actually fund (33:00) - Dev culture: what people don’t understand (35:00) - The long-term vision for staking infrastructure (37:00) - What it’ll take to coordinate cross-chain security (38:00) - Multichain future: inevitable or idealistic? (40:00) - Final advice from Misha: don’t rush the storyIf you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZ Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokensTalking Tokens: https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/Note: This podcast is for informational purposes only and any views shared by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have a direct or indirect financial interest in content mentioned in this episode.TIMESTAMPSYou can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube.Follow us on XFollow us on Instagram

On today’s Talking Tokens episode, Jacquelyn sat down with Jack O’Holleran, co-founder of SKALE Network and CEO of SKALE Labs. Jack shares why MEV is a hidden tax on users, how FAIR — SKALE’s new Layer- 1 — aims to eliminate it at the consensus level, and how crypto infrastructure must evolve for an AI-driven future.They discuss the difference between SKALE and FAIR, why stablecoins and AI will become deeply intertwined, and how the dual-token model will reward SKALE holders as FAIR goes live. Jack also shares his vision for category-defining products and why the blockchain industry needs to move past hype and toward fundamentals.TIMESTAMPS(0:00) - Crypto’s future is stablecoin-native & MEV-free (1:02) - Jack’s journey: enterprise software to SKALE Labs (4:47) - Why SKALE scaled to 100M+ txs/mo (6:01) - What devs want: FAIR as L1 for DeFi & AI (7:16) - Why MEV is crypto’s invisible tax (9:01) - Encrypted mempools, front-running & Byte protocol (10:49) - How AI + stablecoins combine to enable real programmable money (13:11) - Why TradFi bans MEV, and crypto shouldn’t tolerate it (14:24) - The “spin” behind MEV as ‘real economic value’ (15:58) - MEV-resistance as default — not opt-in (17:06) - Why stablecoins may rival AI in impact (21:00) - Will AI payments break traditional banking rails? (24:00) - Infra vs apps: where AI funding should go (26:00) - FAIR launch: already live in testnet (27:00) - The developer traction and feedback (29:00) - SKALE x FAIR: how the dual-token model works (31:00) - Why SKALE supply will deflate as FAIR grows (33:00) - Timing, launch strategy & market sentiment (35:00) - Jack’s take on crypto hype vs utility (36:00) - Final advice: always dig under the hoodIf you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZ Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokensTalking Tokens: https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/Note: This podcast is for informational purposes only and any views shared by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have a direct or indirect financial interest in content mentioned in this episode.You can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube.Follow us on XFollow us on Instagram

On today’s Talking Tokens episode, Jacquelyn sat down with Abubakar Nur Khalil, CEO of Recursive Capital and board member and CEO of Btrust — the Bitcoin development organization backed by Jack Dorsey and Jay-Z. Abubakar has been at the center of Bitcoin’s growth across Africa, from launching a venture fund to distributing over $1.7 million in grants to open-source developers.They discuss why Btrust is expanding from Africa to Latin America, the role of Bitcoin in energy, governance, and national treasuries, and why Abubakar sees Bitcoin as fundamentally different from crypto. He also breaks down what’s driving local adoption, why builders are choosing Bitcoin over web2 or AI careers, and what’s next for Bitcoin education, regulation, and electrification across the Global South.TIMESTAMPS:(0:00) - How Bitcoin is evolving in Nigeria and beyond (1:02) - Who is Abubakar Nur Khalil? (2:16) - Starting Recursive Capital and building a Bitcoin VC fund (4:47) - Why they rebranded to focus solely on Bitcoin (5:45) - The story behind Btrust and its $1.7M in grants (7:03) - Why Btrust is expanding beyond Africa (9:01) - Why developers want to be paid in Bitcoin (10:14) - Abubakar’s Bitcoin thesis vs other crypto projects (12:07) - The 3 biggest Bitcoin use cases right now (15:03) - Why Bitcoin treasuries matter for African startups (16:07) - How Recursive and Btrust stay separate (17:20) - What surprised him most about building both orgs (20:00) - Educating developers who don’t know Bitcoin careers exist (23:02) - What governments are thinking about Bitcoin in 2024 (28:00) - Final advice: Align your principles, then actYou can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube. If you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZApple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Follow us on X: Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokensFollow us on InstagramTalking Tokens: https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/Note that this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views shared by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have a direct or indirect financial interest in content mentioned in this episode.

On today’s Talking Tokens episode, Jacquelyn sat down with Kevin Boon, President of Mysten Labs, the core team behind the Sui blockchain. From fine arts and law to building crypto infrastructure, Kevin shares his unconventional journey and what’s next for the Sui ecosystem.They discuss how Kevin balances legal and leadership roles, how the community responded to the recent Cetus exploit, and why Mysten is building out its own full infrastructure stack. Kevin also talks about tokenized equities, stablecoins, and what DeFi products actually have product-market fit.TIMESTAMPS:(0:00) - Is Sui really decentralized? (1:02) - Kevin’s journey: art school to crypto (4:47) - How he became president of Mysten Labs (7:16) - What it’s like leading a blockchain ecosystem (12:03) - The Cetus exploit and community response (17:01) - Governance vs centralization (20:12) - What is Walrus and why it matters (27:58) - Real-world use cases: ads, telecom, storage (30:23) - Building Mysten’s full product stack (32:10) - What DeFi actually works (37:56) - Stablecoins and institutional demand (42:04) - Tokenized equities and new markets (44:47) - The future: DeFi mortgages and beyond (47:38) - Final advice: build for hard timesYou can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube. If you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZApple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Follow us on X:  Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokensFollow us on InstagramTalking Tokens: https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/Note that this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views shared by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have a direct or indirect financial interest in content mentioned in this episode.

On today’s Talking Tokens episode, Jacquelyn sat down with Mary-Catherine “MC” Lader, President and COO of Uniswap Labs. Uniswap is behind the world’s largest decentralized exchange and recently launched Unichain, a new layer-2 blockchain built to optimize trading and liquidity.They discuss Mary’s journey from Goldman Sachs to BlackRock, where she founded the digital assets division in 2015 and led early innovation in tokenization. Now at Uniswap, MC shares her vision for simplifying DeFi, why the team launched Unichain, how the Uniswap API is unlocking new use cases, and what’s needed to bring institutional capital and new users on-chain.TIMESTAMPS:(0:00) - Why DeFi is here to stay (1:02) - MC’s journey from BlackRock to Uniswap (6:50) - First impressions and joining a 10-person team (9:55) - Why institutions are now entering DeFi (11:05) - What Unichain solves that other L2s don’t (13:30) - The UX problem in crypto (15:55) - Uniswap V4 as a developer platform (16:50) - The power of the new Uniswap API (18:50) - The rise of tokenization and stablecoins (21:00) - Why Uniswap is betting on self-custody (26:00) - How Uniswap thinks about compliance and privacy (34:15) - MC’s mission: making finance universally accessible (42:00) - Final advice: stay aligned with users, ignore price noiseYou can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube. If you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZApple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Follow us on X:  Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: ⁠https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokens⁠Follow us on InstagramTalking Tokens: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/⁠Note that this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views shared by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have a direct or indirect financial interest in content mentioned in this episode.

On today’s Talking Tokens episode, Jacquelyn sat down with Mary Gooneratne, co-founder of Loopscale. Loopscale is a lending protocol on Solana designed to give sophisticated users more control over capital, collateral, and credit risk. They discuss how Mary went from building on Ethereum during DeFi summer to pivoting toward Solana, why the protocol shifted from pool-based lending to order-book-style credit markets, and how Loopscale recovered all user funds after a $5.8 million exploit. Mary breaks down the differences between institutional and retail borrowing behavior, how its fixed yield looping product hit $1 billion in volume, and why she believes DeFi can rebuild global credit markets more transparently than traditional finance.This episode is a part of the Solana Sessions campaign that Token Relations and the Talking Tokens podcast are doing, diving into founders’ journeys and startups building on Solana.TIMESTAMPS:(0:00) - Mary’s background and founding Loopscale (2:24) - From tokenized whiskey casks to crypto credit markets (4:23) - Why lending hasn’t evolved like trading on Solana (6:01) - Pool-based model limitations and capital inefficiency (8:11) - Why Solana was the only viable chain (11:02) - Inside the $5.8M exploit and recovery process (13:08) - Lessons from the hack and security upgrades (17:12) - New risk controls and protocol design changes (20:03) - Who uses Loopscale: LPs, whales, and institutions (21:24) - What products are growing fastest (24:07) - Why idle Solana liquidity is a huge opportunity (25:58) - The future: real-world assets and institutional lending (27:10) - What institutions want from on-chain credit (28:21) - Global credit markets and underserved borrowers (30:13) - What’s next: sponsored credit vaults (30:29) - Final advice: talk often and talk to buildersYou can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube. If you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZApple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Follow us on X:  Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokensFollow us on InstagramTalking Tokens: https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/Note that this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views shared by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have a direct or indirect financial interest in content mentioned in this episode.

On today’s Talking Tokens episode, Jacquelyn sat down with Amir Haleem, CEO and co-founder of Helium. Helium has a decentralized wireless network powered by community-run hotspots that supports IoT devices and mobile coverage. Today, its WiFi network boasts over 93,500 hotspots across the U.S. and Mexico, and the network serves around 1 million daily users. Helium has also secured major partnerships with AT&T, T-Mobile, and Telefónica.They discuss how Amir and Napster’s Shawn Fanning co-founded Helium in 2013, transforming it into a people-powered connectivity model that now rivals traditional telcos in prepaid signups. Amir explains the economics behind hotspot mining and how the Helium Mobile network offloads carrier data with a 555% increase in offloaded traffic last quarter. You’ll also hear why Helium chose to hide the crypto in consumer-facing products, and how its Zero Plan, a free phone plan in the U.S., is built on top of their infrastructure and attracting thousands of new users every day.TIMESTAMPS:You can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube. If you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZApple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Follow us on X:  Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokensFollow us on InstagramTalking Tokens: https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/Note that this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views shared by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have a direct or indirect financial interest in content mentioned in this episode.

Muneeb Ali, founder of Stacks and Princeton PhD, discusses the evolution of Bitcoin as a programmable asset. He shares insights into why Bitcoin's Layer 2 solutions are finally gaining traction, addressing topics like the rising interest in Stacks SBTC and the importance of self-custodial solutions. Muneeb highlights the shift from viewing Bitcoin merely as a store of value to recognizing its potential in decentralized finance. He also explores the future of Bitcoin in institutional adoption and the vital role of humility and continuous learning in the crypto space.