
Law and Chaos
Ignorance of the law is no excuse! That’s true for a traffic stop, and it’s true if you want to participate in whatever’s left of American democracy. If the events since the 2016 election taught us anything, it’s that tuning out is not an option. Legal journalists Liz Dye and Andrew Torrez break down the week’s most important courtroom stories, so you can keep on top of this crazy news cycle. Whether it’s Texas giving two middle fingers to the Supreme Court, or Donald Trump in all the courts at once, we’ve got you covered.
Latest episodes

May 2, 2025 • 53min
Ep 129 — No, We Are Not At War With Venezuela
Well, it’s finally happened. A federal judge has finally ruled that we are not being invaded by Venezuela and so the president can’t just shout “ALIEN ENEMIES ACT” as an excuse to kidnap people and send them to a torture gulag in El Salvador. And it was a Trump appointee who did it! Also, Mike Lindell is somehow still here. Links: Conservative Judge Saves VOA, Savages SCOTUS https://www.lawandchaospod.com/p/conservative-judge-saves-voa-savages J.A.V. v. Trump [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69862833/jav-v-trump ‘Historical loss’: Alleged gang leader evades US justice with deportation to El Salvador https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/24/politics/ms-13-leader-deported-el-salvador-boasberg-order/index.html Madawhi v. Trump [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69888582/mahdawi-v-trump/ Eric Coomer: Pawn Plant or Perp? https://www.scribd.com/document/511804143/1-5019632676605264266 Dominion v. Lindell DC Docket (Judge Nichols) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59670901/us-dominion-inc-v-my-pillow-inc/ Coomer v. Lindell Colorado Docket https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cod.215068/ Redline of “draft” versus final opposition filed in Colorado https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cod.215068/gov.uscourts.cod.215068.311.2_1.pdf Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod

5 snips
Apr 29, 2025 • 56min
Ep 128 — Trump Plan Impress Judges By Perpwalking One Of Their Colleagues Backfires Bigly
Judges across the country are calling BS on the Trump administration’s lies in court. But the government has come up with a genius plan to impress the judiciary by perpwalking a Wisconsin judge out of her own courthouse. If that doesn’t work, they’ll try contaminated milk. Links: STRENGTHENING AND UNLEASHING AMERICA’S LAW ENFORCEMENT TO PURSUE CRIMINALS AND PROTECT INNOCENT CITIZENS https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/04/strengthening-and-unleashing-americas-law-enforcement-to-pursue-criminals-and-protect-innocent-citizens/ State of NY v. Department of Education [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69944116/state-of-new-york-v-department-of-education/ American Bar Association v. DOJ [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69934429/american-bar-association-v-us-department-of-justice/ NTEU v. Vought [DDC docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69624423/national-treasury-employees-union-v-vought/? NTEU v. Vought [DC Cir docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69821739/national-treasury-employees-union-v-russell-vought/ Trump Administration Previews Genius New Legal Strategy https://www.lawandchaospod.com/p/trump-admin-previes-genius-new-legal US v. Dugan docket (E.D. Wisc.) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69943130/united-states-v-dugan/ Russell W. Currier and John A. Widness, A Brief History of Milk Hygiene and Its Impact on Infant Mortality from 1875 to 1925 and Implications for Today: A Review, Journal of Food Protection (Oct. 2018) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0362028X22087610 Could changes at the FDA call the kosher status of milk into question? Many are asking. Jerusalem Post, April 25, 2025 https://www.jpost.com/food-recipes/article-851470 Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod

Apr 25, 2025 • 1h 1min
Ep 127 — You get a TRO! And you get a TRO! Everyone gets a TRO!
After burning down its credibility with every judge in the country, the Trump administration finds itself slapped with injunctions in every courtroom. Coincidence? Plus, the Department of Homeland Security discovers one weird trick to get around court orders barring deportations. And it is … to stand back and let the Defense Department do it for them! Links: MTA v. Duffy (NY Congestion Pricing) [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69652290/metropolitan-transportation-authority-v-duffy House Dems Demand Letters to Vichy Bar https://min.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/min.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/04.24.25-letters-to-law-firms-on-trump-administration-agreements-all.pdf SDNY resignation letter https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/04/22/nyregion/prosecutor-letter.html City and County of San Francisco v. Donald J. Trump [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69623767/city-and-county-of-san-francisco-v-donald-j-trump/ Abramowitz v. Lake [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69791808/abramowitz-v-lake/ J.A.V. v. Trump [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69862833/jav-v-trump/ D.V.D. v. Homeland Security (Notice of Removal to Third Country) [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69775896/dvd-v-us-department-of-homeland-security/ Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod

Apr 22, 2025 • 55min
Ep 126 — SCOTUS Decides Maybe There Is Something In The Constitution About Due Process After All
The Trump administration spent the weekend trying hard to rendition immigrants to foreign gulags. But Supreme Court took some baby steps this weekend toward maybe possibly doing their damn jobs and ensuring that the rule of law survives. And in the biggest surprise since the stock market dropping like a rock on news of crippling tariffs on China, Pete Hegseth is texting war plans AGAIN. And for subscribers, Harvard University sues the Trump administration. Links: D.V.D. v. Homeland Security (Notice of Removal to Third Country) [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69775896/dvd-v-us-department-of-homeland-security/ AFGE, AFL-CIO v. Office of Personnel Management [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69655364/american-federation-of-government-employees-afl-cio-v-united-states/ President and Fellows of Harvard College v. US Department of Health and Human Services https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69921962/president-and-fellows-of-harvard-college-v-us-department-of-health-and/ American Oversight v. Hegseth [Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69788832/american-oversight-v-hegseth/ A.A.R.P. (W.M.M.) v. Trump [SCOTUS Docket] https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/24a1007.html W.M.M. (A.A.R.P.) v. Trump [Trial Docket via Court Listener] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69898198/wmm-v-donald-j-trump/ A.A.R.P. (W.M.M.) v. Trump [Fifth Circuit Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69913684/aarp-v-trump/ Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod

Apr 18, 2025 • 59min
Ep 125 — Trial Judges Stand Up As SCOTUS Cowers
Chief Justice Roberts and the howler monkeys rolled over and played dead. But lower court judges understand the assignment, including Fourth Circuit Judge Harvie Wilkinson, a conservative icon. He read Trump — and implicitly the Supreme Court — for filth. But will it be enough? Liz and Andrew discuss the latest developments in the Salvadoran rendition cases. Plus, Trump moves to put US taxpayers on the hook for the E. Jean Carroll verdict. Links: Abrego Garcia v. Noem [District Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/abrego-garcia-v-noem/ Abrego Garcia v. Noem [Fourth Circuit Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69902650/kilmar-abrego-garcia-v-kristi-noem/ Noem v. Abrego Garcia [SCOTUS Docket] https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/24a949.html J.G.G. v. Trump [District Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69741724/jgg-v-trump/ J.G.G. v. Trump [SCOTUS Docket] https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/24a931.html Carroll v. Trump [Second Circuit Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68985738/carroll-v-trump/ Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod

Apr 15, 2025 • 1h
Ep 124 — So Much For SCOTUS’s Brilliant Plan To Head Off That Judicial Crisis
If Chief Justice Roberts thought he was going to protect the judiciary by throwing trial judges under the bus, he was spectacularly mistaken. The case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia is hurtling toward contempt proceedings, with the government in open defiance of the court’s order to un-kidnap him. And meanwhile, Attorney General Pam Bondi is running the Justice Department like an arm of the Trump campaign. And for subscribers: Trump steals lunch from poor kids in Maine because the state’s governor is nice to trans kids in accordance with Maine law. The state is suing, in a test case for the administration’s plan to use tax dollars as a cudgel to force social policy without having to pass laws. Links: AP v. Budowich [DC Circuit Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69869862/associated-press-v-taylor-budowich/ AP v. Budowich [DC District Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69662918/associated-press-v-budowich/ Susman Godfrey LLP v. Trump [Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69881953/susman-godfrey-llp-v-executive-office-of-the-president US v. Smirnov [District Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68254959/united-states-v-smirnov US v. Smirnov [Circuit Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69605315/united-states-of-america-v-smirnov/ US v. Mangione [District Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69486519/united-states-v-mangione/ US v. Villatoro Santos [District Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69804416/united-states-v-villatoro-santos/ Abrego Garcia v. Noem [District Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/abrego-garcia-v-noem/ Maine v. USDA [District Docket] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69853711/state-of-maine-v-united-states-department-of-agriculture/ Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod

Apr 11, 2025 • 49min
Ep 123 — SCOTUS Will Protect Due Process. A Little Bit. If It Has To.
The Supreme Court had two big immigration rulings this week on deportees to the Salvadoran gulag prison: One terrible and one … marginally okay. Meanwhile at the White House, Tariff Man is running amok! Luckily, he extorted hundreds of millions of dollars worth of big firm billable hours to defend the government. But not from Susman Godfrey, the target of his latest wildly illegal executive order. Links: Tech Policy Podcast with Corbin Barthold (Liz and Andrew guest appearance) https://podcast.techfreedom.org/episodes/403-the-constitutional-crisis Abrego Garcia v. Noem (D.Md. docket) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/abrego-garcia-v-noem/ Abrego Garcia (SCOTUS Docket) https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/24a949.html Perkins Coie Docket https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69725919/perkins-coie-llp-v-us-department-of-justice/ J.G.G. v. Trump (SCOTUS docket) https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/24a931.html SCOTUS: Rendition Is Fine Actually https://www.lawandchaospod.com/p/scotus-rendition-is-fine-actually Jenner & Block Docket https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.278932/ J.A.V. v. Trump (S.D. Texas docket) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69862833/jav-v-trump/ G.F.F. v. Trump (S.D.N.Y. docket) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69857769/gff-v-trump/ Susman Godfrey EO https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/04/modernizing-defense-acquisitions-and-spurring-innovation-in-the-defense-industrial-base-5 Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod

Apr 8, 2025 • 1h 5min
Ep 122 — Hang Together or Hang Separately (feat. Ken White)
Liz and Andrew sit down with fellow legal podcaster Ken White, AKA “Popehat,” to discuss the Trump administration’s attack on law firms. Who’s fighting? Who’s folding? And who’s f—ed? Plus an update on the case of the Maryland man deported to a torture prison in El Salvador, and the legal effort to get him home. And for subscribers: The DC Circuit considers if Humphreys Executor is dead, or just mostly dead? Links: Serious Trouble Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serious-trouble/id1630160928 Wilcox docket (DC Cir) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69714705/gwynne-wilcox-v-donald-trump/?filed_after=&filed_before=&entry_gte=&entry_lte=&order_by=desc Abrego Garcia v Noem Docket (4th Cir) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69847836/kilmar-abrego-garcia-v-kristi-noem/ Perkins Coie Docket https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69725919/perkins-coie-llp-v-us-department-of-justice/ Jenner & Block Docket https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.278932/ WilmerHale Docket https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.278933/ Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod

Apr 4, 2025 • 1h 6min
Ep 121 — Trump’s Tariff Math … It’s Dumber Than You Think
Why does the President of the United States not know what tariffs are, why does he want to crash the world economy, and can he do any of it? We answer as many of those questions as we can. Come for phi times epsilon times m sub i, stay for the Trading With the Enemy Act of 1917. Plus! Judge James Boasberg in D.C. is NOT HAPPY the administration flouted his orders and intends to figure out who was responsible and why. Also, things are about to get ugly at the D.C. Circuit. Links: DC Circuit Local Rules https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/sites/cadc/files/rules-RulesFRAP20241212c.pdf Trump Tariff EO https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/04/regulating-imports-with-a-reciprocal-tariff-to-rectify-trade-practices-that-contribute-to-large-and-persistent-annual-united-states-goods-trade-deficits/ Trump Annex I to Tariff EO https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/Annex-I.pdf USTR on how tariffs are calculated https://ustr.gov/issue-areas/reciprocal-tariff-calculations The Economist, “President Trump’s Mindless Tariffs Will Cause Economic Havoc” https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/04/03/president-trumps-mindless-tariffs-will-cause-economic-havoc Forbes, “How Much Would An iPhone Cost If Apple Were Forced to Make it In America?” https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/01/17/how-much-would-an-iphone-cost-if-apple-were-forced-to-make-it-in-america/ Emily Ley Paper Inc. v. Trump https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69842090/emily-ley-paper-inc-v-trump/ Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod

Apr 1, 2025 • 57min
Ep 120 — All The President’s Restraining Orders
Time to round up the latest in lawsuits against the Trump administration. The trans military ban is blocked. Renditioning Venezuelans to El Salvador without due process is blocked. The shutdown of the CFPB is blocked. The shutdown of the US Inst of Peace … not blocked. Yet! Liz and Andrew run down a bunch of the Trump cases and explain why it seems like every day brings another restraining order. (Hint: It’s because Trump wants to do lots of illegal stuff in a hurry.) Links: Name & Shame https://www.lawandchaospod.com/p/name-and-shame Shilling v. Trump Docket https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69617888/shilling-v-trump/ Jenner & Block v. DOJ Docket https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69807126/jenner-block-llp-v-us-department-of-justice/ WilmerHale v. Executive Office of the President Docket https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69807328/wilmer-cutler-pickering-hale-and-dorr-llp-v-executive-office-of-the/ Georgetown students’ letter to Skadden https://bsky.app/profile/heidilifeldman.bsky.social/post/3llon26enmc2o US v. Sanders (5th Cir. 2025) https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/15/15-31114-CR0.pdf Eakin v. Adams County Board of Elections Docket https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/65738841/eakin-v-adams-county-board-of-elections/ J.G.G. v. Trump (D.D.C. - Judge Boasberg - Alien Enemies Act) docket https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69741724/jgg-v-trump/ Trump v. JGG (SCOTUS Docket) https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/24a931.html US Institute for Peace v. Jackson Docket https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69754533/united-states-institute-of-peace-v-jackson/ NTEU v. Vought (DDC docket) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69624423/national-treasury-employees-union-v-vought/? NTEU v. Vought (DC Cir Appeal) https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69821739/national-treasury-employees-union-v-russell-vought/ Show Links: https://www.lawandchaospod.com/ BlueSky: @LawAndChaosPod Threads: @LawAndChaosPod Twitter: @LawAndChaosPod